December 9, 2024 • 45 mins
Asha's talents, skills and way of being so fasinated me, that I had to know more. There is a recent theyme emerging in several podcasts about the arts, disaplin, open mindedness and personal growth. And in particular how dance and horses compare and contrast magically in rhythms.
Conversations here play into the next couple of podcasts to come.
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
This is the Horse HumanConnection.
A captivating podcast where weextend into the world of equine
assisted learning.
Horse Training.
and gentleness in working withthese magnificent creatures.
Captivating stories from theleading professionals and
ordinary people alike unravelnovel ideas in being with
(00:25):
horses.
The horse human connection is anidea, a place, and a voice.
The idea is to support the quietrevolution and recognize the
intelligence and true nature ofthe horse.
The place is a destination farmnear the Umpqua Forest and River
that slows down visitors andpatrons enough to experience the
(00:48):
shift.
The Voice is this podcast.
Welcome to today's episode.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have Asha with me again,and we had such a nice chat last
(01:14):
time, and I enjoyed interviewingher so much, I wanted to have
her back so we could talk aboutmore stuff.
Thanks so much for joining meagain, Asha.
Thank you for having me again,Ishi.
I'm excited to be here and Ihave no idea where this
conversation is going and I'mexcited about that.
Yeah, me too.
(01:35):
So I was sharing with Asha alittle bit before I hit the
record button that I wascontacted by a dancer who is
autistic.
Who's choreographer is workingwith horses and Liberty work in
dance horse.
And I am so excited to interviewthem soon, but today Asha and I
had wanted to talk about dancebecause we have that in common
(01:55):
and I wanted to ask her somequestions about it.
So it's always interesting howthings just circle in and all
the dots end up gettingconnected.
It's there really are nocoincidences.
So, Asha, tell me about, tell meabout your dance in New York,
what kind of dance did you do?
How old were you when you gotthere?
(02:16):
What, what was it like?
Well I was 18 when I moved toNew York City, to Manhattan.
I went, I went to New YorkUniversity, so that was what
drew me to New York City.
I grew up dancing, so I was onthe stage at, by the age of
(02:36):
five, literally doing little taprecitals, but then at the age of
six, I was in a musical calledCarousel and along with all my
dance that I did, both balletand modern, I loved the theater
as well.
And I did all the Musicals thatcame through my little town of
(02:58):
Fort wing, Indiana.
We were very lucky because wehad a brilliant director,
theater director that was, hehad an amazing way of, of
bringing out the best in reallyamateur folk.
And we also had a very giftedchoreographer and they were very
good friends and she knew how tomake people that didn't know how
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to dance, Look like they coulddance and, you know looking
back, it was such an amazingeducation.
You know, I would be in thewings, just watching every
performance and, you know, allthe scenes that I wasn't in.
I just.
just soaked it all up.
So I think I was really it wasinstilled in me to have a high
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level of dedication for whateverI, whatever my endeavors were.
And I saw an amazing amount ofprofessionalism for, you know,
that caliber of, you know, oftheater.
It was quite amazing lookingback.
I just feel so lucky.
And we had a good dance studioas well.
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We did a lot of performing inballet.
We put on the Nutcracker everyyear.
We did spring and fallperformances.
We had guest teachers come in.
So I was just really granted somuch in the way of just
education and the arts and whatit meant to be dedicated and
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what you love to do and toreally follow your passion and
Just the hours that we would putin.
It wasn't, it wasn't a recital.
It was just, it was aperformance.
You know, inviting us to be asprofessional as we possibly
could be at the age of 13 or 15,or however old we were.
It was amazing.
And so when I went off to, whenI was 16, I went off to a
(04:53):
performing arts high school inHouston.
And then I switched to anotherperforming arts high school
outside of Boston for my senioryear of high school.
And so again, I just got toimmerse myself in dance.
And that's when I really gotmore into the modern dance.
And then I went off to New Yorkuniversity when I was 18 and we
(05:13):
did ballet and modern both.
And And I chose to school thearts.
It's a sector of NYU because wewere invited to do lots of our
own choreography right away.
There's other, other schoolsthat would not let us really
explore our own Craigchoreographic talents until like
(05:33):
the second or third year.
And NYU was like, yeah, go forit right away.
And so.
We got to, you know, just pullour classmates into whatever
choreographic interest we hadand we got to be in each other's
works.
And that was just amazing.
Right.
That's a very different worldthan the choreography is very
different than being a dancer.
(05:55):
They're, they're really verydifferent creative expressions.
And just because you know, thevocabulary of dance doesn't mean
that you have an eye for how itall comes together on stage.
And yeah, interesting.
Wow.
So you had.
What was the level of dedicationbefore you went to the
(06:15):
Performing Arts High School?
Like, were you four times aweek, five times a week?
Pretty much every day because wehad rehearsals all the time.
So we were always rehearsing forthe next performance.
So as soon as the Nutcracker wasover at the end of the holiday
season, you know, in January,we're, we're getting ready for
(06:36):
the spring concert.
You know, so I just rememberbeing there all the time.
You know, we, I'd get off atschool and we'd have, I'd have
an early dinner and then I'd,I'd be at.
My ballet class at four 30 inthe evening, there'd be one or
two classes or a class and arehearsal.
And I remember being there untilnine o'clock and then going home
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and then, and then doing myhomework.
You know, so, so that's how itwent.
And then on the weekends we wereat the studio at least one of
those two days, if not bothagain, for.
You know, I guess Friday nightswere the night I didn't have, I
didn't have You know, I wasn'tat the dance studio unless we
were, you know, on the stagethat weekend.
(07:23):
Wow.
So that's, that was your life,school and, and dance.
That's, that's it.
Wow.
Funny nights.
I was a teenager.
I went to the mall.
That was like, that was like theone night I was kind of, you
know, the normal kid.
Right.
Right.
So when you, when we talkedbefore and you said, That moving
to New York gave you a differentperspective with dancers and it
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sounded like the dancers thatyou were around were much more
liberal than what you were usedto, maybe liberal is the wrong
word, that were more open tomore curve.
Esoteric things.
And well, it was me moving fromFort Wayne, Indiana to New York
City.
You know, granted, I was outsideof Boston that senior year of
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high school.
That was really nice because Ithink that's where I started to
really explore, you know,spirituality and more
alternative viewpoints.
You could say you know, it was,you know, a liberal school
there.
And so.
And we were all artists, youknow, so we, we had a lot of
existential conversations then.
(08:32):
I think that's where it reallystarted.
And that shaped part of who youare today.
As well as the dance, becausebeing a physical therapist, I
mean, in dance, you use everymuscle, you learn about all
these things that can contractthat are, I mean, are so
different than if you're just ona hike or doing, you know,
playing soccer or whatever.
(08:52):
I think that's one of the thingsthat dance gave me, was, you
know, exploring my own vesseland trusting what my body is
showing me or, you know, likelearning to listen to it in a
very intimate way.
And that, you know, I'm going tosay not all the dancers do that.
(09:14):
They're not always trained thatway.
You know, if they're trained tobe technicians or just depending
on who their teachers are, Ithink beyond the dance world, I
got into things like Alexandertechnique and Feldenkrais
technique.
And I remember just like, youknow, rolling on the floor and
breathing with people.
And I think I mentioned that inthe last in our last
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conversation, you know, when Iwas still in Fort Wayne,
Indiana, I would go to.
What was called the Fort Waynedance collective in downtown
Fort Wayne.
And I would be like a 16 yearold there in my unitard and, and
I'd roll around on the floorwith all these 30, year old
women, you know, that werereally exploring a whole nother
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way of being like, I justremember one woman like made
this whole dance piece up aboutthis, I can't hardly remember,
but person that lived inside ofher right leg.
And there was this dialoguebetween her and the right leg.
And it was just, you know, sooff the wall, but like, I was
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just like, wow, this is sofascinating.
And I just ate it up or gettinginto body mind centering and
being able to like, You know,explore what does it feel like
to move from my blood versus mybones versus my lymph system
versus my muscles, like, and howit possess such different
qualities.
(10:40):
I, that's the kind of stuff thatI was really into when I was 16
and 17, 18 years old.
And I brought that into even mymore traditional training at
NYU, you know, the, you know,the ballet.
Yeah, I can see how all of that,how all of that would integrate.
(11:00):
I, I had some similarexperiences.
I was never such a a, a gooddancer, but it was dance was in
my life.
And some of those things were inmy life.
And we had something calledcontinuum.
