March 25, 2025 • 66 mins
My Teacher and Mentor and I replay some of our conversations over the years and tie them to current issues, and struggles of the horse world, the therapy world, our political landscape, and Equine Thereapy and Equine Learning. We also discuss bullying, our shadow sides, ethics, neuroscinece, and relationships, what is and is not abusive to animals and the conversation continues in the second part.
Charissa wears many hats, including Mental Health Therapist and Clinical Supervisor and Horse Trainer,
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Tonight I have a really specialguest that I've been waiting a
very long time to interview,Carissa Schmidt.
And I'm going to let her tellyou about her qualifications and
we'll both chime in a little bitabout our history together
before we cover a Rather broadselection of topics about equine
(00:24):
assisted practices and therapyand horse training and just all
the real important things.
Welcome Carissa.
Thank you.
It's.
Yeah, it's good to be togetheron this platform, finally.
We have been brainstorming andimagining this for a long time.
(00:47):
We have.
We have very much so.
In fact, the whole purpose ofthe podcast, The Quiet
Revolution is something that webegan talking about like eight
years ago.
Have we really been workingtogether that long?
It's 2016.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
So, Okay.
(01:09):
For the sake of the listeners,we are in 2025.
It is like five years postCOVID.
We worked together quite a bitbefore that and then the world
turned upside down and here weare finally reconnecting, so.
Okay.
So I guess, yeah, I can share alittle bit about me.
(01:30):
So we were introduced 2016 ishby a mutual friend.
And this is a friend who knew Ihad horses and would come and
help me with my horses justaround my place.
And then was like, oh, horsepeople, horse people, let's
connect.
And that's how we met.
And.
(01:52):
I think our relationship evolvedfrom just like acquaintances
into a partnership where reallyworked together and wrestled
through a bunch of stuff.
And I feel like you call me amentor.
I feel like I've done a lot ofconsulting.
And I guess we're here to talkabout the place that I've been
(02:13):
consulting from.
So my day job, I work as amental health therapist.
I have a master's degree inclinical mental health
counseling, and I'm a licensedprofessional counselor in the
state of Oregon.
And then I'm also a boardapproved clinical supervisor,
which kind of adds anotherperspective to the clinical
(02:33):
process that Not everyone in thehorse world, I think, is aware
of so my job in the mentalhealth field is to oversee the
clinical work of people comingup and make sure that we're
adhering the best practices andthen practicing ethically.
And like, we have an ethic to dothings like do no harm.
(02:56):
So I'm a gatekeeper and I.
But also my job is to nurtureand grow and develop clinicians,
in the field, so it's adifferent, it's a different
perspective than workingdirectly with clients.
It's a different role.
And I do still work directlywith clients.
(03:20):
Most of my clinical career hasbeen working with 2 different
populations.
1 is working with children andI'm a trained play therapist and
play therapy supervisor.
And the other is working withadults with complex trauma.
(03:44):
And so I hold a developmentalperspective on things.
And I originally got into thecounseling field because I was
just, Completely fell in lovewith dream work, and I wanted to
find a pathway to incorporatethat kind of things into my
(04:04):
daily life and my daily work andand help people explore their
inner world, explore the worldof the unconscious, explore the
world of symbols and myths andstorytelling.
My undergraduate degrees andEnglish literature and political
science.
So.
I kind of have a broad educationand then my horse career goes
(04:29):
way back.
I started riding when I was six.
So, and then I started teachingwhen I was 15 and started
training when I was like aroundthe same age and then went to a
small equestrian college where.
I got introduced to a lot ofequine science, veterinary
(04:50):
science, but a lot of also anacademic approach to different
writing theories.
And we got schooled in westernwriting, breaking and training
which I now call cult Starting,like I'm on that side of the
fence.
And then also dressage and crosscountry.
And so we just got like.
exposed all of it.
(05:11):
We got, again, basic pre vetstuff, business classes.
That's where I first startedtrimming hooves.
So we just did a little bit ofeverything there.
And I've had the opportunity towork for some pretty large
programs where we were managingherds of like 30 to 70 horses.
And getting hundreds of peopleconnected with horses in a short
(05:33):
amount of time.
So I've worked as a trail guide,worked as a riding instructor,
worked as a head wrangler.
Some of these large programswere like summer camps and
things like that were, we'regetting people that have never
connected with horses beforeconnected with horses yeah,
credibly broad range ofexperiences and knowledge.
(05:55):
It's so broad.
It's so broad.
So I've had to narrow that in mydevelopment, and the thing that
I like studying is classicaldressage.
And then I also, so some peoplemight know what this is, I was
exposed early on to the basichandle, which goes back to Monty
(06:16):
Foreman, and Which comes out ofthe military, the American
military tradition and FortRiley.
So if we hear about the Americanseat or the forward seat that I
got schooled really deeply inthat during my middle school,
high school years.
And if you don't know, MontyForeman was a American cavalry
(06:38):
officer.
He was one of the last.
And he, after he was out of themilitary, he did a lot of work
in the racing industry and polo.
And then also this was like backin the 50s and 60s when we were
first developing like theAmerican Stock Horse and the
American Stock HorseAssociation.
And but his big, I think likeinnovation to the horses was he
(07:00):
was the first person because hehad access to cameras in the
military back in the, 40s, likebefore civilians had cameras.
He was able to be one of thefirst to use slow motion
analysis of a writer's movementand balance and biomechanics to
(07:24):
really, really start aconversation, which is.
The big conversation or a bigconversation in the horse
industry now, which is like howa writer's energy movement and
own balance impacts the balanceand movement of the horse and
vice versa.
So, yeah, as you're mentioning.
(07:44):
Monty Thurman, I am reallyappreciating the saddle that you
found and helped me pick out.
It is saddles and is a balancedride saddle.
And I've been riding barebackfor the last five years because
the horse that I've been ridinggained so much weight that the
saddle didn't fit her, whichmakes sense.
And, but it fits, but now my newhorse has has filled out enough
(08:07):
that the saddle fits him.
And so to be back in that saddleand feel my body and that kind
of alignment has been wonderful.
Yeah.
So if people aren't familiar,Monty Foreman developed his own
stock saddle, so a Westernsaddle that fits more like an
all purpose English saddle.
So it puts you closer to thehorse and it.
(08:30):
What's your body in the sameposition your body might
naturally be in if you weresitting right back on the horse?
And so it, like, it is adifferent kind of experience
than, like, being in a big wadesaddle or a ranch saddle where
there's a lot of bulk, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Quite different.
Yeah.
(08:50):
Wow.
So yeah, we worked together.
You came and began teaching me.
And I remember, I remember thevery first thing that you did
with Sipsi is, is you stood inthe round pen with her, not in
the middle.
You just stood in there with herand I, I had no idea what was
going on and I watched youconnect with her and read her
(09:14):
and her read you and you lateryou explained all this to me.
And then the other thing thatyou did was you put a lead rope
on her and you just stood therewith the lead rope in your hand
for like 10 minutes.
That's right, because you, oh mygosh, I remember the energy of
that day too, like, because.
You've told this story on thepodcast I think in previous
(09:36):
episodes about her.
She had a thing with traumaThere was a block in her mind
and a block in your mind becauseof her block about ropes And so
we just sat there and kind oflike neutralized the charge
about ropes and it it took timeYeah, I remember asking like
(09:56):
what are you doing?
And you said I'm I'm telling herthat the rope is And you were
doing this energetically thatlike you were trying to
communicate through the ropethat the rope wouldn't hurt her
and that it was a learning tool.
And yeah, I just, I rememberthat.
And the other thing I rememberis getting headaches whenever
(10:19):
you came, I had this likepressure in my head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We had some breakthroughs aroundthat too.
And like, do you remember?
What you ended up connecting tothe headache trying to become
ready to learn and knowing thatI needed to open myself to, to
the knowledge and that, is thatwhat you remember?
(10:41):
You remember something else?
I remember something similar andI, but I remember it took us a
while, like it took a few monthsto get to that place and like,
every time we get together, theheadache would come up and we'd
sit with it and we'd sit with itand like, it would like.
We'd work with it a little biteach time.
Yeah.
It was hard to get open enoughto be able to absorb everything
(11:03):
that I wanted to learn from you.
I think it took both of us timein our relationship to learn.
It took me time to learn what itis that you wanted or needed to
learn from me, too.
And so that question became apart of our dance.
(11:24):
And I think, just simply, yeah,yeah.
I just, I know we have so muchto talk about, but this seems, I
think we have a lot of talkingpoints.
I think we're going to have morethan one conversation.
Yeah.
So let's take our time with it.
Awesome.
That's awesome.
So there was, there was aparticular lesson with my horse
(11:45):
pie, the the Mustang Appaloosagelding, who had a mind of his
own.
Like Like Alpalooza's do and,and you were teaching me to move
him forward.
And, and this horse was likesuch a war pony because every
time we would strategizesomething, he would come up with
a counter strategy.
(12:06):
So I was moving forward a fewsteps at a time and practicing
like keeping the doors keepingmy reins and my legs in a way
that I was.
Directing him with those andtrying to move forward, but then
I would look at where we were,and somehow, even though we were
(12:27):
moving forward, we would be wayback from where we were the
trajectory that we were tryingto make up.
That was a big metaphoricallearning day.
Like, we were so successful inhis learning that day, even
though he ended up shimmying andsquirreling and fidgeting
(12:47):
himself backwards in space.
Like, the mental forwardprogress was so much more
important than the physicalprogress.
Yeah, yeah.
And I I also remember becomingreally dysregulated on him and
he and I got in this loop andyou were witnessing it and yeah,
(13:08):
and, and you were aware of itbefore we started working
together.
You had that pattern really welldefined because it had been
happening before we startedpartnering.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And somehow the lesson becameabout.
I mean, I knew how to calmmyself down, but I didn't
realize how it was interactivewith the horse in a loop.
(13:31):
And somehow you got us throughthat.
I remember that lesson.
It felt more like therapy than ariding lesson.
Well, I think, okay, this is, Iguess we'll open this to like,
we've had this conversation alot where I've had to get clear
on defining what the scope ofour relationship is.
(13:54):
Because I'm not your therapistand I was, I'm not your clinical
supervisor, but I have thisknowledge and this training and
these skills.
And and I think one of ourmantras or one of my mantras
that I've developed out of ourtime together has been like,
well, like I can't preventtherapeutic things from
happening, you know, so.
If therapeutic things happenwhile I'm in a teaching role, I
(14:18):
can witness that, but I don'thave to be the therapist in
order for the therapy to happen.
Right.
For the healing to happen andthe learning to happen, the
growth to happen.
That is such a great pointbecause it really illustrates
(14:40):
what happens when we can't likethis, the power of witnessing.
Right.
Right.
And intention.
Yeah.
So not too long ago you sent mea a video with Dr.
Oh my gosh, I'm blanking on hisname.
The one that likened a horse'sMovement to it.
(15:01):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Dewey Friedman from the GestaltIturquain Institute.
So I got excited when I foundhis work and I sent that to you
partially because I think it'slike as a reference, if other
listeners are curious, likeit's, he does a really good job
of kind of explaining like whatthe work is energetically that's
(15:24):
happening in a very clinicalway.
