May 25, 2025 • 47 mins
https://getgroundedequine.com/
Kimberly is well known trainer and breeder of Fell Ponies and other breeds in the PNW. Trainers here on the West Coast are embracing "The Quiet Revolution" with open hearts and heads.
Unpacking issues in training and psychology like: threshold, regulation, and the use of round pens and animal communication/communicators are themes that come up in this and the next couple Podcast in this Series on "Charlie Bucks"-
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi, I am Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix,
and I am so happy to haveKimberly Dunn of Get Grounded
here with me today to helpprocess some of my last episode
and the dilemma of how we walkthe line with horse training and
honoring the horse and whathappens when that doesn't go so
(00:22):
well and all the differentlayers that go along with it.
Thanks for being here, Kimberly.
My pleasure.
It's, it's great to chat again,Ishi.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Always a pleasure to see you.
So what, what do you have for meafter watching that?
Wow.
Well, you know, the number onething that hits home for me
because I am a foundationrelationship-based trainer.
(00:45):
Mm-hmm.
Is this, this change that'scoming and being in the middle
of that I get hit with it dailyas not only do I train my own
projects, but I'm training forother people.
Mm-hmm.
And, these old ways, which arenow becoming antiquated.
(01:09):
Yeah.
Is something I'm always upagainst because I do my best to
put the time to build therelationship with the horse and
the foundation, and I let thehorse direct that journey.
So the horse is the number onevoice about how fast we go.
(01:31):
How much do we a accomplish in aday?
You know, that's all horsedirected.
And I utilize feedback loops totell me how much can the horse
chew today.
And, as well as reflection wheremaybe I asked too much today and
maybe I didn't set the horse upfor success.
(01:54):
Which is something we all do,right?
We're all trying to navigatethat of where do we go with the
horse that feels honorable,ethical doesn't compromise who
we believe we are and want tobe.
And we're not asking the horseto be compromised as well.
(02:16):
Mm-hmm.
So with that comes a whole shiftchange for me in method, you
know, so you brought up in yourvideo about natural horsemanship
methods and how there can, eventhough it sounds like the nicest
approach mm-hmm.
I'm not out to try to dig amethod.
However, there are componentswith that method that override.
(02:41):
What is being true to ourselvesand true to the horse, and we
have to acknowledge that.
I just wanna say that, that,that, that what you just said
has been echoed many placesrecently, like I'm hearing that
all over the place.
So we're not, we're not alone incoming to that conclusion.
Right.
Right.
(03:02):
Let's talk about though, why isthat so if you think
historically, just talkingreally generally, historically,
you know, our ancestors'relationship with horses was
surrounding utility.
Right?
We needed the horse to survive.
The horse provided the abilityfor us to do so many things in
(03:23):
our daily life.
Mm-hmm.
Well.
There are lots of technicalreplacements for that kind of
relationship.
But a remnant of the mindsetstill exists, right?
And so what we kind of see inequine community is this mindset
of the horse still is here forus.
(03:46):
So what is that for us about?
Well, it seems now it's moreabout entertainment, recreation.
Sport, you know,competitiveness.
So really the, the grand mindsethasn't changed much for, for a
huge part of the equinecommunity, whereas it's, it's
(04:10):
about the horses providingsomething for us.
And I think most people wouldagree, yeah, we have to take
care of our equines, but.
What is the level of that care?
And it seems to be the biggestfault is lack of acknowledgement
of emotional regulation.
(04:32):
So for me now, even as afoundation trainer, I see the
number one priority is.
My self-awareness and myemotional regulation and then
helping the horse to learn howto emotionally regulate in the
context in the world that I keepasking that horse to be with me.
(04:55):
Mm-hmm.
And with me.
So that's a huge mind shift,right?
But how I approach now.
Shaping behavior and reinforcingbehavior to a high rate of
reliability.
I won't compromise my integrityof that.
(05:19):
The horse directs that path andthey have to own it.
And when you have experienceafter experience, like I have
now for many years where I'velet the horse own it.
Find pathways for them owningthe experience.
(05:40):
It's kind of comparable to whenyou've had a homemade dark
chocolate truffle and you'llprobably never eat Hershey's
chocolate ever again.
Right, right.
So these experiences now, whenI've shifted my mindset, which
affected my agenda.
(06:01):
Both small agendas that happendaily as well as the grand
agendas of what I want toaccomplish.
I have to have patience and berespectful of what the horse is
telling me.
At the individual level so thatI can meet their needs, meet
them where they're at.
(06:22):
Mm-hmm.
To help shape that, thatbehavior.
So let me just get a little bitmore clear about some of what
you're talking about, where youare letting the horse dictate it
or set, set the pace, set.
Some of the, the learning are wetalking about like this term
I've heard a lot recently too,is habitation and, and that's
(06:43):
what we're, what we're doing.
We're creating theseneuropathways in the horse by
training and again and againthat create less reactivity and
more regulation throughhabituation.
Is that, is that how you wouldsay it?
Correct.
So I noticed when you werespeaking in your video, you
talked about yourself in yourjourney about being on the
(07:06):
spectrum, that you became awareof memory chains.
Mm-hmm.
So that's really what, how I seemyself when I am.
Wanting to create a high rate ofreliability with a behavior
mm-hmm.
Is I'm tapping into what thehorse does automatically, which
is very autistic, which isbuilding memory chains.
(07:28):
Mm-hmm.
So I utilize sequence patternsmm-hmm.
That help the horse develop andunderstand.
The outcomes of things as wellas for lack of better term,
trigger, trigger can be used ina negative way.
(07:50):
It can be used in a positiveway.
Mm-hmm.
But to trigger a sequence ofevents that the horse is willing
to offer.
And so where a lot of peoplestart out with a q.
And then they use all thispressure and release or, or
dominance or force for the horseto guess what that cue means.
(08:15):
And giving a release of pressureor a release of dominance or a
moment of rest is supposed to bethe way that the horse will
learn to repeat that behavior,right?
Where I found if you tap into.
A positive motivator and youdial into that innate quality
(08:40):
where the horse is seeking acertain outcome.
Mm-hmm.
You can start shaping it througha memory chain like you talked
about, or I call a sequencepattern.
Sequence pattern.
Okay, that makes sense.
Sequence pattern, events.
So the horse learns I'm apredictable person.
(09:02):
They learn reliability.
I become something that theyknow.
I will show them what is thebeginning of the pattern.
Mm-hmm.
And they know where we will endtogether with impact.
Can, can you gimme an i i Idescribed for people, I, I think
I have an idea'cause I've comeand, and worked with you a
(09:22):
little bit a couple of times,but what is the pattern and can
you speak to what happensemotionally with you and the
horse while you're creating thispattern?
And how is that related?
Yeah.
So the process quite often, Icall it deconstruction.
So if we wanna go back realquick remember I was talking
(09:42):
about the mindset mm-hmm.
Of mainstream equine world isproduct oriented.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So they're, they're wanting in30 to 60 days, they want walk
tri canner, both directionspicking up correct leads.
Right.
And so there's this mindset ofall these, we have to have
(10:04):
these.
My milestones accomplished by acertain amount of time.
And if we, if we think moreabout process, process oriented
work with our horses rather thanproduct.
Mm-hmm.
And we can start deconstructing.
(10:25):
What is the end thing we'relooking for?
And then if I start going, okay,what does that all look like in
terms of what am I doing with mybody through each step?
What does the horse need to dowith their body, with each step?
Mm-hmm.
And the horse memorizes that.
Mm-hmm.
Through a positive motivator.
(10:46):
So deconstruction, for example,let's just talk about something
where we need to be able to walkup to a horse or i'll, I'll
extract the word need.
Many of us want to be able towalk up to a horse with a piece
of tack and put it on theirbodies, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if I think about how do Iwant to have a horse understand
(11:09):
that whole experience wheresomething inanimate is connected
to their body?
And they're going to feel itthrough their body and they may
feel me through that piece ofequipment.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm already starting to thinkabout it.
In a deconstructed way.
(11:30):
So I'm gonna break it down intothe steps, right?
So the first thing, what do Ineed to know?
I need to know that this horseis gonna be okay if I start
approaching them.
So I'm giving them eye contact,I'm walking towards them in a
direct way, and I have somethingin my hands, right?
(11:50):
Mm-hmm.
So that.
That might be something I startto deconstruct all the way to my
approach.
No equipment.
