March 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Horses aren't the only method we can utilaize to bring about co-regulation and heal our trauma and hurts. Ky takes about evidence based therapy that makes a world of difference using the natural world. Our ancestors knew some things that deserve a serious reinvestment. Check it out, if applied guarenteed to soothe!
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have with me Kai Brownfrom Wiser River Wellness.
Kai is a therapist and he isusing some new techniques in
ecotherapy that I wanna hear allabout.
Welcome, Kai.
Yeah, it's great to be here.
She, thanks for having me.
(00:22):
Yeah, so.
So, yeah, I, I have my ownpractice called Wise River
Wellness.
And just a little background tothe name'cause I think that
might be important.
I, in a former life I wasworking as a watershed
scientist.
I was involved in watershedrestoration.
And the short story is through alot of that work, which brought
me into connection withcommunity a lot of different
(00:44):
players come into how wepreserve our watersheds.
I realized my desire to bringpeople together and specifically
with their connection withnature.
And so as I transitioned into,into the mental health realm, I
brought forward that aspect,which I think falls in the realm
of what we know as sort ofecotherapy now.
(01:06):
And I believe ecotherapy, ifkind of to give it sort of a
definition or somewhat of anunderstanding what that looks
like oftentimes in thetherapeutic space, we focus a
lot on the human to humanrelationships in our life.
And recognizing that we actuallyhave relationships with all, all
(01:29):
sorts of life around us,oftentimes the natural world
and, and our ancestors had a lotof relationships with the
natural world, with the placesthey lived with the changing of
the seasons with the flora andthe fauna.
And so recognizing part of whatmight be happening in our world
right now is this idea of.
(01:51):
Eco anxiety this or eco griefthis reality that we are
disconnected from the worldaround us that we're, we're
moving quickly and we're notmaybe taking into the place that
we're in, in a deeper way thatallows us to feel connected.
And so yeah, I'm happy to talk alittle bit more about.
(02:11):
Where I, where that comes in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That seems really important.
I'm thinking back to one of myother previous podcasts and
something someone said about youcan't understand the organism
unless you understand theenvironment, which I think is a
very true, very, very generalstatement.
But, you know, as it applies towhat you just said, our
(02:32):
environment as a species isreally shifted and that
disconnect yeah.
Has certainly caused and hadlots of impact on how we respond
and react to things.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the majority of peoplenow spend quite a lot of time on
screens and artificialinteractions with machines and
(02:55):
various things.
And there's a lot of, there's alot of when we think of sort of
the somatic piece to therapy.
So being in our bodies, likewhat's it like to be embodied in
the world?
We have a very cognitiveculture.
We have a very sort of headyculture and to be in a garden,
to have your hands in the soil,to watch the plants go from a
(03:16):
seed to an actual vegetable orcrop of sorts, to watch a river
through the year and to see thedifference in the water level,
the changes or the difference inthe trees.
This gives us an opportunity tofeel not only the changes in
nature, but to reflect alongthose changes with our own
lives.
It's very powerful.
(03:39):
It's like an anchoring force.
I know.
I know those things are in mylife.
They're very grounding and veryanchoring.
So part of what you're doing isevidence based taking people out
on a trail.
Can you tell me more about that?
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So it You know, it's, and I, Iwanna say it maybe seems very
(03:59):
new, but it's not.
It's actually something we've,again, we've been doing a long
time, we just aren't doing it asmuch anymore.
I think in the, in the pandemic,a lot of people discovered
nature again, the, the rise inpeople being outside.
I don't have the actualstatistics on that, but it just
seemed like, from what I heard,from my community here in
Oregon, a lot more people werewanting to be outside a lot of
trails got more busy.
(04:21):
And yeah, people are starting tosee the benefits of the fresh
air, fresh, fresh experiences innature.
And so part of that for me, andalso part of that is that in the
and I think about even thetherapy space, we're often
sitting in a room or sitting ona couch.
We're not really moving a wholelot.
We're looking, we're underlights.
Often, some places it's evenfluorescent lights.
(04:42):
And even as the therapist, Irecognize I can't sit that long.
It's a long time to sit.
And I have clients where I sortof invite them in.
I'm like, hey, would we want tomove our bodies more?
Would we want to go on a walk?
Let's, let's mix it up.
And even the act of justwalking.
So I think about.
Oh, I think two years ago a bookcame out, and I can't, I can't
recall the author at the moment,but it was a walk and talk book,
(05:03):
and it talked a lot about thetherapeutic benefits of walk and
talk.
Just getting out and walkingwith your clients, how that
bilateral movement is almostsimilar to EMDR.
That's right.
Yeah.
And so I'm just taking that.
I have that idea only taking ita step further.
Like, let's do that with theintention of being in nature.
And let's use the journey on thetrail.
(05:25):
What's it like to go on a trailwith all the bends and the
curves are up the hill or downthe hill?
What do you notice in your bodyas you're walking?
What do you notice around you?
How do you open your vision?
So, so often where our vision isso focused, Directly in front of
us.
And when we cast our vision to awider view, we actually create
more space in our experience tofeel the things that are arising
(05:46):
for us.
Yeah.
So these are just some examples.
That's an interesting pointabout the perspective and the
widening because as I've spent alot of time with horses.
I know that my awareness for anysmall movement in the distance
has sharpened, and that myawareness of looking.
(06:07):
Looking peripherally muchfurther because I'm with them
has changed because I'm withthem and that's the way they
see.
So, you know what you're sayingmakes a lot of sense that it did
it definitely broadens thingsand I'm sure there's lots of
metaphor that happens out there,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
(06:27):
I'm glad you brought that pointup.
Yeah, so like a great example ofthat is when I, when I consider
like, how do we, what is it liketo work through grief, you know,
recognizing in our culture,grief is something that we are,
we don't have a lot oftraditions for that.
We don't have a lot of guidance,like what it's like to have
grief.
loss and grief in community.
And a lot of people are oftenhesitant to even reach out
(06:50):
regarding grief.
So nature can be really powerfulfor that.
The ability to see that, ohlook, we're in a season of
winter.
Recently here in Oregon, youknow, we're coming out of
Getting closer to spring and soas we move through winter we can
actually use that metaphor ofnoticing the trees falling back,
the leaves falling off, thingsopening up.
Sometimes we have that sense ofsorrow that shows up that time
(07:13):
of year and that going in andthen the recognition that things
will come back.
Like life is like prevails, lifecomes forward abundant again and
it's actually just part of acycle of being being human and
being connected to, you know,the ebb and flows of the natural
world as well.
Yeah, I've often felt that inthe garden too, as you see the
(07:33):
flowers die back and then as youlearn more about plants or as I
have learned more about plants,noticing that like some, like a
peony, a peony can live 100years, you know, a rose maybe
30, a marigold one season.
So yeah, there's that, there'sthat difference of of all the
variations of, of life and howlong.
(07:58):
You know, bugs live, how longdifferent plants live, how long
different people live.
Yeah, and just, I think, to addto that too, like, again, going
back to sort of the, and again,I do still do therapy in an
office, and I think you canhave, you can't have a site
ecotherapy in an office, you canhave plants in your office, you
can have even just thediscussion of nature and what
(08:20):
that's like in people's lives.
For some people, nature can beactually scary, or they can have
They can have memories of naturebeing darker, harder in their
lives as well.
So I want to bring in thatbecause I recognize that not to
make the assumption that natureis just, you know, easy for
people or always connecting, butit's more, what is it taking us
(08:41):
to?
And can we come back to it?
Maybe it is, maybe there is anexperience that was challenging
with nature and that even can bea part of the healing to kind of
go back out in nature and bewith that and sort of use that
as part of the process.
Like an exposure.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I hadn't thought about thatperspective because it's so far
from, you know, from my ownexperience.
(09:02):
So, if you're doing a lot ofthis you know, Carissa who
connected us.