And I'm familiar with some ofhis students, like Lisa Dion in
the play therapy world is knownfor creating a modality called
synergistic play therapy, whichworks with like interpersonal
neurobiology, but also workingwith the somatic experience of
(15:45):
the provider and the inner worldof the provider as being equally
important in the room.
And especially like when wework, maybe this is a good segue
to start talking about someneurobiology stuff.
As we're going to, as we'regoing to go into that, because I
felt like comparing andcontrasting the takeaway from
Dr.
Dewey and the takeaway fromRupert.
(16:08):
Isaacson are like they both.
We all know that there's thismagic.
We're all having the sameexperience, but they're
explaining it through sciencequite differently.
You know, one is neurosciencewith oxytocin in the hips and
the other is the thing thatyou're about to talk about.
So I think they're right.
Right.
Okay.
(16:28):
Well, Okay, let me back up thenand we'll get into more of like,
I'm going to put on my clinicalsupervisor hat a little bit
first and and maybe help laypeople understand why there
might be all of these competingcamps and schools.
And so.
In my job, as I'm trainingclinicians I have to adhere to
(16:51):
my professional ethics, and Ihave to adhere to the ethics
that are given to me by thelicensing bodies that allow me
to do the work that I do.
So for me, here in the state ofOregon Oregon adopts.
In the counseling world we adoptthe ACAF, Access to the American
Counseling Association.
And then there's also an ethicalcode that is very, very similar
(17:15):
for psychologists.
There's an ethical code for amarriage and family therapist.
There's an ethical code for.
Clinical social workers, andthey're all like overlap in lots
of ways, but they all have theirlittle tweaks and differences
that, like, make the differentprofessions what they are.
But, like, some of the universalprinciples, though, are going to
(17:39):
be things like do no harm.
And, or, you know, to respectyour client's identity without
bias or discrimination, orthings like that like the social
work world has a big focus onsocial justice, the marriage and
family world has a big focus ongroups and systems, and they use
(18:01):
a lot of systems theory, so it'smore about, like, how The way
that we move and interact in oursocial environment impacts our
identity and who we are thecounseling world has very much
like a, a growth mindset and ismore individually focused and is
really, really focused on howthe nature and dynamic of
(18:25):
relationship as the agent ofchange.
And then psychologists are morelike the clinical researchers.
They're going to be more likeapt to do assessments and
diagnosis and things like that.
That's a really simplebreakdown.
But one of the things, like Ihave an ethic to either practice
(18:45):
in an evidence based way or in atheory based way.
It can be both, but they'redifferent.
And what I offer my superviseesis a conversation and a clinical
supervision practice thatengages in reflective practice
and parallel process.
(19:05):
And I can define that too.
And we focus on theory, we focuson theory.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
So I just want to break thisdown for listeners a little bit
that are not as familiar withthe The jargon of.
Yes, we can.
We can go back and define allthese things.
So these different categoriesthat all have to do with ethics
(19:29):
for different job titles thatall kind of fall under that
broader category.
And these are good.
It's not just job titles.
This is different degrees.
Different areas of clinicalfocus, clinical focus.
Okay.
That's yeah.
So between and you and I havetalked about this a little bit.
(19:50):
And in the last interview, Kaiand I broached the subject, just
a little bit of theory based andevidence based and the
conversation that you and I havehad before that applies to this
and to the neuroscience is, isabout I had to do with insurance
also.
(20:11):
So that, well, yes.
Okay.
So this is my, this is like the,why are you not doing equine
therapy, Carissa?
My answer to that question.
Right.
And I've had to defend thatanswer so many times over my
career.
So yes, I am a horse person.
I'm deeply, deeply a horseperson and I am a therapist, but
(20:31):
I don't do equine therapy.
And, and my answer is always, Ican do more.
I can do more without.
I can do more as just ahorsemanship instructor than I
can as a therapist, and my scopeis bigger, and my, the range of
what a possibility gets biggerwhen I take off my therapeutic
(20:52):
lens, and this is why I believetheory is equally or more
important to understand as wemove forward as a field.
And I'm so adamant aboutteaching my supervisees their
theory.
They have to know their theoryin order to work with me.
And, and here's what happens.
(21:13):
So, evidence based practiceallows us to research.
Research is necessary.
In order to convince payers thatwhat we're doing is valuable and
worth the money that they giveus.
(21:34):
And so when we start talkingabout equine therapy as a
practice, all of a sudden, I amfaced with an ethical dilemma of
how do I get my clients accessto the experience and the care
that I know horses can provide.
(21:56):
And also feed myself and inorder to get paid, most clients,
the majority of people seekingservices, unless they are
incredibly privilegedeconomically, and I'm going to
put privilege out there.
So the majority of the peopleare not economically privileged
(22:16):
enough to access therapy withoutinsurance.
That's just the fact.
And, and actually it'sinteresting.
So I've worked in communitymental health, which serves the
Medicare, Medicaid population.
And I also work in a privategroup practice where we only
take private insurance.
And it's actually the privateinsurance community and my
(22:36):
community that's moreunderserved.
We have more providers for theMedicare, Medicaid than we do
for private insurance.
But to ask someone to pay my feeout of pocket for equine therapy
is just simply a barrier formost people.
(22:57):
And it breaks my heart that mostpeople cannot access horses
because money is a barrier.
When insurance gets involved,they want to know that what I'm
doing is evidence based.
And what that means is that theywant me.
(23:19):
They want me to create manualsand protocols.
They want me to create systemsand mechanize the work that I do
so that it can be consistent andmeasurable and things like that.
And there's, there is a value tothat because, yes, we need to be
able to say that what we'redoing is effective.
(23:42):
We need to have some measuresand goals and ways to measure
change.
I'm about to stir the pot.
I am stirring a professional potthat and I'm about to take a
stand on some things.
And so not all clinicians aregoing to agree with me on this.
And I respect the cliniciansthat are doing the best they can
to work in the system.
I'm also doing the best I can towork in the system.
(24:05):
The history of the insurancesystem and medical models of
mental health therapy is justdark, and it has, we are, I, I
came into a field about 15 yearsago when I first started doing
(24:26):
this work where Children werebeing treated with behavioral
interventions that causedrelational harm.
And if we think about horses asa metaphor, like, and I'm going
to keep bringing it back to thekids, because the kids are
(24:47):
innocent, the horses areinnocent.
This, this is the same traumathat many of us in the horse
industry hold, where we weretold to do it.
The way we were told to do it,we were told to kick harder,
pull harder, get that crap, makethem do it, make them mine, show
(25:08):
them who's boss.
And we were groomed to becomeabusers by the generation before
us.
And that was also happening inthe mental health industry in
relationship to clients who werethe most vulnerable and people
who are the most vulnerable.
(25:30):
And that's children.
And that's the chronicallymental ill.
And there's a history to thatthat goes back to before you and
I were born.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's goosebumps there.
And so, yes, thank you fortaking that stand.
And so, yeah, so for me, likethe simple answer is to say
(25:50):
like, I.
I have come to a place where,like, it is more important for
me to protect the integrity ofthe relationship that I have
with people and animals than itis to get paid, and I can't in
good conscious engage theinsurance system when it comes
(26:13):
to animal assisted work, becausethe risk of causing harm goes
up.
Whether it's.
And, and I'd rather stand inintegrity.
So I have my private practice.
I have my therapy practice, myoffice practice, where I am able
(26:35):
to do good things in the system.
And then I have my separatehorsemanship practice where I
can just be a space holder andthere's a more open, authentic
being.
That explanation makes so muchsense.
I mean, I know we've talkedabout this a little bit before
but the full, full breadth ofthat helps me really understand
(26:58):
why you do what you do.
Now, I, you know me, I'm alwaysthinking like, well, there must
be some, Easy answer.
Can't we just and like lastsummer when I was almost
involved with a couple ofnonprofits and doing a lot of
visioning and some writing andtalking to lots and lots of
(27:18):
people and trying to pull ideastogether.
One of the things that I came upwith, with a lot of help was Why
can't we do some studies?
I have a nonprofit cometogether, do some studies that
could become the evidence basedevidence that we need, like
around, for example, horses andpeople and anxiety.
(27:41):
Could we take people withanxiety studies?
Through a nonprofit, get a gradstudent who wants to do their
thesis on it to run it and pulltogether this documented,
scientific, measurableinformation on the benefits of
people with anxiety.
Yeah.
I am horses and move that where,where we can actually make a
(28:05):
change.
I mean, I know a lot of peoplewant to work with horses and
want to work with people andwant to work with nonprofits.
Why can't we tailor a lot ofthat into the system where I'm
going to call out, I'm going tocall out the field again.
So I work for a pretty, I workfor a pretty progressive
nonprofit right now, and thereare some conversations on the
(28:27):
edges of the field right nowabout why this is a challenge,
the history of the field, how,like, we really do need a
cultural change within systemsof care that are Allow us to
return back to our own humanity.
And I don't know how familiaryou you are with the
(28:52):
conversations coming out of themedical field right now.
What happened.
In the medical field and mentalhealth is a branch of that.
We work in the medical model.
Policy became more importantthan care.
Right?
And and so here's okay, reallyquick.
So, to answer your question,people have done that research
(29:14):
that research exists and.
And when I say we need a culturechange, I'm saying we need a
culture change because thespirit of capitalism has taken
that research and put it behinda certification paywall.
And so you have to attachyourself to a certification
(29:34):
process in order to say, I nowhold the information that allows
me to open the store.
Can you break that down in somelanguage that is a little bit
easier for people to understand?
Yes.
This goes back to professionalethics in order to introduce a
new kind of practice as ahealthcare provider.
(29:58):
into the work I do.
I have to demonstrate that I'vereceived adequate training and
supervision in that practicebefore I can just go for it.
So I study a lot of things andI'm trained in a lot of things,
but I can't actually do all ofthe things I know when I meet
(30:20):
with people because I have tostay within the scope of what
I've been trained and supervisedin.
So your, your hands are justtired.
Your hands are just tied.
Yes, yes, yes.
So, and so, and so, in order toaccess that training and
supervision that requires oftenthousands of dollars on my
(30:43):
behalf out of my personal money,just to open the door to say.
Here I can now offer this so inthis way, people that have
worked the way I have you knowwhat I've dabbled in and with
some of the people that Itrained with back in 2016 to be
(31:04):
able to hold the space and theintention.
And be the witness of whathappens with people and horses
without a degree, without alicense, without any of those
things that restrict you thatthe real work is being done.
That's I agree.
I agree.
Yeah.
(31:25):
And yeah.
Yeah.
It's just, and I, and I love thescience that validates the
magic.
I love, I love that science cansay, yes, there actually is
something happening here.
There is a phenomenon that'sreal.
And let's, let's go talk aboutthat with Dr.
Dewey and Rupert Isaacson andthe neuroscience that those two
(31:45):
have, even though they're notexactly on the same page,
they're both kind of saying thesame thing supported by a
different scientific theory,correct?
Right.
If we think about psychology,let me go back to the beginning.
