April 4, 2025 • 56 mins
https://www.skool.com/equine-wisdom#:~:text=skool.com/equine%2Dwisdom
https://www.equinewisdominstitute.org/
I put the webpages first, because I know you'll want to visit them.
Amanda knows stuff! She's been through the things that make people strong and smart. She survived, she gets it and now she is sharing the light and knoweldge in her new book and at SKOOL.
Amanda understands horses, listen please you dont want to miss this.
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have with me AmandaHeld, and she's the author of a
book coming out very soon,healing in Harmony, which I
think is gonna be a superimportant book for all horse
owners and for this industry.
(00:22):
I don't like calling it anindustry for our passion in
general.
Welcome, Amanda.
Thank you so much for having me,Ishi.
Yeah, this is great.
I've been wanting to have moreconversations with you.
So I know you a little bit fromthe six o'clock Pacific time
morning meetings that you'vebeen having.
(00:42):
So why don't you tell me alittle bit about about what
you're doing, about how youstarted this morning, meeting,
about why you're writing thebook.
Just tell me about you.
Sure.
So I'll keep it at the 5,000foot level to save time, but in
essence, I started out as ahorse trainer.
Back in 2003, I got intoMustangs and I at the time had
(01:07):
learned natural horsemanship,which I thought was totally
awesome because it wasn't thebarbaric ways of treating
horses.
And so for about a decade, Iused the natural horsemanship
philosophies to rehabilitatelast Chance forces.
And through that experience, I.
(01:29):
Ended up in the equine assistedhealing space, so equine
assisted psychotherapy andlearning.
And when I started to see thesentient, I'll say of the horses
in sessions with humans, itbecame quite clear to me that
there was a reflection componentand a sentience in these horses.
(01:50):
And they were so much more thanjust animals that needed to be
dominated or trained.
And when I had this realization,I didn't wanna train anymore,
and I kind of.
Put horses on this pedestalwhere I swung from, you know,
just being your typical horsetrainer.
(02:11):
Like, I'm gonna make this horsedo what I say when I say, and
that's a good broke horse.
And to saying, oh my God, wecan't say breaking horses
anymore.
We can't put any pressure onthem.
Like they're sentient.
They like no more than people.
Mm-hmm.
And so I just kind of swung theother direction and I was afraid
to do anything too.
(02:32):
Two, or with my horses.
'cause I didn't wanna like upsetthem.
And it was interesting because Ithought that doing that would
make them like me better andwanna connect with me more.
And it actually didn't, it madethem start doing things like
biting me and pinning their earsat me.
So I feel like it was soimbalanced.
(02:53):
I just kind of becameoverpowered.
Then they wanted to startoverpowering me and I found
myself in this space of like.
I don't know.
I don't know how to be around myhorses anymore.
Like they, they wouldn't evenacknowledge me.
They didn't want anything to dowith me.
And I was over supporting themand I was just in turmoil.
(03:13):
So I decided to just you know,incorporate a lot of the things
that I learned and teach on theoutside as a human behaviorist
and the laws of nature and thelaws of balance, and just ask
the horse like.
Help me find the happy medium.
Help me find this balance.
And so through a lot ofresearch, a lot of observation,
(03:37):
a lot of time with them and alot of implementing the laws of
nature, I found a way to be withhorses that is of the deepest
connection, a deeper connectionthan I ever thought possible.
And I feel like in life when youfigure something out, so many
(03:59):
times after you figure it out,all these other people start
showing up with that similarchallenge or issue.
And so that's really what led tothe community.
I felt so alone in those firstdays because it's like you would
either get people that are like.
You need to back'em up.
You need to run'em in the roundpen, or you get other people,
(04:20):
like if you use a whip, that's aweapon and you're a terrible
person.
So I wanted to create somethingto help people and guide them
and not necessarily towards whatI think is right, but helping
people do what I did and tapinto their inner wisdom.
Tap into the inner wisdom of thehorse and develop a deeply
(04:44):
powerful and connectedrelationship based on who they
are and who their horses are asbeing.
Wow.
That's, that's incredible.
So I think a lot of people havehad a similar journey trying to
find this balance coming out ofthe dominance.
And I, I will say dominance ispredominant in natural
(05:05):
horsemanship.
And I didn't realize you were abehaviorist.
This is really interestingbecause we've touched a lot on
this on the last two episodesthat are not published yet.
So when you say you're abehaviorist, what's the
background there and howadamantly do you subscribe to
that, to today with your workwith horses?
(05:27):
It's quite interesting.
I started out in getting mydegree in equine science and
then I kind of took, when I hadthis realization about the
sentient of horses, I was reallyheavy into like the equine
assisted learning space.
And so I really left horsetraining kind of all together
(05:49):
other than rehabilitating.
Horses that were donated to thesanctuary and getting them into
our human program.
I became very, very interestedin human behavior.
And again, I believe, you know,our voids create our values,
right?
And so our struggles shape thepath that we're on.
And so in 2013, my dad, who wasmy business partner, my best
(06:14):
friend, my partner in crime, weran our boarding and training
facility together.
He.
Pass away unexpectedly, and Ilost everything.
So I lost my dad.
I lost the farm.
I had to rehome most of myhorses, and I found myself in
this space of just really,really, really poor mental
(06:36):
health.
Just shortly before that, I hadactually ended up in the
institutionalized for my mentalhealth.
I was diagnosed with a, a lot ofthings like bipolar complex,
PTSD.
And what I went through afterlosing my dad by everyone's
assumptions was going to justmake me curl up into a ball on
(06:58):
the ground and, and die and giveup.
But what happened instead is I.
A divine timing.
I was introduced to the DeMartini Institute, and that is
for personal development andbehavior.
Dr.
Di Martini does a seminar calledThe Breakthrough Experience, and
I had signed up for it.
(07:20):
Just in pure desperation I wasvery, very heavy at that time
into my victim energy and my, myvictim story, and I just really
didn't wanna be alive anymore.
And so I found this instituteand I went to this breakthrough
seminar, and it fundamentallychanged the way that I see the
(07:41):
world, my life, and everythingin it.
And in that experience, whatreally stood out to me is the
incorporations of the universalprinciples and the laws of
nature.
So after I got through theseminar, I really took a deep
dive into these laws and I foundthat there is actually a
(08:03):
framework that can explain andgive you understanding about
everything in your life.
The why we behave the way we do,why we perceive the way we do
you know, what is this wholefree will versus predestination,
you know, it was really like alook beyond, excuse me, beyond
(08:24):
frameworks and it changed mywhole life and it gave me a
life.
Better than I ever thought wouldbe available to me.
And so in doing that and doingthe work on myself first and
changing I took a lot of classeson human behavior.
I did get my master's inpsychology just because it, it
(08:47):
made sense with the path that Iwas going on.
And it was good to have anunderstanding, again, of both
sides, right?
Like the psychological side.
But also the behavior side.
And when I was in school, I tooka behavior class specifically
and it was the most amazing, myfavorite class I've ever taken
in college.
And it made me realize that ourpsychology, and this is my
(09:11):
belief, but this was theawareness I had.
I believe that when we treat ourpsychology or our psychology is
really a symptom of our biology.
And I'm gonna explain thatbecause when I say that people
typically give the same look youjust gave me like what the, what
(09:33):
the hell does that mean?
Right?
But there are things intrinsicto humans in our, our DNA, in
our systems, in our biology.
Really govern our behavior andwe like to think that we're
these sentient beings in controlof everything and, and really
(09:53):
when it boils down to it, ifsomething happens in your
perspective, that's a threat toyou, your biology will override
everything that you know, and itwill start driving your bus.
And so I had spent decades intherapy trying to heal from the
complex trauma, trying to treatall of these symptoms.
I tried medication, I triedEMDR.
(10:15):
I tried all these differenttypes of therapy and nothing
made me wanna live or evenreally made me feel better.
I think with everything I triedthat failed, I just felt a
little bit more hopeless.
But then I started to.
Study behavior, and not justbehavior, but the way that our
(10:36):
behavior works with the laws ofnature and the universal
principles.
And it just was like this, likethe skies opened and the angels
saying, and I was like, I'm ontosomething here.
Like I was able to use thesetools and kind of put a lot of
different things that I havelearned into one system.
(10:58):
I used it to totally transformeverything in my life.
And of course it's ever evolvingand I always tell my students,
like if I'm teaching you thesame thing in six months that
I'm teaching you today, I'vefailed you as a teacher.
Mm-hmm.
Because the journey is a spiraland the journey end never ends.
I, I ended up putting all ofthis, the horse piece, the human
(11:20):
behavior piece, the psychologypiece, and then I'm also I have
23 years in the military activeduty air force and also
international guard in which I'mstill serving.
And so the military piece washeavy on my heart as well,
because when I got out of themilitary in 2003, that's when my
mental health tanked.
(11:40):
It was a wild Mustang namedShelby that really saved me and
kind of started the wholeprocess.
And she's 23 years old today.
I, I still have her out in thepasture, but I knew that our
veterans needed help because Iwould know these people, and I'm
not a combat veteran, but Iwould know a lot of these people
(12:02):
and I would support a lot ofthese people.
they would come back and theyjust weren't the same.
I would watch them turn toalcohol, I'd watch their
families fall apart.
I would watch their mentalhealth fall apart.
So all these little pieces of mecame together into this
organization that I founded in2011 called Hooves.
And it stands for healing of ourVeterans Equine services.
(12:26):
And through hooves, I createdthis healing framework.
It is now delivered in a fiveday intensive format.
We've helped over 800 veteransregain their lives through
working with the laws of natureand through working with horses.
(12:46):
Wow.
That is, that is amazing.
What a journey it has.
What an incredible, A couplelifetimes, what an incredible
journey.
Yeah.
So, and, and you know, I'vetalked a little bit about my
path and there are definitelysome parallels with a lot of
things you're saying.
So the way I like to say it is,and it sounds like this with
(13:07):
you, with the the institute thatyou got the breakthrough for the
de martini thing that.
Something, let the light in.
Like we have all this grief andwe have sorrow and we have
wreckage.
And we were talking thismorning, we have chaos from
those things and somethingcracks and the light starts to
open up and then all of thesethings spring forth from that.
(13:31):
And I just think that's, I justthink that's amazing.
The, wow.
So, so that's how you got tohear.
So tell me what the book's aboutTell, I mean, I know a little
bit, but tell everybody aboutwhat the book's about.
Yeah, so the book is calledHealing and Harmony, emotional
and Spiritual Wellness forHorses and Humans.
(13:53):
And of course there's a, a storybehind it.
Again, I'll try to keep it briefand high level, but as I'm down
this rabbit hole I.
It had been, let me think, whatyear was this?
I would say 2019.
So I've been running the programfor almost a decade.
(14:13):
I am having a lot of spiritualexperience with courses.
I think that learning ismultifaceted and should come
from different areas.
So I'm always in a textbook or aeducational book.
I'm always in a researchproject.
