Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:01):
Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are
you plagued by siloedapartments? Are your lackluster
growth strategies demolishingyour chances for success? Are
you held captive by the evilmenace, lord lack, lack of time,
lack of strategy, and lack ofthe most important and powerful
(00:22):
tool in your superhero toolbelt? Knowledge.
Never fear hub heroes. Get readyto don your cape and mask, move
into action, and become the hubhero your organization needs.
Tune in each week to join theleague of extraordinary inbound
heroes as we help you educate,empower, and execute. Of heroes,
(00:47):
it's time to unite and activateyour powers.
Max Cohen (00:53):
George, I gotta I gotta ask you. Is the person who
reached out to you Lord Loop?
George B. Thomas (00:58):
No. It's not Lord Loop. It wasn't even Oh my
god. It wasn't even Lord Lact.
Max Cohen (01:02):
Where's the sad trombone? Where is that?
George B. Thomas (01:05):
The the sad trombone. Break them, John. Hang
on. Hang on.
Max Cohen (01:10):
Yeah. Here we go, guys.
Liz Moorehead (01:13):
How's everybody doing this morning?
Max Cohen (01:15):
Oh, just amazing. Dude, how are you, Liz?
Wonderful. Most importantquestion.
Liz Moorehead (01:19):
I am so glad you asked. Yeah. It was my birthday
yesterday. And next to me, Ihave the coolest birthday gift I
have ever received in
Max Cohen (01:29):
my life. Can I show you guys?
Chad Hohn (01:30):
Yep. Show it. What is it?
Liz Moorehead (01:32):
A Val Schumer autographed picture of him
playing Jim Morrison. And myfavorite part is the way he
signed it. He just put Jim inquotes. Wow.
George B. Thomas (01:42):
Nice. Wow. That is awesome. I'm I'm without
words.
Liz Moorehead (01:48):
I know. It's for it's a gift for a niche audience
and the niche
Max Cohen (01:52):
is the size of just me. But I'm very happy.
George B. Thomas (01:55):
That's cool. That's cool, though. That by the
way, I know I texted you, butbut since we're on the show,
happy birthday, Liz.
Max Cohen (02:02):
Happy can we sing happy birthday,
Chad Hohn (02:04):
though? Happy birthday.
George B. Thomas (02:24):
Guys, we should start up with the boy
band. Five. We we should startup with that. That was dope.
Now, Liz I think
Chad Hohn (02:29):
that thirty five millisecond delay was killing
it. We were in sync, dude. Yes.Sync. We
Max Cohen (02:34):
were in sync, bro. To say is to the women out there
listening, ladies, step back.They're all mine.
Liz Moorehead (02:39):
Yes. Line.
Max Cohen (02:40):
Correct.
Liz Moorehead (02:41):
Calm down. But let's move on to what I know is
going to be Max's favorite topictoday. But are you ready?
Max Cohen (02:48):
Get an angry email.
Liz Moorehead (02:49):
Loop Marketing Express part two, Electric
Boogaloo. We are back. Right? Soif you missed last week's
episode, I'm gonna have to tellyou to go and listen to that one
first because it's just
Max Cohen (03:05):
have to go get it.
Liz Moorehead (03:06):
There's an irony to all of this, guys, because
express is all about clarity,expression, voice and tone, and
we only got through twoquestions of our outline last
week. Today we are going to begetting into the hows, the
tactics, the tools, the HubSpottechnology of how you actually
(03:27):
employ Express using HubSpottools. But I've gotta be honest.
Okay?
Max Cohen (03:33):
Be honest.
Liz Moorehead (03:33):
I'm just gonna say the conversations we've been
having over the past couple ofweeks about loop marketing have
been fascinating, like Jim airquotes. Fascinating. I mentioned
this in the last episode butthis is the first time I've seen
a product rollout from HubSpotwhere we are struggling to move
through the what and the whybehind it. So I want to start
(03:57):
off today's conversation, andthis is where we're gonna get
all of our feelings out beforewe get into the actual tactics.
Gentlemen, how are you allfeeling about last week's
episode?
Max Cohen (04:07):
Oh, man. I feel like I needed to get that out for a
while. Felt It felt cathartic.And, you know, I I feel excited
to figure it out.
Because, like, what I've learned is over the years,
especially with
HubSpot, I tend to not learn something until I get
(04:29):
super frustrated with notunderstanding it. And I'm
looking at this as the nextthing I'd like to overcome in
that regard.
Liz Moorehead (04:36):
Interesting. So glad we're a part of your
process.
George B. Thomas (04:39):
Yeah. No. It's my brain immediately goes to is
that where inbound physics camefrom? Because Max, at one point,
you were like, I needed a
Max Cohen (04:48):
deep yeah.
George B. Thomas (04:49):
You know? So
Max Cohen (04:49):
Inbound physics was my my way of understanding it in
a very simple manner that workswith the way my mental model is
set up.
George B. Thomas (04:59):
Yeah. And if you're if you're listening to
this or watching this and you'relike, inbound physics, just just
Google Hub Heroes podcast,inbound physics. There's there's
an episode for that. Chad, I'mgonna wait. I want you to go
first as far as how you'reyou're feeling about last week's
episode.
Chad Hohn (05:13):
Yeah. I think this this week, we have a real
opportunity, I think, to unpacksome of some of the specifics
in, like, how HubSpot intendsyou to do this. Right? And I
think that's gonna help bring alot of clarity. It's not the
only place that you can do thiskind of stuff, but they've,
like, tailored it to making thisa playbook for how to really
(05:36):
succeed with HubSpot.
And in the context of HubSpot,this can make a lot of sense, I
think. So I think that we canreally pull a lot of things
together.
George B. Thomas (05:44):
Yeah. So, Liz, how did you feel about last
week's episode?
Liz Moorehead (05:49):
I'll be honest. Pretty much what I said during
last week's episode is that Ihave seen heated debates. I have
seen friction and I have seendisagreements about the funnel
versus the flywheel aboutshifting dynamics and how the
inbound methodology is deployed.I think this friction, it's not
(06:10):
that we're seeing with theseconversations, it's not fatal by
any means, but it is telling.Because one of the things that
we talked about last week isthat this isn't about humans
informing strategy, this is aproduct informed strategy move.
And I don't necessarily feelbadly about it, but again, it
(06:31):
brings me back to what problemwere we really trying to solve
with loop marketing. Yeah.Because it's presented as a
methodology, like this humanfirst framework, but it's about
getting people to use theproduct.
George B. Thomas (06:44):
Well, they call it
Liz Moorehead (06:45):
a inherently yeah. It's not inherently bad.
George B. Thomas (06:49):
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (06:49):
But, and I'm not saying it's, you know, but
that's kind of how I feel aboutit is that this rollout has felt
weirder. Yeah. And it reminds meof what happened when the
Content Hub rolled out where Isaid they really need to do a
better job of messaging withtheir partners or their
messaging in general becausethere's just a lot of confusion.
(07:12):
Like I had a couple folks reachout, reach out to me on LinkedIn
after listening to last week'sepisode. No one said that you
made them sad, Max.
You'd be very happy about that.But they did say, Wow, thank
you. I thought I was goingcrazy.
George B. Thomas (07:26):
Yeah. See, and see, this is where I'll jump in
because I loved last week'sepisode. Love last week's
episode because I feel like wereached a place where a lot of
humans were or are and areafraid to say that they are
actually at. Right? Or they'rejust not saying it out loud or
they don't have the place to sayit out loud.
(07:49):
And again, this is why I duginto like, Guys, I want to talk
about this at a deeper level.Everybody's trying to do it in
one video. Everybody's trying todo a broad brushstroke. And
there's so much granularity tothe conversation that needs to
happen. And what I love aboutlast week is it is a
foundational piece to get usinto what we're going to dive in
(08:12):
today and what we're going todive in in the future on some of
these other stages or places ofwhat is this playbook that is
loop marketing.
We're going to be able to do ourbest to try to figure it out, to
try to simplify it, to try tohelp others at least take some
(08:33):
tactical real world. Here's whatthat means. And maybe even as
Liz, you alluded last week, whatit has meant for years before
somebody tried to put adifferent word on it. Like, so,
so I'm excited and, and I lovedlast week.
Liz Moorehead (08:50):
Well, let's find new ways to love this week. It's
a new week. It's a new day.Yeah. It's a new adventure.
So George, I want you you arenow in the position of power of
keeping the cats herded becauseI want us to get to the tools
and tactics, not the what andthe why, but the how. Yeah. So I
wanna turn to you and ask you,how do you actually teach your
(09:13):
brand's voice to AI tools inHubSpot so they don't spit out
that generic content, right? Arethe practical tools or processes
that you've seen work foryourself or with clients?
George B. Thomas (09:24):
Yeah. So a couple of things I'm going to
try to do this in steps, and Imay even ask if there's any
feedback or thoughts during thesteps. But some things that I
want to make sure we talk aboutis one, gathering a small
collection of your best workthat sounds like you a a voice,
(09:47):
a pile of of content, if youwill. Like, this might be 12 to
20 pieces that are the most youhistorically that you've
created. So we'll we'll comewe'll swing back to this.
