November 16, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode, Katie talks about fame, her real passions, and how she got where she is today. A lovely down to earth visit with a unique muscian and mom.
Certaily our dreams and our expereinces shape our realities. How much roll does our culture play in this? And can we make the shifts that bring joy to more people?
Katie's links;
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDjcXLSUt9Sb0bnW22kIFmA
https://www.facebook.com/katiesontagmusic
http://soundcloud.com/katiesontag
http://patreon.com/katiesontag
http://katiesontag.com/
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
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(00:25):
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The place is a destination farmnear the Umpqua Forest and River
that slows down visitors andpatrons enough to experience the
(00:48):
shift.
The Voice is this podcast.
Welcome to today's episode.
Hi, I'm Ishi Abel with the HorseHuman Connection Matrix, and
today I have Katie Sontag withme, who is a singer and
(01:13):
musician, and I just want toknow a little bit more about her
journey.
So she's agreed to do aninterview with me today.
Welcome, Katie.
Thanks.
I'm really excited.
Me too.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you got started with music.
(01:34):
Well, when I was eight I, my, mymom enrolled me in a summer arts
camp and a part of the camp waslike a theater program and We
had these auditions, like Ididn't know it was an audition
when it was happening, but theyhad us all sing individually and
(01:57):
I ended up getting picked aslike Peter Pan, like the lead
role in that little like song wewere doing.
And so that was my firstexposure to like singing and,
well, I was in Like littlechoirs and stuff.
I mean, it kind of developedfrom there.
So that was my first memory oflike being seen as someone on
(02:20):
stage who has some level ofskill or that want, that people
want to see on stage and sing.
Yeah.
Like, like, like a worthiness ofan audience at eight.
Yeah.
And it was very, like, it waslike, really, I remember being
very surprised.
Like my family is not musical atall.
It's not something I grew upwith.
(02:42):
So I mean, I did grow up with itwhen I was eight, it started.
And then then pretty soon afterthat, when I was like 11, my
parents won a piano and araffle.
And so, yeah.
And so then I my babysitter liketaught me like heart and soul
and like little things likethat.
(03:03):
And I started playing and thenmy parents, my parents got me
piano lessons.
So I played classical piano witha teacher until I was 18.
And so that gave me like areally good foundation and
reading music and like beinglike music being like a personal
practice.
And that was, so my high schoolyears.
(03:24):
Had a lot of that and also beingin the musicals and taking music
theory and dating musicians andsinging a lot and being in the
choirs and like the specialacapella choirs.
And so, yeah, like it, it feltlike my childhood, like I I grew
(03:46):
up with like mentors that werewanting to help me become a
musician.
And there were also forces oflike discouragement too, which I
think is something that so manyof us have experienced as
children.
And I recently have been likereally thinking a lot more about
(04:09):
what it means to be a musicianand that we're all musicians and
that this is something that is abirthright for all of us.
And like wanting to reallyencourage all people.
To be making music and singingtogether and just wanting to be
cultivating that in ourcommunity here.
(04:29):
So did you have a lot of goalswith, like you said, you had
mentors and you were pretty muchimmersed in music and theater
and singing too.
I like the way you phrase that,that you were discouraged or
they were discouraging forces.
What, what, what were those?
Well, I think in my life it waslike, Oh, we're so glad that you
(04:56):
like to sing or so glad you liketo play.
But like, That's a hobby.
That's just for fun.
And like, I get that now as anadult and a parent.
And I think that that's reallynot what I wanted.
I wanted more than that for me.
(05:18):
So you think that they weretrying to create a buffer so you
wouldn't be disappointed if youdidn't?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I grew up in New York.
Oh, I did not know that.
Yeah, I grew up in New York inthe suburbs of New York City.
in Westchester County andthere's a lot of professional
musicians and artists in thatarea and it's like there's just
(05:44):
kind of like a different or mypersonal experience is like the
way people view the arts isreally different than here and
do they take it more seriously?
Yeah.
Is that what you mean?
That's my opinion.
Yeah.
Like, and, and like seriously,and maybe like not the most
(06:08):
positive way of, I mean, myexperience was that if it's not
classical and it's not likeperfect, then it's not, you're
not good enough.
That was sort of like themessage I received, like
ultimately, like when, when Iwas like, so I had a lot of,
(06:31):
There were like various mentorsand like encouraging adults, you
know, and then when I was like18 and it's like time to leave
the kind of like bubble of mycommunity growing up, it felt
like that disappeared.
And even within that, it's like,it was really difficult to
(06:53):
maintain a belief in myself inthat context because you know.
Like, for example, there wasthis thing called NISMA that I
remember where you go, where wewould go in and like play a
piano piece for like a judge.
And I don't remember what thejudge, who the judge was, like
(07:16):
some classical musician,probably in some orchestra.
I don't know.
And they would critique it andlike evaluate it.
And have a conversation with me.
And so I did that a few timesand I just, the nerves, the
nerves, like the nervousness ofit, and I remember that being
(07:41):
discouraged by the evaluation,like her actually saying like,
well, like, Is this really whatyou want to be doing and like
lots of judgment, lots ofjudgment.
Yeah.
Like, not like, not like this ishow you get better.
Right.
But you might not fit.
And I, it, that I got that alot.
(08:04):
I feel like I got that a lot,like in like, like eight around
18, 19, like when I was whenlike the possibility of studying
music at a college level couldhave happened.
Crucial years.
Yeah.
Crucial.
Like, yeah, exactly.
And now looking back on that, Ifeel really sad.
(08:24):
Because I made the choice atthat point to not, like, I
basically didn't, I like forgotthat I played music my whole
college, like for four years.
I just like, I didn't reallysing, didn't play.
I didn't play guitar at thatpoint yet.
Abstinence.
(08:45):
Yeah.
Because I just told myself Iwasn't good enough and it wasn't
the right thing for me to pursueand I just stopped.
Even though I remember applyingfor college and like, letting
myself have the fantasy and thethought like, could I study
music?
Like, could I?
You know and wanting that.
And then.
shutting it down.
(09:05):
And I really blame like theculture that I was of that
region in part, and that's partof why I don't live there.
Because then coming to the WestCoast, after I graduated from
college, almost immediately, myfriend, a friend I met, put a
(09:27):
guitar in my hand and taught methree chords.
And I started writing songs, youknow, and so, yeah, it was like
a total 180.
And all of that stuff about, Imean, of course I still struggle
with my not enough conditioning,for sure.
(09:48):
But so much of that went awayand, And just finding this more
heart centered way of playingand being together in music.
And it's that it's just been ajourney deeper into that ever
since then.
I think anybody that's pursuingtheir dreams bumps up against
that and how we handle it is,and how people around us, how
(10:12):
adults around us, and like youwere saying, your community and
the people that support youhandle that is, is is really
crucial and it, it can make youor, or break you or send you on
a journey to, you know, comeback to yourself.
Yeah.
