March 27, 2025 • 44 mins
Im sure you will want to finish listening. This lady is one of my favorite people to talk to- these conversations are too good not to share, hint hint & please subscibe or follow- AND TELL YOUR PEPES
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hi, this is Ishiba with theHorse Human Connection Matrix,
and I have Carissa with me againfor our Part two, and we're
gonna pick up some of theconversation that we were having
about.
Let's start with the bullyingand the shadow side, kind of
where we left off.
(00:21):
And yeah, we, we really did kindof end on a, kind of a deep note
and talking about the shadowside of the horse industry and
so.
I think for the sake of thisrecorded conversation, it might
be helpful to set up some of thecontext around this bullying and
(00:42):
the horse industry like thing.
I'm gonna recap some things, solike, oh.
If I take us back down to whereI felt like we were, and I'm,
I'm searching my own psyche forsome archetypes to kind of like
hold on to'cause we really arethat deep.
(01:02):
I think we were havingconversations about the.
Difference between like atheory-based clinical approach
and an evidence-based clinicalapproach.
And, and maybe it's more of likethe theory versus the method
conversation, and that openedthe door to my critique of the
(01:29):
very behavioral.
Approach to psychology in thehorse industry.
There's more to psychology thanjust the behavioral science part
of it.
And so what a lot of people areexposed to right now in the
(01:50):
animal science, behavioralscience world is the influence
of the behavioral school.
Which has a dark history and ithas a political history, and
it's not something that I amcomfortable with practicing
(02:11):
because of that history.
And so my psychological andfield radical orientation is
more in the humanistic schoolsand the depth psychology
schools.
So more of like the, the personcentered, humanistic school of
psychology, which is kinda likea cousin or a sister to yian
(02:33):
depth psychology.
And it also has its own shadow.
It has its limits.
It's also like we could unpackthat in a different
conversation, but I feel morecomfortable personally in that
world than I do in thebehavioral science world.
(02:54):
So.
We were talking about how, liketheory is important because it,
it informs how you answer thequestions in front of you and it
informs how you're gonnainterpret the behavior in front
of you.
So okay.
Is that, is attachment, isattachment theory part of
(03:15):
theory.
Yes.
I mean there's lots of theories,right?
Definitely.
Yes.
So that's one of the theoriesand attachment theory kind of
gets adopted into multipleschools of psychology.
It's, and I know about itbecause of my training in family
systems theory in emotionfocused therapy, and it's also
(03:37):
very big in the early childhooddevelopment world.
And so like attachment theory,this is, this is where you hear
like the basics of attachmenttheory.
Is that what happens in thefirst early relationships that
you have in life?
Mm-hmm.
Kind of create a blueprint forhow you engage in relationships
(03:59):
later in life.
So if you have a secure base,and we talk about this a lot, so
if you have a secure baseattachment relationship with
your caregivers as a baby, as aninfant, as a child, it's really
like the first five to sevenyears of life that are pretty
formative there.
(04:22):
You are more likely to have.
Harmonious relationship and beable to regulate yourself in
relationship later in life.
Okay, so we were talking aboutattachment theory and, and like
the basics of it.
And so like there's this ideasof different attachment styles
(04:42):
and you can learn about that anduse that to explore intimate
relationship and, and like.
Because of the implications ofthe neuroscience of human animal
bond theory and interpersonalneurobiology, we can say that we
have attachment relationshipswith our horses too.
Mm-hmm.
And that we are gonna play outthose implicit, unconscious
(05:07):
relationship patterns with ouranimals too.
We're not on the topic of thebullying yet.
That's, I think that that'simportant because Yeah, the
thing that came up, I shared, Istarted interacting and
commenting on a Facebook video,and then I asked you to look at
it and look at the comments andyou had.
(05:29):
You had some good perspective onit because your eye is so much
more trained.
You've been trained in so manymore disciplines and it was,
there was some bullying that washappening.
People were calling these peopleabusive and lots of them were
doing it, and some of them weredoing it really aggressively.
In fact, one of them had apicture of a gun point I'm gonna
(05:52):
do to you what you do to animalswith this like barrel of a gun
picture in the comments.
And I was just like, take thatgun off me.
What you're just as bad as theyare.
And I know that I've gottenangry about stuff before too,
and you're always so good tolike say, well hold on.
You know, there's the right wayto do this and you're so patient
(06:12):
and tolerant with people atdifferent levels of learning and
I just appreciate that.
Yeah.
So we had this conversation,this was earlier today, and we
were, there was also peoplejumping on and saying, oh, this
poster is so egotistical thatrider is so egotistical and, and
(06:33):
there's something about beingegotistical that's now been
demonized in the horse world.
And rightly so, because again,if we think about the history of
the development.
Of the horse industry, and Ithink back a few decades, there
was very much a need to callpeople out for being egotistical
(06:56):
and abusive.
Like there was very much a needto have that conversation and to
have definitions of whatconstitutes abuse.
And there was very much a needto challenge the egos of pretty
successful trainers.
Who would get in there and justand force a horse into a, a
(07:21):
frame and force it to go around.
And you could tell these horseswere just tight and tense and
angry and resentful.
So I mean, there was a need forthat in the past.
And there's, I think.
Because new people continue tocome to horses, there will
always continue to be a need tohave that conversation.
(07:43):
And to have a conversation abouthow deeply horses reveal
ourselves and how deeply theyare capable of mirroring us.
And, and they will expose.
The all sorts of things,including the things that maybe
(08:09):
we deny or hide about ourself,including being manipulative and
being egotistical and being,like being forceful and things
like that.
So.
If I touch back down to.
(08:29):
Why it's so important for me tonot engage the behavioral school
of psychology when I step intospaces with horses.
And I got to the point where inthis first conversation that we
had, I found myself kind ofsurprised of how strongly I was
protecting the space againstthat influence and, and.
(08:54):
Stepped away from my previousconversation feeling pretty
justified in how protective Iwas being by saying, no, I can't
let this into the circle.
I cannot let this into thespace.
I must protect the integrity ofthe space that I have with the
horse.
(09:15):
Protect it, protect it from.
Behavioral psychology, like wejust wanna be really clear.
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
And, and the reason why isbecause, and I said this and I,
and let's unpack this, like thatis the school of psychology that
has been used by governments tooppress people.
(09:38):
And it, in horse training, it'sused.
A, a parallel is used to oppresshorses, but that's not what
you're saying.
You're saying that you wannakeep that away from horse
therapy or away from your mindwhen you're interacting with the
horse?
I think definitely from my mindwhen I'm act interacting with
(09:58):
the horse, and I think this islike probably a really personal
conversation because.
A lot of the work that I doprofessionally is around works
of decolonization and aroundworks of like engaging
(10:21):
liberation psychology andliberation theology and things
like that.
The path that I am onpersonally.
Is one of questioning andchallenging patriarchy.
Mm-hmm.
Which is a very, very normalstage of feminine development.
(10:47):
We are born into a world, we'reconditioned by that world.
And then we rise up and areconscious enough to realize how
deeply we've been manipulated ashumans and as women.
Yeah.
And, and the horses have beentoo.
(11:08):
And so that is a meeting place,and I would prefer to meet the
horses in that space and havethem be my teachers in that
space than I would in insteadof.
Studying the systems of positivereinforcement and targeting and
shaping and all those things.
Is it okay?
There's a lot there, Carissa.
(11:29):
Hold on.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Because I opened a really bigdoor.
Is is it?
Is it fair?
Is it is?
We're talking about patriarchy.
Is it fair to put a lot of horsetraining methods and liken them
to patriarchy?
Is that fair?
Yes.