Which was like these micromovements and exploration of
very small movements and goingwith a movement that would look
(11:21):
like, I remember this womandemonstrating it and she was
making these sounds and she wasin this fetal position and she
was moving around and, and shebecame a fetus.
Like and that was just, itwasn't like she was trying to
become a fetus or there was anidea of it, but as she began to
move and explore, that's whereit took her.
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And so, I can remember then hergiving us assignments to
practice and it's something akinto what you're talking about
with the bone and the, and theblood.
And it took me, it took me intoa different place, a similar
place that horses will take me,you know, that that zone of.
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You're in the world, but you'relike in some kind of a
meditative state.
Like I'm sure the brain wavesare different.
Yeah.
So you had all of those thingsand you're in New York.
And then how long did you stayin New York?
How long did you dance?
And then when did horses arrivein your life?
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And was there, was there like aconnection there?
I was in New York city for.
I guess about eight years.
So after I finished my time atNew York university I did the
Laban Institute.
Laban Bhartani Institute forMovement Studies.
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I did that certification programthat was in New York City.
Again, just another way toexplore, you know, movement in
the body.
And and then I just did, I didsome, you know, professional
dance on the side and got intopersonal training and got into
teaching yoga.
Like, I just, I was that's how Imade my living in New York City.
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And then I hiked the Appalachiantrail from Georgia to Maine.
Wow.
And then, and then I with, youIn, you know, in Florida
briefly.
And then I settled inChattanooga, Tennessee and
decided to go back to school andgot my doctorate in physical
(13:27):
therapy.
So yeah.
And then, and then I juststarted playing with bringing it
all together.
So I delved much more into yoga.
I became a yoga educator.
So I've spent many years.
Teaching teachers how to beteachers, I guess doing, you
(13:48):
know, getting hired in to do alot of the anatomy and
physiology for teacher trainingprograms.
But I just what's alwaysthrilled me is just bringing it
all together.
I've never been 1 who likes tosit in 1 camp.
With anything actually.
You know, it's like, you know,in the yoga world, it's like a
strong and Iyengar like, youknow, opposite ends of the
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political spectrum basically inthe yoga world.
And I'm like, let's bring'emtogether, you know?
And so like, that's what I'vedone.
Like I just, I just mesh the twoin how I've taught.
You know, it's like, or Arangain yin yoga, they're very
opposite.
It's like there's benefits toboth.
They balance each otherbeautifully.
Let's do both.
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So that's, you know, and then ifI bring in all the other like
interesting stuff, all the, youknow, all the mind body, you
know, modalities and theAlexander and the filament
Christ and the body mindcentering and, you know, all the
more, you know, the contactimprovisation, you could bring
in the continuum, like all thatstuff and just blend it all
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together, depending on like whatgroup I have in front of me, you
know, what person I have infront of me, and just, you know,
learning how to follow the leadof the group in order to lead,
if that makes sense.
And what we do with horses, youknow, it's like, you know, you
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know, we're the human.
So we say that we're the oneleading, but I think we lead
best when we know how to followthe horse too.
Like, you know, every singletime we offer something, what
are they offering back, youknow, and, and that's how you
start to dance together.
You know, I've always felt liketo be really good.
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leader, you have to know how tofollow.
And it's like, if you have agroup of people that you're
teaching, that you're wanting toshare yoga with that day, it's
like, you've got to meet themwhere they're at.
You've got to kind of feel theenergy of the group and you
teach from that space.
To me, that's what lights me up.
It's just, you know, I come inthe room and I'm like, Oh, what
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are the, what's going to happentoday?
Like I might have an agenda,but.
I've after a while, I justdropped the agenda because, you
know, it's like the people thatare going to show me what, what
needs to be shared today, right?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've definitely had thatexperience too.
Wow.
So then, when did you startriding?
(16:21):
When did I start riding?
Two 2006?
Something like that?
2007?
It was really interesting, likeI didn't, I actually was invited
into the horse world through alot of natural horsemanship.
I'm sorry.
I learned, I learned a lot onthe ground before I really did a
lot in the saddle.
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And then I just, I just fell inlove because I just, I loved
that.
I love the way horsescommunicate.
And I, you know, of course, youknow, we love the energy that
they offer, you know, that thatthat space that they invite us
to come into if we're ready andif we're willing to listen and
to kind of meet them in their,in their energy field, which I
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think is, I think is higher thanours overall.
And then I just, you know, Ijust kept, kept, kept doing more
and more.
And then eventually my horseshowed up and, and we went on a
whole nother journey together.
Do you still dance?
When was the last time youdanced?
(17:25):
Oh, 2004 or five, six, somethinglike that.
It's kind of like my passionschanged, you know you dance
didn't light me up the same wayanymore.
And then I discovered horses.
Yeah.
Anyone who, you know, is in thehorse world knows utterly how in
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consuming it is and alwaysshapes and forms.
They are very compelling.
They are very compelling.
So you went from teaching yogaand teaching people how to teach
yoga and being immersed in allof that too, to writing, I mean,
you have a profession as aphysical therapist as well, but
(18:08):
the, the writing now, When youstarted, you mentioned that you
did Hunter Jumper, but when youfirst started writing, were you
like headed that way?
Or was it just likerecreational?
It was all just recreational andI just did a lot of play and
liberty work.
That's just what I was exposedto.
(18:30):
It happened to be.
What the teacher that I ended upwith did a lot of and so I was I
I that's that's what I did firstYou know and then start to build
my confidence in the saddle andthen I ended up basically just
looking for a place closer Tohome where I could ride instead
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of I was traveling quite a bitI'm just because of who I
connected up with and I waslooking for something close and
a couple people Recommended thisone bar and I'm like, oh my
gosh, it's 10 minutes from myhouse You And it ended up being
100 jumper barn, but that's notwhy I went.
It was just, you know, a couplepeople recommended the quality
of instruction there and it wasclose to my house.
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And I remember I walked in and,you know, the walked in for my
lesson and the woman there said.
Do you jump?
And I'm like, why is she askingme that?
And I had, I had, I had jumpedone time at a friend's place in
Georgia.
I had done this workshop ofcombining kind of yoga and
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horses together.
Just a lot of just mind bodykind of exploratory work for
people that weren't realcomfortable with horses.
And I led that retreat at myfriend's house using, you know
Her horses but during one of thebreaks, you know, we hopped on,
you know, and they let me jumpover this, these little cross
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rails.
And I just thought it was themost fun thing ever.
So that was my first experiencewith, with, you know, with
jumping was I was on a gatedhorse.
You just had just had to sitthere and point and he flew
over.
It was a lot of fun.
So, so when I ended up with thisplace close to my house, you
know I quickly learned like, oh,she asked.
(20:21):
If I knew how to jump becauseit's a hunter jumper barn.
Oh right.
Right.
She put me on the good old Danwho the joke is he's taught
everyone in our county had had aride.
And he's still around.
Actually, he's still, he's stilldo it.
He's still packing little kids.
He doesn't do the, but he'sstill, he's still doing it
(20:44):
anyway.
So, yeah.
So I had my first jumping lessonthat day and, and I was hooked.
I was just like, this isamazing.
I think what I love most aboutit is not so much the jumping,
but like everything that you doin between the jumps to set
yourself up for a successfuljump.
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That's what I love.
You know, just, you know,there's different perspectives
on the hunter jumper world, andsometimes it gets a bad rap and
I know why.
But for me, it was always aboutlike with my horse, it was like,
what do you want to do together?
You know?
And he liked to jump.
He actually liked to show hewould light up.
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I could feel body liftunderneath me when I'd walk into
the show ring.
Like he was all about it.
And that was the main reason Ishowed it was because he was
good at it.
James wanted to.
And was good at it.
Yeah.
He was good at it.
Yeah.
You know, he was a pretty steadymount for a Thoroughbred, you
know.
So, can I back up and ask you todefine a few things?
(21:49):
What, what do you call naturalhorsemanship?
And can you talk a little bitabout Liberty work as well and
what that looked like when youwere doing it?
Sure.
Well, I really can't definenatural horsemanship because it
was only what I was introducedto way back when I knew anything
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really about horses.
So I don't think that I'm reallyone to express, you know, like I
have my ideas around it.
But I also think that there's alot of things that.
Are considered naturalhorsemanship that I probably
wouldn't agree with.
There's a lot of thing,beautiful things that people do
with horses that doesn't get tobe put in that camp.
(22:31):
So, you know, I think it's a,it's a loose term.
That's it's used a lot.
But my experience was, you know,just all the groundwork we did
and really connecting to thehorse and learning to read the
horse's body language and, youknow, really learning what are
they thinking and feeling and.
