Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to The History Guy podcast Counterfactuals. What is a
counterfactual in the context of studying history, It is a
kind of analysis where we examined what might have happened
had historical events gone differently as a thought experiment. The
goal is to learn and understand history as it is
by talking about what it could have been as a
(00:27):
twist on the historical stories that we tell on the
History Guy YouTube channel. This is a series of podcasts
that dwell on that eternal question what if. I'm Josh,
a writer for the YouTube channel and son of the
History Guy. If you're a fan of the channel, you
already know Lance the History Guy himself. To liven up
our discussions on what might have happened, we have invited
(00:48):
Brad wagnan history officionado and a longtime friend of The
History Guy to join us. Remember that if you'd like
to support us, you can find us on Patreon, YouTube
and locals dot com. Join us as we discuss what
deserves to be remembered and what might have been. On
today's episode, we tackle a forgotten empire that once ruled
(01:09):
the Red Sea and the Horn of Africa, and that
once ranked with the likes of Persia, China and Rome.
The mighty Axium declined before one thousand and eight. But
what might have happened if it all went a bit differently?
Without further ado, let me introduce the history Guy.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
In the long animals of human history, many empires have
left an indulible mark both in the popular memory and
the historical record, empires like the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire,
the Chinese Dynasties, or the Persian Empire. But for every
empire whose name you recognized, many other great empires rose
and fell and largely faded from popular memory, and yet
(01:52):
in their relative obscurity, there are still important links in
the history of humankind. One such empire was the Kingdom
of Acts, otherwise known as the Empire of Ethiopia, which
flourished at the same time as Rome and Byzantium and
became an important center of trade between those empires and
empires in Indias, for Lanka and the Far East, and
also played an interesting role in the three major monotheistic
(02:15):
religions of the Middle East. The Kingdom of Aksum deserves
to be remembered. The Kingdom of Aksum flourished in the
first century AD to about the seventh century. Its center
was the city of Aksium, located in the highlands of
northern Ethiopia. The kingdom had its roots in the so
called Proto Axumite period beginning about the fourth century BC,
(02:38):
became a force to be reckoned with by the first
century a d. By that time, it was widely known
as an excellent market for ivory, tortoise shells, and rhino horns.
Is recorded in the Greco Roman Periplus of the Erythrian Sea,
a kind of traveler's handbook that covered trading opportunities in
the Red Sea and beyond as far as southwestern India.
The kingdom's earliest years are the subject of some scholarly debate,
(02:59):
but it is known that the kingdom's written language, Gaz,
is a member of the Semitic family of languages, mostly
centered in the Middle East. Other Semitic languages include Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic,
and Akkadian. Gez is no longer a spoken language, but
it is used widely as the liturgical or holy language
of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewhido Church, as well as other
(03:22):
Ethiopian and Eritrean churches. The language may have been brought
over by Southern Arabic people in the eighth century, but
some linguistic evidence suggests Semitic languages were spoken in the
Horn of Africa for millennia. The value of this early
script is significant. The Biblical Book of Enoch survives as
a complete text only in Gez and Ethiopian translations of
the Bible, or among the oldest surviving in the world.
(03:46):
In its early years, the growing well from trade and
its port city of Adulis allowed the kingdom to expand
its influence of a large part of modern Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, Somalia,
and Yemen. The kingdom owes its growth to a shift
in global trade patterns. Ovalin routes to India and other
routes became less popular when traders learned that they could
take advantage of monsoon winds to cross the Arabian Sea
(04:07):
to India. The volume of trade that came through the
Red Sea ballooned and brought enormous wealth and prosperity to
traders along the route. Aksium would become the principal supplier
of African goods to Rome. The kingdom subjugated a number
of tribes in modern day Sombalia and extended some kind
of dominance across the Red Sea over Himyar in modern
day Yemen. Conquered tribes were allowed some autonomy, but were
(04:31):
required to pay tribute to Aksum, often the form of
heads of cattle, according to Aximite inscriptions. As the kingdom
became an empire, the Axemite kings took on the title
of Nagusa Nagast or king of Kings. Whether this reflected
a system of sub kings is not yet clear. By
the mid fourth century, Aksum was at its height. Was
in that century that the kingdom began using the name Ethiopia,
(04:54):
according to inscriptions. It was also in that century that
Aksum played a role in the decline of the once
powerful Kingdom of Kush. Kush was a Nubian kingdom that
had for a time installed pharaohs that ruled over combined
Egyptian Kushite kingdom. By the fourth century, Kush was a
shadow of its former self, and dispute led the Axumite
king Azana to attack and possibly sack the capital of Mero.
(05:16):
The Kingdom of Axum as possibly most famous for its enormous, steely,
large decorated obelis like columns that had been built in
the region for centuries. Hundreds of the monuments around the
city of Axum today in steely fields, many of them
marking the sites of underground burial chambers. The three largest
of these, called the Royal Steely, are the seventy nine
foot tall Azana Steele, the fallen one hundred eight foot
(05:38):
tall Great Steely, and the so called Obelisk of Axum.
The Axomites left a monument at Meroe and built another
at Aksum to document Iszana's victories, including that over the Kushites.
The stone had writing on it in gez Sebian and Greek,
thus representing a rosetta stone for these languages. King Azana
(05:58):
ruled from the three twenties to three fifty six. Azano
was the first Axomite king to embrace Christianity, being converted
some time between three twenty five and three twenty eight.
He advocated for Christianity in his own kingdom, less than
two decades after the Roman emperor Constantine the Great converted.
The conversion of Ethiopia was, according to tradition, the responsibility
of a single man from mensus of Tire. According to
(06:22):
the Roman historian Tyennius Rufinius. As children from Nius and
his brother went with their uncle on a ship to
the Red Sea, where the crew was attacked and killed
by pirates because don't all good stories involve pirates, and
the boys taken captive. They were given to the King
of Axum, Azana's father as slaves, but gained failure with
the king before his death and were freed. Izana's mother
(06:44):
begged them that they stay, as Azana was too young
to rule and she needed help teaching him and managing
the kingdom. When Azana took the throne Fromentius was an
important adviser to the kingdom. Fromentious traveled to Alexandria to
talk to the bishop there, who consecrated him bishop and
from to assist him in Axium's conversion. On his return,
he baptized the king and shortly after founded the original
(07:06):
Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion in Axium, a
rebuilt version of which still stands today. This became the
site where Ethiopian emperors and later Emperors of Abyssinia were crowned.
The Ethiopian Church enjoyed significant autonomy, but did follow the
church in Alexandria to split from the Roman Church following
disagreements after the Council of Chalcedon in four fifty one.
(07:27):
The kingdom began minting its own currency during the reign
of the King in Dubis at the end of the
third century, and continued minting coins for four hundred years.
They were one of the only ancient states in Sub
Saharan Africa to mint their own currency, and one of
only four in the world who were minting gold coins
at the time. Izana began minting coins bearing the Christian Cross,
one of the earliest examples of the symbol on coins.
