Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to The History Guy Podcast Counterfactuals. What is a
counterfactual in the context of studying history, It is a
kind of analysis where we examined what might have happened
had historical events gone differently as a thought experiment. The
goal is to learn and understand history as it is
by talking about what it could have been as a
(00:27):
twist on the historical stories that we tell on the
History Guy YouTube channel. This is a series of podcasts
that dwell on that eternal question what if. I'm Josh,
a writer for the YouTube channel and son of the
History Guy. If you're a fan of the channel, you
already know Lance the History Guy himself. To liven up
our discussions on what might have happened, we have invited
(00:48):
Brad wagnan history officionado and a longtime friend of The
History Guy to join us. Remember that if you'd like
to support us, you can find us on Patreon, YouTube,
andlocals dot com. Join us as we discuss what deserves
to be remembered and what might have been. On this
special one hundredth episode of The History Guy podcast, we
(01:09):
head back to the eighteen hundreds and the beginning of
America's expansion into the Rocky Mountains by taking a look
at Ashley's one hundred, a group of trappers, mountain men,
and explorers who ventured into the West, helping to define
an era and open up the land for settlement. How
might things be different if they didn't. Without further ado,
let me introduce the History.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Guy one hundred and ninety four years ago today. On
June second of eighteen twenty three, a group of fur
trappers in the Yellowstone Area of Wyoming were attacked by
Aricara Indians.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Fifteen of the group were killed.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
The attack would lead to a pointless and ineffective military
campaign and would inspire a scene from the twenty fifteen
movie The Revenant. But it was more important than that,
because that attack caused a small group of American fur
traders to change how they did business, and that change
would transform the nation.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
The story includes.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Many personalities of the Old West, but it begins with
one in particular. William Henry Ashley had already moved to
the land that would eventually become the state of Missouri
before it was even purchased for the United States from
France as part of the Louisiana Territory in eighteen o
three to earn. The War of eighteen twelve, he served
in the Missouri Militia and had risen to the rank
(02:27):
of brigadier general. He went by the title general for
the rest of his life. When Missouri became a state
in eighteen twenty, he was elected its first lieutenant governor.
William Henry Ashley was the quintessential frontier businessman, and in
eighteen twenty two he set his sights on the lucrative
fur trade in the Great American West that had just
(02:49):
been opened up by Lewis and Clark. In eighteen twenty two,
Ashley and a partner would run ads in Saint Louis
area newspapers addressed to enterprising uns young men, saying that
they wanted to raise a company of one hundred men
to ascend the Missouri River to its source and there
be employed for a period of one, two or three years.
(03:12):
There was no shortage of men who wanted to volunteer
to become part of Ashley's one hundred and the subsequent
expeditions that would all be part of the Rocky Mountain
Fur Company, and the names of the participants read like
a who's who of the early American West. Jedediah Smith,
Jim Bridger, Hugh Glass, William Silette, Kit Carson, David Edward Jackson,
(03:34):
Thomas Fitzpatrick.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Ashley had a new.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Idea for the North American fur trade that was largely
based on an eighteen twenty two law that had been
passed by Congress prohibiting the sale of alcohol to Native Americans. Previously,
the fur trade had mostly acquired their pelts from Indians,
who actually did most of the trapping and fur companies
like the Hudson Bay Company would build posts along major rivers,
(03:59):
and posts would be a center where they would trade
with Indians for pelts and then take the pelts downriver
to market. But the item of barter was alcohol and
that was now prohibited, and so when Ashley advertised for
enterprising young men in eighteen twenty two, he was suggesting
a completely different deal. The men themselves would do the
(04:21):
trapping and the company would provide to them all the
tools and equipment that they needed to do so. In exchange,
half of the pelts that they acquired would go to
the company. The other half of the pelts would be
sold to the company at the prevailing rate, and that
would be the men's wages. It seemed a good deal,
but it was resented by the Native Americans who resented
(04:42):
the angle attempts to undercut their fur trade, and that
was a large part of what drove the Aricra attack
in eighteen twenty three. Now, after the attacks, many company men,
a bunch of US soldiers in about six hundred Sioux
Indians who were enemies of the Urcerra, went chasing the
Riquerra all over the Wyoming territory, but they never managed
to bring them to battle, and Ashley realized that the
(05:05):
ERCA would come back just as soon as the soldiers left,
and that the greater Yellowstone Basin would not be a
safe place to try to acquire furs, and so that
attack would force him to change strategy one more time.
Knowing that he didn't want to be tied to the
Yellowstone River in a Ricara country.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
The next year, Ashley led his.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Men out there on horseback instead of as the fur
trade had always been being tied to the rivers. Now
they could go out in small groups and go acquire
their pelts and do their trapping, and then they would
come together once a year where they would trade the
pelts and get their pay and acquire equipment before going
out again, in what was called the rendezvous system, and
(05:46):
it transformed the industry. The mobility of horseback opened up
huge new swaths of unexplored land that were rich with
game and pelts. But more than that, these enterprising young
men out there in the wilds on horseback would make
discoveries throughout the Mountain West that would open the West
(06:08):
to settlement. Jim Bridger would become the first white man
to see the Great Salt Lake and would establish a
trading post along the Green River that would eventually become
a critical resupply point for wagon trains along the Oregon,
California and Mormon Trail and is still there today as
the small town of Fort Bridger, Wyoming. Later, in eighteen
(06:28):
fifty nine, he would be the chief guide for the
Reynolds Expedition, which would explore and map nearly two hundred
and fifty thousand square miles of the Mountain West. Jedediah
Smith led the first group of white men who would
explore the Black Hills of South Dakota and then went west,
becoming the first US citizens to cross the Sierra Nevada
(06:48):
Mountains and travel up the coast of California to the
Oregon Territory. Thomas Fitzpatrick was the scout that shepherded the
first two immigrant wagon trains along the Oregon Trail to
California and Oregon. William Sublette founded a trading post in
Wyoming that would eventually become a center of trade and
(07:09):
diplomacy and a centerpiece of the Indian Wars. Eventually it
was renamed Fort Laramie and it still exists today as
a National Historical Site.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
David Edward Jackson was the first white man.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Known to winter in the valley in front of the
Teeton Mountains, and that is why that world famous valley,
now known as Jackson Hole, bears his name.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Army Officer John C.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Fremont was a central figure in America's westward expansion. It
was his documentation and maps that really allowed the westward expansion,
but he was really a creature of Ashley's one hundred.
He would eventually lead five expeditions in the Mountain West.
In the first expedition, he depended upon the map that
was created by Jedediah Smith, and as his chief guide,
(07:56):
he used one of Ashley's enterprising young men, a man
namamed kit Carson. On his second and longest expedition, the
chief guide was Thomas Fitzpatrick, and kit Carson would join
him again for his third expedition, the last before the
Civil War. William Henry Ashley sold his share of the
Rocky Mountain for a company to Jedediah Smith in eighteen
(08:17):
twenty six. He returned to Missouri, where he served three
terms in the United States Congress before unsuccessfully running for
governor of Missouri. To be sure, fur treading was a
dangerous and not always profitable business, and there were certainly controversies.
