January 28, 2025 • 30 mins
Integrating Human-Centric Solutions with Carmen Santiago Keenon
In this episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley welcomes Carmen Santiago Keenon, a seasoned technical advisor with over 20 years of experience in IT services and sales. The discussion explores the intersection of technology and humanity, focusing on design thinking principles, automation, and AI. Carmen shares her unique approach to leveraging technology for personal growth and professional efficiency, emphasizing the importance of keeping humans in the loop. The conversation also addresses the role of technology in fostering inclusivity, particularly for underserved populations and those with disabilities. Carmen highlights the need for continuous investment in human skills alongside technological advancements to create meaningful, accessible solutions.
00:00 Introduction to The Human Code Podcast
00:49 Meet Carmen Santiago Keenon
01:18 Design Thinking and Personal Growth
02:33 Navigating Life's Gray Areas
06:59 Automation and Reducing Stress
09:35 The Role of Technology in Business
18:01 AI and Customer Service
23:56 AI in Autism Care and Accessibility
29:49 Conclusion and Sponsor Message
Sponsored by FINdustries
Hosted by Don Finley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Finley (00:00):
Welcome to the Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
So, whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:44):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
Today, we're thrilled to welcomeCarmen Santiago Keenon, a
trusted technical advisor and aleader in leveraging technology
to create meaningful humancentric solutions.
With over 20 years of experiencein it services and sales Carmen
specializes in bridging the gapbetween complex technical
(01:07):
solutions and real-worldbusiness needs her expertise
spans AI machine learning,automation and enterprise
software.
And her approach emphasizestransparency, trust and
accessibility.
In this episode, Carmen sharesher unique perspective on using
design thinking principles tonavigate uncertainty and create
growth.
We'll explore how she appliesautomation and AI to streamline
(01:29):
processes and reduce stress.
The importance of keeping humansin the loop in an increasingly
automated world.
And how technology it can be apowerful tool for inclusion,
particularly for underservedpopulations.
Join us on this thoughtprovoking conversation about the
balance between humanity andtechnology.
And how we can design solutionsthat truly make a difference in
(01:51):
our personal and professionallives.
I'm here with Carmen Santiago Keenon.
I love that Carmen just gave mea nice little laugh.
one very beautiful personsitting here with me, and she's
got an amazing story to share.
but at the same time, Carmen, Ijust want to ask you, what got
you interested in theintersection of humanity and
technology?
Carmen Santiago Keenon (02:11):
First, thank you for the compliment and
thank you for having me on yourshow.
you have amazing guests andamazing and interesting topics.
So thank you for the invite.
hi, that is a great question.
I, Love the idea of usingtechnology and humanity
(02:31):
together.
And this is what I mean by that.
And we touched on this a littlebit briefly before in
conversation as I, grew intechnology and different
technology tools and solutions,and modalities, I fell in love
with, business processautomation, workflow, and,
(02:53):
design thinking principles,design thinking.
And I started noticing that Icould use these same principles.
in my life.
They were applicable with makingmy life better, streamlining my
life, right?
Creating my own life workflow.
and there are two doctors out ofStanford that also felt the same
way.
So they have a book calledDesigning Your Life.
(03:16):
highly recommend it, and it'ssomething that has been helpful
for me.
And it's something that I usewhen I do my public speaking.
I just delivered, a talk trackcalled Navigating the Gray,
where I use design thinkingprinciples to really talk
through, maybe a problem we'rethinking through, and to really
(03:36):
work through solutions andgoals.
sitting with it, ideating on it,coming up with really structured
solutions on how we want to tryto solve the certain, X, Y, and
Z, or maybe even just thinkingthrough, the space of where
we're sitting at, for menavigating the gray is that gray
zone where we don't think thatwe're necessarily growing and
(03:57):
life might seem a little hardand pressured, We always bring
it to the seed.
A seed when you plant it doesn'tworry about what it's going to
become, right?
It's underneath though.
It's in the darkness and in thedarkness in that gray area is
where we get the nutrients thatwe need to grow.
It's uncomfortable.
We don't necessarily know whatwe're going to sprout but we
(04:19):
know we're doing this intensework if we choose to, And that
doesn't necessarily have to be alife shattering situation that
brings us to navigating thegray.
It could be something as, tryingto understand what your next
season holds, Am I stillresonating with corporate
America?
Am I still resonating with thisjob?
Am I still resonating with thisbusiness, Or with this hobby or
(04:41):
with the way that I'm eating,whatever it is for you, or it
could be as deep as, I have thissickness, what does that mean
for my life?
What do I want my life to looklike now that I've been given a
second chance at living?
We're navigating this season ofgrowth.
We're navigating this season ofuncertainty.
But that's also the best season,right?
(05:03):
If we allow it, if we choose it.
And that's where like designthinking principles can come in
handy to really navigate theseseasons.
Don Finley (05:11):
So what are some of the design thinking principles
that you've been able to applyor that could be helpful for
someone going through this gray
Carmen Santiago Keenon (05:18):
Oh, that's a great question.
All right.
So a lot of, design thinking, isaround mapping out solutions,
right?
You see what your might be orwhat you think it might be, and
mapping out possible solutionsaround, very pointed questions,
(05:38):
and so we think of things likeideation, how do we ideate
through a problem?
What are we thinking through aproblem?
What does that mean for us?
we really want to think throughdesigning it.
how are we, growing through it?
Are we ideating?
Are we, design thinking?
Are we designing the problem?
(05:58):
I think for me, ideation was theone that I really like to get
stuck on because it really makesyou have to think, And it really
makes you have to delve a littlebit deeper through just through
the feeling of something.
and starting to get to the rootcause of something, And once we
(06:18):
work through this, or we canincorporate other things, So
let's say if you use a workflowmap, a workflow tool, I work
with IBM wheelhouse a lot.
business process management,BPM, They have a Blueworks Live
tool, which helps you, you candownload this tool for free, and
it helps you map out, differentthings within the organization,
(06:40):
different problems, different,bottlenecks that you might have
within a process, really.
But you can use it, like, I'veused it to create something as
small as, a grocery list orsomething as big as mapping out
my next five month strategy, Ihave this role.
The end of the month is here.
