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March 25, 2025 63 mins
On today’s episode, we visit one of the most significant maritime accidents of the middle ages, when William Adelin, grandson of William the Conqueror and the only legitimate male heir to the throne of England, was killed with the sinking of the White Ship in 1120. His death would have dramatic consequences for the European continent and English history. But what if it had all gone differently?
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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to The History Guy podcast Counterfactuals. What is a
counterfactual in the context of studying history. It is a
kind of analysis where we examined what might have happened
had historical events gone differently as a thought experiment. The
goal is to learn and understand history as it is
by talking about what it could have been as a

(00:27):
twist on the historical stories that we tell on the
History Guy YouTube channel. This is a series of podcasts
that dwell on that eternal question what if. I'm Josh,
a writer for the YouTube channel and son of the
History Guy. If you're a fan of the channel, you
already know Lance the History Guy himself. To liven up
our discussions on what might have happened, we have invited

(00:48):
Brad wagnan history officionado and a longtime friend of The
History Guy, to join us. Remember that if you'd like
to support us, you can find us on Patreon, YouTube
andlocals dot com. Join us as we discuss what deserves
to be remembered and what might have been. On today's episode,
we visit one of the most significant maritime accidents of

(01:09):
the Middle Ages, when William Adeline, grandson of William the
conqueror and the only legitimate male heir to the throne
of England was killed with the sinking of the White
Ship in eleven twenty. His death would have dramatic consequences
for the European continent and English history. But what if
it had all gone differently? Without further ado, let me

(01:30):
introduce the history guy. In ten sixty six, the entire
history of England pivoted upon the successful invasion of Duke
William of Normandy, whom we now call William the Conqueror.
But the politics of power are complex, and after his
death his realm fell into instabilities. His sons fought over

(01:52):
their father's kingdom, and just as it seemed as if
that realm would find peace instability once again, united under
a single king, another event in eleven twenty brought instability again,
years of instability that would give rise to the House Plantagenet,
which would rule England until fourteen eighty five. It was

(02:12):
a disaster that reverberates throughout history, one of those moments
upon which history turns. The tragedy of the White Ship
is history that deserves to be remembered. After his victory
at the Battle of Hastings, William spent years completing the
Norman conquest of England and fighting both on the continent
and in England against foes both foreign and domestic. He

(02:36):
faced revolts by the recently conquered raids by the Danes,
opposition from the French king and the would be English
king Edgar Etheling. William the Conqueror died in ten eighty
seven while on campaign in France, the age of fifty nine.
William had three surviving sons at his death. The eldest
was Robert, followed by William the Second and the youngest Henry.

(02:56):
The practice of giving the kingdom only to the eldest
son was not well entrenched at the time, and William
followed an earlier tradition that split the kingdom between his heirs.
Robert received the lands that William had gotten from his
own father, Normandy. William the Second, thus so called William Rufus,
received the newly conquered kingdom of England. Henry received money
in some of his mother's holdings in England, but us

(03:18):
still can happen today. Immediately the heir started fighting over
their father's inheritance. Both Robert and William the Second immediately
started preparing for war against each other, each seeking to
claim the other's part of their father's kingdom. Henry, youngest
of the three, was caught in the middle. He initially
stayed in Normandy with Robert, likely because Robert extorted him
by threatening to withhold the monetary part of his inheritance.

(03:40):
Taking advantage of the situation, William the second seized the
holdings meant for Henry In England. Henry supported Robert with
money in exchange for becoming a count, but Robert didn't
trust Henry and soon had him arrested. Convinced Mi, an
adviser who thought Henry was conspiring with William, he was
released but did not receive the countship back. When William
helped instigator abearll by a noble in Normandy in ten ninety,

(04:02):
Henry supported Robert and was Henry's forces that won the
day he had the rebellious noble killed by tossing him
off a castle. Henry gained significant fame for his actions
in the battle, which only made Robert jealous. Henry payment
for protecting his realm. Robert banished Henry from Normandy, most
likely because Robert filled Henry was becoming too popular, but
possibly because Henry pressed his brother to give him back

(04:24):
his title of count. In ten ninety one, William Rufus
invaded Normandy with an army large enough to convince Robert
to give up his claim on the English throne. Instead,
both vowed to support each other's claims to their own
lands and named each other as heirs, specifically leaving Henry
out of the secession of either country. Both of the
brothers then turned on Henry, taking control of his lands

(04:44):
in Normandy, but politics in the High Middle Ages were
never static, and William and Robert started fighting again. This
time Henry sided with William, who supported Henry and taking
his lands back to weaken Robert. Henry became a fixture
William's court and even campaigned together. Robert then decided to
go to the Holy Land and participate in the First
Crusade in ten ninety six, but by then he was

(05:07):
so impoverished from all the fighting that it was forced
to mortgage his duchy to William to afford joining the crusade.
On August second, eleven hundred, William was hunting when he
was killed by an arrow. While William had many enemies
and some particularly Henry, had much to gain from his death.
Most chroniclers at the time excepted that it was a
simple hunting accident. Though conspiracy theories have abounded in the

(05:29):
century since his death, his trains have generally discredited those theories,
as injury or death during a hunt was fairly common. Still,
Henry would benefit significantly from that errant arrow. Henry moved
quickly to seize his brother's throne, occupying Winchester Castle and
taking control of the royal treasury. He was crowned three
days later. Robert was still returning from his crusade and

(05:52):
was in no place to press his own claim. Henry
announced that he would correct many of his brother's unpopular policies,
specifically William's treatment of the clergy and abuses of baron's
property rights, to help secure his power. He also married
Matilda of Scotland, daughter of the late King Malcolm the
Third of Scotland and descended to the West Saxon Kings
and Alfred the Great. Henry and Matilda had two children,

(06:14):
a son named William Adeline and a daughter who they
also named Matilda. In addition, Henry, now King Henry the First,
had a number of illegitimate children with various mistresses. When
Robert returned, he tried to press his claim to the
English throne, but Henry had consolidated power by that Henry
easily beat back an invasion by Robert in eleven oh one,

(06:35):
and then Henry invaded Normandy and eleven o six defeated
Robert the Battle of Tinchbray and Robert was captured. While
he didn't take the title of Duke for several years,
he held Robert as a prisoner and a minister Normandy,
effectively controlling all of his father's former kingdom. The decades
of war between the siblings following the death of William
the Conqueror seemed to come to an end at last.

