September 28, 2025 • 58 mins
"I believe when I sleep at nighttime I die. Then when I wake up I got a new life." These powerful words from Ai Kihara set the tone for a profound conversation about finding meaning through Japanese wisdom traditions.
Based in Auckland, New Zealand, Ai brings a unique perspective to mental health practice, drawing from her heritage as a descendant of both spiritual practitioners and samurai. She offers refreshing insights into concepts that have become misunderstood in Western culture—particularly Ikigai. Far from being merely a "dream job" formula as popularized in Western books, authentic Ikigai can be something as simple as enjoying ice cream or seeing a friend smile. This flexibility makes it a remarkably effective tool in suicide prevention, where Ai has witnessed how redirecting attention to even the smallest source of meaning—like remembering to feed a pet cat—can create the crucial connection needed to choose life.
The conversation delves into several Japanese therapeutic approaches that challenge Western assumptions. Where Western treatment for depression often emphasizes activity ("do something, work hard, exercise"), Morita therapy takes the opposite approach—rest, do nothing, don't think, until natural motivation returns. Central to this practice is Arugamama—accepting things exactly as they are without judgment. This radical acceptance creates the foundation for genuine healing by acknowledging reality rather than distracting from it.
Equally fascinating is Ai's personalized Naikan practice, which she's maintained for over 30 years. Each night before sleeping, she reflects on what she did for others, how others helped her, and what she learned from her experiences—a simple yet profound practice that maintains her connection to purpose. Her integration of Zen concepts like Ichienso (perfect circle) into art therapy helps clients visualize wholeness while acknowledging life's impermanence.
Whether you're interested in alternative approaches to mental health, seeking deeper meaning in your own life, or simply curious about Japanese philosophy, this conversation offers valuable insights into how ancient wisdom can address very modern problems. Listen now to discover how small moments of meaning might transform your perspective on what makes life worth living.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I believe when I sleep at nighttime I die.
Then when I woke up I got a newlife because I believe
reincarnation.
So before I die I want to doNaikan.
The first question is did I dosomething for people?
(00:22):
And second question is didsomeone help me?
And third question is what Ilearned from that experience?
How can I feel appreciation forlife?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Ai Kihara.
Ai has trained and worked as acounsellor, social worker and
domestic violence advocate since1997.
Based in Auckland, new Zealand,she currently works with the
ACC Accident CompensationCorporation and the EAP Employee
(01:01):
Assistant Program anothercommunity mental health services
through her own business as theDirector of HANA Counseling and
Education.
Welcome to the podcast, aisan.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's my pleasure.
Last time we spoke, you sharedyour family history with me,
which was very interesting, sowould you like to touch on that?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, so my mum's side comes from a very spiritual
family and they are working forsome spiritual stuff, and one of
my father's side's ancestorswas a Samurai, so I come from a
very spiritual family.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You moved to New Zealand in 2008.
What attracted you to NewZealand and what has kept you
there?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Because I used to work at a very similar with
Oranga Tamariki, new Zealand andWomen's Refuge, like mixing the
government agencies, and I wasworking for victims of family
harm and child abuse and humantrafficking cases.
I was really burned out throughmy work and in that time New
(02:17):
Zealand was a very popular placeto study psychology and be a
mental health professional.
So that's why I came to NewZealand, nice to study
psychology and be mental healthprofessionals.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So that's why I came to New Zealand, Nice, and you've
been there now for what?
About eight years?
Or you've lived there now, no,for more than eight years, 18
years.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, 17, 18 years.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So what has kept you there?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Because I love New Zealand and, as a Japanese, we
usually feel appreciation whenwe learned or when we got
received something.
Because I got registration as atherapist in New Zealand and I
learned a lot as a therapist inNew Zealand and I learned a lot,
not only work or study, butalso like Maori history or
(03:09):
colonization lots, lots of thestuff.
Now I really want to contributeto myself, to show my
appreciation through my work.
That's why I keep staying inNew Zealand.
And I want to help othertherapists and students to learn
Ikigai and some other Japanesephilosophy and traditional
(03:33):
therapy as well.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Fantastic.
Well, speaking of Ikigai, Istumbled upon one of your
LinkedIn posts which was onIkigai.
So how do you define ikigai?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Because for Japanese, ikigai is very simple but very
important language and concept.
Many kids, even three or fouryears old kids, learn from their
parents what is ikigai.
Ikigai sometimes can be verysmall or quite big.
Like my uncle father's side, hewas a medical doctor and his
(04:13):
ikigai was helping people as adoctor.
But sometimes my ikigai wasjust to buy very yummy ice cream
or takoyaki or sushi, havesushi or seeing my friends smile
.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I think food is a universal source of ikigai.
Everyone loves food and we allhave our favorite, and in your
LinkedIn post, you mentionedfour conditions for finding
meaning in one's life.
Would you like to share them?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
That is the one article in Japan to talk about
what is Ikigai.
Especially Ikigai's languagewas getting quite popular in
Japan after World War II becausein that time people were very
poor.
They had to rebuild Japan again, so that's it will help people
(05:10):
to feel not only oh, we are poornow and we don't have job, we
don't have any resource.
So ikigai was part of givingpeople some hope not to just
feel very poor, so feel freedomfrom poor or depressed after the
(05:34):
war, world War II, and findingmeaning for the person.
Even their life is very nothappy right now, but sometimes
Ikigai will give people somehope for their future or finding
the meaning of why they arehere now to think about future
(05:57):
again.
And Ikigai sometimes can findwhen we connect with others,
especially Japanese, we are verycollective thinking, we are not
individualism people.
So sometimes when we connectwith people we feel ikigai and
(06:18):
we feel why I'm here.
For example, many and children.
Their attachment is very strong.
Some research was saying thestrongest one in the attachment
theory for Japanese moms andkids is bond and attachment.
And some people feel, even ifI'm just a housewife, I don't
(06:41):
have any qualification, I don'tearn money, but still I feel
ikigai as a mother.
So connecting with kids,connecting with people, will
give them ikigai, meaning whyI'm here.
(07:13):
And last one is sometimes ikigai.
We talk about the job, our joband occupation.
Sometimes we find that ikigaithrough work.
For example, I have one friend.
He's working at the supermarketas a checkout in japan.
He feel ikigai and he feel thatis really great work, even that
it's no professional work forWestern people.
But for him a supermarket isvery important part in our life
(07:41):
so he enjoy and he thinks he'shelping people and that is his
ikigai too.
So sometimes ikigai can getthrough work as well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I must say I do like shopping in Japan, even at
supermarkets, because the staff,they serve you, they treat you
well, they're always focused.
You feel served.
I can understand, perhaps, whyyour friend enjoys their job.
They have a sense of purposeand feel like they're connecting
to their customer.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, I was really surprised too when I come to New
Zealand and how European people, pakeha people are talking
about oh I'm just working at afactory, I'm a labour job.
I'm just working at a factory,I'm a labor job, I do.
And I couldn't understand whythis person was blaming
themselves.
So I asked the person you don'tfeel ikigai?
(08:37):
And he said no, why I feelikigai.
So I found it's a verydifferent culture we have.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I think so.
We do value, success and wealthperhaps more in the West than in
Japan and status, and I guesswe wouldn't see a factory job or
working at a supermarket as ahigh status job, even though it
does serve a purpose and it's arole that's meaningful and that
(09:10):
most people depend on.
So it is a bit strange and Ialso recall reading several
books that presented this ideathat after post-war Japan, japan
was focused on recovery, sothere wasn't this strong sense
of individual ikigai Neverreally has been, perhaps until
recently.
And with affluence and money itseems like people struggle to
(09:36):
find meaning and purpose becausethey don't have something to
focus on.
And then with wealth there arecertain benefits, but with too
much wealth we seem to struggleand I guess we're trying to find
purpose or meaning throughmaterialism or through spending
money, but that can only go sofar and, as you mentioned, we
(10:00):
tend to find it in ourrelationships, working together,
working towards somethingmeaningful.
So I do think it is tied to oursocial world and perhaps we
feel it's stronger when we'reworking together on a meaningful
goal or doing meaningful worktogether.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, like my father had a business and some of my
relatives also had a businesstoo, and especially my father's
side was the samurai family.
So I was told that money isjust money, money is just a
number and money is for everyone.
(10:40):
Money is not something we cansay successful life or not
Because if we want to have moneythemselves, we can work hard or
we can selling house or sellinginsurance or selling jewelry or
cheating people.
There are lots, lots of ways tojust get money if we want to
(11:02):
just get money.
But that is no meaning.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I think it's refreshing because we are
fixated on wealth, money.
People own a lot of property,material things, and I think
they always come with a burden.
So if you own something youhave to use it, you have to take
care of it.
If you don't use it, perhapsyou feel guilty.
If you scratch it, damage it,then you get worried.
(11:29):
So perhaps the less things wehave, the more freedom we have.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yes, and my mom's side.
They had a very big and quiteold house maybe more than 200 or
300 years old house in Kyotoand they were really wealthy.
Maybe they have a very you knowmillion dollars of the money,
but they have never, ever showedoff their rich.
(11:58):
My mother's side is a veryspiritual family but they also
said to me the money is just themoney and we don't need to
spend money.
So they enjoy gardening, theyenjoy helping people and I was
really surprised how theyunderstand.
