September 18, 2025 • 31 mins
"We understand each other, and we are saying we share the same humanity."
In this episode, Drew sits down just outside Shanghai with Rao Rao, Hoffman China teacher trainee, co-founder and CEO of the Hoffman China Center, and seasoned business leader.
In June of 2024, life pushed Rao Rao in the direction of Hoffman. She'd been doing healing work after a series of events that caused her to turn inward. Already immersed in the world of Vipassana meditation when she came to the Process, she was determined to end her suffering and felt that would happen if she could get to the ego-less state. But at her Process, her teacher told her she needed to be messier. That she needed to let herself grow, to speak up for herself, to do what she wants rather than what she thinks she should do. This was the beginning of her big internal transformation.
Listen in to hear the beautiful, embodied stories of this transformational shift, including a moment with a hawk while seated on Guardian Rock at the Petaluma retreat site.
This is exciting news about the establishment of the first Hoffman Process center in China. Rao Rao describes why there is a great need for Hoffman in China at this time. She shares that we are all the same in our capacity to feel and be present in our hearts.
You can discover more about China Hoffman in this article: Hoffman Process® Launches in China.
More about Rao Rao:
Rao Rao holds an M.Sc. in Management Research from Saïd Business School, University of Oxford. She also holds master’s and bachelor’s degrees in Materials Science and Engineering from Tsinghua University. She is the co-founder and CEO of the Hoffman China Center and a Hoffman teacher trainee. She is a seasoned business leader with nearly two decades of experience in consulting, marketing, strategy, and operations across industries such as consumer goods, TMT, and internet ventures. Driven by her passion for human consciousness and organizational transformation, she transitioned from corporate leadership in 2022 to pursue this mission. Since April 2024, she has served as a consultant for Evolve Foundation Fund and has spearheaded the launch of the Hoffman Process in China.
Rao Rao resides in Shanghai with her husband, Yuekui, their two daughters, Yaoyao and Nannan, and their golden hamster, Xiaobai.
Listen on Apple Podcasts
As mentioned in this episode:
About Bo Shao:
Bo Shao is a successful serial entrepreneur and venture capitalist. In 2018, he stepped away from all commercial activities to devote himself entirely to philanthropy. Bo invested his own money to start the Evolve Foundation. Evolve aims to increase the happiness of the entire society and raise the consciousness level of humanity.
Hoffman teachers:
Raz Ingrasci - Listen to Raz on the Hoffman Podcast: Husband, Father, Son
Volker Krohn - Listen to Volker on the Hoffman Podcast: Re-Initiated Into the Family of Humanity
Caroline Guan - General Manager for Evolve Institute in China
More on the research done on the Hoffman Process
Vipassana meditation and retreat
Ego death
"The way out is through."
(From the Hoffman Process Integration Manual)
Guardian Rock, photo by Drew Horning
Guardian Rock
Hoffman Process Retreat Center, Petaluma, California
Guardian Rock can be accessed by following a hiking trail up one of the hills on the site. It overlooks a stunning valley.
Petaluma's name originates from the Miwok village of Péta Lúuma, located on the banks of the Petaluma River. read more...
Eagles in Petaluma, California -
Bald Eagles and Golden Eagles.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When I realized that shame, I felt that,
you know, burning fire on my on my
face, on my neck. I didn't escape. I
think that's the first time I didn't escape
from my shame,
the pain caused by it. I stayed there
and
magic happens.
Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and
(00:22):
this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute,
and it's stories and anecdotes
and people we interview
about their life post process and how it
lives in the world radiating love.
(00:47):
Raul Raul.
Welcome.
Hi, Drew. It is so good to have
you here. I feel so privileged to be
here. Interviewed by you, my teacher.
Yeah. So just just a little bit of
a context. We are in China. We're just
just outside Shanghai.
Yes. And I'm here to support your
(01:09):
cohort,
the first ever cohort
in a training Yeah. To be Hoffman teachers
to For China. For China
to open an institute in China. Never before
has an institute been in China.
What are we, four days in?
We are yeah. The fourth day of the
six day workshop. Fourth day of the six
(01:30):
day workshop. Okay. So,
would you introduce yourself a little bit? Tell
us a little bit about
who you are.
Who am I? Yeah. You know, this is
a question people ask when you peel off
all your tags and really who you are,
but I will use tags.
I'm a mother of two beautiful girls. I'm
(01:51):
a wife.
I'm a I'm the CEO of the upcoming
Hoffman China Institute. I'm also a Hoffman teacher
trainee
being trained by Chris Sternjoo right now.
When did you do your process?
Last summer.
June.
June
(02:12):
last summer.
Your story is interesting in how you came
to Hoffman
and why you took the process.
Well, I think in short,
Hoffman found me.
Life pushed me to Hoffman. But the story
is like,
I've been working in the business world for
nearly twenty years.
(02:33):
At the point, I felt I need more
meaning and
fulfillment
from working, and I couldn't get it in
my past roles. So I basically, like, retired
from the corporate world
for a couple of years just exploring
new things and also start intensive internal work.
And at the beginning of last year,
(02:55):
very interesting, one of my friend recommend me
to
join one of Bo's,
offline sharing.
So tell me more about Bo. Who is
this guy Bo that is bringing Hoffman to
China?
So Bo is a very successful
serial entrepreneur
and later on venture capitalist.
But then I think since
(03:17):
2018,
he left the, you know, the venture capital.
He cofounded
Matrix and then,
invest his own money
to start it Evolve Foundation,
which is aims for
increase the happiness of the whole
society and increase the conscious level of humanity.
(03:39):
The Evolve Foundation invested in, you know, meditation
labs,
parenting labs, things like that. And
Bo took the process, I think,
around eighty years ago. Actually,
his wife took the process first.
And he told me that when he pick
up his wife at end of the process,
(03:59):
the first sight he saw her, he thinks,
wow.
She looks different.
How magical this process is. I wanna try.
That's why he he went to the pros,
and they helped him a lot. Since then,
he had this idea of bringing this to
China. And I think at the beginning of,
last year, he started to talk with RAS,
(04:21):
with Volker.
