December 24, 2024 • 54 mins
During our interview we had some wifi issues. The editing in the first part of the interview, may be a rough in transition. In the socond half, I decided to leave the gaps. Life isnt perfect, embrace the imperfections.
This work is so fasinating to me be cause I've glismpsed it in day dreams and seen it in my minds eye before I heard anyone was doing it. "The Quiet Revolution " continues to grow. Are you part of it? Would you like to be a guest?
Email me-
Iabel.hhc@gmail.ocm
JoAnna Mendl Shaw
The Equus Projects
www.equus-onsite.org
BOOK:
Physical Listening, A Dancer’s Interspecies Journey
https://www.equus-onsite.org/getphysicallistening
FILM:
Imprinted, Dancing with Foals
https://www.imprintedthefilm.com/
Physical Listening NYC LABS:
For all curious movers
https://www.equus-onsite.org/physicallisteninglab
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Ishi Abel with the HorseHuman Connection Matrix.
(00:03):
I am without a theme song for alittle bit longer so my intro
will sound a little different.
Today I have with me JoanneMandelshaw, who is doing some
amazing work with Dancing withHorses and teaching physical
listening among some otherthings we may talk about today.
(00:23):
Welcome, Joanne.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Tell me about the Equus Project.
So the Equus Project is a dancecompany.
I formally formed the 501c3 in2004, but began the research for
(00:43):
the work in 1997 it is a companyof professional dancers, all of
whom have put serious time intotheir horsemanship ground skills
training.
We don't ride, we do work withriders, and a lot of our
projects have been done withpretty amazing riders.
(01:05):
Everything from the 9 to 14 yearolds at the barn that we train
at, to very advanced dressageriders.
in the Northeast.
We've done projects in 16 statesthroughout the country.
We've worked in Sweden.
I've taught some of thismaterial in Scotland in
(01:27):
Switzerland and always hungryfor new opportunities.
That sounds just amazing.
So I didn't realize that you'dbeen kind of formulating this
for such a long time.
What inspired you?
Well I moved back to New York in1991.
(01:47):
And I had attended Mount HolyokeCollege, which is a women's
college in Massachusetts.
That had, when I went there, andstill has a very active
equestrian program, a big,beautiful barn competing
students.
You can bring your horse andhave it there with you.
And when I moved back to NewYork, friends of mine were
(02:10):
chairing the dance departmentand they invited me to come and
do a big site specificperformance piece for the 20th
anniversary of the five collegedance program, which is Amherst.
Umass, Smith, Mount Holyoke, andHampshire.
Thought it would be inter theywere very adventurous
choreographers themselves, whohad done lots of site specific
(02:36):
work, and I wanted to dosomething on the campus, and so
I asked them if I could puttogether a piece with horses and
dancers.
And we went up to the barn,excuse me, and we asked C.
J.
Law, who ran the equestrianprogram there, and she said,
(02:59):
sure, why not?
And we remain in contact to thisday, and she's been sort of
delighted with what we've done.
I've done with this work.
The first pieces I did, I did, Iended up doing three pieces at
Mount Holyoke.
One was with the dressage team,so it was eight riders and eight
(03:21):
dancers, and we did the centralgreen at Mount Holyoke and The
big warning curve.
And then we did a big piece onthe Mandel Hillside for 50
movers all in white and onedancer with a white horse, a
ridden white horse.
So it was really more of an artinstallation.
(03:42):
And we did a piece for theindoor arena.
That we call body on body.
And that was the piece that Ilearned the most doing.
I worked with five dancers andthree riders who actually had
their horses at Mount Holyoke.
I have to tell you, I'm not ahorse person.
I didn't ride as a kid.
(04:03):
I knew nothing.
And it was just sheer curiosity.
I had been a slalom skier.
I love moving through space.
I was an athlete.
And what I discovered was thatthe dancers understood something
about how to embody an energeticstate and they would work on the
(04:26):
inside shoulder of the riddenhorse and the riders would say,
what are you guys doing?
Cause my horse has got his earon you and you're leading.
And I thought, I think dancershave a kind of physical
intelligence that isn't talkedabout in our training, but it's
(04:49):
a huge part of what we know whatwe learn from years of dance
training.
Right.
It's not.
emphasized.
I've taught in five differentconservatories.
Most of my faculty positionswere with wonderfully
accomplished dancers in Seattleand then in New York City.
(05:12):
I'm continuously fascinated andimpressed with the physical
intelligence that we as lifetimemovers have.
And yet that training is reallynot part of.
Any discourse in a dancer'straining think from my own
experience and learning, there'sa way.
(05:36):
One of the things I love aboutbeing in a dance class is being
with other beings.
That are moving through spacerhythmically together.
Like I just get such a kick outof that.
I get so much joy out of lookingin the mirror and seeing that I
am moving in unison with otherpeople to rhythm.
And I know that that's howhorses connect.
I've had a horse trainer whotaught me to focus on the rhythm
(05:59):
as a way of connectingenergetically with the horse.
So what you're saying makesperfect sense to me that dancers
inherently have that experiencethat every single day.
And so do horses.
So.
It seems like a very logicalconnection point.
I think to be honest, I thinkwhat I'm not positive that the
(06:20):
horses are connecting to therhythm and I'll talk more about
that.
I think what horses do isimmense amount of weight
sensing.
They sense energetic weight anddancers sense weight.
They sense it through theirtouch.
They sense it kinetically.
They sense it spatially.
And I think that's what horsesdo.
(06:41):
Okay.
They pick it up through the kindof flow and weight sensing in
your body and having taught alot of equestrians some of this
physical listening.
When you have someone who's justlearning ground skills and their
gesture in their posture are notintegrated.
(07:03):
They're not actually workingwith real.
weight because they might befearful or they're thinking very
hard.
The horse has a harder timereading them.
And I yeah, I don't think it'sabout the rhythm.
I think it's about the weight.
I'm saying this as someone who'syou know, I'm, I'm trained in
(07:24):
Laban movement analysis and it,it, And I've also worked with
very briefly with this brilliantneuroscientist, Ani Patel, who's
now at Tufts.
And he and David Litchman, who'sa wonderful natural horsemanship
trainer, and I David devisedthis experiment to see if the
horses were picking up on therhythm and the tempo of music.
(07:52):
And unfortunately, I think thatthe, the experiment was faulty.
Because he devised an experimentwhere he had music playing in
the arena, and then the riderhad different music in her
headphones, and the horse, Ithink that the controls there
are faulty.
Yeah, because the horse is goingto pick up on the riders body
(08:14):
language.
Horses pick up on all kinds ofthings.
And from my work with horses, Iknow if the work, if the
connection is deep, they'llfocus on what I'm focused on.
So if you're focused on weightand gravity, they'll also focus
on that.
(08:34):
So I don't think it's one or theother.
I think it's probably both andthat they default to your focus.
Yeah, in my mind, horses are thesuperior beings there.
They're smarter than we are in alot of ways, but that's just my
opinion.
Who did you say theneuroscientist was Annie Patel,
Annie Patel a and I, he was theseminal scientist.
(08:56):
He was looking at music in thebrain, was looking at snowball
this cockatoo.
And he's looking at the factthat Birds have language, and
the language acquisition isbased on how the brain processes
many different things, not theleast of it is weight sensing
and sound.
(09:17):
And I mean, he came away fromthe experiment, he wrote an
article afterwards, and he and Icommunicated, and we did not
think that there was conclusiveevidence.
The horse brain is actuallypicking up on the music itself,
but they are definitely pickingup on the weight that the human
is manifesting, and thegroundedness and yeah, weight
(09:41):
sensing which is sort ofintegral to what in this Laban
work is called a rhythm state,which is about weight and time.
What was the word you just said?
The log, the law bond movementanalysis.
Is L.
A.
B.
A.
N.
is a form of of movementanalysis.
(10:04):
It's it's it's quite westerncentric, but it has a way of
organizing how we look atmovement and detaching it from
our personal preferences.
And you're looking at the bodyand how the body, you know, this
is a rotator joint, and this isflexion and you're looking at
effort, which is.
(10:24):
divided into a spatial affinity,weight affinity, time affinity,
and flow.
And you're looking at space.
And he did a whole lot withwhat's called space harmony,
which is just fascinating, thearchitecture of space.
And then he looked at the notionof shaping, which is sort of
(10:44):
combining all those.
Elements together.
And I can talk about it a littlebit more.
I had never heard of it.
So I was really curious.
You study so many things.
Oh my gosh.
Well the love on movementanalysis came into my dance
life.
In my thirties one of my Cocompany members in the Bill
(11:06):
Evans Dance Company in Seattlewas one of the seminal
researchers in Laban.
And if you look it up, he wasQuite famous and developed a
very intricate system thatincluded what's called love on
notation, which now that we havesuch active video documentation
(11:28):
is not that necessary, but itwas written on a vertical staff
and it was.
A way of notating movement whichin itself, in my opinion, it has
some shortcomings because you'realways looking through your own
personal movement lens, right?
Right.
You know, so my affinity, I'mvery spatial.
I see space.
(11:48):
I send space.
That's what I'm going to seefirst.
You know, some people are moreaffine with weight.
Right.
Our lenses, our, ourexperiences, what we've studied,
who we are, all of that's goingto affect your perspective.
Let me ask you a little bit moreabout the Equus Project.
you started in 2004, had ideasof it several years before that,
(12:11):
and When was your first, so Iguess things I want to ask are
like, when was your firstperformance?
And you you've talked about itevolving a little bit.