(11:50):
And, and I'm saying, what I'msaying is that I think one of
the re Well, yes, I mean, and ifwe think about the history of
horsemanship, like women werenot allowed to ride a stride
until the late 18 hundreds.
We were not even allowed to bein some cultures on the back of
a horse in some cultures, right.
(12:12):
Well, and I'm, I'm speaking towest dominant Western culture.
Okay.
Which most of us listening, mostof the people listening to this
podcast mm-hmm.
Are coming from that culture.
You and I come from thatculture.
Right.
And that, so that's fair.
So the other, the other thingthat you were saying there, that
you want to keep.
Out of your mind when you'rewith the horses, the things the
(12:34):
train, like click clickertraining, and only positive
reinforcement.
Because as you were teaching mewhen you used to come out and
give me mm-hmm.
Lessons and we would meet, wehad some conversations about
clicker training and it, andbeing able to use it as a tool
if you have a relationship basedtraining in place, but by
(12:54):
itself, it.
It would run into some problems.
And so you're also like mm-hmm.
The clicker training and onlypositive reinforcement because
now we know because horse,brain, human brain, that horses
actually have six differentmodes of learning.
You're saying that those arepart of the behavioral
psychology also, that you wantto stay away from, keep out of
(13:15):
your brain while you're withhorses and in that space.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Yes, and, and partly becausebehavioral psychology is a
patriarchal dominated field.
It is, it is a very masculinemethod, and I'm saying masculine
and kind of the more classicallike ying yang sense of the word
(13:37):
masculine.
It's, it's a top down approachwhere there is a hierarchy.
There is dominance in influenceand I'm more interested in
relating to nature and relatingto the world, and engaging with
the world from a more likeegalitarian circle, feminine
(14:00):
space bottom up.
Yeah.
Starting organic and thenmanifesting to the mind as the
last, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I will say like, that'sjust my bias.
And, and I'm saying like, I knowthat I have my personal
experiences that influence thatbias.
Right?
Owning that and knowing thatyou're looking at it through a
(14:22):
lens, but it's the right lensfor you to have on.
And it might be the, it mightnot be the right lens for
someone else.
And I understand, like I dowanna say that I.
Believe that the behavioralsciences have progressed the
(14:42):
conversation in horsemanship inmy lifetime, in a positive
direction.
Mm-hmm.
And it's limited in what it canaccomplish.
It's limited in its scope.
And, and yet, like earlier todaywhen we were looking at that
video, you were really defendingsome of those methods that from
(15:03):
my lens, which is not nearly aseducated as yours is from my
lens, were looking questionablewhen you're yanking a horse's
neck and it looks like it couldbreak its neck and the horse is
flipping over backwards and it'sall, but it didn't, so it, it
did not flip over backwards.
(15:24):
The horse did not flip over.
Okay.
So in the video, what I rememberseeing in the video was there
was the comment in the subtextof the, the video was that there
was a loose horse that was nothalter broke, but it had a
halter and leader up on it,right?
And it was loose and a big openfield kind of on the boundary
(15:45):
line of like undeveloped openland in a suburb.
Well, I saw three.
I saw three different clips.
Right.
So I think, yeah, like this isworth talking about too.
I mean, we're talking aboutperceptions, we're talking about
lenses that we look through.
We're talking about Yes, biases.
Yes.
All of these, like this is anexample of all of those things.
(16:07):
It's also an example of topdown, bottom up.
It's an example of feminine.
It's an example of patriarchy.
It's all of these things.
In this example, right?
It's gonna get complicatedbecause I'm also stepping in and
saying like, I think what we sawin that video was a healthy, top
(16:27):
down, patriarchal, masculineaction, intervening to prevent
chaos.
Okay.
And I'm gonna say I'm not surewe're seeing the same thing
because Yeah, there was thefirst scene, there is a horse
being lassoed.
Yes.
That has something on its face.
Yes.
It's blurry.
And there's a house, like thehorse is right next to a house.
(16:49):
You can see Right.
The house in the background.
And what I saw was the horse'sneck move and then the horse, I
didn't see it hit the ground,but I saw it come up off the
ground in a very contorted.
Like airborne thing and then itcuts to a different Yes.
Then it cuts to a differentscene, which is the middle scene
and it's a different horse and adifferent rider.
(17:10):
I.
That are lassoing.
I don't know if it is.
I it may have been.
It is because the man has a redshirt, a different camera.
Well maybe it's the same Oh.
But a different day.
'cause he's wearing a red shirtand one and a and a in a and a
blue shirt in the, in the otherone.
And Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Scene that you see.
Is it there?
It's again, kind of blurry.
(17:31):
There's a pasture and thenthere's a road and you can't
tell because it's blurry.
If there's a fence between thepasture and the road got and the
horse is again, beating last,and your attention is on the
action, but you are aware of thebackground.
And then the final scene is likefrom a GoPro where you're seeing
the ears of a horse.
(17:51):
You know, from the writer'sperspective, and he is not suing
another horse with a halter anda lead rope flying, right?
It's open desert.
There's no house.
There's no road.
It is just a desert scene.
Which could have, right.
Okay.
So there's three clips back toback to back and it's exit
sequence.
I think the clip that is gettingthe most attention in the
(18:14):
comments and that maybe elicitsthe most energy, is that first
one.
Mm-hmm.
And, and what I saw was someone,like someone, there was a person
roping a horse.
What I saw is that they threw anoverhand loop, and I, I think,
(18:39):
like I, I'm not as much of anexpert in roping to know the
name of the type of the loop hethrew, but he, he threw an
overhand loop.
And when you catch a horse andrope a horse, you have to throw
the root, the loop over thehorse, the top of the horse's
head, and then you want it tofall down.
Over their face and onto theirchest, which is what happened.
(19:00):
And what I saw happen is whenthe top of the rope made contact
with the top of that horse'sneck, it fought it and reared up
into it.
At the same time, the loop isclosing and tightening and the
guy dials off because he needsthe leverage of another horse.
(19:24):
To stop this animal and it stopsbefore we know what happens
next.
So we don't know where therelease of pressure is coming
from for this horse or if itcomes at all, right?
But what we do know is what Isee is.
(19:49):
A horse moving and a horse andrider moving in parallel with
it.
So they're moving together, therope lands on the horse, reacts
to the rope, and then is, andthen, and then it's tethered to
another horse.
That's all I know.
(20:12):
But because, and, and this is,this is something too, so like.
Nature is violent.
Mm-hmm.
The horse fought.
Right.
And we don't know the beforestory or the after story.
Right.
All we're doing is these threeshort things, which is really
interesting.
Right, right, right.
The conversations that come into me, it's like I'm not.
(20:36):
I mean, I was judging it alittle bit when I first saw, but
as I started to interact withthe, the postings, I found
myself asking questions, youknow, being curious, calling
other people out and offering,like somebody said something,
well, there's no other way tocatch a wild horse in a pasture.
Which of course was thisopportunity for me to, you know,
describe a way to do that, whichthen got a whole lot of
(20:58):
attention.
You know, and it may have been alittle bit off subject, but what
I loved about the whole thing isthat it was.
The video caused theconversations that I wanna see
happen.
Yes, yes.
And I watch, it was reallylovely to watch you step up and
engage that conversation.
There has been kind of acollective evolution.
(21:22):
Especially since TikTok andCovid and everyone has been on
social media, I'm gonna go backa few decades again.
Early two thousands, that's whenI first got introduced to the
pellis and natural horsemanshipas a concept.
I had already learned quite afew other things from other
(21:45):
people and, I.
Remember the conversation backthen was a respect for what the
Perellis were doing becauseagain, they were creating a
pathway of invitation andlearning to help new people
(22:07):
enter the horse world.