(06:57):
Although he seemed the least likely of the three, it
was Henry who outlasted his brothers and consolidated his father's
lands under a single ruler, and these lands that had
seen so many years of war finally saw the prospect
for peace and stability. Henry's rule is generally considered effective,
as he maneuvered politically to strengthen his friendships and eliminate
troublesome bearons, eventually reconstructing the government to more fully rely

(07:20):
on himself. As king, problems remained as other forces, such
as the French king Louis the sixth, threatened over control
of the Norman duchy, as did another Norman neighbor, Folk,
Count of Banjou, but the political adept Henry won Folk's
support by promising to have his son William Adeline, married
Folk's daughter, yet another Matilda. Henry continued to squabble with

(07:40):
Louis the sixth until they reached an agreement in eleven
twenty in which Louis accepted William Adelin as the rightful
heir to the Duchy of Normandy in exchange for William
Adeline's homage for the French crown. Finally, everything seemed to
be going Henry's way. His kingdom was largely secure and
no one had risen against him in England. In years
he had humbled or allied with the major powers running Normandy,

(08:02):
and his heir, at seventeen, was already helping to rule
England with the assistance of advisers, who was even called
Rex Designatus or king designate, despite being called by one
chronicler a prince so pampered that it would be destined
to be food for the fire. He seemed to be
meeting Henry's expectations. We know relatively little about Adeline, but

(08:22):
he seemed to have been the center of a relatively
hard parting group of young nobles, as might be expected
from a teenage heir. He married Matilda of van Jou
in eleven nineteen. In eleven twenty, Henry and William Adelaine
were sailing from France to England from the port of Barfleur.
Barflour was Henry's favorite place to sail from France to
return to England and offered a fairly safe, easy trip

(08:44):
of ten to twelve hours. In Barfloura, King Henry was
approached by a captain, Thomas Fitzstephen, the son of a
man who had been captain of the flagship of William
the Conquer's ten sixty six invasion fleet. Thomas was the
owner of a large ship called the White Ship, and
to have the honor of taking Henry across the channel
to England, but Henry had already made other arrangements, though

(09:06):
he did consent to allow Thomas and his ship to
take William Adlin across, along with a large number of
other nobles, including several of Henry's illegitimate children. One chronicler quoted, Henry,
your request meets my approval. I have indeed chosen a
fine ship for myself and will not change it by
entrust to you my sons William and Richard, whom I
love as my own life, and many nobles of my realm.

(09:28):
Henry left early that evening, expecting Adeline and the White
ship to follow shortly after. According to the contemporary chronicler
Orderic vitalis hard partying, William supplied the nobles and the
crew of the ship with a considerable amount of wine
prior to their departure, perhaps sensing disaster. Several members of
the party chose not to sail, saying that they found
the ship overcrowded with riotous and headstrong youths. Others left

(09:52):
the ship as they were ill, or because they were
concerned about overcrowding, including one of William's cousins, Stephen of Blaw.
Ship was described as a square sailed timber longboat. She
was recently refitted and one of the fastest and most
modern ships in the fleet. The party may have delayed
leaving because they were confident the fast ship would bring
them quickly to English shores by Tellus claims that by

(10:13):
the time they left, the ship was carrying some three
hundred passengers in addition to the air. One of the
most powerful earls was aboard as well, the Earl of
Chester and many of his associates. At least seven chroniclers
recorded what happened next. Chronicker William of Malmsbury describes a
group of priests arriving to bless the ship come and
practice at the time, but they were chased off by

(10:35):
the drunk revelers. He goes on to say that the
crew began bragging that could overtake the King's ship, and
the passengers egged them on. A large crowd togathered to
watch the ship leave sometime a little before midnight. Drunk
and proud, the ship took off in the middle of
the night, swifter than the wing darrow, sweeping the rippling
surface of the deep and straight into a rock just offshore.

(10:57):
The ship was struck on the shallow rocks and the
tempting to free at using hooks, But as soon as
the ship began to break away, so went the ship's hull,
and it immediately began to sink. The crowd on the
beach heard a cry go out, though there was little
they could do, and most assumed it was merely the
sound of the party on board. On the chilly November night,
the passengers had little chance of survival. Dressed in thick,
heavy clothing, drunk, very few of them would have known

(11:19):
how to swim. Even in good conditions. The cold would
likely have struck the struggling lords and ladies with cold
water shock, which can cause immediate and involuntary inhalation, filling
the lungs with water. It also constrict the body's blood
vessels and makes it difficult to coordinate muscles. Most of
the unfortunate victims would have died quickly, but there was
at least a single row boat aboard, and bodyguards quickly

(11:40):
found the air and deposited him inside. He and a
very small number of people may have escaped, except that
William heard the cry of one of his half siblings
on board began shouting at him about how awful it
would be to leave his sister to die. William ordered
the ship to return for her, and between the water
and the struggling passengers, the little boat was overturned. William, bodyguards,
and his sister all drowned. Twelfth century historian Henry of

(12:04):
Huntington wrote that William, instead of ascending a lofty throne,
found his grave at the bottom of the sea. According
to Vitalis, the captain was still alive when he learned
that William had drowned, and instead of facing the king,
chose to allow himself to drown as well. By Tellus
wrote that the passengers and crew raised cries of distress,
but their mouths were soon stopped by the swelling waves,

(12:25):
and all perished together. We only know about the details
of what happened after the crash because a single man survived.
Accordinated by Tallis, he was a butcher from Ruen called Barold.
He clung to wreckage all night and was eventually rescued.
The news spread quickly, but no one wanted to tell
Henry the king was rare and that he had recognized
a number of his illegitimate children, and along with William,

(12:46):
two of them had also died in the wreck. When
the news finally did reach Henry, he was overcome. So
sudden was the shock, soevere his anguish that he instantly
fell to the ground, but began raised up by his friends.
He was conducted to his chamber and gave free course
to the bitterness of his grief. The sorrowful king mourned
for his sons, the flower of his nobility and his
principal barons. His son's deaths may have inspired Henry's construction

(13:10):
of Reading Abbey, in its time, one of the largest
royal monasteries in Europe. Everything that Henry began to fall apart.
He had no heir, and his wife had died several
years earlier with William dad The alliance with folkvon Jou disintegrated,
although his daughter in law remained at his court for
many years. The peace with King Louis also died with
the heir, and Henry was again embroiled in conflict and