(07:48):
The relative abundance of Axomite coins indicates that the kingdom
had accessed to large supplies of gold, although it is
uncertain what the kingdom's sources were. Aximite coins are also
notably pure, and the supply of metals was closely control
by the Aximite state. The kingdom's traded influence was great.
Aximite coins have been found as far afield as Indians
Sri Lanka. The next major expansion was under King Caleb
(08:10):
in the sixth century. Caleb was recognized as a Christian
by the Byzantine emperor Justin the First, who sought Caleb's
assistants endending atrosities committed by the Hemriite king against Christians
in modern day Yemen. Caleb defeated and killed the Hemriite king,
and the kingdom remained a tributary under the Aximite general
a Braha and his son Mazruk. Mazruk's brother revolted with
(08:31):
the help of the Sassanid Persian Empire, leading to a
series of wars that were eventually won by the Persians.
Monroe Hay, a modern historian, cites these wars as one
of the factors and the kingdom's collapse thanks to the
worst cost and loss of prestige. The kingdom's decline was
caused by many factors. In addition to strength loss fighting
the Persians, the kingdom may also have been affected by
(08:51):
the Plague of Justinian, probably the first appearance of Barbonic plague,
which killed millions in other parts of the world in
the early seventh century. The growing dominance of the Islamic
Empire in the region isolated the country from other Christian
states and largely into their trading empire. But unlike Christian
europe actionm was not on bad terms with its Islamic neighbors.
Muhammad began preaching publicly in six ten, but the ruling
(09:14):
tribe of Mecca persecuted his followers. In the middle six tens,
Muhammed advised his adherents, including his daughter, to seek refuge
in Aksum, in an episode known as the first Hezra.
The king of Acxium is said to have refused a
Meccan delegation which sought their return. There are different accounts
of the effects of the exile, with some Islamic accounts
suggesting that local Axiemites embraced Islam, while some Ethiopian accounts
(09:37):
instead suggested that some of the exiles converted to Christianity.
Other ancient Christian kingdoms since its Nobatia me Curian Elodia
to the northeast, would eventually become Islamic, but Axium and
its successors remained Christian despite their relationship with Islam. As
earliest six forty, attacks were made at the port of Adulis,
and the kingdom was forced to abandon the city of
(09:58):
Acxium and retreat inland. This marked the end of the
kingdom's trading empire. However, the kingdom remained formidable and continued
to expand south for several centuries. According to Ethiopian tradition,
the kingdom was conquered by a Jewish queen named Judith
in the tenth century, but contemporary scholars doubt whether she
was really Jewish. Still there is evidence of burned churches
(10:18):
and rule by a female usurper in contemporary documents. Another
factor in the kingdom's decline might have been climatological, with
the collapse of the trading empire that was over farming
on the terraced hillsides, which led to an erosion crisis
that cascaded into a food shortage, and the favorable rainy
season seems to become less reliable in the ninth and
tenth centuries. The kingdom collapsed completely by nine sixty, replaced
(10:42):
by the kingdom rule by the local Igawa people called
the Zagwe dynasty, which lasted until twelve seventy. It was
overthrown by Yucunu Mlac, who claimed to be descended from
a survivor of Judas Purge. Additionally, during this new Ethiopian Empire,
the Kebron of Gost or Glory of Kings was compiled
and written, considered to be a reliable historical work by
the Ethiopian Church. The work is a national epic describing
(11:06):
the foantdom of Acxiom, containing the genealogy of the kings
of Aksium and the story of how the Ethiopians stopped
worshiping the Sun and Moon to worship the Lord God
of Israel. The bulk of the work tells the story
of the biblical Queen of Sheba, whom it identifies as
Makeda of Ethiopia. As told in the Bible, she visits
King Solomon in Israel and is impressed by the wealth
(11:26):
and knowledge there. But it then breaks from the biblical
narrative by stating that she and Solomon conceived a child,
the son Menelik, visited his father as an adult, but
refused to remain in Israel, so Solomon sent the firstborn
children of the nation's elders with him to Ethiopia. Upset
with their lot, these stuns stole the ark of the Covenant,
and thanks to divine intervention, escaped Solomon's agents. It weaves
(11:49):
together a narrative that the kings of Aksium and later
Ethiopia were a single line descended from Solomon as far
back as nine hundred BC, and The Ethiopian church still
claims the ark Is in their possession, the Church of
Our Lady Mary of Zion. Modern scholarship on the work
is lacking, but there is a possibly ancient Jewish population
in Ethiopia known as the Beta Israel. Their origin remains uncertain,
(12:10):
and even oral traditions suggests several possibilities. Many of them
have in the modern era immigrated to Israel. In the
nineteen thirties, the Italian invasion of Ethiopia led to Italian
soldiers taking one of the three royal steele, the one
called the Obelisk of Aksium in five pieces, to Rome
as a trophy, where it was erected under the orders
of Benito Mussolini. It was kept there until its repatriation
(12:32):
finally began in two thousand and three. The pieces were
so large that only the Anatov one twenty four Russian
plane could carry it, among other difficulties. It has been
reconstructed and now stands in its original home at Aksum.
The Solomonic dynasty was removed from power in nineteen seventy four,
and today the once great Kingdom of Aksium and its
ruins are spread throughout several modern states. Its name is
(12:54):
barely remembered, its modern influences obscure, but in its time
it was mighty. The Persian philosopher Mani, the founder of Menechiism,
described as one of the four great powers of his time,
with the others being Rome, Persia and China. And of course,
of that list, the Kingdom of Axen was the one
that is far least remembered today, but the important role
that it played in the development of some of the
(13:16):
world's great religions and it's once powerful trading empire give
it a unique role in history that deserves to be remembered.
But there's still so much we don't know, many questions
still unanswered, and the forgotten history of the Kingdom of
Oxen reminds us of the enduring complexity world politics and
how much history there still is out there yet to
be uncovered.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Now for the fun part, where I the History Guy
himself and Brad Wagnan, a longtime friend of the History Guy,
talk about what might have happened if it all went
a little differently. Yep, Okay, So today we are talking
about a forgotten empire and this was one that I
wrote a long time ago, but I thought it was
really really interesting and what drew me to it, and
(13:58):
it's in the intro of this of this video is
this story about how it was ranked with these other
great empires Rome and Persia and China and then accent
and you're like, aksoom exsuum, what's that? And that's I
think that it's really cool for us to have seen
this one. And there are a lot of other different
kinds of these empires and kingdoms that had fairly i mean,
(14:19):
at one point were very powerful, were very significant, and
then they just totally go away. And so I think
it's going to be it took a while.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
It's been around longer than the US has, right, or
it wasn't around longer than the US has had. But
I think it's a great point of discussion because this
this one in terms of you know, caunterfactuals, you get
to ask the question, you know, what if it had
never been there and the question what if it had
gone on longer? And they are both really interesting questions.