What are the steps that aregoing to take to get me there?
so really using different toolsthat technology has automation,
(07:03):
when we talk about RPA, and, howwe can infuse some of that into
what we do, automating,redundant.
things that we do.
Redundant processes.
What, get with yourself.
What are redundant processesthat I have that I can automate,
so what are things that arestressors to me that I can
automate?
Is it sending out emails forpersonal emails?
(07:27):
Do I need to get some sort ofassistant, AI assistant?
Do I need to get and leverage,some sort of grocery, tool to
help me pick up my groceries?
What can I automate in my lifeand streamline to help relieve
stress,
Don Finley (07:42):
Okay, so some of the areas of basically saying hey
what's bringing joy into my lifeWhat's taking away
Carmen Santiago Keenon (07:48):
bringing joy to my life?
Don Finley (07:50):
is a good yeah some place to start and then from
there hey Is this I think itgoes back to that the Eisenhower
matrix as well, is it Important.
Is it not important?
Is it urgent or not urgent?
And like you get, depending onthe quadrant that it falls in,
we're able to then say, I shouldbe doing this or this shouldn't
(08:11):
even be being done.
And until we sit back and say,take that inventory of life, we
really don't know, or we'reprobably not as aware as we'd
like to think we are around someof the things that are, those
little nags that
Carmen Santiago Keenon (08:27):
And you realize that you're on
autopilot, but not necessarilyin automation, if that makes
sense.
So you're really robotic, So youmight have your process.
Like I'm very process specific.
Like I tell people all the time,if I would be very kidnappable,
and that's why I've learned totry and switch up my thing.
But if I walk a certain way, Imight work out or my jogging or
(08:51):
whatever.
It's a, it's a very specificroute, I know what to expect.
That's just the way that I take,but it's so just Like you just
get up and you do your thing.
But those are the times whereyou have to stop and pause, And
say, what is going on in myprocess?
Is this process even working forme?
There's times where I'm like,I'm working so hard.
(09:11):
I'm running a million miles aminute, but I'm running in the
wrong direction, or I'm runningaround in circles.
And we're not necessarilyreaching our goal because we're
stuck in this bottleneck of ourown process, our own, whether
it's our own mindset aroundsomething, or whether it's the
fact that we're just used tobeing a robot in that process,
That we realize it's not evennot working because we're just
(09:32):
used to doing it.
Don Finley (09:35):
you see the role of technology playing out in that
path?
Because here, I'll take a stepback and maybe give a little bit
of context.
I think we're walking down apath where businesses, it's
becoming easier for us to earnConsiderable amounts of money
with less people in theorganization.
And we saw back in the 80s inorder for us to generate 10
million, we needed like 50people.
(09:57):
You had to man, the whole gamutof services inside of one
organization.
But then SaaS and cloudcomputing and technology
advancements have really driventhat down to even the point
where Google, when they IPO'd,they were making a million
dollars per head.
in the company, And today,actually even WhatsApp, sold for
(10:22):
what?
13 billion or 18 billion andthey had 50 people in the
organization.
so technology has really allowedus to scale revenue while
keeping teams rather small.
And it seems a naturalprogression of that is to
getting down to teams of one.
And I know that Sam Altman has abet going with other CEOs as far
(10:42):
as when they're going to see thefirst billion dollar.
Single person business.
but I think that brings up onekind of like challenge, if we're
creating these businesses thatare one person, it really needs
to be aligned with that likething that you really want to
bring to this world.
Because if I'm the one personrunning an organization that is
(11:04):
something that I just hatedoing, then it's not going to be
an enjoyable experience nomatter what the amount of money
is.
Like, how do you see technologyhelping us to fill in that
purpose gap?
Carmen Santiago Keenon (11:16):
a great question.
So one, I'm going to say we needour humans.
that's why, we have a human inthe loop, It doesn't matter how
automated something is.
There's going to be a human inthe loop and, whether it's the
person that has to actuallytrain The models, so you
actually have to train your AImodel.
(11:37):
so that's, your LLMs, your,inputs on how you want to
structure, that, so like yourchat GPTs or whatever, Like
you're prompting things of thatnature.
We're going to need a human inthe loop.
So I think the idea of just oneperson running something is a
bit ridiculous just becausewe're going to need humans.
(11:58):
I think what we need to startinvesting in and looking into is
investing in our humans andtraining them up with the
technology, Because again, theywork together and yes, we can
automate things, but you stillneed a human to hit that button
to automate it, and.
(12:19):
I think if we stray away fromthat, that is a really hairy
gray area, if we really try toextract humanity from, business,
from the enterprise, I thinkthat's really scary.
And I think then we take outcompletely customer service.
customer service is already adying art anyhow, which is
(12:43):
really sad and hurts my heart.
as somebody that's always beenin customer service and sales
and client forward.
it makes me sad to see that theyounger generations really lack,
especially kids these days.
You go anywhere and you have ayoung, I have young adult
children and this isn't acriticism, However, I have
(13:05):
noticed that.
from the demographics of let'ssay maybe 18 and under, there
seems to be a gap with customerservice that they just don't
really know how to problem solveor even talk to you or look you
in the eye and just beconversational.
and I feel like, you and I arein the same age group.
(13:26):
We weren't like that in thenineties, growing up as much, I
feel like I was
Don Finley (13:31):
you and I had payphones, Like I started my
first business before I was 18.
And so I had a cell phone atthat time, but of my friends had
them, Like none of my friends inundergrad, few of my friends in
undergrad had text messaging atthe time.
our communication styles, as faras how we grew up, it's
(13:53):
completely different than it istoday.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (13:56):
I had a pay phone in my house.
no, no joke.
I ended up, moving into thefoster home and my parents.
I fostered five teenage girlsand then they had my three
younger siblings as well.
So that's eight kids in thehouse.
I mean we had a landline, butfor the teenagers, for the
girls, we had a pay phone.
Don Finley (14:15):
God, that's hilarious.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (14:17):
a pay phone in my house.
so yes, very interesting.
But, no, I feel you'd like it'skids will never know.
And it, But that hurts my heart,It makes me sad.
And that's why we have to alwayskeep the human in the loop.
