May 14, 2025 • 31 mins
The main question is- How do implement giving horses choices, when we dont always understand, their answers & When sometimes we dont like the answers?
A very intense full week, has a terrible ending. In this episode, Ishe is very vulnerable admitting what she doesnt know. This is a multi part serries of episodes. The stage is set here, for the story of what happened and the contributing factors.
In the next few episodes, Ishe plans to get expert help on the issues. So keep listening...
CPDST< EMDR< ASD<Natural horsemanship,intution, EFT & EAP collide with the ER.
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi, I am Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I'm gonna tell you a storyand I give you some background
talk about several differentthings, including what it's like
to have an autistic brain.
The line that I've been walkingfor nearly 10 years about riding
horses and how I interact withthem and what I call horse ship.
(00:23):
After telling you the story ofwhat happened last week, I am
going to ask a couple of waymore experienced horse people.
What their take on it is, whatthey would do to proceed and for
them to just comment on theirperspective of what happens.
Because when we walk two worlds,when we connect with horses and
(00:49):
want horse ship.
We have to leave a lot of thingsbehind and just like we wanna
create a habitual ness intraining horses, we have been
habit habituated in how otherhorse people trained us and
whatever tradition that was, andit's hard to shake some of that
(01:11):
loose.
And our emotional state isconstantly reflected.
And I believe that whateverwe're processing unconsciously
and constantly, our brains arecomputers.
We are constantly processingwhatever it is that we're
processing is creating ourworld.
(01:34):
Because I truly believe that ourthoughts are words, our deeds
and our actions create thereality that we live in.
So you may have heard me talkabout my horse Charlie before.
Charlie is a 9-year-old Mustangthat I bought from a young girl.
She was 18 and she had gottenthe horse from the person who,
(01:56):
the trainer that took it fromthe, I'm wanna call it the
reservation, who took the horsefrom the Mustang pens.
And Halter trained it.
And this girl, it was this younggirl's first project on her own
to train this horse, and she hadsome mentoring.
When I first put the horse inthe round pen, it was frantic,
(02:18):
it was anxious.
It kept doing quick turns aboutthe size of the pen.
It had been kept in.
It did not demonstrate balance,it did not demonstrate any kind
of calmness or regulation.
And I took with me a woman Iused to respect quite a bit,
who'd been a horse woman herwhole life and had successfully
(02:41):
trained many, many horses in oldschool methods with a big heart
and wanted her opinion on it.
We brought this horse home andthe story that the young girl
had told me is that she'd done alot of groundwork.
She'd gotten on the horse onceand it had bolted, not bucked,
but bolted.
(03:02):
And I thought, you know,consulting with this experienced
horse, woman that, you know, Ithink we can start at the
beginning, retrain the horse andit shouldn't be a problem.
So I wanna back up a little bitand tell you what my my
experience has been at thatpoint.
Training horses.
So I have another horse namedCsy, who you've heard me talk
(03:23):
about and I had a mentor help metrain Csy.
That's Issa.
You've probably heard her speak.
If you've listened to all of mypodcasts iE was a checked out
horse, so there was never a fearof her taking off or running.
She was really checked out, sowe had to really coax her.
In fact, it was three monthsgetting on her back frequently
(03:47):
before I could actually get herto take steps because she was so
afraid of ropes, and she'd beenso mistreated that like kicking
her or waving a rope behind herwas just not an option.
It wasn't an option.
I remember one lesson Carissagave me on her old mare, where
for an hour she had me sit onthis horse in the pasture and
(04:09):
predict which leg would movenext to bring my awareness to
how the horse moved, becausethat would translate into how I
would communicate with Sipsy toget her feet moving.
Oh, Chris has a lot of.
A lot of methods, a lot ofthings that really work that I
(04:31):
think other people don't knowabout.
So my experience was that I hadhelped train Sipsy by being
given homework to do, and thatCarissa actually trained her and
worked her when she came once amonth.
And then I would do the homeworkand learn what to do and create.
(04:54):
The relationship with thishorse.
So I'm planning to do somethingsimilar with this horse,
Charlie, as I bring him home.
That's the plan.
I also wanna include in myhistory in, in my conscious
mind, what happened when I endedup sending Csy to another
trainer to put some finish workon her.
I wanted her to understand herleads better.
(05:15):
I wanted her to be able to dropinto elope, which she'd been
resistant to do.
This was after she'd had yearsof training.
That was very slow.
So I've gone really, really slowin whatever I do with untrained
horses because I don't wannamake a mistake.
I don't wanna create a trauma inthem that then I have to
backtrack to try to figure out,because I'm not sure what I'm
(05:38):
doing to begin with.
I have to have help.
And you know, we all know whatwe know.
We all start where we start.
So that's my history with, withbringing Charlie home.
That's my history with sendingCsy.
Oh, I sent her to this othertrainer and I believed that this
woman would be okay.
I sent Chris a video of thewoman riding.
(05:59):
She seemed like she could ride.
Okay.
She got CSI's attention rightaway.
She was very very big anddefinitely in charge, and the
woman said I could come visitonce a week.
We would check in and she didn'tcheck in with me.
I tried to visit.
She told me it wasn't a goodtime, three different times.
And finally I got in the trailerand went down there before she
(06:21):
was done to find my horse haddropped like 50 pounds, which
wasn't a bad thing'cause she wasoverweight.
But in that amount of time itseemed a bit severe.
And when I came and found CypsE, she was in a paddock with
another horse.
I.
(06:42):
Who wasn't letting her eat andshe was just standing there
completely checked out.
She didn't acknowledge me, shedidn't look at me.
She was just inward, like when Ihad got like worse than when I
had got her.
So when I brought her home, itwas another year on the ground
to reestablish trust andrelationship before we could
pick up our training again.
