October 9, 2025 • 44 mins
"If the age of AI is anything, it's the age of relationship." Nichol Bradford
Nichol Bradford shares her love's everyday radius with us - the arc of how the deep work she's done throughout her life now informs the impactful work she's doing in the world. At the forefront of human potential and AI, Nichol's work is accelerating human transformation through technology investments, research, and global thought leadership. In this conversation with Drew, she weaves together technology, AI, and the Hoffman Process.
Nichol has done a great deal of transformational work. The Hoffman Process was one of her chosen healing modalities. Nichol is passionate about her quest to advance human potential through ethical and empowering AI. In this conversation, she calls us forth to the inner work necessary so we can each be part of a movement to create technology that supports the thriving of humanity and the greater world.
"...where we're going is that work is going to be about human beings creating things together. That's what jobs will be. That's where we'll be. And in that place, like, you know, the way to be irreplaceable is it's really all about, are you adaptable? Can you adapt? Can you change? ... it has everything to do with who you are being and who you're being stands right on top of the types of things that Hoffman gets right at, as well as other deep work."
This aligns with the impetus behind Love's Everyday Radius. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to attend Hoffman have experienced profound personal change. That change now ripples out into the world through how we share our gifts with others. And it will ripple out in how we create the future together.
We hope you enjoy this inspiring conversation with Nichol and Drew.
More about Nichol Bradford:
Nichol Bradford stands at the forefront of human potential and AI, accelerating human transformation through technology investments, research, and global thought leadership.
Currently, Nichol serves as Executive-in-Residence for AI + HI at The Society for Human Resource Management, shaping global thinking on human-AI collaboration. She is also Co-Founder and Partner of Niremia Collective, an early-stage venture fund focused on human potential technologies, and she co-founded TransformativeTech.org, the largest global ecosystem of founders, investors, and innovators building tech for human flourishing.
Previously, as a senior interactive entertainment executive, Nichol held strategy, operations, marketing, and production roles at major brands including Epic Games, Activision-Blizzard, Vivendi Games, and Disney. She led operations for World of Warcraft China and Blizzard properties in China, played a key role on the Vivendi team responsible for the landmark $18B Activision-Blizzard merger deal, and helped produce record-breaking events in the metaverse at Epic Games.
Nichol has an MBA from The Wharton School, is on the Faculty at Singularity University, a Trustee at CIIS, and has been a Lecturer and Adjunct Professor at Stanford University.
Moving forward, Nichol is focused on advancing human potential through ethical and empowering AI -- catalyzing a global ecosystem of innovators to create technology for human thriving.
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As mentioned in this episode:
Human tech is the evolution of transformative tech:
Human + Tech Week - Where Human Potential and AI Innovation Converge.
• Human Tech Week 2026: April 27 - May 2, San Francisco
- How do we help humans heal, grow, and thrive? Six focus areas:
1. Vital - Preventive health and wellness, "because you can't separate the mind of the body."
2. Mesh - Mental, emotional, and social health.
3. Peak - Individual and organizational performance.
4. Sync - Collective intelligence, collaborative collaboration at scale, digital well-being, "How can we make sure that we can be well with all of these tools that we have?"
5. Soul - Purpose, meaning, and consciousness,
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
I think it makes a lot of sense
to talk about technology AI and Hoffman in
the same conversation
because it's a part of the same solution
set. What we have to do is to
understand how we can actually, like, change these
systems and bring these things together so that
we actually create the system that allows
humanity to shift in the way that we
(00:22):
need to to live with the tools that
we've built and also our curious natures.
Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and
this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute
and its stories and anecdotes
and people we interview
(00:43):
about their life post process and how it
lives in the world radiating love.
Everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast.
Nicole Bradford is with us. Thank you for
being with us, Nicole. I appreciate it. Oh,
(01:04):
it's my pleasure. I love the work that
Hoffman does. I love the impact that it
has on people.
I
have seen Hoffman
always
always
create
positive effects in people's lives, so I'm really
happy to be here. Wow. I hear the
always there. Thank you. Can you introduce yourself
(01:27):
a little bit? Let us know who you
are. Yes. My name is Nicole Bradford,
and
I
am completely focused on human potential.
And
my specific
approach to it, though, is
the question of how do we leverage technology
to support
human potential and to unlock human potential.
(01:50):
I think there's many applications,
but the way that I do that is
in three ways. One,
I am a cofounder
of
a early stage venture fund that invest in
what we call human tech,
and I'll explain in a moment what that
is. The second thing is I gather.
So I organize a conference called Human Tech
(02:10):
Week, which is an evolution of a conference
that used to be called transformative tech. And
it also is about human tech, which I'll
explain what it is. And then the third
thing I do
is I work with the
Society of Human Resource Management,
advising on and doing thought leadership around
human and AI enablement
(02:32):
at organizations.
And SHRM has 340,000
members who take care of 362,000,000
people globally every Monday. And so it is
also absolutely as these organizations are beginning to
use AI, it absolutely is a
environment
where
(02:52):
the question of how
we leverage AI or leverage technology to actually
unlock
true human potential,
you know, something that leaders are focused on
every single day. So that's the portfolio of
what I do. But for me, the thread
is really
humans fulfilling
their potential.
(03:13):
And the way that I think about it
in transformative tech when I started, it was
about,
you know, how do we help humans heal,
grow and thrive and how can technology support
that?
And so human tech is really the evolution
of transformative tech just to make it less
abstract for people.
Basically, there's six focus areas.
(03:34):
The first one's called vital. That's preventative health
and wellness
because you can't separate the mind and the
body.
Mesh, that's mental, emotional, and social health.
The next one is peak. That's individual and
organizational
performance.
After that is sync. That's collective intelligence,
collaborative,
(03:54):
collaboration at scale,
digital well-being. Like, how can we make sure
that we can be well with all of
these tools that we have?
And then soul, which is purpose, meaning, and
consciousness both from a science neuroscience
standpoint and from a spiritual standpoint.
Spiritual defined as a better relationship to self,
other, and the environment.
(04:15):
And the
last one is city, which is the built
environment,
both physically and metaphorically.
How can we leverage technology
in the spaces around us in order to
enable and empower
all of the areas that I described before?
We'll put those six categories along with other
things we talk about today
(04:37):
in the show notes. So if people wanna
follow-up and dig in a little bit, there'll
be a place to go deeper.
You know, it's interesting. You're talking about humans,
and yet it's through this thing that is
very unhuman, which is technology.
So how does that tension go between
working with humans on behalf of humans,
(05:00):
but with this
place in space that is very unhuman like?
Well, humans have always had tools,
and this is just our newest
tool.
There's this beautiful quote about
cities that, you know, we build our cities
and then our cities build us.
And so
there is an interplay between
(05:22):
the tools that we build and then how
those tools affect us.
Also, I'm interested in technology
for humans
because
my father was a plumber. We were middle
class, but just middle class.
You know? And I grew up in a
neighborhood where really no one looked like me.
(05:44):
I was always a child that really paid
attention to things for
a lot of reasons.
I was sort of, like, hyper aware.
Some might say hyper vigilant,
but really aware of what was going on
around me. And so, you know, I always
a long time ago thought about like,
why do people do the things that they
do and where are they really coming from?
And then I volunteered with my family very
(06:06):
early as a child.
And so I always had this sense of,
you know, we're connected to one another. Humans
should take care of one another. And, you
know, my family,
my aunts and, other people used to always
say like to whom much is given much
is expected. So if you have talents of
any kind,
there's a part of us that I really
believe and have the DNA to really, to
(06:28):
look to how we can leverage our gifts
to support not just ourselves, but other people.
So that was kind of like my core
function
or my core thinking.
But what I love about technology
is that it does make things accessible,
affordable, and available.
You know, the world has pockets of really
(06:48):
good things. And how do we make that
and take that really broad?
A story that many people are unaware of
is that when aluminum was first developed, and
I'm not saying an aluminum's, you know, the
most awesome thing ever, but when it was
first developed, the process was so difficult that
it was considered more valuable than gold because
we didn't really know how to do it.
(07:09):
But now people listening to this show have
wrapped a sandwich in it and thrown it
away later.
You know, it's sort of this point that
tools can make things available to all
people.
So my take on technology
is not that it's bad
necessarily.
It's that it's not good enough. And the
good enough comes from
(07:31):
how we design it, what are our goals,
our understandings
are,
the ethics that we put in it, and
what are our ambitions.
The ambition around Human Tech Week is
that it's the thesis
that humans should be at the center
of the tools that we build.