But those of us who were alreadythere.
Saw how shortsighted theirteachings were.
And even back then, people werepredicting that natural
horsemanship as a movement had ashort, it was gonna have a short
lifespan because it, again, was,was a strict application of a
(22:33):
method.
And there's interviews out therewith the pearls where they say,
yeah, we're behaviorals.
And they, they cite and studylike BF Skinner and things like
that.
And they're doing what they canto change people's behavior in
relationship to horses, which Ithink was, has a limited effect
(22:57):
to it.
But at the same time, theyforgot.
A lot of the things that thoseof us who are generational horse
families have learned.
Mm-hmm.
It is, you're right.
(23:17):
It is the same conversation withsome different nuances.
And you and I have talked aboutthese training methods and about
clinicians and you know what myproblem is with all of it too,
but I mean, I just think, andmaybe this is part of my
autistic lens, but I think a lotof people that are doing.
Like the YouTube videos andteaching the clinics, I the
(23:40):
whole setup seems wrong becauseyou're in front of people.
In order to do these things withthe horse, you, you need to have
an open heart.
Like that's a big part of what Isee going on is not just like
the physical, I'll stand herethat will manipulate the horse
to do this and that.
It's doing it with an openheart, it's doing it with a
connection.
Mm-hmm.
With the horse.
But the minute you step in frontof a camera, the minute you step
(24:01):
in front of a crowd and starttalking, you're not in your
heart.
You're not in your body.
Suddenly you're performer.
Right?
And so there's a huge, well, Ido think that there's some
people who can maybe, but, and,and I also, I understand like
there is a showmanship side tothe industry.
Like horses have been used forentertainment for so long.
(24:24):
That's a good point.
Like there, there is that, thatis a part of the craft.
It is.
I get that.
But I guess my problem is likeif I'm going to a clinic to
learn Yes, and I'm trying tolearn what these people are
doing and they've stopped doingwhat they normally do because
they're in front of a crowd andsomehow I'm supposed to
(24:46):
understand what they're doingwhen it appears.
That they don't actuallyunderstand what they're doing on
an energetic level, and nobodycan explain that.
That's my problem with clinics,clinicians, and it's kind of the
same problem with this top downbecause you're, it feels cut off
in some ways.
And so the whole mm-hmm.
(25:07):
The whole the whole thing isvery problematic.
So I'm actually glad to hear yousay that somebody could see that
it was shortsighted, because inmy mind, I'd like it to be kind
of.
History.
It doesn't seem effective.
It doesn't seem like, like theright thing to do.
And I think Elsa Sinclair likebrought the whole thing to a
head.
Mm-hmm.
You know, with, with TamingWild.
(25:29):
And she was a, a fourth levelPelli student who made the move.
Right.
The documentary about theMustang asking the question, can
I ride, will they let us ride?
Do they wanna be ridden?
And then in the end, that's abeautiful, beautiful
documentary.
It is a beautiful documentary.
Yeah.
But in the end, she admits, yes,I, I'm not using a halter, I'm
(25:49):
not using a round pen.
I'm not using treats.
I'm not using clickers.
I am doing this withrelationship and with breath.
I.
But I'm also manipulating bywhere I stand, by where I
breathe, by how I breathe,right?
But she's also entering theirworld like, like I feel like the
ideas, a lot of the ideas I haveabout entering the horse world
and them having a separateculture come from some of her
(26:12):
work, which feels more as I'msaying it, I'm thinking as I'm
talking here, feels more like atop, like a bottom up approach.
So, so let's go back and maybewe need to unpack the like top
down, bottom up terminology.
'cause it gets used in differentways.
Okay.
So if again, like, think aboutlike, I.
(26:35):
There's top down learning andbottom up learning.
Bottom, top down learning is, isa more cognitive approach to
learning.
A bottom up approach is moreimplicit.
And when we say implicit, whatit means is that we're tapping
into areas of the consciousnessthat maybe don't have words, and
(27:00):
so it requires us to.
Be aware of the more subtleenergies in our body and our
emotional process, differentstates of being and things like
that.
A basic way of breaking it downbody, heart, brain, or we can go
brain, heart, body.
(27:22):
So it's like action, feeling,thinking or thinking, feeling.
Action.
And we need both.
We need both.
Yeah.
And.
When I have, the reason why Ihave a bias towards a more
bottom up approach is that itgets forgotten and neglected,
(27:44):
and it needs, it needs somecultural nurturing in my world.
And so that's why I have a biastowards that practice.
And, and this is a challenging,challenging thought for some
people.
Like there are hierarchies inthe world.
A parent is above a child.
(28:06):
Mm-hmm.
And right now we're goingthrough some pretty big cultural
shifts where we're exploringgender hierarchies.
But I was born into a world in areligious system where a man was
above women.
And.
That's a challenge for me to sitwith.
I haven't completely abandonedthat thinking, but I don't like
(28:30):
it'cause I'm a woman.
Like that's not the only reason.
Come on.
Well, I mean, okay.
I, I have some more work I needto do around that personally.
I have some integration to do,like but, but you're not pushing
back and you're not challengingme when I say it.
A parent is above a child.
I like that idea, but you know,it's not the reality in the
(28:51):
world anymore.
In fact, that's a really bigproblem that I'm sure people
come to see you for.
A lot of people are asking thatquestion.
Yes.
And actually that is at the sametime though there are some ways
when like if I'm in a therapysession with a child and it's
just me and the child in theroom, I am in charge of that
space and I have a bigger bodyand I have more experience, and
(29:14):
I have more wisdom and I havemore knowledge.
Yeah.
Except for Carissa, in any spaceyou're in that I've ever
witnessed, whether there's bighorses or men or just me, you
are in charge.
Like that's, that's who you are.
Well, it's also how I've beentrained to operate, of course.
From a young age.
From a very young age.
(29:35):
Right, right.
So I get going back to thisvideo though.
Mm-hmm.
Like one of the comments that Ihad in the video is like, this
is kind of like parenting, likeroping that horse and getting it
(29:56):
out of the housing development Isaid was like, it's like
grabbing the arm of a child andpulling it out of traffic.
Mm-hmm.
Because there are children whodon't know not to run into the
road.
Mm-hmm.
And, and so I do need to be ableto have my faculties, but the
(30:18):
action of grabbing that childand pulling it out of traffic.
Is not coming from a cognitivespace.
It's coming from a space ofinstinct with the child.
Yes.
With that horse, like I'm still,like you're saying housing
(30:39):
development.
I saw one house and, and so likewe're seeing things that's true
differently.
That's true.
And, and I'm trying to imagine asituation, and maybe this is
like off topic, but maybe it'snot, I'm trying to imagine a
situation where, you know, thehorse has a lead rope and a
halter on, and suddenly there'sa cowboy with a rope.
(31:01):
Like, what was that?
Mm-hmm.
Were they riding?
Did somebody fall off?
Did the horse just get loose?
Did somebody leave the gateopen?
And we don't know.
Yeah, right.
We dunno.
Any of that.
And so, but when you, whenyou're making the analogy with
the, the parent and grabbing achild and it being like a, a
knee jerk reaction to save achild or to save the horse, I'm
(31:26):
not convinced that that's thesame situation, is what I'm
saying.
I guess like the moment the, theenergy of the video clip that we
saw mm-hmm.
Where this man is on a horsethrowing the rope to catch
another horse mm-hmm.
I think is the same kind ofenergy as like grabbing the arm
of a child and throwing the backoff the road.
(31:47):
Okay.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll with that.
But, but, and also like I'vedecided ahead of time, if I'm
gonna pull a child out oftraffic, I've already decided
ahead of time, based on my yearsof conditioning and experience,
that this is the thing to do.
