August 1, 2024 • 55 mins
How does one express the self with ink, brush and paper?
Many people view calligraphy simply as an art form that showcases beautiful handwriting. However, it is more than just elegant writing; it is a profound way to convey meaningful messages.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Naoko Mikami about how calligraphy goes beyond aesthetics to express deep thoughts and emotions.
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Naoko (00:00):
When I started to do calligraphy again, I focused a
lot on design.
I even mixed painting for awhile.
Drawing painting, I alsofocused on some technical
aspects of using the brush, butthen at some point I realized
(00:23):
that maybe that was not how itwas supposed to be done.
When you think aboutcalligraphy in the past, like
Edo period or before, it is verydifferent from what we see
nowadays, I think.
And now many calligraphers tendto go more and more abstract,
(00:49):
focusing on lines and flow, andto me it seems that we are
losing the meaning ofcalligraphy.
Nick (01:15):
My guest today on the Ikigai Podcast is Naoko Mikami,
a leading calligrapher andtranslator in the field of
Japanese martial arts andtraditional culture.
Naoko creates calligraphy fordojos, businesses, and
meditation centers in Japan andabroad.
She frequently collaborateswith martial arts federations
(01:37):
and prominent publicationsfocused on Budo, Zen, and
wellness.
Her work can be found in publicand private spaces throughout
the world.
A former director of ArtCurator Japan, an initiative
that aimed at promoting Japaneseartists internationally, Naoko
nowadays works primarily on herown calligraphy career.
Naoko, welcome to the podcast.
(01:59):
Thank you for joining me today.
Naoko (02:02):
Thank you for having me, Nick.
I saw your website and thenumber of interviews you've made
.
That was pretty impressive.
Thank you for your passion forthis Japanese concept, ikigai.
NICK:Yes, it it's my ikigaiactually exploring, researching
ikigai, and I have these, youknow, inspiring and wonderful
(02:23):
conversations with japanese andnon-japanese about ikigai.
And I have these, you know,inspiring and wonderful
conversations with Japanese andnon-Japanese about Ikigai and
Japanese culture in general.
So it's a real honor always.
So thank you for being here.
And yeah, as you know, Istumbled upon your amazing
calligraphy via LinkedIn, but Iwas also really impressed by
your explanations, theseinsightful explanations and
(02:46):
stories related to the proverbsand words that you brush, and
I've already learned so muchfrom you.
So would you like to share yourjourney to becoming a
professional calligrapher?
Yes, I don't remember exactly.
I think I was around seven whenI started calligraphy.
(03:07):
My cousin started to go to asmall private calligraphy school
in town, so I wanted to jointhem.
Actually, at the same time theystarted learning classical
ballet too and I really, reallywanted to do it rather than
calligraphy, but my parentsdidn't say okay to ballet I
(03:31):
suspect that they couldn'tafford ballet Anyway.
So I just went calligraphy withmy cousins and I think I wasn't
a passionate student.
First of all, I didn't like theschool because it smelled bad.
(03:52):
It smelled heavily ink, verybad.
Now that I think about it, Irealize it was the smell of
rotting ink.
Ink is made with soot andanimal glue.
It can mold or rot.
I see, yeah, the expensive inkuse high-quality instances and
(04:31):
typically smell nice, but thishigh temperature and humidity
can ruin them.
So when you handle the Japaneseink, better to be careful.
Okay, I didn't know all this.
Wow, anyway, I remember therotting ink smell and I didn't
(04:51):
like it.
And I also remember that therewere no hot water in the school
so we needed to clean the brushwith cold water and my hands got
damaged in winter, so cold.
Also, I remember the teacherwas not very adapted young kids.
(05:15):
The class was not veryinteresting to me.
Sounds like a bad start.
Yeah Sounds like a bad start.
Yeah, At the time also, weneeded to do calligraphy at a
subject in elementary school andI was scolded by a teacher in
(05:37):
front of everyone yourcalligraphy is not.
That is not good at all.
Really, that hurt me a lot.
Nick (05:48):
Oh, wow, okay.
Naoko (05:50):
So, naturally, very quickly I hated calligraphy and
I quit.
My calligraphy career was overafter a very short period, I see
, but fortunately because myparents were busy all the time.
I was raised by my grandmother.
(06:12):
She was a poet and calligrapher.
So she taught me calligraphyNice yeah.
Taught me calligraphy Nice yeah.
And she was strict, but atleast her ink smelled good Good.
She was patient very much, so Istudied with her for a long
(06:40):
time Good memory.
Nick (06:44):
She was obviously perhaps a more generous and kind teacher
yes, I think so, she.
Naoko (06:51):
She motivated to me better than others.
So, and then I became ateenager.
I started to be mostlyinterested in Western culture,
like movies, music, literature,fashion.
So I kind of put asidecalligraphy again.
(07:15):
Then my first job I was a staffat International Budo
University, which is a veryfamous place in Japan for
martial arts.
The thing is that I couldn't docalligraphy anymore because I
was busy with work, but on theother hand, I met many famous
(07:37):
Japanese historians and alsomartial arts experts.
Sometimes I helped them withtheir projects, and so many
years I was immersed by this oldsamurai culture, history and
Japanese traditions.
Wow, yes, that was fun.
(08:01):
Although I didn't docalligraphy anymore, I had the
opportunity to learn manyphilosophical aspects about
japan, but working in japanesecompany, you know it's very hard
(08:22):
, yes, yeah, Relationshipinefficiency, conservativeness,
too much stress, Too much stress.
So I decided to quit and luckilyI could quit and went to Taiwan
.
New World, yay, Wow.
(08:44):
Taiwan new world, yay, wow.
At first, in Taiwan, I was abit lost.
After serving company for manyyears, this total freedom
confused me Really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't know what to do, but Iwas surrounded by people in art
(09:06):
world and they pushed me to docalligraphy again.
I hesitated for a while, butanyway I decided to do.
Nick (09:16):
Nice.
Naoko (09:18):
Then I started a different project related to art
and calligraphy Art CuratorJapan.
I see, and I did my first majorexhibition in France in 2018, I
think, and I really didn't knowwhat to expect but, to my
(09:41):
surprise, I sold everything.
Oh, really, wow, yes, that'sgreat.
That's where I decided to dothis full time.
Nick (09:52):
Yeah that would have been a very affirming, life-affirming
and wonderful experience tosell all your work Like that's.
The hardest thing of an artistis to sell their work.
Naoko (10:03):
Yes, exactly, the hardest thing of an artist is to sell
their work.
Yes, exactly, I didn't expectmuch, but you know.
Nick (10:12):
Well, that's a fascinating history.
So maybe you were born to docalligraphy.
Naoko (10:18):
I don't know, but I hope so.
Nick (10:22):
And actually behind you, I'm assuming, is that one of
your works?
Naoko (10:26):
ah, yes, uh, can I talk about this?
Yeah, please do yeah, okay,this is a piece consisting of
four scrolls called withheaven's help.
I wanted to put all the scrollshere, but too bad, my wall is
not big enough.
Oh too bad.
(10:49):
Anyway, this characterrepresents heaven.
This whole piece in Japanese.
Basically, it means puttingeverything on the line in one
big gamble.
Nick (11:07):
Oh wow, Risky goal yeah.
Naoko (11:12):
In life there is always a moment when you face big risk,
this kenkom iteki moment.
But this moment doesn't justappear out of nowhere.
You have to work hard andprepare to know when to take
that leap, when you are kind ofall you, all you can and are
(11:37):
ready to take the gamble.
That's when you get help fromabove.
Nick (11:44):
I see, yeah, I think that's true.
Naoko (11:49):
Yeah, yeah yeah, and each character in the piece shows
its own strength and togetherthey create a powerful pull.
It's all about personal growth,working with your environment
and getting ready for the bigchallenges in life.
Nick (12:08):
Wow.
Naoko (12:08):
I love this word and I love this piece.
Nick (12:11):
Nice, thank you.
Is this Yoji Jukugo?
Is this a four-characterprogram?
Yes, yes, yes, all right, we'llhave to include it in the show
notes because it sounds veryprofound and philosophical.
Naoko (12:25):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Nick (12:30):
So you have a very looks like a very freeing cursive
style of calligraphy, so perhapswe could talk about that.
How long did it take for you tofind your style Actually?
Naoko (12:44):
it took some time to come here.
So when I started to docalligraphy again, I focused a
lot on design.
I even mixed painting for awhile drawing, painting, drawing
painting.
I also focused on sometechnical aspects of using the
(13:06):
brush, but then at some point Irealized that maybe that was not
how it was supposed to be done.
When you think aboutcalligraphy in the past, like
Edo period or before, it is verydifferent from what we see
(13:29):
nowadays, I think.
And now many calligraphers tendto go more and more abstract,
focusing on lines and flow, andto me it seems that we are
losing the meaning ofcalligraphy.
In the past, calligraphy wassimpler the message was the most
(13:57):
important thing, not thepicture effect, not the
aesthetics.