So, psychology is young,psychology is only like, it's
less than 200 years old.
(32:05):
I mean, it's, it's young, it's ayoung, young science.
And psychology really does comeout of philosophy, right?
And it comes out of psychology.
Theoretically, I am very Jungianin my orientation and that's
where I pursue my continuingeducation, but out of necessity,
I got exposed to behavioralschools.
(32:27):
Because that is where it's easyto measure behavior.
It's really difficult to measurethe symbolic archetypal
influence of the unconsciousrising up out of the primal
materia of life.
You can't, it's harder toquantify that.
(32:48):
Yeah.
And because it's harder toresearch, it doesn't get looked
at.
And so what happened is likephilosophy, birth psychology,
and psychology turned also intolike the intersection of
(33:08):
psychology and biology becamethe field of neuroscience where
we studied the physical anatomyof what's happening in the brain
and the nervous.
When I was coming up, I wasexposed to Dan Siegel and people
who are familiar with WarwickSchiller and his work around
interpersonal neurobiology,polyvagal theory, and attachment
(33:28):
theory, he is talking about DanSiegel's work and he's talking
about Steve Porges work.
So Steve Porges, Dan Siegel areboth in this field of
interpersonal neurobiology.
So interpersonal neurobiology.
Is the study of the neuroscienceof relationship and the
(33:48):
beautiful thing that this doesis, and this is the
groundbreaking science that thisfield contributes, in my
opinion, is that it separatesacademically.
The brain and the mind becausethey are not the same and we
often confuse them and when Iwas coming up before this
(34:11):
definition was provided, therewas a big debate about where is
consciousness.
Is it in the brain or is itsomewhere else?
And this contribution says no,it's not.
It's it uses the brain.
It uses the nervous system, butit's something beyond that.
(34:34):
And so The mind in this field isdefined as the process and flow
of information between Peoplewill go into consciousness
studies and say, yes, likeconsciousness is maybe the
container for the mind, but themind is defined as a relational
(34:58):
process, not a thing.
So when I'm standing out in thefield with my horse and I start
to feel better and all theworries of the world start to
melt away, is it my mind?
Is it the horse's mind?
Is it, I don't know what it is,but there's a flow of
information happening that'screating change and it's that
(35:23):
flow of information that ismind.
That being true, I haveexperienced that.
I'm sure a lot of listeners haveexperienced what you're talking
about and most horse people thatare regulated and paying
attention have experienced that.
That in and of itself isn't IMeasurable.
(35:47):
And it isn't.
Yes.
What you can do with horsetherapy.
However, whatever it is you'redoing in horse therapy that is
measurable.
Also, that is present.
No, right.
Right.
So we have to play both games.
(36:07):
Like in order to stay within themedical model, we have to play
the both games.
We have to find again.
This is again where behavior ismeasurable and subjective
reporting of behavior has becomea valid way to measure change.
What that means is I can dothings like say on a scale of 0
to 10.
Like, where 0 is completely calmand 10 is the worst it could be,
(36:31):
what number would you rate youranxiety right now?
And that individual's answer isvalid.
And then, okay, okay, we'regoing to go do some things.
And at the end of our sessionwhere I'm going to ask you the
question again, now, on a scaleof 0 to 10, what number are you
now?
Oh, wow, I noticed.
You know, like I've had anexperiential process that has
(36:53):
now created a different way ofrelating to myself and the
environment and now I'mdifferent and I can put words to
that sometimes or I can putnumbers to it.
I can I can call that evidencebased.
We can't measure that.
We can't have insurance coverthat.
We can't make the magic thathappens with horses and people
(37:14):
in this field available Tell memore about how you feel like you
can't use what I just offered.
Because in a clinical setting,that would be, like, a I could
create a goal for the sake ofthe insurance company that says
client's current baseline is an8 out of 10.
(37:34):
Like their, their subjectiveexperience of their own reality
is an 8 out of 10 on whateverscale that we create or define.
And we want to get it down to afunctioning level, which they
decide is maybe like a four outof 10.
I can cope with that.
(37:57):
So that, that we can createevidence based.
Material with that, we can make,we can make goals with that.
We can make goals with that.
We can, we can create measurablegoals.
But that's different thansaying, I'm using an evidence
based practice.
in my therapy.
(38:20):
So, for example, like EMDR getstalked about in the horse world
a lot.
EMDR has a very strict protocolwith eight phases to it and you
do things in a very specificorder and a very specific, you
know, like step by step process.
And if you deviate from thatprotocol, then you are not
(38:41):
practicing to fidelity.
And now I cannot get paid.
Horses don't operate that way.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
I can, I can sometimes, like, Ican sometimes get my adult
clients to operate that way.
And children don't operate thatway.
(39:04):
Children don't operate, but yetI, like, we still have built
insurance for providing care tochildren.
Yeah, it, it becomes really,really convoluted.
So, what do you think aboutRupert Isaacson's idea?
with the hips, you know, wherehe went to the neuroscientists
after horse boy.
(39:25):
And that's in a previous episodefor people who want to listen to
the interview with him.
And he's an author and there's amovie called horse boy, and it
all comes down to theneuroscience.
After the fact, after all theshamanism is.
moving the hips releasesoxytocin, which increases the
ability of autistic children oranybody to learn and feel good.
(39:49):
And it kind of barrier.
And Dewey says something alittle bit different about that.
I'm trying to remember exactlywhat he said.
Yes.
Okay.
So this is where again, knowingyour theory is important.
They're giving these twodifferent people are going to
give Different answers to thesame question, because they're
looking through a different lensto provide that answer.
(40:13):
And, and this is again, likewhere I get curious about like
how different theories mightinfluence my perspective and my
perspective of health and changein a particular situation.
So Rupert Isaacson is working alot with, yes, the, the actual
physical neuroscience of thebody.
(40:35):
And it is pointing to theneurochemicals as the agent of
change.
And what I know about DeweyFreeman, and just like, and I'm,
I haven't studied or trainedwith him, but what I know about
gestalt therapy, and what I knowabout, The theory of gestalt,
(40:56):
which does work with the ideathat we get these blocking
beliefs through experience inutero and, and I come more from
an object relations school inthe work that I do, which is
again this idea that we getconditioned to you.
(41:17):
Believe that the world is anunsafe place, or we get
conditioned in a pre verbalwindow of development through
experience in relationship tolearn that maybe we're unworthy
of love, or that we're going tobe abandoned.
Or that the world isn't safe, orthat other people aren't safe.
(41:40):
And we, we, these experiencesthen translate into operating
beliefs that then define how wemove through the world.
And so, and so.
If we take, again, like sittingon the back of the horse and
having our pelvis moved, we cango to the occupational therapy
(42:02):
world and say, Oh, I'mactivating and regulating the
proprioceptive system.
And then we get Rupert Isaacsonsaying, Oh, yeah, that's
happening.
But no, no, no, it's really theoxytocin.
And then, you know, DeweyFriedman, the Gestalt therapist
is going to come along and say,Oh, no, no, no.
Yeah, that's happening.
And really the agent of changeis.
(42:25):
Having a relational experiencethat changes these operating
belief systems.
And then here I am saying, Idon't know.
I'm just going to dive into themystery of it all and get
curious about what happens.
But what I know is that when Iengage in the archetype of the
horse, and I allow myself toembody the archetype of human,
(42:50):
and we come together, goodthings happen.
Yeah, magic happens.
So, yeah.
And I think Like, maybe, I knowthere's been a lot of, like,
talk on social media recently,and there seems to be this,
like, debate between old school,new school, or more old school
(43:14):
classical conditioning versus Rplus reward relationship
therapy, like, the only positivereinforcement, like.
Again, like, to even justentertain the idea of, like,
positive reinforcement andflooding theory and conditioning
and operant conditioning and allthat, you have to know that that
(43:36):
is the language that comes outof the behavioral school of
psychology.
So, again, you're As applied tohorse training is what you're
talking about as applied toanimal behavior?
Yes.
And, and that same, those sameideas are applied to and this is
where things get dark becauseit's those same ideas that are
(43:56):
applied to the kinds of,residential programs that the
indigenous people were appliedinto that then stripped them of
their culture.
So it can be used for harm, butdraw some more parallels.
Yeah, I took a big loss.
(44:17):
I know I took a really big jump.
I took a really big job.
Yeah, let's break that.
So this behavioral school, theidea of operant conditioning,
the idea of positivereinforcement, negative
reinforcement, things like that,comes out of a behavioral school
of psychology.
And it goes back to people likeB.
F.
Skinner.
(44:37):
And B.
F.
Skinner's research was used bythe U.
S.
government.
To create schools for theindigenous children that were
taken from their parents andplaced in boarding schools and
foster homes and then strippedof their culture.
So, the thing that is beingpointed at right now is
(44:59):
progressive in the equine worldbecause it is a step away from
manipulation and harm andbullying.
Was also used in history tocause harm to people.
What is a step away?
Let's look at the history of thehorse industry.
So I came up in the 80s and 90s.
(45:21):
And so I was, I was raisedriding the million dollar Arabs
of the 70s, where the horseindustry had this huge heyday
and this big boom.
And the show world became very,very, very lucrative.
(45:45):
And horses were a hot commodityand the competition became so
fierce that it was standardpractice to abuse and drug
horses in order to get thepaycheck.
And I'm just going to say that Icame up in the reining industry
in the 90s and had to step awaybecause I saw too many horses
(46:08):
break down.
And at the same barn that I wastraining out of, I watched
horses in the saddle seatindustry flip over and die.
On a regular.
Because of the stand, you know,and no one questioned what was
going on at the time because themoney was too good.
Wow.
(46:31):
That's a heck of a history.
It's the same thing that peopleare challenging now with the
racing industry.
You know, like we just had apretty major racetrack in
California closed down.
And yes, there's now likegenerations of people that are
out of work because of that.
(46:51):
But that racetrack was measuringits progress and change by
trying to reduce the number offatal breakdowns on the track.
If you don't know what a fatalbreakdown is, that's when a
horse gives that physically inthe middle of a race and dies in
the race.
Oh my God.
Like So, I mean, this, this isthe extent of the abuse.
(47:15):
We have gotten that far awayfrom what is humane because the
money was so good.
And now we have lots of people,including myself and you
speaking out against this.
Yes.
And sometimes We get sopassionate and upset and angry
(47:35):
at what's happening that we canlose sight not so much you but
I'm probably a little bit guiltyof this and I know some other
people are of pointing fingers.
To the extent that we becomepart of the problem.
Can you, can you speak to that?
Yes.
And, and that I will, I'm goingto speak generally because I
(47:56):
think that's a natural stage inthe healing process when you're
recovering from the abuse cycleand the cycle of violence.
And, and there's a word for thatclinically in the domestic
violence world.
We talk about how sometimes thevictims of domestic violence
also get tangled in a legalprocess where they are also a
(48:17):
perpetrator because the.
The amount of energy necessaryto stand up to the abuse becomes
reactive and somewhat harmful tothe person they're standing up
to.
(48:38):
So it's like the eye for an eye,you hit me, I'm going to hit you
back.
