It is always a treat to get Charissa Schmidt to weigh in on subjects, her wisdom, experience and education make for well rounded discussions. Any parent, horse trainer, or person in any relationship will gain insights from this talk. The threshold of tolerance, Jungian and humanistic principles, and transference all weave into this parallel discussion about horse training and relationship.
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection.
I have Carissa Schmidt with metoday to comment on the YouTube
and podcast that I did aboutCharlie Bucks.
And a little bit of backgroundis that Carissa had worked with
Charlie when he was five.
(00:21):
Four.
Several months and got him to aplace where she was able to get
on and taught me a little bitmore about training in the
process.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm anxious to hear all thethings that you have to say.
Oh.
So wanna remind people thatKrisa is a clinical supervisor
and a Help me out therapist.
(00:43):
So I have a LPC, so I have amaster's in clinical mental
health counseling, and then I,my license is as a licensed
professional counselor inOregon, and then I'm.
Credentialed to supervise LPCsand MFT, which are marriage and
family therapists as well in thestate of Oregon.
(01:04):
So, okay.
So because they're the, thestory as I told it on the
podcast has some elements of mytreatment in EMDR possibly
affecting, some of my realityon, on that particular day too.
So you're very well qualified tocomment on the entire thing as a
(01:25):
horse trainer, as a therapist,the whole thing.
Okay.
I think I'm gonna start withinthe scope of the horse trainer
first and just like, mm-hmm.
So I listened to your podcast.
You had told me a little bitabout what was going on first,
and then we tried to connect andtalk and the scheduling didn't
work.
So I got the story for the firsttime from you through the
(01:48):
podcast, and then I kind of, Iresponded and sent you some
talking points and, and I, whatI wanna do is just maybe model
for the audience.
Kind of the kind ofconversations that I might have
like that we've had before.
Mm-hmm.
About training.
And we're gonna do the horsestuff first, and then we might
dive into the psychology alittle bit.
(02:10):
And I guess like another thingthat I will add as far as my
training and credentials go isthat like.
In the therapy world.
So I have training and systemstheory, but I also have my
passion.
My, the place where I stay mostcurious and interested is in
union analytical psychology,depth psychology.
(02:33):
And then I am also in theprocess of training to become a
Ian Sand Play therapist, whichis kind of.
And this is all like within thepsychoanalytic tradition.
And then and then I'm alsotrained as a play therapist and
a play therapy supervisor.
And so we'll talk about play.
We're gonna, we're, that's kindof where I wanna get the
(02:55):
conversation to go.
So I'm gonna get myself cozy.
Okay.
So let's talk about, I think oneof the first things to talk
about is just like, why dohorses buck?
And if I'm gonna throw out likethree big main reasons why
horses, buck, they're gonna buckif they're afraid.
'cause it's a fight or flight.
(03:15):
It's a fight response.
Right?
They're afraid they're gonnabuck if they're in pain.
Mm-hmm.
Because the pain often triggersfear and then they're gonna buck
when they're playing.
These are very differentneurological states.
Same behavior, differentneuroscience.
(03:36):
And that's gonna inform like mytraining approach as we go into
the conversation a little bitmore.
And so I guess a little bit ofbackground for the listeners
too.
Like you alluded in the podcastto maybe a possible injury.
That this horse has in thecorrals before he got him.
Mm-hmm.
(03:56):
And, and so when I was workingwith him as a trainer, I did a
lot of rehab work in his backendto strengthen his hind end
because if you watch him, he is,very narrow behind.
So there's some confirmationalthings and he doesn't track up
(04:17):
at all in his hind end.
Mm-hmm.
He is improved withconditioning.
And also he bunny hops in thecanner.
So like, what that means is thatthere's not really a clear three
beat stride.
He tends to move his hind legstogether in a hop.
(04:38):
And so I pushed you.
To get him evaluated and makesure that there wasn't anything
like medically wrong with him.
Just to kind of get clear onlike, is this, is his movement
pattern, a pain response?
And so this is, there's somehistory.
(04:59):
This guy.
There is, he never can I, yeah.
Can I clarify there a littlebit?
Like, I, I do remember some ofthe exercises you had me do way
back when I was at the otherproperty.
When you were working.
Right, right.
Which was like backing himuphill.
Yeah.
And it seemed like there was aweakness in kind of on the
inside of a stifle that we wereparticularly working on.
(05:22):
Yes.
And then, and I did go ahead andhave the vet out here last
winter.
Yeah, and that was like afteryou sent me some videos of him
in the RAM pen and, and I wasjust like, he is not.
Even behind in his backend.
And he is, and he was able totrack up on one side, but not on
(05:42):
the other.
And not on the other as well.
Yeah.
He, he had some trouble, butwhen they said he was fine to
write, he passed a lamenessexam.
Yes.
And said, yes, I see a littlesomething here, but it doesn't
mean he can't be ridden.
And that was, that was theprofessional opinion.
And what you saw also, we saw animprovement because you had me
(06:03):
we were doing weaves.
Over poles.
Over logs.
Yes.
Yes.
Small logs, like six yes.
Logs.
And and that seemed tostrengthen him a little bit.
But yeah, so this is a, therewas still like a, every once in
a while that back rear end willstill get kind of tight.
Not nearly as bad as it used to,but his back glute will.
Be hard and if I do some massageand some release on it, it will,
(06:27):
it will soften up.
And I kept checking in while hewas down at the trainer saying,
are you seeing any problems?
Is there any mm-hmm.
You know, anything that wouldindicate, you know, muscle
soreness or, or stiff glutes or,or anything in his gait that
would suggest that he's in painor not quite right.
And she was like, oh, he's fine.
So that was her take on that.
(06:49):
Right.
Okay, so here we are.
We've done our due diligence andwe've like assessed the physical
domain, like we've assessed forpain, we've assessed the body.
Yes, there's something aboutthis horse that requires like
careful conditioning and andwith maintenance he does.
(07:11):
It's like he does come around.
And I'm remembering back too, tolike, when I was working with
him as a five-year-old this wasnot a horse that really showed a
lot of, like, he didn't buckmuch with me.
He was very forward, a littlebit more flighty.
Mm-hmm.
(07:31):
But he wasn't explosive.
When we did our initial saddlingif you got him moving forward,
he was fine.
And then I know I put the firstfew rides on him and got on his
back.
Well, no, maybe someone else hadbeen on him.
Yeah, other people had been onhim.
One other, one other person had,yeah, him.
And that was the woman I boughthim from who was a young, right.
(07:51):
Very young girl.
Like maybe 17 or 18.
And what she had told me is thathe had bolted Yes.
And that, and that story kind oflike matches, like my experience
of working with them is that Iwas more, he was more of a
flighty horse than a Buckyhorse.
(08:12):
And then, but I do remember likehe definitely as a tight backed
horse, and so when he getsnervous, he is prone to bracing.
Mm-hmm.
His body.
And Yeah.
Okay.
So there's some context there.
So some of the things that Iremember you talking about in
(08:37):
your podcast was that he startedbucking when you were going down
a hill.
Mm-hmm.
And so, in my mind, if I thinkabout like, the things that I
know that might cause that, I'mjust wondering like.
One, did the saddle slideforward and maybe pinch him or
touch him in a way that he hadnever experienced before.
(08:59):
And then maybe there waspressure on his body from the
saddle and the rider.
That was a new experience forhim.
Mm-hmm.
And in that new experience, didhe just panic?
Mm-hmm.
Then the other thing might beif, and I haven't seen him
recently, I don't know what hiscondition's like right now, but
given his history of being alittle weak in the hind end,
(09:20):
going down a hill is gonnarequire him to engage his hind
end deeper than on the flat oreven uphill.
Mm-hmm.
And so.
Is it possible that maybe likebiomechanically, his body was
being taxed in a way that hejust didn't feel confident in?
Yeah.
And, and then also like his lackof confidence maybe then turned
(09:45):
into a panic moment.
So those are like, if we'rethinking about like sympathetic
nervous system response answersto why horses, buck.
Like those are the two things Ican think of.
Both of those things makeperfect sense and could be
either or both of them very,very easily.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially the saddle thingbecause during the bucking the
(10:08):
pad came off.
Yeah.
He might be the kind of horsethen that could benefit from a
rear cinch.
Mm-hmm.
Just to help the saddle stay inplace so that, because what
happens is that like when we'regoing down a hill, like the
horse is tipped, if the saddleis tipping off the horse's back
and the back of the saddle'slifting, going down the hill.
(10:31):
Mm-hmm.
That's gonna twist the tree.
And then you're gonna get a lotof pressure on the weathers and
the shoulders.
And a rear cinch would keep theback of the file from lifting
up.