You know, human should be at the center
of AI and technology.
(07:53):
That one of the roles we should insist
that it has is that it's here to
help us heal, grow, and thrive, and that
there is value in gathering
founders,
investors,
scientists,
workplace innovators, and creatives to create the future
we actually really want. I think one of
the things that's happening,
(08:14):
and I think this speaks to the tension
that you've described, is that the inhumanity of
technology has everything to do with how we
design the technology and what our ambition is
for it. And so I think, especially with
AI and in AI conversations,
you hear so much ambition for
tools. There's very little ambition for humans.
(08:36):
Think about the headlines and the messages and
the things you hear people say.
And there's not this sort of like ambition
for humans, for our transformation, for our healing,
for our creation, for our imagination.
It's kind of an afterthought that they tack
on the end
after a bunch of other things with a
lot of buzzwords.
(08:57):
Part of what I hear is deep intentionality
to technology
that isn't inherently bad.
It's just not good. We need to make
it better. So
how do we take the
intentionality,
the goals, the focus
to be better
in technology
also to humans so that humans have that
(09:19):
same kind of
focus to improve,
to grow, to heal?
Yeah. Just to give another example to make
it less abstract, one of my obsessions is
microbiome.
I think that the next era of health
is going to be the biomes that we
have in our gut, on our skin, in
(09:40):
our mouths.
That is very nature.
A fun game. Anytime you're talking to someone
who's interested in
uploading themselves to a computer, you know, and
they're like, oh, we can do this.
Or if you're in a conversations where people
are like, well, why will people need people
if AI can tell you all the great
things about yourself and that kind of thing?
(10:02):
When I'm in that situation, I just say
one word. I go, okay.
Microbiome.
We don't even understand
how our gut biome affects our cognition. This
huge chunk of your serotonin is made in
your gut.
There's interactions.
We have trillions of creepy crawlies that are
all over us interacting with our bodies and
(10:23):
each other. It is very natural. It doesn't
get more natural than that. It doesn't get
more than that. It doesn't get more dirt
under their fingernails and that, and we don't
really understand it. And I think it's gonna
be the next era of medicine.
And so, you know, what technology
to give a technology example,
and it's still the very beginning.
A schizophrenic can be identified almost 100%
(10:44):
from their stool.
That's been around for a long time, and
now there's been some papers a few years
ago where depression can be identified
from stool.
That's because of the gut biome and what's
happening in your gut, that those fingerprints are
there.
On the flip side is that the ability
to sequence, the ability to, for us to
(11:04):
use our tools to begin to understand ourselves
better,
ultimately,
how extraordinary would it be if
some chunk
of
depression
you know, I am not anti
SSRI or anything like that. People who need
them really need them. But if some chunk,
some supportive holistic situation
(11:26):
includes being able to use the grocery store
or use a garden
to be able to support our mental health
and not anecdotally,
but scientifically,
I invested in a great company that does
this sort of thing that's looking into it.
And so I think that's a really great
example.
(11:46):
When people think of technology,
what they really mean is social media. Like,
that's really what they mean. And when they
think of AI, they really think of chat
g p t, and that's kind of it,
but there's much, much more.
And so the intersection, the layering of humans
and
AI and technology and this ambition that we're
used this technology
(12:06):
to support us mentally and emotionally,
that doesn't mean, you know, that we replace
therapists with AI therapists. It means that we
understand and develop really holistic solutions
about how it really can be designed. And
I'll just say one more thing before I
stop. It's like you push a button and
it's just like, I have so many thoughts,
but I think that in mental health, there
(12:27):
is a role
for
a
companion
that you can speak to
outside of speaking to your therapist.
You know, your therapist is not available or
your psychiatrist or therapist, they're not available at
3AM.
You know, because they need to have a
life. Right? Like, they need to have a
life, and we don't have enough of these
(12:47):
people anyway. They're precious,
and they're not available at 3AM. And so
does that mean someone should
suffer all night long and not be able
to talk to anyone at 3AM?
No. They they should have something. We should
have something. So what are the parameters? So
design would be being able to understand how
we should use these things. So you have
(13:08):
a tool, you know, you have a therapist
and you have a cadence with that therapist.
You have a tool that allows that therapist
to get a bigger picture of who you
are
to support what they're doing. And then at
3AM, you have support. So that's what I
mean by it's it's not that it's bad.
It's that it's not good enough. And we
have to look at it holistically
(13:29):
and design things that support us. That's how
I see things.
I love it. So how is that going?
How is it to
I mean, it feels like we're at the
forefront not just of AI technology and development
and
the better usage
of it, but also understanding the body and
(13:52):
the psychology and the human biome. And
there's so much that we're learning both in
these parallel tracks
towards
wellness, if you will.
Yeah. I think, I heard a term the
other day that I quite love. It's called
a snow leopard.
And what a snow leopard is is
something that has been there all the time,
(14:14):
and then suddenly you see it.
A snow leopard is like it's there, but
then you really see it when things sort
of align. And so
a possible snow leopard is
if we actually get it right
with some of these tools, then we have
the ability to have a mass
healing
(14:34):
for
mental and emotional health,
just like the level of personalization
and all of the things that are possible.
Like, we're right on the cusp,
being able
to really help humans heal, grow, and thrive.
But we have major issues that we have
to solve today.
And so I'm not saying those issues don't
exist. I don't like utopia or dystopia.
(14:57):
I don't feel like I'm in either camp.
I'm a middle class kid child to a
plumber. I'm a planner.
You know what I mean? So it's like,
I think we have to
acknowledge the issues and then we have to
build plan and we have to design, we
have to actually get our hands dirty and
do it. And if all we do is
talk about what's gonna go wrong, then we
(15:19):
won't take the action
to build the things that give us the
upside.
And if all we do is talk about
how amazing it is, then we don't look
closely at things. You know, a good example
would be what's called neuro atrophy.
The study that people were talking about with
that is in Patty Maze's lab at MIT.
(15:39):
They did a thing where they were looking
at people
while they were basically interacting with CHAT GPT.
They were looking at brain activity.
One group was using it in a certain
way. They basically didn't really show that much
brain activity. They couldn't remember
anything that they
did. Like, the next day was like, what
did you write?
And they couldn't remember it. They didn't have
(16:01):
any authorship or ownership over it. There's lots
of downside. We have to learn ways of
using it. Meanwhile,
Khan Academy, Kamigo,
the bot does not give the child the
answer when it's in sort of like an
educational standpoint.
It's a Socratic method. It's a questioning method.
The child sort of goes through it. They
are showing
(16:22):
incredible success
in learning, but that's because since they were
approaching it from that standpoint,
they built it in a way for those
outcomes. So we just have to understand what's
wrong, what the challenges are, and then we
need
to design holistic solutions
that are include tech, non tech, etcetera,
(16:42):
that allow us to
support humans
in the ways that we really need in
ways that could fundamentally
improve
people's ability and capacity
to live in this world.
You know, part of what I hear, Nicole,
is acknowledging the power of technology,
but also saying we need to meet that
power
(17:03):
with a focus and intentionality
that harnesses it for good
and not to sit around and fear it
or the opposite, which is
laud its incredible
skills and
value
without
channeling some of that and being aware of
the harm it can do. Yeah. If the
(17:25):
people listening to this podcast,
if you have a question
and you're not building a solution
and you're worried about bad actors, but you
aren't acting,
then the bad actors are going to do
whatever they're going to do, and there will
be no alternative.
So it's like if we want it, we
have to build it. The way that I
gather, the way that I, you know, move
(17:45):
through the world is really all about
if we want things, we have to create
them.
So I'm thinking about you in your process
at Hoffman
and wondering,
is this
like activating all kinds of ideas about how
technology
can help? Were you also having a parallel
experience about how
not just your personal work that you're doing
(18:06):
at Hoffman, but ways in which you can
apply some of this stuff out in the
world?
The beauty of the Hoffman
process is that, you know, I put my
phone in the bag
and left it.
The Hoffman process
is
extraordinary,
so I wasn't out of the process. In
fact,
what I do, you know, I give people
(18:27):
advice.
I recommend the Hoffman process at least three
times a month,
and I feel passionately and strongly about it.
I can think of at least
16 people
since I did the process
that I have
been like,
let me tell you about this thing.
(18:47):
You know, like I hear what's going on
in your life over and over and over
again.
Let me tell you about this thing
that many people find quite helpful.