And how central that was to the ancient world is
(14:50):
I think a surprise to probably most people in the West. No,
there's I mean, there's still plenty of evidence of the
x might Empire. If you go to Ethiopia, there's still
quite Stela and all sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, they found their coins all over the all over
the ancient world. You know, we think of a lot
about how important that trade between the Indian Ocean and
Europe was during the Middle Ages, but I think it
gets less talk in the you know, when we go
to the ancient era. I mean we said, we tend
to think more about I think like the Silk Road
and such, but spices and gold and ivory, all that
(15:24):
stuff was still coming through that was coming through the
Red Sea for the most part at that period.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah. The path, the path that came overland from India
to Rome carried you know, a tiny fraction of what
was being carried through the sea route.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and it's amazing that it all came to an
end essentially in the it is.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I mean, that's the same thing with the Romans, right,
I mean, who'd have guessed, you know, and or the Persians,
I mean simply not the empire that they once were.
I don't know if you want to say about China,
if you would say that there's the same as seas
as the old Chinese Empire, what but yeah, I mean
these uh, these empires are fantastic, amazing and the time
and they run out of time. And that's a good
lesson of history because you can probably guess, no matter
(16:05):
how important you think you are, that that's only going
to last for some period of time and then it's
going to decline, and you never know if you're there
during the height or during the decline.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah. The thing that I really like about looking into
accent is that, you know, first of all, it's one
that does not appear regularly in you know, in the
common study, if you will, of history, and you know
for most of the Western.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Yeah, especially here in the last I mean, what was
that thing recently that we talked about how often men
think of the Roman Empire each day?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah, that was they're not thinking of accent.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Right's Yeah, how often did they think of the accient
Empire at the same time?
Speaker 4 (16:43):
You know, they might even be thinking about Persia sout right,
But you know, I doubt that they spend nearly as
much time, even though Rome would not have been the
same Rome were it not for accent, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Oh, definitely not. And to the point where it carries
on from what we can that are the Roman Empire
to the Eastern Roman Empire, because the Eastern Roman Empire
held on for quite a bit longer and they did
have major They did have a major interaction with the
Aximite Empire at various stages, sometimes a little fractious, sometimes
(17:17):
very supportive. The other nice thing is is that you know,
now we're looking at the point. You know, we're looking
at a portion of Africa that also is in most
history textbooks. You know, it gets a paragraph or two.
And now finally we're beginning to take seriously that, Hey,
you know, there are other regions of the world, and
there were definitely some empires out there that had a
(17:40):
major impact in their day.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, and that's we've gotten to
talk about those some on the history guy.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
But I said, I mean, you know, what do you
say about the Zulu Kingdom versus you know, the Great
European Nations, but or how powerful really was that. You know,
there's still people that argue that the Malian Empire might
have come to the America, and we're right, we don't
even kind of think of the African empires as empires
because we don't fight nearly as much. Writing and we
(18:08):
really history of Africa in the West or in the
United States really begins with European colonialism, and we kind
of don't really much pay much attention prior to that.
So this is, you know, the idea that you long
before there were civilizations rising in the Americas, Axiom was
the center of the world that connected Europe to Asia.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, and one of the things that that that Bratus
talked about before is this idea of you know, whether
you're a land empire or a naval empire. And I
think you can say of Axiom that they were largely
their power came from the sea, and they were especially
with trade. In this case is that I'm sure they
had naval power, but that you don't really seem to
see lots of battles, you know, of naval battles between them.
(18:52):
But they held onto those ports and they were very
advantageously positioned there to control that trade.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
The fact that the Aximite Empire really gets going when
it gets the major ports along the along the Red Sea,
it's a really good it's a really good indication they
understood the importance of ships and trade. It is a
little concerning or not concerning. It causes me a bit
of consternation, though that's you know, I was unable to
(19:22):
find a picture of anything that looks like an Aximite ship,
So what did they actually look like? We know that
it probably wasn't a buy ring Trirene or any of
the ilk of the of the of the contemporaneous Roman
and Carthaginian to an extent, and Greek ships that were
running around the med which is a totally different oceanic ecosystem.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
I mean, it doesn't seem to describe it as like
a naval power. And of course you can also say
it's a land empire because partly what they're doing is
all the trade goods that were coming from Africa that
we're going to go to the you know, the civilized
world into into and in Rome, that was all coming
through Axiom. Of course, that comes from land, but to
an extent, just like a I mean, it's that they
(20:07):
were a crossroads of trade and there were cities that
became very powerful that didn't necessarily have large armies or
large navies. And so you're right, I don't don't know
even in the research in this if we saw how
powerful and the Axiom White fleet was, it was that
Accium was a spot where people had to take stuff
in order for it to make its next waypoint. And
you know, you can become quite important and powerful doing that.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I mean, they must have had some kind of you know,
some kind of military. Well, I mean, we know they
had a ground military, but they must have had some
kind of navy. But it doesn't seem like we know
a whole lot about them. There's you know, there's some commons,
so maybe they were similar to what the Egyptians used
on the Red Sea. And I mean those are ships
that are unlikely to have survived, and they're fairly you know, wooden,
fairly small. They use papyrus as for woven papyrus for
(20:54):
like ropes and stuff. I'm not sure, but I'm not
sure I've seen anything that really describes what they what
they were like, and the texts, even though they you know,
they came up with their own scripts, which is one
of the unique things about the axe Might Empire. We
don't seem to have a whole lot of their texts,
and there's some periods in there where we have almost nothing,
(21:16):
like we seem to not have a good idea even
of when these great Stone churches were built there. You know,
those are still guesses because we don't have good, good
texts on them.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
So it's this powerful empire and there's a lot, a
lot we really don't know, I mean, but certainly they
were also an empire, and that they you know, they
took territory and they conquered territory, and then there's you know,
we have some understanding of how they handled their conquered territories,
and we know that they were eventually invaded. So I mean,
I don't know if he would say this is a
land empire or sea empire. You could say that it's
a land empire that made its money from the sea.
(21:48):
But I mean you could you could kind of say
the same thing about Rome, right, I mean, they didn't
have to build a boat until a Byzantine boat or
not a visiting boat, a Carthaginian boat washed up on
shore and they're like, oh, let's make more of those, uh.
And so I mean they were, but you but I
mean Rome, I mean, Italy is a peninsula in the Mediterranean.
They made their money from the sea, even though they
you wouldn't say that they were a sea empire.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah, and you know, the trade goods that were coming
through the ax and Mhite Empire. Obviously there were silk
was listed as one of the major items, but there
were also animal hides and ivory and those were probably
you know, obviously there are Indian elephants, but there are
also they probably had ivory.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Yeah, a lot of us coming from Africa. Africa tortoise
shells and righte o' horn, and I mean a lot
of what they were trading and was stuff that was
those are the trade goods of Africa, and they were
just the central piece that touched that into these other
cultures in the Mediterranean and all the way to India
and China.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, there was it was a really interesting mixture of cultures.