She and I have had several talksabout evidence based versus
theory based with equineassisted therapy.
And I'm kind of curious abouthow that plays in with the
ecotherapy too.
Like, is it a lot harder to beevidence based rather than
(09:26):
theory based?
And, and how do you, how do youwalk?
with that?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I, so I took a training outof so again, I would say my
training from nature has comefrom the formal training.
I'd say it was being ascientist, being a hydrologist,
and so really knowing, like, thescience of ecosystems and really
(09:50):
kind of diving into systemsthinking.
When I was in school that wassort of the beginning.
This was several, many years, 15years ago or something at this
point.
But when I was doing my firstmaster's that was when science
was starting to say, Hey, this,we have this reduct, we're
really reductionist.
We're not really integratedhere.
Like a biologist is not workingwith the chemist.
They're not working with ahydrologist.
(10:11):
So at that time, there's a lotof effort to cross collaborate
and start to actually look at,like, how all these sciences
interact through systemsthinking.
And I'm losing my train ofthought there.
Okay, evidence based and theorybased and coming from a
scientific background.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, so so the evidence ofHang on one second, I'm going to
(10:37):
come back to it.
Totally take your time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let me see here.
Yeah, so I think where I wasgoing with that was just the,
the, the evidence that we haveof ecosystem interaction and how
we know these ecosystemsinteract.
And then.
We start to put the human beinginto that.
Like, okay, what's the evidencethat we know about the human
(10:58):
being in ecosystems?
And so I decided to add to thatthrough through therapy by doing
a training through PacificaUniversity.
They have an ecotherapycertificate.
And that training was, washelpful for me in the sense that
it brought me to a lot of theevidence based research, which
there is a whole lot out there,actually.
And A lot of it actually comesout of Japan, there's actually a
(11:22):
lot of movement there in theJapanese culture, they, they now
highly value their forests somuch so that they have a,
they've taken forestry, andthey've taken the health
department and they've combinedthem, and so they sort of have
this idea of forest medicine.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's, that's potent.
(11:42):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and what they'll do in,in, in Japan is they'll actually
prescribe you, okay, we'represcribing you for your mental
health to go out into the forestand to walk, and to do what in
Japanese it's called shinrinroku, which basically means
forest bathing.
Mm hmm.
And so there, there's actuallyquite a lot of evidence for this
(12:03):
within that culture.
And then there's also been a lotof research moving forward in
the United States around, youknow, what are the benefits with
people's anxiety when they spenda little bit more time in
nature, or their depression whenthey spend more time in nature.
Yeah, really big, really bigstuff.
So there's no problem withinsurance covering just because
(12:29):
Whatever you're doing normallyas a therapist in the office,
you're doing it the same withthe same evidence based criteria
when you're on a trail or whenyou take people out.
Well, that's a great question ora great point you bring up.
So there is a, there is achallenge with insurance and
that's actually probably one ofthe biggest conversations people
(12:49):
are having around this and oneof the big, for some, stopgap.
So reason being is insurance isreally concerned with HIPAA
compliance often.
And so one of the ways thatpeople work with that is they
meet, insurance requires us tomeet at the office.
So people will often meet at theoffice and then you'll have like
a walk and talk form or someoutdoor form that basically your
(13:13):
client says, yeah, that I wouldlike to do that.
They sign that form and thenthat allows you to, to leave the
office and to go out.
On your walk or out in natureback to the office but that
being said, I think that's a bigchallenge.
Like, I think there are actuallya lot of therapists that are not
using insurance if they reallywant to do this work because to
take a client out into thewilderness or to meet them in
(13:35):
the wilderness becomes achallenge with insurance.
And so one of the ways Inavigate that is I, I do do the
meet at the office or I, or Ihave some clients that
unfortunately I, I might writethem a super bill.
And I might be meeting them outin the woods.
And so that way I'm not directlyinvolved with their insurance,
but still try to provide them away to get reimbursed if need
(13:57):
be.
Do you, it seemed like in ourlast conversation to prep for
this, which was quite a whileago, we both got kind of busy
and I dropped the ball.
But it seemed like we had someconversation around retreats or
creating workshops or thingsthat could bring in more
(14:18):
activities from primitivecultures that were really good
for brain health that kind offit into this model that we're
talking about.
You have you had some ideasabout that or some visioning or
even some experience?
I have.
Yeah, I definitely have.
So one thing I've done the lasttwo years, I should mention is
(14:40):
there's a festival up nearoutside Portland called Love
Oregon.
And it's a festival thatpromotes all, it's, it's a lot
of people from Portland, but itpromotes all things Oregon, the
food of Oregon, it promotesmusic.
And then there's also like amental health and a wellness
side to it.
And they've invited me to comeup I'm also, I also play music.
(15:04):
So I I've gone up to do that,but the main thing I've done is
actually led a workshop aroundembodiment in nature.
And so what I've done thereessentially, and this is
evolving is I've been able totake people and, and a group of
people, and we actually.
First, we start off and we talkabout, okay, what are like
(15:25):
pivotal experiences for you inthat natural world?
What's your relationship to thenatural world like?
And it's so interesting becausepeople very much tend to have
these formative experiences,like, oh, I remember that tree
in my yard, or I remember when Iused to go out in the field with
a grandparent or the, or somefruit that we used to get And
and so forth.
Now some people might come fromreally urban environments and
(15:47):
maybe have very littleexperience, but it may be a park
that they used to go to, likejust that little park or
something nearby.
And then I start to talk topeople about what's it going to
be like today, as, as we movethrough the woods, we're going
to slow down and I'm actuallygoing to have you all go off in
different directions.
And I'm going to have youlisten.
deeply to nature, listen to therhythms.
(16:09):
This is where some kind of musiccomes in.
Like what, what are the, some ofthe rhythms of the sounds or the
music that you hear in nature?
And then how do you also sort ofembody it?
Like when you're walking, I wantyou to walk barefoot
potentially, and I want you towalk like maybe you're an
animal.
Or maybe you're swaying like atree.
Or maybe there's a plant you seeand you notice how it moves and
(16:31):
I want you to move with it.
So Nate, there's so muchmovement in the natural world.
And so what's it like toactually try to take some of
that movement and those soundsand bring that into your body?
People have really differentexperiences with this, but often
they come back and there'sgenerally just like a sense of
like, wow, I felt like I openedup.
I felt like I was freer.
I felt.
(16:51):
Maybe a little more wild even.
I think sometimes we feel thatit's, we can't be wild and we
can't be free in our bodies.
We have, we're so often soconstricted in how we can move.
So it's playful.
It's fun.
It's expansive in that way.
That's really beautiful andsomatic.
And, you know, it reminds me ofsome of the things that I've
learned about, you know, how wecan connect with horses too.
(17:15):
We can connect with nature thatway.
But giving people permission tomove in their body and to
imitate nature is, I mean, for alot of people, I know that's
just got to be huge, huge.
But it's also where there's anintersection between that and
different types of dance, like,you know, in modern dance and in
(17:35):
ecstatic dance, sometimes withprompts.
They will talk about similarthings and in learning how
horses and animals connect, theyoften connect through rhythm,
which is something that is outof our awareness a lot.
And even falling in step with,with a horse or with other
people, that rhythm that'screated is also takes us there.
(17:59):
Like all of these things definethose connections and
environments.
So I can see how incredibly richthat would be.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and again, I think that ina, in a somewhat mechanized
world, it's in a linear worldwhere we sort of see things in a
mechanical and in a linear way.
(18:20):
It's sort of this opportunity tosay.
Let's like let's let's move in alet's move with the natural
rhythms of things like let's belet it go Let's be a little open
and free in this And also I saidI spent spoke to that word
linear.
I Nature is so cyclical.
It's so it's so rhythmic andthings aren't always linear and
(18:44):
and so Again, when we think ofsystems, we think of like
feedback loops, we think of, youknow, things, things shifting.