(13:30):
desperate for a solution to succession. He married a second
time in eleven twenty one, but by the time of
his death in eleven thirty five failed to produce another heir.
In eleven twenty five, Henry, the fifth Holy Roman Emperor
and husband to Henry's other legitimate child, Matilda, died. Henry
bought the empress home and declared her his heir, forcing
his barons to pledge so aligiance to her. Matilda was

(13:53):
married to Jeoffrey folkevon Jou's oldest son. Henry's attempts to
salvage the situation, however, were all for naught. When he
died in eleven thirty five, many of his parents stood
immediately to Stephen A Bois, another grandson of William the Conqueror,
who had so nearly died in the sinking of the
White Ship, crowned King Stephen. The next years were a
long string of conflicts for most of two decades between

(14:14):
Matilda and Stephen in the civil war called the Anarchy.
Many chroniclers spake ill of William Adeline, discovering him as
spoiled or insufficient religious, or generally bad tempered, but the
truth of those stories is difficult to determine because it
was common practice at the time for chroniclers to think
of excuses for why God would allow something like the

(14:34):
tragedy of the sinking of the White Ship. Some conspiracy
theories have risen in the nine hundred years or so
since the ship sank, but generally historians discount ideas that
the ship might have been deliberately sabotaged, mostly because there's
no good way that the ship could have been sunk
deliberately without the saboteurs themselves being killed. Regardless, the sinking
was a pivotal moment that would direct the course of

(14:55):
English history. Eventually, after our bloody eighteen years of war
over the throne, Matilda and Jeffrey's son, Henry the Second
became king, beginning the rule of the House of Anjou
over England in the beginning of the Plantagenet dynasty. Henry
the First was one of the most effective rulers of
his time, but despite all his careful preparations for the future,

(15:16):
history dashed his hopes upon rocks just off the coast
of France. In twenty twenty one, divers found some wreckage
near those rocks that appeared to be those of the
White Ship. The chronicler William of Malmsbury wrote, no ship
that ever sailed did England such disaster. Now for the

(15:37):
fun part, where I the history guy himself and longtime
friend of the history guy Brad Wagman discuss what might
have happened if it had all gone a little differently.
So we are talking today about a single disaster, and
in some ways just one ship, you could call it
small scale, but what it ended up costing and the

(15:58):
changes that it ended up causing, or anything but small scale.
And I think this is a really interesting place to
talk about what could have happened, because this seems like
an absolute freak accident that happened to take out an
important person at an important moment.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
And this is a very good example of a counterfactional.
Though I think at the start you have to say,
you know, this might have not meant anything in that
we're talking the twelfth century, right, So William's boat could
have gotten there, finally got off and died of dysentery
the next day, not the only way he could have
kicked off. If he died without air, then you know
it was his sister's son that eventually became the king,

(16:35):
so that you know, we might have ended up on
the same path anyway without So there's you know, there's
reasons to say we don't we don't necessarily know what
would have happened, but I certainly on face, you know,
the loss of the only legitimate heir to the throne,
which we really never found another straight legitimate heir to
the throne ends up being a radical difference, or making

(16:57):
at least potentially a very radical difference in the history
of Ing with all the stuff that you kind of
think you know about England, whether that's Richard Lionheart or
the War of the Roses or the Tutors or anything
that all comes after this. And I mean it was
all a different line and the hundred years were and
so I mean that's this, This comes early enough in
English history that pretty much most of what you've seen

(17:18):
on you know, the BBC in a dramatized series comes
after this, and you know, potentially with a whole different
royal family.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Yeah, definitely. And you know, just with the sheer amount
of development that was taking place during this period, it
looked as if Henry the First was actually getting ready
to put together a stable, long term, you know, potentially
multi generational dynasty that would have been active and flowering

(17:51):
at a time when what we consider to be France
today was just totally fractious and was in no way,
shape or form taking shape into what we would call
in modern day France. Instead, it was a lot of regions,

(18:11):
the Burgundians, the Avi Indians, and a whole lot of
other regional areas which I'm sure I will mispronounce badly
because my friends so.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
The premise there is it's possible that England ends up
conquering France and those end up remaining a single kingdom,
And you know what would that mean into you know,
the later centuries.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, and even there's a lot.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
In that yeah impact.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, even if you know France continues, you know, eventually
you get the Capetian dynasty and they eventually get it
together and are able to challenge the English. How much
longer does England Normandy hold out it? Does it hold
out into the fifteenth century?

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah? Or because because because Henry the second Mary's eleanor
of Aquitaine, that begins the whole claim that the English
make to the throne of France and the one hundred
years of war and all of that. So is it
possible if you remained with the Norman dynasty that they,
you know, remain a vassal of France and hang on
to Normandy and that there's always a cross channel kingdom

(19:22):
there England in Normandy. So I mean, there's all sorts
of frillwys that could work out. But because to some
extent it decreases the English claim to France because a
lot of that was made through Hery the second, but
some extents it maintains a claim there because you know,
the Normans had a very strong claim to Normandy. So

(19:44):
I mean, it could completely change the whole geography of Europe.
And if it did if England, if England and Normandy
were one kingdom and remained one kingdom, I mean, you know,
how would that have changed things as we rolled into
the into the twentieth century and the wars of the
twentieth century, or or at least all the wars between
England and France and the sixteenth seventeenth, eighteenth century and

(20:04):
the wars of Austrian Secession and all that that came
as a result of the territory that they had.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, this is a this is an incredible period that
you know, the the the anarchy as they called it.
That is a heavily debated term, if that's if it's
an appropriate term. But this was a term where or
you know, a period of history where the English could
have been stabilizing it. Instead we had, you know, complete destabilization.
They essentially had to deal with each other and each

(20:31):
other only for I mean decades, and.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
How much of that was inevitable? I mean, because you
get the you get the Hundred Years War, you get
the barons wars, and then that will eventually turn into
the War of the Roses. And does I mean all that,
all of those civil wars come out of just this
dynasty that follows after this. So I mean, and that's
an interesting question, is it that you know, chaos was
just going to reign no matter who was king, or

(20:55):
it was this where the chaos started and led us
into these you know, years and years is constant civil
war because obviously Henry's sons then under eleanor Richard and
John are always rebelling against him. You had all that
civil war and that falls into Baron's wars, and then
the king loses power with John and the magnet cart
and all that. That's all following this dynasty.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
So had the Norman dynasty hung on, or at least
had had William become king and been a good enough
king to continue to stabilize power and had he had
a legitimate air, I mean, would you know, would there
still have been all this violence because that's just kind
of what it did in the twelfth and thirteenth century,
or or would have been a stable England at a