Many of Ashley's one hundred were implicated in the mistreatment
of Native Americans. The industry itself was short lived, as overtrapping,
(08:41):
dwindling animal populations, competition among the different companies, and a
change in fashion in the eighteen thirties from fur hats
to silkhats eventually brought an end to the mountain man existence.
But in their time, Ashley's one hundred knew the Mountain
West better than any Anglo Americans alive. The knowledge of
the terrain and the native populations was shared with government
(09:03):
and private sources. Their names are strewn across maps from
Missouri to California. Their names are on mountain ranges, forest rivers,
mountain passes, Counties and cities are named after them because
they led the nation West and they deserve.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
To be remembered.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Now for the fun part, where I the history guy
himself and a longtime friend of the history guy, Brad Wagnan,
discussed what might have happened if it had all gone differently.
So I think this is a really really interesting topic
because in some ways at first I felt like I
didn't know what we were going to talk about. But
I think that these a fairly small number of men,
(09:47):
actually had a fairly large impact on history, and maybe
that will give us some time to talk about things
like the great man theory. But in this case, you know,
these aren't people who I think he would usually consider
to be great men in the classic sense. But they
did play an extremely important role in both defining the
West and exploring it.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
And exploring the worst and settling the West. I think
it's actually part of the biggest thing that they were
spunkle for. So yeah, these are not necessarily named. I
mean some of them probably people have heard of Jim Bridger,
I suppose, but or Kick Carson, who was kind of
one of the later of the one hundred. But uh,
in general, when you think of you know, the great
Man theory, you know that's yeah, we're talking about you know, Hitler,
(10:30):
FDRs and the Churchill But but you know, in the end,
this might be one of the places where it pulls
the most through because you know, how many people could
do what these guys did, how many people were willing
to do what these guys did, and so to an extent,
I mean, I don't think there's probably a long line
behind these guys who would have would have had the
guts to go do the same thing. But I mean
we are tired. I mean, Ashley was one hundred, and
(10:51):
actually it was quite a bit more than that because
they kept you know, shuffling through uh. And then you
also had all the other for trapping agencies two. So
I mean there were there was at least you know,
probably low thousands of men who went out and did this,
and you know, that would be a pretty lot population
density for the area that they were out there exploring
and making contact with the native people, which is important
(11:12):
because someone will mentioned that that you know, these are
it's not that these were abandoned lands or empty lands.
I mean they were there were people in these lands,
and so these were people that were making contact with that.
But I mean it's certainly extraordinary people. I mean, certainly something.
I mean, it would be difficult to find people today
that would be willing or able to take on the
sort of risks that these guys did.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And it certainly was unmapped.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, I mean river valleys, river valleys might have been mapped,
but yeah, in terms of you know, the true you know,
understanding of the geography of the West, I mean, you know,
there was only so much that they could do with
Lewis and Clark, right, so the Discovery Corgan Discovery. So yeah,
I mean they were just they're just watering off in
the woods to bump into whoever you bump into and
then trade, you know, beaver fer. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I'm fascinated by the context and the context at the
time and something we don't understand day. And the closest
thing that I can think of is is that we
have a fascination with the last frontier, which really is space,
and that spurs our imagination. Look at the wonderful amount
(12:15):
of sci fi movies, books, comics, and as we all know,
it's not aliens. I'm not saying it was aliens. And
at the time, the fact that the exploits of Ashley's
one hundred and uh explorers like them are sources of
(12:37):
personal fame in ways that you know, they're celebrities. Well,
any dread fasts were named after these guys, you know,
passes were named after these guys, and then thousands of
people went through.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
But you compare when we see those on the movies
about space, you know, exploration, it's it's you know, they're
they're scientists, their astronauts, and they're high tech. I mean,
it's it's different than someone has to go out you know,
you're you're only gonna wear what you kill, you only
eat what you kill. Yeah, that's so it's I mean,
it's it's it's even it's even a lot of ways
guts here than like the first guy on Mars or
(13:10):
something like that, because this is you know, this is
you're not in radio contact with anybody. Yeah and yeah,
you're living literally off of the land. M h.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah and yeah. In many cases, the nearest individual that
you no one can call a friend may literally be
you know, one hundred.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
You see him once a year at the Rendezvous. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Yeah, but the fact that the Penny Dreadfuls and dime novels,
this speaks to something that you know, we in the
we in the modern era. I guess that the closest
thing you can say is, yeah, maybe the fascination that
we have with speech, with space and you know, it
inspires imagination. It's it's it's the stories.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And of course these stories became legendary absolutely. I mean
the huge last movie that was just that was relatively recently, right,
that was when an Academy Awards. And it's really not
clear exactly the whole story of the real true story
of Hugh Glass and the Bear, but I mean that's
that you know that we're still talking about that, you
know that name this far out. Yeah, these are these
are truly legendary people. That story might be totally made up,
(14:15):
but yeah, it's how much of the story is true
is unclear because there's so many different versions of the story.
But it appears that Hugh Glass did have some sort
of wrestle with the bear and managed to crawl the
heck out of there by himself, I mean, and that's
how many people could do that?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Today, I will say that the number of grizzly bear
attacks that made it into Mountain Men's stories does indicate
that apparently angry grizzly bears were a thing well during
this period, because there seemed to be at least three
different stories involving different different explorers, and they're different stories.
It does not seem as if it's the same story
(14:53):
rehashed with a different legendary Mountain met character.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, I mean part of the stories that they were
killing bears for their fur. I mean part of the
part of the reason that you don't find there's some
things we don't find very much anymore is because these guys,
you know, the fur was so valuable. So yeah, they
were I imagine they were. They were hunting out grizzlies.
But yeah, yeah, don't mess with a with a grizzly,
especially when you got a muzzle loader. Yeah, you got time.
There's no time for the second shot. We should mention too.
(15:18):
By the way, both Josh and I went to the
University of Wyoming. Every time the football team scores a touchdown,
dudes in mountin man att Fits fire their flintlocks off
at the end in the in the end zone.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And they've got a cannon.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, and then the national the National Guard files, So
you get the guys in the flint locks or whatever
fire in their muskets, and then the National Guard shoots
off their cannon. Yeah, in War Memorial Stadium.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
If the football team were better, it would be.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah. They know, they don't have to bring a whole
lot of powder. We'll get in trouble for that.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
That's true. But you know it's it's an alma mater.
So I you know, I was there, and you can.
I think I'm allowed to make fun of them.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
That's the man you are. And you are as brave
as a mountain man to attend a football game in Laramie,
Wyoming in the winter. Yeah, I really love football. To
watch a not very good football team playing in constant
blizzard conditions. Yes.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
The only answerright after that is that the University of
Colorado they have a buffalo.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
They do. Yeah, that's good, ol' ralthy.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Well, back to back to the people who made that
those possibles, and.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
We have wandered off already have by exploring all those areas.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Certainly you know Laramie up there, that's well, those a
lot of the forts and areas that was all planned
that they were exploring. I mean, we've all lived in
this area Colorado, Wyoming, South Dakota, and this is we
know their names. I know their names very well because
these are folks who those are the stories, the history
stories that we have around here. This is where they were,
this is where the stuff is named after them.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Absolutely. Yeah, the Treaty of Fort Laramie was negotiated by
when I ask this one hundred, all of this is yeah. So,
I mean there's and they spent a lot of time
up in the Yellowstone area and stuff like that. I
think the Rick War that I think they fought, maybe
the Creek War up they thought.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
A war there and well, they were focused on.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
We should get that out of the way, which is.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Part well, I mean it's all over Wyoming and Idaho
and stuff, but I've been through all that area.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Well, that was kind of the territory that they were
promised though they would they would snitch into other people's territory.