What's going to happen,literally, to our children and
humanity if all, right now, allthey know is head down and phone
(14:39):
and iPad and this, And videogames.
There isn't doing this.
There isn't looking somebody inthe eye, shaking their hand.
I've, my kids and I've alwaystaught them just respect, that's
just out of respect.
But I go to restaurants or likeI had an experience at Home
Depot to pick something up.
that I bought from them, like apiece of furniture or whatever.
(15:02):
And they couldn't even help mefigure out how to get my stuff.
It was very interesting to seethat I finally was just like,
okay, I got this.
I just went in the back andasked the older person that was
working.
I was like, here's, I don'tknow.
They can't like, can you help mefigure this out?
And the guy started laughing andhe's yes, sorry about that.
(15:23):
I'm like, no, it's okay.
But.
It's really not, Because nowthese kids are in the workforce,
And that's the best that theycan do.
That's a problem because they'regoing to keep growing into
adulthood, And if we're notteaching basic skills, we have
to invest
Don Finley (15:42):
And,
Carmen Santiago Keenon (15:43):
being the technology with the basic
skills.
If what we're giving these kidsis only technology, we're going
to have to teach them.
The soft skills, the IQ throughtechnology, And we're going to
have to focus on upskilling ourcurrent employees and workforce
along with the education in theschool system around technology.
(16:07):
we are moving towards moreautomation, but I will say this
being in the it space, and I wasjust having this conversation
today, Earlier on a teammeeting, AI is still a very
scary thing for mostorganizations.
And most business lines and itlines.
So it's still very slow moving,Like we're still just taking
(16:28):
little chunks and pieces andplaying with automation.
And that's where things like RPAand other things come into play.
but full blown automation isstill very scary, say digital
transformation in the wrong roomand forget about it.
it's this curious space whereeveryone's AI is going to take
over and AI is going to takeover.
AI might have to take overcertain things that it makes
(16:48):
sense to.
But with that, we have to trainour workforce to work with the
technology because they go handin hand.
Again, bring it back.
You need the human in the loop.
Don Finley (17:00):
You need the human in the loop.
And I I had a guest on a whileago.
he's operations, but he's also,he's coaching college students
now.
So in retirement, he was like, Iwant to help that generation
out.
And the one thing that he said,he's AI is going to change the
skills necessary for theworkforce.
And the one thing that he'srecommending the students that
(17:21):
he mentors is to actually getmore managerial experience.
earlier on because you're bothgoing to be taking advice from
the AI, Like it's going toprovide you with insights and
possibly direction in how yougo.
But additionally, how you workwith it isn't so much from the
standpoint of being anindividual contributor anymore,
(17:41):
but you're now managingsomething that can create,
specifically talking about likeLLMs and generative AI.
The other side of that I findreally fascinating for how like
people will end up being usingthe tools is that dynamic of how
they learn how to use it.
one of the challenges that wesee when going into
(18:03):
organizations and saying thatdirty word of digital
transformation is Also sayingthat the first project that you
end up doing isn't going to havea positive ROI.
because we recommend thatbecause it's a digital
transformation that you need toget people comfortable with
using the tools and using it ina way that is non threatening to
(18:27):
them.
because once you can have themunderstand how to use it, then
you go and find the use cases.
that you actually want toimplement.
And one area that we're seeing,positive success is in customer
service, where human stays onthe phone with the person, but
(18:47):
the AI is listening to the call.
And like in a help deskscenario, the AI is pulling up
solutions.
for the problem that's beingdescribed, whereas the human is
forming the relationship andbeing the helper that they can
be and being that emotionalaspect that is rather helpful.
And so we're seeing that there'sa 40 percent increase in first
(19:08):
time
Carmen Santiago Keenon (19:09):
I love that.
Don Finley (19:10):
as well as a 25 percent increase in customer
satisfaction
Carmen Santiago Keenon (19:14):
and that's great because it allows
the human to be great at what itdoes, which is being human and
building the relationship.
Because it really sucks havingto be bogged down, part of the
bottleneck in that situation andpart of the reason why.
Sometimes, customers getfrustrated is because as you're
researching and trying to solvethe problem as a customer
service rep or what have you, isyou're doing this while you're
(19:37):
listening and you're trying tofigure it out and then you're
waiting and God forbid, you'rehaving technical difficulties
and, it's going to take.
Whatever.
And it's thinking and it'sthinking.
And you have to figure out thatdelicate balance between keeping
the customer still engaged andhappy while you're trying to
click away and type away andsolve their problem.
So I do think that's, that isthe perfect example of how AI
(20:02):
and tech and humans worktogether.
And that's what I'm hoping willcontinue to be the trend.
Don Finley (20:08):
want to say that I'm hopeful that's the trend, but
also that's the only place thatwe're actually applying
ourselves.
So like when we engage withcustomers, we want to make sure
that it actually, the AI in anagentic type of flow is used to
support.
The humans that are doing thejob.
And so we look at it more asaugmented intelligence than the
straight up artificial side ofit.
(20:29):
And additionally, that justleaves us with the opportunity
to say Hey, you're now creatinga workforce of people that will
understand how to interact withAI and they can help you in the
future to create more.
use cases for it.
one of our partner companies,their chief data science officer
we were just on a call togetherand he was going over one of
(20:51):
their solutions that they'vebeen working on.
And it is a chat component inwhich you can basically chat
with the entire company.
So all systems are integratedin, and then they have it broken
down into different functions.
But the different functions arebasically like, Hey, you're a
sale, an account executive, Theprimary data source for this is
(21:14):
past projects, industryresearch, and it will go in and
say, and this is a company thatdoes about a thousand projects a
year.
And so there's no way that onesingle account executive can
stay.
abreast and updated on all thethings that are going on.
But when they have anopportunity, let's say in
logistics and transportation,they just type in saying, Hey,
(21:36):
here's the company that I'mlooking at to create a pitch
for.
Can you give me projects thatare similar to this or related?
And it would be beneficial ifthey were on this tech stack it
just, it pulls all theinformation together for them.
So the next step on top of that.
is that's, query back and forth,Take that next idea is I have an
(22:00):
RFP, take all the informationfrom the different departments
and at least give me my firstdraft and then tell me who needs
to, verify this and create thattask list and let that go.