(21:36):
time when unstable other countries in Europe could have been
a huge difference in the power structure. Yeah, there was.
You know, there had not been a peaceful transfer of
power since William the conqueror his sons. Every time someone died,
there was a fight over it. And so would this
have been the first time that they didn't fight or
or you know, was was it doomed to be a

(21:58):
fight anyway? Which comes to another question, and that is
that the fight that did come one of the primary
people on that at that fight, because it was a
fight between Steven and Matilda and Stephen was supposed to
be on the boat. So I mean, were it not
for Stephen having a tummy ache, then how much would
that have changed? I mean, he had their other claimants,
and he had brothers and all sorts of stuff. But

(22:20):
what if one of the two, the guy that actually
became the next king, Stephen, what if he died on
the boat too, I mean, how much would that have
changed events? Yeah, you know, he was at the right place.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yeah, And I also think that without Stephen, I do
think that there's at least a small chance that maybe
Matilda is able, with the lack of a really solid claimant,
to become the first Queen of England.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Yeah, I mean Stephen happened to be well placed. I
think it's possible of Henry and that allowed him, you know,
to be in a position where he could take Now,
of course you have to you have to suspect a
little bit when there's this disaster and the air dies
and this other guy that is a claimant to the
throne just happened to not hop on a boat that day,
and there have always been some rumors that there was

(23:11):
some sort of you know plot involved in the sinking
of the White Chip.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
You know.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
Also, yeah, if the oops.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
I didn't get on the boat. No, the other guy died. Yeah,
claim to be king. Now that's quite a quite a story.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Well, yeah, there's actually there's a couple of interesting potential
dark ops moments if you will. You know, Henry's father,
of course, dies in a hunting accident, which is not
unheard of. Hunting at that time was not exactly what

(23:47):
we think of it, as you know, six guys in
the pickup truck, drinking beer, finding the deer in the
cornfield and you know, bring me home dinner. It really
is a riding through the underbrush trying to make sure
you don't get knocked off your horse. It's certainly not
a it's not necessarily a safe and pleasant adventure. It

(24:09):
is certainly certainly there's a lot more going on during
hunting at this time. And yeah, the fact that you know,
people are taking shots at noise in the underbrush, Yeah,
you know that's.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Well and that being suspicious. It takes us if you
want to say, oh, you know, had the boat not sunk,
then William would have solidified power and been a great king.
Or had Stephen gone down with the boat, then Matilda
might have taken power, but a great queen. Or is
it that you know these you were just never going
to have peace around that kind of power. You know,
there was always going to be a hunting accident waiting

(24:43):
to happen. So it is I mean because now, in
terms of a revisionist history for a long time that
that you know, the idea was that these this was
just a terrible, terrible violent time. And the kind of
revisionist idea is to say, well, not really any more
than everything else, you know, to say that, you know,
maybe it wasn't an anarchy. It was just as violent
as the century before, and as violent as the century after.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
So it does sound like some places were hit harder
than others. You know, there were some areas that that
were fairly devastated by the combat. And it seems like,
though that there were other places that were relatively untouched
in terms of distruct Would there have been destruction, I mean,
would would there always have been some sort of I mean,
you know, if if the ship hadn't sunk, was ste

(25:26):
even at some point going to challenge William, or you know,
was Matilda going to challenge William at some point, or
you know, was there always going to be a fighter? Well,
there were repeated, repeated rebellions throughout this whole thing. Some
of them, some of them were fighting for you know,
we're choosing to fight on one side or the other. Plenty
of them were battling either other local lords and barons

(25:47):
and earls, or you know, the Welsh and the Scottish
were both both interested East Anglia revolts. I mean, there
were just rebellions all over the place. Were these people
all going to do that?

Speaker 2 (25:57):
It is to his struck. It's kind of hard to
tell what was really part of the anarchy, which was
the civil war between Matilda and Stephen because there were
so many other revolts going on that might have been
you know, unrelated to that, or might have been you know,
just kind of drawn into that.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, and they certainly can speak to a part of
the anarchy was that these other people were essentially taking
advantage of the fact that the monarchs couldn't pay attention
to them, so they.

Speaker 3 (26:23):
But yeah, and now you know, you have some fallout
from this during the anarchy, which is significant. And I
think that it really plays back to the to the
quote where the disaster of the single ship sinking was
something that affected England as much as almost any event
in history. First of all, the Welsh, if Henry and

(26:47):
then there and then the transition to his son William
is a relatively smooth one. The Welsh probably do not
take up arms. Secondly, Henry was masterful, I think, in
making sure that by marrying the daughter of the King
of Scotland that he kept things along the northern border

(27:07):
rather quiet. And David, the King of Scotland, does actively
take part in trying to get Matilda onto the throne.
So again if William, if William survives, then that friction
does not occur. And this is at a time when

(27:27):
first of all, you know, there's a little Renaissance going
on during the twelfth century in Europe. Later on you
have quite a bit of trade, you have a lot
of literary development, and then you begin to get the
intellectual fallout of the First Crusade, where the participants in
the Crusades were bringing home a literature, science, and a

(27:52):
lot of a lot of other stuff that was far
easier to pick up and bring home from someone else
than it is to the world.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
So it's just a very dynamic time. That raised an
interesting question too, and that is who might William have married,
you know, had he inherited, and what what would that
have meant?

Speaker 1 (28:14):
Well, he was he was married to Matilda of a
Jew to begin with, right, But but I mean that
doesn't necessarily I mean, people died or divorced their wives
in various ways all the time, but that you know,
so that was still connections. I mean, this is a
good example of how these early English kings were often
more tied to France than they were to England. They

(28:37):
much of what was going on had to do with,
you know, dynastic maneuvering in England, and having Andrew was
always a good idea, and of course ends up being
what happens with Henry the Second and the so called
Angovine Empire is that this was this was powers based
in in in Ajew and so maybe that power would
have you know, maybe they still would have had that

(28:59):
if William William had lived, And that's still deep connections
into France. Not quite as direct as Henry the second,
son of Jeffrey, who was intern son of Folk who
was a king of Jerusalem for a bit. It's it's
an interesting These are all interesting characters who did important things.