They had some discussions of the possibility.
And then later on,
Caroline met me.
I agreed to have a try, and then
I committed.
So that's how we started the whole thing,
and board generously founded the whole thing. You
need to invest a lot at the upfront
to train the teachers. The Hoffman training is
(04:42):
so rigorous, and we need to learn so
much. And we have to learn in English,
so we have to fly again again to
US, and US teachers have to fly again
again to China. That's that's huge investment.
Paul founded all this.
I'm so grateful.
So he was doing one of the his
own sharing
(05:03):
offline in Beijing, so I was recommended to
join that
salon.
And on the spot, I saw Caroline.
We were
colleagues, like, a decade ago. So I never
never seen her since we left. Who's Caroline?
Caroline is actually the evolved China head. Oh,
okay. So we, like, reunion, and we we
(05:26):
we
had a great conversation.
And afterwards, Caroline has asked me,
we are thinking to bring Hoffman
process to China. We are looking for someone
who can do that. Would you be interested?
That's the first time I've
heard of this. Yep. And so part as
part of that,
she said, would you first take the process?
(05:49):
No. She sent me the link. Oh, okay.
So I searched on website. I was so
touched by the testimonial videos on the on
your website. I see the
light
in the face of the graduates and the
story they're telling about their life is so
touching and moving. And then I deliver research
on LGBT.
(06:09):
It tells me that there are actually mainstream
psychological
research papers
demonstrating
how effective it is and why it works.
That makes me
have higher interests.
The fact that there was research on it.
Yes. So
Caroline Bo interviewed me. I said, I will
take the process first and see if really
(06:31):
touches me, and I will onboard if it
is.
So that's
how
I come to the process last summer. Okay.
So you do the paperwork. We have a
pre call. Yes. And I remember the the
pre call.
I was actually
tears burst out on my eyes even during
that half an hour prequel. So you were
(06:52):
ready?
I'm so ready. I've been exploring
my inner world for almost seven years at
that point. I've been to Vipassana
retreat. I've been practicing Vipassana every day for
over half a year already at that time.
Until you show up on-site, or, you know,
the other side of the world. Yeah.
And what happens? Take us into your process.
(07:16):
Some moments in time that stick out.
Battling jet lag or the language barrier.
Yeah. Language barrier, definitely.
I have no problem listening to teachers in
the classroom,
but I couldn't follow the small talks during
the dinner and lunch. I still wanted to
get acquainted with my classmates.
(07:37):
I follow two people chatting with each other.
I can follow, but then suddenly, the third
person jumping in and the topics drew away,
and I was got lost. I'm like, what
they were talking about?
Yeah. That caused a lot of my patterns,
actually.
The fact that you couldn't quite track what
was happening in the conversations over the mealtime.
They all know each other so well after
(07:57):
several meals, but I felt I was left
alone. And then I think the first,
like, lightning moment
is during one on one. You told me
that you are such a nice girl,
always smiling,
pleasing others. But you know what? You didn't
give any space for yourself to grow inside.
You need to be messier.
(08:19):
That's you too. And then it's like, what?
I need to be messier first? And I
never thought about that. Because when I, like,
doing my Vipassana, I was thinking,
get to the place where
no ego. You know what I'm saying? I
want to get out of all the sufferings
so I know our ego is the cause
of the all these sufferings. I need to
(08:40):
be there. But then suddenly someone tell me,
you didn't let yourself grow first. There is
no way to go there. You need to
really grow yourself.
Speak up for your needs. Do what you
want instead of only doing what you think
you should do.
Rah, Rah, you're saying something interesting here is
that your history of being in Vipassana,
(09:01):
where the death of the ego Yeah. And
you thought that's what we're doing here. And
yet,
here your teacher is telling you, actually,
wait. You're not gonna get all this neat
kind of stuff. First, you gotta get messy.
Yes. Okay. So then what happened? I'm a
good student. I like I devote myself into
all the activities teachers asked to do, and
(09:22):
I really, really
enjoyed
almost every moment of the seven days. But
the magic moment
on day four in the compassion experience,
I was on the garden rock under a
beautiful big tree doing meditation.
I was cheering up because during my meditation,
(09:43):
I literally see I am doing the Hoffman
process. I'm bringing it to China and see
how it changed a lot of people's life.
So I was so certain
this is it. This is something
that I've been looking for
for so long.
And
when I finished my meditation, when I opened
my eyes, a black eagle
(10:04):
flew through my side and up to the
sky.
And it was so magic
because I was falling in love with eagles
the first time I was on that side.
During every break of the class, I went
out of the classroom,
I look upon. I want to see the
eagles. When I see them playing,
it's so beautiful.
(10:25):
It is so free.
It is so grace.
So when I open my eyes, the ego
flies through by my side.
I know
this is the signal that universe
give it to me.
And you're not talking metaphorically, Raarau. The eagle
actually flew right next to you. Yes. I
literally felt the wind that caused by its
(10:48):
flow of flying.
He was that close. That close. Yes. Like
felt the wind. Yes. Wow.
And I actually have no idea. Probably, he
stayed by my side for a for a
while.
And so this idea
of
you having this vision of bringing the process
to China,
(11:08):
it felt like the ego was saying yes.
Yes. It's confirming
what I've
seen in my meditation.
And so you took that as a sign?
Yes. I think that's,
definitely, it's a sign from the universe
telling me to say yes
and to devote
the following years of my life to this
(11:29):
work. Beautiful.
One of the things that
you also did is you also
it wasn't just about your future and your
professional
visioning that you had, but you also went
deep into the work in the inner work.
And you went into your past and Yeah.
That's right. Some of your childhood stuff. What
(11:49):
did you learn?
I remember during our pre call,
I think at the first few sentences, you
told me,
when you were little,
you were left out alone for so many
times for such a long period of time.
And that single sentence made me cry.
Like, I realized, wow.
(12:11):
As a little child, so how lonely I
have been. Yeah. And I was just really
feeding back your paperwork to you. Right?