And so recognizing, like, Iguess when we go back to grief,
or we go back to some of theseemotions, that these aren't, the
healing process is never linearin, in, in addressing these
things.
Not at all.
(19:05):
I, you know, I, I totally relateto that.
I don't know if I'd shared thiswith you or not, but I've said
it a couple of times now on thepodcast.
I have my youngest son passedaway three years ago.
And the roller coaster of thegrief that I have experienced
where there's just it's just,it's just so sad.
No control, no bounds.
(19:26):
You don't know when it's goingto hit you, where it's going to
take you, when your body's goingto say, okay, we can't do this
anymore and still function andshut it all down only to have it
like erupt at the most, youknow, unexpected time all over
again, like I totally get howit's not linear at all and
allowing that.
(19:47):
I'm so grateful that I wasallowed to allow that, and that
I've had some help guiding methrough some of it too, but
yeah, huge stuff, huge.
Mm hmm, yeah, yeah.
Had you been in, had youutilized any, any nature in
your, in your healing process,or any rituals?
Yeah.
(20:07):
Every single day.
You know, I'm fortunate enoughto have a creek in my backyard
to have a park down the streetwhere the creek is, and I would
walk there every day with mydog.
I would go, you know, just goingout to take care of the horses
puts me there following themaround, you know, and then
seasonally gardening.
(20:29):
And then all of that, like Ihave, because I'm autistic,
because I have a reallysensitive nervous system,
because I've had a ton oftrauma, somehow my intuition has
had me arrange my life where allof these things have helped
tremendously.
I can't imagine going throughwhat I've gone through and being
(20:49):
in an urban environment withoutaccess to these things every
day, multiple times a day.
I would, I don't know that Iwould have survived.
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
And I love that you brought upyour nervous system because I
think when it comes down to itthat's a lot of the evidence
based research around nature isthat it really gives our, our
system, we're co regulating withnature.
(21:10):
And I think when I'm out therewith my, with clients, I
recognize like, rather than, Youknow, in the therapeutic room,
in the room, I tend to, I workwith couples and I work with
individuals, occasionallyfamilies, and a lot of that work
is co regulation in the room,teaching them how to co regulate
myself, working on my presenceand co regulation with them.
(21:32):
Sometimes, though, as atherapist, that You know, it can
it can also it can bechallenging, right?
We're taking things on.
We're really embodying that andthat can become a lot for the
sort of the single individual innature.
I feel this incredible supportfrom the natural world around me
as if I'm Hey, I'm just bringingyou into this space and this
(21:53):
space is going to naturally.
Be available for co regulation.
The trees are going to help youco regulate.
The wind is going to help you coregulate.
Just the, the lack of noise andsound and the natural sounds or
industrial sort of car sounds,the more natural sounds we hear,
there's really somethingpeaceful about that.
Yeah, it's huge.
I'm getting goosebumps as you'retalking about that.
(22:15):
Because it's like, it's like thecontainer, right?
But it's not an artificialcontainer.
It's our natural container.
It's our natural environment.
And like you kind of started offsaying, when we're cut off from
that, like, of course, we'rehaving trouble regulating.
Of course, we're having troubledealing with our traumas.
(22:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I think our I thinkour ancestors They had an
intuition for this.
They definitely had an intuitionfor going and visiting places
and having these sort of ritualsof returning to places and using
places to offer prayer and offerofferings and various ways to,
(22:58):
to sit in that.
One thing I'm on a journey to isespecially getting into this is
sort of looking at like, whatare my indigenous roots?
Like, what are, what's mybackground?
Recognizing that one of theimportant pieces about the
ecotherapy is that we, we, It'sour own journey to find what our
ancestry is like, and not tonecessarily, we can, we can
(23:18):
often appreciate and we can pullfrom other ancestries, but often
it's a journey of what's ourslike, and how do we bring that
and so I just started this butI'm very I have a lot of Irish
in my background and so I'm veryinterested in like Celtic
shamanism, and really like what.
What was involved in the, inthat ancestry in terms of how
people would go out in the hillsand spend many days in the
(23:39):
hills, many days sort of goingout on spiritual quests in order
to come back with more awarenesswith a, with a deeper sense of,
of their place.
In the world, so not justconnecting to environment but
connecting to your DNA throughyour ancestry specifically in
those rituals.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, really good stuff.
(24:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So, what other thoughts do youhave on on the subject?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, a big piece, too.
And I will see where I go withthis direction is just so I when
I go back to my science yearsdoing the science.
One of the things is I was I waslooking a lot of climate change
(24:24):
at that time, and I was deep inthe research.
I was at the University ofArizona, and there were some
people in that in thatuniversity that were on the Like
the UN panel on climate change.
So we're talking like top levelclimate scientists and hearing
about a lot of things that arenow happening, like an increase
in wildfires more erratic eventshappening in terms of weather
(24:48):
events and things.
So hearing about all thathappening and now living in that
more and I recognize that Yeah.
If we don't reconnect people tothe importance of the world
around us, to the natural world,we have no chance in shifting
these things either.
And so not only is thisimportant for the individual
(25:12):
healing, but I think it's alsoimportant to be able to continue
to be in, to kind of continue tobe in concert with the planet
around us as well.
And so for me as a personaljourney, it's been a way to
continue to do that work, but todo it on a much more one on one
basis with people and to reallybring people back into.
(25:32):
And I have a lot of, I have alot of clients and maybe this is
because of Oregon, but I have alot of clients that sort of
already show up and at leasthave some appreciation, but
often, but every now and thenI'll have people who, as I
surprise them when I'm like, Oh,Hey, do you want to go out and
do you want to spend some timeon a trail?
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
And there's almost like thisKind of like we're not used to
(25:53):
that.
We're used to being inside,like, you know, therapy's always
in a couch and in an office.
And one of the things that'sreally cool is when we go
outside, we have to step over,sometimes we step over, you
know, I try not to do too crazyof hikes, but I mean, sometimes
we do go over rocks or we stepup stuff, and there's a, there's
a shift there where We're bothtrying to get up that thing, or
(26:14):
we're both trying to move aroundthat trail, and there's a
lightning, the relationshipbetween us becomes a little less
formal, a little bit more real,human in a way, and people tend
to feel like they can open upmore, because we're both on,
we're both on this adventuretogether as well.
That makes, that makes a lot ofsense to me.
(26:35):
That makes a lot of sense to me.
I know I keep bringing it backto horses, but that's, you know,
that's what I know.
That's your world.
Yeah.
There are also studies thatthere are endorphins released
when you travel in a herd.
And I've myself have experiencedit.
And there were some studies thatthey did with some veterans
actually here in Oregon.
(26:56):
Where walking in a herd, if youhave pain, the endorphins that
are released end up taking careof the pain, at least
temporarily.
And so that's a little bit likethere's a joining of what you're
talking about, not just ofopening up, but of connecting,
of walking together.
Like that act is is reallypowerful.
(27:18):
You, you brought up somethinginteresting too about like
working with the individual andhow it applies to us taking care
of the planet in that, in thatsame way.
And this might be a little bit,you know, throwing you a curve
ball here.
I know that you're a you know,that you work a lot with
couples.
(27:38):
And so an idea that's gonethrough my head quite a bit is
we have a lot of, problems inour romantic relationships, our
couple relationships that are,you know, I mean, you could
probably name five that mostpeople you see have five issues
that are very common, maybemore.
And I'm starting to see a lot ofthose things as cultural issues,
(28:00):
not really necessarilyindividual issues.
I mean, they're individualissues also, but by Healing them
in individuals.
It seems like there's a way totake that out to make shifts in
the culture as well.
Have you?
I mean, does anything occur toyou as I say that?
Or have you even thought aboutthat sort of thing?
(28:23):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And I'm trying to think of whereto sort of dive in there.