(29:21):
I mean, these and jew and Normandy was a big
was a big deal. And so the fact that they
I mean, that's why they were so involved in so
close to the throne of England. So maybe maybe you know,
some of that power base remains no matter what. But
I do, I do really wonder, you know, does William
spend his I mean, does he end up spending all
of his time in and he was he was born

(29:43):
in England, But does he end up spending all of
his time in France anyway and not focusing on English affairs.
It's hard to know. Because he died young, we have
very little information about him. He had performed some regent tasks.
You know, he had done some of that. He had,
but he was only seventeen, right, obviously was a party guy.
I mean, that's probably what happened on the boat. Yeah,

(30:05):
but you never know. I mean, there's lots of kings
who were young and stupid that end up you know,
being decent which administrator, Yeah, yeah, but I.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Mean he might have been allowed to a king. I mean,
we honestly don't know, but I mean the fact that
he was the only heir really certainly does lead to
a civil war in England, which might have been avoidable.
And I mean, at the very least, even if in
the end, you know, Henry the second Stone is up
becoming king after his death, I'm so that, you know,
the best you can say is that we know that

(30:33):
there was violence associated with his death. Presumably you know,
some of that violence, but I might have been replaced
by other kinds of violence as well. But one of
the kind of traditional arguments about the sinking of the
White Ship is that is that what's really led to
a modern England. I mean that that really led to
a distinct English identity, and in England that wasn't an
England ruled from Normandy and you know how much how

(30:56):
much does that change you know, history.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Overall over time. I mean, you know, potentially quite quite
a lot. They might change on whether England is a
is a central power kind of a on the periphery
of a a greater power.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Well, well, you know, whether they were more power than
they ended up being, where they were less power than
they ended up being h or potentially because there's always
a claim, you know that that that the thrones of
England and France ended up together.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, that especial They spent centuries trying to figure that out.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah, I would say that a unified kingdom of France
and England together is probably that That's a bit of
a stretch. I think very seldom do you see two
ethnically different and linguistically different groups like this staying together
for quite that long.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
But if it had remained Norman Norman England, then they
might not have been as ethnically different, might not as
ben as culturally different. But maybe there was there was
a point where essentially you had to make that decision
and whether you were going to be French or English
because of those differences, and so as long as you
were ruling from Normandy. You know, that made it difficult

(32:09):
for you to keep England in line, and so eventually
you had to kind of prioritize either your French lands
or your English ones. And I mean kind of what
ends up happening because of this, they spend so much
time focusing on England, that builds power bases there. It
makes it so that you know, the Angevin kings focus
more on their English holdings. That maybe that does mean

(32:32):
that you know, this is this is an England that
that exists separate from the from the French powers.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
So if the White Ship hadn't sunk, I mean, what's
the consequence if you delay that by one rain potentially
a long rain, or you know, two reigns or you know,
and we honestly don't know what his errors would have
been like either.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
I mean, that's it's no idea on that.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
And because we know, we know what happened with the
with the other line, and there was you know, there
was a lot of a lot of mess in therey.
I mean, Richard who went on crusade has essentially abandoned
them and then impoverished the kingdom when he was captured.
Coming back then he dies, leaves his son, or leaves
his brother John. John is such a weak king that
it ends up essentially destroying the power of the king

(33:17):
and the magnet Carta and all that. So we know
all that follows from this. So I mean, would it
have been a stronger line, you know, through.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Through William and and it's and it's hard to know,
I mean that is that is the But I do think,
you know, I actually think we could say that the
magnet Carta was I mean a direct consequence of of
of essentially of the crisis that happens when only Madeline dies,
because the anarchy causes so much destruction that Henry the

(33:43):
second has to spend all of his time, you know,
trying to regain these powers and essentially having to step
over Liones. And I mean he does that with with
the church because of the powers that the church has gained,
which leads to Thomas Beckett, that Thomas Beckett and so
because he had to, I mean, he had to do
that to centralize, He had to do that to regain

(34:04):
powers that they had that they had simply lost during
that period that eventually, you know, they they they're stepping
over everything so much that that leads to the Baron
saying okay, we have to we have to change this,
and leads to it leads directly to the Magna Carta. Now,
I don't know that that means that without it you
wouldn't have had some version of the Magna Carta, because
I mean there were still problems with the simple facts

(34:25):
that the kings were there. There was no system for
you know, reigning kings and if they were if they
were destroying the kingdom essentially or stepping on the rights
of various various other powerful So because you know, modernization
is going to occur, So would we have had the
Baron's Wars anyway? Yeah, I mean there's a good reason
to think that there was still going to be a

(34:46):
you know, arrestive aristocracy that was going to try to
arrest some power away from the king. But I mean
that could be completely different. I mean that would be
completely different if Richard hadn't died, right, as you know,
as John more or less to say, what if we
going through airs of the of the Norman line as
opposed to the new Plantagenet.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
Line, right, And I do think we also see something
that is distinctly English that leads to this and continues
to have impact, and that is the practice of prime aguniture.
The fact that at no the fact that England is
not able to basically make a peaceful kingdom for itself

(35:27):
simply by allowing all of the heirs to have a
slice of the pie, this has you know, this has
impact that definitely sticks with us until this very day.
So there's a there's a certain amount of stability there
and England stuck to their guns at a particular time
and it was very important. I think it's also important
to point out that during this period that I do

(35:52):
think that you're going to continue to have strife in England.
We at this point in time, you're still only three
generations removed from the wholesale conquering of the Saxonish kingdoms
and people's as well as the Danes up in the

(36:13):
danolog So yeah, the fact that there are rebellions happening
on a fairly regular basis is not unusual. And looking
at France, it's the same way. Various regional powers are
fighting against a central monarch in Louis the sixth, who
basically at this point is he is nowhere near a

(36:36):
French king. He controls you know, the four hundred square
miles around Paris and some other holdings. So yeah, it's
I think that the anarchy to an extent is probably overplayed. However,
it is something that we can at least identify that. Okay,
these two armies were causing heartache and you know, damage,

(36:59):
depth destruction and you know, leaving you know, leaving wastes
in their in their paths, but it was because of
an entifiable cause, and that cause was the succession.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah, the Civil War. Yeah, it's interesting too that there
wasn't more involvement in the Civil War from other powers.
I mean, eventually, I guess it was really ended because
France supported Henry the Second. But I mean it's interesting
if this was not the War of Spanish succession, this
was not the War of Austrian succession, where everybody on
the continent decided they're going to decide who's going to
be the king of this powerful state. I mean, that's

(37:36):
you know, what comes earlier. But I mean England has
plenty of civil wars. I mean, when they continue to
be having civil wars, you know. So here's an interesting
question too, if if Stephen had been on the voter,
if he had died. If if we really come up
with the first queen, if we're able to actually make
that stick, how does that change England? If England accepts