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You know, giving them time andspace to like process something
before they do something atLiberty or before they are
invited to work with anobstacle.
And we had like a whole obstaclecourse out there.
So, you know, that's, that'swhat I remember is just like
I've always really respectedthem as sentient beings that can
(23:15):
choose to partner with us, youknow, and I've always loved that
piece.
I wasn't just thrown on a horseand learn how to, you know, to
ride.
I had that whole other piecefirst, which I think was, you
know, looking back was, youknow, a nice gift.
Like I didn't seek it out.
It's just what fell into my lap.
(23:39):
That's wonderful.
That's really beautiful.
So the Liberty work, it soundslike some of what you were doing
was without halters or leadropes, taking horses through
obstacles.
at different paces is that solearning how to regulate my own
energy create a shift in thehorse right now so you lift your
(24:02):
energy up you're going to get ayou know a horse that's more
alive right or if you you knowyou calm your energy down you
get you know like just playingwith that energy and for me it
was like You know, like it was awhole new world, right?
The horse world is, you know,like the weather, right?
But I am, I had so much trainingwith dance and being in my body
(24:27):
that in some ways it was a veryeasy transition.
Like I picked things up reallyquickly.
Like I, I understood, Oh, youknow, influencing my body is
influences the horse.
Like, it's like, Oh, I get that.
Oh, or even, you know, undersaddle, you know, I understood
things that my body wasn't quitecapable of doing yet because I
(24:51):
wasn't skilled as a rider yet.
But it's like, Oh, I understandlike shifting, you know, your
sitting bones is going to havean influence on the horse.
I get that, you know, you know,those subtleties that a green
rider can't necessarily do.
It's like, it was frustratingbecause mentally and emotionally
I got it.
Like even On a, even in my body,I, I got it.
(25:14):
I just.
The proprioception and theisolations that are required for
AIDS were already a languagethat you spoke.
It was just honing the skillsfor being on a horse because you
already had all the athleticismand all the, the neuro pathways
and the knowledge from yourbrain to your body.
Yeah, that's a really, you saidit better than I did.
Yes, that's exactly what I wastrying to share.
(25:37):
Yeah.
So there is like there is thisreally, I'm, I'm able to
verbalize it because Iexperienced it too.
You know, I was never been thelevel of dancer that you are or
the level of rider that you are,but because I've done both, I
understand the, the jump, theyou know, how all, how all those
things build the skill setsbuild to, to when you're on the
(26:02):
horse and the relationship thingand the being in your body it
makes perfect sense.
I think the most challengingpiece, I think with being under
saddle for me, what was learninghow to, how to feel my own body
and feel this other bodyunderneath me, like that was
(26:25):
new.
Like, you know, I mean, I didn'tdo a lot of like, you know,
partner work in, in dance.
And so just feeling this, youknow, thousand pound animal
underneath me and having tointerpret all that at the same
time, feeling my own body andhow to bring the two together.
(26:45):
Like that was a whole newexperience.
You know, I think it's magicalwhen it does come together.
I've only had a few moments likethat, but where, and I had a
trainer who helped me a lot bysaying, find your collective
center.
And, you know, when there wasthat and lightness in the rain
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and, and I could feel the horselike come up and join me and
that we were together like onlyfor a few moments, but it's such
a beautiful, beautiful thing.
It's amazing how much work andeffort we put into the horse
world to have those few moments.
Right.
You know, I've had lots ofamazing moments with, with my
(27:27):
horse, you know, it's, we have apartnership, right?
You know, you've been riding thesame horse for, you know, over a
decade.
There's bound to have some,you're bound to have some
special moments, but actuallythe, the ride that stands out
the most.
It was actually on my friend'sthoroughbred mare, not my own
horse.
Tell me, tell me more.
(27:47):
I want to hear all about it.
I, I rode her a lot for a whileand I got, I was just there one
early summer morning and thebarn was really quiet.
There was, you know, we made acouple of workers around, but
you know, it was quiet.
And I just tacked her up and gotready like I usually did.
And we went into the ring and,you know, she, she was, she was
(28:11):
trained by a really, really goodwriter.
But she had the most amazingrhythm.
Like she was the most rhythmicalhorse I've ever ridden.
And we just, it just, I justwent into a trance.
It was just, it was mostmeditative experience on a horse
I've ever had.
Like, you know, a lot of therides were beautiful with her,
(28:32):
but there was just that onemorning we were just in sync,
like, you know, I just couldhear the footfall, you know, on
the canner and I could hear herbreathing and, you know, and I
could feel my body and it wasjust, everything was just.
in sync.
We were just flowing.
And she, and I knew she felt ittoo because she just felt so
(28:55):
relaxed and happy and it feltlike she wanted it to go
forever.
You know, ears are forward andyou know, she was just, it was
just magical.
It was just amazing.
Sweet.
Yeah, those are sweet, sweetmemories.
Very sweet memories.
And horses do connect so muchthrough rhythm.
(29:20):
Yeah, which is another naturaltransition from dance, right?
Because when you have a group ofpeople in rhythm, dancing in
rhythm, the horses understandthat as well.
Yeah, it flows both ways.
Yeah, she was funny.
Like, you know, she's, you know,she's third bred mare.
So she had her opinions.
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And, you know, it's like, I wasalways like, well, let's walk
and then we'll try and thenwe'll canter.
And her mom didn't really trotthat much.
And so I was trotting her alongand she's, and then she just
broke into a canner on her own.
And she goes, well, my mom and Ido it this way.
And I'm like, okay, I'm notgoing to argue with that.
(30:02):
You know, you had a lovelycanter.
And no, and, and to go alongwith that, like not to have an
agenda, not to be in charge, butto be, you know, not to get all
like, Oh, this horse shouldn'tdo that unless I give it that,
you know, that commands to gointo a canter, but to be with
the animal, not in opposition ofit.
(30:23):
Right.
I'm like, well, I had no agenda,you know, I'm just gifted the
ability to ride this, thisbeautiful horse for my friend
and.
You know, she's, you know, shewas 15, 16 at the time.
She just retired from jumping,like, like, why not let her
lead?
Like, she's not going anywhere.
(30:43):
She just wanted to move into anice little canter, you know,
and she was showing me like, Ifelt like she was showing me
what she does best, you know,it's like, you know, why trot?
We can canter.
I have a lovely canter, youknow, okay, sweetheart.
And that's what I mean, likethat, that's actually, it's a
(31:05):
little bit of an example of, youknow, following in order to
lead, you know, because Iallowed her to canner and I
didn't like reprimand her for itor bring her back to the trot.
I just let her do it.
You know, I was following herlead, but I was still leading.
Like, I could have brought herback at any time.
(31:26):
You know, it's not like I lost,you know, my connection with her
at all.
Right.
That's exactly the kind of thingthat I would love more people,
you know, to fully understand,instead of having the dominance
rule always in effect.
And, you know, the, the, the.
It's, you open up to so muchbeauty and connection when you
(31:48):
can let go of those things.
And I think that the horses aremuch more happy and willing to
give back more when they have avoice more of the time, you
know, it's like, you know, if Ican give my horse a voice, you
know, a lot of the time, then Ifeel like they're more likely to
(32:12):
step up and take care of me inthose moments when I might need
a little support.
Because I know it goes bothways.
We talked before in the lastinterview about some of the
energy work and how you cameinto that as well.
Just trying to trying to thinkkind of where to go, where,
(32:32):
where to go next with with someof my questions.
Well, I think I've always kindof, you know, explored that,
that energy piece.
I think I really started todelve into that when I delved
into looking at spiritualitywhen I was 16, you know, things
really I really startedexploring at that time, but I,
(32:56):
you know, in, in my work is aphysical therapist.
You know, I'd have like, youknow, amazing success with most
individuals, but then therewould always be, you know, the
more challenging or interestingcase where, you know, normal
physical therapy protocols oreven.
(33:16):
My intuition using dance andmovement and everything that
I've gathered in the movementworld wasn't, you know,
necessarily like quote fixingthe issue, like I could
definitely tame the chronicissue or give them exercises to
kind of keep things at bay, butI'm like, There's a, there's
(33:37):
another piece.
And I, I knew there was anotherlike deeper piece, like a
psychosomatic piece.
There's an emotional piece.
There's like, you know, ourbodies hold story, you know,
every single cell in our body,you know, hold story.
I, I believe not just from thislifetime, but other lifetimes.