Mm-hmm.
And so I've been trained by myculture that this is the right
(32:10):
way.
The right thing and the heroicthing.
The protective thing.
Mm-hmm.
Why do you think so many peoplesaw and commented on that being
abuse?
What?
What do you think that's about?
(32:30):
The horse reared up and the ropedid get tight.
And his neck got pulled over.
Yeah.
So, so there was a use of forcein manipulation.
We're not used to seeing thatscenario either.
Like we see horses roped in acorral or large round pen.
(32:53):
Right?
Right.
We see horses herded up withhelicopters driven, you know,
with multiple horsemen.
Right.
We see cattle roped and tied inthe, in the rodeo.
Oh.
But we don't see horses roped ina, in a large area, running at
(33:15):
full speed.
We don't see that a lot.
We used to see it more though.
And, and that's again, back tothe shadow and the history of
the industry.
Right.
Like.
People used to, it used to belegal, and this is why we have
the legislation that was passedin the 1970s to protect the
(33:36):
Mustangs because it used to belegal before that legislation
was passed to hunt them assport.
What?
You don't know about that?
No, they were, yeah.
No horses.
Yes.
Well, there is an overpopulationproblem.
And it used to be legal to huntthem a sport.
(33:56):
And this is where you hear aboutthe practices like tripping.
And, and so people would go anddo the things that we saw in the
video that you commented ondecades ago before we were born.
What kind of people as hunthorses.
I, I'm, I'm sorry.
I'm.
(34:17):
A reaction.
It's difficult for me to answerthat because I wasn't alive
then.
I, but I do think that a part ofthe outrage that still is coming
up is like a ripple or an echoof the outrage from previous
generations, even if we don'tconsciously know.
(34:40):
Right.
That's a lot.
Right.
I'm getting goosebumps.
That is a lot.
Right?
And and this is, so it's like aparallel to the echoes that
happen, like when we engage withinternational politics and
what's happening in Palestineand Israel or when we Right.
(35:04):
And we are having these echoesof protests from the civil
rights movement and we're havingthese echoes of rebellion and
are facing the shadow and theechoes of fascism in America.
Like it feels kind of similar tothat to me.
(35:25):
That's a, that's a really goodpoint.
This like microcosm of course isreflected in, the energetic
patterns, even collectiveconsciousness or DNA or
generational, whatever exactly.
I think we're on the same page.
Yeah, we're definitely on thesame page.
(35:46):
Okay.
So I'm getting the chills nowtoo, like, yeah, it's, I mean,
it's really good to unpack allof that.
How do you see the horsesleading in, in work that.
Feels therapeutic with them.
Yeah.
Like, well, maybe this kind ofgoes back to some of the
(36:08):
questions that we've askedtogether before about like, what
is it that the horses areteaching us right now?
What do they have to say forthis time in human history?
And I am a believer based on myown experiences that horses
(36:28):
function like a psychopomp and apsychopomp is like a mediator
between worlds.
And, and maybe it's theunconscious and conscious world.
Maybe it's the inner world andthe outer world.
(36:49):
Maybe we could go into differentcultural practices and think
about the tree of life in theunderworld and the upper world
of the heavens.
They're a mediator and they helpus travel.
And whether it's travelingphysically in the material
(37:10):
world, like with a cart or acarriage or on their back or
whether they're traveling withus psychically and spiritually,
when we go and sit and meditateand just be with them, and then
we have these amazingexperiences.
I, I do think they offerthemselves in relationship with
(37:38):
us to help facilitate that kindof movement.
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
That's a great answer.
That I like on so many levels.
I hadn't thought about it.
Like that.
I have, I have one anotherquestion for you.
What five almost universalmistakes would you address to
(38:04):
horse trainers and ask them tostop?
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Well, I don't know if I havefive answers, but let me, let me
sit with that a little bit.
I don't know.
Let me see if I can anchor ontosomething.
We could also have theconversation that we started
(38:24):
earlier today about the bumpsand the Spurs and the Grand Prix
and these different, you know,different levels of riding and
what we see.
I think I like we could and, andI think that, well, and I think
maybe my answer to that isconnected to the answer to the
first thing you asked, which iscircling back to the idea that
(38:48):
we are all just where we are.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I guess maybe mychallenge and the question I'm
asking myself right now there isa natural order and harmony to
everything that we see withhorses and people.
And sometimes it's really bigand sometimes it's really quiet
(39:09):
and invisible.
All of it is what it is and allof it is what it needs to be.
Well, the edges of learning andthe edges of good horse ship I.
And the, the edges anintersection of tolerance for
(39:29):
other people of where we are.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And wanting to learn the rightthings.
Like I find myself wantingregulation or wanting, you know,
a 5 0 1 with people that can becalled to educate people that
are doing things that are unsafeto the horse.
And at the same time, I alsorealized that even when these
(39:51):
terrible things happen tohorses.
That there are lessons for thepeople like it, it doesn't feel
like it's ever on accident.
Yes, and like all accidents withhorses, I will say like all
accidents with horses are causedand, and that is where we can
(40:14):
step in with our human brain andlearn how to be more
preventative.
And and you know, we've got thework of Temple Grand and has
been brilliant in order toimprove the life of all animals
and all livestock.
(40:35):
Mm-hmm.
Like people have completelyredesigned what.
Healthy living looks like forhorses.
You know, I, again, I grew upwhen it, what was normal was for
a horse to live in a box stalland maybe get a couple hours of
turnout a day.
And the only movement that theygot, or the only movement that
(40:59):
they got was if they were takenout to be ridden that day.
And.
That is what was necessary whenhorses lived a more urban life,
and now horses don't live asmuch of an urban life as they
used to.
And so now what's normal is tohave paddock, paradises and big
(41:23):
turnouts and things like that,and we've changed our feeding
practices and it is for thebetter of the horse.
The horses are living longer.
There's less colic than thereused to be.
But there's also new challengesbecause there's more laminitis
in founder than there's everbeen.
And now there's like dentalproblems showing up that have
(41:45):
never, that were never a problemin the past.
So I mean, the environment haschanged and now there's a new
set of imbalances that are beingexposed.
This new environment.
Does that make sense?
It does..
There's a new cycle.
(42:06):
Yeah, the balance is, issomething that's always there
fighting to come back tohomeostasis.
Like, and it changes and I mean,yes, it's like us nothing,
nothing really gets accomplishedwhen you're in balance.
Balance is something to returnto after you've dipped or went
for a high or accomplishedsomething or whatever, you know,
(42:27):
whatever it is, it's the resttime.
So yeah, why would we be there?
But I love the part about what'sgoing on in the world.
You know, showing up in smallways in people's psyches as we
comment on Facebook that'spretty profound.
I mean, and it's very real.
It's probably more real than allthe stuff going out going on in
(42:47):
the world and, and somehow, likesocial media has now been a
place for us to like work out alot of that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And that's something too iscameras and the eye of a camera
means that we can't hideanymore.
there's, being someone who wantsto be in the horse industry
(43:10):
means that you're gonna getwatched, you're gonna be seen.
Yeah.
And, and sometimes it's hard tocontrol how we're seen or how
it's interpreted.
Mm-hmm.
Or, or all of that.
Wow.
Yeah.
What, so we're, we're at aboutan hour again, and Oh my gosh.
I know it happens so quick.
(43:31):
Is there anything else that youwanna cover?
I feel like, man, we talkedabout a lot of things that were
important.
I think let's, I, I imaginethere's gonna be more questions
and we could do this again andtalk more, but this feels like
we've come up.
Out of the depth of thatheaviness that we ended on last
(43:53):
time.
Yes.
And And are maybe more thatfeels complete.