And when I go to look, I can'tfind video except for the one.
If you look on Vimeo, there's alot on Vimeo.
(12:32):
So people can go and findperformances that are recorded
that you've done.
I wish I had done that.
I would have looked.
Oh, I'm sorry.
No, that's all right.
Have done Well over eight hugeperformance projects together.
And then I went to a dancer thatI had met in New York named Gina
Paililo.
(12:53):
And this was a dancer who wasalso a terrific athlete and
loved the notion of Beingvulnerable in performance, which
I think is something abouthorses, you have to be willing
to not know what comes next.
If you really want to dance withthem.
I mean, if you want to dominatethem, that's another thing.
(13:17):
Right.
So our first performances werein 1998.
And I did several of them andI'm appalled at how little I
knew, but I just wanted to jumpin.
And then in 2004, we got our501c3 nonprofit status.
And at that point, starting evenin 2002 3, we were invited by
(13:40):
the Flynn Performing Arts Centerin Burlington to do this huge
project in Burlington, Vermont.
And I had met a group of veryadvanced dressage writers up
there.
And we created a, an enormouspiece with 14 dancers and nine
horses and eight riders for theShelburne Museum using their
(14:05):
live carousel.
And we had children in thepiece.
Oh, wow.
Everything was seen through theeyes of our equestrian
director's nine year olddaughter and she stands in front
of this carousel and she bringsit to life and as it starts to
rotate the dancers appear ridingthese animals and she meets all
(14:25):
of them and they devise thisgestural language together and
then she introduces them each toa ridden horse and then it
progresses as much like thenutcracker, you know, they're
There are different events thatshow off different aspects of
how you can dance with a riddenhorse, a solo with a horse, and
a duet, and big groups.
(14:47):
And the first clinic I ever wentto was in Pensacola, Florida,
and it was A fourth leveladvanced natural horsemanship
clinic, and they're in this hugearena, all with their horses at
liberty.
And I went, this is amazing.
There was such a sense of thesehorses having so much fun.
(15:09):
And that began my journey firstwith David, and then he
introduced us to the Pirellis.
And.
We through the Pirellis met anamazing natural horsemanship
trainer named Karen Rolfe, whodoes dressage naturally, and
just got introduced into thehorse world through this Amazing
(15:34):
work that helped me as a nonhorse person to understand a lot
about how equines think.
And of course, then weeventually bumped into people
who have feelings about naturalhorsemanship and I began to
develop a point of view aboutwhat I really wanted to do with
(15:59):
horses.
Which was not dominate them andI realized that this is a very
privileged point of view becauseI don't own horses.
I don't have to feed them everyday.
I don't have to take them intoturnout.
I'm not responsible for myincome being tied to horses.
(16:19):
And I have the enormous luxuryof saying, I just want to
explore the voice of each ofthese animals, and I definitely
appreciate that that's a veryprivileged thing to say.
And yeah, so eventually.
We learned a lot of naturalhorsemanship, enough to learn
(16:45):
how much there was yet to learn.
Several lifetimes, I've heard,I've heard said many times.
You have this other project thatis physical listening did your
work with horses influence that,or is that just from dance, or
is that an accumulated?
What happened was we don't ownhorses.
We In the studio where there areno horses, where there are no
(17:05):
horses, so we're working witheach other, and I'll, I'll
explain what the catalyst wasfor this.
In 2004 we had a commission fromVirginia Commonwealth University
in Richmond, and it was thefirst time we were going to
choreograph a piece with theriderless horse.
We did it with a Bach Preludeand there were two round pens,
(17:27):
and in one was the owner of thisArabian Hamlet, and in the end,
Hamlet, and in the other was amale and female dancer.
And it was totally parallelchoreography.
Mm-hmm And we began working withthis trainer and, and her horse.
And every Monday we would drivetwo hours each way to begin
(17:51):
choreographing with Madri andHamlet, and we worked inside
this gigantic.
slightly heated arena.
It was freezing cold.
We would climb into our car tostay warm.
And our, David actually flewfrom Sacramento to train us.
Katja came from New York to takea look at what we were doing.
(18:14):
And it was beautiful.
I mean, it was just a beautifulpiece.
And about the fifth rehearsal,we put the music on.
And, and I should say at theclimax of this prelude, we had
Blake and Hamlet running threecircles.
And then, as you well know, ifyou put your eyes on a horse's
(18:38):
haunches, they'll turn towardsyou.
And then she just asked thehorse to gently back up and then
come towards her.
And then she released herenergy.
knowing full well that he woulddrop his head and exhale and
probably have a lovely moment.
So just for accuracy, thosehorses might be trained that way
(18:59):
or maybe east coast horses dothat, but all of my training and
reading and working with myhorse is eyes or belly button to
the rear drives them forward.
And it's a prey instinct.
So If you put the eyes at acertain point on their haunches,
it will drive them forward.
(19:19):
But if you put it on the hipbone, they will move away from
the pressure and because they'requadrupeds.
they'll actually very often faceyou.
And I, I have tried this withhorses that are not trained to
do this.
And so gaining a sense of howyou can help the horse move with
(19:41):
you is certainly part of naturalhorsemanship training, but they
actually do that with the in theherd.
I mean, I've seen horses putpressure on another horse's
haunches, and the horse willspin around.
At any rate, there's certainlylots of micro, there's certainly
lots and lots of micro movementsthat, that is, that is certain.
(20:01):
And there's certainly horseswill pick up on a person's micro
movements.
And if you don't do thingsexactly the same way, or, or
once you train them, that thismovement means that.
Then they'll be there every timewith it.
So yeah, it's very, it's a veryinteresting mix with so many
(20:21):
variables when you're beingpresent, and you're interacting
with them that way becausethere's the training, there's
the instinct, there's the herdlanguage, there's the
multicultural aspect of humanculture and horse culture coming
together.
It's, it's extremely intricateand fascinating.
(20:44):
I mean, moving through spacewith all of those variables, but
you, you were saying about beingin the studio together.
So I just wanted to finish thisstory.
So we put the music on andHamlet took one look at Madri
and ran three circles, facedher, took one step backwards and
(21:04):
then exhale.
And I thought, oh dear, whathave we done?
And I called David and he said,Joe, you're not rehearsing in
order, are you?
And I said, well, yeah, we'rerehearsing the piece.
And he said, the circus neverrehearses in order because the
horses will memorize thesequence and then skip to the
(21:24):
end to be done sooner.
And I thought, I have tocompletely retrain my dancers.
We have to learn how to learnthings completely differently.
We have to learn a different wayof functioning.
You can't be in memory time.
(21:45):
You have to be in real time.
And you cannot rehearse thingsover and over again.
Because the horse will getbored.
They'll learn things.
They learn faster than we do.
They respond to pattern.
And so the physical listeningwork evolved directly out of the
horsemanship.
(22:05):
And we began to develop a reallyexpansive practice that
continues to evolve in thestudio.
And then during COVID, I wrotethis.
Much too long book that has allof it in it, and they're about
(22:30):
in this book.
There are about 50 somaticexercises that are designed very
specifically to help peopleexpand a certain sensory
ability, for instance, workingin backspace.
You know, which I think is veryimportant with horses.
You need to know where they are.
You have them on a lead line.
(22:52):
If you're not paying attention,they'll just test you and drift
to the other side.
That awareness of alphanegotiation and how they are
negotiating to find out ifyou're a good leader are, is, is
a constant.
And can you constructchoreography that's sort of
(23:12):
based on that notion?
Can you create, we devised thisone Beautiful improvisation
called The Creature Duet.
And we would make a roundenclosure, like a round pen, and
then send one person in with aconstellation of behaviors that
was loosely based on maybe it'sthe horse they just worked on.
(23:33):
An introvert, but a curiousintrovert.
That spooks easily.
And then someone else goes intothe round pen as themselves.
And they really have to figureout by trial and error and
physical engagement, no talking,and a lot of observing how to
connect with that movingcreature.
(23:56):
And what we tried to get dancersto do is really own what we call
blink time, which is horsesprocess things differently than
humans.
And unless they're in fear mode,they're not going to respond
right away.
You can watch their brainprocessing and Dance is very
(24:17):
adverse to blink time, you know,five, six, seven, eight, and
then you're always moving.
And so to get dancers tounderstand.
You can be on stage and own thebeauty of blink time that you
can be on stage and it'll neverbe the same twice.
You have to pay attention allthe time.
(24:40):
I've always had the thought thatecstatic dance or pure improv
and getting good at pureimprovisational dance would make
every dancer on stage a betterdancer.
Because once you have thediscipline of all of the
movements and the language, youknow, of each Each move, each
(25:05):
sentence, but the fluidity, Imean, you can have fluidity in
choreography, but fluidity inwhat you were calling real time
that comes out of improvisation,puts you absolutely present.
And, and when you're talkingabout that that blink time or
pause time or being present sothat there's not this thought
(25:29):
process of what comes next orworking from the pattern that
you've done again and again andagain with repetition.
It's those moments that.
You know, as the, the meagerlittle dancer that, that, you
know, exposure to dance thatI've had in my life at a very
novice kind of level.
But I recognize that feeling inthat space as so similar to the
(25:53):
work I've done with horses inrelationship or horse ship.
That's a phrase that I'vecoined.
I don't want horsemanship.
I don't want horse woman ship.
I want.
I want a relationship with ahorse where either one of us can
lead where there's completetrust back and forth where the
dominance isn't necessary unlessit's for safety travel or
(26:16):
health, you know, in thosecases, I will institute A
benevolent leadership thatinsists on compliance.