The next thing I say is I talk
about how, what I love about Hoffman
is one, it's not an experiment. It is
not the Hoffman experiment.
Hoffman has been at it for over fifty
(19:08):
years. I I think over a 100,000 people
have gone through it at this point.
You know exactly what you're doing
in sort of taking people through that process.
And then I've had some people say, well,
my particular thing that I need the process
for
is such a unique and horrible thing. And
I'm like, trust me, it's not.
(19:30):
Like it is to you, but they've seen
absolutely
everything. And the way that the facilitators
adapt
the process for the person who's in it
within that container,
that's tried true and tested.
It's just good. The other thing is that
I have I have total faith when I
recommend people to go to Hoffman.
(19:51):
I know that the way that they are
cared for, I know it's safe.
Everybody gets the level of,
change that they're, I think, consciously and unconsciously
ready for.
You know, now that I've been in deep
work communities for a long time, I have
a lot of trust in people's
internal
system
(20:11):
breaking
at the level that they're able to go
to for things like this. So I have
total faith and trust in
Hoffman. I think there's some other healing modalities
that, you know, I don't necessarily
know. People ask me about, you know, this
tool or that medicine or that teacher or
whatever. And it's like, sometimes you don't know,
(20:31):
but I have absolute faith in Hoffman.
I know it works. I've seen it work.
I've seen it work in people's lives. There
was one person that I had known socially,
and I didn't know that they had gone
to Hoffman, but they were so different
from the person that they were that I'd
maybe seen four or five months before
(20:52):
that I actually thought this person was high
because they were so relaxed.
I was like I was in my mind,
I was like, is he high?
You know? But it was like, no. No.
He was just like he was just free.
And, so I love Hoffman. And then the
last thing I'll say, which sort of ties
up the question, is that
when I find out that people are going
(21:13):
to Hoffman,
I give them one piece of advice.
One, trust the process, and two, be like
Daniel.
Daniel wrestled with the angel until the angel
gave him his blessing. And, oh, I'm getting
a little emotional.
Be like Daniel. Give it your all. Just
give it your all. If you have a
(21:34):
critical mind,
take it and put it to the side
for that week and go all in because
whatever point of view you're bringing,
you can pick that up at the end
of the week. That's been with you forever.
You can pick it back up, but just
go all in, leave nothing on the table.
Be like Daniel,
get your blessing. You're spending a lot of
(21:57):
time. It's a big time commitment.
It isn't inexpensive and Hoffman is wonderful and
gives lots of scholarships, but it is not
inexpensive in terms of time or money. So
go there, trust the process,
leave everything on the table, be like Daniel,
and do not leave without your blessing.
And then at the end, if you wanna
pick something up again, you can, but your
(22:19):
perspective will probably be different.
Beautiful. Beautiful, Nicole. Yeah. I love Hoffman. That's
why when you said, can we interview? I
was like, absolutely.
Now what is it about the emotion that
emerged?
It must have touched something inside you.
What was moved in that moment earlier?
(22:39):
Well, I mean, part of it is Hoffman
had a huge effect on me. I remember
my before and after.
How did you know? What were the indicators
of that that you said to yourself, wow,
I I am different?
I think that's a really good point is
that the way that we know that we've
changed is when we're in the same situation,
we make a different choice.
(23:01):
That's when you know that you've changed. And
so
I had those experiences
where I just was a different person in
the same situation.
Once you're a different person, the same situation,
once or twice, you don't end up in
the same situation.
Then the other thing is that
(23:21):
I love
humans.
I love
humans. I love
our creativity and our curiosity, and I love
hope and faith. And when
someone gets their freedom,
it
moves me, you know, and I'm also really
inspired by
(23:41):
what they might do with that freedom.
It's also like how it also ties back
to
AI and technology is that one of the
things these tools are doing,
AI is going to make competence
a commodity.
Because when these things can do the spreadsheets
or count the inventory,
(24:03):
etcetera,
Like, you could take a photograph, like, I
just something crazy. Like, I'm going to
an international
meeting of
telecom regulators to speak on digital well-being and
AI and the visa.
I have to list all my travels for
the last five years for this visa. I
feel like it's a pain. You know, I'm
like, I don't remember. Last year, I took
(24:24):
55 flight because I am talking to people
about what we are discussing. And so I
basically just took photos of every page of
my passport
and then loaded it up, and it gave
me my entry exit, and it took moments.
That's something that would have taken a really
long time. And so as that competency line
goes up, there's probably someone you know
(24:47):
who you tolerate
because they're really good at doing something you
don't wanna do or you don't know how
to do. And that's gonna go away
because the competency
floor of being competent,
that's not gonna be enough.
And so as this floor rises,
you know, really where we're going is that
(25:07):
work is going to be about
human beings creating things together.
That's what jobs will be. That's what work
will be.
And in that place, like, you know, the
way to be
irreplaceable is it's really all about,
are you adaptable?
Can you adapt?
Can you change? Are you a person who
(25:28):
can lead change, inspire change during this
incredibly
difficult time that we're
going through? And so they're they're really human
attributes and elements,
and it has everything to do with
who you're being
and who you're being stands right on top
of the types of things that Hoffman gets
(25:49):
right at as well as other deep work.
The person at work who takes everyone's credit,
I believe if you follow them home and
into their past, you'll likely find a family
where
only accomplishment secured love
in this world that's coming
where the key to value will be creating
(26:10):
things with other humans and unlocking the potential
of other humans and being the kind of
person
that can inspire and create change and lead
from whatever place you have on any team.
The level of freedom you have internally,
I think will have a big impact on
people's ability to do that. So I think
this work
is going to become ever more important.
(26:33):
Yeah. So I'm just passionate about it. You're
saying something really interesting, and that is that
we could focus on
developing the technology itself.
We could focus on
being happy or being content.
But you're saying that
what the world needs and what technology
will
(26:53):
specialize
in what the world needs is adaptability,
teamwork,
and that those things will
elevate those who can
show up
in the ability to pivot, the ability to
be resilient,
and that Hoffman is part of the foundation
that creates that. Yeah. I which we get
(27:14):
just a little bit in that we're going
to have to become deeper,
freer, better humans.
And by better, I mean, I'm not using
it judgmentally
or in sort of continuous self improvement, which
I think is also a cul de sac.
But I just mean it's like getting to
that deep human place
where we are in good relationship with ourselves,
(27:37):
like real, true, deep, good relationship with ourselves,
which includes
everything from being able to set a boundary.
That is deep, beautiful relationship with self.
Are we capable of being in good deep
relationship with others?
That's conflict resolution.
And are we able to be in good
and deep relationship
with our environment, which is also like our
(27:59):
machines?
How do we think about these things? How
do we build them? How do we design
them? The age of AI is anything. It's
the age of relationship,
which is a little bit counterintuitive
because of this importance
of having these very human skills.
All of humanity's knowledge is on the internet.
So owning facts that used to give people
(28:20):
an edge. There's no edge in owning a
fact.
The evolution of this
is that there are a set of things
that there's sort of like no edge in
doing it. Having information
doesn't make you special. Yeah. Being able
to go through a passport and pull out
things does not make you special either.
What makes you special is what really makes
(28:42):
you special, which is, like, who are you,
and are you in deep relationship
with yourself?
Can you be in deep relations with others?
And do you know how to use the
tools in a way that is beneficial
to you?
Nicole, you spoke earlier about the cul de
sac of continuous self improvement.
And I've just noticed a trend recently where
(29:04):
it's been around, but it just seems like
it's coming more and more, and that is
the people who come to Hoffman to optimize.
They're in the podcast, and they're in the
optimization
world, and Hoffman is just a step in
that.
And so can you just share
and distinguish between this deep relationship with yourself
(29:25):
that you referenced as so important
and the difference between that
and this optimization
that
is a cul de sac. It's not the
same thing. Can you talk about that a
little bit? Why are they not the same
thing? Well, just to prepare you on the
other side, I'm gonna ask you, how does
Hoffman deal with that? Because it used to
(29:46):
be a well kept secret
with Hoffman making that decision
to not do the equivalent of multilevel marketing.
That ethos of Hoffman
made it so, like, you weren't out there
before.
And I was actually really glad when you
started to because I'm African American and people
in different communities are hearing about it now.
(30:07):
So I think that's wonderful, but it's like
the way that you do it is so
elegant. I have a lot of respect for
Hoffman.
The tagline is like when you're ready for
change
and people will hear about it because they're
ready for improvement.
The eggs that you're getting are different
than the eggs that you got before when,
like, you know, people found you when they
were truly desperate.