(37:59):
a woman on the throne.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
It's it's an interesting question because it was always hard.
I mean, even you know, I Henry the first, you know,
does this whole thing where he's like, you have to
swear fealty to her? That was always a questionable. I
think even at the time Henry knew that wasn't to
that that was that that hardly secured his kingdom for
for his daughter. But if she, I mean, does it

(38:21):
does it lead to more queens or does she is
she able to you know, is she only able to
continue that power because she relies on saying, oh but
I've got the help of of my husband or my
son will be king next, you know. It's it's I
don't think there was there was a chance of like
a line of queens, because I don't think that Matilda
was going to say, Okay, we're gonna make you know,

(38:42):
my daughter queen after me and not my son. But
it still seems like if Matilda was able to uh
become become queen, you know, solidify her position that that's
got to change. If she's fairly successful, that that would
have some kind of impact on the whole on the
the whole historical view of what a queen.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Because that was a huge deal under the tutors, right,
I mean that that, I mean there was a lot
done because Henry the eighth was desperately trying to have
a male heir. So I wonder if if if you
come to being able to accept a female air, does
that does that, you know, reduce strife later on when
you know those are what your options are.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah, maybe if you if you trust that a woman
could potentially run the kingdom with some success, then then
maybe it's not it has to be a son or nothing.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
Yeah, and Yeah says yeah. There will definitely be periods
in English history where the lack of a male er
if a president had been set with Matilda, and even
if it were some sort of a water down where
she is the you know, where she is a more

(39:53):
or less a powerful regent until said male heir comes
to comes comes of age. Then there are some times
in English history where there were crises. Maybe those crises
wouldn't have occurred. And I think that ultimately the White

(40:13):
ship as well as some of the following crises really
kind of hold England back from being a major power
in European politics until several hundred years later. And I
do think that.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, they do still remain a fairly minor power for
all time.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
If they were able to centralize at this period, that
might have been key for them, because we you know,
you mentioned other powers not getting involved. I mean they
were all very I mean it's not like these powers
didn't exist, but they all also had their you know,
their own issues. I mean, there's a reason France could
only be kind of involved. And I mean we don't
have much involvement from say that the Holy Roman Empire

(40:56):
or the Spanish or anyone you know, further south or
anything like that, but you know, any even anyone that
would have been vaguely close and nearby. And so if
you have an England that is able to you know,
solidify and more modernize decades before that, that might make
a significant difference in how those you know, power centers
for the next invented.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Or caused other wars later on. Yeah, I mean, because
certainly here, because it's when Henry Mary's Eleanor of Aquitaine,
which leads to all sorts of rebellion by her sons.
But I mean that is the claim that England eventually
makes on the throne of France that leads to the
one hundred Years War. And so if we're talking about
preventing the anarchy, I mean, what if you prevent the
hundred Years War and you know how many lives does

(41:41):
that change? How many people that died might have made
a difference, how powerful or different with the power structure
between England and France if they didn't spend one hundred
years fighting you know, that conflict which had a number
of very devastating battles. I mean the anarchy had one
pitched battle, but I mean a hundred years War had dozen.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Yeah, and we're talking a war that absolutely bankrupted both kingdoms,
which took away I mean, it weakened, weakened royal powers,
and it was defining in terms of how history would
would move on from that. And you're right, I mean,
if if you change that, because without if you still
have some power in France with say Normandy and Ajew,

(42:21):
but if you don't have Aquitain and then you don't
have that connection to the throne, that certainly I mean
that certainly makes the hundred one hundred years will look different, right,
That's not that it's not the same claim.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
That was literally the premise upon which the King of
England says, no, I should be King of France. Yeah,
without without that, do they ever do they ever make
that challenge? You know? On the other hand, do they
they maybe hang on to Normandy and still have a
you know, an Anglo Norman kingdom that is, you know,
technically a vassal state of the King of France, or you.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Know, it does seem like eventually that was going to
bring some kind of conflict because even here, you know,
William is Henry doesn't want to give fealty to the
King of France, so he has William become the Duke
of Normandy so that he doesn't have to personally swear
fealty to So, I mean it's clear that there's some

(43:11):
that you know, there was going to be conflicts there.
But does that conflict look like you know, the English
king saying I should also be King of France or
something very very different, just like you know, separating Normandy
from the French crown would be a different thing than
you know, what they claimed in the one hundred years old.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
I think there's also some impact looking at some of
the literary developments. This was one of the rabbit holes
that I followed. I was doing some research on this
just a few years later. Basically about eleven seventy you
have Cretintotois begins writing and putting out his Arthurian Tales,

(43:52):
which leads to a literary trend. So the snational guest again,
I'm pronouncing this horribly. Please be kind to me in
the comments people. Uh uh, the U and what we
consider to be the you know, the modern ar Theian cycle,
so all of the all of the names that we

(44:14):
are used to discussing when it comes to Arthur. So
perst of all, Galahad, I reckon the need these are
these are literary accomplishments that you know, with this author
have decided to write about these particular tales. Uh in
a France that perhaps was less capable, less less successful

(44:39):
from a trade perspective, because Twas really is is very interesting.
It's it really is a center of commerce. The trivial
pursuit point that you can get for that, of course,
is that the Troy ounce is from TWI.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
You know, that's that's it's a good point that the
the Angovine Empire is because because of those huge connections,
is able to stimulate trade, and that that might have
been very different without it. Arthur and all of that,
and how how how that has impacted history, and how
that has felt as if it was itself history.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, the other great set of legends from the UK there,
and that's the robin Hood legends. A matter of fact,
there are some of the some of the early figures
that might be Robinhood start in this period, and of
course those follow into the into the you know, just
two generations later with Richard and John. Yeah, I do
have to say, and I really surch and I can't
really figure out a way that that Bigfoot could have

(45:34):
been involved. Uh. There are legends of course of green
men in in Wales, so if there were bigfoots in
England in this period, they were in Wales wild men
of the of the west. There. I never saw anything
that suggested that the drunken helmsman was large and hairy,
so maybe the butcher, maybe the butcher was I've always
been able to work that in here. I just I
don't know how how Bigfoot really would have impacted the story.