And you know that that's interesting too because they were
at the same time fighting wars with like the Hudson
Day Company and the and the Cintral Missouri Company. Yeah,
so they were fighting for territory, for the for the
trades too. So that I mean the question here is
if if it weren't for Ashley's one hundred, how different
might America be? I guess is part of the story.
(17:33):
I mean, in terms of counterfactuals. It's interesting because these
guys played a lot of really important roles on opening
the West. So I mean there's there's a broad question
would the West have opened at all if we didn't
have either Ashley's when our people like Ashley's one hundred,
or how would it have evolved differently if they hadn't
been there? And I think that I think there's some
some really interesting discussion there. And particularly they found the
(17:57):
mountain passes that made the trail to California and Oregon.
Probably everybody that listens to this, well that's not fair.
At least, you know, the younger end of the ones
that listened to us will have played the Oregon Trail
and died of dysentery at some point with Oregon. But
I mean without the Oregon Trail, I mean, the United
State's a very different place. And if it was much
(18:17):
harder to get to California in eighteen forty nine, the
world's a very different place, and these are the guys
that really made that a possible, a doable trip. So
you can start with the West coast of America certainly
would not have populated as quickly as it did if
these people weren't because they didn't just you know, find
the passes and open the passes. Most of them were
(18:38):
like the early people that led the early wagon trains
at built these trails.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yeah, they were the only ones who knew how to
get through it. This was dangerous enough if you were
a lone mountain man who was probably particularly skilled and
prepared to go through there. But if you're talking you
know families that were traveling along the Oregon Trail slowly
using their ox in those wagons with everything they own,
I mean that that was impossible without someone to show
(19:02):
you the way.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I mean, in a simple sense, historically, these guys were really,
really important, and it's difficult to see if there were
other people who would have done the same. So I
mean we could start on a counter factual to say
that at least the Western United States would have populated
much more slowly. There might not have been nearly as
great an impact of the California gold Rush, and if
(19:26):
we had populated in Oregon and Washington more slowly, it's
possible that the treaty with the British would have been
much different up there, because that was always disputed territory
and it might be that what is Washington State today
would actually be a part of Canada.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Well, that part of our argument when we were arguing
that was that we had effective occupation. We already have
people there, and if we don't, or we have significantly
fewer people and there's more you know, Hudson Bay Company
power in that region, I mean that does that alters
how that treaty goes and how those negotiations go.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
And that was also occupied by the Russians and the Spanish,
I mean, where everybody's fighting over that. So if we
didn't have the Oregon Trail, we might have been a
part of that discussion. And so that leads if you know,
because similar are and I guess we should you know,
from the start mentioned the actually is one hundred generally
had good relations with the natives because they had to
because they were trading furs. But they did engage in
conflict with the natives. They did assist the army in
(20:24):
flights against the natives. So if you want to talk
about that, you know, the genocide, the Western genocide, these
guys were part of that. But on the other hand,
they also facilitated friendly relations with the natives in ways
that if they hadn't been there, you know, maybe it
would have been more hostile. But when you ask the
question of say, would the western United States have, say,
become an Indian nation or something like that, would we
(20:45):
not have populated the West, then it leads the question
that if the US hadn't populated the West, would it
simply have been, you know, been popular by another European power,
you know, the British, the Spanish, or the or the
potentially the French actually because the Louisi had had to
the French at.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
A certain point, you know, the Mexicans as opposed to
the Spanish, which were We're one of the powers out there.
To be fair, that the Spanish were learning at this
point that they just they couldn't project their power across
the Atlantic anymore, although the didn't stop them from trying.
This is not all that far off from the Nook
Cut crisis, which was which is right up there in
(21:22):
Spanish Spanish Canada as as they claimed. But the whole,
the whole thing there was that we learned that the
Spanish could not project their power there either. That was
just one piece of the the long decline.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
How much how much could the British or the Russians
though too also, but the West coast, I mean it
was perceived as valuable. They were already fighting over it.
It seems to me unlikely. I mean that that if
the US had not moved west as quickly, that the
only other real possible scenarios that it would have been
eventually settled by another European power, just another direction.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Yeah, I think the likely candidate for the West coast changeover,
if you will, or an altered at west coast Mexico
because at that point Mexico there's still struggling through things.
But in eighteen forty nine, imagine if Mexico receives the windfall,
that is the monetary nine am.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, if they hold on to it, that's that's fair.
And then they have because I mean, one of the
part of the reason the United States gets is because
we were we were more able to project power there
than Britain or Russia, which compared to Britain and Russia
in Spain was way closer to Washington, DC, that way
closer to our centers of power. But Mexico doesn't have
(22:36):
that same weakness, right they have. They're also fairly close
still frontiers, but they could potentially, you know, they could
walk there, which none of the other people could say
they could.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
They had real settlement there, I mean, at least southern
at least the southern part of the West coast. Whether
Mexico would have been projecting power up into Washington and
Oregon is a different question too, And that easily could
have been because of the Hudson Bay Company and et cetera.
I mean that there was a lot of British activity
up in Canada that could have come back well, and.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
They they saw you know, the British side as a
possible jumping point for to Asia as far as trading went,
so as a connection point to China, and that's and
that's part of why, I mean, you know, in these negotiations,
there were lots of versions of what that border might
have looked like, and many of them included more territory
for England. And that's you know, that's in the kind
(23:26):
of best case scenario that was the real the real scenario,
which was that we had a lot of people in
what is now Washington and Oregon, and so it is
easy to see that if you don't have that, that
British controls at least into you know, Puget Sound and
these important these important places they could use for trade.
And I don't think it would have I think it
(23:48):
would have remained fairly, fairly sparsely populated, maybe compared to
the United States coming in.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
But I think I wanted that the Native the Indigenous
people were in no way unified. I mean they were
and actually in a lot of ways and weren't you know,
they weren't even similar culturally, and you know, the whole
area of the region. And so it's kind of it's
hard to imagine that without Ashley's one hundred that you
end up with some sort of free state or buffer
(24:14):
state or Native American state. I think by the time
of Ashley that that's probably a done deal, that this
is going to end up being European dominated.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right if you do, you're talking some probably some pretty
extremely bad land. I mean you're talking lands that they're
that just no one else, if truly no one else
wanted it and I mean the truth is that he
always found a reason to want it, and that's that's
probably true the other way, you know, if it was
the British too.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
When they fought with the Ericora, which is kind of
interesting because they it wasn't Ashley, that it was another
fur trading company that ticked off the Aricara and they
just didn't you know, they saw them all as one.
So actually people kind of got caught in the middle
of that. But could I mean, could the Arica Ricara
have won the Arica Award? Could the Creek have won
the Creek War? Could they you know, could these various
conflicts at the Ashleys one ended up being involved in.