And.
And that can be really, reallydisorienting to face within
yourself when the story thatyou've been living is that you
have been abused and you havebeen hurt and you have been
victimized for so long, and youfinally find enough power to
(49:02):
step out of a freeze response orfawning response and fight back.
I mean, we love movies that dothat.
Yeah, we love justice.
We want justice.
It's justifiable.
We don't want people to beabused.
We want them to be empowered.
(49:23):
Yes.
And forces to be abused.
You want people to treat themdifferently.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the road to doing that with,with education and positive
feedback is so long and hard.
And I'm constantly reading thesethings on Facebook by people who
are calling other people out.
(49:44):
And, you know, I want to say,sometimes I do say like, can't
we just get an organization thatyou can call and go in there and
get these people educated.
Because that's what it takes,but we don't have that standard.
We don't have that agreement.
We, we're a long ways away frombeing there, but we do have this
(50:05):
permeated problem of horsesbeing abused because people
don't understand or becausepeople are dysregulated.
And another thing that is beingtalked about a lot is like
people are not attuned to theemotional well being or to the
emotional world of the animal.
(50:26):
And so they're lacking empathywhich is scary because a lack of
empathy is what defines thingslike psychopathy.
And it's difficult to beencountered that potential
within yourself.
Yeah, it's, it's difficult to,I, I know that sometimes I
encounter people who have areally defined spiritual
(50:47):
practice.
Maybe they're vegetarian,they're vegan, they're animal
rights activists, and then thehorse exposes the predator in
them, and they didn't know itwas there.
They didn't know that thatnature was dormant within them.
And then their own capacity tomanipulate and control is
(51:09):
exposed.
And then they have to face thatwithin themselves.
It's much, much easier to avoidthat reality.
And say, well, I'm going to gobecome religious in my
horsemanship.
And I'm only going to use thesemethods which are evidence based
that are proven to cause noharm.
(51:29):
And if I just do it right, thenI'll be good enough.
Okay.
And I won't, and I won't have toconfront the totality of what it
means to be human.
Right.
Okay.
So I want to comment on this abit because when you and I have
watched and traded back andforth, watching some training
videos, there are things thathappen.
(51:49):
And I know there's somethingthat happens inside me because
there's a place where we'retrying to become a leader.
A benevolent leader, but there'sall of this dominance and
there's all this tradition ofdominance that we were just and
and there's fear.
These are large animals and whenwe start to become, you said
(52:11):
something and I, I didn't latchonto the phrase or the word that
you said, but it's likesomething becomes exposed.
In us that is unpleasant, but itcomes from a place of trying you
have so much wisdom and there'sso much there.
Sometimes I just get full andwe've been talking for a little
bit.
So I want to hear that partagain about what's the box and
(52:35):
then what's there and what'sallowed out that is acceptable.
can you say that again?
Society conditions us and welearn that some things are okay
to show.
And some things are not okay toshow unless So the mask is what
we learn is okay to show and,and there's things that we learn
(53:02):
and it might be different indifferent contexts.
It might be different indifferent relationships.
Sure, you know, so what's okayto show in my home may not be
the same as what's okay to showat work.
Or in public.
And, and we can break down thatprinciple in so many different
(53:25):
ways and give lots of examplesof how that shows up in society.
Like, it's a big conversationright now in the adolescent
development world is the, thequestion about gender identity,
like, what is okay to show inthe bodies we are given and, and
is it okay to show somethingOther than what aligns with what
(53:50):
people imagine is connected todifferent biological sexes and
biological expressions.
Okay.
That's I mean, that's anexample.
So.
Everything we learn that's notokay to show goes into our
shadow.
(54:11):
And some of that goes in thereunconsciously, and some of it
goes there consciously.
So an example of that might beif I'm hypothetically out
dating, and I really like thisperson, and the person on the
date says, I'm a vegetarian, Imight put in the shadow for a
(54:36):
little while that I eat meat.
Conforming.
Yeah, yeah.
And then other things getconditioned and go in the shadow
because through unconsciousprocesses, some of the things in
the shadow are untappedpotential.
(54:58):
So it's not all negative things.
It's just.
It's just unseen things.
It's just hidden things.
And, and there's a whole, like,lineage of people that have
talked about how we can findgold in the shadows.
It's worth going into the darkplaces, because there are things
in there that are worthy ofbeing redeemed.
(55:20):
Absolutely.
I want to bring shame into that.
And I want to bring horses intothat conversation because,
because there's a way there's away that some people without a
license, because if you have alicense, you're not supposed to
do this kind of stuff canidentify or have a superpower of
identifying.
(55:41):
Those areas of shame that are inthe shadow that can actually
bring forth these really goodthings but, but our culture
doesn't deal with that.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And the horse has a way ofholding space.
And somehow, in my experience,knows or helps bring these
(56:02):
things forward too.
Because they have no judgment.
MacBook Air Microphone & Face (56:07):
I am doing a pause here for part
two because Carissa and myconversation continued and also
didn't finish.
So we're going to record thesecond part that will start
right after this.
So please tune in for the restof this conversation.
I hope that you are enjoying itas much as I am.
(56:28):
I've waited so long to interviewher and it feels like the most
important conversation of thewhole podcast.
Thanks for tuning in.
They have, okay, and, and thisis where, like, okay, the book,
Evidence Based Horsemanship withMartin Black and the other guy
is it Stephen Peters?
(56:48):
I don't remember.
But the evidence basedhorsemanship book that goes into
the neuroanatomy of the horse'sbrain, where we've learned that
horses don't have a prefrontalcortex, I can point to that from
my understanding ofdevelopmental neuroscience and
interpersonal neurobiology andsay, like, Oh, wow.
(57:11):
A horse doesn't have aprefrontal cortex.
That is the seat of abstractthought and language and
reasoning.
And so, if I connect that backup to the idea that Dewey
Friedman put forward in hispodcast that recently came out,
where he says, like, yes, wehave these operating beliefs
(57:33):
that tell us That maybe we'renot worthy or we're bad or we're
broken.
Horses literally don't have thehardware to have those beliefs,
but what they do have is alimbic system and a whole lot of
empathy, exactly.
And that's like.
The work of Pak Yongsep and thefunctions of the limbic system
(57:58):
and the circuits that areavailable to us there is the
place where we experiencerelational change.
It's not always through thebelief, it's through the
embodiment and the experienceand the emotionality of it.
(58:21):
Through the heart centeredplace.
That's where the shifts happen.
I believe.
Yeah.
No, I've seen it.
I believe.
I've experienced it.
I know.
I mean, I know this is the, thisis part of the magic we're
talking about that isn't justexplained by the neuroscience.
But I mean, it is, but it's not.
Right, we have, we have enoughscience now to, to measure the
(58:45):
electrical magnetic field of theheart.
We have enough science now to,like, do the fMRI imaging and
things like that to define thesecircuits.
We have enough science now toput language to the electrical
phenomena happening in the body.
That electrical phenomena is areflection.
In the physical world of back toDan Siegel's definition of mind,
(59:11):
the process and flow ofinformation between two beings.
Okay, so my mind's just going tothis thing that I, that I heard
that we've talked about that isa very maybe Oversimplification
of what we've just been talkingabout, and that is that the
horse can.
This is the reason the horse canbecome a surrogate to heal a
(59:34):
trauma that happened in a humanto human relationship.
Yeah, I, I think that.
If I'm gonna add to that, Ithink one of my theories about
that is that associationsmatter.
In my work with people withcomplex trauma like in the
(59:55):
trauma recovery world, there'slots of isms.
And one of the isms is that it'svery difficult to heal in the
place that hurt you.
And so for those of us who'veexperienced social environments
that are chronicallyinvalidating and chronically
(01:00:17):
creating relational wounds.
Or you're existing inrelationship with someone who,
like, just is so stuck in theirown stuff that they're not
healing, growing or changingsometimes, like, We need to
remove some of the humanvariable and we can still
(01:00:38):
experience relational thingswithout the association.
Of the human, like, of beinghuman.
Because I do believe, and I havemet and encountered people who
have just been so hurt by life,by, and so hurt by humanity,
(01:01:01):
that, that I cannot look them inthe eyes and tell them It's
gonna be okay, and that theywon't be hurt again.
The reality, the heavy realityis that, yeah, humans are really
nasty creatures sometimes.
And when people are hurting,they hurt other people.
(01:01:25):
Hurt people hurt people.
And what a gift to be able tohave a moment in time where
you're connected and held andattuned to by another being
that's not hurting you the sameway that you've been hurt.
(01:01:45):
And is actually incapable of alot of that.
Yeah, and I might not be thatbeing and that's okay.
Yeah, the horse as a surrogateand the horse holding that space
and like the palpable way that Ihave experienced feeling the
(01:02:11):
electromagnetic field of theirhearts.
Magnet magnified by like howmany of them there might be like
with a higher herd in Canada, orso this is where I wonder too,
is like the untapped potentialof wild horses.
Oh my gosh, to be able to formthat electromagnetic field and
(01:02:37):
make such a huge difference,especially with people that fit
into what you're just describingis so incredibly powerful.
And and yet these beautifulcreatures with that kind of
potential are slaughtered andstarved and not cared for.
(01:03:06):
And if we don't manage thepopulations, then we're going to
lose all of them, the reality ofthat.
I wonder if that, like, sothere's, I'm going to, I'm going
to back up and kind of recap,because that's being an advocate
(01:03:26):
for the horse for the horse.
There are ways that we can beadvocates for the horses that
are perhaps lucky enough to bein captivity in a good way.
I think I'm going to pivot awayfrom the mental health world
and, but I'm going to stay withthe storytelling and the mythic
(01:03:48):
world and the place my mind goeswhen you bring that up is to the
history, the long, long historyof relationship that we have
with horses and the history ofdomestication and what it means
to be in relationship with thedomesticated animal and the
story of the American Mustang.
(01:04:09):
Okay.
Like that's big, it is really,it is really big, but you know
what, it's a parallel to it'salso, isn't that also a parallel
to the colonization anddecolonization and solvency 100
percent we were going to talkabout, yeah, 100 percent like
it's so like, I mean, if we lookat the history of what it means
(01:04:33):
to be human, like, especially Iwas having a conversation with
some colleagues of mine, and wewere talking about the influence
of colonization on the mentalhealth world and the influence
of colonization on just what itmeans to be human in society
right now in the political timesthat we're in, like, so, I mean,
(01:04:54):
this, this, this is up and.
And the horses have traveledwith us and lived this with us
for thousands of years.
They have not, they know thestory because they've lived it
with us.
Like if we think aboutgenerational trauma and
generational healing and workingwith the ancestors and working
(01:05:16):
with the reality that Most of ushere in America come out of
immigrant families, and mostimmigrant families, like, my
family, I have branches of myfamily that have immigrated to
America going back to the 1600sduring the mass migration from
(01:05:37):
Europe, and then I have morerecent immigrants in my family,
but we're all escaping war andpoverty and famine and hardship
and trauma and genocide.
Right.
That's in our DNA.
And the horses have traveledwith us through that, and
they've experienced it alongsideus.