Yes. You had put it in your paperwork.
Okay. So lots of time alone.
And then what else? I I think there
was a story about grades
and Yes. Coming home. Can you share that
(12:32):
story when you were little? How old were
you? When I was six years old, that's
the first
big exam after I entered the elementary school.
There are two exams.
I got 98.
Just to confirm this,
six years old. Yes. There's two big exams
Yes. Nationally in China. Oh, well, no. In
(12:52):
the school. So every student took that exam,
one math, one Chinese.
Wow. At six.
Well, we have exams at the end of
every semester.
They used to rank students by their scores
when I was at my school age, but
nowadays, it's not allowed. Oh, they're not allowed
to anymore? No. It's doing harm to students.
(13:12):
Yes. It's caused too many anxiety.
But back then, score is huge in the
exams. So you come home
with two ninety eights. Yeah. So the total
score is 100 for each. I got two
ninety eight. I actually was very happy. I
remember me, like, almost jumping back home, you
know, singing, jumping, thinking, wow.
(13:34):
I'm going to tell mom. She will way
home. Yeah. She will praise me. You know?
I probably get a hug from her.
But then I never thought that there is
no hug. There is no praise. I couldn't
even sit on the chair. I was standing
there. I think she's scolding me for almost,
like, half an hour. She's asking,
why did you lose two scores in each
(13:55):
of these exams?
Why didn't you get to 100?
Instead of 98. Instead of 98.
I think that moment
prongs the seed of in me of you
shouldn't make any mistake.
And if you made even a tiny
mistake, you will be punished.
You will not be recognized.
(14:16):
Probably at that time, I think I felt
I'm unloved.
I'm unlovable.
I need to get her love
only if
I make no mistake,
get to 100,
be the top one,
be the number one
in everywhere I am.
I would say that's a huge drive in
my little life. I think by which
(14:40):
I went to the best university in China.
I also went to the best university
of the world. I had my career success
at
the early thirties. I was in the top,
you know, consulting firm, earning a lot of
money,
things like that. So that six year old
learned that lesson
Yes. And learned it really well. In my
(15:01):
blood. In my blood. Before 18, before the
college entrance exam,
When I look back, like, every day, I
live under anxiety. That's that's a background noise
always there.
Do not make mistake. Be the number one.
If you cannot get into Tsinghua,
you are nobody.
And it drove you. It drove me. Yeah.
(15:22):
That's what I'm saying. It drove me, but
the process is so painful. You know? Every
day, you're under such
anxiety.
You're so afraid of making mistakes so that
you are afraid of getting into life.
I am so afraid of making any mistake
to an extent
that I couldn't get into life.
(15:44):
Wow.
That narrative
feels like it's
working for the most part, and yet it's
creating anxiety. Yes. You know, you're kind of
putting it together.
What happens? Does it fall apart all at
once? Or does it do the cracks slowly
begin to appear?
Like, take us into your adult life. You're
now how old, and when does it begin
(16:07):
to come crashing down?
I'm now 45.
But when I look back, I actually
had this constant
anxiety
in my life since I was little.
I think the first crack out, the word
you used,
I was at my 30. I just gave
birth to my first daughter. I returned back
(16:28):
to work, which I was a consultant.
The work is so intense, you know, long
hours, and I couldn't handle it. That's my
first breakdown, I guess. I couldn't fall asleep
at night, and I woke up at 3AM
every morning. And I had to pull myself
together to get to client's office to do
the work, and so painful.
And to the point that I actually
(16:51):
tell the company that I couldn't do the
consulting role anymore.
So I transformed to an internal role, which
is basically the end of your career in
consulting's track.
And so in having your daughter, it was
just too much?
And so then what happens?
Then I try to find roles in corporate,
and
(17:11):
it goes well. I got what I want.
I gradually become a general manager of in
a Internet company.
But during the process, my husband and I
divorced. So that's another big hit. That's probably
the real life crisis I've ever had in
my adult life.
The divorce? The divorce.
What's another moment in time where the cracks
(17:34):
begin to appear
in this old narrative that if you're perfect,
everything will work out fine. Get the hundreds
all the time, and your life will be
well taken care of.
I think it's
when I knew that I I was going
to divorce my husband,
one of the biggest
(17:56):
pain I've been through at the time is
that
I used to hold so much hope on
my daughter.
I spent a lot on her education.
I thought I would give her the best
of all.
But then in the end, when she was
only three and a half years old,
I couldn't even give her a whole family.
(18:19):
She lost at least part of
her father's love
and time spending with her.
Because you had her?
We were actually living in two different cities,
so he can visit her, but
it's not that frequent.
That contrast
of you wanting her to succeed and achieve
(18:40):
and yet having this realization
that you couldn't even give her A whole
family. A whole family.
So then what happens?
I think that's the time where I deny
my
value
as a woman.
Totally, the divorce, the effect it has on
me in many ways, but fundamentally,
(19:01):
it destroyed
my self value.
I thought everything I've done in the past
is meaningless.
You try so hard.
You think you are successful, but at the
end of the day,
you know, as a woman, you couldn't even
keep your marriage.
It's a total failure. So I think what's
the point?
(19:22):
I used to have this high hope of
my daughter and currently,
like, I I have no expectation on you
at all because
if you are becoming like me,
would I want my daughter to go through
the pain I've been through?
No.
I don't.
And that's where, for the very first time,
(19:44):
I start look inward. You know, the all
the external methods
does not work anymore. I have to.
That's where I start getting in touch with
meditation,
coaching, a lot of inner growth work. And
sometimes we pull ourselves into the future. We're
drawn to a better way of being, and
(20:05):
sometimes we get pushed
by Yeah. Circumstances.
Yeah. Actually, pain, tragedy in life, sometimes the
best
teacher or at least
lead you
into the right role. Right?
Yeah.
So you go inward. You
stop turning outward and instead enter the inner
(20:27):
landscape of your psyche. And I imagine it
nets good results.
What does that lead you to do?