I'm always in just going out andspending time connecting
energetically and telepathicallywith the horses.
(14:38):
And then you know, there's yourown journey, which I believe is
never ending too.
I believe the day we stopunpacking stuff is the day that
we're not here anymore.
So I have all these differentthings going on and I think that
through my own journey again,'cause I think that's probably
(14:58):
how it starts for everyone.
I was found myself in a place ofa lot of stress and pressure.
I didn't, I didn't realize it atthe time.
I was just trying to like, youknow, chop wood, carry water,
move forward, make progress inmy life.
But I, I realized in hindsightthat I really was kind of
(15:22):
lighting myself on fire to keepother people warm.
If that makes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I am a peacekeeper, right?
And so it's easier because I'mstrong because I'm independent.
Because I don't like conflict.
A lot of times it's easier tojust let everything roll off
your back.
Right?
And I'm, that was like myphilosophy, like, be like water,
just let it roll, right?
(15:43):
Some people are like, oh, theway of life is ultimate
surrender.
Just surrender to everything.
Well.
I promise you, from myexperience, that didn't work out
too well because I was denyingthe truth that there were things
happening that I wasn't okaywith.
And you know, running anonprofit is a lot of pressure.
You know, it's the world ofnonprofit is changing.
(16:07):
We have about 45 volunteers thatwork for us that we could not
afford to pay if we had to.
So I'm trying to manage thesevolunteers.
The relationship between myhusband and my daughter, he's
the stepdad, was really bad atthe time and they were always
fighting and I was playingmediator there.
Then I'm constantly cultivatingdonors and you know, when you're
(16:29):
going to cultivate somebodythat's gonna give you money, you
really have to.
Support their values and andideas.
And so I found myself just inthis ugh, space of like pure
depletion.
Can I, and can I ask you?
Yeah.
Can I ask you a little bit,there's some, some points of
real interest Yeah.
In some of the things you'vesaid.
(16:51):
So from having a personalitytype that wants to placate and
keep the peace and let thingsroll off of you to, like this
morning in the session, I, Isaid something that was the
result of a belief and youcalled me on it right away in
the most.
Gentle way, and I love it whenpeople do that.
Like I wanna challenge mybeliefs.
(17:12):
I want other people to challengetheir beliefs.
But between getting to thatpoint and to a point where
you're managing 40 volunteers,you can't manage 40 people and
have things roll off of you whenyou are directing them.
I mean, you can have some thingsroll off of you, but it's a very
different personality type.
How did you get from A to B?
(17:34):
Well, I'm about to tell you.
Okay.
It's alright.
So no, this is perfect.
That was a great question.
So all of this is going on,right?
And I have this miniature horsethat was born at our farm in,
2019.
He was born on Memorial Day.
His name is Patriot, and he wasborn with dwarfism.
Okay.
And he's, he's just a man, he'sa fighter.
(17:57):
We didn't think he was gonnalive originally.
He, he had some complicationsand he's like the comeback kid,
right?
And so he very quickly, I likebottle fed him and he was like
my baby.
And so we had this really deepspiritual connection, right?
And then one day I woke up andwent out and Pat couldn't stand.
(18:21):
He was down.
And you know, when we did gethim up, he could barely move.
He was neural, he was like fiveout of five on the neurological
scale.
Like he just was a disaster.
And so it was during CO it waslike 2020 and we took him up to
Michigan State and we couldn'tgo in because of Covid.
(18:42):
So they took him.
And they x-rayed his spine andthey came back and they said,
look, he's got a Chiari malmalformation, so that means C
one in the vertebrae is, is notformed correctly.
And he's got compression in hisneck at C six and C seven.
He needs the, like the surgerythat they do for wobblers, the
(19:02):
basket surgery and the vertebrae$10,000 of vertebrae.
And I was like, well, I would, Iwould never put this baby mini
horse through through that, youknow, it's.
That'd be cruel.
It would be cruel.
So I said, well, did you look athis feet?
Because when he would stand, hewas very under himself.
Like a founder force.
Mm-hmm.
(19:23):
Mm-hmm.
And I had already had his feetx-rayed and, and the feet didn't
show anything, but they werelike, Nope.
Like, we aren't gonna waste yourtime or money with feet x-rays.
Like his spine is jacked.
That's why he is neurological.
He can't function.
Okay.
Take him home, call the vet,make an appointment to have him
put down on Monday.
And when all of this started, Itold him, I said, listen, I
(19:47):
wanted, I don't wanna be selfishin this.
I wanna do what?
What's best for you?
So if you wanna go to heaven, ifyou wanna stop fighting,
whatever, stop eating and thenI'll know.
And I swear to you, Ishi.
Every time, whether he waslaying down or standing up.
Every time I would go in thebarn and he would see me, he
would grab a mouthful of hay andjust start violently munching on
(20:10):
it.
So I was just like so tornbecause you know, here Michigan
State says it's a spine, likeyou can't fix that.
And so I was like, well, youknow what?
I'm gonna make you comfortablethrough the weekend here, have
some ine.
I gave him some banta mean thatnight, Saturday morning he's up
like totally up on his own,blinking at me eating as soon as
(20:33):
he sees me.
And I'm like, okay, well if thiswas full-blown neurological,
that wouldn't, the bmy wouldn'thave done it.
Right?
So I did have the vet come, butinstead of putting him to sleep,
I had her X-rays whole legs andI needed to see the whole
picture.
And when it was the digital.
Radiograph and when I saw thepicture, his coffin bone was 90
(20:59):
degrees in his puff.
Wow.
So it was just like, oh my gosh.
Well, I'm not saying all thatstuff isn't wrong with his
spine, but this is a majorissue.
Whatever's at the base is gonnaaffect everything going up.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
(21:19):
So I was like, okay, we are notputting him down.
We're gonna figure this out.
One of my best friends, sheactually wrote a little excerpt
in the book Dr.
Jackie Insco, she's aveterinarian, but she also does
a lot of holistic stuff as well.
Mm-hmm.
So she's on, she does both.
And she referred me actually toan equine podiatrist.
(21:41):
I took him down to thepodiatrist and he said, you
know, I mean, I'm not hopeful,but I have some shoes that I
could try.
They're for fos.
'cause his tendons, what it wasis his tendons were contracted.
Right?
Oh, but let me back up.
So anyway, I see theradiographs, I see the 90 degree
coffin bone.
(22:02):
I call one of my mentors and shesays to me, okay, Amanda, where
are you tiptoeing?
In your life.
Yeah.
And I freaking lost it.
I became a puddle on the groundbecause I was tiptoeing around
everyone.
Like it's what I was leading my,it was my strategy to get
(22:23):
through life was tiptoeing andit totally showed up in him.
Totally.
So it was that moment, it waslike that instant moment that I
had that awareness.
It wasn't about me anymore.
It was like, if I don't startstanding up for myself, this
horse is my baby.
My soul horse is gonna die.
And it was like, you know theuniverse, I believe whenever we
(22:47):
change direction, have a newawareness, set a goal.
I believe we're always testedthree times when my first test
came, about 20 minutes afterthat phone conversation, when
one of our volunteers came upand.
I don't remember if they werewanting something like my time
or if they had an idea that theywanted, that I didn't wanna do,
(23:09):
but I was like, no.
And they were kind of like,whoa, whoa.
Did you say like, you know?
And I was like, no, I'm sorry.
I, you know, I'm not interestedin doing that right now.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And then I think you go throughthis thing when you're like a
chronic people pleaser, whereyou're like, was I just mean.
(23:29):
Just setting a simple boundaryor saying no feels like mean,
so, but then it felt kind ofgood at the same time.
And I knew, like I knew at thatpoint that it was not negotiable
and that I had to totallyrestructure my boundaries.
And I did.
And I just did.
I just started speaking my truthand there were some people that
(23:51):
flipped out and they're nolonger in my life and I just.
Yeah, bless them on their way.
No hard feelings, but, but whatspeaking my truth helped me
realize is that there were a lotof people that were in my life
that weren't reciprocal.
They were just there because Iwas a doormat and they could get
whatever they wanted.
(24:12):
And when I stopped giving themtheir way, they didn't.
You know, I became the villainin their story and they left.
But then what happened is newpeople came in and when we look
at the natural law of balance,we'll never have a loss without
a gain.
So as soon as I started gettingrid of those people, more people
came in and they were more of avibrational match for Amanda,
(24:35):
who's honest, and Amanda who hasboundaries.
And so I was doing all thisreally, really.
Challenging work, but rewardingwork.
I was making changes,implementing everything, and,
and you know, patriot didn'tjust magically heal and like a
wand was waved, but he startedto get better.
(24:55):
We hadn't seen any progress insix months and from that point
that I changed, progress wasmade daily and, and now today,
he'll be six years in May.
He lives a great, he has a greatquality of life and he free
roams our farm.
And he runs and he plays and,and he does all the things.
And he always knows when you'restanding by the treat bin, he
(25:18):
magically appears for snacks.
But as I recovered, herecovered.
So I was onto this.
Then I started getting callsfrom like friends.
So I had, I have a Magna wavepulse electromagnetic therapy
machine.
And my friend called her horsehad put its leg through the
(25:38):
barn, the metal.
And so she was just calling toask if I thought Magna Wave
could help.
And I said, well, howopen-minded are you?
Because I have a discovery thatI'd love to share, you know?
And she was like, oh, totally.
So.
I, I looked at what hadhappened.
I looked at the actions and theinactions and, and I have the
(25:59):
horse's body now kind of brokendown into reflective parts,
right?
So the back feet representthings happening in the past.
Front feet, our future, so onand so forth.
And, and when we look at likethe left side is the feminine
energy, the energy of being the,the maternal energy.
(26:19):
The right side is the masculine,the energy of doing the mental.
So I have the body broken downand I said, well, where's the
injury at?
It was the back left.
And then what's the action orinaction the horse is doing?
It's dragging.
It's.
And hoof represents disconnect.
(26:41):
So any problems in the feet area disconnection of something,
and she was dragging it.
And so I, I said this to her andthen she turned into a crying
puddle because she was like, Iknow exactly what it is, you
know, and then she ended upgoing into therapy and dealing
with her issue with thetherapist, and she.
(27:05):
Reached back out to me a couplemonths later and she was like,
not only did my horse make afull recovery, my horse is so
bonded to me now that it's likeour relationship is a, a totally
different level.
Right.
So that kept happening.
Let me recap a little bit.
Okay.
So what I'm hearing and gettingfrom this is there's a very
(27:27):
spiritual intersection between.
Being able to look at ourselvesand self-honesty and how horses
are such spiritual, sentientbeings, and how we heal from
those things and they kind ofcome with us.
(27:47):
And in an essence, that's a lotabout what the book is about.
Am am I wrong?
It's exactly what it's about.
And.
I didn't get the idea for thebook right away.
So I spent five years trying todisprove this because I first of
all was like, maybe I'm justcrazy.
(28:09):
Maybe this is all bs, you know?