But other than that, I don'twant to interact with my horses
like they're slaves.
I want, I want those preciousmoments of being purely present
and being welcomed into theirslower culture.
(26:36):
It's those it's those momentsand being able to, to, to.
help people get into that spacethat is really hard.
And the horses have taught me alot about that.
And I'm guessing that they'vetaught you a bit too.
And my suspicion is that thephysical listening comes from
(26:57):
being really present the micromovements, and being in the
space where You're turning offsome of the thinking.
Is that right?
Yeah.
I think that the, the thingabout ecstatic dance that I
think is different and, andyou've already addressed this is
(27:19):
when you're in a state ofecstatic dance, you're working
with that flow, but your focusis mostly on yourself.
And the thing about physicallistening is you're always in
relationship.
You're in relationship to the,to the space to an end and
mostly to another sentientbeing.
(27:40):
And to me you know, I, I've hadthis conversation with people
who do contact improvisation aswell as ecstatic dance.
And I think there's a lot ofemphasis on what my experience
is, but as you know being ahorse person, that, that the
(28:00):
state that you want to be in.
I think with this animal is in astate of communication and trust
and give and take.
And I do think thatimprovisation is a, is a really
important skill and it's you andI just mentioned, I think a
little bit, this course thatwe're a friend of a colleague of
(28:21):
mine is teaching at Stanford forphysicians.
And a big emphasis is on how doyou relate to another person?
How do you use physicallistening to be a better
communicator with your patient?
In addition to self care, theemphasis on the interactiveness
(28:42):
of it, the physical listeningpart.
It's not just listening toyourself.
That's of course important, butit's listening to that other
sentient being that seems soimportant and there's a, there's
to me an important level ofcompassion.
Unfortunately, this world isstruggling with these days.
(29:05):
And that's the part that feels.
Yeah, that feels different aboutthis work from the kind of
improvisation that someone doeswhen they're just working on
their own personal fluidity.
Yeah.
Again, with the lens, you know,everybody's experiences are so
(29:28):
different and I'm sure differentcontainers for improv and
ecstatic dance, you know, theones I visited differ quite a
bit.
as well.
So but I do hear what you'resaying about like sort of an
internal thing versus apartnership thing.
Yeah, I, I've had experienceswhere I'm in partnership with
(29:49):
different people duringdifferent parts of the dance and
there is that compassion andthat respect and that
exploration.
It's interesting.
So, It's your friend that'steaching the class on physical
listening, or is that you that'steaching the class?
We both, we both are.
She is a former dancer who endedup as a chemistry major at
(30:13):
Harvard and then went to NYUMedical School and is now at
Stanford as a resident inpediatrics.
And during the pandemic, webegan designing this course, and
I taught a couple workshops atNYU.
And then when she went toStanford, she asked me to come
out and teach last winter thiscourse.
(30:36):
And this year, I'm only going togo out once a month.
And I've worked with Nina andher assistant, who's also a
former dancer, and a pre medgrad of Stanford, and they'll be
teaching the course.
But what we discovered, and thisrelates to something that you
said earlier, is that four ofthe people, we had 12 people in
(31:01):
class last winter, four of themwere former dancers, and one of
them was a martial arts artistand a violinist.
They were all very familiar withimprov.
What we realized is the, theskills involved, the flow that
you're talking about, that senseof allowing your brain and body
(31:22):
to talk to each other is notsomething that many people
trust.
They have it, but they're notusing it as adults.
I think that our educationsystem in this country tends to
favor left brain learners, andit has a kind of 2
dimensionality to it, where the,the kind of playful porous
(31:47):
learning.
Is not something reinforced inyoung children, and in a way it
sort of gets taught out of us.
I listened to your interviewwith Sarah, and I think that for
for other able learners.
There is more of a fluidity, butit's not something that is
(32:09):
praised or recognized in the wayour schools are set up and the
way learning takes place.
And for five years we did aproject in far south Chicago and
worked with school for giftedkids.
And the principal was Sointerested in what we did with
physical listening, and wetaught 3rd through 5th grade for
(32:33):
2 weeks a year.
And then at the end of everyweek, we would take all the kids
to a horse farm and have themexperience how physical
listening manifests in anotherspecies.
That sounds fascinating.
Yeah.
Lucky, lucky kids.
Wow.
(32:54):
So much really wonderful stuffthat you have done and put
together and what anextraordinary life you've had as
a dancer and choreographer andteacher.
And there was another project Isaw on your website where in
another country, you worked withsome autistic children on a
dance project.
Do you want to tell me a littlebit about that?
(33:15):
So in 20, 2012, David Litchmanintroduced me to a Pirelli
Natural Horsemanship horseowner, but a theater director in
Sweden.
And her students were all on thespectrum, and she worked with
them for a long swath of theirlives, starting when they were
(33:39):
eight, seven and eight yearsold, all the way up through into
their twenties, and she createda theater company called Clinton
culture was in southern Sweden.
And she started creatingperformance works with them.
And her great goal was to hire achoreographer who actually
(34:03):
worked with horses.
And David had come to hercommunity and said, Well, I
actually know somebody that doesthis.
So I became connected to her,and she invited me to come to
southern Sweden to create aperformance piece, deep in a
forest.
(34:24):
At the site of this stone ruinwith horses and with her company
of young adults with autism.
So I brought four dancers and wecreated a full evening length
performance piece calledHastants Pahovdala and Hovdala,
it was the name of the castlethe family that owned this land.
(34:48):
It sounds magical.
It sounds absolutely magical.
And there's a documentary aboutit.
So you know, this, I went toSweden in April to meet her and
I thought this is going to makean amazing film.
And so I took a documentaryfilmmaker with me and we made a
full length documentary aboutthe creation of this work called
(35:09):
Hastan's Pahudala.
What do you want to do next?
I'm really interested inembodied intelligence.
And to that end I'm launchingthis think tank and, and I've
invited a collection of peopleto look at it.
A lot of them are dancers.
Some of them are, are horsepeople.
(35:30):
There's an acupuncturist who's ahorse trainer.
To I'm trying to gently nudge itout of our dance centric point
of view, because I think that Iwant to understand this for a
more sort of pan human.
So we're going to do once amonth, five hour sessions where
we go into a studio andbrainstorm the physical
(35:54):
listening process from each oftheir perspectives.
There's a dance educator atColumbia Teachers College.
There's of dance colleague ofmine who's also an equestrian
sort of a collection of peoplestarting more from the dance
centric point of view and thenhopefully doing it again.
With a more varied I'd love toput together one with scientists
(36:18):
who research physicalintelligence.
Yeah, I think that there's, Imean, I don't know if the goal
there is a therapeuticavailability of what gets
touched on in some of this workfor people, but I think that
that is really, really richalong with the dance is one of
the primitive culture activitiesthat enhances brain health.
(36:42):
It's kind of a little kick thatI've been on and something that
really fascinates me toresearch.
And it sounds akin to whatyou're talking about.
Yeah, absolutely.
So when you say you go out anddance with your horses, what do
you, what do you do with them?
I just wanted to try ityesterday.
I've been so inspired and Ididn't have any visuals, so I
(37:03):
didn't know.
And I thought, okay, well, whatdoes dancing with horses look
like to me?
You know, it's not the GrandPrix and it's not riding and
it's not, you know, it's notvaulting.
It's a way that I connect withthem.
So, I was combining what I'mlearning about Liberty work with
me dancing.
And of course my, my little coinbelt from belly dance, you know,
(37:25):
had my, my young Mustangsnorting at me.
And I use some of the, you know,horsemanship principles of like,
if I'm going to come over in thefield and take up this space,
you're going to move.
And I'm going to do that threetimes.
And then you're going to startfollowing me.
It's a version of join up.
So I guess, I'm just thinking asI'm talking, I guess I put music
on and did a mild version ofjoin up in the orchard with the
(37:51):
horses.
And I tried to film some of it.
It's just kind of funny.
And the, the goats were watchingand the dog was playing with me
dancing.
And it's just a sweet littletime out there, you know,
connecting to nature and my, mycritters.
That's cool.
How many horses do you have?
I have three and I have threegoats and I have two dogs.
(38:13):
So this has been reallywonderful.
Joanne, thank you for makingtime to visit.
Is there anything else you'dlike to talk about?
Hmm.
Well, I'm interested in, in, inhow we connect to these animals.
And at least in my horsemanshiptraining, working with rhythm,
(38:37):
depending on the personality ofthe horse can be effective or
can cause.
Stress for them.
Let, let me explain a littlebit.
I have this trainer that Iworked with for three years.
I was so fortunate to get towork with her and I wish she
would be full time with horses,but she's actually a human
(39:00):
therapist and, but she's knowsmore about horses than any three
horse people I have ever met andshe's very intuitive also.
So she taught me how to work myhorses.
in a round pen, using, beinggrounded, some of my body
language, my chakras, movingenergy up and down my chakras,
(39:24):
and focusing on their rhythm.
So as an example, I've got ahorse trotting, a young horse
trotting, who has not calmeddown a lot yet.
When he realized he could beheart to heart connected, like
heart math connected to me, at atrot, He was just so filled with
(39:46):
joy because he'd been so anxiousup until that point.
So then if I move my energy frommy chest down to my feet, and I
think in my brain, a walk rhythmrather than a trot rhythm, he'll
respond to that.
Nice.
So it's like the aids becomeinternal by moving energy in
(40:11):
myself.
The horse is paying attentionby.
And it.