I'm just going to approach andretreat, approach, touch and
retreat approach, touch somemore and retreat, then I might
(12:12):
start adding the object, right?
Mm-hmm.
And all the while through this,I'm looking for the feedback.
Is it okay for me to add more?
So what the horse begins tolearn is Kimberly is this source
that helps me find end goals Ilike.
(12:34):
Mm-hmm.
Through positive motivators.
And she's going to always createthese patterns of things that
happen.
Mm-hmm.
And she builds on them.
So it's.
It's a lot like math, right?
So whatever I deconstruct in anevent or an activity, I start
(12:56):
out.
Simple.
And then I add more and I addmore and I add more.
Always getting feedback.
Can I add more today?
So you're break breaking it intolittle tiny steps.
Correct.
And little tiny intentions likeYes.
The whole thing about likegetting a horse in the trailer
(13:17):
starts with lifting one hoof.
Right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And.
Allowing the horse to give you alot of feedback and that they
know they're, you're gonnareally listen to what they think
about what you just showed themor introduced to them.
Creating trust you.
(13:39):
You're creating trust.
And when they tell you, no,that's enough for today, you
honor that.
Quite often, almost always, thenext time they're like, I'm
ready for you to add more.
But they learn.
This predictable pattern processwith you.
(14:01):
So I wanna jump to the video fora second.
'cause there's there it seemsthe more that I process this and
the more that I think about it,I think the main problem that
happened was I.
I had established acommunication with the horse
that if he needed me to get off,he would touch my boot with his
nose.
Yes.
Rather than try to buck a humanoff.
(14:21):
And we did a couple sessionswith animal communicators even.
And when I was working with thistrailer trainer, I explained
that to her, but when he wasdown at her place a couple of
times, she was able to navigateor push through that in a
different way, creating a neuropathway in her head that said,
oh, he doesn't really mean it.
(14:44):
Right.
So it's over overriding Uhhuh,the voice of the horse.
And it always ends up insomething unsafe.
Yeah.
Or it ends up in the horselearning coping mechanisms that
don't benefit them.
You talked about Csy being achecked out mare in your video
Yeah.
When I got her.
Yeah.
Right.
And she learned most likely thatas a coping mechanism mm-hmm.
(15:08):
To whatever stimulus.
That overrode her communicationof you've overwhelmed me, you've
taken me over threshold.
Mm-hmm.
I don't understand this.
And you know, some horses willbe like Charlie, who say, you
didn't listen to me.
So now I just have to speaklouder and be an asshole mm-hmm.
(15:30):
While I speak.
And other horses will figure outa coping mechanism where they
just check out and they're notreally present.
The thing about horses like Cypse is a lot of people think that
they have accomplishedsomething.
Yeah.
They've taught a horse to checkout.
(15:50):
And when you have a lot ofexperiences working with horses
and riding horses through arelationship based mode where
you honor the voice of the horseand everything becomes, very
communicative.
There's a lot of conversationgoing on.
When you go and ride a checkedout horse, it's an incredibly
(16:14):
unsettling feeling.
Yeah.
For me.
Yeah.
So, get me back on trackbecause, okay.
Alright.
So I feel like on a bunny allthis stuff is, is very pertinent
to it.
It, it is.
But so I, I guess I have that.
I have some guilt around themoment when I could see them
(16:37):
escalating up on top of the hilland turning in circles and he
put his nose on her boot andthen looked at me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like in that moment, Isaid something, but I wasn't.
Forceful enough, you know, Isaid, how about you get off him
and come ride Sipsy and let mewalk him for a while.
(16:58):
And when she disagreed with me,I should have said, no, it's
time to get off.
But it's that line.
And you know, like maybe this issomething to speak to too.
I mean.
It probably doesn't happen withyou'cause you're a trainer who,
who knows what you're doing whenyou take on a horse for someone
else.
There may be negotiations withthat person.
There may be needing to educatethat person as to what you're
(17:21):
doing.
But maybe a broader, like tozoom out because there, there
are many different sides to thisequation is like, how do we
navigate our intuition with ourhorses when they're at a
trainer?
And yeah, the trainer'sresponsibilities there and their
competence level.
(17:42):
Yeah.
The, that whole scene the hillscene with the two horses and
you are with a trainer.
There are so many things wecould talk about.
But I get a sense that it'sfitting to point out, let's
think about the power we give.
Our trainers and our teachers.
(18:04):
One thing we have to acknowledgeis in the equine community,
there is potential for a lot ofbullying and ego tripping.
And this, I'm not trying tospeak against your trainer at
all.
I'm speaking more about in ageneral sense.
(18:27):
We as horse owners who areultimately responsible for the
future, the welfare, theemotional wellbeing of our
equines, it's common practicefor us to hand them over to a
professional and then feelinglike we are limited in our power
to be the voice.
(18:48):
For that horse.
And so that is something thatneeds to be resolved and needs
to be figured out becausetrainers are not ultimate
authorities.
TR trainers are they, they makemistakes and giving them
unilateral decision making andsub.
(19:10):
Subjecting yourself to whateverthey say is, is biblical is a
dangerous thing.
I've had many clients who I hadto do equine related trauma
therapy with mm-hmm.
Rebuilding their confidencebecause they were directly hurt
(19:32):
by the decisions made by atrainer.
Hurt by the horse, by thedecision hurt by the horse of a
trainer, hurt by the horse.
Correct.
Which destroys all trust inrelationship every which way it
does.
Wow.
It does.
So this notion and it goes backto that mindset of we're in this
(19:52):
world where horses are, areentertainment, they're our
recreation and they're oursport.
Creates this, this sense of,well, I have this equine and I'm
gonna give it to a trainer andwhen it comes back it's gonna
meet my needs.
And there's littleaccountability.
(20:14):
Mm-hmm.
Or responsibility with the ownerthat they have to be very
proactive.
Quite often they're getting backgreen horses.
But in your situation, youtalked about Ypsi who had had a
lot of groundwork, a lot oftraining.
She went for finish work and youended up two or three steps back
(20:34):
and you talked almost at thebeginning.
Yeah.
You talked about having to goback to groundwork and it took
you a year, a whole year tobuild back trust where I could,
where I could even start writingher again and yeah.
And so, I mean, that's a wholetopic there that you know,
horses going from trainers topeople.
(20:58):
And so that's about horses goingfrom one skill set.
One ability to manage behavior,be it the right way or the wrong
way to manage behavior,behavior's, being managed and
then going into a scenario whereyou have people who think it's
transferable and all I need toknow is I.
(21:19):
How to use the aid or how topush the button.
And I don't need to consideremotional regulation or what the
horse is telling me.
I don't need to consider thatmaybe context that I'm creating
is way different than contextthat the trainer created, you
know, all of these things.
So really there's a whole topicthat could be, you could do a
(21:43):
whole series on trainer.
Owner relationships, thatdynamic, that power dynamic in a
way where we can empower horseowners more to expect, that this
is a team effort, you know, soit, what what's occurring to me
as you talk is like the journeythat I've been on, you know,
(22:05):
that parallels a lot ofjourneys.
People have, have been on withthis and, and this place where a
lot of ho horse owners are,where they want their horse to
be further trained and don'thave the ability to do it
themselves.
It, it's almost as if, it'salmost as if we've been doing
the whole thing wrong.
And the potentiality forteaching horse ship, which is my
(22:29):
new word the relationship with ahorse encompasses training,
encompasses behavior,encompasses self-regulation, and
emotional processing of theperson, which could be pretty
heavy therapy.
Yeah.
And, and that this is, this isreally what horses are offering
is this package.
(22:50):
And up till now we've only likeplayed with little pits of the
package and, and it's, it's nota hole, like, like holistic
horse ship.
And I'm, I'm just thinking aboutthis as I'm talking, it's all
forming in my mouth like rightnow, real time as if we were to
offer a package that washolistic horse ship.
(23:13):
It would involve all of thosethings and it would require the
teachings that only a very fewpeople have the awareness of
today.
Right.
But that's kind of what thequiet revolution might be about.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, I, in addition totraining, I do mentorships.
Mm-hmm.
And quite often.
(23:38):
What I see is lacking withpeople who have horses is a lot
of skill in observation.
Mm-hmm.
And then interpreting what theysee.
Mm-hmm.
And this speaks to all of theseestablished narratives that
quite often are formulated onthis.
(24:01):
We have this duality, we havethis.
Conflict and that requires some,one of the individuals to speak
louder and be more dominant.
Mm-hmm.
