October 14, 2024 • 28 mins
Michael Hingson shares his incredible story of surviving the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog, Roselle. Michael reflects on how fear can be harnessed as a tool for leadership and resilience, drawing lessons from his own experiences and his partnerships with guide dogs.
Together, Peta and Michael explore the misconceptions around disability and the power of teamwork, trust, and purpose in overcoming life’s challenges.
Connect with Michael:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
Email: mike@michaelhingson.com
Connect with Peta:
Instagram: @petahooke
Website: www.icantstandpodcast.com
Email: icantstandpodcast@gmail.com
Episode Transcript:https://www.icantstandpodcast.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to the I Can't Stand Podcast. The
podcast answering your questions about what life is like when
you have a disability. My name is Peter, I have
cerebral palsy, and I'm your host this week. I am
absolutely honored to have Mike Kingson on the podcast. Mike
(00:27):
has an extraordinary story. He was born blind and he
experienced nine to eleven. His guide dog and himself escaped.
They guided each other down the many stairs, and his
story has always stuck with me. I'm absolutely thrilled to
(00:48):
give you this chat. Mike educated me from the moment
we turned on the Mikes, and I am so grateful.
I hope you enjoy this episode. And without any further ado,
let's get into it. So I guessed, could you please
(01:10):
introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure, and I want to know why it's called I
Can't Stand podcasts? But I am Mike Hinson and I
live in the States.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
It's such a pleasure to have you on here. Mike.
And the long story short about the podcast is I
can't stand because I have cerebral palsy, but I also
couldn't stand the fact that people ask me silly questions
about disability. And there was no way to effectively educate people.
I got sick of doing it one by one, so
I decided to start a podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
There you go, Well that works well. I've experienced a
lot of those silly, silly questions from people, especially the media.
It's amazing the things that they ask, but they reflect
society and it's very strong misconceptions about blindness and disabilities
in general. So I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I always think, unfortunately, neither of us are going to
be out of a job anytime soon. No, because as
much as we try, there's still a lot for non
disabled people to better understand.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, the reality is, if you want to get very
technical about it, Peter, everyone on this planet has a disability,
and for most people, their disability is their light dependent.
That is to say, put a bunch of people in
a room, people with eyesight, and then suddenly have all
the power fail so that they're locked or they're lost
in that room without any lights. People scramble around to
(02:35):
try to find a smartphone or a flashlight or something
to get light back on. Because in eighteen seventy eight,
Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, which as the
Americas with Disabilities Act would say was a reasonable accommodation
to allow light dependent people to continue to function. But
the fact of the matter is all it does is
it covers up their disability. There is much ability oriented
(03:01):
individual as I. The only difference is that we focus
so much on providing light on demand that we cover
up that disability. And I didn't include you and that
because you have another disability, but you are light dependent too,
but we will hold it against you. But the fact
is that we are all people with disabilities, and disability
should stop being determined to be a lack of ability
(03:24):
or an inability. And my diversity friend say, well, disability
does start with diss so of course it's a lack
of ability, And I said, yeah, well then how do
you explain, discerned disciple and discreete they start with dis No.
Disability is a characteristic that everyone in this on this
planet has. The Only thing about it is that it
(03:45):
manifests itself differently for different people. But everyone has a disability.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And you've just encapsulated in a few minutes of why
I love my job and I love doing this podcast
because yes, as you say, I'm sitting here with a disability.
We have different disabilities, but I didn't and had never
thought of that perspective before. And you are so correct.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Do you use a wheelchair?
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I do, Yes, I use a wheelchair.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So my wife, for her whole life used a wheelchair.
She was a T three pairer. And in two thousand
and three she started using a powerchair because, as one
of her physical medicine doctors said, the body doesn't come
with a lifetime warranty, and her shoulders were starting to go,
so she switched to a powerchair. But you know, again,
(04:36):
the disability is a characteristic and everyone on the planet
has it. Whether you like it or not, it is true.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
And I think your analogy with you know, reflecting how
light dependent we are for those of us who are
not vision impaired or blind.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Really, I'm not visually impaired either, because then that's part
of the problem. People keep saying, well, you're blind or
visually impaired, excuse me visually, I'm not different because I'm
blind impaired. I am not. Period. It's like you talk
to people who are deaf. If you say that they're
hearing impaired, they're liable to punch you in the nose
and bloody your face because they've learned hearing impaired is
(05:14):
not a good way to deal with it. We shouldn't
be compared with people who have full hearing, so deaf
or hard of hearing, and in the case of blind people,
blind and low vision. And you know, I don't want
to mean to interrupt you too much, but I think
it's important that we recognize that words do matter, and
the fact that people keep talking about us as being
(05:35):
visually impaired only serves to accentuate people's misconceptions.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
And it truly just illustrates that even though I'm myself
a part of the community, I am always open to
be educated. And that's why, as I say, I really
love my job, because we've only been speaking for five
minutes and you've opened my eyes and given me a
better perspective. So thank you, I have to say. In
(06:02):
and around the fact you're talking about light dependency and
for those of us who have a twenty twenty vision,
that really illustrates how scary it can be. And I
think that really illustrates what life with a disability can
be like. And I think that's a really great analogy
(06:25):
for people listening who maybe don't have a disability to
really put themselves in our shoes to be like, aha,
I now understand what it's like to feel vulnerable. That
was a word I could get before, vulnerable. I think
that's a really powerful message.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But again, the reality is is that they don't have
our disability, but they need to start to recognize they
have their own. And I'm very serious when I say
that every person on the planet has a disability, and
for most people it's light dependence. We need to start
to recognize that disability doesn't mean in it ability or
lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic that we all have,
(07:06):
and it manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn't
change the fact that it's there, though, and we've got
to get people to start to recognize that just because
we're different than they, it doesn't mean that we're less
than they. I have a master's degree in physics, and
I doubt there are very many people outside of fairly
(07:29):
advanced physics who could tell you what a spherical Handkle
function is, or a Bessel function, which is a mathematical
term as well, or any number of different things. The
fact does that make them less than me, well, of
course it does, because I know physics and they don't know.