(25:00):
You know, might the natives have won those wars? And
might that have made a difference. And I think in
the long run, the way that worked is if they
had defeated whatever military expedition came at the time, we
would have just sent a bigger military expedition behind it.
I think in the long run we were probably going
to overcome you know, the population difference was just too
bay Well.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
One of the things I thought about is if you
don't have Ashley's one hundred and we have this real
we have a real there's a narrative to how these
mountain men went out out there and how we conquered
the West, and then I had lots to do with
these these I mean, these brave, these individual men who
were very good at what they did, who were survivors.
And if you don't have that, and instead, for instance,
(25:42):
it's it's almost all done by the army, maybe the
story of the West looks different. And I mean there was,
of course plenty of army and plenty of army stories
in the West. But if you don't even have you know,
the idea of these these mountain men and stuff like that,
maybe that really kind of alters how how we think
about that entire period of history.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And we certainly might recognize the economic value of the
West much more slowly. Yeah, but when we say the
army was out there, you know, Fremont's expeditions always had
Ashley's men with them and their guides. The guides were
almost always someone from Ashley. So yeah, I don't know.
I mean, it's interesting to say the West was inexorable,
but it doesn't mean it couldn't have unfolded differently. And
(26:25):
if it had folded differently, would it have been you know,
better or worse or you know, functionally the same for
the Native people's would it and what would it mean
about the states that we have today, in the population
centers that we have today. I mean, it's it could
be substantially different.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Well, you wonder if you if they have, say, you know,
extra time, because I think that's a minimum. What we're
talking about is that the Native Americans have you know,
another decade or several decades with with just less less incursion.
It still seems like that's not going to be enough
to beat, you know, the American I mean, it's not
like the American military was going to be growing weaker
(26:59):
in that time. I'm kind of regardless of what the
situation was, eventually there was going to be pressure to
move west.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
The whole concept of manifest destiny, I think at this
point in time is something you simply cannot escape. And
it was truly died in to the culture of the
United States at that point. I mean, there was there
was west.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
There was political opposition maybe to that, but I mean
the thing is that you know, the immigration and people
searching for land was going to keep pressing west, and
so even when we talk about, you know, order to
come from America or England or Mexico or whatever. I mean,
the end of the the huge mass population that was
looking for land and driving expansion was coming from America
(27:42):
and they're just there. Weren't you know, there weren't people
coming from England to go to that side of Canada yet.
But I mean, you know, how do we populate if
we don't find these easy trails out to the west coast.
I mean, if we just are literally crawling fifty miles
a year through the heartland without you know, easy paths
to the west, how much different you know, do we
have the trans Continental Railroad in twenty years? You know,
(28:02):
if if we if we went.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
That way, well, they they talked about the go West
as kind of a relief relief valve of people who were,
you know, otherwise not going to be able to get
by in the in the east. And you wonder what
I mean, it's it's much more difficult to to kind
of imagine. But you wonder what happens if you don't
have that. I mean, if you don't have the thousands
of people who are traveling along the Oregon Trail and
(28:26):
or going you know, seeking their fortune in California. I mean,
that's there. Those people got to go somewhere, and I.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Think a lot of the settlement in the Midwest or well,
I guess we call the Rocky Mountain region was people
that were originally on the Oregon Trail ended up staying,
you know, some place along the way. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
I think that's if the Ricara do actually win the war.
I do think that, you know, first of all, the
Ricarra incident really kind of shut down the idea that hey,
we're just going to have trading post all up and
down these rivers, and instead it's we're going to decentralize
and basically higher fur contractors as opposed to trading directly
(29:03):
with the natives. And that's really what drives a lot
of the exploration and a lot of the discovery and
ultimately these men being put into positions where they're guiding
the army or government officials at various times. There is
also a lot of what counts as the conquering of
the planes Indians occurs during and after the Civil War.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
After this, when.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
America really is very well prepared militarily for a large
for a large campaign basically into the planes, and at
that point they've got you know, they certainly have they
have enough surplus military hardware around that they can do.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So including the men want they wanted somewhere to go.
People wanted to Still, the army shrunk, but they had
more than enough people who were willing to serve somewhere.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
And neo veterans with an experience and you I mean,
I think like in the Arica World War, they actually
had maybe thirty guys with him, and then there was
some I mean we're talking about that's a fairly small
conflict compared to the whole Plain's work conflict, because these
are I mean, they were never huge numbers of Ashley's
people out there.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Yeah, but if the Aurcara had one and held back,
you know, Ashley's one hundred basically turned out to be
one of the footnotes in history because they were all killed.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, I mean, Ashley was with them and they were besieged,
And I mean, what if they just killed all Ashley's
right there and then.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Then you don't that could have that could have totally
ended and absolutely changed you know, then the people whose
names we know, I mean, if they were all killed
and or Ashley was killed so we never recruit some
I mean maybe some of them, you know, try to
work with a different company. But of course Ashley's big
thing was because of this war, he decides to stay
away from just the rivers and they start, you know,
(30:49):
moving overland and on horse and the and the rendezvous system,
which was it was a big deal. And so if
you don't have those, it alters how how we move
across the west, because you know, even Ashley system falls
apart completely because of overhunting of beavers and changing of fashion,
and ultimately you know that there's there's only so much
time where that's going to be a valuable on that point. Yeah,
(31:12):
if it gets delayed and the other guys, you know,
keep doing it in the old way, I mean, maybe
you don't have the drive for those mountain men. And
that clearly every pretty much everything we did to move
west I relied at least somewhat on them.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
You know, if that if the big competition was what
was named astor right, he had it. But also yeah,
oh yeah, yeah, so I mean one of these one
of these other companies have filled the same space or
because you're right, I mean, Ashley did it differently than
they did and that's one of the reasons why these
guys became, you know, not just fur traders, but extraordinary scouts,
you know, John Jacob Aster. Yet it was the other guy.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, I was trying to remember what this company
was called, the American for a Company.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
But I mean, gosh, Ashley himself, and he was really
an interesting guy. Could could the Ashley? Could this have
occurred that Ashley? You would think so, because at some
point actually decides he wants to run for gover strategy
just kind of sells it off to his employees. And
he started off with a partner too. So I don't
know that that he individually was was necessary, but he
was certainly one of these got It's kind of funny
to come himself to he was, I guess brigadier general
(32:13):
and the militia or they never fought or something by
general for the rest of his life. I need I
need one of those wars, so or were you never
fight what you're gonna be called general till the day
you die? But he he because he founded a trading
post like in Salt. I mean, he himself was one
of these guys that went out there. What relationship would
the army have had with the natives if we did
(32:35):
have the fur traders out there, you know, building these
relationships and the but of course, you know, in the
in the wars and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I mean, some of that is we had an advantage
because of you know, and so if the army doesn't
have that advantage of although maybe you know, maybe they
find that advantage in another way. We always were hiring
Native American guides too, although they were perhaps less trustworthy
than well.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
I mean, again, these times were so fragmented that there's
always someone who's if you're fighting someone, someone's got an enemy.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That ultimately, ultimately, I mean they think that's the one
of the reasons why there's just there's not much chance
of that because if you talk about like a you
want to talk about a Native American nation that like
formed in there, there's just when you really look at
the logistics of that, I mean, they were never going
to join with each other. And gosh, the Native Americans
had tried, that was the whole. That was what to
(33:23):
COMSA was trying to do, you know, and he couldn't
get that done. He got closest of almost anybody, and
that still didn't that still wasn't enough, and it's it's
hard to it's hard to imagine that they would be
able to settle all their differences and then you know,
be able to face face it with a with a
united front. And if they can't do that, I mean
that the the Europeans had been taking advantage of that
(33:47):
since we first started coming to the I mean that
was they did that in Peru, and they did that
in Mexico when the Spanish arrived.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Well, yeah, to be fair, the lets you and him
have a fight method of diplomacy is as old probably
mad himself to.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, I mean, the Native Americans have been using that
against the various European powers as well. And one of
the things I was thinking that I thought was kind
of interesting if we are slower to get to Oregon
in around eighteen you know, in the eighteen forty five
ish James Polk as president when we were arguing for
the treaty with England in Oregon. One of the reasons
(34:28):
he did not push for the fifty four to forty
was because he was already getting into a war with
Mexico and he didn't think we could fight the war
with England at the same time. And so part of
me wonders, if we don't have people there and he
doesn't want to fight with England, I mean, maybe that
means he's happy to sign a treaty that gives up Oregon.