To, to convince the, the subjectthat they must comply rather
(24:23):
than going, okay, I have thishorse now that I'm gonna form
this relationship with.
Where the horse is gonna teachme how to really pay attention,
how to pay attention to them ina meaningful way, and how to pay
better attention to myself.
So I have a practice quite oftenwith new students where we just
(24:47):
spend a lot of time observingand we call out observations and
then we try to find patterns.
With what we're observing.
And it's not okay to come upwith, with a narrative.
It's not okay to come up with aconclusion.
'Cause what happens I find a lotof times is people see behavior
and they wanna create a story toexplain the behavior they see.
(25:12):
And so they'll create anarrative quite often when you
do that too early.
You don't test your theoriesabout what you're seeing which
might mean changing contextchanging equipment, changing
what you're doing before youcome to a conclusion.
But what happens is people cometo a conclusion too early and
(25:34):
then what happens next?
They formulate a plan.
So formulating a plan based on afalse conclusion, where are you
gonna end up?
Not where you wanna be.
For sure.
Exactly.
So that's, that's huge.
That's important.
And that's why I try to keeppeople on the ground with their
(25:55):
two feet on the ground, moreinteractive, moving, figuring
out how to move together withthe horse in, in a synchronized
way.
Works on all of those skillsthat we need to develop.
This really lacking.
Even with a lot of professionaltrainers, I see it lacking.
(26:17):
Yeah.
So, but when you start gettinginto that kinda work mm-hmm.
You kinda wanna stay there, youknow?
'cause you ask the question, doI really wanna ride anymore?
Yeah.
And I'll be one that says, younever have to ride again.
I don't care if you ever ride ahorse.
What I care about.
(26:38):
Is how you spend time with ahorse is mutually meaningful for
the best.
Yes.
And if I could ride and have itbe mutually meaningful, I would
do that.
But I've had very fewexperiences outside of the ranch
or outside of riding withsomeone like you or Carissa,
(27:00):
where it is meaningful.
And that just may speak to my.
Un expertise in, in riding andthe journey that I've been on to
learn a lot of this stuff.
You know, the co-created ridesthat I would have at the ranch
that were not, that, where I hadno agenda and the horses took me
along.
(27:20):
Yes.
And you know, we were on 200acres with a perimeter fence
where we could, we could dothat.
They live there.
They know there.
Those were meaningful sitting inthe round pen with the horses
and the musical instrumentsearlier that week, that was
meaningful.
Horse hiking has beenmeaningful.
Yeah.
I do not want to be in aposition again where I need to
(27:42):
make my horse go up this fourfoot dirt embankment because she
just told me no.
I, I don't wanna do thatanymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it when, like I said, itgoes back to that chocolate
analogy, you know, once you'vetasted something that's really,
really good.
Yeah.
And really speaks, feeds yoursoul, speaks to your heart.
(28:05):
It's hard to do that otherstuff.
It's really hard.
Yeah.
And you know, I have clients whocome to me who have agendas
mm-hmm.
With their horses and quiteoften I'm thinking missing out.
From my perspective there,you're missing out on what this
is all about.
(28:25):
Because we don't need them forthese things.
We don't need them to winribbons.
Mm-hmm.
Can it be fun?
Absolutely.
Can people go and do events andhave fun with their horse?
Absolutely.
But there's too much focus onthe ribbon.
There's too much focus on thecompetition.
There's too much focus on.
(28:46):
That product and noacknowledgement of the process
and how that's just the space tobe where there's the peace,
there's the joy, the delight.
I moved to a rapport buildingmodel now where I work at
Liberty.
Mm-hmm.
And I use a positivereinforcement model.
(29:09):
So I'm setting up a mindset.
In the beginning with the horsewhere they see if they can pay
attention to their themselvesand to me and my influence it
will end in a positive outcome.
And that mode I can be thereforever with the horse because.
(29:32):
It becomes this, this processwhere I can ask the horse, are
you paying attention to when mytoe is pointed this way, or when
my toe is pointed that way andthey can show me.
Yeah.
I'm paying attention to that.
And so all these opportunitieswhere the horse gets to freely
(29:53):
show me their level ofawareness.
Mm-hmm.
Their intelligence in solving aproblem.
Mm-hmm.
Just through this utilization ofa positive motivator which is
tapping into innate seeking,which we all do, you know it's,
it's just a beautiful place tobe and it feels so good.
(30:16):
It keeps me on my two feet.
Way longer than most people whoare focused on, we gotta get'em
walk truck canner in, you know,in both directions.
Some of my horses that I dofoundation relationship training
on mm-hmm.
They're not picking up thecanner for a year.
Yeah.
What's the hurry?
And then I see people who've got'em, you know, they threw all
(30:39):
the equipment on'em at once.
They hopped on'em in a round penand first or second ride,
they're doing all three gates.
And you can see the horse islike, holy crud, am I
overstimulated?
Am I overwhelmed?
And it just, it's overridden.
Yeah.
You know, there, there, there's,that's just an experience I've
abandoned.
I have no interest in thatanymore and I'm hoping that
(31:03):
other people I.
Will feel comfortable movinginto that space.
That's just, that just is, youknow, you talked about being for
hours.
Mm-hmm.
In a round pen, in a differentway.
You know, you're, you're sort ofrepurposing the, the round pen.
And I love that.
(31:23):
We see round pens, you know, alot of people will build them
with solid high walls.
Mm-hmm.
You know why?
Because the pressure load isgonna be so over the top,
there's a risk that that horseis gonna go up and over or try
to go through.
And it, it adds this emphasis ofdemand.
(31:44):
You must focus on me.
So I have a round pen.
Mm-hmm.
And it's three strands ofelectrical tape that are not
even electrified.
And I know when I take my horseinto a round pen that I have to
be very well aware of mypressure, the amount of pressure
(32:06):
I put on that animal, becausethey will go through it.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm more impressed withtaking a horse into that space
where there is no escape.
You know, if we're asking ahorse to move in a round pen
through pressure.
It's not natural because horseswill tell other horses to move.
(32:30):
There's a way out, and once thatother horse is far enough away
mm-hmm.
And has moved according to thedirection of another horse, then
pressure is done and over with.
But the round pen scenario, theold way of utilizing a round pen
mm-hmm.
Doesn't give any release.
Really?
No.
(32:50):
Just a place for the horse togo.
Right.
Right.
And I mean two, you know, twothings occur to me as you're
talking about that and you're,you're absolutely right about
like how we use round pens.
And the image that came into myhead as you're talking about
that, is when I'm in the roundpen with them doing, you know,
therapy type work or justhanging out with no intention,
(33:13):
sometimes a horse will go andstand at the gate and bump the
gate.
Yes, you can go out.
They, they're just, they'reasking and they're there.
I mean, they're enclosed inthere, but they also know that
if they ask to go out, they willbe let out.
And the exercise that, you know,Monty Roberts came up with that
(33:33):
is so everywhere in horsetraining.
I, I've seen a softer version ofthat in pastures where people
will just.
I'm curious about yourconclusions about this because
it is about less pressure, butit also is about some horse
behavior is they will go to thehorse where the horse is
standing in the pasture and takeup that space and the horse will
(33:55):
move and then they will walk towhere the horse is and they will
take up that space and the horsewill move somewhere else.
And usually about the thirdtime, the horse will start
following them around.
Just like what happens in Joinit, but it's a much softer
version.
Have you seen that?
Do, what do you think aboutthat?
I don't see any problems withthat.
I think working in a largerspace is more ideal that offers
(34:20):
the horse the ability to giveyou feedback by responding.
Mm-hmm.
So working at Liberty, yes.
Quite often in my arena when I'mworking at Liberty, I'll have, I
have gates at each end.
Mm-hmm.
And I'll leave them open.
One opens into a courtyard, oneopens into a small pasture, and
(34:41):
those gates are open.
And so if the horse chooses todisengage or if they need to
step out to just check on whereare the other horses or
whatever, and come back.
Mm-hmm.
That gives me valuableinformation about what they
think about me.
What I'm doing and what I'moffering.
Wow.
So, yeah.
So that's huge.
(35:01):
Like, that's such a huge novelthing.
Like that's amazing.
Yeah, it is.
Because I, I'm not looking for afalse sense that a horse wants
to be with me.
If, if the horse blocks away andsays, you're not that
interesting today, and I've gotother things on my mind, or I'm
(35:22):
unsure about you, so I need toget away from you, I wanna know
that because I want thechallenge of, well, what do I
need to change about myself tobe more appealing?