What are some of the outcomes as a
result of that inner work?
I probably never rebelled during my
teenage age.
Such a good girl, good daughter, good student,
good employee, you know, everything.
(20:48):
But then I divorced at 34.
So during that years, I
started a little bit work on therapy.
One time, my therapist told me, you know
what? If you never rebelled, you better rebel
now.
Otherwise, if you don't rebel all your life,
you basically never lived.
And I realized I have no boundary with
(21:09):
my parents, especially my mom.
I realized that I do not need to
obey
my mom or my boss all the time,
you know, all the authority figures in my
life.
I could have my own souls, own wants,
own needs, and I could do something,
you know, maybe by all kinds of standards,
it's not so good. But if I want,
(21:30):
I just do it. I experiment with my
life since then.
You started doing some living.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
And then what happens? And then, you know,
magically,
when you really
leave your own
more authentically
things, my husband come back to me
after four years.
(21:52):
We get back together. We remarried. We have
our second daughter.
Yeah. That's just one manifestation
of
what life can give you. But, also, in
my career, I mentioned I achieved the highest
position in my corporate career at that time.
Wow. Lots of good stuff happening. You you
get what you wanted professionally, achieving the highest
(22:13):
position. Yes. You get back together with your
husband. Yes. You You had another I had
another daughter. Another daughter. You start living and
experimenting and exploring and allowing
that little
rebel at times to come out.
And then that was when you were
late thirties?
30,
40,
(22:34):
and then this work is so intense.
I think, basically, at that time, I still
wants to get outside,
external acknowledgment.
I thought if I get to that position,
if I get that title, if I get
that salary,
I'd be
loved, accepted.
That's still unconsciously operating. There's the do, have,
(22:54):
be.
Exactly.
But then I increasingly
felt tired.
Basically,
couldn't find the meaning, the fulfillment I really
want
in my work.
And I'm a question myself why I'm sacrificing
my time spent with my family doing this
work just for a title, which probably couldn't
get anymore.
(23:14):
Why?
Like, what for? And that's at the point
I think I was 40. I retired from
the corporate work, and I started exploring.
And later on during the integration weekend,
I look back my student workbook. I see
the sentence pop up so strongly.
The way out is through.
(23:35):
Like, I totally get.
Ever since after,
I
kept consciously remind myself,
are you running away from
the pain
right now? Are you trying to
running away from the pain by doing something?
If, yes, I take a deep breath,
(23:58):
ask myself what happened inside of me,
what I'm feeling now,
I stay there.
And every time it turned out magically,
there's no one's failing me. As long as
I can remember to re remind myself. I'm
not saying that I can always do that.
It's very hard.
You know, the mundane life's
(24:19):
it's like gravity. You cannot escape it. Like,
it's so hard to live moment by moment.
Many of the times, you you you are
not at present moment.
You are living in your head worrying about
the future, regretting about the past.
It's very difficult to remind yourself.
But as long as I can remember, take
a deep breath.
(24:39):
Look at inside. Things will
change. Stay with the pain. Stay with the
pain. Yeah. And it will goes away. It
will go away. It will go. It's not
as frightened as you unconsciously
afraid of.
What is emotion?
It's
e,
motion, meaning energy,
emotion.
That is emotion. Oh. So So good. Yeah.
(25:03):
So just I love that. Just energy. If
you don't escape from it, it will slow
through your body. It will go out. It
will return to the light. So you just
experience.
That's the whole point of being a human.
You experience all kinds of emotions
flowing through your body.
That's the thing.
Is this part of the reason why you
(25:24):
wanna be a Hoffman teacher? Definitely. I think
in modern society.
Like, the whole modern education system, I think
whether China or Western world, it's just basically
the same.
We put all the emphasis
on our brain. We train our intellect so
well,
but it dominates, and we never tell people
(25:44):
we also have emotions
and is not
frightened and just stay with it. It'll flow
through. I did this experiment,
later in my career.
Sometimes after meeting, I will ask the people
in the classroom. I said, what are you
feeling right now? You know, nine out of
10, they will say, well, I feel like
just now that point is not right. Things
(26:06):
like that. So they are talking about their
sorts.
Their intellect? Their intellect. They are talking about
Oh, okay. The thoughts the thoughts. Yeah. The
the analysis, the opinions.
They do not know what is emotion. Like,
it's sad.
What do you think the cost is of
not knowing
what we feel?
You disconnect
(26:28):
with yourself.
You are trapped in this
intellect dominating,
external grabbing
life.
You thought you can do,
have, and be happy.
That's the trap. That's the downward.
Squirrel? Spiral. Spiral. Converse spiral, which you just
(26:48):
unconsciously
autopilot
live your everyday life, which later at time
you you you realize you didn't live.
You do not live a life if you
cannot feel the emotion.
As you're describing, your hands are expressive. They're
moving.
Your eyes are closed. You're in the embodied
experience
(27:09):
of describing it.
Mhmm. So do you feel like there's a
market for Hoffman in China? How do you
think it's gonna go?
I think the needs
are huge.
People think
people are different, like, from different country, different
skin color, different language, different culture.
But, actually,
in the bottom of our heart,
(27:31):
we are so
similar. And the the core thing that we
are similar because we feel
the same no matter what happened outside.
When we feel pain, that pain, that anger,
that shame,
everybody feel it the same way. In that
sense,
we understand each other, and we are saying
we share the same
(27:53):
humanity.
So what you've seen as a health plan
teacher in US, six months waiting list. Right?
If the need is so huge in US,
it will be the same in China.
And I imagine it's exciting. I see the
energy in the 10 of you as the
inaugural
team
of Hoffman teachers bringing it to this country.
(28:16):
We'll put a link, by the way, to
some of what we talked about in the
show notes. So if you wanna check out
about BOW and Evolve
and what they're doing in the initial stages
here, bringing Kauffman to China.
It's such a great group of
10 of you. Different,
but also
(28:36):
deeply committed to the work.
Yeah. I think every one of us,
since we experience a process of self,
we experience a healing inside ourselves.
