December 3, 2024 • 41 mins
I was so honored to interview, The Austic Woman. If you havent heard of her, she is a very popular (top 0.5%) podcaster with an educational serries on autism. She is also an attorney and a part time judge.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/meet-my-autistic-brain/id1548001224
info@theautisticwoman.com
What are the legal protections for ableism and autism? How do high functioning autisic people face their challenges ? And who do you know that is hiding in plain site under the lable, striving harder than you know?
For more information on names or materials referenced, or to contact Ishe- please email. iabel.hhc@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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The Voice is this podcast.
Welcome to today's episode.
Hi, I'm Ishi Abel, and today Ihave a very special guest with
me.
I have Susan, the autistic womanfrom the podcast, My Autistic
(01:13):
Brain.
And I'm just so excited to haveyou here and get to chat.
Susan, thank you for joining me.
Well, thank you for theinvitation.
It's great to be here.
Yeah, so I have gained so muchfrom your podcast.
It has helped put so many thingsin perspective for me.
You know, being diagnosed withautism at age 60, it's been an
(01:38):
opportunity to go back and lookat so many different things with
a different lens and understandthings differently.
And I think a lot of people havethat experience when they get
diagnosed as an adult.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
I was diagnosed at age 64.
So I totally relate to that.
Okay.
(01:59):
Yeah, it's yeah, it's reallysomething.
Looking back on some things youknow, there's, there's things
that have been helpful andadvantageous about some of the
traits of autism and things thatare not so much.
And I'm curious with your withyour line of work, and you said
(02:20):
that you are an attorney.
Yes, and a part time judge.
And a part time judge.
Right.
So, you know, one of the, fromwhat I'm understanding and, and
experience sometimes is thisblack and white thinking that
happens with people on thespectrum and autism.
I can see where that wouldactually be advantageous.
(02:43):
When you're sitting as a judgeis that is that so do you find
that it is advantageous.
It also can have its downsidebecause I tend to try to hold
people to the letter of the law,to the point where you know even
exactly word for word, but overthe years I've learned how to
ease up on that a bit.
(03:04):
And not, you know, be quite thatstrict.
I don't have to interpreteverything in black and white.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, I know, I know there's alot of times in my life where I
have thought that that was theway it was because that's what
it says, you know?
Yes and, that leads me into the,one of the, things that stuck in
(03:24):
my head as we're all taught aschildren about the Constitution
and that all men are createdequal.
And that's something that I tookat very literally, and have
interpreted that reallyliterally.
And it seems to lead into thatthat other autistic trait of not
(03:51):
really understanding socialhierarchy.
Sure.
And that there are those things.
And so those two, those twothings have acted very kind of
opposing me in a lot of ways.
And I'm, I'm wondering if you'vehad similar experiences with
that or other things that aretaken literally or ways of
(04:12):
looking at things, or maybethere are stories about social
hierarchy and boundaries thatyou didn't understand at some
point.
That's a lot of questions.
Sorry.
Okay.
It's okay.
As far as created equally, Inever thought of it as relating
back to that, but I can see howit certainly would because I
know I viewed people as thinkinglike me and not in a negative
(04:38):
way, not in a way that I canunderstand what people are
thinking, more of a, when Ididn't understand that other
people have differentexperiences that would cause
them to think differently.
I started out with this levelplaying field of thinking we're
all equal, as you say, said so.
(04:58):
And so that made it so that Iwas quite surprised when I would
learn that people thinkdifferently.
And I'm talking about opinions,not necessarily that they'd have
different feelings, in a certainsituation, but that they'd have
different opinions than I hadbecause again, as a lawyer, you
know, it's the constitution, youknow, we have to follow it.
(05:21):
Exactly.
We take it literally.
You know, everyone must agreethat we should take it
literally.
And so it was an awakening.
to find out that there are somany different interpretations
and that makes up so much of thelaw is interpreting statutes and
cases and the constitution fromdifferent points of view.
(05:45):
Yeah, the the differentperspectives can be a bit
unnerving.
And I know there've been lots oftimes where I just cannot
understand how people couldpossibly arrive at that.
At that conclusion, given thesame information, but yeah, yes,
exactly.
Yes.
It's so obvious, right?
Right, except it's really not.
(06:05):
Right.
I mean, everybody does have,whether you're autistic or ADHD
or whatever, people have verydifferent outlooks.
They have differentperspectives.
When it comes to ableism andprejudice against autistic
people, have you seen that withother people or experienced it
(06:26):
yourself?
In a sense I experienced thatfrom young because I was treated
like I was so called normal orneurotypical, and so experienced
that.
way.
So in a sense, that's a type ofableism when people are always
expecting you to be as othersare.
(06:46):
And then having been having goneto a private parochial school
for the first time.
for grades.
Anyway, that definitely is.
Let's all be alike.
And you shouldn't think outsidethe box.
And that's where, you know, Ieven see it in the law.
(07:07):
I think that thinking outsidethe box and being different and
not thinking like other peoplehas been an advantage, but it
also can be a detriment.
When again, people want me totoe the line and be like them.
It's one reason why I have ahard time working in a
corporation or an organizationbecause I can't, I can't do it.
(07:32):
I just can't.
you know, have that same mindsetthat you're supposed to have.
So in that way, you know, peopledidn't know I was autistic.
Still, most people don't know.
So they wouldn't understand whythey were expecting me to act
like everyone else and why thatwas impossible to do so.
So you said a lot of peopledon't know that you are
(07:55):
autistic.
Right.
Do you have strategies or haveyou developed rules for when you
tell people or who you tell orhow you interact around that?
How do you strategize?
Right.
Well, because, believe it ornot, there's so much bias in the
legal profession and also in thelegal profession, they're late
(08:19):
adapters.
So what I mean by that, when itcomes to technology, for
example, some attorneys arestill proud of the fact that
they don't have email.
So yeah, it takes a long timefor people to come around, and I
know that there would not beacceptance of me in the legal
profession.
So I have kept that, you know,to myself.
(08:40):
So there are other lawyers don'tknow, other judges don't know,
because there is this, you know,idea of what we think a judge
should be, and no one thinksthat person would be autistic.
There even are, there's at leastone other attorney I've talked
to who is autistic, not inArizona.
And even she has no clue abouthow you would approach that as a
(09:05):
judge with other judges.
So I have only told a couple ofclose friends and a few family
members.
I am that certain that I wouldhave pushback from other family
members that I'm, I'm not goingto tell them.
Wow.
Wow.
Different.
This really different than myexperience, which has been, you
(09:25):
know, I'm just by nature verytransparent.
And so it's only with like,after the fact thinking, okay, I
probably shouldn't have toldthose people or even.
So this is something that I feellike I'm experiencing a bit now,
even if I don't tell people.
I feel like they know there'ssomething different about me.
And it seems like it's morenoticeable as I get older.
(09:49):
Like there was more grace as ayounger person to be a little
bit different.
And of course I, I grew up inthe San Francisco Bay Area,
which is like a melting pot ofpeople that are just kind of,
you know, crazy in themselves.
do wacky things.
So maybe I was more camouflagedthere.
But as an older person now, Ifind like I stand out more.
(10:11):
And there's this turn up term,the uncanny valley.
Are you familiar with that?
Usually used to describe whenanime or cartoons get too close
to being human.
It disturbs us.
Interesting.
(10:31):
And, and so they, and it, it hasa creep factor, like people
don't want to watch it becauseof that.