It doesn't make them less than me. It is that
we all have our gifts, and everyone's gifts need to
(07:52):
be acknowledged, and we need to begin to start to
recognize as a planet that just because someone doesn't have
some of the same gifts that we do, it doesn't
mean that they don't have gifts that are just as
important as the ones that we have.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Have you always been confident in your disabled identity and
you as a person.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I think I've learned a lot since I've been speaking publicly,
you know, so as some of your listeners may know
and may not know, I worked in the World Trade
Center on September eleventh, and I escaped, and I was
able to escape because of things that I learned that
prepared me to deal with an emergency. And yeah, I've
(08:36):
been pretty confident about my life in general. My parents
were told when it was discovered at my age of
four months that I was blind. They were told to
send me to a hospital because no blind child could
ever do anything and could ever grow up to be anything.
And my parents said, you're wrong, We're going to bring
him up to do whatever he chooses to do. So
I grew up believing that I could do the same
(08:59):
kinds of things that that other people could do, But
over time I realized, of course I might not do
them exactly the same way other people do them. And
since the World Trade Center events, I have been speaking
a lot. I've been asked a lot of questions, some good,
some totally dumb, but all of those helped me to
(09:21):
more realize what I'm like in my own skin and
have taught me to help to educate people. And then
I started doing my podcast Unstoppable mindset were inclusion, diversity,
and the Unexpected Meat. I've learned a lot about myself,
even just during the time of doing the podcast. But yeah,
(09:44):
I think that my parents helped me recognize that I
could be comfortable in my skin. But I also need
to understand that everyone comes from where they come from,
and it's not up to me to judge people just
because they don't understand blindness. I will do my best
to educate, and I may become less tolerant if they're
(10:06):
not willing to catch on and recognize the blainness isn't
the problem. It's perceptions about people that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I have to say there's a common theme in my
podcast when I speak to disabled people regardless about disability,
that parents are really fundamental informing our identity around disability.
And your story is very similar to mine my parents
regardless of what they were told, Like I was told
that I would never be able to write my own name,
(10:36):
that I would be able to do whatever I wanted
in my own capabilities, and they were happy to foster
that in me. And I'm so glad that was similar
for you, Michael.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I have seen so many blain people though, who didn't
have that level of support growing up, and they don't
have the confidence that they should. Blindness is one of
probably the most so called feared disability. The Gallop Pulling
organization in this country for years when they surveyed people
about their most significant fears, they put blindness as one
(11:11):
of the top five fears. Not disabilities, but blindness because
we emphasize eyesight so much. And the reality is that
fear is so misplaced, not only about blindness but about
disabilities in general. We all again have gifts, we all
have things we can do, we all have things that
maybe we don't do well.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But so what it's very clear that fear is a
common theme, not only in this conversation but in your work, Michael.
And obviously fear was a big part of you know
you living through September eleventh, that awful day in human history.
How did that event change your perspective on fear and
(11:53):
resilience and the meaning of life.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
When I was hired by Quantum Corporation in nineteen ninety
nine to open an office for them, I realized that
as the leader of that office, I was going to
have to do and be perceived as a leader like
anyone else who would be running that office. So I
spent time traveling around the World Trade Center and learning
where everything was, learning where offices were, learning where all
(12:20):
the kiosks and all the different things on the first floor,
where the shopping mall at the World Trade Center was.
And I also spent time learning all I could about
what to do in the case of an emergency, because
there had been a bombing in nineteen ninety three and
it wasn't very significant, but it caused people to be
afraid of being in the World Trade Center, and they
(12:41):
only had about an eighty percent occupancy rate because people
had moved out due to the bombing, and so we
got a wonderful rate. And so I spent time talking
to the police, the port authority, fire department, security people,
and so on, and also learned all I could about
the building, what the emergency exits were, how the fire
fighters functioned, and all of that, so that no matter
(13:04):
what occurred, I could be the same kind of a
leader that other people would do by reading signs. So,
for example, if we had someone come into our office
to see our products, and then maybe they were going
to stay and we were going to have a discussion
about signing a contract for them to buy our products,
and if we were going to go to lunch, I
(13:26):
couldn't say, well, I'm blind, I don't know how to
get anywhere. Someone's going to have to lead me. How
would it look two hours later when we're back in
the office and we're negotiating a multimillion dollar contract. No,
I needed to be the one to say, what do
you want? Okay, I'll take you, follow me and do that.