And so coordination aspect is nolonger a person going and trying
to find all the right people.
The first draft is provided tosomebody for review and editing
(22:24):
as well.
And then also all the sourcematerial is linked in it.
So you understand that it's notjust hallucinating based on,
what it's trying.
So I
Carmen Santiago Keenon (22:33):
I wonder how they
Don Finley (22:34):
there's a lot of
Carmen Santiago Keenon (22:34):
how did they train that to get that?
That's so interesting to me.
Don Finley (22:39):
So the solution is.
I wouldn't call it training.
Training is an interesting wordin this space, right?
Because you're talking aboutlike the foundational models of
chat GPT, or any of these largelanguage models, whether it's
Llama, GPT, Mistral, they'retrained on basically the
internet.
And no company has that amountof data to be able to train it
(23:01):
on that.
And additionally, training ismore of a one time exercise,
Like you train the model, yourelease the model, and it knows
what this system is doing is inreal time, it knows what's
happening.
That process is done under aframework called RAG.
It's retrieval augmentedgeneration, And so that
basically gives you like thelong term memory of a system.
(23:25):
And the whole premise is juston, the answer lies in the
question.
And so if you semantically embedthe question, you're likely
going to end up in a similarlatent space to the actual
answer, and then you can passthe source material into your,
larger language model, and haveit synthesize what the actual
(23:47):
response is based on all thesource material.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (23:51):
very interesting.
Don Finley (23:53):
it's, they're really cool solutions that are coming
out.
Now, I know we've touched onsome of this, but one thing that
I want to come to is, you talkedabout the Autism Care Project.
How do you see the AI being,helpful in that space or like
how we can apply technology to,the ones that we love that are
(24:14):
in a different state.
Yeah.
Carmen Santiago Keeno (24:15):
question.
So I sit on the board of theAutism Hero Project, and what we
do is we provide, we do a lot ofthings, but what we're best
known for is providing insurancepolicies for families that are
uninsured or uninsured that alsocovers their autism treatments,
which are very expensive.
but we also do communityengagements.
We train police officers on howto handle autistics and vice
(24:36):
versa.
And, a lot of inclusive events,theater, sports events, things
that are really inclusive thatyou can bring your kids and
families to and feelcomfortable.
so it's very interesting.
Again, I work with, RWS groupand they're a translation and
localization company.
but they are also.
a big AI tech company as well.
(24:58):
and they have many solutions andthey've been in the AI
automation tech space for 30years before AI was even a
thing.
And what was interesting andcurious for me to work, why I
wanted to work with them isbecause I do a lot around
accessibility and inclusivity,especially leaning in on
workforce inclusivity andaccessibility.
being somebody that wasdiagnosed later on in life with
(25:20):
being on the spectrum.
My son, whose son, we're stillworking through all of his,
things.
And, it, is very important to meto understand the human brain,
but also equip employers withthe tools to make things
accessible.
my girlfriend who is the VP ofthe Autism Hero Project, she
just got back from, Lockworld.
(25:40):
and she was telling meyesterday, actually, about this
tool that she just came across.
that works with helping peoplethat are nonverbal, that can't
speak, whether it's because, ofan injury or because of, being
nonverbal, autism, it helps themcommunicate.
and, she was saying that it wasvery progressive and, she had
(26:04):
told them, she's you should tryand embed this into, some of the
tools that the kids with autism,like her son, who's nonverbal
uses.
it'll help us, it might besomething that'll help them
communicate in real timequicker.
and so we are constantly seeinghow tools are becoming more
accessible for not just autism,but for disabilities in general.
(26:25):
and that is a beautiful thing.
I find that, autism, they callit a spectrum, but there's a lot
of comorbid things, So a lot ofus also have ADHD.
and that's, not on the spectrumyet.
I do feel like it might be downthe line.
They might add that one there,but it is what they call
comorbid with it.
So people that have ADHD are,the brain's also worked
(26:49):
similarly sometimes to peoplewith autism.
But some of the behaviors andlearning behaviors are similar.
and so that's why people getmisdiagnosed a lot with one or
the other, but we're findingthat there are now tools and
solutions that help createthings to make them accessible.
(27:09):
And that's why having, theseconversations within your
learning and development teamsis important.
Are we truly accessible?
if our customers and ouremployees, are they able to
truly engage with us?
Whether, what, outreach rightnow.
there is a big push in Europe.
they have their WCAG compliance,which is coming up in 2025.
Any business that is doingbusiness in Europe has to have,
(27:32):
their compliance aroundaccessibility.
I'm helping a lot of clients,we're helping them become, WCAG
compliant and accessible forpeople with disabilities and
learning abilities, differentlearning abilities because
everybody has the right to beequipped with information, And
that's really at the core ofthis, It's equipping other
humans with information thatthey need.
(27:55):
and so that's, what's exciting,is seeing these.
language models, these toolsreally leaning in on trying to
create solutions for people, andunderstanding that there's a
need,
Don Finley (28:08):
I think that's a beautiful point that you're
bringing up, that we can utilizethis technology to service a
population of people that needpersonalization because that,
their mind just worksdifferently than, others.
And like you described it, it'sa spectrum.
So we all possibly a little biton that spectrum.
I know I have ADHD as well, andI haven't been tested for
(28:31):
autism, but it's possible.
To, but in building technologyfor that population and allowing
for that personalization that'snecessary, I think we'll see
benefits across the board foreverybody as well to learn
people's individual learningstyles, to know how to
communicate with them, to beable to present information in a
way that is easier for people todigest or additionally
(28:53):
understand where they're at.
And was talking to a guest theother day and they were saying
that, looking at just even likeMBTI, Like you have people who
are thinkers and feelers.
And so you approach, addressinga problem or an opportunity in
different ways based on how thatperson processes.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (29:09):
IQ, And leadership IQ is a big thing.
I feel having the right leadersthat understand the importance
of accessibility, Because it'salso customer service, And, and
we're seeing it more and more,you're seeing it more on
websites.
My, city, my town where I livein, I just went on to pay a
(29:29):
utility bill and I was like, oh,I hit the accessibility thing
because they just did a newwebsite and I was like, wow,
they have options for peoplewith dyslexia.
