September 1, 2024 • 48 mins
Are you seeking strategies to streamline your business operations?
Toyota, the renowned Japanese automotive giant, has developed various methodologies to enhance workplace organisation and boost productivity, with one of the most effective being the 5S model.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick is joined once again by Steve Beauchamp, who shares his innovative take on the 5S model and how it can play a pivotal role in optimising your business processes.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, in my experience of teaching and
mentoring this methodology in mycareer over the last two
decades it's kind of what Ialluded to you learn that things
rarely go the way you thoughtthey were going to go and I've
watched a lot of teams strugglewith the first two phases of
that traditional approach ofsorting and setting things in
(00:21):
order and for a long time Icouldn't really figure out why
and it bothered me that it wassuch a struggle.
And it dawned on me a few yearsago I was reading a quote from
Taiichi Ono, which is one of thefounders of the Toyota
production system, and he saidwithout standards there can be
(00:47):
no improvement.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
This is episode 90 of theIkigai podcast and Steve
Bouchamp joins me today, andSteve joined me on episode 46,
on which we talked about alwaysimproving lessons from the
samurai, and you're returning,steve, to talk about business
(01:22):
transformation with 5S, so it'sgood to have you back on the
show yeah, thanks for invitingme back.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
It's it's hard to believe it's been that many
episodes on the show, but itfelt like it was just like
yesterday when we were chattingabout that other book and uh,
yeah, so it's good to be backgood to have you back here, and
time I mean, that's more thantwo years probably.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So you're right, time goes by quickly, but it feels
like yesterday and steve, wehave something to celebrate.
You've written a leader's guideto optimize workplace
organization, improve morale andincrease productivity with a
book called 5S Mastery.
So congratulations.
This is your third book now.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, yeah, third full-length book.
It's kind of crazy how I'vejust been getting into the
practice of writing and it'sactually become a source of
e-key guy for me to just be ableto sit and write and unpack
what I'm thinking, and sometimesI'll share those things with
other people, and sometimes theyjust kind of get tucked away
(02:30):
into the you know recesses ofthe cloud and, and yeah, I think
it's just, it's beeninteresting to be able to
experience that and allow it to,like, you know, help me, like,
communicate my thoughts, andthen it really just yeah, it
really is a source of ikigai forme and honestly, I would do it
(02:51):
even if nobody read anything Iwrote.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So well, that's inspiring.
I'm still writing and it's abit of a struggle, so at times
it feels like a source of ikigai, when I have those days where I
feel the words are flowing andI'm freely expressing myself,
yeah, and then other days I justcan't seem to find the energy
(03:16):
to write a sentence.
So it's quite challenging.
But I guess, yeah, it's theself-expression.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, and you know, even I have those days too, to
be honest, and I think the greatpart about the whole thing is
that you have other sources ofikia, right?
So if you're like not feelingit, then you'd be like, yeah,
I'm going to go over here andfind something like go out to
nature and just spend some time,like you know, walking in the
(03:48):
trees or listening to birds singor something like that.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So, yeah, I agree totally.
That's what Ken Moggy says isrobust about Ikigai.
If you have multiple sources,it doesn't matter.
If you're not feeling it fromone, you can, yeah, go out in
nature, enjoy a meal, catch upwith a friend, totally yep.
So let's touch on your book.
It opens with the questions doyou find yourself drowning in
(04:14):
clutter, wasting time andfeeling overwhelmed by
disorganization in your business?
Have you tried varioussolutions but they just don't
stick.
And if I'm honest, sometimes Iwould be saying yes to those
questions.
So I'm guessing 5S is theanswer to these questions and in
(04:35):
your book you offer a new 5Sapproach which we will explore
in this episode.
So probably be wise to firsttalk about the traditional 5S
model.
So can you break down the 5Smodel and it's yeah, and what
that is?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, sure.
So I think maybe it's good tokind of go back in time a little
bit to like post-World War IIJapan, back when you know the
country was recovering from youknow, the devastation of what
war brings.
And there was, you know, a groupof folks working at a small
(05:16):
little automotive manufacturerthat you might have heard of
called Toyota, and they they hada few individuals that worked
there that you know really wereprolific in how they thought
about manufacturing, and one ofthe methodologies that they
developed was what we now knowas 5S.
(05:38):
And 5S is, you know, not some,it's not really a fancy kind of
acronym, it's really just allthe words start with the letter
S, and so that's kind of whereit came from, and it's really
been the backbone in themanufacturing world for a long
time, and probably sometime inthe 1980s is when it really
(06:03):
started, you know, kind ofspreading globally.
So let's, you know, maybe it'dbe helpful to talk through, like
their traditional order of how5S has been taught in the
Western world.
So it starts with the first Sand, you know, for the sake of
our listeners, maybe I'll breakout both of the English and the
(06:24):
Japanese at the same time.
So the first one is sort, orSiri.
The second is set in order, orseitan.
Then you have shine, which isseiso, and then you have
standardized seiketsu and thenfinally sustain, which is
(06:48):
Shitsuke.
So you know, it's not an overlyfancy or complicated kind of
methodology.
It's really about how toorganize your workplace in a way
that makes sense and reallyhelps your workplace become just
easier on the people, right?
(07:10):
I think the you know, thetraditional way that it's been
taught in the West, and how Iwas originally taught too, is
this idea of well, you just, youknow, go through this in order.
It's just like a step-by-step,linear kind of path, while you
know we just start with sortingand then we finish with sustain.
And I think the thing that'schallenging about that is it
(07:37):
doesn't really take into accounthow life actually happens in
the workplace.
I think, and you know it kindof makes you feel like, oh,
there's this pressure to likeget to the end, right when it's
like this kind of project, kindof thinking, and I think that's
traditionally how I was taughtand how a lot of people think
(07:58):
about it, and so, yeah, I thinkthat's kind of like a great
introduction to traditionallywhat it's been known as.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
All right, so just to review.
So we have sort, set in order,shine, and then after that we
have standardized sustain, andthere's this linear approach,
sustain and there's this linearapproach, and in your book you
(08:28):
offer an alternative, almost acyclical approach.
So what is your approach thatyou discuss in your book?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
yeah.
So you know, in my experienceof teaching and mentoring this
methodology in my career overthe last two decades it's kind
of what I alluded to you learnthat things rarely go the way
you thought they were going togo, and I've watched a lot of
teams struggle with the firsttwo phases of that traditional
(08:56):
approach of sorting and settingthings in order, and for a long
time I couldn't really figureout why.
And it bothered me that it wassuch a struggle.
And it dawned on me a few yearsago I was reading a quote from
Taiichi Ono, which is one of thefounders of the Toyota
(09:18):
production system, and he saidwithout standards, there can be
no improvement.
And around the same time I hadpicked up a copy of Masaki
Imai's book Kaizen do check, actor action, and the
(09:46):
standardization cycle, which isthe standardized do check action
, also known as, like your dailyroutine, right?
So the way those two thingsinteract with each other, you
have this daily, you know,day-to-day grind.
Basically, if you will Like,this is the work that we do on a
day-to-day grind.
Basically, if you will like,this is the work that we do on a
(10:06):
day-to-day basis and thenperiodically be like ah, we
actually need to make somechanges and improve how we're
doing this day-to-day.
So that's how those two thingsinteract with each other.
And you know I started havingthis realization that there was
an awful lot of conversationaround standardization as really
a foundation for improvement.
(10:27):
And then I started asking thequestion well, why is it that we
wait until the fourth phase of5S to talk about standards?
And it's kind of got me goingdown this road of investigating
and digging into a little bitmore of the context.
(10:47):
And you know, I think you knowkanji is a really fascinating
thing to me.
I know you and I have talkedabout this a lot in the past,
just in this conversation we'vehad, where it's just so much
meaning can be found in just afew strokes of a brush and that
(11:08):
I find very fascinating.
And you know I'm also an avidlearner.
So I started digging into thosekanji symbols that you know
make up those five S that Iintroduced a little bit ago.
And I think it's important tounderstand original context of
what things mean before youstart applying it to yourself.