What it created to me was a mindset that says,
you know what to do in an emergency, you know
(13:47):
what to do in different situations and circumstances, And that
mindset kicked in on September eleventh. So what it also
meant was I had learned how to use fear in
a productive, positive way. Rather than being overwhelmed or as
I put it, blinded by fear, I learned that you
(14:07):
can use fear as a powerful tool to help motivate
you and direct you and keep you focused. And that's
what happened on September eleventh. This year, we wrote a book,
or published a book called Live Like a Guide Dog.
True Stories from a blind Man and his Dogs about
being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith. And
(14:30):
the issue is that I learned most of what I
know about teamwork and trust and other things from having
eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog. What we
wanted to teach people, and what the book is really
ultimately about, is you can control fear. You don't need
to be overwhelmed when something unexpected or horrible happens. You
(14:51):
can use that fear to keep you focused and help
you do what you need to do. And there were
times going down the stairs, some people on the stairs
in the World Trade Center panicked, but a number of
us worked really hard to keep people focused and not panicking.
My friend David Frank, who was in my office that
(15:13):
day because we were conducting seminars to teach some of
our reseller partners how to sell our products. David lost
it at the fiftieth floor going down and he said, Mike,
we're going to die. We're not going to make it
out of here. And I just said to David, stop it. David,
if Rosella and I can go down these stairs, so
can you. And I snapped at him very deliberately because
I wanted him to snap out of whatever was going
(15:36):
on with him. He told me that that brought him
out of his bunk, but he wanted to do something
to keep his mind off of what was going on.
She said, I'm going to walk a floor below you
and tell you what I see. I'll shout up to you,
and I said okay, and so he did so. For example,
when I was at the forty fifth floor, David said, Hey, Mike,
I'm at the forty fourth floor. This is where the
Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping going on down. The
(15:59):
reason I mentioned that is because what David did was
he shouted up to me at every floor where he
was what he saw. And the result of that was
that he became a focal point for anyone on the
stairs who could hear him, above him or below him.
So again, anyone who could hear him was able to
(16:20):
focus and not be quite as afraid because there was
someone in the stairs who in reality was sounding okay,
and that helped them feel better.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Leadership is so o key, and clearly on that day
it was fundamental for a lot of people to get
out of that situation. But of course a lot of
people also didn't. How did your guide dog react to
this situation? Obviously they trained, but you know, it's not
(16:53):
something you can try and I presume a dog to
do in this very unusual circumstance, particularly in and around bravery.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
If a dog isn't threatened, then they're not going to
face it the same way we are. And nothing threatened Roselle.
As we went down the stairs. She had to sense
what was occurring, but I at the same time kept saying,
good dog, Roselle, what a good dog, Keep going, what
a good dog. Let's go down the stairs, keep going,
good girl. I worked really hard to keep her focused
(17:26):
by just saying to her that she was doing a
good job. And the purpose for that was in part
to keep her focused and to let her know, because
she had the sense that people were afraid, but to
let her know that I was okay. The purpose of
a guide dog is to guide, not lead. So it's
not the dog's job to know where to go and
how to get there. The dog's job is to make
(17:49):
sure that we walk safely. But I have to know
where to go and how to get there, and I
have to be the team leader. And in the situation
of going down those stairs, part of my job as
a leader was to encourage my teammate and make sure
that she didn't feel that I was feeling endangered or
fearful or panicking in any way. So that was also
(18:12):
part of why I was able to focus so much
in going down the stairs and keep in mind, you know.
Then we got outside and we were very close to
tower too when it collapsed, and again nothing really threatened her,
but I kept telling her to hop up or speed
up and run as we did. But the reality is
that what you need to understand is that dogs don't
(18:32):
approach all of this the way we do. When we
got home that night, first thing I did when we
got home, as I took off Roselle's harness and I
was going to take her out, but she would have
none of it. She jerked away, and she ran over,
grabbed her favorite tugbone and started playing tug of war
with my retired guy dog, Lennie, because dogs don't do
what if it was over for Roselle, she knew it
(18:53):
was over. Nothing threatened her or injured her, so.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
It was done.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
We would if everything world and we worry about everything
in the world, and the reality is only a fraction
of that is some are things that we have control over.
And one of my mantras that I learned in and
around the World Trade Center and I talked about afterward,
is don't worry about what you can control. Just focus
on what you can and let the rest take care
(19:20):
of itself, because you're not going to be able to
influence it anyway. So focus on what you can and
stop being so fearful about everything else. And we need
to control our lives and work in our lives, teaching
ourselves things and not being critical but rather being willing
to learn. And I think that that's important to do,
(19:42):
and if more people would do that and spend time
at the end of the day really analyzing what happened
and why was I afraid of that? What can I learn?
You'll develop your mind muscle and become a lot better
at learning to control that fear that we all talk
about out.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
And as far as your partnership with your guide dogs,
what have you learned, particularly since writing your first book
in and around your partnership with your guide dogs? Have
you explored how each relationship is different? Talk to me about.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
That dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally.
I think I instinctively knew that, but again, learning about
it while writing Thunderdog and so on helps because I've
learned to articulate some of those things more than I
used to, and I think it's an important skill to have.
(20:36):
I think it's important to have been able to do that.