And or what is it about thecontext I've asked them to be in
that's concerning to them?
So that, that brings up an, animportant point from what
(35:43):
happened to me and, and how andwhy I brought in my own personal
you know, where I was in themidst of my EMDR with this
issue.
I mean, like, it was, it wasrepeating itself, I felt like
most of the time.
My regulation was okay.
Although I had that fear, like Ihad that fear about me getting
(36:04):
on Charlie that I couldn't eventapping it, even like honoring
it, even like sitting with it.
It, it would go away and itwould come back, it would go
away and it would come back andit turned out to be, there was
something very real to be afraidabout.
But my, you know, like how are,I guess a big part of this is
(36:25):
how.
The owner or the trainer'semotional state affects what's
happening with the horse.
And I guess the idea of like,what do we do about that is so
wide, how do we navigate that?
That's a huge question becauseit's so individual, but it's
(36:45):
also super pertinent to whatwe're talking about and to the
idea that there could be, youknow, a real.
Holistic horses because that's abig part of it.
Right.
Right.
Well talking about youremotional state and your
(37:05):
emotions related to yourconfidence mm-hmm.
With him.
And whether he can sense that ornot.
I would say yes.
Even if it's just at thephysical level, because you
know, if you're in a state ofnot feeling fully safe or
comfortable mm-hmm.
You're gonna release certainchemicals and you're gonna smell
(37:26):
a certain way.
Your heart rate is gonna docertain things, you know, your
whole nervous system isaffected.
Mm-hmm.
And what people don't realize ishorses can memorize a moment in
time.
Kind of almost likemulti-dimensionally, where quite
often we rely on the visuals orwhat we hear in a moment to
(37:52):
remember it.
Mm-hmm.
They're able to fully assesstheir body in terms of position.
What they're doing with theirbody, what they're doing in
their body, in relationship towhatever else is around.
But they're also taking up noteson you.
(38:14):
What's your nervous system likeright now?
How do you smell?
There could be body gestures,expressions that you're
conveying when you're in thatstate.
They're picking up on that.
And so these are the thingsthat.
Are not being addressed or givenenough time and space that is
(38:34):
lending to disconnect betweenhorses and humans, which in turn
leads to dangerous situations.
Speaking of dangerous situationslike moving forward.
What would you say about, like,I have, I, I've hung out with
him in his, in his barnyard.
(38:55):
I haven't put him back in the,no, I did put him back in the
brown, in the, in the round pen.
We actually did a a coachingsession with someone and he's
been, he's been great with me onthe ground and, and it doesn't
seem like I don't see theeffects of what happened, but I
also haven't tried to put asaddle on him.
Is he, is he trainable?
I, I mean, is he, of course he'strainable.
(39:18):
My question is, what do youthink it would take for someone
to ride him and do you think hewill always buck?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
So I've always perceived buckingis a response.
To some sort of overstimulationover threshold.
(39:41):
Mm-hmm.
In initially.
Mm-hmm.
But it can become a habituatedlearned behavior that gets
triggered.
So, in other words, some horsesget to the point where I have
these emotions and I have thesefeelings.
And I can't figure out how tomake it all stop and get a
(40:03):
release from them unless I buck.
So in other words, there's amemorization of a, of a sequence
pattern, right?
Mm-hmm.
And certain, certain triggersare happening to, that, leads to
that behavior, and it can becomea go-to behavior whenever the
(40:24):
horse feels like.
This person's not listening tome, or I'm telling you No, or I
have concerns.
And so it, it just becomes ahabit.
Then going to your question, canthat somehow dissipate?
Is there a way, is there anapproach to fade that go-to
(40:48):
behavior?
Absolutely.
Good.
The, the question is though,what is the time involved?
Mm-hmm.
And what is the process involvedand how long, you know, how long
will it take?
For some horses it could be aquick, easy fix.
(41:10):
Mm-hmm.
For other horses, maybe not.
And so you have to.
Except that you're not gonna tryto shortcut and you're gonna be
more thorough and detailed andthoughtful and you just, it's a
journey.
(41:30):
You just have to see where itgoes.
But it, I see a buck, you know,a lot of people think that's
just part of the process.
We get on'em, we buck and weride the buck.
We know better than that.
Yeah, no, the thing is, is youknow, the professional.
With the big guns can ride thebuck, but just because they rode
(41:51):
it doesn't mean it's gone.
It's there.
And then the question is, whenwill it come out again?
So a horse can learn, well thisdude or dude at knows how to
ride the buck and they've gotall this other methods of
containing me.
That's not transferablenecessarily to, you know, the
(42:16):
owner or the novice.
Right.
And so it, I believe any kind ofvicey dangerous behavior, there
is always the potential.
It's, I look at it like it's adeep groove.
(42:36):
Think about a deep groove thathappened.
Somebody gouged your wood coffeetable.
Mm-hmm.
How deep is that groove?
What does it take to get thatgroove sanded out?
You know, some, some deep gougesare gonna need heavy grit,
sandpaper, very, you know, lotsof levels of heavy grit working
(42:58):
your way up to fine grit, andthat takes time, right?
Mm-hmm.
Other, other gouges and groovesmight take less sandpaper.
So, I'm sorry, my, my superautistic brain has to add, has
to add this to your coffee tableand it's kind of an interesting
it's kind of an interestingmetaphor because there's a way
(43:21):
to get dense and grooves out ofwood, which is put a warm cloth
on it and a hot iron becausethose cells are still alive.
I mean, they're not alive'causethe tree's dead, but the
cellulose will expand and comeup and you can get rid of it
with this heat and moisture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As well as with, as well as withall of this, you know, layered
(43:43):
sanding and it's all part of,it's all part of the, the horse
or the groove in the coffeetable.
Right.
But let's go back, let's talk,let's talk reality about sanding
out a groove.
Okay.
So we know that there aretriggers related to Charlie's
bucking certain, and it'sdefinitely when he probably
(44:07):
reaches a certain amount ofemotional feeling, overwhelmed.
Bam, I know how to get this toend, right?
So.
What needs to happen if we goback to what we were talking
about earlier, deconstructingend products into their small
bites.
So creating sequence patterns,we may have to formulate a whole
(44:32):
new kind of sequence pattern.
So it's kind of like anotherroute to that end goal that we
want, because there may be toomany triggers in the, in the.
Way he has had it presented tohim.
That's going to risk risk thatquite often I've found when I've
(44:54):
had to reroute and create a newkind of sequence pattern to
towards an end goal.
Once you kind of get'em over itand they start showing
reliability, then you can startinserting the old parts of the
old.
Pathway and your triggers arenot as evident.
(45:19):
You, you see what I'm saying?
So you can go back to possiblyold ways after you've created a
new path, a new pattern.
Yeah.
That, that, that, that does makesense to me.
Yeah, so I mean, I have animportant decision here because
I, I love Charlie.
I, I like the work that I dowith horses that isn't riding
(45:40):
them, but I have the, like, Ihave a responsibility I.
To this horse that if somethinghappens to me that I want him to
have value in this world thathasn't caught up yet to the
intrinsic value of horses.
So that he will be cared for.
(46:02):
And he's a young horse.
Yeah.
I'm 62 and he's nine.
So, you know, there's potentialthat he could have another home.
I don't know if I'm ever gonnaget the image of her coming off
over his head and doing twoflips and him continuing to buck
outta my head.
Right.
(46:22):
Right.
So no matter how much confidenceI were to build on other horses,
you know, riding is not thatimportant to me, that I'm gonna
spend that much time.
Doing those things.
So now it's really about what'sbest for the horse.
Right?
And you know, the work you'redoing through these podcasts and
talking to all these people whoare thinking outside of the box
(46:43):
mm-hmm.
Is gonna help not only Charlie,but so many other horses that
are in the same situation asCharlie.
And that's finding value inother ways.
With our equines and not justsaying that the value is only
this, you know, where it hitsour recreation, our
(47:03):
entertainment, and our sportthat we can find the value in
any horse if we're just willing.
To open our minds and shift ourmindsets and so that's what
you're doing.
I'll get a little emotional.
Yeah, no, I've got goosebumpsthe way you started saying that
because that is, that is thepoint.
(47:24):
And you know, part of my answerit is in what you said, so thank
you.
You're welcome.
You're very welcome.
This has been great, Kimberly,and I think this is a perfect
place to end.