Yeah.
And we didn't, so we made sometack.
We made some definite tackerrors, you know, and I would,
yeah.
And not having the bit in wasone.
(10:53):
And she had noticed that thepad, we had that pad that you
had found.
For me it's, it's like asynthetic leather on the top
with the air holes in it.
Oh.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was like the Caval kindbin.
Yeah, Uhhuh.
And it was the first time we'dused that and she'd said, oh, I
think it's a little big, but wedidn't switch it out for the one
(11:16):
we'd used before, which was likemaybe, yeah.
Like too long for his back.
I don't know what her, she saidit feel, it seems too big, and
she didn't say too long, shesaid too big.
And so like I.
I, I don't know what that meant.
Well he is kind of a petitehorse, like, but he filled out
(11:37):
into fitting the saddle.
Right.
But he is, yeah, like a short Hedoes, he has a short back.
He definitely kind of back andhe has a lighter frame.
Yeah, true.
I mean, sissy is both a, I mean,she's not a way to frame, but
she's a short back too, right,right.
That we had used the pad and thesaddle for.
But you know, so there were somelike.
(11:59):
Like to check all the boxes ofthe tack and we had not put the
breast collar and the rear cinchon as we had before.
Yeah, and I'm wondering too,like if it could be too that
going, because I've had thishappen too, where like a saddle
pad will slip out the back of asaddle and that's a sign that
(12:20):
the saddle's not fitting as wellas you want it to.
I'm not saying the saddledoesn't fit, but going down the
hill, the fit changed.
Yes.
And, and when that saddle padstarts to scoot down their back
and then go over the top oftheir loins, like it does, kind
of like goose them a little bitsometimes if they haven't had
(12:40):
that happen.
And so it might be that justgoing down the hill, the saddle,
the pads started slipping.
The fit started changing, thingsstarted moving around and he was
just like, ah, I can't handleit.
Yeah, I yeah, I I think that'svery likely what happened.
And I, so I guess anotherquestion I have, I mean, you
(13:03):
have some talking points in anorder, and I'm sure you'll get
to it, but where to now, like,what do I do now?
Yeah.
Well, okay, well let's talkabout.
This is where I wanna like,bring in the element of play.
Okay.
And talk about my evolvingtraining philosophy and then and
how I'm growing my ability toarticulate these ideas and
(13:26):
translate them across fields.
And so let me back up and justshare a little bit about what my
therapeutic philosophy is.
Especially when I'm working withchildren, so I come from the
sand play tradition is very,very feminine It.
It's very feminine in itsapproach to things.
(13:48):
And I also have a lot oftraining in the humanistic play
therapy modality calledChild-Centered Play Therapy.
And Child-Centered Play Therapywas developed by a woman named.
Virginia Axel, and she was acolleague and a student of Carl
Rogers.
(14:08):
And a lot of people know CarlRogers.
He is like the founder of thehumanistic Person Centered
School of Psychology andTherapy.
And, and the person centeredhumanistic philosophy is this
idea that like in a therapeuticrelationship, yes I am.
I have training, I have adegree, but I'm not the expert
(14:30):
in the room.
The client's, the expert in theroom.
And, and that's kind of turningupside down and turning on the
head.
Like the typical attitude thatpeople have when they go into
the therapy process.
Like a lot of people show up fortherapy saying, I'm gonna go see
this therapist, they're thedoctor, they're gonna fix me.
(14:51):
And they submit to the therapistand I'm here to say, no, no, no.
I'm here to submit to you.
I'm here to maybe help you findthe answers within yourself,
because I believe they'realready inside you.
You just don't know it yet, oryou haven't found them, but I'll
help you look.
(15:12):
So that's like the hu that's theperson centered, like in a, in a
nutshell.
There's, you know, there's moreto it than that.
So the child centered therapymodel is that philosophy applied
to children?
There's Gary Landreth.
From, he is still alive.
He's in his nineties now andhe's still, he's mostly retired
(15:32):
from teaching, but he pops upevery once in a while and still
does workshops.
He's the one that kind ofdeveloped this into an
evidence-based model.
And now, so Child-Centered PlayTherapy is a therapy model that
is now an evidence-basedpractice for treating children
with trauma.
(15:54):
And so we're back to theconversation about insurance and
things like that.
It's, it checks all the boxes,and so I can practice that.
But my job in that model, andthis, this is also a philosophy
that shows up in the union,analytical and sand play world,
is my job in that model is tosimply show up as a present
(16:17):
person.
And hold what we call a free andprotected space for the client.
So my job is just to show up andto maintain the integrity of the
space and do as much as I can tocreate a permissive environment
for my client to self-express.
(16:40):
Yeah.
Now, if we think about classicaldressage.
As a practice of zero force, myjob is to show up in that
horse's life.
Mm-hmm.
And help them self express andtake away the barriers and open
(17:02):
doors.
And allow.
And allow and allow.
And so what that means is thatwhen I work with horses, I have
to be in a state of mind where.
I am ready and able to holdanything that horse wants to do,
and this is where play comes in.
(17:25):
So if we think of an adult horseor a horse that we're riding and
we think about a horse thatbolts or bucks or is doing this
big behaviors we don't like itand our impulse is often to shut
it down.
Right.
So I, I'm getting this visual ofa perfect example, I think of
what you're talking about.
(17:45):
And it is that day that we wereat your place and you were
writing Stormy.
Was it?
Was it Billy?
I think it was Billy.
Yeah.
You were the chest nightmare.
Yeah, the chest nightmare.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And, and you were, you wereexplaining to me how she got
triggered with the bit and youwere Western bit that was
(18:06):
different.
And so when she got triggered.
A former racehorse, you just lether run and I was able to film
it.
I don't know where the film isat somewhere.
I think I have it.
Copy somewhere.
I think you sent me one.
Yeah.
And then at the end you said,and I'm gonna stay on.
And I remember all her veinswere sticking out when you
finally came back and you said,I'm gonna stay on her until we
(18:28):
both co-regulate and then I'mgonna give her the biggest
reward and get off.
Yes.
So yeah, that's kind of whatyou're talking about, isn't it?
Yes.
I have to be ready to stay withit.
Yeah.
I have to be ready to be withthe horse no matter what.
And, and so here, here's like,something that I think might
(18:51):
make sense to listeners is like,I would, I think most of the
people listening to this podcastwould never stop a, a fo from
playing.
Right.
I, I wanna make a point in thatexample,'cause I didn't explain
it really well.
Is that okay?
Okay.
Yeah.
Going back to Billy, back toBilly.
What?
Yeah.
What you did When she gottriggered, she wanted to run.
(19:16):
And you, you just being theexcellent rider you are had no
problem staying on and lettingher ride out a quarter mile.
Like she did huge circles inyour pasture and she must have
covered about a quarter milebefore you came back and
stopped.
But not only did I let her run,I said, you wanna run?
(19:36):
Let's go.
Mm-hmm.
I said, you wanna run?
Let's go.
I'm running with you.
And, and this like, I think iswhat the wisdom of running a
horse in the round pen is.
It's not, I'm not chasing thehorse around until it's
exhausted.
(19:56):
I'm saying I'm following and I'msaying, okay, you wanna run, I'm
gonna run with you.
I'm gonna, you know, you'rerunning big circles on the
outside.
I'm walking little circles onthe inside, but I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
No matter what you think, nomatter what you feel, no matter
what you do, I'm with you.
And that right there is thetherapeutic principle that Carl
(20:18):
Rogers brought forward ofunconditional positive regard,
where I say I have positiveregard for you as a being no
matter what you do.
No matter what you say, nomatter what you feel, no matter
what you do, I'm with you.
Right, and that's what you toldme.
There was a moment in Charlie'straining where he was so anxious
(20:38):
in the ring and you said, didyou see that?
He just figured out that wecould stay heart to heart
connected while he's in abalanced rhythmic trot.
Yes.
I remember those moments.
Yeah.
And so that's, and it took a fewdays.
It did, you know, it took hours.
It took him time to learn that Iwas gonna be a consistent enough
(21:01):
presence in his life to be withhim no matter what.
I remember, I remember yousaying, did you see that moment?
And I did.
It was clear.
And that's exactly what you'retalking about, right?
Right.
These are both examples of whatyou're saying.
And so this is where like I havethe skill as a rider to get on a
horse and know that I can ridethrough the buck.
(21:23):
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And so I can, because I have theexperience in my body of knowing
what that energy is like, I canstay regulated in the intensity.
Right.
And, and this is where I thinkthe word regulated gets
(21:44):
misinterpreted because we thinkthat regulated means calm.
Mm-hmm.
But that's not true.
Regulated does not mean calm.
