December 24, 2024 • 26 mins
For the YouHabits Course, Dr. Vo is offering significant discounts for early sign-ups. They would love for the listeners to join the waitlist using this link: https://vo.care/youhabits-waiting-list/ so you can receive the promo code once the course goes live.
Dr.Vo's social profiles:
- Website: https://vo.care/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vo.care
- Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/vocarepsychiatry
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/krystivo/
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@vo.care
The Intersection of Technology and Mental Health with Dr. Krysti Vo
In this premiere episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley interviews Dr. Krysti Vo, a psychiatrist and digital health innovator. The discussion explores Dr. Vo’s journey from practicing psychiatry to leveraging telehealth and AI to advance mental health care. Dr. Vo shares insights on the balance between human connection and technological facilitation. The conversation covers the benefits of AI in reducing clinicians' administrative burdens and its potential in relationship coaching and mental health. Dr. Vo also introduces her YouHabit course, which helps individuals build fulfilling habits through personalized systems. The episode concludes with a thoughtful dialogue on the evolving role of AI in society and the importance of maintaining intentionality in its application.
00:00 Introduction to The Human Code
00:49 Meet Dr. Krysti Vo: Innovator in Mental Health
02:02 The Role of Technology in Psychiatry
04:48 AI in Mental Health: Benefits and Risks
09:46 The Future of AI in Human Relationships
17:58 YouHabit: Redefining Purpose and Building Habits
23:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Sponsored by FINdustries
Hosted by Don Finley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Finley (00:00):
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
So, whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:44):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
In today's episode, we're joinedby Dr.
Kristy MD, a psychiatrist, adigital health innovator, and an
entrepreneur are reshaping theway we approach mental health
and habit building.
With over a decade ofexperience, Dr.
Vo combines her expertise inbehavioral health with a passion
(01:05):
for leveraging technology tocreate impactful solutions.
As the founder of you habits, aninnovative system designed to
help people build meaningful,personalized habits and a
consultant for cutting edgedigital health startups.
Dr.
Vo is at the forefront of usingAI to enhance mental health
care.
In this conversation, we'llexplore the balance between
(01:26):
human connection andtechnological facilitation.
The potential for AI toalleviate administrative
burdens.
And her vision for the future oftech enabled mental health.
Join us as we delve into Dr.
Vo's journey and our insights onhow technology can empower
individuals while preserving thehumanity at the heart of care.
(01:47):
I'm here with Krysti Vo.
And Krysti and I have known eachother for a number of years and
have, run into each other.
But at the same time, she bringssuch a wide, diverse background,
to the conversation.
I'm really looking forward todiving in today.
So Krysti, what got youinterested in the intersection
between humanity and technology?
Krysti Vo Md (02:07):
yes.
Thank you for that question.
So I am a physician psychiatristby training.
So I've always been interestedin humanity.
I went into psychiatry because Ijust love listening.
For one, listening to humanstories, understand their
history.
Uh, and as a psychiatrist, I'malways humble every day to hear
people's darkest thoughts andjust, be there for them in their
(02:30):
most vulnerable period.
And my career progressed to thepoint where I was at CHOP.
I was the, Medical director oftelehealth.
and I actually purposely chosenthat position so that I can
build telehealth services, forpsychiatry.
Because access to psychiatry isan issue.
Not many places havepsychiatrists.
(02:52):
and so I, Built severaltelehealth services.
And from there, I understandthat, telehealth is one of the
way to reach patients and givethem care.
at the same time, a lot oftechnology, especially in
consumer product, is veryrobust.
Healthcare is so behind.
And I got a grant from Tulio.
which is a, Fortune 500 company.
I believe they're public.
(03:13):
they do a lot of backend, textcommunication, and a lot of
backend tools for people, fordevelopers to
Don Finley (03:19):
they manage phone systems, text, messaging, really
a wide communications backendplatform.
Krysti Vo Md (03:25):
Yes.
Yes.
And with that, grant, I built asoftware platform, about, health
screening in primary care andlinking people to care.
and that was actually a bigstepping stone for me to really
engage more with technology.
And I think technology canreally help facilitate care.
It can help people get access tocare.
and for me, technology shouldn'treally replace the human
(03:46):
interaction.
It shouldn't really replace,what is so valuable in,
actually.
The rapport between humans thatactually is the key to people
getting better, but it canfacilitate a lot of things and
it can make things easierparticularly for clinicians, as
a psychiatrist, as a therapist,we're burdened with
(04:07):
administrative tasks and notetaking, etc.
And technology can helpalleviate some of those burdens.
And so it can make what we do,easier and less stressful and
less overwhelming.
Don Finley (04:19):
That's definitely an area that we're finding a lot of
focus for ourselves too, islike, how do you increase the
amount of human connection andrelationship building time and
take away the administrativefunction from a role?
So that you can focus on thatspace.
And I think that's more profoundin psychiatry and the mental
health services space, becauseyou want that human connection.
(04:42):
You want that empathy, thatcompassion we know that it's
solidly based when it's human tohuman.
Um, do you see AI getting intothat area or Uh, Uh, like
emotionally Uh, cognizant isn'tthe right word, but they are
(05:04):
aware of the emotions of theperson that's speaking.
They're able to adapt themselvesto that.
Is there a place for AI in theactual clinician setting or is
that a bridge too far?
Krysti Vo Md (05:16):
so I'm actually a digital health consultant as
well, and I consult to some AIcompanies.
one of them is actually an AInote scribe, that helps
clinicians.
They listen in on the sessionwith the patient, and they
actually write the note as thepatient.
As a clinician would, andthere's many features in that
software that's actually prettygreat.
so I actually noticed that itactually is detecting the tone
(05:38):
of the patient.