I don't even know, realize likehow the, some of the very small
(10:35):
things we might say to a youngadult or even a fellow adult
who's our age, like could reallyaffect them.
Right.
Not knowing if it's I mean, it'sgood to have other perspective
for sure.
But if we could teach kids andpeople to filter best.
(10:59):
You know, what comes in likethat whole filtering process
that is part of those exercisesthat we, that we would do in
those workshops we did togetherof taking it in and is this
true?
If it's not true, is theresomething like this that people
are seeing that looks like that?
Like that's, that's such animportant skill that isn't
really part of our culture.
(11:19):
And so we hurt each other allthe time because we don't have
that inner strength.
Yeah.
Like it becomes more about like,who am I?
From seeing it from everyoneelse's eyes.
And like, instead of like, whoam I in here?
Right.
I mean, and that's normal.
I think until we're 25, we'relooking to the outside world for
(11:43):
that reflection to make senseof.
where we do fit in and who weare.
But at some point there, thereneeds to be a shift or the
solid, solidarity that happensas we grow for sure.
So the whole thing about beingfamous, did you, did you allow
yourself to dream?
(12:05):
Do you now allow yourself todream?
It's a good question.
I mean, I remember, I rememberhaving dreams when I was really
young of like, I mean, musicaltheater is a really big part of
my.
Initial love affair.
And I, and it still is,honestly, I, I love it.
(12:29):
I listen to it all the time.
And I would have like fantasiesof like being on Broadway.
When I was like eight and nineand you know, really young.
And now, yeah, I, do I let, letmyself dream about being famous?
I don't really, I mean, I have.
(12:50):
Yeah.
Obviously, and like sometimesthat comes up but it's kind of,
it feels a little too painful toreally allow that dream to
become like a goal because it'sI've, I've realized recently,
(13:12):
like maybe even in like the lastyear that my, I feel so much
better when I.
focus on what's right here infront of me and what's
accessible to me now.
And I, it's, yeah, it's sort oflike that psychological truth
that like, when we accept whatis, then like we can grow kind
(13:36):
of, it, it kind of feels likethat.
And yeah, this summer I did havesome opportunities to like
travel and lead songs in othercities.
And that was sort of like, alittle like step toward like
maybe being a little bit morewell known and it did feel
(13:56):
really good and I would like tobe more well known and and I
would like it to be easier likeI would like to write songs and
have it not be like like a laborto be heard that I, I struggle
with that.
And I'm sort of trying to see itas just like, I put one foot in
(14:17):
the of the other and like, I putout my email list at my gigs and
I get a couple extra emailsevery time I play a gig and, you
know, over time that grows and Igo to a singing event in
Pennsylvania and I, I meetpeople there and I have a good
experience and then I come homeand I'm with my daughter and
(14:37):
like, I don't know.
Yeah.
Well, I, I just, I just want tosay like, I hadn't seen you.
We reconnected last summer.
I came to one of your events andI hadn't seen you in what?
Like eight, 10 years, somethinglike that.
Wow.
Yeah.
I think it, I think it had beenthat long at 20 2016 or 2017.
(15:02):
Maybe.
And, and my experience of youwas quite different now that
you're a mother and that you'vebeen performing and just like
really come out of your shell.
And there was just so much joyand energy that radiated from
you as a performer that I, youknow, didn't see before, but of
(15:26):
course before when I saw youperform it was, you know, for a
small group of people at the endof a gathering.
It wasn't like a public eventeither where you're, where
there's a lot of projection orroom for that projection, but I
just so enjoyed being with youand how uplifting the singing
was and opening art and thecallback.
(15:46):
I am not a singer.
I, I truly do not have a goodvoice.
I think I'm tone deaf.
And yet I felt goodparticipating with what you were
doing.
It was amazing.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
I love that you felt that.
Yeah, I, I did.
And I want to say the turtlething because a long time ago,
(16:08):
and it, this, at this workshopwe were in, there's an
opportunity to give other peoplea reflection.
And the reflection I had givenyou was that I was, it was like,
you were a turtle where youwould stick your head out and,
and be all you could be.
And then you would like pulleverything back in your legs in
(16:29):
your head and just be in yourshell.
And then you would come outagain and in.
And then I remember someone elsesaying it to you too.
And when you're talking aboutthe influences that you had that
were suppressing you as youwere, you know, growing as a kid
with, with your love of thisart.
(16:50):
I can totally see where, wherethat might've come from.
And I just, I don't, I don't seeit anymore.
And that just feels feels reallyexpansive and big.
Thanks.
I it feels really awesome to getthat reflection.
It's kind of funny because whenI was in fourth grade we had a
(17:11):
school play and I told youmusical theater really
influenced me and I was aturtle.
I was actually the, I was themain turtle and I saying this
turtle song and like all, it wasthis play that someone wrote, in
the community and.
We were all animals or thesegroups of animals.
(17:32):
I the lead turtle and there wereall these other turtles who
would dance around me and Istaying in the middle and this
whole turtle song anyway.
So it's, it's very pleasing tome.
The turtle energy and, I.
understand looking back that andI might still have a little bit
of it, but honestly, like theexperience of becoming a mom,
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has been the, the single mosttransformative experience of my
life.
Absolutely.
And I think I'm still coming.
I'm still like in that on thatpath of being birthed from that.
Because It's not just about menow, obviously.
I mean, like it ever was, butjust having her as my guiding
(18:22):
light of who do I want to be?
Who do I want to show her?
You know, what example am I toher?
Just knowing so much in my heartthat I want her to be bold and I
want her to be fully herself andembodied and confident.
And so I do that the best I can.
(18:43):
You lead by example.
It's a lot of, it is a lot ofresponsibility.
I think not enough women reallytalk about what happens in like
psychologically after givingbirth to a child.
I mean, it is so much pain.
And going through this amazing,painful, incredible experience,
(19:05):
and then having your lifecompletely changed on the other
side of it, if you're consciousabout it, it is huge.
And it is life changing.
And the responsibility thatcomes with it.
With having children that Idon't know that everybody fully
recognizes.
Yeah.
I don't think so.
Unless they have one or, or havehad one or yeah, I, I've been
(19:27):
like kind of in shock about theway our world treats this and
how different it's been from mypersonal experience.
But then when I haveconversations like this, it's
apparent that we all get it, youknow?
It's not depicted really fullyin the media.
(19:48):
It's not like when I gotpregnant and everybody says
congratulations, that's thething everybody says, like,
congratulations.
And I was just like, this feelstotally inadequate for what is
happening to me.
Like, thanks.
because it wasn't just like, Ihad a really rough pregnancy
(20:11):
where I was literally.
Puking every day.
Yeah.
Like I got a little better atone point, but it wasn't like
the typical, like, yeah, thefirst trimester is morning
sickness and then you're good.
It was not like that for me.
So it really felt like aninitiation, like literally.
(20:36):
So it was really difficult to belike, kind of just like trying
to stand.