I so appreciate you beingavailable for this and all of
your wisdom and the work thatyou do in this world and with
horses.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
(47:45):
Yeah.
All right.
I'll talk to you soon, Uhhuh.
Bye-Bye.
Hi, I am Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix,
and I am so happy to haveKimberly Dunn of Get Grounded
here with me today to helpprocess some of my last episode
and the dilemma of how we walkthe line with horse training and
honoring the horse and whathappens when that doesn't go so
(00:22):
well and all the differentlayers that go along with it.
Thanks for being here, Kimberly.
My pleasure.
It's, it's great to chat again,Ishi.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Always a pleasure to see you.
So what, what do you have for meafter watching that?
Wow.
Well, you know, the number onething that hits home for me
because I am a foundationrelationship-based trainer.
(00:45):
Mm-hmm.
Is this, this change that'scoming and being in the middle
of that I get hit with it dailyas not only do I train my own
projects, but I'm training forother people.
Mm-hmm.
And, these old ways, which arenow becoming antiquated.
(01:09):
Yeah.
Is something I'm always upagainst because I do my best to
put the time to build therelationship with the horse and
the foundation, and I let thehorse direct that journey.
So the horse is the number onevoice about how fast we go.
(01:31):
How much do we a accomplish in aday?
You know, that's all horsedirected.
And I utilize feedback loops totell me how much can the horse
chew today.
And, as well as reflection wheremaybe I asked too much today and
maybe I didn't set the horse upfor success.
(01:54):
Which is something we all do,right?
We're all trying to navigatethat of where do we go with the
horse that feels honorable,ethical doesn't compromise who
we believe we are and want tobe.
And we're not asking the horseto be compromised as well.
(02:16):
Mm-hmm.
So with that comes a whole shiftchange for me in method, you
know, so you brought up in yourvideo about natural horsemanship
methods and how there can, eventhough it sounds like the nicest
approach mm-hmm.
I'm not out to try to dig amethod.
However, there are componentswith that method that override.
(02:41):
What is being true to ourselvesand true to the horse, and we
have to acknowledge that.
I just wanna say that, that,that, that what you just said
has been echoed many placesrecently, like I'm hearing that
all over the place.
So we're not, we're not alone incoming to that conclusion.
Right.
Right.
(03:02):
Let's talk about though, why isthat so if you think
historically, just talkingreally generally, historically,
you know, our ancestors'relationship with horses was
surrounding utility.
Right?
We needed the horse to survive.
The horse provided the abilityfor us to do so many things in
(03:23):
our daily life.
Mm-hmm.
Well.
There are lots of technicalreplacements for that kind of
relationship.
But a remnant of the mindsetstill exists, right?
And so what we kind of see inequine community is this mindset
of the horse still is here forus.
(03:46):
So what is that for us about?
Well, it seems now it's moreabout entertainment, recreation.
Sport, you know,competitiveness.
So really the, the grand mindsethasn't changed much for, for a
huge part of the equinecommunity, whereas it's, it's
(04:10):
about the horses providingsomething for us.
And I think most people wouldagree, yeah, we have to take
care of our equines, but.
What is the level of that care?
And it seems to be the biggestfault is lack of acknowledgement
of emotional regulation.
(04:32):
So for me now, even as afoundation trainer, I see the
number one priority is.
My self-awareness and myemotional regulation and then
helping the horse to learn howto emotionally regulate in the
context in the world that I keepasking that horse to be with me.
(04:55):
Mm-hmm.
And with me.
So that's a huge mind shift,right?
But how I approach now.
Shaping behavior and reinforcingbehavior to a high rate of
reliability.
I won't compromise my integrityof that.
(05:19):
The horse directs that path andthey have to own it.
And when you have experienceafter experience, like I have
now for many years where I'velet the horse own it.
Find pathways for them owningthe experience.
(05:40):
It's kind of comparable to whenyou've had a homemade dark
chocolate truffle and you'llprobably never eat Hershey's
chocolate ever again.
Right, right.
So these experiences now, whenI've shifted my mindset, which
affected my agenda.
(06:01):
Both small agendas that happendaily as well as the grand
agendas of what I want toaccomplish.
I have to have patience and berespectful of what the horse is
telling me.
At the individual level so thatI can meet their needs, meet
them where they're at.
(06:22):
Mm-hmm.
To help shape that, thatbehavior.
So let me just get a little bitmore clear about some of what
you're talking about, where youare letting the horse dictate it
or set, set the pace, set.
Some of the, the learning are wetalking about like this term
I've heard a lot recently too,is habitation and, and that's
(06:43):
what we're, what we're doing.
We're creating theseneuropathways in the horse by
training and again and againthat create less reactivity and
more regulation throughhabituation.
Is that, is that how you wouldsay it?
Correct.
So I noticed when you werespeaking in your video, you
talked about yourself in yourjourney about being on the
(07:06):
spectrum, that you became awareof memory chains.
Mm-hmm.
So that's really what, how I seemyself when I am.
Wanting to create a high rate ofreliability with a behavior
mm-hmm.
Is I'm tapping into what thehorse does automatically, which
is very autistic, which isbuilding memory chains.
(07:28):
Mm-hmm.
So I utilize sequence patternsmm-hmm.
That help the horse develop andunderstand.
The outcomes of things as wellas for lack of better term,
trigger, trigger can be used ina negative way.
(07:50):
It can be used in a positiveway.
Mm-hmm.
But to trigger a sequence ofevents that the horse is willing
to offer.
And so where a lot of peoplestart out with a q.
And then they use all thispressure and release or, or
dominance or force for the horseto guess what that cue means.
(08:15):
And giving a release of pressureor a release of dominance or a
moment of rest is supposed to bethe way that the horse will
learn to repeat that behavior,right?
Where I found if you tap into.
A positive motivator and youdial into that innate quality
(08:40):
where the horse is seeking acertain outcome.
Mm-hmm.
You can start shaping it througha memory chain like you talked
about, or I call a sequencepattern.
Sequence pattern.
Okay, that makes sense.
Sequence pattern, events.
So the horse learns I'm apredictable person.
(09:02):
They learn reliability.
I become something that theyknow.
I will show them what is thebeginning of the pattern.
Mm-hmm.
And they know where we will endtogether with impact.
Can, can you gimme an i i Idescribed for people, I, I think
I have an idea'cause I've comeand, and worked with you a
(09:22):
little bit a couple of times,but what is the pattern and can
you speak to what happensemotionally with you and the
horse while you're creating thispattern?
And how is that related?
Yeah.
So the process quite often, Icall it deconstruction.
So if we wanna go back realquick remember I was talking
(09:42):
about the mindset mm-hmm.
Of mainstream equine world isproduct oriented.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
So they're, they're wanting in30 to 60 days, they want walk
tri canner, both directionspicking up correct leads.
Right.
And so there's this mindset ofall these, we have to have
(10:04):
these.
My milestones accomplished by acertain amount of time.
And if we, if we think moreabout process, process oriented
work with our horses rather thanproduct.
Mm-hmm.
And we can start deconstructing.
(10:25):
What is the end thing we'relooking for?
And then if I start going, okay,what does that all look like in
terms of what am I doing with mybody through each step?
What does the horse need to dowith their body, with each step?
Mm-hmm.
And the horse memorizes that.
Mm-hmm.
Through a positive motivator.
(10:46):
So deconstruction, for example,let's just talk about something
where we need to be able to walkup to a horse or i'll, I'll
extract the word need.
Many of us want to be able towalk up to a horse with a piece
of tack and put it on theirbodies, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if I think about how do Iwant to have a horse understand
(11:09):
that whole experience wheresomething inanimate is connected
to their body?
And they're going to feel itthrough their body and they may
feel me through that piece ofequipment.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm already starting to thinkabout it.
In a deconstructed way.
(11:30):
So I'm gonna break it down intothe steps, right?
So the first thing, what do Ineed to know?
I need to know that this horseis gonna be okay if I start
approaching them.
So I'm giving them eye contact,I'm walking towards them in a
direct way, and I have somethingin my hands, right?
(11:50):
Mm-hmm.
So that.
That might be something I startto deconstruct all the way to my
approach.
No equipment.
I'm just going to approach andretreat, approach, touch and
retreat approach, touch somemore and retreat, then I might
(12:12):
start adding the object, right?
Mm-hmm.
And all the while through this,I'm looking for the feedback.
Is it okay for me to add more?
So what the horse begins tolearn is Kimberly is this source
that helps me find end goals Ilike.