(01:05:58):
And so what we see happening inthe horse industry is also
happening to humanity.
Samson Q2U Microphone & Face (01:06:04):
We decided to pause our
conversation here, so that's theend of part one, and there is a
part two.
Stay tuned.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Tonight I have a really specialguest that I've been waiting a
very long time to interview,Carissa Schmidt.
And I'm going to let her tellyou about her qualifications and
we'll both chime in a little bitabout our history together
before we cover a Rather broadselection of topics about equine
(00:24):
assisted practices and therapyand horse training and just all
the real important things.
Welcome Carissa.
Thank you.
It's.
Yeah, it's good to be togetheron this platform, finally.
We have been brainstorming andimagining this for a long time.
(00:47):
We have.
We have very much so.
In fact, the whole purpose ofthe podcast, The Quiet
Revolution is something that webegan talking about like eight
years ago.
Have we really been workingtogether that long?
It's 2016.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
So, Okay.
(01:09):
For the sake of the listeners,we are in 2025.
It is like five years postCOVID.
We worked together quite a bitbefore that and then the world
turned upside down and here weare finally reconnecting, so.
Okay.
So I guess, yeah, I can share alittle bit about me.
(01:30):
So we were introduced 2016 ishby a mutual friend.
And this is a friend who knew Ihad horses and would come and
help me with my horses justaround my place.
And then was like, oh, horsepeople, horse people, let's
connect.
And that's how we met.
And.
(01:52):
I think our relationship evolvedfrom just like acquaintances
into a partnership where reallyworked together and wrestled
through a bunch of stuff.
And I feel like you call me amentor.
I feel like I've done a lot ofconsulting.
And I guess we're here to talkabout the place that I've been
(02:13):
consulting from.
So my day job, I work as amental health therapist.
I have a master's degree inclinical mental health
counseling, and I'm a licensedprofessional counselor in the
state of Oregon.
And then I'm also a boardapproved clinical supervisor,
which kind of adds anotherperspective to the clinical
(02:33):
process that Not everyone in thehorse world, I think, is aware
of so my job in the mentalhealth field is to oversee the
clinical work of people comingup and make sure that we're
adhering the best practices andthen practicing ethically.
And like, we have an ethic to dothings like do no harm.
(02:56):
So I'm a gatekeeper and I.
But also my job is to nurtureand grow and develop clinicians,
in the field, so it's adifferent, it's a different
perspective than workingdirectly with clients.
It's a different role.
And I do still work directlywith clients.
(03:20):
Most of my clinical career hasbeen working with 2 different
populations.
1 is working with children andI'm a trained play therapist and
play therapy supervisor.
And the other is working withadults with complex trauma.
(03:44):
And so I hold a developmentalperspective on things.
And I originally got into thecounseling field because I was
just, Completely fell in lovewith dream work, and I wanted to
find a pathway to incorporatethat kind of things into my
(04:04):
daily life and my daily work andand help people explore their
inner world, explore the worldof the unconscious, explore the
world of symbols and myths andstorytelling.
My undergraduate degrees andEnglish literature and political
science.
So.
I kind of have a broad educationand then my horse career goes
(04:29):
way back.
I started riding when I was six.
So, and then I started teachingwhen I was 15 and started
training when I was like aroundthe same age and then went to a
small equestrian college where.
I got introduced to a lot ofequine science, veterinary
(04:50):
science, but a lot of also anacademic approach to different
writing theories.
And we got schooled in westernwriting, breaking and training
which I now call cult Starting,like I'm on that side of the
fence.
And then also dressage and crosscountry.
And so we just got like.
exposed all of it.
(05:11):
We got, again, basic pre vetstuff, business classes.
That's where I first startedtrimming hooves.
So we just did a little bit ofeverything there.
And I've had the opportunity towork for some pretty large
programs where we were managingherds of like 30 to 70 horses.
And getting hundreds of peopleconnected with horses in a short
(05:33):
amount of time.
So I've worked as a trail guide,worked as a riding instructor,
worked as a head wrangler.
Some of these large programswere like summer camps and
things like that were, we'regetting people that have never
connected with horses beforeconnected with horses yeah,
credibly broad range ofexperiences and knowledge.
(05:55):
It's so broad.
It's so broad.
So I've had to narrow that in mydevelopment, and the thing that
I like studying is classicaldressage.
And then I also, so some peoplemight know what this is, I was
exposed early on to the basichandle, which goes back to Monty
(06:16):
Foreman, and Which comes out ofthe military, the American
military tradition and FortRiley.
So if we hear about the Americanseat or the forward seat that I
got schooled really deeply inthat during my middle school,
high school years.
And if you don't know, MontyForeman was a American cavalry
(06:38):
officer.
He was one of the last.
And he, after he was out of themilitary, he did a lot of work
in the racing industry and polo.
And then also this was like backin the 50s and 60s when we were
first developing like theAmerican Stock Horse and the
American Stock HorseAssociation.
And but his big, I think likeinnovation to the horses was he
(07:00):
was the first person because hehad access to cameras in the
military back in the, 40s, likebefore civilians had cameras.
He was able to be one of thefirst to use slow motion
analysis of a writer's movementand balance and biomechanics to
(07:24):
really, really start aconversation, which is.
The big conversation or a bigconversation in the horse
industry now, which is like howa writer's energy movement and
own balance impacts the balanceand movement of the horse and
vice versa.
So, yeah, as you're mentioning.
(07:44):
Monty Thurman, I am reallyappreciating the saddle that you
found and helped me pick out.
It is saddles and is a balancedride saddle.
And I've been riding barebackfor the last five years because
the horse that I've been ridinggained so much weight that the
saddle didn't fit her, whichmakes sense.
And, but it fits, but now my newhorse has has filled out enough
(08:07):
that the saddle fits him.
And so to be back in that saddleand feel my body and that kind
of alignment has been wonderful.
Yeah.
So if people aren't familiar,Monty Foreman developed his own
stock saddle, so a Westernsaddle that fits more like an
all purpose English saddle.
So it puts you closer to thehorse and it.
(08:30):
What's your body in the sameposition your body might
naturally be in if you weresitting right back on the horse?
And so it, like, it is adifferent kind of experience
than, like, being in a big wadesaddle or a ranch saddle where
there's a lot of bulk, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Quite different.
Yeah.
(08:50):
Wow.
So yeah, we worked together.
You came and began teaching me.
And I remember, I remember thevery first thing that you did
with Sipsi is, is you stood inthe round pen with her, not in
the middle.
You just stood in there with herand I, I had no idea what was
going on and I watched youconnect with her and read her
(09:14):
and her read you and you lateryou explained all this to me.
And then the other thing thatyou did was you put a lead rope
on her and you just stood therewith the lead rope in your hand
for like 10 minutes.
That's right, because you, oh mygosh, I remember the energy of
that day too, like, because.
You've told this story on thepodcast I think in previous
(09:36):
episodes about her.
She had a thing with traumaThere was a block in her mind
and a block in your mind becauseof her block about ropes And so
we just sat there and kind oflike neutralized the charge
about ropes and it it took timeYeah, I remember asking like
(09:56):
what are you doing?
And you said I'm I'm telling herthat the rope is And you were
doing this energetically thatlike you were trying to
communicate through the ropethat the rope wouldn't hurt her
and that it was a learning tool.
And yeah, I just, I rememberthat.
And the other thing I rememberis getting headaches whenever
(10:19):
you came, I had this likepressure in my head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We had some breakthroughs aroundthat too.
And like, do you remember?
What you ended up connecting tothe headache trying to become
ready to learn and knowing thatI needed to open myself to, to
the knowledge and that, is thatwhat you remember?
(10:41):
You remember something else?
I remember something similar andI, but I remember it took us a
while, like it took a few monthsto get to that place and like,
every time we get together, theheadache would come up and we'd
sit with it and we'd sit with itand like, it would like.
We'd work with it a little biteach time.
Yeah.
It was hard to get open enoughto be able to absorb everything
(11:03):
that I wanted to learn from you.
I think it took both of us timein our relationship to learn.
It took me time to learn what itis that you wanted or needed to
learn from me, too.
And so that question became apart of our dance.
(11:24):
And I think, just simply, yeah,yeah.
I just, I know we have so muchto talk about, but this seems, I
think we have a lot of talkingpoints.
I think we're going to have morethan one conversation.
Yeah.
So let's take our time with it.
Awesome.
That's awesome.
So there was, there was aparticular lesson with my horse
(11:45):
pie, the the Mustang Appaloosagelding, who had a mind of his
own.
Like Like Alpalooza's do and,and you were teaching me to move
him forward.
And, and this horse was likesuch a war pony because every
time we would strategizesomething, he would come up with
a counter strategy.
(12:06):
So I was moving forward a fewsteps at a time and practicing
like keeping the doors keepingmy reins and my legs in a way
that I was.
Directing him with those andtrying to move forward, but then
I would look at where we were,and somehow, even though we were
(12:27):
moving forward, we would be wayback from where we were the
trajectory that we were tryingto make up.
That was a big metaphoricallearning day.
Like, we were so successful inhis learning that day, even
though he ended up shimmying andsquirreling and fidgeting
(12:47):
himself backwards in space.
Like, the mental forwardprogress was so much more
important than the physicalprogress.
Yeah, yeah.
And I I also remember becomingreally dysregulated on him and
he and I got in this loop andyou were witnessing it and yeah,
(13:08):
and, and you were aware of itbefore we started working
together.
You had that pattern really welldefined because it had been
happening before we startedpartnering.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And somehow the lesson becameabout.
I mean, I knew how to calmmyself down, but I didn't
realize how it was interactivewith the horse in a loop.
(13:31):
And somehow you got us throughthat.
I remember that lesson.
It felt more like therapy than ariding lesson.
Well, I think, okay, this is, Iguess we'll open this to like,
we've had this conversation alot where I've had to get clear
on defining what the scope ofour relationship is.
(13:54):
Because I'm not your therapistand I was, I'm not your clinical
supervisor, but I have thisknowledge and this training and
these skills.
And and I think one of ourmantras or one of my mantras
that I've developed out of ourtime together has been like,
well, like I can't preventtherapeutic things from
happening, you know, so.
If therapeutic things happenwhile I'm in a teaching role, I
(14:18):
can witness that, but I don'thave to be the therapist in
order for the therapy to happen.
Right.
For the healing to happen andthe learning to happen, the
growth to happen.
That is such a great pointbecause it really illustrates
(14:40):
what happens when we can't likethis, the power of witnessing.
Right.
Right.
And intention.
Yeah.
So not too long ago you sent mea a video with Dr.
Oh my gosh, I'm blanking on hisname.
The one that likened a horse'sMovement to it.
(15:01):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Dewey Friedman from the GestaltIturquain Institute.
So I got excited when I foundhis work and I sent that to you
partially because I think it'slike as a reference, if other
listeners are curious, likeit's, he does a really good job
of kind of explaining like whatthe work is energetically that's
(15:24):
happening in a very clinicalway.
