October 10, 2024 • 39 mins
Michael Wenger is a Hoffman teacher and past Director of Hoffman International. In this conversation, he shares stories of the early days when the Hoffman Process was first introduced in European countries. This is a delightful conversation about the Hoffman Process's early days, how the Process spread internationally, and about Michael and his spiritual journey.**
Michael first learned about the Process in August '86 from his brother who participated in the first European Process. Michael then participated in the second European Process in early '87. Both of these were taught in Germany. Students of these first two Processes then opened Hoffman Institute centers in Germany, France, and Austria, helping to begin to spread the Process throughout Europe. Michael decided to become a Hoffman teacher himself. Fluent in four languages, he helped Bob Hoffman translate the teachings he experienced in English into the four languages he knew.
Eventually, Michael helped establish the Hoffman Institute in Italy alongside his sister, Hoffman teacher, Lisa Wenger. Over the years. Michael taught the Hoffman Process within various cultural settings. He came to see the various ways that each culture approached the work differently. Michael shares how each culture approaches the work differently. As he says, the cultural differences become clear because the Process is the same no matter where it is taught.
** This episode mentions substance abuse and is marked explicit for language. Please use your discretion.
We hope you enjoy this conversation with Michael and Drew.
More about Michael Wenger:
After an adventurous youth exploring many limits of lifestyles and consciousness, working as a DJ, Barman, and Actor, Michael met Bob Hoffman in 1987 and attended one of the first Hoffman Programs in Europe. Being fluent in four languages, Michael then followed Bob who was introducing Hoffman to many different countries, thus being able to move quickly through the training to become a Hoffman Process Teacher under the supervision of Bob. In 1990 he assisted his sister Lisa in introducing the Hoffman Institute in Italy and facilitating the Hoffman program for over thirty years. For eight years he also worked as one of the three executive directors of Hoffman Institute International.
(Photo, L-R: Michael, Bob Hoffman, Lisa Wenger, Beatrice Wenger)
For the past few years, apart from occasionally teaching the Hoffman Process, Michael has been dedicating his time to exploring non-dual awareness and meditation, facilitating retreats (www.camminoaperto.info) inspired by Pir Elias Amidon, Rupert Spira, Ramesh Balsekar, and many other mystical teachers. He lives in the hills above Lugano, Switzerland.
As mentioned in this episode:
'68 Hippies
Michael's Brother died of AIDS
Canary Islands
Celebration of Integration:
This portion of the Process experience happens toward the end of the week. This is when students begin to integrate the parts of their Quadrinity. The Quadrinity is the four aspects of self: Spiritual Self, Body, Intellect, and Emotional Self.
Stanley Stefancic, former Hoffman teacher.
• Stanley's obituary
• Listen to Stan on the Hoffman Podcast
Lisa Wenger
• Listen to Lisa on the Hoffman Podcast
Non-Dual Spirituality
Western Sufism
Paradox
White Sulphur Springs, St Helena, CA
• Home of the Hoffman Process for many years. California's oldest retreat site was nearly destroyed in the Glass Fire.
• Read more about White Sulphur Springs
Hoffman International
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
His face was totally
changed. After 1 week, his face was
rosy,
not gray,
alive. His eyes were shining.
And I saw this face and I said,
what?
1 week and you can buy it? I
want that. And so I just had to
(00:21):
see my brother. Then I decided to do
Hoffman because that's where he came from.
Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and
this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute
and its stories and anecdotes
and people we interview
(00:43):
about their life post process
and how it lives in the world radiating
love.
Please be aware that this episode references
substance abuse.
Please use your discretion.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast. Michael
(01:04):
Venger
is with us. Welcome, Michael. Hi. Hi, Drew.
So nice to be here. It's great to
have you.
You know, this is gonna be a great
conversation. You have such a connection to some
of the origins
of Hoffman in Italy
and just so much history
as we have this conversation. I'm just aware
(01:27):
there's gonna be lots of
beautiful reflections about being a Hoffman teacher, but
also about kind of cofounding the institute in
Italy with your sister. Right? Yes. Absolutely.
And well, I mean, I would even say
I was there at the origin of the
Hoffman process in Europe in general. Europe in
general. So would you introduce yourself? Tell us
(01:48):
a little bit about who you are? Yes.
I can do that.
I think I'm I can say that right
now after so many
years, I'm really grateful to the life I
had
because there were so incredible
and many, many, many
experiences I had.
Just that as an introduction. So
(02:12):
in the beginning, I mean, I I grew
up, was born in Switzerland, in the German
part of Switzerland, and,
had a normal childhood.
Nothing special to say there.
Although everything was perfect, I was
born
in 52.
So 1968,
I was 16.
(02:32):
And
soon after that
were the hippies were very present. So I
became a passionate,
convinced
hippie and had a lot of
adventures that I need not to tell because
many of my age have had these experiences,
learned a lot,
(02:54):
but fell in a lot of difficult
holes,
maybe
worked on themselves to get out or not.
And for me personally,
I was a DJ. I was a car
washer.
I
was a waiter for lessons. I did theater
school. I was a for 5 years, I
(03:14):
was an actor.
Everything you can imagine happened. And then at
one day, my brother,
who was one of these guys who,
was
doing psychology,
this all these people who are doing this
funny
work on themselves, I mean, I thought that
was all bullshit.
But one time, he came back in that
(03:36):
time we lived together, and he came back
from
one of these seminars he was visiting,
and his face was
totally
changed.
All of a sudden, he's after 1 week,
his
face was
rosy,
not gray,
alive. His eyes were shining.
(03:59):
And I saw this face and I said,
what?
One week and you can buy it?
I want that. And so I just had
to see my brother, then I decided to
do Hoffman because that's where he came from.
And so where did he do the process?
He did the he did the first process
in,
(04:20):
in Germany, in Europe at that time. Because
Bob Hoffman at that time was
very active in in promoting the process and
he had been invited to a conference
in the Canary Islands that was organized by
some German
esoteric people. And there he talked about Hoffman
at that conference. And the organizers of this
(04:42):
conference, Martin Kramer and Dieter Schmidt and some
other friends invited him to Germany
to do Hoffman there. And in that first
half month in August
86,
a lot of people did Hoffman that afterwards
would open
countries where Hoffman then would be promoted.
(05:04):
For the first was Switzerland. That was my
sister-in-law.
My brother was the first. But in Italy,
after
Austria,
even then France,
Spain,
Italy.
Oh, then after the UK.
So that was quite a lot of them.
So the French,
(05:26):
institutes,
the German institutes, the Austrian institutes, they all
were in these first two processes.
Guys who did
promote it in Germany.
And of these processes,
they are still functioning
in all these countries.
And part of that was because
Bob was traveling and meeting people that would
(05:49):
then take on the process and expand it
in Europe?
Exactly. It was done in in the German
speaking part. That's why the German speaking countries
were the first he would be invited to
and to do the process.
