May 14, 2024 • 42 mins
The Intersection of Technology, Humanity, and Customer Service with PV Kannan
In this episode of The Human Code, host Don Finley is joined by PV Kannan, CEO of 24/7 AI, to explore the evolution and impact of technology in customer service and its interplay with humanity. Kannan shares his journey and insights into how customer service has evolved to blend technology, data, and human empathy to improve customer experiences. He also delves into the role of AI in understanding customer intent and context, thereby enabling more effective and efficient service. The discussion also touches on the broader implications of AI on employment and the ongoing importance of human creativity and ingenuity. Kannan emphasizes a customer-centric approach to technology, advising listeners to consider the human impact of their work in tech.
00:00 Welcome to The Human Code: Unveiling the Intersection of Tech and Humanity
00:49 Spotlight on PV Kannan: The Journey of 24/7 AI and the Evolution of Customer Service
01:43 The Genesis of a Customer Service Visionary: PV Kannan's Inspirational Journey
04:26 Revolutionizing Customer Service: How Technology Empowers Human Connections
11:58 The Future of Customer Support: AI's Role in Enhancing Human Interaction
18:37 Navigating the Dynamics of Customer Service in the Digital Age
20:59 The Impact of Industry Dynamics on Customer Service Evolution
23:42 The Irony of Monopolies and Customer Service
24:05 The Dynamic Nature of Automation and Consumer Desires
24:39 Power Outages: A Global Perspective on Reliability and Response
26:59 Exploring the Impact of AI on Employment and Productivity
28:02 The Future of Work: AI, Productivity, and Human Ingenuity
30:04 AI and the Evolution of Global Workforce Dynamics
37:33 Harnessing Human Ingenuity in the Age of AI
40:01 Advice for the Next Generation: Embracing Change and Opportunity
42:19 Closing Thoughts: The Human Connection in AI Evolution
Sponsored by FINdustries
Hosted by Don Finley
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Finley (00:00):
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
So, whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:44):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
I'm here with PV Kannan, and heis the CEO of 24 7 AI, an
innovative company that is doingsome work with both generative
AI and also the customer serviceexperience and customer contact.
(01:06):
I have, an idea that we're justgoing to have an interesting
conversation about how the worldis interacting with AI and how a
company like 24 7, which hasbeen around for now 24 years,
congratulations,
PV Kannan (01:19):
Silence.
Don Finley (01:19):
has also morphed through that time and seeing how
technology and humanity playtogether.
So PV, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Really appreciate you taking thetime out of your schedule to, to
chat and, really curious about,what's gotten you to today.
PV Kannan (01:37):
First of all, thanks, Don, for having me on this
podcast.
Really excited to spend sometime with you.
you know, what got me here is,my interest in the area of
customer service.
it's one of these unique, thingsthat we have like mastered in
the last, few decades where,this didn't exist in in ancient
(01:57):
societies, right?
No one went around saying, Hey,I'm going to sell you something
and then you are bound by thisunwritten contract that anytime
I have a question, I can callyou and you will take care of
things for me, right?
So it's a relatively new thingand my interest came when I was
in college and, I grew up inChennai in India remember going
(02:19):
to the American consulate, theconsulates, of the U.
S.
across the world also typicallytend to have a large library.
where you can, access thelatest, books, and textbooks.
So, I happened to go to the,American consulate in, Chennai,
and happened upon this bookcalled In Search of Excellence,
which was, one of the bookswritten by Tom Peters.
(02:41):
Which was a runaway success inthe 80s.
I think it was the firstbusiness book to sell a million
copies or something like that.
Right.
So, it had this little book andI remember reading it and just
being influenced by how greatbrands were built just on this
notion of being there for thecustomer.
Right.
And my favorite story in thatbook was.
(03:03):
goes and returns a tire toNordstrom and the founder of
Nordstrom, the employee goes andsays, Hey, this guy wants to
return a tire.
And we don't even sell tires.
And apparently the founder goes,it's okay.
we are here for the customer.
Just take it back and give thema refund.
Right.
So extreme case of customerservice.
Right.
And then obviously, you know, afew years later I immigrated to
(03:26):
the U S and.
what was in the book was soamazing in real world.
Obviously that was not what'sgoing on in other brands, right?
So you add the of the world inthose days.
And then eventually in ourtoday, you have brands like
Southwest and, you know, a fewother brands that have this
culture of extreme passion forcustomers.
And I would put Target, Walmartin that bucket, and so.
(03:49):
You have all these brands, whenI came to this country, I was
like, oh, wow, look at all thesebrands doing it.
And, distinct ways, not everyonewith the same passion, but also
for me, it was that howtechnology played to, have no
role in this equation.
So when I immigrated in 91, itwas like, you call the 800
(04:10):
number and then go through this,roll of the dice experience,
right?
Don Finley (04:14):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (04:15):
got an experienced agent and it was just fantastic.
Or you just get a rookie agentand that person, is learning
from you, as opposed to yougetting what you want, right?
And it so happened, with, mybackground in software
development, I was assigned to aproject and were just launching
the project and it was in theanalysis phase and I put my hand
(04:36):
and I said, I will actually lookafter the customer service piece
of it, right?
And it caught me into the worldof, going and supporting a
contact center for electricutility in the Northwest, And
then I got immersed into it andthen I got hooked by it.
I really like that.
these centers are massive, manyemploy thousands of employees
(04:58):
and all day long, they take onthis task of, I mean, I always
say no one wakes up I'm going tocall AT& T today because I'm so
happy with the service they'reproviding, right?
By definition, a person callingin is either neutral, right?
And most often a little tickedoff,
Don Finley (05:16):
You got a problem that needs to be solved, right?
PV Kannan (05:19):
that needs to be done and you're coming in the way
actually of their day, so it'sfascinating that, a lot of the
thinking in the first companywas really How do we
systematically take away all thequestions you get asked?
and how can we leveragetechnology?
Why is it a phone call?
why can't it be a chat?
(05:39):
And why can't it be chat that'ssuper smart?
Why can't that conversation bewhere I know all the context of
what's going on, with youinteracting with my brand and my
assets like the website or theapp?
So I smartly leverage thatinformation because customers
already think that, you'rewatching them constantly.
You're like stealing all theirdata and things
Don Finley (06:01):
Yeah,
PV Kannan (06:02):
But do it for a positive intent, which is, I
don't want to ask you your name.
I don't need to ask you tovalidate.
You're already logged on to thewebsite.
You just started chatting withme.
I should say something like,Don, I noticed you're looking at
hotels in London, you justclicked to chat with me.
Tell me what you need, right?
And that's kind of the humanelement where technology kind of
(06:24):
supports, the agent and justproviding, you know, get to the,
you know, issue quickly.
I don't think any customer gainsanything when they're having
this conversation saying, know,what's your name?
Don.
Okay.
What's your account number?
you don't gain anything in thatperiod of time, right?
You want to start theconversation by saying, Hey, I'm
(06:44):
looking for a hotel, hotels inLondon.
I'm looking for is one that'sdog friendly and next to a park
where I can take it for a walk.
blah, blah, blah, and blah,blah, blah.
And the agent goes, give me acouple of minutes searches and
says, I think these let's take alook at these two locations.
Don Finley (07:02):
yes.
PV Kannan (07:03):
And so the idea for me, when I started the first
company and the second company,which is more on the services
side, combined with technologyis.
How do we bring it, how do weorchestrate data, technology,
and a human philosophy intodelivering a service both the
company, the brand that'sdelivering it and the consumer
(07:26):
receiving it go, this isdifferent and I want everything
like this,
Don Finley (07:30):
How are consumers,
PV Kannan (07:31):
of how we, you know, where I ended up here
Don Finley (07:33):
I love that, and I would love to dig into this
because I think the, the threepillars that you just defined,
like data tech and the humancentric component to it, that
can lay out a nice, like,technical foundation.
The experiential foundation ofit around, what makes, like,
passionate, customer servicework.
(07:54):
Where do you see that componentplaying out?
Which I guess is really thehuman centric aspect
PV Kannan (07:59):
Yes, yes.
Because that goes into, thingslike what is the psychology of
the consumer?
is a psychology agent, becauseoften forgotten in all of this,
you don't see that many books.
about what is the life of anagent, what do they go through,
how do they wake up and come towork.
I mean, that's biggest part ofthe success when someone is
(08:19):
chatting, right?
So I can enable an agent bysaying, Hey, Don is looking at
hotels in London.
But if I ignore thatinformation, it doesn't matter.
Or you tell them that, Hey, ourbrand represents being friendly.
And then, you say something andI'm like, Oh God, he's just
complaining.
And I don't know why I'm dealingwith this.
Seriously.
(08:40):
This is like a 1 percentproblem.
And why, why am I doing it?
Don Finley (08:44):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (08:45):
So, so I put it in that bucket because I think
just.
Dealing with folks who are inthe front lines and having
empathy for them from a designand data perspective reducing
the amount of work they need todo is actually part of that
human component for me.
It's not just the human beingthe customer, right?
(09:06):
It's like all the humansorchestrating it.
You have the frontline agentwho's talking to you.
You have supervisors who areensuring you're The operation is
running well, and then you havepeople who care about the
program going, how's it goingfor us today, right?
All of those layers need to kindof come together, but the key
component is really the customerand the person talking to them,
(09:29):
And, and that's where, bulk ofthe heavy lifting gets done.
Don Finley (09:33):
If I was to paraphrase, it kind of sounds
like you're coming across theidea that technology is an aid
that helps to reduce frictionamongst what is human
communication.
And kind of like people, yeah,looking to be of service to
another individual that is, thathas a need.
PV Kannan (09:52):
Absolutely.
Take away the friction for theconsumer in starting the
conversation.
And then take away all thefriction for the agent to
quickly understand what is itthat the customer is trying to
do.