Like every day and just liketrying to like get by and be
okay and have people be like,congratulations, like eggs, but
yeah, anyway just like all thedifferent stages of like
pregnancy, birth, postpartum andgoing through postpartum and,
(21:01):
and simultaneous to postpartumis infancy.
So like, you know, that's areally big deal to be complete,
like that's all consuming.
And so now my daughter's almostthree and I feel like I've
reached a new place where I'mcalling it in my head post
(21:22):
postpartum because I feel likepostpartum in a lot of ways was
like a death experience for me.
And like which makes sense.
Death and life, like.
You know, your old life, yourold life definitely died when
you're taking care of an infant.
There's no ability to like, takecare of myself.
(21:44):
I mean, like, this is, this isnormal.
I mean, I think if we like livedin a world where, you know,
There was like, it was, I mean,more ritual, more ritual around
and more recognition communitylike real community where it's
like, Oh, here's the like,lactating women all together,
(22:06):
you know, like I had a lot ofissues with breastfeeding that
were really upsetting to mewhere my daughter wouldn't latch
wouldn't breastfeed.
Immense amounts of shame becauseI was so set on her
breastfeeding and like, I wasliterally like every three hours
(22:27):
around the clock pumping, likepumping, pumping, pumping.
People don't probably don't evenknow what pumping is.
Pumping is when you put cups onyour boobs and you like are
milked like a cow.
Not to like, it's sacred.
It has its sacredness, you knowwhat I mean?
And it was so like, weird, youknow?
(22:51):
And so I just had thesefantasies oh, I want my
lactating women to be like,living near me.
I want to be able to them toshow me.
I had five lactation consultantsand it like didn't work.
Yeah, it was really hard.
And there's this, I hope it'sokay to go off on this, but
sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, cool.
There's what happened for us,and I think this is really
(23:14):
common is that she was born andmy milk hadn't come in.
And so there's this period oflike three to five days where
your child that you justbirthed, they need you.
So much, and she's basicallystarving, because she can't get
(23:34):
my milk.
And this is just like, proves tome that we are not living the
right way, because if we wereliving more family big family,
world, then like, there would bea woman who has her milk, who's
like, takes my baby and, and mybaby feeds, perhaps that's a
really radical idea to somepeople, To me in that moment, it
(23:57):
was like all I wanted, you know,no, this, you know, this goes
back.
I know you probably haven'tlistened to very many of my
podcasts and you're a very busywoman, but I've been on a thing
about primitive activities,primitive cultures, the
activities that happened when welived in tribes or people that
(24:18):
still live in tribes.
And there's a lot of brainhealth that.
Is neglected because of theseactivities we don't do.
There's a lot of physical healththat doesn't happen.
Like walking barefoot on theground, sitting on the ground,
cooking over a fire, being in agroup, drumming, singing
together, dancing together,walking off trail, hunting and
(24:40):
gathering all of these thingsthat, and those are just a few
of the things.
And what you're talking aboutis, you know, the shared
experience and community andcaring for.
for children that would happenin a tribal society.
Yeah.
We need, I feel like if we couldbring the, a lot of those
(25:01):
activities back into our culturesomehow.
Yeah.
Even if there's two or three ofthem and people could
participate in that, like evenjust being in the forest or at
the river or the ocean, we wouldbe so much better off.
Yeah.
And so what you're talking aboutis absolutely on topic and, you
(25:22):
know, the name of the podcastabout the horses is about
slowing down is one way to enterback into that.
And that's one of the things thehorses offer is this doorway
into slowing down enough torealize, you know, what we're
missing and pull some of thosepieces back into our culture and
(25:43):
into our lives.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As you're talking about that, itmakes me think about my love for
these singing gatherings thatI've been going to for, I mean,
some I've been going to since Icame to Oregon.
So that was part of, that'sreally part of why I've remained
(26:06):
here is this experience thatpeople have cultivated.
It's now exists, it doesn't justexist here, but there's a pretty
big strong community of peoplewho like to just gather in the
woods and sing together and sitlike and teach each other like
(26:28):
what you said you experienced atin Elkton, call and response
singing.
It's like that kind of singing,where we're, it's accessible.
It's taught orally and like,usually without written music,
even though I am a fan ofwritten music, but I think it's
really cool in this setting.
(26:49):
To me it does feel like a returnto something that my ancestors
were in touch with, that I'm noteven aware of exactly what songs
they were singing or like howthey were doing it.
But just like singing and makingmusic as like.
Yeah, a way to connect and bepresent and in community and,
(27:12):
and connect to that primal.
From a very somatic experienceof like, like being involved
versus being the audience howthat felt in my body and my
heart opening and, and theconnection.
It feels like a very spiritual,sacred thing and so missing and
(27:34):
such a different experience thansinging where there's so much
judgment, especially since it'snot something that's in my
skillset, you know, I'm muchmore comfortable dancing than I
am singing.
That there's, acceptance of itand participation and joining.
(27:56):
That's exactly what I'm tryingto create.
So I'm really glad youexperienced that.
Yeah.
And I'm really glad you'recreating it because it's so
important and so healing.
Yeah.
Way better than being famous.
Although I hope you get to befamous too.
Yeah, it's yeah, I think maybebeing famous is overrated.
(28:19):
I mean, it seems like a lot ofpeople who are famous, at a
certain level are not doing wellpsychologically.
I, it's so nourishing for me tobe in a situation where people
are singing with me.
So I do what we're talkingabout, the community singing.
(28:39):
And also I, what I do like 10times a week is I go to
residential care facilities andI lead sing alongs with the
patients there.
And that's also reallynourishing in like a totally
different way because we're,we're doing I have a song book
(29:04):
of 120 covers.
I let them choose usually, andwe do songs that they know, a
lot of them from theirchildhood.
And just try, so I just try tomake it as inclusive as
possible.
And like, yeah, hope that theyget that same, that same
(29:30):
quality.
I bet there's so many healthbenefits to what you're doing
too.
I wish somebody would do athesis on that and do some
measuring and some non profitwould coordinate it and pay for
it.
And I mean, there's so manystudies like that, that we could
be doing that.
Once there's clinical evidencethat things are working, there's
more funding for it, you know,and that means it spreads.
(29:53):
And unfortunately I mean, it'sgreat when things can just be
organic and volunteer based.
But in our culture, people,people, I would like to see
people get paid for doingvaluable work that makes a
measurable difference.
That I know right now is makinga measurable difference, but
nobody's measuring it.
I, I truly am not educated aboutthat.
(30:17):
The studies, but I thinkthere've been some studies, it's
just not my expertise.
Years ago when I, when I was 38,I was in the nursing program and
I had to do a research paper andI did it on aging.
And I had one peer reviewedarticle back then where peer
(30:38):
reviewed articles were stillvery respected that talked
about.
In a retirement home, they justhad people have pictures of
themselves as younger peopleout.
And I think they even wore abadge of themselves younger,
like around their neck.
And they measured theinteractions and they played
music from the decades thatthose people were teenagers and
(31:00):
they did do some measuring andit just the pictures of the
music had a huge effect.