But I was like, if I'm gonnaapproach this, I need to
approach it if I'm gonna bevalid.
'cause I also have an academicbackground, right?
Mm-hmm.
If I'm going to really be valid.
I want it to be balanced.
So of course, like it's veryeasy to be spiritual.
But it's one side of things.
(28:31):
So how can I bring in bothsides?
And so I have the concept, Ihave the phenomenon, I have the
evidence through all these casestudies, through my own case
study.
Now I need to figure outscientifically, what is going on
here?
Why is this a thing?
So I started, you know.
Researching traditional Chinesemedicine, meridians, chakras,
(28:56):
quantum physics.
I just went down all theserabbit holes.
You know, like I had mentionedbefore, there's like the
spiritual component, the mentalcomponent, you know, the
personal component.
So I took all of this and I'veresearched it for five years.
I've tried to disprove it infive years in hundreds of case
(29:18):
studies.
It is yet to be incongruent orincorrect.
It's interesting because it, I'mso engulfed in it.
It's my day-to-day life.
It's my truth that sometimes Idon't realize it until I start
talking about it, like onpodcasts and things like, I, I
hope that this changes the worldfor people and horses.
I think that it already has, youknow what occurs to me because
(29:42):
the concepts that you're writingthe book about were not new to
me.
When, when I met you, it's likeI've had experiences.
I, I can't even remember where Istarted doing, you know, the
metaphoric thing.
'cause I have a little bit oftraining and reiki and, and a
few other things that, that leaninto some of what's in your
book.
(30:02):
I'm just so grateful that you'vebeen able to pull all that
together and that you'researching for the scientific
side of this and that you triedto disprove it.
The intentions.
Like sometimes I know thatintention can.
Manifest and dictate whathappens just like when we want
(30:22):
to go somewhere on the horse andwe set that intention like this
is what's next, this is whatwill happen.
It's like things fall into placewith that intention, and the
more you work with intention,the less work it is.
It's just the thought.
And so I see intention.
Your, in your pathway, you know,that manifested this as well,
(30:44):
and it's like that's a microcosmof the, of the bigger thing that
you've done.
Absolutely.
And I don't know, I just, I lovehow those things turn in and of
themselves.
Absolutely.
I, you know, I believe that inand of itself really is a
system, and so when you talkabout.
(31:07):
People knowing this stuff.
I think that's what's so amazingis that I'm not, I'm not
creating something new.
I, whenever I teach, when Iteach in my healing intensives,
when I teach in my equineclinics, it's more of a
remembering Yeah.
(31:27):
Than it is a teaching.
Right.
Because this is what's.
Us all, which is why I love thebehavior because it's a system.
And I'm also a very, very heavyA DHD, and my brain works a
little bit different, like tosay neuros spicy, but it has
served me well and it has been agift because I love super deep
(31:53):
rabbit holes of quantum andanything outrageous and deep.
Mm-hmm.
But.
There are people that don't,number one, and there's people
that can't see it yet.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm not one of those people,like I have friends that just
(32:13):
are, they're like a directchannel.
And I am not like, when we gointo ceremony or meditation or
breath work, you know, peoplewill be like, oh my God, I
astral traveled, or I did this,or I have these visions, or I,
you know, I don't.
My systems don't work that way.
It's not how I'm set up.
I don't have those experiences,but I believe, like my gift is
(32:38):
to take very complex things andI need to have a system.
My brain craves systems.
I can do anything if I have asystem to do it.
And so I've taken these reallycomplex things and through
systems and pictographs andcharts, I've.
Hopefully made them simpleenough for anyone to understand,
(32:59):
you know?
And are there people that can goto a horse and have that direct
line and immediate connectionand just channel exactly what
the horse is saying and what thehorse needs?
Absolutely.
There are animal communicatorsthat do this, but this book and
the work that I do are for thepeople like me that maybe aren't
(33:21):
there yet or don't wanna bethere or can't.
Find a way to get there.
So it's just taking things andorganizing it and giving you a
step-by-step process.
And I feel like that's what I'vedone with all of the
information.
Whether it's connection workwith horses, whether it's
healing trauma, whether it'sgrowing your business.
You know, I also have a DHDentrepreneurialship, but
(33:44):
everything is in a system that Ican then pass along to help the
next person save time, effort,and energy in getting the thing
accomplished.
I think I just had an epiphany.
Cool.
Share.
Okay, so I have a, I have apodcast episode about release
work, and it's all intuitive andit's something I do to bond with
my horses.
It's, you know, a little bit ofMasterson, a little bit of
(34:05):
Cummings, a little bit of, youknow, me, a little bit of just
bladder meridian andacupressure.
But the thing is the feedbackloop in a very regulated
co-regulating, taking it down,meditative way when I'm step
into this space with them and Ijust got this flash of like, if
I overlaid your system with whatI'm doing, because during these
(34:26):
sessions they will point out onmy body what corresponds to
their body where they want me towork, and, and then we
energetically work on that placeon their body.
So if I were to take your systemand overlay it, I bet that
there'd be a reflection ofwhatever it is I need to work on
(34:50):
in the body part that they'reasking me to work on.
And somehow, without actuallyacknowledging what the thing is,
energetically, we may beaddressing that.
What do think, oh, I thinkyou're spot on.
I think you're spot on.
And, and actually that is theperfect description of my
(35:10):
intention for this book.
It's, it's meant to be a pieceof the puzzle, and it's meant
to, I'm getting really badgoosebumps.
It's like, okay, cool.
That's right.
Yes, absolutely.
And so that is, that is.
What the purpose of this bookis.
And so what it, it is, talk alittle bit more about what it
(35:34):
is.
There's some, some explanation,some frameworks.
You know, I talk about theMorphic field.
I cite some of the research andthe validating perspectives that
other well-known professionalshave used to come to these
conclusions.
So it's the first part of thebook is just kind of laying the
framework and building up theevidence.
The second part of the book is abreakdown of the main body parts
(35:58):
of the horse, so, and then whattheir spiritual root is.
And so like I can, I have my, mybook open here.
I can just give you an exampleif you'd like excerpt from the
book.
But it talks about also like thesymptoms and the positioning of
the book.
So like.
Here we have ears.
So ears symbolize the ability tolisten, communicate, and receive
(36:21):
information, both in terms ofexternal messages and internal
truths for both horses andhumans.
This area represents openness tohearing and understanding,
making it central to effectivecommunication and connection.
When issues arise in the ears,whether physical or behavioral,
they often reflect a deeperstruggle with hearing or
accepting the truth.
(36:43):
So the emotional root of theears is healing, hearing the
truth, and or feeling heard,right?
Right.
And so the ears are linked toemotional challenges such as
difficulty hearing truth,feeling ignored or struggling
with communication.
When a horse appears to be deafto commands, unresponsive, or
has I related issues and maymirror the handler's feelings of
(37:06):
being unheard or unable toaccept reality.
Similarly, humans may find ithard to accept feedback, feel
dismissed or struggle to expressthemselves clearly.
So there's the explanation ofthe body part.
Then I have some key questions,some facilitative questions that
you can sit with in order toactually create a shift.
(37:28):
So it's bringing into yourawareness, you know, what's
going on.
And so you can say, okay, yeah,I actually, have something going
on in my life right now.
Somebody's been telling mesomething, I don't wanna accept
it.
Okay, I see where I'm doingthat.
Okay.
Then you can go to the fac, thekey questions.
So the question for you wouldbe, how can I become more open
to listening and accepting thetruth, and how can I ensure that
(37:50):
my voice is heard?
Then there's a question for thehorse.
How can I help my horse feelmore heard and understood in our
interactions?
And then, the spiritual root ofthat is the Throat chak.
Yeah, that's what I, andreceptivity.
Right.
So spiritually the ears areconnected to the throat chakra,
which governs the ability tolisten, understand and express
(38:12):
truth.
Blockages in this area cancreate resistance.
To both inner guidance andexternal feedback.
Okay.
So I just wanna be the devil'sadvocate for a sec.
Like that totally resonates,makes sense with me and I, I get
it.
And the first thing that wasoccurring to me when you started
talking was of course throatchakra.
So why, why would it be the earsand not the throat?
(38:34):
Well, it could also be that,right?
But you, again, you have to lookat the action or the inaction.
Okay.
That makes sense.
Right?
Yeah.
And I explained that also, so.
You know, the action of theinaction is, is definitely a key
factor in that, right?
And so if you aren't speakingyour truth, that typically shows
(38:56):
up in your throat, in yourthyroid primarily.
But if you're not hearinglistening, but if you're not
hearing it right, you know, oraccepting it, that's when it
will show up in the ears.
So I have each of the body partsbroken down like this, and then
I have facilitative questions.
And then I also have the 65 likemost common equine illnesses or
(39:20):
injuries as well.
So, you know, colic, laminitisulcers, things like that.
And I have all of the, the kindof the same framework.
So it's the spiritual root andthen some facilitative
questions.
Can you foresee a day whenveterinarians use this book?
(39:42):
So they already are.
That's amazing.
My friend.
Yes.
So my, my friend Dr.
Jackie yes, she is always, thebook is not out yet, but she's
always texting me and she'sactually helped me through the
years kind of develop that.
So yeah, she'll be like, she'lltext me like, okay, what's the
stifle?
(40:02):
You know, and we, we text backand forth and.
Laugh at ourselves.
'cause we're like, it's alwaysso like, and there was, I had,
some stuff going on with one ofmy horses and we were texting
about it and I'm like, I hate itwhen my work is so freaking
accurate, so annoying.
But it, it can, it can be.
But you know what's moreannoying because now I'm
flashing back on a woman that Iworked with for a little bit
(40:25):
with a horse, with all of these,all of these problems with, with
their hooves and up and back tothe veterinary hospital, which
is like two hours away.
Put that horse through years oftorture.
And then it had to have it putdown.
And early on when I worked withher, I got the message, you
know, that this is about you notbeing able to deal with death.
(40:49):
And I don't know what that wouldbe.
I don't remember the exactinjury with, with the hoof.
I think it was like a growth onthe leg just above the coronary
band.
And so what I was saying is it'sgreat when.
It's great to know this stuffwhen it works and there's
receptivity, but to see it andknow it and know that that
(41:10):
person's journey is just to gothrough the suffering and
there's nothing you, you can'tget in the ears, there's just
nothing that's gonna help themsee the truth.
That's just really tragic,especially for the horse too.
Absolutely.
And I like we have a sayingaround here the lips of wisdom
(41:30):
are sealed except to the ears ofunderstanding.
Yeah.
And so I always ensure thatpeople have the ears of
understanding before I evenshare anything about what I do.
And if they don't, you know, Imean, I know that there has to
be balance in the world, and Iguess it's how I've processed.
(41:52):
Because when I really firststarted waking up to the
sensient of horses, and when Istarted to hear them I became
traumatized.
I remember I was at a, an EQUfest, a very big EQU fest.