And so I'm almost feeling like,and I looked it up today, in
fact, about how Uncanny Valleykind of applies to autism.
People, especially with higherfunctioning autistic people,
sometimes I think people sensethat something's different.
(10:54):
bit, but they don't know what itis.
And so it creates this, thisdifference.
And then along with that,there's, there's so many
autistic traits that could beviewed as like negative
personality, right?
Like, Things about boundariesthings about not understanding,
you you don't approach your bossin that way because there's a
(11:16):
social hierarchy and, you know,black and white thinking where
you're digging your heels in onsomething.
So when we have these, thisgroup of things that I'm talking
about the uncanny valley and thepersonality traits.
You know, is it fair to callthat ableism?
Like, I'm going through my headwith this.
And is it prejudice?
(11:37):
Is it ableism?
Where is the line?
And how do we get things toshift other than your podcast,
which is doing a good job ofeducating people?
Well, thank you.
Yes.
How do we get people to shift?
I agree with you about thepersonality thing.
I think people think mypersonality is be is that I'm
very quiet.
(11:57):
And that's not my personality.
You know, as you and I aretalking, I'm very comfortable
talking to you.
So I'm not, I wouldn't callmyself shy, but when I'm in a
social situation withneurotypical people, I do keep
very quiet.
Like many autistics, I don'talways know what to say.
I'm afraid I'll say the wrongthing.
(12:18):
Or I'm afraid I'll blurtsomething out that I shouldn't.
And also, you know, knowing whenit's my turn to speak is a
problem.
So yes, is it ableism when theother parties don't even
understand what it is they'reexpecting of us?
That's I think the whole idea ofableism is still being explored.
(12:40):
Looking at it through a legallens, the American Disabilities
Act.
Covers people that arehandicapped, but is autism a
handicap and is havingpersonality traits and being
autistic, where it may be offputting to people, something
(13:02):
that can fall under.
a disability or a legalprotection?
As an autistic person, as far asa disability, from what I
understand under the federallaw, it does qualify.
But when we talk aboutemployment you know, sometimes
employment, the kinds ofaccommodations we need are not
(13:22):
the kind of accommodationsemployers are used to.
So, you know, that's where wesee some of the bias come in, I
think.
I would say that You know, I dothink we need to make
accommodations and need tounderstand though what it is an
autistic person needs.
And that most of all, I thinkthere's not an understanding
(13:44):
that these disabilities dointerfere with our daily life.
You know, you and I can have aconversation and we seem like
we're not challenged by life.
And then we know when we turnoff the camera, we know what the
challenges are.
each and every day and how muchit would help to have someone
there to do many of the thingswe can't do like socialize,
(14:08):
right?
Or no, you know, like, like, Ithink I was making I've made a
little joke a few times abouthaving a seeing eye dog or a
person with me who can interpretlike what just happened, you
know, but it can be such a aburden on good friends to
constantly be asking them, thissituation happened.
(14:29):
You know, this is how I'minterpreting it.
Does that seem right?
Yes, yes.
Our friends get tired of that.
Yes.
Right.
And you know, I have atherapist, but I only see her
once a week.
And she's autistic, too.
So it's a little like the blindleading the blind sometimes,
although she's very good at whatshe does.
Yeah, it's It's a thing.
(14:51):
It's a thing that people reallydon't appreciate and don't
understand how hard we work todo or to be in social situations
and tasks that other people doeffortlessly.
Right.
And you know, to your pointabout having someone help us, I
was at a function years ago, andthere was a politician there,
(15:12):
and as he was going from groupof person to group of person, he
had like an aide next to him,whispering in his ear, Oh, this
is the man that was introducedto you at so and so, and he's
donated so much to yourcampaign.
And he would say that real fast.
And then the politician couldshake his hand and say, Oh,
thank you.
It was so good to see you onsuch and such a date, you know,
(15:36):
and I have never forgotten thatbecause now that I know I'm
autistic, I want that kind ofperson there with me, you know,
make sure you say this, makesure you say that, that would be
so wonderful.
It would be.
And.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat would be very good at that
job.
Yes, absolutely.
(15:57):
Yeah, I would, I would like,let's each order one for
Christmas.
Okay, and we'll see whathappens.
I don't know where they're goingto come from, or where they're
going to get training, but Iwould like to see that happen.
And it doesn't seem like it'sthat unrealistic.
And you know what's interesting?
You said they need training.
(16:18):
The funny thing is, I imaginethat really outgoing people
don't need any training.
Don't need any training.
They're just going to know whatto do.
It's natural.
I'm envious of that.
How easily they can talk toother people.
They thrive on that in fact.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think a lot of times insocial situations, I have been
(16:39):
very quiet to a point, and thenI just say, the heck with it,
and I do blurt things out, and Iam myself, only to then get
quiet afterwards, watching howpeople are reacting and
thinking, oh, you know, I haveno idea what I just said, or, or
what I said that was wrong, andit's, It's really confusing.
(17:03):
It is.
Absolutely.
And it seems like no matter howmuch I observe in other people
who seem to, you know, are atease with social things, I still
can't pull it off.
You know, I'll be convinced Ican pull it off and then go to a
function and then I'll saysomething.
And I'll see, like you said,that look on people's faces or
(17:25):
when I get home, then it justgoes over and over in my mind,
over and over and over.
Why did you say that?
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, and for the longesttime I thought other people
experience some of that too, andmaybe they do to some degree,
but probably nowhere near asmuch.
(17:46):
Right.
Yes.
And so much of my life was justtrying to get this information
that everyone seemed to havenaturally.
So I could learn how toconverse.
So I could learn how to makefriends.
And I thought everyone else hadthese same challenges.
No, they don't.
But you have some superpowers.
(18:07):
What are some of yoursuperpowers?
I think being creative is one ofthe ones that I, I really am
appreciative of.
I can also see things from apoint of view that other people
don't.
And I know that because.
There have been times when I'vecome up with a solution to a
problem and everyone's like, Oh,we hadn't thought of that.
(18:29):
But to me, it seemed obvious.
In fact, I usually stay realquiet because I think this is so
obvious, you know, why aren'tthey saying it?
They must have ruled it out.
So Those are a couple thingsthat I'm an idea person and then
I'm creative.
Did you do well in school?
I did through high school.
(18:50):
And then when I got to college,it was terrible.
I didn't know how to study.
The environment, being in aclassroom with 500 people, that
was way too much.
And the, the, you know, socialsituation that is, does exist in
school.
I just, would go from class toclass without speaking to
(19:10):
anyone.
If I said hello, I thought I wasbeing outgoing just by saying
hello.
So yeah, it took me 10 years toget my bachelor's degree because
I would drop out because of thepressure and then I'd go back
and then I'd drop out and goback.
Wow.
It sounds really stressful.
It was.
Yes.
(19:30):
Yeah, I know.
I, I started, I started collegeat least five or six times.
And I'm sure I have enoughcredit somewhere for some sort
of degree, but I don't, but Idon't actually have one.
Yeah.
So, I mean, kudos to you forlike keeping at it.
And I had the encouragement ofmy mother at the time who said,
(19:51):
even if you take just one courseat a time, eventually you'll
have a degree.
So I had that, and then once Idecided I wanted to go to law
school, I had that final, youknow, inspiration to keep going
and get it done.
Yeah.
Things are so hard for autisticpeople that there is a really
(20:11):
high suicide rate.
Yes, absolutely.
Do you have statistics off thetop of your head on that or, or
just information or maybe peopleyou've known?