(07:02):
And a lot of people disagreewith me like, oh, that wasn't
necessary, before or during thetime that Carissa was mentoring
me, training Cyps EI went withanother young woman who used to
come out to the ranch all thetime and, and ride and, and play
with horses in the round pen anddo whatever we do, try on
equipment and go for rides.
(07:24):
And we decided to go to acompetition where there were.
I believe there were sixtrainers in six round pens who
were each brought in a horsethat was only halter broke.
And in a weekend they had aweekend to use whatever methods
they had in front of people.
(07:45):
There was an audience to trainthese horses and then ride them
through a mountain trail andobstacle course that was set up
in an indoor arena.
And we went both days, all dayand watched these different
trainers with these differenthorses, and some of them were
more successful than others.
We watched horses be verydysregulated.
(08:07):
We watched trainers go up, comedown, be aggressive, advance
retreat.
Use timing, release, all kindsof the things that natural
horsemanship does.
And at the end of the two days Isaid, sure, you can do that, but
at what cost?
What is that horse gonna be likelater?
(08:28):
That's that one trainer and thathorse over a weekend.
When that horse goes back to itsowner, do you think the owner
has those same skills, the samebody language, and will be able
to take and proceed and justride that horse?
No.
Absolutely not.
No.
So for decades it's beenstandard to, oh, won't you just
(08:51):
go take your horse to a trainerand put 30 days on it and get it
back and it'll be fine.
Well, sure if everybody speaksthe same language.
If everybody gets big andaggressive and dominant and
knows how to do that all thetime, that might work.
That worked for a long time.
Were the horse treated likeslaves?
Absolutely.
So some people will take 90 daysto put on a horse and that's
(09:15):
better.
I see a lot of horse trainersquit and they all have the same
complaint.
I can't help the people.
I can train a horse, but I can'tget people to understand what
I've done.
That's a big problem for thehorse, for the owner, the
(09:36):
keeper, and for the frustratedhorse trainer.
It's really hard to findsomebody to train a horse, which
is why I took Sipsy, you know,an hour away to this woman who I
thought would do good by her whodid not.
That's why I've waited and donefour years of groundwork with
(09:58):
Charlie not wanting to make amistake because my favorite
person mentor has a full-timejob doing something else and a
farm and family, and not a lotof time.
That's why I talk about thisstuff because there's change and
the change has come.
The change is coming.
It's, it's happening.
(10:19):
It's already happened in a lotof respects, but the change
brings with it more questions.
If we're gonna allow themchoice, we have to stand by it,
and that's hard.
It's really hard because peoplewanna ride horses because we're
habituated to riding horsesbecause we have, in our mind
(10:41):
still that language of just getbigger, make the horse, do it.
Take'em through it again.
Take'em, get off, and make'em doit.
And then get back on.
Make'em, make'em.
Make'em.
Dominance.
Dominance, dominance.
I found myself in two very, verydifferent places last week.
We went into the round pen.
(11:01):
I went into the round pen with awoman who teaches Continuum,
which is a quiet introspectivemovement meditation.
This woman also has a horse andshe choreographs with horses and
she's very present and anotherwoman who spends a lot of time
meditating and does EFT tapping.
(11:23):
So both of these women have ameditation practice, are very
centered, grounded.
Gentle and wanting to connect,and we could come into that
round pen with no agenda.
We spent seven hours inbeautiful horse time with
everybody's nervous systems,relaxed, playing with crystal
(11:45):
bowls and hand pans, and tappingand connecting, and we really
were welcomed into theirculture, their world of slow and
present.
Two days later, I had a trainercome who I had sent Charlie to
several months ago to put somerides on him because I have been
(12:08):
afraid to get on this horse.
I had back surgery.
I'm 62 years old and there wassomething in his history,
something in my intuition thathas said, don't get on.
I watched Carissa ride him.
I watched somebody else ridehim.
I hired two other trainers whocouldn't see where he was and
(12:32):
didn't wanna get on him either.
I mean, having a horse standstill at the mounting block,
taking a step or two that's aneasy fix.
It can do that in 10 minutes,but neither one of these other
young women would get on himeither.
So the horse has a don't get onme vibe.
Even though he's takes a saddle,he's very calm, he loves to come
(12:55):
up and, and nuzzle and be closeto you, and he's friendly and he
wants to be a good partner.
So I took him down and had this,this other trainer put some
rides on him and, and she hassimilar philosophies, so I
thought, well, this will workgreat.
So she did that and I went downand I wrote him, I wrote him on
a little trail ride and it wasgreat.
(13:17):
I could feel him come up underme.
I could feel that he wanted tobe a partner.
So the thing that I'd like toadd about being afraid to get on
Charlie, like other people hadhesitated and one of them had
actually figured out that sheknew the horse by a different
name'cause I had changed hisname.
That the young girl that soldhim to me had told this woman
(13:40):
that he had bucked, but she toldme that he only bolted.
So I think in my mind there'salways been this possibility
that what ended up happeningcould happen.
And even though I had this greatrelationship and still have a
great relationship with thehorse I didn't wanna get on him.
And so I did this tapping theEFT, tapping with my friend who.
(14:03):
Did it with me and the horse,and normally doing it with the
horse, you use a surrogate withan animal, but he was right
there, so she tapped right onhis body with him and with me
about both of our fears, aboutmy fear of getting on and about
his fear of humans from being aMustang and being branded and
caught and separated at the pensand GED and possibly injured
(14:27):
there.
Okay.
And there's one thing that I'vecome to in walking this line in
between how I wanna be withhorses and what tradition says,
and what dominant says andwhat's safe and what's not safe.
When do I wanna do what?
And, and a while back, likeprobably six years ago, I came
(14:48):
to the conclusion that forsafety, health, and travel, I
would be the leader.
I will be the benevolent leader.
I will use dominance if I haveto during those times because
they are under my care and I'mresponsible and I have no
problem stepping intoleadership.