I will not say which one, and Iwas walking through the stalls.
(42:15):
The horses were just like, help,help me, help me.
You know?
And I could like hear them andit was just like a sensory
overload.
I could, I had to like leave thebarn and I was just like
sobbing.
And I called one of my mentorsand I was like, like, why?
Why is this occurring?
Like why is this happening?
And she never gave advice.
(42:37):
'cause that's what goodfacilitators do.
They only ask questions, but shesaid, how would your feelings
change right now?
If you knew that those horseshad signed up for that mission,
right?
And I was like, well, I stilldon't like it.
But you know, if we go back tothe laws of nature, I mean, you
(42:58):
know, nature is both kind andcruel.
Both exist and both serve.
If you are willing to go thereand look at that.
That's really true.
Wow.
Those are great, greatconversations.
I'm so glad that you havewritten this book.
If we have time, I'd like to askyou a couple of more questions.
(43:20):
It's more kind of back aboutriding.
Do we have a little more time?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Great, great.
So do you believe all horsesshould be ridden and want to be
ridden?
Absolutely not.
Okay.
I don't think that any horsereally wants to be ridden.
I think that if your horse has aconnection with you and they see
(43:47):
you as part of their herd thatthey will tolerate it.
And, and this is something Igrapple with because there's
days where I'm like, I shouldnever ride another horse again
because I think it's, you know.
Like, no, it's not something ahorse would ever do if they had
the option to do it.
Right.
(44:07):
I, so, I, I dunno about that.
Sat with, well that's how Ifelt, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then I got this experiencewith these 4-year-old mustangs
that I have, you know, and I gotthem mis yearlings.
And I just spent two years doingconnection work and things like
that.
And, and now it's time to backthen.
(44:29):
When the weather warms up here.
But last year I did get them outafter, you know, it was like the
first time that we were like,okay, I'm gonna have an agenda.
We're gonna habituate you to thesaddles.
And so I got my two trusteehorses out and we POed them and
I put the saddles on them, just,you know.
(44:53):
Not even gonna cinch'em.
Right.
Put the saddles on.
Okay.
They're cool.
They don't care.
They're totally like at a onestress level.
Zero.
Okay.
I'll tighten the cinch.
Okay.
I have'em on lead ropes.
Okay.
I'll, I'll just circle them andmaybe they'll trot or buck or
get elevated.
Like it was almost like theywere in meditation the entire
(45:15):
time.
Mm-hmm.
And by day three I was, I wastacking them at liberty.
I total liberty.
And they never, they never eventrotted.
And I wasn't in an arena, Iwasn't in a round pen.
They had the ability to goanywhere in that arena and fuck,
and do all, you know, whenyou're a natural horsemanship
trainer, you gotta put'em in theround pen and run'em around and,
(45:38):
you know, blah, blah, do all thedog and pony.
And it's like, and it's reallynot necessary.
I, I, no, I haven't doneanything with these babies.
I have done nothing but work onthe relationship.
I do take them on walks.
Mm-hmm.
I do the connection work, I dothe mirroring, I do the breath
work, I do the spiral.
I ha actually have a blog on mywebsite about habitation versus
(46:02):
desensitization, and I have one.
There's pictures of me, likehula hooping, and I open an
umbrella.
I never desensitized thesehorses.
I never sacked them out.
I never, I didn't even habituate'em.
I just built a trustingrelationship with them and I can
do anything They, and they'retotally cool.
So.
I did go back on my guilt andthinking that horses didn't
(46:25):
wanna be ridden because I cantell you when I go out there now
to get other horses,'cause I'venot done anything with them in
several months.
They are trying to interceptthese other horses and shove
their faces in the halter to goout and to do this stuff.
But, but I don't think theywould be that way if I hadn't
(46:48):
focused on the connection.
Right.
Now.
That being said, I have anotherhorse that I got when I was
still an, the old time horsetrainer, and this horse, I don't
know what happened to him.
I got him as a yearling.
He is a Mustang.
He, I, I went down to do like ademonstration at this adoption
(47:10):
fair and I ended up bringing himhome and he's, he has a very low
sense of self preservation.
So if you put something on himand he doesn't like it, he will
flail.
Until whatever it is, is not onhim anymore.
And I did back in my old ways,in my old days I did saddle him
(47:32):
and I did sit on him a couple oftimes.
The first time I sat on him, helet me get on, get off, get on,
get off, get on, get off.
And then when I asked him towalk, he freaked out at the
movement of the saddle and helaunched me headfirst into the
round pin wall.
Thank God I had a helmet on.
And as I started doing thiswork, I realized, and especially
(47:56):
in the equine assisted learningspace, right, like he is a
little bit of an anxious guy,and I was so determined to try
to change that about him becausethat's what we do, right?
We have to make these horses bewhat we think that they should
be.
I realized that he just is whohe is and he doesn't, he is not
(48:17):
interested in ever being riddenand he's really not interested
in a lot of things.
And I said, I just went to himone day and I said, I honor you.
And I see that actually youbeing the way you are is serving
our program more.
You know, I got 10 other horsesout there that you could.
(48:39):
They would lay down and youcould just lay on'em, like they
don't care.
They love people.
They're connected, they're safe,they have solid attachment
styles.
He's a, he's a anxious andavoidant attachment style, I
would say, but when I let himjust be him mm-hmm.
He shifted a lot and he stillhas a little bit of that
(49:01):
edginess to him.
He is, but, but there's anacceptance, right?
That that's, that's how peopleget better too.
Totally.
There's just that acceptance.
So I gotta ask you thisquestion.
Do you think that naturalhorsemanship is short-lived and
that it's about over?
Like, are we about done withthis?
Yeah.
(49:21):
Well, I appreciate the purposethat it served because it got
people out of barbarictreatment.
It was certainly better thantying them up and doing all the
horrible things that were beingdone to them, you know,
previously.
But it's of a, it's still of adominant it's still of a
dominant and, and not givingchoice.
(49:43):
And I also think, and this mightlose me some fans, but even our
liberty work.
Yes, natural horsemanship,liberty work, it's not giving
the, the horse some like nottrue liberty, but mainstream
liberty work.
If, if I'm making you run andI'm forcing, if I'm making the
(50:03):
wrong thing hard and the rightthing easy, I'm still totally
governing you.
I'm still totally manipulatingyou it was a stepping stone.
I think sometimes when we havethese changes, like radical
change, you know, like my changewas radical and it was not
effective because I went fromthe natural horsemanship ways to
(50:25):
not wanting to do anythingthat's not effective either.
There's a pendulum that swings.
Yeah.
And then you find a balance.
Yeah.
And then, you know, and eventhat is a, in a revolving
spiral, right?
the only thing that's constantis change.
But yes, I definitely do hopethat it's coming to an end.
(50:47):
Your book and what we're talkingabout, which is what I call the
quiet revolution is going tochange everything.
The way I've characterized it isall of the information that
we've been able to gather, therelationships that we've been
able to develop with horsesthrough equine assisted learning
and equine assisted therapy thatis.
I used to call it the tippingpoint, and I've been waiting for
(51:09):
the time when this tips into,the world of horse shows, the
world of natural horsemanship,the world of a lot of old ways
that are simply not necessary.
I mean, I said to when I firstheard a Warwick Schiller
interview, NA Sean Cook, Icalled, I called them both, and
I called Warwick Schiller and Isaid, why would you go through
(51:32):
all that when you could justtalk to the horse?
And it's not quite that simple.
You know, my autistic brainoversimplified everything, but
it's about that relationship.
It's about what you're talkingabout.
And I am excited to see thenatural horsemanship go by the
wayside, and people have adeeper understanding of the
(51:52):
sentient spiritual nature ofhorse and what they're really
here to offer.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I do credit, I absolutelycredit the equine assisted
psychotherapy and learning spacehugely for this revolution
because if you look at it, whatwe're doing in that space.
(52:16):
Is, I don't wanna use the wordcapitalizing because I don't
like that.
I don't feel like it's accurate,but what we are doing is we're
employing the natural abilitiesor everything that a horse does
in an equine therapy sessionthat is their natural way of
being.
They don't turn it on and off.
(52:38):
No, they don't.
They, they don't have thecapability to turn it off.
That's just who they are and howthey are, and how they show up
in the world.
And so what that told me is thatit's never off it.
It's not.
So that means it's holds truejust as much in the training
space.
Mm-hmm.
As it does in the therapeuticspace.
Now it's up to the person ifthey wanna see it or not, right?
(53:04):
But it's always present.
It's always present.
And you can choose to align withit, recognize it, learn from it,
grow from it.
Or you can choose to ignore it.
But it's there whether you wannabelieve it or not, and sometimes
I feel like they have waited solong and been so patient with us
to see it.
(53:25):
Well, I think it's, it's anevolution.
Just like anything.
I mean, I believe that, Ibelieve, this is just my
personal belief, but that horsesare a gift to mankind who have
come alongside of us to really,I mean, horses have had a
firsthand.
Role in the evolution ofmankind.
(53:48):
It's true, right?
It's true.
Whether it's, you know, hunting,plowing, building, hauling,
fighting, you know, fighting.
Those are all the old ways.
But again, as we look atevolution, we don't need them to
do those things anymore.
So their role is changing and,you know, I don't know, I'm, I
(54:11):
mean, personally, I'm not.
Interested in the, thecompetition space Personally,
it, it has no interest.
Been there, done that.
But what's what has happened,and I believe the future role of
the horse in helping us in ourevolution is we are
disconnected.
(54:32):
We are disconnected from nature,we are disconnected from
ourselves.
We are so.
Unintentionally, well,intentionally, but
unintentionally to usbrainwashed by overstimulation
of information technology.
You know, we, we have lost touchwith who we are and how we were
(54:53):
meant to, to show up and movethrough life.
And that's what horses areshowing us now.
They're bringing us home toourself.
That is so beautifully said.
And you know, some of the, evensome of the phrases that you
chose are, are in previouspodcast episodes echoed by other
guests and that that was likesuch a beautiful, oh, I loved
(55:14):
what you just said.
I I think because that's soimportant, this might be a good
place to stop.
Yeah.
I love it.
Thank you so much for theopportunity to, to share and
chat.
No, this is wonderful.
Thank you so much, Amanda.
I am, I'm, I'm very pleased tohave had you on the show.
(55:34):
Thank you.
And if people want to join ourschool community I.
If you wanna get involved.
With the community.
It's my website is equine wisdominstitute.org, which I'm sure
you'll put in the comments, butif you go to the website, you
can join the school group fromthere.
And it's really just acommunity.
I say it's a community forpeople who have heard their
(55:55):
horses talk and they don't knowwhat the heck to do about it.
Or they've been talking to theirhorses for a long time and they
wanna share and help otherpeople who are new.
So it's really an evolvedcommunity a judgment free.
Place where you can go and youcan ask questions or you can
share your wisdom and helpelevate the consciousness of
(56:16):
horse owners.
It's beautiful.
