December 17, 2024 • 63 mins
Talking with Sarah had my brain firing fast, and my heart joining in a grounded way.
If you dance or creat or write, If you horse or spectrum or skate or fly, If your curious...
Dont miss this conversation!!
Below is a link to a 4 min. dance that to me epitomizes parts of the conversation.
https://youtu.be/zqUwmCjfkug?si=it4wKj2DSgDumDni
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, this is Ishii Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have with me afascinating guest, Sarah French.
Sarah is a figure skating coach.
An ice dancer, and she danceswith the Ice Theater of New York
Dance Company and with the EquusProject.
(00:22):
So she dances with horses, shedances on ice, she dances
through life, and just a reallywarm welcome for you joining me
today, Sarah.
Thank you for having me.
Tell me.
A little bit about the horses.
Tell me about what your reactionwas when you were invited to do
(00:43):
this project with the horses.
I kind of came about it in.
A strange way.
So the artistic director of theEquus Projects, Joanna
Mendelshaw actually worked withme first on the ice with Ice
Theatre of New York.
There was a piece she hadchoreographed on the company in
the late 90s that we'd Pulledout of our repertory that I was
(01:05):
really excited to be a part of.
And so I worked with her inskating first and after we
finished our performance forthat piece last spring I asked
how I could keep learning fromher and she invited me to dance
With her in the studio and theneventually to be a part of the
latest performance that thecompany did in November called
(01:28):
the fable.
So starting in July we wouldtake what we call a single day
run out to the barn and startworking with horses both, you
know, on lead line and atLiberty learning how to dance
alongside an equine partner.
Wow, that just sounds absolutelyamazing.
(01:48):
Dancing with an equine partner.
What, what does that look like?
Are you connected to themenergetically?
Are the moves mirroring eachother in any way?
A lot of what I would say as adancer skill that we're using
when we work with the horses issponging kind of using their
movements to shape what we'redoing choreographically as well
(02:11):
as definitely energeticallyconnected.
But I find for myself that veryfrequently I have an easier time
connecting with animals thanwith humans, so I tend to feel
energetically connected to anycreature that I'm close to.
Okay, and I didn't mentionbefore, but you're also on the
(02:34):
autistic spectrum, correct?
Yes, I am.
And so, What you just said aboutreally connecting easily with
the animals, do you feel likethat's part of being on the
spectrum?
Is there do you noticecomparisons between you and
other dancers and how youconnect with the horses?
I'm not sure if it's necessarilylike I've always felt that way.
(02:57):
So to me, it's a natural part oflife to connect very strongly to
animals.
And my autism diagnosis camelater.
So You know, I've never reallynecessarily married the two in
my mind but I do think that I Ipick up on feelings and
(03:17):
connection with animals in a waythat's a little unique.
Yeah.
And so when you say feelings,are you, do you feel like you're
empathically connected withthem?
Like, like you get hits fromthem about their emotional
states?
I think that I do in some waystrack that information.
(03:40):
I tend to also pick up on onfeelings of people around me,
which can be very confusing ifwhat they're saying and what I'm
sensing are not congruent.
Yes, that's a word that I use alot and the horses have taught
me a lot about and it is reallyconfusing when people are saying
one thing but doing another orbehaving as if they're not upset
(04:03):
when you really can feel thatthey are.
Yes.
What are your strategies fordealing with that with people?
Generally speaking, I, I'm aperson who takes information as
it's presented to me.
So I, I have recognized withpeople that very frequently they
(04:27):
need to pretend something isfine when it's not in order for
themselves to be okay.
So I try to let the other personset the tone of that
interaction.
But I stay aware of what I'mfeeling and I honor that with my
own kind of way of handlingthings.
(04:48):
But in all reality, I'm a prettyI don't want to say isolated
person, but I'm very investedin, in protecting my emotional
space with other people.
And so very often thoseinteractions, I keep somewhat
limited because I find themstressful.
Yeah, I can understand that.
(05:08):
And, you know, as you're talkingabout it and I'm watching your
face, I, I can really relate.
And it seems like it's a giftthat you're offering as a form
of acceptance to interact withthem when they're being so
incongruent, but it comes at acost.
Is that correct?
(05:28):
That's correct.
Yes.
And part of that cost is thatyou feel like you need to
withdraw or contract or reallylimit your interactions.
Yes, it's hard to know how tooperate when things are not
consistent.
Do you have people in your lifethat you feel are congruent?
(05:50):
I do.
Yes, I have people that are, arevery willing to be transparent
with me and I'm very gratefulfor that.
Along these lines, one of thethings that's confused me for a
really, really long time is, Iwent into some therapy in my
early 20s and have been with atherapist now and then at
difficult parts of my life, andit seems like, at least with the
(06:13):
therapists I have picked, teachis that we ought to be in touch
with our feelings, that we oughtto be congruent, that people
want us to be transparent andopen, and that that's the way to
being healthy and having healthyrelationships.
And yet, Of course, this wasmostly before I realized I was
(06:35):
on the spectrum as well.
And yet finding people thatactually do those things has
been so difficult.
I would agree with this.
Yes.
Yeah.
And it's even too like this.
I've been thinking about this abit.
But like maybe I'vemisinterpreted the female heroes
(06:58):
that I see in movies and TVshows that really strong female
character that says what sheneeds to say May be very abrupt
and direct and in charge And itworks for her But I don't know.
Maybe she's really the villain.
(07:18):
Maybe she's not the heroine andi'm just twisting it up in my
mind.
Do you, do you relate to astrong female character and,
and, and how, and what do youthink about that?
I do in a lot of ways.
I am not unfamiliar in being inleadership positions within my
work, especially and I tend tobe a very direct communicator.
(07:40):
I'm not I'm not one to sugarcoatthings too much as as the phrase
is.
I think though, too, with thatin day to day life outside of a
movie, people can find that verydisrupting to their sense of how
(08:01):
they expect a woman to treatthem.
You know, I, I think there is anexpectation that there is less
directness, there is less being.
Confident with being in chargeof something.
And and I find it interesting inmy interactions with people, you
(08:22):
know, I'm a fairly short,physically small person that
participates in the arts, likeI, I'm often expect to be more.
Expected to be more pliable thanI can be.
I don't tend to make a decisionuntil I've really thought
something through.
(08:43):
And when I'm set on that, I'mvery sad.
So, in your work, beingspontaneous and like knowing
right away and just pickingsomething and going with it
isn't, isn't your normal MO?
It is and it isn't.
I find that dance requires adegree of comfort with
(09:07):
improvisation.
And in my mind, I very muchframe the structure of my time
in that I know that's coming.
And I love to improvise.
I really find that that to me issort of my emotional language in
a lot of ways is the movementthat comes from, you know, just
(09:33):
moving through space in whateverform of dancing I'm doing.
Is how I experience feeling.
And so to me, I'll frameworkthat time by I know I'm setting
aside the time that this isgoing to be what it's going to
be.
And, and I'm not going to preplan that.
But I tend to be fairlystructured as a matter of
(09:54):
necessity in the rest of my lifein order to function.
And I think that's, that's kindof that play with being a
creative person and beingautistic.
I, I require a degree ofstructure to feel secure in my
world, but once I have thatsecurity there is so much that
I, I think I can offer as acreative person.
(10:21):
Yeah.
So one of the topics that I'vethrown around a little bit is
freedom through discipline.
And it sounds like that reallyfits with what you're saying
about your life, like theorganization and other autistic
people that I've talked to.
have spoken to me about needingthe structure.
And I mean, structure is alsodiscipline and how, how
(10:45):
important it is and howupsetting it is when that gets
switched around a lot.
And I know that's my experiencetoo.
Like if I have, you know, fouror five things scheduled in a
week and three of them getmoved, I'm just like, Oh no,
what am I doing?
Yes.
I, I shared this struggle aswell.
Like when something is, is set.
(11:07):
I, I require a degree ofconsistency to that in order to
not feel very untethered.
Have people given you a lot ofgrace?
I mean, do people that you workwith mostly know you're
autistic?
Maybe this is a better question.
Comparing and contrasting work,before knowing you were autistic
and after knowing you'reautistic, is there a big
(11:28):
difference?
I think for me Learning that Iwas autistic really didn't come
with some great change to how Ioperated in the world.
I've kind of always been aperson to design life Once I had
the autonomy to do so to whatI've needed it to be.
(11:49):
And I've been involved in myindustry for my, most of my
life.
I started you know, I startedskating when I was 11 and I
started teaching it at 14.
So I've had a professionalcareer that started my first
year in high school.
And I moved into professionalperforming as a skater in a more
(12:12):
serious way with ice theaterafter I was diagnosed.
So, I've come into my world herein New York with that full
knowledge of being autistic andneeding to focus.
I don't think I've ever beenable to process that, you know,
piece of myself into a frameworkthat doesn't necessarily have a
great degree of hospitality fordifferent.
(12:33):
But I have been remarkablylucky.
In the people that I interactwith and work with and for here
being very open to accommodatingwhat I need to be successful.
And I've been lucky in a fewother work situations as well as
a coach working with people thathave allowed me to prioritize.
(12:55):
What I need to be successful inthat environment and really kind
of push me forward in those waysso that I could do my best work.
And I'm very open about, youknow, that I'm autistic.
This is who I am.
You know, I'm also gay and I amvery clear about that with
(13:17):
people and in, you know,Especially within the skating
world.
Those are not things we talkabout.
I've noticed and so I havereally made a significant effort
in my career to be forthcomingand to be very transparent about
who I am.
(13:37):
Because I want the nextgenerations past mine to have a
framework of somebody who'scompletely comfortable with that
about themselves.
And, and I've been so fortunate.
remarkably thrilled to have somany students over the years
that have felt secured theiridentities and in their
(13:59):
neurotypes to be open about thatthemselves because they have
somebody to support them inthat.
So you are really consciouslysetting an example.
Yes.
I'm listening to your wordchoice and, and kind of the
attitude to about your life andyour work.
And everything is framed verypositively.
(14:21):
Like, like the words you'rechoosing to describe things are
so beautiful.
I was recently listening to aYouTube, the, Diary of a CEO.
I just love this guy.
And they were talking aboutpeople's stories, and how either
you could have a victim story,or a hero story, Or you know,
life is kind of against me, butI keep fighting it kind of
(14:43):
story.
And it strikes me and, andsaying that you're lucky had a
lot to do with what manifestedin your life.
And so I really was picking upon that as you were talking
about it.
And it looks like it's reallyworked for you.
You have a very full, veryaccomplished of life.
(15:04):
I do.
I also think though, to I, Iframe my overall situation as
I'm a person who has survived alot and, and I've been through
some fairly unimaginabledarkness in my life.