Maybe part of the problem is Idon't know enough about horse
(15:10):
training to be able to trainhorses, but I'm not actually
trying to train horses.
I'm trying to hang out withhorses.
I'm trying to be coached totrain horses, and I would still
like to ride, and I don't knowwhy it's so hard.
And I'm looking forward topeople, you know, weighing in on
this and and telling me whatthey think.
(15:31):
So, and I don't think I'm theonly person with this type of
dilemma because more and morepeople are waking up to what's
possible with horses.
They're waking up to whathappens when we can connect with
them in these ways.
And a lot of people just quitwriting.
I mean, that might be where Iam.
I, I don't know.
(15:53):
But then she came here a couplemonths later and we did fine on
flat ground and we took him upon a trail on a hill.
And so in this situation, andgive you some more background,
the situation is I am.
(16:16):
I have complex PSDI am doingEMDR.
I am almost done.
It works really well and, i'mhappier than I've ever been.
I'm less reactive than I've everbeen, and I'm really looking
forward to finishing it andhaving no more trauma in my
life.
Okay.
I say that with a smile becausewe all know life happens, right?
But at least the cumulativestuff will be gone, and I'm way,
(16:36):
way more functional.
But what happens with EMDR iswhile you're working in a memory
chain, while you're processingand reprogramming that
particular memory.
The issue of that memory showsup in my life every single time.
So part of what I've beenworking on this week has been
(16:57):
choice, saying what I need tosay, where's the edge of
control?
That sometimes there's justnothing you can do.
Sometimes you can say yourpeace, but you can't control
other people's lives.
You can't control their actions.
You could be forceful and again,like this is like how alike is
this with horse training anddominance and making people do
(17:19):
something, right?
So this trainer and I both havea lot of experience, but we've
experience in different realms.
We have different experiencesand we've had different
teachers.
I trust her to be her ownperson, and I have hired her to
do a job.
(17:40):
So we're, we're in the round penand we're talking about
equipment.
We'd had a BLL on Charlie and Iwas gonna go ride with her, so I
needed the BLL for sipsy, orsomebody needed to wear a bit or
a halter.
So we chose a riding halter withknots before Charlie.
To give up the buzz so Sipsycould wear it.
(18:03):
I'm riding in a bareback pad,she's riding in a balanced ride
saddle.
And I ask, as I always do, doyou want a helmet?
Because helmets have saved mylife twice and because when I
was taught, I was taught, alwayswear a helmet.
You never know what's gonnahappen.
(18:23):
I've got some really dented uphelmets and I have a good brain
still.
Thank God.
So I asked a helmet, she didn'twant a helmet.
We walked up my driveway, walkedup the road, which scares the
shit outta me.
'cause sometimes there's logtrucks, but there weren't, it
was late in the day and up to atrail and we went up this trail.
(18:48):
And the horse.
My horse didn't wanna go, gothrough the gate.
She didn't wanna go through thegate to, to the trail, and I had
to get off and walk her.
I had to walk her for a whileand then I got back on.
And I should say that the onetrail ride I've been on in I
four or five years is onCharlie, down at her place.
(19:12):
So when I've ridden, I've riddenup and down the driveway.
I've ridden in the pasture.
I've ridden for about 15 to 20minutes at a time.
'cause that's all I wanna do andthat's all my horse wants to do,
has wanted to do.
So as we're, as we're doingthis, Charlie's going along just
fine.
He walks out like he could keepup with any gated horse, like
he's got a nice forward walk.
(19:33):
And we started up, my horse was,was misbehaving.
My horse was saying, I don'twanna do that.
So here's a point at which Ineed to make a choice.
Am I gonna force her?
Is old school coming back intomy head, make her do it.
Get off and make her do it.
Don't leave off here.
That's bad training.
(19:54):
And I can tell you thatCarissa's told me many, many
times it's okay to just get off.
That's okay.
It's better to get off than toget hurt.
It's not gonna destroy yourrelationship.
Like staying on my.
So I got, I got off her and Idid make her, I made her, I made
her go up this little berm ofdirt, which, you know, we walked
(20:15):
it three times.
I got back on her and I made herdo it with me on her back, and
that was a success.
I probably should have stoppedthere, but I'm looking up the
hill.
I.
And the last time we'd walked,we'd done some horse hiking on
this, in this place, on thistrail.
And the last time Charlie hadbeen really interested in what
was up that hill.
So I suggested that she take himup the hill and see what
(20:38):
happened.
And I would just walk ssy up thehill and it might take me a
little while.
And she did that.
So I'm halfway up the hillwalking my horse.
She's at the top of the hill andI can see them escalating.
She's turning him in circlesagain.
He has a halter on.
He's had trouble balancing.
And I say, how about you get offhim and you ride Sipsy and I'll
(21:02):
just walk with Charlie for awhile.
That's what felt right to me, tomy knowing.
We gotta listen to ourintuition.
And she said, no, no.
I can teach him how to navigatedown this hill and how to carry
my weight.
I'm like, okay.
So I'm watching them and Charlieand I had an agreement if.
(21:24):
You need me to get off your backinstead of bucking, I want you
to take your nose and touch myboot.
And he had done that to me thecouple two times that I'd been
on him since I'd brought himhome from her house.
I'd been on him for five minutesand he put his nose on my boot
and I got off again.
There's nothing wrong withgetting off.
I mean, you're not thinking alot of forward progress, but in
(21:46):
my mind, there's a reason he'sasking me to get off.
And yeah, that's a hard edge.
Is that the reason?
Like we always doubt ourselves.
I set up this communication.
Can I trust it?
Does it mean something else?
Can I push through it?
Where is the edge?
Where's the edge?
So I see him do this with her.
(22:07):
He puts his nose on her boot andhe looks at me, aren't you gonna
do something?
That's how I read it.
Again, I've paid her to do ajob.
