March 20, 2025 • 34 mins
This episode was inspired by a talk given to therapy interns. Check out the resources below- We covered a lot of topics related to this one. I love hearing the input and feedback, so please dont be shy.
Movies/Shows
"Heartland"
"Rescued Hearts" film- to be released soon! A documentaty you dont want to miss!
Books;
'The Tao of Equuas". ~ Linda kohanov
"The Art of Facilitation, with 28 equine activities". ~ Charisse Rufdolf
" Horse Brain Human Brain" Dr. Jones
"Horse Boy" & all books by Rupert Isaacson
https://naturallifemanship.com
https://www.equinewisdominstitute.org/
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Samson Q2U Microphone & Fac (00:01):
Hi, this is Ishii Abel, the Horse
Human Connection Matrix podcast.
Today, I want to talk a littlebit about what's available for
equine therapists.
I'm going to give a talk to someinterns.
And it occurred to me that thismight just be a great subject
for a podcast as well.
(00:21):
So, I want to talk a little bitabout the history of horses.
What my purpose is, the thingsI've noticed, the science, the
myth, and the magic.
I want to list some of thepeople that are highly, highly
influenced this industry andthat have also influenced my
opinions and the work that I do.
(00:42):
I want to talk about a fewcertification programs and what
those things are and kind ofbring things back to therapy and
throw in a little bit of stuffabout autism as well.
So here we go.
An awful lot of horse.
(01:03):
And this has got to bring imagesup to all of us through our
modern media, whether that's theWells Fargo wagon, or Westerns,
or movies that we've seen abouthorses carrying men into
battles, or pulling chariotsfrom the earliest times pulling
plows, Of course, man, woman,and horse have had this
(01:28):
relationship for many, many,many, many, many years.
And how did it start?
There's a fanciful chapter in abook called Clan of the Cave
Bear, which, going way back now,deals with a time on the Earth
when there were Neanderthals andCro Magnon Man.
(01:50):
And in this novel, that is verywell done, documented and
substantiated in many of thethings that it talks about
between herbalism andflintknapping and, and a lot of
the science.
Anyway there's a chapter wherethis woman gets on a horse.
And you can imagine that thiscould very well be that the very
first time a human decided toget on a horse.
(02:14):
And, I love what that capturedin me when I read it because
it's almost as if the horse isinviting her.
And I imagine that's the way itwas now that I know these
creatures so well.
Being able to train a horse togo into battle the way the
Romans did, the way It's beendone throughout history the way
(02:36):
George Washington did.
George Washington was anexceptional horseman and I have
a feeling that that's why herelated so well to his troops
and his soldiers as well.
The trust that you have to haveto take a prey animal into a
situation where you're gonna Cutpeople and make blood and kill
(02:57):
people on its back.
That kind of trust, that kind ofpartnership is, is, is just
like, it blows my mind thatwe've been doing this for so
long and that those things wouldgo against a horse's nature in
so many respects.
So that being said, it's not ahuge jump for me that horses
(03:19):
have wanted to be our partners.
Why else would they?
Why else would this relationshiphave lasted so long?
So, when I began to learn abouthorses, which was when I was a
child, and then much later, as aperson in her 40s, I've There
(03:41):
was a lot to learn, a lot tolearn about being a leader, a
lot to learn about dominance andbossing horses around and
imitating herd behavior, or atleast specific parts of herd
behavior.
The parts where the lead mareand a stallion boss everybody
else around, but that's not allthey do.
And, and that's important tolook at the other ways that
(04:02):
herds interact, the members of ahorse herd interact with each
other.
So, As I began to study more andmore, something didn't sit right
with me.
And when I started to walk downthe road of Equine Assisted
Learning and went to get somehorse therapy for myself, I
(04:25):
realized some things.
I realized that horses are goingto show up really, really
differently when we're notasking them.
to do all this stuff for us whenwe're not treating them like
slaves, which is essentially theway that traditional
horsemanships have treatedhorses.
(04:46):
We capture them, we keep them,we feed them, we ask them to
work for us, we reward them, andwe punish them, and they are not
free.
That's pretty much what a slaveis.
When we ask them even if they'redomesticated horses to work with
us in an emotional way, and theystill may be slaves, but they
(05:13):
seem to be offered more choicesand just being recognized for
having these differentattributes and abilities.
Rather than just carrying peoplearound, bringing them into war,
pulling plows, and beingtransportation.
Asking them to participate on anintellectual and emotional level
(05:35):
elevates them.
It elevates the relationship.
And they show up differently.
And we begin to see them for whothey really are.
They are Amazing creatures whoare way, way smarter than most
people give them credit for.
I used to like to say this, andnow I realize that this is even
(05:57):
insulting.
That the average horse has anintelligence of a three or four
year old child.
Well, that may apply to theamount of language skills they
have.
But they have even more thanthat.
Like my older mare who's 30years old, a very smart horse to
begin with, a very old horsewho's been working with humans
(06:19):
and around humans for a verylong time, is way more than a
four year old child.
In fact sometimes she feels likemy mother.
Yes.
When we recognize what they'recapable of and Ask them to help
and treat them well.
(06:42):
All kinds of, all kinds ofwonderful things happen.
So, before I come back and talkabout some of the neuropathways,
the neuroscience, and the magic,I want to list some of the
people and talk briefly aboutthem.
So Linda Kohanov.
(07:05):
I hope I'm pronouncing thatright.
The Tao of Equus.
She's written a couple of otherbooks.
I consider her the grandmotherof equine therapy.
This woman had a horse who waslame and she couldn't ride it so
she began to walk with it inthese auroras of Arizona and
then she wrote a book about herexperiences and this horse began
(07:29):
to communicate with her and shebegan to have a very very deep
connection with this black marewho Who really began everything
that we do today, I believe.
Cherise Rudolph is a woman whowrote a book called The Art of
Facilitation with 28 EquineAssisted Activities.
