Where is your place to cultivate meaningful connections and personal growth?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Tomoe Ueyama and Gloria Tam to explore how fourth spaces can help people build authentic relationships and embark on a journey of self-discovery.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There is also another layer of hidden meaning mean
product.
So mint originates from mentorsand interns, so reflecting the
belief that adults should remainlifelong interns, maintaining a
fresh mindset and curiosity,while also serving as mentors,
(00:27):
sharing their wisdom withyounger generations.
This embodies our commitment tolifelong learning and
intergenerational growth.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guests today on this episodeof the Ikigai podcast are Tomoe
Ueyama and Gloria Tam, thefounders of Project Mint.
Project Mint helps mid to latecareer professionals redefine
(01:13):
their paths by discovering theirpersonal purpose and ikigai,
embracing sustainable careers.
Their approach has guided 150alumni with a 70% successful
transitioning rate, helpingthese people transition to more
(01:33):
meaningful roles.
Their adult education model,featured in the New York Times,
has gained international acclaim.
So welcome to the podcast,tomoa and Gloria.
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Thank you, Nick.
Thank you so much, Nick, forhaving us.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
My pleasure.
So let's start off with a自己紹介,a self-introduction from both of
you.
So maybe we'll start with you,Tomoe, yeah sure.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So, hi everyone.
I am Tomoe Ueyama, one of theco-founders of Project Mint, and
Project Mint is a communityaimed at empowering mature
professionals to redefine theircareers and lives through
finding purpose and ikigai, andI am passionate about
(02:23):
reimagining leadership andfostering purpose in an asian
society like japan, wheredemographic shifts pose unique
challenges and opportunities.
And just a quick description ofproject mint, uh, because I'm
sure quite a lot of people don'tknow about project mint.
So so, yeah, so Project MIN isa learning community where
(02:47):
adults of all ages canrediscover their purpose and
transition into more fulfillingroles in society.
It provides a space for meaningmaking through intentional
gatherings and open-endeddialogues.
We encourage explorations oflife's big questions without
(03:08):
pressure for definitive answers,while fostering authentic
connections and sharedexperience.
And yeah, also, I met Gloriawhen I was in my master's
program in the United States andshe helped me a lot to develop
this purpose-driven leadershipdevelopment course.
(03:31):
So, yeah, let's hear fromGloria as well.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Fantastic.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Sure?
Hi everyone.
This is Gloria Gloria Tam.
I am originally from Hong Kong,from Asia, and now based in the
US.
So with Tomoe we co-foundedProject Mint to help
professionals find their purposein Ikigai, and it all started
in Japan, but we're also tryingto evangelize this right to
become a more global movement.
In addition to Project Mint, Ialso lead the course design
(03:59):
function at Harvard University'sDivision of Continual Education
, so my team there supports 300plus faculty at Harvard UCE in
creating engaging onlinelearning for thousands of
lifelong learners.
A little bit about me over thelast two decades I have taken on
leadership roles with differentinstitutions like Boston
(04:19):
Consulting Group or with WorldHealth Organization and really
helping them to build theirlifelong learning unit and
programs.
So beyond that, I also loveteaching.
Once I was a college professor.
My favorite topics areleadership, especially on
purpose-driven leadership, onsystems thinking and managing
complexity.
So my passion is really to helppeople unlock their potential
(04:42):
and help them find meaning intheir journeys.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Wow.
So that's amazing, so veryinspiring to hear from both of
you and these themes of lifelonglearning and finding purpose
and meaningful conversation andauthentic connections.
So these are the things I loveand I strongly relate them all
to Ikigai.
(05:07):
So it's a real joy to have youon the podcast and I'll share
how I stumbled upon actuallyTomoe.
Through LinkedIn, I saw a postabout an article you wrote,
tomoe for Forbes and it wasessentially about this concept
(05:29):
of fourth place and I guess thetitle in English would be Beyond
the Third Place, what is theNew Space Known as the Fourth
Place?
And when I read that articleafter some help with ChatGPT
translating it, I thought, oh,this article seems to be
(05:49):
touching on the concept ofibasho, which is a sub-theory of
Ikigai.
It's like the social aspect ofIkigai.
So congratulations on yourarticle.
Do you want to touch on themeanings of third and fourth
place?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, sure, nick, and thank you so much for reaching
out to me after reading myarticle on Forbes.
So the concept of the thirdplace to begin with was
introduced in 1989 by Americansociologist Ray Odenberg in his
(06:26):
book the Great Good Place.
