May 26, 2025 • 37 mins
Everyone's perspective is important, and there is always an underlying reason for an animal's behavior. We can gain so much by hearing directly from our animals, and it's reassuring to have things we think we know validated by an expert. Working with an animal communicator can provide us with lots of new information and insights! If you have ever wondered about animal communication or if it can help- take a listen and see for yourself.
Asha Wolf, DPT, CMA
Certified Animal Communicator and Energy Healer
720.627.9960
Asha loves connecting with animals!
Schedule a session for your special pet here: www.ashawolfhealing.com/animal-communicator
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
I wanna do a little preface toASHA's interview because we just
jumped right in.
ASHA's an animal communicator.
She's also a horse person, andshe had a conversation, with
Charlie about the episode of mypodcast, Charlie Bucks, which
(00:21):
outlines what happened on theHill when.
Uh, a trainer came flying offand I've been using my, my own
inner landscape, Charlie'shistory of training, uh, what
happened that day and, um,having people comment on it.
(00:43):
Excuse me.
So Chris has weighed in on it.
ASHA's weighing in on it.
Kimberly Dunn is weighing in onit.
And, um, we may have a coupleother people.
So looking at this from manydifferent perspectives, and I
think the question of how toproceed when a horse bucks the
questions of what, whathappened, why did he buck and
(01:05):
how to prevent it.
And, um, how to move forward areall like, very, very relevant to
most horse people and most horsetrainers.
So stay tuned.
As always, I really appreciateyour support.
Subscribe, follow, like donateand most of all, tell your
friends.
(01:25):
Thank you.
Well, I can't wait to hear whatCharlie has to say.
It's such a cutie pie.
I'm looking at his picture.
He is, he's such a sweetie.
So I'm just, I'm gonna direct itso that he knows what the
conversation is about.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm just telling him, Hey,we're gonna have a little
conversation.
'Cause he's like right with me.
(01:46):
But I wanna tell him that, like,I'm telling him he's a cutie
pie.
I tell him I really like him.
He's a cute personality.
Is what I'm getting.
Is this like really cutepersonality?
Is he a little bit in yourpocket?
(02:06):
Oh, he's in like c He likes tocome up and share breath and
then be kissed.
Okay.
I kind just saw him like rightwith you, like in in your space
a little bit.
Yeah.
In a cute way.
Mm-hmm.
And like appropriate way, butcute, right?
That you just kind of in there.
He really likes the humaninteraction.
(02:28):
Mm-hmm.
He really enjoys that.
It's like he wants to be morethan just a horse.
He wants to be a pet in a way,and he understands that it's
different than cats and dogs.
He's telling me Uhhuh and likehe's saying that.
People have rules about that.
(02:49):
He's like, I get it becausewe're big.
Mm-hmm.
But like, that's just kind ofwhat he's asking.
Like he, he wants to be a littlebit of a pet.
He's one of those horses you seeon Facebook that wants to come
in the house.
Okay.
Okay.
There you go.
That's what I'm picking up on.
He is just like, but heunderstands that it's different,
(03:10):
that he's a horse.
He's not like the dogs and thecats, like he gets it.
Mm-hmm.
Like he understands it'sdifferent and that he, that you
have to be different with himbecause he's big.
He's a horse.
Mm-hmm.
But there's this side of himthat just kind of really wants
(03:30):
to be your pet.
And I'm telling him That's okay.
That you guys can figure thatout together.
Yeah.
Oh, he said we're alreadyfiguring it out.
Okay.
We are.
Okay.
So I'm gonna I have a feeling hewould just keep going.
So, i'm gonna, I'm gonna ggently shift the energy to the
(03:54):
training sessions or, or whathappened the last time he had a
saddle on.
Maybe that's the way to do it.
I'm just kinda like getting afeel for what he, he gets for
the general.
Feeling of the trainingsessions.
'cause I remember tuning intohim briefly before with you.
Mm-hmm.
Like it wasn't a session, butit, we kind of tapped into him.
(04:17):
Mm-hmm.
What I got was he was readymm-hmm.
To do training.
He was ready, he was open, hewas willing, and he says that he
still is.
And then he says, oh, I knowwhat you wanna talk about.
And so, yeah.
So there we are.
Okay.
Let me, let me just get a feelfor what he has to say about it.
I'm gonna ask, basically I'masking him his perspective.
(04:39):
I'm saying, okay, so that's whathappened.
Can you tell me about that?
Mm-hmm.
What, what I just said to him,and then he says, too much, too
fast.
Mm-hmm.
I have a young brain.
Mm-hmm.
How old is he?
Nine.
Oh, okay.
I, I kind of gathered likefive-ish that maybe that's his,
(05:00):
like.
Where his brain is.
Mm-hmm.
'Cause he is not seasoned undersaddle at all.
At all, so.
Mm-hmm.
He says too much, too fast.
I have a young brain, let me seewhat else he has to say.
Oh, he's, he's changingsubjects.
He says, I love the trails.
(05:21):
Mm-hmm.
He says, I'm inquisitive.
Mm-hmm.
And people think that's a goodthing.
I know what he means by that.
Like, you know, we, we want ahorse to be curious.
Mm-hmm.
Because you can move throughthat versus being afraid of
everything.
Right.
Right.
Saying he's very inquisitive andhe knows that that's good, that
(05:42):
people like that about him.
Okay.
He says, I want credit wherecredit is due.
I'm a good horse.
That's fair.
He says, I've got a good brain,and then he's referring to the
trainer.
She was just too fast for myliking.
Mm-hmm.
(06:05):
And I'm telling him that that'sfair.
That it's our job as people to,you know, go at a pace that
works for them.
Yeah, I'm telling him that'sfine.
And then I'm asking him like,what would he like in regard to
the training.
He says, slow the pace andreward me better, and I'll be
(06:30):
fine.
Okay.
So it sounds like he wants tokeep being.
Trained to be ridden.
Yeah.
He has no problem with it.
He actually, he says, I ratherlike it because it's time with
people.
Mm-hmm.
So he has good associations withpeople.
(06:53):
He finds them very strangesometimes Uhhuh.
So do I.
Right.
It's like he likes trying tofigure them out.
He likes trying to figure youout particularly.
Okay.
He understands the training.
Is the training.
(07:13):
Mm-hmm.
So he's not so interested infiguring the trainer out.
He just wants to learn how to doit.
He's very open to learning.
He has no problem with that.
He's not resistant at all is he?
Is he aware that she's reallyhurt?
He says, no.
(07:34):
I did not know that.
We had the conversations withhim before about how fragile
people are and not bucking.
Do you remember that?
He says he just got fed up.
It was like too much, too fast.
He didn't get rewarded enough.
He's telling me there wasn'tenough pause.
(07:55):
Mm-hmm.
Like he, he's showing me hewants time in the ring.
Or wherever you write he is.
You, you writing in a ring?
We were, it's a big round pen.
It's like an oval pen.
It's like 14 panels orsomething.
Right.
It, it looked a little weird tome.
It wasn't like a traditionalYeah.
But he's showing me that space.
Mm-hmm.
(08:16):
And he's like showing me likestanding still, like he wants
time.
It's kinda like he wants to dowhatever he is supposed to do
and then he wants stillness.
Time to process, like processand absorb.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Like, like just where he is inhis training, it doesn't feel
like enough to like just take awalk break.