I was like, chick, what doesthat look like?
but I was like, this is verycool to see what you really are
trying to think through.
Most human needs, and it's abeautiful thing.
Don Finley (29:48):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Carmen, thank you again forbeing on the show today.
Like I really appreciatedspending the time with you this
Thank you for tuning into TheHuman Code, sponsored by
Findustries, where we harness AIto elevate your business.
By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
growth, we turn opportunitiesinto reality.
(30:08):
Let Findustries be your guide toAI mastery, making success
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co.
Welcome to the Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
So, whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:44):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
Today, we're thrilled to welcomeCarmen Santiago Keenon, a
trusted technical advisor and aleader in leveraging technology
to create meaningful humancentric solutions.
With over 20 years of experiencein it services and sales Carmen
specializes in bridging the gapbetween complex technical
(01:07):
solutions and real-worldbusiness needs her expertise
spans AI machine learning,automation and enterprise
software.
And her approach emphasizestransparency, trust and
accessibility.
In this episode, Carmen sharesher unique perspective on using
design thinking principles tonavigate uncertainty and create
growth.
We'll explore how she appliesautomation and AI to streamline
(01:29):
processes and reduce stress.
The importance of keeping humansin the loop in an increasingly
automated world.
And how technology it can be apowerful tool for inclusion,
particularly for underservedpopulations.
Join us on this thoughtprovoking conversation about the
balance between humanity andtechnology.
And how we can design solutionsthat truly make a difference in
(01:51):
our personal and professionallives.
I'm here with Carmen Santiago Keenon.
I love that Carmen just gave mea nice little laugh.
one very beautiful personsitting here with me, and she's
got an amazing story to share.
but at the same time, Carmen, Ijust want to ask you, what got
you interested in theintersection of humanity and
technology?
Carmen Santiago Keenon (02:11):
First, thank you for the compliment and
thank you for having me on yourshow.
you have amazing guests andamazing and interesting topics.
So thank you for the invite.
hi, that is a great question.
I, Love the idea of usingtechnology and humanity
(02:31):
together.
And this is what I mean by that.
And we touched on this a littlebit briefly before in
conversation as I, grew intechnology and different
technology tools and solutions,and modalities, I fell in love
with, business processautomation, workflow, and,
(02:53):
design thinking principles,design thinking.
And I started noticing that Icould use these same principles.
in my life.
They were applicable with makingmy life better, streamlining my
life, right?
Creating my own life workflow.
and there are two doctors out ofStanford that also felt the same
way.
So they have a book calledDesigning Your Life.
(03:16):
highly recommend it, and it'ssomething that has been helpful
for me.
And it's something that I usewhen I do my public speaking.
I just delivered, a talk trackcalled Navigating the Gray,
where I use design thinkingprinciples to really talk
through, maybe a problem we'rethinking through, and to really
(03:36):
work through solutions andgoals.
sitting with it, ideating on it,coming up with really structured
solutions on how we want to tryto solve the certain, X, Y, and
Z, or maybe even just thinkingthrough, the space of where
we're sitting at, for menavigating the gray is that gray
zone where we don't think thatwe're necessarily growing and
(03:57):
life might seem a little hardand pressured, We always bring
it to the seed.
A seed when you plant it doesn'tworry about what it's going to
become, right?
It's underneath though.
It's in the darkness and in thedarkness in that gray area is
where we get the nutrients thatwe need to grow.
It's uncomfortable.
We don't necessarily know whatwe're going to sprout but we
(04:19):
know we're doing this intensework if we choose to, And that
doesn't necessarily have to be alife shattering situation that
brings us to navigating thegray.
It could be something as, tryingto understand what your next
season holds, Am I stillresonating with corporate
America?
Am I still resonating with thisjob?
Am I still resonating with thisbusiness, Or with this hobby or
(04:41):
with the way that I'm eating,whatever it is for you, or it
could be as deep as, I have thissickness, what does that mean
for my life?
What do I want my life to looklike now that I've been given a
second chance at living?
We're navigating this season ofgrowth.
We're navigating this season ofuncertainty.
But that's also the best season,right?
(05:03):
If we allow it, if we choose it.
And that's where like designthinking principles can come in
handy to really navigate theseseasons.
Don Finley (05:11):
So what are some of the design thinking principles
that you've been able to applyor that could be helpful for
someone going through this gray
Carmen Santiago Keenon (05:18):
Oh, that's a great question.
All right.
So a lot of, design thinking, isaround mapping out solutions,
right?
You see what your might be orwhat you think it might be, and
mapping out possible solutionsaround, very pointed questions,
(05:38):
and so we think of things likeideation, how do we ideate
through a problem?
What are we thinking through aproblem?
What does that mean for us?
we really want to think throughdesigning it.
how are we, growing through it?
Are we ideating?
Are we, design thinking?
Are we designing the problem?
(05:58):
I think for me, ideation was theone that I really like to get
stuck on because it really makesyou have to think, And it really
makes you have to delve a littlebit deeper through just through
the feeling of something.
and starting to get to the rootcause of something, And once we
(06:18):
work through this, or we canincorporate other things, So
let's say if you use a workflowmap, a workflow tool, I work
with IBM wheelhouse a lot.
business process management,BPM, They have a Blueworks Live
tool, which helps you, you candownload this tool for free, and
it helps you map out, differentthings within the organization,
(06:40):
different problems, different,bottlenecks that you might have
within a process, really.
But you can use it, like, I'veused it to create something as
small as, a grocery list orsomething as big as mapping out
my next five month strategy, Ihave this role.
The end of the month is here.
What are the steps that aregoing to take to get me there?
so really using different toolsthat technology has automation,
(07:03):
when we talk about RPA, and, howwe can infuse some of that into
what we do, automating,redundant.
things that we do.
Redundant processes.
What, get with yourself.
What are redundant processesthat I have that I can automate,
so what are things that arestressors to me that I can
automate?
Is it sending out emails forpersonal emails?
(07:27):
Do I need to get some sort ofassistant, AI assistant?
Do I need to get and leverage,some sort of grocery, tool to
help me pick up my groceries?