(07:51):
I got to study with this womanbefore she retired from horses.
She is currently an artist.
And this was about experientiallearning.
Now Cherise started off withWorking with kids in outward
bound programs and then movedinto ropes courses and
eventually into equine therapyand ended up specializing in
(08:14):
veterans in the military andthen specifically women with
PTSD in the military.
And this book that she wrotewith all these beautiful equine
assisted activities to do whichpromote, experiential learning
is just phenomenal.
And I've, I've worked out of thebook with several different
(08:35):
groups.
I trained with her and theprocessing that takes place
afterwards is so unexpected.
I mean, these exercises we'regoing to bring things up for
people that you can't evenImagine that they're going to
bring up, and that's, that's thereal beauty of it.
It's not just the exercises,it's also how the horses show
(08:56):
up.
A very important book isHorsebrain Human Brain by Janet
Jones, Ph.
D.
That is like an essential thesedays.
Liz Mitton Ryan has done anincredible amount of work up in
Kamloops, British Columbia, andI was able to study with her as
well.
And just through meditation,With horses and channeling and
(09:21):
interacting with her herd.
The horses up there are arephenomenal also and a lot of
that work is done with heartmath.
A lot of what Sharice Rudolphdoes is also utilizes heart
math.
And if you're not familiar withheart math, that is definitely
something to look up.
It is advertised as a quickcoherence method, a way of
(09:45):
bringing our physiology backinto a, a more regulated state.
And that feeds into how weinteract with horses and the
loops that can be created, too.
The movie Rescued Hearts, whichhas not yet been released, but
should be this summer, is goingto be a very important
(10:08):
documentary documenting all theway that horses and humans and
how lives are changed by thoseconnections.
Most people are familiar withthe Netflix series Heartland,
the type of work and reflectionand mirroring done in this TV
sitcom.
It's a very well madeentertainment, as I see it.
(10:33):
But it also, it also tellswhat's possible with horses.
And The star of the show, whosename escapes me at the moment,
is instrumental in the moviethat I just mentioned, Rescued
Hearts.
She's in the movie, sheadvocates for the movie, and
it's gonna, it's gonna be great.
So, all of these people, all ofthese resources are available.
(11:01):
To learn more and to study fromand in my mind, I mean there are
others out there too, but in mymind these are what I have
found, what I have read, what Ihave followed, and what have
heavily influenced how I got tothis place.
For people to become certifiedin, in a modality, that
(11:26):
corresponds with their licensingas a counselor or a therapist or
for a lay person horse person tohave a certification that then
they can work with a therapist.
There are a lot of differentprograms and unfortunately
there's not a standardization.
(11:47):
There's not even a standardizedinitials that stand for this
work.
I use EPA for equine assistedpractices because it's broad in
general and can covereverything.
There's somebody else thatgrabbed those initials and used
them for their own program.
There are other broader initialsthat are out there.
And so that can be a littleconfusing.
(12:08):
So I think it's worth mentioningthat there's not a standardized
abbreviation for this type ofwork.
And maybe there shouldn't bebecause It varies so much as we
get a little deeper into it,you'll see how much it varies.
So PATH, ProfessionalAssociation of Therapeutic
Horsemanship.
(12:31):
They will certify people to bevery safe working with horses,
with children, with handicappedpeople, mentally and physically
with autistic people.
And I've read about theirprograms.
I've looked into doing it myselfand.
Decided not to.
When we're talking about thescience and the magic, this
(12:54):
program's been around for areally long time, and it does
good getting people with horses,but I don't think it scratches
the surface of what's possible.
EGALA is another very oldprogram, Equine Assisted Growth
and Learning Association.
So this is a program that beganwith some metaphors and with
(13:18):
horses.
Working with youth in detentionfacilities.
And they've done a lot of goodwork.
Again, they are, they've been inthere for a very long time.
And I'm not sure they've grownwith all of the knowledge that's
now available.
But, the history of equinetherapy is worth looking into.
(13:41):
In any way that it interestsyou.
As far as I'm concerned, anytime you get horses and people
together, well not any time, butalmost any time that you get
horses and people together withthe intention and atmosphere for
doing emotional work, somethinggood is going to come out of it,
(14:06):
as long as nobody is gettinghurt.
Equine Experiential EducationAssociation is called E& A.
Equisoma is Horse Human TraumaRecovery.
Rupert Isaacson, who we'll talka little bit about, and who I
have an interview on my podcastwith, is also an author, the
(14:31):
author of Horse Boy, the movieHorse Boy, the method Horse Boy.
So, This will segue into some ofthe science.
I'm just going to mention DeweyFreeman as well with attachment
and mirroring effect and there'slinks in the email that I sent
about, about these things.
(14:51):
I would definitely have a lookinto them.
So let's talk about Rupert for alittle bit.
Rupert had been a horse trainerand he was a journalist and he
had a six year old nonverbalincontinent.
autistic son that they hadstruggled with for six years.
(15:11):
And I think when the child wasabout four, he wandered next
door and Rupert found him in astall with a horse.
And did not panic because he hadtrained horses and he could see
that, you know, there wasn't animmediate danger.
But he did end up going andtalking to the man that owned
the horse, who didn't ride thehorse anymore, and got
(15:33):
permission to start taking hisson on rides.
Well, the child loved this.
And Rupert noticed that while onthe horse, his son was calmer,
was regulated better and seemedto be more aware of his
surroundings.
(15:54):
Later, Rupert had an opportunityas a journalist to go on a six
week horseback riding journeywith shaman through Mongolia.
And this just, this is one ofthose things that just fell into
place, you know,serendipitously.
And so he brought his wife andthe child.
And over the six weeks,Traveling through Mongolia on
(16:19):
horseback, the autistic boy hasbreakthroughs that are
incredible.
So when he gets home, Rupertfinds a neuroscience and said,
even though he was with shaman,even though he understands
shaman and has a very strongbelief system in this, he wanted
to know if and what the sciencewas.