Yeah, I like that too.
I guess that's a good place tosay goodnight.
Sounds good.
Hi, this is Ishiba with theHorse Human Connection Matrix,
and I have Carissa with me againfor our Part two, and we're
gonna pick up some of theconversation that we were having
about.
Let's start with the bullyingand the shadow side, kind of
where we left off.
(00:21):
And yeah, we, we really did kindof end on a, kind of a deep note
and talking about the shadowside of the horse industry and
so.
I think for the sake of thisrecorded conversation, it might
be helpful to set up some of thecontext around this bullying and
(00:42):
the horse industry like thing.
I'm gonna recap some things, solike, oh.
If I take us back down to whereI felt like we were, and I'm,
I'm searching my own psyche forsome archetypes to kind of like
hold on to'cause we really arethat deep.
(01:02):
I think we were havingconversations about the.
Difference between like atheory-based clinical approach
and an evidence-based clinicalapproach.
And, and maybe it's more of likethe theory versus the method
conversation, and that openedthe door to my critique of the
(01:29):
very behavioral.
Approach to psychology in thehorse industry.
There's more to psychology thanjust the behavioral science part
of it.
And so what a lot of people areexposed to right now in the
(01:50):
animal science, behavioralscience world is the influence
of the behavioral school.
Which has a dark history and ithas a political history, and
it's not something that I amcomfortable with practicing
(02:11):
because of that history.
And so my psychological andfield radical orientation is
more in the humanistic schoolsand the depth psychology
schools.
So more of like the, the personcentered, humanistic school of
psychology, which is kinda likea cousin or a sister to yian
(02:33):
depth psychology.
And it also has its own shadow.
It has its limits.
It's also like we could unpackthat in a different
conversation, but I feel morecomfortable personally in that
world than I do in thebehavioral science world.
(02:54):
So.
We were talking about how, liketheory is important because it,
it informs how you answer thequestions in front of you and it
informs how you're gonnainterpret the behavior in front
of you.
So okay.
Is that, is attachment, isattachment theory part of
(03:15):
theory.
Yes.
I mean there's lots of theories,right?
Definitely.
Yes.
So that's one of the theoriesand attachment theory kind of
gets adopted into multipleschools of psychology.
It's, and I know about itbecause of my training in family
systems theory in emotionfocused therapy, and it's also
(03:37):
very big in the early childhooddevelopment world.
And so like attachment theory,this is, this is where you hear
like the basics of attachmenttheory.
Is that what happens in thefirst early relationships that
you have in life?
Mm-hmm.
Kind of create a blueprint forhow you engage in relationships
(03:59):
later in life.
So if you have a secure base,and we talk about this a lot, so
if you have a secure baseattachment relationship with
your caregivers as a baby, as aninfant, as a child, it's really
like the first five to sevenyears of life that are pretty
formative there.
(04:22):
You are more likely to have.
Harmonious relationship and beable to regulate yourself in
relationship later in life.
Okay, so we were talking aboutattachment theory and, and like
the basics of it.
And so like there's this ideasof different attachment styles
(04:42):
and you can learn about that anduse that to explore intimate
relationship and, and like.
Because of the implications ofthe neuroscience of human animal
bond theory and interpersonalneurobiology, we can say that we
have attachment relationshipswith our horses too.
Mm-hmm.
And that we are gonna play outthose implicit, unconscious
(05:07):
relationship patterns with ouranimals too.
We're not on the topic of thebullying yet.
That's, I think that that'simportant because Yeah, the
thing that came up, I shared, Istarted interacting and
commenting on a Facebook video,and then I asked you to look at
it and look at the comments andyou had.
(05:29):
You had some good perspective onit because your eye is so much
more trained.
You've been trained in so manymore disciplines and it was,
there was some bullying that washappening.
People were calling these peopleabusive and lots of them were
doing it, and some of them weredoing it really aggressively.
In fact, one of them had apicture of a gun point I'm gonna
(05:52):
do to you what you do to animalswith this like barrel of a gun
picture in the comments.
And I was just like, take thatgun off me.
What you're just as bad as theyare.
And I know that I've gottenangry about stuff before too,
and you're always so good tolike say, well hold on.
You know, there's the right wayto do this and you're so patient
(06:12):
and tolerant with people atdifferent levels of learning and
I just appreciate that.
Yeah.
So we had this conversation,this was earlier today, and we
were, there was also peoplejumping on and saying, oh, this
poster is so egotistical thatrider is so egotistical and, and
(06:33):
there's something about beingegotistical that's now been
demonized in the horse world.
And rightly so, because again,if we think about the history of
the development.
Of the horse industry, and Ithink back a few decades, there
was very much a need to callpeople out for being egotistical
(06:56):
and abusive.
Like there was very much a needto have that conversation and to
have definitions of whatconstitutes abuse.
And there was very much a needto challenge the egos of pretty
successful trainers.
Who would get in there and justand force a horse into a, a
(07:21):
frame and force it to go around.
And you could tell these horseswere just tight and tense and
angry and resentful.
So I mean, there was a need forthat in the past.
And there's, I think.
Because new people continue tocome to horses, there will
always continue to be a need tohave that conversation.
(07:43):
And to have a conversation abouthow deeply horses reveal
ourselves and how deeply theyare capable of mirroring us.
And, and they will expose.
The all sorts of things,including the things that maybe
(08:09):
we deny or hide about ourself,including being manipulative and
being egotistical and being,like being forceful and things
like that.
So.
If I touch back down to.
(08:29):
Why it's so important for me tonot engage the behavioral school
of psychology when I step intospaces with horses.
And I got to the point where inthis first conversation that we
had, I found myself kind ofsurprised of how strongly I was
protecting the space againstthat influence and, and.
(08:54):
Stepped away from my previousconversation feeling pretty
justified in how protective Iwas being by saying, no, I can't
let this into the circle.
I cannot let this into thespace.
I must protect the integrity ofthe space that I have with the
horse.
(09:15):
Protect it, protect it from.
Behavioral psychology, like wejust wanna be really clear.
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
And, and the reason why isbecause, and I said this and I,
and let's unpack this, like thatis the school of psychology that
has been used by governments tooppress people.
(09:38):
And it, in horse training, it'sused.
A, a parallel is used to oppresshorses, but that's not what
you're saying.
You're saying that you wannakeep that away from horse
therapy or away from your mindwhen you're interacting with the
horse?
I think definitely from my mindwhen I'm act interacting with
(09:58):
the horse, and I think this islike probably a really personal
conversation because.
A lot of the work that I doprofessionally is around works
of decolonization and aroundworks of like engaging
(10:21):
liberation psychology andliberation theology and things
like that.
The path that I am onpersonally.
Is one of questioning andchallenging patriarchy.
Mm-hmm.
Which is a very, very normalstage of feminine development.
(10:47):
We are born into a world, we'reconditioned by that world.
And then we rise up and areconscious enough to realize how
deeply we've been manipulated ashumans and as women.
Yeah.
And, and the horses have beentoo.
(11:08):
And so that is a meeting place,and I would prefer to meet the
horses in that space and havethem be my teachers in that
space than I would in insteadof.
Studying the systems of positivereinforcement and targeting and
shaping and all those things.
Is it okay?
There's a lot there, Carissa.
(11:29):
Hold on.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Because I opened a really bigdoor.
Is is it?
Is it fair?
Is it is?
We're talking about patriarchy.
Is it fair to put a lot of horsetraining methods and liken them
to patriarchy?
Is that fair?
Yes.
(11:50):
And, and I'm saying, what I'msaying is that I think one of
the re Well, yes, I mean, and ifwe think about the history of
horsemanship, like women werenot allowed to ride a stride
until the late 18 hundreds.