So Whenever it, proposed thenote that I should use, it
actually said, Oh, patientappear reluctant or patient
sounds anxious or patient.
like it actually proposed howthe patient is feeling in the
note.
And so I'm actually veryimpressed that, for the most
part it's accurate.
(05:58):
Uh, and I think when it comes tohow it can be used, I think.
In that such way in likeadjusting in note documentation,
that would be a good way toeliminate administrative burden
for the clinician in terms of,other usage of that technology
of detecting, motions.
I think I can also be done maybein relationship coaching.
(06:19):
I know companies that areworking on using AI to do
relation coaching.
And if let's say AI can detecta.
text message, transcript betweentwo people, and then they can be
like, Oh, this is what we thinkhappened.
And this is how that person mayhave felt.
And maybe the way to resolvethat issue or engage that person
is by empathetic communication.
(06:40):
And it can be used to trainpeople who may not, have the
bandwidth to really think abouthow they're engaging with
people, and suggesting Howpeople can engage with each
other so that people can build abetter rapport with each other,
particularly when people are ina relationship or dating or a
partnership.
Don Finley (06:57):
I think that's an incredibly powerful tool to have
like on the side that kind of,can help you in those points of
communication, Because evenlet's say you're going into
relationship counseling toimprove your relationship.
There's always a delay betweenwhen an event occurs and then
when you get a chance to sit inthat environment, but if you
have the tools and if AI canbasically be a fly on the wall
(07:20):
of the communication of therelationship, it can help to
coach you in those moments.
Uh, where you, need it beforemaybe it escalates into
something else, but alsoprovides you that coaching in
real time.
do we run the risk of any sortof like over reliance on having
these tools so closelyintegrated with our, emotional
relationships?
Krysti Vo Md (07:41):
Yes, I think that is a huge risk because, AI's
new, it's evolving and dependingon how the AI is trained at the
beginning, it can sway theperspective of a.
person.
And when we really disclose ourvulnerable state and our
vulnerable incidents in ourlives to it, we inherently, as a
human, we inherently attach tothis thing that is, seems to be
(08:06):
relieving some of our stresses.
Uh, and if this AI intentionbehind that is like, Oh, I want
you to use me forever.
Then it will automatically trainitself to want you to have more
issue with it.
Your partner so that you wouldengage with it to more, you know
what I mean?
Like if the intention of the AIis for it to be, to gain money,
(08:26):
It's capitalism.
It's capitalism, right?
AI can be capitalist,
Don Finley (08:31):
AI will be a very effective capitalist.
Like, there is no doubt aboutthat.
And I know we've trained somemodels that actually, are,
they're goal seeking, And that'sbasically what AI does is it
aligns itself to a goal.
and that's a really great pointaround the relationship coaching
that if we continue to dive intothis, if the AI is.
(08:53):
It's trained for, attention, Foryour attention and for your use,
it's going to find continualways for you to go.
I had this conversation withsome of my friends and it's a,
when you start going on yourhealing journey, there's always
going to be something to healfrom.
You can always find that anotherpiece of trauma if you want to.
(09:16):
Yeah.
And when you go down on thathealing path, when does it
become more of like yourthriving path kind of thing?
And if the AI is unable torecognize that like now you're
shifting into a space of beinghealthy, it may continue to find
ways for you to be unhealthy oroveranalyze a situation to
(09:37):
trying to find the unhealthybehavior so that it can coach
you.
Krysti Vo Md (09:41):
yes, exactly.
And I can see that going.
I can see that happening.
Don Finley (09:45):
Yeah.
Krysti Vo Md (09:46):
you think about it, the purpose of the AI, just
as like humans, when we find apurpose in something, let's say
a purpose of being a mother or apurpose of being a career
oriented woman, or a purpose of,Advocacy and human rights.
We tend to dig deeper into thatand it becomes almost our
identity.
And so if AI, we resolve itsidentity and its capitalistic
(10:07):
values and then it willeventually do that to the
extreme.
that's my theory.
Don Finley (10:12):
there's a, theory of basically if you tell like an AI
or you tell a system tobasically create as many
paperclips as it possibly can,maximize paperclip production.
one of the paths that a machinecould take is basically
consuming all resources in theworld to turn the earth itself
into paperclips, So you destroythe environment, you destroy the
(10:35):
oceans, you destroy the crust,you basically try to consume as
much of the environment aspossible because you're
maximizing paperclip production.
And you just never recognizethat hey, maybe 50 trillion
paperclips is enough.
Like we don't need any more thanthis.
And I think we need thosesafeguards in our applications
(10:56):
to help recognize when we'vegone to maybe a bridge too far,
um, type of perspective, or atleast ensuring that we're
maintaining alignment with ourconsumer, of this instead of
being solely aligned on what'sin the benefit of the entity
that provided the AI.
Krysti Vo Md (11:12):
yes.
And then, in the health techspace, or digital health space,
there are a lot of clinics andcompanies that, they used to be,
so gung ho about, Hey, we're atechnology based company, or
we're like this technologyfocus, but then now they're
starting to say, oh, we're techenable human center company.
the trend in the digital healthspace is.
using technology to enable realhuman care.
(11:36):
and I think eventually all theinterest in AI will lean that
way as well.
Like we can be AI facilitated orAI enable, but it will be human
center X, you know, whatever itis that company is doing,
Don Finley (11:49):
And I think that's an approach that I think has
both multiple benefits, Like youwere speaking about purpose
earlier, And a lot of peoplefind purpose in their work.
And if we get to a place whereAI is actually capable of doing
most people's jobs, then wheredoes that leave the human in the
equation?
are we necessary for the work tobe done?
(12:10):
And if we're not necessary, butwe still want to be doing it.
There is value in that.
And like, I think that having AIthat is aligned with people, but
also, you know, helping toensure that like the humans can
maintain the connection thatthey have with other humans in
the workplace or in their dailylives, is incredibly important.