(16:42):
And what they came up with wasmovement of the hips releases
the neurochemical oxytocin whichis a feel good chemical that
helps us regulate and helps uslearn and connect.
I still think there's more to itthan that, but I'm sure that
(17:05):
that's true also.
Dewey Freeman has a slightlydifferent opinion about what
happens with the hips of a horseand connecting with humans.
I'll let you watch the, theYouTube to find out more about
that because it too isinteresting.
I want to highly, highlyrecommend as a resource, not
(17:27):
just because I'm the one doingthe interview, but because the
most knowledgeable person I knowabout horses and horse therapy
is a woman that taught me a lotof this.
And her name is is CarissaSchmidt.
And the interview that I havenot released yet, but should be
(17:48):
released hopefully next week iswith her, and her commenting
about all of this.
And she can comment about itfrom a clinical standpoint, and
from an expert horsemanshipstandpoint, which you don't want
to miss.
So there's more ground to coverhere.
Let's let's go back a little bitto more of the neuroscience.
(18:12):
Horses don't see the same way wedo.
They have eyes on the side oftheir head.
They're prey animals.
If you walk a horse through thebarn, And a hose is always ruled
up a particular way.
And most barn aisles, commercialbarns are going to have hoses to
fill the water buckets that arein the stalls.
That horse sees that hosedifferently every single time
(18:35):
that it's been moved.
It has to process, is itdangerous?
What changed in my environment?
And of course, older horses thathave been there for a really
long time are going to becomesomewhat desensitized to it.
But when we're out on a trail,or even in an arena, With the
sun coming in at a differentangle, or through a different
window, or a different time ofday, or something shiny on the
(18:59):
floor, or a jacket hanging overa stall door, all of these
things have changed in thehorse's environment and register
in their brains as possibledanger.
So when a horse feels danger, itwill become dysregulated.
Because they can become soeasily dysregulated, and do
(19:22):
frequently, even indomestication, even in
environments where they're usedto things, they have to get
really good at becomingregulated again.
So just like people becomeemotionally dysregulated, the
horses are going to feed off ofpeople, just like they'll feed
(19:42):
off of the other animals in aherd.
So in a herd of horses, in awild herd of horses, they have a
connection with theirelectromagnetic field in their
heart.
They are hypervigilant, they'reprey animals.
The lead mare is responsible forknowing the environment the
(20:08):
best.
For knowing every individual thebest.
So that if A horse grazing onthe outside of the herd is the
first to hear something in thebushes that might be a predator.
It will become dysregulated.
It will, its ears will move, itsheart rate will change, and that
lead mare will know that.
(20:30):
And then that lead mare willdecide it's time to run or Maybe
just one or two horses willinvestigate a little bit and
then it might be time to run.
Whatever the decision is, she'smaking that decision.
But she's making it quicklybecause she's so in touch with
(20:51):
the herd.
And every member of that herd isconnected.
Can you see how this behaviorcan translate to working with
humans and giving them a senseof belonging?
So even just sitting in a roundpen with a horse is going to
bring up feelings of in beingincluded and belonging that
(21:16):
humans aren't used to havingthat we rarely get from being
around other humans.
Just just one thing that and theability to regulate fairly
quickly, so they go up and comedown.
So the saying, and maybe you'veheard this, meet the person
(21:39):
where they are.
This is actually a horsetraining thing that's been
morphed into the therapy world.
Because in training a horse, youmeet them where they are.
And this is old school.
Before we got better at tellingabout the subtleties in training
(22:03):
a horse, where they are mostreceptive to learning, one of
the methods was, if the horse isreally up, get really up there
with the horse.
Make them, if they're afraid ofsomething, make them afraid of
you, and then bring them downtogether.
You can see how that translatesfrom the herd behavior.
Now, hopefully, most trainersknow a little bit more about
(22:24):
nuance, you know, and all ofthat isn't necessary, but a
version of it, a much milderversion of it, is still
effective.
Samson Q2U Microphone & Face (22:34):
As we've been talking about horses
and herd behavior and humantherapy and all that's
available, I think I'm beginningto make a picture where you can
understand how valuable horsesare in equine assisted learning
and in equine therapy and howthey mirror us.
(22:58):
I don't know if I talked verymuch about the mirroring effect,
but humans have mirror neuronsand horses, horses have
something.
I don't know what it is, butpart of the way they always show
up is about that mirroring andhow they show us what we need to
know.
It just, it happens all of thetime.
(23:21):
So, as I was talking with thesetherapy interns, it's, it's a
fine line to walk I think whenyou begin to bring animals into
therapy because we are temptedto do that thing, or to give
them more credit than is due, orto interpret things that seem
quite magical in different ways.
(23:42):
And it's hard not to get labeledas woo woo or way out there.
But when you start to come intothis world and you see what's
possible, and you see how theyhelp.
I would just say stay away fromit unless you have an open
enough mind and you're willingto walk that line and balance
(24:03):
it.
Because I think stillmaintaining your credibility
with colleagues may becomedifficult.
At some point people maybe don'tcare.
I don't care.
But I know people that work inthis field that are constantly
(24:25):
trying to navigate that, andit's not always easy.
I think some of the newerresearch, even though it may not
qualify in our quote unquotescientific world, but the
telepathy tapes.
The idea that is beingdocumented that autistic
children all over the world, Dr.
(24:46):
Hennessy Powell down in Medfordand some, some woman has made a
group of podcasts and gone to alot of trouble to scientifically
document how these occurrencesare happening and, and what is
going on.
But.
It doesn't surprise me at allbecause I've been immersed in
(25:06):
this world.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat doesn't surprise that
nonverbal autistic children aretelepathically commuting with
their caregivers.
I mean, it makes perfect senseto me.
And I, I just wonder about otherpeople that are nonverbal as
well.
Dr.
Temple Grandin started talkingabout autistic people thinking
(25:29):
more in pictures than normalpeople and herd animals thinking
in pictures.