There's also physical outsideaids because I'm not, you know,
100 percent practiced at it.
But it's possible to communicatewith horses with the front of
your head by putting an image inthe front of your head and
having them read it.
(40:31):
I mean, first you have to have arelationship.
You have to have trust.
They have to want to know whatyou're thinking.
And they have to be willing totalk to you.
I mean, horses have beenignored.
Most horses are ignored, youknow?
And like, I use this example allthe time.
If you kidnap somebody and theykeep asking questions and you
(40:52):
don't talk to them, they'regoing to quit asking questions.
Horses are like that.
Horse, everything a horse does,every move a horse makes around
a human, to me, is them asking aquestion.
Can I come out of the stall?
Am I done eating?
Are you, are you gonna keepworking me?
(41:12):
Is this what you mean?
You want me to stop here?
They're asking questions all thetime.
And so when you look at itthrough that lens, instead of
the dominant lens of, eventhough natural horsemanship is
gentle, it's completelymanipulative and it's completely
dominant.
There's no room for the horse tohave a choice, the natural
(41:36):
horsemanship that I know.
Now people may be using the termnatural horsemanship, you know,
to mean many different things.
Right.
Oops.
Sorry.
No, that's okay.
I don't know what you're saying.
Sorry for but does that answerthe question a little bit about
some of the rhythm?
(41:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know I know you take issuewith the work word natural
horsemanship, but there aremany, many different versions of
it.
And.
We, we, we have definitelyencountered trainers who say,
unless you understand how to bea good leader, you're never
(42:17):
going to have the conversation.
And, you know, that's a littleintimidating.
So, and.
So let me talk a little bit tothat because there's some
accuracy.
I use natural horsemanship.
I've read the Pirelli book.
I have used, you know, Pirellimoves to help with my horses,
but going deeper, I think a lotof times they are misinterpreted
(42:41):
and misused by people who don'tfully understand them.
And I think we need to admitthat it is manipulation and
yeah, there is a leadershipfactor, but the trust.
is more important.
Like when I go and do young Iantype coaching work with my
horses and clients, I'm notleading.
(43:04):
I'm not the leader.
One of my horses is the leader.
Sometimes the leadership tradesoff, you know, natural
horsemanship has focused on theleadership aspect of herd
dynamics.
There are many aspects of herddynamics that are now being
looked at more closely andstudied more closely.
It's not all about, it's not allabout the dominance and the
leadership.
(43:24):
There's plenty of interactionshappening out there among horses
that are not the leaders.
Let's look at those.
Let's take that for clues.
So it is, my perspective isextremely different and I don't,
I don't think naturalhorsemanship doesn't have a
place.
I just want people to understandthat absolute dominance.
(43:47):
is outdated as far as I'mconcerned.
I don't know if you lost methere.
I'm moving again.
Okay.
I did get the gist.
And I, I actually, I, I wouldn'tbe presumptuous enough to say
it's outdated or not, but I'mand I'm not saying you're being
(44:08):
presumptuous, but I considermyself a very grateful visitor.
The horse world, you horses.
So I would, I could not makethat statement.
But I do believe that the waythat we're working with these
animals.
is very different.
It's, we are, I am interested inthe animal choreographing us,
(44:31):
which means that the dancer isin a round pen trying to be as
receptive as possible andasking, what would you like to
do together?
Yes.
Now, the truth is, you took thathorse out of the pasture, you
(44:52):
put a halter on them and a leadline, and you brought them into
a round pen.
Right.
So there's dominance rightthere.
Right.
It is very hard to do this workin a pasture, we certainly have,
but they have a lot of work todo.
an enormous range of otherthings to pay attention to, not
the least of which is ediblegrass.
(45:12):
And right.
So when a horse comes in off 200acres to be with you and they
have a choice to be anywherethat says something.
Absolutely.
One of the things we work withis what happens next.
So you have their curiosity,which we are always very
grateful for.
(45:34):
And then what do you do withthat?
And to me, in physicallistening, at least
choreographically, that is avery big question.
That is the question.
One of the things that weexperienced when we were at
Colorado State, working withthis amazing Ph.
D.
candidate and faculty person whoworks with wild mustangs, and
(45:55):
she said, her theory is that, Sooften in natural horsemanship,
you're asking for two eyes andtwo ears.
And her theory is that a lot ofthe time, at least her
experience with these wildmustangs, is that's a state of
fear.
Yeah, the two eyes and two earsand nothing.
No one can learn anything in astate of fear.
(46:17):
Exactly.
Some of my podcasts with horsetrainers talk about that
exactly.
And the brain state and brainwaves that you are, or they are
in and the brain chemicals beingreleased when they are at a
state of optimal learning.
Versus fear versus notinterested.
And I've never heard that abouttwo eyes and two ears.
(46:38):
I've always heard one eye andone ear.
So, anyhow, this is herstatement.
She, she was fantastic.
And, you know, you asked me whatI'd like to do next.
I want to keep pursuing thisquestion of, As a dancer, how do
you allow another sentient beingto actually make that dance with
(47:00):
you?
And can you at the same time betracking on some sort of a
theatrical trajectory wheresomething changes?
It may be very possible that ifyou ask the horse, they would
say, I like to watch you dance.
And I like to dance sometimes,but I don't know if we can dance
(47:22):
together or if I want to like,or knock yourself out.
I'll watch.
That could be, that could be theanswer.
I do remember being in a roundpen with a four year old.
And I had this coat in my, thislinen coat, and I was just
experimenting.
I knew less than I know now.
(47:43):
And I dropped the coat and thenI dropped down and the horse
dropped his head and he sniffedthe coat.
And then I picked the coat upvery gently and just put a
little bit of rhythmic pressurebehind the tail.
And he took off and started towalk and then trot and he would
trot around the And then out ofcuriosity, he would stand and
(48:05):
face me.
So I took the coat again and Idropped it and he did exactly
the same thing.
And we did that pattern threetimes and fourth time, he picked
the coat up in his teeth.
And he trotted around the arena.
That's what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for that momentwhere the animal is improvising
(48:26):
with you.
And then I was so surprised anddelighted.
I didn't know what to do next.
Right.
And so part of the physical.
I've lost you again.
It sounds like you're sayingpart of the physical listening.
Sorry.
Is it that no, I got, we got tothe point where where you said,
(48:49):
that's what you want to exploremore is when they're interacting
with you and Liberty work,Liberty work does that can do
that.
And Liberty work can be not inthe round pan.
That's not Liberty work.
Liberty work is in the pasture.
Well, you know, you're talkingto someone who's a
choreographer.
So one of the skills that.
(49:09):
I'm interested in working on ishow to train at the moment a
dancer to shape something thathappens with the horse.
That's interesting for you, ahorse person to watch.
That will get you, maybe not youpersonally, but other people who
(49:31):
love these animals to seesomething they might never have
seen before.
Yes, and that's why I wanted tointerview you because that is
really important.
And I'm going to ask thequestion now, are you part of
the quiet revolution in thehorse world?
I don't know what that is.
I just got your email, but Idon't know what.
(49:51):
Okay.
I thought we had talked a littlebit about that.
So the quiet revolution in thehorse world is the reason I
started the podcast is to starta movement against absolute
dominance and to see that shifthappen.
Yeah, I'm right with you.
All right.
That's what I wanted to know.
(50:11):
I, you know, I did want to sayin all fairness to Linda
Pirelli.
That was what she loved aboutwatching us do this work.
She said, you know, somethingthat I don't fully understand.
And I think she was willing toadmit, you know, I continue to
be friends with her and now sheneeds to make a living on her
(50:34):
own separate from Pat.
And, I see the dominance comingback in and I recognize that
it's possible that her clienteleare women who want to be feel
safe.
Yeah.
And, and so I, I totally respectthat.
(50:54):
And I also understand that whatwe're trying to do is.
more similar to what you'retalking about in this quiet
revelation.
Right.
So it's establishing enoughtrust and allowing the horse
people trusting their horses totake them on a ride.
And I hope Linda gets to listento this episode and others.
(51:16):
My most popular episode is cocreated rides and I think that's
what people want.
I think that's what horse peopleare after.
Monty Roberts wrote about it inLife Lessons with a Ranch Horse.
It's listening to your horse.
That's, that's what people want.
I don't know why they don't doit, but they're getting there.
(51:37):
We're getting there.
Well, I, you know, one of thethings that we're working on
next is a theater piece where wereally look at our human
predatory nature.
Our need to dominate our need toour short term thinking, you
know the fact that we would sendtroops into Afghanistan and
(51:58):
after a year.
And everything they accomplishyou just put a whole new group
of people in.
There's no carry through.
There's no desire to reallyunderstand the indigenous people
there.
I think it's one of our humanfailings is that we're
impatient.
Our lifespan is relatively shortand we want to make things
(52:21):
happen.
And so one of the things thatwe're looking at in this next
piece we're making is how doesthis play out for women who are
trying to have more of apresence in this world?
How does this play out for humanbeings?
How does this contribute to?
(52:41):
Well, inadvertent cruelty, howdo autistic people see this like
autistic people have some traitsthat are going to give us a
really different window to someof those things you're talking
about.
And I think that that's a bigpart of.
Of shifting and humanconsciousness too.
I, I feel like as an autisticperson, I have, and this relates
(53:06):
to the co created rides.
I have a window into dismantlingthe illusion of separateness
that exceeds what normal peoplehave.
I lost you again.
Right.
Yeah, I know.
I'm continuing to wander throughmy apartment and plugging into
(53:31):
different outlets.