I remember reading where it was talking about their coins,
and they would have these coins that would have like
religious symbols from one culture and Greek script and and
all kinds and all just all of these kind of
these different cultures that were all represented on there on
their coins. And it's interesting to see how that all
(23:05):
kind of came together and it shows I mean, I
think it shows how important that region was as an
exus and it makes me wonder if we start talking
about counterfactuals if they weren't there, or if whatever was
there was unable to have, you know, much of a
central power so that it was fractious or causing you know, infighting,
was causing problems and breaks in that trade. You wonder
(23:28):
if that would have inspired someone like Rome, who who
if they didn't rely on it, they certainly enjoyed the
results of that trade, if they would have tried to
invade down there, because of course Rome takes Egypt and
the Levante, but there's I don't think I don't know
much about them moving any further south into you know,
(23:48):
into the like the Sedan or this region. There was
no there was never any talk about them seeming to
do that. But maybe Rome might have felt, you know,
maybe the peace that Axent was able to essentially manage
and you know, keep that those trade goods flowing. As
long as that was true, you know, Rome didn't have
a need to.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I think that that's probably a good way of starting
the discussion. And my guess is that without the ax
and White Empire there is that at that point you
would have a vacuum, and the question is who's going
to fill the vacuum. Certainly Rome would be a top contender,
because they certainly as the one of the major customers
(24:29):
of the Aximit goods. You know, they might have gone
into an area where you know, there's basically disorganized peoples
who are periodically fighting one another and decide that, hey,
you know, it's time for us to get some of
that maritime concrete that were so recently discovered and are
pretty good at building building harbords with, and you know,
(24:51):
start developing.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
It certainly seems like they do and they could have
projected their power that far and just given how far
they did.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Yeah, I mean if you look at because I'm just
looking at maps here and it it's really like Roman
Africa literally kind of stops at the border of action.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I mean that's almost exactly where the line is. So
that might be that they didn't want to militarily take
on action. It's hard to imagine, because the Roman seemed
fine to attack whoever they felt like. But it might
be because they were deriving enough benefit from action that
they didn't have a need to. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
It's also I mean that's it's rough terrain to move.
I mean, you know, there's all there's mountains, there's desert.
I mean, it might it might simply be that that
was the Romans were plenty active in you know the
Middle East, and there's lots of desert and mountains and
stuff in there. But it was it would be a
pretty a pretty good march.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
You know, Action was able to defend its north partly
because it was just terrain that was difficult to cross.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yeah, that's true. That continued to be true. I mean
that that's true throughout Accim's history up and up until
of course that they start to decline when they lose
the coastline. But there's a reason why a core of
this of this culture continued to survive in the mountains,
and that was partially because it just was very difficult.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, they were.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
And once you have a powerful culture, it could even endure,
you know, even if it's loose, losing you know, the
trade and et cetera. But it's such a crossroads. I mean,
it's it's important economically. It's hard to say that that
China and Persia and Rome would have been the same
without this economic nexus. And it's also important culturally because
(26:30):
that's it's important culture between them. So if the Romans
went into Axiom, would they be getting the same sort
of trade from Syria and India and China that Axium
as its own empire, did. I mean, that's it's a
difficult question. So it's it's kind of hard to pin
down exactly. I mean, I so far I figured out
how to put big Foot in the picture, but it's
kind of hard to But except to say that, it's
(26:52):
clear that these empires that they're talking about were impacted
by the cultures of the other empires, and they grew
ye on money that came from trade. And if you
lose this nexus in the center, they would be different.
You know, they would not have shared cultural the way
they did. Rome might not have had nearly enough money
(27:13):
as much money as it had, and if Rome is
expanding where Axium is, that means that Rome is not
expanding somewhere else, right, And without the money that's coming
from Axium, you know, maybe Rome wouldn't have been nearly
as large as making it all the way to Britannia.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
And things like that.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
So it's kind of hard to say, oh, this is
exactly what's different, except to say that it was different.
I mean, they would they would significantly be different because
these were cultures because of sharing that grew these cultures,
and this was the point where the sharing occurred. So
you found you didn't find a lot of Romans making
it all the way to India.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
No, you know, And that's that's why it's partially incredible
how these trade routes worked. And I think we've I'm
constantly surprised when you look into that that even ancient,
ancient trade routes. I mean, man, they were moving stuff
a long way and it's essentially I mean it's a
long game of of relay. Is that they this comes here,
and then that's sold to this guy who sells it
(28:04):
to that guy who sells it all the way all
the way across you know, huge, I mean the whole world.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
I mean it was that was true in the Americas too.
They found trade.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Goods that had gone just enormous distances and that wasn't
one guy and a horse who went that whole distance.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, it's it's incredible how that was traded across and
you're you're you're talking distances that would have would have
been boggling. I mean, I don't think that most people
in Rome had no real idea of how far away
China was, and yet they might have actually had goods
that began.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
Yeah, I mean what if Rome was receiving a tenth
the sound that they that they received historically?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I mean how different is Rome?
Speaker 1 (28:42):
It impacts culture, It impacts you know, all the all
of the various markets and businesses and everything that was
staying alive from that trade. Right, that's all that either
goes somewhere else or it doesn't exist.
Speaker 4 (28:54):
And the indication is that a significant amount of Roman
trade was coming through Accent, So absent Axiom, if Rome
doesn't have that money, is Rome? Rome is the Roman
Empire anything that we expect it to be, because that
was purchased that empire. I mean you can't even the Romans,
who could, you know, pull after Cannae could just raise
(29:14):
up another army out of the ground. Even the Romans
had to pay those guys, They had to equip those guys.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
So you know, if if there hadn't been Axiom, would
Rome have taken Axim's place? If Rome had taken Axim's place,
would the trade have been the same? Those are I mean,
those are kind of That's that's why we do counterfactuals, right,
But I mean, certainly without the trade coming through Axim,
Rome and the Commedied Empire, the Persian Empire, and the
(29:40):
Chinese Empire would be would be different. And there was
a lot of Roman influence in India too. I mean
one of the positions might be that Indian culture, which
really starts to you know, change quite a lot with
this trade. That what would have happened if Indian culture
had continued along its path rather than start to become
you know, because then they started getting you know, eventually
Buzzlim influence and from the North and Chinese influence, of
(30:02):
Roman influence, all that sort of stuff. I mean, how
different would India be if it hadn't suddenly started getting
these impacts from these other cultures? And would it be
more powerful or less powerful? And you know how different
would it look?