I don't know that she ever madethe jump.
I have not read all of herbooks.
There's a telepathictransference of this, but that
was certainly my experience bothwith the cattle and I've got a
podcast about the cattle and howmuch do they really understand
because that was where I startedrealizing that, that these
(25:53):
animals were understanding me ata level that was just
incredible.
Even before the horses.
So, you know, is it because I'mspecial?
Because I have some clairvoyantpowers?
I mean, maybe.
I don't think they're superstrong.
I think they've beenstrengthened by various
(26:13):
practices and things that I'vedone in my life.
But I firmly believe thatautistic, allistic, whatever
your brain function is, that weall have this ability.
It's simply a matter ofbelieving and practicing and
slowing down enough to Developwhat is naturally there.
(26:36):
When we start talking aboutGestalt and Jungian type
therapies, we're already askedto understand and believe in our
subconscious or our unconsciousmind and what goes on there.
You know, and aren't thesereally part of the same thing?
(26:56):
I mean this.
Our brains are just so complexand fascinating, both with
instinct and intuition andgenerational storage and
cellular memory.
You know, I mean, you can make acase of antidotal science for
all of these things that helpsmake it believable.
(27:17):
Will there ever be hard, hardline science?
I don't know.
I, I, I really don't know, butthat doesn't mean you can't
believe in it.
That doesn't mean it isn'tuseful.
And even if you don't completelybelieve in it, there are still
ways to utilize the horse humanconnection in working with
clients or in working withexperiential learning and
(27:37):
people.
When I came back from equinicityin British Columbia with Liz
Ryan.
My horses began to actdifferently and I began to treat
them differently.
And I wanted to do these 20 casestudies that she had, she was
going to give some sort of acertification if you did the
case studies and then broughtthem back and had a second
(27:58):
visit.
Well, I never got around togoing back for the second visit,
but I definitely completed allof the case studies and some
really and I documented them andsome really amazing things
happened.
And some stories that are.
You know, some of them are toldin my previous podcasts here and
there.
One that really, really standsout.
(28:19):
That I don't know that I havetalked about that much was a
young man, well he wasn't thatyoung, he was in his early 30's,
came and he was very conflicted,it was during the time of the
pipeline incident with theLakota and North Dakota and the
military was out there trying toput a stop to this protest so
(28:42):
the pipeline could be built.
And this man, who came to myranch to do a case study, was
military, he was ex military.
And he was also of Nativeheritage.
He was very sad about all thethings that were happening.
And he sat down with my horse,and this was a, an Appaloosa.
(29:06):
Foundation bred AppaloosaMustang.
And if you don't know horses,Appaloosas are derived from a
breed that was helped along bythe Nez Perce, who were an
Indian tribe, and they were warponies.
So the genetic makeup of thishorse was really in line with
(29:32):
With this young man, and a lotof people don't realize that
horses cry.
They, they shed tears and theycry from sadness.
And they don't do it very often,but my horses did it several
occasions during these casestudies.
And this horse sat with this manfor over an hour.
(29:53):
With his head bowed in front ofhim, the man is on a chair.
In the pasture.
And they cried.
And I wasn't privileged toeverything that happened, but it
was over an hour.
And they cried, and the horsedid some licking and chewing,
and they meditated, and thehorse was moving energy off of
him.
And he got up out of that chairand said, I have to go.
(30:18):
I'm going home to get my pack,and I'm driving there.
And he did.
He left my ranch, he picked uphis clothes, same day, headed on
the road to go and be with thesepeople.
And he contacted me after he washome, well he contacted me from
being there and then also whenhe got home with the portion of
(30:41):
the questionnaire about, youknow, what happened to you
during this.
He sent me pictures, too.
And he had these amazingexperiences while he was there.
His military background reallyhelped the Native protesters
understand what these people'snext moves were.
He saved people's lives as theywere spraying water on the
(31:03):
Natives, and if, if the men thathad any facial hair.
it were protesting there, oreven just having cold water that
would instantly freeze on yourface because it was that cold.
People would have suffocated hadhe not been able to use
techniques he knew to quicklydefrost their faces and, and he
(31:24):
was a lot of help.
So one of the pictures he sentme was all of these military
people standing up on this hillwith their binoculars and their
rifles overlooking the campwhere the protesters were.
Another experience he told meabout was he went for a walk to
just kind of decompress byhimself.
(31:44):
And as he was walking down thisroad, this long straight road,
that had a rather high, like a30 foot berm on the side of it,
he heard this noise, and thisrumbling, and this herd of wild
horses.
Came up this berm in to hisside, but right there and the
(32:07):
stallion was in the middle.
And he sent me this picture ofthis majestic stallion and this
berm just lined with horses oneither side of him.
And he said he just had, hadgoosebumps and was just overcome
with all of this emotion.
Feeling like, you know, thesehorses were supporting them.
(32:28):
As well.
And he said he was flashingimages of the horse that that I
kept while this was happening.
It's a wild story.
It's his story.
I got to witness the part of itthat happened at my ranch.
But it's all part of the biggerstory of our history with horses
and how they are here to help.
(32:49):
And how You know, crossing thisdivide, being brave enough,
being open minded enough to seewhat's really out there.
It benefits everybody.
It just benefits everybody.
And I hope, you know, my hopesare that at some point we start
realizing the real value of thehorse, that we start realizing
(33:13):
what.
The horses in the wild who arecold.
They're still cold.
Like a lot of them are killedoff because there's not enough
food because their leases aretheir government leases for
these animals to be wild andpreserved that are such a part
of our heritage, such a part ofour country.
Such meaningful help for us andthe human species are competing
(33:38):
with cattle leases.
I'm not saying that cattlearen't important, too.
But the politics that getinvolved are messy and unfair
and there's just, there's a lotof work to do.
Thanks for listening.
I love to hear questions andcomments.
And if you think you would liketo be interviewed on my show, I
(34:02):
would love to hear from you.