(12:34):
And I'm glad to see that thehealthcare space is making that
transition as well to being moretech enabled than really being
tech driven.
cause that human relationship isincredibly important to just our
own mental wellbeing.
have you heard of the deadinternet theory?
Krysti Vo Md (12:52):
I have not
Don Finley (12:53):
Okay, I first came across this theory back in I
want to say that it wassomewhere between 2016 and 2018.
The idea is that at some point,the internet is going to be
filled with more traffic frombots than it is from humans.
And so these bots come in manydifferent forms.
They might be on social sites,they might be on other
locations, and they might justbe communicating with each
(13:15):
other.
The challenge becomes if they'reon let's say social media sites.
You don't know whether you'retalking to a person or you're
talking to a bot.
And when you have, let's say 80percent people as the traffic,
then it's not so much a problem.
But when you start getting above50%, Uh, How much of that is
(14:03):
actually on one platform or theother, I think is up for debate.
But you can see the quality ofthe conversation dropping.
And I think what you're noticingin the healthcare space is If we
use bots for bots or use AI forall places where we can use it,
we might miss out on that humanconnection.
Krysti Vo Md (14:19):
Yeah, yes, I definitely agree with you.
And I think when it comes to botfacility conversation it is a
mental health risks, becausethere are a lot of people who
cannot detect whether somethingis a bot or a real person,
especially people who have beenisolated, people who don't have
that much social interaction atbaseline, uh, they can get into
A rabbit hole or a connectionwith, with a bot.
(14:42):
And when, if you use AI to usebots, that it just gets smarter
and smarter, then that personcan really become like her, like
it can really fall in love witha bot.
And I think the risk is therewhere it could happen.
Don Finley (14:55):
we're, there's a company out there called
character AI.
And there's a really interestingthing that happens is you can
build your own avatar, like themovie her, and you can build
relationships, haveconversations with these
avatars.
And the.
only time that community reallygets together to talk about what
(15:17):
they're doing is when the siteis down.
And then you see them on messageboards, that like coming the
news of what the site is down.
Okay, now we got to go talk topeople.
and it is really amazing that wehave AIs out there that people
are having that kind ofconnection with.
And then also somewhatPersonally, I find it just,
(15:40):
disheartening
Krysti Vo Md (15:41):
Um,
Don Finley (15:42):
see that people are, essentially isolating from human
connection to have a connectionwith, an AI character.
Krysti Vo Md (15:49):
Yes, I was actually talking to this with a
colleague the other day, and ourdefinition of connection is
going to be redefined because,the analogy is that our parents
are like, oh, why are you on thelaptop so much?
Why are y'all on TV so much?
You need to get out there andplay.
Nowadays kids don't really gooutside and play anymore, but
(16:09):
they're chatting to each otherwhile they're playing games.
To the kid, this is connection.
Chatting with someone while I'mplaying a game is connection.
But to the older parent, they'relike, that's not connection.
You need to see them each otherphysically.
So the definition that theparent has regarding connection
is physical, in personconnection, versus connection
that the Xiao definition isconnection through.
(16:31):
Bantering online with chattingwith each other and playing
games together.
So I think the definition ofsociety of what connection
entails and how that entails isgoing to change.
And whether it's with a bot orwhether it's with a person,
you're right, we don't want toactually label that as sad or
not sad.
Right now, I'm trying to be asneutral as possible.
So I'm giving this perspectivethat perhaps it's not a sad
(16:52):
thing.
if without that bot, people who,let's say, people with autism,
they struggle with humaninteraction.
Without that bot, that personwith autism, we'll feel even
more lonely.
We'll feel even more
Don Finley (17:03):
Ah, okay.
Krysti Vo Md (17:05):
That's their sense of relationship.
If it was without that bot, thenthat person with autism will not
want a purpose to live, not havea purpose.
I'm going to extreme here, but Ican see that.
happening.
I can see that
Don Finley (17:17):
Yeah, I can totally appreciate that.
That situation, like theneutrality that you brought to
the conversation on that is, isreally helpful.
Cause there is definitely aplace for these tools.
There's definitely a place oflike healthy usage, as well.
And that communication and that,character interaction that you
can have with the AI could bevery beneficial for you to get
(17:38):
into, human to human contact aswell.
Like you're saying, like therecould be people who where this
could be a baseline start or itcould be a, a supplement.
to what they're doing as well.
That's really positive.
Thank you.
I know you've got a anotherproject that you're working on
that I want to make sure that wetalk about as well, because
there was some interest on theYouHabit side.
(17:58):
what was the impetus of bringingthis to life?
And What's your vision forYouHabit?
Krysti Vo Md (18:03):
yes.
So YouHabit is a course thathelps people really redefine
their purpose.
what do they find?
fulfilling.
What do they want to do?
What do they want to be?
What is their core values?
What, is their priority in life?
And they actually have them takea look at that and then adopt
habits that aligns with theirpriorities and their values.
(18:25):
Adopt habits that will befulfilling for them.
And, uh, of course, it's theirseries of steps.
Uh, that help people, to adoptthose habits, such as using the
habit loop, uh, such as using,some other tools that I actually
take from my business, from thebusiness realm, such as, the
impact effort matrix, so usingthose tools.
(18:47):
The purpose is to really helppeople adopt habits that in
small, that are manageable,realistic, and relevant to their
life, where that at the end ofthe course, they will have all
the tools they need, so thatThey will use those tools over
and over again in their life,whenever they think of re
evaluating where they currentlystand, what they currently do,
(19:08):
and how to even improve theirlife to be more fulfilling.
and right now the course hasn'tlaunched yet.
I'm currently doing it in personfor a selected number of groups.
but hopefully by January, wewill launch on my website.
people can.