He met people and,
or people heard about the process
and promoted or organized it then. There was
(06:12):
one thing that was important.
After
very short time.
The esoteric
newspaper
of that moment,
magazine of that moment, made an incredible
positive
article as the main article of that
magazine of that month. It was named in
(06:33):
7 days to the higher self.
And it had a explosion
of
enrollments
in the German speaking countries.
And so you took the process.
How many years ago was that? Well, I
tell you, where we started was immediately after.
I saw as my brother did the first
process in Europe, immediately after that in 87,
(06:56):
I did my process.
I liked it incredibly. I would like to
say something about my personal
experience in the process.
One has to know that in my hippie
times, like many of these times, I had
a lot of problems with drugs.
In that process,
I arrived at the moment. It was
the celebration of integration.
(07:18):
One of the last days,
there was a moment
where I had an experience of light
coming into me and
filling me out from all directions
and in all directions. And
I felt for the first time what it
is to be
my being and not to be my character.
(07:41):
To be what,
say, in Hoffman, my
I would say the higher self, spiritual self.
And not that we are
our spiritual selves and we have emotions and
we have intellect, we have a body. That
was the first time that I realized that.
And the second thing I realized in that
(08:02):
moment was
that I was
as high as I was never before, and
I was totally sober.
Sober and yet
high.
And for my drug problems, that was the
thing to heal, you know?
That was where the healing from my in
my whole life started. You could feel high
(08:25):
and be sober
at the same time. And high in another
way also. You know, it's not the high
of being, well, fucked up. It's the contrary.
It's the the high of being a total
joy. Yeah. But not the high of escaping,
but the high of connecting.
Of being.
Yeah. Of being what I really am. Michael,
(08:47):
I just have to say, you're in this
conversation
in Italy right now. Right? Northern Italy?
I'm leaving an hour or half an hour
from Italy. I'm leaving in the Italian
speaking part of Switzerland.
I see. And the building you're in, for
example, like the town you're in,
it dates back I imagine that history in
(09:09):
Europe is so much different than history in
the US.
And these are old buildings you you occupy.
Right? Yes. We are in we are in
old buildings.
I think the oldest is about the 15th
century
times. But
this place was also
they were living people of, I believe, in
(09:30):
the last 2000 years, basically.
Only there that the buildings are not here
anymore.
Europe is old.
Europe is
small in a way because the distances are
very small. I mean, actually Switzerland has 4
languages
that are spoken,
and we
are 8,000,000 people.
(09:51):
Four languages
and yet just 8,000,000 people and
having really kind of been raised in such
a more crowded
environment
than compared to the United States.
It's really culturally you know, it is very
different with
things that are beautiful in the Europe. It's
the depth, it's the past that we have.
(10:14):
And in the US, and in the Americas
in general, there is the space, the possibilities,
the fact that there is no another past
that in some way we started anew as
a culture there.
Tell us a little bit about
Hoffman, Italy.
You took the process, you come out, and
(10:35):
you say,
well, this is what I wanna do. What
happens?
No. It's not like this that it happened,
but nearly.
I mean, when I did
my first process, I liked it and it
was my sister-in-law
that organized the second one. And then I
said my to my sister-in-law, listen, can I
help
carrying boxes or something? She said, yes.
(10:57):
And then I came to help and I
was sitting in in the sessions, you know,
which was very at the beginning, it was
very handmade
still.
Kind of primitive.
In that sense. Yes. And and, you know,
it was one person
teaching, others doing it while doing it.
So I helped there and,
the American teachers
(11:18):
were teaching here. Bob,
Stan Listerfancic,
who passed recently,
and others
also from Brazil who spoke Italian.
They came to teach, but I was talking
about the German things. And then I saw
how these other teachers were teaching this stuff
Because I did also, help in the second
(11:40):
and this third process to translate
Bob Hoffman or Stan Stefanczyk
or whomever came to teach. And then I
realized, hey, this I can do.
What they do, I can do. I just
realized I can see people, I can name
patterns.
(12:01):
So
that was it at that time. And then
I asked if I can start the training,
and I did start the training. That's what
I wanted to do. I wanted to teach.
And then I taught everywhere in Europe.
And not only since I speak the languages,
I could teach in France, and I could
teach in Austria,
(12:22):
and in the UK, and in the US,
and in the German.
Then at a certain time, Lisa
decided and with my support
to bring it to Italy.
And then she was doing the administration and
organization
and the the whole business part while I
(12:42):
was doing the supervision,
the presentations,
the teaching of the teachers.
This incredible teacher, Lisa, was my student. Not
in the process, but as a
teacher. I was
so that's really
Wow.
What was that like before you founded it
to teach it in so many different languages,
(13:04):
so many different cultures?
This thing you got to know so well
and yet
was presented
in these different languages and different
countries. What did you notice in that experience?
That is now a very interesting question, Royce.
Because
the process being
(13:26):
the same
everywhere,
and also not the same because you have
to adapt it so that it is
understandable
not only in the language, so you have
to translate all the for the organizers, it's
being the same everywhere,
the process.
You see
(13:46):
the cultural
differences,
And that's so incredible
because
how an Italian reacts, how a French reacts,
how a UK person reacts is so different
and do I understood something
a little bit embarrassing
that prejudices
that we have on people
(14:08):
came mostly true in that sense.
You know, one believes that,
English people, they are a little bit held
back and, you know, and a little bit.
Yes. That's how they are.
And they are very, it's very,
very polite.
There are many
structures how one does behave.
(14:30):
When you meet in English, you say, you
talk about the weather,
but you don't talk about the weather. That's
not what we're doing there.
So there are these things, and you have
to know that in the UK.
In Italy, you can tell to some participant
is behaving a little bit
not okay,
(14:50):
yeah, in the group, let's say. In Italy,
you can say, hey, Giovanni, come on. Look
at how you're behaving. You can't do that.
I know. Look what what you're doing. In
the UK, if you want to say the
same thing and have the same effect, you
have to say, oh, John, could I have
a a little word with you, please?
There were times that when I observed you,
I could imagine that other people might be
(15:12):
just a little bit would feel so well.
Same message, phrased very differently. But part of
what you're saying, Michael, is some of these
stereotypes
around
different cultural norms
actually are kinda true in your observations over
the years. And it's very good to know
(15:32):
that. My grandfather, at least our grandfather,
said, if you want to be understood,
talk to others as if they were donkeys.
Talk to others as if they were donkeys.
Express
yourself understandably.
So as you develop as a teacher, you
become
aware of the nuanced ways you communicate
(15:53):
in different
cultural
contexts,
and then you bring the process to
Italy?
Well, Lisa and I, at the certain moment,
decided to do that, to bring that to
Italy. And then we asked Bob Hoffman, of
course, to come to teach the first process.
And we had a teacher from Brazil who
(16:15):
spoke a little bit English.
And we had my sister-in-law
who was teaching the process in Switzerland. And
they came, and we did a wonderful
Italian
environment,
the Hoffman process, like you would imagine a
Tuscany with the little hills and the prison,
just beautiful.