If you haven't subscribed,please subscribe.
There is a YouTube channel.
It is Irene Abel Horse HumanConnection on YouTube.
There is the podcast, The HorseHuman Connection Matrix,
available lots of places.
And there's also a button todonate if you feel so moved.
Although, I would much ratherhave you tell three friends than
(34:25):
I would have you donate.
Again, thanks for listening.
Hi, this is Ishii Abel, the Horse
Human Connection Matrix podcast.
Today, I want to talk a littlebit about what's available for
equine therapists.
I'm going to give a talk to someinterns.
And it occurred to me that thismight just be a great subject
for a podcast as well.
(00:21):
So, I want to talk a little bitabout the history of horses.
What my purpose is, the thingsI've noticed, the science, the
myth, and the magic.
I want to list some of thepeople that are highly, highly
influenced this industry andthat have also influenced my
opinions and the work that I do.
(00:42):
I want to talk about a fewcertification programs and what
those things are and kind ofbring things back to therapy and
throw in a little bit of stuffabout autism as well.
So here we go.
An awful lot of horse.
(01:03):
And this has got to bring imagesup to all of us through our
modern media, whether that's theWells Fargo wagon, or Westerns,
or movies that we've seen abouthorses carrying men into
battles, or pulling chariotsfrom the earliest times pulling
plows, Of course, man, woman,and horse have had this
(01:28):
relationship for many, many,many, many, many years.
And how did it start?
There's a fanciful chapter in abook called Clan of the Cave
Bear, which, going way back now,deals with a time on the Earth
when there were Neanderthals andCro Magnon Man.
(01:50):
And in this novel, that is verywell done, documented and
substantiated in many of thethings that it talks about
between herbalism andflintknapping and, and a lot of
the science.
Anyway there's a chapter wherethis woman gets on a horse.
And you can imagine that thiscould very well be that the very
first time a human decided toget on a horse.
(02:14):
And, I love what that capturedin me when I read it because
it's almost as if the horse isinviting her.
And I imagine that's the way itwas now that I know these
creatures so well.
Being able to train a horse togo into battle the way the
Romans did, the way It's beendone throughout history the way
(02:36):
George Washington did.
George Washington was anexceptional horseman and I have
a feeling that that's why herelated so well to his troops
and his soldiers as well.
The trust that you have to haveto take a prey animal into a
situation where you're gonna Cutpeople and make blood and kill
(02:57):
people on its back.
That kind of trust, that kind ofpartnership is, is, is just
like, it blows my mind thatwe've been doing this for so
long and that those things wouldgo against a horse's nature in
so many respects.
So that being said, it's not ahuge jump for me that horses
(03:19):
have wanted to be our partners.
Why else would they?
Why else would this relationshiphave lasted so long?
So, when I began to learn abouthorses, which was when I was a
child, and then much later, as aperson in her 40s, I've There
(03:41):
was a lot to learn, a lot tolearn about being a leader, a
lot to learn about dominance andbossing horses around and
imitating herd behavior, or atleast specific parts of herd
behavior.
The parts where the lead mareand a stallion boss everybody
else around, but that's not allthey do.
And, and that's important tolook at the other ways that
(04:02):
herds interact, the members of ahorse herd interact with each
other.
So, As I began to study more andmore, something didn't sit right
with me.
And when I started to walk downthe road of Equine Assisted
Learning and went to get somehorse therapy for myself, I
(04:25):
realized some things.
I realized that horses are goingto show up really, really
differently when we're notasking them.
to do all this stuff for us whenwe're not treating them like
slaves, which is essentially theway that traditional
horsemanships have treatedhorses.
(04:46):
We capture them, we keep them,we feed them, we ask them to
work for us, we reward them, andwe punish them, and they are not
free.
That's pretty much what a slaveis.
When we ask them even if they'redomesticated horses to work with
us in an emotional way, and theystill may be slaves, but they
(05:13):
seem to be offered more choicesand just being recognized for
having these differentattributes and abilities.
Rather than just carrying peoplearound, bringing them into war,
pulling plows, and beingtransportation.
Asking them to participate on anintellectual and emotional level
(05:35):
elevates them.
It elevates the relationship.
And they show up differently.
And we begin to see them for whothey really are.
They are Amazing creatures whoare way, way smarter than most
people give them credit for.
I used to like to say this, andnow I realize that this is even
(05:57):
insulting.
That the average horse has anintelligence of a three or four
year old child.
Well, that may apply to theamount of language skills they
have.
But they have even more thanthat.
Like my older mare who's 30years old, a very smart horse to
begin with, a very old horsewho's been working with humans
(06:19):
and around humans for a verylong time, is way more than a
four year old child.
In fact sometimes she feels likemy mother.
Yes.
When we recognize what they'recapable of and Ask them to help
and treat them well.
(06:42):
All kinds of, all kinds ofwonderful things happen.
So, before I come back and talkabout some of the neuropathways,
the neuroscience, and the magic,I want to list some of the
people and talk briefly aboutthem.
So Linda Kohanov.
(07:05):
I hope I'm pronouncing thatright.
The Tao of Equus.
She's written a couple of otherbooks.
I consider her the grandmotherof equine therapy.
This woman had a horse who waslame and she couldn't ride it so
she began to walk with it inthese auroras of Arizona and
then she wrote a book about herexperiences and this horse began
(07:29):
to communicate with her and shebegan to have a very very deep
connection with this black marewho Who really began everything
that we do today, I believe.
Cherise Rudolph is a woman whowrote a book called The Art of
Facilitation with 28 EquineAssisted Activities.
(07:51):
I got to study with this womanbefore she retired from horses.
She is currently an artist.
And this was about experientiallearning.
Now Cherise started off withWorking with kids in outward
bound programs and then movedinto ropes courses and
eventually into equine therapyand ended up specializing in
(08:14):
veterans in the military andthen specifically women with
PTSD in the military.