We can even debate calligraphywas even considered as art or
not.
I decided to go back to thatspirit.
Nick (14:15):
Wonderful.
Naoko (14:17):
Sure, you can appreciate calligraphy as an art form,
especially if you don't readkanji.
That's the only way you canappreciate it.
I think it's a beautiful thing,but if you can read kanji, the
meaning should be the mostimportant thing.
A long time ago, samurai,warlords, nobility and monks
(14:43):
they all had calligraphy wherethey lived, where they worked.
Why?
Because the message on thecalligraphy was important.
Because the message on thecalligraphy was important.
The message was supposed tomake them reflect on what they
did, on their life, and themessage could make their
(15:03):
motivation higher.
The message is all about themessage.
I'm trying to achieve the samething with what I do now.
The message should empower theperson who owns the calligraphy.
So, yes, it took me some timeto get here.
Nick (15:25):
Well, it's interesting because you've had your own
personal journey from havingthese sort of bad experiences
when you're younger and notreally enjoying calligraphy, and
then rediscovering it.
You're also going back to theroots of calligraphy, where it's
not really an art.
It's this expression ofsomething meaningful, but it's a
(15:49):
very beautiful way to convey amessage Exactly.
And even if you cannot readcalligraphy, there is something
about the balance of white spaceand these, the flow of the
strokes that's very appealing.
And then, if you can read ityeah, like my one, kokoroz it is
(16:12):
this reminder for me to pursuewhat I care about and keep
learning, keep growing andmaintain my motivation and have
my ambition.
So I guess I relate Kokorozashito my business, so I'm always
looking to learn from people andhave guests and now.
I'm going to be doing retreats,so this is a lovely reminder to,
(16:35):
oh yeah, keep believing inmyself and keep believing in
what I do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's so attractive, the kanjiyou and other artists brush or
draw.
It's very.
I feel like I can sensesomething because it is at the
same time abstract when youcannot read it, but you can feel
(16:59):
this idea of flow, like theflow of your brush is captured
in the ink.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, youkind of feel it.
So it's beautiful in so manyways the simplicity but
conveying meaning behind theseproverbs or expressions.
Naoko (17:16):
I love calligraphy because they have a lot of white
blank space.
That's beautiful it isbeautiful yeah.
I love it too.
Nick (17:27):
Let's talk about you as the artist.
You have an artist name, whichis Fumi, so what does that name
mean?
Naoko (17:37):
Yes, thank you for asking this question.
I'm happy to answer.
Nick (17:45):
I'm excited to hear the answer.
Naoko (17:49):
Fumi means not beautiful.
So many people ask me why Ichose this name, especially in
Taiwan, because we use mostlysame kanji, so they understand
the meaning and why I chose thisstrange name, they wondered.
Well, in Japanese calligraphyworld people tend to choose very
(18:17):
stylish, elegant, beautiful,sometimes even snobbish
calligrapher name.
I see, yeah, I always find itkind of stupid, so sorry my
language, so I decided to gopunk instead.
Nick (18:45):
That's not uncommon for artists to go against.
I guess the main, you know,conservative ideals and express
themselves with.
I'm going to go against thisand I have a different
perspective or a different idea.
Naoko (19:01):
Yes, yeah, that's why I chose Hume, and also I tend to
suffer from very strong impostersyndrome, so choosing Hume not
beautiful as a calligrapher namewas very appealing to my
imposter syndrome somehow wow,well, that's, that's an
(19:23):
interesting idea the impostersyndrome of a professional
calligrapher, because it's it'ssubjective too and it's um
artistic expression.
Nick (19:34):
yeah, that's interesting.
I didn't imagine you'd haveimposter syndrome, but I guess
many people do, artists do.
I do?
I'm an Australian talking aboutit, you guys.
So I have a lot of impostersyndrome and I do worry about
this.
So maybe we all have impostersyndrome oh yes, maybe life is
(19:58):
tough it is sometimes, but itsounds like you really enjoy
what you're doing now and you,you brush custom calligraphy,
blending ancient wisdom withmodern aesthetics to create
motivational artworks forleaders and for workspaces
around the world.
So that must be reallyinspiring that you're not just
(20:22):
doing this in Japan, you'redoing it in different countries.
So when you're doing thesecustom pieces, when you're
commissioned to do that, what'sthe process?
What is your artwork designedto do?
When it's meant to, I guess,fill a space or decorate a space
?
Naoko (20:41):
Okay, so the process is like this, the practical one I
talk to my clients and what kindof motivation they want, and I
(21:01):
brush several types ofcalligraphy and the client
choose one of them.
So basically, as I said before,the most important is the
message.
So I value message which theywant to talk about the most I
see the message.
Nick (21:22):
As you said earlier, the message is more important.
Yes, awesome, and then, oncethe message is chosen, I guess
you then go and brush the piece.
Yes, so I always have this ideathat if an artist is doing
something, like a kakejiku, likesometimes, you have one chance
(21:46):
to do it.
Naoko (21:47):
Yes, yes, sometimes, but tailored.
I am mostly working on tailoredkakejuku, so I brush a big
paper and so the client choosewhat they like like yeah, then I
(22:08):
send it to the kakejuku makerand the craftsman do the okay.
Nick (22:16):
So you, I see, okay, that's good.
So yeah, kakejuku means, Iguess, hanging scroll, yes yes
yeah, um, let's touch on, Iguess, budo samurai, because
that is a strong theme in yourwork.
So if we go back to samuraisamurai era, what was
(22:37):
calligraphy for in, I guess forsamurai in in their days?
Uh, you touched on it earlier.
This, this reminder of how tolive your life, or maybe a a
virtue to uphold things likethat?
Yeah, exactly.
Naoko (22:56):
So sometimes they do Kali Rumi by their own, but
sometimes some samurai presentshis work to other samurai and it
(23:16):
was not that special at thetime, I think, but the message
was important.
But it doesn't matter.
It matters, but it doesn't thatmatter if the work is beautiful
or not.
Nick (23:34):
I think it was the message , always the message.
This is really interesting,yeah, but I think that makes
sense.
You take this time to have anartist write a message.
Of course the message wouldhave a lot of thought and
feeling behind it.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of.
I guess, as Westerners we seesamurais, these warriors you
(23:57):
know, fighting and killingpeople, but this other side to
them, where they're drinking teaand discussing calligraphy and
giving gifts of calligraphies,yes, I guess it's that, the
softness of the warrior, or theinner heart of the warrior, that
we don't often talk about, ofthe warrior, or the inner heart
of the warrior that we don'toften talk about.
Naoko (24:19):
There is a word called bunbu ryodo, so it means bun,
the study, and bu, the martialarts Always you need to have
both ways in your side.
Nick (24:35):
Good way to live by and do would be the path and do would
be to.
I don't know.
To yes, oh, okay, cool, wow,there we go.
So that's what I love too.
I love the learnings fromstudying, you know, studying
(24:56):
calligraphy, and what I'venoticed in general and in your
work on LinkedIn, you oftenmention or you often have
calligraphy pieces that mentionthe word shin or kokoro.
Yes, and you know, I guess inthe West we might understand
kokoro's heart, but it's, it'smore than that.
(25:18):
I have this idea.
It conveys mind, heart andspirit almost as one entity.
So it took me a while tounderstand kokoro.
But, yeah, how would you defineshin or kokoro?
Yeah, okay, um, Kokoro.
Naoko (25:32):
Okay, the other day during our Zoom call, you said
like that.
You said it's difficult totranslate kokoro into English
with just one word yes, that'svery true, very true.
Kokoro is a difficult conceptto explain, like many Japanese
(25:53):
things which are kind of vague.
So Japanese people intuitivelyunderstand it, but it's
generally difficult for us toexplain it for foreigners.
Basically, as you said, it canmean at the same time heart,
mind and spirit.
(26:14):
But even in english for me it'sdifficult to make difference
between mind and spirit.
So I think it's fundamentally adifficult concept to to explain
.
Kokoro is about emotions,intellect and spiritual.
Nick (26:37):
Yeah, that's really interesting because we often
have this expression you know,think with your mind, feel with
your heart, and we're almostseparating the two.
But kokoro kind of conveys theidea well, you cannot live or
function without both workingtogether.
Yeah, and then there's thespirit, which we probably don't.
We're so busy in the world andthe modern world we don't
(27:01):
connect to spirit that oftenSome people might not even
believe there is the spirit.
They might only think it's oh,it's just your mind and the
heart just pumps blood andthat's all.
So I guess there's a lot of.
There's far more reflectionbehind these concepts of
Japanese words, I think,compared to you know, modern
(27:22):
Western thinking and a lot ofhistory.
So that's why it's probablyhard for Westerners to
understand, and typically in theWest we're kind of looking for
a quick answer, like just tellme what it is, you know, don't
worry about the details which isnot really the best way to
approach learning, I think,words in any language.
(27:46):
The deeper you go, obviously,the better you can understand
and communicate.