Definitely.
Yeah, I mean, I think Yeah,obviously with the well with
thinking about the regulationpiece right and finding a way to
regulate.
So we're, we're in a very selfregulating culture, I would say
like many of us have to selfregulate we don't often have co
regulation opportunities.
(28:44):
And if we do, they might be withour primary partner.
So now we have a lot of pressurewe have this person that we have
to regulate with and we may nothave a lot of other resources so
we have to be good at that.
And if we're not good at that,it's really hard.
It's really hard.
A lot of pressure on couplesthese days with limited
resources.
So I think as the individual canfind sacred spaces, spaces and
(29:10):
getting back to being outside,or again, even being around
plants, being around, you know,recognizing there's a lot of
connection other than the sortof human to human, it allows
people to build that sense ofregulation and resiliency to
then bring that inner peacetowards relationships.
Another piece too is I'veactually taken couples outside.
So I do a lot of, I do in thesummer, in the, people are
(29:33):
really into it.
I might do it in the rainyseason, but it'd be a little
more tricky here maybe.
But I've done a lot of work inparks and outside in long rivers
with couples too.
And it really is feelsdifferent.
I think people show up we'resitting under a tree and we use
that tree to start the sessionlike notice the tree above you
(29:53):
notice the way it moves noticehow you what's showing up for
you and your body and it'sreally amazing how the two
people can use that to start.
The process of regulating andcome back to that.
So once again, it's not just me.
It's It's the environment.
I'm in it's supporting thatright?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's big too.
(30:14):
Wow.
So I'm not sure if I totallyanswer your question there if
you might kind of come back tothat.
Yeah Yeah, I guess some of mythoughts on it get a little bit
Yeah, more complicated.
Well, control control comes up,you know, front and center
because that's an issue that somany people deal with.
And in what I've learned formyself, it's usually about
(30:38):
safety and trust.
And so if that exists in a lotof if, if too much control or
illegitimate control or, orgrabs for control, are part of
Disfunction in a relationshipyou know, looking at our
culture, how our culture likeperpetuates that how our culture
(31:04):
is a reflection of that, or isthe relationship a reflection of
how that plays out in ourculture.
Yeah, that's a great question.
So like, is this coming fromthat's not kind of the couple
and then moving out into societyor is it coming from society of
back?
It's probably, I'm just throwingit out there.
(31:24):
It's probably both to someextent.
They're probably interweaving.
Definitely.
Yeah.
And so I guess the second partof that is, as we address it.
In either place, whether that'sin the workplace or in some
other larger place in ourculture, or we address it in the
individuals, can we take theintention.
You know, that this will affectand that either the individual
(31:51):
or the culture will respond towhat happens with either the
individual or the culture.
I mean, they're tied together inmy mind.
They're tied together.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, I think from a lot of mytraining and background, just
recognizing like how muchcontext affects our mental
health, right, who, where we'refrom, like so much of that.
(32:12):
So it is very much tiedtogether.
But I do think like.
It comes when I okay when Ibring it into the couple I, I
sort of envision, like peoplecome in to the to me and to see
me and it's often like you knowI'm not, we're not going to
like.
We're not going to stop.
(32:32):
You're not going to stopfighting.
You're not going to stop havingissues.
You're going to get better atrepairing those issues.
You're going to get better atacceptance and you're going to
get more skilled with, okay, I'magain, back to like, I'm
dysregulated.
How do I reregulate?
And what are the methods that wedo for that?
And so much of that is beingresilient and adaptive and
(32:53):
flexible.
And so.
And then I'm going to bring itback into having experiences as
couples that allow you to adaptand to be open and to be
flexible.
I think a lot about likeadventures that people might
have where things go wrong, andhow one couple that becomes the
(33:14):
end of it, and they lose sightof it and it can, there's no
control and it becomes a backand forth.
And then I think about othercouples that sort of embrace it
and it ends up becoming a growthopportunity, an opportunity to
be more flexible in life.
And I think that this is howthey respond, how they respond.
Yeah.
And how they support one anotherthrough that.
(33:35):
Yeah.
And I think in right now,societally, we're like, There's
a lot of desire to controlstill, obviously, and there's a
lot of pushback to that, too.
There's a lot of people thatwant to see shifts in that and
see more, see changing thesesystems.
Like, not just going into thesystem and tweaking part of the
system, but redoing the wholesystem itself, potentially.
(33:56):
Yeah, I think we have a lot ofthat coming.
Huh.
Yeah.
For a minute, for good or bad orwhatever that looks like.
Right.
Yeah.
It's time for some change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's happening.
Hold on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The perspective, the attitude,what we're able to do with it,
(34:16):
but at the heart of all of it isthis regulation, the ability to
regulate, and that is so tied toour environment and you're able
to take people back there andreestablish that.
And to me, that is.
Really powerful work and workthat's just going to keep
catching on.
Yeah, thank you.
And I think I'll give you anexample as it comes up because
(34:37):
maybe it's helpful to get.
So I had a couple, this waslike, oh, maybe three years ago.
I was living in Bend, Oregon fora little while.
And.
Where that's where I was.
This was before I was a licenseand I was working.
Yeah, under a supervisor overthere.
And thankfully this person waswilling to like, let me go out
and with clients.
And again, a lot of the clientsover there would ask me like,
(34:58):
Hey, can we go outside today?
We really, we really want to dothat.
We'll meet at the office.
So I had one couple.
That I walked down to the ChutesRiver and we sat on some rocks
on the river and, you know, I'mchecking in.
It's just, you know, you'realways checking in, right?
And you're kind of feeling wherepeople are at and making sure
people feel safe.
And and we sat down on the rocksand then it started to rain.
(35:19):
The clouds get, not a lot, butit started to drip a little.
And It was just this interestingmoment of me, me being like,
okay, maybe they're gonna wantto bail on this and maybe I, you
know, maybe this is, I was kindof nervous about being outside
with them in this setting.
And sure enough, they just said,you know what, we're good.
It's fine.
Let's all sit here.
(35:40):
It wasn't cold or anything.
And they started to laugh, andthen the rain came down, and it
became like this, somethingshifted in them, they had been
fighting a lot, and suddenly,like, they were having this
experience of slight discomfort,but also an aliveness, and a
sense to sort of take thesethings that, maybe these things
that often were control issues,and suddenly realize we don't
(36:00):
have control.
It's kind of getting wet.
We're okay with that, and we'rehaving, and we're actually
seeing each other.
Differently now in a way that'sopening up.
And that was that.
There wasn't a lot I did thereother than to be in that space
with them in that moment andlater we kind of reflected on
that though.
So yeah.
Yeah.
The, the, those are the types ofthings that are so rich and and
(36:22):
get provided.
I mean, it always seems like theright thing gets provided at the
right time.
I mean, there's a synchronicityto some of the things that I've
done with the horses and withnature and people to that it
just, it just shows up.
I love that you said that word.
Yeah, because that that is verytrue the synchronicity of, you
(36:43):
know, being out in nature and Ialso had a client once where we
were sitting by a river and itwas one of the last sessions we
had and a group of ducks justkind of swam right up to us and
literally sat there that we'dnever happened before and we
just looked at the ducks and wetalked about what, and then the
(37:03):
memory came up around the clientlike feeding the ducks with a
grandparent many years earlier.
And that how important thatperson was to them and we really
use that moment to kind of talkabout our relationship and what
was ahead for this person and itwas really beautiful moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lots of moments like that.
(37:24):
Yeah.
Well, I'm, I'm feeling like ourconversation feels pretty
complete.
Is there more you want to add?
You know, I just want to saythanks for having me here.
Yeah.
And yeah, and I hope that peoplewho are listening, I hope that
they take something from thisand spend maybe a little more
time outside or find a way todeepen the, deepen some kind of
(37:47):
connection with the world aroundthem.