And so, you know, you can do allthe physical stuff you want, but
(33:59):
if, If the individual is holdingon to that story, either
consciously or unconsciously,then it, it, it may not shift
all the way.
That's what really got me intoreally delving into that.
The energy piece in even justthe last decade, it's like, I
(34:21):
want more answers.
I want more information.
I want more tools to help peopleshift the story.
More, more full healing.
Exactly.
And that, and that kind of justopened up the whole door with
animals and animal communicationas well.
You know, the same thing withthem as well.
(34:41):
Although animals are usually alittle easier.
They don't hold on to theirstory as much.
Horses, I think are a little bitmore like people because it's so
layered.
Like people, I think that.
Sometimes the horses it takes alittle bit more time for them to
process.
Dogs and cats seem a littlesimpler.
(35:03):
Yeah.
I wonder with horses too, howmuch they pick up from their
people, you know, like if it'sstill in our mind, what their
injury is, is it then in theirmind too, you know, as, as those
connections are, are, are reallydeep.
And I've, I've thought aboutthat.
It's actually a, such a greatquestion.
(35:24):
And I also wonder if it'sbecause they're just.
enmeshed in our history as well.
I mean, they went to war withus.
Like, like, I mean, I think theyjust, I think that they maybe
have more lifetimes with us andthey carry more story around us,
people, you know And not alwaysgood ones, right, that, you
(35:47):
know, as a healer, I have tohelp the horse unpack, you know,
like, I could be dealing withsome sort of physical trauma in
their body.
And it's like, ah, an Akashicrecord will pop in.
They'll show me a scene fromanother lifetime.
And, and that's when I startedto realize, Oh, they're more
like people, you know, they,they carry stuff more like
(36:08):
people do, or I haven't reallyseen like other lifetimes with
cats and dogs.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist,but I'm just saying, I don't
think they hold on the same way.
Doesn't seem to get stuck thesame way.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, and I'm stillexploring that, but that's been
my experience so far.
Well, horses do have the largestlimbic system other than humans
(36:31):
of land mammals.
So they certainly have plenty ofemotion to get stored.
That makes sense.
From a physiological standpoint.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And definitely have theintertwined history.
That's a big one.
Yeah.
What else?
What's up with you today?
(36:53):
What, what, what are you, like,not today as in like, today, but
I mean today, December 5th.
What's?
What's what's present for you?
What's present for me?
Yeah.
Just that I love animals somuch.
(37:14):
I want to help them so much.
And sometimes I feel honestlythat my heart is too big.
And I don't mean that in anegotistical way at all.
It's like, wow, it's just, it'shard to be on the planet
sometimes.
Yeah.
It's like, how do I help these,these beautiful creatures, you
(37:36):
know, these beautiful animalsthat haven't always had a voice,
you know yeah.
And that they, that they cancarry some of the same trauma
that people carry.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know that with our petsand our domestic animals, that's
so true, but my mind goes towild horses, you know, there are
(37:59):
so many wild horses that well,we really put them through it,
you know, with our laws and ourrules and our competing
pastures, grazing land forcattle and all the politics that
go into it and what becomes ofthem.
And I think, I don't know thatthere are very many people that
love horses that don't, feelsome pull to want to do
(38:22):
something about the plight ofwild horses and horses that end
up at rescues and to make shiftsfor them since we create so much
of this trauma for them.
It's heart wrenching.
Remember my horse, I asked myhorse about it once and he said
something like, it's all part ofthe great plan, but I'm sure
(38:42):
glad I'm not one of those, youknow, like, you know, it's, it's
big, it's.
It's huge.
And I, I haven't reallyconnected with any of, you know,
the wild horses, but I haveworked a lot with, you know,
other rescue animals and I've,I've worked with horses in
(39:03):
rescues.
You know, I've communicated withthem done some healing work on,
you know, like, Even justrescues from farms, you know,
turkeys and sheep and cows.
And, you know it's just, it'sreally interesting.
And, you know, it's when we getinto working with animals that
(39:24):
have such trauma, same withpeople, it's like, you know,
really having to hold my ownfield.
You know, otherwise you can justget swept away in, in, in their
immense pain and trauma thatthey've suffered.
You know, and, you know, it'slike when we think about holding
space for someone, you know,it's like you have to meet in
(39:47):
order to really help someone,you know, we, we have to, we
can't go with them in their, intheir, all their emotions.
Right, like we can feel forthem, but we have to kind of
hold our center.
Does that make sense?
And I, and I find it a littlemore challenging with animals
sometimes to do that because youknow that.
(40:10):
you know, they just, they just,they don't have a voice in the
same way that sometimes peopleare able to have, you know, or
choices the way people have.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're not responsible, butthey're also the most gracious.
They're the most they're alwaysso grateful, yeah, Of what can
(40:34):
be done.
Yeah, they're just so grateful.
They're always just so happy Ishow up for one of them
energetically they're justalways so happy, you know,
sometimes they don't know whyI'm there and I have to explain
it.
Most of the time they do, butyou know, you know, there's
just, it's very rewarding work.
Not always the easiest, butdefinitely rewarding.
(40:59):
Yeah, really good stuff.
How's Firefly doing?
She's been hurting a little bit.
She's had her blanket on and andshe's, she's looking like, you
know, here's another winner.
But she's, she's hanging inthere.
The horse that wants to beridden the most is the one
that's retired that can'tanymore.
(41:19):
I thought it was reallyinteresting what you said about
like, you know, I guess Firefly,you know, would love to be
ridden, but.
Really can't anymore, you know?
And I have felt the same waywith James, like I retired him
and he knows why, and he knowsit's not really safe for me to
be on his back anymore.
And, you know, he misses it too.
(41:40):
Like we, we think it's just us,you know, but you know, a horse
that Like that was so much ofour partnership was under
saddle, you know, he enjoyed it.
He enjoyed the work.
He enjoyed the connection.
He enjoyed the outings.
And it's like, I don't think wealways acknowledge that, you
know, the horses, you know, theyhave to adjust to a life changed
(42:02):
too.
Oh, yeah, I've watched herchange over the years and go
from being the absolute leadmayor of many, many herds to
being pushed around.
And, you know, I have now I haveto shut the gate to make sure
she gets enough food.
You know, I have to feed herseparately.
But we had it.
We had a little bit of time lastsummer where, I felt strong
(42:23):
enough to do, for me, they weresprints for her.
It was just barely a trot, but Iwould hold the lead rope and we
would run back and forth.
Well, she would trot and I wouldrun from the barn to the house
and get in that rhythm.
And, you know, we were talkingabout horses connecting with
rhythm.
I could get those moments withher running next to her, you
(42:44):
know, and, and that's what I wassatisfied with because that's
what's available.
I still play with that a littlebit with James too.
Like we, we will hit the dirtroad and we will play with like,
walk, trot, transitions, youknow?
Mm-hmm Because be connected.
Mm-hmm Like he, my energy shiftand he responds and it's so easy
(43:06):
with him.
but I get tired because, youknow, he's, you know, he is he
long-legged thoroughbred andlike, you know, he's finding his
nice little trot rhythm and I'mlike all in.
He's like, Oh, this is nice mom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I've got Charlie who's,you know, has a few rides on
(43:27):
him.
And when we go horse hiking up,up the road across the street,
he'll look at the ridge and wantto go up there.
What's up there.
Let's go explore.
And it's like, The only waythat's happening is if you can
carry, if you can carry me andthen we're back in that loop of
what's going to happen to my legwhen it seizes up because his
muscle just contracts from anold injury.
Even though the vet has said,you know, he's fine to be
(43:51):
ridden.
I know, and he knows he, he,he's not ready for that or
something has to happen first orI don't know, you know, anyways,
I will contact you for thatsession and this is probably a
good time to wrap up.
Yeah.
Yeah, this was a wonderfulconversation issue.
(44:12):
Thank you for making time for meto chat with you and record it
for all the people that listento the podcast.
Just, I love how theseexperiences all come together.
You know how the differentthings we do in our lives all
culminate to just make life thatmuch richer.
And then when we find otherpeople that have similar
(44:34):
experiences, The way it gets tobe shared is, is, I don't know,
to me, it's just remarkable.
And I'm so curious about theseother people with the dance and
the horses and the autism andwhat all that's going to be.
So it's nice to lay somegroundwork for that as well.
Well, I love the web of peoplethat you're building here with
(44:55):
this podcast.
The community is just wonderful.
I love it.
Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty excitedabout it too.
All right, I'll talk to yousoon.
Okay.
Bye.
This is the Horse HumanConnection.
