December 3, 2024 • 50 mins
Integrity in Tech Leadership: William “Bill” Sullivan's Journey
In this episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley dives into a conversation with William “Bill” Sullivan, a seasoned tech leader known for his focus on integrity, ethics, and the intersection of humanity and technology. Bill's career spans pivotal roles at Oracle, IBM, AWS, and PeopleSoft, where he led major transformations and fostered innovation. The discussion touches upon his leadership philosophies, experiences navigating complex business environments, and the personal challenges he faced, including a high-stakes legal battle as a whistleblower. Bill shares valuable insights on leadership, the enduring significance of people in technology, and standing firm on one's principles even in adverse situations.
Bill's book “It Used To Be Fun: A Federal Whistleblower’s Trip Through The Software Industry” will be published soon.
00:00 Introduction to The Human Code Podcast
00:49 Meet William “Bill” Sullivan: A Leader in Tech
02:15 Bill's Early Career and Lessons Learned
05:33 Navigating Business Transformations
09:02 Leadership Philosophies and Team Dynamics
13:23 Challenges and Successes at PeopleSoft
19:04 Informatica: Ethical Dilemmas and Leadership
25:24 Legal Advice and Initial Steps 26:38 Justice Department Takes the Case
27:39 Facing the Consequences
28:23 Guiding Principles and Integrity
32:16 Impact on Career and Personal Life
38:19 Whistleblower Challenges and Legal Battles
43:15 Future Aspirations and Final Thoughts
Sponsored by FINdustries
Hosted by Don Finley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Finley (00:00):
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:43):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
Our guest today is billSullivan.
A leader whose careerexemplifies the intersection of
humanity and technology.
with decades of experiencesteering transformative change,
in some of the most admiredtechnology companies.
Bill has a unique perspective ondriving growth, fostering
(01:04):
innovation and building teamswith integrity.
From pivotal roles at Oracle IBMand AWS.
To being at the helm of aremarkable turnarounds and
strategic initiatives.
Bill's story is one ofresilience, vision and steadfast
commitment to ethics.
In this episode, we exploreBill's experience navigating
complex businesstransformations, the principles
(01:25):
that shaped his leadershipphilosophy and his thoughts on
the evolving relationshipbetween people and technology.
Join us as we uncover thelessons learned from a career
built on trust, truth, andimpact.
I'm here with my friend BillSullivan, and I gotta say Bill,
thank you so much for being onthe show today.
It's absolutely an honor to haveyou on.
(01:47):
you have such an interestingstory to tell, and it is really
in line with how our humanityintersects with technology
throughout the entire thing.
but I really just want to startthis off with what got you
interested in the intersectionof humanity and technology?
Bill Sullivan (02:04):
Don, first, thanks so much for having me on
You and I have spoken one timebefore and I really enjoyed your
approach.
What really got me interested inpeering and talking about my
experience is precisely thatpoint.
I've been around working intechnology since the mainframe
era and I Can tell you that thebest technology does not always
win.
The best execution wins.
(02:26):
And for good execution, you needtwo things, good leadership and
good people.
And throughout my career, I'vebeen fortunate to lead some
great teams.
And as a result, I've got someunique introspections on that.
others in that, lawyers don'ttake the body of Bankruptcy law
and throw it out the windowevery 12 to 15 years, in the
(02:48):
time that I've been here We'veseen us go from mainframe to
client server, to the internet,to the cloud.
and in each iteration ofrelease, it quickly throws out
all that came before.
But the only thing that remainsconstant throughout is the
people.
And you need the people to buildit.
You need the people to marketsell it.
You need the people to believethat by using the technology,
(03:09):
it'll benefit their business ortheir government.
Don Finley (03:12):
That is some great insights and you're absolutely
correct.
we tend to throw everything outevery 10 to 15 years in an
entire cycle.
I was working with, one of thefirst engineers of Skype and he
was in his early fifties at thetime and we were doing another
startup and he goes, I'mretiring after this cause just
(03:33):
that constant cycle.
of learning and innovation wasthere, but tell us about some of
the, your early career andadditionally, like the
experiences that made you intothe leader that you are today.
Like, where do you findinspiration in that, avenue?
Bill Sullivan (03:48):
my first experience with technology, I
went through a EDS had a salesdevelopment program, and I like
to joke that it was a Jesuiteducation and how to run a
business.
It was an outstandingexperience.
But my first experience withsoftware actually came when I
was at Sybase.
I was working for a gentleman bythe name of Patrick Arnone.
Now, Patrick had been a longterm Oracle executive and came
(04:10):
over to run public sector.
And that transitioned from avery buttoned down white shirt
or blue shirt, blue suitenvironment established by Ross
Perot to the, What was thenviewed as the Wild West of
software, was a big transition,but I found that I liked it.
I found that, there's a lot ofopportunity there.
Patrick taught me basically howto run a software business.
(04:34):
he, the imports and fieldoperations of marketing, channel
sales, consulting, and makingsure they all worked together.
And that's the critical thing isso oftentimes companies, They'll
be strong in one area or theother, or the leader in a
particular company is strong inone area or the other.
But I have found that, makingsure that each cylinder of that
(04:54):
four cylinder engine is firingcorrectly is the most important
aspect to being successful.
And then the leader is chargedwith.
Making them operate inconjunction with each other
correctly, given the life, wherethe business is, how mature the
business is.
the early business, you wantyour marketing team really
strong, building and generatingleads.
(05:16):
The mid tier business, you'vegot to be strong across all of
them.
and then the business at scale,you need a really strong sales
organization, a la Oracle oronce upon a time IBM.
so that's, I learned that andPatrick really took good care of
his people.
And that's the second thing thatreally, I learned there.
From there, I went to IBM,Tivoli IBM, and that was an
(05:36):
interesting experience because Ijoined Tivoli about six weeks
after IBM had acquired them.
And Tivoli at the time was aboutas wild a software organization
as you could hope to find,Managers were charged with
buying drinks for theiremployees on a Friday afternoon
at corporate headquarters inAustin, Texas.
(05:57):
They'd roll up.
Beer truck in there andeverybody would have happy hour
together on a Friday afternoon,bringing that into.
the IBM corporate environmentwas a little like bringing the
Visigoths into Rome.
And yet to their credit, IBMrealized that they needed that
the people, they needed thekiller attitude that would go
(06:19):
after this new client serverworld.
So I was charged with setting upa North American state and local
sales organization, and I hadencountered a couple of
challenges because thecommercial team had gone through
the IBM.
North American team for stateand local, like Sherman on the
way to the sea.
they just, they were verytransactional and IBM had these
(06:39):
30 year relationships with stategovernment.
So I hired a team.
I worked within both cultures.
Ultimately, we were verysuccessful.
The team, my second year therewas named, The number one team
in North America for Tivoli.
As a result of that, the companycame to me and said, the
commercial region, Southeastcommercial region has not yet
(07:00):
made their number in the lastyear.
would you be willing to take itover?
And I agreed.
It was about twice the size ofthe one I was running.
And so they said, okay, you'realso going to have to do a 10
percent cut back and restructureall the salespeople from
geographic coverage to, productline coverage.
so I figured that was going tobe.
in addition to challenges ofworking with IBM and Tivoli, it
was a fascinating challenge,but, I went into it thinking,
(07:22):
okay, this would be a
Don Finley (07:23):
when you're handed the challenge of basically,
going into a new organizationand then have the dictate that
you're basically going to changefrom geography to product line
sales, structure your first 30,60, 90 days?
Bill Sullivan (07:39):
that was a direct answer.
I have a.
Strategy that I use anytime I gointo any company and it's built
again on the four disciplines Ivery quickly analyze an
organization based upon how iseach one of those entities doing
and You know that way Sooftentimes I get brought in and
turnaround situation.
(08:00):
They say well sales isunderperforming Is sales getting
any lead from marketing?
Do we have any channelrelationships at all?
Are they generating anyopportunities for us?
only then can you determinewhether or not sales is
effective.
And that particular thing at,situation at Tivoli Southeast
Commercial, I worked closelywith the four managers I
inherited.
Each was outstanding and, eachagreed which segment of the
(08:23):
business they were going totake.
We stacked rank the salespeople.
We made sure that everybody hadsufficient opportunity in their
patch.
And, after coming through atough 10 percent cutback,
ultimately the organization, theend of that year, it was funny.
We started the fourth quarter atthe bottom of the stack, for
North America.
We did about 114 percent of theannual number in the fourth
(08:46):
quarter, and we finished atabout 174 percent of the, total
annual number, for the year, atthe end of the year, and
Southeast was then named thenumber one.
region in, IBM software group.
that's getting through it as ateam with the managers was, a
critical exercise, causing thesales people to see a plan that
(09:07):
they could believe in and thatthey could be successful with.
building credibility with thecompany that, yeah, this is all
going to come together in thefourth quarter.
it was, a multi phased,strategy, but it's one that to a
greater or lesser degree, I'verun a couple of times.
Don Finley (09:22):
And I know we're talking about technology, but a
lot of the challenges thatyou've brought up or a lot of
the accomplishments are donethrough the people that you led.
what would you say are your topphilosophies on like how you
lead organizations in thatcapacity?
Bill Sullivan (09:35):
Um, I wrote Bill's Rules.
And, there are about 20 rulesthat I didn't author all of
them.
If I borrowed them fromsomebody, I cite that
individual, but there are acouple that stand out that
people come back to me yearslater and say, Bill, that's so
true.
one of them is work with people,and trust, go hire them.
(09:58):
and it seems So simple and yetpeople, until you say it, you
put it in writing, they don'tthink it through.
And again, that's one that Ialways have people come back and
say, Bill, man, that is so truebecause 80 or 90 percent of
early stage software companiesfail, it's usually not because
the technology didn't work.
It's because they couldn't getthe business model down.
They couldn't get the peoplecommitted and executing.
(10:19):
Another one that I use, thenumber one rule is tell the
truth.
Tell me the truth.
And I say, it's not, tell youthe truth is something your mom
should tell you when you're akid, sales under the, there's a
first component of that is salesunderstands the problems.
I can't help you if I don'tunderstand the problems.
And this is important because wepay salespeople not to generate
(10:40):
revenue.
We pay salespeople to go into agovernment agency or into a
company and look at thestrategy, the structure, the
execution of that entity andfigure out how do we put our
technology into that environmentsuch that it will generate
revenue.
value to that end customer.
Okay.
So great salespeople can do thatin about four to six weeks in a
(11:02):
complex environment, they can dothat in about 20 minutes with
their own company.
And part of the reason mostcompanies don't get much better
than 60 percent effort orparticipation or alignment with
their people, particularlysalespeople, is because they
ignore everything that thesalespeople have to say.
And so I, I.
I flipped that on its head and Isay, let's fix our own company
(11:23):
first.
And when you come into thesesituations where you turn
around, the good salespeoplewill do a couple of things.
if they trust you and they likeyou, they'll tell you what are
the problems and.
If they're heard, they won'tleave simply because there's a
new boss.
Your best salespeople alwayshave a better option.
Your best coders always have abetter option.
As Bill McDermott said at SAP,people don't leave the company.
(11:46):
They leave their boss.
And that's one of Bill's rules.
and how you engage with peoplein that technology environment,
oftentimes high stress.
Oftentimes lots of pressure, butif you seek to pull the best out
of them based upon their job andtheir experience, they'll be
very loyal and they willoverachieve the sum of their
parts.
(12:06):
And that's.
Again, part of my magic, mysecret for being successful is
causing folks across anorganization to perform in
excess of the sum of theirparts.
Don Finley (12:17):
That's beautiful.