Speaker 3 (30:16):
Yeah, an ancient India that starts picking up what we
would call Western institutions today is a radically different India
than what it is currently because the Western exposure occurred
at a different place in time, at a different cultural
So of.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Rome, you know, if Rome controls acient, does that mean
there's a stronger Roman influence going that other direction? On
the other hands, does it does it impact that trade
because Rome is going to you know, have different rules
about how that trade is pressed, and Rome is not
going to have the ability to trade with the interior
the way that the Aximites did. Yeah, and that's you know,
(30:54):
that's all. That's all really interesting. It's difficult, of course
for us to make any any like firm final comments
on how that would change things, but we might be
looking at a profoundly different world today. And certainly, you know,
when you when we start talking about Sub Saharan Africa,
this is an area that was until until a much
(31:16):
more modern point, not all that connected to Europe, and
accent really represents one of these these connections that I
think were if not tenuous, but were uncommon. It was
difficult for ships to move south of the equator, and
it was otherwise trade coming across the Sahara. There was
(31:37):
there was a limit to how much trade you could
move that direction to the you know, the coasts in
Morocco and Algeria, and that's that's it's interesting how that
might have changed if there was a Roman presence, you know,
that far south. But it's it's interesting to think that
that that we could have had more influence because if
there was a stronger influence of Rome there. I mean,
(31:58):
maybe there's still you know, that Roman trade is going
to travel to parts of Africa that it never reached
in actual history, and that's that's that's difficult to to quantify,
but it's a really interesting conversation.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
A what if scenario that would be very interesting would
be if Rome decides that in this area that there
is no Axim Empire, that they're going to move in
and be the big brother. They land, they form city states, colonies,
begin the Romanization of the Horn of Africa. What happens
(32:35):
to the horn? You know, how how different is the
role of the Horn and Horn of Africa in in
a more Western facing.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's a good question if they were tightly connected to
because you know, Roman culture is so vastly affected Western culture, architecture, law, science,
even religion, right, and so if that if that was
more Romanized, you know, what would it mean? I don't know.
I mean, you find that in some in North Africa
where that you were, you know, Roman Africa was yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, you wonder too. I mean, that's a Ethiopia as
as in some form continue. I mean, you can argue
that the Empire of Ethiopia that comes, you know, in
the Middle Ages has has some very direct descendants from
the Ximin Empire. If if Rome gets some kind of
presence there, you could imagine something like like what happened
(33:26):
with these Roman rump states in the Fall of Rome,
like we talked about the King of Rome, Syragius. Syragius
in France, is like, maybe some kind of Romanized culture
survives there and then as you know, rediscovered centuries later,
and you have you have something that's I mean, that
would have been remarkable. And of course Europe was obsessed
(33:48):
with a cut with that concept, with this idea of
oppressed or John and some some Christian nation that had
been surrounded and had survived through from antiquity, and in
some ways the Opia is something of a Prestor John situation.
It's not what the Europeans imagined it to be. But
you know, this was a Christian power that existed for
(34:09):
much of its existence, surrounded by by non Christian powers
and eventually by what you know what Christianity considered in
the Middle Ages to be their greatest foe, which was
these Muslim pawers.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Though it was also it was a center of slavery too,
of slave trade, and that had that's impact on culture too.
But yeah, I mean it being such a crossroads, you know,
gave it that position, I mean, had it meaningful.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
Yeah, the potential of say Roman influence one of the
you know, reading through some of the some of the
historical episodes in the ax of m Empire where they
are talking about conquering this area they conquered two cities
of stone and three cities of wood, does seem to
(35:00):
indicate that that the structures of the area was certainly
not based on you know, stone cutting technology primarily. Now,
that is not to say they did not have they
obviously they had the Staly and the remnants of the
royal Palace from the Aximite Empire is certainly an engineering feat.
(35:20):
But I do think that it is a little more
I don't know if pastoral is the is the correct
I mean, they are a little more rural empire. It
definitely did not have.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
The urbanization and their ability to make these terraced gardens
and stuff like that. I mean, I don't know that
Acima had anything like a Roman aqueduct, but I mean
they were able to engage agriculture in absolutely amazing ways.
But yeah, it's true. So I mean, clearly it's it's
not a Roman rop state. It doesn't look like Rome.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
And I guess this is there's a questions say, you know,
what if it had looked more like Rome, But I
mean it's not to say that it was a less
developed empire then Rome. When you look at what they
were really doing, it's and you know, when we talk
about there not being an Axin, there's on the on
the flip side of that, you know, talking about what
if Axin was more powerful, or if some had survival,
(36:15):
or you know, if Axim as it was at its height,
had survived. I think a lot of it comes down
to when they conquered Yemen, when they're fighting with the
Hemurite Empire or well the Heymright Kingdom, and then later
with various Persian and I saw some interesting stuff about
that because I saw one that literally blamed Justinian and
(36:36):
then essentially because after after the Axamite governor in Himiyar
decides to be decides to be his own power, and
you know, he's like breaking breaking free and being independent.
There's an overthrow. It's kind of complex. One of them's overthrown.
The guy who's overthrown goes to find support and he
finds support with the Persians instead of with the Byzantines,
and that ends up leaving you know, Yemen in the
(36:58):
power of the Persians and eventually in the power of
the Muslim kingdoms that come afterward. And it's interesting to
think that that that that difference. If Yemen had instead gone,
if the Byzantines have been able to support them, that,
you know, that would have meant Byzantine support there and
at the very least for Axim that would have been
the same, that would have been the same religion. And
(37:19):
so it could Axim have held on to him, you are,
it's it's kind of you know, it's both a symptom
and a sign of their of their power and how
it was, how it was waxing and waning that they
were able to capture it, but they were unable to
hold it. And then you know, after he declares independence,
we don't really see any power from within the rest
of Axam being able to retake it. That that seems
(37:41):
to be part of the part of the issues that
they were unable to project their power across the across
the It's such a very small distance there right at the.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
What if if they had remained connected to the Byzantine
Empire across that period. I mean, so when you look
at that, how profound this stcal impact that could have been.
It might have been that Islamic religion dies a young death.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, and it does ever spread and spread it does? Yeah,
you know, is held into the Middle East or forced
to push east instead of west because you know, they
eventually they conquer Egypt, they and all the all the
way to Spain. But if they're if they're held, if
they're held.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Especially in the very earliest days, if they're if they
are faced with a Christian wall that goes all the
way across you know, between Byzantium and Axiom. Yeah, don't
you don't get that, You don't get the caliphates, so
you get very much different caliphates. Right. How much of
later European medieval history is driven by the fact that
the Islamization of the of the Middle East and the
(38:43):
Crusades in the Holy Land and all that sort of
vigument What if that? What if it? What if that
always remained in Christian hands? And what does that mean
to both the Islamic religion and the Jewish religion.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah, the acts might Empire during the conflict that you're
referring to, josh is they do make a play for
South Yeman and but they're defeated. That in a way
is one of the tipping points, if you will, And
that I think is probably where you can argue that
the Axemite Empire is really beginning to show its show
(39:15):
its weakness. And you know, within another century or two,
when they lose all of the coasts of the Red Sea,
then on then that empire is you know, we start
looking at the definite decline of it. But yeah, if
the Southern Arabian Peninsula is not an easy, easy conquest
for the Muslim powers during that rapid expansion during the
(39:38):
seventh eighth, the ninth centuries, tremendous, tremendous impacts. You know
what if you know what if there is not in
Islamic uh referring back to our Battle of Tours episode,
you know what if Spain doesn't fall because you know, the.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
As a conquest, yeah, it never makes it never makes
it quest North Africa. Well, and they're also a counter
to the Persians, I mean the person empower. That's really
the first big challenge with with axiom right, and you know,
you know what if they controlled the you know, the
growth of the Persian Empire, what does that mean for
the Greeks as both to the Romans and so, I mean,
they were it wasn't just some facilitating trade between these empires.