(08:37):
It's like he wants stillness andmaybe that's just his style.
He's saying, you know, the lickand chew thing is real.
You know how like we know, oh,the horse is leaking and chewing
the pro, they've di they'vedigested something.
Yeah.
It's like he's waiting for that.
That's a Yeah.
(08:58):
So he is showing me thestillness is how he licks and
chews is how he processes.
Whether he licks or chew or not.
He's showing me stillness is hisprocessing.
That's interesting.
Does he feel like anybody'sbroken agreements with him?
He's just telling me too much,too fast.
(09:19):
Like if there was some sort ofagreement there that was broken.
When you asked me that questionhis, when you asked that
question, his response was toomuch, too fast.
He says, take the time to let meknow I'm doing it right.
So when we, you and me, and he.
And you, me and Charlie had aconversation before we talked
(09:42):
about, rather than him Buck,that he would put his nose on my
boot to tell me time to get off.
And what happened is I told herthat, but when he was down at
her place, she pushed throughthat and decided to interpret
that it meant something else.
And was okay.
And so when that happened on theHill, things had escalated.
(10:03):
They were doing circles.
And I said to her, why don't youget off and ride Sipsy and I'll
walk Charlie for a while?
And she said, no, no, no, we'regood.
We can, you know, I can teachhim how to carry his weight down
the hill.
And I saw him put his nose onher boot and look at me and I
didn't do anything else.
The next thing I know he'srunning down the hill and then
(10:24):
he's bucking.
And she came up over a doubleflip over his head, one in the
air and one on the ground.
He's just showing me that.
He's just telling me that, he'slike, I had enough.
He didn't feel respected.
Okay.
(10:44):
The agreement, the agreementfelt like more between you and
him.
Okay.
Even though you said it to thetrainer, like the agreement was
between you and him.
So what I'm feeling is like whenhe looked at you, that was the
moment and you honored himbecause you, you had you spoke
up.
(11:05):
But he just keeps saying toomuch, too fast, like he was
done.
Mm-hmm.
There was some, he, like hismessage that he was done wasn't
received.
Okay.
Yeah, that's, that's fairenough.
And it sounds like you pickedthat up.
You saw that.
Yeah.
I mean, but there were a coupleof times in between him coming
(11:27):
home from her house where I goton him here, and I was only on
for a very short time and I gotnose to boot, so I got off.
Or at one point he just, he, hestarted to take me under a tree
and I didn't feel safe, so Iexited really quick.
And so.
In a traditional trainingscenario, which is not
(11:48):
necessarily where we are.
Like, I'm encouraged to get offand be safe to respect him, to
take slow bits, but in a, if welooked through a traditional
lens, I would be training himthat anytime he was
uncomfortable, I should get off.
Right.
So what I'm, what I'm trying to,what I'm gonna suggest to him
right now mm-hmm.
(12:10):
Is that I'm gonna ask him tohonor you.
In that the nose to the boot isnot to be used like anytime he
wants to be done.
Right.
It's only when he feels likehe's reached a threshold.
(12:30):
Mm-hmm.
And he, he, he can't handle anymore training.
Does that sound fair?
Mm-hmm.
I'm actually afraid after seeingthat I can't get it outta my
head.
I, I'm, I was hesitant and haand had fear about getting on
him before, which I've beentrying to work through and, and
(12:52):
now I have more.
Sure.
That would be a session for you.
We can unwrap that.
We could, we could, we can talkabout that, right.
But I'm, I'm just saying to tellhim that.
So, you know, every, so what I'mpicking up, and I'm not
surprised,'cause you know, he'sa horse.
It, it's not emotional to him.
(13:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I got that.
I, I He didn't do it to her.
No.
And he has no intention to do itto you.
It's just in the moment he wasdone and emotionally he was
done.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
It's like, you know, kinda likewhen we we can't handle anymore.
(13:36):
You know, it's like we eithershut down or we blow up.
Like we, we have reactions too.
Yeah.
If I was a horse, I would buck,there are a lot of times I would
buck if I was a horse, so hedidn't do it to anybody.
Right.
It's not, it, it was notmalicious at all.
It's not like he's planning ondoing it again.
It's just in the moment.
(13:56):
That was his reaction.
That was his response to what hewas feeling and what he was
dealing with.
So in that sense he, it's likehe's not sorry either, but it's,
it's just like, matter of fact.
Mm-hmm.
And so now that he knows thetrainer's injury, he's, he's
(14:18):
like, he's, he's, he, he's sorryabout it.
Like, he's like, oh, like hedidn't mean that to happen.
It's just Right.
She, she needed her off hisback.
Yeah.
She needed the break.
Yeah, he needed the break.
That's how he got the break.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
(14:38):
Yeah, he just keeps saying,don't forget the pause and the
release, and after I do, wellgive me some time, some downtime
in the saddle.
That's when he is talking aboutlike the, like let he, he's
like, let me stand and donothing so I can process like
mm-hmm.
(14:58):
I think he's telling me, he'stelling me that's his way of
processing.
Mm-hmm.
That's his way of licking andchewing, at least for now.
Okay.
Like, you know, the walk break Ithink still feels like work to
him.
Right, and that makes sense.
If he's not used to havingsomeone on their back and
they're asking for a walk, evenif it's a relaxed walk.
(15:21):
Mm-hmm.
Loose, rain, relaxed walk, it'sstill a walk.
It's still a job.
It's still, oh, I'm doing whatI'm being told.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So I think he just, he's askingfor a stop.
That makes sense.
Oh, then the trainer like, sitsdeep in the saddle.
A big exhalation.
(15:43):
To say, oh, we're not doinganything.
We're just gonna stand, sit.
Stand here.
And then, you know, he likesthat, like I hold myself up more
like an English style and shesits back on her pockets and
sits really deep and, and she,I've watched her when she rides
and she breaks, she does thatreally deep seated thing where I
(16:05):
relax, but I don't sit back.
And so you don't, you don't haveto sit back.
I mean, the sitting back anddown like you're describing, it
just makes it really clear tohim.
But he's telling me that, youknow, he's like, I'm sensitive
enough, he's, I'm sensitiveenough that I can read her
(16:25):
energy to talking about you.
Mm-hmm.
That if you exhale and justsink, that's enough.
Okay.
But you don't have to, you know,you don't have, you can, you
don't have to do it at Westernstyle.
You can, you can just.
Yeah.
I mean,'cause when he's, when Ihave felt, when I have written
(16:47):
him and I have felt like hisnervous system is starting to
come up a little bit orsomething's not right, that's
what I do.
I just stop writing, which islike, just stop, he's saying
with you, so I'm just gonna tellyou what he's telling me.
Okay.
He says with you, because youdon't ask a lot.
(17:09):
He's okay.
You don't need to stop so much.
Like you guys can just walktogether.
He's showing me just like thisrelaxed walk.
Mm-hmm.
And when you exhale and settleinto the saddle, you can do that
walking.
He enjoys the time with you.
(17:31):
Okay.
You, you don't ask a lot, right?
Because you're not like traininghim the way.
No, I mean, I'm asking him, youknow, to respond to being
steered and to respond to myweight and looking and my, my
leg and my, you know, boal.
But yeah, I'm not asking a lot.
I am gonna, if I continue toride him, I will start asking,
(17:53):
you know, for him to weave or docircles and spirals.