(30:28):
I mean, I would say that the difference
is that and just to give some context
is that I love deep work. Part of
it is that I'm an explorer. So, you
know, initially I did deep work for some
very specific issues and some very specific things
that I wanted to
experience differently in the world. I'm always curious.
And so I became really curious about understanding
(30:50):
myself more. It started out like I was
talking to someone about meditation.
I said, it's meditation started out as medication
to like manage my stress and then ended
up being the way that I understood the
pure nature of reality.
Now meditation is like holding space and time.
(31:11):
But in the beginning, it was medication and
now it's
folding space time. When I started doing deep
work, I wanted to have a better relationship
with myself, with others.
I did a big chunk for about ten
years.
Also, the other thing that I'll bring to
it before I answer that question
is as I've seen the optimizers in many
different categories,
(31:31):
and certainly I've had that element, and I
know lots of people who are.
I think there's, like, three styles.
I call it the growth pyramid. On one
side, there's
capacity builders.
Meditation is a ongoing capacity builder.
Emotional release work is a capacity builder.
And then there's pattern breakers,
therapy, and things like that. Like, there's things
(31:53):
that really break patterns, and then there's paradigm
shifters. And so paradigm shifters are things like,
you know, when people do psychedelic assisted therapy
or other things like that, it's like a
fence with a trampoline next to it. And
so you jump on the trampoline and you
get to see above the fence, but those
aren't maintainable.
A meditation retreat is a paradigm shifter on
(32:14):
par with psychedelics.
By day four of a silent retreat, it
is a psychedelic experience
for many people. I think that's why they
make them silent because it's like, if you
knew how many people were tripping out by
day four of just air, you know, you
might run from the space.
I've done a lot of work with Art
of Accomplishment. I love Joe Hudson and and
that whole community. And then also,
(32:36):
I took the coaching training for,
a conscious leadership group
and, CLG and Diana Chapman. I love
Diana and Jim. Love, love, love, love, love.
I've done a ton of meditation.
I spent thirty three days in the jungles
of Myanmar with the Mahasi Sayadaw.
I sat with Dan Brown before he passed.
(32:57):
For those who are listening, he was one
of the greatest Western teachers
of Tibetan Bonn.
So as we are on this journey, like,
I think when someone shows up at Hoffman,
there might be an optimizer
showing up at Hoffman.
There's a soul and intuition in that, and
it's just I'm about to get emotional because
it's like you just like, seeing people do
(33:18):
deep work is so beautiful, and it's basically
it's just like,
you know, it's a racket.
And it's just it's like we're just trying
to be safe.
You know? We're just trying
to feel safe and be loved. And so
that optimization
is a racket.
And so, like, when I see it happening,
(33:39):
I actually just feel
love and compassion
and the people, they just work it. You
know, I think for me, one of the
things that really changed for me too is
that it was actually through meditation
that I fell into
a deep,
extraordinary
love of myself.
I just,
(34:00):
I love myself
so much.
And I remember, you know, when I was
a younger woman, I remember mentors
telling me, oh, you just have to love
yourself. And I remember thinking,
like, what? Like, how do you do that?
Like, what? Tell me. Just tell me how.
Tell me how.
I think that the optimization, it eventually works
(34:21):
itself out of the system. And it's just
one of those things. It's like, oh, that's
what they're doing right now.
Eventually, we get to a point that those
coping mechanisms because that optimization,
it is a belief that if I can
optimize myself, then I will be safe.
It's just a coping mechanism,
and it worked
when they
first picked it up. All of our coping
(34:43):
mechanisms,
we have them for a reason.
They worked
until they didn't.
And so I think if they keep doing
the deep work, eventually, the racket breaks.
That's what I think about it. It relates
so much to,
kin to what we do at the process
in terms of understanding that
patterns are coping mechanisms,
(35:04):
and they work until they don't. They have
a shelf life. They have an expiration date.
And
we all have patterns,
but we are not our patterns.
And so if we can continue to peel
away
those layers,
then you work with the shame
that drives that. So
to answer your question earlier that you said
(35:25):
we would get to, which is what is
Hoffman doing with those optimizers,
we're trying to help them understand the shame
that can drive so much of the optimization
behavior.
If they can keep going underneath
the shame,
to really understand shame is to know that
underneath it, on the other side of it,
is your essence,
(35:46):
that deep soulful place that we all want
to get to. When you say, I mean,
I love myself. I love myself. That's
that's our spiritual self,
unconditionally
self loving, such a beautiful place to be.
Yeah. And I think Hoffman, it does
such a great job.
There's a moment where you see yourself doing
(36:08):
the thing that you do,
and instead of cringing,
you're like, oh, look at me. I'm doing
it again. You know? I'm doing the thing.
There's a point where you get to the
love of it.
The riddle that is embedded in all of
this is that in order to truly change,
we have to love that thing that we
(36:29):
do unconditionally.
But if you love it unconditionally to change
it,
you're not loving it. So it keeps dragging
around and you have to optimize around it.
You have to rule base your psychology to
make that thing not happen.
When you get to the point
where whatever that thing is, you
actually can love it as it is, love
(36:49):
yourself as you are with that thing,
then it's like they just sort of melt
away. It's a puzzle of the ages. And
it's one of those things that's like before
you have the experience, you're like, but tell
me how.
And then on the other side of it,
you're like, oh, yeah.
It's the journey.
It's the journey to freedom.
So good, Nicole. So good. I see why
you're in this work helping
(37:10):
bring everything you're sharing about humans,
which is such a deep,
nuanced understanding and that relationship
to change.
Humans
change
technology.
Wow. What a great one, two, three,
out of the
park combination. Thank you for your work.
(37:32):
I
believe
that these next ten years really matter.
I will say for the deep meditators
out there,
one of the places where I'm at right
now is that a little while ago, probably
it was a couple of years ago, I
was in a meditation experience and
I was so deep.
I was so deep in the fabric. I
(37:54):
was in the understory,
deep down there. You know? No place, no
time, timeless,
that place that is empty and full simultaneously,
that there's absolutely nothing.
I had the experience
of becoming
aware of the observer.
I witnessed the witness, and I observed the
observer.
It wasn't that the observer finally saw me.
(38:16):
It was that I finally was aware
of the observer and the witness that is
there. And then the next sense I had
was it was like an image
of a drop of water, and it was
close-up. My perspective was right at the water
drop.
And, with that, I had the understanding that
we've always been together. We all have always
(38:38):
been together, all of us, all of us.
We're all together
all the time. On this level,
I feel that this particular puzzle that we
have around how do we live with technology
and how does humanity evolve
and who are we going to be
over this next chapter? Do we solve the
puzzle
(38:58):
of how we show up with each other
in this particular
version?
And I think we have about ten years
to know if this is going to be
more like Hunger Games or Star Trek.
This is really the moment. This is the
moment. I'm in my fifties,
and I did a great deal of work.
I have a lot of capabilities and capacities.
(39:20):
There is nothing that anyone could do to
have me go back to my twenties now,
you know, and be 20 years old right
now. And it's really because this is the
time for all of us. I imagine many
people who are listening
to be an adult,
to be
aware,
awake,
talented,
capable
(39:41):
at this moment.
Oh, I'm getting chills. Like, this is the
moment. This is the moment for us to
bring
our freedom
to the problems,
the intractable
problems.
For anyone who's listening, I did air quotes,
like the intractable
problems that have been facing us
as a species. And so
it is the most exciting time to put
(40:02):
you alive. It's the most amazing time to
be be alive, and it is the time
where
bringing a healed internal
state to
these challenges
is important. So for people who have kids
and look at the news and you have
the question,
what's gonna happen to college students, what's gonna
happen to children, then it's really like, if
(40:24):
you have any unfinished business
internally,
get that done, get that done because now
is the time we're shaping it.
The things that
Hoffman helps people get out of the way
in how they deal with themselves and deal
with other people,
how they relate to themselves and relate to
other people. These are the leadership skills.
(40:45):
These are the present skills
that allow us to adapt in the moment.
When people are running scripts, they get very
rigid.
You can't have a new piece of information
come in and respond to it in an
elegant way
if you're running scripts.
And so these childhood scripts
gotta do the work to get rid of
(41:05):
the scripts, to not be ruled by the
scripts. If you want to lean towards the
side
of
humans,
our species,
evolving to the place that we can solve
these problems, some of which are existential.
Nicole,
so
good. I can feel the passion and the
importance
(41:26):
of what this means for you and what
it means for us as humans and then
the collective us as a society.