And then once that happens,then, you let the, process
follow through,
Don Finley (10:10):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (10:11):
in, in all our data, looking just at the data and
going, what makes the customerwho started off kind of in a bad
mood or their voice or whatevertheir mannerism in the text was,
I'm annoyed.
And I'm starting thisconversation with you quickly
jump into Actually, this is notbad.
I'm getting what I want.
(10:32):
The biggest thing is, howquickly does the agent go, Don,
this is what you're trying todo.
Yes.
And you say, yes.
The sooner you get to thatpoint, hopefully less than 30
seconds.
You start feeling reassured,okay, I think I'm in good hands,
right?
And where the friction getsreally bad is, after a minute
(10:53):
into the conversation, both ofyou are still like talking,
Hindi and Greek.
Then you're like, both sides arelike, what's going on,
Don Finley (11:03):
Oh yeah.
And that's sometimes like theworst experience that you can
have is when you're just tryingto express your problem
PV Kannan (11:10):
Correct.
Don Finley (11:11):
being heard.
right?
Like, and I think that's kind ofa common,
PV Kannan (11:14):
exactly
Don Finley (11:15):
common human relationship as well, whether
it's with a company or not, butbeing able to share some bit of
language that expresses like,Hey, here's what I'm trying to
communicate.
And I can tell you some of myworst customer experience
problems have been when I'veexplained it to one person, Then
have to explain it.
to another person.
And I think we can allunderstand that That's usually
(11:38):
the cable company that thathappens with, right.
Like these are some areas thatwe've all kind of had some
frustration, but I will say itis getting better.
And on that note, knowing thatyou have that.
I mean 30 plus years it soundslike in
PV Kannan (11:55):
Yep.
Don Finley (11:56):
this field.
How has technology changed thoseconversations over that time?
PV Kannan (12:02):
Okay.
That's a great question and I'llgive you, some examples and then
we'll talk through it.
You just talked about the factthat the frustration of, telling
the agent what you're trying todo, right?
We call it intent, right?
And so the reason I wrote thebook, The Age of Intent is, I'm
very passionate about the factis instead of doing all the
bells and whistles withtechnology, which don't add much
(12:26):
value.
If brands can invest in gettingthe intent right the first time
without passing it off toanother agent, another agent,
another agent, where you'rerepeating the same story, right?
So story becomes an intent,right?
customer describes the problemas a story.
They go, Hey, I'm trying to gofrom A to B.
(12:46):
I'm trying to go for a wedding.
And then this happened and nowI'm unable to go, right?
It's a story.
You don't go and say, you don'tsay it in the brand's language
that there is a flightdisruption, right?
That's what the brand expectsyou to say.
They've trained the agentsaying, oh, if there is a flight
disruption, no.
Allow the customer to tell theirstory.
(13:07):
Let them take their time, right?
Part of it is also, You're kindof going, I went through this.
I need to share this withsomeone.
I can't call my mom because shedoesn't want to hear about it.
So I'm calling you, but anyway,you created the problem.
So you own it, right?
I'm telling you the story.
So the biggest technologydevelopment today in the AI is,
(13:29):
yeah, I can take a big storylike that and go flight
disruption.
Don is having a flightdisruption.
I, and then, oh, by the way,he's in Chicago.
Take all the pieces ofinformation.
today, technology can do that,which is why you're seeing maybe
the number of transfers go downbecause now we can send you to
the right person Who can handleit, right?
(13:52):
Because when you let customerspick the problem in crazy tree
based press one for this, ortell me your problem and you
say, hey, I was flying and thetechnology goes, oh, something
to do with flights.
Maybe he wants to buy a flight.
That's how rudimentary it was 15years back, right?
Today, the technology isadvanced where you tell a story
(14:13):
for three minutes and it goes,Okay, I got it.
It's actually about this.
I can send you to the rightperson.
But oh, by the way, I can takeall the stuff you told me and
put that context for the agent.
when the agent receives it, heor she knows, Hey, it's Don.
Don's having this issue.
Don's confirmation number isthis.
(14:35):
So you don't ask thosequestions, right?
So that's, that's how thatexperience is
Don Finley (14:39):
So this is
PV Kannan (14:39):
better and better.
Don Finley (14:41):
so my common experience Right.
15 years ago was Basicallyjamming on the zero button as
fast as I could, right.
Cause, cause it was, it wasgoing through the IVR tree
system and You didn't know, ifyou were gonna end up in the
right branch of the tree orwhatever, but you wanted to get
to a human almost as soon aspossible.
(15:02):
and then being part of thedevelopment of some of those
systems, like you saw the workthat went into trying to get the
tree right.
but like you're saying, thetechnology just wasn't as
consumer friendly.
Today, you're saying that youhave systems where it can listen
to me ramble on for threeminutes, and maybe I'm telling
you a story about my problem,but also sprinkled in there,
(15:24):
there's stories about my familyand the disruption that it's had
with that.
And you're a, the AI is pickingup on the salient points of
information and driving that tothe right person.
So now we're no longer talkingabout having the tree.
But more of like a community inwhich the AI is like the
conductor conductor of saying,you know what, you're better
(15:45):
served going to claims.
You're better served going tothis department.
And, and additionally pullingout the relevant context for
that,
PV Kannan (15:56):
Yes.
Don Finley (15:56):
okay, I'm going to need a list of your customers so
that if I ever have a problem, Iknow that I don't have to just
jam on the zero button
PV Kannan (16:06):
That's
Don Finley (16:06):
go, I'll actually like participate.
Yeah.
PV Kannan (16:09):
it goes back to what we talked about, right?
Technology, which is the AIpiece and blah, blah, blah,
which is able to translate astory into an intent.
data, which is the context,right?
Hey, the data is, the intent isthis, I need to know your
reservation number, confirmationnumber, account number.
I need to know where you are andI need to know how many
(16:30):
passengers are traveling.
All that data, the more I canpull it from the website when
you are searching, the more Ican pull out from the
conversation, you know, all thatis where, what makes the more
easy when it finally, the,action happens, right?
Otherwise, you're spending moretime doing that
Don Finley (16:49):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (16:50):
and less time actually solving the problem,
Don Finley (16:53):
And
PV Kannan (16:53):
And in the meanwhile, you get shuttled around because
you didn't land in the rightplace.
Don Finley (16:58):
well, and that's a, you're, you're hitting on this
and maybe if I can, I'm going totry to
PV Kannan (17:02):
Yep.
Don Finley (17:02):
spin it because I, I missed this at first and I want
to make sure that we, we getthis point across.
You're talking about a businessand a brand isn't five separate
things.
It's one.
Element to a consumer.
And so if you, if you're doingsomething on the website, that
brand needs to know when youcall their customer service
(17:24):
about that holistic experiencethat you're having in that
relationship.
And I think we're starting toget to the point where AI is
allowing us to have a cohesive.
Collection of information andprocessing along, allowing that
one brand experience to, to beprevalent through your
interaction.
PV Kannan (17:45):
That's correct.
And, you see a lot of it in, ifyou've ever used an electric
car, You kind of see, that'skind of the way I explain
sometimes to people.
You have the traditional car,you came in and if it's a little
bit, you paid a little bit more,you can press like I am number
two in the seat and then seatwill adjust, In an electric car,
because it's so software firststop developed, walk in just by
(18:08):
your phone and the, your phone'sproximity versus your spouse,
you are in the driver's seat, itgoes, oh, I need to adjust to PB
setting.
Right.
And I need to pair to his phone.
I need to play music from hisphone.
Right.
so that's what you get whentechnology gets smart you have
(18:29):
more ability to sense things.
Right.
Don Finley (18:31):
I love it.
PV Kannan (18:33):
And so I do think, and by the way, we are not done
yet.
Right.
Because then what is happening,increasingly is.
Hey, why do I need to take thisproblem to an agent if it's
simple enough?
Like, oh, you need your flightrerouted.
I know how to do it.
With modern APIs, I can gofigure out if a flight is
available and if it's quick, Ijust do it, right?
(18:55):
Now, there are harder issues andwe'll stay to the travel
example.
What if I'm traveling with myspouse, but I booked the
spouse's ticket using miles?
which don't have the privilegeas my ticket, which may have a
status.
And now the automated systemsays, okay, you get this, your
wife's going to travel tomorrow.
(19:16):
you're like, no, no, no, no, no.
And that's where an agent cango.
Okay.
that logic works for somepeople, but not you because
you're traveling as a family,even though you have two
different reservations, Becauseone was booked with miles and
one was paid.
Booked with, status and cash orwhatever, right?
And that's where even if it goesto an agent, if that's
understood, otherwise thinkabout even explaining it to an
(19:38):
agent, you're like, Hey, myflight got canceled.
Here's my thing.
Oh, by the way, I'm travelingwith my wife.
And the guy's like, wait, wait,wait, let me handle this.
No, you have to handle it
Don Finley (19:47):
Exactly.
This is one experience for me.
I know it's in your system.
It's two different things, butat the same time,
PV Kannan (19:53):
Yeah.
Don Finley (19:54):
hit a point on the AI side of this, where today's
systems are really good at kindof like breaking down
information, parsing it,categorizing it, showing like.
Early signs of reasoning andlogic in, in our LLMs, right?
There's other systems that wecan bring in that help to, to do
that.
But then we're talking aboutagenic AI, right?
(20:15):
Like where you're giving it agoal and it's looking to
actually like accomplish a taskfor you.
Not so much just get you to theright direction Yeah yeah
PV Kannan (20:33):
yeah,
Don Finley (20:39):
I've got two people on two different things, but
they're traveling together.
That, that's going to be one ofthose cases where it may either
be that the AI can handle itright away, or that it's going
to be something that it has yeahsee over time.
PV Kannan (20:53):
it is going to take and in the most fascinating
aspect of all.
of this is, people forget,customer service is directly
linked to rate of change in anindustry, right?
So electric utilities in the US,right?
Nothing has changed.
I mean, we have solar and all ofthat, but your relationship to
the electric utility is the sameas it was 25 years back, except
(21:18):
now you can view your billonline.