We are so committed to bring it to
China to serve
whoever really wants to change
to help their transformation happen. Well, thank you
(28:59):
for doing that. Thank you for
for spearheading
this journey, being the first of the Chinese
to come over, take it, and you're gonna
be the chief executive officer.
Yes. And Bo will be the chairman. Bo
will be the chair of the board. Yeah.
That's really exciting.
And thanks for hosting me here in China.
(29:19):
It is so hot.
It is so hot, but I've had some
amazing food.
Dinner two nights ago was chicken feet.
But I'm learning a lot my Chinese, practicing
some words.
Zhu is a genius in learning foreign kind
of language.
Language,
it's so there are words
(29:40):
that you say that we just do not
have in our language. So we have to
shape our mouths differently Yes. Than we ever
have before Yes. To create the word that
that you use. Yes. But, I mean, it's
amazing
that you're learning in English.
Yeah. We have to. Right?
Because now the Hoffman teacher in the whole
world speak Chinese, so we have to learn
(30:02):
English. And then translating it to Chinese? Yes.
We have a small team working on the
localization right now. The localization where you'll modify
and adjust
and bring some of it to make it
relevant
Yes. Exactly. To Chinese. Chinese culture. Yeah. Raul
Raul.
Thank you.
Thank you, Zhu. I feel so privileged.
(30:23):
It's been great to have this conversation with
you on the other side of the world.
It's great to have you here in China
to host you. I love it. Thanks, everybody.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
(30:43):
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and
president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Razzi Ingrassi,
Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute
Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In
themselves, in each other and in the world.
To find out more, please go to hoffmaninstitute.org.
When I realized that shame, I felt that,
you know, burning fire on my on my
face, on my neck. I didn't escape. I
think that's the first time I didn't escape
from my shame,
the pain caused by it. I stayed there
and
magic happens.
Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and
(00:22):
this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute,
and it's stories and anecdotes
and people we interview
about their life post process and how it
lives in the world radiating love.
(00:47):
Raul Raul.
Welcome.
Hi, Drew. It is so good to have
you here. I feel so privileged to be
here. Interviewed by you, my teacher.
Yeah. So just just a little bit of
a context. We are in China. We're just
just outside Shanghai.
Yes. And I'm here to support your
(01:09):
cohort,
the first ever cohort
in a training Yeah. To be Hoffman teachers
to For China. For China
to open an institute in China. Never before
has an institute been in China.
What are we, four days in?
We are yeah. The fourth day of the
six day workshop. Fourth day of the six
(01:30):
day workshop. Okay. So,
would you introduce yourself a little bit? Tell
us a little bit about
who you are.
Who am I? Yeah. You know, this is
a question people ask when you peel off
all your tags and really who you are,
but I will use tags.
I'm a mother of two beautiful girls. I'm
(01:51):
a wife.
I'm a I'm the CEO of the upcoming
Hoffman China Institute. I'm also a Hoffman teacher
trainee
being trained by Chris Sternjoo right now.
When did you do your process?
Last summer.
June.
June
(02:12):
last summer.
Your story is interesting in how you came
to Hoffman
and why you took the process.
Well, I think in short,
Hoffman found me.
Life pushed me to Hoffman. But the story
is like,
I've been working in the business world for
nearly twenty years.
(02:33):
At the point, I felt I need more
meaning and
fulfillment
from working, and I couldn't get it in
my past roles. So I basically, like, retired
from the corporate world
for a couple of years just exploring
new things and also start intensive internal work.
And at the beginning of last year,
(02:55):
very interesting, one of my friend recommend me
to
join one of Bo's,
offline sharing.
So tell me more about Bo. Who is
this guy Bo that is bringing Hoffman to
China?
So Bo is a very successful
serial entrepreneur
and later on venture capitalist.
But then I think since
(03:17):
2018,
he left the, you know, the venture capital.
He cofounded
Matrix and then,
invest his own money
to start it Evolve Foundation,
which is aims for
increase the happiness of the whole
society and increase the conscious level of humanity.
(03:39):
The Evolve Foundation invested in, you know, meditation
labs,
parenting labs, things like that. And
Bo took the process, I think,
around eighty years ago. Actually,
his wife took the process first.
And he told me that when he pick
up his wife at end of the process,
(03:59):
the first sight he saw her, he thinks,
wow.
She looks different.
How magical this process is. I wanna try.
That's why he he went to the pros,
and they helped him a lot. Since then,
he had this idea of bringing this to
China. And I think at the beginning of,
last year, he started to talk with RAS,
(04:21):
with Volker.
They had some discussions of the possibility.
And then later on,
Caroline met me.
I agreed to have a try, and then
I committed.
So that's how we started the whole thing,
and board generously founded the whole thing. You
need to invest a lot at the upfront
to train the teachers. The Hoffman training is
(04:42):
so rigorous, and we need to learn so
much. And we have to learn in English,
so we have to fly again again to
US, and US teachers have to fly again
again to China. That's that's huge investment.
Paul founded all this.
I'm so grateful.
So he was doing one of the his
own sharing
(05:03):
offline in Beijing, so I was recommended to
join that
salon.
And on the spot, I saw Caroline.
We were
colleagues, like, a decade ago. So I never
never seen her since we left. Who's Caroline?
Caroline is actually the evolved China head. Oh,
okay. So we, like, reunion, and we we
(05:26):
we
had a great conversation.
And afterwards, Caroline has asked me,
we are thinking to bring Hoffman
process to China. We are looking for someone
who can do that. Would you be interested?
That's the first time I've
heard of this. Yep. And so part as
part of that,
she said, would you first take the process?
(05:49):
No. She sent me the link. Oh, okay.
So I searched on website. I was so
touched by the testimonial videos on the on
your website. I see the
light
in the face of the graduates and the
story they're telling about their life is so
touching and moving. And then I deliver research
on LGBT.
(06:09):
It tells me that there are actually mainstream
psychological
research papers
demonstrating
how effective it is and why it works.
That makes me
have higher interests.
The fact that there was research on it.