So that's a gather gather youdid the digital you. There's
also this idea that I want totalk about of making like a one
(10:07):
pager. Think of this as likeyour ultimate voice card,
something that you could hand toa human or something you could
hand to any LLM. And immediatelythey would understand the
context of who you are, whereyou work, the way that you want
to, we'll circle back around onthat as well because there's
some specificities. I also wannathink that we could talk about
(10:32):
how there's this golden set.
Like after you've kind of usedAI for a while and you get a
really good output or outputs,capturing those and using those
as examples. You could use theword examples, but I want them
to be like this. The other thingthat has helped for us as an
(10:54):
organization while we've gonethrough this whole process, and
again, HubSpot mentioned hybridteams. Creating a prompt stack
or a a prompt library that youcan hand to other humans in your
organization when you buildsomething that you know works
(11:14):
based on the foundation thatyou've put into place. Because,
again, a big piece of this iskeeping humans in the loop.
Okay. Alright. Yeah, I did it. Idid it. So let's let's circle
back around to step like kind ofstep one or or whatever.
(11:35):
Yeah, let's call it step one.Gathering the content. And now
here's the thing. HubSpot givesyou the ability when you go to
set up your brand voice toupload information or to connect
to information that you may havealready been creating in
HubSpot. So, want everybody tokind of think about how their
(11:58):
mind might go.
It's twelve, fifteen, 20 piecesof content that feels most like
you. By the way, we're talkingin the context of Hubs, but you
could totally use this withPerplexity or ChatGPT or any
other LLM if you wanted to. Sojust know that this is rinsible
and reusable outside of Breezeand HubSpot's voice and tone
(12:21):
tools and things like that. ButI want you to think, I've
watched people go through thisprocess and usually they
immediately go to blogs and onlyblogs. And what I would suggest
is that you think about emails,you think about blog articles,
you think about pages.
Even think about unstructureddata. And what I mean by that is
like, think about transcripts ofcalls that maybe you've had or
(12:43):
interviews that you've done. Andthis could be internal
interviews, like a mix ofdifferent content types is good
to kind of get that voice pileor the things that you want to
use. I would even suggest, andLiz, when we went through the
original workshop, you keptasking me questions like, well,
(13:05):
what are the what are the humansthat you're helping saying?
Like, what?
And so I would even suggest liketen, twenty, thirty, fifty,
depending on how many you havereal customer quotes, reviews,
calls, support ticket, whatever.We want their words, not just
(13:26):
our words. Here's the fun partis when we start to talk about
voice and tone, we immediatelygo to like, well, how do we want
to sound? How do we want tocommunicate with people who want
to hear from us? And so theirwords in there.
Liz Moorehead (13:40):
It's also how do they need you to
George B. Thomas (13:43):
How do they need us to show up? So that's
like gather this informationthat has been historically just
kind of floating around outthere so they can use it to
start to build. I'll shut upthere and Liz, I know you
probably have thoughts, but Maxand Chad, like let's just let's
use that to start theconversation.
Liz Moorehead (14:02):
You know, is one of my personal favorite topics.
One of the things I alwaysreally encourage people to do,
and George, you really dialedinto this nicely, you have to
remember the tools in HubSpotare actually quite simple and
intuitive to use. The challengeand where they become
ineffective is how dialed
Intro (14:28):
effective the choices you are making about your voice,
right? So for example, right,like you can have HubSpot, but
if your content strategy sucks,there's nothing wrong with the
platform, your content strategysucks. If you have a bad voice
and tone strategy ordocumentation,
Liz Moorehead (14:45):
dialed HubSpot cannot help you. It's not going
to work. The biggest piece ofadvice I would say is you have
to look at the instructions youdevelop for your voice and tone.
This is not a vanity exercise.This is not about your
aspirations, hopes, goals,dreams.
(15:06):
It's about the humans you serve,what they are feeling, and how
you need to show up. Like Iremember I used to hear from
folks, they would say, well, theway we develop our voice and
tone is we basically picked,like, what celebrity we wanted
to sound like. Right? K. If yourpeople need empathy, sounding
like Pitbull isn't going to help
George B. Thomas (15:27):
you.
Max Cohen (15:28):
Well, hold on.
Liz Moorehead (15:30):
I do love Pitbull. Do love Pitbull,
though.
Max Cohen (15:34):
Max, imagine if every single one of your blog posts
just started with Mr. Worldwide.Wide.
George B. Thomas (15:38):
That's funny.
Max Cohen (15:42):
I'd read that. I'd I might actually read if that was
the case. Right.
Chad Hohn (15:46):
Yeah. There's no snare in my headphones.
George B. Thomas (15:50):
That's funny.
Max Cohen (15:53):
You know what? Like, it kinda like feels to me as
like the I remember alwaysreaching this this point
onboarding Marketing Hubcustomers that in my head, I was
like, alright, now comes thehard work. Right? And it would
generally be after you geteverything set up and, like,
your ripe your your HubSpotaccount is ripe for just, like,
(16:16):
starting to pump out and createcontent and everything. And, you
know, the the burden thenshifted to the marketers or
copywriters or whoever, youknow, whatever sort of resource
you had to say, okay.
Now we have to make content.
George B. Thomas (16:32):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (16:33):
Right? And what it almost kind of sounds to me in
this sort of stage of express,right, this first one is that a
lot of that hard work has kindof shifted way, way, way more
into the beginning. So it'sless, oh, it's difficult for me
to write blog posts. Right? Andthat was like the human output
(16:55):
that was needed inside ofHubSpot.
Right? Well, now that that partof the equation is handled to
different, you know, varyingextents. I think it's probably a
spectrum of how much people,like, rely on
George B. Thomas (17:08):
Right.
Max Cohen (17:09):
AI to put fingers to keyboard. Right? But it sounds
like there's still this onething that AI is not gonna help
you do, and it's this.
Chad Hohn (17:19):
It's It's set up the AI.
Max Cohen (17:21):
It's yeah. Like, give it what it needs to go on.
Right? And like that to me stillis, I think, the fundamentally
hard thing for people to getover. It's like, oh, yeah, you
got this, you know, you got thisthese wonderful tools that will
actually create and generatecontent for you so you don't
have to spend time writing andand and doing all this kind of
(17:43):
stuff, or at least makes iteasier for you.
But before that even happens,you need to actually still do a
whole bunch of, like, legwork,which includes a lot of
thinking, a lot of writing, alot of, you know, human led
creation of stuff that this AIis actually gonna go off of.
(18:04):
Right? So, like and and what I'mwondering, right, as, you know,
strategists that work at partneragencies or customer success
specialists at HubSpot orinbound consultants or like any
of the people that are stilllike helping customers with
strategy, right, this is goingto be the new blog post hurdle.
(18:28):
Right? Where it's like, oh,yeah, we've got these wonderful
AI tools that can like write allthis stuff for you and like help
you create content better, butyou still are gonna hit this
wall where there's this, like,big intellectual intellectual
exercise you need to do at thebeginning for any of this to
work properly.
Right? And before we weretalking about, oh, the hard part
(18:49):
was like or I mean, depending onwho you are. The hard part was
getting your blog set up,getting your domains all hooked
up and, like, all that kind ofstuff. And that was like block.
The barrier to get into this.
Right? But now the barrier forthe AI to go do its job is still
a whole bunch of intellectualwork that you have to do in
order for it to do it in anymeaningful way.
George B. Thomas (19:10):
And can I dive into that for a second? Because
I think there's something thathappened to me, like, two years
ago that was a fundamentalmindset or shift that allowed me
to focus on and I agree, Max.This is the new hard thing. And
and let me explain why. So,like, when I got my fingers on
(19:32):
AI, and Liz was there at thebeginning of this, and I was
like, I'm testing this, and I'mtrying this, and let's hone
this, and let's tweak this,there was a mindset for me that
I didn't need AI to write blogs.
I wasn't looking for a airquotes writer. I, when I saw AI
in the output, I said, oh mygod, this is the fastest typist
(19:55):
on the planet. And my weaknesswas typing. I should have paid
attention in typing class, Ididn't. I'm a two to three
finger guy at best and so I waslike, okay, so if that's the
fastest typist, how do I makethis typist me?
And so what I started to do wasgive it all of the things that I
(20:16):
could give it of like, here'show I feel about this and that
in the And like, and so when Italk about like surface level of
like 12 to 20 pieces that areyou, there's a layer even before
that where like my AI assistant,I was able to go through a
process where I was able to giveit my mindset, my beliefs, my
(20:37):
core values. Now for you as anorganization, it would be your
mission. It would be yourvision. It would be your
company's core values, yourculture code. Like there's so
much stuff that we have layingaround that if we make sure it's
exactly what we wanted it to bein the first place, that we can
create this brain.
(20:58):
And again, you're talking to adude who literally cloned
himself with delphi.ai and wentthrough this whole process. And
there are some similarities towhat you as a human or what you
as an organization should bedoing cloning yourself to
thinking about what you'rebuilding from a brand voice tone
standpoint in HubSpot. And so assoon as I realized I could make
(21:21):
this typist, type basically whatI wanted to say, or close to
what I wanted to say, and then Icould iterate that and say, make
it more heartfelt, make it moreemotional, make it more in your
face. I don't like this, but canwe say that this way? Now retype
the whole thing.
Like as soon as that was themindset and I was literally
(21:43):
creating a version of SidekickStrategy, a version of George B
Thomas that could just typereally fast, It just made sense
for what I should get into themachine, how I should train the
machine.