At some point, he, he's.
It's like he's telling me thatto him, that's more partnership.
That's just you guys hanging outtogether.
That's, it feels different.
That's all I'm getting from himis it feels different.
He understands when the trainercomes, it's official.
(18:15):
That's what he says.
It's official, it's serious.
It's like he's on, and so that,that raises his nervous system a
little bit.
That makes sense.
But with you, he's like, ah,it's like, it's, it's my mom.
It's like the energy's differentis what he is telling me.
(18:39):
That's all good information.
Thank you.
He so do, do we have more timeor where are we on our time?
Not outta time, but let's, no.
We can do a couple more minutes.
Okay.
So Amanda has this system aboutmetaphoric injuries that horses
(18:59):
may present with and how it's areflection of what may be wrong
with their person.
I think we were talking aboutthis like eye infections that
are not clearing up and maybethe person isn't seeing
something clearly or like rightarm pain.
So he bit me purposely pinchedmy right arm and I looked up the
metaphoric stuff for it and itwas spot on.
(19:22):
And in a way I felt like he'stelling me I like that system.
I would work with that system,no problem.
And then the last time I workedwith a client, he didn't bite.
Like it's one of the few timeswe haven't been worried about
him.
Bite is maybe the wrong word.
Pinching with his teeth.
I'm not getting anything reallyfrom it.
If anything, he, he just feels alittle confused.
(19:45):
Like he feels like he knows heis not supposed to, but then it,
something's not clear about itfor him.
The biting thing that whateveryou're calling it mm-hmm.
It doesn't have a great energyaround it, is all I'm getting.
Well, because he's been, he isbeen reprimanded for it, and
because I've been wishy-washy inthe past, it feels like there
(20:07):
have been lots of conversationsaround it.
That's what it's, it's the wishywashiness, he's confused about
it, but I've tried to be clearthat it's okay to use your lips,
but not your teeth.
In fact, you've helped me.
We've, we've had thatconversation with him and so the
last time he was really goodabout not using his teeth with
the client, and I wasappreciative of it.
Can you tell him that?
(20:29):
I'm just telling him that teethare not okay and that lips are
okay, and that he needs to begentle.
Very, very gentle that humansare extremely ridiculously
fragile, is what I'm tellinghim.
And letting him know that it'sokay, but we're not gonna do it
again.
And that's just the horse personand me kind of coming through.
(20:52):
'cause I just don't think it'sokay.
'cause once they start, it canescalate.
Mm-hmm.
Too hard for them to kind ofdraw wine.
Yeah.
That's me.
It's just no teeth.
But you know, the, the lips kindof like, you know, yeah, the
lips are good.
That's all fine.
(21:13):
And then he's like, I have ayoung brain.
I think it's kinda like you haveto treat him like he's five.
I keep getting that.
Well, Carissa stopped traininghim because of her schedule when
he was five.
That's where we left off.
Interesting.
That's so interesting.
'cause that's what it keepscoming in.
And he keeps reminding me thathe has a young brain and maybe
(21:36):
that's why that that mightactually have been something she
was saying when he was five.
That sounds like her wordingtoo.
Oh yeah.
And they could pick it.
They could pick it up.
Because he said that to me somany times tonight.
I haven't, I haven't even, Ihaven't even told you all the
times he said it.
He keeps saying it.
And then I keep just getting theidea of five.
(21:57):
Like the age five.
Well, can we, can we suggestthat he's way more mature than
he was when Carissa left offtraining him?
Yeah.
I'm just gonna, I just told himlike, you're a big boy now.
You're a big boy.
You're nine years old.
Like you're a big boy.
You're mature.
And I'm kind of inviting him tokind of like step up and act
(22:18):
like that a little bit.
Mm-hmm.
Like you're nine.
You're a horse.
You're just a solid horse,right?
Yeah.
With good ground manners.
Mm-hmm.
You know, the lay of the land,you know what's expected of you.
Now, he likes routine by theway, like what I'm kinda showing
(22:42):
him about being a horse and allthat.
He mentioned routine.
I think he likes routine.
It doesn't have to be the samething all the time, but he, but
he likes a little bit of thatroutine.
Yeah.
I'm just asking him to step up.
Okay.
I think that's kind of what heneeds is just a little bit of a
firm energy.
(23:02):
Mm-hmm.
Like, you know, you're nineyears old.
Act like it.
Yeah.
Right.
I think he's kind of got caughtin that 5-year-old, I'm a young
brain.
I have a young brain, that's whyyou said that to me so many
times.
So I'm like, no, actually, I'mjust gonna say you're not fully
trained to do fancy stuff undersaddle, but that doesn't mean
(23:27):
your brain is young, is what I'mtelling him.
Does saying, my brain is young abunch.
Is he, is he referring toCarissa?
Is, is there like a connectionthere between saying that and,
and her, it's kind of likethat's all people be.
He's saying that's all that theybelieve in me to be or something
(23:48):
like that.
So he picked that up somewhere.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm just telling him, no,that's actually not true.
I mean, some horses mature late,late or whatever, but yeah, we
can expect we have a differentexpectation because he's older
and, and that's fair.
(24:09):
So I think there's has to belike a little bit of a
separation, like when he's beingtrained.
Trained.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, he doesn't know a lot yet,and so you just take the horse
where, where he's at, where heis, right.
He's asking for a lot of pause,a lot of stop, a lot of reward,
not too much, too fast.
(24:30):
Okay.
He was very clear about that.
And then I think aside fromthat, like your job is to treat
him like he's nine years old.
Okay, I can do that.
I'm like, so you decide when hegets to be all in your face and,
and you know, and you decidewhen he's not right.
(24:53):
Like, like there's somethingabout like, just he loves to be
in your pocket, is what I keepgetting.
Mm-hmm.
But you can also ask him tostand on all four feet and you
know.
Be a mature man too, is what I'mhearing.
(25:15):
Like he's like, okay, like that.
That's new.
He hasn't really been asked.
That is what I'm getting.
Okay.
But I think that will help him.
Ah, yes.
So if you can step up.
Mm-hmm.
Freedom like.
Fully mature horse with goodground manners.
(25:36):
You know, good boundaries.
Like, you know that he's fullyrespecting you at all times.
Mm-hmm.
You can still have your play inall that stuff too.
Like that doesn't have to goaway.
Excuse me.
But I think that energy, likehim having to step up and be
that a little bit more, it'sgonna help him under saddle too.
(26:02):
Okay.
To help him believe in himself alittle bit more.
And I'm telling him that, youknow, he's, he, I'm, I'm saying
You got this.
Yeah.
You're more than capable, iswhat I'm telling him.
Yeah.
There we go.
Good.
(26:22):
Oh, thank you.
It's so helpful.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Yeah, getting to check in withhim, getting to see you.
It's all good.
Yeah, that was fun.
When you sent me the picture,I'm like, oh, what a cutie pie.
He's, he's such a sweetie.
Such a sweetie.
Wow.
Yeah, maybe I'll do somefilming.
Get out there and try theSaddleback on him and film it
(26:45):
and see, see what happens.
He just needs a hundred percentconfidence from you.
Mm-hmm.
That's a big task actually.
I know that, but that's whathe's showing me.
I can, I can be confidentputting the saddle on him.
I'm, I don't know that I'm readyto step into the stirrup because
I don't know that I'm confidentto sit on his back.