(12:19):
Both my mum and the father'sside understand money.
It's so different compared withsome other people.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I guess money can only go so far.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I was surprised to see some of my EAB clients
really like Ikigai concept,because few of my clients went
to training and workshop tounderstand Ikigai, to be popular
person or successful person orearn money more.
(12:52):
So I was really shocked to hear.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, I think you're referring to the Western Venn
diagram where it says are youdoing something you love, that
you're good at, that the worldneeds and that you can be paid
for?
And it's presenting Ikigai as asweet spot of this and it's
like your dream job or the idealjob.
But of course, that's a Westerninterpretation.
(13:15):
Perhaps the only true thing isikigai can be something you love
, but doesn't always have to be.
It can be someone you love.
You don't have to be good at it.
I think often ikigai issomething you want to be good at
.
It's like a hobby you want todo and you want to grow and
learn.
It's not really what the worldneeds.
It's what you need to make yourlife meaningful.
(13:37):
That can include service toothers and, rather than money,
it's really intrinsic motivation.
It's something that makes youfeel good, makes you feel alive.
So the west has got it wrong.
But it's so popular in the westbecause we seem to value this
idea of the perfect dream job,whereas I think eastern wisdom
(14:00):
or japanese wisdom they kind ofknow there's really no concept
of the perfect job.
Meaningful work or purposefulwork comes with challenge.
Some people don't, as youmentioned, don't need to be paid
well, and I think it alsotouches on the idea of a
craftsmanship.
Some people dedicate their lifeto their craft and they would
(14:22):
rather spend all their time ontheir craft rather than spending
money from the money they makefrom their craft.
So was that hard for you toadjust from this Japanese
mindset about money and successto maybe what you've experienced
in the West or in New Zealand?
Speaker 1 (14:43):
in the West or in New Zealand.
Yeah, I was really reallystruggling to understand the
Western society when I came toNew Zealand and started working
at New Zealand school.
I couldn't adjust in theirculture and I couldn't
understand why people want toget promotion or why people are
(15:07):
talking about money a lot.
Also, they don't have muchconnection with each other
because in Japan, company likecolleague managers are our
family, so I expected we go outalmost every day or weekend, but
(15:27):
never happened, only a fewoccasions.
So I was really surprised.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I see.
Well, let's talk about how youintegrate the concept of ikigai
into your daily practice at HanaCounseling.
So would you like to talk aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
For example, when I work for some risk case,
including someone want to killthemselves.
So I started using Ikigaiconcept, especially when I was
working at National Helpline.
And when I was working atNational Helpline and when I was
(16:07):
a supervisor, I realized thisikigai concept is a very
powerful tool to helping someonewant to end their life.
Of course, there are lots offramework and theory and
technique or knowledge we canuse over the phone, but
sometimes some of my teammembers needed my support when
(16:30):
they have no idea what they cando after providing all the
support and assessment stuff.
But when I took over the phoneand when I started asking the
callers, I started asking thechorus their ikigai and
(16:51):
sometimes says, wow, it's veryinteresting concept, I have
never heard about ikigai.
And when I explained to themwhat is the ikigai meaning and
some people laughing a lot wow,I have ikigai a lot, I have so
many ikigai and why I haveikigai a lot.
I have so many ikigai and whydo I have to end up my life?
So I started using ikigai along time ago maybe 15 years ago
(17:19):
in my daily practice and I useikigai concept when they lost a
job or when they are inseparation process or court case
or someone come out from thejail in the probation program,
it's always Ikigai is very great, because again, Ikigai can be
very small and Ikigai can bevery big meaning and Ikigai can
(17:42):
be changed every day too.
It's not like a Christian wayof purpose in life.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Is that the power of ikigai?
So you have people stressed andworried about something big, or
they have this existentialcrisis and they feel their
world's falling apart.
And then you say, hey, what'ssomething small that gives you
joy, or what's something smallthat makes you feel good or
that's meaningful, and it reallybrings the focus to one small
thing and it's kind ofunexpected.
(18:17):
Like, oh, I can find meaning orpurpose from this small area.
Could be a pet, could befavorite food, favorite food, it
could be music, and it almostsnaps the mindset, it changes
the mindset.
So is that the reason why itworks?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, like, for example, I had one caller on the
helpline and my team member wasworking very hard for this case
.
But my team member was justtexting me in the group to say,
hey, I have to ask I to helpbecause I did everything that I
can do.
But when I took a call and whenI couldn't find anything
(19:00):
because I did risk assessmenttoo he lost a job, he was in
separation.
Horrible situation.
I understood, wow, of coursethis person really want to end
the life, but I tried to findtiny, tiny, tiny, tiny hope.
Even he cannot see.
(19:21):
That is ikigai, because thereis something in here, because he
is here and he was talking withmy team, that is ikigai too.
And then I found he liked hiscat and he forgot feeding the
cat in the conversation and hesaid, oh my God, my cat has a
(19:43):
happy life.
She has ikigai.
Right, even I don't have ikigainow.
She has ikigai.
That means I have ikigai.
Ikigai sometimes can find fromothers.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
So it's really what you focus on and realizing.
You can find hope or meaning orconnection, even with your pet
all these small things.
It's also interesting that youcan have multiple sources, so
you can have many Ikigai andthey can change over time or
(20:20):
you're suggesting you can havedifferent ones almost every day.
Yeah, yes, yeah, yes, yeah.
That reminds me of Ken Moggyand his idea that ikigai is a
spectrum and you can easilyidentify 100 sources of ikigai
in your life.
So it sounds like your clientsrespond well to this concept.
(20:41):
So when you're talking orcounselling someone, how do you
first introduce the word if theydon't know it?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I usually ask them, if they have never ever heard
the word ikigai, why you're here.
I usually ask them what do youthink?
Why you're here?
Because I'm working as a traumatherapist.
So many people have trauma, butthey're still here Because
(21:11):
ikigai is the meaning of why I'mhere as well.
And some people say, oh, Idon't know, I just survived.
When I ask them, why are yousurviving, why are you here?
Then sometimes they naturallystarted talking about something
like oh, I have a boyfriend.
Even he's not a very niceperson, I love him.
(21:34):
Oh it's like you guys.
And then I started to explain.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, it sounds like you're asking the right
questions, and it's interestingthat we don't ask these
questions in everydayconversation.
We seem to save them for crisisor if we're having a deep and
meaningful conversation withfriends.
So do you think we should thinkabout these questions more
(22:29):
often, like who are we livingfor?
Why are we here?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, like my parents , ask me my ikigai almost every
day.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
An ikigai seems to make it carefree and casual,
Like there's not this stress orburden.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
But sometimes it can be very big too, like when I got
the burnout.
My manager asked me what isyour ikigai at your work?
And it helps me a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, I think this is the beauty and the power of the
word it's subjective, it'sindividual, and it can be
something small, can besomething ambitious and
everything in between, andthere's no rules.
It doesn't have to be like this, it doesn't have to be like
that.
It's tied to your personality,your values comes with your life
(23:22):
experience, what you've learned, what you know, the people and
animals, like your pets, thatyou have in your life.
So it's very holistic but it'svery light.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And plus for myself, it's very spiritual, too
Spiritual yes.
Very spiritual for me.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Without any reliance on religion.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
No, because finding ikigai is connecting with our
genuine self and connecting withfuture, connecting with past,
connecting with people.
I think it's a part of ourspirituality too.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I agree, so that's really fascinating.
I was wondering if ikigai couldtreat depression or trauma.
Yes, and obviously it's a bigpart of your work.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It keeps amazing me.
I keep finding Ikigai in allthese different areas, even in
like robot design or AI, or justthis idea of a holistic
lifestyle or life motivation,work, motivation, and now it
seems it's very beneficial forcounselling or trauma therapy.
(24:38):
Yes, something else that youuse with your work and related
to trauma therapy or counsellingis Morita therapy.
Would you like to touch on DrShoma Morita and his work and
how you use it?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So I met Morita therapy in 1994 when I started
studying sociology at theUniversity of Osaka, and in that
time Morita therapy was notpopular yet.
But still my professorencouraged us to learn about
(25:18):
Morita therapy.
So Morita therapy was made byDr Shoma Morita.
He was a psychiatrist and helearned some Western European
way of mental health and Westernmedication for some people with
especially depression andanxiety, and he found it doesn't
(25:40):
fit with Japanese peoplebecause, for example, western
way of treating people withdepression is do something, work
hard, exercise and keep doingsomething.
And Morita found that doesn'tfit with Japanese because
(26:01):
Japanese people are veryholistic, they want to find out
the reason they are depressedand some people don't care.
When Morita gives some diagnosis, some people say what is the
meaning of this diagnosis, Idon't mind.
Or some people didn't want toget the medication too.
That's why Morita made Morita'stherapy concept Just have a
(26:27):
rest, do nothing, don't think,don't feel, sleep, sleep, rest
Until they finally get themotivation to wake up and to do
something.
That is a very good beginningof the stage of recovery,
because they already got themotivation to get better.
(26:48):
So it's a very interestingtheory.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It is interesting and it's initially a surprise from
a Western mindset, because,you're right, we're told to have
a very proactive approach totreating depression and to be
active, and it's almost like, ifyou want to get rid of
depression, do something, andthat's a contradiction to Morita
therapy of do nothing, rest andlive with the feeling until it
(27:18):
goes away.