So it's this journey oflearning.
So it's always a journey oflearning for me, for Japanese.
Yeah, why do you feature kokoroor shin to readings of the
kanji?
So much in your work.
Naoko (28:08):
Ah yes, in calligraphy kokoro is a very unique
character.
In calligraphy, kokoro is avery unique character.
It has only four strokes whichare not connected to each other,
so it's hard to brush becauseit has a kind of floating
sensation.
It can be very delicate or verystrong, like the mind of people
(28:32):
, because somehow kokoro can bebe mirror of people's mind.
It is often used in calligraphythat deal with philosophy and
life.
Also it is heavily used inmartial arts because I think
mental states have very deepimpact on the outcome of fight.
(28:56):
So for centuries samuraitrained their skills, their
technical skills, in martialarts, but also they spent a lot
of time training their mind.
That's why a lot of ancientJapanese wisdom talks a lot
about kokoro.
Nick (29:19):
I guess the romantic perception is the warriors has
already won the battle in theirmind.
After it's sort of just theactions follow.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
So this deep thinking behindthis single word, and yeah, that
was really interesting, becauselearning to write just kanji in
(29:41):
general, kokoro is always hardto balance because you're
writing there's no connection.
But if I was writing somethinglike batashi, that's easy to
write because you kind of havethis structure to it.
Exactly, that's interesting.
So, on the theme of kokoro, oneconcept I love and try to
remember is shoshin, and Iencourage my students to embrace
(30:07):
this idea, and I think you'vewritten about this, so would you
like to speak on shoshin?
Naoko (30:14):
Okay.
Shoshin is generally understoodin Japan as beginner's mind.
When you learn something new,you need to be an empty vessel.
Don't try to import yourknowledge you have because that
will break the teaching.
(30:35):
You need to have a mind of realbeginner.
That's the definition ofShoshin most Japanese people
think.
However, I wrote a post aboutit from Zeami point of view.
Zeami established non-theaterfrom 14 to 15th century.
(30:57):
Superstar of performing arts.
Back then I'm sure he was likea rock star.
Nick (31:04):
Wow, okay.
Naoko (31:05):
Yeah, so Zeami's point of view is very different from
modern way of thinking.
Actually, it's reallycomplicated, difficult to
explain, so if people areinterested in better, to read my
LinkedIn post.
Nick (31:27):
We'll link to it.
So how about that?
Yeah it's quite.
I've read it.
It inspired me and yeah, yourposts are quite detailed and
long.
Naoko (31:38):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So anyway, his idea was to dealwith new situations and
challenges by capitalising onall the first experiences you
have had so far in your life.
Nick (31:58):
That's Zia Mi's Xiu Xin.
Now.
It's always a good approach tolearning, even if you think you
do know something you can.
Just well I'll empty the cupand refill it.
Maybe I'll learn something new,or I'll learn it in a different
light, a different perspective.
So let's continue with thistheme, using shin kukuro in
(32:20):
words, because you've writtenquite a, or you've brushed quite
a few words with shin andwritten posts.
So another one I picked up fromyou which I really like is
fudo-shin.
So what does that mean?
Naoko (32:35):
Fudo Shin.
Yes, that's an example ofspirituality in martial arts.
It's a Zen concept.
It was used by many samurai,famously Yagyu Munenori.
He was a prominent swordsmanwho served as a martial arts
(32:57):
instructor of Tokugawa Shogunate.
In English, Fudoshin istranslated to immovable mind.
Let me explain it simply.
Imagine this there is a youngperson new to Zen meditation and
a seasoned Zen master.
(33:18):
Both of them meditate and theirbrainwaves are monitored.
At first their brainwaves arecalm and similar.
Then a loud noise startles them.
Both have disturbed brainwavesat that moment.
But here's the interesting partthe young person's brainwaves
(33:43):
stay chaotic for a while, butthe Zen master's brain waves
quickly return to calm.
It shows that even the Zenmaster can be startled, but he
regains his calm much faster.
Kudoshin is translated toimmovable mind, but it's all
(34:05):
about being resilient andbouncing back.
It's a great reminder that inour daily lives, all about being
resilient and bouncing back,Nice.
It's a great reminder that inour daily lives, staying calm
during tough times is whatreally shows our strength.
Nick (34:22):
I love it.
It's really interesting becausethe three kanji characters also
convey that, you know, notmoving mind.
But this idea of yeah, bouncingback quickly and coming back to
your centre or being groundedis, I guess, that comes with,
(34:45):
you know, life experience, somuch to learn.
And then another quite commonterm that maybe some of our
listeners have heard is thisidea of Mushin, which I believe
is related to Bushido, sort of,I guess, the way of the warrior,
or Budo martial arts.
(35:07):
So yeah, how would you defineMushin?
Naoko (35:10):
Mushin.
In a way, it's close toFudoshin.
Difference is that Fudoshin isabout external influences, but
Mushin is more about your owninternal influences.
An easy way to explain it isthat when you drive and listen
(35:33):
to music, then at some point yourealize that you have been
driving for a long time withouteven thinking about it.
You just did it automatically.
Sometimes in English peopletranslate machine mind of no
mind.
Yeah, again, this is animportant concept in martial
(35:56):
arts.
Yes, of course, for samuraimushim means having a clear mind
, free from destructions, thanksto Buddhist and Zen teachings.
For them, on the battlefield,where life and death were
constant, zen's focus on cuttingoff attachments was crucial.
(36:19):
For them, muxin was not just amindset, but a life or death
technique.
Nick (36:28):
Yeah, it almost.
I just had this, this thought.
Now it's almost as if I mean,often, I guess, in the
battlefield, you're, you'reacting on instinct and you're,
you're in the hopefully, you'rein the zone and you're you don't
have time to think aboutworries or you're you're empty.
But it might be that the spirithas come to life, the spirit is
(36:49):
taking over, and we often havethe expression you know, act on
instinct, but maybe you'reacting with spirit.
You can only do that for, Iguess, a short amount of time.
So it's very intense, yeah yeah, yeah.
It's.
I guess in the modern worldit's these.
You know, the Olympics areabout to start, so maybe there
(37:10):
will be these amazingperformances or these moments of
victory where it happensmiraculously, somehow, someone
kicks a goal or, you know,someone breaks a world record.
All this years of training andtension comes down to this one
moment.
So I guess, mooshin, would bevery, very helpful if you can
(37:32):
reach that state.
Yeah, I think so, yeah, and Ithink we've got time for a few
more.
One more, and this one I hadnot ever heard about.
And again through your work,heijoushin, I've learned so much
from you, naoko, so what doesHeijoushin mean?
Naoko (37:54):
Well, again, it's close to hudoushin.
Well, heijoushin translates tostaying calm in any situation
and of course, again, it'sheavily used in martial arts.
The famous Miyamoto Musashialso spoke of a similar mindset.
(38:16):
When the body is still, let notthe mind be still, and when the
body moves violently, keep themind tranquil.
Do not let your spirit bedrugged by the body's movement,
nor let the body be influencedby the mind.
Always be mindful of the spiritand not be distracted by the
(38:40):
body.
Isn't that beautiful?
Nick (38:44):
It's beautiful, it's very.
It makes me think, wow, youhave to be a very evolved person
to achieve that.
Yeah, I mean.
The first kanji character, if Iremember correctly, is hey, is
that flat?
Yes, flat.
So you're not zigzagging,you're kind of at peace with
(39:05):
your mind.
Naoko (39:06):
Yes, calm.
Nick (39:08):
Regardless if you're in this intense situation of stress
or battle.
Naoko (39:15):
Yeah, for me every time I need to calligraphy on
expensive material like ceramic.
It's hard to maintainHeizyoshin.
My body is still heavilyinfluenced by mind sometimes.
Nick (39:32):
And perhaps this is our problem in the modern world,
where we're overstimulated,we're distracted, we're
frustrated and we turn to TV oralcohol, cigarettes to calm
ourselves.
Naoko (39:51):
And we don't.
Nick (39:52):
Disruption.
So do you find, I imagine, asan artist, where you are
preparing yourself, you've gotthe ink, you've prepared all the
paper, you have the image ofthe kanji in mind.
It's still quite intense, yes,because then you have to brush
it and it's very much.
(40:13):
I imagine there's a lot of.
You will never draw the samecharacter, exactly the same,
ever.
There will be always a slightdifference, or maybe even a big
difference.
So is that quite mentallychallenging.
Do you get stressed or are youkind of do you have hey josh in?
Naoko (40:36):
Well, so it's difficult.
I don't know.
It really depends on the.
If I say luck, it's not goodthe moment, we'll call it the
moment, the moment.
Yeah, it depends on the moment,yes, um.
(40:58):
So when I brush and I think, oh, this is good in my opinion,
but maybe the client doesn'tlike it, it happens.
So I try to think thateverything is good for someone
(41:23):
Nice.
Nick (41:26):
That's a good approach.