And I think it's, These rulesapply no matter how many times
we throw technology out, thereare core tenants of human
relationships and like how weactually operate that continue
to play through every iterationof a digital transformation that
we go through.
Bill Sullivan (12:32):
and mind you, they actually, I use them,
they're not directive.
I, the introduction just says,this is, these are designed to
build an environment in which weall want to work together.
Work with new people and trust,tell the truth.
there's another one Iparticularly enjoy.
it's relevant to, software.
there's a professor at Stanforduniversity that wrote first an
article and later a book thatsaid the no asshole.
(12:56):
and basically.
That's one of my rules.
the no asshole rule is always ineffect.
In other words, too many peoplelead with their ego.
Maybe they've made money.
Maybe they think they're thegreatest inventor since Tesla.
But you wonder why companiesfail.
It's because they don't followthat rule from the professor at
Stanford University.
Don Finley (13:14):
That is a fantastic role and I'm pretty sure that
there's a variation of that inour manifesto as well.
But on your know, and trust, theway that we've implemented that
is that we work with friends.
And so if I can only, if I canoffer friendship to you, whether
we've met once, we've met ahundred times, I want to show up
in a capacity of you are aperson that I love and care
(13:35):
about.
Bill Sullivan (13:36):
and that helps too when you, when, Everybody
has their tribe that they workedwith early in their technology
career.
Maybe it was Cisco, maybe it wasIBM, maybe it was EDS, maybe it
was, in my case, PeopleSoft,IBM, Tivoli.
and you build a reputation earlyon about who you are as a
result.
And you also, oscillate at thesame frequency with certain
(13:57):
people.
And those are the people thateither you work for, or they
come work for you or work withyou.
they'll, you'll reference themto bring them into your company,
just cause the company's goingto be better with them there.
and that's just so important.
Don Finley (14:08):
I love it.
So I know that we're on yourcareer journey.
but I want to give you somespace to, still express what
created the leader that you aretoday.
Bill Sullivan (14:19):
those were the formative years, the Tivoli IBM.
Don Finley (14:22):
Yeah.
Bill Sullivan (14:23):
FIndustries.
leader.
he was named CEO of the year bybusiness press back in 2000,
(14:43):
2001 or so.
and, It was a bit of aturnaround situation, but I did
that for about a year and aquarter, and then they promoted
me to be vice president of NorthAmerican State and Local.
And that was at the time, thelargest, application sales
organization in the publicsector for State and Local.
it was a great role.
We had just acquired J.
D.
Edwards.
I inherited a group of folksfrom the JD Edwards
(15:05):
organization.
And one week later, LarryEllison announced that he was
going to buy PeopleSoft, shut itdown, fire all the employees
and, cancel the code line.
it was an interesting time.
and that's probably a book untoitself.
it was one of the most.
antagonistic, hostile takeoveroffers, battles that we've seen
in industry.
(15:26):
I think it went on for about 15or 18 months.
I had a ringside seat on it.
We had, seven of my stategovernment customers joined the
Department of Justice antitrustsuit seeking to bar Oracle from
acquiring PeopleSoft.
we had another.
Customer file on their own stateof Connecticut.
and through it all, we had greatstability.
We continued to win deals inlarge measure, first because of
(15:48):
the quality of the product.
again, salespeople, fieldpeople, marketing.
We all forget that before we gotthere and became good looking
geniuses for years before us,there were some very talented
technologists that created thismagnificent software.
So it's important to rememberthat and have some humility
about it.
So the reason we were verysuccessful and the reason, Larry
(16:09):
wanted to buy the company, wasbecause it was outstanding
technology.
and secondly, it was a very wellrun company under Craig.
and third, one of the things Ireally liked about ERP is, is if
usual software sales is dating,ERP is marriage.
you're in it for the longterm.
It is, the implementations wouldtake a year or two years.
(16:33):
in a were so loyal to us was thequality of the organization that
we had facing them.
We had, it wasn't just softwarepeople.
We had accountants and we had HRprofessionals and each one had a
quota, but it But they approachthe job very differently.
and it's part of the reason Ireally so enjoyed my time at
(16:53):
PeopleSoft.
a quick story that illustratesthe point.
we had, I think at 1.
14 states on our technology, IAnd I'd know going into any
particular, finals presentationthat At least four or five of my
states were saying you'd bestupid to buy anything but
PeopleSoft.
And part of that also was, asVice President of North America,
(17:13):
we were doing payroll for a fewhundred thousand people, maybe a
million government employees.
And invariably, somewhere acrossthe country, the payroll system
would kick out a million dollarcheck to a teacher in Cedar
Rapids.
Okay?
Somebody changed something in atable, and those are the types
of things that are like localnews, front page.
(17:34):
So I'd get the call.
I was the one chartered withgetting the call and I never
rolled over on either, the CIOin the city, county, or state.
And I never rolled over on thepartner that was probably
running that system.
We may not have talked to thelocality in a year.
I just say, this is what we do.
We do it for a million folks andit's going to be corrected.
I'm glad that the system caughtit.
(17:54):
and, I never do that.
And so in public sector, that'sparticularly important because I
found people will help you out,These are folks that they don't
want to be in the newspaper.
If you're, you're a seniorgovernment person in Tallahassee
or Coeur d'Alene or Santa Fe,and you're the person that
screwed up the state payroll,man, you're not going to find
another job.
So having somebody that's notgoing to throw you under the bus
(18:17):
was a particularly valuablecomponent to their positive
references moving forward.
But I had a magnificent teamwith me.
I have hired many of them in theyears since.
and when you talk about theintersection of people and
technology, ERP is probably oneof the best studies.
Don Finley (18:34):
It's funny that you say that I spent a good part of
my time building ERP typesolutions.
And that was absolutely the casebecause we were, building from
the ground and then deployingand there's nothing about
software that you get right ahundred percent on the first
time.
And so having the relationshipsin order to.
rectify that to, to createcollaborative environments, to
(18:58):
ensure that people are gettingtheir needs met during that
process of figuring it all outis incredibly important.
And to showcase how well we didthat, 15 years ago was when I
had one client and now I sit onthe board of his company.
Bill Sullivan (19:12):
Wow.
Don Finley (19:13):
so yeah, it's a, a really strong relationship that
we developed over time.
And he's even trying to get meto go down to Argentina with him
next year to do carnival.
But
Bill Sullivan (19:23):
You should definitely go.
Don Finley (19:24):
thank you.
Thank
Bill Sullivan (19:26):
email back.
Thanks.
Dancing the tango.
Let me know when you're going.
Don Finley (19:31):
Okay.
I definitely will.
Bill, I think what an amazingcareer that you've had up to
this point, and you reallyshowcased how, you're leading
with integrity around, thepeople that you work with, the
telling the truth being one ofyour rules, and additionally
working with people that youknow, and trust.
where's the next part of thestory going?
Bill Sullivan (19:51):
when years went by.
I, ironically, I was justwrapping up a position.
I was at Savvy Technology,division of Lockheed Martin and
again, Craig Conway from,PeopleSoft, part of my tribe,
called and said, Informatica islooking for somebody to run
public sector.
Would you be interested in doingit?
And of course, when Craig calls,you take that call.
And I interviewed with PaulHoffman, then the president of
(20:13):
the company, and I was broughton board.
Informatica, first of all, firstand foremost, a fabulous
technology.
I used to say, you never have totake a shower at the end of the
day, having worked forInformatica.
They have tremendous technologyand particularly back then.
secondly, under Paul Hoffman,they had great culture.
I had not seen organizationswith salespeople that had been
there 12, 14 years.
(20:34):
he, it was just a, there wastrust there.
if you had a big deal, they'dquota you accordingly in the
beginning of the year, but ifthey felt that you had done
everything right, eh, maybethey'd trim the quote at the end
of the year and, and maybe youlike make a little money and you
didn't have to worry aboutwhether they were going to fire
you, even if you had been agreat rep the year before.
So as a result, they wereactually able to build an
(20:55):
organization that contained alot of collective knowledge on
both the technology, as well asthe market and their customer
set.
And again, way you build yourbrand and business to business
marketing is through the sumtotal of your contacts between
your sales force and yourprospects and customers.
Again, it's the people.
It's not have a Coke and asmile.
It's not, we try harder.
(21:16):
It's, how do you do?
I'm from Informatica or IBM andI'm here to help you with your
problem.
And that's how you build yourbrand.
Within the first eight months, Iwas designated a top 1 percent
critical employee.
after about a year and a half, Ibecame aware that the company
had been, submitting false repsand certs, to the U S federal
(21:38):
government.
So basically when you sell togovernment, you represent under
oath to the government that.
The prices you're giving themfor same or similar transactions
are, as good or better than whatyou're offering other customers
in the commercial market.
So that's called most favorednation pricing.
because you're dealing withtaxpayer money, companies have
(22:00):
to make an attestation underoath saying we're not going to
sell for anybody else at agreater discount than what we
are selling to the U.
S.
federal government.
And I became aware that thecompany was in fact violating
that provision.
I had at that point, the publicsector organization was growing
at about 38 percent CAGR,combined average annual growth
(22:22):
rate.
we had grown the organizationabout three or four X in terms
of the number of people as wellas the revenues.
and so I, took the issue to ourcorporate attorney, Paul Levy,
who had been with me atPeopleSoft.
and they wanted a good lawyer.
I said, go hire Paul Levy.
He's about the best softwaretransaction attorney out there.
Paul looked at the situation andsaid, you're right, Bill.
(22:44):
Bill's right.
He sent a note to the vicepresident of North America.
Um, Bill's right.
This is illegal.
Stop doing it.
Don Finley (22:50):
So this is nine months in, like around that time
Bill Sullivan (22:53):
would have been about a year and a
Don Finley (22:54):
about a year and a half
Bill Sullivan (22:55):
about a year and a half in.
Yeah, I had already beendesignated a top 1 percent
critical employee.
I would be designated again thesecond year a top 1 percent
critical employee, but it kickedoff a situation where it was
like a John Grisham novel.
I knew.
Based on being in the market for25 years, that what they were
doing was illegal.
It wasn't a gray zone.
(23:15):
it was the senior governmentofficer of the company.
I had the company's attorneysay, he's right.
This is illegal.
Six months later, he reviewed itagain.
He said, are you still doingthis?
Let me tell you all of the badthings that can happen.
Oracle just paid 180 millionfine.
CA just paid it, 50 or 60million fine.
Don't do this anymore.
And they continue to do it.
(23:35):
a couple of things happened in,over the time there at
Informatica, first Paul Hoffmanleft.
again, Paul was a fabulousleader.
He had the trust of people inthe company.
the CEO Sohey brought in a newleadership team.
and again, John McGee wasbrought in as the executive vice
president.
John's a superb leader, goodman.
but he was told to do the wrongthings, basically burn down all
(23:57):
the field organization.
So that's why the companystarted to struggle to make
money, to hit the number.
And I kept trying to say, guys,don't do this.
And after a long period, I justwent to the CEO, Sohaib, and I
simply said, Sohaib, you can runthe company any way you want.
I quit.
And he asked me to fly out andtalk to him.
And so we did.
And he asked me, he said, look,I need your help, Bill.
I need you to need your help tofix the company.
(24:19):
Would you give a presentation tothe executive staff on what you
feel is wrong with the company?
Because I agree with you.
And I said, okay.
I said, if I do that, however,Hey, I'm going to be the most
unpopular person in the companyand probably in the software
industry, but he said, no, Bill,I will protect you.
about six weeks later, I wentout, I brought one of my
(24:39):
managers, Jim Pruden, superbindividual.
And I think Kimberly Williamswas with me and I gave this
presentation and in the wake ofthat presentation, he moved John
McGee out of the company, movedmy boss down a level, brought in
a guy from Europe, Charles Race,to serve as executive vice
president of the company.