I've spoken my piece.
The next thing that happens ishe starts running down the hill
that's covered with big gravel.
And I'm like, oh no, this is notgood.
(22:29):
This is not good.
She can't grab a one arm stop inthis halter.
She would've, if she'd put a bitin his mouth, she would've been
able to.
And next thing you know, hestarts bucking and she comes up
over the top of him.
And just one flip in the air andone shoulder roll flip on the
(22:52):
ground, and I'm like, oh mygosh, she's hurt.
She says, my clavicle is broken.
I don't doubt that one bit.
She's also scraped up.
She's hit her head.
I'm holding my horse.
I'm trying to calm Charlie down,who is still bucking and is
coming down to her, so I movehim over.
(23:16):
So.
He, she's not in his trajectoryas he's bucking down the hill
and I bring my horse closertrying to get the rain, which is
a loop rope from a halter thatis now on his front foot.
And I try to calm him.
(23:36):
I'm grounding my feet.
I'm like, it's okay, Charlie.
It's okay.
And I think I'm gonna get himcalm and just when I think I'm
gonna get him calm, I step overto try to get the rope.
I let go of my horse and she'slike, no, it's a much better
idea for us to run home.
So they ran off down the hillwith him.
Rain looped over front leg, hertrailing her loop also.
(24:00):
I'm like, I just hope they gohome.
I hope that's what happens.
'cause we're half a mile away,maybe a little more, and there's
a road with traffic on it, whichscared the crap outta me, but my
brain is offline.
Like I.
I am in reptilian brain.
I am fight or flight.
My mouth is dry.
(24:20):
I have adrenaline.
I don't know what to do next.
I'm barely thinking and I'mlike, okay, is she okay?
And she's like, go get thehorses.
I'm fine.
I'm like, no, I'm not leavingyou here.
So I get her up, she's able towalk.
We try to assess her neck, herback, and thank goodness she's
young.
And we proceed to walk down thehill.
(24:42):
So these, these two things thathappened last week are in such
sharp, sharp contrast.
We have this lovely seven hourday where there's no sense of
time and nothing but connectionand regulation and the series of
pretty horrible events that endin a trip to the emergency room
(25:03):
and a horse that I don't knowwhat to do next with i need to
include that part of where mysubconscious brain has been last
week and what I've beenprocessing has manifested in
real time, and the traumaticmemory that I'm processing is
(25:31):
huge.
It was my son's suicide, where Ialso felt very helpless, tried
to help, said what I could, andin the end I could do nothing.
And it repeats itself because wecreate with our thoughts, our
(25:52):
words, our deeds, and ouractions.
And let me add our subconscious.
So, I mean, there's a lot ofthings that should, I have
waited for a different week.
I mean, there's always somethingthat we're processing.
Right.
And the trainer.
As I'm apologizing for whathappened to her, I mean, it's my
horse.
It's not my fault, but it's myhorse.
(26:13):
She keeps saying things happenfor a reason.
It's okay.
Maybe he saved me from gettingon a worse horse where I might
have been killed, which is agreat attitude to have, right?
So I don't know if it's becausemy, I have an autistic brain
that I see all of the manylayers of this.
You know, I've had friends sayto me, you know, people just
(26:35):
don't think that much aboutstuff, is she not like you do?
And I've heard Elon Musk in oneinterview said, you have no idea
what it's like to be in mybrain.
And I have a small idea, likehis brain is way bigger with way
more ideas than mine.
(26:56):
And, and mine will shut offprobably thanks to the horses.
But the way we have to think,the way we, we have to
completely.
See all the different sides andcausations and threads that are
related to any particular issue.
Like I want part of this to beabout that.
(27:20):
I want people to understand thatbecause if you don't think about
things deeply and, and maybemore people do, then I think, I
don't know, like we're stilllearning so much about autism
and autistic brains and.
On the spectrum.
This has just come into myawareness.
That makes so much sense.
Every autistic person is gonnahave times where they're
(27:42):
dysregulated and overwhelmed,and then they're very
functional.
And within that we also have alot of people that have
developmental disabilities wherethey're very challenged, not
necessarily because of autism,but in addition to autism.
And they're gonna function welland function not well with
(28:02):
overwhelm, but their base level.
Is different, just like thereare different levels of iq,
emotional intelligence, and allkinds of other perspectives in
people that are not on thespectrum.
And I think all of this isimportant to understand because
the terms that we're using, likedisability or high functioning
(28:30):
or not accurate to what we'retrying to describe, they're not
helpful at all.
In the least.
I know that's off subject, butit's not because we're talking
about my experience.
My podcast is about horses andabout autism and how these
things are interrelated.
And it's also about psychology.
So I am gonna call in people.
(28:54):
To comment on this and my bigquestion is what do I do?
Like am I at a point, and I wassaying this in the round pen,
right before we went on thetrail ride.
I might be done riding, I mightbe done riding because my horse
Sy doesn't really wanna beridden anymore.
She wants to hang out in theround pen with singing bowls and
(29:14):
dancers and tappers and peoplethat are just being present and
wanna be.
Because what horses seem toreally be here to teach us is
how to be, and I think the Kaiwhat's her name?
(29:34):
I can't think of her last name,Kai.
With the telepathy tapes, she'sgetting to a point where I think
she's saying that the nonverbalautistic children that meet on
the hill telepathically aresaying the same thing.
Our world is about to shift thescience that's now documenting
how intention manifests in thefield, how powerful intention in
(29:59):
our subconscious minds are.
The science is catching up.
I can't help but think it'srelated to ai, but here I go, on
and on.
Lots of stuff to think about.
The main question is here, whatdo I do with Charlie?
The dilemma, do I just have himbe a therapy horse, let him be,
(30:26):
or do I try to get him trainedafter Now probably having two
bad experiences under saddle.