And this book that she wrotewith all these beautiful equine
assisted activities to do whichpromote, experiential learning
is just phenomenal.
And I've, I've worked out of thebook with several different
(08:35):
groups.
I trained with her and theprocessing that takes place
afterwards is so unexpected.
I mean, these exercises we'regoing to bring things up for
people that you can't evenImagine that they're going to
bring up, and that's, that's thereal beauty of it.
It's not just the exercises,it's also how the horses show
(08:56):
up.
A very important book isHorsebrain Human Brain by Janet
Jones, Ph.
D.
That is like an essential thesedays.
Liz Mitton Ryan has done anincredible amount of work up in
Kamloops, British Columbia, andI was able to study with her as
well.
And just through meditation,With horses and channeling and
(09:21):
interacting with her herd.
The horses up there are arephenomenal also and a lot of
that work is done with heartmath.
A lot of what Sharice Rudolphdoes is also utilizes heart
math.
And if you're not familiar withheart math, that is definitely
something to look up.
It is advertised as a quickcoherence method, a way of
(09:45):
bringing our physiology backinto a, a more regulated state.
And that feeds into how weinteract with horses and the
loops that can be created, too.
The movie Rescued Hearts, whichhas not yet been released, but
should be this summer, is goingto be a very important
(10:08):
documentary documenting all theway that horses and humans and
how lives are changed by thoseconnections.
Most people are familiar withthe Netflix series Heartland,
the type of work and reflectionand mirroring done in this TV
sitcom.
It's a very well madeentertainment, as I see it.
(10:33):
But it also, it also tellswhat's possible with horses.
And The star of the show, whosename escapes me at the moment,
is instrumental in the moviethat I just mentioned, Rescued
Hearts.
She's in the movie, sheadvocates for the movie, and
it's gonna, it's gonna be great.
So, all of these people, all ofthese resources are available.
(11:01):
To learn more and to study fromand in my mind, I mean there are
others out there too, but in mymind these are what I have
found, what I have read, what Ihave followed, and what have
heavily influenced how I got tothis place.
For people to become certifiedin, in a modality, that
(11:26):
corresponds with their licensingas a counselor or a therapist or
for a lay person horse person tohave a certification that then
they can work with a therapist.
There are a lot of differentprograms and unfortunately
there's not a standardization.
(11:47):
There's not even a standardizedinitials that stand for this
work.
I use EPA for equine assistedpractices because it's broad in
general and can covereverything.
There's somebody else thatgrabbed those initials and used
them for their own program.
There are other broader initialsthat are out there.
And so that can be a littleconfusing.
(12:08):
So I think it's worth mentioningthat there's not a standardized
abbreviation for this type ofwork.
And maybe there shouldn't bebecause It varies so much as we
get a little deeper into it,you'll see how much it varies.
So PATH, ProfessionalAssociation of Therapeutic
Horsemanship.
(12:31):
They will certify people to bevery safe working with horses,
with children, with handicappedpeople, mentally and physically
with autistic people.
And I've read about theirprograms.
I've looked into doing it myselfand.
Decided not to.
When we're talking about thescience and the magic, this
(12:54):
program's been around for areally long time, and it does
good getting people with horses,but I don't think it scratches
the surface of what's possible.
EGALA is another very oldprogram, Equine Assisted Growth
and Learning Association.
So this is a program that beganwith some metaphors and with
(13:18):
horses.
Working with youth in detentionfacilities.
And they've done a lot of goodwork.
Again, they are, they've been inthere for a very long time.
And I'm not sure they've grownwith all of the knowledge that's
now available.
But, the history of equinetherapy is worth looking into.
(13:41):
In any way that it interestsyou.
As far as I'm concerned, anytime you get horses and people
together, well not any time, butalmost any time that you get
horses and people together withthe intention and atmosphere for
doing emotional work, somethinggood is going to come out of it,
(14:06):
as long as nobody is gettinghurt.
Equine Experiential EducationAssociation is called E& A.
Equisoma is Horse Human TraumaRecovery.
Rupert Isaacson, who we'll talka little bit about, and who I
have an interview on my podcastwith, is also an author, the
(14:31):
author of Horse Boy, the movieHorse Boy, the method Horse Boy.
So, This will segue into some ofthe science.
I'm just going to mention DeweyFreeman as well with attachment
and mirroring effect and there'slinks in the email that I sent
about, about these things.
(14:51):
I would definitely have a lookinto them.
So let's talk about Rupert for alittle bit.
Rupert had been a horse trainerand he was a journalist and he
had a six year old nonverbalincontinent.
autistic son that they hadstruggled with for six years.
(15:11):
And I think when the child wasabout four, he wandered next
door and Rupert found him in astall with a horse.
And did not panic because he hadtrained horses and he could see
that, you know, there wasn't animmediate danger.
But he did end up going andtalking to the man that owned
the horse, who didn't ride thehorse anymore, and got
(15:33):
permission to start taking hisson on rides.
Well, the child loved this.
And Rupert noticed that while onthe horse, his son was calmer,
was regulated better and seemedto be more aware of his
surroundings.
(15:54):
Later, Rupert had an opportunityas a journalist to go on a six
week horseback riding journeywith shaman through Mongolia.
And this just, this is one ofthose things that just fell into
place, you know,serendipitously.
And so he brought his wife andthe child.
And over the six weeks,Traveling through Mongolia on
(16:19):
horseback, the autistic boy hasbreakthroughs that are
incredible.
So when he gets home, Rupertfinds a neuroscience and said,
even though he was with shaman,even though he understands
shaman and has a very strongbelief system in this, he wanted
to know if and what the sciencewas.
(16:42):
And what they came up with wasmovement of the hips releases
the neurochemical oxytocin whichis a feel good chemical that
helps us regulate and helps uslearn and connect.
I still think there's more to itthan that, but I'm sure that
(17:05):
that's true also.
Dewey Freeman has a slightlydifferent opinion about what
happens with the hips of a horseand connecting with humans.