A captivating podcast where weextend into the world of equine
assisted learning.
Horse Training.
and gentleness in working withthese magnificent creatures.
Captivating stories from theleading professionals and
ordinary people alike unravelnovel ideas in being with
(00:25):
horses.
The horse human connection is anidea, a place, and a voice.
The idea is to support the quietrevolution and recognize the
intelligence and true nature ofthe horse.
The place is a destination farmnear the Umpqua Forest and River
that slows down visitors andpatrons enough to experience the
(00:48):
shift.
The Voice is this podcast.
Welcome to today's episode.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have Asha with me again,and we had such a nice chat last
(01:14):
time, and I enjoyed interviewingher so much, I wanted to have
her back so we could talk aboutmore stuff.
Thanks so much for joining meagain, Asha.
Thank you for having me again,Ishi.
I'm excited to be here and Ihave no idea where this
conversation is going and I'mexcited about that.
Yeah, me too.
(01:35):
So I was sharing with Asha alittle bit before I hit the
record button that I wascontacted by a dancer who is
autistic.
Who's choreographer is workingwith horses and Liberty work in
dance horse.
And I am so excited to interviewthem soon, but today Asha and I
had wanted to talk about dancebecause we have that in common
(01:55):
and I wanted to ask her somequestions about it.
So it's always interesting howthings just circle in and all
the dots end up gettingconnected.
It's there really are nocoincidences.
So, Asha, tell me about, tell meabout your dance in New York,
what kind of dance did you do?
How old were you when you gotthere?
(02:16):
What, what was it like?
Well I was 18 when I moved toNew York City, to Manhattan.
I went, I went to New YorkUniversity, so that was what
drew me to New York City.
I grew up dancing, so I was onthe stage at, by the age of
(02:36):
five, literally doing little taprecitals, but then at the age of
six, I was in a musical calledCarousel and along with all my
dance that I did, both balletand modern, I loved the theater
as well.
And I did all the Musicals thatcame through my little town of
(02:58):
Fort wing, Indiana.
We were very lucky because wehad a brilliant director,
theater director that was, hehad an amazing way of, of
bringing out the best in reallyamateur folk.
And we also had a very giftedchoreographer and they were very
good friends and she knew how tomake people that didn't know how
(03:20):
to dance, Look like they coulddance and, you know looking
back, it was such an amazingeducation.
You know, I would be in thewings, just watching every
performance and, you know, allthe scenes that I wasn't in.
I just.
just soaked it all up.
So I think I was really it wasinstilled in me to have a high
(03:42):
level of dedication for whateverI, whatever my endeavors were.
And I saw an amazing amount ofprofessionalism for, you know,
that caliber of, you know, oftheater.
It was quite amazing lookingback.
I just feel so lucky.
And we had a good dance studioas well.
(04:06):
We did a lot of performing inballet.
We put on the Nutcracker everyyear.
We did spring and fallperformances.
We had guest teachers come in.
So I was just really granted somuch in the way of just
education and the arts and whatit meant to be dedicated and
(04:27):
what you love to do and toreally follow your passion and
Just the hours that we would putin.
It wasn't, it wasn't a recital.
It was just, it was aperformance.
You know, inviting us to be asprofessional as we possibly
could be at the age of 13 or 15,or however old we were.
It was amazing.
And so when I went off to, whenI was 16, I went off to a
(04:53):
performing arts high school inHouston.
And then I switched to anotherperforming arts high school
outside of Boston for my senioryear of high school.
And so again, I just got toimmerse myself in dance.
And that's when I really gotmore into the modern dance.
And then I went off to New Yorkuniversity when I was 18 and we
(05:13):
did ballet and modern both.
And And I chose to school thearts.
It's a sector of NYU because wewere invited to do lots of our
own choreography right away.
There's other, other schoolsthat would not let us really
explore our own Craigchoreographic talents until like
(05:33):
the second or third year.
And NYU was like, yeah, go forit right away.
And so.
We got to, you know, just pullour classmates into whatever
choreographic interest we hadand we got to be in each other's
works.
And that was just amazing.
Right.
That's a very different worldthan the choreography is very
different than being a dancer.
(05:55):
They're, they're really verydifferent creative expressions.
And just because you know, thevocabulary of dance doesn't mean
that you have an eye for how itall comes together on stage.
And yeah, interesting.
Wow.
So you had.
What was the level of dedicationbefore you went to the
(06:15):
Performing Arts High School?
Like, were you four times aweek, five times a week?
Pretty much every day because wehad rehearsals all the time.
So we were always rehearsing forthe next performance.
So as soon as the Nutcracker wasover at the end of the holiday
season, you know, in January,we're, we're getting ready for
(06:36):
the spring concert.
You know, so I just rememberbeing there all the time.
You know, we, I'd get off atschool and we'd have, I'd have
an early dinner and then I'd,I'd be at.
My ballet class at four 30 inthe evening, there'd be one or
two classes or a class and arehearsal.
And I remember being there untilnine o'clock and then going home
(07:00):
and then, and then doing myhomework.
You know, so, so that's how itwent.
And then on the weekends we wereat the studio at least one of
those two days, if not bothagain, for.
You know, I guess Friday nightswere the night I didn't have, I
didn't have You know, I wasn'tat the dance studio unless we
were, you know, on the stagethat weekend.
(07:23):
Wow.
So that's, that was your life,school and, and dance.
That's, that's it.
Wow.
Funny nights.
I was a teenager.
I went to the mall.
That was like, that was like theone night I was kind of, you
know, the normal kid.
Right.
Right.
So when you, when we talkedbefore and you said, That moving
to New York gave you a differentperspective with dancers and it
(07:47):
sounded like the dancers thatyou were around were much more
liberal than what you were usedto, maybe liberal is the wrong
word, that were more open tomore curve.
Esoteric things.
And well, it was me moving fromFort Wayne, Indiana to New York
City.
You know, granted, I was outsideof Boston that senior year of
(08:09):
high school.
That was really nice because Ithink that's where I started to
really explore, you know,spirituality and more
alternative viewpoints.
You could say you know, it was,you know, a liberal school
there.
And so.
And we were all artists, youknow, so we, we had a lot of
existential conversations then.
(08:32):
I think that's where it reallystarted.
And that shaped part of who youare today.
As well as the dance, becausebeing a physical therapist, I
mean, in dance, you use everymuscle, you learn about all
these things that can contractthat are, I mean, are so
different than if you're just ona hike or doing, you know,
playing soccer or whatever.
(08:52):
I think that's one of the thingsthat dance gave me, was, you
know, exploring my own vesseland trusting what my body is
showing me or, you know, likelearning to listen to it in a
very intimate way.
And that, you know, I'm going tosay not all the dancers do that.
(09:14):
They're not always trained thatway.
You know, if they're trained tobe technicians or just depending
on who their teachers are, Ithink beyond the dance world, I
got into things like Alexandertechnique and Feldenkrais
technique.
And I remember just like, youknow, rolling on the floor and
breathing with people.
And I think I mentioned that inthe last in our last
(09:35):
conversation, you know, when Iwas still in Fort Wayne,
Indiana, I would go to.
What was called the Fort Waynedance collective in downtown
Fort Wayne.
And I would be like a 16 yearold there in my unitard and, and
I'd roll around on the floorwith all these 30, year old
women, you know, that werereally exploring a whole nother
(09:58):
way of being like, I justremember one woman like made
this whole dance piece up aboutthis, I can't hardly remember,
but person that lived inside ofher right leg.
And there was this dialoguebetween her and the right leg.
And it was just, you know, sooff the wall, but like, I was
(10:19):
just like, wow, this is sofascinating.
And I just ate it up or gettinginto body mind centering and
being able to like, You know,explore what does it feel like
to move from my blood versus mybones versus my lymph system
versus my muscles, like, and howit possess such different
qualities.
(10:40):
I, that's the kind of stuff thatI was really into when I was 16
and 17, 18 years old.
And I brought that into even mymore traditional training at
NYU, you know, the, you know,the ballet.
Yeah, I can see how all of that,how all of that would integrate.
(11:00):
I, I had some similarexperiences.
I was never such a a, a gooddancer, but it was dance was in
my life.
And some of those things were inmy life.
And we had something calledcontinuum.
Which was like these micromovements and exploration of
very small movements and goingwith a movement that would look
(11:21):
like, I remember this womandemonstrating it and she was
making these sounds and she wasin this fetal position and she
was moving around and, and shebecame a fetus.
Like and that was just, itwasn't like she was trying to
become a fetus or there was anidea of it, but as she began to
move and explore, that's whereit took her.