(16:36):
But
we didn't know
yet how to teach the process.
Bob Hoffman
sometimes was socially not very
delicate with people. He had
a very direct way of speaking and
did not have an awareness that
cultures are different. So
(16:57):
on the way, I can tell you there
were so many misunderstandings
in that first process.
There was so much to laugh about and
to be embarrassed about.
And if I can make another
point of view there, it showed something that
I also
learned
by teaching in other countries.
(17:19):
Is that
the process
function even when it was taught in bad
ways. I was teaching
everywhere in the world. Sometimes you have processes
that are,
let's say, from the professionality,
perfect, by the way, the US,
one of these countries.
(17:40):
But there are many others also where it's
done fantastic.
And there are some countries where it's not
or centers
where it is
okay, not so deep effect
on the people is
basically the same. And I thought
that is like is one of the miracles
of the Hoffman process.
(18:01):
It's not so much about the people who
are teaching it. It's really about
the people who are doing it, who are
taking it, who are going into the experiencing
and making it, and using the
facilitators
that are there to help them do that
experience.
Michael, you're saying something that I resonate with
(18:23):
too as a teacher that
it is not about the gurus upfront. It's
not
the personalities,
the dynamic,
expansive
facilitators.
It's about this students doing it, the container
that the process holds, the experiences,
the rituals
that people engage in during the week.
(18:46):
Exactly.
And this is for us teachers and for
the teachers,
so difficult
and so important to learn.
I was teaching a lot of teachers, let's
say.
And I loved
teaching
how to do the process.
This is a difficult one because
we as teachers, we are
(19:08):
facilitators
of such a deep experience
for the participant
that, of course, she or he thinks
it has something to do with the facilitators,
but it doesn't.
And the facilitator thinks it too, and that's
where the problem can be. You know that
a teacher facilitated
(19:29):
things that I'm doing this work.
And it's so it's not so easy also
as a teacher because, of course, we try
and we must do try to do the
job
the best we can. There's a
certain amount of humility
that you're talking about as an important thing
to embrace
in the role of teacher.
(19:51):
I think so. And I think also that
when you are teaching, Hoffman,
you learn that also through
the teaching. You can become
more humble.
Yeah. You touched on Bob for a minute.
You know, I wanna go back
because
it is called the Hoffman process. Bob did
(20:12):
found it, and he was
a unique being.
I think maybe it takes that kind of
uniqueness
to
bring into
existence
something like Hoffman.
I'm just wondering if you could share a
little bit about
Bob and your experiences with him, getting to
(20:32):
know him. It's been a long time since
he's been involved with the process. He's passed
many years ago. But what was he like?
Oh, Bob
Bob and I had difficult times together and
beautiful ones.
But, I was one of the teachers with
whom he had,
and who had conflicts with him.
(20:52):
Beautiful ones. I had wonderful experiences with him.
But we also
truly, we were robbing each other somehow. Like
butting heads almost.
Yeah. Almost.
What people
forget
is that Bob was really
a extraordinary being or a unique being, you
said. Yes.
(21:13):
He was that.
And
he was filled
with the necessary
passion for his Hoffman process
that it needs
to bring into the world a thing like
Hoffman. You know, it he was extreme in
his passions
for the Hoffman
process.
With all
(21:34):
the negative side, that's an most extremisms,
even if it's for a passion,
bring. But one of the most important things
for me where Bob was extraordinary,
that he channeled
the central
thing that is
powerful in Hoffman,
he channeled that. He got that boom, gifted
(21:58):
through his intuition from
in in the Hoffman
thing, from his spirit.
It was channeled. It was intuitive.
It was not thought.
It came from somewhere
much deeper.
And that's why I believe
this structure that the process
carries in itself is so powerful because it
(22:20):
has a deep truth to it. To see
him work because he was just a sensitive
person. I mean, I was his student. I
mean, I was participating.
So he was my the teacher of my
small group. Right? Then there was a first
meeting with him, and we said, hello. And
then he just told me how I was,
(22:41):
my patterns and my difficulties, and where I
was cheating, and where I was not honest.
I hadn't said anything nearly. And how accurate
was he? Totally.
He is you look and since I was
at the beginning, I was really traveling around
with him a lot because
I was able
(23:02):
to follow him in every process. That's why
I think I
am by now the most the teacher with
the most, oldness, how to say.
Years of experience.
Yes. I think there's nobody older than me.
I mean, I did the last Hoffman in
January this year.
How old are you? 72.
(23:24):
Anyway, but this thing of Hoffman being a
channel.
When we were in France, for instance, we
had this free afternoon. I took a free
afternoon because he wanted to see Carnac. Carnac
is
just like Stonehenge
in the in the UK.
Is a thing with menhirs that go in
(23:45):
lands
onto the sea.
It is a very famous,
you know, place like Stonehenge. So we went
there, and we were walking. He was standing
between these things, and then was he was
saying, I
wonder where they come from.
Put his hand on the stone.
And then he said, well, I see a
(24:05):
man. He has only some fur as a
instead of trousers.
And I asked him where they come from,
and he says it comes from that mountain,
but there's no mountain there.
Straight.
And then the guy who was with us
said, well, there used to be a mountain
there.
So part of what you're saying, Michael, is
that Bob
(24:26):
went up to these stones, put his hands
there, got a message about the history of
how they got there,
that they came from this mountain, but you
both could see clearly there was no mountain
there.
And then he even did it again and
got the same message that they came from
the mountain. And then the guy jumps in
and says, well, there was actually a mountain
(24:48):
there in the past. That had been that
had been
washed down. That had been washed away. Yeah.
And so what I want him to say
that
is that he had that
direct
thing and he used a lot of tools
in the Hoffman process that were more based
on
(25:08):
intuition that were not now
in the Hoffman process anymore. Because
intuition you cannot learn.
It's not something that you can just teach
to a teacher,
You know, you can learn it.
So these tools, and for me, unfortunately,
(25:28):
are dropped.
Doesn't matter on the process.
Process works anyway. It was just for they
were so magical
and
incredible
tools. I don't know. They still do the
Cymbal test? The Cymbal experience is still in
the process. Yeah. But it's the last thing
that is still in there. Yeah. You're saying
(25:49):
the process still works, but it's lost some
of the
intuitive
interpretation
that teachers bring
in part because as we have new teachers,
it's not something you can necessarily teach these
new teachers how to be intuitive. Exactly. It's
not it's not such an obvious thing, you
know. And I think to make
(26:10):
Kaufman
as successful as it is, it is important
that you do it in the way that
you make sure that the quality is stays
on a high level of new teachers.
In that context,
you would probably lose half the teacher because
that
you can't teach.