Yeah, I'm, I'm actuallyinterested that you interviewed
Rupert.
Isaacson.
Yeah.
He's wonderful.
He's just a wonderful person.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I'm thinking it's abouttime to wrap up.
Are you feeling like we'recomplete for now?
Sure.
Absolutely.
(53:52):
Thank you so much for this time.
Thank you again, Joanne.
It's nice to get to chat withyou more.
Okay.
Take care.
Bye bye.
This is Ishi Abel with the HorseHuman Connection Matrix.
(00:03):
I am without a theme song for alittle bit longer so my intro
will sound a little different.
Today I have with me JoanneMandelshaw, who is doing some
amazing work with Dancing withHorses and teaching physical
listening among some otherthings we may talk about today.
(00:23):
Welcome, Joanne.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Tell me about the Equus Project.
So the Equus Project is a dancecompany.
I formally formed the 501c3 in2004, but began the research for
(00:43):
the work in 1997 it is a companyof professional dancers, all of
whom have put serious time intotheir horsemanship ground skills
training.
We don't ride, we do work withriders, and a lot of our
projects have been done withpretty amazing riders.
(01:05):
Everything from the 9 to 14 yearolds at the barn that we train
at, to very advanced dressageriders.
in the Northeast.
We've done projects in 16 statesthroughout the country.
We've worked in Sweden.
I've taught some of thismaterial in Scotland in
(01:27):
Switzerland and always hungryfor new opportunities.
That sounds just amazing.
So I didn't realize that you'dbeen kind of formulating this
for such a long time.
What inspired you?
Well I moved back to New York in1991.
(01:47):
And I had attended Mount HolyokeCollege, which is a women's
college in Massachusetts.
That had, when I went there, andstill has a very active
equestrian program, a big,beautiful barn competing
students.
You can bring your horse andhave it there with you.
And when I moved back to NewYork, friends of mine were
(02:10):
chairing the dance departmentand they invited me to come and
do a big site specificperformance piece for the 20th
anniversary of the five collegedance program, which is Amherst.
Umass, Smith, Mount Holyoke, andHampshire.
Thought it would be inter theywere very adventurous
choreographers themselves, whohad done lots of site specific
(02:36):
work, and I wanted to dosomething on the campus, and so
I asked them if I could puttogether a piece with horses and
dancers.
And we went up to the barn,excuse me, and we asked C.
J.
Law, who ran the equestrianprogram there, and she said,
(02:59):
sure, why not?
And we remain in contact to thisday, and she's been sort of
delighted with what we've done.
I've done with this work.
The first pieces I did, I did, Iended up doing three pieces at
Mount Holyoke.
One was with the dressage team,so it was eight riders and eight
(03:21):
dancers, and we did the centralgreen at Mount Holyoke and The
big warning curve.
And then we did a big piece onthe Mandel Hillside for 50
movers all in white and onedancer with a white horse, a
ridden white horse.
So it was really more of an artinstallation.
(03:42):
And we did a piece for theindoor arena.
That we call body on body.
And that was the piece that Ilearned the most doing.
I worked with five dancers andthree riders who actually had
their horses at Mount Holyoke.
I have to tell you, I'm not ahorse person.
I didn't ride as a kid.
(04:03):
I knew nothing.
And it was just sheer curiosity.
I had been a slalom skier.
I love moving through space.
I was an athlete.
And what I discovered was thatthe dancers understood something
about how to embody an energeticstate and they would work on the
(04:26):
inside shoulder of the riddenhorse and the riders would say,
what are you guys doing?
Cause my horse has got his earon you and you're leading.
And I thought, I think dancershave a kind of physical
intelligence that isn't talkedabout in our training, but it's
(04:49):
a huge part of what we know whatwe learn from years of dance
training.
Right.
It's not.
emphasized.
I've taught in five differentconservatories.
Most of my faculty positionswere with wonderfully
accomplished dancers in Seattleand then in New York City.
(05:12):
I'm continuously fascinated andimpressed with the physical
intelligence that we as lifetimemovers have.
And yet that training is reallynot part of.
Any discourse in a dancer'straining think from my own
experience and learning, there'sa way.
(05:36):
One of the things I love aboutbeing in a dance class is being
with other beings.
That are moving through spacerhythmically together.
Like I just get such a kick outof that.
I get so much joy out of lookingin the mirror and seeing that I
am moving in unison with otherpeople to rhythm.
And I know that that's howhorses connect.
I've had a horse trainer whotaught me to focus on the rhythm
(05:59):
as a way of connectingenergetically with the horse.
So what you're saying makesperfect sense to me that dancers
inherently have that experiencethat every single day.
And so do horses.
So.
It seems like a very logicalconnection point.
I think to be honest, I thinkwhat I'm not positive that the
(06:20):
horses are connecting to therhythm and I'll talk more about
that.
I think what horses do isimmense amount of weight
sensing.
They sense energetic weight anddancers sense weight.
They sense it through theirtouch.
They sense it kinetically.
They sense it spatially.
And I think that's what horsesdo.
(06:41):
Okay.
They pick it up through the kindof flow and weight sensing in
your body and having taught alot of equestrians some of this
physical listening.
When you have someone who's justlearning ground skills and their
gesture in their posture are notintegrated.
(07:03):
They're not actually workingwith real.
weight because they might befearful or they're thinking very
hard.
The horse has a harder timereading them.
And I yeah, I don't think it'sabout the rhythm.
I think it's about the weight.
I'm saying this as someone who'syou know, I'm, I'm trained in
(07:24):
Laban movement analysis and it,it, And I've also worked with
very briefly with this brilliantneuroscientist, Ani Patel, who's
now at Tufts.
And he and David Litchman, who'sa wonderful natural horsemanship
trainer, and I David devisedthis experiment to see if the
horses were picking up on therhythm and the tempo of music.
(07:52):
And unfortunately, I think thatthe, the experiment was faulty.
Because he devised an experimentwhere he had music playing in
the arena, and then the riderhad different music in her
headphones, and the horse, Ithink that the controls there
are faulty.
Yeah, because the horse is goingto pick up on the riders body
(08:14):
language.
Horses pick up on all kinds ofthings.
And from my work with horses, Iknow if the work, if the
connection is deep, they'llfocus on what I'm focused on.
So if you're focused on weightand gravity, they'll also focus
on that.
(08:34):
So I don't think it's one or theother.
I think it's probably both andthat they default to your focus.
Yeah, in my mind, horses are thesuperior beings there.
They're smarter than we are in alot of ways, but that's just my
opinion.
Who did you say theneuroscientist was Annie Patel,
Annie Patel a and I, he was theseminal scientist.
(08:56):
He was looking at music in thebrain, was looking at snowball
this cockatoo.
And he's looking at the factthat Birds have language, and
the language acquisition isbased on how the brain processes
many different things, not theleast of it is weight sensing
and sound.
(09:17):
And I mean, he came away fromthe experiment, he wrote an
article afterwards, and he and Icommunicated, and we did not
think that there was conclusiveevidence.
The horse brain is actuallypicking up on the music itself,
but they are definitely pickingup on the weight that the human
is manifesting, and thegroundedness and yeah, weight
(09:41):
sensing which is sort ofintegral to what in this Laban
work is called a rhythm state,which is about weight and time.
What was the word you just said?
The log, the law bond movementanalysis.
Is L.
A.
B.
A.
N.
is a form of of movementanalysis.
(10:04):
It's it's it's quite westerncentric, but it has a way of
organizing how we look atmovement and detaching it from
our personal preferences.
And you're looking at the bodyand how the body, you know, this
is a rotator joint, and this isflexion and you're looking at
effort, which is.
(10:24):
divided into a spatial affinity,weight affinity, time affinity,
and flow.
And you're looking at space.
And he did a whole lot withwhat's called space harmony,
which is just fascinating, thearchitecture of space.
And then he looked at the notionof shaping, which is sort of
(10:44):
combining all those.
Elements together.
And I can talk about it a littlebit more.
I had never heard of it.
So I was really curious.
You study so many things.
Oh my gosh.
Well the love on movementanalysis came into my dance
life.
In my thirties one of my Cocompany members in the Bill
(11:06):
Evans Dance Company in Seattlewas one of the seminal
researchers in Laban.
And if you look it up, he wasQuite famous and developed a
very intricate system thatincluded what's called love on
notation, which now that we havesuch active video documentation
(11:28):
is not that necessary, but itwas written on a vertical staff
and it was.
A way of notating movement whichin itself, in my opinion, it has
some shortcomings because you'realways looking through your own
personal movement lens, right?
Right.
You know, so my affinity, I'mvery spatial.
I see space.
(11:48):
I send space.
That's what I'm going to seefirst.
You know, some people are moreaffine with weight.
Right.
Our lenses, our, ourexperiences, what we've studied,
who we are, all of that's goingto affect your perspective.
Let me ask you a little bit moreabout the Equus Project.
you started in 2004, had ideasof it several years before that,
(12:11):
and When was your first, so Iguess things I want to ask are
like, when was your firstperformance?
And you you've talked about itevolving a little bit.
And when I go to look, I can'tfind video except for the one.
If you look on Vimeo, there's alot on Vimeo.
(12:32):
So people can go and findperformances that are recorded
that you've done.
I wish I had done that.
I would have looked.
Oh, I'm sorry.
No, that's all right.
Have done Well over eight hugeperformance projects together.
And then I went to a dancer thatI had met in New York named Gina
Paililo.