(11:42):
And so, I can remember then hergiving us assignments to
practice and it's something akinto what you're talking about
with the bone and the, and theblood.
And it took me, it took me intoa different place, a similar
place that horses will take me,you know, that that zone of.
(12:03):
You're in the world, but you'relike in some kind of a
meditative state.
Like I'm sure the brain wavesare different.
Yeah.
So you had all of those thingsand you're in New York.
And then how long did you stayin New York?
How long did you dance?
And then when did horses arrivein your life?
(12:23):
And was there, was there like aconnection there?
I was in New York city for.
I guess about eight years.
So after I finished my time atNew York university I did the
Laban Institute.
Laban Bhartani Institute forMovement Studies.
(12:45):
I did that certification programthat was in New York City.
Again, just another way toexplore, you know, movement in
the body.
And and then I just did, I didsome, you know, professional
dance on the side and got intopersonal training and got into
teaching yoga.
Like, I just, I was that's how Imade my living in New York City.
(13:07):
And then I hiked the Appalachiantrail from Georgia to Maine.
Wow.
And then, and then I with, youIn, you know, in Florida
briefly.
And then I settled inChattanooga, Tennessee and
decided to go back to school andgot my doctorate in physical
(13:27):
therapy.
So yeah.
And then, and then I juststarted playing with bringing it
all together.
So I delved much more into yoga.
I became a yoga educator.
So I've spent many years.
Teaching teachers how to beteachers, I guess doing, you
(13:48):
know, getting hired in to do alot of the anatomy and
physiology for teacher trainingprograms.
But I just what's alwaysthrilled me is just bringing it
all together.
I've never been 1 who likes tosit in 1 camp.
With anything actually.
You know, it's like, you know,in the yoga world, it's like a
strong and Iyengar like, youknow, opposite ends of the
(14:12):
political spectrum basically inthe yoga world.
And I'm like, let's bring'emtogether, you know?
And so like, that's what I'vedone.
Like I just, I just mesh the twoin how I've taught.
You know, it's like, or Arangain yin yoga, they're very
opposite.
It's like there's benefits toboth.
They balance each otherbeautifully.
Let's do both.
(14:33):
So that's, you know, and then ifI bring in all the other like
interesting stuff, all the, youknow, all the mind body, you
know, modalities and theAlexander and the filament
Christ and the body mindcentering and, you know, all the
more, you know, the contactimprovisation, you could bring
in the continuum, like all thatstuff and just blend it all
(14:54):
together, depending on like whatgroup I have in front of me, you
know, what person I have infront of me, and just, you know,
learning how to follow the leadof the group in order to lead,
if that makes sense.
And what we do with horses, youknow, it's like, you know, you
(15:15):
know, we're the human.
So we say that we're the oneleading, but I think we lead
best when we know how to followthe horse too.
Like, you know, every singletime we offer something, what
are they offering back, youknow, and, and that's how you
start to dance together.
You know, I've always felt liketo be really good.
(15:37):
leader, you have to know how tofollow.
And it's like, if you have agroup of people that you're
teaching, that you're wanting toshare yoga with that day, it's
like, you've got to meet themwhere they're at.
You've got to kind of feel theenergy of the group and you
teach from that space.
To me, that's what lights me up.
It's just, you know, I come inthe room and I'm like, Oh, what
(15:58):
are the, what's going to happentoday?
Like I might have an agenda,but.
I've after a while, I justdropped the agenda because, you
know, it's like the people thatare going to show me what, what
needs to be shared today, right?
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've definitely had thatexperience too.
Wow.
So then, when did you startriding?
(16:21):
When did I start riding?
Two 2006?
Something like that?
2007?
It was really interesting, likeI didn't, I actually was invited
into the horse world through alot of natural horsemanship.
I'm sorry.
I learned, I learned a lot onthe ground before I really did a
lot in the saddle.
(16:41):
And then I just, I just fell inlove because I just, I loved
that.
I love the way horsescommunicate.
And I, you know, of course, youknow, we love the energy that
they offer, you know, that thatthat space that they invite us
to come into if we're ready andif we're willing to listen and
to kind of meet them in their,in their energy field, which I
(17:05):
think is, I think is higher thanours overall.
And then I just, you know, Ijust kept, kept, kept doing more
and more.
And then eventually my horseshowed up and, and we went on a
whole nother journey together.
Do you still dance?
When was the last time youdanced?
(17:25):
Oh, 2004 or five, six, somethinglike that.
It's kind of like my passionschanged, you know you dance
didn't light me up the same wayanymore.
And then I discovered horses.
Yeah.
Anyone who, you know, is in thehorse world knows utterly how in
(17:47):
consuming it is and alwaysshapes and forms.
They are very compelling.
They are very compelling.
So you went from teaching yogaand teaching people how to teach
yoga and being immersed in allof that too, to writing, I mean,
you have a profession as aphysical therapist as well, but
(18:08):
the, the writing now, When youstarted, you mentioned that you
did Hunter Jumper, but when youfirst started writing, were you
like headed that way?
Or was it just likerecreational?
It was all just recreational andI just did a lot of play and
liberty work.
That's just what I was exposedto.
(18:30):
It happened to be.
What the teacher that I ended upwith did a lot of and so I was I
I that's that's what I did firstYou know and then start to build
my confidence in the saddle andthen I ended up basically just
looking for a place closer Tohome where I could ride instead
(18:51):
of I was traveling quite a bitI'm just because of who I
connected up with and I waslooking for something close and
a couple people Recommended thisone bar and I'm like, oh my
gosh, it's 10 minutes from myhouse You And it ended up being
100 jumper barn, but that's notwhy I went.
It was just, you know, a couplepeople recommended the quality
of instruction there and it wasclose to my house.
(19:14):
And I remember I walked in and,you know, the walked in for my
lesson and the woman there said.
Do you jump?
And I'm like, why is she askingme that?
And I had, I had, I had jumpedone time at a friend's place in
Georgia.
I had done this workshop ofcombining kind of yoga and
(19:38):
horses together.
Just a lot of just mind bodykind of exploratory work for
people that weren't realcomfortable with horses.
And I led that retreat at myfriend's house using, you know
Her horses but during one of thebreaks, you know, we hopped on,
you know, and they let me jumpover this, these little cross
(19:59):
rails.
And I just thought it was themost fun thing ever.
So that was my first experiencewith, with, you know, with
jumping was I was on a gatedhorse.
You just had just had to sitthere and point and he flew
over.
It was a lot of fun.
So, so when I ended up with thisplace close to my house, you
know I quickly learned like, oh,she asked.
(20:21):
If I knew how to jump becauseit's a hunter jumper barn.
Oh right.
Right.
She put me on the good old Danwho the joke is he's taught
everyone in our county had had aride.
And he's still around.
Actually, he's still, he's stilldo it.
He's still packing little kids.
He doesn't do the, but he'sstill, he's still doing it
(20:44):
anyway.
So, yeah.
So I had my first jumping lessonthat day and, and I was hooked.
I was just like, this isamazing.
I think what I love most aboutit is not so much the jumping,
but like everything that you doin between the jumps to set
yourself up for a successfuljump.
(21:04):
That's what I love.
You know, just, you know,there's different perspectives
on the hunter jumper world, andsometimes it gets a bad rap and
I know why.
But for me, it was always aboutlike with my horse, it was like,
what do you want to do together?
You know?
And he liked to jump.
He actually liked to show hewould light up.
(21:25):
I could feel body liftunderneath me when I'd walk into
the show ring.
Like he was all about it.
And that was the main reason Ishowed it was because he was
good at it.
James wanted to.
And was good at it.
Yeah.
He was good at it.
Yeah.
You know, he was a pretty steadymount for a Thoroughbred, you
know.
So, can I back up and ask you todefine a few things?
(21:49):
What, what do you call naturalhorsemanship?
And can you talk a little bitabout Liberty work as well and
what that looked like when youwere doing it?
Sure.
Well, I really can't definenatural horsemanship because it
was only what I was introducedto way back when I knew anything
(22:10):
really about horses.
So I don't think that I'm reallyone to express, you know, like I
have my ideas around it.
But I also think that there's alot of things that.
Are considered naturalhorsemanship that I probably
wouldn't agree with.
There's a lot of thing,beautiful things that people do
with horses that doesn't get tobe put in that camp.
(22:31):
So, you know, I think it's a,it's a loose term.
That's it's used a lot.