And I'm familiar with some ofhis students, like Lisa Dion in
the play therapy world is knownfor creating a modality called
synergistic play therapy, whichworks with like interpersonal
neurobiology, but also workingwith the somatic experience of
(15:45):
the provider and the inner worldof the provider as being equally
important in the room.
And especially like when wework, maybe this is a good segue
to start talking about someneurobiology stuff.
As we're going to, as we'regoing to go into that, because I
felt like comparing andcontrasting the takeaway from
Dr.
Dewey and the takeaway fromRupert.
(16:08):
Isaacson are like they both.
We all know that there's thismagic.
We're all having the sameexperience, but they're
explaining it through sciencequite differently.
You know, one is neurosciencewith oxytocin in the hips and
the other is the thing thatyou're about to talk about.
So I think they're right.
Right.
Okay.
(16:28):
Well, Okay, let me back up thenand we'll get into more of like,
I'm going to put on my clinicalsupervisor hat a little bit
first and and maybe help laypeople understand why there
might be all of these competingcamps and schools.
And so.
In my job, as I'm trainingclinicians I have to adhere to
(16:51):
my professional ethics, and Ihave to adhere to the ethics
that are given to me by thelicensing bodies that allow me
to do the work that I do.
So for me, here in the state ofOregon Oregon adopts.
In the counseling world we adoptthe ACAF, Access to the American
Counseling Association.
And then there's also an ethicalcode that is very, very similar
(17:15):
for psychologists.
There's an ethical code for amarriage and family therapist.
There's an ethical code for.
Clinical social workers, andthey're all like overlap in lots
of ways, but they all have theirlittle tweaks and differences
that, like, make the differentprofessions what they are.
But, like, some of the universalprinciples, though, are going to
(17:39):
be things like do no harm.
And, or, you know, to respectyour client's identity without
bias or discrimination, orthings like that like the social
work world has a big focus onsocial justice, the marriage and
family world has a big focus ongroups and systems, and they use
(18:01):
a lot of systems theory, so it'smore about, like, how The way
that we move and interact in oursocial environment impacts our
identity and who we are thecounseling world has very much
like a, a growth mindset and ismore individually focused and is
really, really focused on howthe nature and dynamic of
(18:25):
relationship as the agent ofchange.
And then psychologists are morelike the clinical researchers.
They're going to be more likeapt to do assessments and
diagnosis and things like that.
That's a really simplebreakdown.
But one of the things, like Ihave an ethic to either practice
(18:45):
in an evidence based way or in atheory based way.
It can be both, but they'redifferent.
And what I offer my superviseesis a conversation and a clinical
supervision practice thatengages in reflective practice
and parallel process.
(19:05):
And I can define that too.
And we focus on theory, we focuson theory.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
So I just want to break thisdown for listeners a little bit
that are not as familiar withthe The jargon of.
Yes, we can.
We can go back and define allthese things.
So these different categoriesthat all have to do with ethics
(19:29):
for different job titles thatall kind of fall under that
broader category.
And these are good.
It's not just job titles.
This is different degrees.
Different areas of clinicalfocus, clinical focus.
Okay.
That's yeah.
So between and you and I havetalked about this a little bit.
(19:50):
And in the last interview, Kaiand I broached the subject, just
a little bit of theory based andevidence based and the
conversation that you and I havehad before that applies to this
and to the neuroscience is, isabout I had to do with insurance
also.
(20:11):
So that, well, yes.
Okay.
So this is my, this is like the,why are you not doing equine
therapy, Carissa?
My answer to that question.
Right.
And I've had to defend thatanswer so many times over my
career.
So yes, I am a horse person.
I'm deeply, deeply a horseperson and I am a therapist, but
(20:31):
I don't do equine therapy.
And, and my answer is always, Ican do more.
I can do more without.
I can do more as just ahorsemanship instructor than I
can as a therapist, and my scopeis bigger, and my, the range of
what a possibility gets biggerwhen I take off my therapeutic
(20:52):
lens, and this is why I believetheory is equally or more
important to understand as wemove forward as a field.
And I'm so adamant aboutteaching my supervisees their
theory.
They have to know their theoryin order to work with me.
And, and here's what happens.
(21:13):
So, evidence based practiceallows us to research.
Research is necessary.
In order to convince payers thatwhat we're doing is valuable and
worth the money that they giveus.
(21:34):
And so when we start talkingabout equine therapy as a
practice, all of a sudden, I amfaced with an ethical dilemma of
how do I get my clients accessto the experience and the care
that I know horses can provide.
(21:56):
And also feed myself and inorder to get paid, most clients,
the majority of people seekingservices, unless they are
incredibly privilegedeconomically, and I'm going to
put privilege out there.
So the majority of the peopleare not economically privileged
(22:16):
enough to access therapy withoutinsurance.
That's just the fact.
And, and actually it'sinteresting.
So I've worked in communitymental health, which serves the
Medicare, Medicaid population.
And I also work in a privategroup practice where we only
take private insurance.
And it's actually the privateinsurance community and my
(22:36):
community that's moreunderserved.
We have more providers for theMedicare, Medicaid than we do
for private insurance.
But to ask someone to pay my feeout of pocket for equine therapy
is just simply a barrier formost people.
(22:57):
And it breaks my heart that mostpeople cannot access horses
because money is a barrier.
When insurance gets involved,they want to know that what I'm
doing is evidence based.
And what that means is that theywant me.
(23:19):
They want me to create manualsand protocols.
They want me to create systemsand mechanize the work that I do
so that it can be consistent andmeasurable and things like that.
And there's, there is a value tothat because, yes, we need to be
able to say that what we'redoing is effective.
(23:42):
We need to have some measuresand goals and ways to measure
change.
I'm about to stir the pot.
I am stirring a professional potthat and I'm about to take a
stand on some things.
And so not all clinicians aregoing to agree with me on this.
And I respect the cliniciansthat are doing the best they can
to work in the system.
I'm also doing the best I can towork in the system.
(24:05):
The history of the insurancesystem and medical models of
mental health therapy is justdark, and it has, we are, I, I
came into a field about 15 yearsago when I first started doing
(24:26):
this work where Children werebeing treated with behavioral
interventions that causedrelational harm.
And if we think about horses asa metaphor, like, and I'm going
to keep bringing it back to thekids, because the kids are
(24:47):
innocent, the horses areinnocent.
This, this is the same traumathat many of us in the horse
industry hold, where we weretold to do it.
The way we were told to do it,we were told to kick harder,
pull harder, get that crap, makethem do it, make them mine, show
(25:08):
them who's boss.
And we were groomed to becomeabusers by the generation before
us.
And that was also happening inthe mental health industry in
relationship to clients who werethe most vulnerable and people
who are the most vulnerable.
(25:30):
And that's children.
And that's the chronicallymental ill.
And there's a history to thatthat goes back to before you and
I were born.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's goosebumps there.
And so, yes, thank you fortaking that stand.
And so, yeah, so for me, likethe simple answer is to say
(25:50):
like, I.
I have come to a place where,like, it is more important for
me to protect the integrity ofthe relationship that I have
with people and animals than itis to get paid, and I can't in
good conscious engage theinsurance system when it comes
(26:13):
to animal assisted work, becausethe risk of causing harm goes
up.
Whether it's.
And, and I'd rather stand inintegrity.
So I have my private practice.
I have my therapy practice, myoffice practice, where I am able
(26:35):
to do good things in the system.
And then I have my separatehorsemanship practice where I
can just be a space holder andthere's a more open, authentic
being.
That explanation makes so muchsense.
I mean, I know we've talkedabout this a little bit before
but the full, full breadth ofthat helps me really understand
(26:58):
why you do what you do.
Now, I, you know me, I'm alwaysthinking like, well, there must
be some, Easy answer.
Can't we just and like lastsummer when I was almost
involved with a couple ofnonprofits and doing a lot of
visioning and some writing andtalking to lots and lots of
(27:18):
people and trying to pull ideastogether.
One of the things that I came upwith, with a lot of help was Why
can't we do some studies?
I have a nonprofit cometogether, do some studies that
could become the evidence basedevidence that we need, like
around, for example, horses andpeople and anxiety.
(27:41):
Could we take people withanxiety studies?
Through a nonprofit, get a gradstudent who wants to do their
thesis on it to run it and pulltogether this documented,
scientific, measurableinformation on the benefits of
people with anxiety.
Yeah.
I am horses and move that where,where we can actually make a
(28:05):
change.
I mean, I know a lot of peoplewant to work with horses and
want to work with people andwant to work with nonprofits.
Why can't we tailor a lot ofthat into the system where I'm
going to call out, I'm going tocall out the field again.
So I work for a pretty, I workfor a pretty progressive
nonprofit right now, and thereare some conversations on the
(28:27):
edges of the field right nowabout why this is a challenge,
the history of the field, how,like, we really do need a
cultural change within systemsof care that are Allow us to
return back to our own humanity.
And I don't know how familiaryou you are with the
(28:52):
conversations coming out of themedical field right now.
What happened.
In the medical field and mentalhealth is a branch of that.
We work in the medical model.
Policy became more importantthan care.
Right?
And and so here's okay, reallyquick.
So, to answer your question,people have done that research
(29:14):
that research exists and.
And when I say we need a culturechange, I'm saying we need a
culture change because thespirit of capitalism has taken
that research and put it behinda certification paywall.
And so you have to attachyourself to a certification
(29:34):
process in order to say, I nowhold the information that allows
me to open the store.
Can you break that down in somelanguage that is a little bit
easier for people to understand?
Yes.
This goes back to professionalethics in order to introduce a
new kind of practice as ahealthcare provider.
(29:58):
into the work I do.
I have to demonstrate that I'vereceived adequate training and
supervision in that practicebefore I can just go for it.
So I study a lot of things andI'm trained in a lot of things,
but I can't actually do all ofthe things I know when I meet
(30:20):
with people because I have tostay within the scope of what
I've been trained and supervisedin.
So your, your hands are justtired.
Your hands are just tied.
Yes, yes, yes.
So, and so, and so, in order toaccess that training and
supervision that requires oftenthousands of dollars on my
(30:43):
behalf out of my personal money,just to open the door to say.
Here I can now offer this so inthis way, people that have
worked the way I have you knowwhat I've dabbled in and with
some of the people that Itrained with back in 2016 to be
(31:04):
able to hold the space and theintention.
And be the witness of whathappens with people and horses
without a degree, without alicense, without any of those
things that restrict you thatthe real work is being done.
That's I agree.
I agree.
Yeah.
(31:25):
And yeah.
Yeah.
It's just, and I, and I love thescience that validates the
magic.
I love, I love that science cansay, yes, there actually is
something happening here.
There is a phenomenon that'sreal.
And let's, let's go talk aboutthat with Dr.
Dewey and Rupert Isaacson andthe neuroscience that those two
(31:45):
have, even though they're notexactly on the same page,
they're both kind of saying thesame thing supported by a
different scientific theory,correct?
Right.
If we think about psychology,let me go back to the beginning.
So, psychology is young,psychology is only like, it's
less than 200 years old.
(32:05):
I mean, it's, it's young, it's ayoung, young science.
And psychology really does comeout of philosophy, right?
And it comes out of psychology.