Max Cohen (21:57):
Yeah. We use the word train. We use the word
assistant. We use the wordagent.
George B. Thomas (22:04):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (22:05):
These are all words that describe people. Okay?
George B. Thomas (22:09):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (22:10):
And I think there's this very, like, walking on
eggshells type of mentality thata lot of the folks that are
really pushing a lot of this AIstuff or this tightrope that
they're walking saying like,this is not a person that is
replacing anybody.
George B. Thomas (22:29):
Oh, is Max going there?
Max Cohen (22:30):
Right? Well, here I don't think it has to be a
person that replaces anybody.Yeah. Yeah. Right?
But I think this strategy startsto make a lot more sense when
you think of it as if you'reonboarding a new team member.
George B. Thomas (22:46):
Without his
Max Cohen (22:47):
doubt. When I hear all of this express stuff like,
again and I like, for me, like,just again, the word express,
like, again, don't know why Ikeep playing express yourself
like Doctor. Dre every singletime I hear it. Express
yourself. Right?
Yep. To me, express makes a lotmore sense when I replace it
(23:08):
with the word onboard. Yes.Because here's the thing, the AI
is something that kind of existsjust like a new employee would.
Right?
And until you train it on likeuntil you onboard them onto your
company, right? Yeah. And teachthem what your company's all
about. Yeah. How to do theirjob, your company's values, your
(23:29):
company's voice, how to talk tocustomers, all these things.
Right? The word onboard makes alot more sense to me than
express.
George B. Thomas (23:37):
Well, here's, I don't disagree with you. And
here's the thing I wanna back up50,000 foot because while we're
talking about AI today, HubSpotwas talking about hybrid teams,
which means it is kind of likeonboarding humans and onboarding
Yeah. Hybrid teammate. Yeah. Tobe able to work together.
Now, Liz, you just made a, like,a funja funja face. Need to know
(23:58):
what's going on in your brain.Like, talk to me.
Liz Moorehead (24:02):
Okay. It's like a semantic argument that I'm
hearing here. But and I don'tI'm so nervous to say this
because we have not done a greatjob of staying on track with
these conversations.
Max Cohen (24:15):
Are we talking about Express?
Liz Moorehead (24:17):
Yeah, Express. Express to me is exactly what it
says. Like, I actually thinkit's beautifully named. It's
about how you express yourself.It is your voice.
Max Cohen (24:26):
It is your tone.
Liz Moorehead (24:26):
It is the fully realized expression of your
brand. What I will say that I dolike about what you said, Max,
is that the function thatExpress completes is that
onboarding aspect.
Max Cohen (24:40):
Mhmm.
Liz Moorehead (24:40):
So I could see it there. I just I do like the
name. I have a lot of issueswith Loop Marketing, but at
least this one, was like, well,it says what it is.
Max Cohen (24:49):
Yeah. I think that's fair. I think you express your
company's values and what you'reall about to your employees when
you're onboarding them. So Itotally agree with you there.
Yeah.
Chad Hohn (24:59):
Think the way I think about it, you know, is it's like
that you're hiring somebody toassist you in writing, and they
could have all the bestpractices in the world, best
punctuation, everything, youknow, as far as being a typist
and helping you make content.But unless they know who you
(25:19):
are, they're going to writegeneric as as the dickens. Yeah.
Right. And that's the wholething we're trying to ideate
through.
So I guess my question here islike, you know, how do we set
that up? Right. So likepreviously, it seemed like it
used to be a thing where it youknow, like Max is talking about
the pain point used to be, well,hey. We're gonna show everybody
(25:42):
how to use the forms tool, howto make a website page, how to
add a theme, landing pages, howto campaign, how to connect all
this stuff, all the shenanigansinside of HubSpot was and then
the hard part was really gettingan outside agency if some of
your content was done by outsidepeople to use HubSpot so that
(26:03):
you had the attribution andinformation and data inside your
HubSpot portal. But now it'slike we're front loading that,
like Max said, into HubSpot sothat the hard part is getting
the data.
Now I'm wondering, and correctme if I'm wrong here, but like
it sounds like anybody'spractical first step to getting
(26:23):
HubSpot to help you with Expressis probably actually starting
outside of HubSpot and talkingto whatever your preferred AI
assistant is if you don'talready have some sort of voice
brand tone documentation, andgiving it everything that you
(26:46):
possibly can about who you are,like George was saying, give it
all of that information. Right?And once you've done that, talk
talk to it and say, hey, give memy, you know, first stab at who
I am, my brand, my my tone, allthat sort of stuff.
George B. Thomas (27:03):
Yes and no. And no. Liz, I'm going to
hopefully make you smile. Youhave two paths you can journey.
Can call somebody like Liz, whohas walked organizations and
organizations and organizationsthrough understanding what their
voice and tone is and how theyshould show up to the world and
(27:25):
levers they should pull and whenthey should pull them.
Like literally, this is one ofthe things that I did when I
started George B Thomas LLCbefore it even became Psychic
Strategist. I was like, Hey,Liz, I wanna roadmap to how I'm
supposed to show up or how Iwanna show up from a voice and
tone standpoint. And weliterally went through like
this, like two, three sessionworkshop, which I got a
(27:46):
presentation deck. And then Ifeel like, again, I was cheating
because I used that presentationdeck to like, super vent my chat
GPT assistant of like, look atthis presentation deck and know
everything that you should knowabout me now.
Liz Moorehead (28:00):
Oh yeah. I've even restructured how I build
those presentations now so theycan be input for those things.
George B. Thomas (28:05):
Yeah. Now, Chad, path number two, If you've
been using Perplexity, ChatGPT,Claude for a while, you could
literally say, Hey, we've beenworking together for a while. If
you had to describe my voice andtone. So yes, there is a step
one where it's like working witha human could be an internal
(28:26):
human, could be somebody likeLiz, or working with your LLM of
choice for the last six months,one year, two years, however
long you've been doing it, andtrying to get at least a
starting point because then whatyou can do, and while I'm
showing my screen is you cantake that information and you
can start to, and I'm, this islike, I've already gone through
(28:47):
a couple of the setup pieces andI don't want to remove this to
like show the setup process, butmaybe in another episode or like
we'll find a tutorial orsomething. But at the end of the
day, want to be able to haveyour brand voice and you want to
be able to have things likepersonality and default tone.
And you've got advanced settingswhere you can say these things.
(29:08):
Here's what I'm going to kickback to. At the beginning of
this, I literally said there wasa step two, which is like make a
one pager, a voice card, if youwill. Basically, you're looking
at HubSpot's version of a voicecard, but I want you to think
about this as you get tacticalwith it. And you gotta be clear
(29:29):
and you gotta be concrete withthis, but like who we are in
three lines and what we standagainst.
The tone dial or like leversfrom like one to 10, warm,
playful, direct, short. Usethese phrases, don't use these
phrases. Use these words,
Max Cohen (29:49):
don't
George B. Thomas (29:49):
use these words. Like, my assistant
anywhere I go knows to use theword ready for it? Ready for it?
Intro (29:56):
How else?
George B. Thomas (29:57):
Not people. Right? You will you'll be hard
pressed to find, unless Ipurposely do it, the word
people, because it'll usehumans. It also knows to use
flourish instead of thrive.Like, so there, so you can
literally, it also knows to say,by the way, if you go talk to my
clone, says automagical, whichis a made up freaking word.
Right? And so then, like someproof rules, like, you can
(30:22):
literally be like, we need toproof this. We need to see the,
you know, where did you get thisinformation? Make sure you don't
lie to me. Don't hallucinate.
Like, Make sure you alwaysinclude this. Always exclude
that. And so you can create acard of these rules and these
(30:42):
ideas, and then you canliterally take it to any LLM
and, of course, HubSpot. Thiswould help you with getting to
this point in HubSpot where nowyou can literally have this
thing. And Chad, I wanna circleback on one thing that you said.
Hey, the fight used to begetting the outward agency to
actually use HubSpot so we canmeasure. Ladies and gentlemen,
(31:05):
we're at the level now where wewant agencies to actually start
the creation process inside ofHubSpot because it'll be using
our voice.
Chad Hohn (31:14):
Exactly.
George B. Thomas (31:14):
It'll be using our tone. And so one of the
things that we used to say, andby the way, I was right
alongside with Marcus when weused to say it, was like, it's
hard for somebody to sound likeyou. If they're in an agency,
your thought leader should be inyour organization. Still agree
the thought leader should be inyour organization and they
(31:35):
should probably have theprecipice of the beginning ideas
or verticals that would helpcreate the content, but it is
really easy once this is set upfor anybody to sound like you,
as long as they're creating thecontent starting in HubSpot. For
most people.
Chad Hohn (31:51):
Now I have the brand voice or the brand identity page
pulled up in the Hub Herosandbox, and it's completely
unset up. Do you want me to pullthat up so we can take a peek at
it real quick?
George B. Thomas (32:01):
If you want to.
Chad Hohn (32:03):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that could be helpful. Let
me snag that.
George B. Thomas (32:06):
Because it'll it'll help the
Chad Hohn (32:08):
When you wanna see it
George B. Thomas (32:09):
Yes. Yeah. People it'll help people
understand. Here's why we'resaying, gather these things.
Here's why we're saying,understand these things.