So it comes with this idea ofacceptance and there's a
fascinating word for that inMorita therapy.
Would you like to touch on thatword?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Arigamama.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, one of my favorite words, arigamama.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Arigamama is different meaning, but simply
accept what is happening, thesituation, the mental condition
as it is, their mental conditionas it is.
We don't need to blameourselves or any judgment in
(28:01):
there.
That is an Aragamama concept,but it's a very hard one because
that means we need to acceptthe diagnosis as well, or a
condition or life, and Aragamamais talking about see the
reality, not to make negativeassumptions, and see the reality
is also quite hard one too.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, I've read and had conversations on the idea.
It is the understanding of thetrue nature of things and then
accepting it rather than tryingto fight with it or being
resentful.
I mean, japan is a culture ofacceptance.
There are many words foracceptance and I think it would
(28:44):
be quite hard for a Western mindto accept acceptance.
We often don't want to acceptacceptance and we have these
ideas.
I won't accept that.
Well, that's not me.
But arugamama is like anotherikigai word.
It sounds interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It's quite simple as it is, but it seems very
powerful as well because moritawas saying once we accept the
reality means I have depression,I have anxiety, my wife left
because I have depression.
That is very hard, but thatmeans the person already got the
(29:26):
answer how they can recoverwhat they need.
They have to recover to gettheir life back.
That's why morita said try notto just be busy, busy, busy.
Do something.
Exercise, listening to themusic, going for a walk doesn't
work because that means a persondidn't digest and process and
(29:51):
reflect what was happening, whythe person got depression, for
example.
So it's very powerful.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yes, it seems like you're fully accepting and
seeing the problem rather thandistracting yourself from it in
the hope it goes away.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, so it's a very hard one.
Many of my clients feel verydifficult to follow this
Arugamama concept because I useMorita therapy a lot.
But it's not easy because thatmeans they see the reality.
They can't just say using theirnegative, negative thoughts.
(30:27):
And I use Akirameru concept tooNikusanryu no諦める meaning.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Doesn't it mean to quit, give up, yeah, or would
you like to touch on that alittle bit more?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah.
So諦める is give up in English,but諦める come from Japanese
Buddhism concept.
諦 means clarify or identifywhat is happening in reality,
(31:03):
but not emotionally understood.
Just to see the fact.
Just to see what is happeningin reality, not again
emotionally understand like, ohmy God, is my husband left or oh
, he was cheating.
That is not Akira.
(31:23):
Akira means he's not hereanymore or she found someone
else.
He's not here anymore or shefound someone else.
And諦める, second step, is so,once we understood what is
happening in life, in reality,see the fact, then find out,
(31:49):
okay, what I need, what I want,and take action.
That is the Japanese Buddhismway of give up in a very
positive way.
Passimira with Arugamama.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
It seems these words give you clarity and then the
foundation full acceptance, fullunderstanding then allows you
to move forward.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, very hard one.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
But it's also ironically, it seems quite
passive, like you just don't doanything.
You accept and obviouslyreflect, get clarity on what's
real, rather than yeah, shecheated on me, she did all these
horrible things, she's gone now, she's not a part of my life
and so if you focus on that, youcan think I learned to accept
(32:29):
this.
I accept this.
Now I can move forward.
So very powerful, but it soundslike not easy to do.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, so I usually combine with Nikon therapy,
where my client is stuck in themonitor therapy.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Well, nikon's something I've spoken about on
this podcast podcast, but let'stouch on it again and how you
can use it.
Well, nikon is this type ofintrospection often related to
the mind's eye, and there aretwo types.
So there's intensive nikon andthat's something you do with
(33:09):
someone who's practiced in theconcept.
Actually, my wife had to doNikon as part of her employment
when we were engaged and she hadto spend five days at a
Buddhist temple and basicallyshe had to spend the majority of
the time in silence and she'dstart each day, I think, doing a
(33:30):
little cleaning and then havinga meal, and then she was
allocated a section in thetemple and partitioned off, and
then someone would basicallycome and say right, I want you
to think of the earliestmemories of your mother, from
the age from three to five, andthink on these three questions
what did your mother give you,what did you return to your
(33:51):
mother and what troubles did youcause your mother?
And reflect on that for thenext 40 minutes, and after 40
minutes they would return andsay what have you remembered?
And that's it.
Just keep sharing, keep sharing, no guiding, no questions.
And then, after that, all rightnow, reflect on your mother
(34:14):
from the age to five and eightand so on.
And then, yeah, you do that forthe next five days with the
significant people in your life.
So quite intense reflection.
And obviously the third questionis the most important and it's
the one westerners wouldstruggle with the most.
Like me, I didn't cause anytrouble for anyone would
(34:37):
probably be our initial reaction.
So it's a fascinating conceptgiving you clarity, and I think
the idea is just that.
It gives you clarity.
You don't have to do anything.
You can if you want, obviouslyafter the experience.
And then there's 24-hour nightcalm, which is like a journaling
practice, where you just takethe last 24 hours, you can
(34:57):
reflect on one person, or Ithink you can reflect on the
events of the last 24 hours andyou ask yourself those questions
what have I received fromothers, what have I given back
and what troubles have I caused?
And you spend more time on thethird question and I think you
just kind of go for detail andyou bullet point in as much
(35:20):
detail on those three questionsand now you have this honest
reflection of the past 24 hours.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, I created my own Nikon therapy when I studied
Nikon therapy when I was a unistudent because, again, my boss,
family, are very spiritualpeople.
So I changed the question threeokay, and I do night camp every
(35:58):
day when I go to bed since Iwas 18 years old, for over 30
years.
It's very simple.
My, my one, is very simple.
My one is because I believewhen I sleep at nighttime I die.
Then when I woke up I got a newlife because I believe
(36:20):
reincarnation.
So before I die I want to doNaikan.
I mean, the first question isdid I do something for people?
And second question is didsomeone help me?
And third question is what Ilearned from that experience?
(36:43):
How can I feel appreciation forthe life?
Or sometimes, naikan helped meto understand who am I as well.
So I use this very simplequestion to my clients so my
client doesn't need to reviewtheir past life.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I like it.
So that's an alternative andthey sound a bit lighter than
traditional Naikan.
What do you think of the thirdquestion?
Have you shared the thirdquestion?
You know what troubles have Icaused with other people?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
No, For myself, it's because Naikan was studied a
long time ago, when the monk bea professional monk at the
temple, because they had to endand cut all the relationship
with their family or friendsbeing a monk.
So that's why that question isso tense.
(37:46):
But I believe we are justaverage people, we are not
mongrel pastors, why we have tohave such a question, this
question how it helps our life.
That's how I feel.
So that's why I changed thequestion three.
What is this meaning?
(38:08):
What I can feel Appreciation,what is grateful.
What is this meaning?
What I can feel appreciation,what is grateful.
Who am I?
Or sometimes I had one clientshe found oh, actually I really
like the person.
I feel it's very boringcolleague, I hate him.
He's so boring, he's not goodlooking boy.
But one day she said to me Ifound, I like him, I love him,
(38:33):
and I said that's great, that'sNaikan.
And she found Ikigai too.
Because she did Naikan, shehated him and she really wanted
to quit the job.
But she left the job.
But when she did Naikan and shefound, oh, actually I like him,
I didn't notice it.
And she found Ikigai too.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Very powerful.
So those questions you use thefirst one is what have you done
for others.
Second is, how has other peoplehelped you?
And the third is what have youlearned?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
What I learned from the experience, or how I feel
appreciation or grateful orunderstand who am I, because the
purpose of having an icon along time ago is understand
identity.
That is a beginning.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Well, that's interesting and perhaps our
listeners could maybe evencreate their own questions that
resonates with them to do thisinternal reflection.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, because Naikan, the junior monk, did because
they wanted to understand theiridentity, who they are, by
reviewing the past relationships.
So I identify as a key word inthe Naikan.
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, that's refreshing.
So that's a refreshing take onNaikan.
And you actually use otherBuddhistdhist concepts in your
counseling, and one you wrote onlinkedin is ichinichi ichizen.
Would you like to explain thatone?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
yeah.
So ichinichi ichizen mean dosomething nice or good things,
one good thing every day.
And Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen is eventhe very small kids were told
you can do Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen,like helping the chou or just to
(40:46):
smile to friends.
That is Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen too.
That is Ichi-Nichi-Zen too.
That is a very simple meaning,but there are many different
meanings in the Ichi-Nichi-Zen.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
So Ichi-Nichi means one day, and then Ichi-Zen means
one Zen.
So it's almost like each dayone Zen, or each day do a Zen
practice.
But the Zen practice could beanything.
It could be helping someone, itcould be a smile.
It doesn't mean you have to goand meditate for an hour or
something like that.
So, yeah, let's expand on thisconcept.
(41:21):
And it originates fromsomething called Rokudo Mangyo,
is that right?
Yeah, Rokudo Mangyo or RokuharaMitsu as well.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Let's dive in.
Yeah, so the six differentmeanings, or what we can do.
One is Fuse.
Fuse is like donation or givingsomething to others.
We sometimes say Ofuse.
Ofuse means, like a koha, givesome small money to the temple,
(41:57):
that is an ofuse.
When the monk was giving ussome prayer, we give them ofuse
rather than say money.