(27:06):
Mm-hmm.
But we'll take it one step at atime and see what happens.
He's a good boy.
Yeah, he is.
He's a lovely horse.
Yeah.
And then yeah, he, he's, he istelling me earlier, I don't know
if I actually said it, but he,he says, I'm a good horse.
You did say that.
Yeah.
And he is a good horse, and, andhe knows he is a good horse.
(27:27):
So we just need to help him stepup into his, his, his, the, the
full.
The fullness of who he is.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Like he really hasn't owned his,his maturity.
He hasn't owned all of who he isyet.
(27:50):
I wonder if some of that willhappen when he, when he is
ridden more in a ship.
Yeah, maybe writing.
I mean, it sounds like he wantsto be written like it's
important to him, like he wantsto keep going.
Part of me is like, part of meis asked like, is the dilemma do
(28:11):
I keep writing?
Is the dilemma to continuehaving him trained and who's
gonna do it?
All I get is he's, he's totallyopen to the training.
Mm-hmm.
To not have a problem withsomeone on his back.
He doesn't feel resistant to me.
Feels curious and inquisitive.
(28:32):
He's, he's willing.
Okay.
I think it's just a matter oflike, it's gotta mesh, like it's
gotta be a training style that,that he, that he respects and
handles.
And so he's, he told you veryclearly what he wants.
He just needs.
(28:53):
He's not saying that thetraining was wrong or not good
for him.
He's just saying he needs thebreaks too much, too fast.
Would he be open to working withthat same trainer if she could
adjust and respect that?
Yeah.
He's like, if she changes, thatwas her.
(29:15):
That was his attitude.
I guess if she does it the samething would happen.
Yeah.
That's kind of what he'simplying.
He didn't say that, but that'skind of his energy is like,
gotta change it.
Yeah, like, like it, he'sbasically saying that whoever it
is mm-hmm.
Not her particularly, whoever itis, is gotta do it his way.
(29:40):
Mm-hmm.
Because to him, that'srespecting him.
Right.
And that makes sense.
I mean, any, any trainer isgotta meet the horse where it's
at.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Is exactly the same.
Right.
And so I did, I haven't releasedit yet, but I recorded a podcast
(30:00):
yesterday with Kimberly Dunn,who is, I've interviewed her
before and she said a lot of thesame things that you are saying.
You know, because that's justher practice mm-hmm.
In training.
And I'm gonna check in with acouple of other trainers after
they listen to the, to the storyof the podcast, which I would
(30:20):
love for you to listen to nowthat we've done this.
I'm glad that you didn'tbeforehand.
And, and weigh, and they'regonna weigh in too.
So it's really great to have hisperspective and three
professional perspectives and,and then my perspective, and
maybe at some point we'll havewe'll have her perspective too.
I don't know.
But yeah, he, he said somethingand then I last and he said, if
(30:41):
I can get it back while you weretalking he just said she missed
my signals.
I was telling her.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and that's just,that's just us humans.
It's, it's, it's really hard.
It is.
It's hard.
We, we want to get so far, or wehave an agenda or we wanna
accomplish this, or, oh, thatwas good.
(31:02):
Let's do this.
And so we have a tendency towanna get more and more and more
find ourselves in the middle ofsomething.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or like, oh, that went reallywell, so let's, let's teach this
now.
Instead of saying, that wentreally well.
Great.
Let's stop.
Mm-hmm.
That's really, that's just hardfor humans.
It is.
But that's what he's asking for,and that makes perfect sense to
(31:25):
me.
Like, I mean, he's basicallyjust saying what, what he, what
he shared is to me like goodtraining.
Right.
It's, it's, yeah.
But he, he does seem to havethis energy of like, yeah, like
if, if he doesn't get enoughbreaks, enough rewards, if it's
(31:47):
too fast.
That could happen.
It could happen again withanybody.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a little bit ofthat youngness coming in like a
horse that was a little bit moremature might like handle it
different.
Mm-hmm.
(32:08):
I'm just gonna kind of pop thatinto his field, that there are
other ways.
Because he's saying, well, shedidn't get my signal.
She didn't get my signal.
So the signals could be bigger.
They could be different, is kindof what I'm telling him.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like there's so manydifferent things that, you know,
I'm showing him that he couldfling his head.
You know, something really bigthat's obvious.
(32:31):
Right.
He can stomp.
Mm-hmm.
He p, he paused.
He's a paw.
Or you know, hurry up with mygrain.
But that's impatience.
That's different.
Yeah.
That is different.
That's the hardest thing toride.
I mean, like, you know, buckuphill, buck on the flat, but
like maybe not the down.
(32:53):
Well, he was coming to me.
I think that's what it was.
I think it was heading towardsme and I was down the hill.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, like, I mean, youknow, like horses eventually
learn that buck's really notokay.
Right?
(33:14):
Like, you know, person gets ontheir back.
One of the things you, you know,you kind of ask them not to do.
I mean, every, every horse has abuck in it, right?
Mm-hmm.
You know, every single horse hasa buck.
You people say, oh, horses are,this horse is bombproof.
There's a buck in there.
Mm-hmm.
It's just the right situation,the right stimuli.
Yeah.
But, but most horses undersaddle know that Buck and Julie
(33:37):
not.
Okay.
'cause the human can get hurt.
Yeah.
Take my own horse, James, forexample, like.
He obviously knows bucking isnot okay, but yeah, he's a
thoroughbred.
He had his moment.
He is bucked.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Yeah.
But, you know, but you know, ifsomeone was to get on him and
do, you and then Carissa's gonnaif he's to be stubborn at
(34:00):
anything, he's stubborn aboutthat.
All right.
So noted now the train.
So it's like if knowing that nowI'd be like, oh, can I do what's
required of, like if I was totrain him, I'd be like, oh, I
(34:21):
better really listen.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Otherwise he might do a goodbuck.
Right.
Because I, it just feels like hedoesn't have a lot of tolerance
if he's not given enough timeand space to process.
It's, it, it is interesting and,and I know Chris will probably
(34:43):
remember and address this in herpodcast, but when she was
training him.
She is a far away.
So she would come for the wholeday and we, she'd do like 20
minutes and give him a break andcome and do a little bit more
and see if he could do more.
And he, with a five-year-oldbrain would often, she was
(35:05):
surprised how much he would beable to keep going if he had
breaks.
I think that's all he's sayingis I need my breaks.
So that totally makes sense andit makes sense that he would
have the idea from working withher that he would, it would be
fine for him to expect that,because that's the pattern that
(35:27):
was set.
He says, I felt very respectedthen.
So a lot of it, it's a respectthing to him.
Mm-hmm.
Respect me enough to give mebreaks.
Mm-hmm.
And to see where he is.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, like all, you know, allhorses would love that, but it
(35:49):
just feels like his tolerance isa little bit different.
Like some horses would just likebe grumpy and pushed through, or
just keep being confused and tokeep trying.
Mm-hmm.
And I think just for him, he islike, no, I want, I, I need a,
when I need a break, I need abreak.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's a very fairrequest, but I think it's very
(36:12):
clear that that's what he needsand what he, what he emotionally
needs.
And to him it's respect.
That's a human respecting him.
Mm-hmm.
And he's just very, he's alittle strong headed about it.
There's not a lot of room fornegotiation.