And I just went back to work.
(25:00):
About six months went by, weclosed the third quarter, had a
great third quarter.
flew up to New York and, Franksaid to me, Bill, I think we're
going to fire you.
And I said, really, Frank, whyis that?
He said, we don't think you'reon the team.
And, so Charles race is going tofly in from London and he's
probably going to fire you thisafternoon.
I said, okay, let's see whatCharles says.
So Charles comes in and startsdown the road of, I'm hearing
(25:22):
that you're not really committedto the company.
And I said, Charles, let me tellyou a story.
I actually went to Sohey.
Back in March and quit.
The reason you have your job isbecause I gave the presentation.
So they've asked me to give, andhe moved John out and he put you
in the job.
first to do that.
(25:44):
And now you're telling me youwant to fire me and you're
telling me I'm not committed tothe business.
They said, you don't havesomebody that's more committed
to this company than myself.
was immediately apologetic.
Neither he nor Frank had knownthat I had quit with Sohaib.
They had no idea how thatmeeting to the executive staff
came about that I had been askedto do it.
So I figured, okay, I'll go backand I'll go back to work.
(26:06):
So three months goes by andFrank comes into Washington at
the beginning of the next yearand says, we're going to let you
go.
And I said, wow, we're going todo this again, huh, Frank?
And I didn't even bother to callSohaib the last time.
So I called him.
I said, Sohaib, what happenedto, I will protect you.
And He said, Bill, I've beenhearing things.
And I said, so have you beenhearing things from people that
got demoted as a result of thepresentation you asked me to
(26:27):
give?
So the numbers don't justify it.
I'm still the fastest growingdivision in the company.
And he said, if you go quietly,we'll be generous.
Okay.
yeah.
So that's where this started toturn into a Grisham novel.
And I floated a severance planof, one year base salary, and
Pay my health care until I'mdone.
And now that was too expensive.
(26:47):
And that's when I said, okay,there's something up here.
and so I, I took the situationto a friend of mine, who's a
former U.
S.
attorney.
And he in turn referred it tolawyers at London and Meade who
handle these types of things.
And they came back in 24 hoursthat, we've got all the emails
saying this is illegal.
we'll take the case.
Not only that, we know thejustice department attorney that
(27:07):
handles these matter, we'llfloat it to them and see what
they want it.
And typically justice looks atsomething for four to six months
before they accept it.
I think they came back in twoweeks and said, we want this
case.
So a couple of things happened.
by that point I had started atanother company.
but my concern and the reason Ifelt I had to do this was, the
nature of a conspiracy.
(27:29):
If, something is wrong and youdon't call it, you're every bit
as guilty as the people thatactually do it.
so I knew all along that if thiswere to be revealed.
As head of public sector, thegovernment, justice department
attorneys or GSA would come lookat me, put my hand on a Bible
and say, Mr.
Sullivan, what did you know?
when did you know it?
And what did you do about it?
(27:51):
And, these were not stupidpeople.
The fact that they were, goingto try to, they did fire me.
In the wake of, letting themknow manifestly what their own
attorney told them was illegal.
I knew that this was an issue.
So justice department picked upthe case.
they put it under seal.
I became aware that the company.
(28:11):
was going to be taken private.
again, the wheels were comingoff.
one.
the attorneys and I said, look,they're going to go private.
So they, three, two thingshappened in quick succession.
the company issued a pressrelease saying, celebrating the
fact they're going to get takenby Primerica and some other
companies, Salesforce Ventures.
three days later, they said,we've been notified that we will
(28:32):
be, the subject of a justicedepartment investigation, but we
don't believe that it has anymerits.
Well, four years went by, itturns out it had merits.
Most of the complaint that wasfiled, reads exactly like the,
press release the JusticeDepartment issued four years
later.
And the Justice, DOJ also citedthe case as one of their top
(28:53):
wins for 2019.
it's not something, certainlynot something I wanted to do,
but again, if you're in thatconspiracy.
Don Finley (29:01):
yeah, and I was just gonna ask, because, you kinda
come to this decision, and wejust brushed over the idea that
like, there's a lot that goesinto that.
You're now going from being inInformatica in that internal
place of trying to address theproblem, cause you want to
rectify it, but then as soon asthey really turn coded on you,
(29:23):
Like your response was to go tothe lawyers, but there's a gap
in there that has to be ratherintense.
And it has to like bump againstyour character and like your
understanding of Who you are asa team player in one capacity.
And then additionally, yourresponsibility as like a, to
yourself and to your communityon the other.
(29:43):
and I'm just curious about whatthat experience was like,
Bill Sullivan (29:47):
when I was an undergraduate at William Mary, I
had a finance professor, Ibelieve his name was O'Connell,
who one time told the class, ifyou are ever an executive and
you don't know what to do,always act in the best interests
of the shareholder.
and, that has guided me throughso many weird, there's always
challenging situations thefurther you go up in management.
(30:09):
that was one of them.
And the other one that, thatguided me was it was just so
clearly illegal, I did not wantto go through life.
if I had accepted their offer toquote, go quietly and return for
a lot of money, I was aconspirator and I, I just was
not the way I want.
I didn't want to go through lifelooking over my shoulder.
and so those were the twoguiding principles I had when,
(30:33):
not only then, but many timesthrough my career.
Just there, there are oftentimesthat companies will act in a way
that is inethitable to theshareholder interest, but as an
executive and as a leader, youhave to do that first.
and actually, first you have toobey the law, honestly, this
wasn't a tough call, This wasn'ta gray zone.
This was just and as a publiclytraded.
(30:54):
As an executive with publiclytraded companies, I've been
through, legal training,everything from foreign corrupt
practices to antitrust to HR.
You name it many times.
(31:30):
critical employee ofInformatica.
I didn't go looking for alawsuit.
I, I risked my entire careertrying to help the then CEO fix
the company.
and that was my reward.
when you do that, your hand isforced.
Don Finley (31:43):
I'm seeing a lot of similarities in other stories
that I've read around likepeople who are faced with
adversity.
And this is, the John Smithhero's journey, Like you found
something, you faced adversityand you had to overcome it, but
it almost felt like it wasdestiny as well.
Like you were put into thissituation and I'm putting words
in your mouth in that regard.
this is what fate has broughtyou to.
(32:03):
And it's your choice to stand upin this moment and decide who
you are.
And you chose to be somebody whohas, the integrity to follow
through with your word, tosupport your community, to be
there for the shareholders, aswell.
And I'm using shareholders, notas the typical corporate
structure, but basically in yourcommunity and the shareholders
of the United States, as thatgoes.
Bill Sullivan (32:26):
I want to clear, I'm not Joan of Arc,
Don Finley (32:27):
no,
Bill Sullivan (32:28):
but, if I had friends that say, Hey, we're
going to go rob a bank.
Okay.
We just want you to drive thecar.
You don't have to get out of thecar.
You don't have to pick up a gun.
You don't have to grab anymoney.
You just need to drive the car.
if they go in, they shootsomebody in the bank.
Now I've got a murder onecharge.
Okay.
That's the nature of aconspiracy.
That's what they teach in lawschool.
And so you're either all in.
(32:50):
You were all out.
And I just knew I was all out.
I did not want any part of it.
again, I had originally gone toSo Haven Efforts to quit, and he
asked me not to do it, to stayand help him fix the company.
But, it is personal integrity,but it also no small degree of
fear.
'cause I don't wanna live mylife saying, yeah, gee, I hope
(33:10):
nobody ever finds out what I didor did not do at Informatica.
And I, at this don't have to.
Don Finley (33:17):
conscious is a strong driver.
Now, so we talked about theoutcome of the lawsuit as well.
how do you think this hasimpacted Informatica and have
they, come to be moretransparent or at least honoring
their favorite nation clauses?
Bill Sullivan (33:32):
yeah.
I have nothing negative to sayabout the Informatica
corporation.
at Denota, I've been competingwith Informatica for a few
years.
They have great technology.
They have great people.
Neil Chakravarthy was the CEO.
I can't remember the gentlemanthat took it now.
He was there when I was there.
These are good people, Thesewere decisions that were being
made by a very small coterie ofpeople that are no longer with
the company.
(33:52):
So I have no, antipathy towardsInformatica Corporation.
It's executives are employeestoday.
they got great stuff.
but how it has, affected me, Iwas fired from three of four
jobs I had after the lawsuit wasfiled.
And I've had people say, Oh,that kind of happens to
whistleblowers.
when you go into the case andthe justice department tells
(34:13):
you, Oh, you can't touch awhistleblower.
It's going to be great.
And that was a big deal becauseagain, I threw a hand grenade
into a 5.
3 billion dollar corporatetransaction.
And they were very concernedboth for my personal safety, as
well as, the, integrity of theircase.
my resume, which people can seeonline, was actually submitted
in a federal court filing underoath.
(34:35):
So if it was wrong, anything waswrong, that would have
undermined, so not many peoplecan say their resume has
survived a federal court,jurisdiction, review.
again, it speaks to theintegrity piece, but so you come
out of it and As I said, I wasfired from three of four
companies in the five yearsafter I left Informatica.
I won't walk through all ofthem, but, obviously at that
(34:56):
point, I realized there, therewas something up.
I remember at one company, I hada great performance.
I've been there 10 months, 300percent same quarter year over
year growth, I had built a salesorganization.
The president came in on aThursday afternoon and said,
Bill, it's just not working.
And I said, Bob, it's nevergoing to get better, but
employment will stay, they canfire you for anything you want.
(35:16):
I was at Cloudera and, took themsuccessfully through the IPO.
three days after the optionsunlocked, my boss, flew into
town and said, we're going tohave to let you go.
And I don't typically get angryby.
Principle, and I wasn't angrywith my boss.
Ken Schock is still a goodfriend.
he didn't even know why he wasfiring me, if I'd be honest.
Neither do I think to Tom Rileyor the gentleman that was
(35:38):
running North American sales,who's a great North American
sales leader, but the companyknew that my mother was in the
intensive care unit, she wouldgo on to die about four days
later.
So they flew into town, fired meand went back up to the hospital
and dealt with that.
fortunately, my old friend,David Levy called and, asked me
to set up division at AWS forhim.
and that went on to, I built ateam of 25, some odd people
(36:02):
focused on the top 25 federalsystems integrators, that was
the fastest growing organizationworldwide for AWS.
last year I was there, receivedan award for that.
but then, it was interesting.
I went to in for, I lovedworking for David.
AWS has its challenges.
I had a couple of specificchallenges.
(36:22):
Charles Phillips, who was theCEO of Infor at the time, who
had also been the president ofOracle when I did the
integration of PeopleSoft publicsector into Oracle, called me
and said, Hey, I've got a 300million business.
Hasn't made the number in ayear.
Can you come?
I really need you.
And I said, nobody leaves AWSCharles.
Thank you.
And he said, no, I really needyou.
(36:42):
And a good friend of mine wasretiring from that spot.
And it wasn't just the money,but obviously the third effort,
they made a great run at me andI went over, and I had.
Five of the regional vicepresidents working for me had
worked for me at PeopleSoft.
So again, work with people, andtrust.
I'd say 50 percent of theorganization had been on my team
at PeopleSoft.
So I'm there about five monthsand, the senior vice president
(37:03):
of public sector.
About 30 percent of the company.
is the first time the publicsector had made its number in a
year.
That first full quarter I wasthere, I get fired again.
much.
Yep.
(37:48):
I said, ask these people, whatdo they think about Bill
Sullivan?
And a lot of them are friendsand percent of them came back
saying greatest guy.