Wow.
So yeah, I'm sure there's morestudies out there too.
I don't know what they are,Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Yeah, I feel like our, we don'tvalue aging in the way that I
think would help all of us andbenefit all of us and us as
(31:24):
aging people and also us asneeding the wisdom of all the
ages, you know?
So yeah, I just do my best.
When I'm there to, yeah, treatevery person like they have
something to offer me.
(31:44):
I have something to offer themand It's really joyful in that
way.
Like I kind of see myself aslike a joy bringer, which
sometimes is difficult when I'mnot feeling joyful, you know,
and I and like but Somehow it'slike if I'm having a bad day,
(32:05):
I'm tired Whatever, like, I walkin there and it's like, I can.
I can bring it.
I can bring it.
It's like, I feel the joy of themusic.
Like, I feel the joy.
Like they, like, so oftenthey're so grateful to have me
there.
We connect.
It's like, it's such an awesomeway to connect.
(32:26):
Like, yeah, of course I want tolike hear their stories and like
know them and we all want toknow each other.
And it's like, I just loveconnecting in this way.
Like, for me, like singing withpeople, it's like, We bond, you
know, and that's, it just fillsme up.
And I, and I just trying tobring together all the other
(32:49):
people that feel that way.
Not everyone does.
And that's cool.
But like, I just, yeah, theexperience of us.
And, and I think a lot of peopledon't make time for it.
They don't understand how muchjoy and connection is there
because Singing just is reallynot a big part of our culture.
(33:13):
Like, like it used to be likewhen I was growing up, I had a
best friend who had a greatvoice and she would sing and I
would love it when she sang, youknow, just when we were doing
something, we're playing withour little trolls or, you know,
as we got older, we might bejust, you know, walking or
hanging out by a river.
Or a creek and she would startsinging and it was sweet.
(33:34):
It was just really sweet.
And I never, I didn't feel thepermission to join in just
because I didn't have the skill.
I didn't have the voice, but Ireally enjoyed it.
And I don't, I don't thinkpeople just sing.
I mean, I don't know anybodyelse that just sings, you know,
just around the house or out inthe back or in the car.
(33:56):
No, it's pretty rare.
I do, and probably other peoplein my like community singing
world do.
But it is rare and it feels likeevery time I do it, I'm like, I
feel like an outlier.
Like, I feel like I'm beingostentatious and I'm when you
say outlier, do you mean that ina good way?
(34:17):
I feel pretty good about itpersonally.
Because it's, it's an identityI've cultivated for myself.
So like when I'm playing at oneof the assisted living places or
something, like I'll, I'llsometimes start singing, like,
let's sing together.
(34:39):
Or like, I just make somethingup like about coming together
or, you know, Like I start, I,so in the songbook there's page
numbers.
So it's one of the issues a lotof time is folks can't hear the
page number or they mishear thepage number.
So I've been like singing thepage number a lot more because I
(35:00):
find that that communicates itbetter.
And I just do it.
And then sometimes people laughfor like, they think it's silly
and it's like, I'm comfortable.
Being seen that way at thispoint.
But I'm aware that that's No.
But it seems appropriate.
(35:20):
You know, there's things likewhen we're in a leadership role
like that, I was just thinkingabout this because I went to
I've been back dancing thisweek.
And so I'm thinking aboutinstructors and all the
different ways we learn and whatinstructors or leaders do.
And it's a way of accessing.
the way people learn or hear.
You singing the page numberprobably hits a different part
(35:42):
of their brain than saying it.
Yeah, seems like it.
And so in intuitively doing thatto help people doesn't seem
silly at all to me.
It seems smart.
Thanks.
But then I'm autistic.
What do I know?
I mean, they're into it.
(36:03):
Like, it's just fun.
And I mean, singing is reallyjust Like we're talking right
now, we're making tones with ourvocal cords that like have
different pitches in them, as wetalk singing is kind of, it's
just an extension of that, it'smore breath.
It's more intentional in termsof pitches and tones.
(36:26):
the more we can just get intouch with we're kind of already
doing it it's interesting havingthis conversation with you.
Cause we started with like myupbringing and living in New
York and the kind of likeclassical music worlds.
And I'm like now seeing like,wow, I think part of what I'm
doing is just like, I'm stillundoing that.
Like, I'm still just likerebelling against that.
(36:47):
Like it's okay if we're not onpitch together.
It's okay.
If, you know, it doesn't soundthe way that we think it's
supposed to sound.
That's not what it's about.
It's not what it's about.
Pursuing our passions I wouldlike to, I want to say should,
and I don't like to use the wordshould, but if there is a way to
(37:09):
pursue passions without havingall of these judgments and self
criticism come in, judgments andself criticism can be helpful to
improve what we do, you know,but if there If they're not
interpreted that way, or ifthey're not delivered in a way
that makes interpreting themthat way easy, they really do
(37:31):
get in the way.
And, and I, I just want to kindof resonate as you were talking
about this cultural attitude inNew York, you know, my dad was
from New York.
And when I was in college, Iwanted to study dance and my
mother was all in favor of, youknow, dance and art and all
that.
And dad was like, why do youwant to waste your life with
that for?
You know, like, again, the artsor anything creative wasn't seen
(37:52):
as legitimate.
And, and yet, gosh, let's honorhow we feel.
And if being creative is whatbrings us joy and what we're
meant to do, it's sad that somany people have to overcome
these judgments and it's likesquashing.
(38:15):
Of our culture.
We in this like capitalist worldthat commodifies everything and
puts us against each otherbecause there's all this
scarcity around these things,whether they're, that's real or
not created perhaps created inour minds, in this capitalist
(38:37):
society, so many of us Have tosquash that creative spark in us
in order to get by, in order to,cause, it was my dad too,
mostly, who was the force ofthat's not legitimate.
(38:57):
And only recently has he now,like in the last five years, he
now respects what I'm doing andhonors it and, and it means a
lot to me that he does that atthis point.
But I just wonder, I mean, Ifeel like that is coming from
their need.
They had to do that, right?
(39:19):
As, like, at some point in theirlife, they had to come up with
that way of structuring theirworldview in order to survive
right.
It comes from survival andprotection.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so even though the realityis like you studying dance, who
(39:40):
knows like what that would leadto, I believe that, we need to
follow our passions to theabsolute end.
And not perhaps, you know, It'snot being in the ballet of some
company or whatever, but perhapsit's something else, you know?
And what makes, what makes lifeworth living, right?
(40:02):
It's like, if spending the day,for me if spending the day
writing a song brings me joythat day, even if The next day,
nobody hears it.
I'm still really glad I did it.
And it's what I want to do.
So anyway.
And that's where it starts, thatself commitment to, to joy and
(40:27):
following your passion and yourcreativity.
Yeah.
It's nice to find other folkswho feel that too, because it's
just not, it's not the dominantparadigm.
Right.
that there's value in, in that.
But there is.
I agree.
(40:47):
This seems like a natural endingspot.