Big deal, right?
That's pretty much the onlychange.
There's nothing else that'schanged.
So if your power goes down, youcan call them and it'll say,
Hey, I recognize your number.
I'll note it down and I'll callyou back when power comes on.
And oftentimes it calls, 10minutes after the power has come
and you know it because you'rein
Don Finley (21:38):
Because you
PV Kannan (21:39):
So
Don Finley (21:39):
have, yeah, exactly.
PV Kannan (21:40):
so yes, smart meters, but smart meters is more helping
the utility than you.
Right, you know, so give that asan example, because if you look
at, the problem types that anagent has, forget solar power
for a minute.
It's pretty static to what anagent experienced 20 years back,
right?
(22:01):
And, and so these electricutilities don't have large
number of people in the callcenter because they don't need
to.
I mean, most customers knowpower goes out.
there's no big problem thatyou're going to call, like what
I just described with the UnitedAirlines or any airline, right?
Don Finley (22:16):
Yeah,
PV Kannan (22:16):
That doesn't happen, right?
So that industry by nature inthe US, it's different in
Europe.
It's a lot more dynamic.
you can buy power from multiplecompanies.
So it's a competitive field,right?
So in, in UK, for instance, havea lot more agents because they
have to retain their customerhere.
It's a monopoly, right?
(22:38):
So there it's like, a telephone,right?
A mobile phone, I can switchcarriers, right?
And so.
That adds a dynamic.
So when you think aboutautomated system, they'll do
really well in a monopoly,industry, because you can nail
the problem, like you said, andnothing changes or very little
(22:59):
changes, right?
Where I think, automated systemsstruggle is, the rate of change
is so high, where are you goingto learn that change?
Someone has to then manuallyprogram it.
And once you're manuallyprogramming it, you're messing
it up, right?
So that's why you have this gap.
And you can actually say whetheran industry is dynamic or not by
(23:22):
how much that gap exists.
The gap is actually a goodthing.
It means the consumers arebenefiting.
from the competition, right?
The day amazon.
com says I've automatedeverything, we know as
consumers, we are dead,
Don Finley (23:34):
that's true.
That really, that really istrue.
PV Kannan (23:37):
complete stranglehold on everything.
They don't need to innovate.
They don't need to do anythingbecause they're like, Hey, this
is what we give you.
And that's what monopolies tellyou, right?
This is what you have.
not going to do anything foryou.
I'm not going to come with anyclever idea.
And all I'll do is every yearI'll increase your prices,
right?
So,
Don Finley (23:56):
That's
PV Kannan (23:57):
in a way, very ironically, bad customer service
is not really bad unless it's anincompetent company.
when automation doesn't serveneeds, it means the industry is
actually dynamic and things arechanging, right?
And, So that's something to keepin mind because people are like,
why is it not perfect?
I'm like, you don't want it tobe perfect.
That's a bad thing as a consumerto desire.
(24:21):
Like, I want every problem to besolved.
Good.
Then you're working for a,you're working for a monopoly.
You're not a customer.
Don Finley (24:27):
cool.
And that's kind of the thing.
My world doesn't get betterunless I have problems.
Problems and opportunities arethe exact same thing.
It's just your perspective asfar as it goes.
Now.
When my power goes out, thatfeels like a real problem for
me.
It's definitely an opportunityfor the power company.
And granted that doesn't happen.
(24:48):
I mean, in the last 10 years, Ithink it's happened once, right?
Like very, there's very reliableservices in that area.
And like you're saying, it'ssomewhat of a monopoly.
Because we don't
PV Kannan (25:00):
It is.
Don Finley (25:01):
There isn't a customer service need because it
is reliable.
And additionally, there isn'tcompetition for it.
So we might be paying a littlebit more.
PV Kannan (25:09):
And, and Don, I forgot you're in Philadelphia.
I am in California.
So our power situation is alittle
Don Finley (25:14):
Oh,
PV Kannan (25:14):
we do have frequent power cuts.
Don Finley (25:16):
that's right.
PV Kannan (25:18):
That's why I gave you that example.
And, now I've moved to solar, bythe way, because the power
company is not responsive.
They're a monopoly, right?
They really don't care.
They'll be like, Hey, we thinksome fire is going to come,
which is going to cut it offproactively.
you're not doing it proactively.
You're just hurting me.
if you are proactive, you'llsay, Hey, it's, it's, the fire
is one mile away.
(25:38):
I'm going to cut it or 10 milesaway, right?
a fire, fire, fire, 600 milesaway, why are you cutting my
power?
Right?
anyway, so my point is, you'reright.
Maybe for you and the viewersprobably, or the listeners, the
electric utility may not be.
That's relevant.
Unless you live in California,then the example will hit
Don Finley (25:58):
We at California also, I have some team members
in Ecuador and currently they'recutting power for a quarter of
the country at a time
PV Kannan (26:08):
Wow.
Don Finley (26:08):
of six hours every day.
Right.
They do three hours overnightand three hours during it.
So some of our team members areworking from the mall because
it's the only place they couldget power and internet at the
same time.
And like, it is fascinating.
We also have team members inEgypt and power outages are
somewhat, they're frequentenough to where it's not, you
(26:32):
know, unheard of, right?
Like, so it's very much in thatsame space, but I think it, it
goes to show both theresponsibility of the brand and
additionally of the team.
Your customer serviceorganization, as far as how you
communicate that.
And then the relationships thatyou build.
What I love about the workyou're doing is that it has a
very, there's always that human.
(26:52):
Connection to it.
Now,
PV Kannan (26:55):
Right.
Mm
Don Finley (26:58):
fear in the, in the space today based on like what
we're seeing with AI.
we've been doing AI developmentfor the last over 10 years now.
and, and I've, I personally havemy undergrad degree with
computer science and a focus onAI.
And so I knew about neural nets
PV Kannan (27:15):
Right.
Don Finley (27:20):
really be doing it.
In the last two years, my, myown personal opinion on where I
thought we were going toautomate away jobs was going to
be in trucking, self driving.
And then additionally, in moreblue collar type of jobs.
Well, what we've seen with chatGPT and the explosion of LLMs
(27:42):
has really pushed that paradigmto like, really a lot of white
collar jobs are going tobenefit,
PV Kannan (27:47):
Yep.
Don Finley (27:47):
but also demand could disappear for some of
them.
Where do you see the worldplaying out in regards to how AI
is going to impact theemployment market?
PV Kannan (27:58):
Right.
Right.
So good question.
Now, whenever we talk aboutproductivity improvement in
general, right?
Implicit in that is if a companyhas 100 employees and
productivity improves 20%, thenby definition, 20 people can be
removed from the system.
Right?
Don Finley (28:18):
I mean, that's a,
PV Kannan (28:19):
and so.
Don Finley (28:19):
do you really buy into that?
PV Kannan (28:21):
No, I'm just saying if, if indeed, really, and where
it's here is a funny thing, Don,like other than contact centers,
you really cannot measureproductivity in many jobs.
talk about productivity.
You cannot measure it, right?
And so if I'm a developer andChatGPT helps me develop faster
by 40%, I may not give it backto the company.
(28:41):
I may give it, give that time towatching Netflix.
Don Finley (28:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
PV Kannan (28:46):
So, because you as a manager said, Hey, PV, I need
this done by Tuesday.
And I'm done by Monday.
I may not call you and say, Hey,I'm done.
Right?
So, you know, there is not thelevel of measurement unless you
start monitoring.
checking like, hey, because wecan monitor everything too today
Don Finley (29:04):
Exactly.
We can totally monitor whatpeople are doing.
We've, we're switching ourcompensation structure around
our development teams for morebeing value based than trying to
Right and somewhat even on oursalary side, providing bonuses
for productivity enhancement sothat both sides feel it.
The pushback that I have on whenwe say that a project is going
(29:25):
to save, let's say 40% Mm hmmwe've done these projects
before, I have a customer thatsaved 80 percent on their labor
because we implemented an IOTplatform that allowed them to
know exactly where things were.
Not one person was fired fromthat company.
PV Kannan (29:43):
No, that's, that's great.
And also whether the company isgrowing or not,
Don Finley (29:47):
And
PV Kannan (29:47):
so,
Don Finley (29:48):
things played into it.
They were understaffedsignificantly.
PV Kannan (29:52):
yes,
Don Finley (29:52):
And then additionally, there was also
work that wasn't getting donethat they wanted to do.
And so they basically shiftedthe roles of those people.
PV Kannan (30:02):
correct.
Don Finley (30:03):
do you see AI changing any of this kind of
like calculus or?
PV Kannan (30:07):
look, the one thing I'm very confident is nothing
dramatic is going to happen.
I immigrated in the 90s, therewas a book written in, I believe
it was 95 or 96, you can Googleit and look at it.
It's called The Depth of theAmerican Programmer or something
like that.
And it basically said, people inIndia and China can program as
(30:28):
good as anyone in the U.
S.
So, U.
S.
companies are going to go and,you know, do everything there.
And it's going to be horrible,blah, blah, blah.
and it created a sensation,briefly in business week and
became a little bit of like, Ithink business week wrote an
article going to Microsoft andsay, how many employees do you
have in India?
How many do you have in China?
And all of that took a littlenasty turn, you know, to the
(30:49):
side.
But we know what it is 30 yearslater, right?
we can't find developers inSilicon
Don Finley (30:56):
Hmm.
PV Kannan (30:56):
And we have, millions of people in India and China
actually working, for U.
S.
companies like Microsoft and IBMand others.
And yet we still have a laborshortage, right?
So we have developers inToronto, Bangalore, and San
Jose.
Everywhere we, have more openpositions than filled ones,
right?
This is 30 years later.
So I always caution people whenthey look at a piece of
(31:19):
technology, and for metechnology like in our spaces,
it's technology, data, andpeople, right?
And so, you know, back, I don'tthink anything dramatic is going
to happen as, people alwaysenvision.
what happened if we only reliedon U.