What can I automate in my lifeand streamline to help relieve
stress,
Don Finley (07:42):
Okay, so some of the areas of basically saying hey
what's bringing joy into my lifeWhat's taking away
Carmen Santiago Keenon (07:48):
bringing joy to my life?
Don Finley (07:50):
is a good yeah some place to start and then from
there hey Is this I think itgoes back to that the Eisenhower
matrix as well, is it Important.
Is it not important?
Is it urgent or not urgent?
And like you get, depending onthe quadrant that it falls in,
we're able to then say, I shouldbe doing this or this shouldn't
(08:11):
even be being done.
And until we sit back and say,take that inventory of life, we
really don't know, or we'reprobably not as aware as we'd
like to think we are around someof the things that are, those
little nags that
Carmen Santiago Keenon (08:27):
And you realize that you're on
autopilot, but not necessarilyin automation, if that makes
sense.
So you're really robotic, So youmight have your process.
Like I'm very process specific.
Like I tell people all the time,if I would be very kidnappable,
and that's why I've learned totry and switch up my thing.
But if I walk a certain way, Imight work out or my jogging or
(08:51):
whatever.
It's a, it's a very specificroute, I know what to expect.
That's just the way that I take,but it's so just Like you just
get up and you do your thing.
But those are the times whereyou have to stop and pause, And
say, what is going on in myprocess?
Is this process even working forme?
There's times where I'm like,I'm working so hard.
(09:11):
I'm running a million miles aminute, but I'm running in the
wrong direction, or I'm runningaround in circles.
And we're not necessarilyreaching our goal because we're
stuck in this bottleneck of ourown process, our own, whether
it's our own mindset aroundsomething, or whether it's the
fact that we're just used tobeing a robot in that process,
That we realize it's not evennot working because we're just
(09:32):
used to doing it.
Don Finley (09:35):
you see the role of technology playing out in that
path?
Because here, I'll take a stepback and maybe give a little bit
of context.
I think we're walking down apath where businesses, it's
becoming easier for us to earnConsiderable amounts of money
with less people in theorganization.
And we saw back in the 80s inorder for us to generate 10
million, we needed like 50people.
(09:57):
You had to man, the whole gamutof services inside of one
organization.
But then SaaS and cloudcomputing and technology
advancements have really driventhat down to even the point
where Google, when they IPO'd,they were making a million
dollars per head.
in the company, And today,actually even WhatsApp, sold for
(10:22):
what?
13 billion or 18 billion andthey had 50 people in the
organization.
so technology has really allowedus to scale revenue while
keeping teams rather small.
And it seems a naturalprogression of that is to
getting down to teams of one.
And I know that Sam Altman has abet going with other CEOs as far
(10:42):
as when they're going to see thefirst billion dollar.
Single person business.
but I think that brings up onekind of like challenge, if we're
creating these businesses thatare one person, it really needs
to be aligned with that likething that you really want to
bring to this world.
Because if I'm the one personrunning an organization that is
(11:04):
something that I just hatedoing, then it's not going to be
an enjoyable experience nomatter what the amount of money
is.
Like, how do you see technologyhelping us to fill in that
purpose gap?
Carmen Santiago Keenon (11:16):
a great question.
So one, I'm going to say we needour humans.
that's why, we have a human inthe loop, It doesn't matter how
automated something is.
There's going to be a human inthe loop and, whether it's the
person that has to actuallytrain The models, so you
actually have to train your AImodel.
(11:37):
so that's, your LLMs, your,inputs on how you want to
structure, that, so like yourchat GPTs or whatever, Like
you're prompting things of thatnature.
We're going to need a human inthe loop.
So I think the idea of just oneperson running something is a
bit ridiculous just becausewe're going to need humans.
(11:58):
I think what we need to startinvesting in and looking into is
investing in our humans andtraining them up with the
technology, Because again, theywork together and yes, we can
automate things, but you stillneed a human to hit that button
to automate it, and.
(12:19):
I think if we stray away fromthat, that is a really hairy
gray area, if we really try toextract humanity from, business,
from the enterprise, I thinkthat's really scary.
And I think then we take outcompletely customer service.
customer service is already adying art anyhow, which is
(12:43):
really sad and hurts my heart.
as somebody that's always beenin customer service and sales
and client forward.
it makes me sad to see that theyounger generations really lack,
especially kids these days.
You go anywhere and you have ayoung, I have young adult
children and this isn't acriticism, However, I have
(13:05):
noticed that.
from the demographics of let'ssay maybe 18 and under, there
seems to be a gap with customerservice that they just don't
really know how to problem solveor even talk to you or look you
in the eye and just beconversational.
and I feel like, you and I arein the same age group.
(13:26):
We weren't like that in thenineties, growing up as much, I
feel like I was
Don Finley (13:31):
you and I had payphones, Like I started my
first business before I was 18.
And so I had a cell phone atthat time, but of my friends had
them, Like none of my friends inundergrad, few of my friends in
undergrad had text messaging atthe time.
our communication styles, as faras how we grew up, it's
(13:53):
completely different than it istoday.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (13:56):
I had a pay phone in my house.
no, no joke.
I ended up, moving into thefoster home and my parents.
I fostered five teenage girlsand then they had my three
younger siblings as well.
So that's eight kids in thehouse.
I mean we had a landline, butfor the teenagers, for the
girls, we had a pay phone.
Don Finley (14:15):
God, that's hilarious.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (14:17):
a pay phone in my house.
so yes, very interesting.
But, no, I feel you'd like it'skids will never know.
And it, But that hurts my heart,It makes me sad.
And that's why we have to alwayskeep the human in the loop.
What's going to happen,literally, to our children and
humanity if all, right now, allthey know is head down and phone
(14:39):
and iPad and this, And videogames.
There isn't doing this.
There isn't looking somebody inthe eye, shaking their hand.
I've, my kids and I've alwaystaught them just respect, that's
just out of respect.
But I go to restaurants or likeI had an experience at Home
Depot to pick something up.
that I bought from them, like apiece of furniture or whatever.
(15:02):
And they couldn't even help mefigure out how to get my stuff.
It was very interesting to seethat I finally was just like,
okay, I got this.
I just went in the back andasked the older person that was
working.