And I have made a very deepchoice to not be a person that
is going to perpetuate that andthat wants a better world than
(15:28):
the one I've known.
And to me, the small ways I canaffect change are through my
creative pursuits and throughthe way that I choose to
interact with others.
And I recognize that, especiallyespecially with my work on the
ice where I, you know, forbetter or worse, have a degree
(15:52):
of notoriety and being a publicfigure in that I have the
ability to affect a change thatI could have used deeply and
desperately when I was a youngperson.
So there is a burden to that,that I take very seriously and
that I care immensely about.
(16:13):
You are not the first personI've interviewed who has that
experience.
And I think it's, It's sopowerful and so focused.
I really appreciate that.
So can you tell me, I, I went tothe website where Joanne Joanne
and the Equus Project are andsome of her other projects, and
(16:35):
I will be interviewing her laterthis week.
I'm super excited about thattoo.
Yes.
Can you, I, I can't get a realvisual on, What happens with the
horses and where what's theaudience and and how big is the
audience?
And can you can you tell me alittle bit more about all of
that and your experience withit?
(16:56):
Yes, I can.
So I generally speaking, theEquus projects doesn't own any
horses.
So we're always working incollaboration with horse owners
and their herds.
And the, the place I have mostlyinteracted with this has been at
(17:19):
a therapeutic riding barn in NewJersey where we you know, really
intensively honer practice ofdancing with horses and We
performed there in November.
The audience was a mix of peoplewho I'm going to refer to as
horse people and dance people.
(17:40):
Okay.
That makes sense.
Yes.
And, and there is crossoverwithin those worlds.
I think you know, for manypeople, I think dance has been a
part of their lives.
And I think also, My impressionhas been that within the worlds
(18:01):
of, you know, horses and workingwith working with equines
there's more womenproportionately who are also
more likely to have experience,even if it was, you know, just
minimally in childhood withdance.
And so I think there's, there'salways sort of a little bit of,
(18:22):
you know, somebody has someInteractions with dancing
sometime in their life.
I think it's a very humanactivity that we do.
And I think it's, it's quitewonderful in that.
But you definitely can tellthere are some people that are
there to see how theinteractions go with the horses.
And there are some people thatare there to see dancing.
(18:46):
And I find that veryinteresting.
And, it's, it's been such aremarkable experience for me.
Danced very seriously when I wasa kid and then, as I
transitioned onto the ice, Idanced as, you know, more of a
cross training to complimentthat aspect that I was pushing
(19:08):
ahead in competitively.
And then after.
retiring from competitiveskating at the ripe old age of
19, which sounds absurd, but isconsidered old in our sport.
I transitioned into a brief, butimportant to me, professional
dance career.
And then I really did none ofthese things until from the time
I was about 22 until I was in myearly thirties.
(19:33):
I, I only taught skating duringthat time.
I didn't.
Didn't perform, didn't reallyskate for myself.
Didn't take dance classes.
I also was going through somereally substantial health issues
during that time.
And you know, for better orworse, my one marketable skill I
have is that I'm very good atcoaching.
(19:54):
So as a means to survive, I'vealways taught, but I do love it,
Do you find that your directnessreally helps you with that?
I am very good at being directwith my students, and yes I
think, I think teaching comesnaturally to me in a lot of ways
because I do genuinely careabout what I do and I do
(20:17):
genuinely care about my studentsvery, very much.
It has been my, ethos as a coachthat it is my job to facilitate
their version of success.
It has nothing to do with myneed for personal growth.
Ego of having successfulstudents in whatever permutation
(20:37):
I'm teaching.
It has everything to do withwhat they consider successful in
their journey.
And I have had some skaterswhere that is, you know, I want
to be an internationallycompetitive athlete and I want
to go to an Olympic games and Ihave worked with skaters in that
capacity.
And I have worked with skatersthat say, I really just need an
(20:58):
hour of the day, you know, oncea week.
To set aside for my, you know,mental health of this is
somewhere I want to be insomewhere.
I feel supported and I just needthat touch in and I expect to
never be good at it.
I've had skaters where theironly goal is just to learn how
to glide, which is shockinglydifficult.
(21:18):
It's hard.
We lose sight of that when wesee you know, the highest levels
of what can be done in thatdiscipline.
The difficulty and the hardestthing about it is making it look
so very easy and so fluid and soeffortless and I have been, I
think because I'm autistic, ableto really hone in on the details
(21:42):
of how to make that happen forpeople.
That's what I was going to askyou, you know, I taught some
very beginning level dance attimes and kids gymnastics and
things like that.
And yeah, yeah, And beginningwriting as well.
And I seem to have.
a focus on the importance oflike how a muscle is held or how
(22:05):
the isolation is that I don'thear other teachers talking
about.
And so I've kind of wondered,like thought that that was
probably part of the autism andcould see where it would, if you
have that and you're using that,how it would definitely set you
apart, you know, at a differentlevel.
Yes.
I think I think in a lot ofways.
(22:27):
One of the things that Istruggle with a lot as an
autistic person is sensoryissues.
And one of the things that Ithink is an incredible asset to
me as a dancer and as a coach ismy sensory issues.
I am so attuned to small changesand my hearing is incredibly
sensitive.
(22:48):
So when I'm working on the iceI'm tracking, spatially, people
by sound a lot on the rink andthe sound of their blades on the
ice, and I know the sound ofeach of my individual students
I'm working with which does meanthat I know when they mess up a
turn and I'm not facing them,and they're on the other side of
the rink, and they think Ididn't see it, and they're fine,
(23:10):
and I'm like, They're notbecause I'm like, I heard that
again.
But, but I'm very aware of howpeople utilize their bodies in
space.
And and in some ways, I thinkit's an incredible asset when I
have the removal of being ableto analyze that.
(23:33):
And in some ways when I'm tryingto learn movement, it makes it
incredibly hard.
I pick up choreography, I thinkslightly slowly compared to
other people because I'm payingattention.
To so many details and I have toseparate out which things matter
and which things don't I don'tpick up the broad gesture of it
(23:53):
first and refine it.
I see all of the small stuff.
And I have to put that togetherin my mind.
You can't turn it off.
I totally get that.
I it can be so distracting.
Yeah.
I, I understand that one too.
So you have, I love hearingabout the superpowers.
I just, I just love hearingabout them, but they are, they
are two sides of a coin forsure.
(24:16):
There's compensations that needto happen.
I'm curious about this.
I've really struggled with someunderstanding some of my blind
spots, especially socially, andyou feel like you understand
your blind spots, all of them.
I am not sure if I do or notbecause I think the nature of
something we're blind to is thatwe may not recognize it.
(24:38):
But I am very aware of both mydifficulties with interacting
with people and, and I thinksometimes that is because I've
had experiences where I'm justabsolutely slapped in the face
by the reality of something.
What do you mean by that?
(24:58):
I mean where I will, I will notrecognize that.
I am in a situation with anotherperson where they are wildly
uncomfortable with me forwhatever reason or I have said
the wrong thing or I have notinteracted in the expected way
(25:18):
and it will be someone elsepointing out to me you know,
this person is upset about thisbecause and I actually had A
really interesting experiencewith this when I was directing a
program, a skating program at arink where there were some
people in that work environmentthat knew me for several years
(25:39):
and knew that I'm, you know, I'ma very open minded.
I'm a very, nonjudgmental kindof person.
But I also tend to beinadvertently intimidating to
people, especially in thecontext of skating.
And, I don't know if that isthat my default facial
(26:04):
expression is fairly nonexpressive or that I simply come
into what I'm doing at thispoint in my career with a lot of
credentials behind me that canscare people off a little bit
from believing that I'm asapproachable as I feel I am.
But there was a skater at therink that Was absolutely
(26:27):
convinced.
I hated her.
Because I wasn't outwardlyfriendly.
And the reality is that I wassimply blind to recognizing how
she needed to be interactedwith.
And some, you know, anotherperson that skated at the rink
pointed out to me that there wasan issue with this, for this
(26:49):
person.
Person and that I shouldprobably, you know, address
that.
And so I chose to do so in myusual way of extremely directly.
I sent her an email and I said,hi, I need you to understand
this about me and that I haveabsolutely no problem with you.
And I struggle also with, I'mface blind.
(27:12):
So I can't remember whatsomebody looks like.
I pick up on how they sound andhow they move their body to tell
the differences between people,but I'm never going to recognize
face.
Wow.
Okay.
That's, that's huge.
You're one of the autisticpeople I've talked to that has
that and that severely.
(27:33):
So yeah, you compensate in alldifferent kinds of ways.
I feel that my this isinteresting because I've been
discussing compensation withJoanna actually a fair amount
and compensation strategiesbecause she likes to make me
think about things and I lovethat she does.
(27:53):
And, yes, my life is a series ofcompensation strategies to work
with the way my brain needs towork in a world that is not at
all designed for it to be donethat way.
But I'm also incrediblydetermined to do exactly what
I'm doing.
(28:15):
So I think between, lifelongspecial interests about movement
and, especiallychoreographically, especially as
fast and as dangerous aspossible.
I, I've needed to find a way tobuild a place for myself in a
world that has not.
(28:36):
been super welcoming.
And I compensate in so many waysfor so many things.
I live in a city that isincredibly overstimulating.
I am always strategizing how tomake something work so that I
can do the things I want to do.
And Not burn myself out and notand not fall apart in that world
(29:01):
in a lot of ways.
And I'm a shutdown autistic, nota meltdown autistic, so I tend
to just completely close in andYou know, I, I will go no
contact with the worlds for daysat a time as somewhat of a self
protective measure, I think, so.
There's a lot of informationthere.
That is an incredible amount ofwork to, I mean, for you to be
(29:26):
operating in a world that otherpeople walk through with such
ease.
And I think it's incredible.
I mean, you know, I live in thecountry in a very quiet place
where I can walk in the forestevery day because my nervous
system demands it of me.
I cannot even imagine being inthat kind of an over stimulating
(29:48):
environment and all that youmust have to face.
And I find it interesting theyou said you're not a meltdown.
What did you call it?
Shut down.
Shut down.
You know, horses do that too.
People talk about fight orflight, but there's fight and
flight and freeze.
Yes.
And horses will sometimes justcompletely freeze and just
(30:12):
disassociate and just holdabsolutely still when they are
in that part of their brain.
Because I'm a meltdown personafter the meltdown and the
crying and the emoting.
And once I come back, it's like,it's like a wash, it's like a
purification process thathappened where it resets me.
(30:34):
And because the shutdown is, isso foreign to me, is it, is it
the same way?