One of the reasons that I toldSissy that she needed to be
trained was if something happensto me, you need to have value as
a horse to other people so youdon't end up at the
(30:46):
slaughterhouse.
That's why you need to know howto be ridden.
What are we doing?
What are we doing with horses?
I can't wait to hear what theyhave to say.
Thanks for listening.
Hi, I am Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I'm gonna tell you a storyand I give you some background
talk about several differentthings, including what it's like
to have an autistic brain.
The line that I've been walkingfor nearly 10 years about riding
horses and how I interact withthem and what I call horse ship.
(00:23):
After telling you the story ofwhat happened last week, I am
going to ask a couple of waymore experienced horse people.
What their take on it is, whatthey would do to proceed and for
them to just comment on theirperspective of what happens.
Because when we walk two worlds,when we connect with horses and
(00:49):
want horse ship.
We have to leave a lot of thingsbehind and just like we wanna
create a habitual ness intraining horses, we have been
habit habituated in how otherhorse people trained us and
whatever tradition that was, andit's hard to shake some of that
(01:11):
loose.
And our emotional state isconstantly reflected.
And I believe that whateverwe're processing unconsciously
and constantly, our brains arecomputers.
We are constantly processingwhatever it is that we're
processing is creating ourworld.
(01:34):
Because I truly believe that ourthoughts are words, our deeds
and our actions create thereality that we live in.
So you may have heard me talkabout my horse Charlie before.
Charlie is a 9-year-old Mustangthat I bought from a young girl.
She was 18 and she had gottenthe horse from the person who,
(01:56):
the trainer that took it fromthe, I'm wanna call it the
reservation, who took the horsefrom the Mustang pens.
And Halter trained it.
And this girl, it was this younggirl's first project on her own
to train this horse, and she hadsome mentoring.
When I first put the horse inthe round pen, it was frantic,
(02:18):
it was anxious.
It kept doing quick turns aboutthe size of the pen.
It had been kept in.
It did not demonstrate balance,it did not demonstrate any kind
of calmness or regulation.
And I took with me a woman Iused to respect quite a bit,
who'd been a horse woman herwhole life and had successfully
(02:41):
trained many, many horses in oldschool methods with a big heart
and wanted her opinion on it.
We brought this horse home andthe story that the young girl
had told me is that she'd done alot of groundwork.
She'd gotten on the horse onceand it had bolted, not bucked,
but bolted.
(03:02):
And I thought, you know,consulting with this experienced
horse, woman that, you know, Ithink we can start at the
beginning, retrain the horse andit shouldn't be a problem.
So I wanna back up a little bitand tell you what my my
experience has been at thatpoint.
Training horses.
So I have another horse namedCsy, who you've heard me talk
(03:23):
about and I had a mentor help metrain Csy.
That's Issa.
You've probably heard her speak.
If you've listened to all of mypodcasts iE was a checked out
horse, so there was never a fearof her taking off or running.
She was really checked out, sowe had to really coax her.
In fact, it was three monthsgetting on her back frequently
(03:47):
before I could actually get herto take steps because she was so
afraid of ropes, and she'd beenso mistreated that like kicking
her or waving a rope behind herwas just not an option.
It wasn't an option.
I remember one lesson Carissagave me on her old mare, where
for an hour she had me sit onthis horse in the pasture and
(04:09):
predict which leg would movenext to bring my awareness to
how the horse moved, becausethat would translate into how I
would communicate with Sipsy toget her feet moving.
Oh, Chris has a lot of.
A lot of methods, a lot ofthings that really work that I
(04:31):
think other people don't knowabout.
So my experience was that I hadhelped train Sipsy by being
given homework to do, and thatCarissa actually trained her and
worked her when she came once amonth.
And then I would do the homeworkand learn what to do and create.
(04:54):
The relationship with thishorse.
So I'm planning to do somethingsimilar with this horse,
Charlie, as I bring him home.
That's the plan.
I also wanna include in myhistory in, in my conscious
mind, what happened when I endedup sending Csy to another
trainer to put some finish workon her.
I wanted her to understand herleads better.
(05:15):
I wanted her to be able to dropinto elope, which she'd been
resistant to do.
This was after she'd had yearsof training.
That was very slow.
So I've gone really, really slowin whatever I do with untrained
horses because I don't wannamake a mistake.
I don't wanna create a trauma inthem that then I have to
backtrack to try to figure out,because I'm not sure what I'm
(05:38):
doing to begin with.
I have to have help.
And you know, we all know whatwe know.
We all start where we start.
So that's my history with, withbringing Charlie home.
That's my history with sendingCsy.
Oh, I sent her to this othertrainer and I believed that this
woman would be okay.
I sent Chris a video of thewoman riding.
(05:59):
She seemed like she could ride.
Okay.
She got CSI's attention rightaway.
She was very very big anddefinitely in charge, and the
woman said I could come visitonce a week.
We would check in and she didn'tcheck in with me.
I tried to visit.
She told me it wasn't a goodtime, three different times.
And finally I got in the trailerand went down there before she
(06:21):
was done to find my horse haddropped like 50 pounds, which
wasn't a bad thing'cause she wasoverweight.
But in that amount of time itseemed a bit severe.
And when I came and found CypsE, she was in a paddock with
another horse.
I.
(06:42):
Who wasn't letting her eat andshe was just standing there
completely checked out.
She didn't acknowledge me, shedidn't look at me.
She was just inward, like when Ihad got like worse than when I
had got her.
So when I brought her home, itwas another year on the ground
to reestablish trust andrelationship before we could
pick up our training again.
(07:02):
And a lot of people disagreewith me like, oh, that wasn't
necessary, before or during thetime that Carissa was mentoring
me, training Cyps EI went withanother young woman who used to
come out to the ranch all thetime and, and ride and, and play
with horses in the round pen anddo whatever we do, try on
equipment and go for rides.
(07:24):
And we decided to go to acompetition where there were.