As I said, the most important
(26:34):
experience in the many experience of of it
was that
experience of light
that I had
prepared throughout the whole process. But then
after that,
okay, yes, I talked to Hoffman for
many
years and, I mean, I've been on the
(26:55):
professional level. I continued with Liza, Italy and
even when Liza went out after some years
and my wife came in from the beginning,
and then the 2 of us were doing
Italy, and then I got ill 10 years
ago, severely ill, so I had to be
to interrupt. I couldn't work anymore. And in
(27:15):
the meantime, like so often it happens,
I split with my wife. I sold her
my part of the Hoffman Institute and stopped
working for Hoffman because for 2 years I
couldn't do it anyway anymore. I started another
thing and that has had then to do
just
with spirituality.
And that was so
coherent
(27:36):
on my life before, on what hit me
in Hoffman,
what I tried to support
in my whole life as a teacher. And
now the last 10 years,
I'm just busy with non dual
spirituality
in
the context of a Sufi order, but of
a western Sufi order that is not connected
(27:58):
only with Islam. Not at all. How would
you define Sufism?
Well, the best
definition
that I was given is
a Sufi is somebody who feels at ease
with
paradoxes.
There's that non dual.
The Sufism,
(28:19):
as I understand it, is a very old
thing. It's and I believe it has basically
to do with people who were working with
consciousness and philosophy before philosophy even started.
One philosophical
thing is that it seems that it started
anyway still also that increase came from Greece
to the east, then to India, then from
(28:41):
India back to Turkey, and now back to
the west again. So that's also in the
story. People say Jesus was a Sufi because
that's how it looks like. That is just
people who were interested in the true mystery
of what life is, what is real, what
God is, what we are.
Why do you think
(29:03):
this nondualism
and
paradox holding
is so important
in today's world? It seems like we live
in an all or nothing kind of up
or down,
forced
dichotomy
world.
Why is that Sufi approach
of
holding the paradox so important today? I believe
(29:24):
it's like kind of white blood cells. White
blood cells. Yes. You just gave a description
of the situation on the planet.
If I say more grossly and more uglier,
like, is we have a total chaos and
we're going towards collective suicide.
Right? That is what I believe is our
planetary
situation.
(29:45):
So
our system, our human being says, woah, we
have to do something
and creates like in the sixties, in my
opinion, the hippies and the drugs.
It creates something to make a
strong change in consciousness
to try to go in a better direction.
(30:06):
That's why I believe
that now
holding
paradoxes is so important because as you say,
it's too chaotic.
Mind cannot do it anymore.
It's too much. We have to go in
another
level of being which has to do with
love and the heart and being kind and
being compassionate
(30:27):
and helping. And so in this direction, that
can help us.
And Hoffman, for me, does the first step
in that direction.
Absolutely.
Because it starts
to be more kind to yourself.
Which is a key first step? The critical
first step. Critical first step. Absolutely.
What's next for you, Michael? You live with
(30:50):
Lisa.
Your mom is also there. She's
a 102,
about to turn a 103
and healthy.
Fantastic.
What's next for you? What do your days
entail?
The days is one thing, but what does
the life look like now? Right?
And then I comes,
(31:11):
something
that a teacher told me once.
There are 3
stations in life. No?
Youth,
adulthood,
and looking good. When you're in the looking
good phase. The looking good phase is now
that to the old people, you also, you
look good. And the subtype is fuck, he's
being old now.
(31:32):
So I feel at the very beginning of
the third phase, at the beginning of a
new phase. And it's with the phase of
of getting old and at the very end,
it's dying. Right? But it's clearly,
I'm at the beginning,
but I'm not a young guy anymore. I'm
an elder now. You and I taught together
some,
(31:52):
maybe 12, 13
years ago
in White Sulphur Springs in California,
and you used to come over
from Italy to teach every now and then.
Right? Yeah. That was nice.
Yeah. That was a beautiful sight, wasn't it?
Oh, it was great. But, you know, for
the participants,
the site where they do the process
(32:14):
is the most beautiful sight.
I mean, we were once in Italy,
we we were doing it
in a place that was so incredibly hot
in summer, you could not support it. It
was an ugly hotel
in a quite nice environment,
but the inside and outside ugly. People came
back to make vacation steps
(32:36):
because, you know, in their memories, the most
beautiful.
So there you see how the mind the
feelings actually
colors all. What else should we talk about?
I don't wanna wrap unless you've gotten everything
out. I've been also for 8 years, executive
director of Hoffman International.
And explain
(32:56):
for the listeners what
role
Hoffman International plays
in the larger Hoffman Stratosphere.
Hoffman is,
if you could say, is a franchise system.
That's the nearest it is working together. It's
it's the nearest description of a system, how
(33:16):
we are is it would be a
franchise system, but not a very good functioning
franchise system. Let's say, like this. There are
some very big centers.
The biggest is,
some who do many, many processes,
many, many,
students. And they are very small. They are
middle centers, and they have realities
(33:36):
that are very different one from each other.
And all this is the administrative
core of it, or 3
executive directors
who are also
license holders. That's who are also have also
are one of these,
(33:57):
license license holders. Yes. They are elected by
the others, and they do the administrative
things. They're the ones who collect royalties.
They're the ones who
coordinate
the Kaufman International
Conferences
where
the politics of the next 2 years, etcetera,
(34:17):
are discussed.
So these conferences where everybody
from all over the world, all the Hoffman
centers
in different countries come together.
Come together, actually. Yes. Of course. That's not
so obvious. Yes. They come together and meet
physically
usually for 5, 6 days and discuss
(34:37):
what needs to be discussed.
And try to get aligned this difficult
thing with
so different
realities
to get them on a coherent
reality.
It sounds like the differences
in the cultural
and linguistic
presentations of the process
can't get too disparate
(34:58):
that on some level, we've gotta come together
as institutes
to have at least some basic alignment. And
that's what happens at these meetings.
To try to make a a alignment and
they are pretty good in it of the
quality control. You know? There's needs of quality
control. There needs a way to enforce
breaches and stuff and stuff. All that all
(35:20):
that stuff.
That has to be done. It's an organization.
And so you had one fairly recently, maybe
6 months ago or last summer?
Since I stopped working because I thought 12
years ago, I didn't work in Italy anymore.
But
in Germany, once they called me because they
needed a teaching the last moment. They asked
(35:42):
me, could you possibly come and
fill that spot? And I said, why not?
I had already stopped working in that sense
since some years. And,
then I did it, I liked it, and
then I said, Alice, when if you need
a teacher,
you can ask me.
And but I told her,
I don't wanna be in the faculty. I
(36:03):
don't wanna do anything,
you know, outside.
If I just come and teach if you
want me. So I wouldn't be able to
teach in the US, for instance, where you
need to be somehow
inside that. No. I just come and teach
the Hoffman process.
Your life and Hoffman have been so
intertwined, have they not?
They have been. Yes. Like in my second
(36:24):
part of the 3.
The second part was Hoffman.
The adulthood part,
and then the 3rd part now is the
looking good part. Well, Michael, you are looking
good.
Nevertheless.
What what's it been like to reflect on
(36:45):
Bob and your early years as a hippie
and
the role Hoffman played in your life? What's
that been like for you?