Sign up online and it will be anonline course.
I'm also open to collaboratingwith any software developer or
(19:30):
any company that would want toUse this program this YouHabit
course and develop it furtherperhaps even Developing some ai
to help facilitate some of thecoaching aspects that this
course has
Don Finley (19:45):
And that's, I think, a great kind of delineation of
where AI can be really helpfulin the near term is in that
coaching realm.
because it, you can bring anumber of skills to it.
Like you're talking about yourimpact effort matrix, as well as
the, habit loops and having, anAI that I've worked on one
myself.
In that area and having it to beable to analyze both my actions
(20:09):
and what's like the perspectivethat I have on this and then
adopting to those tools has beenreally helpful to bring about a
different perspective in some ofthat work.
Krysti Vo Md (20:18):
and I knew in my course, one of the key premise
is that you have to develop asystem that really works for
you.
It's not really about.
Your willpower, your willpowercan only go so much, but
honestly, it's really about thesystem that you built around
your habits that makes itsustainable and workable.
and the AI can really remindpeople to revisit their habit
(20:42):
loop or revisit some of thesetools and then modify it.
The AI can really help thepeople modify it further by
asking questions.
and why wasn't it working?
what happened that day that youdidn't do, you didn't go work
out?
and those are things I do inperson.
that's what I do when I coach myclients.
but I'm not in the moment.
I'm not in real time.
I only see them once a week.
(21:04):
So we can use AI in such a waywhere we're collecting data from
the patient in real time, howare you feeling at that moment,
because patients reported.
information back to me a weeklater is also not accurate.
so I think that's how I woulduse AI, for this potential
software, that adopt myYouHabit, of course.
Don Finley (21:22):
Oh, I love that and absolutely would love to
continue the conversation aroundlike what you're doing with
YouHabit and it's It sounds likesuch a fascinating way to bring
people together as well as tooffer some opportunity for
people to find their own pathand you can go on youtube You
can find anybody Offering, thisis the path that I took this is
(21:42):
your path to success This islike how you find your purpose
but at the same time likeeverybody's Finding that purpose
can be different and has to bethat managing and understanding
of how you learn about yourselfand how you learn about where
you're going at the same timebecause in that journey is the
discovery yeah, and I love thatyou're offering things that have
(22:04):
a bit of balance of trying tofind for you what works and what
is effective.
and getting those feedback loopsgoing
Krysti Vo Md (22:12):
yes.
And that's harder.
That's harder for people to dobecause a lot of times, even
people that go to my class,they're like, just tell me what
to do.
What is the ideal morningroutine?
What is the ideal day?
And I'm like, sure.
There's plenty of people.
No, really.
There's plenty of people onYouTube.
Coaches are telling you thatthis is the ideal morning.
But if it's not working for youand you're not doing it, then
(22:34):
you're It's not helpful.
We need to really think aboutwhat are you currently doing
now, and how can we get there toa little bit incremental change
at a time to live the life thatyou want to live, and that is
still fulfilling.
Just because the society tellsme I should work out three times
a day for at least 30 minutes ata gym doesn't mean that's the
(22:55):
right thing for you.
What right for you could bejust, Buying a treadmill at home
and buying a stand up desk andthen just walking on it for 30
minutes, So we gotta, we gottathink, brainstorm wider.
What fits you, your lifestyle,what you want to do, and what
you define as fulfilling.
so for people who want to knowand Stay in touch with what I'm
doing with YouHabits.
(23:15):
They can check out my website.
My website is Vo.
care.
Yeah, it's instead of dot com.
It's Vo.
care.
Very simple.
And then join my mailing list.
Join
Don Finley (23:27):
absolutely.
So we'll definitely send peopleto Vodacare, for you habits,
joining the mailing list.
we'll also include a link tothat in the show notes as well.
Krysti, is there anything Ihaven't touched on or anything
that you want to throw in thatwe might've missed?
evaded conversation so far.
Krysti Vo Md (23:44):
think it's, AI is not something to be afraid of.
I think when people talk aboutthings that could be the
negative side of things, I thinkof it as the analogy to that is
like when the TV came out orthe, when the phone came out and
when the internet came out,everyone was like, Oh my gosh,
it's going to change life andpeople are just going to be
isolated, in a cave and not seesunshine.
But yes, there are a niche ofgroup of people that it could
(24:07):
really have a negative impacton.
But overall of society, I thinkit will be, just infused into
our daily life where we don'teven think about it much.
Don Finley (24:16):
and it is funny that you're giving that path.
We had a, futurist from theUniversity of Washington on the
show, actually twice now, DanielW.
Rasmus, and he was talking aboutthe scenarios of what I could
do.
And there's the dystopian view,Like Terminator.
and then there's the utopianside that He was calling the
healing path, basically, can wemake the economy more equitable
(24:38):
for everybody?
Can we, reverse climate change,in some form or fashion and
would AI be that driver thatdoes it?
And then there was two others.
There was.
One of them that wastransactional and like you would
interact with AI ontransactional basis.
Like I'm trying to do this andthere's the AI.
I'm trying to do that.
There's the AI, And the otherone was meh.
(24:58):
And it was the aspect of meh wasyou're not even going to notice
it because it's just going to belike electricity.
It's just going to be there,Like you just take it for
granted that you go into abuilding and the lights turn on
and that is both A reallymagical place to be, but
additionally, like a cool placefor us to be in right now, to
(25:20):
see this transformation of a newform of electricity being added
to our life.
Krysti Vo Md (25:25):
Yes, I think that's my view, at least.
I think that's where it will go.
But if we see that deviatingfrom that, we do need to shift
it back toward that, right?
we see it going more on thedystopic side, as human, we
should really push AI and thetechnology to go more of the
utopia side,
Don Finley (25:45):
That's a great segment.