So the one of Zaiichi Nijijizenis a Fuse.
It's giving something to others, not only the money, just a
small thing is fine, just onepiece of chocolate is fine.
(42:20):
And second one Jikai.
Jikai means just try to commitin our promise or task or goal.
I remember when I was young,teenage time, and I was so tired
and I didn't do homework and myparents said
(42:41):
Ichi-nichi-ichi-zen jikai, jikai, jikai.
And I said okay, okay, yeah, Iwill do my homework, jikai.
And this is Ichi-nichi-ichizizen for you, for your personal
growth.
So you have to do it.
So jikai means just to followwith our promise or task.
(43:02):
And third one is niniku.
Niniku means regulate ouremotion, don't be emotional.
Of course we can be emotional,but not to be controlled by
emotion.
And fourth one is 精進.
精進 means working hard as muchas we can do.
(43:28):
So we Japanese sometimes sayshoujin, shinasai mean do
shoujin, or when someone isstudying or working hard,
sometimes people say oh, you aredoing shoujin, so shoujin is
working hard.
And fifth one is 前作.
(43:51):
前作 means living in the presentmoment, not to be in the past or
future, just like here and now.
And last one is 智慧.
This is the most hardest oneand difficult one, because that
(44:14):
means wisdom and using alldifferent, five different
ethnocentrism concepts like FuseJikai, niniku Hyojin Zenjo.
It integr, integrate everything.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
I understand Very powerful concepts and I think
禅、浄 living the moment or beingpresent is something we're
struggling with.
We have so much distraction now, so these are six of these
Ichin-Nichi Zen people couldpractice, so very helpful.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Especially, Zenjo is very great for my client with
PTSD post-traumatic stressdisorder because trauma doesn't
have timeline or a sense of time.
That's why when we had aflashback or panic attack or
nightmare, we feel as if thattraumatic incident happened
(45:14):
quite recently.
But the Zenjo concept helped myclient a lot and it's very good
for them, Because Ichinichi Zenis good for ourselves, good for
people, good for communityourselves, good for people, good
for community.
So when I was teaching myclients, use that Zenjo for get
(45:35):
self-compassion will help themto recover from the trauma.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Nice, it's amazing these words.
They have almost thisincredible power.
Yes, and Japanese seems to havethese words that articulate a
concept in one word.
It reminds me of the other word, kotodama, the idea that a word
can have a spirit.
(46:01):
So I kind of think these words,like ikigai and arugamama and
zenjo, they have a spirit in theword and when you say them,
it's like you're transferringthe spirit of the word or
sharing the spirit of the word.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, because we believe many Japanese believe
kotodama especially.
I believe kotodama power lawbecause, again, very spiritual
person and come from veryspiritual family.
I was told don't use somethingvery strong word because that
will attack that person butattack to ourself too, because
(46:41):
Koto Dama they are very naiveand pure, they just believe
whatever we are saying.
They try to take action.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
And it's also true.
We tend to become what webelieve and say about ourselves.
So if we have a belief, wecan't do something.
We most likely won't do it.
If we have a belief and we havepositive language, usually
positive things happen.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
And even I didn't say the word.
My parents were so angry when Ihad such emotion Because my
parents said Koto Dama can hearour inside of the voice.
So if I feel something, if Ithink something, koto Dama
already have a power and theyhave a spirit and started
(47:31):
attacking people.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Well, it is fascinating and we could go on
and we will go on with anotherword.
And you sent me a message onLinkedIn after we had connected
and spoken for the first timeand you wrote Nick-san, today I
was working at a company for thewhole day today organizational
trauma work.
Then I realized how Ikigai andself-discipline worked well
(47:58):
together to help people.
Today I found the meaning ofIchien-so, so can you go into
that into more detail?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
So Ichi Enso is different meaning for different
person.
Ichi Enso is perfect circle.
I do Zen art therapy for myclient.
I created Zen art therapy in2018 at the University of
(48:33):
Auckland when I studied at amaster degree, and I created the
Zen art therapy by using eachEnso concept.
So Ichi Enso means, again,perfect circle, but, as same as
the mathematics, there isnothing perfect circle we can
(48:58):
make even now.
But in Zen concept there isperfect circle Means Satori,
nirirvana and very spiritualawareness.
That is ichi enso perfectthinking, perfect world, perfect
(49:20):
concept and integrate,contribute, combine so many
different thinking, feelingeverything together and we can
finally find some meaning inthere.
So on the day when I sent themessage to Nick-san, I was
(49:41):
working at the company and avery horrible incident happened
and I was helping the companystaff to not to get the PTSD and
I found Ichienso what is my job?
What is trauma therapy, howtrauma therapy work, how Ikigai
(50:02):
concept work for my work?
And I found I'm just a onepiece for that company because I
was working with HR and themanagers and so many different
people.
I was just one of the piece atthe team and I have never met
them, but we found very strongconnection and we found very
(50:25):
good way of supporting peopleand we have done a wonderful job
, very good way of supportingpeople and we have done a
wonderful job.
It's a perfect moment, withprofessionalism, compassion,
love.
Everything is perfect, and Ifound Ichienso, and also
Ichienso is talking about notonly perfect.
Ichienso means our life willnot be lasting for forever.
(50:51):
For example, even if we feelvery happy or if we met some
partner, we may divorce, we mayseparate, even if we have a very
successful life, it's notlasting forever.
No one can be CEO for 100 years.
It's not last for forever.
No one can be CEO for 100 years.
When we are born, we will go todie, our life will always have
(51:17):
end, but Ichienzo means eachdifferent beautiful piece, small
piece, is connecting each otherand create the circle each
moment.
So Ichi Enso have differentmeaning.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think our listeners might befamiliar with Enso.
Often you see it in calligraphyand you just see the circle and
it looks very beautifulactually.
And I guess Ichi Enso ismeaning this Is it one circle or
is it one part of the circle?
Speaker 1 (51:51):
One circle.
But again, ichi Enso's onemeaning is satori awareness.
The second meaning Ichi Ensomeans our life will not last
forever.
Happiness will not last forever.
Success will not last forever,but even that moment was
finished.
Not last forever.
Happiness will not last forever.
Success will not last forever,but even that moment was
(52:12):
finished.
Like making bracelet, forexample, like a juzu.
Do you know?
Juzu, niku-san right.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Crab beads yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
We just connect with a different piece and then we
make circle.
That is another Ichiensomeaning.
Another Ichienso meaning iswhen we have circle and if we go
through the circle we will goto the different world, For
(52:48):
example, reality, spiritualworld, present, future or past.
To present, there are lots ofmeaning, like a door to another
world as well, so it tends tohave different meaning.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
That's often depicted in movies sci-fi movies People
tend to go through a circlerather than a square.
So that's interesting.
I've also read.
Sometimes the circle will beclosed, maybe representing
perfection, and sometimes it'sslightly open or not connecting
to suggest imperfection.
(53:26):
But it's very beautiful andsimplistic, but philosophically
very deep and also it seems toreflect the truth about the
world and nature.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, so when I do Zen art therapy and when I
suggest to my client to drawtheir Itchian soul and many of
my clients draw lots ofdifferent circles, or some
people try to draw the perfectcircle and it's fine.
(54:00):
It's each person's Ichi Enso,but Ichi Enso will have a power,
so that artwork will help themto keep having the chainsaw in
their mind.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
Sounds like you're helping a lot of people, not
just your clients, but also yourco-workers, and we talked about
this and I did ask how do youhandle the stress of your job,
and you shared with me it wasn'treally stressful that it's one
of your ikigai, yes.
So I'd love to leave with aquote from your website, and
(54:40):
that is Love is patient, love iskind, it always protects,
always trusts, always perseveres.
I trust the person who takesaction, not words.
Love means forgiving and beingkind, not being strong.
This is my philosophy.
(55:00):
I think you practice this lovein your work and the work that
you do, you help others whenthey are going through extreme
situations.
So thank you for doing that forthe world and for, I guess,
more closely, the people in NewZealand.
Yeah, I think you're a veryrare person and very special.
I'm glad I met you.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
I'm a little bit crazy and quite unusual, because
I love trauma work, I lovesuicide work, I love criminal
work, I love suicide work, Ilove criminal work, but because
I believe this is my Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
I think we need people like you, so thank you
for doing the work and being whoyou are, and I'd like to end
with what are some of yourIkigai outside of work.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Outside of my work.
My Ikigai is my daughter.
I have a daughter and she'severything for me.
Her name is very similar withmy name Hana is flower, meaning
flower.
I gave the name flower for herbecause I love my name.
I means love, but I cannot giveher the same name.
(56:14):
But I had an image when I hadher, like a very tiny, tiny
flower in the mountain, andmaybe no one will not notice the
flower in the mountain, but Ithought the flower will help
people If someone, for example,try to kill themselves, try to
(56:36):
find a tree to hang themselves.
And when they saw the flowersmall one, oh it's pretty, oh
she's very strong.
Maybe I have ikigai, maybe Ican stay here.
Maybe I have Ikigai, maybe Ican stay here.
That's why I gave her the nameFlower to help people.
Even maybe no one will notnotice her.
So that's why my company nameis Hana, counseling Her name,
(57:01):
and that is my Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you for sharingthat, and so that's how people
can reach out to you yourwebsite is hannahcounselingcom,
so thank you very much for yourtime today, aisan, and sharing
all your wisdom, and for thework that you do.