You should hire him.
even the head of HR in an Ovalon Patty.
God love her.
Thank you, Patty.
she said, Bill Sullivan's agreat leader.
You should hire him.
but Abbasi and Race came backand said, Sullivan had set up
the situation at Informatica.
(38:11):
And that he had profited as aresult of his setting it up and
they didn't trust me andwouldn't recommend my being
hired and had been telling manypeople that exact story.
And I sent you some of thereport from that investigation
firm, which attests to exactlywhat it was.
despite having a recognitionthat the behavior predated my
(38:33):
tenure at Informatica by twoyears, despite having the
internal lawyer telling themthat it was illegal and
Sullivan's right, don't do it.
They were then representing tothe market that, I had set the
whole thing up, which wasfantastical anyway, because I
wouldn't, then had no way ofdetermining what were the
Commercial sales levels ofInformatica.
retained that same lawyer, readyto for a lawsuit, found that,
(38:55):
unless you can, prove thatsomebody didn't hire you.
Or, fired you as a result ofwhat they said, you, it's hard
to claim damages.
So I could spend a quartermillion dollars on a lawsuit,
come up with a 1 jury verdict.
I won, I was defamed, but no wayto prove it.
it didn't seem like a decliningreturn.
A year went by, I became awarethat they were speaking with my
(39:17):
then CEO.
At Denodo saying the samethings, I ran the whole test
again.
Of course, I use the same groupa second time.
They, by this point, they knewwhat was going on the first
time.
Everybody thought I was paranoidand weird, but they were willing
to take my money.
The second time they were onside, same results, but again,
not able to.
prove that somebody, nobody'swilling to go on a record and
(39:39):
said, yeah, I spoke with SoheilBilbassy or Charles Race and I
fired Bill Sullivan as a result.
but both gentlemen confirmedthat, they'd been saying this
to, different people in themarket, including my then
current CEO at Denodo, CharlesRace even went so far as to say
he chuckled and said, I hopeBill, made a lot of money
because he's not going to workin this industry again.
Don Finley (39:57):
Wow.
Wow.
Bill Sullivan (39:58):
Yeah.
So that, people wonder why I'vemoved a lot over the last five
years.
It's because that's what wasgoing on.
and so that's part of the reasonI've come forward now.
fortunately, through friends,I've retained another attorney,
former U.
S.
Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.
has stepped into the case and hesent both individuals a letter
saying, we know what you'redoing.
(40:18):
the practices predated Mr.
Sullivan's tenure by two years.
if it doesn't stop, we will be,acting affirmatively in Mr.
Sullivan's interest.
I'm again, at that situationwhere, Is it worth it to spend a
quarter million dollars deposinghalf of Silicon Valley in order
to win a 1 judgment?
And so part of the reason I'mcoming forward now is just to
(40:39):
simply say, Hey, here's the factset, here's what happened at
Informatica.
I've got all the emails.
I am going to be putting them ina book, and let people decide
for themselves because, for mostpeople being the number one vice
president at IBM or PeopleSoftInformatica would be a career
making thing, but I've done allof them, repeatedly throughout.
(41:00):
and the idea that I, I'veinterviewed with over 25
companies, not been able to findA.
job and they all followed thatsame track where, I do four or
five interviews, do the paneldiscussion.
Bill, we love you.
you've run sales forces atscale, P& L up to 300 million.
You've run a team of lobbyists,DC, the national market, and
(41:20):
then a few weeks goes by andthey say, we're going to hire
Bob down in Tallahassee becausehe used to work with our EVP.
I'm tired of that game.
And so now's an opportunity forme to tell my story.
Don Finley (41:30):
and I'm glad that you're finally coming out and
telling the story because Ithink there's two sides of this,
as far as the impact that thishas.
One, it's not right for you topoint out something that needs
to be corrected.
Get sidelined at the one companyand then to go and do what
objectively is the right thingof, blowing the whistle and then
(41:52):
going through that process,which I believe was a four year
process as well to be able toget, holding people accountable
for what agreements they have inplace and additionally to
follow.
what are the lessons that youwould take out of this for
others to, to embody if they'rein a similar situation, like how
would you hope that otherpeople, are able to compose
(42:13):
themselves in these matters?
Bill Sullivan (42:15):
this area of the law is actually increasing, in
interest because, there's a lotof this and I think in the
coming weeks and months, there'sgoing to be a lot of folks
coming out with testimony aboutwhat the government did or did
not do right.
Nothing, not companies, butgovernment, maybe some of the
companies as well.
I wholeheartedly encourage.
the Justice Department to,ensure that, to take a better
(42:36):
stance at protecting theirwhistleblowers.
that's gonna have to becritical.
and I'm tell also telling thestory just to highlight the ob,
the risks of being awhistleblower, it, whether
you're in government or you'rein industry, it's a risky thing.
and again, part of my story andtelling it, I think it was,
transportation secretary,Raymond Donovan was charged with
federal crimes.
He famously just found notguilty.
(42:56):
He went out in the front courts,the front steps of the
courthouse.
And he said, that's great.
Now, where do I reclaim myreputation?
And that's one of the lessonslearned is sometimes you have to
fight back to reclaim yourreputation, and that may be, the
situation with otherwhistleblowers coming forward.
So it's been a, it's been along, there's been there, and
again, there's, you were right.
You touched on that four yearperiod.
(43:17):
you talking about the personalside of things, my wife did not
know.
anything about this case thatwas going on.
My closest friends did not knowanything about this case that
was going on.
my priest and my bartenderdidn't know what was going on
with the case.
Now, fortunately, I've got someexperience, keeping secrets.
but I took steps to protect myfamily.
But of course, since I couldn'ttell them why I was doing that,
(43:38):
they all thought I was crazy.
you throw a hand
Don Finley (43:40):
of those things that you shared in the first
conversation we had that justblew my mind because it's an
intensely stressful situationthat you're going through, Like
your reputation is on the line.
you're doing the right thing.
And at the same time, you'refacing a lot of adversity
through it.
And so all of your supportsystems that you've built up
(44:01):
over the years, the closepersonal relationships, and
especially your spouse, notbeing able to share that with
them just adds to the pressureof this.
And so I could only imagine thecraziness that they thought you
were going through.
Bill Sullivan (44:16):
Oh yeah.
and again, on my LinkedIn page,I do a lot of open water
swimming.
is he a drug addict?
Is he a drunk?
Why?
Why is he changing jobs sofrequently?
no.
He's pretty healthy and hiscredit rating's above 800 and,
he has still has the same wifeand doesn't have a Porsche
collection and doesn't do nosecandy.
But that is what has been goingon and it's, it has been taxing,
but, I think it's with this, mycoming forward now, I think not
(44:39):
only will it hopefully clearsome of the questions about my
character, my career, mybackground, but also help some
additional, Whistleblowers tohave some courage and to
recognize these are thepitfalls, but you really have to
do it.
Don Finley (44:54):
Yeah.
We've touched a bit on how yourlife's changed since leaving
Informatica and blowing thewhistle.
and also, what others arelooking to take similar stands.
Where's the future for you?
Bill Sullivan (45:04):
there's a few things I'm speaking with a few
companies now, we'll see howthey react to this discussion.
But, I have started to tellpeople during the course of,
interviews, look, this issomething that happened and this
is what's going on.
So this shouldn't be a surpriseto anybody.
It's funny, an acquaintance ofmine was just elected the, the
GOP governor of the state ofWest Virginia.
and West Virginia had his headpushed under water economically
(45:27):
by previous administrations.
I sent him a note.
I would love to go be the drugczar for the state of West
Virginia.
That's a public policy thingthat I would love to engage on.
they're great people out there.
It's one of our country's mostbeautiful states.
They've been treated abysmally.
in order to extract the energyfrom West Virginia, that is
(45:47):
beautiful.
they're going to have to getthat under control.
percent of kids under the age of18 are being raised by their
grandparents as a result of theopiate addiction in their, in
families out there.
So it's a really bad problem.
I may go back and run a publicsector group for a company.
I may go into government in someform or fashion.
I'll continue to do the things Ilove to do.
Ride the Ducati and open waterswim.
(46:08):
And, I've got a whole host offriends.
They don't realize how much theykeep me sane.
I've got a lot of friends.
I can look them in the eyes andsay, Hey man, I love you.
And they love me.
And, they don't know the wholebackdrop behind what was been
going on in my life.
Most of them are going to besurprised by this interview.
but, I meant it when I tellthem.
and, moving forward, I do hopeto find some answers to some
questions.
it, why did the government,stretch this out for four years?
(46:30):
They were, just a successfulcase.
They highlighted it in the yearend.
why did they dive at the 11thhour from a 60 to$80 million
fine, down to$21 million fine.
that was a shock to myattorneys, as well.
and the other thing that'sinteresting is.
None of the informaticaexecutives that have since been.
defaming me, have ever been heldpersonally accountable.
(46:53):
Now, again, Martha Stewart wentto jail over for 14 months or
four months at a federal prison,over a 224, 000 stock trade.
these executives materiallymisrepresented hundreds or
millions, tens of millions ofdollars in a publicly traded
company.
Company paid a 21 million dollarfine and everybody else skated
free.
(47:13):
So how did that happen?
so there's, there are still someopen questions in front of us
that, I believe people arelooking at, but, we'll see.
Don Finley (47:22):
that's fantastic.
more just in general, I knowwe've been talking about your
story.
what advice would you give?
What advice would you have forpeople who are just in general,
you have such a diverse careerand strong leadership skills
that I do want to touch on likeyou as that person who builds
organizations and changes of theworld in that capacity, like
(47:42):
what bit of inspiration couldyou leave us with?
Bill Sullivan (47:45):
do it just for the money.
Okay.
Technology, when I first gotinto it, it was fun.
Sybase was great.
Some college professorsintroduced some great
technology.
Back then, technology was theprovince of the pocket
calculator crowd and WallStreet, they weren't that
interested.
When you look at it now andseven companies, technology
companies are powering themarket, the dynamic has flipped
(48:08):
and that really has not been tothe benefit.
arguable whether or not it'sbeen the benefit of the industry
or not.
But yeah, we have a 90 percentfailure rate in companies simply
because they got dollar billsigns in our eyes and the best
technology doesn't win.
The best execution wins.
Don't lose sight of the fact youneed to have people around you
(48:28):
that can bring your great ideato market and scale it.
And either take it public orsell it.
everybody wants to be LarryEllison.
There's only one Larry Ellison.
You're not it.
Okay.
And so that's the first thing.
The second thing is torecognize, and this is very
humbling in the technologyindustry, You don't know
everything.
The people that are, can learnfast do best, again, if you knew
(48:51):
everything about mainframes,that was almost a hindrance when
client server hit, people thatare working in the cloud, they
look back on the internet andsay, yeah, isn't that cute.
I will tell you there's going tobe something after the cloud.
It'll probably be theintersection of AI and quantum
computing, and it's not going tobe wearable devices.
It's going to be, I'm notentirely sure what it is.
I'm not a futurist.
(49:12):
I'm much more of an executioner.
I And learn quickly.
And then finally, just, don'tlose your sense of self, it, you
can get into situations.
Like I say, tell the truth,first rule of bills rules,
(49:33):
particularly in public sector,people can do bad things and get
everybody into trouble.
tell the truth first andforemost to yourself and also to
the, to, to the bigger, thebroader world.
Don Finley (49:43):
I think at some point we may want to have you
back on to go over your rules.
Bill Sullivan (49:47):
Okay.
Don Finley (49:48):
Let's like, let's hold that for a future show, but
I
Bill Sullivan (49:50):
I would be honored.
Don Finley (49:52):
Bill, once again, thank you so much for spending
the time today to talk to us.