Is it when you come out of itthat you're reset?
I wouldn't say I'm, I'm reset.
I think for me and this may beunique to how I've kind of built
my life for me, I processemotion through movement.
So I will shut down and I willhave a very hard time dealing
(30:57):
with things and I will closemyself off and then I will find,
I create that space of quietnessto go move my body and feel what
I need to feel.
And after that, that is thatrelease.
But it's kind of a two stageprocess and there are a lot of
times that I wish I could get itover with faster.
(31:19):
Right.
But that's not how things workfor me.
So I tend to I tend to take along time to recognize how I
feel.
And an even longer one to beable to verbally process that
which is much slower for me.
I, I don't really think verballyat all.
I think visually and I think ina very pattern recognizing way.
(31:44):
But I, I have to bring myself toa point of words.
And I think with emotion for me,movement has always been the
very natural expression of that.
And I always.
You know, I feel physicallythings very strongly.
(32:04):
But when I am overstimulated orthe world is overwhelming, I get
very still and I get very quiet.
And then I need to move throughthat eventually.
This is so important.
I know, I know several people Ican think of that do a shutdown
and people around them don'talways understand the shutdown.
(32:27):
So whether they're autistic oron the spectrum or not or
undiagnosed, perhaps that whatyou're describing I just, I
realize now, like, the depths ofwhat those people may be going
through because it really isn'tvisible to the outside world.
(32:47):
Yeah.
And you know, the piece aboutmovement, horses do that too.
Like, you know, horses will runit out and, and move it out
through their bodies and dothese different things to
release.
When you said, You wish therewas a faster way sometimes, but
that's what the process is.
(33:08):
I would bet that there is aslightly faster way with an
equine assist.
There likely is, yes.
Unfortunately, my proximity toplaces where horses are
comfortable is not nearby.
Right, right.
But I have found that that whenI have been with the horses I
(33:28):
definitely, there, there is agrounding and a calming to that
for me that is very significantin my nervous system.
And to be able to move with themin dancing is.
There's an honesty to that thatI really value in a lot of ways.
I think when I've considered,you know, what it is to perform
(33:51):
and be a performer I have alwaysbeen looking for ways in which
to own who I am and, and behonest in that, in, you know, In
a very manufactured space, youknow, we curate a performance in
so many ways.
Can I, can I ask you anotherquestion?
(34:11):
I don't mean to interrupt, butit's fresh in my mind because it
was a little while ago.
There's so much great stuffhere.
I just, I I want to interactwith some of it.
The part about beingintimidating to people.
I mean, I've had that, I've hadthat said too, and I think the
directness is part of it.
And, you know, even just the.
The posture of a dancer is partof that, you know, or a
(34:32):
performer.
I think there's a con so this isthe concept that I that I
struggle with like when I foundout I was doing what they call
masking But really I feltauthentically grounded so much
of the time, you know, and whenI think about masking it has
this quality of Imitating otherpeople without a lot of
(34:54):
confidence and yet And yetpeople have told me quite a few
different people have told mehow intimidating I can be and I
don't mean to be I'm just beingmyself.
And so I'm curious a little bitabout how your brain processes
that like confident but masking,I'm intimidating people but I
don't mean to like, is thereanother way that you make sense
(35:18):
from that to me, I think, youknow, a lot of ways.
I think my, my masking in mylife has manifested as trying to
make others comfortable in a waythat I am very much not or being
compliant and pliable to my owndetriment to fit in.
(35:40):
And I have been absurdlyterrible at fitting in.
In so many ways in my life.
And I think to me, I, I feel adegree of being fortunate that I
am somewhat socially oblivious.
(36:02):
In that, you know, I tend towalk through life exactly as I
am.
And I'm, and I'm very open inthat way.
But also I think the ways Icommunicate are very direct to
me, but not necessarily standardenough that it's easy to gain
(36:26):
understanding with anotherperson.
And I think in some ways I kindof.
have always felt that I havethis periphery world.
I, I tend to observe people veryclosely and try to understand
them without necessarily beingas directly engaged or choosing
(36:47):
my direct engagement verycarefully.
I feel that there arecircumstances in which I
absolutely have to mask and feelimmense pressure for that.
And within, within my skatingworld, that is incredibly
common.
And, and I have recognized thatI have done that in many ways to
(37:07):
push my career to a place whereI could stand in a position of
enough belonging in that spaceto be authentic and start to
shape it around what I needwhich has been an interesting
process.
(37:28):
I'm just, I'm so impressedtalking to you.
I have like jillion questions.
I, I don't know that I can keepup.
So this conversation seems to beflowing really well, other than
me interrupting youoccasionally, which is like not
always knowing what is my timeto talk or being so excited
about, you know, what you'regoing to say next.
You're being authentic rightnow.
(37:49):
Is this work?
No, this is not work for me.
I do find it easier to talk toother neurodivergent people.
Generally, I find that thoseinteractions tend to not require
the participation in benignconversation topics that I find
(38:09):
boring.
I'm, I'm really, really guiltyof I, I've Had pointed out to me
and I realized how often I dothis.
And so it's something I've hadto be very conscious of.
I will absolutely walk out of aconversation with another
person.
(38:31):
If it's small talk and I don'tsee a purpose in it.
Which has gotten me in sometrouble because I just, I don't
really recognize why I should bethere to stay here for this?
Oh my god, I totally have donethat so many times.
And I've been told this is rude.
(38:52):
And it was never intentionallyso, but I have a hard time
telling when those conversationsare over.
And I don't necessarilyunderstand the rules of
participation.
I have learned that when 90percent of the people I
encounter in a day ask, How areyou doing?
They genuinely don't want a realanswer to that.
(39:13):
No, they want, they want asingle word that immediately
turns back to, How are you?
And these are rules.
And so in a lot of ways, I thinkI've strategized the rules of
interactions in my brain as a,you know, process of steps to
follow as opposed to somethingthat feels easy or comfortable.
(39:34):
And I very much value the peoplewho will ask me something like
that and accept a real answer.
And, and want to have an actualdialogue.
I, but I am terrible at kind ofthose scripted conversations in
a lot of ways.
(39:55):
But I recognize there are somany times I rely on a degree of
scripting to allowconversational ease to allow
When I'm teaching, I veryfrequently am relying on things
I know and it helps that it's,you know, this is a special
interest for me, so I will talkendlessly about what I love to
(40:16):
do with great excitement and,and much animation, but I will
absolutely, be engaged in smalltalk with another person because
I'm at a work event and I haveto do it and not necessarily
realize that I have just walkedaway when someone thinks that
we're in the middle of theconversation and been you know,
(40:37):
socially not so great.
Have you ever had the thoughtsat those times that especially
before knowing you were autisticand how old were you when you
found out?
I was in my late twenties.
Yeah.
So have you ever, have you everhad the thought of like, what is
wrong with all these people?
(40:58):
Why are they talking about thisstuff?
I just never understood thepoint.
I've never necessarily thoughtthat there was something wrong
with all the people.
My life experiences very muchtaught me that I was the outlier
very early on.
And so I never really got whatit was.
(41:18):
I didn't understand.
About why these interactionswere the way they were.
And so, in a lot of ways, Isocially have struggled my
entire life.
And I think, I make very fewgenuine connections to other
(41:39):
people, but the ones I have tendto be very strong and I'm
fiercely loyal to the peoplethat I care about.
And, and truly I'm very gratefulfor the ones that take in stride
how I operate because I'm notthe world's most consistent
communicator I'm one of thosepeople where I can interact very
(42:00):
intensely for periods of timeand then not speak to them for
six months and not really evenrealize it and then come back
and and still care just as muchabout that person the entire
time.
But I don't necessarily misspeople.
When I'm not aware of them in myimmediate sphere.
(42:26):
So, When my world is focused onsomething else, that's really, I
have.
The ability to focus on onething at a time in some way.
And you do have a very busy lifetoo.
I have an incredibly busy lifeby design in a lot of ways.
I think I have built a worldentirely based on the things
(42:47):
that I, I care so intenselyabout.
And I think, you know, I was soclear about what I wanted to do
with my life very early on.
And and very methodical aboutachieving that in so many ways.
And in some ways, I think thatwas also needing to feel a sense
(43:08):
of purpose.
Because I never felt a sense ofbelonging.
So purpose was a very effectivetool.
Yes.
I, have you ever thought aboutwriting a book?
You're saying so many thingsthat so many people would
benefit from.
And your turn of phrases is justcompliant at my own detriment.
(43:31):
Like that, I mean, the wayyou're expressing things, I'm
just like, Oh my gosh.
So funny about that.
Many people have told me Ishould write a book and for a
long time, I really resistedthis and not necessarily because
I have any issues with writing abook.
(43:53):
I love to write and I writefairly obsessively.
I've been journaling since I wasseven years old.
I have a very full accounting ofmy life available to me in
various formats.
But I had always pushed thisback as saying I'll consider it
when I'm 40.
And there was a notinsignificant part of me that
(44:15):
did not expect to live to 40 andnow I'm 40.
And so I have realized that insome ways I created a threshold
where now I do have to considerdoing that.
It is something I would.
entertain doing, but it is veryhard to know how to sum up a
(44:37):
life in that sort of way.
And I think I, I will be anenormous problem for an editor
at some point.
But I, I have written for quitea long time.
And I very much journal Isuppose for lack of a better, I
(45:00):
keep what I call my books and II carry them around everywhere
with me.
They're a combination betweenwriting, which is very factual
to me, not very emotional aboutwhat's going on in my life.
And after I've had a chance toemotionally process, I will
(45:21):
document.
what that has been in some ways.
And I draw and I collage and Iglue things in these, I break
the spines of these books andabsolutely destroy them in the
process of making them, but Ihave shelves and shelves and
shelves of them from my life.
And I don't know why I startedbut it has become a very
(45:41):
important part of my structureof my days.
You know, as you're talkingabout that, what I would love to
see is just a collection ofpages of your diary and pages of
your art that's in there.
I mean, if you have that many,like, how, how special it would
(46:03):
be, like, that would feel to melike a really intimate way to
let someone in just without anyediting, just a page here, you
know, there.
I have considered some of thiswith very few of the pages over
the years.
I have photographed some of theones that I, I mean, now they're
(46:24):
20 some years old.
At one point I did photographthose pages.
And put them online in a nowabsolutely defunct blog, but it
is something I have consideredand there are people in my life
that, you know, I, I have agreat degree of transparency
with the people I choose to beclose to and if they grab those
(46:45):
books and thumb through them, itdoes not bother me in the
slightest.
But.
You know, I, I went to artschool for a couple of years.
In high school, I actuallygraduated with a major in visual
art.