(40:21):
They were also counters to some of these empires, and
that would later on have large impacts on you know,
the future on history across and of course.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
As with all empires, many of their struggles were internal.
But I do wonder if particular leaders would have been
able to manage them in a way that that might
have made that difference. And because if they've been able
to hold onto that coast, because that's absolutely right, Once
they lose the coast, that's that's the end of the
axim Empire as it was. You know that once they've
(40:52):
lost that trade, it's it's a it's a very different kingdom.
You you do try to try to piece that together.
If they're able to hold on to that coastline and
they can continue, you know, dealing in that trade. Of course, eventually,
if the Muslim Empire closes across Egypt and cuts the
other end of the Red Sea off, I mean, maybe
(41:12):
that was going to be extremely negative for Axim or
maybe you know, Axim would have been able to trade
with those Muslim empires, just the way they'd been trading
with the powers that were there before. Certainly, Axim seems
to have been able to manage I mean, they had
plenty of their own wars, but they were managing some
peace there that I think a lot of European nations
(41:33):
would have, you know, kingdoms, would have considered impossible. They also,
i mean they're known for this this first early in
the Muslim I mean very early, while Muhammad was still alive,
actually sheltering some early Muslim adherents who had been being
persecuted in the Middle East. And they also have I
mean there was like a local Jewish population that had
(41:55):
been there for a very long time. It's there are
really interesting kind of mixing pops of all these various
religions and cultures, and and of course they have this
ancient Christian Church that i was completely separated from from
Europe for centuries. Essentially, you know, they were connected to
the Coptic Church in Egypt, but eventually even that, you know,
(42:18):
the Coptics are their own kind of thing, and by
the time of the Middle the you know, the Middle
Ages and the Crusades. Even even the Crusaders weren't quite
sure what to do with the Coptic Christians.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
And the Ethiopian Christians are even have even additional complexity
because they were so insulated for so long. One of
the things that running across in research was that apparently
there are eighty eight books to the Ethiopian Bible, so
pre Council the Nicea, you know more or less about
eighty ish books to the Bible post sixty six and
(42:54):
those that's that's the standard Western Christian Bible, whereas the
eighty eight books of the Ethiopian Bible contained quite a
bit of different material. And so you can say that
the accent might empire even though they do ultimately fall,
because they've adopted Christianity, because they have built the Christian churches,
(43:20):
and they keep that tradition going even through the rise
of Islam. They are an outpost of Christianity that never
really that never really stops in the Middle Ages.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
And of course they do claim to have the ark
of the Covenant through a kind of a remarkable story.
I'm I'm not sure. I'm not going to really comment
on the whether I think it's a valid story or not.
But they don't let you see if they have the
ark of the Covenant, that's.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
The and that's that's not to protect it from you,
it's to protect you from it, I think.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I mean, there's just like one priest that's allowed to
see it or or there's a very small number in
the when when he like when he dies, he has
to choose who's going to protect it from from then on.
You know, they have like apprentices. It's I mean, it's
really interesting to that that's a connection. That's and you
know they have they did take it out, they take
it out, but they cover it.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
So I mean, but so yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
And they claim to they claim to be descended straight
from Solomon, So I mean, it's it's but it's also
I mean they're not.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Part of the.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Reason, I think is because you know, they never they
were separate from the whole period of recognizing the Catholic
Church and you know, this whole kind of establishments of
what you would call orthodoxy.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
If the actually the empire lasts longer, is more powerful,
does that change the center of gravity in the Christian Church?
Speaker 2 (44:41):
What would that look like?
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Because there was a whole battle between when I think
we sometimes take it for granted a little bit today
that you know, Rome is the center of the Catholic Church.
That was not certain, and there were always churches, all
of these churches that were founded by other apostles, these
churches that had disagreements with over a doctrine, all this
stuff that thought. I mean, that's that's why there are
(45:03):
these these Eastern Orthodox churches, and not just you know,
the Russian and the Greek, those Orthodox, but but ones
like the Coptic, the Syrian Church, the Armenian Church, the
Ethiopian Church. These Ethiopia was in a position where essentially
they just didn't have some of that influence. And I
mean that could mean, of course, extremely dramatic things, because
(45:24):
it could mean differences in how we interpret interprets the
Bible and other doctrines and stuff like that. It also
could have really impacted, you know, how what parts of
the world are Christian and not Christian. Of course, that's
had such a huge impact on how the world has
has moved since, you know, since five hundred a d.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, in an alternate timeline where the acts Ofmite Empire
last pass Ay ten ninety six, what if okay, drawing
a blank here the name of the pope who declared
the first crusade.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Oh Josh, I just had that in an episode too.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
Anyway, if into ninety six the rallying cry is not
free Jerusalem, but banished the infidel of the evil Ethiopian
heretical Ethiopian Church, do we get a first crusade that
ends up heading down towards the Red Sea.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I mean, maybe that's possible.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
They see the.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
Stranger things have happened.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Well, and then certainly, I mean, the Catholic Church fought
multiple crusades against other Christians, and in fact, you could
say that their crusades against other Christians were actually much
more impactful and effective than the ones that they fought
against the Muslims.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
Oh yeah, yeah, it is a yeah. History is replete
with you know, Paulgrams as well. You know, let's go
get the Heretics, the Albicauscinians.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
The Northern the Northern European crusades, you know, and Thetics.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
That was urban the second, by the way, the first Crusade.
But that's right urban. But I mean it's interesting that
you say that because a lot of the programs of
the Middle Ages were driven because of the black death
of the bubonic plague and that somehow ends up being
you know, blamed on on on Jews, on Judaism. But
one of the reasons that the Accual Empire collapsed was
(47:19):
that it might have been one of the first places
where the bubonic plague broke out. And you know, plague
plays a significant role, possibly the plague of Justinian two,
which were not I mean that might have just been
in Fluenza. We don't know for sure what that was.
But so that that makes an interesting connection between the two.
And when you were talk about could the ac Empire
have have gone on longer, been more powerful than certainly
(47:41):
absent that you know, that impact than they might have.