(11:30):
And so I started digging intothose and realized that you know
, there was some things I thinkwe were missing along the way in
that interpretation.
So that's kind of like how Igot going down this road and you
know, uh.
But I think I'll just pausethere for a second and yeah so
(11:51):
yeah, so you've.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
You've actually got a diagram in your book.
Maybe we'll include in the theshow notes.
That offers this cyclicalapproach.
But I agree with you in termsof the power of studying kanji
rather than just accepting, Iguess, one person's best attempt
to translate a concept or word.
(12:14):
So when you do look at thekanji, it's almost like this
epiphany, it's like ah, now Ihave a greater understanding of
this concept and it can be usedin various contexts and it has a
deeper meaning.
So would you like to touch onsome of these words where you've
explored the kanji and you'veobviously discovered it has more
(12:38):
depth to the meaning?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, I don't know if you're like really paying
attention a little bit ago, butyou'll recognize that four of
the S's all start with say right, which?
is like in the English languagewe spell that S-E-I.
To an English speaking personyou might not really think
(13:07):
anything of that, because you'relike well, it's just the same
thing, because you know,typically in the English
language that you know is very,very much the same almost all
the time.
However, in the kanji you canhave something that sounds
exactly the same but is actuallyvery different, but is actually
very different.
And if you look at the kanjifor these words, they actually
(13:32):
have two of them seiketsu andseiso.
The first, kanji se, in thatone actually refers to purity
and cleanliness, and the othertwo, seiri and seitan, have this
idea of order.
And so then I started unpackingthis a little bit more and
discovered that I think we hadthe order kind of mixed up and I
(13:56):
think we think about this interms of, like this linear
fashion instead of this cyclicalidea that I like to think about
.
So you have this idea ofstandardization at the core of
what we do and because you knowthe full word, say, ketsu isn't
(14:17):
just about this idea of purityand cleanliness, it's that idea
that it's holding everythingtogether right, so that that
like what is uniquely, you know,the thing, that like holds this
all you know, if you aremissing one piece, it all kind
of falls apart kind of idea, andso you're having that at the
(14:39):
center and then this the cycle.
Part of it includes that idea ofwhat used to be referred to as
this shine.
I think that kind of loses alittle bit of the meaning behind
it, and so I like to use theword spotless instead of shine,
because it's beyond.
(15:00):
You know, this idea of justlike cleaning something.
You know this idea of just likecleaning something.
It's the how can you make thislike as, as you know, as pure as
you can, but also be functionaland efficient at the same time?
And then thinking about thisidea of the other two uh, siri,
(15:21):
tom, I discovered in doing someresearch that in most
applications in Japan, these twowords aren't necessarily done
apart from each other.
It's more of a simultaneousthing that's done as, like you
do one thing, you're doing theother.
Right, it's kind of like thisit's understood that that's how
(15:44):
it's done, but when it was likeexplained, I think, and
translated maybe that was kindof lost.
And so this idea of you know,creating order, you know, using
those two from chaos is reallykind of the idea behind it.
And then finally have thecompleting the circles, this
(16:05):
idea of self-discipline, andrather than just sustain,
because I think sustain doesn'treally accurately describe what
you're trying to communicatethrough, what this word actually
means.
And so it's not just aboutsticking to a routine.
It's about that continuousself-reflection and that effort
(16:28):
to take action and improvethings when you need, and so
that's how I think about it inthis cycle, rather than this
linear approach, and also Ithink it puts a lot of pressure
on people to think about doingthis as like a linear one and
done kind of activity.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So, yeah, I think that makes sense.
I'm always looking for ways toimprove my processes and it's
never linear.
There's always a I mean forthis podcast, there is this
process that once it's recorded,I upload it, my team take care
(17:07):
of it, they turn it into a blogpost.
Obviously, they upload theepisode and over the years I've
attempted to improve, you know,the quality of both the audio,
the summary, the images, so itnever feels like there's a
(17:29):
linear approach to it.
I mean, maybe per episode thereis, but the overall process of
doing the podcast it's cyclicalbecause, yeah, I'm looking for a
new guest and we repeat thisprocess.
I'm looking for a new guest andwe repeat this process, but
overall, I think we're alwaysstriving to improve each episode
(17:50):
.
So it's strange for me to thinkabout this essentially as a
one-person business owner withtwo virtual assistants.
And I was going to ask you canwe plan this to any type of
business?
But before I ask you, can weplan this to any type of
business?
But before I ask you that, whatis the benefit of this new
approach you've formulated?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, I think, from my perspective, if you think
about this more in a cyclicalapproach as opposed to a linear,
like you know, project kind ofstyle thinking A, it takes a lot
of pressure off of peoplebecause then it becomes this oh
okay, so this is just what we'redoing and our mindset is, you
(18:36):
know, if we think about how wecould potentially improve upon
this in the future, rather thansaying we have to get this
perfect and we have to get thisright the first time, that puts
a lot of pressure on people.
So I think that's one thingthat this different approach I
think offers.
And you know, it's very muchlike the idea of Kaizen which
(18:57):
you were just talking about,this idea of continually wanting
to improve upon where you areand where you're going, whether
that's, you know, in yourpersonal life or in your
business life, right?
I think it's important torecognize that we're not static
beings, right, like we don'texist in this, like perfect
equilibrium.
We're constantly changing andconstantly evolving, and so you
(19:22):
know and it also really tiesinto the SDCA cycle very well,
right?
So this idea of standardizationthat feeds into the doing, or
the spotless piece of keepingsomething clean, and also then
transitioning into the checkingpiece, which is the sorting,
(19:44):
setting things in order, andthen you have your action step,
which is the self-discipline.
And the thing that reallyoccurred to me in writing this
too was how could you possiblysort and set something in order
if you don't know what thestandard needs to be?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
yeah, there needs to be a benchmark to follow and
further than that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Why would you sort and set in order something that
isn't clean?
I mean, you wouldn't put yourdirty dishes into the cupboards
and then take them out and cleanthem afterwards, right?
I mean that seems kind of weird.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, you never know, with my washing, my wife might
tell me that's what I do.
Anyway, but I totally agree,that's a good metaphor.
Why would you check, putsomething away that's dirty?
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Right, and so it.
Just to me it makes more senseto think about this from the
context of okay, well, let's seta standard, and then let's make
sure that you know things arestarting out in this like clean
fashion, and then we'll figureout how to sort and set things
in order, and then we build thatself-discipline to reflect and
(20:56):
think about, you know, is thereany room for improvement?
And if there is, do we need togo back and adjust our standard?
And then you know, continuallyjust going back, and you know,
over and, over and over again,through that cycle, All right.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So, with this 5S approach, do you think I could
apply it to my business?
So you know what I do.
I have a team of two myself.
So what do you think?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Absolutely.
I think any size business and,honestly, any type of business
could benefit from this kind ofmethodology and approach.
Because when you think about inyour particular context so you
have a very virtual presence,right Like everything is pretty
much done electronically.
(21:46):
Where are you storing all thatelectronic, you know matter?
It's all being stored in thecloud.
Well, if you think about how youstore things in the cloud, just
like thinking about the podcastas like one facet right of the
business that you have, youcertainly wouldn't want to just
have a dumping ground where youjust put things without any kind
(22:09):
of way to know what's what,because it would take you a
really long time to find it ifyou had to go search for it.
Also, it may not be, you know,just aesthetically pleasing to
just have things just all overthe place.
So if you think about settingthat standard of and taking the
podcast episode as an example,right, you would have a standard
(22:31):
, for this is how we find aguest, this is how we, you know,
do the recording and this ishow we do the mastering
afterwards, and so on and so on,and there's there's so many
different facets to it that doapply, no matter what context
you find yourself in, whetherit's virtual or physical.
So, yeah, and I actually talkabout that in the book too, and
(22:56):
I try to break it down in a waythat no matter what type of
business you find yourself in,whether that's a coffee shop or
a bakery, or a virtual presenceor manufacturing, it doesn't
matter.
These concepts are universaland they apply pretty much
(23:16):
across the board.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I can definitely see how it would apply to file
management, and if I'm notcareful, my desktop can be a
mess of images, pdfs, video,audio and that bad habit of I'll
just download it to the desktop.