(12:34):
Mm-hmm.
Through positive motivators.
And she's going to always createthese patterns of things that
happen.
Mm-hmm.
And she builds on them.
So it's.
It's a lot like math, right?
So whatever I deconstruct in anevent or an activity, I start
(12:56):
out.
Simple.
And then I add more and I addmore and I add more.
Always getting feedback.
Can I add more today?
So you're break breaking it intolittle tiny steps.
Correct.
And little tiny intentions likeYes.
The whole thing about likegetting a horse in the trailer
(13:17):
starts with lifting one hoof.
Right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And.
Allowing the horse to give you alot of feedback and that they
know they're, you're gonnareally listen to what they think
about what you just showed themor introduced to them.
Creating trust you.
(13:39):
You're creating trust.
And when they tell you, no,that's enough for today, you
honor that.
Quite often, almost always, thenext time they're like, I'm
ready for you to add more.
But they learn.
This predictable pattern processwith you.
(14:01):
So I wanna jump to the video fora second.
'cause there's there it seemsthe more that I process this and
the more that I think about it,I think the main problem that
happened was I.
I had established acommunication with the horse
that if he needed me to get off,he would touch my boot with his
nose.
Yes.
Rather than try to buck a humanoff.
(14:21):
And we did a couple sessionswith animal communicators even.
And when I was working with thistrailer trainer, I explained
that to her, but when he wasdown at her place a couple of
times, she was able to navigateor push through that in a
different way, creating a neuropathway in her head that said,
oh, he doesn't really mean it.
(14:44):
Right.
So it's over overriding Uhhuh,the voice of the horse.
And it always ends up insomething unsafe.
Yeah.
Or it ends up in the horselearning coping mechanisms that
don't benefit them.
You talked about Csy being achecked out mare in your video
Yeah.
When I got her.
Yeah.
Right.
And she learned most likely thatas a coping mechanism mm-hmm.
(15:08):
To whatever stimulus.
That overrode her communicationof you've overwhelmed me, you've
taken me over threshold.
Mm-hmm.
I don't understand this.
And you know, some horses willbe like Charlie, who say, you
didn't listen to me.
So now I just have to speaklouder and be an asshole mm-hmm.
(15:30):
While I speak.
And other horses will figure outa coping mechanism where they
just check out and they're notreally present.
The thing about horses like Cypse is a lot of people think that
they have accomplishedsomething.
Yeah.
They've taught a horse to checkout.
(15:50):
And when you have a lot ofexperiences working with horses
and riding horses through arelationship based mode where
you honor the voice of the horseand everything becomes, very
communicative.
There's a lot of conversationgoing on.
When you go and ride a checkedout horse, it's an incredibly
(16:14):
unsettling feeling.
Yeah.
For me.
Yeah.
So, get me back on trackbecause, okay.
Alright.
So I feel like on a bunny allthis stuff is, is very pertinent
to it.
It, it is.
But so I, I guess I have that.
I have some guilt around themoment when I could see them
(16:37):
escalating up on top of the hilland turning in circles and he
put his nose on her boot andthen looked at me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I like in that moment, Isaid something, but I wasn't.
Forceful enough, you know, Isaid, how about you get off him
and come ride Sipsy and let mewalk him for a while.
(16:58):
And when she disagreed with me,I should have said, no, it's
time to get off.
But it's that line.
And you know, like maybe this issomething to speak to too.
I mean.
It probably doesn't happen withyou'cause you're a trainer who,
who knows what you're doing whenyou take on a horse for someone
else.
There may be negotiations withthat person.
There may be needing to educatethat person as to what you're
(17:21):
doing.
But maybe a broader, like tozoom out because there, there
are many different sides to thisequation is like, how do we
navigate our intuition with ourhorses when they're at a
trainer?
And yeah, the trainer'sresponsibilities there and their
competence level.
(17:42):
Yeah.
The, that whole scene the hillscene with the two horses and
you are with a trainer.
There are so many things wecould talk about.
But I get a sense that it'sfitting to point out, let's
think about the power we give.
Our trainers and our teachers.
(18:04):
One thing we have to acknowledgeis in the equine community,
there is potential for a lot ofbullying and ego tripping.
And this, I'm not trying tospeak against your trainer at
all.
I'm speaking more about in ageneral sense.
(18:27):
We as horse owners who areultimately responsible for the
future, the welfare, theemotional wellbeing of our
equines, it's common practicefor us to hand them over to a
professional and then feelinglike we are limited in our power
to be the voice.
(18:48):
For that horse.
And so that is something thatneeds to be resolved and needs
to be figured out becausetrainers are not ultimate
authorities.
TR trainers are they, they makemistakes and giving them
unilateral decision making andsub.
(19:10):
Subjecting yourself to whateverthey say is, is biblical is a
dangerous thing.
I've had many clients who I hadto do equine related trauma
therapy with mm-hmm.
Rebuilding their confidencebecause they were directly hurt
(19:32):
by the decisions made by atrainer.
Hurt by the horse, by thedecision hurt by the horse of a
trainer, hurt by the horse.
Correct.
Which destroys all trust inrelationship every which way it
does.
Wow.
It does.
So this notion and it goes backto that mindset of we're in this
(19:52):
world where horses are, areentertainment, they're our
recreation and they're oursport.
Creates this, this sense of,well, I have this equine and I'm
gonna give it to a trainer andwhen it comes back it's gonna
meet my needs.
And there's littleaccountability.
(20:14):
Mm-hmm.
Or responsibility with the ownerthat they have to be very
proactive.
Quite often they're getting backgreen horses.
But in your situation, youtalked about Ypsi who had had a
lot of groundwork, a lot oftraining.
She went for finish work and youended up two or three steps back
(20:34):
and you talked almost at thebeginning.
Yeah.
You talked about having to goback to groundwork and it took
you a year, a whole year tobuild back trust where I could,
where I could even start writingher again and yeah.
And so, I mean, that's a wholetopic there that you know,
horses going from trainers topeople.
(20:58):
And so that's about horses goingfrom one skill set.
One ability to manage behavior,be it the right way or the wrong
way to manage behavior,behavior's, being managed and
then going into a scenario whereyou have people who think it's
transferable and all I need toknow is I.
(21:19):
How to use the aid or how topush the button.
And I don't need to consideremotional regulation or what the
horse is telling me.
I don't need to consider thatmaybe context that I'm creating
is way different than contextthat the trainer created, you
know, all of these things.
So really there's a whole topicthat could be, you could do a
(21:43):
whole series on trainer.
Owner relationships, thatdynamic, that power dynamic in a
way where we can empower horseowners more to expect, that this
is a team effort, you know, soit, what what's occurring to me
as you talk is like the journeythat I've been on, you know,
(22:05):
that parallels a lot ofjourneys.
People have, have been on withthis and, and this place where a
lot of ho horse owners are,where they want their horse to
be further trained and don'thave the ability to do it
themselves.
It, it's almost as if, it'salmost as if we've been doing
the whole thing wrong.
And the potentiality forteaching horse ship, which is my
(22:29):
new word the relationship with ahorse encompasses training,
encompasses behavior,encompasses self-regulation, and
emotional processing of theperson, which could be pretty
heavy therapy.
Yeah.
And, and that this is, this isreally what horses are offering
is this package.
(22:50):
And up till now we've only likeplayed with little pits of the
package and, and it's, it's nota hole, like, like holistic
horse ship.
And I'm, I'm just thinking aboutthis as I'm talking, it's all
forming in my mouth like rightnow, real time as if we were to
offer a package that washolistic horse ship.
(23:13):
It would involve all of thosethings and it would require the
teachings that only a very fewpeople have the awareness of
today.
Right.
But that's kind of what thequiet revolution might be about.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, I, in addition totraining, I do mentorships.
Mm-hmm.
And quite often.
(23:38):
What I see is lacking withpeople who have horses is a lot
of skill in observation.
Mm-hmm.
And then interpreting what theysee.
Mm-hmm.
And this speaks to all of theseestablished narratives that
quite often are formulated onthis.
(24:01):
We have this duality, we havethis.
Conflict and that requires some,one of the individuals to speak
louder and be more dominant.
Mm-hmm.
To, to convince the, the subjectthat they must comply rather
(24:23):
than going, okay, I have thishorse now that I'm gonna form
this relationship with.
Where the horse is gonna teachme how to really pay attention,
how to pay attention to them ina meaningful way, and how to pay
better attention to myself.