(36:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I think, you know, aslong as the writer knows that
about him and honors that abouthim mm-hmm.
He'll be fine.
Yeah.
Sounds good.
Thank you Asha.
You are welcome my dear.
(36:57):
Much love to you.
Yes, you too.
All I'll talk to you soon.
Bye.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
I wanna do a little preface toASHA's interview because we just
jumped right in.
ASHA's an animal communicator.
She's also a horse person, andshe had a conversation, with
Charlie about the episode of mypodcast, Charlie Bucks, which
(00:21):
outlines what happened on theHill when.
Uh, a trainer came flying offand I've been using my, my own
inner landscape, Charlie'shistory of training, uh, what
happened that day and, um,having people comment on it.
(00:43):
Excuse me.
So Chris has weighed in on it.
ASHA's weighing in on it.
Kimberly Dunn is weighing in onit.
And, um, we may have a coupleother people.
So looking at this from manydifferent perspectives, and I
think the question of how toproceed when a horse bucks the
questions of what, whathappened, why did he buck and
(01:05):
how to prevent it.
And, um, how to move forward areall like, very, very relevant to
most horse people and most horsetrainers.
So stay tuned.
As always, I really appreciateyour support.
Subscribe, follow, like donateand most of all, tell your
friends.
(01:25):
Thank you.
Well, I can't wait to hear whatCharlie has to say.
It's such a cutie pie.
I'm looking at his picture.
He is, he's such a sweetie.
So I'm just, I'm gonna direct itso that he knows what the
conversation is about.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm just telling him, Hey,we're gonna have a little
conversation.
'Cause he's like right with me.
(01:46):
But I wanna tell him that, like,I'm telling him he's a cutie
pie.
I tell him I really like him.
He's a cute personality.
Is what I'm getting.
Is this like really cutepersonality?
Is he a little bit in yourpocket?
(02:06):
Oh, he's in like c He likes tocome up and share breath and
then be kissed.
Okay.
I kind just saw him like rightwith you, like in in your space
a little bit.
Yeah.
In a cute way.
Mm-hmm.
And like appropriate way, butcute, right?
That you just kind of in there.
He really likes the humaninteraction.
(02:28):
Mm-hmm.
He really enjoys that.
It's like he wants to be morethan just a horse.
He wants to be a pet in a way,and he understands that it's
different than cats and dogs.
He's telling me Uhhuh and likehe's saying that.
People have rules about that.
(02:49):
He's like, I get it becausewe're big.
Mm-hmm.
But like, that's just kind ofwhat he's asking.
Like he, he wants to be a littlebit of a pet.
He's one of those horses you seeon Facebook that wants to come
in the house.
Okay.
Okay.
There you go.
That's what I'm picking up on.
He is just like, but heunderstands that it's different,
(03:10):
that he's a horse.
He's not like the dogs and thecats, like he gets it.
Mm-hmm.
Like he understands it'sdifferent and that he, that you
have to be different with himbecause he's big.
He's a horse.
Mm-hmm.
But there's this side of himthat just kind of really wants
(03:30):
to be your pet.
And I'm telling him That's okay.
That you guys can figure thatout together.
Yeah.
Oh, he said we're alreadyfiguring it out.
Okay.
We are.
Okay.
So I'm gonna I have a feeling hewould just keep going.
So, i'm gonna, I'm gonna ggently shift the energy to the
(03:54):
training sessions or, or whathappened the last time he had a
saddle on.
Maybe that's the way to do it.
I'm just kinda like getting afeel for what he, he gets for
the general.
Feeling of the trainingsessions.
'cause I remember tuning intohim briefly before with you.
Mm-hmm.
Like it wasn't a session, butit, we kind of tapped into him.
(04:17):
Mm-hmm.
What I got was he was readymm-hmm.
To do training.
He was ready, he was open, hewas willing, and he says that he
still is.
And then he says, oh, I knowwhat you wanna talk about.
And so, yeah.
So there we are.
Okay.
Let me, let me just get a feelfor what he has to say about it.
I'm gonna ask, basically I'masking him his perspective.
(04:39):
I'm saying, okay, so that's whathappened.
Can you tell me about that?
Mm-hmm.
What, what I just said to him,and then he says, too much, too
fast.
Mm-hmm.
I have a young brain.
Mm-hmm.
How old is he?
Nine.
Oh, okay.
I, I kind of gathered likefive-ish that maybe that's his,
(05:00):
like.
Where his brain is.
Mm-hmm.
'Cause he is not seasoned undersaddle at all.
At all, so.
Mm-hmm.
He says too much, too fast.
I have a young brain, let me seewhat else he has to say.
Oh, he's, he's changingsubjects.
He says, I love the trails.
(05:21):
Mm-hmm.
He says, I'm inquisitive.
Mm-hmm.
And people think that's a goodthing.
I know what he means by that.
Like, you know, we, we want ahorse to be curious.
Mm-hmm.
Because you can move throughthat versus being afraid of
everything.
Right.
Right.
Saying he's very inquisitive andhe knows that that's good, that
(05:42):
people like that about him.
Okay.
He says, I want credit wherecredit is due.
I'm a good horse.
That's fair.
He says, I've got a good brain,and then he's referring to the
trainer.
She was just too fast for myliking.
Mm-hmm.
(06:05):
And I'm telling him that that'sfair.
That it's our job as people to,you know, go at a pace that
works for them.
Yeah, I'm telling him that'sfine.
And then I'm asking him like,what would he like in regard to
the training.
He says, slow the pace andreward me better, and I'll be
(06:30):
fine.
Okay.
So it sounds like he wants tokeep being.
Trained to be ridden.
Yeah.
He has no problem with it.
He actually, he says, I ratherlike it because it's time with
people.
Mm-hmm.
So he has good associations withpeople.
(06:53):
He finds them very strangesometimes Uhhuh.
So do I.
Right.
It's like he likes trying tofigure them out.
He likes trying to figure youout particularly.
Okay.
He understands the training.
Is the training.
(07:13):
Mm-hmm.
So he's not so interested infiguring the trainer out.
He just wants to learn how to doit.
He's very open to learning.
He has no problem with that.
He's not resistant at all is he?
Is he aware that she's reallyhurt?
He says, no.
(07:34):
I did not know that.
We had the conversations withhim before about how fragile
people are and not bucking.
Do you remember that?
He says he just got fed up.
It was like too much, too fast.
He didn't get rewarded enough.
He's telling me there wasn'tenough pause.
(07:55):
Mm-hmm.
Like he, he's showing me hewants time in the ring.
Or wherever you write he is.
You, you writing in a ring?
We were, it's a big round pen.
It's like an oval pen.
It's like 14 panels orsomething.
Right.
It, it looked a little weird tome.
It wasn't like a traditionalYeah.
But he's showing me that space.
Mm-hmm.
(08:16):
And he's like showing me likestanding still, like he wants
time.
It's kinda like he wants to dowhatever he is supposed to do
and then he wants stillness.
Time to process, like processand absorb.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Like, like just where he is inhis training, it doesn't feel
like enough to like just take awalk break.
(08:37):
It's like he wants stillness andmaybe that's just his style.
He's saying, you know, the lickand chew thing is real.
You know how like we know, oh,the horse is leaking and chewing
the pro, they've di they'vedigested something.
Yeah.
It's like he's waiting for that.
That's a Yeah.