I really enjoyed catching upwith you again thank you so much
.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I feel energy, a destiny, destiny with Nick-san.
You understand the Japaneseconcept, you are very Japanese,
you're very special.
You're very traditionalJapanese and very smart, very
intelligent, very caring.
I can feel you want to helppeople by your podcast.
(57:46):
I think you're doing an amazingjob and you do it in Jesus
every day.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
Thank you, that's very kind.
Japan is very important to me,and obviously the Japanese
people, and this concept haschanged my life, and so I feel
very grateful to have theseconversations.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
Maybe you were similar in the past.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Sounds romantic Sounds romantic, sounds
fascinating.
Maybe I like to think so.
Thank you so much, aisan.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
Thank you so much Okay.
I believe when I sleep at nighttime I die.
Then when I woke up I got a newlife because I believe
reincarnation.
So before I die I want to doNaikan.
The first question is did I dosomething for people?
(00:22):
And second question is didsomeone help me?
And third question is what Ilearned from that experience?
How can I feel appreciation forlife?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Ai Kihara.
Ai has trained and worked as acounsellor, social worker and
domestic violence advocate since1997.
Based in Auckland, new Zealand,she currently works with the
ACC Accident CompensationCorporation and the EAP Employee
(01:01):
Assistant Program anothercommunity mental health services
through her own business as theDirector of HANA Counseling and
Education.
Welcome to the podcast, aisan.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's my pleasure.
Last time we spoke, you sharedyour family history with me,
which was very interesting, sowould you like to touch on that?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yes, so my mum's side comes from a very spiritual
family and they are working forsome spiritual stuff, and one of
my father's side's ancestorswas a Samurai, so I come from a
very spiritual family.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You moved to New Zealand in 2008.
What attracted you to NewZealand and what has kept you
there?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Because I used to work at a very similar with
Oranga Tamariki, new Zealand andWomen's Refuge, like mixing the
government agencies, and I wasworking for victims of family
harm and child abuse and humantrafficking cases.
I was really burned out throughmy work and in that time New
(02:17):
Zealand was a very popular placeto study psychology and be a
mental health professional.
So that's why I came to NewZealand, nice to study
psychology and be mental healthprofessionals.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So that's why I came to New Zealand, Nice, and you've
been there now for what?
About eight years?
Or you've lived there now, no,for more than eight years, 18
years.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, 17, 18 years.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So what has kept you there?
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Because I love New Zealand and, as a Japanese, we
usually feel appreciation whenwe learned or when we got
received something.
Because I got registration as atherapist in New Zealand and I
learned a lot as a therapist inNew Zealand and I learned a lot,
not only work or study, butalso like Maori history or
(03:09):
colonization lots, lots of thestuff.
Now I really want to contributeto myself, to show my
appreciation through my work.
That's why I keep staying inNew Zealand.
And I want to help othertherapists and students to learn
Ikigai and some other Japanesephilosophy and traditional
(03:33):
therapy as well.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Fantastic.
Well, speaking of Ikigai, Istumbled upon one of your
LinkedIn posts which was onIkigai.
So how do you define ikigai?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Because for Japanese, ikigai is very simple but very
important language and concept.
Many kids, even three or fouryears old kids, learn from their
parents what is ikigai.
Ikigai sometimes can be verysmall or quite big.
Like my uncle father's side, hewas a medical doctor and his
(04:13):
ikigai was helping people as adoctor.
But sometimes my ikigai wasjust to buy very yummy ice cream
or takoyaki or sushi, havesushi or seeing my friends smile
.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I think food is a universal source of ikigai.
Everyone loves food and we allhave our favorite, and in your
LinkedIn post, you mentionedfour conditions for finding
meaning in one's life.
Would you like to share them?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
That is the one article in Japan to talk about
what is Ikigai.
Especially Ikigai's languagewas getting quite popular in
Japan after World War II becausein that time people were very
poor.
They had to rebuild Japan again, so that's it will help people
(05:10):
to feel not only oh, we are poornow and we don't have job, we
don't have any resource.
So ikigai was part of givingpeople some hope not to just
feel very poor, so feel freedomfrom poor or depressed after the
(05:34):
war, world War II, and findingmeaning for the person.
Even their life is very nothappy right now, but sometimes
Ikigai will give people somehope for their future or finding
the meaning of why they arehere now to think about future
(05:57):
again.
And Ikigai sometimes can findwhen we connect with others,
especially Japanese, we are verycollective thinking, we are not
individualism people.
So sometimes when we connectwith people we feel ikigai and
(06:18):
we feel why I'm here.
For example, many and children.
Their attachment is very strong.
Some research was saying thestrongest one in the attachment
theory for Japanese moms andkids is bond and attachment.
And some people feel, even ifI'm just a housewife, I don't
(06:41):
have any qualification, I don'tearn money, but still I feel
ikigai as a mother.
So connecting with kids,connecting with people, will
give them ikigai, meaning whyI'm here.
(07:13):
And last one is sometimes ikigai.
We talk about the job, our joband occupation.
Sometimes we find that ikigaithrough work.
For example, I have one friend.
He's working at the supermarketas a checkout in japan.
He feel ikigai and he feel thatis really great work, even that
it's no professional work forWestern people.
But for him a supermarket isvery important part in our life
(07:41):
so he enjoy and he thinks he'shelping people and that is his
ikigai too.
So sometimes ikigai can getthrough work as well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I must say I do like shopping in Japan, even at
supermarkets, because the staff,they serve you, they treat you
well, they're always focused.
You feel served.
I can understand, perhaps, whyyour friend enjoys their job.
They have a sense of purposeand feel like they're connecting
to their customer.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, I was really surprised too when I come to New
Zealand and how European people, pakeha people are talking
about oh I'm just working at afactory, I'm a labour job.
I'm just working at a factory,I'm a labor job, I do.
And I couldn't understand whythis person was blaming
themselves.
So I asked the person you don'tfeel ikigai?
(08:37):
And he said no, why I feelikigai.
So I found it's a verydifferent culture we have.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I think so.
We do value, success and wealthperhaps more in the West than in
Japan and status, and I guesswe wouldn't see a factory job or
working at a supermarket as ahigh status job, even though it
does serve a purpose and it's arole that's meaningful and that
(09:10):
most people depend on.
So it is a bit strange and Ialso recall reading several
books that presented this ideathat after post-war Japan, japan
was focused on recovery, sothere wasn't this strong sense
of individual ikigai Neverreally has been, perhaps until
recently.
And with affluence and money itseems like people struggle to
(09:36):
find meaning and purpose becausethey don't have something to
focus on.
And then with wealth there arecertain benefits, but with too
much wealth we seem to struggleand I guess we're trying to find
purpose or meaning throughmaterialism or through spending
money, but that can only go sofar and, as you mentioned, we
(10:00):
tend to find it in ourrelationships, working together,
working towards somethingmeaningful.
So I do think it is tied to oursocial world and perhaps we
feel it's stronger when we'reworking together on a meaningful
goal or doing meaningful worktogether.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, like my father had a business and some of my
relatives also had a businesstoo, and especially my father's
side was the samurai family.
So I was told that money isjust money, money is just a
number and money is for everyone.
(10:40):
Money is not something we cansay successful life or not
Because if we want to have moneythemselves, we can work hard or
we can selling house or sellinginsurance or selling jewelry or
cheating people.
There are lots, lots of ways tojust get money if we want to
(11:02):
just get money.
But that is no meaning.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I think it's refreshing because we are
fixated on wealth, money.
People own a lot of property,material things, and I think
they always come with a burden.
So if you own something youhave to use it, you have to take
care of it.
If you don't use it, perhapsyou feel guilty.
If you scratch it, damage it,then you get worried.
(11:29):
So perhaps the less things wehave, the more freedom we have.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yes, and my mom's side.
They had a very big and quiteold house maybe more than 200 or
300 years old house in Kyotoand they were really wealthy.
Maybe they have a very you knowmillion dollars of the money,
but they have never, ever showedoff their rich.
(11:58):
My mother's side is a veryspiritual family but they also
said to me the money is just themoney and we don't need to
spend money.
So they enjoy gardening, theyenjoy helping people and I was
really surprised how theyunderstand.
(12:19):
Both my mum and the father'sside understand money.
It's so different compared withsome other people.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I guess money can only go so far.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I was surprised to see some of my EAB clients
really like Ikigai concept,because few of my clients went
to training and workshop tounderstand Ikigai, to be popular
person or successful person orearn money more.
(12:52):
So I was really shocked to hear.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah, I think you're referring to the Western Venn
diagram where it says are youdoing something you love, that
you're good at, that the worldneeds and that you can be paid
for?
And it's presenting Ikigai as asweet spot of this and it's
like your dream job or the idealjob.
But of course, that's a Westerninterpretation.
(13:15):
Perhaps the only true thing isikigai can be something you love
, but doesn't always have to be.
It can be someone you love.
You don't have to be good at it.
I think often ikigai issomething you want to be good at
.
It's like a hobby you want todo and you want to grow and
learn.
It's not really what the worldneeds.
It's what you need to make yourlife meaningful.
(13:37):
That can include service toothers and, rather than money,
it's really intrinsic motivation.
It's something that makes youfeel good, makes you feel alive.