Yeah.
Yeah, good, good words, goodwords to end with.
Yeah.
Hi, this is Ishi Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have with me Kai Brownfrom Wiser River Wellness.
Kai is a therapist and he isusing some new techniques in
ecotherapy that I wanna hear allabout.
Welcome, Kai.
Yeah, it's great to be here.
She, thanks for having me.
(00:22):
Yeah, so.
So, yeah, I, I have my ownpractice called Wise River
Wellness.
And just a little background tothe name'cause I think that
might be important.
I, in a former life I wasworking as a watershed
scientist.
I was involved in watershedrestoration.
And the short story is through alot of that work, which brought
me into connection withcommunity a lot of different
(00:44):
players come into how wepreserve our watersheds.
I realized my desire to bringpeople together and specifically
with their connection withnature.
And so as I transitioned into,into the mental health realm, I
brought forward that aspect,which I think falls in the realm
of what we know as sort ofecotherapy now.
(01:06):
And I believe ecotherapy, ifkind of to give it sort of a
definition or somewhat of anunderstanding what that looks
like oftentimes in thetherapeutic space, we focus a
lot on the human to humanrelationships in our life.
And recognizing that we actuallyhave relationships with all, all
(01:29):
sorts of life around us,oftentimes the natural world
and, and our ancestors had a lotof relationships with the
natural world, with the placesthey lived with the changing of
the seasons with the flora andthe fauna.
And so recognizing part of whatmight be happening in our world
right now is this idea of.
(01:51):
Eco anxiety this or eco griefthis reality that we are
disconnected from the worldaround us that we're, we're
moving quickly and we're notmaybe taking into the place that
we're in, in a deeper way thatallows us to feel connected.
And so yeah, I'm happy to talk alittle bit more about.
(02:11):
Where I, where that comes in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That seems really important.
I'm thinking back to one of myother previous podcasts and
something someone said about youcan't understand the organism
unless you understand theenvironment, which I think is a
very true, very, very generalstatement.
But, you know, as it applies towhat you just said, our
(02:32):
environment as a species isreally shifted and that
disconnect yeah.
Has certainly caused and hadlots of impact on how we respond
and react to things.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the majority of peoplenow spend quite a lot of time on
screens and artificialinteractions with machines and
(02:55):
various things.
And there's a lot of, there's alot of when we think of sort of
the somatic piece to therapy.
So being in our bodies, likewhat's it like to be embodied in
the world?
We have a very cognitiveculture.
We have a very sort of headyculture and to be in a garden,
to have your hands in the soil,to watch the plants go from a
(03:16):
seed to an actual vegetable orcrop of sorts, to watch a river
through the year and to see thedifference in the water level,
the changes or the difference inthe trees.
This gives us an opportunity tofeel not only the changes in
nature, but to reflect alongthose changes with our own
lives.
It's very powerful.
(03:39):
It's like an anchoring force.
I know.
I know those things are in mylife.
They're very grounding and veryanchoring.
So part of what you're doing isevidence based taking people out
on a trail.
Can you tell me more about that?
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So it You know, it's, and I, Iwanna say it maybe seems very
(03:59):
new, but it's not.
It's actually something we've,again, we've been doing a long
time, we just aren't doing it asmuch anymore.
I think in the, in the pandemic,a lot of people discovered
nature again, the, the rise inpeople being outside.
I don't have the actualstatistics on that, but it just
seemed like, from what I heard,from my community here in
Oregon, a lot more people werewanting to be outside a lot of
trails got more busy.
(04:21):
And yeah, people are starting tosee the benefits of the fresh
air, fresh, fresh experiences innature.
And so part of that for me, andalso part of that is that in the
and I think about even thetherapy space, we're often
sitting in a room or sitting ona couch.
We're not really moving a wholelot.
We're looking, we're underlights.
Often, some places it's evenfluorescent lights.
(04:42):
And even as the therapist, Irecognize I can't sit that long.
It's a long time to sit.
And I have clients where I sortof invite them in.
I'm like, hey, would we want tomove our bodies more?
Would we want to go on a walk?
Let's, let's mix it up.
And even the act of justwalking.
So I think about.
Oh, I think two years ago a bookcame out, and I can't, I can't
recall the author at the moment,but it was a walk and talk book,
(05:03):
and it talked a lot about thetherapeutic benefits of walk and
talk.
Just getting out and walkingwith your clients, how that
bilateral movement is almostsimilar to EMDR.
That's right.
Yeah.
And so I'm just taking that.
I have that idea only taking ita step further.
Like, let's do that with theintention of being in nature.
And let's use the journey on thetrail.
(05:25):
What's it like to go on a trailwith all the bends and the
curves are up the hill or downthe hill?
What do you notice in your bodyas you're walking?
What do you notice around you?
How do you open your vision?
So, so often where our vision isso focused, Directly in front of
us.
And when we cast our vision to awider view, we actually create
more space in our experience tofeel the things that are arising
(05:46):
for us.
Yeah.
So these are just some examples.
That's an interesting pointabout the perspective and the
widening because as I've spent alot of time with horses.
I know that my awareness for anysmall movement in the distance
has sharpened, and that myawareness of looking.
(06:07):
Looking peripherally muchfurther because I'm with them
has changed because I'm withthem and that's the way they
see.
So, you know what you're sayingmakes a lot of sense that it did
it definitely broadens thingsand I'm sure there's lots of
metaphor that happens out there,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
(06:27):
I'm glad you brought that pointup.
Yeah, so like a great example ofthat is when I, when I consider
like, how do we, what is it liketo work through grief, you know,
recognizing in our culture,grief is something that we are,
we don't have a lot oftraditions for that.
We don't have a lot of guidance,like what it's like to have
grief.
loss and grief in community.
And a lot of people are oftenhesitant to even reach out
(06:50):
regarding grief.
So nature can be really powerfulfor that.
The ability to see that, ohlook, we're in a season of
winter.
Recently here in Oregon, youknow, we're coming out of
Getting closer to spring and soas we move through winter we can
actually use that metaphor ofnoticing the trees falling back,
the leaves falling off, thingsopening up.
Sometimes we have that sense ofsorrow that shows up that time
(07:13):
of year and that going in andthen the recognition that things
will come back.
Like life is like prevails, lifecomes forward abundant again and
it's actually just part of acycle of being being human and
being connected to, you know,the ebb and flows of the natural
world as well.
Yeah, I've often felt that inthe garden too, as you see the
(07:33):
flowers die back and then as youlearn more about plants or as I
have learned more about plants,noticing that like some, like a
peony, a peony can live 100years, you know, a rose maybe
30, a marigold one season.
So yeah, there's that, there'sthat difference of of all the
variations of, of life and howlong.
(07:58):
You know, bugs live, how longdifferent plants live, how long
different people live.
Yeah, and just, I think, to addto that too, like, again, going
back to sort of the, and again,I do still do therapy in an
office, and I think you canhave, you can't have a site
ecotherapy in an office, you canhave plants in your office, you
can have even just thediscussion of nature and what
(08:20):
that's like in people's lives.
For some people, nature can beactually scary, or they can have
They can have memories of naturebeing darker, harder in their
lives as well.
So I want to bring in thatbecause I recognize that not to
make the assumption that natureis just, you know, easy for
people or always connecting, butit's more, what is it taking us
(08:41):
to?
And can we come back to it?
Maybe it is, maybe there is anexperience that was challenging
with nature and that even can bea part of the healing to kind of
go back out in nature and bewith that and sort of use that
as part of the process.
Like an exposure.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I hadn't thought about thatperspective because it's so far
from, you know, from my ownexperience.
(09:02):
So, if you're doing a lot ofthis you know, Carissa who
connected us.
She and I have had several talksabout evidence based versus
theory based with equineassisted therapy.
And I'm kind of curious abouthow that plays in with the
ecotherapy too.