It helps me appreciate the team more and it helps
me appreciate the work that they do. And by showing
that appreciation, I hope that they recognize and appreciate me
better for what I do. They want to please, They
want a team leader, and I need to be the
(20:57):
team leader of our team. But we are a him
together and that's important to know.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
And do you feel that your relationship as you've gotten older,
has become stronger with each dog, as you've honed your
skill in leadership.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Oh, I think it has. It's helped me understand it more.
And the more that I understand it and the more
I think about it. Yeah, certainly that helps.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I'm going to take a moment to ask your personal question.
My beloved dog Harley passed away in April, and I've
never experienced grief to this level. Now that's obviously a
very privileged statement to a point, but I miss him
deeply every day. Talk to me about your process of
grief when your guide dog passes away. Given the importance
(21:41):
of this relationship, I imagine it's extremely difficult for you,
is it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, yes and no. There are a lot of guide
dog users who would yell at me for putting it
this way, But I'm going to when I realize that
a dog needs to retire, it's because they're not performing
as well. They may not be seeing as well at night,
they may be slowing down any number of different things.
My job as the team leader is to be responsible
(22:08):
for my teammate, and when something happens to my teammate,
or if my teammate is stressed. I need to figure
it out. So whenever one of my guide dogs has
to retire, it's because I've made the decision that that's
the best decision for the dog and the best decision
for our team. When I can, I always keep the dog.
(22:31):
And when they pass away, yeah, there's grief, But I
also know that we had a great relationship together, and
so I approach always the process by thinking of it
in terms of a team and the team process. I've
lost several cats, we've lost several guide dogs along the way,
(22:52):
and so on. But the fact of the matter is
that no dog replaces a previous dog, No pay that
replaces a previous pet. What they do is that they
fill new spots in our hearts.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Do you relieve the sounds of not eleven?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Oh? Sure, but I don't do so in a negative way.
I had no control over the World Trade Center happening.
You have no control over having cerebral palsy. The issue is, however,
you do have control, and I had control over how
we deal with what happens to us, and that's the
important part. And so I chose to allow myself to
(23:36):
be interviewed by the media. I chose to go into
a career of public speaking telling my story, and now,
of course it's a little bit different because I tell
my story to a new generation that doesn't even remember
September eleventh. So my job is to tell the story
in a way that draws them in so that they
actually feel that they were there. And people tell me
(23:57):
that all the time from your story, we were there
with you as you were going down the stairs. But
it's important to do that so I don't relive any
of it in fear. I relive it every time I
tell the story, and I think about it a lot,
but not in a fearful or negative way. I always
(24:18):
think about it in terms of what have I learned?
What else is there to learn? It happened? How can
I use my experiences to help other people? And That's
what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And do you feel or did you feel when you
were originally writing your first book Thunderdog? Was it a
way of preserving that and making sure people did remember
and understand Thunderdog.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yes, it tells the story of the World Trade Center,
but it also talks about my life because every chapter
starts out with something from September eleventh, chronologically going through
the day. Then we transition back to things that I
learned in my life that helped with that particular thing,
and then we come back at the end of the
chapter or to continue the September eleventh story. And the
(25:03):
idea is to teach people something. It isn't just telling
the September eleventh story. I want them to learn about blindness.
I want them to learn about blind people. I want
them to learn more about themselves. And then when the
pandemic began, I realized that I've been talking as a
public speaker for at that time nineteen years about what
happened to me. But what I've not been doing is
(25:24):
talking to anyone about how they could learn to control
fear like I learned to control fear. And so we
decided to write the book, and it's teaching people that
they have the ability to control fear and not let
it overwhelm or, as I said, blind them. I have
(25:45):
another book that we wrote kind of in the middle
called Running with Roselle, which was intended for children, the
story of Me growing up, the story of Roselle growing
up and how we met, but more adults by a
thing kids, and it's available through Amazon.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Question I'm really keen to ask you. Firstly, are you
scared at anything, Michael? And what does it mean to
you to be fearless?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Oh, I'm not fearless, but I've learned to focus fear.
I will never say that I am fearless. And you know,
there are a lot of things that get scary. I've
got been in towns and got lost. I went to
Israel last year for a week and I didn't speak Hebrew,
and I didn't really know anyone in the town. And
I took a cab back one evening from Excessive's headquarters
(26:33):
to my hotel, and the driver, rather than letting me
off in front of the hotel, let me off on
the side at the parking lot entrance to the hotel,
which I had never visited before. And I was really
concerned about what I'm going to do to be able
to figure out where I am and how to get
to my hotel, because I didn't even know that he
whether he let me off in front of the hotel
(26:54):
or not. But I focused and I went, wells, just
go to a street corner and see what happens. And
I went to a street corner and heard people talking,
and I went over and they were speaking in English,
so I asked them and it turns out I was
right in front of the hotel. But you know, things happen,
and I've learned that you can focus and you don't
(27:18):
have to let all of this overwhelm you. It was
a little bit scary, but we did okay, and I
made it back to the hotel and all was good
and had a good dinner.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Thank you for listening to this week's episode. I hope
you enjoyed it. If you did, can I ask you
to leave a rating and review on Apple or Spotify.