Yes, actually in the last fewyears I've lost two immediate
family members to suicide.
So it is something I'm, I'm,Very familiar with.
(20:32):
Unfortunately, I believe one ofthem was undiagnosed autistic
and the other one I doubt wasautistic.
There's not only a high rate ofsuicide.
I think there's a high rate ofaddiction as well.
I'm convinced that people whowho are autistic have a harder
time of breaking addictions.
(20:54):
And you know, we hear aboutpeople who smoke and then they
quit smoking and I've seenpeople who I know are autistic
who have tried to quit smokingtheir whole lifetime and they
can't do it.
So it does make me wonderanyway, and I doubt there's any
science regarding that, but itdoes make me wonder.
Well, someone said something.
(21:16):
And, and I'm sorry about yourlosses.
I I lost a son to suicide.
My son also, I lost a son.
And I'm, I talked to his bestfriend after I found out I was
autistic and said, do you thinkMy son was autistic.
And do you think he knew becausehe was such an outside the box
(21:37):
thinker and he was, he was a lawstudent also.
And his friend said, yeah, I, I,I think he was, I'm pretty sure
he was.
I don't know if he knew or not.
Huh.
I see.
Yeah.
So, hard, hard.
It is hard.
Yes, it's I believe my son wasautistic.
Again, I wasn't diagnosed so Ihad no way of even putting that
(22:01):
into context but he had specialinterests That he would get and
then learn everything he couldpossibly learn about them.
So he had a number of things inhis life that he had learned so
much about and become an expert.
And I remember one of hisfriends saying to me, You know,
he could do anything he wantedbecause he'd learn everything
(22:22):
there was about it.
So I knew it wasn't just me thatsaw him that way.
I also know he had socialchallenges.
Especially with relationshipswith, you know, having a
girlfriend that was really hardon him, hard for him to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That sounds very familiar.
(22:43):
Yeah.
So what else can we do toeducate people and to enact
changes.
Do you, do you think about that?
Do you have ideas?
You know, it's, it's easy to getdiscouraged because of the
(23:03):
biases that are out there.
And most of those biases are dueto a lack of education or
information.
I think that the approach I'mstarting to take is to, rather
than say I'm autistic to peoplethat I know are resistant, I
start to tell them a trait orsomething about me without
(23:24):
saying the word autism, with theidea that once I've laid the
groundwork enough, I will beable to say, see all those
things I've told you, that'swhat autism is.
That's why I have trouble with Xor Y is because of autism.
So it gives them a chance to buyinto the traits so that when I
finally do tell them, if I do.
(23:47):
They, they've had some way tobelieve it.
Otherwise, you know, you getanswers like everyone's a little
autistic, which is one thing Ido not like to hear because it's
not true.
So let's talk, let's talk aboutthe spectrum because they're,
they're confusing things aboutthat too.
And I too have done what youjust said and also had friends
(24:07):
say, Oh yeah, I'm pretty sureI'm neurodivergent also.
And, you know, they're notexactly the same thing,
neurodivergence and autism.
They are all on a spectrum, youknow, being a genius is part of
that spectrum too, from what Iunderstand.
And yeah, there are just, thereare a lot of challenges.
And then there's also this, Idon't, I don't want to make a
(24:31):
line because it's a spectrum oflike lower functioning and
higher functioning autism, butit's something that.
I'm not sure how to address.
I, I, I want to be fair.
I mean, everybody on thespectrum is so different, even
though there are all of thesecommon traits, you know, that
(24:52):
you may have some, but not allof right.
Right.
I think that I, when I heardfrom one more person about it
being on a spectrum, which thatperson sees it as a straight
line, you know, from, you know,Black to white kind of thing.
And sometimes I think of it morelike a scattergram or something.
I finally thought to myself, Ithink maybe what people are
(25:15):
mistaking is not the medicaldefinition that we know of,
which is social issues, youknow, hyper fixated interests
and sensitivities.
That's all it takes to bediagnosed autistic.
Now, these other things that weknow are common traits.
I think people are thinking theyhave a few of those traits, so
(25:37):
it makes them on the spectrum.
And it doesn't necessarily, asyou and I know, we have some
traits that are neurotypical,but that doesn't make us on the
spectrum of neurotypicals.
So I think that we're hearingthese misstatements by people
who really aren't on thespectrum, who think if I have a
(26:00):
few traits, That's what makes mea little bit autistic, and I
don't think that's true.
Yeah, it takes a professional tohave the diagnosis, and as has
been said, autistic traits arenot, they're not separate from
being human, they're justexaggerated.
(26:23):
Yes, they're still human traits.
Yeah.
So there's something that was onthe tip of my tongue before and
I lost it.
Let me, give me a sec here.
Of course.
Oh, the dendrites.
So someone said, and thedendrites don't die back.
(26:44):
In an autistic brain.
Ah, interesting.
Have you heard that?
I had not heard that before.
So there's this book, I'm goingto go back and just sort of fast
forward.
There's this book that my horsetrainer a few years ago came
across called Horse Brain, HumanBrain that got me really, and
she's a trauma therapist, andgot me really interested in the
(27:07):
neurochemicals, which are prettybuzzy right now.
A lot of people talk aboutneurochemicals and different So
all different aspects fromactivities from primitive
cultures to what happened to usin COVID.
And I started paying moreattention to the very base level
neuroscience.
And so when someone said in anautistic brain, the dendrites
(27:30):
don't die back, like we havethese neuropathways, right?
Like you learn to spell a word.
And once you learn the rightway, all the wrong ways that you
were spelling that word kind ofgo away.
Sure.
It explains why I'm a badspeller, but in an autistic
person, those other pathwaysdon't all go away.
(27:52):
So anytime we're talking about asubject, a lot of autistic
people can recall all kinds offacts.
about that, or things that aresimilar, that they've
categorized that way.
So our brains make these webs.
And I think that, to me explainsa few things.
(28:16):
I have this huge question.
It's really a question for aneuroscientist, not not an
attorney.
But like if we're treated forPTSD, or Or you're making
progress in some kind of apersonal growth way.
The things, the traumas or thethings that happen are not going
(28:38):
to die back the way they do in anormal brain.
I see what you're saying.
Sure.
And that makes a lot of sense.
It's yeah, I'm sure that traumais differently processed by the
autistic brain.
It just has to be right.
And this goes back to what youwere saying about addiction.
Like you have some theories.
(28:58):
about that.
And I wonder if those things areinterrelated.
That would make sense.
How do you rewrite the brainwhen it has an addiction problem
to not have that, you know, howdoes, how do people do that?
I don't think that's possible.
Yeah.
Well, I think it, I think it'sharder and maybe different
(29:19):
strategies need to be used, butExactly.
And when they don't need to beguilt and shame that doesn't
seem to work for an autisticperson.
Maybe it does work for peoplewho aren't, but I think there's
too much of the system was builtaround guilt and shame.
And that's, you know, whenyou're talking about people who
(29:39):
already are carrying around likeyou said trauma and guilt and
shame from all of that, makingthem feel ashamed of the fact
that they have an addictionproblem.
I haven't seen that besuccessful with autistic people.
No, and I think that the shameis the main thing behind most
addiction and, you know, acrossthe board that that's like how
(30:02):
our culture handles handles thatit registers in the brain in a
different part of the brain thanemotions do it registers in the
part of the brain with physicalpain.
Ah, interesting.
Yeah, so, hmm.
Yeah, so the prejudice, I, I, Iimagine someday that there'll be
(30:30):
enough education about howdifferent people's brains work.