We were not even allowed to bein some cultures on the back of
a horse in some cultures, right.
(12:12):
Well, and I'm, I'm speaking towest dominant Western culture.
Okay.
Which most of us listening, mostof the people listening to this
podcast mm-hmm.
Are coming from that culture.
You and I come from thatculture.
Right.
And that, so that's fair.
So the other, the other thingthat you were saying there, that
you want to keep.
Out of your mind when you'rewith the horses, the things the
(12:34):
train, like click clickertraining, and only positive
reinforcement.
Because as you were teaching mewhen you used to come out and
give me mm-hmm.
Lessons and we would meet, wehad some conversations about
clicker training and it, andbeing able to use it as a tool
if you have a relationship basedtraining in place, but by
(12:54):
itself, it.
It would run into some problems.
And so you're also like mm-hmm.
The clicker training and onlypositive reinforcement because
now we know because horse,brain, human brain, that horses
actually have six differentmodes of learning.
You're saying that those arepart of the behavioral
psychology also, that you wantto stay away from, keep out of
(13:15):
your brain while you're withhorses and in that space.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Yes, and, and partly becausebehavioral psychology is a
patriarchal dominated field.
It is, it is a very masculinemethod, and I'm saying masculine
and kind of the more classicallike ying yang sense of the word
(13:37):
masculine.
It's, it's a top down approachwhere there is a hierarchy.
There is dominance in influenceand I'm more interested in
relating to nature and relatingto the world, and engaging with
the world from a more likeegalitarian circle, feminine
(14:00):
space bottom up.
Yeah.
Starting organic and thenmanifesting to the mind as the
last, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I will say like, that'sjust my bias.
And, and I'm saying like, I knowthat I have my personal
experiences that influence thatbias.
Right?
Owning that and knowing thatyou're looking at it through a
(14:22):
lens, but it's the right lensfor you to have on.
And it might be the, it mightnot be the right lens for
someone else.
And I understand, like I dowanna say that I.
Believe that the behavioralsciences have progressed the
(14:42):
conversation in horsemanship inmy lifetime, in a positive
direction.
Mm-hmm.
And it's limited in what it canaccomplish.
It's limited in its scope.
And, and yet, like earlier todaywhen we were looking at that
video, you were really defendingsome of those methods that from
(15:03):
my lens, which is not nearly aseducated as yours is from my
lens, were looking questionablewhen you're yanking a horse's
neck and it looks like it couldbreak its neck and the horse is
flipping over backwards and it'sall, but it didn't, so it, it
did not flip over backwards.
(15:24):
The horse did not flip over.
Okay.
So in the video, what I rememberseeing in the video was there
was the comment in the subtextof the, the video was that there
was a loose horse that was nothalter broke, but it had a
halter and leader up on it,right?
And it was loose and a big openfield kind of on the boundary
(15:45):
line of like undeveloped openland in a suburb.
Well, I saw three.
I saw three different clips.
Right.
So I think, yeah, like this isworth talking about too.
I mean, we're talking aboutperceptions, we're talking about
lenses that we look through.
We're talking about Yes, biases.
Yes.
All of these, like this is anexample of all of those things.
(16:07):
It's also an example of topdown, bottom up.
It's an example of feminine.
It's an example of patriarchy.
It's all of these things.
In this example, right?
It's gonna get complicatedbecause I'm also stepping in and
saying like, I think what we sawin that video was a healthy, top
(16:27):
down, patriarchal, masculineaction, intervening to prevent
chaos.
Okay.
And I'm gonna say I'm not surewe're seeing the same thing
because Yeah, there was thefirst scene, there is a horse
being lassoed.
Yes.
That has something on its face.
Yes.
It's blurry.
And there's a house, like thehorse is right next to a house.
(16:49):
You can see Right.
The house in the background.
And what I saw was the horse'sneck move and then the horse, I
didn't see it hit the ground,but I saw it come up off the
ground in a very contorted.
Like airborne thing and then itcuts to a different Yes.
Then it cuts to a differentscene, which is the middle scene
and it's a different horse and adifferent rider.
(17:10):
I.
That are lassoing.
I don't know if it is.
I it may have been.
It is because the man has a redshirt, a different camera.
Well maybe it's the same Oh.
But a different day.
'cause he's wearing a red shirtand one and a and a in a and a
blue shirt in the, in the otherone.
And Oh, interesting.
Okay.
Scene that you see.
Is it there?
It's again, kind of blurry.
(17:31):
There's a pasture and thenthere's a road and you can't
tell because it's blurry.
If there's a fence between thepasture and the road got and the
horse is again, beating last,and your attention is on the
action, but you are aware of thebackground.
And then the final scene is likefrom a GoPro where you're seeing
the ears of a horse.
(17:51):
You know, from the writer'sperspective, and he is not suing
another horse with a halter anda lead rope flying, right?
It's open desert.
There's no house.
There's no road.
It is just a desert scene.
Which could have, right.
Okay.
So there's three clips back toback to back and it's exit
sequence.
I think the clip that is gettingthe most attention in the
(18:14):
comments and that maybe elicitsthe most energy, is that first
one.
Mm-hmm.
And, and what I saw was someone,like someone, there was a person
roping a horse.
What I saw is that they threw anoverhand loop, and I, I think,
(18:39):
like I, I'm not as much of anexpert in roping to know the
name of the type of the loop hethrew, but he, he threw an
overhand loop.
And when you catch a horse andrope a horse, you have to throw
the root, the loop over thehorse, the top of the horse's
head, and then you want it tofall down.
Over their face and onto theirchest, which is what happened.
(19:00):
And what I saw happen is whenthe top of the rope made contact
with the top of that horse'sneck, it fought it and reared up
into it.
At the same time, the loop isclosing and tightening and the
guy dials off because he needsthe leverage of another horse.
(19:24):
To stop this animal and it stopsbefore we know what happens
next.
So we don't know where therelease of pressure is coming
from for this horse or if itcomes at all, right?
But what we do know is what Isee is.
(19:49):
A horse moving and a horse andrider moving in parallel with
it.
So they're moving together, therope lands on the horse, reacts
to the rope, and then is, andthen, and then it's tethered to
another horse.
That's all I know.
(20:12):
But because, and, and this is,this is something too, so like.
Nature is violent.
Mm-hmm.
The horse fought.
Right.
And we don't know the beforestory or the after story.
Right.
All we're doing is these threeshort things, which is really
interesting.
Right, right, right.
The conversations that come into me, it's like I'm not.
(20:36):
I mean, I was judging it alittle bit when I first saw, but
as I started to interact withthe, the postings, I found
myself asking questions, youknow, being curious, calling
other people out and offering,like somebody said something,
well, there's no other way tocatch a wild horse in a pasture.
Which of course was thisopportunity for me to, you know,
describe a way to do that, whichthen got a whole lot of
(20:58):
attention.
You know, and it may have been alittle bit off subject, but what
I loved about the whole thing isthat it was.
The video caused theconversations that I wanna see
happen.
Yes, yes.
And I watch, it was reallylovely to watch you step up and
engage that conversation.
There has been kind of acollective evolution.
(21:22):
Especially since TikTok andCovid and everyone has been on
social media, I'm gonna go backa few decades again.
Early two thousands, that's whenI first got introduced to the
pellis and natural horsemanshipas a concept.
I had already learned quite afew other things from other
(21:45):
people and, I.
Remember the conversation backthen was a respect for what the
Perellis were doing becauseagain, they were creating a
pathway of invitation andlearning to help new people
(22:07):
enter the horse world.
But those of us who were alreadythere.
Saw how shortsighted theirteachings were.