(23:39):
If I do that 20 times a dayafter five days I've got
hundreds of icons on my desktop.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, and you don't typically see those until you
minimize everything and you'relike whoa, what is going on here
?
This is kind of nuts.
So, yeah, I can totally relateto that.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So that actually might relate to a word of which
your book reminded me of, whichis the Japanese word muda.
So what is muda?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
muda.
So what is muda?
Yeah, so if you think aboutlike a definition, you could
think about it in terms of likeuselessness or pointless.
Often in the business context,it's referred to as waste, right
?
So these things that are notnecessary, no matter what those
happen to be, whether it'sadding more time to accomplish a
task, whether it's likephysically having to move around
(24:42):
things to get somewhere, youknow you can think about it in
this context.
Imagine you need to get to yourdesk in your office and you
have all these boxes in the way,and so you either have to walk
around them, crawl over top ofthem or move them just to be
able to get to your desk.
Well, that's just an example ofwaste, an example of muda.
(25:04):
So it's basically preventingyou from being able to
accomplish really what isnecessary that the customer is
willing to pay you for.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, this was helpful becauseI always associate the word just
to waste.
But I learned from your bookit's obviously something that
impedes process.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's a waste of time and energy.
So that's something to thinkabout.
How are you creating Muda?
And, yeah, going back to filemanagement, that does get to a
point where I've got to stop andorganize and delete files and
find the appropriate places, andthat can take a long time to
(25:57):
solve.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, and you know there's really seven.
You know different types ofmuda.
Traditionally, there's a bunchof different schools of thought
on how many there actually are,but I'm more of a purist, I
guess, so I'm stuck on the seven.
But there's this idea and itforms an acronym.
(26:23):
So, if you want to think abouta way to remember it, the
individual's name is Tim Wood,right?
So you have transportation,inventory, motion, waiting,
overproduction, overprocessingand defects, and so anytime you
(26:45):
have any form of Muda in yourprocess that falls into one of
those seven categories.
It's really taking away fromyou being able to produce what
your customer really wants, andtypically not something your
customer is willing to pay youfor, right Like they're not
willing to pay for your defects,right?
I mean, let's be honest, Nobodylikes things that are broken or
(27:09):
quality defect, right?
So that's kind of like a and Iunpack Muda a little bit in my
book as well for those that wantto dig in a little bit more on
that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, I know Japan's very big on not selling anything
with the slightest defect thatperhaps the average person
wouldn't even notice notice.
So their quality control issomething they really associate
to customer experience.
And yeah, yeah, you, you know,you, I think I've watched videos
(27:45):
of guitar makers and once theguitar is put together, if
there's the slightest bump orscratch on the neck or the body,
it's like we can't sell thisone and it's like, wow, I'd buy
it.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So, yeah, yeah, it's definitely.
It's interesting becausethere's like that, you know,
flip side to that perfection too, where there's like beauty in
the imperfection, and so I thinkit's really fascinating how
there's like those twodiametrically opposed ideas that
(28:27):
coexist in the Japanese culture, and I think that's really, you
know, fascinating to me as well.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, there you go.
Yes, I mean, I remember evenwhen I used to.
I used to help Amazon sellerssell on Amazon Japan and I
remember telling these sellersyour packaging has to be as
almost as good as your productand it's got to be strong and
sturdy and it can't be made fromflimsy paper or cardboard,
(28:59):
because if it arrives with adent or it's slightly greased or
squashed, you're going to getcomplaints on on just the
packaging, whereas in the westwe probably wouldn't worry about
that too much.
Yeah, a lot of thought goes into, I guess, all of these
processes to create a service orproduct where it's, yes,
(29:24):
standardized to this high leveland I guess associated to that
and to the elimination of Mudawould be leadership.
So would you like to touch onthe role of leadership in 5S
implementation?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, I think, and honestly, this, I think, goes,
in my opinion, for everything ina business.
But I think without any kind ofleadership, you know,
continuous improvement effortsare going to fail Right, and and
that's, I think, that's true ofany, any kind of initiative in
a business.
You can't just tell people togo do something and then expect
(30:03):
it to come out exactly the wayyou want it to.
I think you need to set thatexample right For the team to be
able to follow.
And you know, I think whenthere's that failure to do so,
that's where you end up seeingthose instances of oh no, just
do as I say, don't do as I do,right, and that just creates
(30:25):
this like well, what the hell?
Like, why would I be okay?
You know, being on a teamworking for a leader that
doesn't actually practice thethings that they're asking their
, you know, setting vision andallocating appropriate resources
(30:53):
to be able to accomplish tasksthat you're asking the team to
do, and you know that can be abunch of different things in
terms of resource.
It's like being present andbeing a part of like developing
policy and procedure for theteam to be able to know what is
the standard that we're workingtowards, and you know really
(31:17):
being there to then remove thosebarriers that's preventing them
from getting there.
And you know really showingaccountability and celebrating,
also with the team.
I think that's something thatin the West, we're terrible at.
I don't think we celebratesuccess nearly as much as we
should.
You know, I think there's thisfocus on doing more all the time
(31:43):
, and I don't think we stop andrecognize how far we've come.
You know, and like taking amoment to just celebrate.
That, I think is reallyimportant and, as a leader, if
you're not doing that, chancesare your team isn't going to
either.
Right, like it's not somethingyou could expect your team to do
(32:06):
without you setting thatexample for them.
So I think, you know, when itcomes to that leadership role, I
think that's for me reallywhere it kind of comes into play
.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
One would think celebration and that
communication of process successwould be crucial to employee
well-being.
Like you want your employees tofeel what they do is valued and
that this is shared success andit's worth working here.
(32:41):
We appreciate what you do, sowe celebrate our wins.
So that kind of points to thehuman element that you wrote
about of 5S.
So can you touch on that too,the human element in 5S?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
I think it's interesting to mehow often we look at our
processes and our businesses andwe think, oh man, people aren't
working hard enough or they'renot doing the right things and I
don't know why they're notdoing the right things.
And there has to be thisrespect for the people that are
(33:22):
doing the work.
If you're not stopping andcelebrating and appreciating the
(33:45):
people that are part of theteam that are doing the work,
chances are you're going to havea lot of turnover in your
business because people aren'tgoing to want to stay somewhere
where they're not being.
You know you're part of thatteam, like as the leader, like
showing that, hey, you actuallycare about the people that are
doing the work.
And often, you know, people endup just becoming victims of
their process and they are doingthings not because they're
(34:09):
trying to be malicious maliciousand they're trying to have like
bad intent.
I think it's just their handsare tied sometimes and they end
up having to do the things thatthe process is like dictating
that they do.
And I think you know takingtime to show respect for people,
building those standards sothat people understand the
(34:29):
expectation of you.
Know, what do you actually needme to do here, right?
I think, if I reflect on mycareer, the times where my
leaders were very clear aboutwhat they needed from me, I
think made my life a whole lotsmoother in that role, you know
(34:51):
so.
I think that's where the humanconnection piece comes in.
You have to recognize thatthese are people.
These aren't like robots, right?
And no matter how much AI islike rising up in the world, I
think you're always going toneed people, and so it's
important to you know, recognizethem and stay connected to them
(35:14):
.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
So I totally agree and I think in this, in this age
now, where we can outsource alot of our work, we often don't
get to know, you know, thepeople doing our work and we,
yeah, we don't treat them as oneof our team.
(35:35):
Oh, you know, it's like you'rejust an outsource worker or
we'll get it done at thecheapest possible price.
So, yeah, even in my business,I try to be aware of that and
I'm really lucky.
I have a really good team oftwo and I celebrate the wins and
I include them in some of mydecisions.
(35:56):
I ask for their perspective andit's yeah really brought us
together and there's beenlong-term employees now.
So I think the human elementmatters and, yeah, I think you
see them as people first, beforeemployees, yeah, yeah.
So with all of this in mind, apractical approach, or
(36:20):
practicality, is obviouslyreally important.
So how can we implement 5S intoour business?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think you know it's important to internalize that
quote that I shared earlier fromTai Chi Ono, right?