I like, really appreciate this,and you've been such a good
person to get to know over thelast few weeks and months, but
additionally, I love your storyand I'm really excited to be a
part of this chapter.
and speaking of chapters, we'regoing to put a link to your book
in the description.
(50:13):
So if anybody's interested indiving deeper into this story,
they'll know where to get yourbook at.
Bill Sullivan (50:18):
Don, I'm grateful for your having me on the show.
I've watched a number of yourepisodes.
as I said, before we started, Ithink you and I have good
simpatico and I appreciate yourkindness and your welcoming me
onto your program.
Don Finley (50:29):
Not a problem, my friend.
Thank you for tuning into TheHuman Code, sponsored by
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By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
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(50:50):
Explore how at FINdustries.
co.
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:43):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
Our guest today is billSullivan.
A leader whose careerexemplifies the intersection of
humanity and technology.
with decades of experiencesteering transformative change,
in some of the most admiredtechnology companies.
Bill has a unique perspective ondriving growth, fostering
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innovation and building teamswith integrity.
From pivotal roles at Oracle IBMand AWS.
To being at the helm of aremarkable turnarounds and
strategic initiatives.
Bill's story is one ofresilience, vision and steadfast
commitment to ethics.
In this episode, we exploreBill's experience navigating
complex businesstransformations, the principles
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that shaped his leadershipphilosophy and his thoughts on
the evolving relationshipbetween people and technology.
Join us as we uncover thelessons learned from a career
built on trust, truth, andimpact.
I'm here with my friend BillSullivan, and I gotta say Bill,
thank you so much for being onthe show today.
It's absolutely an honor to haveyou on.
(01:47):
you have such an interestingstory to tell, and it is really
in line with how our humanityintersects with technology
throughout the entire thing.
but I really just want to startthis off with what got you
interested in the intersectionof humanity and technology?
Bill Sullivan (02:04):
Don, first, thanks so much for having me on
You and I have spoken one timebefore and I really enjoyed your
approach.
What really got me interested inpeering and talking about my
experience is precisely thatpoint.
I've been around working intechnology since the mainframe
era and I Can tell you that thebest technology does not always
win.
The best execution wins.
(02:26):
And for good execution, you needtwo things, good leadership and
good people.
And throughout my career, I'vebeen fortunate to lead some
great teams.
And as a result, I've got someunique introspections on that.
others in that, lawyers don'ttake the body of Bankruptcy law
and throw it out the windowevery 12 to 15 years, in the
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time that I've been here We'veseen us go from mainframe to
client server, to the internet,to the cloud.
and in each iteration ofrelease, it quickly throws out
all that came before.
But the only thing that remainsconstant throughout is the
people.
And you need the people to buildit.
You need the people to marketsell it.
You need the people to believethat by using the technology,
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it'll benefit their business ortheir government.
Don Finley (03:12):
That is some great insights and you're absolutely
correct.
we tend to throw everything outevery 10 to 15 years in an
entire cycle.
I was working with, one of thefirst engineers of Skype and he
was in his early fifties at thetime and we were doing another
startup and he goes, I'mretiring after this cause just
(03:33):
that constant cycle.
of learning and innovation wasthere, but tell us about some of
the, your early career andadditionally, like the
experiences that made you intothe leader that you are today.
Like, where do you findinspiration in that, avenue?
Bill Sullivan (03:48):
my first experience with technology, I
went through a EDS had a salesdevelopment program, and I like
to joke that it was a Jesuiteducation and how to run a
business.
It was an outstandingexperience.
But my first experience withsoftware actually came when I
was at Sybase.
I was working for a gentleman bythe name of Patrick Arnone.
Now, Patrick had been a longterm Oracle executive and came
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over to run public sector.
And that transitioned from avery buttoned down white shirt
or blue shirt, blue suitenvironment established by Ross
Perot to the, What was thenviewed as the Wild West of
software, was a big transition,but I found that I liked it.
I found that, there's a lot ofopportunity there.
Patrick taught me basically howto run a software business.
(04:34):
he, the imports and fieldoperations of marketing, channel
sales, consulting, and makingsure they all worked together.
And that's the critical thing isso oftentimes companies, They'll
be strong in one area or theother, or the leader in a
particular company is strong inone area or the other.
But I have found that, makingsure that each cylinder of that
(04:54):
four cylinder engine is firingcorrectly is the most important
aspect to being successful.
And then the leader is chargedwith.
Making them operate inconjunction with each other
correctly, given the life, wherethe business is, how mature the
business is.
the early business, you wantyour marketing team really
strong, building and generatingleads.
(05:16):
The mid tier business, you'vegot to be strong across all of
them.
and then the business at scale,you need a really strong sales
organization, a la Oracle oronce upon a time IBM.
so that's, I learned that andPatrick really took good care of
his people.
And that's the second thing thatreally, I learned there.
From there, I went to IBM,Tivoli IBM, and that was an
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interesting experience because Ijoined Tivoli about six weeks
after IBM had acquired them.
And Tivoli at the time was aboutas wild a software organization
as you could hope to find,Managers were charged with
buying drinks for theiremployees on a Friday afternoon
at corporate headquarters inAustin, Texas.
(05:57):
They'd roll up.
Beer truck in there andeverybody would have happy hour
together on a Friday afternoon,bringing that into.
the IBM corporate environmentwas a little like bringing the
Visigoths into Rome.
And yet to their credit, IBMrealized that they needed that
the people, they needed thekiller attitude that would go
(06:19):
after this new client serverworld.
So I was charged with setting upa North American state and local
sales organization, and I hadencountered a couple of
challenges because thecommercial team had gone through
the IBM.
North American team for stateand local, like Sherman on the
way to the sea.
they just, they were verytransactional and IBM had these
(06:39):
30 year relationships with stategovernment.
So I hired a team.
I worked within both cultures.
Ultimately, we were verysuccessful.
The team, my second year therewas named, The number one team
in North America for Tivoli.
As a result of that, the companycame to me and said, the
commercial region, Southeastcommercial region has not yet
(07:00):
made their number in the lastyear.
would you be willing to take itover?
And I agreed.
It was about twice the size ofthe one I was running.
And so they said, okay, you'realso going to have to do a 10
percent cut back and restructureall the salespeople from
geographic coverage to, productline coverage.
so I figured that was going tobe.
in addition to challenges ofworking with IBM and Tivoli, it
was a fascinating challenge,but, I went into it thinking,
(07:22):
okay, this would be a
Don Finley (07:23):
when you're handed the challenge of basically,
going into a new organizationand then have the dictate that
you're basically going to changefrom geography to product line
sales, structure your first 30,60, 90 days?
Bill Sullivan (07:39):
that was a direct answer.
I have a.
Strategy that I use anytime I gointo any company and it's built
again on the four disciplines Ivery quickly analyze an
organization based upon how iseach one of those entities doing
and You know that way Sooftentimes I get brought in and
turnaround situation.
(08:00):
They say well sales isunderperforming Is sales getting
any lead from marketing?
Do we have any channelrelationships at all?
Are they generating anyopportunities for us?
only then can you determinewhether or not sales is
effective.
And that particular thing at,situation at Tivoli Southeast
Commercial, I worked closelywith the four managers I
inherited.
Each was outstanding and, eachagreed which segment of the
(08:23):
business they were going totake.
We stacked rank the salespeople.
We made sure that everybody hadsufficient opportunity in their
patch.
And, after coming through atough 10 percent cutback,
ultimately the organization, theend of that year, it was funny.
We started the fourth quarter atthe bottom of the stack, for
North America.
We did about 114 percent of theannual number in the fourth
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quarter, and we finished atabout 174 percent of the, total
annual number, for the year, atthe end of the year, and
Southeast was then named thenumber one.
region in, IBM software group.
that's getting through it as ateam with the managers was, a
critical exercise, causing thesales people to see a plan that
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they could believe in and thatthey could be successful with.
building credibility with thecompany that, yeah, this is all
going to come together in thefourth quarter.
it was, a multi phased,strategy, but it's one that to a
greater or lesser degree, I'verun a couple of times.
Don Finley (09:22):
And I know we're talking about technology, but a
lot of the challenges thatyou've brought up or a lot of
the accomplishments are donethrough the people that you led.
what would you say are your topphilosophies on like how you
lead organizations in thatcapacity?
Bill Sullivan (09:35):
Um, I wrote Bill's Rules.
And, there are about 20 rulesthat I didn't author all of
them.
If I borrowed them fromsomebody, I cite that
individual, but there are acouple that stand out that
people come back to me yearslater and say, Bill, that's so
true.
one of them is work with people,and trust, go hire them.
(09:58):
and it seems So simple and yetpeople, until you say it, you
put it in writing, they don'tthink it through.
And again, that's one that Ialways have people come back and
say, Bill, man, that is so truebecause 80 or 90 percent of
early stage software companiesfail, it's usually not because
the technology didn't work.
It's because they couldn't getthe business model down.
They couldn't get the peoplecommitted and executing.
(10:19):
Another one that I use, thenumber one rule is tell the
truth.
Tell me the truth.
And I say, it's not, tell youthe truth is something your mom
should tell you when you're akid, sales under the, there's a
first component of that is salesunderstands the problems.
I can't help you if I don'tunderstand the problems.
And this is important because wepay salespeople not to generate
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revenue.
We pay salespeople to go into agovernment agency or into a
company and look at thestrategy, the structure, the
execution of that entity andfigure out how do we put our
technology into that environmentsuch that it will generate
revenue.
value to that end customer.
Okay.
So great salespeople can do thatin about four to six weeks in a
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complex environment, they can dothat in about 20 minutes with
their own company.
And part of the reason mostcompanies don't get much better
than 60 percent effort orparticipation or alignment with
their people, particularlysalespeople, is because they
ignore everything that thesalespeople have to say.
And so I, I.
I flipped that on its head and Isay, let's fix our own company
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first.
And when you come into thesesituations where you turn
around, the good salespeoplewill do a couple of things.
if they trust you and they likeyou, they'll tell you what are
the problems and.
If they're heard, they won'tleave simply because there's a
new boss.
Your best salespeople alwayshave a better option.
Your best coders always have abetter option.
As Bill McDermott said at SAP,people don't leave the company.
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They leave their boss.
And that's one of Bill's rules.
and how you engage with peoplein that technology environment,
oftentimes high stress.
Oftentimes lots of pressure, butif you seek to pull the best out
of them based upon their job andtheir experience, they'll be
very loyal and they willoverachieve the sum of their
parts.
(12:06):
And that's.
Again, part of my magic, mysecret for being successful is
causing folks across anorganization to perform in
excess of the sum of theirparts.
Don Finley (12:17):
That's beautiful.
And I think it's, These rulesapply no matter how many times
we throw technology out, thereare core tenants of human
relationships and like how weactually operate that continue
to play through every iterationof a digital transformation that
we go through.
Bill Sullivan (12:32):
and mind you, they actually, I use them,
they're not directive.
I, the introduction just says,this is, these are designed to
build an environment in which weall want to work together.
Work with new people and trust,tell the truth.
there's another one Iparticularly enjoy.
it's relevant to, software.
there's a professor at Stanforduniversity that wrote first an
article and later a book thatsaid the no asshole.
(12:56):
and basically.
That's one of my rules.
the no asshole rule is always ineffect.
In other words, too many peoplelead with their ego.
Maybe they've made money.
Maybe they think they're thegreatest inventor since Tesla.
But you wonder why companiesfail.
It's because they don't followthat rule from the professor at
Stanford University.
Don Finley (13:14):
That is a fantastic role and I'm pretty sure that
there's a variation of that inour manifesto as well.