Yeah! It does.
This is the Horse HumanConnection.
A captivating podcast where weextend into the world of equine
assisted learning.
Horse Training.
and gentleness in working withthese magnificent creatures.
Captivating stories from theleading professionals and
ordinary people alike unravelnovel ideas in being with
(00:25):
horses.
The horse human connection is anidea, a place, and a voice.
The idea is to support the quietrevolution and recognize the
intelligence and true nature ofthe horse.
The place is a destination farmnear the Umpqua Forest and River
that slows down visitors andpatrons enough to experience the
(00:48):
shift.
The Voice is this podcast.
Welcome to today's episode.
Hi, I'm Ishi Abel with the HorseHuman Connection Matrix, and
today I have Katie Sontag withme, who is a singer and
(01:13):
musician, and I just want toknow a little bit more about her
journey.
So she's agreed to do aninterview with me today.
Welcome, Katie.
Thanks.
I'm really excited.
Me too.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you got started with music.
(01:34):
Well, when I was eight I, my, mymom enrolled me in a summer arts
camp and a part of the camp waslike a theater program and We
had these auditions, like Ididn't know it was an audition
when it was happening, but theyhad us all sing individually and
(01:57):
I ended up getting picked aslike Peter Pan, like the lead
role in that little like song wewere doing.
And so that was my firstexposure to like singing and,
well, I was in Like littlechoirs and stuff.
I mean, it kind of developedfrom there.
So that was my first memory oflike being seen as someone on
(02:20):
stage who has some level ofskill or that want, that people
want to see on stage and sing.
Yeah.
Like, like, like a worthiness ofan audience at eight.
Yeah.
And it was very, like, it waslike, really, I remember being
very surprised.
Like my family is not musical atall.
It's not something I grew upwith.
(02:42):
So I mean, I did grow up with itwhen I was eight, it started.
And then then pretty soon afterthat, when I was like 11, my
parents won a piano and araffle.
And so, yeah.
And so then I my babysitter liketaught me like heart and soul
and like little things likethat.
(03:03):
And I started playing and thenmy parents, my parents got me
piano lessons.
So I played classical piano witha teacher until I was 18.
And so that gave me like areally good foundation and
reading music and like beinglike music being like a personal
practice.
And that was, so my high schoolyears.
(03:24):
Had a lot of that and also beingin the musicals and taking music
theory and dating musicians andsinging a lot and being in the
choirs and like the specialacapella choirs.
And so, yeah, like it, it feltlike my childhood, like I I grew
(03:46):
up with like mentors that werewanting to help me become a
musician.
And there were also forces oflike discouragement too, which I
think is something that so manyof us have experienced as
children.
And I recently have been likereally thinking a lot more about
(04:09):
what it means to be a musicianand that we're all musicians and
that this is something that is abirthright for all of us.
And like wanting to reallyencourage all people.
To be making music and singingtogether and just wanting to be
cultivating that in ourcommunity here.
(04:29):
So did you have a lot of goalswith, like you said, you had
mentors and you were pretty muchimmersed in music and theater
and singing too.
I like the way you phrase that,that you were discouraged or
they were discouraging forces.
What, what, what were those?
Well, I think in my life it waslike, Oh, we're so glad that you
(04:56):
like to sing or so glad you liketo play.
But like, That's a hobby.
That's just for fun.
And like, I get that now as anadult and a parent.
And I think that that's reallynot what I wanted.
I wanted more than that for me.
(05:18):
So you think that they weretrying to create a buffer so you
wouldn't be disappointed if youdidn't?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I grew up in New York.
Oh, I did not know that.
Yeah, I grew up in New York inthe suburbs of New York City.
in Westchester County andthere's a lot of professional
musicians and artists in thatarea and it's like there's just
(05:44):
kind of like a different or mypersonal experience is like the
way people view the arts isreally different than here and
do they take it more seriously?
Yeah.
Is that what you mean?
That's my opinion.
Yeah.
Like, and, and like seriously,and maybe like not the most
(06:08):
positive way of, I mean, myexperience was that if it's not
classical and it's not likeperfect, then it's not, you're
not good enough.
That was sort of like themessage I received, like
ultimately, like when, when Iwas like, so I had a lot of,
(06:31):
There were like various mentorsand like encouraging adults, you
know, and then when I was like18 and it's like time to leave
the kind of like bubble of mycommunity growing up, it felt
like that disappeared.
And even within that, it's like,it was really difficult to
(06:53):
maintain a belief in myself inthat context because you know.
Like, for example, there wasthis thing called NISMA that I
remember where you go, where wewould go in and like play a
piano piece for like a judge.
And I don't remember what thejudge, who the judge was, like
(07:16):
some classical musician,probably in some orchestra.
I don't know.
And they would critique it andlike evaluate it.
And have a conversation with me.
And so I did that a few timesand I just, the nerves, the
nerves, like the nervousness ofit, and I remember that being
(07:41):
discouraged by the evaluation,like her actually saying like,
well, like, Is this really whatyou want to be doing and like
lots of judgment, lots ofjudgment.
Yeah.
Like, not like, not like this ishow you get better.
Right.
But you might not fit.
And I, it, that I got that alot.
(08:04):
I feel like I got that a lot,like in like, like eight around
18, 19, like when I was whenlike the possibility of studying
music at a college level couldhave happened.
Crucial years.
Yeah.
Crucial.
Like, yeah, exactly.
And now looking back on that, Ifeel really sad.
(08:24):
Because I made the choice atthat point to not, like, I
basically didn't, I like forgotthat I played music my whole
college, like for four years.
I just like, I didn't reallysing, didn't play.
I didn't play guitar at thatpoint yet.
Abstinence.
(08:45):
Yeah.
Because I just told myself Iwasn't good enough and it wasn't
the right thing for me to pursueand I just stopped.
Even though I remember applyingfor college and like, letting
myself have the fantasy and thethought like, could I study
music?
Like, could I?
You know and wanting that.
And then.
shutting it down.
(09:05):
And I really blame like theculture that I was of that
region in part, and that's partof why I don't live there.
Because then coming to the WestCoast, after I graduated from
college, almost immediately, myfriend, a friend I met, put a
(09:27):
guitar in my hand and taught methree chords.
And I started writing songs, youknow, and so, yeah, it was like
a total 180.
And all of that stuff about, Imean, of course I still struggle
with my not enough conditioning,for sure.
(09:48):
But so much of that went awayand, And just finding this more
heart centered way of playingand being together in music.
And it's that it's just been ajourney deeper into that ever
since then.
I think anybody that's pursuingtheir dreams bumps up against
that and how we handle it is,and how people around us, how
(10:12):
adults around us, and like youwere saying, your community and
the people that support youhandle that is, is is really
crucial and it, it can make youor, or break you or send you on
a journey to, you know, comeback to yourself.
Yeah.
I don't even know, realize likehow the, some of the very small
(10:35):
things we might say to a youngadult or even a fellow adult
who's our age, like could reallyaffect them.