Naoko (41:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't want to feelpressure because it's ridiculous
.
Nick (41:34):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Naoko (41:36):
I don't work for a company, so I want to do in my
way, really.
Nick (41:44):
Well, you must be, I mean your work must be appreciated if
you are doing this as yourprofession, and it's a rare be,
I mean your work must beappreciated if you are doing
this as your profession and it'sa rare thing, I think, to be a
full-time, you know,calligrapher or artist and have
people we kind of touched onthis Like we could argue any
kind of artwork in an office orpublic space is like not a
(42:07):
necessity, you don't really needit.
But if someone is willing tospend, you know, invest in it,
it's, you know, it would meansomething to them and hopefully
they want to not only decoratetheir workspace but perhaps yeah
, they want to choose a wordthat inspires themselves, their
(42:28):
customers, the people that comeinto their workspace.
So it must be very gratifyingfor you to do work you love,
that you find meaning andpurpose in, and have people
willing to pay you.
Naoko (42:43):
Yes, I'm very much thankful.
Nick (42:50):
Awesome.
Well, I think we can end withone more, and this is a term
that you actually have, I guessadvice, or it's this idea of a
tip for a better tomorrow.
So what is the word and what isthe advice you have?
Naoko (43:08):
Yeah, the word is zanshin .
Zanshin is a very fundamentalaspect in Japanese martial arts
Again, martial arts.
Sorry, but actually it's mybest seller, zanshin.
I love zanshin because manymartial artists have asked me to
(43:32):
make this calligraphy for them,so it's a very important word.
Basically, zanshin meanslingering mind.
Lingering mind if you do, forexample, kendo competition,
zanshin is required to score apoint.
(43:52):
Zanshin is not a stroke, it'snot an even stroke, it's just a
mindset, but it's actuallyrequired to score a point.
You must be wondering what itis and how that works.
Let me explain it simply Evenafter you strike your opponent
(44:15):
Pan, you need to stay alert incase he strikes back.
You need to leave your mindthere.
Mind behind, lingering mindthat's zanshin.
I can explain it in a morefamiliar way.
You can see that in many movies,when the bad guy is defeated,
(44:40):
then the good guy celebrates yay, I did it again.
And all of a sudden the bad guywasn't dead and he's trapped.
Yes, yes.
That's the example of lack ofzanshin.
Okay.
Nick (45:00):
Yeah, that happens often in movies.
Naoko (45:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it happens often in your life,
right?
Even in your life it happens,yeah, yeah, often In your life,
right?
Nick (45:08):
Even in your life it happens.
Yeah, you actually reminded me.
There was this.
There's like a whole series ofYouTube videos where it's
celebrating too early and youhave these athletes who
celebrate too early and thenthey lose.
So they're running and theythink they've won and so they
(45:29):
slow down and put their hands upand then someone quickly passes
them and they lose.
Or another one was thisgoalkeeper and it was a penalty
kick and he blocked it and kindof went off and he walked off
really cool and then the ballbounced but it had all this
backspin and it slowly enteredthe goal line and you can see
(45:55):
he's showing off and then hesuddenly turns around.
He's like, oh no, um.
So his ego yeah, it's like thezanshin is like the opposite to
the ego, where your ego switchesthe focus to you.
I'm great, I've won.
Something bad happens.
Naoko (46:19):
So yeah, so Zanshin is a concept which has been at the
core of Japanese martial artsfor centuries.
People who want to know moredetails of Zanshin please read
my LinkedIn post again.
I explained it in a moreprofound way there, I guess.
Nick (46:43):
Yes, we'll link to LinkedIn and we might even quote
some of your LinkedIn posts inthe show notes.
But yeah, I mean Zanshin alsokind of reminds me of how
Japanese are very like they dothings properly and do things
diligently, and do things tocompletion, yeah, so I'm not
(47:07):
surprised.
Maybe this concept drives thosebehaviours of chanto suru to do
things properly, or evenkodowari like Mm kodowari.
Yeah, do things with great care.
So I'm now curious much of yourkanji or calligraphy, I should
(47:30):
say relates to Budo.
Have you ever done any martialarts yourself?
Naoko (47:37):
Actually, no.
Well, I tried to do karate whenI was a junior high school
student, karate when I was ajunior high school student, but
(47:57):
I did it for one year, but oncea week, so I didn't get better,
oh, once a week.
That's probably not enough,right, right?
(48:21):
So, um, yes, for for myself Iprefer to do dance ballet, uh,
latin dancing or social dancing,something like that, so it's
not my preference.
Budo is not my preference, butI love the philosophy.
Nick (48:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Naoko (48:31):
And I love war period novels and yeah, so just
philosophy, not doing.
Nick (48:43):
Yeah, but there's I mean there's so much to learn behind
all these philosophical uniqueconcepts about, I guess, the,
the way of the warrior, or, youknow, the, the mind, the, the
internal battle is usually thehardest one, yes, the one we
have with our mind and ourperception of self.
(49:03):
And so japanese seem to be veryaware of all of this, I guess,
as in buddh, yeah, seem tounderstand this, and I guess now
we're realising all of this andwe're validating it all with,
you know, modern research.
Yeah, it's fascinating howthese were concepts discussed
(49:26):
hundreds of years ago and putinto practice through the
practice of martial art and alsofine arts or calligraphy.
It also reminds me of, likeshokunin, like the mind of the
craftsperson, and how they candedicate their life to, you know
, making pottery, yeah, yeah,yeah, their mind and, yeah,
(49:48):
focus.
So it's very, very fascinatingwhat a wonderful culture you
have.
So now I'm curious iscalligraphy a source of ikigai,
or is this study of buddhism andyou know as not buddhism so
much, but I guess the way ofBuddha, is that a source of
(50:11):
ikigai for you to study Buddhaor brush calligraphy?
Naoko (50:16):
For me yeah yeah, for you .
I should say yes here, right.
Nick (50:26):
Just say what's true.
I mean, it could be somethingelse.
Naoko (50:29):
yeah, Just say what's true, I mean it could be
something else.
Yeah, well, I like what I doand I love this Japanese
philosophy and culture, oldtraditions, I love it.
But talking about ikigai, Inever thought about it, honestly
(50:52):
, because I even didn't know.
The ikigai concept is veryfamous abroad.
I even didn't know.
So for me, what is my ikigai?
Yeah, but anyway, I want topeople to know this Japanese
(51:19):
wisdom.
So I want to work what I do,focusing more, more and more,
and it's really difficult to sayWon't you be big?
Nick (51:33):
More involved.
Naoko (51:35):
Not big, but Reach more people.
Nick (51:40):
Yeah, it sounds like reach more people yes, yes, yes, yeah
, yeah.
Naoko (51:45):
So it could be my ikigai right now.
Nick (51:50):
Yeah, I mean.
Another word that might beappropriate is shimekan.
Do you have a sense of purposewith your work?
Shimekan?
Yes, Very tied strongly toikigai for some people.
Yeah, I mean, this is thefascinating aspect of ikigai.
(52:10):
It is this popular concept, andmany Japanese, yeah, don't even
think about it.
Naoko (52:17):
Right.
Nick (52:17):
And when you ask them they're a bit surprised Like
what?
Like how do you know this word?
Or why are you asking?
And then there's thesedifferent perspectives.
Someone like Ken Ichiro Magiwill say it's a spectrum of all
these small things in your lifeyour morning coffee walking,
your dog going for a run.
(52:37):
Or some people might say, oh no, it's more than that, it's your
life purpose.
So it's always interesting toget honest reactions from my
guests.
Yeah, it's always fascinating.
Naoko (52:58):
Actually, because I know the interviews happening today.
Last weekend I talked to myfather and asked him what is
your ikigai?
And he said oh, this isdifficult, I don't know.
Nick (53:19):
Really.
Yeah, it's funny, I've had thesame reaction sometimes and I go
oh, maybe my family, I'm notsure Kind of answers to a
Japanese person I asked said, oh, it's camping, camping with my
friends, and it was reallyspecific and I thought, ah, so
(53:41):
there was that social aspect andyou know, getting away from
life and having a good time.
So, yeah, it's probablysomething we should think about
more often.
You know what gives our lifemeaning and purpose and
fulfillment we're usually toostressed and busy, but thank you
(54:05):
, naoko, for all the wisdomyou've shared today, and I'm
sure our listeners would like tolearn more about you.
Thank you, naoko, for all thewisdom you've shared today, and
I'm sure our listeners wouldlike to learn more about you.
So how can people find youonline.
Naoko (54:16):
Please visit my website or LinkedIn.
I'm very active on LinkedIn.
Nick (54:27):
I have Instagram, but not that much, so we'll link to your
website and that is fumicom.
So that's f-u-h-m-icom, andpeople can see your wonderful
calligraphy work.
And, yeah, if you want to learnabout Japanese wisdom, go to
LinkedIn and you can check outall of Naoko's posts.
(54:51):
So that's Naoko Mikami.