S.
programmers?
And we took a stand in the 90safter reading that book.
(31:39):
can be offshored, right?
We would have zero globalcompanies selling technology
because we wouldn't have had thetalent to develop products to,
meet the needs of every countryin the world,
Don Finley (31:51):
Mm
PV Kannan (31:52):
So we couldn't have developed, Chinese version of
windows.
have developed, versions forEurope, right?
So we couldn't have, had theman, manpower to even.
Take care of all thefunctionality requirements from
different societies and going,Oh, in Europe, they do things
differently.
So I need to, have the UIaccommodate some things.
(32:13):
You needed the manpower simplyto say, to build everything that
we have today, if we had onlyrelied on US, would be no Tesla,
there would be no Chad GPT,because we would have moved at
such a slow pace, right?
So for me, the better questionto ask is, What are things that
are going to happen if I haveunlimited labor for almost free,
(32:34):
right?
So if you are a company andsomeone comes and says, what,
what, what's constraining you?
Well, I have 5, 000 guys and I'mdeveloping 10 products.
Can you develop 25 products?
now that pretty much everythingis like running water, what
would you do?
Don Finley (32:48):
hmm.
PV Kannan (32:49):
And, and that's what happened with running water,
right?
At one point we didn't haveenough to drink.
And, you know, now we haveenough that we do golf courses
and plant vineyards and dosomething,
Don Finley (33:00):
Yeah,
PV Kannan (33:01):
I would view it that way because every time, in the
last 30 years, which is where Isee more technology change
happen than the, preceding 50,not to underplay the impact of
what the technologies mean,right?
but, I always say wheneverpeople have said it's going to
like end jobs or all this thingis going to go away, it always
(33:21):
takes a turn, a surprising turn,an unexpected turn.
for me, I would rather thinkabout that rather than go, let
me tell you in 24 7, we areleveraging ChatGPT for.
code development for, projects,right?
we have no plans to reduce ourheadcount, right?
It's more, it's more about,we're like platforms.
(33:43):
We're doing things which wecouldn't have done.
Don Finley (33:45):
exactly what we were talking about, right?
Like, even if you have a 50percent increase in
productivity, you still have
PV Kannan (33:52):
up using it
Don Finley (33:53):
exactly.
And you want to retain thattalent
PV Kannan (33:56):
and
Don Finley (33:56):
that you have, right?
PV Kannan (33:58):
on the other hand, if you're a company going through
trouble, then you may do cuts,right?
Maybe your business is not goingto be around.
Because technology is takingaway your, your market.
Don Finley (34:10):
might just be right sizing.
To, to make the need,
PV Kannan (34:14):
Yes,
Don Finley (34:24):
driven to zero, which effectively is what we're
doing with AI, right?
Like the opportunity for you tobe building something that was
never imagined before, is there.
is going to be there.
And just like we would neverhave envisioned Instagram before
we had a smartphone and beforewe had, 4G were really the two
(34:45):
things that helped to, to bringthat to market.
There's opportunities for AIand, you know, business and
everybody.
And I, that didn't exist twoyears ago.
But I also am really excited foryour field, because you're
sitting at the forefront ofreally what is that human
(35:05):
interaction with what we'redoing.
And so like you're usingChachiBT for some of your
development.
I imagine you're using LLMs insome of your customer service as
well.
PV Kannan (35:15):
Yep, for the, figuring out intent, we just
talked about it.
So we are improving the intentrecognition.
layering LLMs, right?
To the older, to the older AImodels.
So, and we are squeezing morejuice out of it,
Don Finley (35:29):
Mm.
PV Kannan (35:29):
So you're right.
We're going to be touching everypart of our business from
finance to HR to go, Hey, how dowe leverage
Don Finley (35:36):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (35:36):
Right.
And then I'm telling people,then think about, expansively,
now that you've got thisadditional capacity in your
department, what else can we do?
Right.
And so that's my view that, Idon't think look, the other, the
other thing is if you playaround the pessimistic, path
for, and play it out, what,where do we go?
(35:58):
So 80 percent of the people inany country, forget about the
US, is unemployed and, the thingI hate about the universal basic
income is not that we don't wantto help people.
It's like who decides I am partof the 20 percent that will
think and work.
And you're part of the 80percent who should stay home and
I'll just send you a check.
(36:19):
I
Don Finley (36:20):
I gotta say,
PV Kannan (36:20):
much
Don Finley (36:20):
look,
PV Kannan (36:21):
how much arrogance should you have to say?
I mean, that to me is the oldfeudalism.
That's the old caste system.
Right?
Don Finley (36:29):
I, I think that universal, I love that
interpretation of it because itis, I see that point of view,
PV Kannan (36:36):
I totally
Don Finley (36:37):
but there's also, if you look at the research of what
happens from UBI, as far as likeyou, if you just give everybody,
it's everybody gets the money,right?
But But what you find is that,parents end up staying home with
their children.
Right?
Then, additionally, people whomay not have been in a career
that, they like to go back toschool.
(36:58):
They, they go for an education.
I don't know if it's the rightway to go, but I do agree with
you.
that like, there is kind of thisproblem of if we get to a point
of let's say 30 to 50 percentunemployment, which is probably,
I mean, that's not the worstcase scenario.
but if there is an innovationthat comes by and since
technology is going faster andas far as the rate of change
(37:21):
goes, which is bringing on moreinnovation for us.
We're going to have to innovateon our social services as well.
But in the same,
PV Kannan (37:29):
that, sorry.
I agree with
Don Finley (37:32):
but I also want to bring this back because what
you've been sharing has beenabsolutely amazing from the
standpoint of like, there isopportunity here and there is
opportunity for everyone inthis.
PV Kannan (37:43):
Exactly.
I
Don Finley (37:44):
the place to be.
PV Kannan (37:45):
I think spending too much time on this, going to take
away jobs and all of that isjust a waste of time, right?
It's going to play out.
And the way it's going to playout is more smart people are
going to go.
I'm creating excessive excesscapacity that now I can leverage
and at a cost point that I canactually invent more things.
Thanks.
(38:05):
And we underestimated everysingle time.
Our society has gone throughmassive changes, right?
Everyone was in the fieldgetting food for mostly for
themselves,
Don Finley (38:16):
We didn't have a nine to five.
PV Kannan (38:17):
population.
Yeah.
And then what happened?
Like in less than 50 years, 100people working in the field
already, 95 5, suddenly 95 is insomewhere else and automation
took.
No one sat there and like, if,if the society didn't evolve for
the farmers.
To go do other things.
Of course, we would have rightedback then.
(38:39):
We may have never got to thispoint.
But what is great about the wayhuman beings think and act and
do is we take always thatsurplus and it forward and grow
it as opposed to going intothis, Hey, we've fired all the
farmers.
Great.
Who's going to eat your grain?
You're fired all the farmers.
Don Finley (38:57):
Exactly.
PV Kannan (38:59):
it's that thinking that just gets me,
Don Finley (39:02):
And I, I love this because we're talking about
something that's humaningenuity, right?
Like it's,
PV Kannan (39:07):
Mm hmm.
Don Finley (39:08):
that factor that kind of comes in and ingenuity.
doesn't have to have the wordhuman in front of it, but it
seems so core to what we'retalking about where there's
opportunities in the problem.
And it goes back to that stoicprinciple of the obstacle is the
way, as well.
And so like, you see theproblem, we solve the problem.
And like, I've, we probably bothplay around with a lot of AI and
(39:32):
like, I haven't seen that sortof like creative push from an AI
to really kind of like own aproblem, own an opportunity and
be like the champion.
maybe we'll get there someday,but I think this is still where
the opportunity exists of beingable to be someone that can
garner resources and understandhow to put them together.
(39:52):
for anybody who's like of ouryounger listeners.
Kind of thing.
Like let's say college age,getting prepared for their
career.
What advice do you have in thistime of change?
PV Kannan (40:03):
I think when, you know, I was younger and
fascinated with technology, Ispent way too much time, you
know, obsessing abouttechnology, which I think is
because you want to learn it.
You want to master it.
Right.
I always tell young people to doit.
of look at the, the human sideattached to the technology,
whatever it is, right?
I'm using a computer.
(40:23):
I'm a user.
What, what is my point of view,right?
It doesn't matter everywhere.
There is a human counterpart totechnology, right?
And just understanding it, howit impacts the different
stakeholders.
is something you appreciate muchlater in life from experience,
right?
You know, in my 20s, I used tobe like walking around talking
(40:44):
to clients and say, thistechnology is fascinating.
I'm like, how come you're notgetting it?
We should just move to thiswithout like going, why is a
business in business?
It's there to serve a customer.
And what is it that theyactually get from your product?
And how do I make that productbetter?
How do I make that servicebetter?
How do I do?
And then in solving thoseproblems, then you go, this
(41:05):
technology is awesome for doingthat, Versus what we are doing
today, again, with LLMs, whichis, you know, this amazing
technology, now let me go do ithere, here.
No, what, what is it that it'sgoing to do?
End of the day, if I get acrappy product from you, I don't
care if you use the LLMs fordesign, if your product is
crappy, right?
(41:26):
I don't care if you use LLM foradvertisement, if your service
doesn't work, right?
And so I, I would advise, youknow, the young people to really
like focus on what are theproblems that are being solved?
What are the needs that arebeing met and unmet?
And spend time and workbackwards towards the
technology, right?
Don Finley (41:46):
that's fantastic.
I really appreciate the customerfocus, the human focus on this
and kind of like technology isjust an aid.
to get you in there.
And so that's really insightful.
Thank you for sharing.
PV Kannan (41:59):
Thanks,
Don Finley (41:59):
if our listeners wanted to reach out, is there
any way to contact you?
PV Kannan (42:03):
I'm available on social media, and so I'm very
responsive if you reach out onLinkedIn, Twitter, whatever is
your favorite
Don Finley (42:11):
Fantastic.
PV Kannan (42:12):
media platform, so.