(08:58):
So he is showing me thestillness is how he licks and
chews is how he processes.
Whether he licks or chew or not.
He's showing me stillness is hisprocessing.
That's interesting.
Does he feel like anybody'sbroken agreements with him?
He's just telling me too much,too fast.
(09:19):
Like if there was some sort ofagreement there that was broken.
When you asked me that questionhis, when you asked that
question, his response was toomuch, too fast.
He says, take the time to let meknow I'm doing it right.
So when we, you and me, and he.
And you, me and Charlie had aconversation before we talked
(09:42):
about, rather than him Buck,that he would put his nose on my
boot to tell me time to get off.
And what happened is I told herthat, but when he was down at
her place, she pushed throughthat and decided to interpret
that it meant something else.
And was okay.
And so when that happened on theHill, things had escalated.
(10:03):
They were doing circles.
And I said to her, why don't youget off and ride Sipsy and I'll
walk Charlie for a while?
And she said, no, no, no, we'regood.
We can, you know, I can teachhim how to carry his weight down
the hill.
And I saw him put his nose onher boot and look at me and I
didn't do anything else.
The next thing I know he'srunning down the hill and then
(10:24):
he's bucking.
And she came up over a doubleflip over his head, one in the
air and one on the ground.
He's just showing me that.
He's just telling me that, he'slike, I had enough.
He didn't feel respected.
Okay.
(10:44):
The agreement, the agreementfelt like more between you and
him.
Okay.
Even though you said it to thetrainer, like the agreement was
between you and him.
So what I'm feeling is like whenhe looked at you, that was the
moment and you honored himbecause you, you had you spoke
up.
(11:05):
But he just keeps saying toomuch, too fast, like he was
done.
Mm-hmm.
There was some, he, like hismessage that he was done wasn't
received.
Okay.
Yeah, that's, that's fairenough.
And it sounds like you pickedthat up.
You saw that.
Yeah.
I mean, but there were a coupleof times in between him coming
(11:27):
home from her house where I goton him here, and I was only on
for a very short time and I gotnose to boot, so I got off.
Or at one point he just, he, hestarted to take me under a tree
and I didn't feel safe, so Iexited really quick.
And so.
In a traditional trainingscenario, which is not
(11:48):
necessarily where we are.
Like, I'm encouraged to get offand be safe to respect him, to
take slow bits, but in a, if welooked through a traditional
lens, I would be training himthat anytime he was
uncomfortable, I should get off.
Right.
So what I'm, what I'm trying to,what I'm gonna suggest to him
right now mm-hmm.
(12:10):
Is that I'm gonna ask him tohonor you.
In that the nose to the boot isnot to be used like anytime he
wants to be done.
Right.
It's only when he feels likehe's reached a threshold.
(12:30):
Mm-hmm.
And he, he, he can't handle anymore training.
Does that sound fair?
Mm-hmm.
I'm actually afraid after seeingthat I can't get it outta my
head.
I, I'm, I was hesitant and haand had fear about getting on
him before, which I've beentrying to work through and, and
(12:52):
now I have more.
Sure.
That would be a session for you.
We can unwrap that.
We could, we could, we can talkabout that, right.
But I'm, I'm just saying to tellhim that.
So, you know, every, so what I'mpicking up, and I'm not
surprised,'cause you know, he'sa horse.
It, it's not emotional to him.
(13:14):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I got that.
I, I He didn't do it to her.
No.
And he has no intention to do itto you.
It's just in the moment he wasdone and emotionally he was
done.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
It's like, you know, kinda likewhen we we can't handle anymore.
(13:36):
You know, it's like we eithershut down or we blow up.
Like we, we have reactions too.
Yeah.
If I was a horse, I would buck,there are a lot of times I would
buck if I was a horse, so hedidn't do it to anybody.
Right.
It's not, it, it was notmalicious at all.
It's not like he's planning ondoing it again.
It's just in the moment.
(13:56):
That was his reaction.
That was his response to what hewas feeling and what he was
dealing with.
So in that sense he, it's likehe's not sorry either, but it's,
it's just like, matter of fact.
Mm-hmm.
And so now that he knows thetrainer's injury, he's, he's
(14:18):
like, he's, he's, he, he's sorryabout it.
Like, he's like, oh, like hedidn't mean that to happen.
It's just Right.
She, she needed her off hisback.
Yeah.
She needed the break.
Yeah, he needed the break.
That's how he got the break.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
(14:38):
Yeah, he just keeps saying,don't forget the pause and the
release, and after I do, wellgive me some time, some downtime
in the saddle.
That's when he is talking aboutlike the, like let he, he's
like, let me stand and donothing so I can process like
mm-hmm.
(14:58):
I think he's telling me, he'stelling me that's his way of
processing.
Mm-hmm.
That's his way of licking andchewing, at least for now.
Okay.
Like, you know, the walk break Ithink still feels like work to
him.
Right, and that makes sense.
If he's not used to havingsomeone on their back and
they're asking for a walk, evenif it's a relaxed walk.
(15:21):
Mm-hmm.
Loose, rain, relaxed walk, it'sstill a walk.
It's still a job.
It's still, oh, I'm doing whatI'm being told.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So I think he just, he's askingfor a stop.
That makes sense.
Oh, then the trainer like, sitsdeep in the saddle.
A big exhalation.
(15:43):
To say, oh, we're not doinganything.
We're just gonna stand, sit.
Stand here.
And then, you know, he likesthat, like I hold myself up more
like an English style and shesits back on her pockets and
sits really deep and, and she,I've watched her when she rides
and she breaks, she does thatreally deep seated thing where I
(16:05):
relax, but I don't sit back.
And so you don't, you don't haveto sit back.
I mean, the sitting back anddown like you're describing, it
just makes it really clear tohim.
But he's telling me that, youknow, he's like, I'm sensitive
enough, he's, I'm sensitiveenough that I can read her
(16:25):
energy to talking about you.
Mm-hmm.
That if you exhale and justsink, that's enough.
Okay.
But you don't have to, you know,you don't have, you can, you
don't have to do it at Westernstyle.
You can, you can just.
Yeah.
I mean,'cause when he's, when Ihave felt, when I have written
(16:47):
him and I have felt like hisnervous system is starting to
come up a little bit orsomething's not right, that's
what I do.
I just stop writing, which islike, just stop, he's saying
with you, so I'm just gonna tellyou what he's telling me.
Okay.
He says with you, because youdon't ask a lot.
(17:09):
He's okay.
You don't need to stop so much.
Like you guys can just walktogether.
He's showing me just like thisrelaxed walk.
Mm-hmm.
And when you exhale and settleinto the saddle, you can do that
walking.
He enjoys the time with you.
(17:31):
Okay.
You, you don't ask a lot, right?
Because you're not like traininghim the way.
No, I mean, I'm asking him, youknow, to respond to being
steered and to respond to myweight and looking and my, my
leg and my, you know, boal.
But yeah, I'm not asking a lot.
I am gonna, if I continue toride him, I will start asking,
(17:53):
you know, for him to weave or docircles and spirals.
At some point, he, he's.
It's like he's telling me thatto him, that's more partnership.
That's just you guys hanging outtogether.
That's, it feels different.
That's all I'm getting from himis it feels different.
He understands when the trainercomes, it's official.
(18:15):
That's what he says.
It's official, it's serious.