Share the show with friend on social media. It helps
more people find the podcast. You can always follow me
over on Instagram. My handle is at Pete Hook or
(27:52):
you can send me an email I can't stand podcast
at gmail dot com. Thank you so much Mike for
coming on the I really appreciate it, and thank you
for what you do for the community. Until next week,
have a good one, guys. Bye. I would like to
respectfully acknowledge they were wondery and bun wrong people of
(28:17):
the call and nation of which I record the podcast today,
and I pay my respects to both elders past and present,
along with and especially to those in the First Nation's
communities who are disabled themselves,
Hello, and welcome to the I Can't Stand Podcast. The
podcast answering your questions about what life is like when
you have a disability. My name is Peter, I have
cerebral palsy, and I'm your host this week. I am
absolutely honored to have Mike Kingson on the podcast. Mike
(00:27):
has an extraordinary story. He was born blind and he
experienced nine to eleven. His guide dog and himself escaped.
They guided each other down the many stairs, and his
story has always stuck with me. I'm absolutely thrilled to
(00:48):
give you this chat. Mike educated me from the moment
we turned on the Mikes, and I am so grateful.
I hope you enjoy this episode. And without any further ado,
let's get into it. So I guessed, could you please
(01:10):
introduce yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Sure, and I want to know why it's called I
Can't Stand podcasts? But I am Mike Hinson and I
live in the States.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
It's such a pleasure to have you on here. Mike.
And the long story short about the podcast is I
can't stand because I have cerebral palsy, but I also
couldn't stand the fact that people ask me silly questions
about disability. And there was no way to effectively educate people.
I got sick of doing it one by one, so
I decided to start a podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
There you go, Well that works well. I've experienced a
lot of those silly, silly questions from people, especially the media.
It's amazing the things that they ask, but they reflect
society and it's very strong misconceptions about blindness and disabilities
in general. So I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I always think, unfortunately, neither of us are going to
be out of a job anytime soon. No, because as
much as we try, there's still a lot for non
disabled people to better understand.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, the reality is, if you want to get very
technical about it, Peter, everyone on this planet has a disability,
and for most people, their disability is their light dependent.
That is to say, put a bunch of people in
a room, people with eyesight, and then suddenly have all
the power fail so that they're locked or they're lost
in that room without any lights. People scramble around to
(02:35):
try to find a smartphone or a flashlight or something
to get light back on. Because in eighteen seventy eight,
Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, which as the
Americas with Disabilities Act would say was a reasonable accommodation
to allow light dependent people to continue to function. But
the fact of the matter is all it does is
it covers up their disability. There is much ability oriented
(03:01):
individual as I. The only difference is that we focus
so much on providing light on demand that we cover
up that disability. And I didn't include you and that
because you have another disability, but you are light dependent too,
but we will hold it against you. But the fact
is that we are all people with disabilities, and disability
should stop being determined to be a lack of ability
(03:24):
or an inability. And my diversity friend say, well, disability
does start with diss so of course it's a lack
of ability, And I said, yeah, well then how do
you explain, discerned disciple and discreete they start with dis No.
Disability is a characteristic that everyone in this on this
planet has. The Only thing about it is that it
(03:45):
manifests itself differently for different people. But everyone has a disability.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And you've just encapsulated in a few minutes of why
I love my job and I love doing this podcast
because yes, as you say, I'm sitting here with a disability.
We have different disabilities, but I didn't and had never
thought of that perspective before. And you are so correct.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Do you use a wheelchair?
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I do, Yes, I use a wheelchair.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So my wife, for her whole life used a wheelchair.
She was a T three pairer. And in two thousand
and three she started using a powerchair because, as one
of her physical medicine doctors said, the body doesn't come
with a lifetime warranty, and her shoulders were starting to go,
so she switched to a powerchair. But you know, again,
(04:36):
the disability is a characteristic and everyone on the planet
has it. Whether you like it or not, it is true.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
And I think your analogy with you know, reflecting how
light dependent we are for those of us who are
not vision impaired or blind.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Really, I'm not visually impaired either, because then that's part
of the problem. People keep saying, well, you're blind or
visually impaired, excuse me visually, I'm not different because I'm
blind impaired. I am not. Period. It's like you talk
to people who are deaf. If you say that they're
hearing impaired, they're liable to punch you in the nose
and bloody your face because they've learned hearing impaired is
(05:14):
not a good way to deal with it. We shouldn't
be compared with people who have full hearing, so deaf
or hard of hearing, and in the case of blind people,
blind and low vision. And you know, I don't want
to mean to interrupt you too much, but I think
it's important that we recognize that words do matter, and
the fact that people keep talking about us as being
(05:35):
visually impaired only serves to accentuate people's misconceptions.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
And it truly just illustrates that even though I'm myself
a part of the community, I am always open to
be educated. And that's why, as I say, I really
love my job, because we've only been speaking for five
minutes and you've opened my eyes and given me a
better perspective. So thank you, I have to say. In
(06:02):
and around the fact you're talking about light dependency and
for those of us who have a twenty twenty vision,
that really illustrates how scary it can be. And I
think that really illustrates what life with a disability can
be like. And I think that's a really great analogy
(06:25):
for people listening who maybe don't have a disability to
really put themselves in our shoes to be like, aha,
I now understand what it's like to feel vulnerable. That
was a word I could get before, vulnerable. I think
that's a really powerful message.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But again, the reality is is that they don't have
our disability, but they need to start to recognize they
have their own. And I'm very serious when I say
that every person on the planet has a disability, and
for most people it's light dependence. We need to start
to recognize that disability doesn't mean in it ability or
lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic that we all have,
(07:06):
and it manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn't
change the fact that it's there, though, and we've got
to get people to start to recognize that just because
we're different than they, it doesn't mean that we're less
than they. I have a master's degree in physics, and
I doubt there are very many people outside of fairly
(07:29):
advanced physics who could tell you what a spherical Handkle
function is, or a Bessel function, which is a mathematical
term as well, or any number of different things. The
fact does that make them less than me, well, of
course it does, because I know physics and they don't know.