And I like really appreciatethat we just got it.
We've got to stay present inthis moment of like where we're
at with this technology and howwe're choosing to apply it and
what we're choosing to like.
Krysti Vo Md (25:56):
and do it.
with intentionality.
Do it within
Don Finley (25:58):
Exactly.
Yeah.
This is definitely the firstshovel we've made that actually
chooses where it digs.
So yeah, amazing.
Krysti, thank you so much forbeing on the show today.
really appreciate the time andthank you again.
Krysti Vo Md (26:11):
Yes.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
Thank you for having me.
Don Finley (26:15):
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(26:36):
co.
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
So, whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:44):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
In today's episode, we're joinedby Dr.
Kristy MD, a psychiatrist, adigital health innovator, and an
entrepreneur are reshaping theway we approach mental health
and habit building.
With over a decade ofexperience, Dr.
Vo combines her expertise inbehavioral health with a passion
(01:05):
for leveraging technology tocreate impactful solutions.
As the founder of you habits, aninnovative system designed to
help people build meaningful,personalized habits and a
consultant for cutting edgedigital health startups.
Dr.
Vo is at the forefront of usingAI to enhance mental health
care.
In this conversation, we'llexplore the balance between
(01:26):
human connection andtechnological facilitation.
The potential for AI toalleviate administrative
burdens.
And her vision for the future oftech enabled mental health.
Join us as we delve into Dr.
Vo's journey and our insights onhow technology can empower
individuals while preserving thehumanity at the heart of care.
(01:47):
I'm here with Krysti Vo.
And Krysti and I have known eachother for a number of years and
have, run into each other.
But at the same time, she bringssuch a wide, diverse background,
to the conversation.
I'm really looking forward todiving in today.
So Krysti, what got youinterested in the intersection
between humanity and technology?
Krysti Vo Md (02:07):
yes.
Thank you for that question.
So I am a physician psychiatristby training.
So I've always been interestedin humanity.
I went into psychiatry because Ijust love listening.
For one, listening to humanstories, understand their
history.
Uh, and as a psychiatrist, I'malways humble every day to hear
people's darkest thoughts andjust, be there for them in their
(02:30):
most vulnerable period.
And my career progressed to thepoint where I was at CHOP.
I was the, Medical director oftelehealth.
and I actually purposely chosenthat position so that I can
build telehealth services, forpsychiatry.
Because access to psychiatry isan issue.
Not many places havepsychiatrists.
(02:52):
and so I, Built severaltelehealth services.
And from there, I understandthat, telehealth is one of the
way to reach patients and givethem care.
at the same time, a lot oftechnology, especially in
consumer product, is veryrobust.
Healthcare is so behind.
And I got a grant from Tulio.
which is a, Fortune 500 company.
I believe they're public.
(03:13):
they do a lot of backend, textcommunication, and a lot of
backend tools for people, fordevelopers to
Don Finley (03:19):
they manage phone systems, text, messaging, really
a wide communications backendplatform.
Krysti Vo Md (03:25):
Yes.
Yes.
And with that, grant, I built asoftware platform, about, health
screening in primary care andlinking people to care.
and that was actually a bigstepping stone for me to really
engage more with technology.
And I think technology canreally help facilitate care.
It can help people get access tocare.
and for me, technology shouldn'treally replace the human
(03:46):
interaction.
It shouldn't really replace,what is so valuable in,
actually.
The rapport between humans thatactually is the key to people
getting better, but it canfacilitate a lot of things and
it can make things easierparticularly for clinicians, as
a psychiatrist, as a therapist,we're burdened with
(04:07):
administrative tasks and notetaking, etc.
And technology can helpalleviate some of those burdens.
And so it can make what we do,easier and less stressful and
less overwhelming.
Don Finley (04:19):
That's definitely an area that we're finding a lot of
focus for ourselves too, islike, how do you increase the
amount of human connection andrelationship building time and
take away the administrativefunction from a role?
So that you can focus on thatspace.
And I think that's more profoundin psychiatry and the mental
health services space, becauseyou want that human connection.
(04:42):
You want that empathy, thatcompassion we know that it's
solidly based when it's human tohuman.
Um, do you see AI getting intothat area or Uh, Uh, like
emotionally Uh, cognizant isn'tthe right word, but they are
(05:04):
aware of the emotions of theperson that's speaking.
They're able to adapt themselvesto that.
Is there a place for AI in theactual clinician setting or is
that a bridge too far?
Krysti Vo Md (05:16):
so I'm actually a digital health consultant as
well, and I consult to some AIcompanies.
one of them is actually an AInote scribe, that helps
clinicians.
They listen in on the sessionwith the patient, and they
actually write the note as thepatient.
As a clinician would, andthere's many features in that
software that's actually prettygreat.
so I actually noticed that itactually is detecting the tone
(05:38):
of the patient.
So Whenever it, proposed thenote that I should use, it
actually said, Oh, patientappear reluctant or patient
sounds anxious or patient.
like it actually proposed howthe patient is feeling in the
note.
And so I'm actually veryimpressed that, for the most
part it's accurate.
(05:58):
Uh, and I think when it comes tohow it can be used, I think.
In that such way in likeadjusting in note documentation,
that would be a good way toeliminate administrative burden
for the clinician in terms of,other usage of that technology
of detecting, motions.
I think I can also be done maybein relationship coaching.
(06:19):
I know companies that areworking on using AI to do
relation coaching.
And if let's say AI can detecta.
text message, transcript betweentwo people, and then they can be
like, Oh, this is what we thinkhappened.
And this is how that person mayhave felt.
And maybe the way to resolvethat issue or engage that person
is by empathetic communication.