(46:00):
But on the other hand, I mean part of the
you know, part of the long term, and I think
the Telegraph was actually talking about all the long term
possible as that come from this. One of the things
that impacts it because of the you know, the dynasties
that we end up following is is eventual colonization of
the United States, which is which is where presumably where
bigfoots are. So I mean this this could I mean
all of modern history in the West, so much of

(46:23):
that is tied to English history, so much of that
is tied to the dynasty that follows this dynasty, and
so you really can say, well, you know, we don't know,
you know, if America would be the same if the
White Ship hadn't sunk, If Canada would be the same
if the White Ship hadn't sunk, because you know, you
have a whole you know, different line of monarchs who
made a lot of a lot of choices.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Yeah, because every English monarch after Henry that it can
ties to Henry the second, and so you know, you
can you could have changed that line completely. I think
it would be easy to say, for instance, with if
William became king that Elizabeth the second never becomes queen. Yeah,
it's as as far off as it is. I don't
know who would have been, but I think you could.

(47:05):
It would be easy to argue to say that not
the people that well, I mean we can't.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
You can't even you know, you can't follow that line
because William didn't have any air right But yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
I mean, which you assume he would have if you let.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
To kill your story? How the Tutors become monarchs? Uh?
And you know that that all, you know, requires the
War of the Roses. You know that all is directly
derived from what goes on under the White Ship. I mean,
do we do we get all of the you know,
definite strange sets of consequences that lead to the these
you know, significant civil wars in England, the significant war

(47:39):
with France that the War of the Roses end up,
you know, devastating much of the of the aristocracy in England.
And you know transform I mean, the Tutors are an
absolute shift in English history. But I mean those are
they are all descendants of Henry.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
The Second, who might not have been king, if not
if not king crash of the.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
So I mean the White Ship. There there you can
see a lot.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Of different ways.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
But one of the arganais that would consider that the
ramifications and the number of people that died possibly in
the anarchy, you could consider the White Ship to be
a more devastating maritime disaster than the Titanic. You know,
others will simply say this was a tectonic ship shift
in English history, and you know, it's all counterfactuals. I mean,

(48:25):
you know, the implications can be from small to quite large,
because we are talking about the monarch of a great state.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yep, and a state that you know remained great and
that had a large impact.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
And that was clearly at a turning point.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
I mean, this is this is you could really say
modern England begins, you know, the path to modern England
begins with the sinking of the White Ship. And so
the question does become, you know, was some portion of
how England developed in kind of the broad strokes? Was
that inevitable or did it matter? You know what they what,
who was king when they were king, and how they

(49:01):
got to be king. Because if you have to spend
each generation, you know, spending two decades fighting each other
and generally causing chaos, you know, then you can't be
you can't focus on modernizing your state, you still move
forward somehow, And ultimately, Henry the Second, despite the anarchy,

(49:23):
did move the country forward. And so was that because
Henry the Second was Henry the second? Or was that
because England was right right for that at the time?
And that was if as long as you had a
fairly competent king, you know, you would have been able
to do a lot of the same such as Henry
was doing. Or did Henry have to do it because.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Of what's I mean, that's the biggest question when it
comes to counterfactionals and the great man theory and that
sort of thing, is how much of this was the
result of one personality who went down with a boat?
And you can lead you that question what if you know,
what if Hitler had been seventeen and his boat sank? Right,
So how much of this is one personality? What if
that guy had shot him at the end of what
if instead of getting you know, one ball blown off,

(50:05):
it was just like six inches higher and that was that, right?
So it does lead to you know, that interesting question
in terms of the and this is a good example
to say a lot of these events seem to be
just you know, part of the way that the you know,
history was progressing at the time. And then of course
you know that we're going to get some version of
the Baron's War, We're going to get some version of
the Magna Karta, we were going to have some version

(50:27):
of the anarchy no matter who was king, because they
were all shooting at each other forever all that time anywhere,
fighting with each other, So you could argue it doesn't
mean anything, and this is the good example of where
one personality is just overcome by the force of history
or not.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
That's why we do.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
This, right.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah. Now, one of the questions that kind of popped
into my mind when I was looking at some background
on this was does Wales continue to exist if William
was able to take the throne, consolidate power and continue
his father's grandfather's occupation, and you know, ultimately, do the

(51:10):
Welsh cease to exist as a as a linguistic and
linguistic cultural and ethnic group. Do they become totally integrated
into England and suddenly we do not get the street
signs that apparently are four hundred and thirty seven random
characters pronounced in no way, shape or.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
For lots of extra whys in there. Yeah, I mean
that's an interesting question because Henry tried to do that.
I mean, Henry trying to essentially get rid of Welsh
character and make it all just part of England. But
I mean if this happens, you know what six generations
haven generations ahead of that, then you know.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Could it be that we really don't have a Welsh culture?

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Well?

Speaker 1 (51:49):
It did the because the figures in Welsh history who
fought here to keep you know, at least part of
Wales essentially independent throughout this period. They were important figures
that were you know, we're able to be rallied behind
as kind of a cultural point. And if they don't exist,
you know, does that impact and did that allow Welsh

(52:11):
culture to kind of you know, centralize and stay alive
during this?

Speaker 3 (52:15):
And then the other big question is well what what
about the Scots? Because the Scots they're definitely an on again,
off again a source of irritation for the English during this.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
You know, I thought one of the main the amazing
things is during the anarchy, I mean they had control
of all of Northumbria and say, you know this is
this is maybe a point where if they'd been able
to hold on to that that would have been a
very different I guess that's kind of a different counterfactual.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
But you know, relation in Scotland because you know what,
what is a grandson of Henry is Edward Longshanks, right,
the hammer of the Scots is he just I'd have
to go back and looking Count March, but it's not
too far that descendant of Henry the Second, you know,
I actually began the you know, the the large conflict
with the Scotts that eventually ends up essentially in the conquest.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
Yeah, and I can say that at least during this
period after the White Ship and into the anarchy that
the Scotts, I don't think we're going to come into
England if it had been anyone else but Matilda who
had been proposed as the heir to Henry.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
Through that connection, that connection mattered, which.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
Does once again go back and groute that Henry the
First was one of the greatest kings of England.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
I think he was an extremely important one, and I
think it's it's valuable that he had as long a
rule as he did and that it took a I mean,
there's a fifteen year period between when William dies and
when he dies, and you know, the succession crisis happens,
and there are weaker kings who when their heir died

(53:55):
and it became obvious that you know, he wasn't able
to produce another one, that there there are places in
history where that literally meant that his you know, the
king's authority collapses. And the fact that it didn't, I mean,
I think speaks well.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Of the one of the primary jobs you've always had
as a monarch of England is to spit an air.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah, which he was unable to do although we had
so many illegitimate children. I was I was going to
say that to some extent if this was going to
be the peaceful, the first peaceful transition of powers, because
there was only one legitimate air, but there were there
were enough illegitimate airs that that might have always been
an issue. And ultimately, you know, Stevens Stephen's even a