And, yeah, learn all theseamazing words like I'm learning.
So thank you.
So, yes, thank you very muchfor your time today, naoko,
thank you.
Naoko (55:10):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
thank you.
When I started to do calligraphy again, I focused a
lot on design.
I even mixed painting for awhile.
Drawing painting, I alsofocused on some technical
aspects of using the brush, butthen at some point I realized
(00:23):
that maybe that was not how itwas supposed to be done.
When you think aboutcalligraphy in the past, like
Edo period or before, it is verydifferent from what we see
nowadays, I think.
And now many calligraphers tendto go more and more abstract,
(00:49):
focusing on lines and flow, andto me it seems that we are
losing the meaning ofcalligraphy.
Nick (01:15):
My guest today on the Ikigai Podcast is Naoko Mikami,
a leading calligrapher andtranslator in the field of
Japanese martial arts andtraditional culture.
Naoko creates calligraphy fordojos, businesses, and
meditation centers in Japan andabroad.
She frequently collaborateswith martial arts federations
(01:37):
and prominent publicationsfocused on Budo, Zen, and
wellness.
Her work can be found in publicand private spaces throughout
the world.
A former director of ArtCurator Japan, an initiative
that aimed at promoting Japaneseartists internationally, Naoko
nowadays works primarily on herown calligraphy career.
Naoko, welcome to the podcast.
(01:59):
Thank you for joining me today.
Naoko (02:02):
Thank you for having me, Nick.
I saw your website and thenumber of interviews you've made
.
That was pretty impressive.
Thank you for your passion forthis Japanese concept, ikigai.
NICK:Yes, it it's my ikigaiactually exploring, researching
ikigai, and I have these, youknow, inspiring and wonderful
(02:23):
conversations with japanese andnon-japanese about ikigai.
And I have these, you know,inspiring and wonderful
conversations with Japanese andnon-Japanese about Ikigai and
Japanese culture in general.
So it's a real honor always.
So thank you for being here.
And yeah, as you know, Istumbled upon your amazing
calligraphy via LinkedIn, but Iwas also really impressed by
your explanations, theseinsightful explanations and
(02:46):
stories related to the proverbsand words that you brush, and
I've already learned so muchfrom you.
So would you like to share yourjourney to becoming a
professional calligrapher?
Yes, I don't remember exactly.
I think I was around seven whenI started calligraphy.
(03:07):
My cousin started to go to asmall private calligraphy school
in town, so I wanted to jointhem.
Actually, at the same time theystarted learning classical
ballet too and I really, reallywanted to do it rather than
calligraphy, but my parentsdidn't say okay to ballet I
(03:31):
suspect that they couldn'tafford ballet Anyway.
So I just went calligraphy withmy cousins and I think I wasn't
a passionate student.
First of all, I didn't like theschool because it smelled bad.
(03:52):
It smelled heavily ink, verybad.
Now that I think about it, Irealize it was the smell of
rotting ink.
Ink is made with soot andanimal glue.
It can mold or rot.
I see, yeah, the expensive inkuse high-quality instances and
(04:31):
typically smell nice, but thishigh temperature and humidity
can ruin them.
So when you handle the Japaneseink, better to be careful.
Okay, I didn't know all this.
Wow, anyway, I remember therotting ink smell and I didn't
(04:51):
like it.
And I also remember that therewere no hot water in the school
so we needed to clean the brushwith cold water and my hands got
damaged in winter, so cold.
Also, I remember the teacherwas not very adapted young kids.
(05:15):
The class was not veryinteresting to me.
Sounds like a bad start.
Yeah Sounds like a bad start.
Yeah, At the time also, weneeded to do calligraphy at a
subject in elementary school andI was scolded by a teacher in
(05:37):
front of everyone yourcalligraphy is not.
That is not good at all.
Really, that hurt me a lot.
Nick (05:48):
Oh, wow, okay.
Naoko (05:50):
So, naturally, very quickly I hated calligraphy and
I quit.
My calligraphy career was overafter a very short period, I see
, but fortunately because myparents were busy all the time.
I was raised by my grandmother.
(06:12):
She was a poet and calligrapher.
So she taught me calligraphyNice yeah.
Taught me calligraphy Nice yeah.
And she was strict, but atleast her ink smelled good Good.
She was patient very much, so Istudied with her for a long
(06:40):
time Good memory.
Nick (06:44):
She was obviously perhaps a more generous and kind teacher
yes, I think so, she.
Naoko (06:51):
She motivated to me better than others.
So, and then I became ateenager.
I started to be mostlyinterested in Western culture,
like movies, music, literature,fashion.
So I kind of put asidecalligraphy again.
(07:15):
Then my first job I was a staffat International Budo
University, which is a veryfamous place in Japan for
martial arts.
The thing is that I couldn't docalligraphy anymore because I
was busy with work, but on theother hand, I met many famous
(07:37):
Japanese historians and alsomartial arts experts.
Sometimes I helped them withtheir projects, and so many
years I was immersed by this oldsamurai culture, history and
Japanese traditions.
Wow, yes, that was fun.
(08:01):
Although I didn't docalligraphy anymore, I had the
opportunity to learn manyphilosophical aspects about
japan, but working in japanesecompany, you know it's very hard
(08:22):
, yes, yeah, Relationshipinefficiency, conservativeness,
too much stress, Too much stress.
So I decided to quit and luckilyI could quit and went to Taiwan
.
New World, yay, Wow.
(08:44):
Taiwan new world, yay, wow.
At first, in Taiwan, I was abit lost.
After serving company for manyyears, this total freedom
confused me Really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I didn't know what to do, but Iwas surrounded by people in art
(09:06):
world and they pushed me to docalligraphy again.
I hesitated for a while, butanyway I decided to do.
Nick (09:16):
Nice.
Naoko (09:18):
Then I started a different project related to art
and calligraphy Art CuratorJapan.
I see, and I did my first majorexhibition in France in 2018, I
think, and I really didn't knowwhat to expect but, to my
(09:41):
surprise, I sold everything.
Oh, really, wow, yes, that'sgreat.
That's where I decided to dothis full time.
Nick (09:52):
Yeah that would have been a very affirming, life-affirming
and wonderful experience tosell all your work Like that's.
The hardest thing of an artistis to sell their work.
Naoko (10:03):
Yes, exactly, the hardest thing of an artist is to sell
their work.
Yes, exactly, I didn't expectmuch, but you know.
Nick (10:12):
Well, that's a fascinating history.
So maybe you were born to docalligraphy.
Naoko (10:18):
I don't know, but I hope so.
Nick (10:22):
And actually behind you, I'm assuming, is that one of
your works?
Naoko (10:26):
ah, yes, uh, can I talk about this?
Yeah, please do yeah, okay,this is a piece consisting of
four scrolls called withheaven's help.
I wanted to put all the scrollshere, but too bad, my wall is
not big enough.
Oh too bad.
(10:49):
Anyway, this characterrepresents heaven.
This whole piece in Japanese.
Basically, it means puttingeverything on the line in one
big gamble.
Nick (11:07):
Oh wow, Risky goal yeah.
Naoko (11:12):
In life there is always a moment when you face big risk,
this kenkom iteki moment.
But this moment doesn't justappear out of nowhere.
You have to work hard andprepare to know when to take
that leap, when you are kind ofall you, all you can and are
(11:37):
ready to take the gamble.
That's when you get help fromabove.
Nick (11:44):
I see, yeah, I think that's true.
Naoko (11:49):
Yeah, yeah yeah, and each character in the piece shows
its own strength and togetherthey create a powerful pull.
It's all about personal growth,working with your environment
and getting ready for the bigchallenges in life.
Nick (12:08):
Wow.
Naoko (12:08):
I love this word and I love this piece.
Nick (12:11):
Nice, thank you.
Is this Yoji Jukugo?
Is this a four-characterprogram?
Yes, yes, yes, all right, we'llhave to include it in the show
notes because it sounds veryprofound and philosophical.
Naoko (12:25):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Nick (12:30):
So you have a very looks like a very freeing cursive
style of calligraphy, so perhapswe could talk about that.
How long did it take for you tofind your style Actually?
Naoko (12:44):
it took some time to come here.
So when I started to docalligraphy again, I focused a
lot on design.
I even mixed painting for awhile drawing, painting, drawing
painting.
I also focused on sometechnical aspects of using the
(13:06):
brush, but then at some point Irealized that maybe that was not
how it was supposed to be done.
When you think aboutcalligraphy in the past, like
Edo period or before, it is verydifferent from what we see
(13:29):
nowadays, I think.
And now many calligraphers tendto go more and more abstract,
focusing on lines and flow, andto me it seems that we are
losing the meaning ofcalligraphy.
In the past, calligraphy wassimpler the message was the most
(13:57):
important thing, not thepicture effect, not the
aesthetics.
We can even debate calligraphywas even considered as art or
not.
I decided to go back to thatspirit.
Nick (14:15):
Wonderful.