(06:40):
And it can be used to trainpeople who may not, have the
bandwidth to really think abouthow they're engaging with
people, and suggesting Howpeople can engage with each
other so that people can build abetter rapport with each other,
particularly when people are ina relationship or dating or a
partnership.
Don Finley (06:57):
I think that's an incredibly powerful tool to have
like on the side that kind of,can help you in those points of
communication, Because evenlet's say you're going into
relationship counseling toimprove your relationship.
There's always a delay betweenwhen an event occurs and then
when you get a chance to sit inthat environment, but if you
have the tools and if AI canbasically be a fly on the wall
(07:20):
of the communication of therelationship, it can help to
coach you in those moments.
Uh, where you, need it beforemaybe it escalates into
something else, but alsoprovides you that coaching in
real time.
do we run the risk of any sortof like over reliance on having
these tools so closelyintegrated with our, emotional
relationships?
Krysti Vo Md (07:41):
Yes, I think that is a huge risk because, AI's
new, it's evolving and dependingon how the AI is trained at the
beginning, it can sway theperspective of a.
person.
And when we really disclose ourvulnerable state and our
vulnerable incidents in ourlives to it, we inherently, as a
human, we inherently attach tothis thing that is, seems to be
(08:06):
relieving some of our stresses.
Uh, and if this AI intentionbehind that is like, Oh, I want
you to use me forever.
Then it will automatically trainitself to want you to have more
issue with it.
Your partner so that you wouldengage with it to more, you know
what I mean?
Like if the intention of the AIis for it to be, to gain money,
(08:26):
It's capitalism.
It's capitalism, right?
AI can be capitalist,
Don Finley (08:31):
AI will be a very effective capitalist.
Like, there is no doubt aboutthat.
And I know we've trained somemodels that actually, are,
they're goal seeking, And that'sbasically what AI does is it
aligns itself to a goal.
and that's a really great pointaround the relationship coaching
that if we continue to dive intothis, if the AI is.
(08:53):
It's trained for, attention, Foryour attention and for your use,
it's going to find continualways for you to go.
I had this conversation withsome of my friends and it's a,
when you start going on yourhealing journey, there's always
going to be something to healfrom.
You can always find that anotherpiece of trauma if you want to.
(09:16):
Yeah.
And when you go down on thathealing path, when does it
become more of like yourthriving path kind of thing?
And if the AI is unable torecognize that like now you're
shifting into a space of beinghealthy, it may continue to find
ways for you to be unhealthy oroveranalyze a situation to
(09:37):
trying to find the unhealthybehavior so that it can coach
you.
Krysti Vo Md (09:41):
yes, exactly.
And I can see that going.
I can see that happening.
Don Finley (09:45):
Yeah.
Krysti Vo Md (09:46):
you think about it, the purpose of the AI, just
as like humans, when we find apurpose in something, let's say
a purpose of being a mother or apurpose of being a career
oriented woman, or a purpose of,Advocacy and human rights.
We tend to dig deeper into thatand it becomes almost our
identity.
And so if AI, we resolve itsidentity and its capitalistic
(10:07):
values and then it willeventually do that to the
extreme.
that's my theory.
Don Finley (10:12):
there's a, theory of basically if you tell like an AI
or you tell a system tobasically create as many
paperclips as it possibly can,maximize paperclip production.
one of the paths that a machinecould take is basically
consuming all resources in theworld to turn the earth itself
into paperclips, So you destroythe environment, you destroy the
(10:35):
oceans, you destroy the crust,you basically try to consume as
much of the environment aspossible because you're
maximizing paperclip production.
And you just never recognizethat hey, maybe 50 trillion
paperclips is enough.
Like we don't need any more thanthis.
And I think we need thosesafeguards in our applications
(10:56):
to help recognize when we'vegone to maybe a bridge too far,
um, type of perspective, or atleast ensuring that we're
maintaining alignment with ourconsumer, of this instead of
being solely aligned on what'sin the benefit of the entity
that provided the AI.
Krysti Vo Md (11:12):
yes.
And then, in the health techspace, or digital health space,
there are a lot of clinics andcompanies that, they used to be,
so gung ho about, Hey, we're atechnology based company, or
we're like this technologyfocus, but then now they're
starting to say, oh, we're techenable human center company.
the trend in the digital healthspace is.
using technology to enable realhuman care.
(11:36):
and I think eventually all theinterest in AI will lean that
way as well.
Like we can be AI facilitated orAI enable, but it will be human
center X, you know, whatever itis that company is doing,
Don Finley (11:49):
And I think that's an approach that I think has
both multiple benefits, Like youwere speaking about purpose
earlier, And a lot of peoplefind purpose in their work.
And if we get to a place whereAI is actually capable of doing
most people's jobs, then wheredoes that leave the human in the
equation?
are we necessary for the work tobe done?
(12:10):
And if we're not necessary, butwe still want to be doing it.
There is value in that.
And like, I think that having AIthat is aligned with people, but
also, you know, helping toensure that like the humans can
maintain the connection thatthey have with other humans in
the workplace or in their dailylives, is incredibly important.
(12:34):
And I'm glad to see that thehealthcare space is making that
transition as well to being moretech enabled than really being
tech driven.
cause that human relationship isincredibly important to just our
own mental wellbeing.
have you heard of the deadinternet theory?
Krysti Vo Md (12:52):
I have not
Don Finley (12:53):
Okay, I first came across this theory back in I
want to say that it wassomewhere between 2016 and 2018.
The idea is that at some point,the internet is going to be
filled with more traffic frombots than it is from humans.
And so these bots come in manydifferent forms.
They might be on social sites,they might be on other
locations, and they might justbe communicating with each
(13:15):
other.
The challenge becomes if they'reon let's say social media sites.
You don't know whether you'retalking to a person or you're
talking to a bot.
And when you have, let's say 80percent people as the traffic,
then it's not so much a problem.