That there'll be legislationalso that protects people from
Being mistreated because thePTSD and the trauma we're
talking about for myself andprobably for you just living in
(30:50):
a world that's made for peoplethat are different than us racks
up enough of that trauma.
That I don't know how to say it.
Yeah, it's definitely traumathat we have had to deal with
since we were quite young, andit continues.
And I think that, and I don'tknow if this is true of you, but
(31:12):
I think a lot of autistic peopleare highly sensitive sensitive
to hurt.
Sensitive to happiness to wejust take delight in things that
are that make us happy, youknow, but the things that people
say that can really hurt usdeeply, that just piles on over
(31:32):
the years.
And so that makes it very hardto deal with PTSD.
And I don't know that there aremany people who know how to
relate to an autistic personwith PTSD.
And is it even different?
I don't know.
Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not sure.
I've been doing this EMDR withmy autistic therapist and it's
(31:54):
working, you know, it's takenthe edge off of all kinds of
stuff.
So I think that there is hope.
I just, I just wish peopleunderstood to just arrive and
function, how much more work itis.
Yes, yes.
And the societal norms is thatif you don't work an eight hour
(32:17):
day, you're lazy or you're, youknow, you're unproductive where
many of us can work an eighthour day and do all that amount
of work in four hours, but thenwe need to be able to just chill
after that or go home and take anap or something.
And that's not valued.
The, the work you do is lessvalued than the amount of hours
(32:38):
you put in in some cases.
And that's hard for an autisticperson, to, to have long hours
that go on and on.
Yeah, and not fair.
Just not fair.
Right.
Exactly.
It should be about what we areable to produce, what we can do.
And I think that's why, like, Iinterviewed A man named Sean
(32:59):
about his autism and he wastalking about having to learn to
not give a hundred and fiftypercent, you know, to give
seventy percent because hisseventy percent was easily a
hundred percent of somebodyelse.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think people knowhow hard it is for us to even
get up in the morning and getgoing, you know, and yeah, we
(33:23):
can be organized, but thatdoesn't mean we'll go through
that whole list and doeverything that's on it.
Right, right.
It's interesting to me how we'reall so different too.
What, what inspired you to dothe podcast?
Well, when I learned I wasautistic, I did want to tell the
world.
(33:43):
That was my first thought.
I want to tell everyone sothey'll know there's nothing
wrong with me, which is sort offunny.
But I wanted my family tounderstand what life had been
like for me so they could knowwhat autism was from in my case.
And I didn't know as much aboutit as you probably have
experienced.
(34:04):
We're learning more every day.
Ourselves.
Yes.
And so I did the podcast just asa way to let people know what
it'd been like.
And as it turned out, my familywasn't that interested in
listening to it, which is finebecause other people were.
So that's how it came aboutthough, as a way to communicate
with them.
Yeah.
(34:24):
And you have, you're in the topone half percent.
Yes.
That's, that's amazing.
Like, are there numbers that goalong with that?
Do you have any idea what theirnumbers are?
Well, this is from listen notes.
And that's who ranks people.
And they come up with alistening score.
(34:45):
And I think that's based on thenumber of listeners, how
frequently you put out anepisode and, you know, whether
people continue to listen.
So I don't know, because they'renot going to tell their
proprietary formula.
I don't know.
But I think those are some ofthe things that go into it.
I think also if a person haslasted a while, you know, cause
(35:06):
there are a lot of people whostart a podcast and then it just
lasts a few episodes.
So if you can stay in thereyears and years, I think that
adds to the ranking as well.
And how long have you been doingthe podcast?
This is my fourth year, soJanuary 1st will be starting my
fifth year.
Wow, that's amazing.
(35:28):
Yeah, I send your podcast to allkinds of people, always
forwarding them.
I probably forwarded more ofyours than mine, which is okay,
because I want people to reallyunderstand, you know.
More people need to understandautism than horses, probably.
(35:48):
So, I try to bring, as I've beeninterviewing people, that has
very little or nothing at all todo with horses, I like to bring
it back somehow.
So, autistic people, People andanimals being sensitive and
animals.
Do you have special animals inyour life?
Have you felt like you hadstronger bonds with them because
of the autism?
(36:08):
Yes.
I never knew it was because ofautism.
I have cats now, but I'd haddogs my whole life.
And then once I was on my own,you know, not married any
longer, then it was just easierto take care of cats.
But I actually worked on workstudy in college and working at
the local zoo.
(36:28):
So That's where I developed alove of birds and I had had a
parrot, parakeet, a macaw at onetime.
Also, my father had what I calla gentleman's farm.
It was a gentleman farmer, so tospeak, which was six acres.
And he had, you know, sheep andhorses, no cattle.
(36:49):
And then I guess to add to thatin college, I took a class
called animal science.
Which was about cattle, horses,sheep, chickens, and those kinds
of things.
I, I've had chickens off and onthroughout my life.
So yeah, I'm definitely ananimal person.
How about ESP or, or specialabilities, clairvoyance,
(37:16):
clairaudience, anything likethat in with you or your family
that you, any connection you seebetween that and being on the
spectrum?
You know, I didn't call it ESP,but I know there's cases where I
can size up a personimmediately, and it is like a
sense I have for who they are.
(37:36):
And so, you know, we're oftentold that we don't have empathy.
But I think autistic people havesomething else we maybe can't
explain and maybe ESP is theright word for it.
And that is the way we can sizeup a person, sometimes a
situation, just almostinstantly.
And I have heard it from otherautistic people as well.
(37:58):
I do know one autistic personwho, yes, has, vivid dreams
about the future, for example,and that, and then many of those
things actually come to fruitionprophetic dreams.
Yeah.
Yes.
Now I felt like I could, and nowI believe it's due to autism,
see patterns and trends.
(38:18):
Now we know patterns are, butthe seeing those patterns helped
me predict trends in the.
past and therefore I could getahead of them and, and be more
successful in whatever it was Iwas doing.
for example, in the legalprofession, advertising used to
be illegal.
We couldn't advertise.
(38:40):
And then as soon as the SupremeCourt said we could, well,
again, attorneys are lateadapters.
They thought it would be wrongto advertise, it would take down
the respect of our profession,but I ran with it and started
the advertising and did it in asophisticated way.
It became more of a.
informing people rather thanambulance chasing as you've
(39:02):
heard that term probably.
So I think then finallyattorneys started to adopt that.
But I feel like we were ahead ofthe curve with, with advertising
and doing it in a way thatrespected the listeners.
Yeah, the pattern seeingpatterns can be can be a really
(39:25):
good thing.
Yes, I value that very much.
Yeah.
Is there anything else that youwould like to talk about?
You know, one of the things thatI have really been surprised by
but appreciate is the amount ofsupport there is from the
autistic community.
(39:47):
And I even see it in YouTube aswell as podcasts.
And I like to encourage thatamongst podcasters, that we
really should support eachother.
I don't see us as competing.
No, I don't either.
Yeah, we all have a similar goaland that is to increase
awareness to provide informationand education and it's to all of
(40:11):
our benefit to help each other.
So as I see that I'm reallypleased about it.
Yeah, I think that that's apowerful, it's a powerful
statement and a way that moreeducation can get out there for
sure.
Yes, definitely.
And I think that's the wholepoint.
(40:33):
Yes, it is.
It's the reason we startpodcasts.
I think, you know, you wantpeople to know and all of us
have the same goal, really.
Absolutely.
Well, I think this might be agood place to wind up.