I've en I'm enjoying thecommunity so much.
I'm so glad I found you.
Thank you for being a part ofit.
Yeah.
And thank you for theopportunity to come on your
podcast.
Yeah, no, thank you.
Thank you so much.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have with me AmandaHeld, and she's the author of a
book coming out very soon,healing in Harmony, which I
think is gonna be a superimportant book for all horse
owners and for this industry.
(00:22):
I don't like calling it anindustry for our passion in
general.
Welcome, Amanda.
Thank you so much for having me,Ishi.
Yeah, this is great.
I've been wanting to have moreconversations with you.
So I know you a little bit fromthe six o'clock Pacific time
morning meetings that you'vebeen having.
(00:42):
So why don't you tell me alittle bit about about what
you're doing, about how youstarted this morning, meeting,
about why you're writing thebook.
Just tell me about you.
Sure.
So I'll keep it at the 5,000foot level to save time, but in
essence, I started out as ahorse trainer.
Back in 2003, I got intoMustangs and I at the time had
(01:07):
learned natural horsemanship,which I thought was totally
awesome because it wasn't thebarbaric ways of treating
horses.
And so for about a decade, Iused the natural horsemanship
philosophies to rehabilitatelast Chance forces.
And through that experience, I.
(01:29):
Ended up in the equine assistedhealing space, so equine
assisted psychotherapy andlearning.
And when I started to see thesentient, I'll say of the horses
in sessions with humans, itbecame quite clear to me that
there was a reflection componentand a sentience in these horses.
(01:50):
And they were so much more thanjust animals that needed to be
dominated or trained.
And when I had this realization,I didn't wanna train anymore,
and I kind of.
Put horses on this pedestalwhere I swung from, you know,
just being your typical horsetrainer.
(02:11):
Like, I'm gonna make this horsedo what I say when I say, and
that's a good broke horse.
And to saying, oh my God, wecan't say breaking horses
anymore.
We can't put any pressure onthem.
Like they're sentient.
They like no more than people.
Mm-hmm.
And so I just kind of swung theother direction and I was afraid
to do anything too.
(02:32):
Two, or with my horses.
'cause I didn't wanna like upsetthem.
And it was interesting because Ithought that doing that would
make them like me better andwanna connect with me more.
And it actually didn't, it madethem start doing things like
biting me and pinning their earsat me.
So I feel like it was soimbalanced.
(02:53):
I just kind of becameoverpowered.
Then they wanted to startoverpowering me and I found
myself in this space of like.
I don't know.
I don't know how to be around myhorses anymore.
Like they, they wouldn't evenacknowledge me.
They didn't want anything to dowith me.
And I was over supporting themand I was just in turmoil.
(03:13):
So I decided to just you know,incorporate a lot of the things
that I learned and teach on theoutside as a human behaviorist
and the laws of nature and thelaws of balance, and just ask
the horse like.
Help me find the happy medium.
Help me find this balance.
And so through a lot ofresearch, a lot of observation,
(03:37):
a lot of time with them and alot of implementing the laws of
nature, I found a way to be withhorses that is of the deepest
connection, a deeper connectionthan I ever thought possible.
And I feel like in life when youfigure something out, so many
(03:59):
times after you figure it out,all these other people start
showing up with that similarchallenge or issue.
And so that's really what led tothe community.
I felt so alone in those firstdays because it's like you would
either get people that are like.
You need to back'em up.
You need to run'em in the roundpen, or you get other people,
(04:20):
like if you use a whip, that's aweapon and you're a terrible
person.
So I wanted to create somethingto help people and guide them
and not necessarily towards whatI think is right, but helping
people do what I did and tapinto their inner wisdom.
Tap into the inner wisdom of thehorse and develop a deeply
(04:44):
powerful and connectedrelationship based on who they
are and who their horses are asbeing.
Wow.
That's, that's incredible.
So I think a lot of people havehad a similar journey trying to
find this balance coming out ofthe dominance.
And I, I will say dominance ispredominant in natural
(05:05):
horsemanship.
And I didn't realize you were abehaviorist.
This is really interestingbecause we've touched a lot on
this on the last two episodesthat are not published yet.
So when you say you're abehaviorist, what's the
background there and howadamantly do you subscribe to
that, to today with your workwith horses?
(05:27):
It's quite interesting.
I started out in getting mydegree in equine science and
then I kind of took, when I hadthis realization about the
sentient of horses, I was reallyheavy into like the equine
assisted learning space.
And so I really left horsetraining kind of all together
(05:49):
other than rehabilitating.
Horses that were donated to thesanctuary and getting them into
our human program.
I became very, very interestedin human behavior.
And again, I believe, you know,our voids create our values,
right?
And so our struggles shape thepath that we're on.
And so in 2013, my dad, who wasmy business partner, my best
(06:14):
friend, my partner in crime, weran our boarding and training
facility together.
He.
Pass away unexpectedly, and Ilost everything.
So I lost my dad.
I lost the farm.
I had to rehome most of myhorses, and I found myself in
this space of just really,really, really poor mental
(06:36):
health.
Just shortly before that, I hadactually ended up in the
institutionalized for my mentalhealth.
I was diagnosed with a, a lot ofthings like bipolar complex,
PTSD.
And what I went through afterlosing my dad by everyone's
assumptions was going to justmake me curl up into a ball on
(06:58):
the ground and, and die and giveup.
But what happened instead is I.
A divine timing.
I was introduced to the DeMartini Institute, and that is
for personal development andbehavior.
Dr.
Di Martini does a seminar calledThe Breakthrough Experience, and
I had signed up for it.
(07:20):
Just in pure desperation I wasvery, very heavy at that time
into my victim energy and my, myvictim story, and I just really
didn't wanna be alive anymore.
And so I found this instituteand I went to this breakthrough
seminar, and it fundamentallychanged the way that I see the
(07:41):
world, my life, and everythingin it.
And in that experience, whatreally stood out to me is the
incorporations of the universalprinciples and the laws of
nature.
So after I got through theseminar, I really took a deep
dive into these laws and I foundthat there is actually a
(08:03):
framework that can explain andgive you understanding about
everything in your life.
The why we behave the way we do,why we perceive the way we do
you know, what is this wholefree will versus predestination,
you know, it was really like alook beyond, excuse me, beyond
(08:24):
frameworks and it changed mywhole life and it gave me a
life.
Better than I ever thought wouldbe available to me.
And so in doing that and doingthe work on myself first and
changing I took a lot of classeson human behavior.
I did get my master's inpsychology just because it, it
(08:47):
made sense with the path that Iwas going on.
And it was good to have anunderstanding, again, of both
sides, right?
Like the psychological side.
But also the behavior side.
And when I was in school, I tooka behavior class specifically
and it was the most amazing, myfavorite class I've ever taken
in college.
And it made me realize that ourpsychology, and this is my
(09:11):
belief, but this was theawareness I had.
I believe that when we treat ourpsychology or our psychology is
really a symptom of our biology.
And I'm gonna explain thatbecause when I say that people
typically give the same look youjust gave me like what the, what
(09:33):
the hell does that mean?
Right?
But there are things intrinsicto humans in our, our DNA, in
our systems, in our biology.
Really govern our behavior andwe like to think that we're
these sentient beings in controlof everything and, and really
(09:53):
when it boils down to it, ifsomething happens in your
perspective, that's a threat toyou, your biology will override
everything that you know, and itwill start driving your bus.
And so I had spent decades intherapy trying to heal from the
complex trauma, trying to treatall of these symptoms.
I tried medication, I triedEMDR.
(10:15):
I tried all these differenttypes of therapy and nothing
made me wanna live or evenreally made me feel better.
I think with everything I triedthat failed, I just felt a
little bit more hopeless.
But then I started to.
Study behavior, and not justbehavior, but the way that our
(10:36):
behavior works with the laws ofnature and the universal
principles.
And it just was like this, likethe skies opened and the angels
saying, and I was like, I'm ontosomething here.
Like I was able to use thesetools and kind of put a lot of
different things that I havelearned into one system.
(10:58):
I used it to totally transformeverything in my life.
And of course it's ever evolvingand I always tell my students,
like if I'm teaching you thesame thing in six months that
I'm teaching you today, I'vefailed you as a teacher.
Mm-hmm.
Because the journey is a spiraland the journey end never ends.
I, I ended up putting all ofthis, the horse piece, the human
(11:20):
behavior piece, the psychologypiece, and then I'm also I have
23 years in the military activeduty air force and also
international guard in which I'mstill serving.
And so the military piece washeavy on my heart as well,
because when I got out of themilitary in 2003, that's when my
mental health tanked.
(11:40):
It was a wild Mustang namedShelby that really saved me and
kind of started the wholeprocess.
And she's 23 years old today.
I, I still have her out in thepasture, but I knew that our
veterans needed help because Iwould know these people, and I'm
not a combat veteran, but Iwould know a lot of these people
(12:02):
and I would support a lot ofthese people.
they would come back and theyjust weren't the same.
I would watch them turn toalcohol, I'd watch their
families fall apart.
I would watch their mentalhealth fall apart.
So all these little pieces of mecame together into this
organization that I founded in2011 called Hooves.
And it stands for healing of ourVeterans Equine services.
(12:26):
And through hooves, I createdthis healing framework.
It is now delivered in a fiveday intensive format.
We've helped over 800 veteransregain their lives through
working with the laws of natureand through working with horses.
(12:46):
Wow.
That is, that is amazing.
What a journey it has.
What an incredible, A couplelifetimes, what an incredible
journey.
Yeah.
So, and, and you know, I'vetalked a little bit about my
path and there are definitelysome parallels with a lot of
things you're saying.
So the way I like to say it is,and it sounds like this with
(13:07):
you, with the the institute thatyou got the breakthrough for the
de martini thing that.
Something, let the light in.
Like we have all this grief andwe have sorrow and we have
wreckage.
And we were talking thismorning, we have chaos from
those things and somethingcracks and the light starts to
open up and then all of thesethings spring forth from that.
(13:31):
And I just think that's, I justthink that's amazing.
The, wow.
So, so that's how you got tohear.
So tell me what the book's aboutTell, I mean, I know a little
bit, but tell everybody aboutwhat the book's about.
Yeah, so the book is calledHealing and Harmony, emotional
and Spiritual Wellness forHorses and Humans.
(13:53):
And of course there's a, a storybehind it.
Again, I'll try to keep it briefand high level, but as I'm down
this rabbit hole I.
It had been, let me think, whatyear was this?
I would say 2019.
So I've been running the programfor almost a decade.
(14:13):
I am having a lot of spiritualexperience with courses.
I think that learning ismultifaceted and should come
from different areas.
So I'm always in a textbook or aeducational book.
I'm always in a researchproject.
I'm always in just going out andspending time connecting
energetically and telepathicallywith the horses.
(14:38):
And then you know, there's yourown journey, which I believe is
never ending too.
I believe the day we stopunpacking stuff is the day that
we're not here anymore.