Naoko (14:17):
Sure, you can appreciate calligraphy as an art form,
especially if you don't readkanji.
That's the only way you canappreciate it.
I think it's a beautiful thing,but if you can read kanji, the
meaning should be the mostimportant thing.
A long time ago, samurai,warlords, nobility and monks
(14:43):
they all had calligraphy wherethey lived, where they worked.
Why?
Because the message on thecalligraphy was important.
Because the message on thecalligraphy was important.
The message was supposed tomake them reflect on what they
did, on their life, and themessage could make their
(15:03):
motivation higher.
The message is all about themessage.
I'm trying to achieve the samething with what I do now.
The message should empower theperson who owns the calligraphy.
So, yes, it took me some timeto get here.
Nick (15:25):
Well, it's interesting because you've had your own
personal journey from havingthese sort of bad experiences
when you're younger and notreally enjoying calligraphy, and
then rediscovering it.
You're also going back to theroots of calligraphy, where it's
not really an art.
It's this expression ofsomething meaningful, but it's a
(15:49):
very beautiful way to convey amessage Exactly.
And even if you cannot readcalligraphy, there is something
about the balance of white spaceand these, the flow of the
strokes that's very appealing.
And then, if you can read ityeah, like my one, kokoroz it is
(16:12):
this reminder for me to pursuewhat I care about and keep
learning, keep growing andmaintain my motivation and have
my ambition.
So I guess I relate Kokorozashito my business, so I'm always
looking to learn from people andhave guests and now.
I'm going to be doing retreats,so this is a lovely reminder to,
(16:35):
oh yeah, keep believing inmyself and keep believing in
what I do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's so attractive, the kanjiyou and other artists brush or
draw.
It's very.
I feel like I can sensesomething because it is at the
same time abstract when youcannot read it, but you can feel
(16:59):
this idea of flow, like theflow of your brush is captured
in the ink.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, youkind of feel it.
So it's beautiful in so manyways the simplicity but
conveying meaning behind theseproverbs or expressions.
Naoko (17:16):
I love calligraphy because they have a lot of white
blank space.
That's beautiful it isbeautiful yeah.
I love it too.
Nick (17:27):
Let's talk about you as the artist.
You have an artist name, whichis Fumi, so what does that name
mean?
Naoko (17:37):
Yes, thank you for asking this question.
I'm happy to answer.
Nick (17:45):
I'm excited to hear the answer.
Naoko (17:49):
Fumi means not beautiful.
So many people ask me why Ichose this name, especially in
Taiwan, because we use mostlysame kanji, so they understand
the meaning and why I chose thisstrange name, they wondered.
Well, in Japanese calligraphyworld people tend to choose very
(18:17):
stylish, elegant, beautiful,sometimes even snobbish
calligrapher name.
I see, yeah, I always find itkind of stupid, so sorry my
language, so I decided to gopunk instead.
Nick (18:45):
That's not uncommon for artists to go against.
I guess the main, you know,conservative ideals and express
themselves with.
I'm going to go against thisand I have a different
perspective or a different idea.
Naoko (19:01):
Yes, yeah, that's why I chose Hume, and also I tend to
suffer from very strong impostersyndrome, so choosing Hume not
beautiful as a calligrapher namewas very appealing to my
imposter syndrome somehow wow,well, that's, that's an
(19:23):
interesting idea the impostersyndrome of a professional
calligrapher, because it's it'ssubjective too and it's um
artistic expression.
Nick (19:34):
yeah, that's interesting.
I didn't imagine you'd haveimposter syndrome, but I guess
many people do, artists do.
I do?
I'm an Australian talking aboutit, you guys.
So I have a lot of impostersyndrome and I do worry about
this.
So maybe we all have impostersyndrome oh yes, maybe life is
(19:58):
tough it is sometimes, but itsounds like you really enjoy
what you're doing now and you,you brush custom calligraphy,
blending ancient wisdom withmodern aesthetics to create
motivational artworks forleaders and for workspaces
around the world.
So that must be reallyinspiring that you're not just
(20:22):
doing this in Japan, you'redoing it in different countries.
So when you're doing thesecustom pieces, when you're
commissioned to do that, what'sthe process?
What is your artwork designedto do?
When it's meant to, I guess,fill a space or decorate a space
?
Naoko (20:41):
Okay, so the process is like this, the practical one I
talk to my clients and what kindof motivation they want, and I
(21:01):
brush several types ofcalligraphy and the client
choose one of them.
So basically, as I said before,the most important is the
message.
So I value message which theywant to talk about the most I
see the message.
Nick (21:22):
As you said earlier, the message is more important.
Yes, awesome, and then, oncethe message is chosen, I guess
you then go and brush the piece.
Yes, so I always have this ideathat if an artist is doing
something, like a kakejiku, likesometimes, you have one chance
(21:46):
to do it.
Naoko (21:47):
Yes, yes, sometimes, but tailored.
I am mostly working on tailoredkakejuku, so I brush a big
paper and so the client choosewhat they like like yeah, then I
(22:08):
send it to the kakejuku makerand the craftsman do the okay.
Nick (22:16):
So you, I see, okay, that's good.
So yeah, kakejuku means, Iguess, hanging scroll, yes yes
yeah, um, let's touch on, Iguess, budo samurai, because
that is a strong theme in yourwork.
So if we go back to samuraisamurai era, what was
(22:37):
calligraphy for in, I guess forsamurai in in their days?
Uh, you touched on it earlier.
This, this reminder of how tolive your life, or maybe a a
virtue to uphold things likethat?
Yeah, exactly.
Naoko (22:56):
So sometimes they do Kali Rumi by their own, but
sometimes some samurai presentshis work to other samurai and it
(23:16):
was not that special at thetime, I think, but the message
was important.
But it doesn't matter.
It matters, but it doesn't thatmatter if the work is beautiful
or not.
Nick (23:34):
I think it was the message , always the message.
This is really interesting,yeah, but I think that makes
sense.
You take this time to have anartist write a message.
Of course the message wouldhave a lot of thought and
feeling behind it.
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of.
I guess, as Westerners we seesamurais, these warriors you
(23:57):
know, fighting and killingpeople, but this other side to
them, where they're drinking teaand discussing calligraphy and
giving gifts of calligraphies,yes, I guess it's that, the
softness of the warrior, or theinner heart of the warrior, that
we don't often talk about, ofthe warrior, or the inner heart
of the warrior that we don'toften talk about.
Naoko (24:19):
There is a word called bunbu ryodo, so it means bun,
the study, and bu, the martialarts Always you need to have
both ways in your side.
Nick (24:35):
Good way to live by and do would be the path and do would
be to.
I don't know.
To yes, oh, okay, cool, wow,there we go.
So that's what I love too.
I love the learnings fromstudying, you know, studying
(24:56):
calligraphy, and what I'venoticed in general and in your
work on LinkedIn, you oftenmention or you often have
calligraphy pieces that mentionthe word shin or kokoro.
Yes, and you know, I guess inthe West we might understand
kokoro's heart, but it's, it'smore than that.
(25:18):
I have this idea.
It conveys mind, heart andspirit almost as one entity.
So it took me a while tounderstand kokoro.
But, yeah, how would you defineshin or kokoro?
Yeah, okay, um, Kokoro.
Naoko (25:32):
Okay, the other day during our Zoom call, you said
like that.
You said it's difficult totranslate kokoro into English
with just one word yes, that'svery true, very true.
Kokoro is a difficult conceptto explain, like many Japanese
(25:53):
things which are kind of vague.
So Japanese people intuitivelyunderstand it, but it's
generally difficult for us toexplain it for foreigners.
Basically, as you said, it canmean at the same time heart,
mind and spirit.
(26:14):
But even in english for me it'sdifficult to make difference
between mind and spirit.
So I think it's fundamentally adifficult concept to to explain
.
Kokoro is about emotions,intellect and spiritual.
Nick (26:37):
Yeah, that's really interesting because we often
have this expression you know,think with your mind, feel with
your heart, and we're almostseparating the two.
But kokoro kind of conveys theidea well, you cannot live or
function without both workingtogether.
Yeah, and then there's thespirit, which we probably don't.
We're so busy in the world andthe modern world we don't
(27:01):
connect to spirit that oftenSome people might not even
believe there is the spirit.
They might only think it's oh,it's just your mind and the
heart just pumps blood andthat's all.
So I guess there's a lot of.
There's far more reflectionbehind these concepts of
Japanese words, I think,compared to you know, modern
(27:22):
Western thinking and a lot ofhistory.
So that's why it's probablyhard for Westerners to
understand, and typically in theWest we're kind of looking for
a quick answer, like just tellme what it is, you know, don't
worry about the details which isnot really the best way to
approach learning, I think,words in any language.
(27:46):
The deeper you go, obviously,the better you can understand
and communicate.
So it's this journey oflearning.
So it's always a journey oflearning for me, for Japanese.
Yeah, why do you feature kokoroor shin to readings of the
kanji?