Don Finley (42:16):
Really appreciate you taking the time.
And I think the one thing thatI'm getting from this today is
it's still all about the humanconnection.
PV Kannan (42:25):
Absolutely.
Don Finley (42:26):
you.
PV Kannan (42:27):
Thanks, Don.
Don Finley (42:29):
Thank you for tuning into The Human Code, sponsored
by FINdustries, where we harnessAI to elevate your business.
By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
growth, we turn opportunitiesinto reality.
Let FINdustries be your guide toAI mastery, making success
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(42:50):
co.
Welcome to The Human Code, the podcast where
technology meets humanity, andthe future is shaped by the
leaders and innovators of today.
I'm your host, Don Finley,inviting you on a journey
through the fascinating world oftech, leadership, and personal
growth.
Here, we delve into the storiesof visionary minds, Who are not
only driving technologicaladvancement, but also embodying
(00:23):
the personal journeys andinsights that inspire us all.
Each episode, we explore theintersections where human
ingenuity meets the cutting edgeof technology, unpacking the
experiences, challenges, andtriumphs that define our era.
So, whether you are a techenthusiast, an inspiring
entrepreneur, or simply curiousabout the human narratives
(00:44):
behind the digital revolution,you're in the right place.
Welcome to The Human Code.
I'm here with PV Kannan, and heis the CEO of 24 7 AI, an
innovative company that is doingsome work with both generative
AI and also the customer serviceexperience and customer contact.
(01:06):
I have, an idea that we're justgoing to have an interesting
conversation about how the worldis interacting with AI and how a
company like 24 7, which hasbeen around for now 24 years,
congratulations,
PV Kannan (01:19):
Silence.
Don Finley (01:19):
has also morphed through that time and seeing how
technology and humanity playtogether.
So PV, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Really appreciate you taking thetime out of your schedule to, to
chat and, really curious about,what's gotten you to today.
PV Kannan (01:37):
First of all, thanks, Don, for having me on this
podcast.
Really excited to spend sometime with you.
you know, what got me here is,my interest in the area of
customer service.
it's one of these unique, thingsthat we have like mastered in
the last, few decades where,this didn't exist in in ancient
(01:57):
societies, right?
No one went around saying, Hey,I'm going to sell you something
and then you are bound by thisunwritten contract that anytime
I have a question, I can callyou and you will take care of
things for me, right?
So it's a relatively new thingand my interest came when I was
in college and, I grew up inChennai in India remember going
(02:19):
to the American consulate, theconsulates, of the U.
S.
across the world also typicallytend to have a large library.
where you can, access thelatest, books, and textbooks.
So, I happened to go to the,American consulate in, Chennai,
and happened upon this bookcalled In Search of Excellence,
which was, one of the bookswritten by Tom Peters.
(02:41):
Which was a runaway success inthe 80s.
I think it was the firstbusiness book to sell a million
copies or something like that.
Right.
So, it had this little book andI remember reading it and just
being influenced by how greatbrands were built just on this
notion of being there for thecustomer.
Right.
And my favorite story in thatbook was.
(03:03):
goes and returns a tire toNordstrom and the founder of
Nordstrom, the employee goes andsays, Hey, this guy wants to
return a tire.
And we don't even sell tires.
And apparently the founder goes,it's okay.
we are here for the customer.
Just take it back and give thema refund.
Right.
So extreme case of customerservice.
Right.
And then obviously, you know, afew years later I immigrated to
(03:26):
the U S and.
what was in the book was soamazing in real world.
Obviously that was not what'sgoing on in other brands, right?
So you add the of the world inthose days.
And then eventually in ourtoday, you have brands like
Southwest and, you know, a fewother brands that have this
culture of extreme passion forcustomers.
And I would put Target, Walmartin that bucket, and so.
(03:49):
You have all these brands, whenI came to this country, I was
like, oh, wow, look at all thesebrands doing it.
And, distinct ways, not everyonewith the same passion, but also
for me, it was that howtechnology played to, have no
role in this equation.
So when I immigrated in 91, itwas like, you call the 800
(04:10):
number and then go through this,roll of the dice experience,
right?
Don Finley (04:14):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (04:15):
got an experienced agent and it was just fantastic.
Or you just get a rookie agentand that person, is learning
from you, as opposed to yougetting what you want, right?
And it so happened, with, mybackground in software
development, I was assigned to aproject and were just launching
the project and it was in theanalysis phase and I put my hand
(04:36):
and I said, I will actually lookafter the customer service piece
of it, right?
And it caught me into the worldof, going and supporting a
contact center for electricutility in the Northwest, And
then I got immersed into it andthen I got hooked by it.
I really like that.
these centers are massive, manyemploy thousands of employees
(04:58):
and all day long, they take onthis task of, I mean, I always
say no one wakes up I'm going tocall AT& T today because I'm so
happy with the service they'reproviding, right?
By definition, a person callingin is either neutral, right?
And most often a little tickedoff,
Don Finley (05:16):
You got a problem that needs to be solved, right?
PV Kannan (05:19):
that needs to be done and you're coming in the way
actually of their day, so it'sfascinating that, a lot of the
thinking in the first companywas really How do we
systematically take away all thequestions you get asked?
and how can we leveragetechnology?
Why is it a phone call?
why can't it be a chat?
(05:39):
And why can't it be chat that'ssuper smart?
Why can't that conversation bewhere I know all the context of
what's going on, with youinteracting with my brand and my
assets like the website or theapp?
So I smartly leverage thatinformation because customers
already think that, you'rewatching them constantly.
You're like stealing all theirdata and things
Don Finley (06:01):
Yeah,
PV Kannan (06:02):
But do it for a positive intent, which is, I
don't want to ask you your name.
I don't need to ask you tovalidate.
You're already logged on to thewebsite.
You just started chatting withme.
I should say something like,Don, I noticed you're looking at
hotels in London, you justclicked to chat with me.
Tell me what you need, right?
And that's kind of the humanelement where technology kind of
(06:24):
supports, the agent and justproviding, you know, get to the,
you know, issue quickly.
I don't think any customer gainsanything when they're having
this conversation saying, know,what's your name?
Don.
Okay.
What's your account number?
you don't gain anything in thatperiod of time, right?
You want to start theconversation by saying, Hey, I'm
(06:44):
looking for a hotel, hotels inLondon.
I'm looking for is one that'sdog friendly and next to a park
where I can take it for a walk.
blah, blah, blah, and blah,blah, blah.
And the agent goes, give me acouple of minutes searches and
says, I think these let's take alook at these two locations.
Don Finley (07:02):
yes.
PV Kannan (07:03):
And so the idea for me, when I started the first
company and the second company,which is more on the services
side, combined with technologyis.
How do we bring it, how do weorchestrate data, technology,
and a human philosophy intodelivering a service both the
company, the brand that'sdelivering it and the consumer
(07:26):
receiving it go, this isdifferent and I want everything
like this,
Don Finley (07:30):
How are consumers,
PV Kannan (07:31):
of how we, you know, where I ended up here
Don Finley (07:33):
I love that, and I would love to dig into this
because I think the, the threepillars that you just defined,
like data tech and the humancentric component to it, that
can lay out a nice, like,technical foundation.
The experiential foundation ofit around, what makes, like,
passionate, customer servicework.
(07:54):
Where do you see that componentplaying out?
Which I guess is really thehuman centric aspect
PV Kannan (07:59):
Yes, yes.
Because that goes into, thingslike what is the psychology of
the consumer?
is a psychology agent, becauseoften forgotten in all of this,
you don't see that many books.
about what is the life of anagent, what do they go through,
how do they wake up and come towork.
I mean, that's biggest part ofthe success when someone is
(08:19):
chatting, right?
So I can enable an agent bysaying, Hey, Don is looking at
hotels in London.
But if I ignore thatinformation, it doesn't matter.
Or you tell them that, Hey, ourbrand represents being friendly.
And then, you say something andI'm like, Oh God, he's just
complaining.
And I don't know why I'm dealingwith this.
Seriously.
(08:40):
This is like a 1 percentproblem.
And why, why am I doing it?
Don Finley (08:44):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (08:45):
So, so I put it in that bucket because I think
just.
Dealing with folks who are inthe front lines and having
empathy for them from a designand data perspective reducing
the amount of work they need todo is actually part of that
human component for me.
It's not just the human beingthe customer, right?
(09:06):
It's like all the humansorchestrating it.
You have the frontline agentwho's talking to you.
You have supervisors who areensuring you're The operation is
running well, and then you havepeople who care about the
program going, how's it goingfor us today, right?
All of those layers need to kindof come together, but the key
component is really the customerand the person talking to them,
(09:29):
And, and that's where, bulk ofthe heavy lifting gets done.
Don Finley (09:33):
If I was to paraphrase, it kind of sounds
like you're coming across theidea that technology is an aid
that helps to reduce frictionamongst what is human
communication.
And kind of like people, yeah,looking to be of service to
another individual that is, thathas a need.
PV Kannan (09:52):
Absolutely.
Take away the friction for theconsumer in starting the
conversation.
And then take away all thefriction for the agent to
quickly understand what is itthat the customer is trying to
do.
And then once that happens,then, you let the, process
follow through,
Don Finley (10:10):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (10:11):
in, in all our data, looking just at the data and
going, what makes the customerwho started off kind of in a bad
mood or their voice or whatevertheir mannerism in the text was,
I'm annoyed.
And I'm starting thisconversation with you quickly
jump into Actually, this is notbad.
I'm getting what I want.
(10:32):
The biggest thing is, howquickly does the agent go, Don,
this is what you're trying todo.
Yes.
And you say, yes.
The sooner you get to thatpoint, hopefully less than 30
seconds.
You start feeling reassured,okay, I think I'm in good hands,
right?
And where the friction getsreally bad is, after a minute
(10:53):
into the conversation, both ofyou are still like talking,
Hindi and Greek.