So I have all these differentthings going on and I think that
through my own journey again,'cause I think that's probably
(14:58):
how it starts for everyone.
I was found myself in a place ofa lot of stress and pressure.
I didn't, I didn't realize it atthe time.
I was just trying to like, youknow, chop wood, carry water,
move forward, make progress inmy life.
But I, I realized in hindsightthat I really was kind of
(15:22):
lighting myself on fire to keepother people warm.
If that makes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I am a peacekeeper, right?
And so it's easier because I'mstrong because I'm independent.
Because I don't like conflict.
A lot of times it's easier tojust let everything roll off
your back.
Right?
And I'm, that was like myphilosophy, like, be like water,
just let it roll, right?
(15:43):
Some people are like, oh, theway of life is ultimate
surrender.
Just surrender to everything.
Well.
I promise you, from myexperience, that didn't work out
too well because I was denyingthe truth that there were things
happening that I wasn't okaywith.
And you know, running anonprofit is a lot of pressure.
You know, it's the world ofnonprofit is changing.
(16:07):
We have about 45 volunteers thatwork for us that we could not
afford to pay if we had to.
So I'm trying to manage thesevolunteers.
The relationship between myhusband and my daughter, he's
the stepdad, was really bad atthe time and they were always
fighting and I was playingmediator there.
Then I'm constantly cultivatingdonors and you know, when you're
(16:29):
going to cultivate somebodythat's gonna give you money, you
really have to.
Support their values and andideas.
And so I found myself just inthis ugh, space of like pure
depletion.
Can I, and can I ask you?
Yeah.
Can I ask you a little bit,there's some, some points of
real interest Yeah.
In some of the things you'vesaid.
(16:51):
So from having a personalitytype that wants to placate and
keep the peace and let thingsroll off of you to, like this
morning in the session, I, Isaid something that was the
result of a belief and youcalled me on it right away in
the most.
Gentle way, and I love it whenpeople do that.
Like I wanna challenge mybeliefs.
(17:12):
I want other people to challengetheir beliefs.
But between getting to thatpoint and to a point where
you're managing 40 volunteers,you can't manage 40 people and
have things roll off of you whenyou are directing them.
I mean, you can have some thingsroll off of you, but it's a very
different personality type.
How did you get from A to B?
(17:34):
Well, I'm about to tell you.
Okay.
It's alright.
So no, this is perfect.
That was a great question.
So all of this is going on,right?
And I have this miniature horsethat was born at our farm in,
2019.
He was born on Memorial Day.
His name is Patriot, and he wasborn with dwarfism.
Okay.
And he's, he's just a man, he'sa fighter.
(17:57):
We didn't think he was gonnalive originally.
He, he had some complicationsand he's like the comeback kid,
right?
And so he very quickly, I likebottle fed him and he was like
my baby.
And so we had this really deepspiritual connection, right?
And then one day I woke up andwent out and Pat couldn't stand.
(18:21):
He was down.
And you know, when we did gethim up, he could barely move.
He was neural, he was like fiveout of five on the neurological
scale.
Like he just was a disaster.
And so it was during CO it waslike 2020 and we took him up to
Michigan State and we couldn'tgo in because of Covid.
(18:42):
So they took him.
And they x-rayed his spine andthey came back and they said,
look, he's got a Chiari malmalformation, so that means C
one in the vertebrae is, is notformed correctly.
And he's got compression in hisneck at C six and C seven.
He needs the, like the surgerythat they do for wobblers, the
(19:02):
basket surgery and the vertebrae$10,000 of vertebrae.
And I was like, well, I would, Iwould never put this baby mini
horse through through that, youknow, it's.
That'd be cruel.
It would be cruel.
So I said, well, did you look athis feet?
Because when he would stand, hewas very under himself.
Like a founder force.
Mm-hmm.
(19:23):
Mm-hmm.
And I had already had his feetx-rayed and, and the feet didn't
show anything, but they werelike, Nope.
Like, we aren't gonna waste yourtime or money with feet x-rays.
Like his spine is jacked.
That's why he is neurological.
He can't function.
Okay.
Take him home, call the vet,make an appointment to have him
put down on Monday.
And when all of this started, Itold him, I said, listen, I
(19:47):
wanted, I don't wanna be selfishin this.
I wanna do what?
What's best for you?
So if you wanna go to heaven, ifyou wanna stop fighting,
whatever, stop eating and thenI'll know.
And I swear to you, Ishi.
Every time, whether he waslaying down or standing up.
Every time I would go in thebarn and he would see me, he
would grab a mouthful of hay andjust start violently munching on
(20:10):
it.
So I was just like so tornbecause you know, here Michigan
State says it's a spine, likeyou can't fix that.
And so I was like, well, youknow what?
I'm gonna make you comfortablethrough the weekend here, have
some ine.
I gave him some banta mean thatnight, Saturday morning he's up
like totally up on his own,blinking at me eating as soon as
(20:33):
he sees me.
And I'm like, okay, well if thiswas full-blown neurological,
that wouldn't, the bmy wouldn'thave done it.
Right?
So I did have the vet come, butinstead of putting him to sleep,
I had her X-rays whole legs andI needed to see the whole
picture.
And when it was the digital.
Radiograph and when I saw thepicture, his coffin bone was 90
(20:59):
degrees in his puff.
Wow.
So it was just like, oh my gosh.
Well, I'm not saying all thatstuff isn't wrong with his
spine, but this is a majorissue.
Whatever's at the base is gonnaaffect everything going up.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
(21:19):
So I was like, okay, we are notputting him down.
We're gonna figure this out.
One of my best friends, sheactually wrote a little excerpt
in the book Dr.
Jackie Insco, she's aveterinarian, but she also does
a lot of holistic stuff as well.
Mm-hmm.
So she's on, she does both.
And she referred me actually toan equine podiatrist.
(21:41):
I took him down to thepodiatrist and he said, you
know, I mean, I'm not hopeful,but I have some shoes that I
could try.
They're for fos.
'cause his tendons, what it wasis his tendons were contracted.
Right?
Oh, but let me back up.
So anyway, I see theradiographs, I see the 90 degree
coffin bone.
(22:02):
I call one of my mentors and shesays to me, okay, Amanda, where
are you tiptoeing?
In your life.
Yeah.
And I freaking lost it.
I became a puddle on the groundbecause I was tiptoeing around
everyone.
Like it's what I was leading my,it was my strategy to get
(22:23):
through life was tiptoeing andit totally showed up in him.
Totally.
So it was that moment, it waslike that instant moment that I
had that awareness.
It wasn't about me anymore.
It was like, if I don't startstanding up for myself, this
horse is my baby.
My soul horse is gonna die.
And it was like, you know theuniverse, I believe whenever we
(22:47):
change direction, have a newawareness, set a goal.
I believe we're always testedthree times when my first test
came, about 20 minutes afterthat phone conversation, when
one of our volunteers came upand.
I don't remember if they werewanting something like my time
or if they had an idea that theywanted, that I didn't wanna do,
(23:09):
but I was like, no.
And they were kind of like,whoa, whoa.
Did you say like, you know?
And I was like, no, I'm sorry.
I, you know, I'm not interestedin doing that right now.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
And then I think you go throughthis thing when you're like a
chronic people pleaser, whereyou're like, was I just mean.
(23:29):
Just setting a simple boundaryor saying no feels like mean,
so, but then it felt kind ofgood at the same time.
And I knew, like I knew at thatpoint that it was not negotiable
and that I had to totallyrestructure my boundaries.
And I did.
And I just did.
I just started speaking my truthand there were some people that
(23:51):
flipped out and they're nolonger in my life and I just.
Yeah, bless them on their way.
No hard feelings, but, but whatspeaking my truth helped me
realize is that there were a lotof people that were in my life
that weren't reciprocal.
They were just there because Iwas a doormat and they could get
whatever they wanted.
(24:12):
And when I stopped giving themtheir way, they didn't.
You know, I became the villainin their story and they left.
But then what happened is newpeople came in and when we look
at the natural law of balance,we'll never have a loss without
a gain.
So as soon as I started gettingrid of those people, more people
came in and they were more of avibrational match for Amanda,
(24:35):
who's honest, and Amanda who hasboundaries.
And so I was doing all thisreally, really.
Challenging work, but rewardingwork.
I was making changes,implementing everything, and,
and you know, patriot didn'tjust magically heal and like a
wand was waved, but he startedto get better.
(24:55):
We hadn't seen any progress insix months and from that point
that I changed, progress wasmade daily and, and now today,
he'll be six years in May.
He lives a great, he has a greatquality of life and he free
roams our farm.
And he runs and he plays and,and he does all the things.
And he always knows when you'restanding by the treat bin, he
(25:18):
magically appears for snacks.
But as I recovered, herecovered.
So I was onto this.
Then I started getting callsfrom like friends.
So I had, I have a Magna wavepulse electromagnetic therapy
machine.
And my friend called her horsehad put its leg through the
(25:38):
barn, the metal.
And so she was just calling toask if I thought Magna Wave
could help.
And I said, well, howopen-minded are you?
Because I have a discovery thatI'd love to share, you know?
And she was like, oh, totally.
So.
I, I looked at what hadhappened.
I looked at the actions and theinactions and, and I have the
(25:59):
horse's body now kind of brokendown into reflective parts,
right?
So the back feet representthings happening in the past.
Front feet, our future, so onand so forth.
And, and when we look at likethe left side is the feminine
energy, the energy of being the,the maternal energy.
(26:19):
The right side is the masculine,the energy of doing the mental.
So I have the body broken downand I said, well, where's the
injury at?
It was the back left.
And then what's the action orinaction the horse is doing?
It's dragging.
It's.
And hoof represents disconnect.
(26:41):
So any problems in the feet area disconnection of something,
and she was dragging it.
And so I, I said this to her andthen she turned into a crying
puddle because she was like, Iknow exactly what it is, you
know, and then she ended upgoing into therapy and dealing
with her issue with thetherapist, and she.
(27:05):
Reached back out to me a couplemonths later and she was like,
not only did my horse make afull recovery, my horse is so
bonded to me now that it's likeour relationship is a, a totally
different level.
Right.
So that kept happening.
Let me recap a little bit.
Okay.
So what I'm hearing and gettingfrom this is there's a very
(27:27):
spiritual intersection between.
Being able to look at ourselvesand self-honesty and how horses
are such spiritual, sentientbeings, and how we heal from
those things and they kind ofcome with us.
(27:47):
And in an essence, that's a lotabout what the book is about.
Am am I wrong?
It's exactly what it's about.
And.
I didn't get the idea for thebook right away.
So I spent five years trying todisprove this because I first of
all was like, maybe I'm justcrazy.
(28:09):
Maybe this is all bs, you know?
But I was like, if I'm gonnaapproach this, I need to
approach it if I'm gonna bevalid.
'cause I also have an academicbackground, right?
Mm-hmm.
If I'm going to really be valid.