Without standards, there can beno improvement.
And I think if we recognizethat, as you know, if you find
yourself as a leader, inwhatever capacity in your
(36:52):
business and what you're beingasked to be responsible for, I
think it's your responsibilityto understand, like, what does
that standard need to look like?
And that's your starting point,right?
So figure out what thatstandard needs to be and then
figure out, okay, well then,what process do we need to
(37:13):
produce this standard that we'reexpecting?
And everything starts to flowfrom there, right, so you can
measure your success along thattrajectory in a bunch of
different ways.
Like there's a I don't evenknow how many different kinds of
variables you could think of tomeasure, but there's plenty out
there, right?
(37:34):
And?
But if you don't start with astandard, everything else is
meaningless.
Like you could be measuring thecompletely wrong things, you
know, and not actually achievingthe standard that you're
actually wanting to achieve.
And so you know you.
Then, from there, it flows intothat definition of like, okay,
(37:55):
well, what's necessary in orderfor us to produce this thing?
And you know, you flow throughof like those expectations.
We talked about setting vision,you know, documenting how things
should flow and how thatprocess needs to behave, so that
you can then build trainingfrom those documents, so that
(38:17):
people are being trained in aconsistent way.
And then, lastly, is when youleverage technology.
I think we've become very lazyin how we do business these days
where we try to leveragetechnology first.
I think if you don't understandwhat your process is and you
(38:37):
try to leverage technology ormaybe your process isn't awesome
and it's creating a lot ofdefects and you leverage
technology, what ends uphappening is you end up
automating a really bad process,and so I don't think that's a
really great idea or approach.
So get clear on the standardand the process first, and then
(38:59):
allow that technology to youknow, really take you to the
next level, because then you'llhave this ability to make the
process easier on the peopleright, which then is creating
that additional touch point of,like that human element piece.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
This really makes sense, especially when I read
one of your subtitles ofdefining what's necessary.
And if you get that wrong, Iguess everything after that
isn't going to really help yourbusiness.
It will turn to muda, maybe.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, there's a pretty good chance that's going
to happen.
Yeah, and then you're going tocall somebody like me to come
and help you sort it out.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, so that's something I'm going to try to be
more aware of, like, okay,what's necessary here, what's
the vision, what are myexpectations?
But, yeah, what am I defininghere so I can see I could apply
this approach to my business?
And yeah, as you said, there'sall this talk about leveraging
(40:12):
technology, especially with AI.
Now, but, before you jump onthat, I've been quite slow with
the uptake of that because I dohave pretty good systems, I
think.
Yeah, I'm quite cautious todive into what everyone's
(40:32):
talking about just becauseeveryone's saying, oh, it's
going to change your businessand you'll get everything done
quickly.
And so, yeah, this process, Ithink, is very helpful.
And all these things was like oh, yeah, I document processes and
, when required've even offeredtraining to to my team.
(40:55):
I, I take training and yeah, wehave standard operating
procedures.
So I guess that's relatable toconsistency checks.
So I can definitely see how Icould apply this to my business.
And one, I guess one crucialaspect, and maybe related to
defining what's necessary, is aJapanese word you write about
(41:16):
called Hansei.
So what is Hansei?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
So Hansei is a very critical part of that
self-discipline phase that Italk about, and it's a
self-reflective practice that'sreally encouraging you to change
your life.
But it's not just about askingsimple questions and having
(41:42):
simple answers, right, it'sabout thinking about these
questions from the perspectiveof change and, like, in order
for you to come to grips withthe idea of wanting to change
something in your life, you haveto admit that there's a gap,
right.
So you have to understand that,okay, I'm here, you know, but I
(42:05):
want to be way over here, like,okay, well, now we have this
gap that you can be emotionallyconnected to, of like, okay, I
need to close this gap and getcloser to where I want to be.
And you know, if you're notconnected to the gap or the fact
that there is a gap in thefirst place, you know you're not
going to be invested in likeactually getting there.
(42:26):
And so it's really about a it'sa very deep, meaningful
conversation you're having withyourself.
It's not just this like oh yeah, you know I need to like lose a
few pounds or something.
It's not, it's not that simple,right.
It's like it's much, muchdeeper, like digging into that.
(42:47):
And so, you know, I write aboutthe five questions that I've
found to be really helpful indeveloping that kind of practice
for yourself.
And it's starts with and, bythe way, I recommend that you
know, as a leader, you kind ofgo through these questions like
(43:09):
at least once a week withyourself.
And so, yeah, you kind of gothrough these questions like at
least once a week with yourself,um, and so, yeah, typically at
the end of the week is when I dothis, so I'll, I'll sit down
and I'll say to myself okay,well, what did I say?
I was, I was gonna do that.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
I didn't do, uh, and if you want to do this on a
daily basis you would.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
you would do this reflection at the end of each
day and you could just be like,well, what did I say I was going
to do today that I didn't do?
And be honest with yourself,right, because sometimes we can
gloss over that.
But then the next one kind oflike hits me pretty hard,
sometimes Like, what am I proudof that I did today?
Right, because you think aboutthe contrast between those two
(43:54):
is, like really important, Ithink, because then you can get
real with yourself and and thenyou can ask yourself that
question of, well, how did Ilead the people that were around
me and how did I follow?
Because I don't think you cantruly lead unless you know how
to follow.
Um, and then finally, like,looking to tomorrow, based on
what I learned today, what willI do differently?
(44:17):
And really, you know, applyingin real time that like
improvement cycle for yourselfof like, okay, you know how can
I do tomorrow differently than Idid today?
And recognize that it's aprocess, right, it's not a one
and done kind of thing.
It is, you know, just like, howa process operates.
(44:40):
It never stays static, right, aprocess left unattended is
going to shift and drift allover the place, and I think our
personal lives and how we showup for others is very much like
that.
I think there needs to beintention behind it.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I agree.
And to reflect on thesequestions now, what am I proud
of that I did today, so I'mproud that I had you on, steve.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And looking to tomorrow basedon what I've learned today, what
will I do differently?
Well, I might ask myself thesequestions and look at
(45:23):
implementing 5S into my business.
So, yeah, I've definitelylearned a lot.
There's a lot here to, I guess,unpack and look into.
So if our listeners want to dothat, they could purchase your
book Survive S Mastery aStep-by-Step Leader's Guide to
(45:46):
Optimize Workplace Organization,improve Morale and morale and
increase productivity.
Where can people purchase yourbook, steve?
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Yeah, so August 30th, which is a few days away from
when we're recording this, iswhen it'll be available.
It'll be available as paperback, as a hardcover or an ebook,
and if you, you know, justsearch in the search bar in
Amazon, you'll be able to findit.
(46:16):
Just by searching 5S Mastery,it'll show up pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
So Awesome, well, congratulations, you've given me
some motivation.
I'm halfway through a book andI need to uh, yeah, get onto
finishing that.
So thanks again for coming ontothe podcast.
And finally, where can peoplereach out to you?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, I think there's two ways.
Probably the easiest way is uh,and you can find a link to my
profile on the Ikigai tribewebsite in the coach's profile,
and you could also email medirectly.
Steve at stevebushompcom, and Iread all my email, so it's not
(47:07):
being read by some random, uh,outsourced person.
I read all of them and respondto all my emails, so if you want
to reach out to me there, youcan do that as well.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
So Awesome.
Well, thank you again, steve,for joining me, and we will have
you back, perhaps when youwrite your fourth book.
Is there another book in theworks?
Speaker 1 (47:34):
There is actually, um , I haven't fully decided, uh,
decided which direction I'mgoing to go, but I'm in the
process of thinking that throughIt'll be one that's closely
connected to this book that Ijust finished.
You know, my first two bookswere very much connected to each
other.
This next book is a verydifferent kind of direction that
I went uh with this book, andthe fourth book will be very
(47:55):
much connected to this one.
I just haven't fully baked itout just yet but it's, it's in
the works for sure all right.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Well, I look forward to hearing about that and
hopefully, who knows, maybe oneday we'll do a book launch or
something together.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
That'd be cool.