Here's why we're saying, startwith the, Oh, how do we, let me
see if I can, there we go.Change that layout. There we go.
Okay.
Chad Hohn (32:24):
Yeah. So this is content and brand. And I think I
noticed a little message in yoursettings, George, that said
content brand is where this isgoing now.
George B. Thomas (32:33):
Yep.
Chad Hohn (32:34):
But it won't let you do some of the stuff until you
get your booty over here andstart putting in your brand
voice. Now you can upload files.And if they're trying to give
you the light version of whatwe're talking about by being
able to paste in a writingsample of at least 500 words so
(32:58):
that you can help it figure outwhat your kind of tone is.
Right? You can paste in that andthen, otherwise you can upload
files.
Right? Then you go through
George B. Thomas (33:10):
the setup. Think about that. Right? I just
said create a one page voicecard. Imagine the difference of
uploading a one page voice cardor like I mentioned Liz's
PowerPoint presentation as adocument.
Imagine uploading that as yourstarting line versus like trying
to like type, you know, two,three hundred, 400 words. It's
gonna be a huge difference.
Chad Hohn (33:31):
Yeah. And there's a little bit of like, who moved my
cheese going on here orwhatever, because like, they're
trying to bring together, youknow, your brand kit, your
overview, your AI data sourcesfor company profile, ICP, and
products and services and howyou would like any of your AI to
(33:53):
do marketing goals along withadditional context where you can
kind of tag your industries, tagcustomer sentiment, tag a brand
associations for both positiveand negative. All this stuff
helps it have a little bit moredata points to be able to help
put the content in a place thatneeds less refining where you
(34:16):
can, you know, it's already kindof going down the right
direction. Like tactically, thisis a great way to start going
down that AI assisted expressfunctionality.
George B. Thomas (34:28):
And I would say AI assisted human powered
level of expression. Okay. Iwanna shut up because I wanna
know where Liz and Max's brainsare.
Max Cohen (34:37):
You know, I think try I don't wanna say I'm fully on
board yet, but I feel like I'mfeeling a lot better about this
whole express thing. And I canget over the fact that I don't
like the name. And I think thename is a bit more woo woo
because I like to be veryintentional with the names of
things just because, like, I'dhate to have to explain this to
someone saying, like, hey, thisexpress stage, yeah, you're
(35:00):
gonna express yourself as acompany, but what you're really
doing is you're onboarding thisnew employee that you have
that's this AI thing. Right? Youknow, it because, again, it's
just like I'd like to think ofthe stages as something is like,
what are you literally doing?
Right? Just because I think, youknow, fancier names for stuff
just confuse things for people,which is why I love to track
(35:23):
engaged delight so much, eventhough engages probably breaks
that rule a little bit.
Chad Hohn (35:28):
Well, once once the onboarding is done, though, then
what does Express mean to you?Because it's a one time thing
with the onboarding. Right?
Max Cohen (35:36):
Yeah. Once that stuff do you think about it? Express
yourself to the AI, like, thenit, you know, it it makes sound
like you're expressing who youare so that AI understands, you
know, what to do. Right?
George B. Thomas (35:48):
AI. You're see, we're getting stuck in the
fact that we're training AI tohelp us express ourself. We're
we're training AI to help AIassist us in expressing the
organization. Because reallyexpress is the foundation of
like, you need to know how youwanna show up for who you wanna
show up, because then when yougo to create the content and get
into like amplify, you're notamplifying a turd. So, like
Chad Hohn (36:13):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (36:13):
See, but, yeah, see, the thing is is, like, when was
the like, I don't think I'veever bought something being,
like, wow, they really showedup. Like, I bought something
because they
George B. Thomas (36:25):
Well, you created something that
Max Cohen (36:26):
convinced me that well, no. No. I created I bought
something because they createdgood enough content to convince
me that I needed the thing rightafter I was searching for it.
Liz Moorehead (36:36):
I'm gonna like, it's not I'm
Max Cohen (36:38):
not sitting there like they express themselves to
me. It's just not like Well, no.
George B. Thomas (36:41):
Of course not. But they did or she wouldn't
buy. Liz, I I put put put putput your thoughts
Liz Moorehead (36:48):
throw this out there. Max, you and I could have
a much more in-depthconversation about this, but as
someone were like, this is mydomain, you will never look at
it and go like, wow. They musthave sat down and really had a
great voice and tone workshop,but you will be damn sure to
notice when they don't have it.It is the thing you think
Max Cohen (37:07):
you
Liz Moorehead (37:07):
don't need until you don't have it. And that's
how you end up with websitepages where it sounds like four
different people wrote them,Where there's zero alignment
amongst your team members aboutwho you serve, how you serve
them, and how you say it. Like,it I think we have this
assumption that great contentjust appears. There is no
(37:32):
wizard. Thank God I would be outof a job.
Right? But here's the thing.This type of stuff, it's like an
iceberg. Right? The power of aniceberg is what is below the
surface.
You only see the tip when itcomes content. You only see
everything that is above thesurface, but all of the effort
(37:52):
was below the surface. It isintentional choices. We are
going to say this, are not tosay that. We are for these
people.
We are not for these people.This is how they need us to show
up. The good news is ishonestly, if you were sitting
there going, man, they expressthemselves so great, then I
screwed up. It's supposed toappear effortless. It's supposed
(38:14):
to appear organic.
So the fact that you can't seethe matrix behind the content,
that's kind of on purpose.
George B. Thomas (38:23):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's Really? It's it's so
good.
Like, it's funny because Liz cancreate let me give you a real
world example, and I know we'rerunning out of time. I have
written the first three chaptersof the Beyond Your Default book,
and I did it in a real crazyway. And these first three
(38:43):
chapters, it's like the tip ofthe iceberg because you can't
see all the instructions. Youcan't see all of the memory. You
can't see all of the base oflike every Beyond Your Default
episode going into a project orthe custom instructions, or you
can't see the process of memaking my assistant ask me
(39:05):
questions along the way to dragcontext of like thirty years ago
in my life onto the page.
I've had people who have read itand literally said, Listen, I
cried after chapter one. It waswritten by AI typist. It was
created by human George BThomas. Nobody will ever look at
(39:27):
that and go, oh, he's doing agreat job at using AI to type
this to express himself. Butthey had an emotional moment.
Anyway.
Liz Moorehead (39:39):
I love that. Alright. I'm gonna bring this
conversation to a close today.George, I'm actually gonna ask
you a specific question asopposed to a one thing question.
George B. Thomas (39:49):
Wow.
Liz Moorehead (39:50):
I would like to know, for folks who may have
listened to us talk aboutExpress for the past two
episodes, can't they skip thisstep before going to Taylor?
George B. Thomas (40:02):
Oh, yeah, because you'll literally be
creating a turd. You willconfuse your audience. You won't
know the road that you're tryingto travel and be able to help
them travel down the road. Likethis this is so vitally
important to like how you showup as a By the way, there has to
(40:25):
be some level of self awareness.There has like, listen, the only
reason I can do what I can do inthe way that I do it is because
I've put the work in.
I've and what I mean by that isI've sat in my own air quotes,
personal therapy chair for ayear and a half with Liz on the
(40:48):
Beyond Your Default podcast tobe able to extract, like at
found fundamental levels,beliefs, core values, mindsets.
I did a workshop with Liz tolike understand voice and tone.
I've taken the time tounderstand who I am, what I And
so like you as an organization,you as the individuals who lead
(41:11):
the charge for the Taylor andAmplify and Evolve moving
forward, there's gotta be a highlevel of self awareness to the
organization and the people andthe emotions. And and if you
don't take to do that here inExpress, nothing else moves
forward in the way that itshould. Yes, Max.
Max Cohen (41:33):
I think I think also the thing that I would add to
that, because I'm I'm reallystarting to understand this
Express thing is, like, this issort of like putting a customer
success person, you know, dayone in the job without any
training. They're not gonna knowanything about your company.
They're not gonna know what youthey do. They're not gonna know
what you stand for. They're notgonna know how we talk to
customers.
They're not gonna go
Chad Hohn (41:50):
They're not
Max Cohen (41:50):
even gonna know how to answer questions. They're not
gonna understand any nuance.None of that stuff. Right? So,
like, if you had an employee,would you make them customer
facing with zero trainingwhatsoever?
Probably not. No. Right? Thesame thing goes for a content
writer or a marketer or this,that.
Chad Hohn (42:03):
Yep. Yeah. Exactly.
Liz Moorehead (42:05):
Bingo.
George B. Thomas (42:06):
It's and and now human or should I say Human.
Reached out to me before, Iwould expect you to reach out to
me and say, Max has officiallymade me happy. Okay, hub heroes.
We've reached the end of anotherepisode. Will Lord Lack continue
(42:30):
to loom over the community orwill we be able to defeat him in
the next episode of the hubheroes podcast?
Make sure you tune in and findout in the next episode. Make
sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest
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part of the league of heroes,you'll get the show notes right
(42:52):
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Leave a review if you like whatyou're listening to and use the
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Until next time, when we meetand combine our forces, remember
(43:15):
to be a happy, helpful, humblehuman, and of course, always be
looking for a way to besomeone's hero.
Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are
you plagued by siloedapartments? Are your lackluster
growth strategies demolishingyour chances for success? Are
you held captive by the evilmenace, lord lack, lack of time,
lack of strategy, and lack ofthe most important and powerful
(00:22):
tool in your superhero toolbelt? Knowledge.
Never fear hub heroes. Get readyto don your cape and mask, move
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Tune in each week to join theleague of extraordinary inbound
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(00:47):
it's time to unite and activateyour powers.
Max Cohen (00:53):
George, I gotta I gotta ask you. Is the person who
reached out to you Lord Loop?
George B. Thomas (00:58):
No. It's not Lord Loop. It wasn't even Oh my
god. It wasn't even Lord Lact.
Max Cohen (01:02):
Where's the sad trombone? Where is that?
George B. Thomas (01:05):
The the sad trombone. Break them, John. Hang
on. Hang on.
Max Cohen (01:10):
Yeah. Here we go, guys.
Liz Moorehead (01:13):
How's everybody doing this morning?
Max Cohen (01:15):
Oh, just amazing. Dude, how are you, Liz?
Wonderful. Most importantquestion.
Liz Moorehead (01:19):
I am so glad you asked. Yeah. It was my birthday
yesterday. And next to me, Ihave the coolest birthday gift I
have ever received in
Max Cohen (01:29):
my life. Can I show you guys?
Chad Hohn (01:30):
Yep. Show it. What is it?
Liz Moorehead (01:32):
A Val Schumer autographed picture of him
playing Jim Morrison. And myfavorite part is the way he
signed it. He just put Jim inquotes. Wow.
George B. Thomas (01:42):
Nice. Wow. That is awesome. I'm I'm without
words.
Liz Moorehead (01:48):
I know. It's for it's a gift for a niche audience
and the niche
Max Cohen (01:52):
is the size of just me. But I'm very happy.
George B. Thomas (01:55):
That's cool. That's cool, though. That by the
way, I know I texted you, butbut since we're on the show,
happy birthday, Liz.
Max Cohen (02:02):
Happy can we sing happy birthday,
Chad Hohn (02:04):
though? Happy birthday.
George B. Thomas (02:24):
Guys, we should start up with the boy
band. Five. We we should startup with that. That was dope.
Now, Liz I think
Chad Hohn (02:29):
that thirty five millisecond delay was killing
it. We were in sync, dude. Yes.Sync. We
Max Cohen (02:34):
were in sync, bro. To say is to the women out there
listening, ladies, step back.They're all mine.
Liz Moorehead (02:39):
Yes. Line.
Max Cohen (02:40):
Correct.
Liz Moorehead (02:41):
Calm down. But let's move on to what I know is
going to be Max's favorite topictoday. But are you ready?
Max Cohen (02:48):
Get an angry email.
Liz Moorehead (02:49):
Loop Marketing Express part two, Electric
Boogaloo. We are back. Right? Soif you missed last week's
episode, I'm gonna have to tellyou to go and listen to that one
first because it's just
Max Cohen (03:05):
have to go get it.
Liz Moorehead (03:06):
There's an irony to all of this, guys, because
express is all about clarity,expression, voice and tone, and
we only got through twoquestions of our outline last
week. Today we are going to begetting into the hows, the
tactics, the tools, the HubSpottechnology of how you actually
(03:27):
employ Express using HubSpottools. But I've gotta be honest.
Okay?
Max Cohen (03:33):
Be honest.
Liz Moorehead (03:33):
I'm just gonna say the conversations we've been
having over the past couple ofweeks about loop marketing have
been fascinating, like Jim airquotes. Fascinating. I mentioned
this in the last episode butthis is the first time I've seen
a product rollout from HubSpotwhere we are struggling to move
through the what and the whybehind it. So I want to start
(03:57):
off today's conversation, andthis is where we're gonna get
all of our feelings out beforewe get into the actual tactics.
Gentlemen, how are you allfeeling about last week's
episode?
Max Cohen (04:07):
Oh, man. I feel like I needed to get that out for a
while. Felt It felt cathartic.And, you know, I I feel excited
to figure it out.
Because, like, what I've learned is over the years,
especially with
HubSpot, I tend to not learn something until I get
(04:29):
super frustrated with notunderstanding it. And I'm
looking at this as the nextthing I'd like to overcome in
that regard.
Liz Moorehead (04:36):
Interesting. So glad we're a part of your
process.
George B. Thomas (04:39):
Yeah. No. It's my brain immediately goes to is
that where inbound physics camefrom? Because Max, at one point,
you were like, I needed a
Max Cohen (04:48):
deep yeah.
George B. Thomas (04:49):
You know? So
Max Cohen (04:49):
Inbound physics was my my way of understanding it in
a very simple manner that workswith the way my mental model is
set up.
George B. Thomas (04:59):
Yeah. And if you're if you're listening to
this or watching this and you'relike, inbound physics, just just
Google Hub Heroes podcast,inbound physics. There's there's
an episode for that. Chad, I'mgonna wait. I want you to go
first as far as how you'reyou're feeling about last week's
episode.
Chad Hohn (05:13):
Yeah. I think this this week, we have a real
opportunity, I think, to unpacksome of some of the specifics
in, like, how HubSpot intendsyou to do this. Right? And I
think that's gonna help bring alot of clarity. It's not the
only place that you can do thiskind of stuff, but they've,
like, tailored it to making thisa playbook for how to really
(05:36):
succeed with HubSpot.
And in the context of HubSpot,this can make a lot of sense, I
think. So I think that we canreally pull a lot of things
together.
George B. Thomas (05:44):
Yeah. So, Liz, how did you feel about last
week's episode?
Liz Moorehead (05:49):
I'll be honest. Pretty much what I said during
last week's episode is that Ihave seen heated debates. I have
seen friction and I have seendisagreements about the funnel
versus the flywheel aboutshifting dynamics and how the
inbound methodology is deployed.I think this friction, it's not
(06:10):
that we're seeing with theseconversations, it's not fatal by
any means, but it is telling.Because one of the things that
we talked about last week isthat this isn't about humans
informing strategy, this is aproduct informed strategy move.
And I don't necessarily feelbadly about it, but again, it
(06:31):
brings me back to what problemwere we really trying to solve
with loop marketing. Yeah.Because it's presented as a
methodology, like this humanfirst framework, but it's about
getting people to use theproduct.
George B. Thomas (06:44):
Well, they call it
Liz Moorehead (06:45):
a inherently yeah. It's not inherently bad.
George B. Thomas (06:49):
Yeah.
Liz Moorehead (06:49):
But, and I'm not saying it's, you know, but
that's kind of how I feel aboutit is that this rollout has felt
weirder. Yeah. And it reminds meof what happened when the
Content Hub rolled out where Isaid they really need to do a
better job of messaging withtheir partners or their
messaging in general becausethere's just a lot of confusion.
(07:12):
Like I had a couple folks reachout, reach out to me on LinkedIn
after listening to last week'sepisode. No one said that you
made them sad, Max.
You'd be very happy about that.But they did say, Wow, thank
you. I thought I was goingcrazy.
George B. Thomas (07:26):
Yeah. See, and see, this is where I'll jump in
because I loved last week'sepisode. Love last week's
episode because I feel like wereached a place where a lot of
humans were or are and areafraid to say that they are
actually at. Right? Or they'rejust not saying it out loud or
they don't have the place to sayit out loud.
(07:49):
And again, this is why I duginto like, Guys, I want to talk
about this at a deeper level.Everybody's trying to do it in
one video. Everybody's trying todo a broad brushstroke. And
there's so much granularity tothe conversation that needs to
happen. And what I love aboutlast week is it is a
foundational piece to get usinto what we're going to dive in
(08:12):
today and what we're going todive in in the future on some of
these other stages or places ofwhat is this playbook that is
loop marketing.
We're going to be able to do ourbest to try to figure it out, to
try to simplify it, to try tohelp others at least take some
(08:33):
tactical real world. Here's whatthat means. And maybe even as
Liz, you alluded last week, whatit has meant for years before
somebody tried to put adifferent word on it. Like, so,
so I'm excited and, and I lovedlast week.
Liz Moorehead (08:50):
Well, let's find new ways to love this week. It's
a new week. It's a new day.Yeah. It's a new adventure.
So George, I want you you arenow in the position of power of
keeping the cats herded becauseI want us to get to the tools
and tactics, not the what andthe why, but the how. Yeah. So I
wanna turn to you and ask you,how do you actually teach your
(09:13):
brand's voice to AI tools inHubSpot so they don't spit out
that generic content, right? Arethe practical tools or processes
that you've seen work foryourself or with clients?
George B. Thomas (09:24):
Yeah. So a couple of things I'm going to
try to do this in steps, and Imay even ask if there's any
feedback or thoughts during thesteps. But some things that I
want to make sure we talk aboutis one, gathering a small
collection of your best workthat sounds like you a a voice,
(09:47):
a pile of of content, if youwill. Like, this might be 12 to
20 pieces that are the most youhistorically that you've
created. So we'll we'll comewe'll swing back to this.
So that's a gather gather youdid the digital you. There's
also this idea that I want totalk about of making like a one
(10:07):
pager. Think of this as likeyour ultimate voice card,
something that you could hand toa human or something you could
hand to any LLM. And immediatelythey would understand the
context of who you are, whereyou work, the way that you want
to, we'll circle back around onthat as well because there's
some specificities. I also wannathink that we could talk about
(10:32):
how there's this golden set.