I'll let you watch the, theYouTube to find out more about
that because it too isinteresting.
I want to highly, highlyrecommend as a resource, not
(17:27):
just because I'm the one doingthe interview, but because the
most knowledgeable person I knowabout horses and horse therapy
is a woman that taught me a lotof this.
And her name is is CarissaSchmidt.
And the interview that I havenot released yet, but should be
(17:48):
released hopefully next week iswith her, and her commenting
about all of this.
And she can comment about itfrom a clinical standpoint, and
from an expert horsemanshipstandpoint, which you don't want
to miss.
So there's more ground to coverhere.
Let's let's go back a little bitto more of the neuroscience.
(18:12):
Horses don't see the same way wedo.
They have eyes on the side oftheir head.
They're prey animals.
If you walk a horse through thebarn, And a hose is always ruled
up a particular way.
And most barn aisles, commercialbarns are going to have hoses to
fill the water buckets that arein the stalls.
That horse sees that hosedifferently every single time
(18:35):
that it's been moved.
It has to process, is itdangerous?
What changed in my environment?
And of course, older horses thathave been there for a really
long time are going to becomesomewhat desensitized to it.
But when we're out on a trail,or even in an arena, With the
sun coming in at a differentangle, or through a different
window, or a different time ofday, or something shiny on the
(18:59):
floor, or a jacket hanging overa stall door, all of these
things have changed in thehorse's environment and register
in their brains as possibledanger.
So when a horse feels danger, itwill become dysregulated.
Because they can become soeasily dysregulated, and do
(19:22):
frequently, even indomestication, even in
environments where they're usedto things, they have to get
really good at becomingregulated again.
So just like people becomeemotionally dysregulated, the
horses are going to feed off ofpeople, just like they'll feed
(19:42):
off of the other animals in aherd.
So in a herd of horses, in awild herd of horses, they have a
connection with theirelectromagnetic field in their
heart.
They are hypervigilant, they'reprey animals.
The lead mare is responsible forknowing the environment the
(20:08):
best.
For knowing every individual thebest.
So that if A horse grazing onthe outside of the herd is the
first to hear something in thebushes that might be a predator.
It will become dysregulated.
It will, its ears will move, itsheart rate will change, and that
lead mare will know that.
(20:30):
And then that lead mare willdecide it's time to run or Maybe
just one or two horses willinvestigate a little bit and
then it might be time to run.
Whatever the decision is, she'smaking that decision.
But she's making it quicklybecause she's so in touch with
(20:51):
the herd.
And every member of that herd isconnected.
Can you see how this behaviorcan translate to working with
humans and giving them a senseof belonging?
So even just sitting in a roundpen with a horse is going to
bring up feelings of in beingincluded and belonging that
(21:16):
humans aren't used to havingthat we rarely get from being
around other humans.
Just just one thing that and theability to regulate fairly
quickly, so they go up and comedown.
So the saying, and maybe you'veheard this, meet the person
(21:39):
where they are.
This is actually a horsetraining thing that's been
morphed into the therapy world.
Because in training a horse, youmeet them where they are.
And this is old school.
Before we got better at tellingabout the subtleties in training
(22:03):
a horse, where they are mostreceptive to learning, one of
the methods was, if the horse isreally up, get really up there
with the horse.
Make them, if they're afraid ofsomething, make them afraid of
you, and then bring them downtogether.
You can see how that translatesfrom the herd behavior.
Now, hopefully, most trainersknow a little bit more about
(22:24):
nuance, you know, and all ofthat isn't necessary, but a
version of it, a much milderversion of it, is still
effective.
Samson Q2U Microphone & Face (22:34):
As we've been talking about horses
and herd behavior and humantherapy and all that's
available, I think I'm beginningto make a picture where you can
understand how valuable horsesare in equine assisted learning
and in equine therapy and howthey mirror us.
(22:58):
I don't know if I talked verymuch about the mirroring effect,
but humans have mirror neuronsand horses, horses have
something.
I don't know what it is, butpart of the way they always show
up is about that mirroring andhow they show us what we need to
know.
It just, it happens all of thetime.
(23:21):
So, as I was talking with thesetherapy interns, it's, it's a
fine line to walk I think whenyou begin to bring animals into
therapy because we are temptedto do that thing, or to give
them more credit than is due, orto interpret things that seem
quite magical in different ways.
(23:42):
And it's hard not to get labeledas woo woo or way out there.
But when you start to come intothis world and you see what's
possible, and you see how theyhelp.
I would just say stay away fromit unless you have an open
enough mind and you're willingto walk that line and balance
(24:03):
it.
Because I think stillmaintaining your credibility
with colleagues may becomedifficult.
At some point people maybe don'tcare.
I don't care.
But I know people that work inthis field that are constantly
(24:25):
trying to navigate that, andit's not always easy.
I think some of the newerresearch, even though it may not
qualify in our quote unquotescientific world, but the
telepathy tapes.
The idea that is beingdocumented that autistic
children all over the world, Dr.
(24:46):
Hennessy Powell down in Medfordand some, some woman has made a
group of podcasts and gone to alot of trouble to scientifically
document how these occurrencesare happening and, and what is
going on.
But.
It doesn't surprise me at allbecause I've been immersed in
(25:06):
this world.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat doesn't surprise that
nonverbal autistic children aretelepathically commuting with
their caregivers.
I mean, it makes perfect senseto me.
And I, I just wonder about otherpeople that are nonverbal as
well.
Dr.
Temple Grandin started talkingabout autistic people thinking
(25:29):
more in pictures than normalpeople and herd animals thinking
in pictures.
I don't know that she ever madethe jump.
I have not read all of herbooks.
There's a telepathictransference of this, but that
was certainly my experience bothwith the cattle and I've got a
podcast about the cattle and howmuch do they really understand
because that was where I startedrealizing that, that these
(25:53):
animals were understanding me ata level that was just
incredible.
Even before the horses.
So, you know, is it because I'mspecial?