We should totally do that.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
All right, buddy, good to chat with you and speak
to you soon.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, right on.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Appreciate it, my pleasure,steve.
You know, in my experience of teaching and
mentoring this methodology in mycareer over the last two
decades it's kind of what Ialluded to you learn that things
rarely go the way you thoughtthey were going to go and I've
watched a lot of teams strugglewith the first two phases of
that traditional approach ofsorting and setting things in
(00:21):
order and for a long time Icouldn't really figure out why
and it bothered me that it wassuch a struggle.
And it dawned on me a few yearsago I was reading a quote from
Taiichi Ono, which is one of thefounders of the Toyota
production system, and he saidwithout standards there can be
(00:47):
no improvement.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
This is episode 90 of theIkigai podcast and Steve
Bouchamp joins me today, andSteve joined me on episode 46,
on which we talked about alwaysimproving lessons from the
samurai, and you're returning,steve, to talk about business
(01:22):
transformation with 5S, so it'sgood to have you back on the
show yeah, thanks for invitingme back.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
It's it's hard to believe it's been that many
episodes on the show, but itfelt like it was just like
yesterday when we were chattingabout that other book and uh,
yeah, so it's good to be backgood to have you back here, and
time I mean, that's more thantwo years probably.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So you're right, time goes by quickly, but it feels
like yesterday and steve, wehave something to celebrate.
You've written a leader's guideto optimize workplace
organization, improve morale andincrease productivity with a
book called 5S Mastery.
So congratulations.
This is your third book now.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, yeah, third full-length book.
It's kind of crazy how I'vejust been getting into the
practice of writing and it'sactually become a source of
e-key guy for me to just be ableto sit and write and unpack
what I'm thinking, and sometimesI'll share those things with
other people, and sometimes theyjust kind of get tucked away
(02:30):
into the you know recesses ofthe cloud and, and yeah, I think
it's just, it's beeninteresting to be able to
experience that and allow it to,like, you know, help me, like,
communicate my thoughts, andthen it really just yeah, it
really is a source of ikigai forme and honestly, I would do it
(02:51):
even if nobody read anything Iwrote.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So well, that's inspiring.
I'm still writing and it's abit of a struggle, so at times
it feels like a source of ikigai, when I have those days where I
feel the words are flowing andI'm freely expressing myself,
yeah, and then other days I justcan't seem to find the energy
(03:16):
to write a sentence.
So it's quite challenging.
But I guess, yeah, it's theself-expression.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, and you know, even I have those days too, to
be honest, and I think the greatpart about the whole thing is
that you have other sources ofikia, right?
So if you're like not feelingit, then you'd be like, yeah,
I'm going to go over here andfind something like go out to
nature and just spend some time,like you know, walking in the
(03:48):
trees or listening to birds singor something like that.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So, yeah, I agree totally.
That's what Ken Moggy says isrobust about Ikigai.
If you have multiple sources,it doesn't matter.
If you're not feeling it fromone, you can, yeah, go out in
nature, enjoy a meal, catch upwith a friend, totally yep.
So let's touch on your book.
It opens with the questions doyou find yourself drowning in
(04:14):
clutter, wasting time andfeeling overwhelmed by
disorganization in your business?
Have you tried varioussolutions but they just don't
stick.
And if I'm honest, sometimes Iwould be saying yes to those
questions.
So I'm guessing 5S is theanswer to these questions and in
(04:35):
your book you offer a new 5Sapproach which we will explore
in this episode.
So probably be wise to firsttalk about the traditional 5S
model.
So can you break down the 5Smodel and it's yeah, and what
that is?
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, sure.
So I think maybe it's good tokind of go back in time a little
bit to like post-World War IIJapan, back when you know the
country was recovering from youknow, the devastation of what
war brings.
And there was, you know, a groupof folks working at a small
(05:16):
little automotive manufacturerthat you might have heard of
called Toyota, and they they hada few individuals that worked
there that you know really wereprolific in how they thought
about manufacturing, and one ofthe methodologies that they
developed was what we now knowas 5S.
(05:38):
And 5S is, you know, not some,it's not really a fancy kind of
acronym, it's really just allthe words start with the letter
S, and so that's kind of whereit came from, and it's really
been the backbone in themanufacturing world for a long
time, and probably sometime inthe 1980s is when it really
(06:03):
started, you know, kind ofspreading globally.
So let's, you know, maybe it'dbe helpful to talk through, like
their traditional order of how5S has been taught in the
Western world.
So it starts with the first Sand, you know, for the sake of
our listeners, maybe I'll breakout both of the English and the
(06:24):
Japanese at the same time.
So the first one is sort, orSiri.
The second is set in order, orseitan.
Then you have shine, which isseiso, and then you have
standardized seiketsu and thenfinally sustain, which is
(06:48):
Shitsuke.
So you know, it's not an overlyfancy or complicated kind of
methodology.
It's really about how toorganize your workplace in a way
that makes sense and reallyhelps your workplace become just
easier on the people, right?
(07:10):
I think the you know, thetraditional way that it's been
taught in the West, and how Iwas originally taught too, is
this idea of well, you just, youknow, go through this in order.
It's just like a step-by-step,linear kind of path, while you
know we just start with sortingand then we finish with sustain.
And I think the thing that'schallenging about that is it
(07:37):
doesn't really take into accounthow life actually happens in
the workplace.
I think, and you know it kindof makes you feel like, oh,
there's this pressure to likeget to the end, right when it's
like this kind of project, kindof thinking, and I think that's
traditionally how I was taughtand how a lot of people think
(07:58):
about it, and so, yeah, I thinkthat's kind of like a great
introduction to traditionallywhat it's been known as.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
All right, so just to review.
So we have sort, set in order,shine, and then after that we
have standardized sustain, andthere's this linear approach,
sustain and there's this linearapproach, and in your book you
(08:28):
offer an alternative, almost acyclical approach.
So what is your approach thatyou discuss in your book?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
yeah.
So you know, in my experienceof teaching and mentoring this
methodology in my career overthe last two decades it's kind
of what I alluded to you learnthat things rarely go the way
you thought they were going togo, and I've watched a lot of
teams struggle with the firsttwo phases of that traditional
(08:56):
approach of sorting and settingthings in order, and for a long
time I couldn't really figureout why.
And it bothered me that it wassuch a struggle.
And it dawned on me a few yearsago I was reading a quote from
Taiichi Ono, which is one of thefounders of the Toyota
(09:18):
production system, and he saidwithout standards, there can be
no improvement.
And around the same time I hadpicked up a copy of Masaki
Imai's book Kaizen do check, actor action, and the
(09:46):
standardization cycle, which isthe standardized do check action
, also known as, like your dailyroutine, right?
So the way those two thingsinteract with each other, you
have this daily, you know,day-to-day grind.
Basically, if you will Like,this is the work that we do on a
day-to-day grind.
Basically, if you will like,this is the work that we do on a
(10:06):
day-to-day basis and thenperiodically be like ah, we
actually need to make somechanges and improve how we're
doing this day-to-day.
So that's how those two thingsinteract with each other.
And you know I started havingthis realization that there was
an awful lot of conversationaround standardization as really
a foundation for improvement.
(10:27):
And then I started asking thequestion well, why is it that we
wait until the fourth phase of5S to talk about standards?
And it's kind of got me goingdown this road of investigating
and digging into a little bitmore of the context.
(10:47):
And you know, I think you knowkanji is a really fascinating
thing to me.
I know you and I have talkedabout this a lot in the past,
just in this conversation we'vehad, where it's just so much
meaning can be found in just afew strokes of a brush and that
(11:08):
I find very fascinating.
And you know I'm also an avidlearner.
So I started digging into thosekanji symbols that you know
make up those five S that Iintroduced a little bit ago.
And I think it's important tounderstand original context of
what things mean before youstart applying it to yourself.
(11:30):
And so I started digging intothose and realized that you know
, there was some things I thinkwe were missing along the way in
that interpretation.
So that's kind of like how Igot going down this road and you
know, uh.
But I think I'll just pausethere for a second and yeah so
(11:51):
yeah, so you've.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
You've actually got a diagram in your book.