It doesn't make them less than me. It is that
we all have our gifts, and everyone's gifts need to
(07:52):
be acknowledged, and we need to begin to start to
recognize as a planet that just because someone doesn't have
some of the same gifts that we do, it doesn't
mean that they don't have gifts that are just as
important as the ones that we have.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Have you always been confident in your disabled identity and
you as a person.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
I think I've learned a lot since I've been speaking publicly,
you know, so as some of your listeners may know
and may not know, I worked in the World Trade
Center on September eleventh, and I escaped, and I was
able to escape because of things that I learned that
prepared me to deal with an emergency. And yeah, I've
(08:36):
been pretty confident about my life in general. My parents
were told when it was discovered at my age of
four months that I was blind. They were told to
send me to a hospital because no blind child could
ever do anything and could ever grow up to be anything.
And my parents said, you're wrong, We're going to bring
him up to do whatever he chooses to do. So
I grew up believing that I could do the same
(08:59):
kinds of things that that other people could do, But
over time I realized, of course I might not do
them exactly the same way other people do them. And
since the World Trade Center events, I have been speaking
a lot. I've been asked a lot of questions, some good,
some totally dumb, but all of those helped me to
(09:21):
more realize what I'm like in my own skin and
have taught me to help to educate people. And then
I started doing my podcast Unstoppable mindset were inclusion, diversity,
and the Unexpected Meat. I've learned a lot about myself,
even just during the time of doing the podcast. But yeah,
(09:44):
I think that my parents helped me recognize that I
could be comfortable in my skin. But I also need
to understand that everyone comes from where they come from,
and it's not up to me to judge people just
because they don't understand blindness. I will do my best
to educate, and I may become less tolerant if they're
(10:06):
not willing to catch on and recognize the blainness isn't
the problem. It's perceptions about people that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I have to say there's a common theme in my
podcast when I speak to disabled people regardless about disability,
that parents are really fundamental informing our identity around disability.
And your story is very similar to mine my parents
regardless of what they were told, Like I was told
that I would never be able to write my own name,
(10:36):
that I would be able to do whatever I wanted
in my own capabilities, and they were happy to foster
that in me. And I'm so glad that was similar
for you, Michael.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
I have seen so many blain people though, who didn't
have that level of support growing up, and they don't
have the confidence that they should. Blindness is one of
probably the most so called feared disability. The Gallop Pulling
organization in this country for years when they surveyed people
about their most significant fears, they put blindness as one
(11:11):
of the top five fears. Not disabilities, but blindness because
we emphasize eyesight so much. And the reality is that
fear is so misplaced, not only about blindness but about
disabilities in general. We all again have gifts, we all
have things we can do, we all have things that
maybe we don't do well.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But so what it's very clear that fear is a
common theme, not only in this conversation but in your work, Michael.
And obviously fear was a big part of you know
you living through September eleventh, that awful day in human history.
How did that event change your perspective on fear and
(11:53):
resilience and the meaning of life.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
When I was hired by Quantum Corporation in nineteen ninety
nine to open an office for them, I realized that
as the leader of that office, I was going to
have to do and be perceived as a leader like
anyone else who would be running that office. So I
spent time traveling around the World Trade Center and learning
where everything was, learning where offices were, learning where all
(12:20):
the kiosks and all the different things on the first floor,
where the shopping mall at the World Trade Center was.
And I also spent time learning all I could about
what to do in the case of an emergency, because
there had been a bombing in nineteen ninety three and
it wasn't very significant, but it caused people to be
afraid of being in the World Trade Center, and they
(12:41):
only had about an eighty percent occupancy rate because people
had moved out due to the bombing, and so we
got a wonderful rate. And so I spent time talking
to the police, the port authority, fire department, security people,
and so on, and also learned all I could about
the building, what the emergency exits were, how the fire
fighters functioned, and all of that, so that no matter
(13:04):
what occurred, I could be the same kind of a
leader that other people would do by reading signs. So,
for example, if we had someone come into our office
to see our products, and then maybe they were going
to stay and we were going to have a discussion
about signing a contract for them to buy our products,
and if we were going to go to lunch, I
(13:26):
couldn't say, well, I'm blind, I don't know how to
get anywhere. Someone's going to have to lead me. How
would it look two hours later when we're back in
the office and we're negotiating a multimillion dollar contract. No,
I needed to be the one to say, what do
you want? Okay, I'll take you, follow me and do that.
What it created to me was a mindset that says,
you know what to do in an emergency, you know
(13:47):
what to do in different situations and circumstances, And that
mindset kicked in on September eleventh. So what it also
meant was I had learned how to use fear in
a productive, positive way. Rather than being overwhelmed or as
I put it, blinded by fear, I learned that you
(14:07):
can use fear as a powerful tool to help motivate
you and direct you and keep you focused. And that's
what happened on September eleventh. This year, we wrote a book,
or published a book called Live Like a Guide Dog.