Thank you for this conversation. What's it like
to
talk about
Hoffman
and the work you do and who you
are? How do you feel as we wrap
up here? I feel great.
I love the puzzle,
(41:47):
and I love how I show up to
the puzzle
in that I'm actually unattached to the outcome.
Also, because I know that we've always been
together,
sun up to sun down,
every moment, every day.
I am working on the problem
of how we
help
people heal, grow, and thrive
at scale. And scale's become a dirty word
(42:08):
because of how it's affiliated
with social media,
but it really just means for everyone
and what might be possible. And so the
way my brain works and my superpower
has a lot to do with
seeing things that look unrelated and pulling them
together.
I think it makes a lot of sense
to talk about
technology AI and Hoffman in the same conversation,
(42:32):
because it's a part of the same solution
set. What we have to do is to
understand how we can actually, like, change these
systems
and bring these things together
so that we actually create the system that
allows
humanity to shift in the way that we
need to to live with the tools that
we've built
and also our curious natures.
(42:53):
Well, thanks for your curious nature
today, Nicole, and
people can check out your website, nicolebradford.com.
And,
look at the show notes because we'll have
lots of links to all the good stuff
you talked about.
Human tech week is going to be April
27 through May 2, and it's going to
(43:13):
be all about this technology and all across
San Francisco.
Awesome.
Nicole, thanks for your time. Really, really appreciate
you and this conversation.
Likewise.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
(43:34):
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and
president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Razzi Grassi,
Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute
Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In
themselves, in each other, and in the world.
To find out more, please go to hompaninstitute.org.
I think it makes a lot of sense
to talk about technology AI and Hoffman in
the same conversation
because it's a part of the same solution
set. What we have to do is to
understand how we can actually, like, change these
systems and bring these things together so that
we actually create the system that allows
humanity to shift in the way that we
(00:22):
need to to live with the tools that
we've built and also our curious natures.
Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and
this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute
and its stories and anecdotes
and people we interview
(00:43):
about their life post process and how it
lives in the world radiating love.
Everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast.
Nicole Bradford is with us. Thank you for
being with us, Nicole. I appreciate it. Oh,
(01:04):
it's my pleasure. I love the work that
Hoffman does. I love the impact that it
has on people.
I
have seen Hoffman
always
always
create
positive effects in people's lives, so I'm really
happy to be here. Wow. I hear the
always there. Thank you. Can you introduce yourself
(01:27):
a little bit? Let us know who you
are. Yes. My name is Nicole Bradford,
and
I
am completely focused on human potential.
And
my specific
approach to it, though, is
the question of how do we leverage technology
to support
human potential and to unlock human potential.
(01:50):
I think there's many applications,
but the way that I do that is
in three ways. One,
I am a cofounder
of
a early stage venture fund that invest in
what we call human tech,
and I'll explain in a moment what that
is. The second thing is I gather.
So I organize a conference called Human Tech
(02:10):
Week, which is an evolution of a conference
that used to be called transformative tech. And
it also is about human tech, which I'll
explain what it is. And then the third
thing I do
is I work with the
Society of Human Resource Management,
advising on and doing thought leadership around
human and AI enablement
(02:32):
at organizations.
And SHRM has 340,000
members who take care of 362,000,000
people globally every Monday. And so it is
also absolutely as these organizations are beginning to
use AI, it absolutely is a
environment
where
(02:52):
the question of how
we leverage AI or leverage technology to actually
unlock
true human potential,
you know, something that leaders are focused on
every single day. So that's the portfolio of
what I do. But for me, the thread
is really
humans fulfilling
their potential.
(03:13):
And the way that I think about it
in transformative tech when I started, it was
about,
you know, how do we help humans heal,
grow and thrive and how can technology support
that?
And so human tech is really the evolution
of transformative tech just to make it less
abstract for people.
Basically, there's six focus areas.
(03:34):
The first one's called vital. That's preventative health
and wellness
because you can't separate the mind and the
body.
Mesh, that's mental, emotional, and social health.
The next one is peak. That's individual and
organizational
performance.
After that is sync. That's collective intelligence,
collaborative,
(03:54):
collaboration at scale,
digital well-being. Like, how can we make sure
that we can be well with all of
these tools that we have?
And then soul, which is purpose, meaning, and
consciousness both from a science neuroscience
standpoint and from a spiritual standpoint.
Spiritual defined as a better relationship to self,
other, and the environment.
(04:15):
And the
last one is city, which is the built
environment,
both physically and metaphorically.
How can we leverage technology
in the spaces around us in order to
enable and empower
all of the areas that I described before?
We'll put those six categories along with other
things we talk about today
(04:37):
in the show notes. So if people wanna
follow-up and dig in a little bit, there'll
be a place to go deeper.
You know, it's interesting. You're talking about humans,
and yet it's through this thing that is
very unhuman, which is technology.
So how does that tension go between
working with humans on behalf of humans,
(05:00):
but with this
place in space that is very unhuman like?
Well, humans have always had tools,
and this is just our newest
tool.
There's this beautiful quote about
cities that, you know, we build our cities
and then our cities build us.
And so
there is an interplay between
(05:22):
the tools that we build and then how
those tools affect us.
Also, I'm interested in technology
for humans
because
my father was a plumber. We were middle
class, but just middle class.
You know? And I grew up in a
neighborhood where really no one looked like me.
(05:44):
I was always a child that really paid
attention to things for
a lot of reasons.
I was sort of, like, hyper aware.
Some might say hyper vigilant,
but really aware of what was going on
around me. And so, you know, I always
a long time ago thought about like,
why do people do the things that they
do and where are they really coming from?
And then I volunteered with my family very
(06:06):
early as a child.
And so I always had this sense of,
you know, we're connected to one another. Humans
should take care of one another. And, you
know, my family,
my aunts and, other people used to always
say like to whom much is given much
is expected. So if you have talents of
any kind,
there's a part of us that I really
believe and have the DNA to really, to
(06:28):
look to how we can leverage our gifts
to support not just ourselves, but other people.
So that was kind of like my core
function
or my core thinking.
But what I love about technology
is that it does make things accessible,
affordable, and available.
You know, the world has pockets of really
(06:48):
good things. And how do we make that
and take that really broad?
A story that many people are unaware of
is that when aluminum was first developed, and
I'm not saying an aluminum's, you know, the
most awesome thing ever, but when it was
first developed, the process was so difficult that
it was considered more valuable than gold because
we didn't really know how to do it.
(07:09):
But now people listening to this show have
wrapped a sandwich in it and thrown it
away later.
You know, it's sort of this point that
tools can make things available to all
people.
So my take on technology
is not that it's bad
necessarily.
It's that it's not good enough. And the
good enough comes from
(07:31):
how we design it, what are our goals,
our understandings
are,
the ethics that we put in it, and
what are our ambitions.
The ambition around Human Tech Week is
that it's the thesis
that humans should be at the center
of the tools that we build.
You know, human should be at the center
of AI and technology.
(07:53):
That one of the roles we should insist
that it has is that it's here to
help us heal, grow, and thrive, and that
there is value in gathering
founders,
investors,
scientists,
workplace innovators, and creatives to create the future
we actually really want. I think one of
the things that's happening,
(08:14):
and I think this speaks to the tension
that you've described, is that the inhumanity of
technology has everything to do with how we
design the technology and what our ambition is
for it. And so I think, especially with
AI and in AI conversations,
you hear so much ambition for
tools. There's very little ambition for humans.
(08:36):
Think about the headlines and the messages and
the things you hear people say.
And there's not this sort of like ambition
for humans, for our transformation, for our healing,
for our creation, for our imagination.
It's kind of an afterthought that they tack
on the end
after a bunch of other things with a
lot of buzzwords.
(08:57):
Part of what I hear is deep intentionality
to technology
that isn't inherently bad.
It's just not good. We need to make
it better. So
how do we take the
intentionality,
the goals, the focus
to be better
in technology
also to humans so that humans have that
(09:19):
same kind of
focus to improve,
to grow, to heal?
Yeah. Just to give another example to make
it less abstract, one of my obsessions is
microbiome.
I think that the next era of health
is going to be the biomes that we
have in our gut, on our skin, in
(09:40):
our mouths.
That is very nature.
A fun game. Anytime you're talking to someone
who's interested in
uploading themselves to a computer, you know, and
they're like, oh, we can do this.
Or if you're in a conversations where people
are like, well, why will people need people
if AI can tell you all the great
things about yourself and that kind of thing?