And I have very much bristleduntil fairly recently at
(47:06):
considering myself an artist.
And I'm not sure.
If I was waiting for some sortof certification from some
outside source to be like, well,now you're good enough to be an
artist or.
If I just never wanted thepressure of that to be on
(47:30):
something that to me is such anintimate process.
You know, I don't, I don't makethese books to produce
something, I make these books asa practice of knowing where I've
been.
And having, a record of a lifeI've lived in a lot of ways.
(47:51):
Maybe part of how you processthe world too.
I think it's part of how Iprocess the world and I think
it's how I solidify the lessonsof what I've learned in that
process too I experienced thething, I very frequently, have
to then later feel the thingand, and think through the thing
(48:11):
because I'm a little slow atthat.
I will write about the thing andI will make art about the thing.
And, and so, to me it's like thepractice of studying in a way
how things work.
And I love learning how thingswork.
And I've been trying to figureout how life works and how
(48:31):
people work for 40 years.
And I'm not very good at it, butI keep trying.
And To me, at least I think Ifelt like writing a book, an
actual book about it, is thatI've gained enough wisdom in
some way to, to share it, toteach it.
Absolutely.
(48:53):
And, and I'm very hesitant toclaim.
The ownership of any vastknowledge about how things work
when I'm still trying tounderstand when is the correct
time or not correct time to walkout of small talk, because I
don't like it and makes meuncomfortable, or, you know, how
to.
(49:13):
Like I struggle a lot with eyecontact and I find it immensely
uncomfortable.
And, and I've recognized thatother people feel a sense of
connection from this.
And and I think that issomething that's very
challenging for me to in someways want to care about other
(49:35):
people enough to give themsomething that for them feels
like a sense of connection.
And for me, it makes me feellike everything inside of my
body wants to immediately bold.
What would the world look like?
Do you think if The populationof people on the autism spectrum
(49:55):
was like 85 percent of thepopulation, and there was this
minority of normal people thatwanted to stand around and talk
about the weather or the septicsystem that they installed on
this property, whatever it isthat they're going on and on
about.
And, you know, like, The thingis, is like, if they were
talking about the septic system,they installed in their
(50:16):
property, I'd be like,immediately ready to dive into
all of the technical details ofunderstanding how all this
works.
And I would be completely finewith that.
But, but they're like, yeah, Ihad a guy come in and put it
there, like the, you know,right.
Right.
And, and I'm like, well, but.
Like where and what was thedecision?
(50:37):
I feel like the world would beone where we investigate things
much more deeply.
In a lot of ways, I think I havea very active inquisitive mind
and I found that a lot of myinteractions with other autistic
people has been.
(50:57):
One of not necessarily trying tomake the other person feel
comfortable with the idea wehave about ourselves.
But in trading information andenriching one another in a way.
That is very different.
And I love when people sharewith me the things that they are
(51:22):
excited about.
I love when somebody will go onan intense monologue about their
special interest and not shut upand I can listen.
It makes me thrilled.
I think that is the way we seepeople come alive in so many
ways.
It tells you so much about howtheir minds work.
Yes, how their minds work.
(51:42):
Can you see how other people'sminds work when you get to know
them and you're like, I knowexactly what you're doing or
thinking because I've studiedhow your mind operates.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and I'm very intenselyobservant of this.
In people and I tend to verymuch evaluate who I'm willing to
(52:03):
be close to based on how theywork after much evaluation.
And I'm also very often, I'mevaluating a lot of the time
because I'm not sure what typeof interaction I'll have or, or
whether or not it's a situationin which I know how to engage.
(52:25):
But like, I struggle a lot withgroups of people, but I'm pretty
okay with individuals.
Most of the time, I'm not supersocial, but like, if I'm allowed
to just like work on my ownthing in a room with another
person that I feel relativelysecure with, I'm going to be
completely content and feel agreat degree of bonding from
that activity.
Right.
(52:45):
I love to be ignored.
And And even better if they areworking on their own very
focused thing over there and Iam doing my own focused thing
over here, and we do not need tosay any words at all.
But at the end, there can besharing or not, and, and I'm
quite content with that sort ofinteraction, but I'm, I'm very
(53:07):
observant and I tend, I'velearned I tend to evaluate
people quite a bit.
On the things that once I startto sense how they operate in the
world and how their mind worksI'll get very focused on trying
to sauce all of that out.
And then I tend to, you know, beable to ask questions I actually
(53:30):
care about.
Right, right.
One of the things my therapisthas said is that, you know,
autistic people have a lot of,there's, you know, there's like
this long list of traits andsome of us have some of them.
Nobody has all of them andthey're just this different
(53:51):
mixed bag.
And as I get to know and get tointerview more autistic people,
I find such delight in findingpeople.
That have traits like me or thatdo things like me, and that
don't, you know, like, likethere's just so much permission
to walk like all those timesI've walked away from those
conversations and just been,it's been so awkward, you know,
(54:14):
and, and usually there's someoneelse there who can continue it
and I can just, you know,disappear but the level of
discomfort.
And having to do this thing thatpeople do all the time that they
don't seem to find discomfortand they seem to find some
degree of connection and joy inis just, it's baffling.
(54:34):
And I, you know, I made this, I,I, I did a, an intro about
changing the podcast a littlebit in direction.
One of the things I said, Itook, I put it up and then I
took it down.
But one of the things I said init was autistic people are all a
little bit different, whichmight be a good thing.
Otherwise, We might just takeover the world.
Like, if we were all closer tobeing the same, those normal
(54:57):
people would be in so muchtrouble.
Because we would, we would shiftthings to stop being so
uncomfortable and difficult.
And the thing that really stillbaffles me is that there's all
of these things in our culturethat point to so many of the
ways and characteristics that wehave that seem to be what people
(55:19):
are chasing and want to want toown and incorporate into their
lives and be like and yet whenwe're like that there's all this
pushback I just can't seem towrap it around my head.
I think I think there may be adegree in some When you just do
(55:41):
the thing as if it's natural toyou usually because it is that
people wish in their minds theycould do and are so engaged in a
set of rules and expectationsthat they believe are the
correct thing to do.
(56:03):
I think that it scares them.
To be so bold.
And, and like, you know, I amcertain that there are plenty of
neurotypical people who reallywould not like to have a
conversation about, you know,well, how was the weather this
(56:24):
weekend and, you know, whateverelse because it's dull, and
they're going to have thatconversation 15 times within the
same group of people untilthey've had it with every single
one.
Who would love to just walk awayor be like, you know, instead of
talking about that, like, whydon't we say something real?
(56:44):
And I think in some ways a lotof the, the counterpoint of
being neurodivergent is that wejust don't do those things that
people wouldn't do as anexpectation.
(57:05):
And, and it, it creates anaffront in some ways where
people take it personally whenyou don't follow the rules that
they expect to follow and thatthey have been following
sometimes to their owndiscomfort.
And I had somebody ask me oncewhat it's like to live life
(57:27):
caring so little about whatother people think of you.
And I realized that the reasonthey were asking this question
is because I'm operating in myown world.
Set of worlds, you know and it'snot that I don't care what other
people think it's that That I amnot necessarily always super
(57:57):
aware that I should care thatmuch or that that the
Expectation put upon me if itdoesn't make sense I will listen
patiently to your rules and thenI will go do something entirely
else And that I'm, I'm veryguilty of that in my life, but
(58:18):
it has never been a, I don'treally care.
It has been a, it doesn't makelogical sense and so I'm not
doing it.
I refuse to participate.
The, it's not a structure thathas a purpose to me, and I think
in a lot of ways, the quoteunquote normal people, none of
(58:39):
them are normal.
They're just some of them arebetter able to hide their weird
than others.
Some of us Have brains that justdon't operate in the same way.
And I think a lot of times it'sthe neurodivergent people that
say the things that make peopleuncomfortable and create the
(59:02):
things that alleviate discomfortin life.
how many inventors have likelybeen autistic?
Right.
You know, we're, we're lookingat the world in a different way.
And we're saying, you know, howdoes this work to such a degree
that we want to solve somethingyou know, it's just parsing
(59:22):
information differently.
And.
making a choice of how you willor will not engage with that
information.
But I think for a lot of normalpeople, it makes them vastly
uncomfortable to see somebody soblatantly just interact with the
world in a way that they're notwilling or able to for whatever
(59:42):
reason, because they understandsomething about convention.
Whereas we understand something,or at least I tend to not
understand something aboutconvention and understand
something more about if there'snot a point, why am I doing it?
Right.
No, you're describing, you know,a blind spot that I am still
(01:00:03):
trying to wrap my head aroundthis, this And you've described
it really well.
And, you know, somebody could onfrom the outside, it could look
like some narcissism or someself centeredness and just not
caring.
But no, it comes from a place ofcaring very deeply.
And then for myself, of, ofbeing hurt so much bumping into
(01:00:24):
the world is what I call it,when I bump into the world, and
it pushes back, that reach apoint where it hurts.
to care.
So then you just operate from,from yourself with these sort of
blinders on in, in what for mefeels like my authenticity.
And oops, I didn't mean to notconsider you.
(01:00:45):
I just didn't see it, or itdidn't make sense, or I was
really busy being authentic.
And it's not, it doesn't comefrom a narcissistic place or a
self centered place.
It comes from, I'm just tryingto be me, which is what all the
signs out there are pointing andsaying that I should or ought to
do.
Yes.
I think in some ways at least inmy feelings of this, it is not
(01:01:11):
as self centeredness.
I have a very contained sense ofself and I'm very clear about
it.
But I do care immensely aboutother people.
But the thing is, is that I.
I don't want to.
I don't want to be forced tocare on a surface level.
(01:01:31):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, well said, I truly, I wantto genuinely care I want to
really understand.
And.
I, I, you know, this is thatcongruency to me.
It would be so much easier if wecould just be honest about how
(01:01:53):
we're actually feeling whensomebody asks us, how are you
doing?
As opposed to having to say fineand move on to the next thing,
because that's what's expected.
And when that congruency isn'tthere, I am, So willing to
invest in really getting itreally learning about somebody
(01:02:16):
about anything.
I love to learn.
My brain is so inquisitive thatbeing put into.
a paradigm where I have toparticipate in a set of rules
that prevents me from operatingthe way I operate best.
I'm not going to participate inthat because it's a incredibly
(01:02:39):
boring and B I'm being asked toshut off one of the best parts
of me, which is that I want tounderstand that I want to care
and I want to do that all on anincredibly visceral level.
This is This has been an amazingconversation.
(01:03:00):
Oh my gosh.
I have so much gratitude foryou.