I want it to be balanced.
So of course, like it's veryeasy to be spiritual.
But it's one side of things.
(28:31):
So how can I bring in bothsides?
And so I have the concept, Ihave the phenomenon, I have the
evidence through all these casestudies, through my own case
study.
Now I need to figure outscientifically, what is going on
here?
Why is this a thing?
So I started, you know.
Researching traditional Chinesemedicine, meridians, chakras,
(28:56):
quantum physics.
I just went down all theserabbit holes.
You know, like I had mentionedbefore, there's like the
spiritual component, the mentalcomponent, you know, the
personal component.
So I took all of this and I'veresearched it for five years.
I've tried to disprove it infive years in hundreds of case
(29:18):
studies.
It is yet to be incongruent orincorrect.
It's interesting because it, I'mso engulfed in it.
It's my day-to-day life.
It's my truth that sometimes Idon't realize it until I start
talking about it, like onpodcasts and things like, I, I
hope that this changes the worldfor people and horses.
I think that it already has, youknow what occurs to me because
(29:42):
the concepts that you're writingthe book about were not new to
me.
When, when I met you, it's likeI've had experiences.
I, I can't even remember where Istarted doing, you know, the
metaphoric thing.
'cause I have a little bit oftraining and reiki and, and a
few other things that, that leaninto some of what's in your
book.
(30:02):
I'm just so grateful that you'vebeen able to pull all that
together and that you'researching for the scientific
side of this and that you triedto disprove it.
The intentions.
Like sometimes I know thatintention can.
Manifest and dictate whathappens just like when we want
(30:22):
to go somewhere on the horse andwe set that intention like this
is what's next, this is whatwill happen.
It's like things fall into placewith that intention, and the
more you work with intention,the less work it is.
It's just the thought.
And so I see intention.
Your, in your pathway, you know,that manifested this as well,
(30:44):
and it's like that's a microcosmof the, of the bigger thing that
you've done.
Absolutely.
And I don't know, I just, I lovehow those things turn in and of
themselves.
Absolutely.
I, you know, I believe that inand of itself really is a
system, and so when you talkabout.
(31:07):
People knowing this stuff.
I think that's what's so amazingis that I'm not, I'm not
creating something new.
I, whenever I teach, when Iteach in my healing intensives,
when I teach in my equineclinics, it's more of a
remembering Yeah.
(31:27):
Than it is a teaching.
Right.
Because this is what's.
Us all, which is why I love thebehavior because it's a system.
And I'm also a very, very heavyA DHD, and my brain works a
little bit different, like tosay neuros spicy, but it has
served me well and it has been agift because I love super deep
(31:53):
rabbit holes of quantum andanything outrageous and deep.
Mm-hmm.
But.
There are people that don't,number one, and there's people
that can't see it yet.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm not one of those people,like I have friends that just
(32:13):
are, they're like a directchannel.
And I am not like, when we gointo ceremony or meditation or
breath work, you know, peoplewill be like, oh my God, I
astral traveled, or I did this,or I have these visions, or I,
you know, I don't.
My systems don't work that way.
It's not how I'm set up.
I don't have those experiences,but I believe, like my gift is
(32:38):
to take very complex things andI need to have a system.
My brain craves systems.
I can do anything if I have asystem to do it.
And so I've taken these reallycomplex things and through
systems and pictographs andcharts, I've.
Hopefully made them simpleenough for anyone to understand,
(32:59):
you know?
And are there people that can goto a horse and have that direct
line and immediate connectionand just channel exactly what
the horse is saying and what thehorse needs?
Absolutely.
There are animal communicatorsthat do this, but this book and
the work that I do are for thepeople like me that maybe aren't
(33:21):
there yet or don't wanna bethere or can't.
Find a way to get there.
So it's just taking things andorganizing it and giving you a
step-by-step process.
And I feel like that's what I'vedone with all of the
information.
Whether it's connection workwith horses, whether it's
healing trauma, whether it'sgrowing your business.
You know, I also have a DHDentrepreneurialship, but
(33:44):
everything is in a system that Ican then pass along to help the
next person save time, effort,and energy in getting the thing
accomplished.
I think I just had an epiphany.
Cool.
Share.
Okay, so I have a, I have apodcast episode about release
work, and it's all intuitive andit's something I do to bond with
my horses.
It's, you know, a little bit ofMasterson, a little bit of
(34:05):
Cummings, a little bit of, youknow, me, a little bit of just
bladder meridian andacupressure.
But the thing is the feedbackloop in a very regulated
co-regulating, taking it down,meditative way when I'm step
into this space with them and Ijust got this flash of like, if
I overlaid your system with whatI'm doing, because during these
(34:26):
sessions they will point out onmy body what corresponds to
their body where they want me towork, and, and then we
energetically work on that placeon their body.
So if I were to take your systemand overlay it, I bet that
there'd be a reflection ofwhatever it is I need to work on
(34:50):
in the body part that they'reasking me to work on.
And somehow, without actuallyacknowledging what the thing is,
energetically, we may beaddressing that.
What do think, oh, I thinkyou're spot on.
I think you're spot on.
And, and actually that is theperfect description of my
(35:10):
intention for this book.
It's, it's meant to be a pieceof the puzzle, and it's meant
to, I'm getting really badgoosebumps.
It's like, okay, cool.
That's right.
Yes, absolutely.
And so that is, that is.
What the purpose of this bookis.
And so what it, it is, talk alittle bit more about what it
(35:34):
is.
There's some, some explanation,some frameworks.
You know, I talk about theMorphic field.
I cite some of the research andthe validating perspectives that
other well-known professionalshave used to come to these
conclusions.
So it's the first part of thebook is just kind of laying the
framework and building up theevidence.
The second part of the book is abreakdown of the main body parts
(35:58):
of the horse, so, and then whattheir spiritual root is.
And so like I can, I have my, mybook open here.
I can just give you an exampleif you'd like excerpt from the
book.
But it talks about also like thesymptoms and the positioning of
the book.
So like.
Here we have ears.
So ears symbolize the ability tolisten, communicate, and receive
(36:21):
information, both in terms ofexternal messages and internal
truths for both horses andhumans.
This area represents openness tohearing and understanding,
making it central to effectivecommunication and connection.
When issues arise in the ears,whether physical or behavioral,
they often reflect a deeperstruggle with hearing or
accepting the truth.
(36:43):
So the emotional root of theears is healing, hearing the
truth, and or feeling heard,right?
Right.
And so the ears are linked toemotional challenges such as
difficulty hearing truth,feeling ignored or struggling
with communication.
When a horse appears to be deafto commands, unresponsive, or
has I related issues and maymirror the handler's feelings of
(37:06):
being unheard or unable toaccept reality.
Similarly, humans may find ithard to accept feedback, feel
dismissed or struggle to expressthemselves clearly.
So there's the explanation ofthe body part.
Then I have some key questions,some facilitative questions that
you can sit with in order toactually create a shift.
(37:28):
So it's bringing into yourawareness, you know, what's
going on.
And so you can say, okay, yeah,I actually, have something going
on in my life right now.
Somebody's been telling mesomething, I don't wanna accept
it.
Okay, I see where I'm doingthat.
Okay.
Then you can go to the fac, thekey questions.
So the question for you wouldbe, how can I become more open
to listening and accepting thetruth, and how can I ensure that
(37:50):
my voice is heard?
Then there's a question for thehorse.
How can I help my horse feelmore heard and understood in our
interactions?
And then, the spiritual root ofthat is the Throat chak.
Yeah, that's what I, andreceptivity.
Right.
So spiritually the ears areconnected to the throat chakra,
which governs the ability tolisten, understand and express
(38:12):
truth.
Blockages in this area cancreate resistance.
To both inner guidance andexternal feedback.
Okay.
So I just wanna be the devil'sadvocate for a sec.
Like that totally resonates,makes sense with me and I, I get
it.
And the first thing that wasoccurring to me when you started
talking was of course throatchakra.
So why, why would it be the earsand not the throat?
(38:34):
Well, it could also be that,right?
But you, again, you have to lookat the action or the inaction.
Okay.
That makes sense.
Right?
Yeah.
And I explained that also, so.
You know, the action of theinaction is, is definitely a key
factor in that, right?
And so if you aren't speakingyour truth, that typically shows
(38:56):
up in your throat, in yourthyroid primarily.
But if you're not hearinglistening, but if you're not
hearing it right, you know, oraccepting it, that's when it
will show up in the ears.
So I have each of the body partsbroken down like this, and then
I have facilitative questions.
And then I also have the 65 likemost common equine illnesses or
(39:20):
injuries as well.
So, you know, colic, laminitisulcers, things like that.
And I have all of the, the kindof the same framework.
So it's the spiritual root andthen some facilitative
questions.
Can you foresee a day whenveterinarians use this book?
(39:42):
So they already are.
That's amazing.
My friend.
Yes.
So my, my friend Dr.
Jackie yes, she is always, thebook is not out yet, but she's
always texting me and she'sactually helped me through the
years kind of develop that.
So yeah, she'll be like, she'lltext me like, okay, what's the
stifle?
(40:02):
You know, and we, we text backand forth and.
Laugh at ourselves.
'cause we're like, it's alwaysso like, and there was, I had,
some stuff going on with one ofmy horses and we were texting
about it and I'm like, I hate itwhen my work is so freaking
accurate, so annoying.
But it, it can, it can be.
But you know what's moreannoying because now I'm
flashing back on a woman that Iworked with for a little bit
(40:25):
with a horse, with all of these,all of these problems with, with
their hooves and up and back tothe veterinary hospital, which
is like two hours away.
Put that horse through years oftorture.
And then it had to have it putdown.
And early on when I worked withher, I got the message, you
know, that this is about you notbeing able to deal with death.
(40:49):
And I don't know what that wouldbe.
I don't remember the exactinjury with, with the hoof.
I think it was like a growth onthe leg just above the coronary
band.
And so what I was saying is it'sgreat when.
It's great to know this stuffwhen it works and there's
receptivity, but to see it andknow it and know that that
(41:10):
person's journey is just to gothrough the suffering and
there's nothing you, you can'tget in the ears, there's just
nothing that's gonna help themsee the truth.
That's just really tragic,especially for the horse too.
Absolutely.
And I like we have a sayingaround here the lips of wisdom
(41:30):
are sealed except to the ears ofunderstanding.
Yeah.
And so I always ensure thatpeople have the ears of
understanding before I evenshare anything about what I do.
And if they don't, you know, Imean, I know that there has to
be balance in the world, and Iguess it's how I've processed.
(41:52):
Because when I really firststarted waking up to the
sensient of horses, and when Istarted to hear them I became
traumatized.
I remember I was at a, an EQUfest, a very big EQU fest.
I will not say which one, and Iwas walking through the stalls.
(42:15):
The horses were just like, help,help me, help me.
You know?
And I could like hear them andit was just like a sensory
overload.
I could, I had to like leave thebarn and I was just like
sobbing.