I believe there were sixtrainers in six round pens who
were each brought in a horsethat was only halter broke.
And in a weekend they had aweekend to use whatever methods
they had in front of people.
(07:45):
There was an audience to trainthese horses and then ride them
through a mountain trail andobstacle course that was set up
in an indoor arena.
And we went both days, all dayand watched these different
trainers with these differenthorses, and some of them were
more successful than others.
We watched horses be verydysregulated.
(08:07):
We watched trainers go up, comedown, be aggressive, advance
retreat.
Use timing, release, all kindsof the things that natural
horsemanship does.
And at the end of the two days Isaid, sure, you can do that, but
at what cost?
What is that horse gonna be likelater?
(08:28):
That's that one trainer and thathorse over a weekend.
When that horse goes back to itsowner, do you think the owner
has those same skills, the samebody language, and will be able
to take and proceed and justride that horse?
No.
Absolutely not.
No.
So for decades it's beenstandard to, oh, won't you just
(08:51):
go take your horse to a trainerand put 30 days on it and get it
back and it'll be fine.
Well, sure if everybody speaksthe same language.
If everybody gets big andaggressive and dominant and
knows how to do that all thetime, that might work.
That worked for a long time.
Were the horse treated likeslaves?
Absolutely.
So some people will take 90 daysto put on a horse and that's
(09:15):
better.
I see a lot of horse trainersquit and they all have the same
complaint.
I can't help the people.
I can train a horse, but I can'tget people to understand what
I've done.
That's a big problem for thehorse, for the owner, the
(09:36):
keeper, and for the frustratedhorse trainer.
It's really hard to findsomebody to train a horse, which
is why I took Sipsy, you know,an hour away to this woman who I
thought would do good by her whodid not.
That's why I've waited and donefour years of groundwork with
(09:58):
Charlie not wanting to make amistake because my favorite
person mentor has a full-timejob doing something else and a
farm and family, and not a lotof time.
That's why I talk about thisstuff because there's change and
the change has come.
The change is coming.
It's, it's happening.
(10:19):
It's already happened in a lotof respects, but the change
brings with it more questions.
If we're gonna allow themchoice, we have to stand by it,
and that's hard.
It's really hard because peoplewanna ride horses because we're
habituated to riding horsesbecause we have, in our mind
(10:41):
still that language of just getbigger, make the horse, do it.
Take'em through it again.
Take'em, get off, and make'em doit.
And then get back on.
Make'em, make'em.
Make'em.
Dominance.
Dominance, dominance.
I found myself in two very, verydifferent places last week.
We went into the round pen.
(11:01):
I went into the round pen with awoman who teaches Continuum,
which is a quiet introspectivemovement meditation.
This woman also has a horse andshe choreographs with horses and
she's very present and anotherwoman who spends a lot of time
meditating and does EFT tapping.
(11:23):
So both of these women have ameditation practice, are very
centered, grounded.
Gentle and wanting to connect,and we could come into that
round pen with no agenda.
We spent seven hours inbeautiful horse time with
everybody's nervous systems,relaxed, playing with crystal
(11:45):
bowls and hand pans, and tappingand connecting, and we really
were welcomed into theirculture, their world of slow and
present.
Two days later, I had a trainercome who I had sent Charlie to
several months ago to put somerides on him because I have been
(12:08):
afraid to get on this horse.
I had back surgery.
I'm 62 years old and there wassomething in his history,
something in my intuition thathas said, don't get on.
I watched Carissa ride him.
I watched somebody else ridehim.
I hired two other trainers whocouldn't see where he was and
(12:32):
didn't wanna get on him either.
I mean, having a horse standstill at the mounting block,
taking a step or two that's aneasy fix.
It can do that in 10 minutes,but neither one of these other
young women would get on himeither.
So the horse has a don't get onme vibe.
Even though he's takes a saddle,he's very calm, he loves to come
(12:55):
up and, and nuzzle and be closeto you, and he's friendly and he
wants to be a good partner.
So I took him down and had this,this other trainer put some
rides on him and, and she hassimilar philosophies, so I
thought, well, this will workgreat.
So she did that and I went downand I wrote him, I wrote him on
a little trail ride and it wasgreat.
(13:17):
I could feel him come up underme.
I could feel that he wanted tobe a partner.
So the thing that I'd like toadd about being afraid to get on
Charlie, like other people hadhesitated and one of them had
actually figured out that sheknew the horse by a different
name'cause I had changed hisname.
That the young girl that soldhim to me had told this woman
(13:40):
that he had bucked, but she toldme that he only bolted.
So I think in my mind there'salways been this possibility
that what ended up happeningcould happen.
And even though I had this greatrelationship and still have a
great relationship with thehorse I didn't wanna get on him.
And so I did this tapping theEFT, tapping with my friend who.
(14:03):
Did it with me and the horse,and normally doing it with the
horse, you use a surrogate withan animal, but he was right
there, so she tapped right onhis body with him and with me
about both of our fears, aboutmy fear of getting on and about
his fear of humans from being aMustang and being branded and
caught and separated at the pensand GED and possibly injured
(14:27):
there.
Okay.
And there's one thing that I'vecome to in walking this line in
between how I wanna be withhorses and what tradition says,
and what dominant says andwhat's safe and what's not safe.
When do I wanna do what?
And, and a while back, likeprobably six years ago, I came
(14:48):
to the conclusion that forsafety, health, and travel, I
would be the leader.
I will be the benevolent leader.
I will use dominance if I haveto during those times because
they are under my care and I'mresponsible and I have no
problem stepping intoleadership.
Maybe part of the problem is Idon't know enough about horse
(15:10):
training to be able to trainhorses, but I'm not actually
trying to train horses.
I'm trying to hang out withhorses.
I'm trying to be coached totrain horses, and I would still
like to ride, and I don't knowwhy it's so hard.