So I have a practice quite oftenwith new students where we just
(24:47):
spend a lot of time observingand we call out observations and
then we try to find patterns.
With what we're observing.
And it's not okay to come upwith, with a narrative.
It's not okay to come up with aconclusion.
'Cause what happens I find a lotof times is people see behavior
and they wanna create a story toexplain the behavior they see.
(25:12):
And so they'll create anarrative quite often when you
do that too early.
You don't test your theoriesabout what you're seeing which
might mean changing contextchanging equipment, changing
what you're doing before youcome to a conclusion.
But what happens is people cometo a conclusion too early and
(25:34):
then what happens next?
They formulate a plan.
So formulating a plan based on afalse conclusion, where are you
gonna end up?
Not where you wanna be.
For sure.
Exactly.
So that's, that's huge.
That's important.
And that's why I try to keeppeople on the ground with their
(25:55):
two feet on the ground, moreinteractive, moving, figuring
out how to move together withthe horse in, in a synchronized
way.
Works on all of those skillsthat we need to develop.
This really lacking.
Even with a lot of professionaltrainers, I see it lacking.
(26:17):
Yeah.
So, but when you start gettinginto that kinda work mm-hmm.
You kinda wanna stay there, youknow?
'cause you ask the question, doI really wanna ride anymore?
Yeah.
And I'll be one that says, younever have to ride again.
I don't care if you ever ride ahorse.
What I care about.
(26:38):
Is how you spend time with ahorse is mutually meaningful for
the best.
Yes.
And if I could ride and have itbe mutually meaningful, I would
do that.
But I've had very fewexperiences outside of the ranch
or outside of riding withsomeone like you or Carissa,
(27:00):
where it is meaningful.
And that just may speak to my.
Un expertise in, in riding andthe journey that I've been on to
learn a lot of this stuff.
You know, the co-created ridesthat I would have at the ranch
that were not, that, where I hadno agenda and the horses took me
along.
(27:20):
Yes.
And you know, we were on 200acres with a perimeter fence
where we could, we could dothat.
They live there.
They know there.
Those were meaningful sitting inthe round pen with the horses
and the musical instrumentsearlier that week, that was
meaningful.
Horse hiking has beenmeaningful.
Yeah.
I do not want to be in aposition again where I need to
(27:42):
make my horse go up this fourfoot dirt embankment because she
just told me no.
I, I don't wanna do thatanymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it when, like I said, itgoes back to that chocolate
analogy, you know, once you'vetasted something that's really,
really good.
Yeah.
And really speaks, feeds yoursoul, speaks to your heart.
(28:05):
It's hard to do that otherstuff.
It's really hard.
Yeah.
And you know, I have clients whocome to me who have agendas
mm-hmm.
With their horses and quiteoften I'm thinking missing out.
From my perspective there,you're missing out on what this
is all about.
(28:25):
Because we don't need them forthese things.
We don't need them to winribbons.
Mm-hmm.
Can it be fun?
Absolutely.
Can people go and do events andhave fun with their horse?
Absolutely.
But there's too much focus onthe ribbon.
There's too much focus on thecompetition.
There's too much focus on.
(28:46):
That product and noacknowledgement of the process
and how that's just the space tobe where there's the peace,
there's the joy, the delight.
I moved to a rapport buildingmodel now where I work at
Liberty.
Mm-hmm.
And I use a positivereinforcement model.
(29:09):
So I'm setting up a mindset.
In the beginning with the horsewhere they see if they can pay
attention to their themselvesand to me and my influence it
will end in a positive outcome.
And that mode I can be thereforever with the horse because.
(29:32):
It becomes this, this processwhere I can ask the horse, are
you paying attention to when mytoe is pointed this way, or when
my toe is pointed that way andthey can show me.
Yeah.
I'm paying attention to that.
And so all these opportunitieswhere the horse gets to freely
(29:53):
show me their level ofawareness.
Mm-hmm.
Their intelligence in solving aproblem.
Mm-hmm.
Just through this utilization ofa positive motivator which is
tapping into innate seeking,which we all do, you know it's,
it's just a beautiful place tobe and it feels so good.
(30:16):
It keeps me on my two feet.
Way longer than most people whoare focused on, we gotta get'em
walk truck canner in, you know,in both directions.
Some of my horses that I dofoundation relationship training
on mm-hmm.
They're not picking up thecanner for a year.
Yeah.
What's the hurry?
And then I see people who've got'em, you know, they threw all
(30:39):
the equipment on'em at once.
They hopped on'em in a round penand first or second ride,
they're doing all three gates.
And you can see the horse islike, holy crud, am I
overstimulated?
Am I overwhelmed?
And it just, it's overridden.
Yeah.
You know, there, there, there's,that's just an experience I've
abandoned.
I have no interest in thatanymore and I'm hoping that
(31:03):
other people I.
Will feel comfortable movinginto that space.
That's just, that just is, youknow, you talked about being for
hours.
Mm-hmm.
In a round pen, in a differentway.
You know, you're, you're sort ofrepurposing the, the round pen.
And I love that.
(31:23):
We see round pens, you know, alot of people will build them
with solid high walls.
Mm-hmm.
You know why?
Because the pressure load isgonna be so over the top,
there's a risk that that horseis gonna go up and over or try
to go through.
And it, it adds this emphasis ofdemand.
(31:44):
You must focus on me.
So I have a round pen.
Mm-hmm.
And it's three strands ofelectrical tape that are not
even electrified.
And I know when I take my horseinto a round pen that I have to
be very well aware of mypressure, the amount of pressure
(32:06):
I put on that animal, becausethey will go through it.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm more impressed withtaking a horse into that space
where there is no escape.
You know, if we're asking ahorse to move in a round pen
through pressure.
It's not natural because horseswill tell other horses to move.
(32:30):
There's a way out, and once thatother horse is far enough away
mm-hmm.
And has moved according to thedirection of another horse, then
pressure is done and over with.
But the round pen scenario, theold way of utilizing a round pen
mm-hmm.
Doesn't give any release.
Really?
No.
(32:50):
Just a place for the horse togo.
Right.
Right.
And I mean two, you know, twothings occur to me as you're
talking about that and you're,you're absolutely right about
like how we use round pens.
And the image that came into myhead as you're talking about
that, is when I'm in the roundpen with them doing, you know,
therapy type work or justhanging out with no intention,
(33:13):
sometimes a horse will go andstand at the gate and bump the
gate.
Yes, you can go out.
They, they're just, they'reasking and they're there.
I mean, they're enclosed inthere, but they also know that
if they ask to go out, they willbe let out.
And the exercise that, you know,Monty Roberts came up with that
(33:33):
is so everywhere in horsetraining.
I, I've seen a softer version ofthat in pastures where people
will just.
I'm curious about yourconclusions about this because
it is about less pressure, butit also is about some horse
behavior is they will go to thehorse where the horse is
standing in the pasture and takeup that space and the horse will
(33:55):
move and then they will walk towhere the horse is and they will
take up that space and the horsewill move somewhere else.
And usually about the thirdtime, the horse will start
following them around.
Just like what happens in Joinit, but it's a much softer
version.
Have you seen that?
Do, what do you think aboutthat?
I don't see any problems withthat.
I think working in a largerspace is more ideal that offers
(34:20):
the horse the ability to giveyou feedback by responding.
Mm-hmm.
So working at Liberty, yes.
Quite often in my arena when I'mworking at Liberty, I'll have, I
have gates at each end.
Mm-hmm.
And I'll leave them open.
One opens into a courtyard, oneopens into a small pasture, and
(34:41):
those gates are open.
And so if the horse chooses todisengage or if they need to
step out to just check on whereare the other horses or
whatever, and come back.
Mm-hmm.
That gives me valuableinformation about what they
think about me.
What I'm doing and what I'moffering.
Wow.
So, yeah.
So that's huge.
(35:01):
Like, that's such a huge novelthing.
Like that's amazing.
Yeah, it is.
Because I, I'm not looking for afalse sense that a horse wants
to be with me.
If, if the horse blocks away andsays, you're not that
interesting today, and I've gotother things on my mind, or I'm
(35:22):
unsure about you, so I need toget away from you, I wanna know
that because I want thechallenge of, well, what do I
need to change about myself tobe more appealing?
And or what is it about thecontext I've asked them to be in
that's concerning to them?
So that, that brings up an, animportant point from what
(35:43):
happened to me and, and how andwhy I brought in my own personal
you know, where I was in themidst of my EMDR with this
issue.