(34:50):
On the other hand, if you see a place where
he wants both Mexico and Oregon and he sees that
he's not going to be able to get Oregon in
a treaty later because we don't have the people there,
that the only way to get Oregon, he feels is
a war. I mean, maybe he chooses to fight in
Oregon instead of Texas.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Instead of Texas.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
I don't know which one of those is is more likely,
but it'd be interesting to see if we if we
fight the English, you know, if we fight the British
in Oregon and get our border up to fifty four
to forty instead of the forty nine degrees, which is
what it is today, do we give up some piece
of Mexico in the in the future, which means we
have completely different Southwest and.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo gave them a huge amount
of plan if we don't, if we don't fight them,
win that war, yeah, I mean eventually, eventually, would we
have taken that anyway. Yeah, that's the chance to say
we would have taken it anyway.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
But if we fight that war after eighteen sixty five,
do we take more of Mexico.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Or all of Mexico?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, because part of the reason we don't take more
than we did, which was already an enormous amount, was
specifically because we have free, free politicians, and the free
dates did not want to add more slave states, and
any state that was in Mexico was was going to
be a potential slave state. And so that's that's why
we didn't take Sonora, and it's essentially why we didn't
(36:10):
take all of northern Mexico.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
But if you don't have that stopping well, i mean,
do we just in eighteen sixty five the war, the
civil war's over, We've got a huge army, and Mexico's
in the midst of a civil war. Yeah, I mean,
certainly the US had the capacity to conquer all of
Mexico at that time. We didn't have the will that
we wanted more war after the you know, we kind
of tacitly supported warres. I mean, that's a fair point.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
That is, if we if we don't take to Mexico
in the eighteen forties, Mexico gets their gold in eighteen
forty nine, and suddenly that's very valuable land to us
and Mexico. Even if that gold helps them some, it's
hard to imagine that it gets rid of all their instability.
We'd still probably be in a good position. And then
(36:54):
you know, we've got an awfully large motivation.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Well, and if if we haven't defeated Santana at the Alamo,
you know at Santa Cento that sant Anna's still still
he had known what to do with that gold, that
was his best thing, you know.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
But he probably wouldn't have used it to make Mexico
a more stable state.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
He might, but I mean he might have been emperor
four more times if we hadn't fought the war with Mexico,
because we hadn't said so, if we don't send population
to Oregon, Uh, then then that suggests we might not
have fought the war with Mexico. That's an interesting that's
an interesting concept.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
It certainly could could I mean change it could change borders,
but it could really change how and when things happened.
And I mean we're talking we'd be talking about a
very different history of the expansion West.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yes, I mean anything without Ashley's one hundred is going
to be a different history of the of the West.
It's going to be a different way that we settled
the West. It might not be the way that it
kind of was settled, which which was people thousands and
thousands of people going on trails through the West. Uh,
and then and then kind of back filling after that.
I mean, the frontier went like this for a for
a while. This is a podcast. I guess people can't
(38:05):
see my hands moving better. There's things that where we
populated on the west coast that are populated in the east,
and then we sort of we filled in the middle,
and we might have grown in a different way, certainly
without without the exploration, without the map making, without the funding,
the passes and the water that was necessary to be
able to do that kind of trip across, as well
as the relationships with the Native Americans and all that
(38:27):
stuff that facilitated that in the West. So you're right, yeah,
I mean, anything without actually one hundred, you have to
think that the West, I mean, whether it comes out
different than the whether the United States comes out different
than it looks today, or you know, we have different borders,
it would it would have filled in differently without without
Ashleys man which is which is extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (38:43):
I was going to say, I think that one of
the possible outcomes is that a US military begins to
push westward as well as potentially eastward from the West coast,
and it is manned not by it is manned by
political appointees without without the guides who actually have some
(39:04):
knowledge of the area, and so do you get more
and more bloody outcomes.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I think there's definitely incompetent go ahead. I think there's
definitely a possibility that the conflicts with the native population
would have been worse without the Ashley people, without you know,
the ability to understand languages and having relationships and et cetera.
I mean, I don't think I can guarantee that, but
I think it's it's quite possible that it would. Next
(39:33):
the outcomes would have been poorer for the Native American population,
and without the relationships have been built with with the
Mountain met and the one hundred.
Speaker 4 (39:42):
Yeah, looking at the experience that Kick Carson had with
the Navajo, Yeah, what if there isn't a general who'll
actually understand some of these things, and you can act
as the peacemaker and instead a US army it gets
wiped out. So the US decides to send instead of
a few thousand, decides to send a few tens of thousands,
and with the cries of you know, revenge upon the
(40:05):
revenge on the Navajo, revenge on the Apache, revenge on
the command Chee.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
They might just straight wipe those wipe those people's out completely.
Of course, that's a very different we you know, we
wipe them out in greater numbers that that really alters
what the what the West looks like, because of course
those people have continued to have a large impact on
those states that what are today states, and on the
cultures of those states. You know, New Mexico and Arizona
(40:33):
have have quite a bit of influence from from Navajo
and from all the Hope and all these various these
tribes that have lived there for of course much longer
than the Europeans have. But it's hard to it's it's
a hard thing to argue about on that front, because
there really isn't a side of that that is like
not tragic historically. Yeah, but if we're talking from a purely,
(40:55):
you know, from a purely historical perspective, it's certainly possible that, yeah,
we do a lot more damage. It's a lot harder
to see a version of history where you change Ashley's
one hundred and it's much better for them.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, I think it is harder to say. I'm trying
to imagine how it would have worked out better, except
that if if Ashley's one hundred doesn't go west, if
we don't have people giving any economic value to the
west making it possible to go to the west, maybe
western expansion stops at Kansas and the mountains are just
not worth it.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Well, And even if we decide to claim it, I mean,
maybe if we don't see the you know, just because
the borders are on the map, maybe it's you know,
the Native Americans have much more freedom there. Maybe we
honor more of the Treaty of Fort Laramie kind of
kind of thing. Not necessarily, not that treaty specifically necessarily,
but you know, they where they've got more autonomy because
we don't see it as valuable lands, because I.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Mean, what if we actually made the legal commitment that
we made at the Treaty of Port Lay. So maybe
there is a huge Indian territory that's all of western
South Dakota and most of what most of Wyoming from
the Fort lettermy treaty that actually remains, and that could
be an autonomous nation today. That could be something that's
either semi autonomous or more autonomous.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
But that's I mean, that's that does kind of feel
like the best the best case. It's hard to imagine
a fully autonomous nation, if only because because of the
manifest destiny, it seems like we're going to want to
claim that land.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Ye how it always works out, even when you promise
the land and then you know you've got more settlers
come and the settlers get there, and then that causes
tension and there's a fight, and the army always takes
the settler side, and then you can just keep moving.