He describes the third place asa vital space for democracy and
civic engagement.
Third place is, as you know, asocial environment outside of
home, so home is the first placeand work is the second place.
So third place can be placessuch as cafes, parks or
(06:52):
community centers where peoplegather, connect and engage in
informal interactions, fosteringa sense of community and
belonging.
And the fourth place goesdeeper than third place it is a
collective space that enablesmeaning making and self-renewal
(07:17):
or self-transformation.
So the fourth place is notsimply a comfortable space like
the third place.
The fourth place is not simplya comfortable space like the
third place.
It is actually a challengingenvironment that embraces
uncertainty and diverseperspectives, encouraging deep
thought and personal growth.
(07:47):
The concept of the fourth placedoes not have a universally
recognized origin or a singleperson who coined it.
Unlike the third place coinedby Rain Oldenburg, it has
emerged as a modern adaption ofor extension of the third place,
focusing on deeper connection,self-renewal and collective
meaning making.
There is a community called sfcommons, based in san francisco,
mostly with generation z peopleforming this kind of community
(08:15):
and drawing on the activitiesand insights of those pioneering
this concept.
The characteristics of thefourth place can be summarized
in seven key points.
So number one is a place formeaning making.
Two is intentional programs.
Three is a space ofnon-judgmental empathy.
(08:38):
Four is a place without answers.
Five is respecting individualchoices.
Six is an environment withoutcharismatic leaders and, lastly,
seven is sustainableconnections.
So the fourth place representsa collective shift towards
(09:00):
spaces that foster deep personaland communal exploration,
allowing individuals to find newways of connecting with
themselves and others.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, I love this idea.
I really like that idea of anenvironment without charismatic
leaders and that there can bethis place without that.
That I guess the whole makesthe leadership, or the whole
make the meaning of the place.
And, yeah, also the idea itchallenges people perhaps to
(09:35):
become themselves and they canexplore questions and really
cool concepts.
So I definitely startedthinking, oh, this is very much
related to Ibexol, a place formeaning making.
So do you want to offer someexamples, because it's probably
slightly different to Ibexol aswell.
(09:57):
So, yeah, would you like tooffer some examples of a fourth
place?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Sure, yeah, so I think Project Mint, our
organization, naturally embodiesthe concept of a fourth place
by fostering a community whereindividuals can explore their
identities, aspirations and lifetransitions beyond traditional
(10:25):
work and social structures.
For example, project Mintprovides a space for individuals
, particularly mid-career andlate-career professionals, to
redefine their purpose andexplore what truly matters to
them.
And explore what truly mattersto them.
Through guided discussions andshared experiences, members
(10:51):
engage in self-reflection andcraft new narratives for their
personal and professional lives.
And Project MING community isbuilt on trust and psychological
safety, allowing participantsto share uncertainties and
personal challenges without fearof judgment.
By normalizing careerreinvention and midlife
(11:13):
transitions, it creates aninclusive environment where
everyone feels seen and heard.
Rather than prescribing fixedsolutions or career paths,
project Mint encouragesexploration and curiosity.
Participants are not givenone-size-fits-all advice, but
(11:34):
are instead guided to discovertheir own insights through
dialogue and reflection.
So, beyond one-time programs,project Mint cultivates
long-term relationships amongmembers as well.
So our alumni remain connectedthrough ongoing discussions,
events and collaborations,ensuring that the sense of
(11:57):
belonging and support extendswell beyond the initial
engagement.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Love it.
I think I want to become amember of Mint, so maybe I will
if and when I move back to Japan, but it does very much sound
like an Ibasho.
So what do you think?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, thank you, nick , and you're anytime welcome to
join our community whenever youcome to Japan.
And that's a great question.
I think Ibasho and fourth placeknow that you know explain the
meaning of Ibasho.
So Ibasho means I means being,and basho means place.
(12:53):
So the meaning of Ibasho issimply just, you know, place for
being.
So important aspect of Ibasho,in my view, is that it has two
dimensions.
One is in Ibasho, people havefeeling included through
(13:15):
contribution.
So people often find a sense ofbelonging in Ibasho by actively
doing something for others,whether through a specific role
or responsibility within thecommunity.
And second is feeding included,simply by being so.
At the same time, ibasho allowspeople to feel accepted without
(13:40):
the need to contribute.
Just by being present at theirauthentic selves in the
community, they are acknowledgedand valued by those around them
.
So Ibasho can be very broad,but our fourth place has
intentional elements.