What does it mean?
It means that we're in ourparasympathetic nervous system.
Most people access theparasympathetic through calm,
(22:04):
low energy states, and this iswhere play comes in.
So play, mm-hmm.
Is a parasympathetic nervoussystem state, but it includes
the entire range of humanexperience and it's the place
that we practice the things weneed to survive.
So when a little full.
(22:25):
Is ripping around the pasture asfast as it can and it's kicking
its heels up and it's going andgoing and going and it's playing
and it's, you know, that is nota sympathetic nervous system
response.
That's a parasympathetic nervousof a system state with
intensity.
Hmm.
This is where things becomerelational.
So I'm gonna use examples fromthe therapeutic process in a
(22:47):
playroom.
So when I'm with children who'veexperienced trauma.
Go ahead.
May offer, may I offersomething?
Because as you're saying thatI'm trying to, I'm searching my
childhood for a memory.
Yeah, that fits that.
And what I'm coming up with isthe memory of the edge.
When as, as an only child, whenthere was play and, and I did
(23:11):
have some trauma that came outof play.
Yeah.
There was always this edge whereit got uncomfortable.
And then as a mother with my ownchildren, as things would
escalate in play, there'd be aplace where I started to get
really uncomfortable.
And I think that's the switch.
Like what I was experiencing wasgoing from parasympathetic.
(23:35):
To sympathetic.
Yes.
And, and really feeling thatedge, like as a highly
sensitive, autistic only child.
Yes.
Like I can re, I can rememberthose moments.
And so that's, that's whatyou're speaking to?
Yes.
Okay.
So, okay.
So maybe I'll take that.
You gave an example before Igave one, so, we'll, we'll build
(23:57):
on that.
So back to like, let's say goingback to the training sessions I
had with Charlie in the roundpen with him before I got on
him, we played with Intensity alot.
I.
And, and we use the idea of liketurning up the volume.
Turning down the volume.
And if we think about, likepeople sometimes talk about our
(24:19):
window of tolerance.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Play is all of the behaviorsthat we can tolerate in the high
highs and the low lows andeverything in between.
That is inside our window oftolerance.
Okay.
When I step into relationshipand we're co-regulating, my
window of tolerance is oftenbigger than the horses.
(24:43):
Mm-hmm.
Window of tolerance.
Can they borrow some of that?
Do they borrow?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And that's how we grow it, andthat's how it naturally grows in
relationship between people too.
So when I'm in the therapy roomwith the child, my job is just
to have a bigger window oftolerance than they do while
they explore.
(25:04):
All of these different states ofbeing, and sometimes that looks
like quietly coloring together.
Sometimes that looks likepulling out the play swords and
having a sword fight or a pillowfight.
And so everything is allowed inplay.
(25:26):
Everything is possible.
Everything is permissible.
Wow.
And I, that's an incredible,that's an incredible parenting
thing for people to know and torealize as well as horse
trainers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so much of our trainingmethods is about restricting and
(25:48):
controlling and shutting downbehavior.
And I do think that's maybe thedifference between the
performance world, like thepleasure world, things like
that, where the horses, like,again, we're going back to the
history of things where horseshad to look a certain way in
order to win the ribbon and earnthe check.
Mm-hmm.
(26:09):
And so they became very boxed inand restricted and, and that's
different than.
Some of the other schools wherelike, it's okay if the horse
makes mistakes and the horsemoves its body out of rhythm, or
maybe has like a big Buckycanner step or something like
that.
Because they have to do all ofit in order to find it.
(26:32):
And then we find ways that wecan do it together.
A lot of layers, a lot ofknowledge, a lot of being
present and knowing what you'reseeing and what you're working
with and where to go with it.
So yeah, so this is to say thatlike let's say hypothetically I
was the person on Charlie's backmm-hmm.
(26:53):
When he got Bucky.
Mm-hmm.
And like assuming that there'snot a tach mill function and I
can stay on him, like, I'm gonnago to my skills.
I'm gonna set some limits tomaintain safety and the
integrity of the relationship.
And that limit might be doing aone rain stop.
(27:15):
Mm-hmm.
And say, okay, keep your feet onthe ground right now while we
WEConnect and stay connected toone another.
And, and I might, you know, wecan set limits with other aids
too.
Like, I'm gonna put somepressure on his, you know, with,
with a leg.
I'm gonna maybe use my body andmy weight to counterbalance and,
and ride it out.
Then the moment that it chaosstops, we're gonna get back to
(27:40):
work so that we can find theplay again.
And I'm going to do what I haveto do.
To test, okay, what is yourwindow of tolerance right now
and what, what are the thingsthat we can do in the vocabulary
of all the things that wealready know how to do together
that create connection?
And that might be turningbending laterally, that might be
(28:05):
trotting him down the trail.
It might be, you know, whatever.
Whatever it is I'm gonna takewhatever energy he's giving me
and we're gonna work with it.
We're gonna just stay connected,stay connected, stay connected,
and I'm gonna do whatever I cando to match his energy because
there's something energeticallyabout the reason why I need to
(28:26):
be able to match his energy isthat that is my way of
non-verbally communicating toanother nervous system.
Mm-hmm.
That I'm with you.
So there's something thathappens in horse training that
is kind of like that, but Ithink it's something.
I think that's why it works, butI don't think the way it's often
executed and the philosophybehind it, like that's probably
(28:51):
why it works.
But I don't know that thephilosophy behind it is that
great.
And that's where in order tocontrol a horse, like in the
round pen mm-hmm.
A trainer becomes bigger thanthe horse, almost in a scary way
and then brings them down.
But that's different than whatyou're talking about, right?
Because play.
Play is keeping the horse insidetheir threshold, you know, so,
(29:15):
so we're, we're not flooding.
We're still inside thethreshold, but it still allows
for big energy when, when weneed big.
And it also allows for reallyquiet, calm energy, the whole
spectrum.
That's good to know.
I did not realize, I did notrealize this about play.
I think it's really, reallyimportant.
(29:37):
So.
At this point, it doesn't seemlike it's gonna hurt Charlie
necessarily to wait a littlewhile to see what hap I haven't
put a Saddleback on him.
Right.
What do you think about that?
I think that you do things atthe pace, you do them and you
(29:58):
have other ways of connectingwith him, and he's still your
horse.
Yeah, no, the next day he reallylet me know, like, I'm still
with you, you know?
Yeah.
Right.
I still trust you.
Yeah.
Right.
And lots of times they do.
The moment, the moment themoment is over, they're back to
connecting.
Yeah.
(30:18):
Very much connecting.
Okay.
So I had an animal communicator.
Yeah.
Check in with Charlie.
Yeah.
Okay.
And he said, he said a couplethings that are, that are pretty
interesting to me.
Okay.
Do you remember some things thatyou used to say when you first
were training him?
(30:39):
No, I, I'm not.
It's, it's been a few years.
Okay.
Okay.
So this is what I remembered.
Maybe if I say it, it'll jogyour memory that you were, you
would say to him or to me abouthim.
He has a very young brain.
Oh yes, he did.
Like, he was five, but he feltmore like working with the
three-year-old.
(31:00):
So he kept saying that to theanimal communicator.
I have a very young brain.
He's embraced that.
And finally, finally, she said,actually, you're nine years old.
You're a mature horse.
And, and had a conversation withhim about you're, you have
permission to grow up now.
(31:21):
I love it.
Oh my gosh.
And she kept saying, I feel likehe's five years old.
And I said, well, that's how oldhe was when Carissa was working
with him.
Oh, interesting.
Oh my gosh.
Isn't, isn't that fascinating?
So you'll have to watch, Ihaven't published it yet, but I
think you'll get a kick out ofoutta seeing the things that he
had to say and he kept sayingToo much, too fast.
(31:44):
I need breaks.
Yes.
And I remember you used to givehim some good break, big breaks.
He needs a lot of soaking time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like yeah.
He needs a lot of time tointegrate and process.
He talked about that too.
So just it's, it's just kind ofthrilling, you know?
(32:05):
I mean, when you get, get thehuman words, I mean, they
communicate a lot and weunderstand them, but it's just,
there's something charming aboutgetting, like the English
language translated from them.
Right.
It just validates what we knowhappened.
So yeah.
That was Oh, that is so sweet.
I, I see he still does, he doeshave like a really youthful
(32:25):
spirit about him still just inthe photographs that I've seen
of him recently and things like,it's still very much there.
Yeah.
And yeah, he's a sweetie.
Mm-hmm.
He's a real sweetie.
So what do you think about whatI was saying about like having
that memory chain open withthis.
Idea thing happening of, Ooh,that was, it was really heavy
(32:50):
for me, but I wasn't the oneriding him either.