(10:02):
When I'm in that situation, I just say
one word. I go, okay.
Microbiome.
We don't even understand
how our gut biome affects our cognition. This
huge chunk of your serotonin is made in
your gut.
There's interactions.
We have trillions of creepy crawlies that are
all over us interacting with our bodies and
(10:23):
each other. It is very natural. It doesn't
get more natural than that. It doesn't get
more than that. It doesn't get more dirt
under their fingernails and that, and we don't
really understand it. And I think it's gonna
be the next era of medicine.
And so, you know, what technology
to give a technology example,
and it's still the very beginning.
A schizophrenic can be identified almost 100%
(10:44):
from their stool.
That's been around for a long time, and
now there's been some papers a few years
ago where depression can be identified
from stool.
That's because of the gut biome and what's
happening in your gut, that those fingerprints are
there.
On the flip side is that the ability
to sequence, the ability to, for us to
(11:04):
use our tools to begin to understand ourselves
better,
ultimately,
how extraordinary would it be if
some chunk
of
depression
you know, I am not anti
SSRI or anything like that. People who need
them really need them. But if some chunk,
some supportive holistic situation
(11:26):
includes being able to use the grocery store
or use a garden
to be able to support our mental health
and not anecdotally,
but scientifically,
I invested in a great company that does
this sort of thing that's looking into it.
And so I think that's a really great
example.
(11:46):
When people think of technology,
what they really mean is social media. Like,
that's really what they mean. And when they
think of AI, they really think of chat
g p t, and that's kind of it,
but there's much, much more.
And so the intersection, the layering of humans
and
AI and technology and this ambition that we're
used this technology
(12:06):
to support us mentally and emotionally,
that doesn't mean, you know, that we replace
therapists with AI therapists. It means that we
understand and develop really holistic solutions
about how it really can be designed. And
I'll just say one more thing before I
stop. It's like you push a button and
it's just like, I have so many thoughts,
but I think that in mental health, there
(12:27):
is a role
for
a
companion
that you can speak to
outside of speaking to your therapist.
You know, your therapist is not available or
your psychiatrist or therapist, they're not available at
3AM.
You know, because they need to have a
life. Right? Like, they need to have a
life, and we don't have enough of these
(12:47):
people anyway. They're precious,
and they're not available at 3AM. And so
does that mean someone should
suffer all night long and not be able
to talk to anyone at 3AM?
No. They they should have something. We should
have something. So what are the parameters? So
design would be being able to understand how
we should use these things. So you have
(13:08):
a tool, you know, you have a therapist
and you have a cadence with that therapist.
You have a tool that allows that therapist
to get a bigger picture of who you
are
to support what they're doing. And then at
3AM, you have support. So that's what I
mean by it's it's not that it's bad.
It's that it's not good enough. And we
have to look at it holistically
(13:29):
and design things that support us. That's how
I see things.
I love it. So how is that going?
How is it to
I mean, it feels like we're at the
forefront not just of AI technology and development
and
the better usage
of it, but also understanding the body and
(13:52):
the psychology and the human biome. And
there's so much that we're learning both in
these parallel tracks
towards
wellness, if you will.
Yeah. I think, I heard a term the
other day that I quite love. It's called
a snow leopard.
And what a snow leopard is is
something that has been there all the time,
(14:14):
and then suddenly you see it.
A snow leopard is like it's there, but
then you really see it when things sort
of align. And so
a possible snow leopard is
if we actually get it right
with some of these tools, then we have
the ability to have a mass
healing
(14:34):
for
mental and emotional health,
just like the level of personalization
and all of the things that are possible.
Like, we're right on the cusp,
being able
to really help humans heal, grow, and thrive.
But we have major issues that we have
to solve today.
And so I'm not saying those issues don't
exist. I don't like utopia or dystopia.
(14:57):
I don't feel like I'm in either camp.
I'm a middle class kid child to a
plumber. I'm a planner.
You know what I mean? So it's like,
I think we have to
acknowledge the issues and then we have to
build plan and we have to design, we
have to actually get our hands dirty and
do it. And if all we do is
talk about what's gonna go wrong, then we
(15:19):
won't take the action
to build the things that give us the
upside.
And if all we do is talk about
how amazing it is, then we don't look
closely at things. You know, a good example
would be what's called neuro atrophy.
The study that people were talking about with
that is in Patty Maze's lab at MIT.
(15:39):
They did a thing where they were looking
at people
while they were basically interacting with CHAT GPT.
They were looking at brain activity.
One group was using it in a certain
way. They basically didn't really show that much
brain activity. They couldn't remember
anything that they
did. Like, the next day was like, what
did you write?
And they couldn't remember it. They didn't have
(16:01):
any authorship or ownership over it. There's lots
of downside. We have to learn ways of
using it. Meanwhile,
Khan Academy, Kamigo,
the bot does not give the child the
answer when it's in sort of like an
educational standpoint.
It's a Socratic method. It's a questioning method.
The child sort of goes through it. They
are showing
(16:22):
incredible success
in learning, but that's because since they were
approaching it from that standpoint,
they built it in a way for those
outcomes. So we just have to understand what's
wrong, what the challenges are, and then we
need
to design holistic solutions
that are include tech, non tech, etcetera,
(16:42):
that allow us to
support humans
in the ways that we really need in
ways that could fundamentally
improve
people's ability and capacity
to live in this world.
You know, part of what I hear, Nicole,
is acknowledging the power of technology,
but also saying we need to meet that
power
(17:03):
with a focus and intentionality
that harnesses it for good
and not to sit around and fear it
or the opposite, which is
laud its incredible
skills and
value
without
channeling some of that and being aware of
the harm it can do. Yeah. If the
(17:25):
people listening to this podcast,
if you have a question
and you're not building a solution
and you're worried about bad actors, but you
aren't acting,
then the bad actors are going to do
whatever they're going to do, and there will
be no alternative.
So it's like if we want it, we
have to build it. The way that I
gather, the way that I, you know, move
(17:45):
through the world is really all about
if we want things, we have to create
them.
So I'm thinking about you in your process
at Hoffman
and wondering,
is this
like activating all kinds of ideas about how
technology
can help? Were you also having a parallel
experience about how
not just your personal work that you're doing
(18:06):
at Hoffman, but ways in which you can
apply some of this stuff out in the
world?
The beauty of the Hoffman
process is that, you know, I put my
phone in the bag
and left it.
The Hoffman process
is
extraordinary,
so I wasn't out of the process. In
fact,
what I do, you know, I give people
(18:27):
advice.
I recommend the Hoffman process at least three
times a month,
and I feel passionately and strongly about it.
I can think of at least
16 people
since I did the process
that I have
been like,
let me tell you about this thing.
(18:47):
You know, like I hear what's going on
in your life over and over and over
again.
Let me tell you about this thing
that many people find quite helpful.
The next thing I say is I talk
about how, what I love about Hoffman
is one, it's not an experiment. It is
not the Hoffman experiment.
Hoffman has been at it for over fifty
(19:08):
years. I I think over a 100,000 people
have gone through it at this point.
You know exactly what you're doing
in sort of taking people through that process.
And then I've had some people say, well,
my particular thing that I need the process
for
is such a unique and horrible thing. And
I'm like, trust me, it's not.
(19:30):
Like it is to you, but they've seen
absolutely
everything. And the way that the facilitators
adapt
the process for the person who's in it
within that container,
that's tried true and tested.
It's just good. The other thing is that
I have I have total faith when I
recommend people to go to Hoffman.
(19:51):
I know that the way that they are
cared for, I know it's safe.
Everybody gets the level of,
change that they're, I think, consciously and unconsciously
ready for.
You know, now that I've been in deep
work communities for a long time, I have
a lot of trust in people's
internal
system
(20:11):
breaking
at the level that they're able to go
to for things like this. So I have
total faith and trust in
Hoffman. I think there's some other healing modalities
that, you know, I don't necessarily
know. People ask me about, you know, this
tool or that medicine or that teacher or
whatever. And it's like, sometimes you don't know,
(20:31):
but I have absolute faith in Hoffman.
I know it works. I've seen it work.
I've seen it work in people's lives. There
was one person that I had known socially,
and I didn't know that they had gone
to Hoffman, but they were so different
from the person that they were that I'd
maybe seen four or five months before
(20:52):
that I actually thought this person was high
because they were so relaxed.
I was like I was in my mind,
I was like, is he high?
You know? But it was like, no. No.
He was just like he was just free.