Right.
Not knowing if it's I mean, it'sgood to have other perspective
for sure.
But if we could teach kids andpeople to filter best.
(10:59):
You know, what comes in likethat whole filtering process
that is part of those exercisesthat we, that we would do in
those workshops we did togetherof taking it in and is this
true?
If it's not true, is theresomething like this that people
are seeing that looks like that?
Like that's, that's such animportant skill that isn't
really part of our culture.
(11:19):
And so we hurt each other allthe time because we don't have
that inner strength.
Yeah.
Like it becomes more about like,who am I?
From seeing it from everyoneelse's eyes.
And like, instead of like, whoam I in here?
Right.
I mean, and that's normal.
I think until we're 25, we'relooking to the outside world for
(11:43):
that reflection to make senseof.
where we do fit in and who weare.
But at some point there, thereneeds to be a shift or the
solid, solidarity that happensas we grow for sure.
So the whole thing about beingfamous, did you, did you allow
yourself to dream?
(12:05):
Do you now allow yourself todream?
It's a good question.
I mean, I remember, I rememberhaving dreams when I was really
young of like, I mean, musicaltheater is a really big part of
my.
Initial love affair.
And I, and it still is,honestly, I, I love it.
(12:29):
I listen to it all the time.
And I would have like fantasiesof like being on Broadway.
When I was like eight and nineand you know, really young.
And now, yeah, I, do I let, letmyself dream about being famous?
I don't really, I mean, I have.
(12:50):
Yeah.
Obviously, and like sometimesthat comes up but it's kind of,
it feels a little too painful toreally allow that dream to
become like a goal because it'sI've, I've realized recently,
(13:12):
like maybe even in like the lastyear that my, I feel so much
better when I.
focus on what's right here infront of me and what's
accessible to me now.
And I, it's, yeah, it's sort oflike that psychological truth
that like, when we accept whatis, then like we can grow kind
(13:36):
of, it, it kind of feels likethat.
And yeah, this summer I did havesome opportunities to like
travel and lead songs in othercities.
And that was sort of like, alittle like step toward like
maybe being a little bit morewell known and it did feel
(13:56):
really good and I would like tobe more well known and and I
would like it to be easier likeI would like to write songs and
have it not be like like a laborto be heard that I, I struggle
with that.
And I'm sort of trying to see itas just like, I put one foot in
(14:17):
the of the other and like, I putout my email list at my gigs and
I get a couple extra emailsevery time I play a gig and, you
know, over time that grows and Igo to a singing event in
Pennsylvania and I, I meetpeople there and I have a good
experience and then I come homeand I'm with my daughter and
(14:37):
like, I don't know.
Yeah.
Well, I, I just, I just want tosay like, I hadn't seen you.
We reconnected last summer.
I came to one of your events andI hadn't seen you in what?
Like eight, 10 years, somethinglike that.
Wow.
Yeah.
I think it, I think it had beenthat long at 20 2016 or 2017.
(15:02):
Maybe.
And, and my experience of youwas quite different now that
you're a mother and that you'vebeen performing and just like
really come out of your shell.
And there was just so much joyand energy that radiated from
you as a performer that I, youknow, didn't see before, but of
(15:26):
course before when I saw youperform it was, you know, for a
small group of people at the endof a gathering.
It wasn't like a public eventeither where you're, where
there's a lot of projection orroom for that projection, but I
just so enjoyed being with youand how uplifting the singing
was and opening art and thecallback.
(15:46):
I am not a singer.
I, I truly do not have a goodvoice.
I think I'm tone deaf.
And yet I felt goodparticipating with what you were
doing.
It was amazing.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
I love that you felt that.
Yeah, I, I did.
And I want to say the turtlething because a long time ago,
(16:08):
and it, this, at this workshopwe were in, there's an
opportunity to give other peoplea reflection.
And the reflection I had givenyou was that I was, it was like,
you were a turtle where youwould stick your head out and,
and be all you could be.
And then you would like pulleverything back in your legs in
(16:29):
your head and just be in yourshell.
And then you would come outagain and in.
And then I remember someone elsesaying it to you too.
And when you're talking aboutthe influences that you had that
were suppressing you as youwere, you know, growing as a kid
with, with your love of thisart.
(16:50):
I can totally see where, wherethat might've come from.
And I just, I don't, I don't seeit anymore.
And that just feels feels reallyexpansive and big.
Thanks.
I it feels really awesome to getthat reflection.
It's kind of funny because whenI was in fourth grade we had a
(17:11):
school play and I told youmusical theater really
influenced me and I was aturtle.
I was actually the, I was themain turtle and I saying this
turtle song and like all, it wasthis play that someone wrote, in
the community and.
We were all animals or thesegroups of animals.
(17:32):
I the lead turtle and there wereall these other turtles who
would dance around me and Istaying in the middle and this
whole turtle song anyway.
So it's, it's very pleasing tome.
The turtle energy and, I.
understand looking back that andI might still have a little bit
of it, but honestly, like theexperience of becoming a mom,
(17:55):
has been the, the single mosttransformative experience of my
life.
Absolutely.
And I think I'm still coming.
I'm still like in that on thatpath of being birthed from that.
Because It's not just about menow, obviously.
I mean, like it ever was, butjust having her as my guiding
(18:22):
light of who do I want to be?
Who do I want to show her?
You know, what example am I toher?
Just knowing so much in my heartthat I want her to be bold and I
want her to be fully herself andembodied and confident.
And so I do that the best I can.
(18:43):
You lead by example.
It's a lot of, it is a lot ofresponsibility.
I think not enough women reallytalk about what happens in like
psychologically after givingbirth to a child.
I mean, it is so much pain.
And going through this amazing,painful, incredible experience,
(19:05):
and then having your lifecompletely changed on the other
side of it, if you're consciousabout it, it is huge.
And it is life changing.
And the responsibility thatcomes with it.
With having children that Idon't know that everybody fully
recognizes.
Yeah.
I don't think so.
Unless they have one or, or havehad one or yeah, I, I've been
(19:27):
like kind of in shock about theway our world treats this and
how different it's been from mypersonal experience.
But then when I haveconversations like this, it's
apparent that we all get it, youknow?
It's not depicted really fullyin the media.
(19:48):
It's not like when I gotpregnant and everybody says
congratulations, that's thething everybody says, like,
congratulations.
And I was just like, this feelstotally inadequate for what is
happening to me.
Like, thanks.
because it wasn't just like, Ihad a really rough pregnancy
(20:11):
where I was literally.
Puking every day.
Yeah.
Like I got a little better atone point, but it wasn't like
the typical, like, yeah, thefirst trimester is morning
sickness and then you're good.
It was not like that for me.
So it really felt like aninitiation, like literally.
(20:36):
So it was really difficult to belike, kind of just like trying
to stand.
Like every day and just liketrying to like get by and be
okay and have people be like,congratulations, like eggs, but
yeah, anyway just like all thedifferent stages of like
pregnancy, birth, postpartum andgoing through postpartum and,
(21:01):
and simultaneous to postpartumis infancy.