True Stories from a blind Man and his Dogs about
being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith. And
(14:30):
the issue is that I learned most of what I
know about teamwork and trust and other things from having
eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog. What we
wanted to teach people, and what the book is really
ultimately about, is you can control fear. You don't need
to be overwhelmed when something unexpected or horrible happens. You
(14:51):
can use that fear to keep you focused and help
you do what you need to do. And there were
times going down the stairs, some people on the stairs
in the World Trade Center panicked, but a number of
us worked really hard to keep people focused and not panicking.
My friend David Frank, who was in my office that
(15:13):
day because we were conducting seminars to teach some of
our reseller partners how to sell our products. David lost
it at the fiftieth floor going down and he said, Mike,
we're going to die. We're not going to make it
out of here. And I just said to David, stop it. David,
if Rosella and I can go down these stairs, so
can you. And I snapped at him very deliberately because
I wanted him to snap out of whatever was going
(15:36):
on with him. He told me that that brought him
out of his bunk, but he wanted to do something
to keep his mind off of what was going on.
She said, I'm going to walk a floor below you
and tell you what I see. I'll shout up to you,
and I said okay, and so he did so. For example,
when I was at the forty fifth floor, David said, Hey, Mike,
I'm at the forty fourth floor. This is where the
Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping going on down. The
(15:59):
reason I mentioned that is because what David did was
he shouted up to me at every floor where he
was what he saw. And the result of that was
that he became a focal point for anyone on the
stairs who could hear him, above him or below him.
So again, anyone who could hear him was able to
(16:20):
focus and not be quite as afraid because there was
someone in the stairs who in reality was sounding okay,
and that helped them feel better.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Leadership is so o key, and clearly on that day
it was fundamental for a lot of people to get
out of that situation. But of course a lot of
people also didn't. How did your guide dog react to
this situation? Obviously they trained, but you know, it's not
(16:53):
something you can try and I presume a dog to
do in this very unusual circumstance, particularly in and around bravery.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
If a dog isn't threatened, then they're not going to
face it the same way we are. And nothing threatened Roselle.
As we went down the stairs. She had to sense
what was occurring, but I at the same time kept saying,
good dog, Roselle, what a good dog, Keep going, what
a good dog. Let's go down the stairs, keep going,
good girl. I worked really hard to keep her focused
(17:26):
by just saying to her that she was doing a
good job. And the purpose for that was in part
to keep her focused and to let her know, because
she had the sense that people were afraid, but to
let her know that I was okay. The purpose of
a guide dog is to guide, not lead. So it's
not the dog's job to know where to go and
how to get there. The dog's job is to make
(17:49):
sure that we walk safely. But I have to know
where to go and how to get there, and I
have to be the team leader. And in the situation
of going down those stairs, part of my job as
a leader was to encourage my teammate and make sure
that she didn't feel that I was feeling endangered or
fearful or panicking in any way. So that was also
(18:12):
part of why I was able to focus so much
in going down the stairs and keep in mind, you know.
Then we got outside and we were very close to
tower too when it collapsed, and again nothing really threatened her,
but I kept telling her to hop up or speed
up and run as we did. But the reality is
that what you need to understand is that dogs don't
(18:32):
approach all of this the way we do. When we
got home that night, first thing I did when we
got home, as I took off Roselle's harness and I
was going to take her out, but she would have
none of it. She jerked away, and she ran over,
grabbed her favorite tugbone and started playing tug of war
with my retired guy dog, Lennie, because dogs don't do
what if it was over for Roselle, she knew it
(18:53):
was over. Nothing threatened her or injured her, so.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
It was done.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
We would if everything world and we worry about everything
in the world, and the reality is only a fraction
of that is some are things that we have control over.
And one of my mantras that I learned in and
around the World Trade Center and I talked about afterward,
is don't worry about what you can control. Just focus
on what you can and let the rest take care
(19:20):
of itself, because you're not going to be able to
influence it anyway. So focus on what you can and
stop being so fearful about everything else. And we need
to control our lives and work in our lives, teaching
ourselves things and not being critical but rather being willing
to learn. And I think that that's important to do,
(19:42):
and if more people would do that and spend time
at the end of the day really analyzing what happened
and why was I afraid of that? What can I learn?
You'll develop your mind muscle and become a lot better
at learning to control that fear that we all talk
about out.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
And as far as your partnership with your guide dogs,
what have you learned, particularly since writing your first book
in and around your partnership with your guide dogs? Have
you explored how each relationship is different? Talk to me about.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
That dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally.
I think I instinctively knew that, but again, learning about
it while writing Thunderdog and so on helps because I've
learned to articulate some of those things more than I
used to, and I think it's an important skill to have.
(20:36):
I think it's important to have been able to do that.
It helps me appreciate the team more and it helps
me appreciate the work that they do. And by showing
that appreciation, I hope that they recognize and appreciate me
better for what I do. They want to please, They
want a team leader, and I need to be the
(20:57):
team leader of our team. But we are a him
together and that's important to know.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
And do you feel that your relationship as you've gotten older,
has become stronger with each dog, as you've honed your
skill in leadership.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Oh, I think it has. It's helped me understand it more.