And you know, if they if if if the Aximite
survive a bubonic plague and then come out of it
with some sort of resistance to the bazon bubonic plague,
then you know, do they do they end up facing
programs like the you know, like the Jews did, but
I mean them bobonic plague. You know, maybe we do
(48:01):
have a much longer live more powerful acts might empire
that you know carries on into the you know, into
the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3 (48:08):
Certainly, Yeah, I would say the acts of My Empire
was probably actually I wouldn't say resistant to the eubonic plague,
but because they don't have the level of urbanization and
population density that the Roman Empire and then later the
medieval cities and towns have, it's possible that you would
(48:29):
get less of a less of a catastrophic, deadly and
debilitating disease. But you know, the effects might not have
been quite so pronounced in a country that was still
primarily trade or primarily getting it swell through trade, but
really was largely a rural kingdom that relied very heavily
(48:54):
on its population to grow crops.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Which makes interesting history because if they weren't as powerfully impacted,
would they have been more powerful? Or like we were saying,
there's there's points during the Middle Ages where not dying
of the plaguement that everybody felt they had to kill
you because you were responsible for us.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Yeah, it looks like the research in terms of if
and how the plague impacted Sub Saharan Africa's is still
still in process. I didn't read anything about, you know,
how it might have impacted at that point. I guess
it would have been the probably the Empire of Ethiopia
or you know, the later one. And you know, when
(49:30):
we talk about the Crusades, it's interesting too to think
of if those Crusades had been more impacted by Axim,
and if Axin was in a better position to you know,
to assist the Europeans, and you know, would they there
was some shared culture there. It seems like they there
were some connections between between various members of the Crusade,
(49:54):
of the various Crusades and people, you know, the Coptic
Church and the and the Ethiopian Church, and there were
of course there were constantly at pilgrims from those countries
going to Jerusalem. There was a there's a thing that
when Saladein conquered reconquered Jerusalem, he invited Ethiopian scholars back
to Jerusalem. There is not a lot of evidence that
(50:17):
that Ethiopia was ever interested in, you know, getting involved
in that conflict. And you could see maybe from their
point of view that they're thinking, you know, Europe isn't
really the people who were on the crusade, their lands
weren't threatened, whereas Ethiopia is thinking, if we get too
involved in the Crusade, the Muslims might come actually attack us.
(50:38):
They live right over there.
Speaker 4 (50:39):
It was essentially it was the rise of Islam that
caused the decline of Axium, right, So I mean they
were there were a smart quordrock conflict. But I mean,
and you know the way that alliances were made at
the time. If Vacium had been a military power during
the Crusades, it's a good question, I mean, because probably
what would have happened is that, you know, sometimes they
were and sometimes they weren't.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Well, I mean, if you have if.
Speaker 4 (51:00):
You had a whole separate Christian crusade that was coming
from the South at the same time, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
That challenge is certainly that would have.
Speaker 4 (51:07):
Been which it certainly would have made the crusade times
more interesting. But I mean, you know, the crusaders from
two Crusader states next to each other couldn't get along.
So I mean it's yes, I I you know, I
saw someone talking about that and they said, you know,
we talked about the Crusades as like as like a
monolithic thing, or the Crusaders as a monolithic thing, and
that's probably not a particularly good way to talk. They
(51:27):
were at each other's throats quite a lot, yeah, and
sometimes which is sometimes aligning with Islamic forces, you know,
against each other. Yeah, what well, I mean you have
to say a big reason part of why Jerusalem fowls
because these guys could never agree with each other.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Really what happened.
Speaker 4 (51:43):
I mean, the uh Tripoli was was not really helping
with the crusade at the time, and I mean that
you know, that was the battle that really kind of
shifted things.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
And because the loss of Jerusalem, right, So.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Would it have been any difference if there was, you know,
a larger axe in my presence, it seems like maybe
that just adds one more one more party.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
It depends.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
It depends how that player is. But I mean if
you have where action is, then maybe you never get
the Fatimid empire, right, I mean, because that's right there.
Speaker 2 (52:13):
So yeah, having another large Christian player that had some
interest in the Holy Land, clearly it would have shipped
things up a bit, right.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yeah, It's it's difficult to know. Well, And of course
at that point we're kind of how Aksom would have
survived and what kind of kingdom or empire or polity
action would have been. Is is you know a little
up to up to question, because how the way the
way it survived probably would have would have impacted that,
and clearly their survival they were managing it. They still
(52:48):
conquered lots of new territories and fought this way and
thought that way, and did various things. But they were
managing something of a balancing act between these various powers,
because it was I mean, while any I mean the
Christian nations fought all the time, various Muslim powers fought
all the time. You know, that's that's the caliphate splits
and stuff like that. So it was, but it was
(53:10):
certainly possible to you know, unite them against you, at
least long enough for them to come Crushia. You could
argue that, I mean up until up until that, you know,
the deposition of the last the last king of the
empire or the Emperor of Ethiopia in the nineteen seventies,
that there that there was I mean a fairly direct.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Line descendant of the of the Acim Empire.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
Yeah, he at least he at least claimed although it's
it's I don't know if the if the if the
leaders of the Empire of Ethiopia that comes you know,
in the Middle Ages, if they were actually connected to
the dynasty of Axim, or whether that was as as
with many many places, if that was just acclaimed, you know,
for legitimate.
Speaker 4 (53:50):
The Latin Church and the Crusaders were very different than
the Romans, even though they would claim descendant of the
Romans too. So yeah, it would be a different Aximate
empire if they had contained then that's that's again it's
an interesting question, I mean, because because really the competition
was between the Aximites and the and the growing power
of Islam. And so if if in that trade, if
(54:11):
it was axim who rose instead of Islam, then that
truly changes.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
The Middle East.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
I mean, if if Faizlam never becomes the power that
it became, if you never have the large caliphates, if
you never have you know, the trade cities that provide
the money and all that sort of stuff, then that
is a very different Middle East, which makes a very
different Europe, and a very different North Africa and a
different you know Middle East all the way into India.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
That's it's easy to imagine, you know, an Aximite power
expanding in that time because because when you know, as
the Persians fall and I mean and just absolutely transforms
that that whole that whole region. I mean, you could
you could see a few history where where that was
Axim that filled that instead of or Or and you know,
(54:54):
I mean maybe that would mean that we would have incredible,
you know, incredibly different connections between you know, the Middle East,
and it's influenced from the Horn of Africa, whereas essentially,
I mean, once the Muslim powers, you know, take over
all of North Africa and stuff. Fact that I mean trade,
the trade that was coming through since the time of
Rome through the Red Sea, I mean it's altered significantly.
(55:15):
And that's I mean, that's part of when that the
Silk Road becomes actually a more important trade route is
because I mean a lot of the stuff that was
coming from India through the Red Sea, know, it just
doesn't come that direction anymore, doesn't make it make it
all the way to Europe, or it has to travel
at least through Muslim nations before it does, and that
alters everything.
Speaker 3 (55:32):
Yeah, Another possible counterfactual here is, you know, if axum
survives a little longer, if they're just a wee bit stronger,
you know. In a PostScript to the Axumite Empire, Ethiopia
is not conquered lock stock and barrel by the Muslims.