And even back then, people werepredicting that natural
horsemanship as a movement had ashort, it was gonna have a short
lifespan because it, again, was,was a strict application of a
(22:33):
method.
And there's interviews out therewith the pearls where they say,
yeah, we're behaviorals.
And they, they cite and studylike BF Skinner and things like
that.
And they're doing what they canto change people's behavior in
relationship to horses, which Ithink was, has a limited effect
(22:57):
to it.
But at the same time, theyforgot.
A lot of the things that thoseof us who are generational horse
families have learned.
Mm-hmm.
It is, you're right.
(23:17):
It is the same conversation withsome different nuances.
And you and I have talked aboutthese training methods and about
clinicians and you know what myproblem is with all of it too,
but I mean, I just think, andmaybe this is part of my
autistic lens, but I think a lotof people that are doing.
Like the YouTube videos andteaching the clinics, I the
(23:40):
whole setup seems wrong becauseyou're in front of people.
In order to do these things withthe horse, you, you need to have
an open heart.
Like that's a big part of what Isee going on is not just like
the physical, I'll stand herethat will manipulate the horse
to do this and that.
It's doing it with an openheart, it's doing it with a
connection.
Mm-hmm.
With the horse.
But the minute you step in frontof a camera, the minute you step
(24:01):
in front of a crowd and starttalking, you're not in your
heart.
You're not in your body.
Suddenly you're performer.
Right?
And so there's a huge, well, Ido think that there's some
people who can maybe, but, and,and I also, I understand like
there is a showmanship side tothe industry.
Like horses have been used forentertainment for so long.
(24:24):
That's a good point.
Like there, there is that, thatis a part of the craft.
It is.
I get that.
But I guess my problem is likeif I'm going to a clinic to
learn Yes, and I'm trying tolearn what these people are
doing and they've stopped doingwhat they normally do because
they're in front of a crowd andsomehow I'm supposed to
(24:46):
understand what they're doingwhen it appears.
That they don't actuallyunderstand what they're doing on
an energetic level, and nobodycan explain that.
That's my problem with clinics,clinicians, and it's kind of the
same problem with this top downbecause you're, it feels cut off
in some ways.
And so the whole mm-hmm.
(25:07):
The whole the whole thing isvery problematic.
So I'm actually glad to hear yousay that somebody could see that
it was shortsighted, because inmy mind, I'd like it to be kind
of.
History.
It doesn't seem effective.
It doesn't seem like, like theright thing to do.
And I think Elsa Sinclair likebrought the whole thing to a
head.
Mm-hmm.
You know, with, with TamingWild.
(25:29):
And she was a, a fourth levelPelli student who made the move.
Right.
The documentary about theMustang asking the question, can
I ride, will they let us ride?
Do they wanna be ridden?
And then in the end, that's abeautiful, beautiful
documentary.
It is a beautiful documentary.
Yeah.
But in the end, she admits, yes,I, I'm not using a halter, I'm
(25:49):
not using a round pen.
I'm not using treats.
I'm not using clickers.
I am doing this withrelationship and with breath.
I.
But I'm also manipulating bywhere I stand, by where I
breathe, by how I breathe,right?
But she's also entering theirworld like, like I feel like the
ideas, a lot of the ideas I haveabout entering the horse world
and them having a separateculture come from some of her
(26:12):
work, which feels more as I'msaying it, I'm thinking as I'm
talking here, feels more like atop, like a bottom up approach.
So, so let's go back and maybewe need to unpack the like top
down, bottom up terminology.
'cause it gets used in differentways.
Okay.
So if again, like, think aboutlike, I.
(26:35):
There's top down learning andbottom up learning.
Bottom, top down learning is, isa more cognitive approach to
learning.
A bottom up approach is moreimplicit.
And when we say implicit, whatit means is that we're tapping
into areas of the consciousnessthat maybe don't have words, and
(27:00):
so it requires us to.
Be aware of the more subtleenergies in our body and our
emotional process, differentstates of being and things like
that.
A basic way of breaking it downbody, heart, brain, or we can go
brain, heart, body.
(27:22):
So it's like action, feeling,thinking or thinking, feeling.
Action.
And we need both.
We need both.
Yeah.
And.
When I have, the reason why Ihave a bias towards a more
bottom up approach is that itgets forgotten and neglected,
(27:44):
and it needs, it needs somecultural nurturing in my world.
And so that's why I have a biastowards that practice.
And, and this is a challenging,challenging thought for some
people.
Like there are hierarchies inthe world.
A parent is above a child.
(28:06):
Mm-hmm.
And right now we're goingthrough some pretty big cultural
shifts where we're exploringgender hierarchies.
But I was born into a world in areligious system where a man was
above women.
And.
That's a challenge for me to sitwith.
I haven't completely abandonedthat thinking, but I don't like
(28:30):
it'cause I'm a woman.
Like that's not the only reason.
Come on.
Well, I mean, okay.
I, I have some more work I needto do around that personally.
I have some integration to do,like but, but you're not pushing
back and you're not challengingme when I say it.
A parent is above a child.
I like that idea, but you know,it's not the reality in the
(28:51):
world anymore.
In fact, that's a really bigproblem that I'm sure people
come to see you for.
A lot of people are asking thatquestion.
Yes.
And actually that is at the sametime though there are some ways
when like if I'm in a therapysession with a child and it's
just me and the child in theroom, I am in charge of that
space and I have a bigger bodyand I have more experience, and
(29:14):
I have more wisdom and I havemore knowledge.
Yeah.
Except for Carissa, in any spaceyou're in that I've ever
witnessed, whether there's bighorses or men or just me, you
are in charge.
Like that's, that's who you are.
Well, it's also how I've beentrained to operate, of course.
From a young age.
From a very young age.
(29:35):
Right, right.
So I get going back to thisvideo though.
Mm-hmm.
Like one of the comments that Ihad in the video is like, this
is kind of like parenting, likeroping that horse and getting it
(29:56):
out of the housing development Isaid was like, it's like
grabbing the arm of a child andpulling it out of traffic.
Mm-hmm.
Because there are children whodon't know not to run into the
road.
Mm-hmm.
And, and so I do need to be ableto have my faculties, but the
(30:18):
action of grabbing that childand pulling it out of traffic.
Is not coming from a cognitivespace.
It's coming from a space ofinstinct with the child.
Yes.
With that horse, like I'm still,like you're saying housing
(30:39):
development.
I saw one house and, and so likewe're seeing things that's true
differently.
That's true.
And, and I'm trying to imagine asituation, and maybe this is
like off topic, but maybe it'snot, I'm trying to imagine a
situation where, you know, thehorse has a lead rope and a
halter on, and suddenly there'sa cowboy with a rope.
(31:01):
Like, what was that?
Mm-hmm.
Were they riding?
Did somebody fall off?
Did the horse just get loose?
Did somebody leave the gateopen?
And we don't know.
Yeah, right.
We dunno.
Any of that.
And so, but when you, whenyou're making the analogy with
the, the parent and grabbing achild and it being like a, a
knee jerk reaction to save achild or to save the horse, I'm
(31:26):
not convinced that that's thesame situation, is what I'm
saying.
I guess like the moment the, theenergy of the video clip that we
saw mm-hmm.
Where this man is on a horsethrowing the rope to catch
another horse mm-hmm.
I think is the same kind ofenergy as like grabbing the arm
of a child and throwing the backoff the road.
(31:47):
Okay.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll with that.
But, but, and also like I'vedecided ahead of time, if I'm
gonna pull a child out oftraffic, I've already decided
ahead of time, based on my yearsof conditioning and experience,
that this is the thing to do.
Mm-hmm.
And so I've been trained by myculture that this is the right
(32:10):
way.