Then you're like, both sides arelike, what's going on,
Don Finley (11:03):
Oh yeah.
And that's sometimes like theworst experience that you can
have is when you're just tryingto express your problem
PV Kannan (11:10):
Correct.
Don Finley (11:11):
being heard.
right?
Like, and I think that's kind ofa common,
PV Kannan (11:14):
exactly
Don Finley (11:15):
common human relationship as well, whether
it's with a company or not, butbeing able to share some bit of
language that expresses like,Hey, here's what I'm trying to
communicate.
And I can tell you some of myworst customer experience
problems have been when I'veexplained it to one person, Then
have to explain it.
to another person.
And I think we can allunderstand that That's usually
(11:38):
the cable company that thathappens with, right.
Like these are some areas thatwe've all kind of had some
frustration, but I will say itis getting better.
And on that note, knowing thatyou have that.
I mean 30 plus years it soundslike in
PV Kannan (11:55):
Yep.
Don Finley (11:56):
this field.
How has technology changed thoseconversations over that time?
PV Kannan (12:02):
Okay.
That's a great question and I'llgive you, some examples and then
we'll talk through it.
You just talked about the factthat the frustration of, telling
the agent what you're trying todo, right?
We call it intent, right?
And so the reason I wrote thebook, The Age of Intent is, I'm
very passionate about the factis instead of doing all the
bells and whistles withtechnology, which don't add much
(12:26):
value.
If brands can invest in gettingthe intent right the first time
without passing it off toanother agent, another agent,
another agent, where you'rerepeating the same story, right?
So story becomes an intent,right?
customer describes the problemas a story.
They go, Hey, I'm trying to gofrom A to B.
(12:46):
I'm trying to go for a wedding.
And then this happened and nowI'm unable to go, right?
It's a story.
You don't go and say, you don'tsay it in the brand's language
that there is a flightdisruption, right?
That's what the brand expectsyou to say.
They've trained the agentsaying, oh, if there is a flight
disruption, no.
Allow the customer to tell theirstory.
(13:07):
Let them take their time, right?
Part of it is also, You're kindof going, I went through this.
I need to share this withsomeone.
I can't call my mom because shedoesn't want to hear about it.
So I'm calling you, but anyway,you created the problem.
So you own it, right?
I'm telling you the story.
So the biggest technologydevelopment today in the AI is,
(13:29):
yeah, I can take a big storylike that and go flight
disruption.
Don is having a flightdisruption.
I, and then, oh, by the way,he's in Chicago.
Take all the pieces ofinformation.
today, technology can do that,which is why you're seeing maybe
the number of transfers go downbecause now we can send you to
the right person Who can handleit, right?
(13:52):
Because when you let customerspick the problem in crazy tree
based press one for this, ortell me your problem and you
say, hey, I was flying and thetechnology goes, oh, something
to do with flights.
Maybe he wants to buy a flight.
That's how rudimentary it was 15years back, right?
Today, the technology isadvanced where you tell a story
(14:13):
for three minutes and it goes,Okay, I got it.
It's actually about this.
I can send you to the rightperson.
But oh, by the way, I can takeall the stuff you told me and
put that context for the agent.
when the agent receives it, heor she knows, Hey, it's Don.
Don's having this issue.
Don's confirmation number isthis.
(14:35):
So you don't ask thosequestions, right?
So that's, that's how thatexperience is
Don Finley (14:39):
So this is
PV Kannan (14:39):
better and better.
Don Finley (14:41):
so my common experience Right.
15 years ago was Basicallyjamming on the zero button as
fast as I could, right.
Cause, cause it was, it wasgoing through the IVR tree
system and You didn't know, ifyou were gonna end up in the
right branch of the tree orwhatever, but you wanted to get
to a human almost as soon aspossible.
(15:02):
and then being part of thedevelopment of some of those
systems, like you saw the workthat went into trying to get the
tree right.
but like you're saying, thetechnology just wasn't as
consumer friendly.
Today, you're saying that youhave systems where it can listen
to me ramble on for threeminutes, and maybe I'm telling
you a story about my problem,but also sprinkled in there,
(15:24):
there's stories about my familyand the disruption that it's had
with that.
And you're a, the AI is pickingup on the salient points of
information and driving that tothe right person.
So now we're no longer talkingabout having the tree.
But more of like a community inwhich the AI is like the
conductor conductor of saying,you know what, you're better
(15:45):
served going to claims.
You're better served going tothis department.
And, and additionally pullingout the relevant context for
that,
PV Kannan (15:56):
Yes.
Don Finley (15:56):
okay, I'm going to need a list of your customers so
that if I ever have a problem, Iknow that I don't have to just
jam on the zero button
PV Kannan (16:06):
That's
Don Finley (16:06):
go, I'll actually like participate.
Yeah.
PV Kannan (16:09):
it goes back to what we talked about, right?
Technology, which is the AIpiece and blah, blah, blah,
which is able to translate astory into an intent.
data, which is the context,right?
Hey, the data is, the intent isthis, I need to know your
reservation number, confirmationnumber, account number.
I need to know where you are andI need to know how many
(16:30):
passengers are traveling.
All that data, the more I canpull it from the website when
you are searching, the more Ican pull out from the
conversation, you know, all thatis where, what makes the more
easy when it finally, the,action happens, right?
Otherwise, you're spending moretime doing that
Don Finley (16:49):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (16:50):
and less time actually solving the problem,
Don Finley (16:53):
And
PV Kannan (16:53):
And in the meanwhile, you get shuttled around because
you didn't land in the rightplace.
Don Finley (16:58):
well, and that's a, you're, you're hitting on this
and maybe if I can, I'm going totry to
PV Kannan (17:02):
Yep.
Don Finley (17:02):
spin it because I, I missed this at first and I want
to make sure that we, we getthis point across.
You're talking about a businessand a brand isn't five separate
things.
It's one.
Element to a consumer.
And so if you, if you're doingsomething on the website, that
brand needs to know when youcall their customer service
(17:24):
about that holistic experiencethat you're having in that
relationship.
And I think we're starting toget to the point where AI is
allowing us to have a cohesive.
Collection of information andprocessing along, allowing that
one brand experience to, to beprevalent through your
interaction.
PV Kannan (17:45):
That's correct.
And, you see a lot of it in, ifyou've ever used an electric
car, You kind of see, that'skind of the way I explain
sometimes to people.
You have the traditional car,you came in and if it's a little
bit, you paid a little bit more,you can press like I am number
two in the seat and then seatwill adjust, In an electric car,
because it's so software firststop developed, walk in just by
(18:08):
your phone and the, your phone'sproximity versus your spouse,
you are in the driver's seat, itgoes, oh, I need to adjust to PB
setting.
Right.
And I need to pair to his phone.
I need to play music from hisphone.
Right.
so that's what you get whentechnology gets smart you have
(18:29):
more ability to sense things.
Right.
Don Finley (18:31):
I love it.
PV Kannan (18:33):
And so I do think, and by the way, we are not done
yet.
Right.
Because then what is happening,increasingly is.
Hey, why do I need to take thisproblem to an agent if it's
simple enough?
Like, oh, you need your flightrerouted.
I know how to do it.
With modern APIs, I can gofigure out if a flight is
available and if it's quick, Ijust do it, right?
(18:55):
Now, there are harder issues andwe'll stay to the travel
example.
What if I'm traveling with myspouse, but I booked the
spouse's ticket using miles?
which don't have the privilegeas my ticket, which may have a
status.
And now the automated systemsays, okay, you get this, your
wife's going to travel tomorrow.
(19:16):
you're like, no, no, no, no, no.
And that's where an agent cango.
Okay.
that logic works for somepeople, but not you because
you're traveling as a family,even though you have two
different reservations, Becauseone was booked with miles and
one was paid.
Booked with, status and cash orwhatever, right?
And that's where even if it goesto an agent, if that's
understood, otherwise thinkabout even explaining it to an
(19:38):
agent, you're like, Hey, myflight got canceled.
Here's my thing.
Oh, by the way, I'm travelingwith my wife.
And the guy's like, wait, wait,wait, let me handle this.
No, you have to handle it
Don Finley (19:47):
Exactly.
This is one experience for me.
I know it's in your system.
It's two different things, butat the same time,
PV Kannan (19:53):
Yeah.
Don Finley (19:54):
hit a point on the AI side of this, where today's
systems are really good at kindof like breaking down
information, parsing it,categorizing it, showing like.
Early signs of reasoning andlogic in, in our LLMs, right?
There's other systems that wecan bring in that help to, to do
that.
But then we're talking aboutagenic AI, right?
(20:15):
Like where you're giving it agoal and it's looking to
actually like accomplish a taskfor you.
Not so much just get you to theright direction Yeah yeah
PV Kannan (20:33):
yeah,
Don Finley (20:39):
I've got two people on two different things, but
they're traveling together.
That, that's going to be one ofthose cases where it may either
be that the AI can handle itright away, or that it's going
to be something that it has yeahsee over time.
PV Kannan (20:53):
it is going to take and in the most fascinating
aspect of all.
of this is, people forget,customer service is directly
linked to rate of change in anindustry, right?
So electric utilities in the US,right?
Nothing has changed.
I mean, we have solar and all ofthat, but your relationship to
the electric utility is the sameas it was 25 years back, except
(21:18):
now you can view your billonline.
Big deal, right?
That's pretty much the onlychange.
There's nothing else that'schanged.
So if your power goes down, youcan call them and it'll say,
Hey, I recognize your number.
I'll note it down and I'll callyou back when power comes on.
And oftentimes it calls, 10minutes after the power has come
and you know it because you'rein
Don Finley (21:38):
Because you
PV Kannan (21:39):
So
Don Finley (21:39):
have, yeah, exactly.
PV Kannan (21:40):
so yes, smart meters, but smart meters is more helping
the utility than you.
Right, you know, so give that asan example, because if you look
at, the problem types that anagent has, forget solar power
for a minute.