I was like, here's, I don'tknow.
They can't like, can you help mefigure this out?
And the guy started laughing andhe's yes, sorry about that.
(15:23):
I'm like, no, it's okay.
But.
It's really not, Because nowthese kids are in the workforce,
And that's the best that theycan do.
That's a problem because they'regoing to keep growing into
adulthood, And if we're notteaching basic skills, we have
to invest
Don Finley (15:42):
And,
Carmen Santiago Keenon (15:43):
being the technology with the basic
skills.
If what we're giving these kidsis only technology, we're going
to have to teach them.
The soft skills, the IQ throughtechnology, And we're going to
have to focus on upskilling ourcurrent employees and workforce
along with the education in theschool system around technology.
(16:07):
we are moving towards moreautomation, but I will say this
being in the it space, and I wasjust having this conversation
today, Earlier on a teammeeting, AI is still a very
scary thing for mostorganizations.
And most business lines and itlines.
So it's still very slow moving,Like we're still just taking
(16:28):
little chunks and pieces andplaying with automation.
And that's where things like RPAand other things come into play.
but full blown automation isstill very scary, say digital
transformation in the wrong roomand forget about it.
it's this curious space whereeveryone's AI is going to take
over and AI is going to takeover.
AI might have to take overcertain things that it makes
(16:48):
sense to.
But with that, we have to trainour workforce to work with the
technology because they go handin hand.
Again, bring it back.
You need the human in the loop.
Don Finley (17:00):
You need the human in the loop.
And I I had a guest on a whileago.
he's operations, but he's also,he's coaching college students
now.
So in retirement, he was like, Iwant to help that generation
out.
And the one thing that he said,he's AI is going to change the
skills necessary for theworkforce.
And the one thing that he'srecommending the students that
(17:21):
he mentors is to actually getmore managerial experience.
earlier on because you're bothgoing to be taking advice from
the AI, Like it's going toprovide you with insights and
possibly direction in how yougo.
But additionally, how you workwith it isn't so much from the
standpoint of being anindividual contributor anymore,
(17:41):
but you're now managingsomething that can create,
specifically talking about likeLLMs and generative AI.
The other side of that I findreally fascinating for how like
people will end up being usingthe tools is that dynamic of how
they learn how to use it.
one of the challenges that wesee when going into
(18:03):
organizations and saying thatdirty word of digital
transformation is Also sayingthat the first project that you
end up doing isn't going to havea positive ROI.
because we recommend thatbecause it's a digital
transformation that you need toget people comfortable with
using the tools and using it ina way that is non threatening to
(18:27):
them.
because once you can have themunderstand how to use it, then
you go and find the use cases.
that you actually want toimplement.
And one area that we're seeing,positive success is in customer
service, where human stays onthe phone with the person, but
(18:47):
the AI is listening to the call.
And like in a help deskscenario, the AI is pulling up
solutions.
for the problem that's beingdescribed, whereas the human is
forming the relationship andbeing the helper that they can
be and being that emotionalaspect that is rather helpful.
And so we're seeing that there'sa 40 percent increase in first
(19:08):
time
Carmen Santiago Keenon (19:09):
I love that.
Don Finley (19:10):
as well as a 25 percent increase in customer
satisfaction
Carmen Santiago Keenon (19:14):
and that's great because it allows
the human to be great at what itdoes, which is being human and
building the relationship.
Because it really sucks havingto be bogged down, part of the
bottleneck in that situation andpart of the reason why.
Sometimes, customers getfrustrated is because as you're
researching and trying to solvethe problem as a customer
service rep or what have you, isyou're doing this while you're
(19:37):
listening and you're trying tofigure it out and then you're
waiting and God forbid, you'rehaving technical difficulties
and, it's going to take.
Whatever.
And it's thinking and it'sthinking.
And you have to figure out thatdelicate balance between keeping
the customer still engaged andhappy while you're trying to
click away and type away andsolve their problem.
So I do think that's, that isthe perfect example of how AI
(20:02):
and tech and humans worktogether.
And that's what I'm hoping willcontinue to be the trend.
Don Finley (20:08):
want to say that I'm hopeful that's the trend, but
also that's the only place thatwe're actually applying
ourselves.
So like when we engage withcustomers, we want to make sure
that it actually, the AI in anagentic type of flow is used to
support.
The humans that are doing thejob.
And so we look at it more asaugmented intelligence than the
straight up artificial side ofit.
(20:29):
And additionally, that justleaves us with the opportunity
to say Hey, you're now creatinga workforce of people that will
understand how to interact withAI and they can help you in the
future to create more.
use cases for it.
one of our partner companies,their chief data science officer
we were just on a call togetherand he was going over one of
(20:51):
their solutions that they'vebeen working on.
And it is a chat component inwhich you can basically chat
with the entire company.
So all systems are integratedin, and then they have it broken
down into different functions.
But the different functions arebasically like, Hey, you're a
sale, an account executive, Theprimary data source for this is
(21:14):
past projects, industryresearch, and it will go in and
say, and this is a company thatdoes about a thousand projects a
year.
And so there's no way that onesingle account executive can
stay.
abreast and updated on all thethings that are going on.
But when they have anopportunity, let's say in
logistics and transportation,they just type in saying, Hey,
(21:36):
here's the company that I'mlooking at to create a pitch
for.
Can you give me projects thatare similar to this or related?
And it would be beneficial ifthey were on this tech stack it
just, it pulls all theinformation together for them.
So the next step on top of that.
is that's, query back and forth,Take that next idea is I have an
(22:00):
RFP, take all the informationfrom the different departments
and at least give me my firstdraft and then tell me who needs
to, verify this and create thattask list and let that go.
And so coordination aspect is nolonger a person going and trying
to find all the right people.
The first draft is provided tosomebody for review and editing
(22:24):
as well.
And then also all the sourcematerial is linked in it.
So you understand that it's notjust hallucinating based on,
what it's trying.
So I
Carmen Santiago Keenon (22:33):
I wonder how they
Don Finley (22:34):
there's a lot of
Carmen Santiago Keenon (22:34):
how did they train that to get that?
That's so interesting to me.
Don Finley (22:39):
So the solution is.