I mean, there were lots of times that we signed treaties,
long before Ashley's one hundred, that we signed treaties and
then we decided we want to go west anyway. I mean,
this is interesting too because they were responsible, actually one
(42:41):
hundred responsible for a quicker pass to California too. Without
I mean, we would have recognized the value of eighteen
forty other the Gold Discovery. So without actually one hundred,
without those passes, might we have taken, say, Panama, because
there was a point where we were literally talking about,
well we had filibusters too going down there, taking Nicaragua
(43:02):
or Panama in order to have a path, you know,
a steamship path that we could get to California. So
if we didn't have faster paths on the on the continent,
because we already had a lot of pressure we already
I mean essentially, you know, we you know, we're doing
a lot down in Panama and stuff like that, but
do we take a chunk of Central America, uh, you
(43:23):
know that goes coast to coast in order to better
facilitate going to California because we don't have the route
that we don't have the overlood root.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Yeah, well that's that's a fair point, because it was
in many ways easier to travel by sea. The only
problem was getting to California. Meant, you know, crossing either
crossing the Central America in some way which was not
land we controlled and was generally not not as safe
as you might like, or you know, you have to
go all the way around South America, and.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
That's that was very dangerous.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That's why we Yeah, right, even then, even in the eighties,
I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
We were primarily responsible for road across Panama at the
time because that was mostly moving Americans for eighteen forty nine.
But would we have been more aggressive in terms of
actually politically taking control and you know, Mike, might Panama
or Nicaragua be a US state today if Ashley's people
hadn't passes. Forget who it was, there's one of them
that's actually particularly associated with the past that got to
(44:19):
California for the forty nine route.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
But certainly, I mean that's going to be a path
of least resistance, and ultimately that we still had people
traveling that route through Panama. So if you know, if
the path of least resistance is not moving people through overland,
which still just took forever because it was it's just
so hard to move over that without any roads, without
especially if you wanted to carry anything with you, then
(44:44):
maybe we do. I mean, maybe we're just like, Okay,
we're going to take a chunk of this. I don't
really see any reason why any of anything that was
going on in Central America was going to be able
to stop us.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
If we really wanted to. Yeah, there was there was
nothing politically enough that secure enough down there that we
couldn't have taken it if we really felt like it.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, might not have been all that friendly or peaceful,
might have been some violence, but I mean I think
we could have held it. That was true of the
whole West, was that there was It was not always
friendly and peaceful, but.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
We essentially forced a treaty upon, you know, upon Panama there. So,
so I mean that's an interesting idea because I mean,
there were there were filibusters, there were these you know,
dudes that just get our parties and go down there.
And I think it's possible that without Ashley's one hundred
that we might have been more active in Central America
or even in Mexico, because we would have seen a
(45:36):
different value in that land. If we, you know, didn't
think we could get across the great center of the
Great American Desert, I guess we call it.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Even if we just didn't think we could get across
fast enough, right, I mean, that's the even if we're like, oh,
you can, but we're going to have to build up,
you know, find people who can find the passes and
figure that out if that's going to take you years,
it might be a lot easier. We know how to
get across Mexico or Nicaraqua or Panama. You know, we
(46:04):
know how to do that already. And certainly it's difficult
to see. Despite the arguments between like slavery and free states,
which was whether we were going to expand in it,
it ultimately came down a lot to the Free States
didn't want to expand as much because it seemed like
that would benefit slave states more. I think that this
would have outweighed that.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
Another possibility is that if there is a significant Plains
Indian political influence in the area over which the Transcontinental
Railroad ran, then does the entire Transcontinental Railroad period of
politics not occur possibly until late or does.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
It does that occur earlier because we don't have the
passes and so we you know, because we don't have
an overlin rap because you know, we could have been
building the trans Continental Railroad and the you know, in
the eighteen thirties we just couldn't agree on roots and
you know, just so we get different imperative.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
If it's the you know, we have to have one,
because it's the only way you know, maybe we choose
I mean, you know, maybe then we choose more southern route,
and maybe not the Southern route as they argued it,
but something that was much more southern, because I mean
almost everything that was political in that period somehow boiled
down to arguments between free states and slave states. Uh,
(47:22):
then that's true of the railroads. But if you you know,
I feel like we have to get to California, it's
gonna be a lot easier to do it further south
where we don't have to deal with the plains Indians.
Of course, not that there weren't plenty of Native Americans
there to fight with, you too. I mean, if you're
trying to build it through Arizona or the Southern route
as you know, as it was kind of imagined, you know,
there was the Apache and the Copanche and all them
(47:43):
down there too. It's not like they would have made that.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Yeah, yeah, one of them actually that who was it? Yeah,
Jebediah Smith was killed by Comanche, wasn't he one of
the big names of the Actually one hundred actually was
far enough south that he was he was killed. Jedediah
was Mamanche, so they were It wasn't just in the
Ploming area. They were they were way out.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
We there was not I mean, there was no land
in there. That wasn't that you know, there weren't There
wasn't someone living there. The Commands and the Apache, of
course have a have a reputation for.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Well, the Battle of Adobe Walls takes place after the
American Civil War. So there's certainly instability in the area
that's not necessarily conducive to having a transcontinental and unguarded
transcontinental railroad. If we follow another one of the alternate
history lines where the United States decides it's going to
(48:33):
conquer Mexico, however, perhaps that southern route does start looking
quite a bit more.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, be kinds of central road at that point, right,
quite quite a bit more attractive in Mexico. That that's
that's kind of in the middle. Yeah and yeah.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
And at that point, if we are more active in Arizona,
New Mexico, do we find the gold and silver reserves
in the American Southwest, probably not white.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
If we essentially find a route just around the plains,
speak in the mountains, we're going around the rocky mountains essentially,
that means that I mean one of the ways we settled.
I mean, gosh settled nearly all of that territory. Means,
how we settled Kansas was because of the railroad, and
that we you know, where we build these settlements along
the railroad. So if we don't build a railroad through there,
I mean, for for Wyoming, I mean that's Cheyenne Chyan
(49:24):
exists because there's a railroad going through. There's the whole
reason that there's that there's a city many many places.
And so if you don't if you don't build that,
then you don't the cities don't grow. And this might
just this might be for an area that is already
some of the some of the least populated in the
United States. You know, how much do you have to
(49:46):
nudge that before it becomes i mean almost wilderness?