So it's a space formeaning-making, non-judgmental
(14:01):
empathy and respectingindividual choices and it
provides sustainable connections.
But it's more like.
Fourth place is a guided, youknow, facilitation.
So it has to be intentional.
But Ibasho, on the other hand,can include all these aspects,
(14:24):
but it doesn't necessarily haveto be intentional or structured.
In Japan, ibasho is simply aplace where you feel safe,
accepted and like you belong,even if there's no deep
conversation or purpose behindit.
For example, a teenager hangingout with friends on the street,
(14:46):
just being together withoutsaying much, and they keep
coming back to the same place,this can still feel like an
ibasho.
It's more about the feeling ofbelonging rather than the
process of meaning making.
So, for example, like um, quitea lot of people find, you know,
(15:06):
difficult in finding their ownibasho in their first place,
second place, for example.
You know quite a lot ofteenagers suffering from finding
their sense of belonging atschool, for example.
But fourth place is a place forthem to reflect themselves and
(15:29):
how they want to engage withfriends and how they want to
create relationships with theirfamilies or friends.
So fourth place really allowthem to reflect and think about
how they want to be at theirfirst place or second place.
(15:51):
So, you know, they can, youknow, refresh their minds and go
back to their original placesfirst place, second place and
they can be better communicatorsor relationship builder at
their own places.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, echo with everything Tomoe just said and
just want to add a few morethoughts.
First is on the definition.
So I personally don't speakJapanese, actually, but by
reading Ibasho the word Ibashothrough the kanji right, the
kanji characters, it may giveadditional meaning and insight.
So the first character inCantonese, which is my mother
(16:33):
tongue, is goi.
So goi means just to live rightor to be in a place right.
And the second set ofcharacters is changso, which
means location, right.
So at its core, ibasho, I think,refers to that.
It can be one place, it can bemultiple places where you may be
situated in or you choose tosituate yourself in right, but
when you are there you reallyfeel you are quote-unquote in
(16:57):
place right, that sense ofbelonging that Tomoe mentioned.
So, yeah, when someone is, youknow, seeking for his or her or
their Ibasho, you can see thatsort of the place, the location
where they get that belongingsense.
The concept of the fourth place, I believe, goes beyond this.
(17:18):
It is that intentional space,that space that is curated for
personal growth, for deepconnection, for renewal.
You may feel challenged in aspace or in this space, but you
have unlimited sort ofnonjudgmental empathy right from
the community.
You may have a lot ofunanswered questions through
(17:40):
your self-introspection andgroup exploration, but then
you're also empowered with a lotof autonomy and choices.
So that's what the fourth placemeans to us.
The second thing I want tohighlight about Ibasho is
actually a very powerful conceptfor multi-generation
exploration.
So, for example, the World Bankrecently they published an
(18:03):
Ibasho toolkit that you candownload, and there are a lot of
showcase examples from Japan,from Nepal, from the Philippines
, where Ibasho was intentionallyfostered right.
So in Japan, from Nepal, fromthe Philippines, where Basho was
intentionally fostered right.
So in Japan, for example, afterthe 2011 tsunami, the elderly
community in Ofunato establishedthat Basho Cafe, which is a
(18:25):
community hub featuring thingslike a vegetable garden, a
farmer's market, a ramen shop, adaycare, an evacuation center
right.
So this space actually fostersthat kind of intergenerational
activities.
So, for example, we have peopleteaching traditional crafts to
the younger generations.
Another great example comes fromthe Philippines.
(18:47):
This is way back in 2013, whenthe Typhoon Yolanda hits.
After that, the community, theelderly took the lead in
rebuilding the community, butnot just the infrastructure, but
also the social connections.
So they started like a mobilecafe, they started a farm again,
they started a recyclingprogram, and it is these
initiatives that really, youknow, it's not just providing
(19:10):
services to the community, butthey're empowering the community
, the people there, to takeownership and cultivate that
sense of purpose.
So, as you can see, ibasho ismore than just like a location
or a place in time.
It really very beautifullyreflects on that spirit of
Ikigai, as you mentioned earlier, right Like that meaning and
purpose emerge throughconnection and social
(19:32):
contribution.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, it's a fascinating word.
Yet it's so interesting becauseit just used to mean
whereabouts, as you guys definedit.
It's from the verb iru, toexist or to be, and bash or
place, and compounded meanswhereabouts.
But now it's become apsychological concept and it's
(19:56):
in research papers and I thinkit was applied to psychology
with some of Japan's problemswith students not wanting to go
to school because they obviouslyfelt out of place.