I mean, like, it was, it wasrepeating itself, I felt like
most of the time.
My regulation was okay.
Although I had that fear, like Ihad that fear about me getting
(36:04):
on Charlie that I couldn't eventapping it, even like honoring
it, even like sitting with it.
It, it would go away and itwould come back, it would go
away and it would come back andit turned out to be, there was
something very real to be afraidabout.
But my, you know, like how are,I guess a big part of this is
(36:25):
how.
The owner or the trainer'semotional state affects what's
happening with the horse.
And I guess the idea of like,what do we do about that is so
wide, how do we navigate that?
That's a huge question becauseit's so individual, but it's
(36:45):
also super pertinent to whatwe're talking about and to the
idea that there could be, youknow, a real.
Holistic horses because that's abig part of it.
Right.
Right.
Well talking about youremotional state and your
(37:05):
emotions related to yourconfidence mm-hmm.
With him.
And whether he can sense that ornot.
I would say yes.
Even if it's just at thephysical level, because you
know, if you're in a state ofnot feeling fully safe or
comfortable mm-hmm.
You're gonna release certainchemicals and you're gonna smell
(37:26):
a certain way.
Your heart rate is gonna docertain things, you know, your
whole nervous system isaffected.
Mm-hmm.
And what people don't realize ishorses can memorize a moment in
time.
Kind of almost likemulti-dimensionally, where quite
often we rely on the visuals orwhat we hear in a moment to
(37:52):
remember it.
Mm-hmm.
They're able to fully assesstheir body in terms of position.
What they're doing with theirbody, what they're doing in
their body, in relationship towhatever else is around.
But they're also taking up noteson you.
(38:14):
What's your nervous system likeright now?
How do you smell?
There could be body gestures,expressions that you're
conveying when you're in thatstate.
They're picking up on that.
And so these are the thingsthat.
Are not being addressed or givenenough time and space that is
(38:34):
lending to disconnect betweenhorses and humans, which in turn
leads to dangerous situations.
Speaking of dangerous situationslike moving forward.
What would you say about, like,I have, I, I've hung out with
him in his, in his barnyard.
(38:55):
I haven't put him back in the,no, I did put him back in the
brown, in the, in the round pen.
We actually did a a coachingsession with someone and he's
been, he's been great with me onthe ground and, and it doesn't
seem like I don't see theeffects of what happened, but I
also haven't tried to put asaddle on him.
Is he, is he trainable?
I, I mean, is he, of course he'strainable.
(39:18):
My question is, what do youthink it would take for someone
to ride him and do you think hewill always buck?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
So I've always perceived buckingis a response.
To some sort of overstimulationover threshold.
(39:41):
Mm-hmm.
In initially.
Mm-hmm.
But it can become a habituatedlearned behavior that gets
triggered.
So, in other words, some horsesget to the point where I have
these emotions and I have thesefeelings.
And I can't figure out how tomake it all stop and get a
(40:03):
release from them unless I buck.
So in other words, there's amemorization of a, of a sequence
pattern, right?
Mm-hmm.
And certain, certain triggersare happening to, that, leads to
that behavior, and it can becomea go-to behavior whenever the
(40:24):
horse feels like.
This person's not listening tome, or I'm telling you No, or I
have concerns.
And so it, it just becomes ahabit.
Then going to your question, canthat somehow dissipate?
Is there a way, is there anapproach to fade that go-to
(40:48):
behavior?
Absolutely.
Good.
The, the question is though,what is the time involved?
Mm-hmm.
And what is the process involvedand how long, you know, how long
will it take?
For some horses it could be aquick, easy fix.
(41:10):
Mm-hmm.
For other horses, maybe not.
And so you have to.
Except that you're not gonna tryto shortcut and you're gonna be
more thorough and detailed andthoughtful and you just, it's a
journey.
(41:30):
You just have to see where itgoes.
But it, I see a buck, you know,a lot of people think that's
just part of the process.
We get on'em, we buck and weride the buck.
We know better than that.
Yeah, no, the thing is, is youknow, the professional.
With the big guns can ride thebuck, but just because they rode
(41:51):
it doesn't mean it's gone.
It's there.
And then the question is, whenwill it come out again?
So a horse can learn, well thisdude or dude at knows how to
ride the buck and they've gotall this other methods of
containing me.
That's not transferablenecessarily to, you know, the
(42:16):
owner or the novice.
Right.
And so it, I believe any kind ofvicey dangerous behavior, there
is always the potential.
It's, I look at it like it's adeep groove.
(42:36):
Think about a deep groove thathappened.
Somebody gouged your wood coffeetable.
Mm-hmm.
How deep is that groove?
What does it take to get thatgroove sanded out?
You know, some, some deep gougesare gonna need heavy grit,
sandpaper, very, you know, lotsof levels of heavy grit working
(42:58):
your way up to fine grit, andthat takes time, right?
Mm-hmm.
Other, other gouges and groovesmight take less sandpaper.
So, I'm sorry, my, my superautistic brain has to add, has
to add this to your coffee tableand it's kind of an interesting
it's kind of an interestingmetaphor because there's a way
(43:21):
to get dense and grooves out ofwood, which is put a warm cloth
on it and a hot iron becausethose cells are still alive.
I mean, they're not alive'causethe tree's dead, but the
cellulose will expand and comeup and you can get rid of it
with this heat and moisture.
Yeah.
Yeah.
As well as with, as well as withall of this, you know, layered
(43:43):
sanding and it's all part of,it's all part of the, the horse
or the groove in the coffeetable.
Right.
But let's go back, let's talk,let's talk reality about sanding
out a groove.
Okay.
So we know that there aretriggers related to Charlie's
bucking certain, and it'sdefinitely when he probably
(44:07):
reaches a certain amount ofemotional feeling, overwhelmed.
Bam, I know how to get this toend, right?
So.
What needs to happen if we goback to what we were talking
about earlier, deconstructingend products into their small
bites.
So creating sequence patterns,we may have to formulate a whole
(44:32):
new kind of sequence pattern.
So it's kind of like anotherroute to that end goal that we
want, because there may be toomany triggers in the, in the.
Way he has had it presented tohim.
That's going to risk risk thatquite often I've found when I've
(44:54):
had to reroute and create a newkind of sequence pattern to
towards an end goal.
Once you kind of get'em over itand they start showing
reliability, then you can startinserting the old parts of the
old.
Pathway and your triggers arenot as evident.
(45:19):
You, you see what I'm saying?
So you can go back to possiblyold ways after you've created a
new path, a new pattern.
Yeah.
That, that, that, that does makesense to me.
Yeah, so I mean, I have animportant decision here because
I, I love Charlie.
I, I like the work that I dowith horses that isn't riding
(45:40):
them, but I have the, like, Ihave a responsibility I.
To this horse that if somethinghappens to me that I want him to
have value in this world thathasn't caught up yet to the
intrinsic value of horses.
So that he will be cared for.
(46:02):
And he's a young horse.
Yeah.
I'm 62 and he's nine.
So, you know, there's potentialthat he could have another home.
I don't know if I'm ever gonnaget the image of her coming off
over his head and doing twoflips and him continuing to buck
outta my head.
Right.
(46:22):
Right.
So no matter how much confidenceI were to build on other horses,
you know, riding is not thatimportant to me, that I'm gonna
spend that much time.
Doing those things.
So now it's really about what'sbest for the horse.
Right?
And you know, the work you'redoing through these podcasts and
talking to all these people whoare thinking outside of the box
(46:43):
mm-hmm.
Is gonna help not only Charlie,but so many other horses that
are in the same situation asCharlie.
And that's finding value inother ways.
With our equines and not justsaying that the value is only
this, you know, where it hitsour recreation, our
(47:03):
entertainment, and our sportthat we can find the value in
any horse if we're just willing.
To open our minds and shift ourmindsets and so that's what
you're doing.
I'll get a little emotional.
Yeah, no, I've got goosebumpsthe way you started saying that
because that is, that is thepoint.
(47:24):
And you know, part of my answerit is in what you said, so thank
you.
You're welcome.
You're very welcome.
This has been great, Kimberly,and I think this is a perfect
place to end.
I so appreciate you beingavailable for this and all of
your wisdom and the work thatyou do in this world and with
horses.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate theopportunity.
(47:45):
Yeah.
All right.
I'll talk to you soon, Uhhuh.
Bye-Bye.
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