So the west has got it wrong.
But it's so popular in the westbecause we seem to value this
idea of the perfect dream job,whereas I think eastern wisdom
(14:00):
or japanese wisdom they kind ofknow there's really no concept
of the perfect job.
Meaningful work or purposefulwork comes with challenge.
Some people don't, as youmentioned, don't need to be paid
well, and I think it alsotouches on the idea of a
craftsmanship.
Some people dedicate their lifeto their craft and they would
(14:22):
rather spend all their time ontheir craft rather than spending
money from the money they makefrom their craft.
So was that hard for you toadjust from this Japanese
mindset about money and successto maybe what you've experienced
in the West or in New Zealand?
Speaker 1 (14:43):
in the West or in New Zealand.
Yeah, I was really reallystruggling to understand the
Western society when I came toNew Zealand and started working
at New Zealand school.
I couldn't adjust in theirculture and I couldn't
understand why people want toget promotion or why people are
(15:07):
talking about money a lot.
Also, they don't have muchconnection with each other
because in Japan, company likecolleague managers are our
family, so I expected we go outalmost every day or weekend, but
(15:27):
never happened, only a fewoccasions.
So I was really surprised.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I see.
Well, let's talk about how youintegrate the concept of ikigai
into your daily practice at HanaCounseling.
So would you like to talk aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (15:47):
For example, when I work for some risk case,
including someone want to killthemselves.
So I started using Ikigaiconcept, especially when I was
working at National Helpline.
And when I was working atNational Helpline and when I was
(16:07):
a supervisor, I realized thisikigai concept is a very
powerful tool to helping someonewant to end their life.
Of course, there are lots offramework and theory and
technique or knowledge we canuse over the phone, but
sometimes some of my teammembers needed my support when
(16:30):
they have no idea what they cando after providing all the
support and assessment stuff.
But when I took over the phoneand when I started asking the
callers, I started asking thechorus their ikigai and
(16:51):
sometimes says, wow, it's veryinteresting concept, I have
never heard about ikigai.
And when I explained to themwhat is the ikigai meaning and
some people laughing a lot wow,I have ikigai a lot, I have so
many ikigai and why I haveikigai a lot.
I have so many ikigai and whydo I have to end up my life?
So I started using ikigai along time ago maybe 15 years ago
(17:19):
in my daily practice and I useikigai concept when they lost a
job or when they are inseparation process or court case
or someone come out from thejail in the probation program,
it's always Ikigai is very great, because again, Ikigai can be
very small and Ikigai can bevery big meaning and Ikigai can
(17:42):
be changed every day too.
It's not like a Christian wayof purpose in life.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Is that the power of ikigai?
So you have people stressed andworried about something big, or
they have this existentialcrisis and they feel their
world's falling apart.
And then you say, hey, what'ssomething small that gives you
joy, or what's something smallthat makes you feel good or
that's meaningful, and it reallybrings the focus to one small
thing and it's kind ofunexpected.
(18:17):
Like, oh, I can find meaning orpurpose from this small area.
Could be a pet, could befavorite food, favorite food, it
could be music, and it almostsnaps the mindset, it changes
the mindset.
So is that the reason why itworks?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, like, for example, I had one caller on the
helpline and my team member wasworking very hard for this case
.
But my team member was justtexting me in the group to say,
hey, I have to ask I to helpbecause I did everything that I
can do.
But when I took a call and whenI couldn't find anything
(19:00):
because I did risk assessmenttoo he lost a job, he was in
separation.
Horrible situation.
I understood, wow, of coursethis person really want to end
the life, but I tried to findtiny, tiny, tiny, tiny hope.
Even he cannot see.
(19:21):
That is ikigai, because thereis something in here, because he
is here and he was talking withmy team, that is ikigai too.
And then I found he liked hiscat and he forgot feeding the
cat in the conversation and hesaid, oh my God, my cat has a
(19:43):
happy life.
She has ikigai.
Right, even I don't have ikigainow.
She has ikigai.
That means I have ikigai.
Ikigai sometimes can find fromothers.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
So it's really what you focus on and realizing.
You can find hope or meaning orconnection, even with your pet
all these small things.
It's also interesting that youcan have multiple sources, so
you can have many Ikigai andthey can change over time or
(20:20):
you're suggesting you can havedifferent ones almost every day.
Yeah, yes, yeah, yes, yeah.
That reminds me of Ken Moggyand his idea that ikigai is a
spectrum and you can easilyidentify 100 sources of ikigai
in your life.
So it sounds like your clientsrespond well to this concept.
(20:41):
So when you're talking orcounselling someone, how do you
first introduce the word if theydon't know it?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I usually ask them, if they have never ever heard
the word ikigai, why you're here.
I usually ask them what do youthink?
Why you're here?
Because I'm working as a traumatherapist.
So many people have trauma, butthey're still here Because
(21:11):
ikigai is the meaning of why I'mhere as well.
And some people say, oh, Idon't know, I just survived.
When I ask them, why are yousurviving, why are you here?
Then sometimes they naturallystarted talking about something
like oh, I have a boyfriend.
Even he's not a very niceperson, I love him.
(21:34):
Oh it's like you guys.
And then I started to explain.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Well, it sounds like you're asking the right
questions, and it's interestingthat we don't ask these
questions in everydayconversation.
We seem to save them for crisisor if we're having a deep and
meaningful conversation withfriends.
So do you think we should thinkabout these questions more
(22:29):
often, like who are we livingfor?
Why are we here?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, like my parents , ask me my ikigai almost every
day.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
An ikigai seems to make it carefree and casual,
Like there's not this stress orburden.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
But sometimes it can be very big too, like when I got
the burnout.
My manager asked me what isyour ikigai at your work?
And it helps me a lot.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, I think this is the beauty and the power of the
word it's subjective, it'sindividual, and it can be
something small, can besomething ambitious and
everything in between, andthere's no rules.
It doesn't have to be like this, it doesn't have to be like
that.
It's tied to your personality,your values comes with your life
(23:22):
experience, what you've learned, what you know, the people and
animals, like your pets, thatyou have in your life.
So it's very holistic but it'svery light.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And plus for myself, it's very spiritual, too
Spiritual yes.
Very spiritual for me.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Without any reliance on religion.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
No, because finding ikigai is connecting with our
genuine self and connecting withfuture, connecting with past,
connecting with people.
I think it's a part of ourspirituality too.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I agree, so that's really fascinating.
I was wondering if ikigai couldtreat depression or trauma.
Yes, and obviously it's a bigpart of your work.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It keeps amazing me.
I keep finding Ikigai in allthese different areas, even in
like robot design or AI, or justthis idea of a holistic
lifestyle or life motivation,work, motivation, and now it
seems it's very beneficial forcounselling or trauma therapy.
(24:38):
Yes, something else that youuse with your work and related
to trauma therapy or counsellingis Morita therapy.
Would you like to touch on DrShoma Morita and his work and
how you use it?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So I met Morita therapy in 1994 when I started
studying sociology at theUniversity of Osaka, and in that
time Morita therapy was notpopular yet.
But still my professorencouraged us to learn about
(25:18):
Morita therapy.
So Morita therapy was made byDr Shoma Morita.
He was a psychiatrist and helearned some Western European
way of mental health and Westernmedication for some people with
especially depression andanxiety, and he found it doesn't
(25:40):
fit with Japanese peoplebecause, for example, western
way of treating people withdepression is do something, work
hard, exercise and keep doingsomething.
And Morita found that doesn'tfit with Japanese because
(26:01):
Japanese people are veryholistic, they want to find out
the reason they are depressedand some people don't care.
When Morita gives some diagnosis, some people say what is the
meaning of this diagnosis, Idon't mind.
Or some people didn't want toget the medication too.
That's why Morita made Morita'stherapy concept Just have a
(26:27):
rest, do nothing, don't think,don't feel, sleep, sleep, rest
Until they finally get themotivation to wake up and to do
something.
That is a very good beginningof the stage of recovery,
because they already got themotivation to get better.
(26:48):
So it's a very interestingtheory.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
It is interesting and it's initially a surprise from
a Western mindset, because,you're right, we're told to have
a very proactive approach totreating depression and to be
active, and it's almost like, ifyou want to get rid of
depression, do something, andthat's a contradiction to Morita
therapy of do nothing, rest andlive with the feeling until it
(27:18):
goes away.
So it comes with this idea ofacceptance and there's a
fascinating word for that inMorita therapy.
Would you like to touch on thatword?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Arigamama.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, one of my favorite words, arigamama.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Arigamama is different meaning, but simply
accept what is happening, thesituation, the mental condition
as it is, their mental conditionas it is.
We don't need to blameourselves or any judgment in
(28:01):
there.
That is an Aragamama concept,but it's a very hard one because
that means we need to acceptthe diagnosis as well, or a
condition or life, and Aragamamais talking about see the
reality, not to make negativeassumptions, and see the reality
is also quite hard one too.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, I've read and had conversations on the idea.
It is the understanding of thetrue nature of things and then
accepting it rather than tryingto fight with it or being
resentful.
I mean, japan is a culture ofacceptance.
There are many words foracceptance and I think it would
(28:44):
be quite hard for a Western mindto accept acceptance.
We often don't want to acceptacceptance and we have these
ideas.
I won't accept that.
Well, that's not me.