So there was a significant period where they were able
(55:54):
to coexist. So what if a powerful axiom to my
empire is able to maintain relatively good relations and you know,
adding you know, adding yet more consternation to the to
the to the Catholic Church, UH says, no, we're Christians,
(56:16):
and we are perfectly happy to trade with the Muslims.
In fact, we've just signed a new deal where we're
going to send trade uh, trade delegations to India again.
Speaker 1 (56:25):
And and maybe you actually have a you you have
a more peaceful future where instead of instead of instead
of the crusades, you know, you have you have some
kind of trading trade deals and agreements, and we don't gosh, imagine,
imagine how the world might look if if some of
that you know, that that his history of combats and
(56:47):
anger and and all of this stuff and hatred honestly
that is that is bred from all these these conflicts.
I mean, we might be looking at a very different
world if if that's built instead of on this idea
of these mutual agreements and working together to trade.
Speaker 3 (57:02):
Yeah, and you know with UH, with the way that
the Islamic expansion occurred, basically not quite overnight, but in
an extremely short period of time all of North Africa
falls is h It is a really quite a quite
a quick transformation.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
It is interesting to think of an Aximite Egypt or
even an Aximite North Africa. You know, there's I mean,
empires certainly of that size have existed. I mean it's
not it's not beyond the realm of possibility, you know.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
And again, different culture, different finances means that different empires
could have risen in Poland, I mean because they got
their wealth coming that way. And so yeah, it's it's
a radical transformation that makes you wonder then how would
how would it be different? I'm in Illinois, right brather
in South Dakota and josh is and Wyoming. How different
would our life be? How different would our culture be
(57:57):
if the action of my empire had you know, transformed
the way that Rome developed, or the way that Persia developed,
or the way that the Islamic religion developed, or the
connection between China and in Europe. I mean rapidly.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
If we're talking, you know, it's still still ancient history
when Asim fell, but instead of in you know, in
the seventh century, it's we're talking about the Golden age
of Acxim in the in the Middle Ages. I mean
that would have been a very different.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Could could have very much radically. I mean the Roman culture,
the Roman Empire very much changed Western history and still
impacting Western history today. And we know that Axim was
very much impacting Rome. So a different power, you know,
a more powerful action or a non existent Acxim means
a different Rome, which means a different you know, European culture,
which means a different culture comes to the Americas.
Speaker 3 (58:42):
Yeah, and so now we have to work in something
really modern, and Josh alluded to it earlier. But the
way that the the last king of kings of Ethiopia,
whose original name was Rostafar hence Rostafarians, creates and almost
messionic movement in Jamaica and other parts of the Caribbean,
(59:06):
there is an interesting, if you will, kind of an
echo of how Axum and the Ethiopian and the various
incarnations of Ethiopia and Ethiopian empires have a direct impact.
And we can actually look back and see that Hey,
wait a second, this is this is as recent as
(59:27):
the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2 (59:28):
So you're saying a world of reggae music.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
No no, no reggae, but Rastafarianism is actually quite a
bit more than just the music. Yes, of course, and
the fact is probably worthy of an episode, but that
that that that will lead to another, to another episode.
We haven't worked Bigfoot into. That's question. Where is you know,
(59:54):
there are mountainous regions in southern Egypt and the high
lands of Ethiopia. In fact, didn't the Acim Empire have
to go and conquer an area that was described as
mountains in which there was snow year round?
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
There?
Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
There has to be I tried.
Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
I tried to look into into Bigfoot, into like, you know,
what kind of a big foot like creature was was
in the region. And what I really learned is that
there's a they have various I mean, there are various
kinds of mythical creatures in all parts of Africa that
could kind of reach it. But I mean partially you know,
they had great apes, yeah, throughout larger close enough that
(01:00:33):
they necessary.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
They find an ape like creature in Africa, well, impact.
Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Sheer is a gorilla and so it's it is a
little harder to work them in because you couldn't it
was harder to find something that was it was like
like a kind of a direct analogue to to what
we consider to be Bigfoot. They they have the you know,
their myths are different, which I guess makes sense, but
it is a little sad to get this far and
(01:01:02):
be like, well, how did work.
Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
But it's called the it's called the Kola Kamba, that is,
and it's supposedly a hybrid of an ape and a chimpanzee.
But that some of the drawings kind of big footish.
That's true, and you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Know, maybe they're they're very involved in the Aximite Empire.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
I mean, if if if actually starts importing Kula kambas
in large numbers, could they have defeated the could they
have held you know, Yemen? Right, because you're.
Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
A Kulakamba detachment of the Royal Axemens Imperial Guard.
Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
One charger bunk of chimp. Gorillas can really change.
Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Well, I'll tell you what I wouldn't if I There's
been this debate online recently about whether you could whether
about people thinking they could fight a gorilla and win,
and I wouldn't be a man to.
Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
The people the people saying yes.
Speaker 5 (01:01:59):
No answer is no. The longer answer is that it's
well I mean it depends. I mean, obviously, if you
have a firearm, Yeah, that might be a fist. You
can't you can't get away from me. He's faster than you,
and he's very very much stronger than you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Yeah, yeah, in the level of absurdity, Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Yeah, but I mean because the chimpanzee is smaller than
a gorilla, but a Kola kamba, I mean, would that
be more powerful than a gorilla?
Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
I mean, assuming he has the same muscle density as
a chip chimp, which can literally pick up a cheetah
and swing against a tree with enough force to end
the cheetah. I'm not Yeah, that's all I got.
Speaker 4 (01:02:47):
If you have something that if you have something that
size pro muscle density of a chimp, uh, and you
know that's that's uh, that might be able to be
a gorilla in a fair fight. I don't if you're
if you're a zoologist, then go ahead and chime in
there on the power of the Kola kamba and that
if if the Aximites could have harnessed the Kola kamba
(01:03:09):
as a fighting force.
Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
How how different that might have changed history. That is
a it's a very important question, that's really important question.
That's the most important question we've asked so far. You know,
had there been lockednest monsters in the Red Sea, then
the Aximites might never have risen, you know, their ships
would be What was that?
Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
What was that that whale that terrorized for a while
and I mean literally almost cut almost cut turkey.
Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
And a half.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Yeah, that they think was one single whale that was
just just real mad at everything and that was a
really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
Uh kept sinking chips in the boss so that they
couldn't get across.
Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
Yeah, they literally, they literally became so dangerous that people
were afraid to leave the go into the water. And
they think it was just one really angry whale, which
is a a that's interesting to think about. Well, well, well,
if there was one whale in the Red Sea or
one big you know, sea creature in the Red Sea
that just wanted to ruin things one day, I mean, man,
they could have they apparently could have really impacted.
Speaker 3 (01:04:11):
History that suddenly picked up a taste for silk cloth
or spices.
Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
And yeah, he's knocking all the ships down.
Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
Was in fact the door dash for one whale.
Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the History
Guy podcast. We Hope you enjoyed this episode of counterfactual history,
and if you did, you can find lots more history
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Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
Active don't become a madly in