You have like really stimulatedmy brain in these wonderful
ways.
I'm glad I've enjoyed it aswell.
Yeah, really, really good stuff.
I think this is probably a good,a good place to, to end.
Hi, this is Ishii Abel with theHorse Human Connection Matrix.
Today I have with me afascinating guest, Sarah French.
Sarah is a figure skating coach.
An ice dancer, and she danceswith the Ice Theater of New York
Dance Company and with the EquusProject.
(00:22):
So she dances with horses, shedances on ice, she dances
through life, and just a reallywarm welcome for you joining me
today, Sarah.
Thank you for having me.
Tell me.
A little bit about the horses.
Tell me about what your reactionwas when you were invited to do
(00:43):
this project with the horses.
I kind of came about it in.
A strange way.
So the artistic director of theEquus Projects, Joanna
Mendelshaw actually worked withme first on the ice with Ice
Theatre of New York.
There was a piece she hadchoreographed on the company in
the late 90s that we'd Pulledout of our repertory that I was
(01:05):
really excited to be a part of.
And so I worked with her inskating first and after we
finished our performance forthat piece last spring I asked
how I could keep learning fromher and she invited me to dance
With her in the studio and theneventually to be a part of the
latest performance that thecompany did in November called
(01:28):
the fable.
So starting in July we wouldtake what we call a single day
run out to the barn and startworking with horses both, you
know, on lead line and atLiberty learning how to dance
alongside an equine partner.
Wow, that just sounds absolutelyamazing.
(01:48):
Dancing with an equine partner.
What, what does that look like?
Are you connected to themenergetically?
Are the moves mirroring eachother in any way?
A lot of what I would say as adancer skill that we're using
when we work with the horses issponging kind of using their
movements to shape what we'redoing choreographically as well
(02:11):
as definitely energeticallyconnected.
But I find for myself that veryfrequently I have an easier time
connecting with animals thanwith humans, so I tend to feel
energetically connected to anycreature that I'm close to.
Okay, and I didn't mentionbefore, but you're also on the
(02:34):
autistic spectrum, correct?
Yes, I am.
And so, What you just said aboutreally connecting easily with
the animals, do you feel likethat's part of being on the
spectrum?
Is there do you noticecomparisons between you and
other dancers and how youconnect with the horses?
I'm not sure if it's necessarilylike I've always felt that way.
(02:57):
So to me, it's a natural part oflife to connect very strongly to
animals.
And my autism diagnosis camelater.
So You know, I've never reallynecessarily married the two in
my mind but I do think that I Ipick up on feelings and
(03:17):
connection with animals in a waythat's a little unique.
Yeah.
And so when you say feelings,are you, do you feel like you're
empathically connected withthem?
Like, like you get hits fromthem about their emotional
states?
I think that I do in some waystrack that information.
(03:40):
I tend to also pick up on onfeelings of people around me,
which can be very confusing ifwhat they're saying and what I'm
sensing are not congruent.
Yes, that's a word that I use alot and the horses have taught
me a lot about and it is reallyconfusing when people are saying
one thing but doing another orbehaving as if they're not upset
(04:03):
when you really can feel thatthey are.
Yes.
What are your strategies fordealing with that with people?
Generally speaking, I, I'm aperson who takes information as
it's presented to me.
So I, I have recognized withpeople that very frequently they
(04:27):
need to pretend something isfine when it's not in order for
themselves to be okay.
So I try to let the other personset the tone of that
interaction.
But I stay aware of what I'mfeeling and I honor that with my
own kind of way of handlingthings.
(04:48):
But in all reality, I'm a prettyI don't want to say isolated
person, but I'm very investedin, in protecting my emotional
space with other people.
And so very often thoseinteractions, I keep somewhat
limited because I find themstressful.
Yeah, I can understand that.
(05:08):
And, you know, as you're talkingabout it and I'm watching your
face, I, I can really relate.
And it seems like it's a giftthat you're offering as a form
of acceptance to interact withthem when they're being so
incongruent, but it comes at acost.
Is that correct?
(05:28):
That's correct.
Yes.
And part of that cost is thatyou feel like you need to
withdraw or contract or reallylimit your interactions.
Yes, it's hard to know how tooperate when things are not
consistent.
Do you have people in your lifethat you feel are congruent?
(05:50):
I do.
Yes, I have people that are, arevery willing to be transparent
with me and I'm very gratefulfor that.
Along these lines, one of thethings that's confused me for a
really, really long time is, Iwent into some therapy in my
early 20s and have been with atherapist now and then at
difficult parts of my life, andit seems like, at least with the
(06:13):
therapists I have picked, teachis that we ought to be in touch
with our feelings, that we oughtto be congruent, that people
want us to be transparent andopen, and that that's the way to
being healthy and having healthyrelationships.
And yet, Of course, this wasmostly before I realized I was
(06:35):
on the spectrum as well.
And yet finding people thatactually do those things has
been so difficult.
I would agree with this.
Yes.
Yeah.
And it's even too like this.
I've been thinking about this abit.
But like maybe I'vemisinterpreted the female heroes
(06:58):
that I see in movies and TVshows that really strong female
character that says what sheneeds to say May be very abrupt
and direct and in charge And itworks for her But I don't know.
Maybe she's really the villain.
(07:18):
Maybe she's not the heroine andi'm just twisting it up in my
mind.
Do you, do you relate to astrong female character and,
and, and how, and what do youthink about that?
I do in a lot of ways.
I am not unfamiliar in being inleadership positions within my
work, especially and I tend tobe a very direct communicator.
(07:40):
I'm not I'm not one to sugarcoatthings too much as as the phrase
is.
I think though, too, with thatin day to day life outside of a
movie, people can find that verydisrupting to their sense of how
(08:01):
they expect a woman to treatthem.
You know, I, I think there is anexpectation that there is less
directness, there is less being.
Confident with being in chargeof something.
And and I find it interesting inmy interactions with people, you
(08:22):
know, I'm a fairly short,physically small person that
participates in the arts, likeI, I'm often expect to be more.
Expected to be more pliable thanI can be.
I don't tend to make a decisionuntil I've really thought
something through.
(08:43):
And when I'm set on that, I'mvery sad.
So, in your work, beingspontaneous and like knowing
right away and just pickingsomething and going with it
isn't, isn't your normal MO?
It is and it isn't.
I find that dance requires adegree of comfort with
(09:07):
improvisation.
And in my mind, I very muchframe the structure of my time
in that I know that's coming.
And I love to improvise.
I really find that that to me issort of my emotional language in
a lot of ways is the movementthat comes from, you know, just
(09:33):
moving through space in whateverform of dancing I'm doing.
Is how I experience feeling.
And so to me, I'll frameworkthat time by I know I'm setting
aside the time that this isgoing to be what it's going to
be.
And, and I'm not going to preplan that.
But I tend to be fairlystructured as a matter of
(09:54):
necessity in the rest of my lifein order to function.
And I think that's, that's kindof that play with being a
creative person and beingautistic.
I, I require a degree ofstructure to feel secure in my
world, but once I have thatsecurity there is so much that
I, I think I can offer as acreative person.
(10:21):
Yeah.
So one of the topics that I'vethrown around a little bit is
freedom through discipline.
And it sounds like that reallyfits with what you're saying
about your life, like theorganization and other autistic
people that I've talked to.
have spoken to me about needingthe structure.
And I mean, structure is alsodiscipline and how, how
(10:45):
important it is and howupsetting it is when that gets
switched around a lot.
And I know that's my experiencetoo.
Like if I have, you know, fouror five things scheduled in a
week and three of them getmoved, I'm just like, Oh no,
what am I doing?
Yes.
I, I shared this struggle aswell.
Like when something is, is set.
(11:07):
I, I require a degree ofconsistency to that in order to
not feel very untethered.
Have people given you a lot ofgrace?
I mean, do people that you workwith mostly know you're
autistic?
Maybe this is a better question.
Comparing and contrasting work,before knowing you were autistic
and after knowing you'reautistic, is there a big
(11:28):
difference?
I think for me Learning that Iwas autistic really didn't come
with some great change to how Ioperated in the world.
I've kind of always been aperson to design life Once I had
the autonomy to do so to whatI've needed it to be.
(11:49):
And I've been involved in myindustry for my, most of my
life.
I started you know, I startedskating when I was 11 and I
started teaching it at 14.
So I've had a professionalcareer that started my first
year in high school.
And I moved into professionalperforming as a skater in a more
(12:12):
serious way with ice theaterafter I was diagnosed.
So, I've come into my world herein New York with that full
knowledge of being autistic andneeding to focus.
I don't think I've ever beenable to process that, you know,
piece of myself into a frameworkthat doesn't necessarily have a
great degree of hospitality fordifferent.
(12:33):
But I have been remarkablylucky.
In the people that I interactwith and work with and for here
being very open to accommodatingwhat I need to be successful.
And I've been lucky in a fewother work situations as well as
a coach working with people thathave allowed me to prioritize.
(12:55):
What I need to be successful inthat environment and really kind
of push me forward in those waysso that I could do my best work.
And I'm very open about, youknow, that I'm autistic.
This is who I am.
You know, I'm also gay and I amvery clear about that with
(13:17):
people and in, you know,Especially within the skating
world.
Those are not things we talkabout.
I've noticed and so I havereally made a significant effort
in my career to be forthcomingand to be very transparent about
who I am.
(13:37):
Because I want the nextgenerations past mine to have a
framework of somebody who'scompletely comfortable with that
about themselves.
And, and I've been so fortunate.
remarkably thrilled to have somany students over the years
that have felt secured theiridentities and in their
(13:59):
neurotypes to be open about thatthemselves because they have
somebody to support them inthat.
So you are really consciouslysetting an example.
Yes.
I'm listening to your wordchoice and, and kind of the
attitude to about your life andyour work.
And everything is framed verypositively.
(14:21):
Like, like the words you'rechoosing to describe things are
so beautiful.
I was recently listening to aYouTube, the, Diary of a CEO.
I just love this guy.
And they were talking aboutpeople's stories, and how either
you could have a victim story,or a hero story, Or you know,
life is kind of against me, butI keep fighting it kind of
(14:43):
story.
And it strikes me and, andsaying that you're lucky had a
lot to do with what manifestedin your life.
And so I really was picking upon that as you were talking
about it.
And it looks like it's reallyworked for you.
You have a very full, veryaccomplished of life.
(15:04):
I do.
I also think though, to I, Iframe my overall situation as
I'm a person who has survived alot and, and I've been through
some fairly unimaginabledarkness in my life.
And I have made a very deepchoice to not be a person that
is going to perpetuate that andthat wants a better world than
(15:28):
the one I've known.