And I called one of my mentorsand I was like, like, why?
Why is this occurring?
Like why is this happening?
And she never gave advice.
(42:37):
'cause that's what goodfacilitators do.
They only ask questions, but shesaid, how would your feelings
change right now?
If you knew that those horseshad signed up for that mission,
right?
And I was like, well, I stilldon't like it.
But you know, if we go back tothe laws of nature, I mean, you
(42:58):
know, nature is both kind andcruel.
Both exist and both serve.
If you are willing to go thereand look at that.
That's really true.
Wow.
Those are great, greatconversations.
I'm so glad that you havewritten this book.
If we have time, I'd like to askyou a couple of more questions.
(43:20):
It's more kind of back aboutriding.
Do we have a little more time?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Great, great.
So do you believe all horsesshould be ridden and want to be
ridden?
Absolutely not.
Okay.
I don't think that any horsereally wants to be ridden.
I think that if your horse has aconnection with you and they see
(43:47):
you as part of their herd thatthey will tolerate it.
And, and this is something Igrapple with because there's
days where I'm like, I shouldnever ride another horse again
because I think it's, you know.
Like, no, it's not something ahorse would ever do if they had
the option to do it.
Right.
(44:07):
I, so, I, I dunno about that.
Sat with, well that's how Ifelt, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then I got this experiencewith these 4-year-old mustangs
that I have, you know, and I gotthem mis yearlings.
And I just spent two years doingconnection work and things like
that.
And, and now it's time to backthen.
(44:29):
When the weather warms up here.
But last year I did get them outafter, you know, it was like the
first time that we were like,okay, I'm gonna have an agenda.
We're gonna habituate you to thesaddles.
And so I got my two trusteehorses out and we POed them and
I put the saddles on them, just,you know.
(44:53):
Not even gonna cinch'em.
Right.
Put the saddles on.
Okay.
They're cool.
They don't care.
They're totally like at a onestress level.
Zero.
Okay.
I'll tighten the cinch.
Okay.
I have'em on lead ropes.
Okay.
I'll, I'll just circle them andmaybe they'll trot or buck or
get elevated.
Like it was almost like theywere in meditation the entire
(45:15):
time.
Mm-hmm.
And by day three I was, I wastacking them at liberty.
I total liberty.
And they never, they never eventrotted.
And I wasn't in an arena, Iwasn't in a round pen.
They had the ability to goanywhere in that arena and fuck,
and do all, you know, whenyou're a natural horsemanship
trainer, you gotta put'em in theround pen and run'em around and,
(45:38):
you know, blah, blah, do all thedog and pony.
And it's like, and it's reallynot necessary.
I, I, no, I haven't doneanything with these babies.
I have done nothing but work onthe relationship.
I do take them on walks.
Mm-hmm.
I do the connection work, I dothe mirroring, I do the breath
work, I do the spiral.
I ha actually have a blog on mywebsite about habitation versus
(46:02):
desensitization, and I have one.
There's pictures of me, likehula hooping, and I open an
umbrella.
I never desensitized thesehorses.
I never sacked them out.
I never, I didn't even habituate'em.
I just built a trustingrelationship with them and I can
do anything They, and they'retotally cool.
So.
I did go back on my guilt andthinking that horses didn't
(46:25):
wanna be ridden because I cantell you when I go out there now
to get other horses,'cause I'venot done anything with them in
several months.
They are trying to interceptthese other horses and shove
their faces in the halter to goout and to do this stuff.
But, but I don't think theywould be that way if I hadn't
(46:48):
focused on the connection.
Right.
Now.
That being said, I have anotherhorse that I got when I was
still an, the old time horsetrainer, and this horse, I don't
know what happened to him.
I got him as a yearling.
He is a Mustang.
He, I, I went down to do like ademonstration at this adoption
(47:10):
fair and I ended up bringing himhome and he's, he has a very low
sense of self preservation.
So if you put something on himand he doesn't like it, he will
flail.
Until whatever it is, is not onhim anymore.
And I did back in my old ways,in my old days I did saddle him
(47:32):
and I did sit on him a couple oftimes.
The first time I sat on him, helet me get on, get off, get on,
get off, get on, get off.
And then when I asked him towalk, he freaked out at the
movement of the saddle and helaunched me headfirst into the
round pin wall.
Thank God I had a helmet on.
And as I started doing thiswork, I realized, and especially
(47:56):
in the equine assisted learningspace, right, like he is a
little bit of an anxious guy,and I was so determined to try
to change that about him becausethat's what we do, right?
We have to make these horses bewhat we think that they should
be.
I realized that he just is whohe is and he doesn't, he is not
(48:17):
interested in ever being riddenand he's really not interested
in a lot of things.
And I said, I just went to himone day and I said, I honor you.
And I see that actually youbeing the way you are is serving
our program more.
You know, I got 10 other horsesout there that you could.
(48:39):
They would lay down and youcould just lay on'em, like they
don't care.
They love people.
They're connected, they're safe,they have solid attachment
styles.
He's a, he's a anxious andavoidant attachment style, I
would say, but when I let himjust be him mm-hmm.
He shifted a lot and he stillhas a little bit of that
(49:01):
edginess to him.
He is, but, but there's anacceptance, right?
That that's, that's how peopleget better too.
Totally.
There's just that acceptance.
So I gotta ask you thisquestion.
Do you think that naturalhorsemanship is short-lived and
that it's about over?
Like, are we about done withthis?
Yeah.
(49:21):
Well, I appreciate the purposethat it served because it got
people out of barbarictreatment.
It was certainly better thantying them up and doing all the
horrible things that were beingdone to them, you know,
previously.
But it's of a, it's still of adominant it's still of a
dominant and, and not givingchoice.
(49:43):
And I also think, and this mightlose me some fans, but even our
liberty work.
Yes, natural horsemanship,liberty work, it's not giving
the, the horse some like nottrue liberty, but mainstream
liberty work.
If, if I'm making you run andI'm forcing, if I'm making the
(50:03):
wrong thing hard and the rightthing easy, I'm still totally
governing you.
I'm still totally manipulatingyou it was a stepping stone.
I think sometimes when we havethese changes, like radical
change, you know, like my changewas radical and it was not
effective because I went fromthe natural horsemanship ways to
(50:25):
not wanting to do anythingthat's not effective either.
There's a pendulum that swings.
Yeah.
And then you find a balance.
Yeah.
And then, you know, and eventhat is a, in a revolving
spiral, right?
the only thing that's constantis change.
But yes, I definitely do hopethat it's coming to an end.
(50:47):
Your book and what we're talkingabout, which is what I call the
quiet revolution is going tochange everything.
The way I've characterized it isall of the information that
we've been able to gather, therelationships that we've been
able to develop with horsesthrough equine assisted learning
and equine assisted therapy thatis.
I used to call it the tippingpoint, and I've been waiting for
(51:09):
the time when this tips into,the world of horse shows, the
world of natural horsemanship,the world of a lot of old ways
that are simply not necessary.
I mean, I said to when I firstheard a Warwick Schiller
interview, NA Sean Cook, Icalled, I called them both, and
I called Warwick Schiller and Isaid, why would you go through
(51:32):
all that when you could justtalk to the horse?
And it's not quite that simple.
You know, my autistic brainoversimplified everything, but
it's about that relationship.
It's about what you're talkingabout.
And I am excited to see thenatural horsemanship go by the
wayside, and people have adeeper understanding of the
(51:52):
sentient spiritual nature ofhorse and what they're really
here to offer.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I do credit, I absolutelycredit the equine assisted
psychotherapy and learning spacehugely for this revolution
because if you look at it, whatwe're doing in that space.
(52:16):
Is, I don't wanna use the wordcapitalizing because I don't
like that.
I don't feel like it's accurate,but what we are doing is we're
employing the natural abilitiesor everything that a horse does
in an equine therapy sessionthat is their natural way of
being.
They don't turn it on and off.
(52:38):
No, they don't.
They, they don't have thecapability to turn it off.
That's just who they are and howthey are, and how they show up
in the world.
And so what that told me is thatit's never off it.
It's not.
So that means it's holds truejust as much in the training
space.
Mm-hmm.
As it does in the therapeuticspace.
Now it's up to the person ifthey wanna see it or not, right?
(53:04):
But it's always present.
It's always present.
And you can choose to align withit, recognize it, learn from it,
grow from it.
Or you can choose to ignore it.
But it's there whether you wannabelieve it or not, and sometimes
I feel like they have waited solong and been so patient with us
to see it.
(53:25):
Well, I think it's, it's anevolution.
Just like anything.
I mean, I believe that, Ibelieve, this is just my
personal belief, but that horsesare a gift to mankind who have
come alongside of us to really,I mean, horses have had a
firsthand.
Role in the evolution ofmankind.
(53:48):
It's true, right?
It's true.
Whether it's, you know, hunting,plowing, building, hauling,
fighting, you know, fighting.
Those are all the old ways.
But again, as we look atevolution, we don't need them to
do those things anymore.
So their role is changing and,you know, I don't know, I'm, I
(54:11):
mean, personally, I'm not.
Interested in the, thecompetition space Personally,
it, it has no interest.
Been there, done that.
But what's what has happened,and I believe the future role of
the horse in helping us in ourevolution is we are
disconnected.
(54:32):
We are disconnected from nature,we are disconnected from
ourselves.
We are so.
Unintentionally, well,intentionally, but
unintentionally to usbrainwashed by overstimulation
of information technology.
You know, we, we have lost touchwith who we are and how we were
(54:53):
meant to, to show up and movethrough life.
And that's what horses areshowing us now.
They're bringing us home toourself.
That is so beautifully said.
And you know, some of the, evensome of the phrases that you
chose are, are in previouspodcast episodes echoed by other
guests and that that was likesuch a beautiful, oh, I loved
(55:14):
what you just said.
I I think because that's soimportant, this might be a good
place to stop.
Yeah.
I love it.
Thank you so much for theopportunity to, to share and
chat.
No, this is wonderful.
Thank you so much, Amanda.
I am, I'm, I'm very pleased tohave had you on the show.
(55:34):
Thank you.
And if people want to join ourschool community I.
If you wanna get involved.
With the community.
It's my website is equine wisdominstitute.org, which I'm sure
you'll put in the comments, butif you go to the website, you
can join the school group fromthere.
And it's really just acommunity.
I say it's a community forpeople who have heard their
(55:55):
horses talk and they don't knowwhat the heck to do about it.
Or they've been talking to theirhorses for a long time and they
wanna share and help otherpeople who are new.
So it's really an evolvedcommunity a judgment free.
Place where you can go and youcan ask questions or you can
share your wisdom and helpelevate the consciousness of
(56:16):
horse owners.
It's beautiful.
I've en I'm enjoying thecommunity so much.
I'm so glad I found you.
Thank you for being a part ofit.
Yeah.
And thank you for theopportunity to come on your
podcast.
Yeah, no, thank you.
Thank you so much.
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