Like after you've kind of usedAI for a while and you get a
really good output or outputs,capturing those and using those
as examples. You could use theword examples, but I want them
to be like this. The other thingthat has helped for us as an
(10:54):
organization while we've gonethrough this whole process, and
again, HubSpot mentioned hybridteams. Creating a prompt stack
or a a prompt library that youcan hand to other humans in your
organization when you buildsomething that you know works
(11:14):
based on the foundation thatyou've put into place. Because,
again, a big piece of this iskeeping humans in the loop.
Okay. Alright. Yeah, I did it. Idid it. So let's let's circle
back around to step like kind ofstep one or or whatever.
(11:35):
Yeah, let's call it step one.Gathering the content. And now
here's the thing. HubSpot givesyou the ability when you go to
set up your brand voice toupload information or to connect
to information that you may havealready been creating in
HubSpot. So, want everybody tokind of think about how their
(11:58):
mind might go.
It's twelve, fifteen, 20 piecesof content that feels most like
you. By the way, we're talkingin the context of Hubs, but you
could totally use this withPerplexity or ChatGPT or any
other LLM if you wanted to. Sojust know that this is rinsible
and reusable outside of Breezeand HubSpot's voice and tone
(12:21):
tools and things like that. ButI want you to think, I've
watched people go through thisprocess and usually they
immediately go to blogs and onlyblogs. And what I would suggest
is that you think about emails,you think about blog articles,
you think about pages.
Even think about unstructureddata. And what I mean by that is
like, think about transcripts ofcalls that maybe you've had or
(12:43):
interviews that you've done. Andthis could be internal
interviews, like a mix ofdifferent content types is good
to kind of get that voice pileor the things that you want to
use. I would even suggest, andLiz, when we went through the
original workshop, you keptasking me questions like, well,
(13:05):
what are the what are the humansthat you're helping saying?
Like, what?
And so I would even suggest liketen, twenty, thirty, fifty,
depending on how many you havereal customer quotes, reviews,
calls, support ticket, whatever.We want their words, not just
(13:26):
our words. Here's the fun partis when we start to talk about
voice and tone, we immediatelygo to like, well, how do we want
to sound? How do we want tocommunicate with people who want
to hear from us? And so theirwords in there.
Liz Moorehead (13:40):
It's also how do they need you to
George B. Thomas (13:43):
How do they need us to show up? So that's
like gather this informationthat has been historically just
kind of floating around outthere so they can use it to
start to build. I'll shut upthere and Liz, I know you
probably have thoughts, but Maxand Chad, like let's just let's
use that to start theconversation.
Liz Moorehead (14:02):
You know, is one of my personal favorite topics.
One of the things I alwaysreally encourage people to do,
and George, you really dialedinto this nicely, you have to
remember the tools in HubSpotare actually quite simple and
intuitive to use. The challengeand where they become
ineffective is how dialed
Intro (14:28):
effective the choices you are making about your voice,
right? So for example, right,like you can have HubSpot, but
if your content strategy sucks,there's nothing wrong with the
platform, your content strategysucks. If you have a bad voice
and tone strategy ordocumentation,
Liz Moorehead (14:45):
dialed HubSpot cannot help you. It's not going
to work. The biggest piece ofadvice I would say is you have
to look at the instructions youdevelop for your voice and tone.
This is not a vanity exercise.This is not about your
aspirations, hopes, goals,dreams.
(15:06):
It's about the humans you serve,what they are feeling, and how
you need to show up. Like Iremember I used to hear from
folks, they would say, well, theway we develop our voice and
tone is we basically picked,like, what celebrity we wanted
to sound like. Right? K. If yourpeople need empathy, sounding
like Pitbull isn't going to help
George B. Thomas (15:27):
you.
Max Cohen (15:28):
Well, hold on.
Liz Moorehead (15:30):
I do love Pitbull. Do love Pitbull,
though.
Max Cohen (15:34):
Max, imagine if every single one of your blog posts
just started with Mr. Worldwide.Wide.
George B. Thomas (15:38):
That's funny.
Max Cohen (15:42):
I'd read that. I'd I might actually read if that was
the case. Right.
Chad Hohn (15:46):
Yeah. There's no snare in my headphones.
George B. Thomas (15:50):
That's funny.
Max Cohen (15:53):
You know what? Like, it kinda like feels to me as
like the I remember alwaysreaching this this point
onboarding Marketing Hubcustomers that in my head, I was
like, alright, now comes thehard work. Right? And it would
generally be after you geteverything set up and, like,
your ripe your your HubSpotaccount is ripe for just, like,
(16:16):
starting to pump out and createcontent and everything. And, you
know, the the burden thenshifted to the marketers or
copywriters or whoever, youknow, whatever sort of resource
you had to say, okay.
Now we have to make content.
George B. Thomas (16:32):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (16:33):
Right? And what it almost kind of sounds to me in
this sort of stage of express,right, this first one is that a
lot of that hard work has kindof shifted way, way, way more
into the beginning. So it'sless, oh, it's difficult for me
to write blog posts. Right? Andthat was like the human output
(16:55):
that was needed inside ofHubSpot.
Right? Well, now that that partof the equation is handled to
different, you know, varyingextents. I think it's probably a
spectrum of how much people,like, rely on
George B. Thomas (17:08):
Right.
Max Cohen (17:09):
AI to put fingers to keyboard. Right? But it sounds
like there's still this onething that AI is not gonna help
you do, and it's this.
Chad Hohn (17:19):
It's It's set up the AI.
Max Cohen (17:21):
It's yeah. Like, give it what it needs to go on.
Right? And like that to me stillis, I think, the fundamentally
hard thing for people to getover. It's like, oh, yeah, you
got this, you know, you got thisthese wonderful tools that will
actually create and generatecontent for you so you don't
have to spend time writing andand and doing all this kind of
(17:43):
stuff, or at least makes iteasier for you.
But before that even happens,you need to actually still do a
whole bunch of, like, legwork,which includes a lot of
thinking, a lot of writing, alot of, you know, human led
creation of stuff that this AIis actually gonna go off of.
(18:04):
Right? So, like and and what I'mwondering, right, as, you know,
strategists that work at partneragencies or customer success
specialists at HubSpot orinbound consultants or like any
of the people that are stilllike helping customers with
strategy, right, this is goingto be the new blog post hurdle.
(18:28):
Right? Where it's like, oh,yeah, we've got these wonderful
AI tools that can like write allthis stuff for you and like help
you create content better, butyou still are gonna hit this
wall where there's this, like,big intellectual intellectual
exercise you need to do at thebeginning for any of this to
work properly.
Right? And before we weretalking about, oh, the hard part
(18:49):
was like or I mean, depending onwho you are. The hard part was
getting your blog set up,getting your domains all hooked
up and, like, all that kind ofstuff. And that was like block.
The barrier to get into this.
Right? But now the barrier forthe AI to go do its job is still
a whole bunch of intellectualwork that you have to do in
order for it to do it in anymeaningful way.
George B. Thomas (19:10):
And can I dive into that for a second? Because
I think there's something thathappened to me, like, two years
ago that was a fundamentalmindset or shift that allowed me
to focus on and I agree, Max.This is the new hard thing. And
and let me explain why. So,like, when I got my fingers on
(19:32):
AI, and Liz was there at thebeginning of this, and I was
like, I'm testing this, and I'mtrying this, and let's hone
this, and let's tweak this,there was a mindset for me that
I didn't need AI to write blogs.
I wasn't looking for a airquotes writer. I, when I saw AI
in the output, I said, oh mygod, this is the fastest typist
(19:55):
on the planet. And my weaknesswas typing. I should have paid
attention in typing class, Ididn't. I'm a two to three
finger guy at best and so I waslike, okay, so if that's the
fastest typist, how do I makethis typist me?
And so what I started to do wasgive it all of the things that I
(20:16):
could give it of like, here'show I feel about this and that
in the And like, and so when Italk about like surface level of
like 12 to 20 pieces that areyou, there's a layer even before
that where like my AI assistant,I was able to go through a
process where I was able to giveit my mindset, my beliefs, my
(20:37):
core values. Now for you as anorganization, it would be your
mission. It would be yourvision. It would be your
company's core values, yourculture code. Like there's so
much stuff that we have layingaround that if we make sure it's
exactly what we wanted it to bein the first place, that we can
create this brain.
(20:58):
And again, you're talking to adude who literally cloned
himself with delphi.ai and wentthrough this whole process. And
there are some similarities towhat you as a human or what you
as an organization should bedoing cloning yourself to
thinking about what you'rebuilding from a brand voice tone
standpoint in HubSpot. And so assoon as I realized I could make
(21:21):
this typist, type basically whatI wanted to say, or close to
what I wanted to say, and then Icould iterate that and say, make
it more heartfelt, make it moreemotional, make it more in your
face. I don't like this, but canwe say that this way? Now retype
the whole thing.
Like as soon as that was themindset and I was literally
(21:43):
creating a version of SidekickStrategy, a version of George B
Thomas that could just typereally fast, It just made sense
for what I should get into themachine, how I should train the
machine.
Max Cohen (21:57):
Yeah. We use the word train. We use the word
assistant. We use the wordagent.