And to me, the small ways I canaffect change are through my
creative pursuits and throughthe way that I choose to
interact with others.
And I recognize that, especiallyespecially with my work on the
ice where I, you know, forbetter or worse, have a degree
(15:52):
of notoriety and being a publicfigure in that I have the
ability to affect a change thatI could have used deeply and
desperately when I was a youngperson.
So there is a burden to that,that I take very seriously and
that I care immensely about.
(16:13):
You are not the first personI've interviewed who has that
experience.
And I think it's, It's sopowerful and so focused.
I really appreciate that.
So can you tell me, I, I went tothe website where Joanne Joanne
and the Equus Project are andsome of her other projects, and
(16:35):
I will be interviewing her laterthis week.
I'm super excited about thattoo.
Yes.
Can you, I, I can't get a realvisual on, What happens with the
horses and where what's theaudience and and how big is the
audience?
And can you can you tell me alittle bit more about all of
that and your experience withit?
(16:56):
Yes, I can.
So I generally speaking, theEquus projects doesn't own any
horses.
So we're always working incollaboration with horse owners
and their herds.
And the, the place I have mostlyinteracted with this has been at
(17:19):
a therapeutic riding barn in NewJersey where we you know, really
intensively honer practice ofdancing with horses and We
performed there in November.
The audience was a mix of peoplewho I'm going to refer to as
horse people and dance people.
(17:40):
Okay.
That makes sense.
Yes.
And, and there is crossoverwithin those worlds.
I think you know, for manypeople, I think dance has been a
part of their lives.
And I think also, My impressionhas been that within the worlds
(18:01):
of, you know, horses and workingwith working with equines
there's more womenproportionately who are also
more likely to have experience,even if it was, you know, just
minimally in childhood withdance.
And so I think there's, there'salways sort of a little bit of,
(18:22):
you know, somebody has someInteractions with dancing
sometime in their life.
I think it's a very humanactivity that we do.
And I think it's, it's quitewonderful in that.
But you definitely can tellthere are some people that are
there to see how theinteractions go with the horses.
And there are some people thatare there to see dancing.
(18:46):
And I find that veryinteresting.
And, it's, it's been such aremarkable experience for me.
Danced very seriously when I wasa kid and then, as I
transitioned onto the ice, Idanced as, you know, more of a
cross training to complimentthat aspect that I was pushing
(19:08):
ahead in competitively.
And then after.
retiring from competitiveskating at the ripe old age of
19, which sounds absurd, but isconsidered old in our sport.
I transitioned into a brief, butimportant to me, professional
dance career.
And then I really did none ofthese things until from the time
I was about 22 until I was in myearly thirties.
(19:33):
I, I only taught skating duringthat time.
I didn't.
Didn't perform, didn't reallyskate for myself.
Didn't take dance classes.
I also was going through somereally substantial health issues
during that time.
And you know, for better orworse, my one marketable skill I
have is that I'm very good atcoaching.
(19:54):
So as a means to survive, I'vealways taught, but I do love it,
Do you find that your directnessreally helps you with that?
I am very good at being directwith my students, and yes I
think, I think teaching comesnaturally to me in a lot of ways
because I do genuinely careabout what I do and I do
(20:17):
genuinely care about my studentsvery, very much.
It has been my, ethos as a coachthat it is my job to facilitate
their version of success.
It has nothing to do with myneed for personal growth.
Ego of having successfulstudents in whatever permutation
(20:37):
I'm teaching.
It has everything to do withwhat they consider successful in
their journey.
And I have had some skaterswhere that is, you know, I want
to be an internationallycompetitive athlete and I want
to go to an Olympic games and Ihave worked with skaters in that
capacity.
And I have worked with skatersthat say, I really just need an
(20:58):
hour of the day, you know, oncea week.
To set aside for my, you know,mental health of this is
somewhere I want to be insomewhere.
I feel supported and I just needthat touch in and I expect to
never be good at it.
I've had skaters where theironly goal is just to learn how
to glide, which is shockinglydifficult.
(21:18):
It's hard.
We lose sight of that when wesee you know, the highest levels
of what can be done in thatdiscipline.
The difficulty and the hardestthing about it is making it look
so very easy and so fluid and soeffortless and I have been, I
think because I'm autistic, ableto really hone in on the details
(21:42):
of how to make that happen forpeople.
That's what I was going to askyou, you know, I taught some
very beginning level dance attimes and kids gymnastics and
things like that.
And yeah, yeah, And beginningwriting as well.
And I seem to have.
a focus on the importance oflike how a muscle is held or how
(22:05):
the isolation is that I don'thear other teachers talking
about.
And so I've kind of wondered,like thought that that was
probably part of the autism andcould see where it would, if you
have that and you're using that,how it would definitely set you
apart, you know, at a differentlevel.
Yes.
I think I think in a lot ofways.
(22:27):
One of the things that Istruggle with a lot as an
autistic person is sensoryissues.
And one of the things that Ithink is an incredible asset to
me as a dancer and as a coach ismy sensory issues.
I am so attuned to small changesand my hearing is incredibly
sensitive.
(22:48):
So when I'm working on the iceI'm tracking, spatially, people
by sound a lot on the rink andthe sound of their blades on the
ice, and I know the sound ofeach of my individual students
I'm working with which does meanthat I know when they mess up a
turn and I'm not facing them,and they're on the other side of
the rink, and they think Ididn't see it, and they're fine,
(23:10):
and I'm like, They're notbecause I'm like, I heard that
again.
But, but I'm very aware of howpeople utilize their bodies in
space.
And and in some ways, I thinkit's an incredible asset when I
have the removal of being ableto analyze that.
(23:33):
And in some ways when I'm tryingto learn movement, it makes it
incredibly hard.
I pick up choreography, I thinkslightly slowly compared to
other people because I'm payingattention.
To so many details and I have toseparate out which things matter
and which things don't I don'tpick up the broad gesture of it
(23:53):
first and refine it.
I see all of the small stuff.
And I have to put that togetherin my mind.
You can't turn it off.
I totally get that.
I it can be so distracting.
Yeah.
I, I understand that one too.
So you have, I love hearingabout the superpowers.
I just, I just love hearingabout them, but they are, they
are two sides of a coin forsure.
(24:16):
There's compensations that needto happen.
I'm curious about this.
I've really struggled with someunderstanding some of my blind
spots, especially socially, andyou feel like you understand
your blind spots, all of them.
I am not sure if I do or notbecause I think the nature of
something we're blind to is thatwe may not recognize it.
(24:38):
But I am very aware of both mydifficulties with interacting
with people and, and I thinksometimes that is because I've
had experiences where I'm justabsolutely slapped in the face
by the reality of something.
What do you mean by that?
(24:58):
I mean where I will, I will notrecognize that.
I am in a situation with anotherperson where they are wildly
uncomfortable with me forwhatever reason or I have said
the wrong thing or I have notinteracted in the expected way
(25:18):
and it will be someone elsepointing out to me you know,
this person is upset about thisbecause and I actually had A
really interesting experiencewith this when I was directing a
program, a skating program at arink where there were some
people in that work environmentthat knew me for several years
(25:39):
and knew that I'm, you know, I'ma very open minded.
I'm a very, nonjudgmental kindof person.
But I also tend to beinadvertently intimidating to
people, especially in thecontext of skating.
And, I don't know if that isthat my default facial
(26:04):
expression is fairly nonexpressive or that I simply come
into what I'm doing at thispoint in my career with a lot of
credentials behind me that canscare people off a little bit
from believing that I'm asapproachable as I feel I am.
But there was a skater at therink that Was absolutely
(26:27):
convinced.
I hated her.
Because I wasn't outwardlyfriendly.
And the reality is that I wassimply blind to recognizing how
she needed to be interactedwith.
And some, you know, anotherperson that skated at the rink
pointed out to me that there wasan issue with this, for this
(26:49):
person.
Person and that I shouldprobably, you know, address
that.
And so I chose to do so in myusual way of extremely directly.
I sent her an email and I said,hi, I need you to understand
this about me and that I haveabsolutely no problem with you.
And I struggle also with, I'mface blind.
(27:12):
So I can't remember whatsomebody looks like.
I pick up on how they sound andhow they move their body to tell
the differences between people,but I'm never going to recognize
face.
Wow.
Okay.
That's, that's huge.
You're one of the autisticpeople I've talked to that has
that and that severely.
(27:33):
So yeah, you compensate in alldifferent kinds of ways.
I feel that my this isinteresting because I've been
discussing compensation withJoanna actually a fair amount
and compensation strategiesbecause she likes to make me
think about things and I lovethat she does.
(27:53):
And, yes, my life is a series ofcompensation strategies to work
with the way my brain needs towork in a world that is not at
all designed for it to be donethat way.
But I'm also incrediblydetermined to do exactly what
I'm doing.
(28:15):
So I think between, lifelongspecial interests about movement
and, especiallychoreographically, especially as
fast and as dangerous aspossible.
I, I've needed to find a way tobuild a place for myself in a
world that has not.
(28:36):
been super welcoming.
And I compensate in so many waysfor so many things.
I live in a city that isincredibly overstimulating.
I am always strategizing how tomake something work so that I
can do the things I want to do.
And Not burn myself out and notand not fall apart in that world
(29:01):
in a lot of ways.
And I'm a shutdown autistic, nota meltdown autistic, so I tend
to just completely close in andYou know, I, I will go no
contact with the worlds for daysat a time as somewhat of a self
protective measure, I think, so.
There's a lot of informationthere.
That is an incredible amount ofwork to, I mean, for you to be
(29:26):
operating in a world that otherpeople walk through with such
ease.
And I think it's incredible.
I mean, you know, I live in thecountry in a very quiet place
where I can walk in the forestevery day because my nervous
system demands it of me.
I cannot even imagine being inthat kind of an over stimulating
(29:48):
environment and all that youmust have to face.
And I find it interesting theyou said you're not a meltdown.
What did you call it?
Shut down.
Shut down.
You know, horses do that too.
People talk about fight orflight, but there's fight and
flight and freeze.
Yes.
And horses will sometimes justcompletely freeze and just
(30:12):
disassociate and just holdabsolutely still when they are
in that part of their brain.
Because I'm a meltdown personafter the meltdown and the
crying and the emoting.
And once I come back, it's like,it's like a wash, it's like a
purification process thathappened where it resets me.
(30:34):
And because the shutdown is, isso foreign to me, is it, is it
the same way?
Is it when you come out of itthat you're reset?
I wouldn't say I'm, I'm reset.
I think for me and this may beunique to how I've kind of built
my life for me, I processemotion through movement.