Theoretically, I am very Jungianin my orientation and that's
where I pursue my continuingeducation, but out of necessity,
I got exposed to behavioralschools.
(32:27):
Because that is where it's easyto measure behavior.
It's really difficult to measurethe symbolic archetypal
influence of the unconsciousrising up out of the primal
materia of life.
You can't, it's harder toquantify that.
(32:48):
Yeah.
And because it's harder toresearch, it doesn't get looked
at.
And so what happened is likephilosophy, birth psychology,
and psychology turned also intolike the intersection of
(33:08):
psychology and biology becamethe field of neuroscience where
we studied the physical anatomyof what's happening in the brain
and the nervous.
When I was coming up, I wasexposed to Dan Siegel and people
who are familiar with WarwickSchiller and his work around
interpersonal neurobiology,polyvagal theory, and attachment
(33:28):
theory, he is talking about DanSiegel's work and he's talking
about Steve Porges work.
So Steve Porges, Dan Siegel areboth in this field of
interpersonal neurobiology.
So interpersonal neurobiology.
Is the study of the neuroscienceof relationship and the
(33:48):
beautiful thing that this doesis, and this is the
groundbreaking science that thisfield contributes, in my
opinion, is that it separatesacademically.
The brain and the mind becausethey are not the same and we
often confuse them and when Iwas coming up before this
(34:11):
definition was provided, therewas a big debate about where is
consciousness.
Is it in the brain or is itsomewhere else?
And this contribution says no,it's not.
It's it uses the brain.
It uses the nervous system, butit's something beyond that.
(34:34):
And so The mind in this field isdefined as the process and flow
of information between Peoplewill go into consciousness
studies and say, yes, likeconsciousness is maybe the
container for the mind, but themind is defined as a relational
(34:58):
process, not a thing.
So when I'm standing out in thefield with my horse and I start
to feel better and all theworries of the world start to
melt away, is it my mind?
Is it the horse's mind?
Is it, I don't know what it is,but there's a flow of
information happening that'screating change and it's that
(35:23):
flow of information that ismind.
That being true, I haveexperienced that.
I'm sure a lot of listeners haveexperienced what you're talking
about and most horse people thatare regulated and paying
attention have experienced that.
That in and of itself isn't IMeasurable.
(35:47):
And it isn't.
Yes.
What you can do with horsetherapy.
However, whatever it is you'redoing in horse therapy that is
measurable.
Also, that is present.
No, right.
Right.
So we have to play both games.
(36:07):
Like in order to stay within themedical model, we have to play
the both games.
We have to find again.
This is again where behavior ismeasurable and subjective
reporting of behavior has becomea valid way to measure change.
What that means is I can dothings like say on a scale of 0
to 10.
Like, where 0 is completely calmand 10 is the worst it could be,
(36:31):
what number would you rate youranxiety right now?
And that individual's answer isvalid.
And then, okay, okay, we'regoing to go do some things.
And at the end of our sessionwhere I'm going to ask you the
question again, now, on a scaleof 0 to 10, what number are you
now?
Oh, wow, I noticed.
You know, like I've had anexperiential process that has
(36:53):
now created a different way ofrelating to myself and the
environment and now I'mdifferent and I can put words to
that sometimes or I can putnumbers to it.
I can I can call that evidencebased.
We can't measure that.
We can't have insurance coverthat.
We can't make the magic thathappens with horses and people
(37:14):
in this field available Tell memore about how you feel like you
can't use what I just offered.
Because in a clinical setting,that would be, like, a I could
create a goal for the sake ofthe insurance company that says
client's current baseline is an8 out of 10.
(37:34):
Like their, their subjectiveexperience of their own reality
is an 8 out of 10 on whateverscale that we create or define.
And we want to get it down to afunctioning level, which they
decide is maybe like a four outof 10.
I can cope with that.
(37:57):
So that, that we can createevidence based.
Material with that, we can make,we can make goals with that.
We can make goals with that.
We can, we can create measurablegoals.
But that's different thansaying, I'm using an evidence
based practice.
in my therapy.
(38:20):
So, for example, like EMDR getstalked about in the horse world
a lot.
EMDR has a very strict protocolwith eight phases to it and you
do things in a very specificorder and a very specific, you
know, like step by step process.
And if you deviate from thatprotocol, then you are not
(38:41):
practicing to fidelity.
And now I cannot get paid.
Horses don't operate that way.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
I can, I can sometimes, like, Ican sometimes get my adult
clients to operate that way.
And children don't operate thatway.
(39:04):
Children don't operate, but yetI, like, we still have built
insurance for providing care tochildren.
Yeah, it, it becomes really,really convoluted.
So, what do you think aboutRupert Isaacson's idea?
with the hips, you know, wherehe went to the neuroscientists
after horse boy.
(39:25):
And that's in a previous episodefor people who want to listen to
the interview with him.
And he's an author and there's amovie called horse boy, and it
all comes down to theneuroscience.
After the fact, after all theshamanism is.
moving the hips releasesoxytocin, which increases the
ability of autistic children oranybody to learn and feel good.
(39:49):
And it kind of barrier.
And Dewey says something alittle bit different about that.
I'm trying to remember exactlywhat he said.
Yes.
Okay.
So this is where again, knowingyour theory is important.
They're giving these twodifferent people are going to
give Different answers to thesame question, because they're
looking through a different lensto provide that answer.
(40:13):
And, and this is again, likewhere I get curious about like
how different theories mightinfluence my perspective and my
perspective of health and changein a particular situation.
So Rupert Isaacson is working alot with, yes, the, the actual
physical neuroscience of thebody.
(40:35):
And it is pointing to theneurochemicals as the agent of
change.
And what I know about DeweyFreeman, and just like, and I'm,
I haven't studied or trainedwith him, but what I know about
gestalt therapy, and what I knowabout, The theory of gestalt,
(40:56):
which does work with the ideathat we get these blocking
beliefs through experience inutero and, and I come more from
an object relations school inthe work that I do, which is
again this idea that we getconditioned to you.
(41:17):
Believe that the world is anunsafe place, or we get
conditioned in a pre verbalwindow of development through
experience in relationship tolearn that maybe we're unworthy
of love, or that we're going tobe abandoned.
Or that the world isn't safe, orthat other people aren't safe.
(41:40):
And we, we, these experiencesthen translate into operating
beliefs that then define how wemove through the world.
And so, and so.
If we take, again, like sittingon the back of the horse and
having our pelvis moved, we cango to the occupational therapy
(42:02):
world and say, Oh, I'mactivating and regulating the
proprioceptive system.
And then we get Rupert Isaacsonsaying, Oh, yeah, that's
happening.
But no, no, no, it's really theoxytocin.
And then, you know, DeweyFriedman, the Gestalt therapist
is going to come along and say,Oh, no, no, no.
Yeah, that's happening.
And really the agent of changeis.
(42:25):
Having a relational experiencethat changes these operating
belief systems.
And then here I am saying, Idon't know.
I'm just going to dive into themystery of it all and get
curious about what happens.
But what I know is that when Iengage in the archetype of the
horse, and I allow myself toembody the archetype of human,
(42:50):
and we come together, goodthings happen.
Yeah, magic happens.
So, yeah.
And I think Like, maybe, I knowthere's been a lot of, like,
talk on social media recently,and there seems to be this,
like, debate between old school,new school, or more old school
(43:14):
classical conditioning versus Rplus reward relationship
therapy, like, the only positivereinforcement, like.
Again, like, to even justentertain the idea of, like,
positive reinforcement andflooding theory and conditioning
and operant conditioning and allthat, you have to know that that
(43:36):
is the language that comes outof the behavioral school of
psychology.
So, again, you're As applied tohorse training is what you're
talking about as applied toanimal behavior?
Yes.
And, and that same, those sameideas are applied to and this is
where things get dark becauseit's those same ideas that are
(43:56):
applied to the kinds of,residential programs that the
indigenous people were appliedinto that then stripped them of
their culture.
So it can be used for harm, butdraw some more parallels.
Yeah, I took a big loss.
(44:17):
I know I took a really big jump.
I took a really big job.
Yeah, let's break that.
So this behavioral school, theidea of operant conditioning,
the idea of positivereinforcement, negative
reinforcement, things like that,comes out of a behavioral school
of psychology.
And it goes back to people likeB.
F.
Skinner.
(44:37):
And B.
F.
Skinner's research was used bythe U.
S.
government.
To create schools for theindigenous children that were
taken from their parents andplaced in boarding schools and
foster homes and then strippedof their culture.
So, the thing that is beingpointed at right now is
(44:59):
progressive in the equine worldbecause it is a step away from
manipulation and harm andbullying.
Was also used in history tocause harm to people.
What is a step away?
Let's look at the history of thehorse industry.
So I came up in the 80s and 90s.
(45:21):
And so I was, I was raisedriding the million dollar Arabs
of the 70s, where the horseindustry had this huge heyday
and this big boom.
And the show world became very,very, very lucrative.
(45:45):
And horses were a hot commodityand the competition became so
fierce that it was standardpractice to abuse and drug
horses in order to get thepaycheck.
And I'm just going to say that Icame up in the reining industry
in the 90s and had to step awaybecause I saw too many horses
(46:08):
break down.
And at the same barn that I wastraining out of, I watched
horses in the saddle seatindustry flip over and die.
On a regular.
Because of the stand, you know,and no one questioned what was
going on at the time because themoney was too good.
Wow.
(46:31):
That's a heck of a history.
It's the same thing that peopleare challenging now with the
racing industry.
You know, like we just had apretty major racetrack in
California closed down.
And yes, there's now likegenerations of people that are
out of work because of that.
(46:51):
But that racetrack was measuringits progress and change by
trying to reduce the number offatal breakdowns on the track.
If you don't know what a fatalbreakdown is, that's when a
horse gives that physically inthe middle of a race and dies in
the race.
Oh my God.
Like So, I mean, this, this isthe extent of the abuse.
(47:15):
We have gotten that far awayfrom what is humane because the
money was so good.
And now we have lots of people,including myself and you
speaking out against this.
Yes.
And sometimes We get sopassionate and upset and angry
(47:35):
at what's happening that we canlose sight not so much you but
I'm probably a little bit guiltyof this and I know some other
people are of pointing fingers.
To the extent that we becomepart of the problem.
Can you, can you speak to that?
Yes.
And, and that I will, I'm goingto speak generally because I
(47:56):
think that's a natural stage inthe healing process when you're
recovering from the abuse cycleand the cycle of violence.
And, and there's a word for thatclinically in the domestic
violence world.
We talk about how sometimes thevictims of domestic violence
also get tangled in a legalprocess where they are also a
(48:17):
perpetrator because the.
The amount of energy necessaryto stand up to the abuse becomes
reactive and somewhat harmful tothe person they're standing up
to.
(48:38):
So it's like the eye for an eye,you hit me, I'm going to hit you
back.
And.
And that can be really, reallydisorienting to face within
yourself when the story thatyou've been living is that you
have been abused and you havebeen hurt and you have been
victimized for so long, and youfinally find enough power to
(49:02):
step out of a freeze response orfawning response and fight back.