Very nice. It took me back some
memories
that were
that were not visited since quite some times.
By the way, memories. My brother was also
was a half Natisha at the beginning,
(37:07):
and then he became AIDS, had AIDS, and
was also dying during that time. So death
was already there somehow.
That was in when we, Lisa, and I
decided to do Hoffman in Italy. I remember
one of the moments was when we were
he was still teaching in a Hoffman process,
but it was the last.
He couldn't do it physically anymore, but then
(37:28):
also
mentally because AIDS attacked his brain.
And so we had to decide to do
that adventure without him. That was a very
tough decision, but
obviously the right one because he then, of
course,
died.
That was a memory that came up now
that he was there. Yes. And he was
important for me
(37:50):
at the beginning because it was through him
that I went there. It was because also
his wife already talked about the process to
me before
that, moment moment when my brother came back.
So I had already heard about it.
Well, Michael, I'm I'm grateful for this
time,
(38:11):
your
sharing so much about those early years in
your life now, and
love to Liza.
It's been a long time since I've talked
with her, but we miss her in here
in the US.
And she told me, of course, to say
hello to you,
and, of course, I forgot.
You did you did just now.
(38:40):
Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and
president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Razzi Grassi,
Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute
Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In
themselves, in each other, and in the world.
(39:01):
To find out more, please go to hompaninstitute.org.
His face was totally
changed. After 1 week, his face was
rosy,
not gray,
alive. His eyes were shining.
And I saw this face and I said,
what?
1 week and you can buy it? I
want that. And so I just had to
(00:21):
see my brother. Then I decided to do
Hoffman because that's where he came from.
Welcome, everybody. My name is Drew Horning, and
this podcast is called Love's Everyday Radius.
It's brought to you by the Hoffman Institute
and its stories and anecdotes
and people we interview
(00:43):
about their life post process
and how it lives in the world radiating
love.
Please be aware that this episode references
substance abuse.
Please use your discretion.
Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Hoffman podcast. Michael
(01:04):
Venger
is with us. Welcome, Michael. Hi. Hi, Drew.
So nice to be here. It's great to
have you.
You know, this is gonna be a great
conversation. You have such a connection to some
of the origins
of Hoffman in Italy
and just so much history
as we have this conversation. I'm just aware
(01:27):
there's gonna be lots of
beautiful reflections about being a Hoffman teacher, but
also about kind of cofounding the institute in
Italy with your sister. Right? Yes. Absolutely.
And well, I mean, I would even say
I was there at the origin of the
Hoffman process in Europe in general. Europe in
general. So would you introduce yourself? Tell us
(01:48):
a little bit about who you are? Yes.
I can do that.
I think I'm I can say that right
now after so many
years, I'm really grateful to the life I
had
because there were so incredible
and many, many, many
experiences I had.
Just that as an introduction. So
(02:12):
in the beginning, I mean, I I grew
up, was born in Switzerland, in the German
part of Switzerland, and,
had a normal childhood.
Nothing special to say there.
Although everything was perfect, I was
born
in 52.
So 1968,
I was 16.
(02:32):
And
soon after that
were the hippies were very present. So I
became a passionate,
convinced
hippie and had a lot of
adventures that I need not to tell because
many of my age have had these experiences,
learned a lot,
(02:54):
but fell in a lot of difficult
holes,
maybe
worked on themselves to get out or not.
And for me personally,
I was a DJ. I was a car
washer.
I
was a waiter for lessons. I did theater
school. I was a for 5 years, I
(03:14):
was an actor.
Everything you can imagine happened. And then at
one day, my brother,
who was one of these guys who,
was
doing psychology,
this all these people who are doing this
funny
work on themselves, I mean, I thought that
was all bullshit.
But one time, he came back in that
(03:36):
time we lived together, and he came back
from
one of these seminars he was visiting,
and his face was
totally
changed.
All of a sudden, he's after 1 week,
his
face was
rosy,
not gray,
alive. His eyes were shining.
(03:59):
And I saw this face and I said,
what?
One week and you can buy it?
I want that. And so I just had
to see my brother, then I decided to
do Hoffman because that's where he came from.
And so where did he do the process?
He did the he did the first process
in,
(04:20):
in Germany, in Europe at that time. Because
Bob Hoffman at that time was
very active in in promoting the process and
he had been invited to a conference
in the Canary Islands that was organized by
some German
esoteric people. And there he talked about Hoffman
at that conference. And the organizers of this
(04:42):
conference, Martin Kramer and Dieter Schmidt and some
other friends invited him to Germany
to do Hoffman there. And in that first
half month in August
86,
a lot of people did Hoffman that afterwards
would open
countries where Hoffman then would be promoted.
(05:04):
For the first was Switzerland. That was my
sister-in-law.
My brother was the first. But in Italy,
after
Austria,
even then France,
Spain,
Italy.
Oh, then after the UK.
So that was quite a lot of them.
So the French,
(05:26):
institutes,
the German institutes, the Austrian institutes, they all
were in these first two processes.
Guys who did
promote it in Germany.
And of these processes,
they are still functioning
in all these countries.
And part of that was because
Bob was traveling and meeting people that would
(05:49):
then take on the process and expand it
in Europe?
Exactly. It was done in in the German
speaking part. That's why the German speaking countries
were the first he would be invited to
and to do the process.
He met people and,
or people heard about the process
and promoted or organized it then. There was
(06:12):
one thing that was important.
After
very short time.
The esoteric
newspaper
of that moment,
magazine of that moment, made an incredible
positive
article as the main article of that
magazine of that month. It was named in
(06:33):
7 days to the higher self.
And it had a explosion
of
enrollments
in the German speaking countries.
And so you took the process.
How many years ago was that? Well, I
tell you, where we started was immediately after.
I saw as my brother did the first
process in Europe, immediately after that in 87,
(06:56):
I did my process.
I liked it incredibly. I would like to
say something about my personal
experience in the process.
One has to know that in my hippie
times, like many of these times, I had
a lot of problems with drugs.
In that process,
I arrived at the moment. It was
the celebration of integration.
(07:18):
One of the last days,
there was a moment
where I had an experience of light
coming into me and
filling me out from all directions
and in all directions. And
I felt for the first time what it
is to be
my being and not to be my character.
(07:41):
To be what,
say, in Hoffman, my
I would say the higher self, spiritual self.
And not that we are
our spiritual selves and we have emotions and
we have intellect, we have a body. That
was the first time that I realized that.
And the second thing I realized in that
(08:02):
moment was
that I was
as high as I was never before, and
I was totally sober.
Sober and yet
high.
And for my drug problems, that was the
thing to heal, you know?
That was where the healing from my in
my whole life started. You could feel high
(08:25):
and be sober
at the same time. And high in another
way also. You know, it's not the high
of being, well, fucked up. It's the contrary.
It's the the high of being a total
joy. Yeah. But not the high of escaping,
but the high of connecting.
Of being.