George B. Thomas (22:04):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (22:05):
These are all words that describe people. Okay?
George B. Thomas (22:09):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (22:10):
And I think there's this very, like, walking on
eggshells type of mentality thata lot of the folks that are
really pushing a lot of this AIstuff or this tightrope that
they're walking saying like,this is not a person that is
replacing anybody.
George B. Thomas (22:29):
Oh, is Max going there?
Max Cohen (22:30):
Right? Well, here I don't think it has to be a
person that replaces anybody.Yeah. Yeah. Right?
But I think this strategy startsto make a lot more sense when
you think of it as if you'reonboarding a new team member.
George B. Thomas (22:46):
Without his
Max Cohen (22:47):
doubt. When I hear all of this express stuff like,
again and I like, for me, like,just again, the word express,
like, again, don't know why Ikeep playing express yourself
like Doctor. Dre every singletime I hear it. Express
yourself. Right?
Yep. To me, express makes a lotmore sense when I replace it
(23:08):
with the word onboard. Yes.Because here's the thing, the AI
is something that kind of existsjust like a new employee would.
Right?
And until you train it on likeuntil you onboard them onto your
company, right? Yeah. And teachthem what your company's all
about. Yeah. How to do theirjob, your company's values, your
(23:29):
company's voice, how to talk tocustomers, all these things.
Right? The word onboard makes alot more sense to me than
express.
George B. Thomas (23:37):
Well, here's, I don't disagree with you. And
here's the thing I wanna back up50,000 foot because while we're
talking about AI today, HubSpotwas talking about hybrid teams,
which means it is kind of likeonboarding humans and onboarding
Yeah. Hybrid teammate. Yeah. Tobe able to work together.
Now, Liz, you just made a, like,a funja funja face. Need to know
(23:58):
what's going on in your brain.Like, talk to me.
Liz Moorehead (24:02):
Okay. It's like a semantic argument that I'm
hearing here. But and I don'tI'm so nervous to say this
because we have not done a greatjob of staying on track with
these conversations.
Max Cohen (24:15):
Are we talking about Express?
Liz Moorehead (24:17):
Yeah, Express. Express to me is exactly what it
says. Like, I actually thinkit's beautifully named. It's
about how you express yourself.It is your voice.
Max Cohen (24:26):
It is your tone.
Liz Moorehead (24:26):
It is the fully realized expression of your
brand. What I will say that I dolike about what you said, Max,
is that the function thatExpress completes is that
onboarding aspect.
Max Cohen (24:40):
Mhmm.
Liz Moorehead (24:40):
So I could see it there. I just I do like the
name. I have a lot of issueswith Loop Marketing, but at
least this one, was like, well,it says what it is.
Max Cohen (24:49):
Yeah. I think that's fair. I think you express your
company's values and what you'reall about to your employees when
you're onboarding them. So Itotally agree with you there.
Yeah.
Chad Hohn (24:59):
Think the way I think about it, you know, is it's like
that you're hiring somebody toassist you in writing, and they
could have all the bestpractices in the world, best
punctuation, everything, youknow, as far as being a typist
and helping you make content.But unless they know who you
(25:19):
are, they're going to writegeneric as as the dickens. Yeah.
Right. And that's the wholething we're trying to ideate
through.
So I guess my question here islike, you know, how do we set
that up? Right. So likepreviously, it seemed like it
used to be a thing where it youknow, like Max is talking about
the pain point used to be, well,hey. We're gonna show everybody
(25:42):
how to use the forms tool, howto make a website page, how to
add a theme, landing pages, howto campaign, how to connect all
this stuff, all the shenanigansinside of HubSpot was and then
the hard part was really gettingan outside agency if some of
your content was done by outsidepeople to use HubSpot so that
(26:03):
you had the attribution andinformation and data inside your
HubSpot portal. But now it'slike we're front loading that,
like Max said, into HubSpot sothat the hard part is getting
the data.
Now I'm wondering, and correctme if I'm wrong here, but like
it sounds like anybody'spractical first step to getting
(26:23):
HubSpot to help you with Expressis probably actually starting
outside of HubSpot and talkingto whatever your preferred AI
assistant is if you don'talready have some sort of voice
brand tone documentation, andgiving it everything that you
(26:46):
possibly can about who you are,like George was saying, give it
all of that information. Right?And once you've done that, talk
talk to it and say, hey, give memy, you know, first stab at who
I am, my brand, my my tone, allthat sort of stuff.
George B. Thomas (27:03):
Yes and no. And no. Liz, I'm going to
hopefully make you smile. Youhave two paths you can journey.
Can call somebody like Liz, whohas walked organizations and
organizations and organizationsthrough understanding what their
voice and tone is and how theyshould show up to the world and
(27:25):
levers they should pull and whenthey should pull them.
Like literally, this is one ofthe things that I did when I
started George B Thomas LLCbefore it even became Psychic
Strategist. I was like, Hey,Liz, I wanna roadmap to how I'm
supposed to show up or how Iwanna show up from a voice and
tone standpoint. And weliterally went through like
this, like two, three sessionworkshop, which I got a
(27:46):
presentation deck. And then Ifeel like, again, I was cheating
because I used that presentationdeck to like, super vent my chat
GPT assistant of like, look atthis presentation deck and know
everything that you should knowabout me now.
Liz Moorehead (28:00):
Oh yeah. I've even restructured how I build
those presentations now so theycan be input for those things.
George B. Thomas (28:05):
Yeah. Now, Chad, path number two, If you've
been using Perplexity, ChatGPT,Claude for a while, you could
literally say, Hey, we've beenworking together for a while. If
you had to describe my voice andtone. So yes, there is a step
one where it's like working witha human could be an internal
(28:26):
human, could be somebody likeLiz, or working with your LLM of
choice for the last six months,one year, two years, however
long you've been doing it, andtrying to get at least a
starting point because then whatyou can do, and while I'm
showing my screen is you cantake that information and you
can start to, and I'm, this islike, I've already gone through
(28:47):
a couple of the setup pieces andI don't want to remove this to
like show the setup process, butmaybe in another episode or like
we'll find a tutorial orsomething. But at the end of the
day, want to be able to haveyour brand voice and you want to
be able to have things likepersonality and default tone.
And you've got advanced settingswhere you can say these things.
(29:08):
Here's what I'm going to kickback to. At the beginning of
this, I literally said there wasa step two, which is like make a
one pager, a voice card, if youwill. Basically, you're looking
at HubSpot's version of a voicecard, but I want you to think
about this as you get tacticalwith it. And you gotta be clear
(29:29):
and you gotta be concrete withthis, but like who we are in
three lines and what we standagainst.
The tone dial or like leversfrom like one to 10, warm,
playful, direct, short. Usethese phrases, don't use these
phrases. Use these words,
Max Cohen (29:49):
don't
George B. Thomas (29:49):
use these words. Like, my assistant
anywhere I go knows to use theword ready for it? Ready for it?
Intro (29:56):
How else?
George B. Thomas (29:57):
Not people. Right? You will you'll be hard
pressed to find, unless Ipurposely do it, the word
people, because it'll usehumans. It also knows to use
flourish instead of thrive.Like, so there, so you can
literally, it also knows to say,by the way, if you go talk to my
clone, says automagical, whichis a made up freaking word.
Right? And so then, like someproof rules, like, you can
(30:22):
literally be like, we need toproof this. We need to see the,
you know, where did you get thisinformation? Make sure you don't
lie to me. Don't hallucinate.
Like, Make sure you alwaysinclude this. Always exclude
that. And so you can create acard of these rules and these
(30:42):
ideas, and then you canliterally take it to any LLM
and, of course, HubSpot. Thiswould help you with getting to
this point in HubSpot where nowyou can literally have this
thing. And Chad, I wanna circleback on one thing that you said.
Hey, the fight used to begetting the outward agency to
actually use HubSpot so we canmeasure. Ladies and gentlemen,
(31:05):
we're at the level now where wewant agencies to actually start
the creation process inside ofHubSpot because it'll be using
our voice.
Chad Hohn (31:14):
Exactly.
George B. Thomas (31:14):
It'll be using our tone. And so one of the
things that we used to say, andby the way, I was right
alongside with Marcus when weused to say it, was like, it's
hard for somebody to sound likeyou. If they're in an agency,
your thought leader should be inyour organization. Still agree
the thought leader should be inyour organization and they
(31:35):
should probably have theprecipice of the beginning ideas
or verticals that would helpcreate the content, but it is
really easy once this is set upfor anybody to sound like you,
as long as they're creating thecontent starting in HubSpot. For
most people.
Chad Hohn (31:51):
Now I have the brand voice or the brand identity page
pulled up in the Hub Herosandbox, and it's completely
unset up. Do you want me to pullthat up so we can take a peek at
it real quick?
George B. Thomas (32:01):
If you want to.
Chad Hohn (32:03):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that could be helpful. Let
me snag that.
George B. Thomas (32:06):
Because it'll it'll help the
Chad Hohn (32:08):
When you wanna see it
George B. Thomas (32:09):
Yes. Yeah. People it'll help people
understand. Here's why we'resaying, gather these things.
Here's why we're saying,understand these things.
Here's why we're saying, startwith the, Oh, how do we, let me
see if I can, there we go.Change that layout. There we go.
Okay.