Speaker 4 (49:51):
In the modern era, this might also have led to
the perception in Europe that maybe America isn't the frontier
area that we want to go to. Uh, maybe we
should go to some other place like say Australia or
Africa or yeah. So do uh you know, suddenly is
(50:12):
there this population of poor, down trodden masses who end
up not at Ellis Island but rather decide that perhaps
that frontier in South Africa would be would be a
less insecure place with greater chance for for fortune.
Speaker 1 (50:29):
That the ways that that could alter the character and
population and culture of the United States there that's hard
to that's hard to even imagine. But yeah, I mean
one of the big drivers and one of the reasons
why people were coming over from Europe was because we
had this idea that there was this fairly safe land
and there was the land was easy to come by.
And if if, you know, if we don't have that same.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
Yeah, what if these what if these waves of people
that are leaving Europe at the time are going elsewhere
rather than here because we don't have I mean, that's
a you know, that's a interesting question, it could say,
and that could that could be mad I mean, it
might have been Canada too, but it also could have
been South America or Africa just as easily, and that
would that would dramatically you know, you're talking about culture too, though.
(51:11):
I mean a big chunk of the American vision of
our culture, that frontier culture comes from the idea of
these self reliant mountain man, this idea of the rugged individual,
the gun culture, which the rest of the world thinks
that we're very bizarre because we all believe we should.
I mean, you know, obviously that's not you know, unique
to Ashley's one hundred or the or the Mountain Men.
(51:31):
But I mean it's a big it's a big chunk
of it. Uh And we still remember our frontier period
more than I think, you know, most of Europe does.
And you know, so you know, the idea you had
to be you had to be armed. Still, if you
have a farm, you have to be armed out there.
But I mean that's that's just part of farming and ranching.
You're gonna have to shoot a coyote now and again.
But uh So, I wonder without Ashley's one hundred, could
(51:53):
it be that America has a more sort of European
attitude that the things that sort of South America part
with our our individualism and our I guess some would
argue jingoism. I don't know if that's necessarily fair, and
especially our our attachment to you know, to guns is
which which is hard to say because that was also
attached to the revolution and the idea of the minute
(52:13):
man and all that sort of thing. But I mean,
how much of the culture of what makes America, especially
the way the rest of the world sees us. That
makes America different is because of these these mountain men
that if we hadn't had them, that we might be
a different kind of people.
Speaker 1 (52:27):
Well, and certainly it alters, you know, the idea of
the Old West with cowboys and everything, ranchers and all
that stuff that that relies on these mountain men as
as kind of the precursors to that. And a lot
of the American gun culture comes from that, that kind
of stuff that all I think relies on on these
mountain men originally coming coming through. There's a reason why
(52:49):
kids play cowboys and Indians kind of thing all the time.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
That's that's still cowboys and Indians still think. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
I guess I don't know. I played it when I
was a kid.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
I wondered cowboys and Indians and robberts. I wonder if those.
Speaker 4 (53:01):
Were flashback to one of our previous episodes and we
were discussing Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt's ideology is steeped in
Western culture. Oh gosh, yeah, that those images the rugged
individualist he I think more than anybody else, was able
to tap into that and turn it into rhetoric. And
(53:24):
I don't mean rhetoric in the bad way. I mean
rhetoric in the classical sense of creating an entire ethos
around it.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
How do you get Teddy Roosevelt without West as we
know it, right, without him coming out to South Dakota
to ranch in north that's the wrong Dakota. But you know,
I mean that was that was formative.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
I didn't had to get more remote than South Dakota.
You just go a little bit north.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
The Great Dakota War.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
So we do have to know North Dakota is still
the will untamed wild West. It is still still by savages.
Eventually they'll get they'll get internet up there, and then
they'll they'll know that we're making fun of them.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Perhaps the biggest question, and the one we haven't approached yet,
is if we don't populate populate that section of the country,
perhaps what happens is the the great Sasquatch Empire begins.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Absolutely, I was I was gonna mention that this is
this is a squatchy of places you will ever get.
So maybe with.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
Independent state is SASQUATCHI yet and it's that's and so
all of all of Montana and Wyoming and the Dakota's
you know, there's no North South Dakota rivalry because that's
all that's all Sasquatchee.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
I was disappointed because I could not find a specific, take,
actual event where actually one hundred ran into Sasquatch, because
there's so many of those stories in the West, uh,
you know, including one in Valse Teddy Roosevelt. But you know,
of course we're we're never really positive if Hugh Glass
was truly fighting a bear, you know, in the battle.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
Maybe it is true, maybe maybe.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
The Sasquatch, and and that's I mean, that's.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
That's the true story.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
It's a very plausible story. And I think we need
to see that movie. I think that.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
Maybe that's how Hugh Glass survived.
Speaker 2 (55:28):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Maybe it was a bear, but it was the Sasquatch who.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Saved tabled him.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
And of course he couldn't. He had to make up
the story that he crawled all the whole way because
because he needed to protect his friends.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Actually, I mean, of all the episodes we've done, this
is the one that's more, that's most you know, Crassley Squatchy, right,
I mean, this is that's the.
Speaker 1 (55:50):
That's that's really really true. There's there's nothing else if we.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Don't have if we don't have the because you know
that's the hot spot is up in Idaho and Oregon,
in Washington State. If we don't have the Oregon Trail,
you know, maybe there's a much larger Sasquatch population today,
and you know, maybe even a politically active squatch population.
Speaker 4 (56:07):
Here is what I think are likely Sasquatch looks like
due to the fact that the civilized peoples and their loud, noisy, fiery,
smoky firearms do not show up, that a far more friendly,
more nature loving and natural plains Indian or Northern Plains
(56:29):
Indian culture reach out to the Sasquatch in their time
of need, and thus the noble Sasquatch literally is nobility
to a unified We have a true Indian state.
Speaker 2 (56:43):
Nation that is, say, you know, western Montana, Idaho, Washington,
and Oregon that is ruled over by Sasquatches. It's fair
to say, given where Sasquatch are actually literally supposed to
be today, even though they'll do finding Bigfoot anywhere in
the nation, that these passes through the Sierras certainly impacted
(57:04):
greatly what would be considered the prime Sasquatch habitat, and
therefore you could certainly argue and presumably the natives that
were here had already figured out their peace with Sasquatchia.
So it is it is safe to say that without
Ashley's one hundred, that might have been quite a boon
to the to the to the Sasquatch population and their
(57:26):
you know, territory. I'm not sure exactly how you would
say that if they would actually be defending territory, maybe
just habitat. I guess it.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Depends on exactly what what a Sasquatch is, which unfortunately
we're not one hundred percent certain is that they have territory,
do they have habitats?
Speaker 2 (57:46):
But I mean, actually this one hundred could not have
been good for Sasquatches in that the way that it
brought population to the areas that were squatchy.
Speaker 1 (57:55):
Even if we're talking about that they are some kind
of a shy great ape kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Well especially so I mean, especially if this is if
this is simply a wild animal with a habitat, then
I mean, this is actually one hundred had a lot
to do with, you know, the population of that habitat
which might have become then very unfriendly to a you know,
to a wide ranging mountain ape.