Yes. So
Caroline Bo interviewed me. I said, I will
take the process first and see if really
(06:31):
touches me, and I will onboard if it
is.
So that's
how
I come to the process last summer. Okay.
So you do the paperwork. We have a
pre call. Yes. And I remember the the
pre call.
I was actually
tears burst out on my eyes even during
that half an hour prequel. So you were
(06:52):
ready?
I'm so ready. I've been exploring
my inner world for almost seven years at
that point. I've been to Vipassana
retreat. I've been practicing Vipassana every day for
over half a year already at that time.
Until you show up on-site, or, you know,
the other side of the world. Yeah.
And what happens? Take us into your process.
(07:16):
Some moments in time that stick out.
Battling jet lag or the language barrier.
Yeah. Language barrier, definitely.
I have no problem listening to teachers in
the classroom,
but I couldn't follow the small talks during
the dinner and lunch. I still wanted to
get acquainted with my classmates.
(07:37):
I follow two people chatting with each other.
I can follow, but then suddenly, the third
person jumping in and the topics drew away,
and I was got lost. I'm like, what
they were talking about?
Yeah. That caused a lot of my patterns,
actually.
The fact that you couldn't quite track what
was happening in the conversations over the mealtime.
They all know each other so well after
(07:57):
several meals, but I felt I was left
alone. And then I think the first,
like, lightning moment
is during one on one. You told me
that you are such a nice girl,
always smiling,
pleasing others. But you know what? You didn't
give any space for yourself to grow inside.
You need to be messier.
(08:19):
That's you too. And then it's like, what?
I need to be messier first? And I
never thought about that. Because when I, like,
doing my Vipassana, I was thinking,
get to the place where
no ego. You know what I'm saying? I
want to get out of all the sufferings
so I know our ego is the cause
of the all these sufferings. I need to
(08:40):
be there. But then suddenly someone tell me,
you didn't let yourself grow first. There is
no way to go there. You need to
really grow yourself.
Speak up for your needs. Do what you
want instead of only doing what you think
you should do.
Rah, Rah, you're saying something interesting here is
that your history of being in Vipassana,
(09:01):
where the death of the ego Yeah. And
you thought that's what we're doing here. And
yet,
here your teacher is telling you, actually,
wait. You're not gonna get all this neat
kind of stuff. First, you gotta get messy.
Yes. Okay. So then what happened? I'm a
good student. I like I devote myself into
all the activities teachers asked to do, and
(09:22):
I really, really
enjoyed
almost every moment of the seven days. But
the magic moment
on day four in the compassion experience,
I was on the garden rock under a
beautiful big tree doing meditation.
I was cheering up because during my meditation,
(09:43):
I literally see I am doing the Hoffman
process. I'm bringing it to China and see
how it changed a lot of people's life.
So I was so certain
this is it. This is something
that I've been looking for
for so long.
And
when I finished my meditation, when I opened
my eyes, a black eagle
(10:04):
flew through my side and up to the
sky.
And it was so magic
because I was falling in love with eagles
the first time I was on that side.
During every break of the class, I went
out of the classroom,
I look upon. I want to see the
eagles. When I see them playing,
it's so beautiful.
(10:25):
It is so free.
It is so grace.
So when I open my eyes, the ego
flies through by my side.
I know
this is the signal that universe
give it to me.
And you're not talking metaphorically, Raarau. The eagle
actually flew right next to you. Yes. I
literally felt the wind that caused by its
(10:48):
flow of flying.
He was that close. That close. Yes. Like
felt the wind. Yes. Wow.
And I actually have no idea. Probably, he
stayed by my side for a for a
while.
And so this idea
of
you having this vision of bringing the process
to China,
(11:08):
it felt like the ego was saying yes.
Yes. It's confirming
what I've
seen in my meditation.
And so you took that as a sign?
Yes. I think that's,
definitely, it's a sign from the universe
telling me to say yes
and to devote
the following years of my life to this
(11:29):
work. Beautiful.
One of the things that
you also did is you also
it wasn't just about your future and your
professional
visioning that you had, but you also went
deep into the work in the inner work.
And you went into your past and Yeah.
That's right. Some of your childhood stuff. What
(11:49):
did you learn?
I remember during our pre call,
I think at the first few sentences, you
told me,
when you were little,
you were left out alone for so many
times for such a long period of time.
And that single sentence made me cry.
Like, I realized, wow.
(12:11):
As a little child, so how lonely I
have been. Yeah. And I was just really
feeding back your paperwork to you. Right?
Yes. You had put it in your paperwork.
Okay. So lots of time alone.
And then what else? I I think there
was a story about grades
and Yes. Coming home. Can you share that
(12:32):
story when you were little? How old were
you? When I was six years old, that's
the first
big exam after I entered the elementary school.
There are two exams.
I got 98.
Just to confirm this,
six years old. Yes. There's two big exams
Yes. Nationally in China. Oh, well, no. In
(12:52):
the school. So every student took that exam,
one math, one Chinese.
Wow. At six.
Well, we have exams at the end of
every semester.
They used to rank students by their scores
when I was at my school age, but
nowadays, it's not allowed. Oh, they're not allowed
to anymore? No. It's doing harm to students.
(13:12):
Yes. It's caused too many anxiety.
But back then, score is huge in the
exams. So you come home
with two ninety eights. Yeah. So the total
score is 100 for each. I got two
ninety eight. I actually was very happy. I
remember me, like, almost jumping back home, you
know, singing, jumping, thinking, wow.
(13:34):
I'm going to tell mom. She will way
home. Yeah. She will praise me. You know?
I probably get a hug from her.
But then I never thought that there is
no hug. There is no praise. I couldn't
even sit on the chair. I was standing
there. I think she's scolding me for almost,
like, half an hour. She's asking,
why did you lose two scores in each
(13:55):
of these exams?
Why didn't you get to 100?
Instead of 98. Instead of 98.
I think that moment
prongs the seed of in me of you
shouldn't make any mistake.
And if you made even a tiny
mistake, you will be punished.
You will not be recognized.