So much in your work.
Naoko (28:08):
Ah yes, in calligraphy kokoro is a very unique
character.
In calligraphy, kokoro is avery unique character.
It has only four strokes whichare not connected to each other,
so it's hard to brush becauseit has a kind of floating
sensation.
It can be very delicate or verystrong, like the mind of people
(28:32):
, because somehow kokoro can bebe mirror of people's mind.
It is often used in calligraphythat deal with philosophy and
life.
Also it is heavily used inmartial arts because I think
mental states have very deepimpact on the outcome of fight.
(28:56):
So for centuries samuraitrained their skills, their
technical skills, in martialarts, but also they spent a lot
of time training their mind.
That's why a lot of ancientJapanese wisdom talks a lot
about kokoro.
Nick (29:19):
I guess the romantic perception is the warriors has
already won the battle in theirmind.
After it's sort of just theactions follow.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
So this deep thinking behindthis single word, and yeah, that
was really interesting, becauselearning to write just kanji in
(29:41):
general, kokoro is always hardto balance because you're
writing there's no connection.
But if I was writing somethinglike batashi, that's easy to
write because you kind of havethis structure to it.
Exactly, that's interesting.
So, on the theme of kokoro, oneconcept I love and try to
remember is shoshin, and Iencourage my students to embrace
(30:07):
this idea, and I think you'vewritten about this, so would you
like to speak on shoshin?
Naoko (30:14):
Okay.
Shoshin is generally understoodin Japan as beginner's mind.
When you learn something new,you need to be an empty vessel.
Don't try to import yourknowledge you have because that
will break the teaching.
(30:35):
You need to have a mind of realbeginner.
That's the definition ofShoshin most Japanese people
think.
However, I wrote a post aboutit from Zeami point of view.
Zeami established non-theaterfrom 14 to 15th century.
(30:57):
Superstar of performing arts.
Back then I'm sure he was likea rock star.
Nick (31:04):
Wow, okay.
Naoko (31:05):
Yeah, so Zeami's point of view is very different from
modern way of thinking.
Actually, it's reallycomplicated, difficult to
explain, so if people areinterested in better, to read my
LinkedIn post.
Nick (31:27):
We'll link to it.
So how about that?
Yeah it's quite.
I've read it.
It inspired me and yeah, yourposts are quite detailed and
long.
Naoko (31:38):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So anyway, his idea was to dealwith new situations and
challenges by capitalising onall the first experiences you
have had so far in your life.
Nick (31:58):
That's Zia Mi's Xiu Xin.
Now.
It's always a good approach tolearning, even if you think you
do know something you can.
Just well I'll empty the cupand refill it.
Maybe I'll learn something new,or I'll learn it in a different
light, a different perspective.
So let's continue with thistheme, using shin kukuro in
(32:20):
words, because you've writtenquite a, or you've brushed quite
a few words with shin andwritten posts.
So another one I picked up fromyou which I really like is
fudo-shin.
So what does that mean?
Naoko (32:35):
Fudo Shin.
Yes, that's an example ofspirituality in martial arts.
It's a Zen concept.
It was used by many samurai,famously Yagyu Munenori.
He was a prominent swordsmanwho served as a martial arts
(32:57):
instructor of Tokugawa Shogunate.
In English, Fudoshin istranslated to immovable mind.
Let me explain it simply.
Imagine this there is a youngperson new to Zen meditation and
a seasoned Zen master.
(33:18):
Both of them meditate and theirbrainwaves are monitored.
At first their brainwaves arecalm and similar.
Then a loud noise startles them.
Both have disturbed brainwavesat that moment.
But here's the interesting partthe young person's brainwaves
(33:43):
stay chaotic for a while, butthe Zen master's brain waves
quickly return to calm.
It shows that even the Zenmaster can be startled, but he
regains his calm much faster.
Kudoshin is translated toimmovable mind, but it's all
(34:05):
about being resilient andbouncing back.
It's a great reminder that inour daily lives, all about being
resilient and bouncing back,Nice.
It's a great reminder that inour daily lives, staying calm
during tough times is whatreally shows our strength.
Nick (34:22):
I love it.
It's really interesting becausethe three kanji characters also
convey that, you know, notmoving mind.
But this idea of yeah, bouncingback quickly and coming back to
your centre or being groundedis, I guess, that comes with,
(34:45):
you know, life experience, somuch to learn.
And then another quite commonterm that maybe some of our
listeners have heard is thisidea of Mushin, which I believe
is related to Bushido, sort of,I guess, the way of the warrior,
or Budo martial arts.
(35:07):
So yeah, how would you defineMushin?
Naoko (35:10):
Mushin.
In a way, it's close toFudoshin.
Difference is that Fudoshin isabout external influences, but
Mushin is more about your owninternal influences.
An easy way to explain it isthat when you drive and listen
(35:33):
to music, then at some point yourealize that you have been
driving for a long time withouteven thinking about it.
You just did it automatically.
Sometimes in English peopletranslate machine mind of no
mind.
Yeah, again, this is animportant concept in martial
(35:56):
arts.
Yes, of course, for samuraimushim means having a clear mind
, free from destructions, thanksto Buddhist and Zen teachings.
For them, on the battlefield,where life and death were
constant, zen's focus on cuttingoff attachments was crucial.
(36:19):
For them, muxin was not just amindset, but a life or death
technique.
Nick (36:28):
Yeah, it almost.
I just had this, this thought.
Now it's almost as if I mean,often, I guess, in the
battlefield, you're, you'reacting on instinct and you're,
you're in the hopefully, you'rein the zone and you're you don't
have time to think aboutworries or you're you're empty.
But it might be that the spirithas come to life, the spirit is
(36:49):
taking over, and we often havethe expression you know, act on
instinct, but maybe you'reacting with spirit.
You can only do that for, Iguess, a short amount of time.
So it's very intense, yeah yeah, yeah.
It's.
I guess in the modern worldit's these.
You know, the Olympics areabout to start, so maybe there
(37:10):
will be these amazingperformances or these moments of
victory where it happensmiraculously, somehow, someone
kicks a goal or, you know,someone breaks a world record.
All this years of training andtension comes down to this one
moment.
So I guess, mooshin, would bevery, very helpful if you can
(37:32):
reach that state.
Yeah, I think so, yeah, and Ithink we've got time for a few
more.
One more, and this one I hadnot ever heard about.
And again through your work,heijoushin, I've learned so much
from you, naoko, so what doesHeijoushin mean?
Naoko (37:54):
Well, again, it's close to hudoushin.
Well, heijoushin translates tostaying calm in any situation
and of course, again, it'sheavily used in martial arts.
The famous Miyamoto Musashialso spoke of a similar mindset.
(38:16):
When the body is still, let notthe mind be still, and when the
body moves violently, keep themind tranquil.
Do not let your spirit bedrugged by the body's movement,
nor let the body be influencedby the mind.
Always be mindful of the spiritand not be distracted by the
(38:40):
body.
Isn't that beautiful?
Nick (38:44):
It's beautiful, it's very.
It makes me think, wow, youhave to be a very evolved person
to achieve that.
Yeah, I mean.
The first kanji character, if Iremember correctly, is hey, is
that flat?
Yes, flat.
So you're not zigzagging,you're kind of at peace with
(39:05):
your mind.
Naoko (39:06):
Yes, calm.
Nick (39:08):
Regardless if you're in this intense situation of stress
or battle.
Naoko (39:15):
Yeah, for me every time I need to calligraphy on
expensive material like ceramic.
It's hard to maintainHeizyoshin.
My body is still heavilyinfluenced by mind sometimes.
Nick (39:32):
And perhaps this is our problem in the modern world,
where we're overstimulated,we're distracted, we're
frustrated and we turn to TV oralcohol, cigarettes to calm
ourselves.
Naoko (39:51):
And we don't.
Nick (39:52):
Disruption.
So do you find, I imagine, asan artist, where you are
preparing yourself, you've gotthe ink, you've prepared all the
paper, you have the image ofthe kanji in mind.
It's still quite intense, yes,because then you have to brush
it and it's very much.
(40:13):
I imagine there's a lot of.
You will never draw the samecharacter, exactly the same,
ever.
There will be always a slightdifference, or maybe even a big
difference.
So is that quite mentallychallenging.
Do you get stressed or are youkind of do you have hey josh in?
Naoko (40:36):
Well, so it's difficult.
I don't know.
It really depends on the.
If I say luck, it's not goodthe moment, we'll call it the
moment, the moment.
Yeah, it depends on the moment,yes, um.
(40:58):
So when I brush and I think, oh, this is good in my opinion,
but maybe the client doesn'tlike it, it happens.
So I try to think thateverything is good for someone
(41:23):
Nice.
Nick (41:26):
That's a good approach.
Naoko (41:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't want to feelpressure because it's ridiculous
.
Nick (41:34):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Naoko (41:36):
I don't work for a company, so I want to do in my
way, really.