Yeah. Of being what I really am. Michael,
(08:47):
I just have to say, you're in this
conversation
in Italy right now. Right? Northern Italy?
I'm leaving an hour or half an hour
from Italy. I'm leaving in the Italian
speaking part of Switzerland.
I see. And the building you're in, for
example, like the town you're in,
it dates back I imagine that history in
(09:09):
Europe is so much different than history in
the US.
And these are old buildings you you occupy.
Right? Yes. We are in we are in
old buildings.
I think the oldest is about the 15th
century
times. But
this place was also
they were living people of, I believe, in
(09:30):
the last 2000 years, basically.
Only there that the buildings are not here
anymore.
Europe is old.
Europe is
small in a way because the distances are
very small. I mean, actually Switzerland has 4
languages
that are spoken,
and we
are 8,000,000 people.
(09:51):
Four languages
and yet just 8,000,000 people and
having really kind of been raised in such
a more crowded
environment
than compared to the United States.
It's really culturally you know, it is very
different with
things that are beautiful in the Europe. It's
the depth, it's the past that we have.
(10:14):
And in the US, and in the Americas
in general, there is the space, the possibilities,
the fact that there is no another past
that in some way we started anew as
a culture there.
Tell us a little bit about
Hoffman, Italy.
You took the process, you come out, and
(10:35):
you say,
well, this is what I wanna do. What
happens?
No. It's not like this that it happened,
but nearly.
I mean, when I did
my first process, I liked it and it
was my sister-in-law
that organized the second one. And then I
said my to my sister-in-law, listen, can I
help
carrying boxes or something? She said, yes.
(10:57):
And then I came to help and I
was sitting in in the sessions, you know,
which was very at the beginning, it was
very handmade
still.
Kind of primitive.
In that sense. Yes. And and, you know,
it was one person
teaching, others doing it while doing it.
So I helped there and,
the American teachers
(11:18):
were teaching here. Bob,
Stan Listerfancic,
who passed recently,
and others
also from Brazil who spoke Italian.
They came to teach, but I was talking
about the German things. And then I saw
how these other teachers were teaching this stuff
Because I did also, help in the second
(11:40):
and this third process to translate
Bob Hoffman or Stan Stefanczyk
or whomever came to teach. And then I
realized, hey, this I can do.
What they do, I can do. I just
realized I can see people, I can name
patterns.
(12:01):
So
that was it at that time. And then
I asked if I can start the training,
and I did start the training. That's what
I wanted to do. I wanted to teach.
And then I taught everywhere in Europe.
And not only since I speak the languages,
I could teach in France, and I could
teach in Austria,
(12:22):
and in the UK, and in the US,
and in the German.
Then at a certain time, Lisa
decided and with my support
to bring it to Italy.
And then she was doing the administration and
organization
and the the whole business part while I
(12:42):
was doing the supervision,
the presentations,
the teaching of the teachers.
This incredible teacher, Lisa, was my student. Not
in the process, but as a
teacher. I was
so that's really
Wow.
What was that like before you founded it
to teach it in so many different languages,
(13:04):
so many different cultures?
This thing you got to know so well
and yet
was presented
in these different languages and different
countries. What did you notice in that experience?
That is now a very interesting question, Royce.
Because
the process being
(13:26):
the same
everywhere,
and also not the same because you have
to adapt it so that it is
understandable
not only in the language, so you have
to translate all the for the organizers, it's
being the same everywhere,
the process.
You see
(13:46):
the cultural
differences,
And that's so incredible
because
how an Italian reacts, how a French reacts,
how a UK person reacts is so different
and do I understood something
a little bit embarrassing
that prejudices
that we have on people
(14:08):
came mostly true in that sense.
You know, one believes that,
English people, they are a little bit held
back and, you know, and a little bit.
Yes. That's how they are.
And they are very, it's very,
very polite.
There are many
structures how one does behave.
(14:30):
When you meet in English, you say, you
talk about the weather,
but you don't talk about the weather. That's
not what we're doing there.
So there are these things, and you have
to know that in the UK.
In Italy, you can tell to some participant
is behaving a little bit
not okay,
(14:50):
yeah, in the group, let's say. In Italy,
you can say, hey, Giovanni, come on. Look
at how you're behaving. You can't do that.
I know. Look what what you're doing. In
the UK, if you want to say the
same thing and have the same effect, you
have to say, oh, John, could I have
a a little word with you, please?
There were times that when I observed you,
I could imagine that other people might be
(15:12):
just a little bit would feel so well.
Same message, phrased very differently. But part of
what you're saying, Michael, is some of these
stereotypes
around
different cultural norms
actually are kinda true in your observations over
the years. And it's very good to know
(15:32):
that. My grandfather, at least our grandfather,
said, if you want to be understood,
talk to others as if they were donkeys.
Talk to others as if they were donkeys.
Express
yourself understandably.
So as you develop as a teacher, you
become
aware of the nuanced ways you communicate
(15:53):
in different
cultural
contexts,
and then you bring the process to
Italy?
Well, Lisa and I, at the certain moment,
decided to do that, to bring that to
Italy. And then we asked Bob Hoffman, of
course, to come to teach the first process.
And we had a teacher from Brazil who
(16:15):
spoke a little bit English.
And we had my sister-in-law
who was teaching the process in Switzerland. And
they came, and we did a wonderful
Italian
environment,
the Hoffman process, like you would imagine a
Tuscany with the little hills and the prison,
just beautiful.
(16:36):
But
we didn't know
yet how to teach the process.
Bob Hoffman
sometimes was socially not very
delicate with people. He had
a very direct way of speaking and
did not have an awareness that
cultures are different. So
(16:57):
on the way, I can tell you there
were so many misunderstandings
in that first process.
There was so much to laugh about and
to be embarrassed about.
And if I can make another
point of view there, it showed something that
I also
learned
by teaching in other countries.
(17:19):
Is that
the process
function even when it was taught in bad
ways. I was teaching
everywhere in the world. Sometimes you have processes
that are,
let's say, from the professionality,
perfect, by the way, the US,
one of these countries.
(17:40):
But there are many others also where it's
done fantastic.
And there are some countries where it's not
or centers
where it is
okay, not so deep effect
on the people is
basically the same. And I thought
that is like is one of the miracles
of the Hoffman process.
(18:01):
It's not so much about the people who
are teaching it. It's really about
the people who are doing it, who are
taking it, who are going into the experiencing
and making it, and using the
facilitators
that are there to help them do that
experience.
Michael, you're saying something that I resonate with
(18:23):
too as a teacher that
it is not about the gurus upfront. It's
not
the personalities,
the dynamic,
expansive
facilitators.
It's about this students doing it, the container
that the process holds, the experiences,
the rituals
that people engage in during the week.
(18:46):
Exactly.
And this is for us teachers and for
the teachers,
so difficult
and so important to learn.
I was teaching a lot of teachers, let's
say.
And I loved
teaching
how to do the process.