But, but from my perspective,I'm having the same thing happen
in, in so many, like, so manyparallels of, well, I said this,
I said this and I said this.
I don't know.
I mean, in the other situation,I really didn't know what else
to do.
Yeah.
In this situation, I could havespoken up.
(33:12):
I could have taken charge more,but I chose to be in a place
where I've said what I need tosay, and this is, yeah, this is
not, this is this is outside ofmy lane.
Yeah.
And so back to like the me Yeah.
I mean, you're gonna bring thatenergy into whatever the field
like, and they're gonna pick upon it.
(33:34):
So, and, and, because.
Horses don't really filter.
Like whatever is going on isgoing on.
Mm-hmm.
It, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, all of us are doing thatall the time, which adds a
(33:55):
completely different layer thatI think most people aren't aware
of.
I could use some language fromthe psychology world.
In my supervision process Igave, I talked about this a
little bit in the other podcast,so I employ.
A lot of what we call parallelprocess in the, in my
(34:16):
supervision practice, and it'sworking with ideas of
transference and countertransference, and people might
know what that is a little bitfrom the psychology world.
So transference is when, okay,transference is the energy that
the client brings into the room.
(34:37):
And so transference is the, likethe unconscious stuff that then
gets projected onto thetherapist.
And so like the classic examplewould be like, oh, a client
comes in and they're mad at mebecause they're really mad at
their mother, you know?
(34:58):
So that's the transference.
The counter transference is thenmy emotional response that I
might unconsciously orinadvertently put back onto the
client.
And so for me, that might besomething like, I have a client
that is chronically late and I'mstarting to get a little
(35:18):
irritated because I feeldisrespected.
Mm-hmm.
But it's not about the client,it's, it's about what, what's
ever going on in my personalrelationships.
Mm-hmm.
So here we are now in the YianSchool.
We talk about a third process.
So the Freudian School talksabout transference, county
(35:41):
transference.
The Yian School talks about athird thing called the co
transference.
And the co transference is whenwe come together in relationship
and the clients or the horse.
Because Charlie had hisexperience, right?
Mm-hmm.
Too much too soon.
Mm-hmm.
Too much too soon.
And this mis like this idea.
(36:02):
I've got a young brain.
No, you don't.
You're nine.
But he is still working with theenergy of being young.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So he brings that into therelationship.
You bring your stuff into therelationship, and then the co
transfer is the alchemy.
That happens when those energiescome together and whatever the
(36:25):
trainer brought.
Right?
Exactly.
Right, right.
So parallel process is thenassuming that like whatever
energies are going on are gonnasomehow be reflected in whatever
meeting or, or like whateverencounter we have.
(36:47):
Hmm.
And, and I can see this in mysupervisees.
So like if they're talking abouta client, they're gonna take on
the energy of that client whenthey talk about that client.
And I can in, in the course ofone supervision hour, they might
talk about three differentclients and there'll be three
different energies in the room.
How many people do you thinkare.
(37:09):
I mean, I guess we're allresponding to those energies all
the time, but it's whether we'redoing it consciously or not.
Right.
Right.
What, do you have any idea, likewhat percentage of the
population is able to beconscious about that stuff?
I have absolutely no idea.
(37:30):
I, I think that we all arecapable of being conscious and
unconscious.
Like I have moments ofconsciousness and I have moments
of unconsciousness.
Yeah.
I guess all of this too.
Yeah.
Wow.
Lots of interesting pointsthere.
Yeah.
About getting off the horse.
(37:52):
Like a lot of times what I wastalking about is, part of the
story is the times that I got onhim twice.
Yeah.
After he came back from herplace and before she came back
and rode him again.
Mm-hmm.
Where he took me under the, hewas about to take me under a
tree and he wasn't responding tothe b.
Or my leg.
Mm-hmm.
And so I just jumped off.
(38:13):
Yeah.
And, and even with Cyps e whenshe was refusing, after I turned
several times and we were reallyhaving a heated discussion about
if we were gonna, you know, goaround this gate.
And finally I just, I mean,there was a trail enough around
the gate mm-hmm.
And I finally just got off andwalked her.
(38:35):
Yeah.
And a lot of people say.
You're teaching the horse thatyou're giving them a release
when they don't wanna do whatyou're asking them to do.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
I think, let's go back.
Okay.
Yeah, because I can see how youmight ask about that, we talked
(38:56):
about how with Billy, that horsewho wanted to run and run, like
when she finally.
Came back down and deescalatedand we were co-regulating again.
Then I got off, I took thesaddle off, but that was not to
release pressure, that was tocreate a new relational
(39:22):
experience.
This horse was dripping sweat.
Mm-hmm.
So I took the saddle off when Ibrushed her down.
Mm-hmm.
And I took care of her and Icontinued the connection.
And I tend to her body, and thisis where like in the high
performance world, like you staywith the horse until their
respiratory rates down and theirtemperature's down.
(39:45):
And you tend to them and tend tothem and tend to them, and you
don't leave them.
What about people when they'rehaving PTSD episodes, right.
Same.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonnacancel my next client and I'm
gonna stay with that clientuntil they're regulated.
(40:09):
And there's an art to kind oftiming and facilitating a
therapy session to make surethat the client is regulated by
the time they walk out your doorat the end of the hour.
But I have canceled clients sothat I can be with the person
that needs it most.
And not abandon them.
(40:32):
I am sure they really appreciatethat.
Like that, that I wish morepeople did that.
I don't know if it's a standardpractice, it matters, but yeah,
it matters.
It's, it's not, not standardpractice.
I don't like different peoplehave different perspectives on
things, but mm-hmm.
When you start getting intotrauma specialties, yes.
(40:54):
That's best practice.
But you've also told me I'mjumping around a little bit, but
I'm going back to getting offthe horse.
You've also told me many timesover the phone it's okay to get
off.
Like if that's what you need todo.
Right.
Because what I'm hearing thoughis in those moments, yeah, you
got off to, for some selfpreservation or to deescalate a
(41:15):
fight, and, but I'm not hearingthat you just like walked away
from your horse and threw'em ina stall and stormed off all mad
at them.
No, you stayed.
Yeah, you stayed with them.
Right.
So from the horse's perspective,you're still connected.
So it's not teaching Ifsomebody.
If somebody gets off during aperiod where they're trying to
(41:37):
teach their horse something andthe lesson isn't going well,
especially if you don't endthere, it's not a bad practice.
Right, right.
I think that's important forpeople to know that, because I
think that there's still someold myths about, you know,
what's okay to do and what's notokay to do.
And the more neuroscience andthe more relationship that we
(42:00):
understand what, what we'reforming, what we're doing with
horses, that some of those mythsreally need to shift.
Yeah.
And.
And this is again, like theresome of the myths that we have,
some of the practices that wehave in the horse world started
(42:21):
out with good intentions.
Mm-hmm.
And then got turned intosomething else.
And, and back to the idea oflike making a horse run in the
round pen.
So.
Chasing a horse around a roundpen until it submits is, I don't
(42:42):
think that's how it started.
I, I don't think that's how thepractice started.
That's not what was taught tome.
No.
I mean, I, I actually went tosee Monty Roberts was there, it
was his apprentices that weredoing the training.
Yeah, yeah.
But I, I saw it live when Ifirst, first got a horse and I.
(43:04):
It wasn't so much chasing, itwas a balanced grounded way in
the middle, and not like I'veseen some people do, but you
know, when you're new to all ofthat, the subtleties can easily
escape you.
Right?
And if you don't have.
This is again, like the, this iswhere having the benefit of
having a teacher and a mentorsupervise your work mm-hmm.
(43:26):
Is important because the, thementor, Mon Roberts was then
able to step in and help his,correct, his apprentices from
chasing the horse down.
But then what, you know, hepublished a book and people read
it, and then they applied themethod without supervision.
I mean, I have a video of myselfchasing Firefly, having no idea
what I'm doing.
(43:46):
Way too big, and she's workingso fast, I'm sure.
She's like, what are you doing?
That was one of the things thatI first like stepped in and and
corrected when we first startedworking together.
I'm like, why are you chasingyour horse?
You're scaring your horse.
Like, why are you trying toscare your horse and you are
(44:07):
humble enough to listen andthat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I really appreciate allyour input and yeah.
Taking the time to do anotherpodcast.
I love it when we get to talkwith you.
Well, thanks for having me on.
I'm curious to see who elseresponds to your invite to talk
(44:29):
about this and hear otherpeople's take on, yeah, on what
happened this is a great series.
It's been really good to learnfrom the experience to think
about it.
And, you know, I'm so sorry thatshe got hurt.
I really am yeah.