But when you start getting above50%, Uh, How much of that is
(14:03):
actually on one platform or theother, I think is up for debate.
But you can see the quality ofthe conversation dropping.
And I think what you're noticingin the healthcare space is If we
use bots for bots or use AI forall places where we can use it,
we might miss out on that humanconnection.
Krysti Vo Md (14:19):
Yeah, yes, I definitely agree with you.
And I think when it comes to botfacility conversation it is a
mental health risks, becausethere are a lot of people who
cannot detect whether somethingis a bot or a real person,
especially people who have beenisolated, people who don't have
that much social interaction atbaseline, uh, they can get into
A rabbit hole or a connectionwith, with a bot.
(14:42):
And when, if you use AI to usebots, that it just gets smarter
and smarter, then that personcan really become like her, like
it can really fall in love witha bot.
And I think the risk is therewhere it could happen.
Don Finley (14:55):
we're, there's a company out there called
character AI.
And there's a really interestingthing that happens is you can
build your own avatar, like themovie her, and you can build
relationships, haveconversations with these
avatars.
And the.
only time that community reallygets together to talk about what
(15:17):
they're doing is when the siteis down.
And then you see them on messageboards, that like coming the
news of what the site is down.
Okay, now we got to go talk topeople.
and it is really amazing that wehave AIs out there that people
are having that kind ofconnection with.
And then also somewhatPersonally, I find it just,
(15:40):
disheartening
Krysti Vo Md (15:41):
Um,
Don Finley (15:42):
see that people are, essentially isolating from human
connection to have a connectionwith, an AI character.
Krysti Vo Md (15:49):
Yes, I was actually talking to this with a
colleague the other day, and ourdefinition of connection is
going to be redefined because,the analogy is that our parents
are like, oh, why are you on thelaptop so much?
Why are y'all on TV so much?
You need to get out there andplay.
Nowadays kids don't really gooutside and play anymore, but
(16:09):
they're chatting to each otherwhile they're playing games.
To the kid, this is connection.
Chatting with someone while I'mplaying a game is connection.
But to the older parent, they'relike, that's not connection.
You need to see them each otherphysically.
So the definition that theparent has regarding connection
is physical, in personconnection, versus connection
that the Xiao definition isconnection through.
(16:31):
Bantering online with chattingwith each other and playing
games together.
So I think the definition ofsociety of what connection
entails and how that entails isgoing to change.
And whether it's with a bot orwhether it's with a person,
you're right, we don't want toactually label that as sad or
not sad.
Right now, I'm trying to be asneutral as possible.
So I'm giving this perspectivethat perhaps it's not a sad
(16:52):
thing.
if without that bot, people who,let's say, people with autism,
they struggle with humaninteraction.
Without that bot, that personwith autism, we'll feel even
more lonely.
We'll feel even more
Don Finley (17:03):
Ah, okay.
Krysti Vo Md (17:05):
That's their sense of relationship.
If it was without that bot, thenthat person with autism will not
want a purpose to live, not havea purpose.
I'm going to extreme here, but Ican see that.
happening.
I can see that
Don Finley (17:17):
Yeah, I can totally appreciate that.
That situation, like theneutrality that you brought to
the conversation on that is, isreally helpful.
Cause there is definitely aplace for these tools.
There's definitely a place oflike healthy usage, as well.
And that communication and that,character interaction that you
can have with the AI could bevery beneficial for you to get
(17:38):
into, human to human contact aswell.
Like you're saying, like therecould be people who where this
could be a baseline start or itcould be a, a supplement.
to what they're doing as well.
That's really positive.
Thank you.
I know you've got a anotherproject that you're working on
that I want to make sure that wetalk about as well, because
there was some interest on theYouHabit side.
(17:58):
what was the impetus of bringingthis to life?
And What's your vision forYouHabit?
Krysti Vo Md (18:03):
yes.
So YouHabit is a course thathelps people really redefine
their purpose.
what do they find?
fulfilling.
What do they want to do?
What do they want to be?
What is their core values?
What, is their priority in life?
And they actually have them takea look at that and then adopt
habits that aligns with theirpriorities and their values.
(18:25):
Adopt habits that will befulfilling for them.
And, uh, of course, it's theirseries of steps.
Uh, that help people, to adoptthose habits, such as using the
habit loop, uh, such as using,some other tools that I actually
take from my business, from thebusiness realm, such as, the
impact effort matrix, so usingthose tools.
(18:47):
The purpose is to really helppeople adopt habits that in
small, that are manageable,realistic, and relevant to their
life, where that at the end ofthe course, they will have all
the tools they need, so thatThey will use those tools over
and over again in their life,whenever they think of re
evaluating where they currentlystand, what they currently do,
(19:08):
and how to even improve theirlife to be more fulfilling.
and right now the course hasn'tlaunched yet.
I'm currently doing it in personfor a selected number of groups.
but hopefully by January, wewill launch on my website.
people can.
Sign up online and it will be anonline course.
I'm also open to collaboratingwith any software developer or
(19:30):
any company that would want toUse this program this YouHabit
course and develop it furtherperhaps even Developing some ai
to help facilitate some of thecoaching aspects that this
course has
Don Finley (19:45):
And that's, I think, a great kind of delineation of
where AI can be really helpfulin the near term is in that
coaching realm.
because it, you can bring anumber of skills to it.
Like you're talking about yourimpact effort matrix, as well as
the, habit loops and having, anAI that I've worked on one
myself.
In that area and having it to beable to analyze both my actions
(20:09):
and what's like the perspectivethat I have on this and then
adopting to those tools has beenreally helpful to bring about a
different perspective in some ofthat work.
Krysti Vo Md (20:18):
and I knew in my course, one of the key premise
is that you have to develop asystem that really works for
you.
It's not really about.