The right thing and the heroicthing.
The protective thing.
Mm-hmm.
Why do you think so many peoplesaw and commented on that being
abuse?
What?
What do you think that's about?
(32:30):
The horse reared up and the ropedid get tight.
And his neck got pulled over.
Yeah.
So, so there was a use of forcein manipulation.
We're not used to seeing thatscenario either.
Like we see horses roped in acorral or large round pen.
(32:53):
Right?
Right.
We see horses herded up withhelicopters driven, you know,
with multiple horsemen.
Right.
We see cattle roped and tied inthe, in the rodeo.
Oh.
But we don't see horses roped ina, in a large area, running at
(33:15):
full speed.
We don't see that a lot.
We used to see it more though.
And, and that's again, back tothe shadow and the history of
the industry.
Right.
Like.
People used to, it used to belegal, and this is why we have
the legislation that was passedin the 1970s to protect the
(33:36):
Mustangs because it used to belegal before that legislation
was passed to hunt them assport.
What?
You don't know about that?
No, they were, yeah.
No horses.
Yes.
Well, there is an overpopulationproblem.
And it used to be legal to huntthem a sport.
(33:56):
And this is where you hear aboutthe practices like tripping.
And, and so people would go anddo the things that we saw in the
video that you commented ondecades ago before we were born.
What kind of people as hunthorses.
I, I'm, I'm sorry.
I'm.
(34:17):
A reaction.
It's difficult for me to answerthat because I wasn't alive
then.
I, but I do think that a part ofthe outrage that still is coming
up is like a ripple or an echoof the outrage from previous
generations, even if we don'tconsciously know.
(34:40):
Right.
That's a lot.
Right.
I'm getting goosebumps.
That is a lot.
Right?
And and this is, so it's like aparallel to the echoes that
happen, like when we engage withinternational politics and
what's happening in Palestineand Israel or when we Right.
(35:04):
And we are having these echoesof protests from the civil
rights movement and we're havingthese echoes of rebellion and
are facing the shadow and theechoes of fascism in America.
Like it feels kind of similar tothat to me.
(35:25):
That's a, that's a really goodpoint.
This like microcosm of course isreflected in, the energetic
patterns, even collectiveconsciousness or DNA or
generational, whatever exactly.
I think we're on the same page.
Yeah, we're definitely on thesame page.
(35:46):
Okay.
So I'm getting the chills nowtoo, like, yeah, it's, I mean,
it's really good to unpack allof that.
How do you see the horsesleading in, in work that.
Feels therapeutic with them.
Yeah.
Like, well, maybe this kind ofgoes back to some of the
(36:08):
questions that we've askedtogether before about like, what
is it that the horses areteaching us right now?
What do they have to say forthis time in human history?
And I am a believer based on myown experiences that horses
(36:28):
function like a psychopomp and apsychopomp is like a mediator
between worlds.
And, and maybe it's theunconscious and conscious world.
Maybe it's the inner world andthe outer world.
(36:49):
Maybe we could go into differentcultural practices and think
about the tree of life in theunderworld and the upper world
of the heavens.
They're a mediator and they helpus travel.
And whether it's travelingphysically in the material
(37:10):
world, like with a cart or acarriage or on their back or
whether they're traveling withus psychically and spiritually,
when we go and sit and meditateand just be with them, and then
we have these amazingexperiences.
I, I do think they offerthemselves in relationship with
(37:38):
us to help facilitate that kindof movement.
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
That's a great answer.
That I like on so many levels.
I hadn't thought about it.
Like that.
I have, I have one anotherquestion for you.
What five almost universalmistakes would you address to
(38:04):
horse trainers and ask them tostop?
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Well, I don't know if I havefive answers, but let me, let me
sit with that a little bit.
I don't know.
Let me see if I can anchor ontosomething.
We could also have theconversation that we started
(38:24):
earlier today about the bumpsand the Spurs and the Grand Prix
and these different, you know,different levels of riding and
what we see.
I think I like we could and, andI think that, well, and I think
maybe my answer to that isconnected to the answer to the
first thing you asked, which iscircling back to the idea that
(38:48):
we are all just where we are.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I guess maybe mychallenge and the question I'm
asking myself right now there isa natural order and harmony to
everything that we see withhorses and people.
And sometimes it's really bigand sometimes it's really quiet
(39:09):
and invisible.
All of it is what it is and allof it is what it needs to be.
Well, the edges of learning andthe edges of good horse ship I.
And the, the edges anintersection of tolerance for
(39:29):
other people of where we are.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And wanting to learn the rightthings.
Like I find myself wantingregulation or wanting, you know,
a 5 0 1 with people that can becalled to educate people that
are doing things that are unsafeto the horse.
And at the same time, I alsorealized that even when these
(39:51):
terrible things happen tohorses.
That there are lessons for thepeople like it, it doesn't feel
like it's ever on accident.
Yes, and like all accidents withhorses, I will say like all
accidents with horses are causedand, and that is where we can
(40:14):
step in with our human brain andlearn how to be more
preventative.
And and you know, we've got thework of Temple Grand and has
been brilliant in order toimprove the life of all animals
and all livestock.
(40:35):
Mm-hmm.
Like people have completelyredesigned what.
Healthy living looks like forhorses.
You know, I, again, I grew upwhen it, what was normal was for
a horse to live in a box stalland maybe get a couple hours of
turnout a day.
And the only movement that theygot, or the only movement that
(40:59):
they got was if they were takenout to be ridden that day.
And.
That is what was necessary whenhorses lived a more urban life,
and now horses don't live asmuch of an urban life as they
used to.
And so now what's normal is tohave paddock, paradises and big
(41:23):
turnouts and things like that,and we've changed our feeding
practices and it is for thebetter of the horse.
The horses are living longer.
There's less colic than thereused to be.
But there's also new challengesbecause there's more laminitis
in founder than there's everbeen.
And now there's like dentalproblems showing up that have
(41:45):
never, that were never a problemin the past.
So I mean, the environment haschanged and now there's a new
set of imbalances that are beingexposed.
This new environment.
Does that make sense?
It does..
There's a new cycle.
(42:06):
Yeah, the balance is, issomething that's always there
fighting to come back tohomeostasis.
Like, and it changes and I mean,yes, it's like us nothing,
nothing really gets accomplishedwhen you're in balance.
Balance is something to returnto after you've dipped or went
for a high or accomplishedsomething or whatever, you know,
(42:27):
whatever it is, it's the resttime.
So yeah, why would we be there?
But I love the part about what'sgoing on in the world.
You know, showing up in smallways in people's psyches as we
comment on Facebook that'spretty profound.
I mean, and it's very real.
It's probably more real than allthe stuff going out going on in
(42:47):
the world and, and somehow, likesocial media has now been a
place for us to like work out alot of that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And that's something too iscameras and the eye of a camera
means that we can't hideanymore.
there's, being someone who wantsto be in the horse industry
(43:10):
means that you're gonna getwatched, you're gonna be seen.
Yeah.
And, and sometimes it's hard tocontrol how we're seen or how
it's interpreted.
Mm-hmm.
Or, or all of that.
Wow.
Yeah.
What, so we're, we're at aboutan hour again, and Oh my gosh.
I know it happens so quick.
(43:31):
Is there anything else that youwanna cover?
I feel like, man, we talkedabout a lot of things that were
important.
I think let's, I, I imaginethere's gonna be more questions
and we could do this again andtalk more, but this feels like
we've come up.
Out of the depth of thatheaviness that we ended on last
(43:53):
time.
Yes.
And And are maybe more thatfeels complete.
Yeah, I like that too.
I guess that's a good place tosay goodnight.
Sounds good.
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