Maybe we'll include in the theshow notes.
That offers this cyclicalapproach.
But I agree with you in termsof the power of studying kanji
rather than just accepting, Iguess, one person's best attempt
to translate a concept or word.
(12:14):
So when you do look at thekanji, it's almost like this
epiphany, it's like ah, now Ihave a greater understanding of
this concept and it can be usedin various contexts and it has a
deeper meaning.
So would you like to touch onsome of these words where you've
explored the kanji and you'veobviously discovered it has more
(12:38):
depth to the meaning?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah, I don't know if you're like really paying
attention a little bit ago, butyou'll recognize that four of
the S's all start with say right, which?
is like in the English languagewe spell that S-E-I.
To an English speaking personyou might not really think
(13:07):
anything of that, because you'relike well, it's just the same
thing, because you know,typically in the English
language that you know is very,very much the same almost all
the time.
However, in the kanji you canhave something that sounds
exactly the same but is actuallyvery different, but is actually
very different.
And if you look at the kanjifor these words, they actually
(13:32):
have two of them seiketsu andseiso.
The first, kanji se, in thatone actually refers to purity
and cleanliness, and the othertwo, seiri and seitan, have this
idea of order.
And so then I started unpackingthis a little bit more and
discovered that I think we hadthe order kind of mixed up and I
(13:56):
think we think about this interms of, like this linear
fashion instead of this cyclicalidea that I like to think about
.
So you have this idea ofstandardization at the core of
what we do and because you knowthe full word, say, ketsu isn't
(14:17):
just about this idea of purityand cleanliness, it's that idea
that it's holding everythingtogether right, so that that
like what is uniquely, you know,the thing, that like holds this
all you know, if you aremissing one piece, it all kind
of falls apart kind of idea, andso you're having that at the
(14:39):
center and then this the cycle.
Part of it includes that idea ofwhat used to be referred to as
this shine.
I think that kind of loses alittle bit of the meaning behind
it, and so I like to use theword spotless instead of shine,
because it's beyond.
(15:00):
You know, this idea of justlike cleaning something.
You know this idea of just likecleaning something.
It's the how can you make thislike as, as you know, as pure as
you can, but also be functionaland efficient at the same time?
And then thinking about thisidea of the other two uh, siri,
(15:21):
tom, I discovered in doing someresearch that in most
applications in Japan, these twowords aren't necessarily done
apart from each other.
It's more of a simultaneousthing that's done as, like you
do one thing, you're doing theother.
Right, it's kind of like thisit's understood that that's how
(15:44):
it's done, but when it was likeexplained, I think, and
translated maybe that was kindof lost.
And so this idea of you know,creating order, you know, using
those two from chaos is reallykind of the idea behind it.
And then finally have thecompleting the circles, this
(16:05):
idea of self-discipline, andrather than just sustain,
because I think sustain doesn'treally accurately describe what
you're trying to communicatethrough, what this word actually
means.
And so it's not just aboutsticking to a routine.
It's about that continuousself-reflection and that effort
(16:28):
to take action and improvethings when you need, and so
that's how I think about it inthis cycle, rather than this
linear approach, and also Ithink it puts a lot of pressure
on people to think about doingthis as like a linear one and
done kind of activity.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So, yeah, I think that makes sense.
I'm always looking for ways toimprove my processes and it's
never linear.
There's always a I mean forthis podcast, there is this
process that once it's recorded,I upload it, my team take care
(17:07):
of it, they turn it into a blogpost.
Obviously, they upload theepisode and over the years I've
attempted to improve, you know,the quality of both the audio,
the summary, the images, so itnever feels like there's a
(17:29):
linear approach to it.
I mean, maybe per episode thereis, but the overall process of
doing the podcast it's cyclicalbecause, yeah, I'm looking for a
new guest and we repeat thisprocess.
I'm looking for a new guest andwe repeat this process, but
overall, I think we're alwaysstriving to improve each episode
(17:50):
.
So it's strange for me to thinkabout this essentially as a
one-person business owner withtwo virtual assistants.
And I was going to ask you canwe plan this to any type of
business?
But before I ask you, can weplan this to any type of
business?
But before I ask you that, whatis the benefit of this new
approach you've formulated?
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, I think, from my perspective, if you think
about this more in a cyclicalapproach as opposed to a linear,
like you know, project kind ofstyle thinking A, it takes a lot
of pressure off of peoplebecause then it becomes this oh
okay, so this is just what we'redoing and our mindset is, you
(18:36):
know, if we think about how wecould potentially improve upon
this in the future, rather thansaying we have to get this
perfect and we have to get thisright the first time, that puts
a lot of pressure on people.
So I think that's one thingthat this different approach I
think offers.
And you know, it's very muchlike the idea of Kaizen which
(18:57):
you were just talking about,this idea of continually wanting
to improve upon where you areand where you're going, whether
that's, you know, in yourpersonal life or in your
business life, right?
I think it's important torecognize that we're not static
beings, right, like we don'texist in this, like perfect
equilibrium.
We're constantly changing andconstantly evolving, and so you
(19:22):
know and it also really tiesinto the SDCA cycle very well,
right?
So this idea of standardizationthat feeds into the doing, or
the spotless piece of keepingsomething clean, and also then
transitioning into the checkingpiece, which is the sorting,
(19:44):
setting things in order, andthen you have your action step,
which is the self-discipline.
And the thing that reallyoccurred to me in writing this
too was how could you possiblysort and set something in order
if you don't know what thestandard needs to be?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
yeah, there needs to be a benchmark to follow and
further than that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Why would you sort and set in order something that
isn't clean?
I mean, you wouldn't put yourdirty dishes into the cupboards
and then take them out and cleanthem afterwards, right?
I mean that seems kind of weird.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, you never know, with my washing, my wife might
tell me that's what I do.
Anyway, but I totally agree,that's a good metaphor.
Why would you check, putsomething away that's dirty?
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Right, and so it.
Just to me it makes more senseto think about this from the
context of okay, well, let's seta standard, and then let's make
sure that you know things arestarting out in this like clean
fashion, and then we'll figureout how to sort and set things
in order, and then we build thatself-discipline to reflect and
(20:56):
think about, you know, is thereany room for improvement?
And if there is, do we need togo back and adjust our standard?
And then you know, continuallyjust going back, and you know,
over and, over and over again,through that cycle, All right.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So, with this 5S approach, do you think I could
apply it to my business?
So you know what I do.
I have a team of two myself.
So what do you think?
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Absolutely.
I think any size business and,honestly, any type of business
could benefit from this kind ofmethodology and approach.
Because when you think about inyour particular context so you
have a very virtual presence,right Like everything is pretty
much done electronically.
(21:46):
Where are you storing all thatelectronic, you know matter?
It's all being stored in thecloud.
Well, if you think about how youstore things in the cloud, just
like thinking about the podcastas like one facet right of the
business that you have, youcertainly wouldn't want to just
have a dumping ground where youjust put things without any kind
(22:09):
of way to know what's what,because it would take you a
really long time to find it ifyou had to go search for it.
Also, it may not be, you know,just aesthetically pleasing to
just have things just all overthe place.
So if you think about settingthat standard of and taking the
podcast episode as an example,right, you would have a standard
(22:31):
, for this is how we find aguest, this is how we, you know,
do the recording and this ishow we do the mastering
afterwards, and so on and so on,and there's there's so many
different facets to it that doapply, no matter what context
you find yourself in, whetherit's virtual or physical.
So, yeah, and I actually talkabout that in the book too, and
(22:56):
I try to break it down in a waythat no matter what type of
business you find yourself in,whether that's a coffee shop or
a bakery, or a virtual presenceor manufacturing, it doesn't
matter.
These concepts are universaland they apply pretty much
(23:16):
across the board.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I can definitely see how it would apply to file
management, and if I'm notcareful, my desktop can be a
mess of images, pdfs, video,audio and that bad habit of I'll
just download it to the desktop.
(23:39):
If I do that 20 times a dayafter five days I've got
hundreds of icons on my desktop.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, and you don't typically see those until you
minimize everything and you'relike whoa, what is going on here
?