Okay.
Thank you so much.
I have enjoyed getting to chatwith you and get to know you a
(40:55):
little bit.
It's been wonderful.
I'm glad we got to talk.
Yeah, me too.
This is the Horse HumanConnection.
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(00:25):
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(00:48):
shift.
The Voice is this podcast.
Welcome to today's episode.
Hi, I'm Ishi Abel, and today Ihave a very special guest with
me.
I have Susan, the autistic womanfrom the podcast, My Autistic
(01:13):
Brain.
And I'm just so excited to haveyou here and get to chat.
Susan, thank you for joining me.
Well, thank you for theinvitation.
It's great to be here.
Yeah, so I have gained so muchfrom your podcast.
It has helped put so many thingsin perspective for me.
You know, being diagnosed withautism at age 60, it's been an
(01:38):
opportunity to go back and lookat so many different things with
a different lens and understandthings differently.
And I think a lot of people havethat experience when they get
diagnosed as an adult.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
I was diagnosed at age 64.
So I totally relate to that.
Okay.
(01:59):
Yeah, it's yeah, it's reallysomething.
Looking back on some things youknow, there's, there's things
that have been helpful andadvantageous about some of the
traits of autism and things thatare not so much.
And I'm curious with your withyour line of work, and you said
(02:20):
that you are an attorney.
Yes, and a part time judge.
And a part time judge.
Right.
So, you know, one of the, fromwhat I'm understanding and, and
experience sometimes is thisblack and white thinking that
happens with people on thespectrum and autism.
I can see where that wouldactually be advantageous.
(02:43):
When you're sitting as a judgeis that is that so do you find
that it is advantageous.
It also can have its downsidebecause I tend to try to hold
people to the letter of the law,to the point where you know even
exactly word for word, but overthe years I've learned how to
ease up on that a bit.
(03:04):
And not, you know, be quite thatstrict.
I don't have to interpreteverything in black and white.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, I know, I know there's alot of times in my life where I
have thought that that was theway it was because that's what
it says, you know?
Yes and, that leads me into the,one of the, things that stuck in
(03:24):
my head as we're all taught aschildren about the Constitution
and that all men are createdequal.
And that's something that I tookat very literally, and have
interpreted that reallyliterally.
And it seems to lead into thatthat other autistic trait of not
(03:51):
really understanding socialhierarchy.
Sure.
And that there are those things.
And so those two, those twothings have acted very kind of
opposing me in a lot of ways.
And I'm, I'm wondering if you'vehad similar experiences with
that or other things that aretaken literally or ways of
(04:12):
looking at things, or maybethere are stories about social
hierarchy and boundaries thatyou didn't understand at some
point.
That's a lot of questions.
Sorry.
Okay.
It's okay.
As far as created equally, Inever thought of it as relating
back to that, but I can see howit certainly would because I
know I viewed people as thinkinglike me and not in a negative
(04:38):
way, not in a way that I canunderstand what people are
thinking, more of a, when Ididn't understand that other
people have differentexperiences that would cause
them to think differently.
I started out with this levelplaying field of thinking we're
all equal, as you say, said so.
(04:58):
And so that made it so that Iwas quite surprised when I would
learn that people thinkdifferently.
And I'm talking about opinions,not necessarily that they'd have
different feelings, in a certainsituation, but that they'd have
different opinions than I hadbecause again, as a lawyer, you
know, it's the constitution, youknow, we have to follow it.
(05:21):
Exactly.
We take it literally.
You know, everyone must agreethat we should take it
literally.
And so it was an awakening.
to find out that there are somany different interpretations
and that makes up so much of thelaw is interpreting statutes and
cases and the constitution fromdifferent points of view.
(05:45):
Yeah, the the differentperspectives can be a bit
unnerving.
And I know there've been lots oftimes where I just cannot
understand how people couldpossibly arrive at that.
At that conclusion, given thesame information, but yeah, yes,
exactly.
Yes.
It's so obvious, right?
Right, except it's really not.
(06:05):
Right.
I mean, everybody does have,whether you're autistic or ADHD
or whatever, people have verydifferent outlooks.
They have differentperspectives.
When it comes to ableism andprejudice against autistic
people, have you seen that withother people or experienced it
(06:26):
yourself?
In a sense I experienced thatfrom young because I was treated
like I was so called normal orneurotypical, and so experienced
that.
way.
So in a sense, that's a type ofableism when people are always
expecting you to be as othersare.
(06:46):
And then having been having goneto a private parochial school
for the first time.
for grades.
Anyway, that definitely is.
Let's all be alike.
And you shouldn't think outsidethe box.
And that's where, you know, Ieven see it in the law.
(07:07):
I think that thinking outsidethe box and being different and
not thinking like other peoplehas been an advantage, but it
also can be a detriment.
When again, people want me totoe the line and be like them.
It's one reason why I have ahard time working in a
corporation or an organizationbecause I can't, I can't do it.
(07:32):
I just can't.
you know, have that same mindsetthat you're supposed to have.
So in that way, you know, peopledidn't know I was autistic.
Still, most people don't know.
So they wouldn't understand whythey were expecting me to act
like everyone else and why thatwas impossible to do so.
So you said a lot of peopledon't know that you are
(07:55):
autistic.
Right.
Do you have strategies or haveyou developed rules for when you
tell people or who you tell orhow you interact around that?
How do you strategize?
Right.
Well, because, believe it ornot, there's so much bias in the
legal profession and also in thelegal profession, they're late
(08:19):
adapters.
So what I mean by that, when itcomes to technology, for
example, some attorneys arestill proud of the fact that
they don't have email.
So yeah, it takes a long timefor people to come around, and I
know that there would not beacceptance of me in the legal
profession.
So I have kept that, you know,to myself.
(08:40):
So there are other lawyers don'tknow, other judges don't know,
because there is this, you know,idea of what we think a judge
should be, and no one thinksthat person would be autistic.
There even are, there's at leastone other attorney I've talked
to who is autistic, not inArizona.
And even she has no clue abouthow you would approach that as a
(09:05):
judge with other judges.
So I have only told a couple ofclose friends and a few family
members.
I am that certain that I wouldhave pushback from other family
members that I'm, I'm not goingto tell them.
Wow.
Wow.
Different.
This really different than myexperience, which has been, you
(09:25):
know, I'm just by nature verytransparent.
And so it's only with like,after the fact thinking, okay, I
probably shouldn't have toldthose people or even.
So this is something that I feellike I'm experiencing a bit now,
even if I don't tell people.
I feel like they know there'ssomething different about me.
And it seems like it's morenoticeable as I get older.
(09:49):
Like there was more grace as ayounger person to be a little
bit different.
And of course I, I grew up inthe San Francisco Bay Area,
which is like a melting pot ofpeople that are just kind of,
you know, crazy in themselves.
do wacky things.
So maybe I was more camouflagedthere.
But as an older person now, Ifind like I stand out more.
(10:11):
And there's this turn up term,the uncanny valley.
Are you familiar with that?
Usually used to describe whenanime or cartoons get too close
to being human.
It disturbs us.
Interesting.
(10:31):
And, and so they, and it, it hasa creep factor, like people
don't want to watch it becauseof that.
And so I'm almost feeling like,and I looked it up today, in
fact, about how Uncanny Valleykind of applies to autism.
People, especially with higherfunctioning autistic people,
sometimes I think people sensethat something's different.
(10:54):
bit, but they don't know what itis.
And so it creates this, thisdifference.