I wouldn't call it training.
Training is an interesting wordin this space, right?
Because you're talking aboutlike the foundational models of
chat GPT, or any of these largelanguage models, whether it's
Llama, GPT, Mistral, they'retrained on basically the
internet.
And no company has that amountof data to be able to train it
(23:01):
on that.
And additionally, training ismore of a one time exercise,
Like you train the model, yourelease the model, and it knows
what this system is doing is inreal time, it knows what's
happening.
That process is done under aframework called RAG.
It's retrieval augmentedgeneration, And so that
basically gives you like thelong term memory of a system.
(23:25):
And the whole premise is juston, the answer lies in the
question.
And so if you semantically embedthe question, you're likely
going to end up in a similarlatent space to the actual
answer, and then you can passthe source material into your,
larger language model, and haveit synthesize what the actual
(23:47):
response is based on all thesource material.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (23:51):
very interesting.
Don Finley (23:53):
it's, they're really cool solutions that are coming
out.
Now, I know we've touched onsome of this, but one thing that
I want to come to is, you talkedabout the Autism Care Project.
How do you see the AI being,helpful in that space or like
how we can apply technology to,the ones that we love that are
(24:14):
in a different state.
Yeah.
Carmen Santiago Keeno (24:15):
question.
So I sit on the board of theAutism Hero Project, and what we
do is we provide, we do a lot ofthings, but what we're best
known for is providing insurancepolicies for families that are
uninsured or uninsured that alsocovers their autism treatments,
which are very expensive.
but we also do communityengagements.
We train police officers on howto handle autistics and vice
(24:36):
versa.
And, a lot of inclusive events,theater, sports events, things
that are really inclusive thatyou can bring your kids and
families to and feelcomfortable.
so it's very interesting.
Again, I work with, RWS groupand they're a translation and
localization company.
but they are also.
a big AI tech company as well.
(24:58):
and they have many solutions andthey've been in the AI
automation tech space for 30years before AI was even a
thing.
And what was interesting andcurious for me to work, why I
wanted to work with them isbecause I do a lot around
accessibility and inclusivity,especially leaning in on
workforce inclusivity andaccessibility.
being somebody that wasdiagnosed later on in life with
(25:20):
being on the spectrum.
My son, whose son, we're stillworking through all of his,
things.
And, it, is very important to meto understand the human brain,
but also equip employers withthe tools to make things
accessible.
my girlfriend who is the VP ofthe Autism Hero Project, she
just got back from, Lockworld.
(25:40):
and she was telling meyesterday, actually, about this
tool that she just came across.
that works with helping peoplethat are nonverbal, that can't
speak, whether it's because, ofan injury or because of, being
nonverbal, autism, it helps themcommunicate.
and, she was saying that it wasvery progressive and, she had
(26:04):
told them, she's you should tryand embed this into, some of the
tools that the kids with autism,like her son, who's nonverbal
uses.
it'll help us, it might besomething that'll help them
communicate in real timequicker.
and so we are constantly seeinghow tools are becoming more
accessible for not just autism,but for disabilities in general.
(26:25):
and that is a beautiful thing.
I find that, autism, they callit a spectrum, but there's a lot
of comorbid things, So a lot ofus also have ADHD.
and that's, not on the spectrumyet.
I do feel like it might be downthe line.
They might add that one there,but it is what they call
comorbid with it.
So people that have ADHD are,the brain's also worked
(26:49):
similarly sometimes to peoplewith autism.
But some of the behaviors andlearning behaviors are similar.
and so that's why people getmisdiagnosed a lot with one or
the other, but we're findingthat there are now tools and
solutions that help createthings to make them accessible.
(27:09):
And that's why having, theseconversations within your
learning and development teamsis important.
Are we truly accessible?
if our customers and ouremployees, are they able to
truly engage with us?
Whether, what, outreach rightnow.
there is a big push in Europe.
they have their WCAG compliance,which is coming up in 2025.
Any business that is doingbusiness in Europe has to have,
(27:32):
their compliance aroundaccessibility.
I'm helping a lot of clients,we're helping them become, WCAG
compliant and accessible forpeople with disabilities and
learning abilities, differentlearning abilities because
everybody has the right to beequipped with information, And
that's really at the core ofthis, It's equipping other
humans with information thatthey need.
(27:55):
and so that's, what's exciting,is seeing these.
language models, these toolsreally leaning in on trying to
create solutions for people, andunderstanding that there's a
need,
Don Finley (28:08):
I think that's a beautiful point that you're
bringing up, that we can utilizethis technology to service a
population of people that needpersonalization because that,
their mind just worksdifferently than, others.
And like you described it, it'sa spectrum.
So we all possibly a little biton that spectrum.
I know I have ADHD as well, andI haven't been tested for
(28:31):
autism, but it's possible.
To, but in building technologyfor that population and allowing
for that personalization that'snecessary, I think we'll see
benefits across the board foreverybody as well to learn
people's individual learningstyles, to know how to
communicate with them, to beable to present information in a
way that is easier for people todigest or additionally
(28:53):
understand where they're at.
And was talking to a guest theother day and they were saying
that, looking at just even likeMBTI, Like you have people who
are thinkers and feelers.
And so you approach, addressinga problem or an opportunity in
different ways based on how thatperson processes.
Carmen Santiago Keenon (29:09):
IQ, And leadership IQ is a big thing.
I feel having the right leadersthat understand the importance
of accessibility, Because it'salso customer service, And, and
we're seeing it more and more,you're seeing it more on
websites.
My, city, my town where I livein, I just went on to pay a
(29:29):
utility bill and I was like, oh,I hit the accessibility thing
because they just did a newwebsite and I was like, wow,
they have options for peoplewith dyslexia.
I was like, chick, what doesthat look like?
but I was like, this is verycool to see what you really are
trying to think through.
Most human needs, and it's abeautiful thing.
Don Finley (29:48):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Carmen, thank you again forbeing on the show today.
Like I really appreciatedspending the time with you this
Thank you for tuning into TheHuman Code, sponsored by
Findustries, where we harness AIto elevate your business.
By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
growth, we turn opportunitiesinto reality.
(30:08):
Let Findustries be your guide toAI mastery, making success
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