So I will shut down and I willhave a very hard time dealing
(30:57):
with things and I will closemyself off and then I will find,
I create that space of quietnessto go move my body and feel what
I need to feel.
And after that, that is thatrelease.
But it's kind of a two stageprocess and there are a lot of
times that I wish I could get itover with faster.
(31:19):
Right.
But that's not how things workfor me.
So I tend to I tend to take along time to recognize how I
feel.
And an even longer one to beable to verbally process that
which is much slower for me.
I, I don't really think verballyat all.
I think visually and I think ina very pattern recognizing way.
(31:44):
But I, I have to bring myself toa point of words.
And I think with emotion for me,movement has always been the
very natural expression of that.
And I always.
You know, I feel physicallythings very strongly.
(32:04):
But when I am overstimulated orthe world is overwhelming, I get
very still and I get very quiet.
And then I need to move throughthat eventually.
This is so important.
I know, I know several people Ican think of that do a shutdown
and people around them don'talways understand the shutdown.
(32:27):
So whether they're autistic oron the spectrum or not or
undiagnosed, perhaps that whatyou're describing I just, I
realize now, like, the depths ofwhat those people may be going
through because it really isn'tvisible to the outside world.
(32:47):
Yeah.
And you know, the piece aboutmovement, horses do that too.
Like, you know, horses will runit out and, and move it out
through their bodies and dothese different things to
release.
When you said, You wish therewas a faster way sometimes, but
that's what the process is.
(33:08):
I would bet that there is aslightly faster way with an
equine assist.
There likely is, yes.
Unfortunately, my proximity toplaces where horses are
comfortable is not nearby.
Right, right.
But I have found that that whenI have been with the horses I
(33:28):
definitely, there, there is agrounding and a calming to that
for me that is very significantin my nervous system.
And to be able to move with themin dancing is.
There's an honesty to that thatI really value in a lot of ways.
I think when I've considered,you know, what it is to perform
(33:51):
and be a performer I have alwaysbeen looking for ways in which
to own who I am and, and behonest in that, in, you know, In
a very manufactured space, youknow, we curate a performance in
so many ways.
Can I, can I ask you anotherquestion?
(34:11):
I don't mean to interrupt, butit's fresh in my mind because it
was a little while ago.
There's so much great stuffhere.
I just, I I want to interactwith some of it.
The part about beingintimidating to people.
I mean, I've had that, I've hadthat said too, and I think the
directness is part of it.
And, you know, even just the.
The posture of a dancer is partof that, you know, or a
(34:32):
performer.
I think there's a con so this isthe concept that I that I
struggle with like when I foundout I was doing what they call
masking But really I feltauthentically grounded so much
of the time, you know, and whenI think about masking it has
this quality of Imitating otherpeople without a lot of
(34:54):
confidence and yet And yetpeople have told me quite a few
different people have told mehow intimidating I can be and I
don't mean to be I'm just beingmyself.
And so I'm curious a little bitabout how your brain processes
that like confident but masking,I'm intimidating people but I
don't mean to like, is thereanother way that you make sense
(35:18):
from that to me, I think, youknow, a lot of ways.
I think my, my masking in mylife has manifested as trying to
make others comfortable in a waythat I am very much not or being
compliant and pliable to my owndetriment to fit in.
(35:40):
And I have been absurdlyterrible at fitting in.
In so many ways in my life.
And I think to me, I, I feel adegree of being fortunate that I
am somewhat socially oblivious.
(36:02):
In that, you know, I tend towalk through life exactly as I
am.
And I'm, and I'm very open inthat way.
But also I think the ways Icommunicate are very direct to
me, but not necessarily standardenough that it's easy to gain
(36:26):
understanding with anotherperson.
And I think in some ways I kindof.
have always felt that I havethis periphery world.
I, I tend to observe people veryclosely and try to understand
them without necessarily beingas directly engaged or choosing
(36:47):
my direct engagement verycarefully.
I feel that there arecircumstances in which I
absolutely have to mask and feelimmense pressure for that.
And within, within my skatingworld, that is incredibly
common.
And, and I have recognized thatI have done that in many ways to
(37:07):
push my career to a place whereI could stand in a position of
enough belonging in that spaceto be authentic and start to
shape it around what I needwhich has been an interesting
process.
(37:28):
I'm just, I'm so impressedtalking to you.
I have like jillion questions.
I, I don't know that I can keepup.
So this conversation seems to beflowing really well, other than
me interrupting youoccasionally, which is like not
always knowing what is my timeto talk or being so excited
about, you know, what you'regoing to say next.
You're being authentic rightnow.
(37:49):
Is this work?
No, this is not work for me.
I do find it easier to talk toother neurodivergent people.
Generally, I find that thoseinteractions tend to not require
the participation in benignconversation topics that I find
(38:09):
boring.
I'm, I'm really, really guiltyof I, I've Had pointed out to me
and I realized how often I dothis.
And so it's something I've hadto be very conscious of.
I will absolutely walk out of aconversation with another
person.
(38:31):
If it's small talk and I don'tsee a purpose in it.
Which has gotten me in sometrouble because I just, I don't
really recognize why I should bethere to stay here for this?
Oh my god, I totally have donethat so many times.
And I've been told this is rude.
(38:52):
And it was never intentionallyso, but I have a hard time
telling when those conversationsare over.
And I don't necessarilyunderstand the rules of
participation.
I have learned that when 90percent of the people I
encounter in a day ask, How areyou doing?
They genuinely don't want a realanswer to that.
(39:13):
No, they want, they want asingle word that immediately
turns back to, How are you?
And these are rules.
And so in a lot of ways, I thinkI've strategized the rules of
interactions in my brain as a,you know, process of steps to
follow as opposed to somethingthat feels easy or comfortable.
(39:34):
And I very much value the peoplewho will ask me something like
that and accept a real answer.
And, and want to have an actualdialogue.
I, but I am terrible at kind ofthose scripted conversations in
a lot of ways.
(39:55):
But I recognize there are somany times I rely on a degree of
scripting to allowconversational ease to allow
When I'm teaching, I veryfrequently am relying on things
I know and it helps that it's,you know, this is a special
interest for me, so I will talkendlessly about what I love to
(40:16):
do with great excitement and,and much animation, but I will
absolutely, be engaged in smalltalk with another person because
I'm at a work event and I haveto do it and not necessarily
realize that I have just walkedaway when someone thinks that
we're in the middle of theconversation and been you know,
(40:37):
socially not so great.
Have you ever had the thoughtsat those times that especially
before knowing you were autisticand how old were you when you
found out?
I was in my late twenties.
Yeah.
So have you ever, have you everhad the thought of like, what is
wrong with all these people?
(40:58):
Why are they talking about thisstuff?
I just never understood thepoint.
I've never necessarily thoughtthat there was something wrong
with all the people.
My life experiences very muchtaught me that I was the outlier
very early on.
And so I never really got whatit was.
(41:18):
I didn't understand.
About why these interactionswere the way they were.
And so, in a lot of ways, Isocially have struggled my
entire life.
And I think, I make very fewgenuine connections to other
(41:39):
people, but the ones I have tendto be very strong and I'm
fiercely loyal to the peoplethat I care about.
And, and truly I'm very gratefulfor the ones that take in stride
how I operate because I'm notthe world's most consistent
communicator I'm one of thosepeople where I can interact very
(42:00):
intensely for periods of timeand then not speak to them for
six months and not really evenrealize it and then come back
and and still care just as muchabout that person the entire
time.
But I don't necessarily misspeople.
When I'm not aware of them in myimmediate sphere.
(42:26):
So, When my world is focused onsomething else, that's really, I
have.
The ability to focus on onething at a time in some way.
And you do have a very busy lifetoo.
I have an incredibly busy lifeby design in a lot of ways.
I think I have built a worldentirely based on the things
(42:47):
that I, I care so intenselyabout.
And I think, you know, I was soclear about what I wanted to do
with my life very early on.
And and very methodical aboutachieving that in so many ways.
And in some ways, I think thatwas also needing to feel a sense
(43:08):
of purpose.
Because I never felt a sense ofbelonging.
So purpose was a very effectivetool.
Yes.
I, have you ever thought aboutwriting a book?
You're saying so many thingsthat so many people would
benefit from.
And your turn of phrases is justcompliant at my own detriment.
(43:31):
Like that, I mean, the wayyou're expressing things, I'm
just like, Oh my gosh.
So funny about that.
Many people have told me Ishould write a book and for a
long time, I really resistedthis and not necessarily because
I have any issues with writing abook.
(43:53):
I love to write and I writefairly obsessively.
I've been journaling since I wasseven years old.
I have a very full accounting ofmy life available to me in
various formats.
But I had always pushed thisback as saying I'll consider it
when I'm 40.
And there was a notinsignificant part of me that
(44:15):
did not expect to live to 40 andnow I'm 40.
And so I have realized that insome ways I created a threshold
where now I do have to considerdoing that.
It is something I would.
entertain doing, but it is veryhard to know how to sum up a
(44:37):
life in that sort of way.
And I think I, I will be anenormous problem for an editor
at some point.
But I, I have written for quitea long time.
And I very much journal Isuppose for lack of a better, I
(45:00):
keep what I call my books and II carry them around everywhere
with me.
They're a combination betweenwriting, which is very factual
to me, not very emotional aboutwhat's going on in my life.
And after I've had a chance toemotionally process, I will
(45:21):
document.
what that has been in some ways.
And I draw and I collage and Iglue things in these, I break
the spines of these books andabsolutely destroy them in the
process of making them, but Ihave shelves and shelves and
shelves of them from my life.
And I don't know why I startedbut it has become a very
(45:41):
important part of my structureof my days.
You know, as you're talkingabout that, what I would love to
see is just a collection ofpages of your diary and pages of
your art that's in there.
I mean, if you have that many,like, how, how special it would
(46:03):
be, like, that would feel to melike a really intimate way to
let someone in just without anyediting, just a page here, you
know, there.
I have considered some of thiswith very few of the pages over
the years.
I have photographed some of theones that I, I mean, now they're
(46:24):
20 some years old.
At one point I did photographthose pages.
And put them online in a nowabsolutely defunct blog, but it
is something I have consideredand there are people in my life
that, you know, I, I have agreat degree of transparency
with the people I choose to beclose to and if they grab those
(46:45):
books and thumb through them, itdoes not bother me in the
slightest.
But.
You know, I, I went to artschool for a couple of years.
In high school, I actuallygraduated with a major in visual
art.
And I have very much bristleduntil fairly recently at
(47:06):
considering myself an artist.
And I'm not sure.