(12:53):
And this was a dancer who wasalso a terrific athlete and
loved the notion of Beingvulnerable in performance, which
I think is something abouthorses, you have to be willing
to not know what comes next.
If you really want to dance withthem.
I mean, if you want to dominatethem, that's another thing.
(13:17):
Right.
So our first performances werein 1998.
And I did several of them andI'm appalled at how little I
knew, but I just wanted to jumpin.
And then in 2004, we got our501c3 nonprofit status.
And at that point, starting evenin 2002 3, we were invited by
(13:40):
the Flynn Performing Arts Centerin Burlington to do this huge
project in Burlington, Vermont.
And I had met a group of veryadvanced dressage writers up
there.
And we created a, an enormouspiece with 14 dancers and nine
horses and eight riders for theShelburne Museum using their
(14:05):
live carousel.
And we had children in thepiece.
Oh, wow.
Everything was seen through theeyes of our equestrian
director's nine year olddaughter and she stands in front
of this carousel and she bringsit to life and as it starts to
rotate the dancers appear ridingthese animals and she meets all
(14:25):
of them and they devise thisgestural language together and
then she introduces them each toa ridden horse and then it
progresses as much like thenutcracker, you know, they're
There are different events thatshow off different aspects of
how you can dance with a riddenhorse, a solo with a horse, and
a duet, and big groups.
(14:47):
And the first clinic I ever wentto was in Pensacola, Florida,
and it was A fourth leveladvanced natural horsemanship
clinic, and they're in this hugearena, all with their horses at
liberty.
And I went, this is amazing.
There was such a sense of thesehorses having so much fun.
(15:09):
And that began my journey firstwith David, and then he
introduced us to the Pirellis.
And.
We through the Pirellis met anamazing natural horsemanship
trainer named Karen Rolfe, whodoes dressage naturally, and
just got introduced into thehorse world through this Amazing
(15:34):
work that helped me as a nonhorse person to understand a lot
about how equines think.
And of course, then weeventually bumped into people
who have feelings about naturalhorsemanship and I began to
develop a point of view aboutwhat I really wanted to do with
(15:59):
horses.
Which was not dominate them andI realized that this is a very
privileged point of view becauseI don't own horses.
I don't have to feed them everyday.
I don't have to take them intoturnout.
I'm not responsible for myincome being tied to horses.
(16:19):
And I have the enormous luxuryof saying, I just want to
explore the voice of each ofthese animals, and I definitely
appreciate that that's a veryprivileged thing to say.
And yeah, so eventually.
We learned a lot of naturalhorsemanship, enough to learn
(16:45):
how much there was yet to learn.
Several lifetimes, I've heard,I've heard said many times.
You have this other project thatis physical listening did your
work with horses influence that,or is that just from dance, or
is that an accumulated?
What happened was we don't ownhorses.
We In the studio where there areno horses, where there are no
(17:05):
horses, so we're working witheach other, and I'll, I'll
explain what the catalyst wasfor this.
In 2004 we had a commission fromVirginia Commonwealth University
in Richmond, and it was thefirst time we were going to
choreograph a piece with theriderless horse.
We did it with a Bach Preludeand there were two round pens,
(17:27):
and in one was the owner of thisArabian Hamlet, and in the end,
Hamlet, and in the other was amale and female dancer.
And it was totally parallelchoreography.
Mm-hmm And we began working withthis trainer and, and her horse.
And every Monday we would drivetwo hours each way to begin
(17:51):
choreographing with Madri andHamlet, and we worked inside
this gigantic.
slightly heated arena.
It was freezing cold.
We would climb into our car tostay warm.
And our, David actually flewfrom Sacramento to train us.
Katja came from New York to takea look at what we were doing.
(18:14):
And it was beautiful.
I mean, it was just a beautifulpiece.
And about the fifth rehearsal,we put the music on.
And, and I should say at theclimax of this prelude, we had
Blake and Hamlet running threecircles.
And then, as you well know, ifyou put your eyes on a horse's
(18:38):
haunches, they'll turn towardsyou.
And then she just asked thehorse to gently back up and then
come towards her.
And then she released herenergy.
knowing full well that he woulddrop his head and exhale and
probably have a lovely moment.
So just for accuracy, thosehorses might be trained that way
(18:59):
or maybe east coast horses dothat, but all of my training and
reading and working with myhorse is eyes or belly button to
the rear drives them forward.
And it's a prey instinct.
So If you put the eyes at acertain point on their haunches,
it will drive them forward.
(19:19):
But if you put it on the hipbone, they will move away from
the pressure and because they'requadrupeds.
they'll actually very often faceyou.
And I, I have tried this withhorses that are not trained to
do this.
And so gaining a sense of howyou can help the horse move with
(19:41):
you is certainly part of naturalhorsemanship training, but they
actually do that with the in theherd.
I mean, I've seen horses putpressure on another horse's
haunches, and the horse willspin around.
At any rate, there's certainlylots of micro, there's certainly
lots and lots of micro movementsthat, that is, that is certain.
(20:01):
And there's certainly horseswill pick up on a person's micro
movements.
And if you don't do thingsexactly the same way, or, or
once you train them, that thismovement means that.
Then they'll be there every timewith it.
So yeah, it's very, it's a veryinteresting mix with so many
(20:21):
variables when you're beingpresent, and you're interacting
with them that way becausethere's the training, there's
the instinct, there's the herdlanguage, there's the
multicultural aspect of humanculture and horse culture coming
together.
It's, it's extremely intricateand fascinating.
(20:44):
I mean, moving through spacewith all of those variables, but
you, you were saying about beingin the studio together.
So I just wanted to finish thisstory.
So we put the music on andHamlet took one look at Madri
and ran three circles, facedher, took one step backwards and
(21:04):
then exhale.
And I thought, oh dear, whathave we done?
And I called David and he said,Joe, you're not rehearsing in
order, are you?
And I said, well, yeah, we'rerehearsing the piece.
And he said, the circus neverrehearses in order because the
horses will memorize thesequence and then skip to the
(21:24):
end to be done sooner.
And I thought, I have tocompletely retrain my dancers.
We have to learn how to learnthings completely differently.
We have to learn a different wayof functioning.
You can't be in memory time.
(21:45):
You have to be in real time.
And you cannot rehearse thingsover and over again.
Because the horse will getbored.
They'll learn things.
They learn faster than we do.
They respond to pattern.
And so the physical listeningwork evolved directly out of the
horsemanship.
(22:05):
And we began to develop a reallyexpansive practice that
continues to evolve in thestudio.
And then during COVID, I wrotethis.
Much too long book that has allof it in it, and they're about
(22:30):
in this book.
There are about 50 somaticexercises that are designed very
specifically to help peopleexpand a certain sensory
ability, for instance, workingin backspace.
You know, which I think is veryimportant with horses.
You need to know where they are.
You have them on a lead line.
(22:52):
If you're not paying attention,they'll just test you and drift
to the other side.
That awareness of alphanegotiation and how they are
negotiating to find out ifyou're a good leader are, is, is
a constant.
And can you constructchoreography that's sort of
(23:12):
based on that notion?
Can you create, we devised thisone Beautiful improvisation
called The Creature Duet.
And we would make a roundenclosure, like a round pen, and
then send one person in with aconstellation of behaviors that
was loosely based on maybe it'sthe horse they just worked on.
(23:33):
An introvert, but a curiousintrovert.
That spooks easily.
And then someone else goes intothe round pen as themselves.
And they really have to figureout by trial and error and
physical engagement, no talking,and a lot of observing how to
connect with that movingcreature.
(23:56):
And what we tried to get dancersto do is really own what we call
blink time, which is horsesprocess things differently than
humans.
And unless they're in fear mode,they're not going to respond
right away.
You can watch their brainprocessing and Dance is very
(24:17):
adverse to blink time, you know,five, six, seven, eight, and
then you're always moving.
And so to get dancers tounderstand.
You can be on stage and own thebeauty of blink time that you
can be on stage and it'll neverbe the same twice.
You have to pay attention allthe time.
(24:40):
I've always had the thought thatecstatic dance or pure improv
and getting good at pureimprovisational dance would make
every dancer on stage a betterdancer.
Because once you have thediscipline of all of the
movements and the language, youknow, of each Each move, each
(25:05):
sentence, but the fluidity, Imean, you can have fluidity in
choreography, but fluidity inwhat you were calling real time
that comes out of improvisation,puts you absolutely present.
And, and when you're talkingabout that that blink time or
pause time or being present sothat there's not this thought
(25:29):
process of what comes next orworking from the pattern that
you've done again and again andagain with repetition.
It's those moments that.
You know, as the, the meagerlittle dancer that, that, you
know, exposure to dance thatI've had in my life at a very
novice kind of level.
But I recognize that feeling inthat space as so similar to the
(25:53):
work I've done with horses inrelationship or horse ship.
That's a phrase that I'vecoined.
I don't want horsemanship.
I don't want horse woman ship.
I want.
I want a relationship with ahorse where either one of us can
lead where there's completetrust back and forth where the
dominance isn't necessary unlessit's for safety travel or
(26:16):
health, you know, in thosecases, I will institute A
benevolent leadership thatinsists on compliance.
But other than that, I don'twant to interact with my horses
like they're slaves.
I want, I want those preciousmoments of being purely present
and being welcomed into theirslower culture.
(26:36):
It's those it's those momentsand being able to, to, to.
help people get into that spacethat is really hard.
And the horses have taught me alot about that.
And I'm guessing that they'vetaught you a bit too.