And I'm looking forward topeople, you know, weighing in on
this and and telling me whatthey think.
(15:31):
So, and I don't think I'm theonly person with this type of
dilemma because more and morepeople are waking up to what's
possible with horses.
They're waking up to whathappens when we can connect with
them in these ways.
And a lot of people just quitwriting.
I mean, that might be where Iam.
I, I don't know.
(15:53):
But then she came here a couplemonths later and we did fine on
flat ground and we took him upon a trail on a hill.
And so in this situation, andgive you some more background,
the situation is I am.
(16:16):
I have complex PSDI am doingEMDR.
I am almost done.
It works really well and, i'mhappier than I've ever been.
I'm less reactive than I've everbeen, and I'm really looking
forward to finishing it andhaving no more trauma in my
life.
Okay.
I say that with a smile becausewe all know life happens, right?
But at least the cumulativestuff will be gone, and I'm way,
(16:36):
way more functional.
But what happens with EMDR iswhile you're working in a memory
chain, while you're processingand reprogramming that
particular memory.
The issue of that memory showsup in my life every single time.
So part of what I've beenworking on this week has been
(16:57):
choice, saying what I need tosay, where's the edge of
control?
That sometimes there's justnothing you can do.
Sometimes you can say yourpeace, but you can't control
other people's lives.
You can't control their actions.
You could be forceful and again,like this is like how alike is
this with horse training anddominance and making people do
(17:19):
something, right?
So this trainer and I both havea lot of experience, but we've
experience in different realms.
We have different experiencesand we've had different
teachers.
I trust her to be her ownperson, and I have hired her to
do a job.
(17:40):
So we're, we're in the round penand we're talking about
equipment.
We'd had a BLL on Charlie and Iwas gonna go ride with her, so I
needed the BLL for sipsy, orsomebody needed to wear a bit or
a halter.
So we chose a riding halter withknots before Charlie.
To give up the buzz so Sipsycould wear it.
(18:03):
I'm riding in a bareback pad,she's riding in a balanced ride
saddle.
And I ask, as I always do, doyou want a helmet?
Because helmets have saved mylife twice and because when I
was taught, I was taught, alwayswear a helmet.
You never know what's gonnahappen.
(18:23):
I've got some really dented uphelmets and I have a good brain
still.
Thank God.
So I asked a helmet, she didn'twant a helmet.
We walked up my driveway, walkedup the road, which scares the
shit outta me.
'cause sometimes there's logtrucks, but there weren't, it
was late in the day and up to atrail and we went up this trail.
(18:48):
And the horse.
My horse didn't wanna go, gothrough the gate.
She didn't wanna go through thegate to, to the trail, and I had
to get off and walk her.
I had to walk her for a whileand then I got back on.
And I should say that the onetrail ride I've been on in I
four or five years is onCharlie, down at her place.
(19:12):
So when I've ridden, I've riddenup and down the driveway.
I've ridden in the pasture.
I've ridden for about 15 to 20minutes at a time.
'cause that's all I wanna do andthat's all my horse wants to do,
has wanted to do.
So as we're, as we're doingthis, Charlie's going along just
fine.
He walks out like he could keepup with any gated horse, like
he's got a nice forward walk.
(19:33):
And we started up, my horse was,was misbehaving.
My horse was saying, I don'twanna do that.
So here's a point at which Ineed to make a choice.
Am I gonna force her?
Is old school coming back intomy head, make her do it.
Get off and make her do it.
Don't leave off here.
That's bad training.
(19:54):
And I can tell you thatCarissa's told me many, many
times it's okay to just get off.
That's okay.
It's better to get off than toget hurt.
It's not gonna destroy yourrelationship.
Like staying on my.
So I got, I got off her and Idid make her, I made her, I made
her go up this little berm ofdirt, which, you know, we walked
(20:15):
it three times.
I got back on her and I made herdo it with me on her back, and
that was a success.
I probably should have stoppedthere, but I'm looking up the
hill.
I.
And the last time we'd walked,we'd done some horse hiking on
this, in this place, on thistrail.
And the last time Charlie hadbeen really interested in what
was up that hill.
So I suggested that she take himup the hill and see what
(20:38):
happened.
And I would just walk ssy up thehill and it might take me a
little while.
And she did that.
So I'm halfway up the hillwalking my horse.
She's at the top of the hill andI can see them escalating.
She's turning him in circlesagain.
He has a halter on.
He's had trouble balancing.
And I say, how about you get offhim and you ride Sipsy and I'll
(21:02):
just walk with Charlie for awhile.
That's what felt right to me, tomy knowing.
We gotta listen to ourintuition.
And she said, no, no.
I can teach him how to navigatedown this hill and how to carry
my weight.
I'm like, okay.
So I'm watching them and Charlieand I had an agreement if.
(21:24):
You need me to get off your backinstead of bucking, I want you
to take your nose and touch myboot.
And he had done that to me thecouple two times that I'd been
on him since I'd brought himhome from her house.
I'd been on him for five minutesand he put his nose on my boot
and I got off again.
There's nothing wrong withgetting off.
I mean, you're not thinking alot of forward progress, but in
(21:46):
my mind, there's a reason he'sasking me to get off.
And yeah, that's a hard edge.
Is that the reason?
Like we always doubt ourselves.
I set up this communication.
Can I trust it?
Does it mean something else?
Can I push through it?
Where is the edge?
Where's the edge?
So I see him do this with her.
(22:07):
He puts his nose on her boot andhe looks at me, aren't you gonna
do something?
That's how I read it.
Again, I've paid her to do ajob.
I've spoken my piece.
The next thing that happens ishe starts running down the hill
that's covered with big gravel.
And I'm like, oh no, this is notgood.
(22:29):
This is not good.
She can't grab a one arm stop inthis halter.
She would've, if she'd put a bitin his mouth, she would've been
able to.