(44:50):
She seems pretty humble about itthough, and, and pretty grounded
in okay.
Thanks Carissa.
You have a good night.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection.
I have Carissa Schmidt with metoday to comment on the YouTube
and podcast that I did aboutCharlie Bucks.
And a little bit of backgroundis that Carissa had worked with
Charlie when he was five.
(00:21):
Four.
Several months and got him to aplace where she was able to get
on and taught me a little bitmore about training in the
process.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm anxious to hear all thethings that you have to say.
Oh.
So wanna remind people thatKrisa is a clinical supervisor
and a Help me out therapist.
(00:43):
So I have a LPC, so I have amaster's in clinical mental
health counseling, and then I,my license is as a licensed
professional counselor inOregon, and then I'm.
Credentialed to supervise LPCsand MFT, which are marriage and
family therapists as well in thestate of Oregon.
(01:04):
So, okay.
So because they're the, thestory as I told it on the
podcast has some elements of mytreatment in EMDR possibly
affecting, some of my realityon, on that particular day too.
So you're very well qualified tocomment on the entire thing as a
(01:25):
horse trainer, as a therapist,the whole thing.
Okay.
I think I'm gonna start withinthe scope of the horse trainer
first and just like, mm-hmm.
So I listened to your podcast.
You had told me a little bitabout what was going on first,
and then we tried to connect andtalk and the scheduling didn't
work.
So I got the story for the firsttime from you through the
(01:48):
podcast, and then I kind of, Iresponded and sent you some
talking points and, and I, whatI wanna do is just maybe model
for the audience.
Kind of the kind ofconversations that I might have
like that we've had before.
Mm-hmm.
About training.
And we're gonna do the horsestuff first, and then we might
dive into the psychology alittle bit.
(02:10):
And I guess like another thingthat I will add as far as my
training and credentials go isthat like.
In the therapy world.
So I have training and systemstheory, but I also have my
passion.
My, the place where I stay mostcurious and interested is in
union analytical psychology,depth psychology.
(02:33):
And then I am also in theprocess of training to become a
Ian Sand Play therapist, whichis kind of.
And this is all like within thepsychoanalytic tradition.
And then and then I'm alsotrained as a play therapist and
a play therapy supervisor.
And so we'll talk about play.
We're gonna, we're, that's kindof where I wanna get the
(02:55):
conversation to go.
So I'm gonna get myself cozy.
Okay.
So let's talk about, I think oneof the first things to talk
about is just like, why dohorses buck?
And if I'm gonna throw out likethree big main reasons why
horses, buck, they're gonna buckif they're afraid.
'cause it's a fight or flight.
(03:15):
It's a fight response.
Right?
They're afraid they're gonnabuck if they're in pain.
Mm-hmm.
Because the pain often triggersfear and then they're gonna buck
when they're playing.
These are very differentneurological states.
Same behavior, differentneuroscience.
(03:36):
And that's gonna inform like mytraining approach as we go into
the conversation a little bitmore.
And so I guess a little bit ofbackground for the listeners
too.
Like you alluded in the podcastto maybe a possible injury.
That this horse has in thecorrals before he got him.
Mm-hmm.
(03:56):
And, and so when I was workingwith him as a trainer, I did a
lot of rehab work in his backendto strengthen his hind end
because if you watch him, he is,very narrow behind.
So there's some confirmationalthings and he doesn't track up
(04:17):
at all in his hind end.
Mm-hmm.
He is improved withconditioning.
And also he bunny hops in thecanner.
So like, what that means is thatthere's not really a clear three
beat stride.
He tends to move his hind legstogether in a hop.
(04:38):
And so I pushed you.
To get him evaluated and makesure that there wasn't anything
like medically wrong with him.
Just to kind of get clear onlike, is this, is his movement
pattern, a pain response?
And so this is, there's somehistory.
(04:59):
This guy.
There is, he never can I, yeah.
Can I clarify there a littlebit?
Like, I, I do remember some ofthe exercises you had me do way
back when I was at the otherproperty.
When you were working.
Right, right.
Which was like backing himuphill.
Yeah.
And it seemed like there was aweakness in kind of on the
inside of a stifle that we wereparticularly working on.
(05:22):
Yes.
And then, and I did go ahead andhave the vet out here last
winter.
Yeah, and that was like afteryou sent me some videos of him
in the RAM pen and, and I wasjust like, he is not.
Even behind in his backend.
And he is, and he was able totrack up on one side, but not on
(05:42):
the other.
And not on the other as well.
Yeah.
He, he had some trouble, butwhen they said he was fine to
write, he passed a lamenessexam.
Yes.
And said, yes, I see a littlesomething here, but it doesn't
mean he can't be ridden.
And that was, that was theprofessional opinion.
And what you saw also, we saw animprovement because you had me
(06:03):
we were doing weaves.
Over poles.
Over logs.
Yes.
Yes.
Small logs, like six yes.
Logs.
And and that seemed tostrengthen him a little bit.
But yeah, so this is a, therewas still like a, every once in
a while that back rear end willstill get kind of tight.
Not nearly as bad as it used to,but his back glute will.
Be hard and if I do some massageand some release on it, it will,
(06:27):
it will soften up.
And I kept checking in while hewas down at the trainer saying,
are you seeing any problems?
Is there any mm-hmm.
You know, anything that wouldindicate, you know, muscle
soreness or, or stiff glutes or,or anything in his gait that
would suggest that he's in painor not quite right.
And she was like, oh, he's fine.
So that was her take on that.
(06:49):
Right.
Okay, so here we are.
We've done our due diligence andwe've like assessed the physical
domain, like we've assessed forpain, we've assessed the body.
Yes, there's something aboutthis horse that requires like
careful conditioning and andwith maintenance he does.
(07:11):
It's like he does come around.
And I'm remembering back too, tolike, when I was working with
him as a five-year-old this wasnot a horse that really showed a
lot of, like, he didn't buckmuch with me.
He was very forward, a littlebit more flighty.
Mm-hmm.
(07:31):
But he wasn't explosive.
When we did our initial saddlingif you got him moving forward,
he was fine.
And then I know I put the firstfew rides on him and got on his
back.
Well, no, maybe someone else hadbeen on him.
Yeah, other people had been onhim.
One other, one other person had,yeah, him.
And that was the woman I boughthim from who was a young, right.
(07:51):
Very young girl.
Like maybe 17 or 18.
And what she had told me is thathe had bolted Yes.
And that, and that story kind oflike matches, like my experience
of working with them is that Iwas more, he was more of a
flighty horse than a Buckyhorse.
(08:12):
And then, but I do remember likehe definitely as a tight backed
horse, and so when he getsnervous, he is prone to bracing.
Mm-hmm.
His body.
And Yeah.
Okay.
So there's some context there.
So some of the things that Iremember you talking about in
(08:37):
your podcast was that he startedbucking when you were going down
a hill.
Mm-hmm.
And so, in my mind, if I thinkabout like, the things that I
know that might cause that, I'mjust wondering like.
One, did the saddle slideforward and maybe pinch him or
touch him in a way that he hadnever experienced before.
(08:59):
And then maybe there waspressure on his body from the
saddle and the rider.
That was a new experience forhim.
Mm-hmm.
And in that new experience, didhe just panic?
Mm-hmm.
Then the other thing might beif, and I haven't seen him
recently, I don't know what hiscondition's like right now, but
given his history of being alittle weak in the hind end,
(09:20):
going down a hill is gonnarequire him to engage his hind
end deeper than on the flat oreven uphill.
Mm-hmm.
And so.
Is it possible that maybe likebiomechanically, his body was
being taxed in a way that hejust didn't feel confident in?
Yeah.
And, and then also like his lackof confidence maybe then turned
(09:45):
into a panic moment.
So those are like, if we'rethinking about like sympathetic
nervous system response answersto why horses, buck.
Like those are the two things Ican think of.
Both of those things makeperfect sense and could be
either or both of them very,very easily.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Especially the saddle thingbecause during the bucking the
(10:08):
pad came off.
Yeah.
He might be the kind of horsethen that could benefit from a
rear cinch.
Mm-hmm.
Just to help the saddle stay inplace so that, because what
happens is that like when we'regoing down a hill, like the
horse is tipped, if the saddleis tipping off the horse's back
and the back of the saddle'slifting, going down the hill.
(10:31):
Mm-hmm.
That's gonna twist the tree.
And then you're gonna get a lotof pressure on the weathers and
the shoulders.
And a rear cinch would keep theback of the file from lifting
up.
Yeah.
And we didn't, so we made sometack.
We made some definite tackerrors, you know, and I would,
yeah.
And not having the bit in wasone.