But arugamama is like anotherikigai word.
It sounds interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It's quite simple as it is, but it seems very
powerful as well because moritawas saying once we accept the
reality means I have depression,I have anxiety, my wife left
because I have depression.
That is very hard, but thatmeans the person already got the
(29:26):
answer how they can recoverwhat they need.
They have to recover to gettheir life back.
That's why morita said try notto just be busy, busy, busy.
Do something.
Exercise, listening to themusic, going for a walk doesn't
work because that means a persondidn't digest and process and
(29:51):
reflect what was happening, whythe person got depression, for
example.
So it's very powerful.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yes, it seems like you're fully accepting and
seeing the problem rather thandistracting yourself from it in
the hope it goes away.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, so it's a very hard one.
Many of my clients feel verydifficult to follow this
Arugamama concept because I useMorita therapy a lot.
But it's not easy because thatmeans they see the reality.
They can't just say using theirnegative, negative thoughts.
(30:27):
And I use Akirameru concept tooNikusanryu no諦める meaning.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Doesn't it mean to quit, give up, yeah, or would
you like to touch on that alittle bit more?
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah.
So諦める is give up in English,but諦める come from Japanese
Buddhism concept.
諦 means clarify or identifywhat is happening in reality,
(31:03):
but not emotionally understood.
Just to see the fact.
Just to see what is happeningin reality, not again
emotionally understand like, ohmy God, is my husband left or oh
, he was cheating.
That is not Akira.
(31:23):
Akira means he's not hereanymore or she found someone
else.
He's not here anymore or shefound someone else.
And諦める, second step, is so,once we understood what is
happening in life, in reality,see the fact, then find out,
(31:49):
okay, what I need, what I want,and take action.
That is the Japanese Buddhismway of give up in a very
positive way.
Passimira with Arugamama.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
It seems these words give you clarity and then the
foundation full acceptance, fullunderstanding then allows you
to move forward.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, very hard one.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
But it's also ironically, it seems quite
passive, like you just don't doanything.
You accept and obviouslyreflect, get clarity on what's
real, rather than yeah, shecheated on me, she did all these
horrible things, she's gone now, she's not a part of my life
and so if you focus on that, youcan think I learned to accept
(32:29):
this.
I accept this.
Now I can move forward.
So very powerful, but it soundslike not easy to do.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, so I usually combine with Nikon therapy,
where my client is stuck in themonitor therapy.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Well, nikon's something I've spoken about on
this podcast podcast, but let'stouch on it again and how you
can use it.
Well, nikon is this type ofintrospection often related to
the mind's eye, and there aretwo types.
So there's intensive nikon andthat's something you do with
(33:09):
someone who's practiced in theconcept.
Actually, my wife had to doNikon as part of her employment
when we were engaged and she hadto spend five days at a
Buddhist temple and basicallyshe had to spend the majority of
the time in silence and she'dstart each day, I think, doing a
(33:30):
little cleaning and then havinga meal, and then she was
allocated a section in thetemple and partitioned off, and
then someone would basicallycome and say right, I want you
to think of the earliestmemories of your mother, from
the age from three to five, andthink on these three questions
what did your mother give you,what did you return to your
(33:51):
mother and what troubles did youcause your mother?
And reflect on that for thenext 40 minutes, and after 40
minutes they would return andsay what have you remembered?
And that's it.
Just keep sharing, keep sharing, no guiding, no questions.
And then, after that, all rightnow, reflect on your mother
(34:14):
from the age to five and eightand so on.
And then, yeah, you do that forthe next five days with the
significant people in your life.
So quite intense reflection.
And obviously the third questionis the most important and it's
the one westerners wouldstruggle with the most.
Like me, I didn't cause anytrouble for anyone would
(34:37):
probably be our initial reaction.
So it's a fascinating conceptgiving you clarity, and I think
the idea is just that.
It gives you clarity.
You don't have to do anything.
You can if you want, obviouslyafter the experience.
And then there's 24-hour nightcalm, which is like a journaling
practice, where you just takethe last 24 hours, you can
(34:57):
reflect on one person, or Ithink you can reflect on the
events of the last 24 hours andyou ask yourself those questions
what have I received fromothers, what have I given back
and what troubles have I caused?
And you spend more time on thethird question and I think you
just kind of go for detail andyou bullet point in as much
(35:20):
detail on those three questionsand now you have this honest
reflection of the past 24 hours.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Yeah, I created my own Nikon therapy when I studied
Nikon therapy when I was a unistudent because, again, my boss,
family, are very spiritualpeople.
So I changed the question threeokay, and I do night camp every
(35:58):
day when I go to bed since Iwas 18 years old, for over 30
years.
It's very simple.
My, my one, is very simple.
My one is because I believewhen I sleep at nighttime I die.
Then when I woke up I got a newlife because I believe
(36:20):
reincarnation.
So before I die I want to doNaikan.
I mean, the first question isdid I do something for people?
And second question is didsomeone help me?
And third question is what Ilearned from that experience?
(36:43):
How can I feel appreciation forthe life?
Or sometimes, naikan helped meto understand who am I as well.
So I use this very simplequestion to my clients so my
client doesn't need to reviewtheir past life.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
I like it.
So that's an alternative andthey sound a bit lighter than
traditional Naikan.
What do you think of the thirdquestion?
Have you shared the thirdquestion?
You know what troubles have Icaused with other people?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
No, For myself, it's because Naikan was studied a
long time ago, when the monk bea professional monk at the
temple, because they had to endand cut all the relationship
with their family or friendsbeing a monk.
So that's why that question isso tense.
(37:46):
But I believe we are justaverage people, we are not
mongrel pastors, why we have tohave such a question, this
question how it helps our life.
That's how I feel.
So that's why I changed thequestion three.
What is this meaning?
(38:08):
What I can feel Appreciation,what is grateful.
What is this meaning?
What I can feel appreciation,what is grateful.
Who am I?
Or sometimes I had one clientshe found oh, actually I really
like the person.
I feel it's very boringcolleague, I hate him.
He's so boring, he's not goodlooking boy.
But one day she said to me Ifound, I like him, I love him,
(38:33):
and I said that's great, that'sNaikan.
And she found Ikigai too.
Because she did Naikan, shehated him and she really wanted
to quit the job.
But she left the job.
But when she did Naikan and shefound, oh, actually I like him,
I didn't notice it.
And she found Ikigai too.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Very powerful.
So those questions you use thefirst one is what have you done
for others.
Second is, how has other peoplehelped you?
And the third is what have youlearned?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
What I learned from the experience, or how I feel
appreciation or grateful orunderstand who am I, because the
purpose of having an icon along time ago is understand
identity.
That is a beginning.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Well, that's interesting and perhaps our
listeners could maybe evencreate their own questions that
resonates with them to do thisinternal reflection.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, because Naikan, the junior monk, did because
they wanted to understand theiridentity, who they are, by
reviewing the past relationships.
So I identify as a key word inthe Naikan.
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Well, that's refreshing.
So that's a refreshing take onNaikan.
And you actually use otherBuddhistdhist concepts in your
counseling, and one you wrote onlinkedin is ichinichi ichizen.
Would you like to explain thatone?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
yeah.
So ichinichi ichizen mean dosomething nice or good things,
one good thing every day.
And Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen is eventhe very small kids were told
you can do Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen,like helping the chou or just to
(40:46):
smile to friends.
That is Ichi Nichi Ichi Zen too.
That is Ichi-Nichi-Zen too.
That is a very simple meaning,but there are many different
meanings in the Ichi-Nichi-Zen.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
So Ichi-Nichi means one day, and then Ichi-Zen means
one Zen.
So it's almost like each dayone Zen, or each day do a Zen
practice.
But the Zen practice could beanything.
It could be helping someone, itcould be a smile.
It doesn't mean you have to goand meditate for an hour or
something like that.
So, yeah, let's expand on thisconcept.
(41:21):
And it originates fromsomething called Rokudo Mangyo,
is that right?
Yeah, Rokudo Mangyo or RokuharaMitsu as well.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Let's dive in.
Yeah, so the six differentmeanings, or what we can do.
One is Fuse.
Fuse is like donation or givingsomething to others.
We sometimes say Ofuse.
Ofuse means, like a koha, givesome small money to the temple,
(41:57):
that is an ofuse.
When the monk was giving ussome prayer, we give them ofuse
rather than say money.
So the one of Zaiichi Nijijizenis a Fuse.
It's giving something to others, not only the money, just a
small thing is fine, just onepiece of chocolate is fine.
(42:20):
And second one Jikai.
Jikai means just try to commitin our promise or task or goal.
I remember when I was young,teenage time, and I was so tired
and I didn't do homework and myparents said
(42:41):
Ichi-nichi-ichi-zen jikai, jikai, jikai.
And I said okay, okay, yeah, Iwill do my homework, jikai.
And this is Ichi-nichi-ichizizen for you, for your personal
growth.
So you have to do it.
So jikai means just to followwith our promise or task.
(43:02):
And third one is niniku.
Niniku means regulate ouremotion, don't be emotional.
Of course we can be emotional,but not to be controlled by
emotion.
And fourth one is 精進.
精進 means working hard as muchas we can do.
(43:28):
So we Japanese sometimes sayshoujin, shinasai mean do
shoujin, or when someone isstudying or working hard,
sometimes people say oh, you aredoing shoujin, so shoujin is
working hard.