And then I think it's also tiedto the hikikomori problem,
where people are withdrawingthemselves from society because
(20:20):
either, yeah, the pressure ofwork and university or school is
too much, so they withdrawthemselves from society and yeah
, now it's sort of become thisconcept where, oh where can you
be yourself and feel socialconnection, feel accepted, have
a sense of belonging andsomewhat related to fourth place
(20:43):
.
But, as you guys noted, fourthplace seems to come with more
intention, maybe moregoal-focused, where ibasho can
be that or it doesn't have to bethat.
So, yeah, I love these wordsikigai, i-bashō.
They've changed my life, andit's also great to meet people
(21:05):
who are intentionally usingthese words in their business,
like you guys.
So we'll touch on your businessname later and how that
includes Ikigai.
But, moving on, you bothbelieve Japan is a prime
location for purpose-drivencareer shifts and
intergenerational collaboration.
(21:27):
So do you want to touch on whyyou believe that?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, sure, so I go first.
So Japan has one of the world'smost rapidly aging populations
and with nearly 30 percent ofits citizens are over 65, and
this demographic shiftchallenges traditional,
traditional career paths thatassume retirement at a fixed age
(21:55):
.
As life expectancy increases,more individuals seek meaningful
second and third careers,making Japan a natural testing
ground for new ways of workingthat integrate experience,
wisdom and personal fulfillment.
With one of the longest lifeexpectancies in the world, japan
(22:20):
is redefining what it means toage with purpose.
By pioneering career modelsthat embrace lifelong learning,
intergenerational mentorship andpurpose-driven work, japan can
set a global example forsocieties facing similar
demographic shifts.
(22:40):
This is what I believe.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I see what about you, Gloria?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, just like Tomoe mentioned, I personally am very
proud.
I'm sure Tomoe is also aproject being that sort of the
fourth place.
Right, let's support peoplecoming from literally like all
walks of life.
Right, our community, people ofall ages or background.
We set out to help mid to latestage career professionals to
(23:06):
transform.
But really we, we get.
We get people from from fromall sorts of background, um.
So, for example, you'll findrio, um, she is a young artist
and through men, she combinedher passion in graphic design,
um into a career of visual, likeofficial scribe, like a global
(23:28):
facilitator for workshops andevents.
Um.
You also meet taru, who's verydifferent.
He was a biologist in training,he was an executive in the
pharmaceutical industry in japanand now, through mint, he's
working on more buildingcommunities in life sciences and
innovation.
(23:48):
So you find passionateprofessionals like these, right,
and some are early careerprofessionals, some are
mid-career, late stage, some areentrepreneurs.
We also have a fair amount offellows who are near or past
retirement.
So there's really no ageboundary and our community is
really thriving with that kindof diversity.
(24:10):
And then back to your point,nick, I think you mentioned
intergenerational focus, butalso the purpose-driven career
exploration.
So for that latter piece.
We worked very hard to createthat space, that safe space for
our fellows to explore theirpersonal purpose.
We would talk about concept ofpurpose and the Kigai from
(24:36):
really influential thoughtleaders like Nick Craig, which
is the author of Leading fromPurpose, bill Burnett, on
Designing your Lifekits likeintrospection toolkits,
self-awareness toolkits, to helpour fellows understand some of
those recurring themes rightthat are happening in their life
.
(25:04):
For example, we would help ourfellows explore their what we
call crucible moments, which arechallenging or transformative
experience in their life thatmight have defined and
reinforced who they are.
We would also help themvisualize their future through a
set of, you know, exercises.
What Bill Burnett or Dan Evanwould say is Odyssey planning.
(25:24):
So yeah, all these exercises,all these exploration, is to
help that transformation and webelieve that is key.
With the little statistics, Ithink out of the survey, 100% of
the fellows who surveyed thinkthey found their purpose and the
program had created atransformation in them.
This can be their career, itcan be their life or just
(25:45):
leadership transformation, butthat is still about mission
going to Project Mint.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Wow, it certainly sounds like you're helping a lot
of people from different, Iguess, walks of life or people
from different generations, sothat must be exciting, and I
guess that leads us to yourbusiness name.
What does the Mint in ProjectMint actually stand for?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
the MINT in Project MINT actually stand for?
Sure, I'll share a little bitand then Tomoe will chime in.
So MINT is M-I-N-T right.
Mint in Project MINT it standsfor M meaning Ikigai and Network
and T Transform, which prettymuch captures everything Tomoe
and I said earlier about theessence of community we're
building.