(10:53):
And she had noticed that thepad, we had that pad that you
had found.
For me it's, it's like asynthetic leather on the top
with the air holes in it.
Oh.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was like the Caval kindbin.
Yeah, Uhhuh.
And it was the first time we'dused that and she'd said, oh, I
think it's a little big, but wedidn't switch it out for the one
(11:16):
we'd used before, which was likemaybe, yeah.
Like too long for his back.
I don't know what her, she saidit feel, it seems too big, and
she didn't say too long, shesaid too big.
And so like I.
I, I don't know what that meant.
Well he is kind of a petitehorse, like, but he filled out
(11:37):
into fitting the saddle.
Right.
But he is, yeah, like a short Hedoes, he has a short back.
He definitely kind of back andhe has a lighter frame.
Yeah, true.
I mean, sissy is both a, I mean,she's not a way to frame, but
she's a short back too, right,right.
That we had used the pad and thesaddle for.
But you know, so there were somelike.
(11:59):
Like to check all the boxes ofthe tack and we had not put the
breast collar and the rear cinchon as we had before.
Yeah, and I'm wondering too,like if it could be too that
going, because I've had thishappen too, where like a saddle
pad will slip out the back of asaddle and that's a sign that
(12:20):
the saddle's not fitting as wellas you want it to.
I'm not saying the saddledoesn't fit, but going down the
hill, the fit changed.
Yes.
And, and when that saddle padstarts to scoot down their back
and then go over the top oftheir loins, like it does, kind
of like goose them a little bitsometimes if they haven't had
(12:40):
that happen.
And so it might be that justgoing down the hill, the saddle,
the pads started slipping.
The fit started changing, thingsstarted moving around and he was
just like, ah, I can't handleit.
Yeah, I yeah, I I think that'svery likely what happened.
And I, so I guess anotherquestion I have, I mean, you
(13:03):
have some talking points in anorder, and I'm sure you'll get
to it, but where to now, like,what do I do now?
Yeah.
Well, okay, well let's talkabout.
This is where I wanna like,bring in the element of play.
Okay.
And talk about my evolvingtraining philosophy and then and
how I'm growing my ability toarticulate these ideas and
(13:26):
translate them across fields.
And so let me back up and justshare a little bit about what my
therapeutic philosophy is.
Especially when I'm working withchildren, so I come from the
sand play tradition is very,very feminine It.
It's very feminine in itsapproach to things.
(13:48):
And I also have a lot oftraining in the humanistic play
therapy modality calledChild-Centered Play Therapy.
And Child-Centered Play Therapywas developed by a woman named.
Virginia Axel, and she was acolleague and a student of Carl
Rogers.
(14:08):
And a lot of people know CarlRogers.
He is like the founder of thehumanistic Person Centered
School of Psychology andTherapy.
And, and the person centeredhumanistic philosophy is this
idea that like in a therapeuticrelationship, yes I am.
I have training, I have adegree, but I'm not the expert
(14:30):
in the room.
The client's, the expert in theroom.
And, and that's kind of turningupside down and turning on the
head.
Like the typical attitude thatpeople have when they go into
the therapy process.
Like a lot of people show up fortherapy saying, I'm gonna go see
this therapist, they're thedoctor, they're gonna fix me.
(14:51):
And they submit to the therapistand I'm here to say, no, no, no.
I'm here to submit to you.
I'm here to maybe help you findthe answers within yourself,
because I believe they'realready inside you.
You just don't know it yet, oryou haven't found them, but I'll
help you look.
(15:12):
So that's like the hu that's theperson centered, like in a, in a
nutshell.
There's, you know, there's moreto it than that.
So the child centered therapymodel is that philosophy applied
to children?
There's Gary Landreth.
From, he is still alive.
He's in his nineties now andhe's still, he's mostly retired
(15:32):
from teaching, but he pops upevery once in a while and still
does workshops.
He's the one that kind ofdeveloped this into an
evidence-based model.
And now, so Child-Centered PlayTherapy is a therapy model that
is now an evidence-basedpractice for treating children
with trauma.
(15:54):
And so we're back to theconversation about insurance and
things like that.
It's, it checks all the boxes,and so I can practice that.
But my job in that model, andthis, this is also a philosophy
that shows up in the union,analytical and sand play world,
is my job in that model is tosimply show up as a present
(16:17):
person.
And hold what we call a free andprotected space for the client.
So my job is just to show up andto maintain the integrity of the
space and do as much as I can tocreate a permissive environment
for my client to self-express.
(16:40):
Yeah.
Now, if we think about classicaldressage.
As a practice of zero force, myjob is to show up in that
horse's life.
Mm-hmm.
And help them self express andtake away the barriers and open
(17:02):
doors.
And allow.
And allow and allow.
And so what that means is thatwhen I work with horses, I have
to be in a state of mind where.
I am ready and able to holdanything that horse wants to do,
and this is where play comes in.
(17:25):
So if we think of an adult horseor a horse that we're riding and
we think about a horse thatbolts or bucks or is doing this
big behaviors we don't like itand our impulse is often to shut
it down.
Right.
So I, I'm getting this visual ofa perfect example, I think of
what you're talking about.
(17:45):
And it is that day that we wereat your place and you were
writing Stormy.
Was it?
Was it Billy?
I think it was Billy.
Yeah.
You were the chest nightmare.
Yeah, the chest nightmare.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And, and you were, you wereexplaining to me how she got
triggered with the bit and youwere Western bit that was
(18:06):
different.
And so when she got triggered.
A former racehorse, you just lether run and I was able to film
it.
I don't know where the film isat somewhere.
I think I have it.
Copy somewhere.
I think you sent me one.
Yeah.
And then at the end you said,and I'm gonna stay on.
And I remember all her veinswere sticking out when you
finally came back and you said,I'm gonna stay on her until we
(18:28):
both co-regulate and then I'mgonna give her the biggest
reward and get off.
Yes.
So yeah, that's kind of whatyou're talking about, isn't it?
Yes.
I have to be ready to stay withit.
Yeah.
I have to be ready to be withthe horse no matter what.
And, and so here, here's like,something that I think might
(18:51):
make sense to listeners is like,I would, I think most of the
people listening to this podcastwould never stop a, a fo from
playing.
Right.
I, I wanna make a point in thatexample,'cause I didn't explain
it really well.
Is that okay?
Okay.
Yeah.
Going back to Billy, back toBilly.
What?
Yeah.
What you did When she gottriggered, she wanted to run.
(19:16):
And you, you just being theexcellent rider you are had no
problem staying on and lettingher ride out a quarter mile.
Like she did huge circles inyour pasture and she must have
covered about a quarter milebefore you came back and
stopped.
But not only did I let her run,I said, you wanna run?
(19:36):
Let's go.
Mm-hmm.
I said, you wanna run?
Let's go.
I'm running with you.
And, and this like, I think iswhat the wisdom of running a
horse in the round pen is.
It's not, I'm not chasing thehorse around until it's
exhausted.
(19:56):
I'm saying I'm following and I'msaying, okay, you wanna run, I'm
gonna run with you.
I'm gonna, you know, you'rerunning big circles on the
outside.
I'm walking little circles onthe inside, but I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
No matter what you think, nomatter what you feel, no matter
what you do, I'm with you.
And that right there is thetherapeutic principle that Carl
(20:18):
Rogers brought forward ofunconditional positive regard,
where I say I have positiveregard for you as a being no
matter what you do.
No matter what you say, nomatter what you feel, no matter
what you do, I'm with you.
Right, and that's what you toldme.
There was a moment in Charlie'straining where he was so anxious
(20:38):
in the ring and you said, didyou see that?
He just figured out that wecould stay heart to heart
connected while he's in abalanced rhythmic trot.
Yes.
I remember those moments.
Yeah.
And so that's, and it took a fewdays.
It did, you know, it took hours.
It took him time to learn that Iwas gonna be a consistent enough
(21:01):
presence in his life to be withhim no matter what.
I remember, I remember yousaying, did you see that moment?
And I did.
It was clear.
And that's exactly what you'retalking about, right?
Right.
These are both examples of whatyou're saying.
And so this is where like I havethe skill as a rider to get on a
horse and know that I can ridethrough the buck.
(21:23):
Mm-hmm.
You know?
And so I can, because I have theexperience in my body of knowing
what that energy is like, I canstay regulated in the intensity.
Right.
And, and this is where I thinkthe word regulated gets
(21:44):
misinterpreted because we thinkthat regulated means calm.
Mm-hmm.
But that's not true.
Regulated does not mean calm.
What does it mean?
It means that we're in ourparasympathetic nervous system.
Most people access theparasympathetic through calm,
(22:04):
low energy states, and this iswhere play comes in.