(14:16):
Probably at that time, I think I felt
I'm unloved.
I'm unlovable.
I need to get her love
only if
I make no mistake,
get to 100,
be the top one,
be the number one
in everywhere I am.
I would say that's a huge drive in
my little life. I think by which
(14:40):
I went to the best university in China.
I also went to the best university
of the world. I had my career success
at
the early thirties. I was in the top,
you know, consulting firm, earning a lot of
money,
things like that. So that six year old
learned that lesson
Yes. And learned it really well. In my
(15:01):
blood. In my blood. Before 18, before the
college entrance exam,
When I look back, like, every day, I
live under anxiety. That's that's a background noise
always there.
Do not make mistake. Be the number one.
If you cannot get into Tsinghua,
you are nobody.
And it drove you. It drove me. Yeah.
(15:22):
That's what I'm saying. It drove me, but
the process is so painful. You know? Every
day, you're under such
anxiety.
You're so afraid of making mistakes so that
you are afraid of getting into life.
I am so afraid of making any mistake
to an extent
that I couldn't get into life.
(15:44):
Wow.
That narrative
feels like it's
working for the most part, and yet it's
creating anxiety. Yes. You know, you're kind of
putting it together.
What happens? Does it fall apart all at
once? Or does it do the cracks slowly
begin to appear?
Like, take us into your adult life. You're
now how old, and when does it begin
(16:07):
to come crashing down?
I'm now 45.
But when I look back, I actually
had this constant
anxiety
in my life since I was little.
I think the first crack out, the word
you used,
I was at my 30. I just gave
birth to my first daughter. I returned back
(16:28):
to work, which I was a consultant.
The work is so intense, you know, long
hours, and I couldn't handle it. That's my
first breakdown, I guess. I couldn't fall asleep
at night, and I woke up at 3AM
every morning. And I had to pull myself
together to get to client's office to do
the work, and so painful.
And to the point that I actually
(16:51):
tell the company that I couldn't do the
consulting role anymore.
So I transformed to an internal role, which
is basically the end of your career in
consulting's track.
And so in having your daughter, it was
just too much?
And so then what happens?
Then I try to find roles in corporate,
and
(17:11):
it goes well. I got what I want.
I gradually become a general manager of in
a Internet company.
But during the process, my husband and I
divorced. So that's another big hit. That's probably
the real life crisis I've ever had in
my adult life.
The divorce? The divorce.
What's another moment in time where the cracks
(17:34):
begin to appear
in this old narrative that if you're perfect,
everything will work out fine. Get the hundreds
all the time, and your life will be
well taken care of.
I think it's
when I knew that I I was going
to divorce my husband,
one of the biggest
(17:56):
pain I've been through at the time is
that
I used to hold so much hope on
my daughter.
I spent a lot on her education.
I thought I would give her the best
of all.
But then in the end, when she was
only three and a half years old,
I couldn't even give her a whole family.
(18:19):
She lost at least part of
her father's love
and time spending with her.
Because you had her?
We were actually living in two different cities,
so he can visit her, but
it's not that frequent.
That contrast
of you wanting her to succeed and achieve
(18:40):
and yet having this realization
that you couldn't even give her A whole
family. A whole family.
So then what happens?
I think that's the time where I deny
my
value
as a woman.
Totally, the divorce, the effect it has on
me in many ways, but fundamentally,
(19:01):
it destroyed
my self value.
I thought everything I've done in the past
is meaningless.
You try so hard.
You think you are successful, but at the
end of the day,
you know, as a woman, you couldn't even
keep your marriage.
It's a total failure. So I think what's
the point?
(19:22):
I used to have this high hope of
my daughter and currently,
like, I I have no expectation on you
at all because
if you are becoming like me,
would I want my daughter to go through
the pain I've been through?
No.
I don't.
And that's where, for the very first time,
(19:44):
I start look inward. You know, the all
the external methods
does not work anymore. I have to.
That's where I start getting in touch with
meditation,
coaching, a lot of inner growth work. And
sometimes we pull ourselves into the future. We're
drawn to a better way of being, and
(20:05):
sometimes we get pushed
by Yeah. Circumstances.
Yeah. Actually, pain, tragedy in life, sometimes the
best
teacher or at least
lead you
into the right role. Right?
Yeah.
So you go inward. You
stop turning outward and instead enter the inner
(20:27):
landscape of your psyche. And I imagine it
nets good results.
What does that lead you to do?
What are some of the outcomes as a
result of that inner work?
I probably never rebelled during my
teenage age.
Such a good girl, good daughter, good student,
good employee, you know, everything.
(20:48):
But then I divorced at 34.
So during that years, I
started a little bit work on therapy.
One time, my therapist told me, you know
what? If you never rebelled, you better rebel
now.
Otherwise, if you don't rebel all your life,
you basically never lived.
And I realized I have no boundary with
(21:09):
my parents, especially my mom.
I realized that I do not need to
obey
my mom or my boss all the time,
you know, all the authority figures in my
life.
I could have my own souls, own wants,
own needs, and I could do something,
you know, maybe by all kinds of standards,
it's not so good. But if I want,
(21:30):
I just do it. I experiment with my
life since then.
You started doing some living.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
And then what happens? And then, you know,
magically,
when you really
leave your own
more authentically
things, my husband come back to me
after four years.
(21:52):
We get back together. We remarried. We have
our second daughter.
Yeah. That's just one manifestation
of
what life can give you. But, also, in
my career, I mentioned I achieved the highest
position in my corporate career at that time.
Wow. Lots of good stuff happening. You you
get what you wanted professionally, achieving the highest
(22:13):
position. Yes. You get back together with your
husband. Yes. You You had another I had
another daughter. Another daughter. You start living and
experimenting and exploring and allowing
that little
rebel at times to come out.
And then that was when you were
late thirties?
30,
40,
(22:34):
and then this work is so intense.
I think, basically, at that time, I still
wants to get outside,
external acknowledgment.
I thought if I get to that position,
if I get that title, if I get
that salary,
I'd be
loved, accepted.