And next thing you know, hestarts bucking and she comes up
over the top of him.
And just one flip in the air andone shoulder roll flip on the
(22:52):
ground, and I'm like, oh mygosh, she's hurt.
She says, my clavicle is broken.
I don't doubt that one bit.
She's also scraped up.
She's hit her head.
I'm holding my horse.
I'm trying to calm Charlie down,who is still bucking and is
coming down to her, so I movehim over.
(23:16):
So.
He, she's not in his trajectoryas he's bucking down the hill
and I bring my horse closertrying to get the rain, which is
a loop rope from a halter thatis now on his front foot.
And I try to calm him.
(23:36):
I'm grounding my feet.
I'm like, it's okay, Charlie.
It's okay.
And I think I'm gonna get himcalm and just when I think I'm
gonna get him calm, I step overto try to get the rope.
I let go of my horse and she'slike, no, it's a much better
idea for us to run home.
So they ran off down the hillwith him.
Rain looped over front leg, hertrailing her loop also.
(24:00):
I'm like, I just hope they gohome.
I hope that's what happens.
'cause we're half a mile away,maybe a little more, and there's
a road with traffic on it, whichscared the crap outta me, but my
brain is offline.
Like I.
I am in reptilian brain.
I am fight or flight.
My mouth is dry.
(24:20):
I have adrenaline.
I don't know what to do next.
I'm barely thinking and I'mlike, okay, is she okay?
And she's like, go get thehorses.
I'm fine.
I'm like, no, I'm not leavingyou here.
So I get her up, she's able towalk.
We try to assess her neck, herback, and thank goodness she's
young.
And we proceed to walk down thehill.
(24:42):
So these, these two things thathappened last week are in such
sharp, sharp contrast.
We have this lovely seven hourday where there's no sense of
time and nothing but connectionand regulation and the series of
pretty horrible events that endin a trip to the emergency room
(25:03):
and a horse that I don't knowwhat to do next with i need to
include that part of where mysubconscious brain has been last
week and what I've beenprocessing has manifested in
real time, and the traumaticmemory that I'm processing is
(25:31):
huge.
It was my son's suicide, where Ialso felt very helpless, tried
to help, said what I could, andin the end I could do nothing.
And it repeats itself because wecreate with our thoughts, our
(25:52):
words, our deeds, and ouractions.
And let me add our subconscious.
So, I mean, there's a lot ofthings that should, I have
waited for a different week.
I mean, there's always somethingthat we're processing.
Right.
And the trainer.
As I'm apologizing for whathappened to her, I mean, it's my
horse.
It's not my fault, but it's myhorse.
(26:13):
She keeps saying things happenfor a reason.
It's okay.
Maybe he saved me from gettingon a worse horse where I might
have been killed, which is agreat attitude to have, right?
So I don't know if it's becausemy, I have an autistic brain
that I see all of the manylayers of this.
You know, I've had friends sayto me, you know, people just
(26:35):
don't think that much aboutstuff, is she not like you do?
And I've heard Elon Musk in oneinterview said, you have no idea
what it's like to be in mybrain.
And I have a small idea, likehis brain is way bigger with way
more ideas than mine.
(26:56):
And, and mine will shut offprobably thanks to the horses.
But the way we have to think,the way we, we have to
completely.
See all the different sides andcausations and threads that are
related to any particular issue.
Like I want part of this to beabout that.
(27:20):
I want people to understand thatbecause if you don't think about
things deeply and, and maybemore people do, then I think, I
don't know, like we're stilllearning so much about autism
and autistic brains and.
On the spectrum.
This has just come into myawareness.
That makes so much sense.
Every autistic person is gonnahave times where they're
(27:42):
dysregulated and overwhelmed,and then they're very
functional.
And within that we also have alot of people that have
developmental disabilities wherethey're very challenged, not
necessarily because of autism,but in addition to autism.
And they're gonna function welland function not well with
(28:02):
overwhelm, but their base level.
Is different, just like thereare different levels of iq,
emotional intelligence, and allkinds of other perspectives in
people that are not on thespectrum.
And I think all of this isimportant to understand because
the terms that we're using, likedisability or high functioning
(28:30):
or not accurate to what we'retrying to describe, they're not
helpful at all.
In the least.
I know that's off subject, butit's not because we're talking
about my experience.
My podcast is about horses andabout autism and how these
things are interrelated.
And it's also about psychology.
So I am gonna call in people.
(28:54):
To comment on this and my bigquestion is what do I do?
Like am I at a point, and I wassaying this in the round pen,
right before we went on thetrail ride.
I might be done riding, I mightbe done riding because my horse
Sy doesn't really wanna beridden anymore.
She wants to hang out in theround pen with singing bowls and
(29:14):
dancers and tappers and peoplethat are just being present and
wanna be.
Because what horses seem toreally be here to teach us is
how to be, and I think the Kaiwhat's her name?
(29:34):
I can't think of her last name,Kai.
With the telepathy tapes, she'sgetting to a point where I think
she's saying that the nonverbalautistic children that meet on
the hill telepathically aresaying the same thing.
Our world is about to shift thescience that's now documenting
how intention manifests in thefield, how powerful intention in
(29:59):
our subconscious minds are.
The science is catching up.
I can't help but think it'srelated to ai, but here I go, on
and on.
Lots of stuff to think about.
The main question is here, whatdo I do with Charlie?
The dilemma, do I just have himbe a therapy horse, let him be,
(30:26):
or do I try to get him trainedafter Now probably having two
bad experiences under saddle.
One of the reasons that I toldSissy that she needed to be
trained was if something happensto me, you need to have value as
a horse to other people so youdon't end up at the
(30:46):
slaughterhouse.
That's why you need to know howto be ridden.
What are we doing?
What are we doing with horses?
I can't wait to hear what theyhave to say.
Thanks for listening.
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