So like, you know, that's areally big deal to be complete,
like that's all consuming.
And so now my daughter's almostthree and I feel like I've
reached a new place where I'mcalling it in my head post
(21:22):
postpartum because I feel likepostpartum in a lot of ways was
like a death experience for me.
And like which makes sense.
Death and life, like.
You know, your old life, yourold life definitely died when
you're taking care of an infant.
There's no ability to like, takecare of myself.
(21:44):
I mean, like, this is, this isnormal.
I mean, I think if we like livedin a world where, you know,
There was like, it was, I mean,more ritual, more ritual around
and more recognition communitylike real community where it's
like, Oh, here's the like,lactating women all together,
(22:06):
you know, like I had a lot ofissues with breastfeeding that
were really upsetting to mewhere my daughter wouldn't latch
wouldn't breastfeed.
Immense amounts of shame becauseI was so set on her
breastfeeding and like, I wasliterally like every three hours
(22:27):
around the clock pumping, likepumping, pumping, pumping.
People don't probably don't evenknow what pumping is.
Pumping is when you put cups onyour boobs and you like are
milked like a cow.
Not to like, it's sacred.
It has its sacredness, you knowwhat I mean?
And it was so like, weird, youknow?
(22:51):
And so I just had thesefantasies oh, I want my
lactating women to be like,living near me.
I want to be able to them toshow me.
I had five lactation consultantsand it like didn't work.
Yeah, it was really hard.
And there's this, I hope it'sokay to go off on this, but
sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, cool.
There's what happened for us,and I think this is really
(23:14):
common is that she was born andmy milk hadn't come in.
And so there's this period oflike three to five days where
your child that you justbirthed, they need you.
So much, and she's basicallystarving, because she can't get
(23:34):
my milk.
And this is just like, proves tome that we are not living the
right way, because if we wereliving more family big family,
world, then like, there would bea woman who has her milk, who's
like, takes my baby and, and mybaby feeds, perhaps that's a
really radical idea to somepeople, To me in that moment, it
(23:57):
was like all I wanted, you know,no, this, you know, this goes
back.
I know you probably haven'tlistened to very many of my
podcasts and you're a very busywoman, but I've been on a thing
about primitive activities,primitive cultures, the
activities that happened when welived in tribes or people that
(24:18):
still live in tribes.
And there's a lot of brainhealth that.
Is neglected because of theseactivities we don't do.
There's a lot of physical healththat doesn't happen.
Like walking barefoot on theground, sitting on the ground,
cooking over a fire, being in agroup, drumming, singing
together, dancing together,walking off trail, hunting and
(24:40):
gathering all of these thingsthat, and those are just a few
of the things.
And what you're talking aboutis, you know, the shared
experience and community andcaring for.
for children that would happenin a tribal society.
Yeah.
We need, I feel like if we couldbring the, a lot of those
(25:01):
activities back into our culturesomehow.
Yeah.
Even if there's two or three ofthem and people could
participate in that, like evenjust being in the forest or at
the river or the ocean, we wouldbe so much better off.
Yeah.
And so what you're talking aboutis absolutely on topic and, you
(25:22):
know, the name of the podcastabout the horses is about
slowing down is one way to enterback into that.
And that's one of the things thehorses offer is this doorway
into slowing down enough torealize, you know, what we're
missing and pull some of thosepieces back into our culture and
(25:43):
into our lives.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As you're talking about that, itmakes me think about my love for
these singing gatherings thatI've been going to for, I mean,
some I've been going to since Icame to Oregon.
So that was part of, that'sreally part of why I've remained
(26:06):
here is this experience thatpeople have cultivated.
It's now exists, it doesn't justexist here, but there's a pretty
big strong community of peoplewho like to just gather in the
woods and sing together and sitlike and teach each other like
(26:28):
what you said you experienced atin Elkton, call and response
singing.
It's like that kind of singing,where we're, it's accessible.
It's taught orally and like,usually without written music,
even though I am a fan ofwritten music, but I think it's
really cool in this setting.
(26:49):
To me it does feel like a returnto something that my ancestors
were in touch with, that I'm noteven aware of exactly what songs
they were singing or like howthey were doing it.
But just like singing and makingmusic as like.
Yeah, a way to connect and bepresent and in community and,
(27:12):
and connect to that primal.
From a very somatic experienceof like, like being involved
versus being the audience howthat felt in my body and my
heart opening and, and theconnection.
It feels like a very spiritual,sacred thing and so missing and
(27:34):
such a different experience thansinging where there's so much
judgment, especially since it'snot something that's in my
skillset, you know, I'm muchmore comfortable dancing than I
am singing.
That there's, acceptance of itand participation and joining.
(27:56):
That's exactly what I'm tryingto create.
So I'm really glad youexperienced that.
Yeah.
And I'm really glad you'recreating it because it's so
important and so healing.
Yeah.
Way better than being famous.
Although I hope you get to befamous too.
Yeah, it's yeah, I think maybebeing famous is overrated.
(28:19):
I mean, it seems like a lot ofpeople who are famous, at a
certain level are not doing wellpsychologically.
I, it's so nourishing for me tobe in a situation where people
are singing with me.
So I do what we're talkingabout, the community singing.
(28:39):
And also I, what I do like 10times a week is I go to
residential care facilities andI lead sing alongs with the
patients there.
And that's also reallynourishing in like a totally
different way because we're,we're doing I have a song book
(29:04):
of 120 covers.
I let them choose usually, andwe do songs that they know, a
lot of them from theirchildhood.
And just try, so I just try tomake it as inclusive as
possible.
And like, yeah, hope that theyget that same, that same
(29:30):
quality.
I bet there's so many healthbenefits to what you're doing
too.
I wish somebody would do athesis on that and do some
measuring and some non profitwould coordinate it and pay for
it.
And I mean, there's so manystudies like that, that we could
be doing that.
Once there's clinical evidencethat things are working, there's
more funding for it, you know,and that means it spreads.
(29:53):
And unfortunately I mean, it'sgreat when things can just be
organic and volunteer based.
But in our culture, people,people, I would like to see
people get paid for doingvaluable work that makes a
measurable difference.
That I know right now is makinga measurable difference, but
nobody's measuring it.
I, I truly am not educated aboutthat.
(30:17):
The studies, but I thinkthere've been some studies, it's
just not my expertise.
Years ago when I, when I was 38,I was in the nursing program and
I had to do a research paper andI did it on aging.
And I had one peer reviewedarticle back then where peer
(30:38):
reviewed articles were stillvery respected that talked
about.
In a retirement home, they justhad people have pictures of
themselves as younger peopleout.
And I think they even wore abadge of themselves younger,
like around their neck.
And they measured theinteractions and they played
music from the decades thatthose people were teenagers and
(31:00):
they did do some measuring andit just the pictures of the
music had a huge effect.
Wow.