Like, is it a lot harder to beevidence based rather than
(09:26):
theory based?
And, and how do you, how do youwalk?
with that?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I, so I took a training outof so again, I would say my
training from nature has comefrom the formal training.
I'd say it was being ascientist, being a hydrologist,
and so really knowing, like, thescience of ecosystems and really
(09:50):
kind of diving into systemsthinking.
When I was in school that wassort of the beginning.
This was several, many years, 15years ago or something at this
point.
But when I was doing my firstmaster's that was when science
was starting to say, Hey, this,we have this reduct, we're
really reductionist.
We're not really integratedhere.
Like a biologist is not workingwith the chemist.
They're not working with ahydrologist.
(10:11):
So at that time, there's a lotof effort to cross collaborate
and start to actually look at,like, how all these sciences
interact through systemsthinking.
And I'm losing my train ofthought there.
Okay, evidence based and theorybased and coming from a
scientific background.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, so so the evidence ofHang on one second, I'm going to
(10:37):
come back to it.
Totally take your time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let me see here.
Yeah, so I think where I wasgoing with that was just the,
the, the evidence that we haveof ecosystem interaction and how
we know these ecosystemsinteract.
And then.
We start to put the human beinginto that.
Like, okay, what's the evidencethat we know about the human
(10:58):
being in ecosystems?
And so I decided to add to thatthrough through therapy by doing
a training through PacificaUniversity.
They have an ecotherapycertificate.
And that training was, washelpful for me in the sense that
it brought me to a lot of theevidence based research, which
there is a whole lot out there,actually.
And A lot of it actually comesout of Japan, there's actually a
(11:22):
lot of movement there in theJapanese culture, they, they now
highly value their forests somuch so that they have a,
they've taken forestry, andthey've taken the health
department and they've combinedthem, and so they sort of have
this idea of forest medicine.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's, that's potent.
(11:42):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and what they'll do in,in, in Japan is they'll actually
prescribe you, okay, we'represcribing you for your mental
health to go out into the forestand to walk, and to do what in
Japanese it's called shinrinroku, which basically means
forest bathing.
Mm hmm.
And so there, there's actuallyquite a lot of evidence for this
(12:03):
within that culture.
And then there's also been a lotof research moving forward in
the United States around, youknow, what are the benefits with
people's anxiety when they spenda little bit more time in
nature, or their depression whenthey spend more time in nature.
Yeah, really big, really bigstuff.
So there's no problem withinsurance covering just because
(12:29):
Whatever you're doing normallyas a therapist in the office,
you're doing it the same withthe same evidence based criteria
when you're on a trail or whenyou take people out.
Well, that's a great question ora great point you bring up.
So there is a, there is achallenge with insurance and
that's actually probably one ofthe biggest conversations people
(12:49):
are having around this and oneof the big, for some, stopgap.
So reason being is insurance isreally concerned with HIPAA
compliance often.
And so one of the ways thatpeople work with that is they
meet, insurance requires us tomeet at the office.
So people will often meet at theoffice and then you'll have like
a walk and talk form or someoutdoor form that basically your
(13:13):
client says, yeah, that I wouldlike to do that.
They sign that form and thenthat allows you to, to leave the
office and to go out.
On your walk or out in natureback to the office but that
being said, I think that's a bigchallenge.
Like, I think there are actuallya lot of therapists that are not
using insurance if they reallywant to do this work because to
take a client out into thewilderness or to meet them in
(13:35):
the wilderness becomes achallenge with insurance.
And so one of the ways Inavigate that is I, I do do the
meet at the office or I, or Ihave some clients that
unfortunately I, I might writethem a super bill.
And I might be meeting them outin the woods.
And so that way I'm not directlyinvolved with their insurance,
but still try to provide them away to get reimbursed if need
(13:57):
be.
Do you, it seemed like in ourlast conversation to prep for
this, which was quite a whileago, we both got kind of busy
and I dropped the ball.
But it seemed like we had someconversation around retreats or
creating workshops or thingsthat could bring in more
(14:18):
activities from primitivecultures that were really good
for brain health that kind offit into this model that we're
talking about.
You have you had some ideasabout that or some visioning or
even some experience?
I have.
Yeah, I definitely have.
So one thing I've done the lasttwo years, I should mention is
(14:40):
there's a festival up nearoutside Portland called Love
Oregon.
And it's a festival thatpromotes all, it's, it's a lot
of people from Portland, but itpromotes all things Oregon, the
food of Oregon, it promotesmusic.
And then there's also like amental health and a wellness
side to it.
And they've invited me to comeup I'm also, I also play music.
(15:04):
So I I've gone up to do that,but the main thing I've done is
actually led a workshop aroundembodiment in nature.
And so what I've done thereessentially, and this is
evolving is I've been able totake people and, and a group of
people, and we actually.
First, we start off and we talkabout, okay, what are like
(15:25):
pivotal experiences for you inthat natural world?
What's your relationship to thenatural world like?
And it's so interesting becausepeople very much tend to have
these formative experiences,like, oh, I remember that tree
in my yard, or I remember when Iused to go out in the field with
a grandparent or the, or somefruit that we used to get And
and so forth.
Now some people might come fromreally urban environments and
(15:47):
maybe have very littleexperience, but it may be a park
that they used to go to, likejust that little park or
something nearby.
And then I start to talk topeople about what's it going to
be like today, as, as we movethrough the woods, we're going
to slow down and I'm actuallygoing to have you all go off in
different directions.
And I'm going to have youlisten.
deeply to nature, listen to therhythms.
(16:09):
This is where some kind of musiccomes in.
Like what, what are the, some ofthe rhythms of the sounds or the
music that you hear in nature?
And then how do you also sort ofembody it?
Like when you're walking, I wantyou to walk barefoot
potentially, and I want you towalk like maybe you're an
animal.
Or maybe you're swaying like atree.
Or maybe there's a plant you seeand you notice how it moves and
(16:31):
I want you to move with it.
So Nate, there's so muchmovement in the natural world.
And so what's it like toactually try to take some of
that movement and those soundsand bring that into your body?
People have really differentexperiences with this, but often
they come back and there'sgenerally just like a sense of
like, wow, I felt like I openedup.
I felt like I was freer.
I felt.
(16:51):
Maybe a little more wild even.
I think sometimes we feel thatit's, we can't be wild and we
can't be free in our bodies.
We have, we're so often soconstricted in how we can move.
So it's playful.
It's fun.
It's expansive in that way.
That's really beautiful andsomatic.
And, you know, it reminds me ofsome of the things that I've
learned about, you know, how wecan connect with horses too.
(17:15):
We can connect with nature thatway.
But giving people permission tomove in their body and to
imitate nature is, I mean, for alot of people, I know that's
just got to be huge, huge.
But it's also where there's anintersection between that and
different types of dance, like,you know, in modern dance and in
(17:35):
ecstatic dance, sometimes withprompts.
They will talk about similarthings and in learning how
horses and animals connect, theyoften connect through rhythm,
which is something that is outof our awareness a lot.
And even falling in step with,with a horse or with other
people, that rhythm that'screated is also takes us there.
(17:59):
Like all of these things definethose connections and
environments.
So I can see how incredibly richthat would be.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and again, I think that ina, in a somewhat mechanized
world, it's in a linear worldwhere we sort of see things in a
mechanical and in a linear way.
(18:20):
It's sort of this opportunity tosay.
Let's like let's let's move in alet's move with the natural
rhythms of things like let's belet it go Let's be a little open
and free in this And also I saidI spent spoke to that word
linear.
I Nature is so cyclical.
It's so it's so rhythmic andthings aren't always linear and
(18:44):
and so Again, when we think ofsystems, we think of like
feedback loops, we think of, youknow, things, things shifting.
And so recognizing, like, Iguess when we go back to grief,
or we go back to some of theseemotions, that these aren't, the
healing process is never linearin, in, in addressing these
things.