And my suspicion is that thephysical listening comes from
(26:57):
being really present the micromovements, and being in the
space where You're turning offsome of the thinking.
Is that right?
Yeah.
I think that the, the thingabout ecstatic dance that I
think is different and, andyou've already addressed this is
(27:19):
when you're in a state ofecstatic dance, you're working
with that flow, but your focusis mostly on yourself.
And the thing about physicallistening is you're always in
relationship.
You're in relationship to the,to the space to an end and
mostly to another sentientbeing.
(27:40):
And to me you know, I, I've hadthis conversation with people
who do contact improvisation aswell as ecstatic dance.
And I think there's a lot ofemphasis on what my experience
is, but as you know being ahorse person, that, that the
(28:00):
state that you want to be in.
I think with this animal is in astate of communication and trust
and give and take.
And I do think thatimprovisation is a, is a really
important skill and it's you andI just mentioned, I think a
little bit, this course thatwe're a friend of a colleague of
(28:21):
mine is teaching at Stanford forphysicians.
And a big emphasis is on how doyou relate to another person?
How do you use physicallistening to be a better
communicator with your patient?
In addition to self care, theemphasis on the interactiveness
(28:42):
of it, the physical listeningpart.
It's not just listening toyourself.
That's of course important, butit's listening to that other
sentient being that seems soimportant and there's a, there's
to me an important level ofcompassion.
Unfortunately, this world isstruggling with these days.
(29:05):
And that's the part that feels.
Yeah, that feels different aboutthis work from the kind of
improvisation that someone doeswhen they're just working on
their own personal fluidity.
Yeah.
Again, with the lens, you know,everybody's experiences are so
(29:28):
different and I'm sure differentcontainers for improv and
ecstatic dance, you know, theones I visited differ quite a
bit.
as well.
So but I do hear what you'resaying about like sort of an
internal thing versus apartnership thing.
Yeah, I, I've had experienceswhere I'm in partnership with
(29:49):
different people duringdifferent parts of the dance and
there is that compassion andthat respect and that
exploration.
It's interesting.
So, It's your friend that'steaching the class on physical
listening, or is that you that'steaching the class?
We both, we both are.
She is a former dancer who endedup as a chemistry major at
(30:13):
Harvard and then went to NYUMedical School and is now at
Stanford as a resident inpediatrics.
And during the pandemic, webegan designing this course, and
I taught a couple workshops atNYU.
And then when she went toStanford, she asked me to come
out and teach last winter thiscourse.
(30:36):
And this year, I'm only going togo out once a month.
And I've worked with Nina andher assistant, who's also a
former dancer, and a pre medgrad of Stanford, and they'll be
teaching the course.
But what we discovered, and thisrelates to something that you
said earlier, is that four ofthe people, we had 12 people in
(31:01):
class last winter, four of themwere former dancers, and one of
them was a martial arts artistand a violinist.
They were all very familiar withimprov.
What we realized is the, theskills involved, the flow that
you're talking about, that senseof allowing your brain and body
(31:22):
to talk to each other is notsomething that many people
trust.
They have it, but they're notusing it as adults.
I think that our educationsystem in this country tends to
favor left brain learners, andit has a kind of 2
dimensionality to it, where the,the kind of playful porous
(31:47):
learning.
Is not something reinforced inyoung children, and in a way it
sort of gets taught out of us.
I listened to your interviewwith Sarah, and I think that for
for other able learners.
There is more of a fluidity, butit's not something that is
(32:09):
praised or recognized in the wayour schools are set up and the
way learning takes place.
And for five years we did aproject in far south Chicago and
worked with school for giftedkids.
And the principal was Sointerested in what we did with
physical listening, and wetaught 3rd through 5th grade for
(32:33):
2 weeks a year.
And then at the end of everyweek, we would take all the kids
to a horse farm and have themexperience how physical
listening manifests in anotherspecies.
That sounds fascinating.
Yeah.
Lucky, lucky kids.
Wow.
(32:54):
So much really wonderful stuffthat you have done and put
together and what anextraordinary life you've had as
a dancer and choreographer andteacher.
And there was another project Isaw on your website where in
another country, you worked withsome autistic children on a
dance project.
Do you want to tell me a littlebit about that?
(33:15):
So in 20, 2012, David Litchmanintroduced me to a Pirelli
Natural Horsemanship horseowner, but a theater director in
Sweden.
And her students were all on thespectrum, and she worked with
them for a long swath of theirlives, starting when they were
(33:39):
eight, seven and eight yearsold, all the way up through into
their twenties, and she createda theater company called Clinton
culture was in southern Sweden.
And she started creatingperformance works with them.
And her great goal was to hire achoreographer who actually
(34:03):
worked with horses.
And David had come to hercommunity and said, Well, I
actually know somebody that doesthis.
So I became connected to her,and she invited me to come to
southern Sweden to create aperformance piece, deep in a
forest.
(34:24):
At the site of this stone ruinwith horses and with her company
of young adults with autism.
So I brought four dancers and wecreated a full evening length
performance piece calledHastants Pahovdala and Hovdala,
it was the name of the castlethe family that owned this land.
(34:48):
It sounds magical.
It sounds absolutely magical.
And there's a documentary aboutit.
So you know, this, I went toSweden in April to meet her and
I thought this is going to makean amazing film.
And so I took a documentaryfilmmaker with me and we made a
full length documentary aboutthe creation of this work called
(35:09):
Hastan's Pahudala.
What do you want to do next?
I'm really interested inembodied intelligence.
And to that end I'm launchingthis think tank and, and I've
invited a collection of peopleto look at it.
A lot of them are dancers.
Some of them are, are horsepeople.
(35:30):
There's an acupuncturist who's ahorse trainer.
To I'm trying to gently nudge itout of our dance centric point
of view, because I think that Iwant to understand this for a
more sort of pan human.
So we're going to do once amonth, five hour sessions where
we go into a studio andbrainstorm the physical
(35:54):
listening process from each oftheir perspectives.
There's a dance educator atColumbia Teachers College.
There's of dance colleague ofmine who's also an equestrian
sort of a collection of peoplestarting more from the dance
centric point of view and thenhopefully doing it again.
With a more varied I'd love toput together one with scientists
(36:18):
who research physicalintelligence.
Yeah, I think that there's, Imean, I don't know if the goal
there is a therapeuticavailability of what gets
touched on in some of this workfor people, but I think that
that is really, really richalong with the dance is one of
the primitive culture activitiesthat enhances brain health.
(36:42):
It's kind of a little kick thatI've been on and something that
really fascinates me toresearch.
And it sounds akin to whatyou're talking about.
Yeah, absolutely.
So when you say you go out anddance with your horses, what do
you, what do you do with them?
I just wanted to try ityesterday.
I've been so inspired and Ididn't have any visuals, so I
(37:03):
didn't know.
And I thought, okay, well, whatdoes dancing with horses look
like to me?
You know, it's not the GrandPrix and it's not riding and
it's not, you know, it's notvaulting.
It's a way that I connect withthem.
So, I was combining what I'mlearning about Liberty work with
me dancing.
And of course my, my little coinbelt from belly dance, you know,
(37:25):
had my, my young Mustangsnorting at me.
And I use some of the, you know,horsemanship principles of like,
if I'm going to come over in thefield and take up this space,
you're going to move.
And I'm going to do that threetimes.
And then you're going to startfollowing me.
It's a version of join up.
So I guess, I'm just thinking asI'm talking, I guess I put music
on and did a mild version ofjoin up in the orchard with the
(37:51):
horses.
And I tried to film some of it.
It's just kind of funny.
And the, the goats were watchingand the dog was playing with me
dancing.
And it's just a sweet littletime out there, you know,
connecting to nature and my, mycritters.
That's cool.
How many horses do you have?
I have three and I have threegoats and I have two dogs.
(38:13):
So this has been reallywonderful.
Joanne, thank you for makingtime to visit.
Is there anything else you'dlike to talk about?
Hmm.
Well, I'm interested in, in, inhow we connect to these animals.
And at least in my horsemanshiptraining, working with rhythm,
(38:37):
depending on the personality ofthe horse can be effective or
can cause.
Stress for them.
Let, let me explain a littlebit.
I have this trainer that Iworked with for three years.
I was so fortunate to get towork with her and I wish she
would be full time with horses,but she's actually a human
(39:00):
therapist and, but she's knowsmore about horses than any three
horse people I have ever met andshe's very intuitive also.
So she taught me how to work myhorses.
in a round pen, using, beinggrounded, some of my body
language, my chakras, movingenergy up and down my chakras,
(39:24):
and focusing on their rhythm.
So as an example, I've got ahorse trotting, a young horse
trotting, who has not calmeddown a lot yet.
When he realized he could beheart to heart connected, like
heart math connected to me, at atrot, He was just so filled with
(39:46):
joy because he'd been so anxiousup until that point.
So then if I move my energy frommy chest down to my feet, and I
think in my brain, a walk rhythmrather than a trot rhythm, he'll
respond to that.
Nice.
So it's like the aids becomeinternal by moving energy in
(40:11):
myself.
The horse is paying attentionby.
And it.
There's also physical outsideaids because I'm not, you know,
100 percent practiced at it.
But it's possible to communicatewith horses with the front of
your head by putting an image inthe front of your head and
having them read it.
(40:31):
I mean, first you have to have arelationship.
You have to have trust.
They have to want to know whatyou're thinking.
And they have to be willing totalk to you.
I mean, horses have beenignored.
Most horses are ignored, youknow?
And like, I use this example allthe time.