So yeah, I'm sure there's morestudies out there too.
I don't know what they are,Yeah.
That's really interesting.
Yeah, I feel like our, we don'tvalue aging in the way that I
think would help all of us andbenefit all of us and us as
(31:24):
aging people and also us asneeding the wisdom of all the
ages, you know?
So yeah, I just do my best.
When I'm there to, yeah, treatevery person like they have
something to offer me.
(31:44):
I have something to offer themand It's really joyful in that
way.
Like I kind of see myself aslike a joy bringer, which
sometimes is difficult when I'mnot feeling joyful, you know,
and I and like but Somehow it'slike if I'm having a bad day,
(32:05):
I'm tired Whatever, like, I walkin there and it's like, I can.
I can bring it.
I can bring it.
It's like, I feel the joy of themusic.
Like, I feel the joy.
Like they, like, so oftenthey're so grateful to have me
there.
We connect.
It's like, it's such an awesomeway to connect.
(32:26):
Like, yeah, of course I want tolike hear their stories and like
know them and we all want toknow each other.
And it's like, I just loveconnecting in this way.
Like, for me, like singing withpeople, it's like, We bond, you
know, and that's, it just fillsme up.
And I, and I just trying tobring together all the other
(32:49):
people that feel that way.
Not everyone does.
And that's cool.
But like, I just, yeah, theexperience of us.
And, and I think a lot of peopledon't make time for it.
They don't understand how muchjoy and connection is there
because Singing just is reallynot a big part of our culture.
(33:13):
Like, like it used to be likewhen I was growing up, I had a
best friend who had a greatvoice and she would sing and I
would love it when she sang, youknow, just when we were doing
something, we're playing withour little trolls or, you know,
as we got older, we might bejust, you know, walking or
hanging out by a river.
Or a creek and she would startsinging and it was sweet.
(33:34):
It was just really sweet.
And I never, I didn't feel thepermission to join in just
because I didn't have the skill.
I didn't have the voice, but Ireally enjoyed it.
And I don't, I don't thinkpeople just sing.
I mean, I don't know anybodyelse that just sings, you know,
just around the house or out inthe back or in the car.
(33:56):
No, it's pretty rare.
I do, and probably other peoplein my like community singing
world do.
But it is rare and it feels likeevery time I do it, I'm like, I
feel like an outlier.
Like, I feel like I'm beingostentatious and I'm when you
say outlier, do you mean that ina good way?
(34:17):
I feel pretty good about itpersonally.
Because it's, it's an identityI've cultivated for myself.
So like when I'm playing at oneof the assisted living places or
something, like I'll, I'llsometimes start singing, like,
let's sing together.
(34:39):
Or like, I just make somethingup like about coming together
or, you know, Like I start, I,so in the songbook there's page
numbers.
So it's one of the issues a lotof time is folks can't hear the
page number or they mishear thepage number.
So I've been like singing thepage number a lot more because I
(35:00):
find that that communicates itbetter.
And I just do it.
And then sometimes people laughfor like, they think it's silly
and it's like, I'm comfortable.
Being seen that way at thispoint.
But I'm aware that that's No.
But it seems appropriate.
(35:20):
You know, there's things likewhen we're in a leadership role
like that, I was just thinkingabout this because I went to
I've been back dancing thisweek.
And so I'm thinking aboutinstructors and all the
different ways we learn and whatinstructors or leaders do.
And it's a way of accessing.
the way people learn or hear.
You singing the page numberprobably hits a different part
(35:42):
of their brain than saying it.
Yeah, seems like it.
And so in intuitively doing thatto help people doesn't seem
silly at all to me.
It seems smart.
Thanks.
But then I'm autistic.
What do I know?
I mean, they're into it.
(36:03):
Like, it's just fun.
And I mean, singing is reallyjust Like we're talking right
now, we're making tones with ourvocal cords that like have
different pitches in them, as wetalk singing is kind of, it's
just an extension of that, it'smore breath.
It's more intentional in termsof pitches and tones.
(36:26):
the more we can just get intouch with we're kind of already
doing it it's interesting havingthis conversation with you.
Cause we started with like myupbringing and living in New
York and the kind of likeclassical music worlds.
And I'm like now seeing like,wow, I think part of what I'm
doing is just like, I'm stillundoing that.
Like, I'm still just likerebelling against that.
(36:47):
Like it's okay if we're not onpitch together.
It's okay.
If, you know, it doesn't soundthe way that we think it's
supposed to sound.
That's not what it's about.
It's not what it's about.
Pursuing our passions I wouldlike to, I want to say should,
and I don't like to use the wordshould, but if there is a way to
(37:09):
pursue passions without havingall of these judgments and self
criticism come in, judgments andself criticism can be helpful to
improve what we do, you know,but if there If they're not
interpreted that way, or ifthey're not delivered in a way
that makes interpreting themthat way easy, they really do
(37:31):
get in the way.
And, and I, I just want to kindof resonate as you were talking
about this cultural attitude inNew York, you know, my dad was
from New York.
And when I was in college, Iwanted to study dance and my
mother was all in favor of, youknow, dance and art and all
that.
And dad was like, why do youwant to waste your life with
that for?
You know, like, again, the artsor anything creative wasn't seen
(37:52):
as legitimate.
And, and yet, gosh, let's honorhow we feel.
And if being creative is whatbrings us joy and what we're
meant to do, it's sad that somany people have to overcome
these judgments and it's likesquashing.
(38:15):
Of our culture.
We in this like capitalist worldthat commodifies everything and
puts us against each otherbecause there's all this
scarcity around these things,whether they're, that's real or
not created perhaps created inour minds, in this capitalist
(38:37):
society, so many of us Have tosquash that creative spark in us
in order to get by, in order to,cause, it was my dad too,
mostly, who was the force ofthat's not legitimate.
(38:57):
And only recently has he now,like in the last five years, he
now respects what I'm doing andhonors it and, and it means a
lot to me that he does that atthis point.
But I just wonder, I mean, Ifeel like that is coming from
their need.
They had to do that, right?
(39:19):
As, like, at some point in theirlife, they had to come up with
that way of structuring theirworldview in order to survive
right.
It comes from survival andprotection.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so even though the realityis like you studying dance, who
(39:40):
knows like what that would leadto, I believe that, we need to
follow our passions to theabsolute end.
And not perhaps, you know, It'snot being in the ballet of some
company or whatever, but perhapsit's something else, you know?
And what makes, what makes lifeworth living, right?
(40:02):
It's like, if spending the day,for me if spending the day
writing a song brings me joythat day, even if The next day,
nobody hears it.
I'm still really glad I did it.
And it's what I want to do.
So anyway.
And that's where it starts, thatself commitment to, to joy and
(40:27):
following your passion and yourcreativity.
Yeah.
It's nice to find other folkswho feel that too, because it's
just not, it's not the dominantparadigm.
Right.
that there's value in, in that.
But there is.
I agree.
(40:47):
This seems like a natural endingspot.
Yeah! It does.
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