But on your know, and trust, theway that we've implemented that
is that we work with friends.
And so if I can only, if I canoffer friendship to you, whether
we've met once, we've met ahundred times, I want to show up
in a capacity of you are aperson that I love and care
(13:35):
about.
Bill Sullivan (13:36):
and that helps too when you, when, Everybody
has their tribe that they workedwith early in their technology
career.
Maybe it was Cisco, maybe it wasIBM, maybe it was EDS, maybe it
was, in my case, PeopleSoft,IBM, Tivoli.
and you build a reputation earlyon about who you are as a
result.
And you also, oscillate at thesame frequency with certain
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people.
And those are the people thateither you work for, or they
come work for you or work withyou.
they'll, you'll reference themto bring them into your company,
just cause the company's goingto be better with them there.
and that's just so important.
Don Finley (14:08):
I love it.
So I know that we're on yourcareer journey.
but I want to give you somespace to, still express what
created the leader that you aretoday.
Bill Sullivan (14:19):
those were the formative years, the Tivoli IBM.
Don Finley (14:22):
Yeah.
Bill Sullivan (14:23):
FIndustries.
leader.
he was named CEO of the year bybusiness press back in 2000,
(14:43):
2001 or so.
and, It was a bit of aturnaround situation, but I did
that for about a year and aquarter, and then they promoted
me to be vice president of NorthAmerican State and Local.
And that was at the time, thelargest, application sales
organization in the publicsector for State and Local.
it was a great role.
We had just acquired J.
D.
Edwards.
I inherited a group of folksfrom the JD Edwards
(15:05):
organization.
And one week later, LarryEllison announced that he was
going to buy PeopleSoft, shut itdown, fire all the employees
and, cancel the code line.
it was an interesting time.
and that's probably a book untoitself.
it was one of the most.
antagonistic, hostile takeoveroffers, battles that we've seen
in industry.
(15:26):
I think it went on for about 15or 18 months.
I had a ringside seat on it.
We had, seven of my stategovernment customers joined the
Department of Justice antitrustsuit seeking to bar Oracle from
acquiring PeopleSoft.
we had another.
Customer file on their own stateof Connecticut.
and through it all, we had greatstability.
We continued to win deals inlarge measure, first because of
(15:48):
the quality of the product.
again, salespeople, fieldpeople, marketing.
We all forget that before we gotthere and became good looking
geniuses for years before us,there were some very talented
technologists that created thismagnificent software.
So it's important to rememberthat and have some humility
about it.
So the reason we were verysuccessful and the reason, Larry
(16:09):
wanted to buy the company, wasbecause it was outstanding
technology.
and secondly, it was a very wellrun company under Craig.
and third, one of the things Ireally liked about ERP is, is if
usual software sales is dating,ERP is marriage.
you're in it for the longterm.
It is, the implementations wouldtake a year or two years.
(16:33):
in a were so loyal to us was thequality of the organization that
we had facing them.
We had, it wasn't just softwarepeople.
We had accountants and we had HRprofessionals and each one had a
quota, but it But they approachthe job very differently.
and it's part of the reason Ireally so enjoyed my time at
(16:53):
PeopleSoft.
a quick story that illustratesthe point.
we had, I think at 1.
14 states on our technology, IAnd I'd know going into any
particular, finals presentationthat At least four or five of my
states were saying you'd bestupid to buy anything but
PeopleSoft.
And part of that also was, asVice President of North America,
(17:13):
we were doing payroll for a fewhundred thousand people, maybe a
million government employees.
And invariably, somewhere acrossthe country, the payroll system
would kick out a million dollarcheck to a teacher in Cedar
Rapids.
Okay?
Somebody changed something in atable, and those are the types
of things that are like localnews, front page.
(17:34):
So I'd get the call.
I was the one chartered withgetting the call and I never
rolled over on either, the CIOin the city, county, or state.
And I never rolled over on thepartner that was probably
running that system.
We may not have talked to thelocality in a year.
I just say, this is what we do.
We do it for a million folks andit's going to be corrected.
I'm glad that the system caughtit.
(17:54):
and, I never do that.
And so in public sector, that'sparticularly important because I
found people will help you out,These are folks that they don't
want to be in the newspaper.
If you're, you're a seniorgovernment person in Tallahassee
or Coeur d'Alene or Santa Fe,and you're the person that
screwed up the state payroll,man, you're not going to find
another job.
So having somebody that's notgoing to throw you under the bus
(18:17):
was a particularly valuablecomponent to their positive
references moving forward.
But I had a magnificent teamwith me.
I have hired many of them in theyears since.
and when you talk about theintersection of people and
technology, ERP is probably oneof the best studies.
Don Finley (18:34):
It's funny that you say that I spent a good part of
my time building ERP typesolutions.
And that was absolutely the casebecause we were, building from
the ground and then deployingand there's nothing about
software that you get right ahundred percent on the first
time.
And so having the relationshipsin order to.
rectify that to, to createcollaborative environments, to
(18:58):
ensure that people are gettingtheir needs met during that
process of figuring it all outis incredibly important.
And to showcase how well we didthat, 15 years ago was when I
had one client and now I sit onthe board of his company.
Bill Sullivan (19:12):
Wow.
Don Finley (19:13):
so yeah, it's a, a really strong relationship that
we developed over time.
And he's even trying to get meto go down to Argentina with him
next year to do carnival.
But
Bill Sullivan (19:23):
You should definitely go.
Don Finley (19:24):
thank you.
Thank
Bill Sullivan (19:26):
email back.
Thanks.
Dancing the tango.
Let me know when you're going.
Don Finley (19:31):
Okay.
I definitely will.
Bill, I think what an amazingcareer that you've had up to
this point, and you reallyshowcased how, you're leading
with integrity around, thepeople that you work with, the
telling the truth being one ofyour rules, and additionally
working with people that youknow, and trust.
where's the next part of thestory going?
Bill Sullivan (19:51):
when years went by.
I, ironically, I was justwrapping up a position.
I was at Savvy Technology,division of Lockheed Martin and
again, Craig Conway from,PeopleSoft, part of my tribe,
called and said, Informatica islooking for somebody to run
public sector.
Would you be interested in doingit?
And of course, when Craig calls,you take that call.
And I interviewed with PaulHoffman, then the president of
(20:13):
the company, and I was broughton board.
Informatica, first of all, firstand foremost, a fabulous
technology.
I used to say, you never have totake a shower at the end of the
day, having worked forInformatica.
They have tremendous technologyand particularly back then.
secondly, under Paul Hoffman,they had great culture.
I had not seen organizationswith salespeople that had been
there 12, 14 years.
(20:34):
he, it was just a, there wastrust there.
if you had a big deal, they'dquota you accordingly in the
beginning of the year, but ifthey felt that you had done
everything right, eh, maybethey'd trim the quote at the end
of the year and, and maybe youlike make a little money and you
didn't have to worry aboutwhether they were going to fire
you, even if you had been agreat rep the year before.
So as a result, they wereactually able to build an
(20:55):
organization that contained alot of collective knowledge on
both the technology, as well asthe market and their customer
set.
And again, way you build yourbrand and business to business
marketing is through the sumtotal of your contacts between
your sales force and yourprospects and customers.
Again, it's the people.
It's not have a Coke and asmile.
It's not, we try harder.
(21:16):
It's, how do you do?
I'm from Informatica or IBM andI'm here to help you with your
problem.
And that's how you build yourbrand.
Within the first eight months, Iwas designated a top 1 percent
critical employee.
after about a year and a half, Ibecame aware that the company
had been, submitting false repsand certs, to the U S federal
(21:38):
government.
So basically when you sell togovernment, you represent under
oath to the government that.
The prices you're giving themfor same or similar transactions
are, as good or better than whatyou're offering other customers
in the commercial market.
So that's called most favorednation pricing.
because you're dealing withtaxpayer money, companies have
(22:00):
to make an attestation underoath saying we're not going to
sell for anybody else at agreater discount than what we
are selling to the U.
S.
federal government.
And I became aware that thecompany was in fact violating
that provision.
I had at that point, the publicsector organization was growing
at about 38 percent CAGR,combined average annual growth
(22:22):
rate.
we had grown the organizationabout three or four X in terms
of the number of people as wellas the revenues.
and so I, took the issue to ourcorporate attorney, Paul Levy,
who had been with me atPeopleSoft.
and they wanted a good lawyer.
I said, go hire Paul Levy.
He's about the best softwaretransaction attorney out there.
Paul looked at the situation andsaid, you're right, Bill.
(22:44):
Bill's right.
He sent a note to the vicepresident of North America.
Um, Bill's right.
This is illegal.
Stop doing it.
Don Finley (22:50):
So this is nine months in, like around that time
Bill Sullivan (22:53):
would have been about a year and a
Don Finley (22:54):
about a year and a half
Bill Sullivan (22:55):
about a year and a half in.
Yeah, I had already beendesignated a top 1 percent
critical employee.
I would be designated again thesecond year a top 1 percent
critical employee, but it kickedoff a situation where it was
like a John Grisham novel.
I knew.
Based on being in the market for25 years, that what they were
doing was illegal.
It wasn't a gray zone.
(23:15):
it was the senior governmentofficer of the company.
I had the company's attorneysay, he's right.
This is illegal.
Six months later, he reviewed itagain.
He said, are you still doingthis?
Let me tell you all of the badthings that can happen.
Oracle just paid 180 millionfine.
CA just paid it, 50 or 60million fine.
Don't do this anymore.
And they continue to do it.
(23:35):
a couple of things happened in,over the time there at
Informatica, first Paul Hoffmanleft.
again, Paul was a fabulousleader.
He had the trust of people inthe company.
the CEO Sohey brought in a newleadership team.
and again, John McGee wasbrought in as the executive vice
president.
John's a superb leader, goodman.
but he was told to do the wrongthings, basically burn down all
(23:57):
the field organization.
So that's why the companystarted to struggle to make
money, to hit the number.
And I kept trying to say, guys,don't do this.
And after a long period, I justwent to the CEO, Sohaib, and I
simply said, Sohaib, you can runthe company any way you want.
I quit.
And he asked me to fly out andtalk to him.
And so we did.
And he asked me, he said, look,I need your help, Bill.
I need you to need your help tofix the company.
(24:19):
Would you give a presentation tothe executive staff on what you
feel is wrong with the company?
Because I agree with you.
And I said, okay.
I said, if I do that, however,Hey, I'm going to be the most
unpopular person in the companyand probably in the software
industry, but he said, no, Bill,I will protect you.
about six weeks later, I wentout, I brought one of my
(24:39):
managers, Jim Pruden, superbindividual.
And I think Kimberly Williamswas with me and I gave this
presentation and in the wake ofthat presentation, he moved John
McGee out of the company, movedmy boss down a level, brought in
a guy from Europe, Charles Race,to serve as executive vice
president of the company.
And I just went back to work.
(25:00):
About six months went by, weclosed the third quarter, had a
great third quarter.
flew up to New York and, Franksaid to me, Bill, I think we're
going to fire you.
And I said, really, Frank, whyis that?
He said, we don't think you'reon the team.
And, so Charles race is going tofly in from London and he's
probably going to fire you thisafternoon.
I said, okay, let's see whatCharles says.
So Charles comes in and startsdown the road of, I'm hearing
(25:22):
that you're not really committedto the company.
And I said, Charles, let me tellyou a story.
I actually went to Sohey.
Back in March and quit.
The reason you have your job isbecause I gave the presentation.
So they've asked me to give, andhe moved John out and he put you
in the job.
first to do that.
(25:44):
And now you're telling me youwant to fire me and you're
telling me I'm not committed tothe business.