This is a difficult one because
we as teachers, we are
(19:08):
facilitators
of such a deep experience
for the participant
that, of course, she or he thinks
it has something to do with the facilitators,
but it doesn't.
And the facilitator thinks it too, and that's
where the problem can be. You know that
a teacher facilitated
(19:29):
things that I'm doing this work.
And it's so it's not so easy also
as a teacher because, of course, we try
and we must do try to do the
job
the best we can. There's a
certain amount of humility
that you're talking about as an important thing
to embrace
in the role of teacher.
(19:51):
I think so. And I think also that
when you are teaching, Hoffman,
you learn that also through
the teaching. You can become
more humble.
Yeah. You touched on Bob for a minute.
You know, I wanna go back
because
it is called the Hoffman process. Bob did
(20:12):
found it, and he was
a unique being.
I think maybe it takes that kind of
uniqueness
to
bring into
existence
something like Hoffman.
I'm just wondering if you could share a
little bit about
Bob and your experiences with him, getting to
(20:32):
know him. It's been a long time since
he's been involved with the process. He's passed
many years ago. But what was he like?
Oh, Bob
Bob and I had difficult times together and
beautiful ones.
But, I was one of the teachers with
whom he had,
and who had conflicts with him.
(20:52):
Beautiful ones. I had wonderful experiences with him.
But we also
truly, we were robbing each other somehow. Like
butting heads almost.
Yeah. Almost.
What people
forget
is that Bob was really
a extraordinary being or a unique being, you
said. Yes.
(21:13):
He was that.
And
he was filled
with the necessary
passion for his Hoffman process
that it needs
to bring into the world a thing like
Hoffman. You know, it he was extreme in
his passions
for the Hoffman
process.
With all
(21:34):
the negative side, that's an most extremisms,
even if it's for a passion,
bring. But one of the most important things
for me where Bob was extraordinary,
that he channeled
the central
thing that is
powerful in Hoffman,
he channeled that. He got that boom, gifted
(21:58):
through his intuition from
in in the Hoffman
thing, from his spirit.
It was channeled. It was intuitive.
It was not thought.
It came from somewhere
much deeper.
And that's why I believe
this structure that the process
carries in itself is so powerful because it
(22:20):
has a deep truth to it. To see
him work because he was just a sensitive
person. I mean, I was his student. I
mean, I was participating.
So he was my the teacher of my
small group. Right? Then there was a first
meeting with him, and we said, hello. And
then he just told me how I was,
(22:41):
my patterns and my difficulties, and where I
was cheating, and where I was not honest.
I hadn't said anything nearly. And how accurate
was he? Totally.
He is you look and since I was
at the beginning, I was really traveling around
with him a lot because
I was able
(23:02):
to follow him in every process. That's why
I think I
am by now the most the teacher with
the most, oldness, how to say.
Years of experience.
Yes. I think there's nobody older than me.
I mean, I did the last Hoffman in
January this year.
How old are you? 72.
(23:24):
Anyway, but this thing of Hoffman being a
channel.
When we were in France, for instance, we
had this free afternoon. I took a free
afternoon because he wanted to see Carnac. Carnac
is
just like Stonehenge
in the in the UK.
Is a thing with menhirs that go in
(23:45):
lands
onto the sea.
It is a very famous,
you know, place like Stonehenge. So we went
there, and we were walking. He was standing
between these things, and then was he was
saying, I
wonder where they come from.
Put his hand on the stone.
And then he said, well, I see a
(24:05):
man. He has only some fur as a
instead of trousers.
And I asked him where they come from,
and he says it comes from that mountain,
but there's no mountain there.
Straight.
And then the guy who was with us
said, well, there used to be a mountain
there.
So part of what you're saying, Michael, is
that Bob
(24:26):
went up to these stones, put his hands
there, got a message about the history of
how they got there,
that they came from this mountain, but you
both could see clearly there was no mountain
there.
And then he even did it again and
got the same message that they came from
the mountain. And then the guy jumps in
and says, well, there was actually a mountain
(24:48):
there in the past. That had been that
had been
washed down. That had been washed away. Yeah.
And so what I want him to say
that
is that he had that
direct
thing and he used a lot of tools
in the Hoffman process that were more based
on
(25:08):
intuition that were not now
in the Hoffman process anymore. Because
intuition you cannot learn.
It's not something that you can just teach
to a teacher,
You know, you can learn it.
So these tools, and for me, unfortunately,
(25:28):
are dropped.
Doesn't matter on the process.
Process works anyway. It was just for they
were so magical
and
incredible
tools. I don't know. They still do the
Cymbal test? The Cymbal experience is still in
the process. Yeah. But it's the last thing
that is still in there. Yeah. You're saying
(25:49):
the process still works, but it's lost some
of the
intuitive
interpretation
that teachers bring
in part because as we have new teachers,
it's not something you can necessarily teach these
new teachers how to be intuitive. Exactly. It's
not it's not such an obvious thing, you
know. And I think to make
(26:10):
Kaufman
as successful as it is, it is important
that you do it in the way that
you make sure that the quality is stays
on a high level of new teachers.
In that context,
you would probably lose half the teacher because
that
you can't teach.
As I said, the most important
(26:34):
experience in the many experience of of it
was that
experience of light
that I had
prepared throughout the whole process. But then
after that,
okay, yes, I talked to Hoffman for
many
years and, I mean, I've been on the
(26:55):
professional level. I continued with Liza, Italy and
even when Liza went out after some years
and my wife came in from the beginning,
and then the 2 of us were doing
Italy, and then I got ill 10 years
ago, severely ill, so I had to be
to interrupt. I couldn't work anymore. And in
(27:15):
the meantime, like so often it happens,
I split with my wife. I sold her
my part of the Hoffman Institute and stopped
working for Hoffman because for 2 years I
couldn't do it anyway anymore. I started another
thing and that has had then to do
just
with spirituality.
And that was so
coherent
(27:36):
on my life before, on what hit me
in Hoffman,
what I tried to support
in my whole life as a teacher. And
now the last 10 years,
I'm just busy with non dual
spirituality
in
the context of a Sufi order, but of
a western Sufi order that is not connected
(27:58):
only with Islam. Not at all. How would
you define Sufism?
Well, the best
definition
that I was given is
a Sufi is somebody who feels at ease
with
paradoxes.
There's that non dual.
The Sufism,
(28:19):
as I understand it, is a very old
thing. It's and I believe it has basically
to do with people who were working with
consciousness and philosophy before philosophy even started.
One philosophical
thing is that it seems that it started
anyway still also that increase came from Greece
to the east, then to India, then from
(28:41):
India back to Turkey, and now back to
the west again. So that's also in the
story. People say Jesus was a Sufi because
that's how it looks like. That is just
people who were interested in the true mystery
of what life is, what is real, what
God is, what we are.
Why do you think
(29:03):
this nondualism
and
paradox holding
is so important
in today's world? It seems like we live
in an all or nothing kind of up
or down,
forced
dichotomy
world.