But my experience was, you know,just all the groundwork we did
and really connecting to thehorse and learning to read the
horse's body language and, youknow, really learning what are
they thinking and feeling and.
(22:52):
You know, giving them time andspace to like process something
before they do something atLiberty or before they are
invited to work with anobstacle.
And we had like a whole obstaclecourse out there.
So, you know, that's, that'swhat I remember is just like
I've always really respectedthem as sentient beings that can
(23:15):
choose to partner with us, youknow, and I've always loved that
piece.
I wasn't just thrown on a horseand learn how to, you know, to
ride.
I had that whole other piecefirst, which I think was, you
know, looking back was, youknow, a nice gift.
Like I didn't seek it out.
It's just what fell into my lap.
(23:39):
That's wonderful.
That's really beautiful.
So the Liberty work, it soundslike some of what you were doing
was without halters or leadropes, taking horses through
obstacles.
at different paces is that solearning how to regulate my own
energy create a shift in thehorse right now so you lift your
(24:02):
energy up you're going to get ayou know a horse that's more
alive right or if you you knowyou calm your energy down you
get you know like just playingwith that energy and for me it
was like You know, like it was awhole new world, right?
The horse world is, you know,like the weather, right?
But I am, I had so much trainingwith dance and being in my body
(24:27):
that in some ways it was a veryeasy transition.
Like I picked things up reallyquickly.
Like I, I understood, Oh, youknow, influencing my body is
influences the horse.
Like, it's like, Oh, I get that.
Oh, or even, you know, undersaddle, you know, I understood
things that my body wasn't quitecapable of doing yet because I
(24:51):
wasn't skilled as a rider yet.
But it's like, Oh, I understandlike shifting, you know, your
sitting bones is going to havean influence on the horse.
I get that, you know, you know,those subtleties that a green
rider can't necessarily do.
It's like, it was frustratingbecause mentally and emotionally
I got it.
Like even On a, even in my body,I, I got it.
(25:14):
I just.
The proprioception and theisolations that are required for
AIDS were already a languagethat you spoke.
It was just honing the skillsfor being on a horse because you
already had all the athleticismand all the, the neuro pathways
and the knowledge from yourbrain to your body.
Yeah, that's a really, you saidit better than I did.
Yes, that's exactly what I wastrying to share.
(25:37):
Yeah.
So there is like there is thisreally, I'm, I'm able to
verbalize it because Iexperienced it too.
You know, I was never been thelevel of dancer that you are or
the level of rider that you are,but because I've done both, I
understand the, the jump, theyou know, how all, how all those
things build the skill setsbuild to, to when you're on the
(26:02):
horse and the relationship thingand the being in your body it
makes perfect sense.
I think the most challengingpiece, I think with being under
saddle for me, what was learninghow to, how to feel my own body
and feel this other bodyunderneath me, like that was
(26:25):
new.
Like, you know, I mean, I didn'tdo a lot of like, you know,
partner work in, in dance.
And so just feeling this, youknow, thousand pound animal
underneath me and having tointerpret all that at the same
time, feeling my own body andhow to bring the two together.
(26:45):
Like that was a whole newexperience.
You know, I think it's magicalwhen it does come together.
I've only had a few moments likethat, but where, and I had a
trainer who helped me a lot bysaying, find your collective
center.
And, you know, when there wasthat and lightness in the rain
(27:05):
and, and I could feel the horselike come up and join me and
that we were together like onlyfor a few moments, but it's such
a beautiful, beautiful thing.
It's amazing how much work andeffort we put into the horse
world to have those few moments.
Right.
You know, I've had lots ofamazing moments with, with my
(27:27):
horse, you know, it's, we have apartnership, right?
You know, you've been riding thesame horse for, you know, over a
decade.
There's bound to have some,you're bound to have some
special moments, but actuallythe, the ride that stands out
the most.
It was actually on my friend'sthoroughbred mare, not my own
horse.
Tell me, tell me more.
(27:47):
I want to hear all about it.
I, I rode her a lot for a whileand I got, I was just there one
early summer morning and thebarn was really quiet.
There was, you know, we made acouple of workers around, but
you know, it was quiet.
And I just tacked her up and gotready like I usually did.
And we went into the ring and,you know, she, she was, she was
(28:11):
trained by a really, really goodwriter.
But she had the most amazingrhythm.
Like she was the most rhythmicalhorse I've ever ridden.
And we just, it just, I justwent into a trance.
It was just, it was mostmeditative experience on a horse
I've ever had.
Like, you know, a lot of therides were beautiful with her,
(28:32):
but there was just that onemorning we were just in sync,
like, you know, I just couldhear the footfall, you know, on
the canner and I could hear herbreathing and, you know, and I
could feel my body and it wasjust, everything was just.
in sync.
We were just flowing.
And she, and I knew she felt ittoo because she just felt so
(28:55):
relaxed and happy and it feltlike she wanted it to go
forever.
You know, ears are forward andyou know, she was just, it was
just magical.
It was just amazing.
Sweet.
Yeah, those are sweet, sweetmemories.
Very sweet memories.
And horses do connect so muchthrough rhythm.
(29:20):
Yeah, which is another naturaltransition from dance, right?
Because when you have a group ofpeople in rhythm, dancing in
rhythm, the horses understandthat as well.
Yeah, it flows both ways.
Yeah, she was funny.
Like, you know, she's, you know,she's third bred mare.
So she had her opinions.
(29:40):
And, you know, it's like, I wasalways like, well, let's walk
and then we'll try and thenwe'll canter.
And her mom didn't really trotthat much.
And so I was trotting her alongand she's, and then she just
broke into a canner on her own.
And she goes, well, my mom and Ido it this way.
And I'm like, okay, I'm notgoing to argue with that.
(30:02):
You know, you had a lovelycanter.
And no, and, and to go alongwith that, like not to have an
agenda, not to be in charge, butto be, you know, not to get all
like, Oh, this horse shouldn'tdo that unless I give it that,
you know, that commands to gointo a canter, but to be with
the animal, not in opposition ofit.
(30:23):
Right.
I'm like, well, I had no agenda,you know, I'm just gifted the
ability to ride this, thisbeautiful horse for my friend
and.
You know, she's, you know, shewas 15, 16 at the time.
She just retired from jumping,like, like, why not let her
lead?
Like, she's not going anywhere.
(30:43):
She just wanted to move into anice little canter, you know,
and she was showing me like, Ifelt like she was showing me
what she does best, you know,it's like, you know, why trot?
We can canter.
I have a lovely canter, youknow, okay, sweetheart.
And that's what I mean, likethat, that's actually, it's a
(31:05):
little bit of an example of, youknow, following in order to
lead, you know, because Iallowed her to canner and I
didn't like reprimand her for itor bring her back to the trot.
I just let her do it.
You know, I was following herlead, but I was still leading.
Like, I could have brought herback at any time.
(31:26):
You know, it's not like I lost,you know, my connection with her
at all.
Right.
That's exactly the kind of thingthat I would love more people,
you know, to fully understand,instead of having the dominance
rule always in effect.
And, you know, the, the, the.
It's, you open up to so muchbeauty and connection when you
(31:48):
can let go of those things.
And I think that the horses aremuch more happy and willing to
give back more when they have avoice more of the time, you
know, it's like, you know, if Ican give my horse a voice, you
know, a lot of the time, then Ifeel like they're more likely to
(32:12):
step up and take care of me inthose moments when I might need
a little support.
Because I know it goes bothways.
We talked before in the lastinterview about some of the
energy work and how you cameinto that as well.
Just trying to trying to thinkkind of where to go, where,
(32:32):
where to go next with with someof my questions.
Well, I think I've always kindof, you know, explored that,
that energy piece.
I think I really started todelve into that when I delved
into looking at spiritualitywhen I was 16, you know, things
really I really startedexploring at that time, but I,
(32:56):
you know, in, in my work is aphysical therapist.
You know, I'd have like, youknow, amazing success with most
individuals, but then therewould always be, you know, the
more challenging or interestingcase where, you know, normal
physical therapy protocols oreven.
(33:16):
My intuition using dance andmovement and everything that
I've gathered in the movementworld wasn't, you know,
necessarily like quote fixingthe issue, like I could
definitely tame the chronicissue or give them exercises to
kind of keep things at bay, butI'm like, There's a, there's
(33:37):
another piece.
And I, I knew there was anotherlike deeper piece, like a
psychosomatic piece.
There's an emotional piece.
There's like, you know, ourbodies hold story, you know,
every single cell in our body,you know, hold story.
I, I believe not just from thislifetime, but other lifetimes.