I mean, we love movies that dothat.
Yeah, we love justice.
We want justice.
It's justifiable.
We don't want people to beabused.
We want them to be empowered.
(49:23):
Yes.
And forces to be abused.
You want people to treat themdifferently.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the road to doing that with,with education and positive
feedback is so long and hard.
And I'm constantly reading thesethings on Facebook by people who
are calling other people out.
(49:44):
And, you know, I want to say,sometimes I do say like, can't
we just get an organization thatyou can call and go in there and
get these people educated.
Because that's what it takes,but we don't have that standard.
We don't have that agreement.
We, we're a long ways away frombeing there, but we do have this
(50:05):
permeated problem of horsesbeing abused because people
don't understand or becausepeople are dysregulated.
And another thing that is beingtalked about a lot is like
people are not attuned to theemotional well being or to the
emotional world of the animal.
(50:26):
And so they're lacking empathywhich is scary because a lack of
empathy is what defines thingslike psychopathy.
And it's difficult to beencountered that potential
within yourself.
Yeah, it's, it's difficult to,I, I know that sometimes I
encounter people who have areally defined spiritual
(50:47):
practice.
Maybe they're vegetarian,they're vegan, they're animal
rights activists, and then thehorse exposes the predator in
them, and they didn't know itwas there.
They didn't know that thatnature was dormant within them.
And then their own capacity tomanipulate and control is
(51:09):
exposed.
And then they have to face thatwithin themselves.
It's much, much easier to avoidthat reality.
And say, well, I'm going to gobecome religious in my
horsemanship.
And I'm only going to use thesemethods which are evidence based
that are proven to cause noharm.
(51:29):
And if I just do it right, thenI'll be good enough.
Okay.
And I won't, and I won't have toconfront the totality of what it
means to be human.
Right.
Okay.
So I want to comment on this abit because when you and I have
watched and traded back andforth, watching some training
videos, there are things thathappen.
(51:49):
And I know there's somethingthat happens inside me because
there's a place where we'retrying to become a leader.
A benevolent leader, but there'sall of this dominance and
there's all this tradition ofdominance that we were just and
and there's fear.
These are large animals and whenwe start to become, you said
(52:11):
something and I, I didn't latchonto the phrase or the word that
you said, but it's likesomething becomes exposed.
In us that is unpleasant, but itcomes from a place of trying you
have so much wisdom and there'sso much there.
Sometimes I just get full andwe've been talking for a little
bit.
So I want to hear that partagain about what's the box and
(52:35):
then what's there and what'sallowed out that is acceptable.
can you say that again?
Society conditions us and welearn that some things are okay
to show.
And some things are not okay toshow unless So the mask is what
we learn is okay to show and,and there's things that we learn
(53:02):
and it might be different indifferent contexts.
It might be different indifferent relationships.
Sure, you know, so what's okayto show in my home may not be
the same as what's okay to showat work.
Or in public.
And, and we can break down thatprinciple in so many different
(53:25):
ways and give lots of examplesof how that shows up in society.
Like, it's a big conversationright now in the adolescent
development world is the, thequestion about gender identity,
like, what is okay to show inthe bodies we are given and, and
is it okay to show somethingOther than what aligns with what
(53:50):
people imagine is connected todifferent biological sexes and
biological expressions.
Okay.
That's I mean, that's anexample.
So.
Everything we learn that's notokay to show goes into our
shadow.
(54:11):
And some of that goes in thereunconsciously, and some of it
goes there consciously.
So an example of that might beif I'm hypothetically out
dating, and I really like thisperson, and the person on the
date says, I'm a vegetarian, Imight put in the shadow for a
(54:36):
little while that I eat meat.
Conforming.
Yeah, yeah.
And then other things getconditioned and go in the shadow
because through unconsciousprocesses, some of the things in
the shadow are untappedpotential.
(54:58):
So it's not all negative things.
It's just.
It's just unseen things.
It's just hidden things.
And, and there's a whole, like,lineage of people that have
talked about how we can findgold in the shadows.
It's worth going into the darkplaces, because there are things
in there that are worthy ofbeing redeemed.
(55:20):
Absolutely.
I want to bring shame into that.
And I want to bring horses intothat conversation because,
because there's a way there's away that some people without a
license, because if you have alicense, you're not supposed to
do this kind of stuff canidentify or have a superpower of
identifying.
(55:41):
Those areas of shame that are inthe shadow that can actually
bring forth these really goodthings but, but our culture
doesn't deal with that.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
And the horse has a way ofholding space.
And somehow, in my experience,knows or helps bring these
(56:02):
things forward too.
Because they have no judgment.
MacBook Air Microphone & Face (56:07):
I am doing a pause here for part
two because Carissa and myconversation continued and also
didn't finish.
So we're going to record thesecond part that will start
right after this.
So please tune in for the restof this conversation.
I hope that you are enjoying itas much as I am.
(56:28):
I've waited so long to interviewher and it feels like the most
important conversation of thewhole podcast.
Thanks for tuning in.
They have, okay, and, and thisis where, like, okay, the book,
Evidence Based Horsemanship withMartin Black and the other guy
is it Stephen Peters?
(56:48):
I don't remember.
But the evidence basedhorsemanship book that goes into
the neuroanatomy of the horse'sbrain, where we've learned that
horses don't have a prefrontalcortex, I can point to that from
my understanding ofdevelopmental neuroscience and
interpersonal neurobiology andsay, like, Oh, wow.
(57:11):
A horse doesn't have aprefrontal cortex.
That is the seat of abstractthought and language and
reasoning.
And so, if I connect that backup to the idea that Dewey
Friedman put forward in hispodcast that recently came out,
where he says, like, yes, wehave these operating beliefs
(57:33):
that tell us That maybe we'renot worthy or we're bad or we're
broken.
Horses literally don't have thehardware to have those beliefs,
but what they do have is alimbic system and a whole lot of
empathy, exactly.
And that's like.
The work of Pak Yongsep and thefunctions of the limbic system
(57:58):
and the circuits that areavailable to us there is the
place where we experiencerelational change.
It's not always through thebelief, it's through the
embodiment and the experienceand the emotionality of it.
(58:21):
Through the heart centeredplace.
That's where the shifts happen.
I believe.
Yeah.
No, I've seen it.
I believe.
I've experienced it.
I know.
I mean, I know this is the, thisis part of the magic we're
talking about that isn't justexplained by the neuroscience.
But I mean, it is, but it's not.
Right, we have, we have enoughscience now to, to measure the
(58:45):
electrical magnetic field of theheart.
We have enough science now to,like, do the fMRI imaging and
things like that to define thesecircuits.
We have enough science now toput language to the electrical
phenomena happening in the body.
That electrical phenomena is areflection.
In the physical world of back toDan Siegel's definition of mind,
(59:11):
the process and flow ofinformation between two beings.
Okay, so my mind's just going tothis thing that I, that I heard
that we've talked about that isa very maybe Oversimplification
of what we've just been talkingabout, and that is that the
horse can.
This is the reason the horse canbecome a surrogate to heal a
(59:34):
trauma that happened in a humanto human relationship.
Yeah, I, I think that.
If I'm gonna add to that, Ithink one of my theories about
that is that associationsmatter.
In my work with people withcomplex trauma like in the
(59:55):
trauma recovery world, there'slots of isms.
And one of the isms is that it'svery difficult to heal in the
place that hurt you.
And so for those of us who'veexperienced social environments
that are chronicallyinvalidating and chronically
(01:00:17):
creating relational wounds.
Or you're existing inrelationship with someone who,
like, just is so stuck in theirown stuff that they're not
healing, growing or changingsometimes, like, We need to
remove some of the humanvariable and we can still
(01:00:38):
experience relational thingswithout the association.
Of the human, like, of beinghuman.
Because I do believe, and I havemet and encountered people who
have just been so hurt by life,by, and so hurt by humanity,
(01:01:01):
that, that I cannot look them inthe eyes and tell them It's
gonna be okay, and that theywon't be hurt again.
The reality, the heavy realityis that, yeah, humans are really
nasty creatures sometimes.
And when people are hurting,they hurt other people.
(01:01:25):
Hurt people hurt people.
And what a gift to be able tohave a moment in time where
you're connected and held andattuned to by another being
that's not hurting you the sameway that you've been hurt.
(01:01:45):
And is actually incapable of alot of that.
Yeah, and I might not be thatbeing and that's okay.
Yeah, the horse as a surrogateand the horse holding that space
and like the palpable way that Ihave experienced feeling the
(01:02:11):
electromagnetic field of theirhearts.
Magnet magnified by like howmany of them there might be like
with a higher herd in Canada, orso this is where I wonder too,
is like the untapped potentialof wild horses.
Oh my gosh, to be able to formthat electromagnetic field and
(01:02:37):
make such a huge difference,especially with people that fit
into what you're just describingis so incredibly powerful.
And and yet these beautifulcreatures with that kind of
potential are slaughtered andstarved and not cared for.
(01:03:06):
And if we don't manage thepopulations, then we're going to
lose all of them, the reality ofthat.
I wonder if that, like, sothere's, I'm going to, I'm going
to back up and kind of recap,because that's being an advocate
(01:03:26):
for the horse for the horse.
There are ways that we can beadvocates for the horses that
are perhaps lucky enough to bein captivity in a good way.
I think I'm going to pivot awayfrom the mental health world
and, but I'm going to stay withthe storytelling and the mythic
(01:03:48):
world and the place my mind goeswhen you bring that up is to the
history, the long, long historyof relationship that we have
with horses and the history ofdomestication and what it means
to be in relationship with thedomesticated animal and the
story of the American Mustang.
(01:04:09):
Okay.
Like that's big, it is really,it is really big, but you know
what, it's a parallel to it'salso, isn't that also a parallel
to the colonization anddecolonization and solvency 100
percent we were going to talkabout, yeah, 100 percent like
it's so like, I mean, if we lookat the history of what it means
(01:04:33):
to be human, like, especially Iwas having a conversation with
some colleagues of mine, and wewere talking about the influence
of colonization on the mentalhealth world and the influence
of colonization on just what itmeans to be human in society
right now in the political timesthat we're in, like, so, I mean,
(01:04:54):
this, this, this is up and.
And the horses have traveledwith us and lived this with us
for thousands of years.
They have not, they know thestory because they've lived it
with us.
Like if we think aboutgenerational trauma and
generational healing and workingwith the ancestors and working
(01:05:16):
with the reality that Most of ushere in America come out of
immigrant families, and mostimmigrant families, like, my
family, I have branches of myfamily that have immigrated to
America going back to the 1600sduring the mass migration from
(01:05:37):
Europe, and then I have morerecent immigrants in my family,
but we're all escaping war andpoverty and famine and hardship
and trauma and genocide.
Right.
That's in our DNA.
And the horses have traveledwith us through that, and
they've experienced it alongsideus.
(01:05:58):
And so what we see happening inthe horse industry is also
happening to humanity.
Samson Q2U Microphone & Face (01:06:04):
We decided to pause our
conversation here, so that's theend of part one, and there is a
part two.
Stay tuned.
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