Why is that Sufi approach
of
holding the paradox so important today? I believe
(29:24):
it's like kind of white blood cells. White
blood cells. Yes. You just gave a description
of the situation on the planet.
If I say more grossly and more uglier,
like, is we have a total chaos and
we're going towards collective suicide.
Right? That is what I believe is our
planetary
situation.
(29:45):
So
our system, our human being says, woah, we
have to do something
and creates like in the sixties, in my
opinion, the hippies and the drugs.
It creates something to make a
strong change in consciousness
to try to go in a better direction.
(30:06):
That's why I believe
that now
holding
paradoxes is so important because as you say,
it's too chaotic.
Mind cannot do it anymore.
It's too much. We have to go in
another
level of being which has to do with
love and the heart and being kind and
being compassionate
(30:27):
and helping. And so in this direction, that
can help us.
And Hoffman, for me, does the first step
in that direction.
Absolutely.
Because it starts
to be more kind to yourself.
Which is a key first step? The critical
first step. Critical first step. Absolutely.
What's next for you, Michael? You live with
(30:50):
Lisa.
Your mom is also there. She's
a 102,
about to turn a 103
and healthy.
Fantastic.
What's next for you? What do your days
entail?
The days is one thing, but what does
the life look like now? Right?
And then I comes,
(31:11):
something
that a teacher told me once.
There are 3
stations in life. No?
Youth,
adulthood,
and looking good. When you're in the looking
good phase. The looking good phase is now
that to the old people, you also, you
look good. And the subtype is fuck, he's
being old now.
(31:32):
So I feel at the very beginning of
the third phase, at the beginning of a
new phase. And it's with the phase of
of getting old and at the very end,
it's dying. Right? But it's clearly,
I'm at the beginning,
but I'm not a young guy anymore. I'm
an elder now. You and I taught together
some,
(31:52):
maybe 12, 13
years ago
in White Sulphur Springs in California,
and you used to come over
from Italy to teach every now and then.
Right? Yeah. That was nice.
Yeah. That was a beautiful sight, wasn't it?
Oh, it was great. But, you know, for
the participants,
the site where they do the process
(32:14):
is the most beautiful sight.
I mean, we were once in Italy,
we we were doing it
in a place that was so incredibly hot
in summer, you could not support it. It
was an ugly hotel
in a quite nice environment,
but the inside and outside ugly. People came
back to make vacation steps
(32:36):
because, you know, in their memories, the most
beautiful.
So there you see how the mind the
feelings actually
colors all. What else should we talk about?
I don't wanna wrap unless you've gotten everything
out. I've been also for 8 years, executive
director of Hoffman International.
And explain
(32:56):
for the listeners what
role
Hoffman International plays
in the larger Hoffman Stratosphere.
Hoffman is,
if you could say, is a franchise system.
That's the nearest it is working together. It's
it's the nearest description of a system, how
(33:16):
we are is it would be a
franchise system, but not a very good functioning
franchise system. Let's say, like this. There are
some very big centers.
The biggest is,
some who do many, many processes,
many, many,
students. And they are very small. They are
middle centers, and they have realities
(33:36):
that are very different one from each other.
And all this is the administrative
core of it, or 3
executive directors
who are also
license holders. That's who are also have also
are one of these,
(33:57):
license license holders. Yes. They are elected by
the others, and they do the administrative
things. They're the ones who collect royalties.
They're the ones who
coordinate
the Kaufman International
Conferences
where
the politics of the next 2 years, etcetera,
(34:17):
are discussed.
So these conferences where everybody
from all over the world, all the Hoffman
centers
in different countries come together.
Come together, actually. Yes. Of course. That's not
so obvious. Yes. They come together and meet
physically
usually for 5, 6 days and discuss
(34:37):
what needs to be discussed.
And try to get aligned this difficult
thing with
so different
realities
to get them on a coherent
reality.
It sounds like the differences
in the cultural
and linguistic
presentations of the process
can't get too disparate
(34:58):
that on some level, we've gotta come together
as institutes
to have at least some basic alignment. And
that's what happens at these meetings.
To try to make a a alignment and
they are pretty good in it of the
quality control. You know? There's needs of quality
control. There needs a way to enforce
breaches and stuff and stuff. All that all
(35:20):
that stuff.
That has to be done. It's an organization.
And so you had one fairly recently, maybe
6 months ago or last summer?
Since I stopped working because I thought 12
years ago, I didn't work in Italy anymore.
But
in Germany, once they called me because they
needed a teaching the last moment. They asked
(35:42):
me, could you possibly come and
fill that spot? And I said, why not?
I had already stopped working in that sense
since some years. And,
then I did it, I liked it, and
then I said, Alice, when if you need
a teacher,
you can ask me.
And but I told her,
I don't wanna be in the faculty. I
(36:03):
don't wanna do anything,
you know, outside.
If I just come and teach if you
want me. So I wouldn't be able to
teach in the US, for instance, where you
need to be somehow
inside that. No. I just come and teach
the Hoffman process.
Your life and Hoffman have been so
intertwined, have they not?
They have been. Yes. Like in my second
(36:24):
part of the 3.
The second part was Hoffman.
The adulthood part,
and then the 3rd part now is the
looking good part. Well, Michael, you are looking
good.
Nevertheless.
What what's it been like to reflect on
(36:45):
Bob and your early years as a hippie
and
the role Hoffman played in your life? What's
that been like for you?
Very nice. It took me back some
memories
that were
that were not visited since quite some times.
By the way, memories. My brother was also
was a half Natisha at the beginning,
(37:07):
and then he became AIDS, had AIDS, and
was also dying during that time. So death
was already there somehow.
That was in when we, Lisa, and I
decided to do Hoffman in Italy. I remember
one of the moments was when we were
he was still teaching in a Hoffman process,
but it was the last.
He couldn't do it physically anymore, but then
(37:28):
also
mentally because AIDS attacked his brain.
And so we had to decide to do
that adventure without him. That was a very
tough decision, but
obviously the right one because he then, of
course,
died.
That was a memory that came up now
that he was there. Yes. And he was
important for me
(37:50):
at the beginning because it was through him
that I went there. It was because also
his wife already talked about the process to
me before
that, moment moment when my brother came back.
So I had already heard about it.
Well, Michael, I'm I'm grateful for this
time,
(38:11):
your
sharing so much about those early years in
your life now, and
love to Liza.
It's been a long time since I've talked
with her, but we miss her in here
in the US.
And she told me, of course, to say
hello to you,
and, of course, I forgot.
You did you did just now.
(38:40):
Thank you for listening to our podcast. My
name is Liza Ingrassi. I'm the CEO and
president of Hoffman Institute Foundation.
And I'm Razzi Grassi,
Hoffman teacher and founder of the Hoffman Institute
Foundation.
Our mission is to provide people greater access
to the wisdom and power of love. In
themselves, in each other, and in the world.
(39:01):
To find out more, please go to hompaninstitute.org.
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