This is kind of nuts.
So, yeah, I can totally relateto that.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
So that actually might relate to a word of which
your book reminded me of, whichis the Japanese word muda.
So what is muda?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
muda.
So what is muda?
Yeah, so if you think aboutlike a definition, you could
think about it in terms of likeuselessness or pointless.
Often in the business context,it's referred to as waste, right
?
So these things that are notnecessary, no matter what those
happen to be, whether it'sadding more time to accomplish a
task, whether it's likephysically having to move around
(24:42):
things to get somewhere, youknow you can think about it in
this context.
Imagine you need to get to yourdesk in your office and you
have all these boxes in the way,and so you either have to walk
around them, crawl over top ofthem or move them just to be
able to get to your desk.
Well, that's just an example ofwaste, an example of muda.
(25:04):
So it's basically preventingyou from being able to
accomplish really what isnecessary that the customer is
willing to pay you for.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah.
Yeah, this was helpful becauseI always associate the word just
to waste.
But I learned from your bookit's obviously something that
impedes process.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's a waste of time and energy.
So that's something to thinkabout.
How are you creating Muda?
And, yeah, going back to filemanagement, that does get to a
point where I've got to stop andorganize and delete files and
find the appropriate places, andthat can take a long time to
(25:57):
solve.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah, and you know there's really seven.
You know different types ofmuda.
Traditionally, there's a bunchof different schools of thought
on how many there actually are,but I'm more of a purist, I
guess, so I'm stuck on the seven.
But there's this idea and itforms an acronym.
(26:23):
So, if you want to think abouta way to remember it, the
individual's name is Tim Wood,right?
So you have transportation,inventory, motion, waiting,
overproduction, overprocessingand defects, and so anytime you
(26:45):
have any form of Muda in yourprocess that falls into one of
those seven categories.
It's really taking away fromyou being able to produce what
your customer really wants, andtypically not something your
customer is willing to pay youfor, right Like they're not
willing to pay for your defects,right?
I mean, let's be honest, Nobodylikes things that are broken or
(27:09):
quality defect, right?
So that's kind of like a and Iunpack Muda a little bit in my
book as well for those that wantto dig in a little bit more on
that.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, I know Japan's very big on not selling anything
with the slightest defect thatperhaps the average person
wouldn't even notice notice.
So their quality control issomething they really associate
to customer experience.
And yeah, yeah, you, you know,you, I think I've watched videos
(27:45):
of guitar makers and once theguitar is put together, if
there's the slightest bump orscratch on the neck or the body,
it's like we can't sell thisone and it's like, wow, I'd buy
it.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So, yeah, yeah, it's definitely.
It's interesting becausethere's like that, you know,
flip side to that perfection too, where there's like beauty in
the imperfection, and so I thinkit's really fascinating how
there's like those twodiametrically opposed ideas that
(28:27):
coexist in the Japanese culture, and I think that's really, you
know, fascinating to me as well.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, there you go.
Yes, I mean, I remember evenwhen I used to.
I used to help Amazon sellerssell on Amazon Japan and I
remember telling these sellersyour packaging has to be as
almost as good as your productand it's got to be strong and
sturdy and it can't be made fromflimsy paper or cardboard,
(28:59):
because if it arrives with adent or it's slightly greased or
squashed, you're going to getcomplaints on on just the
packaging, whereas in the westwe probably wouldn't worry about
that too much.
Yeah, a lot of thought goes into, I guess, all of these
processes to create a service orproduct where it's, yes,
(29:24):
standardized to this high leveland I guess associated to that
and to the elimination of Mudawould be leadership.
So would you like to touch onthe role of leadership in 5S
implementation?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, I think, and honestly, this, I think, goes,
in my opinion, for everything ina business.
But I think without any kind ofleadership, you know,
continuous improvement effortsare going to fail Right, and and
that's, I think, that's true ofany, any kind of initiative in
a business.
You can't just tell people togo do something and then expect
(30:03):
it to come out exactly the wayyou want it to.
I think you need to set thatexample right For the team to be
able to follow.
And you know, I think whenthere's that failure to do so,
that's where you end up seeingthose instances of oh no, just
do as I say, don't do as I do,right, and that just creates
(30:25):
this like well, what the hell?
Like, why would I be okay?
You know, being on a teamworking for a leader that
doesn't actually practice thethings that they're asking their
, you know, setting vision andallocating appropriate resources
(30:53):
to be able to accomplish tasksthat you're asking the team to
do, and you know that can be abunch of different things in
terms of resource.
It's like being present andbeing a part of like developing
policy and procedure for theteam to be able to know what is
the standard that we're workingtowards, and you know really
(31:17):
being there to then remove thosebarriers that's preventing them
from getting there.
And you know really showingaccountability and celebrating,
also with the team.
I think that's something thatin the West, we're terrible at.
I don't think we celebratesuccess nearly as much as we
should.
You know, I think there's thisfocus on doing more all the time
(31:43):
, and I don't think we stop andrecognize how far we've come.
You know, and like taking amoment to just celebrate.
That, I think is reallyimportant and, as a leader, if
you're not doing that, chancesare your team isn't going to
either.
Right, like it's not somethingyou could expect your team to do
(32:06):
without you setting thatexample for them.
So I think, you know, when itcomes to that leadership role, I
think that's for me reallywhere it kind of comes into play
.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
One would think celebration and that
communication of process successwould be crucial to employee
well-being.
Like you want your employees tofeel what they do is valued and
that this is shared success andit's worth working here.
(32:41):
We appreciate what you do, sowe celebrate our wins.
So that kind of points to thehuman element that you wrote
about of 5S.
So can you touch on that too,the human element in 5S?
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
I think it's interesting to mehow often we look at our
processes and our businesses andwe think, oh man, people aren't
working hard enough or they'renot doing the right things and I
don't know why they're notdoing the right things.
And there has to be thisrespect for the people that are
(33:22):
doing the work.
If you're not stopping andcelebrating and appreciating the
(33:45):
people that are part of theteam that are doing the work,
chances are you're going to havea lot of turnover in your
business because people aren'tgoing to want to stay somewhere
where they're not being.
You know you're part of thatteam, like as the leader, like
showing that, hey, you actuallycare about the people that are
doing the work.
And often, you know, people endup just becoming victims of
their process and they are doingthings not because they're
(34:09):
trying to be malicious maliciousand they're trying to have like
bad intent.
I think it's just their handsare tied sometimes and they end
up having to do the things thatthe process is like dictating
that they do.
And I think you know takingtime to show respect for people,
building those standards sothat people understand the
(34:29):
expectation of you.
Know, what do you actually needme to do here, right?
I think, if I reflect on mycareer, the times where my
leaders were very clear aboutwhat they needed from me, I
think made my life a whole lotsmoother in that role, you know
(34:51):
so.
I think that's where the humanconnection piece comes in.
You have to recognize thatthese are people.
These aren't like robots, right?
And no matter how much AI islike rising up in the world, I
think you're always going toneed people, and so it's
important to you know, recognizethem and stay connected to them
(35:14):
.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
So I totally agree and I think in this, in this age
now, where we can outsource alot of our work, we often don't
get to know, you know, thepeople doing our work and we,
yeah, we don't treat them as oneof our team.
(35:35):
Oh, you know, it's like you'rejust an outsource worker or
we'll get it done at thecheapest possible price.
So, yeah, even in my business,I try to be aware of that and
I'm really lucky.
I have a really good team oftwo and I celebrate the wins and
I include them in some of mydecisions.
(35:56):
I ask for their perspective andit's yeah really brought us
together and there's beenlong-term employees now.
So I think the human elementmatters and, yeah, I think you
see them as people first, beforeemployees, yeah, yeah.
So with all of this in mind, apractical approach, or
(36:20):
practicality, is obviouslyreally important.
So how can we implement 5S intoour business?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I think you know it's important to internalize that
quote that I shared earlier fromTai Chi Ono, right?
Without standards, there can beno improvement.