If you kidnap somebody and theykeep asking questions and you
(40:52):
don't talk to them, they'regoing to quit asking questions.
Horses are like that.
Horse, everything a horse does,every move a horse makes around
a human, to me, is them asking aquestion.
Can I come out of the stall?
Am I done eating?
Are you, are you gonna keepworking me?
(41:12):
Is this what you mean?
You want me to stop here?
They're asking questions all thetime.
And so when you look at itthrough that lens, instead of
the dominant lens of, eventhough natural horsemanship is
gentle, it's completelymanipulative and it's completely
dominant.
There's no room for the horse tohave a choice, the natural
(41:36):
horsemanship that I know.
Now people may be using the termnatural horsemanship, you know,
to mean many different things.
Right.
Oops.
Sorry.
No, that's okay.
I don't know what you're saying.
Sorry for but does that answerthe question a little bit about
some of the rhythm?
(41:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know I know you take issuewith the work word natural
horsemanship, but there aremany, many different versions of
it.
And.
We, we, we have definitelyencountered trainers who say,
unless you understand how to bea good leader, you're never
(42:17):
going to have the conversation.
And, you know, that's a littleintimidating.
So, and.
So let me talk a little bit tothat because there's some
accuracy.
I use natural horsemanship.
I've read the Pirelli book.
I have used, you know, Pirellimoves to help with my horses,
but going deeper, I think a lotof times they are misinterpreted
(42:41):
and misused by people who don'tfully understand them.
And I think we need to admitthat it is manipulation and
yeah, there is a leadershipfactor, but the trust.
is more important.
Like when I go and do young Iantype coaching work with my
horses and clients, I'm notleading.
(43:04):
I'm not the leader.
One of my horses is the leader.
Sometimes the leadership tradesoff, you know, natural
horsemanship has focused on theleadership aspect of herd
dynamics.
There are many aspects of herddynamics that are now being
looked at more closely andstudied more closely.
It's not all about, it's not allabout the dominance and the
leadership.
(43:24):
There's plenty of interactionshappening out there among horses
that are not the leaders.
Let's look at those.
Let's take that for clues.
So it is, my perspective isextremely different and I don't,
I don't think naturalhorsemanship doesn't have a
place.
I just want people to understandthat absolute dominance.
(43:47):
is outdated as far as I'mconcerned.
I don't know if you lost methere.
I'm moving again.
Okay.
I did get the gist.
And I, I actually, I, I wouldn'tbe presumptuous enough to say
it's outdated or not, but I'mand I'm not saying you're being
(44:08):
presumptuous, but I considermyself a very grateful visitor.
The horse world, you horses.
So I would, I could not makethat statement.
But I do believe that the waythat we're working with these
animals.
is very different.
It's, we are, I am interested inthe animal choreographing us,
(44:31):
which means that the dancer isin a round pen trying to be as
receptive as possible andasking, what would you like to
do together?
Yes.
Now, the truth is, you took thathorse out of the pasture, you
(44:52):
put a halter on them and a leadline, and you brought them into
a round pen.
Right.
So there's dominance rightthere.
Right.
It is very hard to do this workin a pasture, we certainly have,
but they have a lot of work todo.
an enormous range of otherthings to pay attention to, not
the least of which is ediblegrass.
(45:12):
And right.
So when a horse comes in off 200acres to be with you and they
have a choice to be anywherethat says something.
Absolutely.
One of the things we work withis what happens next.
So you have their curiosity,which we are always very
grateful for.
(45:34):
And then what do you do withthat?
And to me, in physicallistening, at least
choreographically, that is avery big question.
That is the question.
One of the things that weexperienced when we were at
Colorado State, working withthis amazing Ph.
D.
candidate and faculty person whoworks with wild mustangs, and
(45:55):
she said, her theory is that, Sooften in natural horsemanship,
you're asking for two eyes andtwo ears.
And her theory is that a lot ofthe time, at least her
experience with these wildmustangs, is that's a state of
fear.
Yeah, the two eyes and two earsand nothing.
No one can learn anything in astate of fear.
(46:17):
Exactly.
Some of my podcasts with horsetrainers talk about that
exactly.
And the brain state and brainwaves that you are, or they are
in and the brain chemicals beingreleased when they are at a
state of optimal learning.
Versus fear versus notinterested.
And I've never heard that abouttwo eyes and two ears.
(46:38):
I've always heard one eye andone ear.
So, anyhow, this is herstatement.
She, she was fantastic.
And, you know, you asked me whatI'd like to do next.
I want to keep pursuing thisquestion of, As a dancer, how do
you allow another sentient beingto actually make that dance with
(47:00):
you?
And can you at the same time betracking on some sort of a
theatrical trajectory wheresomething changes?
It may be very possible that ifyou ask the horse, they would
say, I like to watch you dance.
And I like to dance sometimes,but I don't know if we can dance
(47:22):
together or if I want to like,or knock yourself out.
I'll watch.
That could be, that could be theanswer.
I do remember being in a roundpen with a four year old.
And I had this coat in my, thislinen coat, and I was just
experimenting.
I knew less than I know now.
(47:43):
And I dropped the coat and thenI dropped down and the horse
dropped his head and he sniffedthe coat.
And then I picked the coat upvery gently and just put a
little bit of rhythmic pressurebehind the tail.
And he took off and started towalk and then trot and he would
trot around the And then out ofcuriosity, he would stand and
(48:05):
face me.
So I took the coat again and Idropped it and he did exactly
the same thing.
And we did that pattern threetimes and fourth time, he picked
the coat up in his teeth.
And he trotted around the arena.
That's what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for that momentwhere the animal is improvising
(48:26):
with you.
And then I was so surprised anddelighted.
I didn't know what to do next.
Right.
And so part of the physical.
I've lost you again.
It sounds like you're sayingpart of the physical listening.
Sorry.
Is it that no, I got, we got tothe point where where you said,
(48:49):
that's what you want to exploremore is when they're interacting
with you and Liberty work,Liberty work does that can do
that.
And Liberty work can be not inthe round pan.
That's not Liberty work.
Liberty work is in the pasture.
Well, you know, you're talkingto someone who's a
choreographer.
So one of the skills that.
(49:09):
I'm interested in working on ishow to train at the moment a
dancer to shape something thathappens with the horse.
That's interesting for you, ahorse person to watch.
That will get you, maybe not youpersonally, but other people who
(49:31):
love these animals to seesomething they might never have
seen before.
Yes, and that's why I wanted tointerview you because that is
really important.
And I'm going to ask thequestion now, are you part of
the quiet revolution in thehorse world?
I don't know what that is.
I just got your email, but Idon't know what.
(49:51):
Okay.
I thought we had talked a littlebit about that.
So the quiet revolution in thehorse world is the reason I
started the podcast is to starta movement against absolute
dominance and to see that shifthappen.
Yeah, I'm right with you.
All right.
That's what I wanted to know.
(50:11):
I, you know, I did want to sayin all fairness to Linda
Pirelli.
That was what she loved aboutwatching us do this work.
She said, you know, somethingthat I don't fully understand.
And I think she was willing toadmit, you know, I continue to
be friends with her and now sheneeds to make a living on her
(50:34):
own separate from Pat.
And, I see the dominance comingback in and I recognize that
it's possible that her clienteleare women who want to be feel
safe.
Yeah.
And, and so I, I totally respectthat.
(50:54):
And I also understand that whatwe're trying to do is.
more similar to what you'retalking about in this quiet
revelation.
Right.
So it's establishing enoughtrust and allowing the horse
people trusting their horses totake them on a ride.
And I hope Linda gets to listento this episode and others.
(51:16):
My most popular episode is cocreated rides and I think that's
what people want.
I think that's what horse peopleare after.
Monty Roberts wrote about it inLife Lessons with a Ranch Horse.
It's listening to your horse.
That's, that's what people want.
I don't know why they don't doit, but they're getting there.
(51:37):
We're getting there.
Well, I, you know, one of thethings that we're working on
next is a theater piece where wereally look at our human
predatory nature.
Our need to dominate our need toour short term thinking, you
know the fact that we would sendtroops into Afghanistan and
(51:58):
after a year.
And everything they accomplishyou just put a whole new group
of people in.
There's no carry through.
There's no desire to reallyunderstand the indigenous people
there.
I think it's one of our humanfailings is that we're
impatient.
Our lifespan is relatively shortand we want to make things
(52:21):
happen.
And so one of the things thatwe're looking at in this next
piece we're making is how doesthis play out for women who are
trying to have more of apresence in this world?
How does this play out for humanbeings?
How does this contribute to?
(52:41):
Well, inadvertent cruelty, howdo autistic people see this like
autistic people have some traitsthat are going to give us a
really different window to someof those things you're talking
about.
And I think that that's a bigpart of.
Of shifting and humanconsciousness too.
I, I feel like as an autisticperson, I have, and this relates
(53:06):
to the co created rides.
I have a window into dismantlingthe illusion of separateness
that exceeds what normal peoplehave.
I lost you again.
Right.
Yeah, I know.
I'm continuing to wander throughmy apartment and plugging into
(53:31):
different outlets.
Yeah, I'm, I'm actuallyinterested that you interviewed
Rupert.
Isaacson.
Yeah.
He's wonderful.
He's just a wonderful person.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I'm thinking it's abouttime to wrap up.
Are you feeling like we'recomplete for now?
Sure.
Absolutely.
(53:52):
Thank you so much for this time.
Thank you again, Joanne.
It's nice to get to chat withyou more.
Okay.
Take care.
Bye bye.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.