Not at all.
(19:05):
I, you know, I, I totally relateto that.
I don't know if I'd shared thiswith you or not, but I've said
it a couple of times now on thepodcast.
I have my youngest son passedaway three years ago.
And the roller coaster of thegrief that I have experienced
where there's just it's just,it's just so sad.
No control, no bounds.
(19:26):
You don't know when it's goingto hit you, where it's going to
take you, when your body's goingto say, okay, we can't do this
anymore and still function andshut it all down only to have it
like erupt at the most, youknow, unexpected time all over
again, like I totally get howit's not linear at all and
allowing that.
(19:47):
I'm so grateful that I wasallowed to allow that, and that
I've had some help guiding methrough some of it too, but
yeah, huge stuff, huge.
Mm hmm, yeah, yeah.
Had you been in, had youutilized any, any nature in
your, in your healing process,or any rituals?
Yeah.
(20:07):
Every single day.
You know, I'm fortunate enoughto have a creek in my backyard
to have a park down the streetwhere the creek is, and I would
walk there every day with mydog.
I would go, you know, just goingout to take care of the horses
puts me there following themaround, you know, and then
seasonally gardening.
(20:29):
And then all of that, like Ihave, because I'm autistic,
because I have a reallysensitive nervous system,
because I've had a ton oftrauma, somehow my intuition has
had me arrange my life where allof these things have helped
tremendously.
I can't imagine going throughwhat I've gone through and being
(20:49):
in an urban environment withoutaccess to these things every
day, multiple times a day.
I would, I don't know that Iwould have survived.
Yeah, yeah, I hear you.
And I love that you brought upyour nervous system because I
think when it comes down to itthat's a lot of the evidence
based research around nature isthat it really gives our, our
system, we're co regulating withnature.
(21:10):
And I think when I'm out therewith my, with clients, I
recognize like, rather than, Youknow, in the therapeutic room,
in the room, I tend to, I workwith couples and I work with
individuals, occasionallyfamilies, and a lot of that work
is co regulation in the room,teaching them how to co regulate
myself, working on my presenceand co regulation with them.
(21:32):
Sometimes, though, as atherapist, that You know, it can
it can also it can bechallenging, right?
We're taking things on.
We're really embodying that andthat can become a lot for the
sort of the single individual innature.
I feel this incredible supportfrom the natural world around me
as if I'm Hey, I'm just bringingyou into this space and this
(21:53):
space is going to naturally.
Be available for co regulation.
The trees are going to help youco regulate.
The wind is going to help you coregulate.
Just the, the lack of noise andsound and the natural sounds or
industrial sort of car sounds,the more natural sounds we hear,
there's really somethingpeaceful about that.
Yeah, it's huge.
I'm getting goosebumps as you'retalking about that.
(22:15):
Because it's like, it's like thecontainer, right?
But it's not an artificialcontainer.
It's our natural container.
It's our natural environment.
And like you kind of started offsaying, when we're cut off from
that, like, of course, we'rehaving trouble regulating.
Of course, we're having troubledealing with our traumas.
(22:36):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and I think our I thinkour ancestors They had an
intuition for this.
They definitely had an intuitionfor going and visiting places
and having these sort of ritualsof returning to places and using
places to offer prayer and offerofferings and various ways to,
(22:58):
to sit in that.
One thing I'm on a journey to isespecially getting into this is
sort of looking at like, whatare my indigenous roots?
Like, what are, what's mybackground?
Recognizing that one of theimportant pieces about the
ecotherapy is that we, we, It'sour own journey to find what our
ancestry is like, and not tonecessarily, we can, we can
(23:18):
often appreciate and we can pullfrom other ancestries, but often
it's a journey of what's ourslike, and how do we bring that
and so I just started this butI'm very I have a lot of Irish
in my background and so I'm veryinterested in like Celtic
shamanism, and really like what.
What was involved in the, inthat ancestry in terms of how
people would go out in the hillsand spend many days in the
(23:39):
hills, many days sort of goingout on spiritual quests in order
to come back with more awarenesswith a, with a deeper sense of,
of their place.
In the world, so not justconnecting to environment but
connecting to your DNA throughyour ancestry specifically in
those rituals.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, yeah, really good stuff.
(24:02):
Yeah, yeah.
So, what other thoughts do youhave on on the subject?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, a big piece, too.
And I will see where I go withthis direction is just so I when
I go back to my science yearsdoing the science.
One of the things is I was I waslooking a lot of climate change
(24:24):
at that time, and I was deep inthe research.
I was at the University ofArizona, and there were some
people in that in thatuniversity that were on the Like
the UN panel on climate change.
So we're talking like top levelclimate scientists and hearing
about a lot of things that arenow happening, like an increase
in wildfires more erratic eventshappening in terms of weather
(24:48):
events and things.
So hearing about all thathappening and now living in that
more and I recognize that Yeah.
If we don't reconnect people tothe importance of the world
around us, to the natural world,we have no chance in shifting
these things either.
And so not only is thisimportant for the individual
(25:12):
healing, but I think it's alsoimportant to be able to continue
to be in, to kind of continue tobe in concert with the planet
around us as well.
And so for me as a personaljourney, it's been a way to
continue to do that work, but todo it on a much more one on one
basis with people and to reallybring people back into.
(25:32):
And I have a lot of, I have alot of clients and maybe this is
because of Oregon, but I have alot of clients that sort of
already show up and at leasthave some appreciation, but
often, but every now and thenI'll have people who, as I
surprise them when I'm like, Oh,Hey, do you want to go out and
do you want to spend some timeon a trail?
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
And there's almost like thisKind of like we're not used to
(25:53):
that.
We're used to being inside,like, you know, therapy's always
in a couch and in an office.
And one of the things that'sreally cool is when we go
outside, we have to step over,sometimes we step over, you
know, I try not to do too crazyof hikes, but I mean, sometimes
we do go over rocks or we stepup stuff, and there's a, there's
a shift there where We're bothtrying to get up that thing, or
(26:14):
we're both trying to move aroundthat trail, and there's a
lightning, the relationshipbetween us becomes a little less
formal, a little bit more real,human in a way, and people tend
to feel like they can open upmore, because we're both on,
we're both on this adventuretogether as well.
That makes, that makes a lot ofsense to me.
(26:35):
That makes a lot of sense to me.
I know I keep bringing it backto horses, but that's, you know,
that's what I know.
That's your world.
Yeah.
There are also studies thatthere are endorphins released
when you travel in a herd.
And I've myself have experiencedit.
And there were some studies thatthey did with some veterans
actually here in Oregon.
(26:56):
Where walking in a herd, if youhave pain, the endorphins that
are released end up taking careof the pain, at least
temporarily.
And so that's a little bit likethere's a joining of what you're
talking about, not just ofopening up, but of connecting,
of walking together.
Like that act is is reallypowerful.
(27:18):
You, you brought up somethinginteresting too about like
working with the individual andhow it applies to us taking care
of the planet in that, in thatsame way.
And this might be a little bit,you know, throwing you a curve
ball here.
I know that you're a you know,that you work a lot with
couples.
(27:38):
And so an idea that's gonethrough my head quite a bit is
we have a lot of, problems inour romantic relationships, our
couple relationships that are,you know, I mean, you could
probably name five that mostpeople you see have five issues
that are very common, maybemore.
And I'm starting to see a lot ofthose things as cultural issues,
(28:00):
not really necessarilyindividual issues.
I mean, they're individualissues also, but by Healing them
in individuals.
It seems like there's a way totake that out to make shifts in
the culture as well.
Have you?
I mean, does anything occur toyou as I say that?
Or have you even thought aboutthat sort of thing?
(28:23):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And I'm trying to think of whereto sort of dive in there.
Definitely.