It's like he's on, and so that,that raises his nervous system a
little bit.
That makes sense.
But with you, he's like, ah,it's like, it's, it's my mom.
It's like the energy's differentis what he is telling me.
(18:39):
That's all good information.
Thank you.
He so do, do we have more timeor where are we on our time?
Not outta time, but let's, no.
We can do a couple more minutes.
Okay.
So Amanda has this system aboutmetaphoric injuries that horses
(18:59):
may present with and how it's areflection of what may be wrong
with their person.
I think we were talking aboutthis like eye infections that
are not clearing up and maybethe person isn't seeing
something clearly or like rightarm pain.
So he bit me purposely pinchedmy right arm and I looked up the
metaphoric stuff for it and itwas spot on.
(19:22):
And in a way I felt like he'stelling me I like that system.
I would work with that system,no problem.
And then the last time I workedwith a client, he didn't bite.
Like it's one of the few timeswe haven't been worried about
him.
Bite is maybe the wrong word.
Pinching with his teeth.
I'm not getting anything reallyfrom it.
If anything, he, he just feels alittle confused.
(19:45):
Like he feels like he knows heis not supposed to, but then it,
something's not clear about itfor him.
The biting thing that whateveryou're calling it mm-hmm.
It doesn't have a great energyaround it, is all I'm getting.
Well, because he's been, he isbeen reprimanded for it, and
because I've been wishy-washy inthe past, it feels like there
(20:07):
have been lots of conversationsaround it.
That's what it's, it's the wishywashiness, he's confused about
it, but I've tried to be clearthat it's okay to use your lips,
but not your teeth.
In fact, you've helped me.
We've, we've had thatconversation with him and so the
last time he was really goodabout not using his teeth with
the client, and I wasappreciative of it.
Can you tell him that?
(20:29):
I'm just telling him that teethare not okay and that lips are
okay, and that he needs to begentle.
Very, very gentle that humansare extremely ridiculously
fragile, is what I'm tellinghim.
And letting him know that it'sokay, but we're not gonna do it
again.
And that's just the horse personand me kind of coming through.
(20:52):
'cause I just don't think it'sokay.
'cause once they start, it canescalate.
Mm-hmm.
Too hard for them to kind ofdraw wine.
Yeah.
That's me.
It's just no teeth.
But you know, the, the lips kindof like, you know, yeah, the
lips are good.
That's all fine.
(21:13):
And then he's like, I have ayoung brain.
I think it's kinda like you haveto treat him like he's five.
I keep getting that.
Well, Carissa stopped traininghim because of her schedule when
he was five.
That's where we left off.
Interesting.
That's so interesting.
'cause that's what it keepscoming in.
And he keeps reminding me thathe has a young brain and maybe
(21:36):
that's why that that mightactually have been something she
was saying when he was five.
That sounds like her wordingtoo.
Oh yeah.
And they could pick it.
They could pick it up.
Because he said that to me somany times tonight.
I haven't, I haven't even, Ihaven't even told you all the
times he said it.
He keeps saying it.
And then I keep just getting theidea of five.
(21:57):
Like the age five.
Well, can we, can we suggestthat he's way more mature than
he was when Carissa left offtraining him?
Yeah.
I'm just gonna, I just told himlike, you're a big boy now.
You're a big boy.
You're nine years old.
Like you're a big boy.
You're mature.
And I'm kind of inviting him tokind of like step up and act
(22:18):
like that a little bit.
Mm-hmm.
Like you're nine.
You're a horse.
You're just a solid horse,right?
Yeah.
With good ground manners.
Mm-hmm.
You know, the lay of the land,you know what's expected of you.
Now, he likes routine by theway, like what I'm kinda showing
(22:42):
him about being a horse and allthat.
He mentioned routine.
I think he likes routine.
It doesn't have to be the samething all the time, but he, but
he likes a little bit of thatroutine.
Yeah.
I'm just asking him to step up.
Okay.
I think that's kind of what heneeds is just a little bit of a
firm energy.
(23:02):
Mm-hmm.
Like, you know, you're nineyears old.
Act like it.
Yeah.
Right.
I think he's kind of got caughtin that 5-year-old, I'm a young
brain.
I have a young brain, that's whyyou said that to me so many
times.
So I'm like, no, actually, I'mjust gonna say you're not fully
trained to do fancy stuff undersaddle, but that doesn't mean
(23:27):
your brain is young, is what I'mtelling him.
Does saying, my brain is young abunch.
Is he, is he referring toCarissa?
Is, is there like a connectionthere between saying that and,
and her, it's kind of likethat's all people be.
He's saying that's all that theybelieve in me to be or something
(23:48):
like that.
So he picked that up somewhere.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm just telling him, no,that's actually not true.
I mean, some horses mature late,late or whatever, but yeah, we
can expect we have a differentexpectation because he's older
and, and that's fair.
(24:09):
So I think there's has to belike a little bit of a
separation, like when he's beingtrained.
Trained.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, he doesn't know a lot yet,and so you just take the horse
where, where he's at, where heis, right.
He's asking for a lot of pause,a lot of stop, a lot of reward,
not too much, too fast.
(24:30):
Okay.
He was very clear about that.
And then I think aside fromthat, like your job is to treat
him like he's nine years old.
Okay, I can do that.
I'm like, so you decide when hegets to be all in your face and,
and you know, and you decidewhen he's not right.
(24:53):
Like, like there's somethingabout like, just he loves to be
in your pocket, is what I keepgetting.
Mm-hmm.
But you can also ask him tostand on all four feet and you
know.
Be a mature man too, is what I'mhearing.
(25:15):
Like he's like, okay, like that.
That's new.
He hasn't really been asked.
That is what I'm getting.
Okay.
But I think that will help him.
Ah, yes.
So if you can step up.
Mm-hmm.
Freedom like.
Fully mature horse with goodground manners.
(25:36):
You know, good boundaries.
Like, you know that he's fullyrespecting you at all times.
Mm-hmm.
You can still have your play inall that stuff too.
Like that doesn't have to goaway.
Excuse me.
But I think that energy, likehim having to step up and be
that a little bit more, it'sgonna help him under saddle too.
(26:02):
Okay.
To help him believe in himself alittle bit more.
And I'm telling him that, youknow, he's, he, I'm, I'm saying
You got this.
Yeah.
You're more than capable, iswhat I'm telling him.
Yeah.
There we go.
Good.
(26:22):
Oh, thank you.
It's so helpful.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Yeah, getting to check in withhim, getting to see you.
It's all good.
Yeah, that was fun.
When you sent me the picture,I'm like, oh, what a cutie pie.
He's, he's such a sweetie.
Such a sweetie.
Wow.
Yeah, maybe I'll do somefilming.
Get out there and try theSaddleback on him and film it
(26:45):
and see, see what happens.
He just needs a hundred percentconfidence from you.
Mm-hmm.
That's a big task actually.
I know that, but that's whathe's showing me.
I can, I can be confidentputting the saddle on him.
I'm, I don't know that I'm readyto step into the stirrup because
I don't know that I'm confidentto sit on his back.
(27:06):
Mm-hmm.
But we'll take it one step at atime and see what happens.
He's a good boy.
Yeah, he is.
He's a lovely horse.
Yeah.
And then yeah, he, he's, he istelling me earlier, I don't know
if I actually said it, but he,he says, I'm a good horse.