Nick (41:44):
Well, you must be, I mean your work must be appreciated if
you are doing this as yourprofession, and it's a rare be,
I mean your work must beappreciated if you are doing
this as your profession and it'sa rare thing, I think, to be a
full-time, you know,calligrapher or artist and have
people we kind of touched onthis Like we could argue any
kind of artwork in an office orpublic space is like not a
(42:07):
necessity, you don't really needit.
But if someone is willing tospend, you know, invest in it,
it's, you know, it would meansomething to them and hopefully
they want to not only decoratetheir workspace but perhaps yeah
, they want to choose a wordthat inspires themselves, their
(42:28):
customers, the people that comeinto their workspace.
So it must be very gratifyingfor you to do work you love,
that you find meaning andpurpose in, and have people
willing to pay you.
Naoko (42:43):
Yes, I'm very much thankful.
Nick (42:50):
Awesome.
Well, I think we can end withone more, and this is a term
that you actually have, I guessadvice, or it's this idea of a
tip for a better tomorrow.
So what is the word and what isthe advice you have?
Naoko (43:08):
Yeah, the word is zanshin .
Zanshin is a very fundamentalaspect in Japanese martial arts
Again, martial arts.
Sorry, but actually it's mybest seller, zanshin.
I love zanshin because manymartial artists have asked me to
(43:32):
make this calligraphy for them,so it's a very important word.
Basically, zanshin meanslingering mind.
Lingering mind if you do, forexample, kendo competition,
zanshin is required to score apoint.
(43:52):
Zanshin is not a stroke, it'snot an even stroke, it's just a
mindset, but it's actuallyrequired to score a point.
You must be wondering what itis and how that works.
Let me explain it simply Evenafter you strike your opponent
(44:15):
Pan, you need to stay alert incase he strikes back.
You need to leave your mindthere.
Mind behind, lingering mindthat's zanshin.
I can explain it in a morefamiliar way.
You can see that in many movies,when the bad guy is defeated,
(44:40):
then the good guy celebrates yay, I did it again.
And all of a sudden the bad guywasn't dead and he's trapped.
Yes, yes.
That's the example of lack ofzanshin.
Okay.
Nick (45:00):
Yeah, that happens often in movies.
Naoko (45:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it happens often in your life,
right?
Even in your life it happens,yeah, yeah, often In your life,
right?
Nick (45:08):
Even in your life it happens.
Yeah, you actually reminded me.
There was this.
There's like a whole series ofYouTube videos where it's
celebrating too early and youhave these athletes who
celebrate too early and thenthey lose.
So they're running and theythink they've won and so they
(45:29):
slow down and put their hands upand then someone quickly passes
them and they lose.
Or another one was thisgoalkeeper and it was a penalty
kick and he blocked it and kindof went off and he walked off
really cool and then the ballbounced but it had all this
backspin and it slowly enteredthe goal line and you can see
(45:55):
he's showing off and then hesuddenly turns around.
He's like, oh no, um.
So his ego yeah, it's like thezanshin is like the opposite to
the ego, where your ego switchesthe focus to you.
I'm great, I've won.
Something bad happens.
Naoko (46:19):
So yeah, so Zanshin is a concept which has been at the
core of Japanese martial artsfor centuries.
People who want to know moredetails of Zanshin please read
my LinkedIn post again.
I explained it in a moreprofound way there, I guess.
Nick (46:43):
Yes, we'll link to LinkedIn and we might even quote
some of your LinkedIn posts inthe show notes.
But yeah, I mean Zanshin alsokind of reminds me of how
Japanese are very like they dothings properly and do things
diligently, and do things tocompletion, yeah, so I'm not
(47:07):
surprised.
Maybe this concept drives thosebehaviours of chanto suru to do
things properly, or evenkodowari like Mm kodowari.
Yeah, do things with great care.
So I'm now curious much of yourkanji or calligraphy, I should
(47:30):
say relates to Budo.
Have you ever done any martialarts yourself?
Naoko (47:37):
Actually, no.
Well, I tried to do karate whenI was a junior high school
student, karate when I was ajunior high school student, but
(47:57):
I did it for one year, but oncea week, so I didn't get better,
oh, once a week.
That's probably not enough,right, right?
(48:21):
So, um, yes, for for myself Iprefer to do dance ballet, uh,
latin dancing or social dancing,something like that, so it's
not my preference.
Budo is not my preference, butI love the philosophy.
Nick (48:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Naoko (48:31):
And I love war period novels and yeah, so just
philosophy, not doing.
Nick (48:43):
Yeah, but there's I mean there's so much to learn behind
all these philosophical uniqueconcepts about, I guess, the,
the way of the warrior, or, youknow, the, the mind, the, the
internal battle is usually thehardest one, yes, the one we
have with our mind and ourperception of self.
(49:03):
And so japanese seem to be veryaware of all of this, I guess,
as in buddh, yeah, seem tounderstand this, and I guess now
we're realising all of this andwe're validating it all with,
you know, modern research.
Yeah, it's fascinating howthese were concepts discussed
(49:26):
hundreds of years ago and putinto practice through the
practice of martial art and alsofine arts or calligraphy.
It also reminds me of, likeshokunin, like the mind of the
craftsperson, and how they candedicate their life to, you know
, making pottery, yeah, yeah,yeah, their mind and, yeah,
(49:48):
focus.
So it's very, very fascinatingwhat a wonderful culture you
have.
So now I'm curious iscalligraphy a source of ikigai,
or is this study of buddhism andyou know as not buddhism so
much, but I guess the way ofBuddha, is that a source of
(50:11):
ikigai for you to study Buddhaor brush calligraphy?
Naoko (50:16):
For me yeah yeah, for you .
I should say yes here, right.
Nick (50:26):
Just say what's true.
I mean, it could be somethingelse.
Naoko (50:29):
yeah, Just say what's true, I mean it could be
something else.
Yeah, well, I like what I doand I love this Japanese
philosophy and culture, oldtraditions, I love it.
But talking about ikigai, Inever thought about it, honestly
(50:52):
, because I even didn't know.
The ikigai concept is veryfamous abroad.
I even didn't know.
So for me, what is my ikigai?
Yeah, but anyway, I want topeople to know this Japanese
(51:19):
wisdom.
So I want to work what I do,focusing more, more and more,
and it's really difficult to sayWon't you be big?
Nick (51:33):
More involved.
Naoko (51:35):
Not big, but Reach more people.
Nick (51:40):
Yeah, it sounds like reach more people yes, yes, yes, yeah
, yeah.
Naoko (51:45):
So it could be my ikigai right now.
Nick (51:50):
Yeah, I mean.
Another word that might beappropriate is shimekan.
Do you have a sense of purposewith your work?
Shimekan?
Yes, Very tied strongly toikigai for some people.
Yeah, I mean, this is thefascinating aspect of ikigai.
(52:10):
It is this popular concept, andmany Japanese, yeah, don't even
think about it.
Naoko (52:17):
Right.
Nick (52:17):
And when you ask them they're a bit surprised Like
what?
Like how do you know this word?
Or why are you asking?
And then there's thesedifferent perspectives.
Someone like Ken Ichiro Magiwill say it's a spectrum of all
these small things in your lifeyour morning coffee walking,
your dog going for a run.
(52:37):
Or some people might say, oh no, it's more than that, it's your
life purpose.
So it's always interesting toget honest reactions from my
guests.
Yeah, it's always fascinating.
Naoko (52:58):
Actually, because I know the interviews happening today.
Last weekend I talked to myfather and asked him what is
your ikigai?
And he said oh, this isdifficult, I don't know.
Nick (53:19):
Really.
Yeah, it's funny, I've had thesame reaction sometimes and I go
oh, maybe my family, I'm notsure Kind of answers to a
Japanese person I asked said, oh, it's camping, camping with my
friends, and it was reallyspecific and I thought, ah, so
(53:41):
there was that social aspect andyou know, getting away from
life and having a good time.
So, yeah, it's probablysomething we should think about
more often.
You know what gives our lifemeaning and purpose and
fulfillment we're usually toostressed and busy, but thank you
(54:05):
, naoko, for all the wisdomyou've shared today, and I'm
sure our listeners would like tolearn more about you.
Thank you, naoko, for all thewisdom you've shared today, and
I'm sure our listeners wouldlike to learn more about you.
So how can people find youonline.
Naoko (54:16):
Please visit my website or LinkedIn.
I'm very active on LinkedIn.
Nick (54:27):
I have Instagram, but not that much, so we'll link to your
website and that is fumicom.
So that's f-u-h-m-icom, andpeople can see your wonderful
calligraphy work.
And, yeah, if you want to learnabout Japanese wisdom, go to
LinkedIn and you can check outall of Naoko's posts.
(54:51):
So that's Naoko Mikami.
And, yeah, learn all theseamazing words like I'm learning.
So thank you.
So, yes, thank you very muchfor your time today, naoko,
thank you.
Naoko (55:10):
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
thank you.
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