And the more that I understand it and the more
I think about it. Yeah, certainly that helps.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I'm going to take a moment to ask your personal question.
My beloved dog Harley passed away in April, and I've
never experienced grief to this level. Now that's obviously a
very privileged statement to a point, but I miss him
deeply every day. Talk to me about your process of
grief when your guide dog passes away. Given the importance
(21:41):
of this relationship, I imagine it's extremely difficult for you,
is it.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, yes and no. There are a lot of guide
dog users who would yell at me for putting it
this way, But I'm going to when I realize that
a dog needs to retire, it's because they're not performing
as well. They may not be seeing as well at night,
they may be slowing down any number of different things.
My job as the team leader is to be responsible
(22:08):
for my teammate, and when something happens to my teammate,
or if my teammate is stressed. I need to figure
it out. So whenever one of my guide dogs has
to retire, it's because I've made the decision that that's
the best decision for the dog and the best decision
for our team. When I can, I always keep the dog.
(22:31):
And when they pass away, yeah, there's grief, But I
also know that we had a great relationship together, and
so I approach always the process by thinking of it
in terms of a team and the team process. I've
lost several cats, we've lost several guide dogs along the way,
(22:52):
and so on. But the fact of the matter is
that no dog replaces a previous dog, No pay that
replaces a previous pet. What they do is that they
fill new spots in our hearts.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Do you relieve the sounds of not eleven?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Oh? Sure, but I don't do so in a negative way.
I had no control over the World Trade Center happening.
You have no control over having cerebral palsy. The issue is, however,
you do have control, and I had control over how
we deal with what happens to us, and that's the
important part. And so I chose to allow myself to
(23:36):
be interviewed by the media. I chose to go into
a career of public speaking telling my story, and now,
of course it's a little bit different because I tell
my story to a new generation that doesn't even remember
September eleventh. So my job is to tell the story
in a way that draws them in so that they
actually feel that they were there. And people tell me
(23:57):
that all the time from your story, we were there
with you as you were going down the stairs. But
it's important to do that so I don't relive any
of it in fear. I relive it every time I
tell the story, and I think about it a lot,
but not in a fearful or negative way. I always
(24:18):
think about it in terms of what have I learned?
What else is there to learn? It happened? How can
I use my experiences to help other people? And That's
what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And do you feel or did you feel when you
were originally writing your first book Thunderdog? Was it a
way of preserving that and making sure people did remember
and understand Thunderdog.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yes, it tells the story of the World Trade Center,
but it also talks about my life because every chapter
starts out with something from September eleventh, chronologically going through
the day. Then we transition back to things that I
learned in my life that helped with that particular thing,
and then we come back at the end of the
chapter or to continue the September eleventh story. And the
(25:03):
idea is to teach people something. It isn't just telling
the September eleventh story. I want them to learn about blindness.
I want them to learn about blind people. I want
them to learn more about themselves. And then when the
pandemic began, I realized that I've been talking as a
public speaker for at that time nineteen years about what
happened to me. But what I've not been doing is
(25:24):
talking to anyone about how they could learn to control
fear like I learned to control fear. And so we
decided to write the book, and it's teaching people that
they have the ability to control fear and not let
it overwhelm or, as I said, blind them. I have
(25:45):
another book that we wrote kind of in the middle
called Running with Roselle, which was intended for children, the
story of Me growing up, the story of Roselle growing
up and how we met, but more adults by a
thing kids, and it's available through Amazon.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Question I'm really keen to ask you. Firstly, are you
scared at anything, Michael? And what does it mean to
you to be fearless?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Oh, I'm not fearless, but I've learned to focus fear.
I will never say that I am fearless. And you know,
there are a lot of things that get scary. I've
got been in towns and got lost. I went to
Israel last year for a week and I didn't speak Hebrew,
and I didn't really know anyone in the town. And
I took a cab back one evening from Excessive's headquarters
(26:33):
to my hotel, and the driver, rather than letting me
off in front of the hotel, let me off on
the side at the parking lot entrance to the hotel,
which I had never visited before. And I was really
concerned about what I'm going to do to be able
to figure out where I am and how to get
to my hotel, because I didn't even know that he
whether he let me off in front of the hotel
(26:54):
or not. But I focused and I went, wells, just
go to a street corner and see what happens. And
I went to a street corner and heard people talking,
and I went over and they were speaking in English,
so I asked them and it turns out I was
right in front of the hotel. But you know, things happen,
and I've learned that you can focus and you don't
(27:18):
have to let all of this overwhelm you. It was
a little bit scary, but we did okay, and I
made it back to the hotel and all was good
and had a good dinner.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Thank you for listening to this week's episode. I hope
you enjoyed it. If you did, can I ask you
to leave a rating and review on Apple or Spotify.
Share the show with friend on social media. It helps
more people find the podcast. You can always follow me
over on Instagram. My handle is at Pete Hook or
(27:52):
you can send me an email I can't stand podcast
at gmail dot com. Thank you so much Mike for
coming on the I really appreciate it, and thank you
for what you do for the community. Until next week,
have a good one, guys. Bye. I would like to
respectfully acknowledge they were wondery and bun wrong people of
(28:17):
the call and nation of which I record the podcast today,
and I pay my respects to both elders past and present,
along with and especially to those in the First Nation's
communities who are disabled themselves,
Popular Podcasts
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com