Your willpower, your willpowercan only go so much, but
honestly, it's really about thesystem that you built around
your habits that makes itsustainable and workable.
and the AI can really remindpeople to revisit their habit
(20:42):
loop or revisit some of thesetools and then modify it.
The AI can really help thepeople modify it further by
asking questions.
and why wasn't it working?
what happened that day that youdidn't do, you didn't go work
out?
and those are things I do inperson.
that's what I do when I coach myclients.
but I'm not in the moment.
I'm not in real time.
I only see them once a week.
(21:04):
So we can use AI in such a waywhere we're collecting data from
the patient in real time, howare you feeling at that moment,
because patients reported.
information back to me a weeklater is also not accurate.
so I think that's how I woulduse AI, for this potential
software, that adopt myYouHabit, of course.
Don Finley (21:22):
Oh, I love that and absolutely would love to
continue the conversation aroundlike what you're doing with
YouHabit and it's It sounds likesuch a fascinating way to bring
people together as well as tooffer some opportunity for
people to find their own pathand you can go on youtube You
can find anybody Offering, thisis the path that I took this is
(21:42):
your path to success This islike how you find your purpose
but at the same time likeeverybody's Finding that purpose
can be different and has to bethat managing and understanding
of how you learn about yourselfand how you learn about where
you're going at the same timebecause in that journey is the
discovery yeah, and I love thatyou're offering things that have
(22:04):
a bit of balance of trying tofind for you what works and what
is effective.
and getting those feedback loopsgoing
Krysti Vo Md (22:12):
yes.
And that's harder.
That's harder for people to dobecause a lot of times, even
people that go to my class,they're like, just tell me what
to do.
What is the ideal morningroutine?
What is the ideal day?
And I'm like, sure.
There's plenty of people.
No, really.
There's plenty of people onYouTube.
Coaches are telling you thatthis is the ideal morning.
But if it's not working for youand you're not doing it, then
(22:34):
you're It's not helpful.
We need to really think aboutwhat are you currently doing
now, and how can we get there toa little bit incremental change
at a time to live the life thatyou want to live, and that is
still fulfilling.
Just because the society tellsme I should work out three times
a day for at least 30 minutes ata gym doesn't mean that's the
(22:55):
right thing for you.
What right for you could bejust, Buying a treadmill at home
and buying a stand up desk andthen just walking on it for 30
minutes, So we gotta, we gottathink, brainstorm wider.
What fits you, your lifestyle,what you want to do, and what
you define as fulfilling.
so for people who want to knowand Stay in touch with what I'm
doing with YouHabits.
(23:15):
They can check out my website.
My website is Vo.
care.
Yeah, it's instead of dot com.
It's Vo.
care.
Very simple.
And then join my mailing list.
Join
Don Finley (23:27):
absolutely.
So we'll definitely send peopleto Vodacare, for you habits,
joining the mailing list.
we'll also include a link tothat in the show notes as well.
Krysti, is there anything Ihaven't touched on or anything
that you want to throw in thatwe might've missed?
evaded conversation so far.
Krysti Vo Md (23:44):
think it's, AI is not something to be afraid of.
I think when people talk aboutthings that could be the
negative side of things, I thinkof it as the analogy to that is
like when the TV came out orthe, when the phone came out and
when the internet came out,everyone was like, Oh my gosh,
it's going to change life andpeople are just going to be
isolated, in a cave and not seesunshine.
But yes, there are a niche ofgroup of people that it could
(24:07):
really have a negative impacton.
But overall of society, I thinkit will be, just infused into
our daily life where we don'teven think about it much.
Don Finley (24:16):
and it is funny that you're giving that path.
We had a, futurist from theUniversity of Washington on the
show, actually twice now, DanielW.
Rasmus, and he was talking aboutthe scenarios of what I could
do.
And there's the dystopian view,Like Terminator.
and then there's the utopianside that He was calling the
healing path, basically, can wemake the economy more equitable
(24:38):
for everybody?
Can we, reverse climate change,in some form or fashion and
would AI be that driver thatdoes it?
And then there was two others.
There was.
One of them that wastransactional and like you would
interact with AI ontransactional basis.
Like I'm trying to do this andthere's the AI.
I'm trying to do that.
There's the AI, And the otherone was meh.
(24:58):
And it was the aspect of meh wasyou're not even going to notice
it because it's just going to belike electricity.
It's just going to be there,Like you just take it for
granted that you go into abuilding and the lights turn on
and that is both A reallymagical place to be, but
additionally, like a cool placefor us to be in right now, to
(25:20):
see this transformation of a newform of electricity being added
to our life.
Krysti Vo Md (25:25):
Yes, I think that's my view, at least.
I think that's where it will go.
But if we see that deviatingfrom that, we do need to shift
it back toward that, right?
we see it going more on thedystopic side, as human, we
should really push AI and thetechnology to go more of the
utopia side,
Don Finley (25:45):
That's a great segment.
And I like really appreciatethat we just got it.
We've got to stay present inthis moment of like where we're
at with this technology and howwe're choosing to apply it and
what we're choosing to like.
Krysti Vo Md (25:56):
and do it.
with intentionality.
Do it within
Don Finley (25:58):
Exactly.
Yeah.
This is definitely the firstshovel we've made that actually
chooses where it digs.
So yeah, amazing.
Krysti, thank you so much forbeing on the show today.
really appreciate the time andthank you again.
Krysti Vo Md (26:11):
Yes.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
Thank you for having me.
Don Finley (26:15):
Thank you for tuning into The Human Code, sponsored
by FINdustries, where we harnessAI to elevate your business.
By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
growth, we turn opportunitiesinto reality.
Let FINdustries be your guide toAI mastery, making success
inevitable.
Explore how at FINdustries.
(26:36):
co.
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