It's pretty static to what anagent experienced 20 years back,
right?
(22:01):
And, and so these electricutilities don't have large
number of people in the callcenter because they don't need
to.
I mean, most customers knowpower goes out.
there's no big problem thatyou're going to call, like what
I just described with the UnitedAirlines or any airline, right?
Don Finley (22:16):
Yeah,
PV Kannan (22:16):
That doesn't happen, right?
So that industry by nature inthe US, it's different in
Europe.
It's a lot more dynamic.
you can buy power from multiplecompanies.
So it's a competitive field,right?
So in, in UK, for instance, havea lot more agents because they
have to retain their customerhere.
It's a monopoly, right?
(22:38):
So there it's like, a telephone,right?
A mobile phone, I can switchcarriers, right?
And so.
That adds a dynamic.
So when you think aboutautomated system, they'll do
really well in a monopoly,industry, because you can nail
the problem, like you said, andnothing changes or very little
(22:59):
changes, right?
Where I think, automated systemsstruggle is, the rate of change
is so high, where are you goingto learn that change?
Someone has to then manuallyprogram it.
And once you're manuallyprogramming it, you're messing
it up, right?
So that's why you have this gap.
And you can actually say whetheran industry is dynamic or not by
(23:22):
how much that gap exists.
The gap is actually a goodthing.
It means the consumers arebenefiting.
from the competition, right?
The day amazon.
com says I've automatedeverything, we know as
consumers, we are dead,
Don Finley (23:34):
that's true.
That really, that really istrue.
PV Kannan (23:37):
complete stranglehold on everything.
They don't need to innovate.
They don't need to do anythingbecause they're like, Hey, this
is what we give you.
And that's what monopolies tellyou, right?
This is what you have.
not going to do anything foryou.
I'm not going to come with anyclever idea.
And all I'll do is every yearI'll increase your prices,
right?
So,
Don Finley (23:56):
That's
PV Kannan (23:57):
in a way, very ironically, bad customer service
is not really bad unless it's anincompetent company.
when automation doesn't serveneeds, it means the industry is
actually dynamic and things arechanging, right?
And, So that's something to keepin mind because people are like,
why is it not perfect?
I'm like, you don't want it tobe perfect.
That's a bad thing as a consumerto desire.
(24:21):
Like, I want every problem to besolved.
Good.
Then you're working for a,you're working for a monopoly.
You're not a customer.
Don Finley (24:27):
cool.
And that's kind of the thing.
My world doesn't get betterunless I have problems.
Problems and opportunities arethe exact same thing.
It's just your perspective asfar as it goes.
Now.
When my power goes out, thatfeels like a real problem for
me.
It's definitely an opportunityfor the power company.
And granted that doesn't happen.
(24:48):
I mean, in the last 10 years, Ithink it's happened once, right?
Like very, there's very reliableservices in that area.
And like you're saying, it'ssomewhat of a monopoly.
Because we don't
PV Kannan (25:00):
It is.
Don Finley (25:01):
There isn't a customer service need because it
is reliable.
And additionally, there isn'tcompetition for it.
So we might be paying a littlebit more.
PV Kannan (25:09):
And, and Don, I forgot you're in Philadelphia.
I am in California.
So our power situation is alittle
Don Finley (25:14):
Oh,
PV Kannan (25:14):
we do have frequent power cuts.
Don Finley (25:16):
that's right.
PV Kannan (25:18):
That's why I gave you that example.
And, now I've moved to solar, bythe way, because the power
company is not responsive.
They're a monopoly, right?
They really don't care.
They'll be like, Hey, we thinksome fire is going to come,
which is going to cut it offproactively.
you're not doing it proactively.
You're just hurting me.
if you are proactive, you'llsay, Hey, it's, it's, the fire
is one mile away.
(25:38):
I'm going to cut it or 10 milesaway, right?
a fire, fire, fire, 600 milesaway, why are you cutting my
power?
Right?
anyway, so my point is, you'reright.
Maybe for you and the viewersprobably, or the listeners, the
electric utility may not be.
That's relevant.
Unless you live in California,then the example will hit
Don Finley (25:58):
We at California also, I have some team members
in Ecuador and currently they'recutting power for a quarter of
the country at a time
PV Kannan (26:08):
Wow.
Don Finley (26:08):
of six hours every day.
Right.
They do three hours overnightand three hours during it.
So some of our team members areworking from the mall because
it's the only place they couldget power and internet at the
same time.
And like, it is fascinating.
We also have team members inEgypt and power outages are
somewhat, they're frequentenough to where it's not, you
(26:32):
know, unheard of, right?
Like, so it's very much in thatsame space, but I think it, it
goes to show both theresponsibility of the brand and
additionally of the team.
Your customer serviceorganization, as far as how you
communicate that.
And then the relationships thatyou build.
What I love about the workyou're doing is that it has a
very, there's always that human.
(26:52):
Connection to it.
Now,
PV Kannan (26:55):
Right.
Mm
Don Finley (26:58):
fear in the, in the space today based on like what
we're seeing with AI.
we've been doing AI developmentfor the last over 10 years now.
and, and I've, I personally havemy undergrad degree with
computer science and a focus onAI.
And so I knew about neural nets
PV Kannan (27:15):
Right.
Don Finley (27:20):
really be doing it.
In the last two years, my, myown personal opinion on where I
thought we were going toautomate away jobs was going to
be in trucking, self driving.
And then additionally, in moreblue collar type of jobs.
Well, what we've seen with chatGPT and the explosion of LLMs
(27:42):
has really pushed that paradigmto like, really a lot of white
collar jobs are going tobenefit,
PV Kannan (27:47):
Yep.
Don Finley (27:47):
but also demand could disappear for some of
them.
Where do you see the worldplaying out in regards to how AI
is going to impact theemployment market?
PV Kannan (27:58):
Right.
Right.
So good question.
Now, whenever we talk aboutproductivity improvement in
general, right?
Implicit in that is if a companyhas 100 employees and
productivity improves 20%, thenby definition, 20 people can be
removed from the system.
Right?
Don Finley (28:18):
I mean, that's a,
PV Kannan (28:19):
and so.
Don Finley (28:19):
do you really buy into that?
PV Kannan (28:21):
No, I'm just saying if, if indeed, really, and where
it's here is a funny thing, Don,like other than contact centers,
you really cannot measureproductivity in many jobs.
talk about productivity.
You cannot measure it, right?
And so if I'm a developer andChatGPT helps me develop faster
by 40%, I may not give it backto the company.
(28:41):
I may give it, give that time towatching Netflix.
Don Finley (28:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
PV Kannan (28:46):
So, because you as a manager said, Hey, PV, I need
this done by Tuesday.
And I'm done by Monday.
I may not call you and say, Hey,I'm done.
Right?
So, you know, there is not thelevel of measurement unless you
start monitoring.
checking like, hey, because wecan monitor everything too today
Don Finley (29:04):
Exactly.
We can totally monitor whatpeople are doing.
We've, we're switching ourcompensation structure around
our development teams for morebeing value based than trying to
Right and somewhat even on oursalary side, providing bonuses
for productivity enhancement sothat both sides feel it.
The pushback that I have on whenwe say that a project is going
(29:25):
to save, let's say 40% Mm hmmwe've done these projects
before, I have a customer thatsaved 80 percent on their labor
because we implemented an IOTplatform that allowed them to
know exactly where things were.
Not one person was fired fromthat company.
PV Kannan (29:43):
No, that's, that's great.
And also whether the company isgrowing or not,
Don Finley (29:47):
And
PV Kannan (29:47):
so,
Don Finley (29:48):
things played into it.
They were understaffedsignificantly.
PV Kannan (29:52):
yes,
Don Finley (29:52):
And then additionally, there was also
work that wasn't getting donethat they wanted to do.
And so they basically shiftedthe roles of those people.
PV Kannan (30:02):
correct.
Don Finley (30:03):
do you see AI changing any of this kind of
like calculus or?
PV Kannan (30:07):
look, the one thing I'm very confident is nothing
dramatic is going to happen.
I immigrated in the 90s, therewas a book written in, I believe
it was 95 or 96, you can Googleit and look at it.
It's called The Depth of theAmerican Programmer or something
like that.
And it basically said, people inIndia and China can program as
(30:28):
good as anyone in the U.
S.
So, U.
S.
companies are going to go and,you know, do everything there.
And it's going to be horrible,blah, blah, blah.
and it created a sensation,briefly in business week and
became a little bit of like, Ithink business week wrote an
article going to Microsoft andsay, how many employees do you
have in India?
How many do you have in China?
And all of that took a littlenasty turn, you know, to the
(30:49):
side.
But we know what it is 30 yearslater, right?
we can't find developers inSilicon
Don Finley (30:56):
Hmm.
PV Kannan (30:56):
And we have, millions of people in India and China
actually working, for U.
S.
companies like Microsoft and IBMand others.
And yet we still have a laborshortage, right?
So we have developers inToronto, Bangalore, and San
Jose.
Everywhere we, have more openpositions than filled ones,
right?
This is 30 years later.
So I always caution people whenthey look at a piece of
(31:19):
technology, and for metechnology like in our spaces,
it's technology, data, andpeople, right?
And so, you know, back, I don'tthink anything dramatic is going
to happen as, people alwaysenvision.
what happened if we only reliedon U.
S.
programmers?
And we took a stand in the 90safter reading that book.
(31:39):
can be offshored, right?
We would have zero globalcompanies selling technology
because we wouldn't have had thetalent to develop products to,
meet the needs of every countryin the world,
Don Finley (31:51):
Mm
PV Kannan (31:52):
So we couldn't have developed, Chinese version of
windows.
have developed, versions forEurope, right?
So we couldn't have, had theman, manpower to even.
Take care of all thefunctionality requirements from
different societies and going,Oh, in Europe, they do things
differently.
So I need to, have the UIaccommodate some things.