And then along with that,there's, there's so many
autistic traits that could beviewed as like negative
personality, right?
Like, Things about boundariesthings about not understanding,
you you don't approach your bossin that way because there's a
(11:16):
social hierarchy and, you know,black and white thinking where
you're digging your heels in onsomething.
So when we have these, thisgroup of things that I'm talking
about the uncanny valley and thepersonality traits.
You know, is it fair to callthat ableism?
Like, I'm going through my headwith this.
And is it prejudice?
(11:37):
Is it ableism?
Where is the line?
And how do we get things toshift other than your podcast,
which is doing a good job ofeducating people?
Well, thank you.
Yes.
How do we get people to shift?
I agree with you about thepersonality thing.
I think people think mypersonality is be is that I'm
very quiet.
(11:57):
And that's not my personality.
You know, as you and I aretalking, I'm very comfortable
talking to you.
So I'm not, I wouldn't callmyself shy, but when I'm in a
social situation withneurotypical people, I do keep
very quiet.
Like many autistics, I don'talways know what to say.
I'm afraid I'll say the wrongthing.
(12:18):
Or I'm afraid I'll blurtsomething out that I shouldn't.
And also, you know, knowing whenit's my turn to speak is a
problem.
So yes, is it ableism when theother parties don't even
understand what it is they'reexpecting of us?
That's I think the whole idea ofableism is still being explored.
(12:40):
Looking at it through a legallens, the American Disabilities
Act.
Covers people that arehandicapped, but is autism a
handicap and is havingpersonality traits and being
autistic, where it may be offputting to people, something
(13:02):
that can fall under.
a disability or a legalprotection?
As an autistic person, as far asa disability, from what I
understand under the federallaw, it does qualify.
But when we talk aboutemployment you know, sometimes
employment, the kinds ofaccommodations we need are not
(13:22):
the kind of accommodationsemployers are used to.
So, you know, that's where wesee some of the bias come in, I
think.
I would say that You know, I dothink we need to make
accommodations and need tounderstand though what it is an
autistic person needs.
And that most of all, I thinkthere's not an understanding
(13:44):
that these disabilities dointerfere with our daily life.
You know, you and I can have aconversation and we seem like
we're not challenged by life.
And then we know when we turnoff the camera, we know what the
challenges are.
each and every day and how muchit would help to have someone
there to do many of the thingswe can't do like socialize,
(14:08):
right?
Or no, you know, like, like, Ithink I was making I've made a
little joke a few times abouthaving a seeing eye dog or a
person with me who can interpretlike what just happened, you
know, but it can be such a aburden on good friends to
constantly be asking them, thissituation happened.
(14:29):
You know, this is how I'minterpreting it.
Does that seem right?
Yes, yes.
Our friends get tired of that.
Yes.
Right.
And you know, I have atherapist, but I only see her
once a week.
And she's autistic, too.
So it's a little like the blindleading the blind sometimes,
although she's very good at whatshe does.
Yeah, it's It's a thing.
(14:51):
It's a thing that people reallydon't appreciate and don't
understand how hard we work todo or to be in social situations
and tasks that other people doeffortlessly.
Right.
And you know, to your pointabout having someone help us, I
was at a function years ago, andthere was a politician there,
(15:12):
and as he was going from groupof person to group of person, he
had like an aide next to him,whispering in his ear, Oh, this
is the man that was introducedto you at so and so, and he's
donated so much to yourcampaign.
And he would say that real fast.
And then the politician couldshake his hand and say, Oh,
thank you.
It was so good to see you onsuch and such a date, you know,
(15:36):
and I have never forgotten thatbecause now that I know I'm
autistic, I want that kind ofperson there with me, you know,
make sure you say this, makesure you say that, that would be
so wonderful.
It would be.
And.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat would be very good at that
job.
Yes, absolutely.
(15:57):
Yeah, I would, I would like,let's each order one for
Christmas.
Okay, and we'll see whathappens.
I don't know where they're goingto come from, or where they're
going to get training, but Iwould like to see that happen.
And it doesn't seem like it'sthat unrealistic.
And you know what's interesting?
You said they need training.
(16:18):
The funny thing is, I imaginethat really outgoing people
don't need any training.
Don't need any training.
They're just going to know whatto do.
It's natural.
I'm envious of that.
How easily they can talk toother people.
They thrive on that in fact.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think a lot of times insocial situations, I have been
(16:39):
very quiet to a point, and thenI just say, the heck with it,
and I do blurt things out, and Iam myself, only to then get
quiet afterwards, watching howpeople are reacting and
thinking, oh, you know, I haveno idea what I just said, or, or
what I said that was wrong, andit's, It's really confusing.
(17:03):
It is.
Absolutely.
And it seems like no matter howmuch I observe in other people
who seem to, you know, are atease with social things, I still
can't pull it off.
You know, I'll be convinced Ican pull it off and then go to a
function and then I'll saysomething.
And I'll see, like you said,that look on people's faces or
(17:25):
when I get home, then it justgoes over and over in my mind,
over and over and over.
Why did you say that?
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, and for the longesttime I thought other people
experience some of that too, andmaybe they do to some degree,
but probably nowhere near asmuch.
(17:46):
Right.
Yes.
And so much of my life was justtrying to get this information
that everyone seemed to havenaturally.
So I could learn how toconverse.
So I could learn how to makefriends.
And I thought everyone else hadthese same challenges.
No, they don't.
But you have some superpowers.
(18:07):
What are some of yoursuperpowers?
I think being creative is one ofthe ones that I, I really am
appreciative of.
I can also see things from apoint of view that other people
don't.
And I know that because.
There have been times when I'vecome up with a solution to a
problem and everyone's like, Oh,we hadn't thought of that.
(18:29):
But to me, it seemed obvious.
In fact, I usually stay realquiet because I think this is so
obvious, you know, why aren'tthey saying it?
They must have ruled it out.
So Those are a couple thingsthat I'm an idea person and then
I'm creative.
Did you do well in school?
I did through high school.
(18:50):
And then when I got to college,it was terrible.
I didn't know how to study.
The environment, being in aclassroom with 500 people, that
was way too much.
And the, the, you know, socialsituation that is, does exist in
school.
I just, would go from class toclass without speaking to
(19:10):
anyone.
If I said hello, I thought I wasbeing outgoing just by saying
hello.
So yeah, it took me 10 years toget my bachelor's degree because
I would drop out because of thepressure and then I'd go back
and then I'd drop out and goback.
Wow.
It sounds really stressful.
It was.
Yes.
(19:30):
Yeah, I know.
I, I started, I started collegeat least five or six times.
And I'm sure I have enoughcredit somewhere for some sort
of degree, but I don't, but Idon't actually have one.
Yeah.
So, I mean, kudos to you forlike keeping at it.
And I had the encouragement ofmy mother at the time who said,
(19:51):
even if you take just one courseat a time, eventually you'll
have a degree.
So I had that, and then once Idecided I wanted to go to law
school, I had that final, youknow, inspiration to keep going
and get it done.
Yeah.
Things are so hard for autisticpeople that there is a really
(20:11):
high suicide rate.
Yes, absolutely.
Do you have statistics off thetop of your head on that or, or
just information or maybe peopleyou've known?
Yes, actually in the last fewyears I've lost two immediate
family members to suicide.
So it is something I'm, I'm,Very familiar with.
(20:32):
Unfortunately, I believe one ofthem was undiagnosed autistic
and the other one I doubt wasautistic.