(54:36):
little more removed from that because he's a he's a
nephew instead of an illegitimate air. But certainly there were
lots of other people who could have had some claim
and it wasn't all that clear. We get an idea.
I think a lot of people get an idea in
the modern world that there was always a really obvious
air and that you know, was always going to be
the firstborn son. And we're really in a period where

(54:57):
that wasn't necessarily true, and that there were other people
who had plenty of acclaim that would have been taken
just as seriously.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Well, i mean, look at Henry the First himself. He's
the he was the eighth child.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes he was. He wasn't He was the son of
William the Conqueror, right, so he was still he was
just the youngest of the which all the kings between
William and him were also brothers of various and that's
and that's that causes the issues that there's always and
and that happens again with with John Lackland, right, that's
the eventually enough of his older brothers die or king

(55:36):
and that that he becomes king. And so it's it
was easy for someone who i mean they literally called
him Lackland because they're like, oh, he's not going to
have anything, he's too far down the line, and then
there he popped up. So and that that's essentially what
happens with Henry too, and so that's there was always
and they fought over it, you know, every one of
those brothers fought before they got to that.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Yeah, it's another episode. But the the strange sequence of
events that brought Victoria to the throne are just bizarre.
I mean, the daughter of the dead fifth son.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Yeah, another thought that was occurring to me that, unfortunately,
is probably an episode of its own. But how is
all of this affected by the backdrop of the Crusades?

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Oh very much so, Yeah, very much so. They all
talked about going on crusade. Yeah, of course, Richard, you know,
Richard goes on crusade.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
That also brings up, now a possible counterfactional that's more
focused on the topic that we're covering tonight. What if
William survives somehow, is crowned, becomes King of England, and
then promptly decides that he's going to be like his
distant descendant Richard the Third and go off on crusade.

(56:51):
Is it possible that he gets himself killed or is
it possible that, you know, he comes back with accolades
and honors and thereby cements an even more solid claim
for England too, at the very least the Norman territories.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
What if he what if he actually led a successful
crusade changes changes the rest of the world. Yeah, you know,
a crusade under a good leader at the right time
could still change geography of the world today. Yeah, that
would have been Richard the first though, right, Richard the
Richard the third was.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Oh I'm sorry, yeah, yes, I'm thinking yeah, yeah, Richard.
There I that that that that may actually have been
a relatively accurate trance of pronunciation of French words.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
So no worry that people will complain about your pronunciation
any which way.

Speaker 3 (57:44):
Now, you know, here's another question. Who else was going
to intervene into the affairs of the English succession? And
I cannot think of anyone who's really capable at this point. Obviously,
the king of Denmark less than a hundred years earlier
had put a colony assent on English soil. But after
Stanford Bridge things get awfully quiet in the dayalog.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Well, that's that's a good point. Yeah, well, I mean,
if they didn't take advantage of the anarchy, then you know,
what would they have done? You know? M differently?

Speaker 1 (58:15):
Yeah, yeah, it is interesting that we didn't see any
It's because it's not like it had been all that
long since there was there was intervention there, and it
doesn't seem like there was really any not from what
I looked at, that there was any any real suggestion
that there would have been. And what does that change?
And it's part of it. I mean, as as we've
often talked about with this, it's difficult to know some

(58:37):
of the details. But I think that you know, when
we're talking about counterfactuals, the goal is to see what
you know, what we can what we can suggest from
what we know that did happen. And you know, there's
there certainly was was evidence that there could have been
an intervention there, and you know, why wasn't there. That's
a different question, I suppose.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
But I think that you would also see England. If
England would have been able to get its act together
with the you know, with the with the more or
less peaceful succession, does England decide that well, you know,
there are other parts of Europe that are ripe pickings,
that are only a very short boat right away. And

(59:21):
do we see the English become involved within the low
countries because at this point Flanders is on.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Ireland, right, So I mean, you know, why why not?
I mean, I guess you could say that if England
slidifies more quickly then I mean, it could be anything
from like the Faroe Islands to you know, you're right,
I mean the low countries in which they had connections
with later, right, So you know, what if they take
some of them, what if they take part of you know,
what would become Holland what if they take you know,

(59:52):
what if they attack Denmark? And is there a possibility
that you have other English influence elsewhere in the conton
on the continent, you know, it's not outside possibility.

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
Yeah, definitely. And a lot of the unification of France
in the you know, in the several hundred years that
follow is basically the core of the French Kingdom being
able to put down the influence of the regions that
essentially are in constant revolt, so Avignon, Burgundy, obviously Normandy.

(01:00:28):
At that point of course, it's English Flanders. Yeah, I
do think that. I think that an ascendant to England
at this period in time definitely eclipses France and guarantees
a much more English centric High Middle Ages.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Yeah, I mean, so any power at this time changing
it could be quite interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Yeah, yeah, and then we'd be stuck without Gothic architecture,
because that is definitely a French thing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
That's true, and that's a that impact on architecture. What
we would have had in place of it, I don't
know enough about it to say if there was, if
there was some nascent architecture movement in England that could
have become a scendant, but it's certainly a possibility.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
It's Yeah, at this point, it is interesting that you
know so much of what would assume from Middle Ages.
You know, the stone keep is still a relative rarity
at this point in time, certainly.

Speaker 1 (01:01:24):
And only a handful, Yeah, only a handful of them
in England. I was looking at they were almost all
you know, Wood and mottin Bailey stuff that they still
what they were doing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Yeah, And again this speaks to the fact that again
we're talking about we are only you know, we're less
than sixty years from the conquer from William the Conqueror.
William the Conqueror did not conquer England overnight. He took
basically basically took his line a couple of generations before
they were finally able to really centralize and solidify power

(01:01:54):
to the point that you could consider them English as
opposed to Wessex, Northumbria, Scottland.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
He took the throne quickly, but that didn't necessarily mean
that he had a kingdom. Thank you for listening to
this episode of The History Guy podcast. We hope you
enjoyed this episode of counterfactual history, and if you did,
you can find lots more history if you follow the
History Guy on YouTube. You can also find us at
the historyguy dot com, Facebook, Patreon, and locals. If you

(01:02:25):
want to hear more counterfactuals, stay tuned. We release podcasts
every two weeks

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Eight
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