That's still unconsciously operating. There's the do, have,
(22:54):
be.
Exactly.
But then I increasingly
felt tired.
Basically,
couldn't find the meaning, the fulfillment I really
want
in my work.
And I'm a question myself why I'm sacrificing
my time spent with my family doing this
work just for a title, which probably couldn't
get anymore.
(23:14):
Why?
Like, what for? And that's at the point
I think I was 40. I retired from
the corporate work, and I started exploring.
And later on during the integration weekend,
I look back my student workbook. I see
the sentence pop up so strongly.
The way out is through.
(23:35):
Like, I totally get.
Ever since after,
I
kept consciously remind myself,
are you running away from
the pain
right now? Are you trying to
running away from the pain by doing something?
If, yes, I take a deep breath,
(23:58):
ask myself what happened inside of me,
what I'm feeling now,
I stay there.
And every time it turned out magically,
there's no one's failing me. As long as
I can remember to re remind myself. I'm
not saying that I can always do that.
It's very hard.
You know, the mundane life's
(24:19):
it's like gravity. You cannot escape it. Like,
it's so hard to live moment by moment.
Many of the times, you you you are
not at present moment.
You are living in your head worrying about
the future, regretting about the past.
It's very difficult to remind yourself.
But as long as I can remember, take
a deep breath.
(24:39):
Look at inside. Things will
change. Stay with the pain. Stay with the
pain. Yeah. And it will goes away. It
will go away. It will go. It's not
as frightened as you unconsciously
afraid of.
What is emotion?
It's
e,
motion, meaning energy,
emotion.
That is emotion. Oh. So So good. Yeah.
(25:03):
So just I love that. Just energy. If
you don't escape from it, it will slow
through your body. It will go out. It
will return to the light. So you just
experience.
That's the whole point of being a human.
You experience all kinds of emotions
flowing through your body.
That's the thing.
Is this part of the reason why you
(25:24):
wanna be a Hoffman teacher? Definitely. I think
in modern society.
Like, the whole modern education system, I think
whether China or Western world, it's just basically
the same.
We put all the emphasis
on our brain. We train our intellect so
well,
but it dominates, and we never tell people
(25:44):
we also have emotions
and is not
frightened and just stay with it. It'll flow
through. I did this experiment,
later in my career.
Sometimes after meeting, I will ask the people
in the classroom. I said, what are you
feeling right now? You know, nine out of
10, they will say, well, I feel like
just now that point is not right. Things
(26:06):
like that. So they are talking about their
sorts.
Their intellect? Their intellect. They are talking about
Oh, okay. The thoughts the thoughts. Yeah. The
the analysis, the opinions.
They do not know what is emotion. Like,
it's sad.
What do you think the cost is of
not knowing
what we feel?
You disconnect
(26:28):
with yourself.
You are trapped in this
intellect dominating,
external grabbing
life.
You thought you can do,
have, and be happy.
That's the trap. That's the downward.
Squirrel? Spiral. Spiral. Converse spiral, which you just
(26:48):
unconsciously
autopilot
live your everyday life, which later at time
you you you realize you didn't live.
You do not live a life if you
cannot feel the emotion.
As you're describing, your hands are expressive. They're
moving.
Your eyes are closed. You're in the embodied
experience
(27:09):
of describing it.
Mhmm. So do you feel like there's a
market for Hoffman in China? How do you
think it's gonna go?
I think the needs
are huge.
People think
people are different, like, from different country, different
skin color, different language, different culture.
But, actually,
in the bottom of our heart,
(27:31):
we are so
similar. And the the core thing that we
are similar because we feel
the same no matter what happened outside.
When we feel pain, that pain, that anger,
that shame,
everybody feel it the same way. In that
sense,
we understand each other, and we are saying
we share the same
(27:53):
humanity.
So what you've seen as a health plan
teacher in US, six months waiting list. Right?
If the need is so huge in US,
it will be the same in China.
And I imagine it's exciting. I see the
energy in the 10 of you as the
inaugural
team
of Hoffman teachers bringing it to this country.
(28:16):
We'll put a link, by the way, to
some of what we talked about in the
show notes. So if you wanna check out
about BOW and Evolve
and what they're doing in the initial stages
here, bringing Kauffman to China.
It's such a great group of
10 of you. Different,
but also
(28:36):
deeply committed to the work.
Yeah. I think every one of us,
since we experience a process of self,
we experience a healing inside ourselves.
We are so committed to bring it to
China to serve
whoever really wants to change
to help their transformation happen. Well, thank you
(28:59):
for doing that. Thank you for
for spearheading
this journey, being the first of the Chinese
to come over, take it, and you're gonna
be the chief executive officer.
Yes. And Bo will be the chairman. Bo
will be the chair of the board. Yeah.
That's really exciting.
And thanks for hosting me here in China.
(29:19):
It is so hot.
It is so hot, but I've had some
amazing food.
Dinner two nights ago was chicken feet.
But I'm learning a lot my Chinese, practicing
some words.
Zhu is a genius in learning foreign kind
of language.
Language,
it's so there are words
(29:40):
that you say that we just do not
have in our language. So we have to
shape our mouths differently Yes. Than we ever
have before Yes. To create the word that
that you use. Yes. But, I mean, it's
amazing
that you're learning in English.
Yeah. We have to. Right?
Because now the Hoffman teacher in the whole
world speak Chinese, so we have to learn
(30:02):
English. And then translating it to Chinese? Yes.
We have a small team working on the
localization right now. The localization where you'll modify
and adjust
and bring some of it to make it
relevant
Yes. Exactly. To Chinese. Chinese culture. Yeah. Raul
Raul.
Thank you.
Thank you, Zhu. I feel so privileged.
(30:23):
It's been great to have this conversation with
you on the other side of the world.
It's great to have you here in China
to host you. I love it. Thanks, everybody.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
(30:43):
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and
president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Razzi Ingrassi,
Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute
Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In
themselves, in each other and in the world.
To find out more, please go to hoffmaninstitute.org.
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