There's not only a high rate ofsuicide.
I think there's a high rate ofaddiction as well.
I'm convinced that people whowho are autistic have a harder
time of breaking addictions.
(20:54):
And you know, we hear aboutpeople who smoke and then they
quit smoking and I've seenpeople who I know are autistic
who have tried to quit smokingtheir whole lifetime and they
can't do it.
So it does make me wonderanyway, and I doubt there's any
science regarding that, but itdoes make me wonder.
Well, someone said something.
(21:16):
And, and I'm sorry about yourlosses.
I I lost a son to suicide.
My son also, I lost a son.
And I'm, I talked to his bestfriend after I found out I was
autistic and said, do you thinkMy son was autistic.
And do you think he knew becausehe was such an outside the box
(21:37):
thinker and he was, he was a lawstudent also.
And his friend said, yeah, I, I,I think he was, I'm pretty sure
he was.
I don't know if he knew or not.
Huh.
I see.
Yeah.
So, hard, hard.
It is hard.
Yes, it's I believe my son wasautistic.
Again, I wasn't diagnosed so Ihad no way of even putting that
(22:01):
into context but he had specialinterests That he would get and
then learn everything he couldpossibly learn about them.
So he had a number of things inhis life that he had learned so
much about and become an expert.
And I remember one of hisfriends saying to me, You know,
he could do anything he wantedbecause he'd learn everything
(22:22):
there was about it.
So I knew it wasn't just me thatsaw him that way.
I also know he had socialchallenges.
Especially with relationshipswith, you know, having a
girlfriend that was really hardon him, hard for him to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That sounds very familiar.
(22:43):
Yeah.
So what else can we do toeducate people and to enact
changes.
Do you, do you think about that?
Do you have ideas?
You know, it's, it's easy to getdiscouraged because of the
(23:03):
biases that are out there.
And most of those biases are dueto a lack of education or
information.
I think that the approach I'mstarting to take is to, rather
than say I'm autistic to peoplethat I know are resistant, I
start to tell them a trait orsomething about me without
(23:24):
saying the word autism, with theidea that once I've laid the
groundwork enough, I will beable to say, see all those
things I've told you, that'swhat autism is.
That's why I have trouble with Xor Y is because of autism.
So it gives them a chance to buyinto the traits so that when I
finally do tell them, if I do.
(23:47):
They, they've had some way tobelieve it.
Otherwise, you know, you getanswers like everyone's a little
autistic, which is one thing Ido not like to hear because it's
not true.
So let's talk, let's talk aboutthe spectrum because they're,
they're confusing things aboutthat too.
And I too have done what youjust said and also had friends
(24:07):
say, Oh yeah, I'm pretty sureI'm neurodivergent also.
And, you know, they're notexactly the same thing,
neurodivergence and autism.
They are all on a spectrum, youknow, being a genius is part of
that spectrum too, from what Iunderstand.
And yeah, there are just, thereare a lot of challenges.
And then there's also this, Idon't, I don't want to make a
(24:31):
line because it's a spectrum oflike lower functioning and
higher functioning autism, butit's something that.
I'm not sure how to address.
I, I, I want to be fair.
I mean, everybody on thespectrum is so different, even
though there are all of thesecommon traits, you know, that
(24:52):
you may have some, but not allof right.
Right.
I think that I, when I heardfrom one more person about it
being on a spectrum, which thatperson sees it as a straight
line, you know, from, you know,Black to white kind of thing.
And sometimes I think of it morelike a scattergram or something.
I finally thought to myself, Ithink maybe what people are
(25:15):
mistaking is not the medicaldefinition that we know of,
which is social issues, youknow, hyper fixated interests
and sensitivities.
That's all it takes to bediagnosed autistic.
Now, these other things that weknow are common traits.
I think people are thinking theyhave a few of those traits, so
(25:37):
it makes them on the spectrum.
And it doesn't necessarily, asyou and I know, we have some
traits that are neurotypical,but that doesn't make us on the
spectrum of neurotypicals.
So I think that we're hearingthese misstatements by people
who really aren't on thespectrum, who think if I have a
(26:00):
few traits, That's what makes mea little bit autistic, and I
don't think that's true.
Yeah, it takes a professional tohave the diagnosis, and as has
been said, autistic traits arenot, they're not separate from
being human, they're justexaggerated.
(26:23):
Yes, they're still human traits.
Yeah.
So there's something that was onthe tip of my tongue before and
I lost it.
Let me, give me a sec here.
Of course.
Oh, the dendrites.
So someone said, and thedendrites don't die back.
(26:44):
In an autistic brain.
Ah, interesting.
Have you heard that?
I had not heard that before.
So there's this book, I'm goingto go back and just sort of fast
forward.
There's this book that my horsetrainer a few years ago came
across called Horse Brain, HumanBrain that got me really, and
she's a trauma therapist, andgot me really interested in the
(27:07):
neurochemicals, which are prettybuzzy right now.
A lot of people talk aboutneurochemicals and different So
all different aspects fromactivities from primitive
cultures to what happened to usin COVID.
And I started paying moreattention to the very base level
neuroscience.
And so when someone said in anautistic brain, the dendrites
(27:30):
don't die back, like we havethese neuropathways, right?
Like you learn to spell a word.
And once you learn the rightway, all the wrong ways that you
were spelling that word kind ofgo away.
Sure.
It explains why I'm a badspeller, but in an autistic
person, those other pathwaysdon't all go away.
(27:52):
So anytime we're talking about asubject, a lot of autistic
people can recall all kinds offacts.
about that, or things that aresimilar, that they've
categorized that way.
So our brains make these webs.
And I think that, to me explainsa few things.
(28:16):
I have this huge question.
It's really a question for aneuroscientist, not not an
attorney.
But like if we're treated forPTSD, or Or you're making
progress in some kind of apersonal growth way.
The things, the traumas or thethings that happen are not going
(28:38):
to die back the way they do in anormal brain.
I see what you're saying.
Sure.
And that makes a lot of sense.
It's yeah, I'm sure that traumais differently processed by the
autistic brain.
It just has to be right.
And this goes back to what youwere saying about addiction.
Like you have some theories.
(28:58):
about that.
And I wonder if those things areinterrelated.
That would make sense.
How do you rewrite the brainwhen it has an addiction problem
to not have that, you know, howdoes, how do people do that?
I don't think that's possible.
Yeah.
Well, I think it, I think it'sharder and maybe different
(29:19):
strategies need to be used, butExactly.
And when they don't need to beguilt and shame that doesn't
seem to work for an autisticperson.
Maybe it does work for peoplewho aren't, but I think there's
too much of the system was builtaround guilt and shame.
And that's, you know, whenyou're talking about people who
(29:39):
already are carrying around likeyou said trauma and guilt and
shame from all of that, makingthem feel ashamed of the fact
that they have an addictionproblem.
I haven't seen that besuccessful with autistic people.
No, and I think that the shameis the main thing behind most
addiction and, you know, acrossthe board that that's like how
(30:02):
our culture handles handles thatit registers in the brain in a
different part of the brain thanemotions do it registers in the
part of the brain with physicalpain.
Ah, interesting.
Yeah, so, hmm.
Yeah, so the prejudice, I, I, Iimagine someday that there'll be
(30:30):
enough education about howdifferent people's brains work.
That there'll be legislationalso that protects people from
Being mistreated because thePTSD and the trauma we're
talking about for myself andprobably for you just living in
(30:50):
a world that's made for peoplethat are different than us racks
up enough of that trauma.