Chad Hohn (32:24):
Yeah. So this is content and brand. And I think I
noticed a little message in yoursettings, George, that said
content brand is where this isgoing now.
George B. Thomas (32:33):
Yep.
Chad Hohn (32:34):
But it won't let you do some of the stuff until you
get your booty over here andstart putting in your brand
voice. Now you can upload files.And if they're trying to give
you the light version of whatwe're talking about by being
able to paste in a writingsample of at least 500 words so
(32:58):
that you can help it figure outwhat your kind of tone is.
Right? You can paste in that andthen, otherwise you can upload
files.
Right? Then you go through
George B. Thomas (33:10):
the setup. Think about that. Right? I just
said create a one page voicecard. Imagine the difference of
uploading a one page voice cardor like I mentioned Liz's
PowerPoint presentation as adocument.
Imagine uploading that as yourstarting line versus like trying
to like type, you know, two,three hundred, 400 words. It's
gonna be a huge difference.
Chad Hohn (33:31):
Yeah. And there's a little bit of like, who moved my
cheese going on here orwhatever, because like, they're
trying to bring together, youknow, your brand kit, your
overview, your AI data sourcesfor company profile, ICP, and
products and services and howyou would like any of your AI to
(33:53):
do marketing goals along withadditional context where you can
kind of tag your industries, tagcustomer sentiment, tag a brand
associations for both positiveand negative. All this stuff
helps it have a little bit moredata points to be able to help
put the content in a place thatneeds less refining where you
(34:16):
can, you know, it's already kindof going down the right
direction. Like tactically, thisis a great way to start going
down that AI assisted expressfunctionality.
George B. Thomas (34:28):
And I would say AI assisted human powered
level of expression. Okay. Iwanna shut up because I wanna
know where Liz and Max's brainsare.
Max Cohen (34:37):
You know, I think try I don't wanna say I'm fully on
board yet, but I feel like I'mfeeling a lot better about this
whole express thing. And I canget over the fact that I don't
like the name. And I think thename is a bit more woo woo
because I like to be veryintentional with the names of
things just because, like, I'dhate to have to explain this to
someone saying, like, hey, thisexpress stage, yeah, you're
(35:00):
gonna express yourself as acompany, but what you're really
doing is you're onboarding thisnew employee that you have
that's this AI thing. Right? Youknow, it because, again, it's
just like I'd like to think ofthe stages as something is like,
what are you literally doing?
Right? Just because I think, youknow, fancier names for stuff
just confuse things for people,which is why I love to track
(35:23):
engaged delight so much, eventhough engages probably breaks
that rule a little bit.
Chad Hohn (35:28):
Well, once once the onboarding is done, though, then
what does Express mean to you?Because it's a one time thing
with the onboarding. Right?
Max Cohen (35:36):
Yeah. Once that stuff do you think about it? Express
yourself to the AI, like, thenit, you know, it it makes sound
like you're expressing who youare so that AI understands, you
know, what to do. Right?
George B. Thomas (35:48):
AI. You're see, we're getting stuck in the
fact that we're training AI tohelp us express ourself. We're
we're training AI to help AIassist us in expressing the
organization. Because reallyexpress is the foundation of
like, you need to know how youwanna show up for who you wanna
show up, because then when yougo to create the content and get
into like amplify, you're notamplifying a turd. So, like
Chad Hohn (36:13):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (36:13):
See, but, yeah, see, the thing is is, like, when was
the like, I don't think I'veever bought something being,
like, wow, they really showedup. Like, I bought something
because they
George B. Thomas (36:25):
Well, you created something that
Max Cohen (36:26):
convinced me that well, no. No. I created I bought
something because they createdgood enough content to convince
me that I needed the thing rightafter I was searching for it.
Liz Moorehead (36:36):
I'm gonna like, it's not I'm
Max Cohen (36:38):
not sitting there like they express themselves to
me. It's just not like Well, no.
George B. Thomas (36:41):
Of course not. But they did or she wouldn't
buy. Liz, I I put put put putput your thoughts
Liz Moorehead (36:48):
throw this out there. Max, you and I could have
a much more in-depthconversation about this, but as
someone were like, this is mydomain, you will never look at
it and go like, wow. They musthave sat down and really had a
great voice and tone workshop,but you will be damn sure to
notice when they don't have it.It is the thing you think
Max Cohen (37:07):
you
Liz Moorehead (37:07):
don't need until you don't have it. And that's
how you end up with websitepages where it sounds like four
different people wrote them,Where there's zero alignment
amongst your team members aboutwho you serve, how you serve
them, and how you say it. Like,it I think we have this
assumption that great contentjust appears. There is no
(37:32):
wizard. Thank God I would be outof a job.
Right? But here's the thing.This type of stuff, it's like an
iceberg. Right? The power of aniceberg is what is below the
surface.
You only see the tip when itcomes content. You only see
everything that is above thesurface, but all of the effort
(37:52):
was below the surface. It isintentional choices. We are
going to say this, are not tosay that. We are for these
people.
We are not for these people.This is how they need us to show
up. The good news is ishonestly, if you were sitting
there going, man, they expressthemselves so great, then I
screwed up. It's supposed toappear effortless. It's supposed
(38:14):
to appear organic.
So the fact that you can't seethe matrix behind the content,
that's kind of on purpose.
George B. Thomas (38:23):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's Really? It's it's so
good.
Like, it's funny because Liz cancreate let me give you a real
world example, and I know we'rerunning out of time. I have
written the first three chaptersof the Beyond Your Default book,
and I did it in a real crazyway. And these first three
(38:43):
chapters, it's like the tip ofthe iceberg because you can't
see all the instructions. Youcan't see all of the memory. You
can't see all of the base oflike every Beyond Your Default
episode going into a project orthe custom instructions, or you
can't see the process of memaking my assistant ask me
(39:05):
questions along the way to dragcontext of like thirty years ago
in my life onto the page.
I've had people who have read itand literally said, Listen, I
cried after chapter one. It waswritten by AI typist. It was
created by human George BThomas. Nobody will ever look at
(39:27):
that and go, oh, he's doing agreat job at using AI to type
this to express himself. Butthey had an emotional moment.
Anyway.
Liz Moorehead (39:39):
I love that. Alright. I'm gonna bring this
conversation to a close today.George, I'm actually gonna ask
you a specific question asopposed to a one thing question.
George B. Thomas (39:49):
Wow.
Liz Moorehead (39:50):
I would like to know, for folks who may have
listened to us talk aboutExpress for the past two
episodes, can't they skip thisstep before going to Taylor?
George B. Thomas (40:02):
Oh, yeah, because you'll literally be
creating a turd. You willconfuse your audience. You won't
know the road that you're tryingto travel and be able to help
them travel down the road. Likethis this is so vitally
important to like how you showup as a By the way, there has to
(40:25):
be some level of self awareness.There has like, listen, the only
reason I can do what I can do inthe way that I do it is because
I've put the work in.
I've and what I mean by that isI've sat in my own air quotes,
personal therapy chair for ayear and a half with Liz on the
(40:48):
Beyond Your Default podcast tobe able to extract, like at
found fundamental levels,beliefs, core values, mindsets.
I did a workshop with Liz tolike understand voice and tone.
I've taken the time tounderstand who I am, what I And
so like you as an organization,you as the individuals who lead
(41:11):
the charge for the Taylor andAmplify and Evolve moving
forward, there's gotta be a highlevel of self awareness to the
organization and the people andthe emotions. And and if you
don't take to do that here inExpress, nothing else moves
forward in the way that itshould. Yes, Max.
Max Cohen (41:33):
I think I think also the thing that I would add to
that, because I'm I'm reallystarting to understand this
Express thing is, like, this issort of like putting a customer
success person, you know, dayone in the job without any
training. They're not gonna knowanything about your company.
They're not gonna know what youthey do. They're not gonna know
what you stand for. They're notgonna know how we talk to
customers.
They're not gonna go
Chad Hohn (41:50):
They're not
Max Cohen (41:50):
even gonna know how to answer questions. They're not
gonna understand any nuance.None of that stuff. Right? So,
like, if you had an employee,would you make them customer
facing with zero trainingwhatsoever?
Probably not. No. Right? Thesame thing goes for a content
writer or a marketer or this,that.
Chad Hohn (42:03):
Yep. Yeah. Exactly.
Liz Moorehead (42:05):
Bingo.
George B. Thomas (42:06):
It's and and now human or should I say Human.
Reached out to me before, Iwould expect you to reach out to
me and say, Max has officiallymade me happy. Okay, hub heroes.
We've reached the end of anotherepisode. Will Lord Lack continue
(42:30):
to loom over the community orwill we be able to defeat him in
the next episode of the hubheroes podcast?
Make sure you tune in and findout in the next episode. Make
sure you head over to thehubheroes.com to get the latest
episodes and become part of theleague of heroes. FYI, if you're
part of the league of heroes,you'll get the show notes right
(42:52):
in your inbox and they come withsome hidden power up potential
as well. Make sure you sharethis podcast with a friend.
Leave a review if you like whatyou're listening to and use the
hashtag hashtag hub heroespodcast on any of the socials
and let us know what strategyconversation you'd like to
listen into next.
Until next time, when we meetand combine our forces, remember
(43:15):
to be a happy, helpful, humblehuman, and of course, always be
looking for a way to besomeone's hero.
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