So play, mm-hmm.
Is a parasympathetic nervoussystem state, but it includes
the entire range of humanexperience and it's the place
that we practice the things weneed to survive.
So when a little full.
(22:25):
Is ripping around the pasture asfast as it can and it's kicking
its heels up and it's going andgoing and going and it's playing
and it's, you know, that is nota sympathetic nervous system
response.
That's a parasympathetic nervousof a system state with
intensity.
Hmm.
This is where things becomerelational.
So I'm gonna use examples fromthe therapeutic process in a
(22:47):
playroom.
So when I'm with children who'veexperienced trauma.
Go ahead.
May offer, may I offersomething?
Because as you're saying thatI'm trying to, I'm searching my
childhood for a memory.
Yeah, that fits that.
And what I'm coming up with isthe memory of the edge.
When as, as an only child, whenthere was play and, and I did
(23:11):
have some trauma that came outof play.
Yeah.
There was always this edge whereit got uncomfortable.
And then as a mother with my ownchildren, as things would
escalate in play, there'd be aplace where I started to get
really uncomfortable.
And I think that's the switch.
Like what I was experiencing wasgoing from parasympathetic.
(23:35):
To sympathetic.
Yes.
And, and really feeling thatedge, like as a highly
sensitive, autistic only child.
Yes.
Like I can re, I can rememberthose moments.
And so that's, that's whatyou're speaking to?
Yes.
Okay.
So, okay.
So maybe I'll take that.
You gave an example before Igave one, so, we'll, we'll build
(23:57):
on that.
So back to like, let's say goingback to the training sessions I
had with Charlie in the roundpen with him before I got on
him, we played with Intensity alot.
I.
And, and we use the idea of liketurning up the volume.
Turning down the volume.
And if we think about, likepeople sometimes talk about our
(24:19):
window of tolerance.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Play is all of the behaviorsthat we can tolerate in the high
highs and the low lows andeverything in between.
That is inside our window oftolerance.
Okay.
When I step into relationshipand we're co-regulating, my
window of tolerance is oftenbigger than the horses.
(24:43):
Mm-hmm.
Window of tolerance.
Can they borrow some of that?
Do they borrow?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
And that's how we grow it, andthat's how it naturally grows in
relationship between people too.
So when I'm in the therapy roomwith the child, my job is just
to have a bigger window oftolerance than they do while
they explore.
(25:04):
All of these different states ofbeing, and sometimes that looks
like quietly coloring together.
Sometimes that looks likepulling out the play swords and
having a sword fight or a pillowfight.
And so everything is allowed inplay.
(25:26):
Everything is possible.
Everything is permissible.
Wow.
And I, that's an incredible,that's an incredible parenting
thing for people to know and torealize as well as horse
trainers.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so much of our trainingmethods is about restricting and
(25:48):
controlling and shutting downbehavior.
And I do think that's maybe thedifference between the
performance world, like thepleasure world, things like
that, where the horses, like,again, we're going back to the
history of things where horseshad to look a certain way in
order to win the ribbon and earnthe check.
Mm-hmm.
(26:09):
And so they became very boxed inand restricted and, and that's
different than.
Some of the other schools wherelike, it's okay if the horse
makes mistakes and the horsemoves its body out of rhythm, or
maybe has like a big Buckycanner step or something like
that.
Because they have to do all ofit in order to find it.
(26:32):
And then we find ways that wecan do it together.
A lot of layers, a lot ofknowledge, a lot of being
present and knowing what you'reseeing and what you're working
with and where to go with it.
So yeah, so this is to say thatlike let's say hypothetically I
was the person on Charlie's backmm-hmm.
(26:53):
When he got Bucky.
Mm-hmm.
And like assuming that there'snot a tach mill function and I
can stay on him, like, I'm gonnago to my skills.
I'm gonna set some limits tomaintain safety and the
integrity of the relationship.
And that limit might be doing aone rain stop.
(27:15):
Mm-hmm.
And say, okay, keep your feet onthe ground right now while we
WEConnect and stay connected toone another.
And, and I might, you know, wecan set limits with other aids
too.
Like, I'm gonna put somepressure on his, you know, with,
with a leg.
I'm gonna maybe use my body andmy weight to counterbalance and,
and ride it out.
Then the moment that it chaosstops, we're gonna get back to
(27:40):
work so that we can find theplay again.
And I'm going to do what I haveto do.
To test, okay, what is yourwindow of tolerance right now
and what, what are the thingsthat we can do in the vocabulary
of all the things that wealready know how to do together
that create connection?
And that might be turningbending laterally, that might be
(28:05):
trotting him down the trail.
It might be, you know, whatever.
Whatever it is I'm gonna takewhatever energy he's giving me
and we're gonna work with it.
We're gonna just stay connected,stay connected, stay connected,
and I'm gonna do whatever I cando to match his energy because
there's something energeticallyabout the reason why I need to
(28:26):
be able to match his energy isthat that is my way of
non-verbally communicating toanother nervous system.
Mm-hmm.
That I'm with you.
So there's something thathappens in horse training that
is kind of like that, but Ithink it's something.
I think that's why it works, butI don't think the way it's often
executed and the philosophybehind it, like that's probably
(28:51):
why it works.
But I don't know that thephilosophy behind it is that
great.
And that's where in order tocontrol a horse, like in the
round pen mm-hmm.
A trainer becomes bigger thanthe horse, almost in a scary way
and then brings them down.
But that's different than whatyou're talking about, right?
Because play.
Play is keeping the horse insidetheir threshold, you know, so,
(29:15):
so we're, we're not flooding.
We're still inside thethreshold, but it still allows
for big energy when, when weneed big.
And it also allows for reallyquiet, calm energy, the whole
spectrum.
That's good to know.
I did not realize, I did notrealize this about play.
I think it's really, reallyimportant.
(29:37):
So.
At this point, it doesn't seemlike it's gonna hurt Charlie
necessarily to wait a littlewhile to see what hap I haven't
put a Saddleback on him.
Right.
What do you think about that?
I think that you do things atthe pace, you do them and you
(29:58):
have other ways of connectingwith him, and he's still your
horse.
Yeah, no, the next day he reallylet me know, like, I'm still
with you, you know?
Yeah.
Right.
I still trust you.
Yeah.
Right.
And lots of times they do.
The moment, the moment themoment is over, they're back to
connecting.
Yeah.
(30:18):
Very much connecting.
Okay.
So I had an animal communicator.
Yeah.
Check in with Charlie.
Yeah.
Okay.
And he said, he said a couplethings that are, that are pretty
interesting to me.
Okay.
Do you remember some things thatyou used to say when you first
were training him?
(30:39):
No, I, I'm not.
It's, it's been a few years.
Okay.
Okay.
So this is what I remembered.
Maybe if I say it, it'll jogyour memory that you were, you
would say to him or to me abouthim.
He has a very young brain.
Oh yes, he did.
Like, he was five, but he feltmore like working with the
three-year-old.
(31:00):
So he kept saying that to theanimal communicator.
I have a very young brain.
He's embraced that.
And finally, finally, she said,actually, you're nine years old.
You're a mature horse.
And, and had a conversation withhim about you're, you have
permission to grow up now.
(31:21):
I love it.
Oh my gosh.
And she kept saying, I feel likehe's five years old.
And I said, well, that's how oldhe was when Carissa was working
with him.
Oh, interesting.
Oh my gosh.
Isn't, isn't that fascinating?
So you'll have to watch, Ihaven't published it yet, but I
think you'll get a kick out ofoutta seeing the things that he
had to say and he kept sayingToo much, too fast.
(31:44):
I need breaks.
Yes.
And I remember you used to givehim some good break, big breaks.
He needs a lot of soaking time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like yeah.
He needs a lot of time tointegrate and process.
He talked about that too.
So just it's, it's just kind ofthrilling, you know?
(32:05):
I mean, when you get, get thehuman words, I mean, they
communicate a lot and weunderstand them, but it's just,
there's something charming aboutgetting, like the English
language translated from them.
Right.
It just validates what we knowhappened.
So yeah.
That was Oh, that is so sweet.
I, I see he still does, he doeshave like a really youthful
(32:25):
spirit about him still just inthe photographs that I've seen
of him recently and things like,it's still very much there.
Yeah.
And yeah, he's a sweetie.
Mm-hmm.
He's a real sweetie.
So what do you think about whatI was saying about like having
that memory chain open withthis.
Idea thing happening of, Ooh,that was, it was really heavy
(32:50):
for me, but I wasn't the oneriding him either.
But, but from my perspective,I'm having the same thing happen
in, in so many, like, so manyparallels of, well, I said this,
I said this and I said this.