Yeah, I mean, I think Yeah,obviously with the well with
thinking about the regulationpiece right and finding a way to
regulate.
So we're, we're in a very selfregulating culture, I would say
like many of us have to selfregulate we don't often have co
regulation opportunities.
(28:44):
And if we do, they might be withour primary partner.
So now we have a lot of pressurewe have this person that we have
to regulate with and we may nothave a lot of other resources so
we have to be good at that.
And if we're not good at that,it's really hard.
It's really hard.
A lot of pressure on couplesthese days with limited
resources.
So I think as the individual canfind sacred spaces, spaces and
(29:10):
getting back to being outside,or again, even being around
plants, being around, you know,recognizing there's a lot of
connection other than the sortof human to human, it allows
people to build that sense ofregulation and resiliency to
then bring that inner peacetowards relationships.
Another piece too is I'veactually taken couples outside.
So I do a lot of, I do in thesummer, in the, people are
(29:33):
really into it.
I might do it in the rainyseason, but it'd be a little
more tricky here maybe.
But I've done a lot of work inparks and outside in long rivers
with couples too.
And it really is feelsdifferent.
I think people show up we'resitting under a tree and we use
that tree to start the sessionlike notice the tree above you
(29:53):
notice the way it moves noticehow you what's showing up for
you and your body and it'sreally amazing how the two
people can use that to start.
The process of regulating andcome back to that.
So once again, it's not just me.
It's It's the environment.
I'm in it's supporting thatright?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's big too.
(30:14):
Wow.
So I'm not sure if I totallyanswer your question there if
you might kind of come back tothat.
Yeah Yeah, I guess some of mythoughts on it get a little bit
Yeah, more complicated.
Well, control control comes up,you know, front and center
because that's an issue that somany people deal with.
And in what I've learned formyself, it's usually about
(30:38):
safety and trust.
And so if that exists in a lotof if, if too much control or
illegitimate control or, orgrabs for control, are part of
Disfunction in a relationshipyou know, looking at our
culture, how our culture likeperpetuates that how our culture
(31:04):
is a reflection of that, or isthe relationship a reflection of
how that plays out in ourculture.
Yeah, that's a great question.
So like, is this coming fromthat's not kind of the couple
and then moving out into societyor is it coming from society of
back?
It's probably, I'm just throwingit out there.
(31:24):
It's probably both to someextent.
They're probably interweaving.
Definitely.
Yeah.
And so I guess the second partof that is, as we address it.
In either place, whether that'sin the workplace or in some
other larger place in ourculture, or we address it in the
individuals, can we take theintention.
You know, that this will affectand that either the individual
(31:51):
or the culture will respond towhat happens with either the
individual or the culture.
I mean, they're tied together inmy mind.
They're tied together.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, I think from a lot of mytraining and background, just
recognizing like how muchcontext affects our mental
health, right, who, where we'refrom, like so much of that.
(32:12):
So it is very much tiedtogether.
But I do think like.
It comes when I okay when Ibring it into the couple I, I
sort of envision, like peoplecome in to the to me and to see
me and it's often like you knowI'm not, we're not going to
like.
We're not going to stop.
(32:32):
You're not going to stopfighting.
You're not going to stop havingissues.
You're going to get better atrepairing those issues.
You're going to get better atacceptance and you're going to
get more skilled with, okay, I'magain, back to like, I'm
dysregulated.
How do I reregulate?
And what are the methods that wedo for that?
And so much of that is beingresilient and adaptive and
(32:53):
flexible.
And so.
And then I'm going to bring itback into having experiences as
couples that allow you to adaptand to be open and to be
flexible.
I think a lot about likeadventures that people might
have where things go wrong, andhow one couple that becomes the
(33:14):
end of it, and they lose sightof it and it can, there's no
control and it becomes a backand forth.
And then I think about othercouples that sort of embrace it
and it ends up becoming a growthopportunity, an opportunity to
be more flexible in life.
And I think that this is howthey respond, how they respond.
Yeah.
And how they support one anotherthrough that.
(33:35):
Yeah.
And I think in right now,societally, we're like, There's
a lot of desire to controlstill, obviously, and there's a
lot of pushback to that, too.
There's a lot of people thatwant to see shifts in that and
see more, see changing thesesystems.
Like, not just going into thesystem and tweaking part of the
system, but redoing the wholesystem itself, potentially.
(33:56):
Yeah, I think we have a lot ofthat coming.
Huh.
Yeah.
For a minute, for good or bad orwhatever that looks like.
Right.
Yeah.
It's time for some change.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's happening.
Hold on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The perspective, the attitude,what we're able to do with it,
(34:16):
but at the heart of all of it isthis regulation, the ability to
regulate, and that is so tied toour environment and you're able
to take people back there andreestablish that.
And to me, that is.
Really powerful work and workthat's just going to keep
catching on.
Yeah, thank you.
And I think I'll give you anexample as it comes up because
(34:37):
maybe it's helpful to get.
So I had a couple, this waslike, oh, maybe three years ago.
I was living in Bend, Oregon fora little while.
And.
Where that's where I was.
This was before I was a licenseand I was working.
Yeah, under a supervisor overthere.
And thankfully this person waswilling to like, let me go out
and with clients.
And again, a lot of the clientsover there would ask me like,
(34:58):
Hey, can we go outside today?
We really, we really want to dothat.
We'll meet at the office.
So I had one couple.
That I walked down to the ChutesRiver and we sat on some rocks
on the river and, you know, I'mchecking in.
It's just, you know, you'realways checking in, right?
And you're kind of feeling wherepeople are at and making sure
people feel safe.
And and we sat down on the rocksand then it started to rain.
(35:19):
The clouds get, not a lot, butit started to drip a little.
And It was just this interestingmoment of me, me being like,
okay, maybe they're gonna wantto bail on this and maybe I, you
know, maybe this is, I was kindof nervous about being outside
with them in this setting.
And sure enough, they just said,you know what, we're good.
It's fine.
Let's all sit here.
(35:40):
It wasn't cold or anything.
And they started to laugh, andthen the rain came down, and it
became like this, somethingshifted in them, they had been
fighting a lot, and suddenly,like, they were having this
experience of slight discomfort,but also an aliveness, and a
sense to sort of take thesethings that, maybe these things
that often were control issues,and suddenly realize we don't
(36:00):
have control.
It's kind of getting wet.
We're okay with that, and we'rehaving, and we're actually
seeing each other.
Differently now in a way that'sopening up.
And that was that.
There wasn't a lot I did thereother than to be in that space
with them in that moment andlater we kind of reflected on
that though.
So yeah.
Yeah.
The, the, those are the types ofthings that are so rich and and
(36:22):
get provided.
I mean, it always seems like theright thing gets provided at the
right time.
I mean, there's a synchronicityto some of the things that I've
done with the horses and withnature and people to that it
just, it just shows up.
I love that you said that word.
Yeah, because that that is verytrue the synchronicity of, you
(36:43):
know, being out in nature and Ialso had a client once where we
were sitting by a river and itwas one of the last sessions we
had and a group of ducks justkind of swam right up to us and
literally sat there that we'dnever happened before and we
just looked at the ducks and wetalked about what, and then the
(37:03):
memory came up around the clientlike feeding the ducks with a
grandparent many years earlier.
And that how important thatperson was to them and we really
use that moment to kind of talkabout our relationship and what
was ahead for this person and itwas really beautiful moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lots of moments like that.
(37:24):
Yeah.
Well, I'm, I'm feeling like ourconversation feels pretty
complete.
Is there more you want to add?
You know, I just want to saythanks for having me here.
Yeah.
And yeah, and I hope that peoplewho are listening, I hope that
they take something from thisand spend maybe a little more
time outside or find a way todeepen the, deepen some kind of
(37:47):
connection with the world aroundthem.
Yeah.
Yeah, good, good words, goodwords to end with.
Yeah.
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