They said, you don't havesomebody that's more committed
to this company than myself.
was immediately apologetic.
Neither he nor Frank had knownthat I had quit with Sohaib.
They had no idea how thatmeeting to the executive staff
came about that I had been askedto do it.
So I figured, okay, I'll go backand I'll go back to work.
(26:06):
So three months goes by andFrank comes into Washington at
the beginning of the next yearand says, we're going to let you
go.
And I said, wow, we're going todo this again, huh, Frank?
And I didn't even bother to callSohaib the last time.
So I called him.
I said, Sohaib, what happenedto, I will protect you.
And He said, Bill, I've beenhearing things.
And I said, so have you beenhearing things from people that
got demoted as a result of thepresentation you asked me to
(26:27):
give?
So the numbers don't justify it.
I'm still the fastest growingdivision in the company.
And he said, if you go quietly,we'll be generous.
Okay.
yeah.
So that's where this started toturn into a Grisham novel.
And I floated a severance planof, one year base salary, and
Pay my health care until I'mdone.
And now that was too expensive.
(26:47):
And that's when I said, okay,there's something up here.
and so I, I took the situationto a friend of mine, who's a
former U.
S.
attorney.
And he in turn referred it tolawyers at London and Meade who
handle these types of things.
And they came back in 24 hoursthat, we've got all the emails
saying this is illegal.
we'll take the case.
Not only that, we know thejustice department attorney that
(27:07):
handles these matter, we'llfloat it to them and see what
they want it.
And typically justice looks atsomething for four to six months
before they accept it.
I think they came back in twoweeks and said, we want this
case.
So a couple of things happened.
by that point I had started atanother company.
but my concern and the reason Ifelt I had to do this was, the
nature of a conspiracy.
(27:29):
If, something is wrong and youdon't call it, you're every bit
as guilty as the people thatactually do it.
so I knew all along that if thiswere to be revealed.
As head of public sector, thegovernment, justice department
attorneys or GSA would come lookat me, put my hand on a Bible
and say, Mr.
Sullivan, what did you know?
when did you know it?
And what did you do about it?
(27:51):
And, these were not stupidpeople.
The fact that they were, goingto try to, they did fire me.
In the wake of, letting themknow manifestly what their own
attorney told them was illegal.
I knew that this was an issue.
So justice department picked upthe case.
they put it under seal.
I became aware that the company.
(28:11):
was going to be taken private.
again, the wheels were comingoff.
one.
the attorneys and I said, look,they're going to go private.
So they, three, two thingshappened in quick succession.
the company issued a pressrelease saying, celebrating the
fact they're going to get takenby Primerica and some other
companies, Salesforce Ventures.
three days later, they said,we've been notified that we will
(28:32):
be, the subject of a justicedepartment investigation, but we
don't believe that it has anymerits.
Well, four years went by, itturns out it had merits.
Most of the complaint that wasfiled, reads exactly like the,
press release the JusticeDepartment issued four years
later.
And the Justice, DOJ also citedthe case as one of their top
(28:53):
wins for 2019.
it's not something, certainlynot something I wanted to do,
but again, if you're in thatconspiracy.
Don Finley (29:01):
yeah, and I was just gonna ask, because, you kinda
come to this decision, and wejust brushed over the idea that
like, there's a lot that goesinto that.
You're now going from being inInformatica in that internal
place of trying to address theproblem, cause you want to
rectify it, but then as soon asthey really turn coded on you,
(29:23):
Like your response was to go tothe lawyers, but there's a gap
in there that has to be ratherintense.
And it has to like bump againstyour character and like your
understanding of Who you are asa team player in one capacity.
And then additionally, yourresponsibility as like a, to
yourself and to your communityon the other.
(29:43):
and I'm just curious about whatthat experience was like,
Bill Sullivan (29:47):
when I was an undergraduate at William Mary, I
had a finance professor, Ibelieve his name was O'Connell,
who one time told the class, ifyou are ever an executive and
you don't know what to do,always act in the best interests
of the shareholder.
and, that has guided me throughso many weird, there's always
challenging situations thefurther you go up in management.
(30:09):
that was one of them.
And the other one that, thatguided me was it was just so
clearly illegal, I did not wantto go through life.
if I had accepted their offer toquote, go quietly and return for
a lot of money, I was aconspirator and I, I just was
not the way I want.
I didn't want to go through lifelooking over my shoulder.
and so those were the twoguiding principles I had when,
(30:33):
not only then, but many timesthrough my career.
Just there, there are oftentimesthat companies will act in a way
that is inethitable to theshareholder interest, but as an
executive and as a leader, youhave to do that first.
and actually, first you have toobey the law, honestly, this
wasn't a tough call, This wasn'ta gray zone.
This was just and as a publiclytraded.
(30:54):
As an executive with publiclytraded companies, I've been
through, legal training,everything from foreign corrupt
practices to antitrust to HR.
You name it many times.
(31:30):
critical employee ofInformatica.
I didn't go looking for alawsuit.
I, I risked my entire careertrying to help the then CEO fix
the company.
and that was my reward.
when you do that, your hand isforced.
Don Finley (31:43):
I'm seeing a lot of similarities in other stories
that I've read around likepeople who are faced with
adversity.
And this is, the John Smithhero's journey, Like you found
something, you faced adversityand you had to overcome it, but
it almost felt like it wasdestiny as well.
Like you were put into thissituation and I'm putting words
in your mouth in that regard.
this is what fate has broughtyou to.
(32:03):
And it's your choice to stand upin this moment and decide who
you are.
And you chose to be somebody whohas, the integrity to follow
through with your word, tosupport your community, to be
there for the shareholders, aswell.
And I'm using shareholders, notas the typical corporate
structure, but basically in yourcommunity and the shareholders
of the United States, as thatgoes.
Bill Sullivan (32:26):
I want to clear, I'm not Joan of Arc,
Don Finley (32:27):
no,
Bill Sullivan (32:28):
but, if I had friends that say, Hey, we're
going to go rob a bank.
Okay.
We just want you to drive thecar.
You don't have to get out of thecar.
You don't have to pick up a gun.
You don't have to grab anymoney.
You just need to drive the car.
if they go in, they shootsomebody in the bank.
Now I've got a murder onecharge.
Okay.
That's the nature of aconspiracy.
That's what they teach in lawschool.
And so you're either all in.
(32:50):
You were all out.
And I just knew I was all out.
I did not want any part of it.
again, I had originally gone toSo Haven Efforts to quit, and he
asked me not to do it, to stayand help him fix the company.
But, it is personal integrity,but it also no small degree of
fear.
'cause I don't wanna live mylife saying, yeah, gee, I hope
(33:10):
nobody ever finds out what I didor did not do at Informatica.
And I, at this don't have to.
Don Finley (33:17):
conscious is a strong driver.
Now, so we talked about theoutcome of the lawsuit as well.
how do you think this hasimpacted Informatica and have
they, come to be moretransparent or at least honoring
their favorite nation clauses?
Bill Sullivan (33:32):
yeah.
I have nothing negative to sayabout the Informatica
corporation.
at Denota, I've been competingwith Informatica for a few
years.
They have great technology.
They have great people.
Neil Chakravarthy was the CEO.
I can't remember the gentlemanthat took it now.
He was there when I was there.
These are good people, Thesewere decisions that were being
made by a very small coterie ofpeople that are no longer with
the company.
(33:52):
So I have no, antipathy towardsInformatica Corporation.
It's executives are employeestoday.
they got great stuff.
but how it has, affected me, Iwas fired from three of four
jobs I had after the lawsuit wasfiled.
And I've had people say, Oh,that kind of happens to
whistleblowers.
when you go into the case andthe justice department tells
(34:13):
you, Oh, you can't touch awhistleblower.
It's going to be great.
And that was a big deal becauseagain, I threw a hand grenade
into a 5.
3 billion dollar corporatetransaction.
And they were very concernedboth for my personal safety, as
well as, the, integrity of theircase.
my resume, which people can seeonline, was actually submitted
in a federal court filing underoath.
(34:35):
So if it was wrong, anything waswrong, that would have
undermined, so not many peoplecan say their resume has
survived a federal court,jurisdiction, review.
again, it speaks to theintegrity piece, but so you come
out of it and As I said, I wasfired from three of four
companies in the five yearsafter I left Informatica.
I won't walk through all ofthem, but, obviously at that
(34:56):
point, I realized there, therewas something up.
I remember at one company, I hada great performance.
I've been there 10 months, 300percent same quarter year over
year growth, I had built a salesorganization.
The president came in on aThursday afternoon and said,
Bill, it's just not working.
And I said, Bob, it's nevergoing to get better, but
employment will stay, they canfire you for anything you want.
(35:16):
I was at Cloudera and, took themsuccessfully through the IPO.
three days after the optionsunlocked, my boss, flew into
town and said, we're going tohave to let you go.
And I don't typically get angryby.
Principle, and I wasn't angrywith my boss.
Ken Schock is still a goodfriend.
he didn't even know why he wasfiring me, if I'd be honest.
Neither do I think to Tom Rileyor the gentleman that was
(35:38):
running North American sales,who's a great North American
sales leader, but the companyknew that my mother was in the
intensive care unit, she wouldgo on to die about four days
later.
So they flew into town, fired meand went back up to the hospital
and dealt with that.
fortunately, my old friend,David Levy called and, asked me
to set up division at AWS forhim.
and that went on to, I built ateam of 25, some odd people
(36:02):
focused on the top 25 federalsystems integrators, that was
the fastest growing organizationworldwide for AWS.
last year I was there, receivedan award for that.
but then, it was interesting.
I went to in for, I lovedworking for David.
AWS has its challenges.
I had a couple of specificchallenges.
(36:22):
Charles Phillips, who was theCEO of Infor at the time, who
had also been the president ofOracle when I did the
integration of PeopleSoft publicsector into Oracle, called me
and said, Hey, I've got a 300million business.
Hasn't made the number in ayear.
Can you come?
I really need you.
And I said, nobody leaves AWSCharles.
Thank you.
And he said, no, I really needyou.
(36:42):
And a good friend of mine wasretiring from that spot.
And it wasn't just the money,but obviously the third effort,
they made a great run at me andI went over, and I had.
Five of the regional vicepresidents working for me had
worked for me at PeopleSoft.
So again, work with people, andtrust.
I'd say 50 percent of theorganization had been on my team
at PeopleSoft.
So I'm there about five monthsand, the senior vice president
(37:03):
of public sector.
About 30 percent of the company.
is the first time the publicsector had made its number in a
year.
That first full quarter I wasthere, I get fired again.
much.
Yep.
(37:48):
I said, ask these people, whatdo they think about Bill
Sullivan?
And a lot of them are friendsand percent of them came back
saying greatest guy.
You should hire him.
even the head of HR in an Ovalon Patty.
God love her.
Thank you, Patty.
she said, Bill Sullivan's agreat leader.
You should hire him.
but Abbasi and Race came backand said, Sullivan had set up
the situation at Informatica.
(38:11):
And that he had profited as aresult of his setting it up and
they didn't trust me andwouldn't recommend my being
hired and had been telling manypeople that exact story.
And I sent you some of thereport from that investigation
firm, which attests to exactlywhat it was.
despite having a recognitionthat the behavior predated my
(38:33):
tenure at Informatica by twoyears, despite having the
internal lawyer telling themthat it was illegal and
Sullivan's right, don't do it.
They were then representing tothe market that, I had set the
whole thing up, which wasfantastical anyway, because I
wouldn't, then had no way ofdetermining what were the
Commercial sales levels ofInformatica.
retained that same lawyer, readyto for a lawsuit, found that,
(38:55):
unless you can, prove thatsomebody didn't hire you.