And I think if we recognizethat, as you know, if you find
yourself as a leader, inwhatever capacity in your
(36:52):
business and what you're beingasked to be responsible for, I
think it's your responsibilityto understand, like, what does
that standard need to look like?
And that's your starting point,right?
So figure out what thatstandard needs to be and then
figure out, okay, well then,what process do we need to
(37:13):
produce this standard that we'reexpecting?
And everything starts to flowfrom there, right, so you can
measure your success along thattrajectory in a bunch of
different ways.
Like there's a I don't evenknow how many different kinds of
variables you could think of tomeasure, but there's plenty out
there, right?
(37:34):
And?
But if you don't start with astandard, everything else is
meaningless.
Like you could be measuring thecompletely wrong things, you
know, and not actually achievingthe standard that you're
actually wanting to achieve.
And so you know you.
Then, from there, it flows intothat definition of like, okay,
(37:55):
well, what's necessary in orderfor us to produce this thing?
And you know, you flow throughof like those expectations.
We talked about setting vision,you know, documenting how things
should flow and how thatprocess needs to behave, so that
you can then build trainingfrom those documents, so that
(38:17):
people are being trained in aconsistent way.
And then, lastly, is when youleverage technology.
I think we've become very lazyin how we do business these days
where we try to leveragetechnology first.
I think if you don't understandwhat your process is and you
(38:37):
try to leverage technology ormaybe your process isn't awesome
and it's creating a lot ofdefects and you leverage
technology, what ends uphappening is you end up
automating a really bad process,and so I don't think that's a
really great idea or approach.
So get clear on the standardand the process first, and then
(38:59):
allow that technology to youknow, really take you to the
next level, because then you'llhave this ability to make the
process easier on the peopleright, which then is creating
that additional touch point of,like that human element piece.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
This really makes sense, especially when I read
one of your subtitles ofdefining what's necessary.
And if you get that wrong, Iguess everything after that
isn't going to really help yourbusiness.
It will turn to muda, maybe.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, there's a pretty good chance that's going
to happen.
Yeah, and then you're going tocall somebody like me to come
and help you sort it out.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Yeah, so that's something I'm going to try to be
more aware of, like, okay,what's necessary here, what's
the vision, what are myexpectations?
But, yeah, what am I defininghere so I can see I could apply
this approach to my business?
And yeah, as you said, there'sall this talk about leveraging
(40:12):
technology, especially with AI.
Now, but, before you jump onthat, I've been quite slow with
the uptake of that because I dohave pretty good systems, I
think.
Yeah, I'm quite cautious todive into what everyone's
(40:32):
talking about just becauseeveryone's saying, oh, it's
going to change your businessand you'll get everything done
quickly.
And so, yeah, this process, Ithink, is very helpful.
And all these things was like oh, yeah, I document processes and
, when required've even offeredtraining to to my team.
(40:55):
I, I take training and yeah, wehave standard operating
procedures.
So I guess that's relatable toconsistency checks.
So I can definitely see how Icould apply this to my business.
And one, I guess one crucialaspect, and maybe related to
defining what's necessary, is aJapanese word you write about
(41:16):
called Hansei.
So what is Hansei?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
So Hansei is a very critical part of that
self-discipline phase that Italk about, and it's a
self-reflective practice that'sreally encouraging you to change
your life.
But it's not just about askingsimple questions and having
(41:42):
simple answers, right, it'sabout thinking about these
questions from the perspectiveof change and, like, in order
for you to come to grips withthe idea of wanting to change
something in your life, you haveto admit that there's a gap,
right.
So you have to understand that,okay, I'm here, you know, but I
(42:05):
want to be way over here, like,okay, well, now we have this
gap that you can be emotionallyconnected to, of like, okay, I
need to close this gap and getcloser to where I want to be.
And you know, if you're notconnected to the gap or the fact
that there is a gap in thefirst place, you know you're not
going to be invested in likeactually getting there.
(42:26):
And so it's really about a it'sa very deep, meaningful
conversation you're having withyourself.
It's not just this like oh yeah, you know I need to like lose a
few pounds or something.
It's not, it's not that simple,right.
It's like it's much, muchdeeper, like digging into that.
(42:47):
And so, you know, I write aboutthe five questions that I've
found to be really helpful indeveloping that kind of practice
for yourself.
And it's starts with and, bythe way, I recommend that you
know, as a leader, you kind ofgo through these questions like
(43:09):
at least once a week withyourself.
And so, yeah, you kind of gothrough these questions like at
least once a week with yourself,um, and so, yeah, typically at
the end of the week is when I dothis, so I'll, I'll sit down
and I'll say to myself okay,well, what did I say?
I was, I was gonna do that.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
I didn't do, uh, and if you want to do this on a
daily basis you would.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
you would do this reflection at the end of each
day and you could just be like,well, what did I say I was going
to do today that I didn't do?
And be honest with yourself,right, because sometimes we can
gloss over that.
But then the next one kind oflike hits me pretty hard,
sometimes Like, what am I proudof that I did today?
Right, because you think aboutthe contrast between those two
(43:54):
is, like really important, Ithink, because then you can get
real with yourself and and thenyou can ask yourself that
question of, well, how did Ilead the people that were around
me and how did I follow?
Because I don't think you cantruly lead unless you know how
to follow.
Um, and then finally, like,looking to tomorrow, based on
what I learned today, what willI do differently?
(44:17):
And really, you know, applyingin real time that like
improvement cycle for yourselfof like, okay, you know how can
I do tomorrow differently than Idid today?
And recognize that it's aprocess, right, it's not a one
and done kind of thing.
It is, you know, just like, howa process operates.
(44:40):
It never stays static, right, aprocess left unattended is
going to shift and drift allover the place, and I think our
personal lives and how we showup for others is very much like
that.
I think there needs to beintention behind it.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I agree.
And to reflect on thesequestions now, what am I proud
of that I did today, so I'mproud that I had you on, steve.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And looking to tomorrow basedon what I've learned today, what
will I do differently?
Well, I might ask myself thesequestions and look at
(45:23):
implementing 5S into my business.
So, yeah, I've definitelylearned a lot.
There's a lot here to, I guess,unpack and look into.
So if our listeners want to dothat, they could purchase your
book Survive S Mastery aStep-by-Step Leader's Guide to
(45:46):
Optimize Workplace Organization,improve Morale and morale and
increase productivity.
Where can people purchase yourbook, steve?
Speaker 1 (45:54):
Yeah, so August 30th, which is a few days away from
when we're recording this, iswhen it'll be available.
It'll be available as paperback, as a hardcover or an ebook,
and if you, you know, justsearch in the search bar in
Amazon, you'll be able to findit.
(46:16):
Just by searching 5S Mastery,it'll show up pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
So Awesome, well, congratulations, you've given me
some motivation.
I'm halfway through a book andI need to uh, yeah, get onto
finishing that.
So thanks again for coming ontothe podcast.
And finally, where can peoplereach out to you?
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, I think there's two ways.
Probably the easiest way is uh,and you can find a link to my
profile on the Ikigai tribewebsite in the coach's profile,
and you could also email medirectly.
Steve at stevebushompcom, and Iread all my email, so it's not
(47:07):
being read by some random, uh,outsourced person.
I read all of them and respondto all my emails, so if you want
to reach out to me there, youcan do that as well.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
So Awesome.
Well, thank you again, steve,for joining me, and we will have
you back, perhaps when youwrite your fourth book.
Is there another book in theworks?
Speaker 1 (47:34):
There is actually, um , I haven't fully decided, uh,
decided which direction I'mgoing to go, but I'm in the
process of thinking that throughIt'll be one that's closely
connected to this book that Ijust finished.
You know, my first two bookswere very much connected to each
other.
This next book is a verydifferent kind of direction that
I went uh with this book, andthe fourth book will be very
(47:55):
much connected to this one.
I just haven't fully baked itout just yet but it's, it's in
the works for sure all right.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Well, I look forward to hearing about that and
hopefully, who knows, maybe oneday we'll do a book launch or
something together.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
That'd be cool.
We should totally do that.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
All right, buddy, good to chat with you and speak
to you soon.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, right on.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Appreciate it, my pleasure,steve.
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