And, so I love Hoffman. And then the
last thing I'll say, which sort of ties
up the question, is that
when I find out that people are going
(21:13):
to Hoffman,
I give them one piece of advice.
One, trust the process, and two, be like
Daniel.
Daniel wrestled with the angel until the angel
gave him his blessing. And, oh, I'm getting
a little emotional.
Be like Daniel. Give it your all. Just
give it your all. If you have a
(21:34):
critical mind,
take it and put it to the side
for that week and go all in because
whatever point of view you're bringing,
you can pick that up at the end
of the week. That's been with you forever.
You can pick it back up, but just
go all in, leave nothing on the table.
Be like Daniel,
get your blessing. You're spending a lot of
(21:57):
time. It's a big time commitment.
It isn't inexpensive and Hoffman is wonderful and
gives lots of scholarships, but it is not
inexpensive in terms of time or money. So
go there, trust the process,
leave everything on the table, be like Daniel,
and do not leave without your blessing.
And then at the end, if you wanna
pick something up again, you can, but your
(22:19):
perspective will probably be different.
Beautiful. Beautiful, Nicole. Yeah. I love Hoffman. That's
why when you said, can we interview? I
was like, absolutely.
Now what is it about the emotion that
emerged?
It must have touched something inside you.
What was moved in that moment earlier?
(22:39):
Well, I mean, part of it is Hoffman
had a huge effect on me. I remember
my before and after.
How did you know? What were the indicators
of that that you said to yourself, wow,
I I am different?
I think that's a really good point is
that the way that we know that we've
changed is when we're in the same situation,
we make a different choice.
(23:01):
That's when you know that you've changed. And
so
I had those experiences
where I just was a different person in
the same situation.
Once you're a different person, the same situation,
once or twice, you don't end up in
the same situation.
Then the other thing is that
(23:21):
I love
humans.
I love
humans. I love
our creativity and our curiosity, and I love
hope and faith. And when
someone gets their freedom,
it
moves me, you know, and I'm also really
inspired by
(23:41):
what they might do with that freedom.
It's also like how it also ties back
to
AI and technology is that one of the
things these tools are doing,
AI is going to make competence
a commodity.
Because when these things can do the spreadsheets
or count the inventory,
(24:03):
etcetera,
Like, you could take a photograph, like, I
just something crazy. Like, I'm going to
an international
meeting of
telecom regulators to speak on digital well-being and
AI and the visa.
I have to list all my travels for
the last five years for this visa. I
feel like it's a pain. You know, I'm
like, I don't remember. Last year, I took
(24:24):
55 flight because I am talking to people
about what we are discussing. And so I
basically just took photos of every page of
my passport
and then loaded it up, and it gave
me my entry exit, and it took moments.
That's something that would have taken a really
long time. And so as that competency line
goes up, there's probably someone you know
(24:47):
who you tolerate
because they're really good at doing something you
don't wanna do or you don't know how
to do. And that's gonna go away
because the competency
floor of being competent,
that's not gonna be enough.
And so as this floor rises,
you know, really where we're going is that
(25:07):
work is going to be about
human beings creating things together.
That's what jobs will be. That's what work
will be.
And in that place, like, you know, the
way to be
irreplaceable is it's really all about,
are you adaptable?
Can you adapt?
Can you change? Are you a person who
(25:28):
can lead change, inspire change during this
incredibly
difficult time that we're
going through? And so they're they're really human
attributes and elements,
and it has everything to do with
who you're being
and who you're being stands right on top
of the types of things that Hoffman gets
(25:49):
right at as well as other deep work.
The person at work who takes everyone's credit,
I believe if you follow them home and
into their past, you'll likely find a family
where
only accomplishment secured love
in this world that's coming
where the key to value will be creating
(26:10):
things with other humans and unlocking the potential
of other humans and being the kind of
person
that can inspire and create change and lead
from whatever place you have on any team.
The level of freedom you have internally,
I think will have a big impact on
people's ability to do that. So I think
this work
is going to become ever more important.
(26:33):
Yeah. So I'm just passionate about it. You're
saying something really interesting, and that is that
we could focus on
developing the technology itself.
We could focus on
being happy or being content.
But you're saying that
what the world needs and what technology
will
(26:53):
specialize
in what the world needs is adaptability,
teamwork,
and that those things will
elevate those who can
show up
in the ability to pivot, the ability to
be resilient,
and that Hoffman is part of the foundation
that creates that. Yeah. I which we get
(27:14):
just a little bit in that we're going
to have to become deeper,
freer, better humans.
And by better, I mean, I'm not using
it judgmentally
or in sort of continuous self improvement, which
I think is also a cul de sac.
But I just mean it's like getting to
that deep human place
where we are in good relationship with ourselves,
(27:37):
like real, true, deep, good relationship with ourselves,
which includes
everything from being able to set a boundary.
That is deep, beautiful relationship with self.
Are we capable of being in good deep
relationship with others?
That's conflict resolution.
And are we able to be in good
and deep relationship
with our environment, which is also like our
(27:59):
machines?
How do we think about these things? How
do we build them? How do we design
them? The age of AI is anything. It's
the age of relationship,
which is a little bit counterintuitive
because of this importance
of having these very human skills.
All of humanity's knowledge is on the internet.
So owning facts that used to give people
(28:20):
an edge. There's no edge in owning a
fact.
The evolution of this
is that there are a set of things
that there's sort of like no edge in
doing it. Having information
doesn't make you special. Yeah. Being able
to go through a passport and pull out
things does not make you special either.
What makes you special is what really makes
(28:42):
you special, which is, like, who are you,
and are you in deep relationship
with yourself?
Can you be in deep relations with others?
And do you know how to use the
tools in a way that is beneficial
to you?
Nicole, you spoke earlier about the cul de
sac of continuous self improvement.
And I've just noticed a trend recently where
(29:04):
it's been around, but it just seems like
it's coming more and more, and that is
the people who come to Hoffman to optimize.
They're in the podcast, and they're in the
optimization
world, and Hoffman is just a step in
that.
And so can you just share
and distinguish between this deep relationship with yourself
(29:25):
that you referenced as so important
and the difference between that
and this optimization
that
is a cul de sac. It's not the
same thing. Can you talk about that a
little bit? Why are they not the same
thing? Well, just to prepare you on the
other side, I'm gonna ask you, how does
Hoffman deal with that? Because it used to
(29:46):
be a well kept secret
with Hoffman making that decision
to not do the equivalent of multilevel marketing.
That ethos of Hoffman
made it so, like, you weren't out there
before.
And I was actually really glad when you
started to because I'm African American and people
in different communities are hearing about it now.
(30:07):
So I think that's wonderful, but it's like
the way that you do it is so
elegant. I have a lot of respect for
Hoffman.
The tagline is like when you're ready for
change
and people will hear about it because they're
ready for improvement.
The eggs that you're getting are different
than the eggs that you got before when,
like, you know, people found you when they
were truly desperate.
(30:28):
I mean, I would say that the difference
is that and just to give some context
is that I love deep work. Part of
it is that I'm an explorer. So, you
know, initially I did deep work for some
very specific issues and some very specific things
that I wanted to
experience differently in the world. I'm always curious.
And so I became really curious about understanding
(30:50):
myself more. It started out like I was
talking to someone about meditation.
I said, it's meditation started out as medication
to like manage my stress and then ended
up being the way that I understood the
pure nature of reality.
Now meditation is like holding space and time.
(31:11):
But in the beginning, it was medication and
now it's
folding space time. When I started doing deep
work, I wanted to have a better relationship
with myself, with others.
I did a big chunk for about ten
years.
Also, the other thing that I'll bring to
it before I answer that question
is as I've seen the optimizers in many
different categories,
(31:31):
and certainly I've had that element, and I
know lots of people who are.
I think there's, like, three styles.
I call it the growth pyramid. On one
side, there's
capacity builders.
Meditation is a ongoing capacity builder.
Emotional release work is a capacity builder.
And then there's pattern breakers,
therapy, and things like that. Like, there's things
(31:53):
that really break patterns, and then there's paradigm
shifters. And so paradigm shifters are things like,
you know, when people do psychedelic assisted therapy
or other things like that, it's like a
fence with a trampoline next to it. And
so you jump on the trampoline and you
get to see above the fence, but those
aren't maintainable.
A meditation retreat is a paradigm shifter on
(32:14):
par with psychedelics.
By day four of a silent retreat, it
is a psychedelic experience
for many people. I think that's why they
make them silent because it's like, if you
knew how many people were tripping out by
day four of just air, you know, you
might run from the space.