You did say that.
Yeah.
And he is a good horse, and, andhe knows he is a good horse.
(27:27):
So we just need to help him stepup into his, his, his, the, the
full.
The fullness of who he is.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Like he really hasn't owned his,his maturity.
He hasn't owned all of who he isyet.
(27:50):
I wonder if some of that willhappen when he, when he is
ridden more in a ship.
Yeah, maybe writing.
I mean, it sounds like he wantsto be written like it's
important to him, like he wantsto keep going.
Part of me is like, part of meis asked like, is the dilemma do
(28:11):
I keep writing?
Is the dilemma to continuehaving him trained and who's
gonna do it?
All I get is he's, he's totallyopen to the training.
Mm-hmm.
To not have a problem withsomeone on his back.
He doesn't feel resistant to me.
Feels curious and inquisitive.
(28:32):
He's, he's willing.
Okay.
I think it's just a matter oflike, it's gotta mesh, like it's
gotta be a training style that,that he, that he respects and
handles.
And so he's, he told you veryclearly what he wants.
He just needs.
(28:53):
He's not saying that thetraining was wrong or not good
for him.
He's just saying he needs thebreaks too much, too fast.
Would he be open to working withthat same trainer if she could
adjust and respect that?
Yeah.
He's like, if she changes, thatwas her.
(29:15):
That was his attitude.
I guess if she does it the samething would happen.
Yeah.
That's kind of what he'simplying.
He didn't say that, but that'skind of his energy is like,
gotta change it.
Yeah, like, like it, he'sbasically saying that whoever it
is mm-hmm.
Not her particularly, whoever itis, is gotta do it his way.
(29:40):
Mm-hmm.
Because to him, that'srespecting him.
Right.
And that makes sense.
I mean, any, any trainer isgotta meet the horse where it's
at.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Is exactly the same.
Right.
And so I did, I haven't releasedit yet, but I recorded a podcast
(30:00):
yesterday with Kimberly Dunn,who is, I've interviewed her
before and she said a lot of thesame things that you are saying.
You know, because that's justher practice mm-hmm.
In training.
And I'm gonna check in with acouple of other trainers after
they listen to the, to the storyof the podcast, which I would
(30:20):
love for you to listen to nowthat we've done this.
I'm glad that you didn'tbeforehand.
And, and weigh, and they'regonna weigh in too.
So it's really great to have hisperspective and three
professional perspectives and,and then my perspective, and
maybe at some point we'll havewe'll have her perspective too.
I don't know.
But yeah, he, he said somethingand then I last and he said, if
(30:41):
I can get it back while you weretalking he just said she missed
my signals.
I was telling her.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and that's just,that's just us humans.
It's, it's, it's really hard.
It is.
It's hard.
We, we want to get so far, or wehave an agenda or we wanna
accomplish this, or, oh, thatwas good.
(31:02):
Let's do this.
And so we have a tendency towanna get more and more and more
find ourselves in the middle ofsomething.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or like, oh, that went reallywell, so let's, let's teach this
now.
Instead of saying, that wentreally well.
Great.
Let's stop.
Mm-hmm.
That's really, that's just hardfor humans.
It is.
But that's what he's asking for,and that makes perfect sense to
(31:25):
me.
Like, I mean, he's basicallyjust saying what, what he, what
he shared is to me like goodtraining.
Right.
It's, it's, yeah.
But he, he does seem to havethis energy of like, yeah, like
if, if he doesn't get enoughbreaks, enough rewards, if it's
(31:47):
too fast.
That could happen.
It could happen again withanybody.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a little bit ofthat youngness coming in like a
horse that was a little bit moremature might like handle it
different.
Mm-hmm.
(32:08):
I'm just gonna kind of pop thatinto his field, that there are
other ways.
Because he's saying, well, shedidn't get my signal.
She didn't get my signal.
So the signals could be bigger.
They could be different, is kindof what I'm telling him.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like there's so manydifferent things that, you know,
I'm showing him that he couldfling his head.
You know, something really bigthat's obvious.
(32:31):
Right.
He can stomp.
Mm-hmm.
He p, he paused.
He's a paw.
Or you know, hurry up with mygrain.
But that's impatience.
That's different.
Yeah.
That is different.
That's the hardest thing toride.
I mean, like, you know, buckuphill, buck on the flat, but
like maybe not the down.
(32:53):
Well, he was coming to me.
I think that's what it was.
I think it was heading towardsme and I was down the hill.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, like, I mean, youknow, like horses eventually
learn that buck's really notokay.
Right?
(33:14):
Like, you know, person gets ontheir back.
One of the things you, you know,you kind of ask them not to do.
I mean, every, every horse has abuck in it, right?
Mm-hmm.
You know, every single horse hasa buck.
You people say, oh, horses are,this horse is bombproof.
There's a buck in there.
Mm-hmm.
It's just the right situation,the right stimuli.
Yeah.
But, but most horses undersaddle know that Buck and Julie
(33:37):
not.
Okay.
'cause the human can get hurt.
Yeah.
Take my own horse, James, forexample, like.
He obviously knows bucking isnot okay, but yeah, he's a
thoroughbred.
He had his moment.
He is bucked.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Yeah.
But, you know, but you know, ifsomeone was to get on him and
do, you and then Carissa's gonnaif he's to be stubborn at
(34:00):
anything, he's stubborn aboutthat.
All right.
So noted now the train.
So it's like if knowing that nowI'd be like, oh, can I do what's
required of, like if I was totrain him, I'd be like, oh, I
(34:21):
better really listen.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Otherwise he might do a goodbuck.
Right.
Because I, it just feels like hedoesn't have a lot of tolerance
if he's not given enough timeand space to process.
It's, it, it is interesting and,and I know Chris will probably
(34:43):
remember and address this in herpodcast, but when she was
training him.
She is a far away.
So she would come for the wholeday and we, she'd do like 20
minutes and give him a break andcome and do a little bit more
and see if he could do more.
And he, with a five-year-oldbrain would often, she was
(35:05):
surprised how much he would beable to keep going if he had
breaks.
I think that's all he's sayingis I need my breaks.
So that totally makes sense andit makes sense that he would
have the idea from working withher that he would, it would be
fine for him to expect that,because that's the pattern that
(35:27):
was set.
He says, I felt very respectedthen.
So a lot of it, it's a respectthing to him.
Mm-hmm.
Respect me enough to give mebreaks.
Mm-hmm.
And to see where he is.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, like all, you know, allhorses would love that, but it
(35:49):
just feels like his tolerance isa little bit different.
Like some horses would just likebe grumpy and pushed through, or
just keep being confused and tokeep trying.
Mm-hmm.
And I think just for him, he islike, no, I want, I, I need a,
when I need a break, I need abreak.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's a very fairrequest, but I think it's very
(36:12):
clear that that's what he needsand what he, what he emotionally
needs.
And to him it's respect.
That's a human respecting him.
Mm-hmm.
And he's just very, he's alittle strong headed about it.
There's not a lot of room fornegotiation.
(36:36):
Okay.
Yeah.
And so I think, you know, aslong as the writer knows that
about him and honors that abouthim mm-hmm.
He'll be fine.
Yeah.
Sounds good.
Thank you Asha.
You are welcome my dear.
(36:57):
Much love to you.
Yes, you too.
All I'll talk to you soon.
Bye.
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