Or, fired you as a result ofwhat they said, you, it's hard
to claim damages.
So I could spend a quartermillion dollars on a lawsuit,
come up with a 1 jury verdict.
I won, I was defamed, but no wayto prove it.
it didn't seem like a decliningreturn.
A year went by, I became awarethat they were speaking with my
(39:17):
then CEO.
At Denodo saying the samethings, I ran the whole test
again.
Of course, I use the same groupa second time.
They, by this point, they knewwhat was going on the first
time.
Everybody thought I was paranoidand weird, but they were willing
to take my money.
The second time they were onside, same results, but again,
not able to.
prove that somebody, nobody'swilling to go on a record and
(39:39):
said, yeah, I spoke with SoheilBilbassy or Charles Race and I
fired Bill Sullivan as a result.
but both gentlemen confirmedthat, they'd been saying this
to, different people in themarket, including my then
current CEO at Denodo, CharlesRace even went so far as to say
he chuckled and said, I hopeBill, made a lot of money
because he's not going to workin this industry again.
Don Finley (39:57):
Wow.
Wow.
Bill Sullivan (39:58):
Yeah.
So that, people wonder why I'vemoved a lot over the last five
years.
It's because that's what wasgoing on.
and so that's part of the reasonI've come forward now.
fortunately, through friends,I've retained another attorney,
former U.
S.
Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.
has stepped into the case and hesent both individuals a letter
saying, we know what you'redoing.
(40:18):
the practices predated Mr.
Sullivan's tenure by two years.
if it doesn't stop, we will be,acting affirmatively in Mr.
Sullivan's interest.
I'm again, at that situationwhere, Is it worth it to spend a
quarter million dollars deposinghalf of Silicon Valley in order
to win a 1 judgment?
And so part of the reason I'mcoming forward now is just to
(40:39):
simply say, Hey, here's the factset, here's what happened at
Informatica.
I've got all the emails.
I am going to be putting them ina book, and let people decide
for themselves because, for mostpeople being the number one vice
president at IBM or PeopleSoftInformatica would be a career
making thing, but I've done allof them, repeatedly throughout.
(41:00):
and the idea that I, I'veinterviewed with over 25
companies, not been able to findA.
job and they all followed thatsame track where, I do four or
five interviews, do the paneldiscussion.
Bill, we love you.
you've run sales forces atscale, P& L up to 300 million.
You've run a team of lobbyists,DC, the national market, and
(41:20):
then a few weeks goes by andthey say, we're going to hire
Bob down in Tallahassee becausehe used to work with our EVP.
I'm tired of that game.
And so now's an opportunity forme to tell my story.
Don Finley (41:30):
and I'm glad that you're finally coming out and
telling the story because Ithink there's two sides of this,
as far as the impact that thishas.
One, it's not right for you topoint out something that needs
to be corrected.
Get sidelined at the one companyand then to go and do what
objectively is the right thingof, blowing the whistle and then
(41:52):
going through that process,which I believe was a four year
process as well to be able toget, holding people accountable
for what agreements they have inplace and additionally to
follow.
what are the lessons that youwould take out of this for
others to, to embody if they'rein a similar situation, like how
would you hope that otherpeople, are able to compose
(42:13):
themselves in these matters?
Bill Sullivan (42:15):
this area of the law is actually increasing, in
interest because, there's a lotof this and I think in the
coming weeks and months, there'sgoing to be a lot of folks
coming out with testimony aboutwhat the government did or did
not do right.
Nothing, not companies, butgovernment, maybe some of the
companies as well.
I wholeheartedly encourage.
the Justice Department to,ensure that, to take a better
(42:36):
stance at protecting theirwhistleblowers.
that's gonna have to becritical.
and I'm tell also telling thestory just to highlight the ob,
the risks of being awhistleblower, it, whether
you're in government or you'rein industry, it's a risky thing.
and again, part of my story andtelling it, I think it was,
transportation secretary,Raymond Donovan was charged with
federal crimes.
He famously just found notguilty.
(42:56):
He went out in the front courts,the front steps of the
courthouse.
And he said, that's great.
Now, where do I reclaim myreputation?
And that's one of the lessonslearned is sometimes you have to
fight back to reclaim yourreputation, and that may be, the
situation with otherwhistleblowers coming forward.
So it's been a, it's been along, there's been there, and
again, there's, you were right.
You touched on that four yearperiod.
(43:17):
you talking about the personalside of things, my wife did not
know.
anything about this case thatwas going on.
My closest friends did not knowanything about this case that
was going on.
my priest and my bartenderdidn't know what was going on
with the case.
Now, fortunately, I've got someexperience, keeping secrets.
but I took steps to protect myfamily.
But of course, since I couldn'ttell them why I was doing that,
(43:38):
they all thought I was crazy.
you throw a hand
Don Finley (43:40):
of those things that you shared in the first
conversation we had that justblew my mind because it's an
intensely stressful situationthat you're going through, Like
your reputation is on the line.
you're doing the right thing.
And at the same time, you'refacing a lot of adversity
through it.
And so all of your supportsystems that you've built up
(44:01):
over the years, the closepersonal relationships, and
especially your spouse, notbeing able to share that with
them just adds to the pressureof this.
And so I could only imagine thecraziness that they thought you
were going through.
Bill Sullivan (44:16):
Oh yeah.
and again, on my LinkedIn page,I do a lot of open water
swimming.
is he a drug addict?
Is he a drunk?
Why?
Why is he changing jobs sofrequently?
no.
He's pretty healthy and hiscredit rating's above 800 and,
he has still has the same wifeand doesn't have a Porsche
collection and doesn't do nosecandy.
But that is what has been goingon and it's, it has been taxing,
but, I think it's with this, mycoming forward now, I think not
(44:39):
only will it hopefully clearsome of the questions about my
character, my career, mybackground, but also help some
additional, Whistleblowers tohave some courage and to
recognize these are thepitfalls, but you really have to
do it.
Don Finley (44:54):
Yeah.
We've touched a bit on how yourlife's changed since leaving
Informatica and blowing thewhistle.
and also, what others arelooking to take similar stands.
Where's the future for you?
Bill Sullivan (45:04):
there's a few things I'm speaking with a few
companies now, we'll see howthey react to this discussion.
But, I have started to tellpeople during the course of,
interviews, look, this issomething that happened and this
is what's going on.
So this shouldn't be a surpriseto anybody.
It's funny, an acquaintance ofmine was just elected the, the
GOP governor of the state ofWest Virginia.
and West Virginia had his headpushed under water economically
(45:27):
by previous administrations.
I sent him a note.
I would love to go be the drugczar for the state of West
Virginia.
That's a public policy thingthat I would love to engage on.
they're great people out there.
It's one of our country's mostbeautiful states.
They've been treated abysmally.
in order to extract the energyfrom West Virginia, that is
(45:47):
beautiful.
they're going to have to getthat under control.
percent of kids under the age of18 are being raised by their
grandparents as a result of theopiate addiction in their, in
families out there.
So it's a really bad problem.
I may go back and run a publicsector group for a company.
I may go into government in someform or fashion.
I'll continue to do the things Ilove to do.
Ride the Ducati and open waterswim.
(46:08):
And, I've got a whole host offriends.
They don't realize how much theykeep me sane.
I've got a lot of friends.
I can look them in the eyes andsay, Hey man, I love you.
And they love me.
And, they don't know the wholebackdrop behind what was been
going on in my life.
Most of them are going to besurprised by this interview.
but, I meant it when I tellthem.
and, moving forward, I do hopeto find some answers to some
questions.
it, why did the government,stretch this out for four years?
(46:30):
They were, just a successfulcase.
They highlighted it in the yearend.
why did they dive at the 11thhour from a 60 to$80 million
fine, down to$21 million fine.
that was a shock to myattorneys, as well.
and the other thing that'sinteresting is.
None of the informaticaexecutives that have since been.
defaming me, have ever been heldpersonally accountable.
(46:53):
Now, again, Martha Stewart wentto jail over for 14 months or
four months at a federal prison,over a 224, 000 stock trade.
these executives materiallymisrepresented hundreds or
millions, tens of millions ofdollars in a publicly traded
company.
Company paid a 21 million dollarfine and everybody else skated
free.
(47:13):
So how did that happen?
so there's, there are still someopen questions in front of us
that, I believe people arelooking at, but, we'll see.
Don Finley (47:22):
that's fantastic.
more just in general, I knowwe've been talking about your
story.
what advice would you give?
What advice would you have forpeople who are just in general,
you have such a diverse careerand strong leadership skills
that I do want to touch on likeyou as that person who builds
organizations and changes of theworld in that capacity, like
(47:42):
what bit of inspiration couldyou leave us with?
Bill Sullivan (47:45):
do it just for the money.
Okay.
Technology, when I first gotinto it, it was fun.
Sybase was great.
Some college professorsintroduced some great
technology.
Back then, technology was theprovince of the pocket
calculator crowd and WallStreet, they weren't that
interested.
When you look at it now andseven companies, technology
companies are powering themarket, the dynamic has flipped
(48:08):
and that really has not been tothe benefit.
arguable whether or not it'sbeen the benefit of the industry
or not.
But yeah, we have a 90 percentfailure rate in companies simply
because they got dollar billsigns in our eyes and the best
technology doesn't win.
The best execution wins.
Don't lose sight of the fact youneed to have people around you
(48:28):
that can bring your great ideato market and scale it.
And either take it public orsell it.
everybody wants to be LarryEllison.
There's only one Larry Ellison.
You're not it.
Okay.
And so that's the first thing.
The second thing is torecognize, and this is very
humbling in the technologyindustry, You don't know
everything.
The people that are, can learnfast do best, again, if you knew
(48:51):
everything about mainframes,that was almost a hindrance when
client server hit, people thatare working in the cloud, they
look back on the internet andsay, yeah, isn't that cute.
I will tell you there's going tobe something after the cloud.
It'll probably be theintersection of AI and quantum
computing, and it's not going tobe wearable devices.
It's going to be, I'm notentirely sure what it is.
I'm not a futurist.
(49:12):
I'm much more of an executioner.
I And learn quickly.
And then finally, just, don'tlose your sense of self, it, you
can get into situations.
Like I say, tell the truth,first rule of bills rules,
(49:33):
particularly in public sector,people can do bad things and get
everybody into trouble.
tell the truth first andforemost to yourself and also to
the, to, to the bigger, thebroader world.
Don Finley (49:43):
I think at some point we may want to have you
back on to go over your rules.
Bill Sullivan (49:47):
Okay.
Don Finley (49:48):
Let's like, let's hold that for a future show, but
I
Bill Sullivan (49:50):
I would be honored.
Don Finley (49:52):
Bill, once again, thank you so much for spending
the time today to talk to us.
I like, really appreciate this,and you've been such a good
person to get to know over thelast few weeks and months, but
additionally, I love your storyand I'm really excited to be a
part of this chapter.
and speaking of chapters, we'regoing to put a link to your book
in the description.
(50:13):
So if anybody's interested indiving deeper into this story,
they'll know where to get yourbook at.
Bill Sullivan (50:18):
Don, I'm grateful for your having me on the show.
I've watched a number of yourepisodes.
as I said, before we started, Ithink you and I have good
simpatico and I appreciate yourkindness and your welcoming me
onto your program.
Don Finley (50:29):
Not a problem, my friend.
Thank you for tuning into TheHuman Code, sponsored by
FINdustries, where we harness AIto elevate your business.
By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
growth, we turn opportunitiesinto reality.
Let FINdustries be your guide toAI mastery, making success
inevitable.
(50:50):
Explore how at FINdustries.
co.
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