(32:13):
You needed the manpower simplyto say, to build everything that
we have today, if we had onlyrelied on US, would be no Tesla,
there would be no Chad GPT,because we would have moved at
such a slow pace, right?
So for me, the better questionto ask is, What are things that
are going to happen if I haveunlimited labor for almost free,
(32:34):
right?
So if you are a company andsomeone comes and says, what,
what, what's constraining you?
Well, I have 5, 000 guys and I'mdeveloping 10 products.
Can you develop 25 products?
now that pretty much everythingis like running water, what
would you do?
Don Finley (32:48):
hmm.
PV Kannan (32:49):
And, and that's what happened with running water,
right?
At one point we didn't haveenough to drink.
And, you know, now we haveenough that we do golf courses
and plant vineyards and dosomething,
Don Finley (33:00):
Yeah,
PV Kannan (33:01):
I would view it that way because every time, in the
last 30 years, which is where Isee more technology change
happen than the, preceding 50,not to underplay the impact of
what the technologies mean,right?
but, I always say wheneverpeople have said it's going to
like end jobs or all this thingis going to go away, it always
(33:21):
takes a turn, a surprising turn,an unexpected turn.
for me, I would rather thinkabout that rather than go, let
me tell you in 24 7, we areleveraging ChatGPT for.
code development for, projects,right?
we have no plans to reduce ourheadcount, right?
It's more, it's more about,we're like platforms.
(33:43):
We're doing things which wecouldn't have done.
Don Finley (33:45):
exactly what we were talking about, right?
Like, even if you have a 50percent increase in
productivity, you still have
PV Kannan (33:52):
up using it
Don Finley (33:53):
exactly.
And you want to retain thattalent
PV Kannan (33:56):
and
Don Finley (33:56):
that you have, right?
PV Kannan (33:58):
on the other hand, if you're a company going through
trouble, then you may do cuts,right?
Maybe your business is not goingto be around.
Because technology is takingaway your, your market.
Don Finley (34:10):
might just be right sizing.
To, to make the need,
PV Kannan (34:14):
Yes,
Don Finley (34:24):
driven to zero, which effectively is what we're
doing with AI, right?
Like the opportunity for you tobe building something that was
never imagined before, is there.
is going to be there.
And just like we would neverhave envisioned Instagram before
we had a smartphone and beforewe had, 4G were really the two
(34:45):
things that helped to, to bringthat to market.
There's opportunities for AIand, you know, business and
everybody.
And I, that didn't exist twoyears ago.
But I also am really excited foryour field, because you're
sitting at the forefront ofreally what is that human
(35:05):
interaction with what we'redoing.
And so like you're usingChachiBT for some of your
development.
I imagine you're using LLMs insome of your customer service as
well.
PV Kannan (35:15):
Yep, for the, figuring out intent, we just
talked about it.
So we are improving the intentrecognition.
layering LLMs, right?
To the older, to the older AImodels.
So, and we are squeezing morejuice out of it,
Don Finley (35:29):
Mm.
PV Kannan (35:29):
So you're right.
We're going to be touching everypart of our business from
finance to HR to go, Hey, how dowe leverage
Don Finley (35:36):
Yeah.
PV Kannan (35:36):
Right.
And then I'm telling people,then think about, expansively,
now that you've got thisadditional capacity in your
department, what else can we do?
Right.
And so that's my view that, Idon't think look, the other, the
other thing is if you playaround the pessimistic, path
for, and play it out, what,where do we go?
(35:58):
So 80 percent of the people inany country, forget about the
US, is unemployed and, the thingI hate about the universal basic
income is not that we don't wantto help people.
It's like who decides I am partof the 20 percent that will
think and work.
And you're part of the 80percent who should stay home and
I'll just send you a check.
(36:19):
I
Don Finley (36:20):
I gotta say,
PV Kannan (36:20):
much
Don Finley (36:20):
look,
PV Kannan (36:21):
how much arrogance should you have to say?
I mean, that to me is the oldfeudalism.
That's the old caste system.
Right?
Don Finley (36:29):
I, I think that universal, I love that
interpretation of it because itis, I see that point of view,
PV Kannan (36:36):
I totally
Don Finley (36:37):
but there's also, if you look at the research of what
happens from UBI, as far as likeyou, if you just give everybody,
it's everybody gets the money,right?
But But what you find is that,parents end up staying home with
their children.
Right?
Then, additionally, people whomay not have been in a career
that, they like to go back toschool.
(36:58):
They, they go for an education.
I don't know if it's the rightway to go, but I do agree with
you.
that like, there is kind of thisproblem of if we get to a point
of let's say 30 to 50 percentunemployment, which is probably,
I mean, that's not the worstcase scenario.
but if there is an innovationthat comes by and since
technology is going faster andas far as the rate of change
(37:21):
goes, which is bringing on moreinnovation for us.
We're going to have to innovateon our social services as well.
But in the same,
PV Kannan (37:29):
that, sorry.
I agree with
Don Finley (37:32):
but I also want to bring this back because what
you've been sharing has beenabsolutely amazing from the
standpoint of like, there isopportunity here and there is
opportunity for everyone inthis.
PV Kannan (37:43):
Exactly.
I
Don Finley (37:44):
the place to be.
PV Kannan (37:45):
I think spending too much time on this, going to take
away jobs and all of that isjust a waste of time, right?
It's going to play out.
And the way it's going to playout is more smart people are
going to go.
I'm creating excessive excesscapacity that now I can leverage
and at a cost point that I canactually invent more things.
Thanks.
(38:05):
And we underestimated everysingle time.
Our society has gone throughmassive changes, right?
Everyone was in the fieldgetting food for mostly for
themselves,
Don Finley (38:16):
We didn't have a nine to five.
PV Kannan (38:17):
population.
Yeah.
And then what happened?
Like in less than 50 years, 100people working in the field
already, 95 5, suddenly 95 is insomewhere else and automation
took.
No one sat there and like, if,if the society didn't evolve for
the farmers.
To go do other things.
Of course, we would have rightedback then.
(38:39):
We may have never got to thispoint.
But what is great about the wayhuman beings think and act and
do is we take always thatsurplus and it forward and grow
it as opposed to going intothis, Hey, we've fired all the
farmers.
Great.
Who's going to eat your grain?
You're fired all the farmers.
Don Finley (38:57):
Exactly.
PV Kannan (38:59):
it's that thinking that just gets me,
Don Finley (39:02):
And I, I love this because we're talking about
something that's humaningenuity, right?
Like it's,
PV Kannan (39:07):
Mm hmm.
Don Finley (39:08):
that factor that kind of comes in and ingenuity.
doesn't have to have the wordhuman in front of it, but it
seems so core to what we'retalking about where there's
opportunities in the problem.
And it goes back to that stoicprinciple of the obstacle is the
way, as well.
And so like, you see theproblem, we solve the problem.
And like, I've, we probably bothplay around with a lot of AI and
(39:32):
like, I haven't seen that sortof like creative push from an AI
to really kind of like own aproblem, own an opportunity and
be like the champion.
maybe we'll get there someday,but I think this is still where
the opportunity exists of beingable to be someone that can
garner resources and understandhow to put them together.
(39:52):
for anybody who's like of ouryounger listeners.
Kind of thing.
Like let's say college age,getting prepared for their
career.
What advice do you have in thistime of change?
PV Kannan (40:03):
I think when, you know, I was younger and
fascinated with technology, Ispent way too much time, you
know, obsessing abouttechnology, which I think is
because you want to learn it.
You want to master it.
Right.
I always tell young people to doit.
of look at the, the human sideattached to the technology,
whatever it is, right?
I'm using a computer.
(40:23):
I'm a user.
What, what is my point of view,right?
It doesn't matter everywhere.
There is a human counterpart totechnology, right?
And just understanding it, howit impacts the different
stakeholders.
is something you appreciate muchlater in life from experience,
right?
You know, in my 20s, I used tobe like walking around talking
(40:44):
to clients and say, thistechnology is fascinating.
I'm like, how come you're notgetting it?
We should just move to thiswithout like going, why is a
business in business?
It's there to serve a customer.
And what is it that theyactually get from your product?
And how do I make that productbetter?
How do I make that servicebetter?
How do I do?
And then in solving thoseproblems, then you go, this
(41:05):
technology is awesome for doingthat, Versus what we are doing
today, again, with LLMs, whichis, you know, this amazing
technology, now let me go do ithere, here.
No, what, what is it that it'sgoing to do?
End of the day, if I get acrappy product from you, I don't
care if you use the LLMs fordesign, if your product is
crappy, right?
(41:26):
I don't care if you use LLM foradvertisement, if your service
doesn't work, right?
And so I, I would advise, youknow, the young people to really
like focus on what are theproblems that are being solved?
What are the needs that arebeing met and unmet?
And spend time and workbackwards towards the
technology, right?
Don Finley (41:46):
that's fantastic.
I really appreciate the customerfocus, the human focus on this
and kind of like technology isjust an aid.
to get you in there.
And so that's really insightful.
Thank you for sharing.
PV Kannan (41:59):
Thanks,
Don Finley (41:59):
if our listeners wanted to reach out, is there
any way to contact you?
PV Kannan (42:03):
I'm available on social media, and so I'm very
responsive if you reach out onLinkedIn, Twitter, whatever is
your favorite
Don Finley (42:11):
Fantastic.
PV Kannan (42:12):
media platform, so.
Don Finley (42:16):
Really appreciate you taking the time.
And I think the one thing thatI'm getting from this today is
it's still all about the humanconnection.
PV Kannan (42:25):
Absolutely.
Don Finley (42:26):
you.
PV Kannan (42:27):
Thanks, Don.
Don Finley (42:29):
Thank you for tuning into The Human Code, sponsored
by FINdustries, where we harnessAI to elevate your business.
By improving operationalefficiency and accelerating
growth, we turn opportunitiesinto reality.
Let FINdustries be your guide toAI mastery, making success
inevitable.
Explore how at FINdustries.
(42:50):
co.
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