Because I have some clairvoyantpowers?
I mean, maybe.
I don't think they're superstrong.
I think they've beenstrengthened by various
(26:13):
practices and things that I'vedone in my life.
But I firmly believe thatautistic, allistic, whatever
your brain function is, that weall have this ability.
It's simply a matter ofbelieving and practicing and
slowing down enough to Developwhat is naturally there.
(26:36):
When we start talking aboutGestalt and Jungian type
therapies, we're already askedto understand and believe in our
subconscious or our unconsciousmind and what goes on there.
You know, and aren't thesereally part of the same thing?
(26:56):
I mean this.
Our brains are just so complexand fascinating, both with
instinct and intuition andgenerational storage and
cellular memory.
You know, I mean, you can make acase of antidotal science for
all of these things that helpsmake it believable.
(27:17):
Will there ever be hard, hardline science?
I don't know.
I, I, I really don't know, butthat doesn't mean you can't
believe in it.
That doesn't mean it isn'tuseful.
And even if you don't completelybelieve in it, there are still
ways to utilize the horse humanconnection in working with
clients or in working withexperiential learning and
(27:37):
people.
When I came back from equinicityin British Columbia with Liz
Ryan.
My horses began to actdifferently and I began to treat
them differently.
And I wanted to do these 20 casestudies that she had, she was
going to give some sort of acertification if you did the
case studies and then broughtthem back and had a second
(27:58):
visit.
Well, I never got around togoing back for the second visit,
but I definitely completed allof the case studies and some
really and I documented them andsome really amazing things
happened.
And some stories that are.
You know, some of them are toldin my previous podcasts here and
there.
One that really, really standsout.
(28:19):
That I don't know that I havetalked about that much was a
young man, well he wasn't thatyoung, he was in his early 30's,
came and he was very conflicted,it was during the time of the
pipeline incident with theLakota and North Dakota and the
military was out there trying toput a stop to this protest so
(28:42):
the pipeline could be built.
And this man, who came to myranch to do a case study, was
military, he was ex military.
And he was also of Nativeheritage.
He was very sad about all thethings that were happening.
And he sat down with my horse,and this was a, an Appaloosa.
(29:06):
Foundation bred AppaloosaMustang.
And if you don't know horses,Appaloosas are derived from a
breed that was helped along bythe Nez Perce, who were an
Indian tribe, and they were warponies.
So the genetic makeup of thishorse was really in line with
(29:32):
With this young man, and a lotof people don't realize that
horses cry.
They, they shed tears and theycry from sadness.
And they don't do it very often,but my horses did it several
occasions during these casestudies.
And this horse sat with this manfor over an hour.
(29:53):
With his head bowed in front ofhim, the man is on a chair.
In the pasture.
And they cried.
And I wasn't privileged toeverything that happened, but it
was over an hour.
And they cried, and the horsedid some licking and chewing,
and they meditated, and thehorse was moving energy off of
him.
And he got up out of that chairand said, I have to go.
(30:18):
I'm going home to get my pack,and I'm driving there.
And he did.
He left my ranch, he picked uphis clothes, same day, headed on
the road to go and be with thesepeople.
And he contacted me after he washome, well he contacted me from
being there and then also whenhe got home with the portion of
(30:41):
the questionnaire about, youknow, what happened to you
during this.
He sent me pictures, too.
And he had these amazingexperiences while he was there.
His military background reallyhelped the Native protesters
understand what these people'snext moves were.
He saved people's lives as theywere spraying water on the
(31:03):
Natives, and if, if the men thathad any facial hair.
it were protesting there, oreven just having cold water that
would instantly freeze on yourface because it was that cold.
People would have suffocated hadhe not been able to use
techniques he knew to quicklydefrost their faces and, and he
(31:24):
was a lot of help.
So one of the pictures he sentme was all of these military
people standing up on this hillwith their binoculars and their
rifles overlooking the campwhere the protesters were.
Another experience he told meabout was he went for a walk to
just kind of decompress byhimself.
(31:44):
And as he was walking down thisroad, this long straight road,
that had a rather high, like a30 foot berm on the side of it,
he heard this noise, and thisrumbling, and this herd of wild
horses.
Came up this berm in to hisside, but right there and the
(32:07):
stallion was in the middle.
And he sent me this picture ofthis majestic stallion and this
berm just lined with horses oneither side of him.
And he said he just had, hadgoosebumps and was just overcome
with all of this emotion.
Feeling like, you know, thesehorses were supporting them.
(32:28):
As well.
And he said he was flashingimages of the horse that that I
kept while this was happening.
It's a wild story.
It's his story.
I got to witness the part of itthat happened at my ranch.
But it's all part of the biggerstory of our history with horses
and how they are here to help.
(32:49):
And how You know, crossing thisdivide, being brave enough,
being open minded enough to seewhat's really out there.
It benefits everybody.
It just benefits everybody.
And I hope, you know, my hopesare that at some point we start
realizing the real value of thehorse, that we start realizing
(33:13):
what.
The horses in the wild who arecold.
They're still cold.
Like a lot of them are killedoff because there's not enough
food because their leases aretheir government leases for
these animals to be wild andpreserved that are such a part
of our heritage, such a part ofour country.
Such meaningful help for us andthe human species are competing
(33:38):
with cattle leases.
I'm not saying that cattlearen't important, too.
But the politics that getinvolved are messy and unfair
and there's just, there's a lotof work to do.
Thanks for listening.
I love to hear questions andcomments.
And if you think you would liketo be interviewed on my show, I
(34:02):
would love to hear from you.
If you haven't subscribed,please subscribe.
There is a YouTube channel.
It is Irene Abel Horse HumanConnection on YouTube.
There is the podcast, The HorseHuman Connection Matrix,
available lots of places.
And there's also a button todonate if you feel so moved.
Although, I would much ratherhave you tell three friends than
(34:25):
I would have you donate.
Again, thanks for listening.
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