That I don't know how to say it.
Yeah, it's definitely traumathat we have had to deal with
since we were quite young, andit continues.
And I think that, and I don'tknow if this is true of you, but
(31:12):
I think a lot of autistic peopleare highly sensitive sensitive
to hurt.
Sensitive to happiness to wejust take delight in things that
are that make us happy, youknow, but the things that people
say that can really hurt usdeeply, that just piles on over
(31:32):
the years.
And so that makes it very hardto deal with PTSD.
And I don't know that there aremany people who know how to
relate to an autistic personwith PTSD.
And is it even different?
I don't know.
Yeah.
I'm not, I'm not sure.
I've been doing this EMDR withmy autistic therapist and it's
(31:54):
working, you know, it's takenthe edge off of all kinds of
stuff.
So I think that there is hope.
I just, I just wish peopleunderstood to just arrive and
function, how much more work itis.
Yes, yes.
And the societal norms is thatif you don't work an eight hour
(32:17):
day, you're lazy or you're, youknow, you're unproductive where
many of us can work an eighthour day and do all that amount
of work in four hours, but thenwe need to be able to just chill
after that or go home and take anap or something.
And that's not valued.
The, the work you do is lessvalued than the amount of hours
(32:38):
you put in in some cases.
And that's hard for an autisticperson, to, to have long hours
that go on and on.
Yeah, and not fair.
Just not fair.
Right.
Exactly.
It should be about what we areable to produce, what we can do.
And I think that's why, like, Iinterviewed A man named Sean
(32:59):
about his autism and he wastalking about having to learn to
not give a hundred and fiftypercent, you know, to give
seventy percent because hisseventy percent was easily a
hundred percent of somebodyelse.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think people knowhow hard it is for us to even
get up in the morning and getgoing, you know, and yeah, we
(33:23):
can be organized, but thatdoesn't mean we'll go through
that whole list and doeverything that's on it.
Right, right.
It's interesting to me how we'reall so different too.
What, what inspired you to dothe podcast?
Well, when I learned I wasautistic, I did want to tell the
world.
(33:43):
That was my first thought.
I want to tell everyone sothey'll know there's nothing
wrong with me, which is sort offunny.
But I wanted my family tounderstand what life had been
like for me so they could knowwhat autism was from in my case.
And I didn't know as much aboutit as you probably have
experienced.
(34:04):
We're learning more every day.
Ourselves.
Yes.
And so I did the podcast just asa way to let people know what
it'd been like.
And as it turned out, my familywasn't that interested in
listening to it, which is finebecause other people were.
So that's how it came aboutthough, as a way to communicate
with them.
Yeah.
(34:24):
And you have, you're in the topone half percent.
Yes.
That's, that's amazing.
Like, are there numbers that goalong with that?
Do you have any idea what theirnumbers are?
Well, this is from listen notes.
And that's who ranks people.
And they come up with alistening score.
(34:45):
And I think that's based on thenumber of listeners, how
frequently you put out anepisode and, you know, whether
people continue to listen.
So I don't know, because they'renot going to tell their
proprietary formula.
I don't know.
But I think those are some ofthe things that go into it.
I think also if a person haslasted a while, you know, cause
(35:06):
there are a lot of people whostart a podcast and then it just
lasts a few episodes.
So if you can stay in thereyears and years, I think that
adds to the ranking as well.
And how long have you been doingthe podcast?
This is my fourth year, soJanuary 1st will be starting my
fifth year.
Wow, that's amazing.
(35:28):
Yeah, I send your podcast to allkinds of people, always
forwarding them.
I probably forwarded more ofyours than mine, which is okay,
because I want people to reallyunderstand, you know.
More people need to understandautism than horses, probably.
(35:48):
So, I try to bring, as I've beeninterviewing people, that has
very little or nothing at all todo with horses, I like to bring
it back somehow.
So, autistic people, People andanimals being sensitive and
animals.
Do you have special animals inyour life?
Have you felt like you hadstronger bonds with them because
of the autism?
(36:08):
Yes.
I never knew it was because ofautism.
I have cats now, but I'd haddogs my whole life.
And then once I was on my own,you know, not married any
longer, then it was just easierto take care of cats.
But I actually worked on workstudy in college and working at
the local zoo.
(36:28):
So That's where I developed alove of birds and I had had a
parrot, parakeet, a macaw at onetime.
Also, my father had what I calla gentleman's farm.
It was a gentleman farmer, so tospeak, which was six acres.
And he had, you know, sheep andhorses, no cattle.
(36:49):
And then I guess to add to thatin college, I took a class
called animal science.
Which was about cattle, horses,sheep, chickens, and those kinds
of things.
I, I've had chickens off and onthroughout my life.
So yeah, I'm definitely ananimal person.
How about ESP or, or specialabilities, clairvoyance,
(37:16):
clairaudience, anything likethat in with you or your family
that you, any connection you seebetween that and being on the
spectrum?
You know, I didn't call it ESP,but I know there's cases where I
can size up a personimmediately, and it is like a
sense I have for who they are.
(37:36):
And so, you know, we're oftentold that we don't have empathy.
But I think autistic people havesomething else we maybe can't
explain and maybe ESP is theright word for it.
And that is the way we can sizeup a person, sometimes a
situation, just almostinstantly.
And I have heard it from otherautistic people as well.
(37:58):
I do know one autistic personwho, yes, has, vivid dreams
about the future, for example,and that, and then many of those
things actually come to fruitionprophetic dreams.
Yeah.
Yes.
Now I felt like I could, and nowI believe it's due to autism,
see patterns and trends.
(38:18):
Now we know patterns are, butthe seeing those patterns helped
me predict trends in the.
past and therefore I could getahead of them and, and be more
successful in whatever it was Iwas doing.
for example, in the legalprofession, advertising used to
be illegal.
We couldn't advertise.
(38:40):
And then as soon as the SupremeCourt said we could, well,
again, attorneys are lateadapters.
They thought it would be wrongto advertise, it would take down
the respect of our profession,but I ran with it and started
the advertising and did it in asophisticated way.
It became more of a.
informing people rather thanambulance chasing as you've
(39:02):
heard that term probably.
So I think then finallyattorneys started to adopt that.
But I feel like we were ahead ofthe curve with, with advertising
and doing it in a way thatrespected the listeners.
Yeah, the pattern seeingpatterns can be can be a really
(39:25):
good thing.
Yes, I value that very much.
Yeah.
Is there anything else that youwould like to talk about?
You know, one of the things thatI have really been surprised by
but appreciate is the amount ofsupport there is from the
autistic community.
(39:47):
And I even see it in YouTube aswell as podcasts.
And I like to encourage thatamongst podcasters, that we
really should support eachother.
I don't see us as competing.
No, I don't either.
Yeah, we all have a similar goaland that is to increase
awareness to provide informationand education and it's to all of
(40:11):
our benefit to help each other.
So as I see that I'm reallypleased about it.
Yeah, I think that that's apowerful, it's a powerful
statement and a way that moreeducation can get out there for
sure.
Yes, definitely.
And I think that's the wholepoint.
(40:33):
Yes, it is.
It's the reason we startpodcasts.
I think, you know, you wantpeople to know and all of us
have the same goal, really.
Absolutely.
Well, I think this might be agood place to wind up.
Okay.
Thank you so much.
I have enjoyed getting to chatwith you and get to know you a
(40:55):
little bit.
It's been wonderful.
I'm glad we got to talk.
Yeah, me too.
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