Speaker 4 (58:18):
Yeah, now I will throw in veering this back towards
a potential serious thought that suddenly occurred to me after
our fanciful detour into Sasquatia. There is a very real
possibility that the Civil War looks a lot different the
US American Civil War. It looks it looks like perhaps
(58:39):
it comes a lot earlier, perhaps it comes just a
little later. Perhaps Indian tribes play a much larger role.
And because the Confederacy really tried to reach out to
the various various Indian tribes in the southern southern part
of the Indian States and did have at least some
(58:59):
success getting those tribes. If those tribes are more are
more militarily, if they have they have a greater military
capability because they're more numerous, then or they're in an
area that was formerly conquered by the United States as
the United States of Mexico annex in you know, the
(59:20):
eighteen forties, does the Confederacy have a much better chance
to win because a large portion of Mexico is actually
part of the Confederacy.
Speaker 1 (59:29):
If they could make a because one of the reasons
you know, the West, the far far West was was
a fairly minor section was that there just wasn't wasn't
any troops over there. But if you have more of Mexico,
maybe you do. If the South was able to mount
some serious efforts out there, I mean, the North would
have had to respond, right, and it would have been
(59:50):
it would have been difficult. If if the South has
you know, the essentially these Mexican states as a base,
it would have been harder for the North. I mean,
the North would have been the one that would find
it difficult to get military out there. But it would
have been a serious issue if there was really serious
you know, Confederate forces that could you know, take over
Arizona Territory area.
Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
There's lots of ways impact because you know, the flag
of Nevada says battle Born. You know that wasn't a
battle fought in Nevada. It was Nevada silver interests that
made Nevada state during the Civil War. So if if
you haven't filled in the West in the way that
actually is one hundred, but have facilitated, then the Union
doesn't have the silver from Nevada. Then that could have
been a significant difference in the war. But the conflict,
(01:00:32):
I mean, the biggest issue with Lincoln wasn't that he
was an abolitionist. He wasn't he opposed extension of slavery
to the western territories. Right, So if you don't have that,
if we haven't if we aren't talking about making new
territories in Arizona and New Mexico and California, and then
you don't have the issue of western expansion, then you
don't have the primary issue that caused the secession, or
(01:00:55):
maybe you put that off, you know past you know,
past a Lincoln presidency in eighteen six, eighteen seventies. Maybe
there's a point, I mean, because there's a certain an
argument here that slavery was going to die a natural death,
that civil war was not necessary to get rid of
the institution. And so if the Civil war's delayed ten
years or twenty years, maybe we never fight the Civil war.
(01:01:16):
And if we don't have the question of western expansion
and whether that's whether that it's for your slave, maybe
we do avoid the Civil War. So, you know, maybe
if we end up fighting the civil wars, different if
we don't have the territories that we have the silver
in Colorado and Nevada and things like that, and that
probably would have hurt the Union, but maybe we managed
to avoid that the Civil War altogether. If we haven't,
(01:01:37):
you know, if we don't have the fight over whether
the West is for your slave.
Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
If a large portion of California gold ends up in
Confederate coffers during that time, and they're able to purchase
some additional naval assets and perhaps they're able to make
that Union blockade less effective, then does Confederacy hold on
long enough to where the Union forces in the Union
(01:02:01):
States simply become so tired of the ongoing war that
we do end up with the Confederate States and a
Union States of America or United States.
Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Keeping the South separated was so such an important part
of how the Union fought the South that when we
were talking about that, you know, there was Union forces
in Texas to try to stop them from getting getting
supplies through Mexico essentially, And so if that's ineffective, that
could certainly, I mean, I don't know that they would
(01:02:32):
have had to have extended their fighting capability all that long.
There were certainly points where, you know, the idea of
the North negotiating a peace because we're just sick of
fighting it, and that doesn't seem like we can win anyway,
it doesn't seem like they can win. That seems like
a realistic we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
I mean, we talked about before, what if Spain gets
those resources. You know that a significant part of US
growth is southern California. And it's not just the gold rush,
because it follows with the oil. I mean that that
was our prime, very source of oil for a long time.
So if it turned out that Ashley's one hundred does
not give us good paths through the Sierra Nevadas, if
that turns out that southern California winds up either in
(01:03:09):
the hands of Confederacy or the hands of Mexico, or
I guess the hands of the British. Are the Russians
seemed a little less likely. I mean, just the not
having that gold and not having that oil. Surely that
could have shifted the Civil War. Surely that could have
shifted I mean, this idea of America's wealth and our
great resource wealth and material wealth. Maybe we don't industrialize
(01:03:30):
nearly as much if we don't have the California oil,
and maybe, you know, maybe we are a very very
different nation and maybe a nation that doesn't have nearly
as much material. People are fond of saying America's the
rich's country of the world. That's not necessarily true, but
I mean to an extent that it's true. Our whole
lifestyle could be different because that gold was that the
gold was critical development mid century, and the oil was
(01:03:51):
critical to development at end of century into the twentieth century.
So I guess when we start speculating, you know what,
if the Confederates had taken Texas, then that really is
or Ted taken California. The real question is if anybody
had taken California, how different would the US be.
Speaker 4 (01:04:07):
Everyone focuses on American oil. Will all comes from Texas?
Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
No, Yeah, it was. It was a top producer for
a very long time. But I think there's at least
way up there in terms of oil production. And was
I mean early on, I mean, I guess the first
well was in Pennsylvania, right, But early on California was
by far the biggest producer, and that was a huge
part of American growth and development. It is hard to
imagine the the was it the morocc right, that was
(01:04:34):
that was the California. It's hard to imagine the moroc
Indians ever being able to take the economic advantages that
was coming out of that, you know that actually if
the Spanish, I mean they were kind of there ahead
of us, and we're already building you know, cities and
stuff like that. Yeah, it is. It is cool when
we talk about stuff. It is cool that, you know,
I think, you know, people know names like Napoleon, but
(01:04:54):
I don't think people know things like, you know, William
Sublatt or Jedediah Smith, you know, or Jim Beckworth, maybe
Jim Bridger maybe not. It's kind of interesting to be
talking in great Man theory with names that might be unfamiliar.
I mean, how many people watch The Revenant and didn't
know his name is? You Glass? I mean, so these
names are people that were important even though and actually
(01:05:17):
end up on mountain peaks and passes and rivers and
lakes and all this sort of stuff. It's interesting when
we talk about great Man because I would say that
the vast majority of even American population more or less
world population, doesn't know these names at all. Yeah, And
so it makes you wonder how many, especially given you
know how much the world has been explored with time,
it makes you wonder how many other people they were
(01:05:37):
that had the guts to you know, pick up, you know,
pick up a horse and a gun and go just
out in the middle of nowhere and try to make
something out of it. And actually that's the reason that
there's even you know, civilization there where there is today.
And how many of those names do we not know?
There were lots of extraordinary men who were maybe individually
more important to the course of events than a Napoleon
(01:05:57):
or a Hitler, who might have you know, some would
have risen to that occasion any which way. There may
be were great men that were even greater than the
ones that we think of as great men, and we
don't even remember their names.
Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the History
Guy podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode of counterfactual history,
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