If I was waiting for some sortof certification from some
outside source to be like, well,now you're good enough to be an
artist or.
If I just never wanted thepressure of that to be on
(47:30):
something that to me is such anintimate process.
You know, I don't, I don't makethese books to produce
something, I make these books asa practice of knowing where I've
been.
And having, a record of a lifeI've lived in a lot of ways.
(47:51):
Maybe part of how you processthe world too.
I think it's part of how Iprocess the world and I think
it's how I solidify the lessonsof what I've learned in that
process too I experienced thething, I very frequently, have
to then later feel the thingand, and think through the thing
(48:11):
because I'm a little slow atthat.
I will write about the thing andI will make art about the thing.
And, and so, to me it's like thepractice of studying in a way
how things work.
And I love learning how thingswork.
And I've been trying to figureout how life works and how
(48:31):
people work for 40 years.
And I'm not very good at it, butI keep trying.
And To me, at least I think Ifelt like writing a book, an
actual book about it, is thatI've gained enough wisdom in
some way to, to share it, toteach it.
Absolutely.
(48:53):
And, and I'm very hesitant toclaim.
The ownership of any vastknowledge about how things work
when I'm still trying tounderstand when is the correct
time or not correct time to walkout of small talk, because I
don't like it and makes meuncomfortable, or, you know, how
to.
(49:13):
Like I struggle a lot with eyecontact and I find it immensely
uncomfortable.
And, and I've recognized thatother people feel a sense of
connection from this.
And and I think that issomething that's very
challenging for me to in someways want to care about other
(49:35):
people enough to give themsomething that for them feels
like a sense of connection.
And for me, it makes me feellike everything inside of my
body wants to immediately bold.
What would the world look like?
Do you think if The populationof people on the autism spectrum
(49:55):
was like 85 percent of thepopulation, and there was this
minority of normal people thatwanted to stand around and talk
about the weather or the septicsystem that they installed on
this property, whatever it isthat they're going on and on
about.
And, you know, like, The thingis, is like, if they were
talking about the septic system,they installed in their
(50:16):
property, I'd be like,immediately ready to dive into
all of the technical details ofunderstanding how all this
works.
And I would be completely finewith that.
But, but they're like, yeah, Ihad a guy come in and put it
there, like the, you know,right.
Right.
And, and I'm like, well, but.
Like where and what was thedecision?
(50:37):
I feel like the world would beone where we investigate things
much more deeply.
In a lot of ways, I think I havea very active inquisitive mind
and I found that a lot of myinteractions with other autistic
people has been.
(50:57):
One of not necessarily trying tomake the other person feel
comfortable with the idea wehave about ourselves.
But in trading information andenriching one another in a way.
That is very different.
And I love when people sharewith me the things that they are
(51:22):
excited about.
I love when somebody will go onan intense monologue about their
special interest and not shut upand I can listen.
It makes me thrilled.
I think that is the way we seepeople come alive in so many
ways.
It tells you so much about howtheir minds work.
Yes, how their minds work.
(51:42):
Can you see how other people'sminds work when you get to know
them and you're like, I knowexactly what you're doing or
thinking because I've studiedhow your mind operates.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and I'm very intenselyobservant of this.
In people and I tend to verymuch evaluate who I'm willing to
(52:03):
be close to based on how theywork after much evaluation.
And I'm also very often, I'mevaluating a lot of the time
because I'm not sure what typeof interaction I'll have or, or
whether or not it's a situationin which I know how to engage.
(52:25):
But like, I struggle a lot withgroups of people, but I'm pretty
okay with individuals.
Most of the time, I'm not supersocial, but like, if I'm allowed
to just like work on my ownthing in a room with another
person that I feel relativelysecure with, I'm going to be
completely content and feel agreat degree of bonding from
that activity.
Right.
(52:45):
I love to be ignored.
And And even better if they areworking on their own very
focused thing over there and Iam doing my own focused thing
over here, and we do not need tosay any words at all.
But at the end, there can besharing or not, and, and I'm
quite content with that sort ofinteraction, but I'm, I'm very
(53:07):
observant and I tend, I'velearned I tend to evaluate
people quite a bit.
On the things that once I startto sense how they operate in the
world and how their mind worksI'll get very focused on trying
to sauce all of that out.
And then I tend to, you know, beable to ask questions I actually
(53:30):
care about.
Right, right.
One of the things my therapisthas said is that, you know,
autistic people have a lot of,there's, you know, there's like
this long list of traits andsome of us have some of them.
Nobody has all of them andthey're just this different
(53:51):
mixed bag.
And as I get to know and get tointerview more autistic people,
I find such delight in findingpeople.
That have traits like me or thatdo things like me, and that
don't, you know, like, likethere's just so much permission
to walk like all those timesI've walked away from those
conversations and just been,it's been so awkward, you know,
(54:14):
and, and usually there's someoneelse there who can continue it
and I can just, you know,disappear but the level of
discomfort.
And having to do this thing thatpeople do all the time that they
don't seem to find discomfortand they seem to find some
degree of connection and joy inis just, it's baffling.
(54:34):
And I, you know, I made this, I,I, I did a, an intro about
changing the podcast a littlebit in direction.
One of the things I said, Itook, I put it up and then I
took it down.
But one of the things I said init was autistic people are all a
little bit different, whichmight be a good thing.
Otherwise, We might just takeover the world.
Like, if we were all closer tobeing the same, those normal
(54:57):
people would be in so muchtrouble.
Because we would, we would shiftthings to stop being so
uncomfortable and difficult.
And the thing that really stillbaffles me is that there's all
of these things in our culturethat point to so many of the
ways and characteristics that wehave that seem to be what people
(55:19):
are chasing and want to want toown and incorporate into their
lives and be like and yet whenwe're like that there's all this
pushback I just can't seem towrap it around my head.
I think I think there may be adegree in some When you just do
(55:41):
the thing as if it's natural toyou usually because it is that
people wish in their minds theycould do and are so engaged in a
set of rules and expectationsthat they believe are the
correct thing to do.
(56:03):
I think that it scares them.
To be so bold.
And, and like, you know, I amcertain that there are plenty of
neurotypical people who reallywould not like to have a
conversation about, you know,well, how was the weather this
(56:24):
weekend and, you know, whateverelse because it's dull, and
they're going to have thatconversation 15 times within the
same group of people untilthey've had it with every single
one.
Who would love to just walk awayor be like, you know, instead of
talking about that, like, whydon't we say something real?
(56:44):
And I think in some ways a lotof the, the counterpoint of
being neurodivergent is that wejust don't do those things that
people wouldn't do as anexpectation.
(57:05):
And, and it, it creates anaffront in some ways where
people take it personally whenyou don't follow the rules that
they expect to follow and thatthey have been following
sometimes to their owndiscomfort.
And I had somebody ask me oncewhat it's like to live life
(57:27):
caring so little about whatother people think of you.
And I realized that the reasonthey were asking this question
is because I'm operating in myown world.
Set of worlds, you know and it'snot that I don't care what other
people think it's that That I amnot necessarily always super
(57:57):
aware that I should care thatmuch or that that the
Expectation put upon me if itdoesn't make sense I will listen
patiently to your rules and thenI will go do something entirely
else And that I'm, I'm veryguilty of that in my life, but
(58:18):
it has never been a, I don'treally care.
It has been a, it doesn't makelogical sense and so I'm not
doing it.
I refuse to participate.
The, it's not a structure thathas a purpose to me, and I think
in a lot of ways, the quoteunquote normal people, none of
(58:39):
them are normal.
They're just some of them arebetter able to hide their weird
than others.
Some of us Have brains that justdon't operate in the same way.
And I think a lot of times it'sthe neurodivergent people that
say the things that make peopleuncomfortable and create the
(59:02):
things that alleviate discomfortin life.
how many inventors have likelybeen autistic?
Right.
You know, we're, we're lookingat the world in a different way.
And we're saying, you know, howdoes this work to such a degree
that we want to solve somethingyou know, it's just parsing
(59:22):
information differently.
And.
making a choice of how you willor will not engage with that
information.
But I think for a lot of normalpeople, it makes them vastly
uncomfortable to see somebody soblatantly just interact with the
world in a way that they're notwilling or able to for whatever
(59:42):
reason, because they understandsomething about convention.
Whereas we understand something,or at least I tend to not
understand something aboutconvention and understand
something more about if there'snot a point, why am I doing it?
Right.
No, you're describing, you know,a blind spot that I am still
(01:00:03):
trying to wrap my head aroundthis, this And you've described
it really well.
And, you know, somebody could onfrom the outside, it could look
like some narcissism or someself centeredness and just not
caring.
But no, it comes from a place ofcaring very deeply.
And then for myself, of, ofbeing hurt so much bumping into
(01:00:24):
the world is what I call it,when I bump into the world, and
it pushes back, that reach apoint where it hurts.
to care.
So then you just operate from,from yourself with these sort of
blinders on in, in what for mefeels like my authenticity.
And oops, I didn't mean to notconsider you.
(01:00:45):
I just didn't see it, or itdidn't make sense, or I was
really busy being authentic.
And it's not, it doesn't comefrom a narcissistic place or a
self centered place.
It comes from, I'm just tryingto be me, which is what all the
signs out there are pointing andsaying that I should or ought to
do.
Yes.
I think in some ways at least inmy feelings of this, it is not
(01:01:11):
as self centeredness.
I have a very contained sense ofself and I'm very clear about
it.
But I do care immensely aboutother people.
But the thing is, is that I.
I don't want to.
I don't want to be forced tocare on a surface level.
(01:01:31):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, well said, I truly, I wantto genuinely care I want to
really understand.
And.
I, I, you know, this is thatcongruency to me.
It would be so much easier if wecould just be honest about how
(01:01:53):
we're actually feeling whensomebody asks us, how are you
doing?
As opposed to having to say fineand move on to the next thing,
because that's what's expected.
And when that congruency isn'tthere, I am, So willing to
invest in really getting itreally learning about somebody
(01:02:16):
about anything.
I love to learn.
My brain is so inquisitive thatbeing put into.
a paradigm where I have toparticipate in a set of rules
that prevents me from operatingthe way I operate best.
I'm not going to participate inthat because it's a incredibly
(01:02:39):
boring and B I'm being asked toshut off one of the best parts
of me, which is that I want tounderstand that I want to care
and I want to do that all on anincredibly visceral level.
This is This has been an amazingconversation.
(01:03:00):
Oh my gosh.
I have so much gratitude foryou.
You have like really stimulatedmy brain in these wonderful
ways.
I'm glad I've enjoyed it aswell.
Yeah, really, really good stuff.
I think this is probably a good,a good place to, to end.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.