And fifth one is 前作.
(43:51):
前作 means living in the presentmoment, not to be in the past or
future, just like here and now.
And last one is 智慧.
This is the most hardest oneand difficult one, because that
(44:14):
means wisdom and using alldifferent, five different
ethnocentrism concepts like FuseJikai, niniku Hyojin Zenjo.
It integr, integrate everything.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
I understand Very powerful concepts and I think
禅、浄 living the moment or beingpresent is something we're
struggling with.
We have so much distraction now, so these are six of these
Ichin-Nichi Zen people couldpractice, so very helpful.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Especially, Zenjo is very great for my client with
PTSD post-traumatic stressdisorder because trauma doesn't
have timeline or a sense of time.
That's why when we had aflashback or panic attack or
nightmare, we feel as if thattraumatic incident happened
(45:14):
quite recently.
But the Zenjo concept helped myclient a lot and it's very good
for them, Because Ichinichi Zenis good for ourselves, good for
people, good for communityourselves, good for people, good
for community.
So when I was teaching myclients, use that Zenjo for get
(45:35):
self-compassion will help themto recover from the trauma.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Nice, it's amazing these words.
They have almost thisincredible power.
Yes, and Japanese seems to havethese words that articulate a
concept in one word.
It reminds me of the other word, kotodama, the idea that a word
can have a spirit.
(46:01):
So I kind of think these words,like ikigai and arugamama and
zenjo, they have a spirit in theword and when you say them,
it's like you're transferringthe spirit of the word or
sharing the spirit of the word.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yeah, because we believe many Japanese believe
kotodama especially.
I believe kotodama power lawbecause, again, very spiritual
person and come from veryspiritual family.
I was told don't use somethingvery strong word because that
will attack that person butattack to ourself too, because
(46:41):
Koto Dama they are very naiveand pure, they just believe
whatever we are saying.
They try to take action.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
And it's also true.
We tend to become what webelieve and say about ourselves.
So if we have a belief, wecan't do something.
We most likely won't do it.
If we have a belief and we havepositive language, usually
positive things happen.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
And even I didn't say the word.
My parents were so angry when Ihad such emotion Because my
parents said Koto Dama can hearour inside of the voice.
So if I feel something, if Ithink something, koto Dama
already have a power and theyhave a spirit and started
(47:31):
attacking people.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Well, it is fascinating and we could go on
and we will go on with anotherword.
And you sent me a message onLinkedIn after we had connected
and spoken for the first timeand you wrote Nick-san, today I
was working at a company for thewhole day today organizational
trauma work.
Then I realized how Ikigai andself-discipline worked well
(47:58):
together to help people.
Today I found the meaning ofIchien-so, so can you go into
that into more detail?
Speaker 1 (48:08):
So Ichi Enso is different meaning for different
person.
Ichi Enso is perfect circle.
I do Zen art therapy for myclient.
I created Zen art therapy in2018 at the University of
(48:33):
Auckland when I studied at amaster degree, and I created the
Zen art therapy by using eachEnso concept.
So Ichi Enso means, again,perfect circle, but, as same as
the mathematics, there isnothing perfect circle we can
(48:58):
make even now.
But in Zen concept there isperfect circle Means Satori,
nirirvana and very spiritualawareness.
That is ichi enso perfectthinking, perfect world, perfect
(49:20):
concept and integrate,contribute, combine so many
different thinking, feelingeverything together and we can
finally find some meaning inthere.
So on the day when I sent themessage to Nick-san, I was
(49:41):
working at the company and avery horrible incident happened
and I was helping the companystaff to not to get the PTSD and
I found Ichienso what is my job?
What is trauma therapy, howtrauma therapy work, how Ikigai
(50:02):
concept work for my work?
And I found I'm just a onepiece for that company because I
was working with HR and themanagers and so many different
people.
I was just one of the piece atthe team and I have never met
them, but we found very strongconnection and we found very
(50:25):
good way of supporting peopleand we have done a wonderful job
, very good way of supportingpeople and we have done a
wonderful job.
It's a perfect moment, withprofessionalism, compassion,
love.
Everything is perfect, and Ifound Ichienso, and also
Ichienso is talking about notonly perfect.
Ichienso means our life willnot be lasting for forever.
(50:51):
For example, even if we feelvery happy or if we met some
partner, we may divorce, we mayseparate, even if we have a very
successful life, it's notlasting forever.
No one can be CEO for 100 years.
It's not last for forever.
No one can be CEO for 100 years.
When we are born, we will go todie, our life will always have
(51:17):
end, but Ichienzo means eachdifferent beautiful piece, small
piece, is connecting each otherand create the circle each
moment.
So Ichi Enso have differentmeaning.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think our listeners might befamiliar with Enso.
Often you see it in calligraphyand you just see the circle and
it looks very beautifulactually.
And I guess Ichi Enso ismeaning this Is it one circle or
is it one part of the circle?
Speaker 1 (51:51):
One circle.
But again, ichi Enso's onemeaning is satori awareness.
The second meaning Ichi Ensomeans our life will not last
forever.
Happiness will not last forever.
Success will not last forever,but even that moment was
finished.
Not last forever.
Happiness will not last forever.
Success will not last forever,but even that moment was
(52:12):
finished.
Like making bracelet, forexample, like a juzu.
Do you know?
Juzu, niku-san right.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Crab beads yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
We just connect with a different piece and then we
make circle.
That is another Ichiensomeaning.
Another Ichienso meaning iswhen we have circle and if we go
through the circle we will goto the different world, For
(52:48):
example, reality, spiritualworld, present, future or past.
To present, there are lots ofmeaning, like a door to another
world as well, so it tends tohave different meaning.
Speaker 2 (53:05):
That's often depicted in movies sci-fi movies People
tend to go through a circlerather than a square.
So that's interesting.
I've also read.
Sometimes the circle will beclosed, maybe representing
perfection, and sometimes it'sslightly open or not connecting
to suggest imperfection.
(53:26):
But it's very beautiful andsimplistic, but philosophically
very deep and also it seems toreflect the truth about the
world and nature.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
Yeah, so when I do Zen art therapy and when I
suggest to my client to drawtheir Itchian soul and many of
my clients draw lots ofdifferent circles, or some
people try to draw the perfectcircle and it's fine.
(54:00):
It's each person's Ichi Enso,but Ichi Enso will have a power,
so that artwork will help themto keep having the chainsaw in
their mind.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
Sounds like you're helping a lot of people, not
just your clients, but also yourco-workers, and we talked about
this and I did ask how do youhandle the stress of your job,
and you shared with me it wasn'treally stressful that it's one
of your ikigai, yes.
So I'd love to leave with aquote from your website, and
(54:40):
that is Love is patient, love iskind, it always protects,
always trusts, always perseveres.
I trust the person who takesaction, not words.
Love means forgiving and beingkind, not being strong.
This is my philosophy.
(55:00):
I think you practice this lovein your work and the work that
you do, you help others whenthey are going through extreme
situations.
So thank you for doing that forthe world and for, I guess,
more closely, the people in NewZealand.
Yeah, I think you're a veryrare person and very special.
I'm glad I met you.
Speaker 1 (55:22):
I'm a little bit crazy and quite unusual, because
I love trauma work, I lovesuicide work, I love criminal
work, I love suicide work, Ilove criminal work, but because
I believe this is my Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
I think we need people like you, so thank you
for doing the work and being whoyou are, and I'd like to end
with what are some of yourIkigai outside of work.
Speaker 1 (55:52):
Outside of my work.
My Ikigai is my daughter.
I have a daughter and she'severything for me.
Her name is very similar withmy name Hana is flower, meaning
flower.
I gave the name flower for herbecause I love my name.
I means love, but I cannot giveher the same name.
(56:14):
But I had an image when I hadher, like a very tiny, tiny
flower in the mountain, andmaybe no one will not notice the
flower in the mountain, but Ithought the flower will help
people If someone, for example,try to kill themselves, try to
(56:36):
find a tree to hang themselves.
And when they saw the flowersmall one, oh it's pretty, oh
she's very strong.
Maybe I have ikigai, maybe Ican stay here.
Maybe I have Ikigai, maybe Ican stay here.
That's why I gave her the nameFlower to help people.
Even maybe no one will notnotice her.
So that's why my company nameis Hana, counseling Her name,
(57:01):
and that is my Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you for sharingthat, and so that's how people
can reach out to you yourwebsite is hannahcounselingcom,
so thank you very much for yourtime today, aisan, and sharing
all your wisdom, and for thework that you do.
I really enjoyed catching upwith you again thank you so much
.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
I feel energy, a destiny, destiny with Nick-san.
You understand the Japaneseconcept, you are very Japanese,
you're very special.
You're very traditionalJapanese and very smart, very
intelligent, very caring.
I can feel you want to helppeople by your podcast.
(57:46):
I think you're doing an amazingjob and you do it in Jesus
every day.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
Thank you, that's very kind.
Japan is very important to me,and obviously the Japanese
people, and this concept haschanged my life, and so I feel
very grateful to have theseconversations.
Speaker 1 (58:07):
Maybe you were similar in the past.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Sounds romantic Sounds romantic, sounds
fascinating.
Maybe I like to think so.
Thank you so much, aisan.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
Thank you so much Okay.
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