And so, you know, you can do allthe physical stuff you want, but
(33:59):
if, If the individual is holdingon to that story, either
consciously or unconsciously,then it, it, it may not shift
all the way.
That's what really got me intoreally delving into that.
The energy piece in even justthe last decade, it's like, I
(34:21):
want more answers.
I want more information.
I want more tools to help peopleshift the story.
More, more full healing.
Exactly.
And that, and that kind of justopened up the whole door with
animals and animal communicationas well.
You know, the same thing withthem as well.
(34:41):
Although animals are usually alittle easier.
They don't hold on to theirstory as much.
Horses, I think are a little bitmore like people because it's so
layered.
Like people, I think that.
Sometimes the horses it takes alittle bit more time for them to
process.
Dogs and cats seem a littlesimpler.
(35:03):
Yeah.
I wonder with horses too, howmuch they pick up from their
people, you know, like if it'sstill in our mind, what their
injury is, is it then in theirmind too, you know, as, as those
connections are, are, are reallydeep.
And I've, I've thought aboutthat.
It's actually a, such a greatquestion.
(35:24):
And I also wonder if it'sbecause they're just.
enmeshed in our history as well.
I mean, they went to war withus.
Like, like, I mean, I think theyjust, I think that they maybe
have more lifetimes with us andthey carry more story around us,
people, you know And not alwaysgood ones, right, that, you
(35:47):
know, as a healer, I have tohelp the horse unpack, you know,
like, I could be dealing withsome sort of physical trauma in
their body.
And it's like, ah, an Akashicrecord will pop in.
They'll show me a scene fromanother lifetime.
And, and that's when I startedto realize, Oh, they're more
like people, you know, they,they carry stuff more like
(36:08):
people do, or I haven't reallyseen like other lifetimes with
cats and dogs.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist,but I'm just saying, I don't
think they hold on the same way.
Doesn't seem to get stuck thesame way.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, and I'm stillexploring that, but that's been
my experience so far.
Well, horses do have the largestlimbic system other than humans
(36:31):
of land mammals.
So they certainly have plenty ofemotion to get stored.
That makes sense.
From a physiological standpoint.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And definitely have theintertwined history.
That's a big one.
Yeah.
What else?
What's up with you today?
(36:53):
What, what, what are you, like,not today as in like, today, but
I mean today, December 5th.
What's?
What's what's present for you?
What's present for me?
Yeah.
Just that I love animals somuch.
(37:14):
I want to help them so much.
And sometimes I feel honestlythat my heart is too big.
And I don't mean that in anegotistical way at all.
It's like, wow, it's just, it'shard to be on the planet
sometimes.
Yeah.
It's like, how do I help these,these beautiful creatures, you
(37:36):
know, these beautiful animalsthat haven't always had a voice,
you know yeah.
And that they, that they cancarry some of the same trauma
that people carry.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know that with our petsand our domestic animals, that's
so true, but my mind goes towild horses, you know, there are
(37:59):
so many wild horses that well,we really put them through it,
you know, with our laws and ourrules and our competing
pastures, grazing land forcattle and all the politics that
go into it and what becomes ofthem.
And I think, I don't know thatthere are very many people that
love horses that don't, feelsome pull to want to do
(38:22):
something about the plight ofwild horses and horses that end
up at rescues and to make shiftsfor them since we create so much
of this trauma for them.
It's heart wrenching.
Remember my horse, I asked myhorse about it once and he said
something like, it's all part ofthe great plan, but I'm sure
(38:42):
glad I'm not one of those, youknow, like, you know, it's, it's
big, it's.
It's huge.
And I, I haven't reallyconnected with any of, you know,
the wild horses, but I haveworked a lot with, you know,
other rescue animals and I've,I've worked with horses in
(39:03):
rescues.
You know, I've communicated withthem done some healing work on,
you know, like, Even justrescues from farms, you know,
turkeys and sheep and cows.
And, you know it's just, it'sreally interesting.
And, you know, it's when we getinto working with animals that
(39:24):
have such trauma, same withpeople, it's like, you know,
really having to hold my ownfield.
You know, otherwise you can justget swept away in, in, in their
immense pain and trauma thatthey've suffered.
You know, and, you know, it'slike when we think about holding
space for someone, you know,it's like you have to meet in
(39:47):
order to really help someone,you know, we, we have to, we
can't go with them in their, intheir, all their emotions.
Right, like we can feel forthem, but we have to kind of
hold our center.
Does that make sense?
And I, and I find it a littlemore challenging with animals
sometimes to do that because youknow that.
(40:10):
you know, they just, they just,they don't have a voice in the
same way that sometimes peopleare able to have, you know, or
choices the way people have.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're not responsible, butthey're also the most gracious.
They're the most they're alwaysso grateful, yeah, Of what can
(40:34):
be done.
Yeah, they're just so grateful.
They're always just so happy Ishow up for one of them
energetically they're justalways so happy, you know,
sometimes they don't know whyI'm there and I have to explain
it.
Most of the time they do, butyou know, you know, there's
just, it's very rewarding work.
Not always the easiest, butdefinitely rewarding.
(40:59):
Yeah, really good stuff.
How's Firefly doing?
She's been hurting a little bit.
She's had her blanket on and andshe's, she's looking like, you
know, here's another winner.
But she's, she's hanging inthere.
The horse that wants to beridden the most is the one
that's retired that can'tanymore.
(41:19):
I thought it was reallyinteresting what you said about
like, you know, I guess Firefly,you know, would love to be
ridden, but.
Really can't anymore, you know?
And I have felt the same waywith James, like I retired him
and he knows why, and he knowsit's not really safe for me to
be on his back anymore.
And, you know, he misses it too.
(41:40):
Like we, we think it's just us,you know, but you know, a horse
that Like that was so much ofour partnership was under
saddle, you know, he enjoyed it.
He enjoyed the work.
He enjoyed the connection.
He enjoyed the outings.
And it's like, I don't think wealways acknowledge that, you
know, the horses, you know, theyhave to adjust to a life changed
(42:02):
too.
Oh, yeah, I've watched herchange over the years and go
from being the absolute leadmayor of many, many herds to
being pushed around.
And, you know, I have now I haveto shut the gate to make sure
she gets enough food.
You know, I have to feed herseparately.
But we had it.
We had a little bit of time lastsummer where, I felt strong
(42:23):
enough to do, for me, they weresprints for her.
It was just barely a trot, but Iwould hold the lead rope and we
would run back and forth.
Well, she would trot and I wouldrun from the barn to the house
and get in that rhythm.
And, you know, we were talkingabout horses connecting with
rhythm.
I could get those moments withher running next to her, you
(42:44):
know, and, and that's what I wassatisfied with because that's
what's available.
I still play with that a littlebit with James too.
Like we, we will hit the dirtroad and we will play with like,
walk, trot, transitions, youknow?
Mm-hmm Because be connected.
Mm-hmm Like he, my energy shiftand he responds and it's so easy
(43:06):
with him.
but I get tired because, youknow, he's, you know, he is he
long-legged thoroughbred andlike, you know, he's finding his
nice little trot rhythm and I'mlike all in.
He's like, Oh, this is nice mom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I've got Charlie who's,you know, has a few rides on
(43:27):
him.
And when we go horse hiking up,up the road across the street,
he'll look at the ridge and wantto go up there.
What's up there.
Let's go explore.
And it's like, The only waythat's happening is if you can
carry, if you can carry me andthen we're back in that loop of
what's going to happen to my legwhen it seizes up because his
muscle just contracts from anold injury.
Even though the vet has said,you know, he's fine to be
(43:51):
ridden.
I know, and he knows he, he,he's not ready for that or
something has to happen first orI don't know, you know, anyways,
I will contact you for thatsession and this is probably a
good time to wrap up.
Yeah.
Yeah, this was a wonderfulconversation issue.
(44:12):
Thank you for making time for meto chat with you and record it
for all the people that listento the podcast.
Just, I love how theseexperiences all come together.
You know how the differentthings we do in our lives all
culminate to just make life thatmuch richer.
And then when we find otherpeople that have similar
(44:34):
experiences, The way it gets tobe shared is, is, I don't know,
to me, it's just remarkable.
And I'm so curious about theseother people with the dance and
the horses and the autism andwhat all that's going to be.
So it's nice to lay somegroundwork for that as well.
Well, I love the web of peoplethat you're building here with
(44:55):
this podcast.
The community is just wonderful.
I love it.
Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty excitedabout it too.
All right, I'll talk to yousoon.
Okay.
Bye.
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