I've done a lot of work with Art
of Accomplishment. I love Joe Hudson and and
that whole community. And then also,
(32:36):
I took the coaching training for,
a conscious leadership group
and, CLG and Diana Chapman. I love
Diana and Jim. Love, love, love, love, love.
I've done a ton of meditation.
I spent thirty three days in the jungles
of Myanmar with the Mahasi Sayadaw.
I sat with Dan Brown before he passed.
(32:57):
For those who are listening, he was one
of the greatest Western teachers
of Tibetan Bonn.
So as we are on this journey, like,
I think when someone shows up at Hoffman,
there might be an optimizer
showing up at Hoffman.
There's a soul and intuition in that, and
it's just I'm about to get emotional because
it's like you just like, seeing people do
(33:18):
deep work is so beautiful, and it's basically
it's just like,
you know, it's a racket.
And it's just it's like we're just trying
to be safe.
You know? We're just trying
to feel safe and be loved. And so
that optimization
is a racket.
And so, like, when I see it happening,
(33:39):
I actually just feel
love and compassion
and the people, they just work it. You
know, I think for me, one of the
things that really changed for me too is
that it was actually through meditation
that I fell into
a deep,
extraordinary
love of myself.
I just,
(34:00):
I love myself
so much.
And I remember, you know, when I was
a younger woman, I remember mentors
telling me, oh, you just have to love
yourself. And I remember thinking,
like, what? Like, how do you do that?
Like, what? Tell me. Just tell me how.
Tell me how.
I think that the optimization, it eventually works
(34:21):
itself out of the system. And it's just
one of those things. It's like, oh, that's
what they're doing right now.
Eventually, we get to a point that those
coping mechanisms because that optimization,
it is a belief that if I can
optimize myself, then I will be safe.
It's just a coping mechanism,
and it worked
when they
first picked it up. All of our coping
(34:43):
mechanisms,
we have them for a reason.
They worked
until they didn't.
And so I think if they keep doing
the deep work, eventually, the racket breaks.
That's what I think about it. It relates
so much to,
kin to what we do at the process
in terms of understanding that
patterns are coping mechanisms,
(35:04):
and they work until they don't. They have
a shelf life. They have an expiration date.
And
we all have patterns,
but we are not our patterns.
And so if we can continue to peel
away
those layers,
then you work with the shame
that drives that. So
to answer your question earlier that you said
(35:25):
we would get to, which is what is
Hoffman doing with those optimizers,
we're trying to help them understand the shame
that can drive so much of the optimization
behavior.
If they can keep going underneath
the shame,
to really understand shame is to know that
underneath it, on the other side of it,
is your essence,
(35:46):
that deep soulful place that we all want
to get to. When you say, I mean,
I love myself. I love myself. That's
that's our spiritual self,
unconditionally
self loving, such a beautiful place to be.
Yeah. And I think Hoffman, it does
such a great job.
There's a moment where you see yourself doing
(36:08):
the thing that you do,
and instead of cringing,
you're like, oh, look at me. I'm doing
it again. You know? I'm doing the thing.
There's a point where you get to the
love of it.
The riddle that is embedded in all of
this is that in order to truly change,
we have to love that thing that we
(36:29):
do unconditionally.
But if you love it unconditionally to change
it,
you're not loving it. So it keeps dragging
around and you have to optimize around it.
You have to rule base your psychology to
make that thing not happen.
When you get to the point
where whatever that thing is, you
actually can love it as it is, love
(36:49):
yourself as you are with that thing,
then it's like they just sort of melt
away. It's a puzzle of the ages. And
it's one of those things that's like before
you have the experience, you're like, but tell
me how.
And then on the other side of it,
you're like, oh, yeah.
It's the journey.
It's the journey to freedom.
So good, Nicole. So good. I see why
you're in this work helping
(37:10):
bring everything you're sharing about humans,
which is such a deep,
nuanced understanding and that relationship
to change.
Humans
change
technology.
Wow. What a great one, two, three,
out of the
park combination. Thank you for your work.
(37:32):
I
believe
that these next ten years really matter.
I will say for the deep meditators
out there,
one of the places where I'm at right
now is that a little while ago, probably
it was a couple of years ago, I
was in a meditation experience and
I was so deep.
I was so deep in the fabric. I
(37:54):
was in the understory,
deep down there. You know? No place, no
time, timeless,
that place that is empty and full simultaneously,
that there's absolutely nothing.
I had the experience
of becoming
aware of the observer.
I witnessed the witness, and I observed the
observer.
It wasn't that the observer finally saw me.
(38:16):
It was that I finally was aware
of the observer and the witness that is
there. And then the next sense I had
was it was like an image
of a drop of water, and it was
close-up. My perspective was right at the water
drop.
And, with that, I had the understanding that
we've always been together. We all have always
(38:38):
been together, all of us, all of us.
We're all together
all the time. On this level,
I feel that this particular puzzle that we
have around how do we live with technology
and how does humanity evolve
and who are we going to be
over this next chapter? Do we solve the
puzzle
(38:58):
of how we show up with each other
in this particular
version?
And I think we have about ten years
to know if this is going to be
more like Hunger Games or Star Trek.
This is really the moment. This is the
moment. I'm in my fifties,
and I did a great deal of work.
I have a lot of capabilities and capacities.
(39:20):
There is nothing that anyone could do to
have me go back to my twenties now,
you know, and be 20 years old right
now. And it's really because this is the
time for all of us. I imagine many
people who are listening
to be an adult,
to be
aware,
awake,
talented,
capable
(39:41):
at this moment.
Oh, I'm getting chills. Like, this is the
moment. This is the moment for us to
bring
our freedom
to the problems,
the intractable
problems.
For anyone who's listening, I did air quotes,
like the intractable
problems that have been facing us
as a species. And so
it is the most exciting time to put
(40:02):
you alive. It's the most amazing time to
be be alive, and it is the time
where
bringing a healed internal
state to
these challenges
is important. So for people who have kids
and look at the news and you have
the question,
what's gonna happen to college students, what's gonna
happen to children, then it's really like, if
(40:24):
you have any unfinished business
internally,
get that done, get that done because now
is the time we're shaping it.
The things that
Hoffman helps people get out of the way
in how they deal with themselves and deal
with other people,
how they relate to themselves and relate to
other people. These are the leadership skills.
(40:45):
These are the present skills
that allow us to adapt in the moment.
When people are running scripts, they get very
rigid.
You can't have a new piece of information
come in and respond to it in an
elegant way
if you're running scripts.
And so these childhood scripts
gotta do the work to get rid of
(41:05):
the scripts, to not be ruled by the
scripts. If you want to lean towards the
side
of
humans,
our species,
evolving to the place that we can solve
these problems, some of which are existential.
Nicole,
so
good. I can feel the passion and the
importance
(41:26):
of what this means for you and what
it means for us as humans and then
the collective us as a society.
Thank you for this conversation. What's it like
to
talk about
Hoffman
and the work you do and who you
are? How do you feel as we wrap
up here? I feel great.
I love the puzzle,
(41:47):
and I love how I show up to
the puzzle
in that I'm actually unattached to the outcome.
Also, because I know that we've always been
together,
sun up to sun down,
every moment, every day.
I am working on the problem
of how we
help
people heal, grow, and thrive
at scale. And scale's become a dirty word
(42:08):
because of how it's affiliated
with social media,
but it really just means for everyone
and what might be possible. And so the
way my brain works and my superpower
has a lot to do with
seeing things that look unrelated and pulling them
together.
I think it makes a lot of sense
to talk about
technology AI and Hoffman in the same conversation,
(42:32):
because it's a part of the same solution
set. What we have to do is to
understand how we can actually, like, change these
systems
and bring these things together
so that we actually create the system that
allows
humanity to shift in the way that we
need to to live with the tools that
we've built
and also our curious natures.
(42:53):
Well, thanks for your curious nature
today, Nicole, and
people can check out your website, nicolebradford.com.
And,
look at the show notes because we'll have
lots of links to all the good stuff
you talked about.
Human tech week is going to be April
27 through May 2, and it's going to
(43:13):
be all about this technology and all across
San Francisco.
Awesome.
Nicole, thanks for your time. Really, really appreciate
you and this conversation.
Likewise.
Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
(43:34):
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and
president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Razzi Grassi,
Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute
Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In
themselves, in each other, and in the world.
To find out more, please go to hompaninstitute.org.
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