I don't know.
I mean, in the other situation,I really didn't know what else
to do.
Yeah.
In this situation, I could havespoken up.
(33:12):
I could have taken charge more,but I chose to be in a place
where I've said what I need tosay, and this is, yeah, this is
not, this is this is outside ofmy lane.
Yeah.
And so back to like the me Yeah.
I mean, you're gonna bring thatenergy into whatever the field
like, and they're gonna pick upon it.
(33:34):
So, and, and, because.
Horses don't really filter.
Like whatever is going on isgoing on.
Mm-hmm.
It, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, all of us are doing thatall the time, which adds a
(33:55):
completely different layer thatI think most people aren't aware
of.
I could use some language fromthe psychology world.
In my supervision process Igave, I talked about this a
little bit in the other podcast,so I employ.
A lot of what we call parallelprocess in the, in my
(34:16):
supervision practice, and it'sworking with ideas of
transference and countertransference, and people might
know what that is a little bitfrom the psychology world.
So transference is when, okay,transference is the energy that
the client brings into the room.
(34:37):
And so transference is the, likethe unconscious stuff that then
gets projected onto thetherapist.
And so like the classic examplewould be like, oh, a client
comes in and they're mad at mebecause they're really mad at
their mother, you know?
(34:58):
So that's the transference.
The counter transference is thenmy emotional response that I
might unconsciously orinadvertently put back onto the
client.
And so for me, that might besomething like, I have a client
that is chronically late and I'mstarting to get a little
(35:18):
irritated because I feeldisrespected.
Mm-hmm.
But it's not about the client,it's, it's about what, what's
ever going on in my personalrelationships.
Mm-hmm.
So here we are now in the YianSchool.
We talk about a third process.
So the Freudian School talksabout transference, county
(35:41):
transference.
The Yian School talks about athird thing called the co
transference.
And the co transference is whenwe come together in relationship
and the clients or the horse.
Because Charlie had hisexperience, right?
Mm-hmm.
Too much too soon.
Mm-hmm.
Too much too soon.
And this mis like this idea.
(36:02):
I've got a young brain.
No, you don't.
You're nine.
But he is still working with theenergy of being young.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So he brings that into therelationship.
You bring your stuff into therelationship, and then the co
transfer is the alchemy.
That happens when those energiescome together and whatever the
(36:25):
trainer brought.
Right?
Exactly.
Right, right.
So parallel process is thenassuming that like whatever
energies are going on are gonnasomehow be reflected in whatever
meeting or, or like whateverencounter we have.
(36:47):
Hmm.
And, and I can see this in mysupervisees.
So like if they're talking abouta client, they're gonna take on
the energy of that client whenthey talk about that client.
And I can in, in the course ofone supervision hour, they might
talk about three differentclients and there'll be three
different energies in the room.
How many people do you thinkare.
(37:09):
I mean, I guess we're allresponding to those energies all
the time, but it's whether we'redoing it consciously or not.
Right.
Right.
What, do you have any idea, likewhat percentage of the
population is able to beconscious about that stuff?
I have absolutely no idea.
(37:30):
I, I think that we all arecapable of being conscious and
unconscious.
Like I have moments ofconsciousness and I have moments
of unconsciousness.
Yeah.
I guess all of this too.
Yeah.
Wow.
Lots of interesting pointsthere.
Yeah.
About getting off the horse.
(37:52):
Like a lot of times what I wastalking about is, part of the
story is the times that I got onhim twice.
Yeah.
After he came back from herplace and before she came back
and rode him again.
Mm-hmm.
Where he took me under the, hewas about to take me under a
tree and he wasn't responding tothe b.
Or my leg.
Mm-hmm.
And so I just jumped off.
(38:13):
Yeah.
And, and even with Cyps e whenshe was refusing, after I turned
several times and we were reallyhaving a heated discussion about
if we were gonna, you know, goaround this gate.
And finally I just, I mean,there was a trail enough around
the gate mm-hmm.
And I finally just got off andwalked her.
(38:35):
Yeah.
And a lot of people say.
You're teaching the horse thatyou're giving them a release
when they don't wanna do whatyou're asking them to do.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
I think, let's go back.
Okay.
Yeah, because I can see how youmight ask about that, we talked
(38:56):
about how with Billy, that horsewho wanted to run and run, like
when she finally.
Came back down and deescalatedand we were co-regulating again.
Then I got off, I took thesaddle off, but that was not to
release pressure, that was tocreate a new relational
(39:22):
experience.
This horse was dripping sweat.
Mm-hmm.
So I took the saddle off when Ibrushed her down.
Mm-hmm.
And I took care of her and Icontinued the connection.
And I tend to her body, and thisis where like in the high
performance world, like you staywith the horse until their
respiratory rates down and theirtemperature's down.
(39:45):
And you tend to them and tend tothem and tend to them, and you
don't leave them.
What about people when they'rehaving PTSD episodes, right.
Same.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonnacancel my next client and I'm
gonna stay with that clientuntil they're regulated.
(40:09):
And there's an art to kind oftiming and facilitating a
therapy session to make surethat the client is regulated by
the time they walk out your doorat the end of the hour.
But I have canceled clients sothat I can be with the person
that needs it most.
And not abandon them.
(40:32):
I am sure they really appreciatethat.
Like that, that I wish morepeople did that.
I don't know if it's a standardpractice, it matters, but yeah,
it matters.
It's, it's not, not standardpractice.
I don't like different peoplehave different perspectives on
things, but mm-hmm.
When you start getting intotrauma specialties, yes.
(40:54):
That's best practice.
But you've also told me I'mjumping around a little bit, but
I'm going back to getting offthe horse.
You've also told me many timesover the phone it's okay to get
off.
Like if that's what you need todo.
Right.
Because what I'm hearing thoughis in those moments, yeah, you
got off to, for some selfpreservation or to deescalate a
(41:15):
fight, and, but I'm not hearingthat you just like walked away
from your horse and threw'em ina stall and stormed off all mad
at them.
No, you stayed.
Yeah, you stayed with them.
Right.
So from the horse's perspective,you're still connected.
So it's not teaching Ifsomebody.
If somebody gets off during aperiod where they're trying to
(41:37):
teach their horse something andthe lesson isn't going well,
especially if you don't endthere, it's not a bad practice.
Right, right.
I think that's important forpeople to know that, because I
think that there's still someold myths about, you know,
what's okay to do and what's notokay to do.
And the more neuroscience andthe more relationship that we
(42:00):
understand what, what we'reforming, what we're doing with
horses, that some of those mythsreally need to shift.
Yeah.
And.
And this is again, like theresome of the myths that we have,
some of the practices that wehave in the horse world started
(42:21):
out with good intentions.
Mm-hmm.
And then got turned intosomething else.
And, and back to the idea oflike making a horse run in the
round pen.
So.
Chasing a horse around a roundpen until it submits is, I don't
(42:42):
think that's how it started.
I, I don't think that's how thepractice started.
That's not what was taught tome.
No.
I mean, I, I actually went tosee Monty Roberts was there, it
was his apprentices that weredoing the training.
Yeah, yeah.
But I, I saw it live when Ifirst, first got a horse and I.
(43:04):
It wasn't so much chasing, itwas a balanced grounded way in
the middle, and not like I'veseen some people do, but you
know, when you're new to all ofthat, the subtleties can easily
escape you.
Right?
And if you don't have.
This is again, like the, this iswhere having the benefit of
having a teacher and a mentorsupervise your work mm-hmm.
(43:26):
Is important because the, thementor, Mon Roberts was then
able to step in and help his,correct, his apprentices from
chasing the horse down.
But then what, you know, hepublished a book and people read
it, and then they applied themethod without supervision.
I mean, I have a video of myselfchasing Firefly, having no idea
what I'm doing.
(43:46):
Way too big, and she's workingso fast, I'm sure.
She's like, what are you doing?
That was one of the things thatI first like stepped in and and
corrected when we first startedworking together.
I'm like, why are you chasingyour horse?
You're scaring your horse.
Like, why are you trying toscare your horse and you are
(44:07):
humble enough to listen andthat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I really appreciate allyour input and yeah.
Taking the time to do anotherpodcast.
I love it when we get to talkwith you.
Well, thanks for having me on.
I'm curious to see who elseresponds to your invite to talk
(44:29):
about this and hear otherpeople's take on, yeah, on what
happened this is a great series.
It's been really good to learnfrom the experience to think
about it.
And, you know, I'm so sorry thatshe got hurt.
I really am yeah.
(44:50):
She seems pretty humble about itthough, and, and pretty grounded
in okay.
Thanks Carissa.
You have a good night.
Thank you.
Bye bye.
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