But beyond the acronym, ourmission is really reflected in,
(26:37):
you know, the green color yousee in our website, our logo,
and the word mint itselfsymbolizes renewal and growth.
So that is that fourth space,again, like that self-renewal,
that fresh start, that, you know, that breath of new life into
each our each, each of ourjourneys.
And that's the the kind ofspace we want to create for this
(26:59):
community.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
what do you think yeah, so there is also another
layer of hidden meaning meanproduct.
Uh, so mint originate frommentors and interns, so
reflecting the belief thatadults should remain lifelong
interns, maintaining a freshmindset and curiosity, while
(27:27):
also serving as mentors, sharingtheir wisdom with younger
generations.
Sharing their wisdom withyounger generations.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
This embodies our commitment to lifelong learning
and intergenerational growth.
Yeah, I love this idea that youhave all these experienced
people with knowledge from theirprofession, but also their own
life experience, and they cancertainly be very much useful to
society and guiding youngergenerations.
It reminds me of a proverb aswell, I think it's something
like people begin calligraphy at80, suggesting that you can
(28:06):
always learn something new, evenwhen you're old.
So is that the right one?
It might have been 50.
I think they updated it to 80for Japan's aging population.
So I love this idea of, yeah,anyone at any age can contribute
(28:26):
and they can start again.
They can start a new career ordo something and contribute and
help each other.
So that's, yeah, reallyinspiring.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
I love that support to each other, and sometimes it
doesn't have to be a new career.
We have a story of a seniorexecutive.
I think he worked in more onthe HR practice of a big company
and through Mint he met anentrepreneur who is a young
person, but you know, obviouslythe ceo, co-founder of the
(29:00):
company, and um, the mix of thechemistry becomes that, um, this
more senior person becomes theadvisor of the this young ceo,
and is that kind ofcross-generation pollination.
Everyone is learning, everyoneis reinventing in this kind of
(29:20):
new collaboration.
But that's the beauty about it,right?
It doesn't need to be a careertransformation.
It can be what we call like aside gig or like a moonlighting
experience as well.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Love it.
How did you guys meet and whatinspired you to work together to
create Project Mint?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
So I met Gloria through a school that I took
part in for my master's programand it's called Minerva
University and Minerva is basedin San Francisco and it's a very
interesting university becauseit has a really cutting edge,
(30:03):
brand new educational methodwith cutting edge technology and
science based pedagogy, and Iwas really interested in
studying at Minerva University.
And I was really interested instudying at Minerva University.
So when I completed my master'sthere, gloria was working as a
(30:45):
faculty in the professionallearning team, I believe,
thinking about starting newbusiness in Japan to empower
mature adults with education.
But I wasn't sure what I wantedto do.
So I initially reached out tothe Minerva's faculty members to
consult or like, how can Istart my own business and maybe
make partnership with Minerva orsomething?
And the person introduced me toGloria because Gloria was in
(31:08):
charge of the professionallearning team at Minerva
university at that time.
And as, as I discuss withGloria what is a problem in
Japan and what kind of solutionsI really want to tackle, and
you know, as we go deep, we kindof realized that, oh, having
(31:32):
fulfillment at work, havingsense of purpose or ikigai, and
empower that with mature adultsin Japan is really crucial and
that's something that we reallywant to tackle yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
That's such an ambitious for you to have that
vision and goal.
You know really ambitious, likeyou're really wanting to
transform a country.
You know so really inspiring.
So I guess you were prettyinspired by that gloria for sure
.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I remember the first conversation was already wow,
right, like.
This is like how it looks likewhen someone is, you know,
evangelizing her purpose, shereally kind of infect people
around her as well.
So when I first met Tomoe, itis that sort of sense of purpose
she has and the very acutechallenge that she sees.
(32:23):
Right, she's telling me thesestories of, again, mid-career
professionals.
At that time it was our focus,especially in Japan, but I'm
sure not limited to Japan.
Right, was our focus,especially in Japan, but I'm
sure not limited to Japan.
Right?
Some of them seem to haveeverything set out on paper,
right?
A great job, a loving family,two kids, a stable life, you
(32:45):
know, good financial security,all that.
But yet something is missing,right?
A lot of times these peoplefelt stuck, may not have that
sense of fulfillment in the work, in the life.
So that's why we try to designthe learning journey and we
focus on purpose-drivenleadership.
But beyond purpose and Ikigai,we also have a curriculum to
(33:08):
equip them on leadershiptransformation as well.
So there are things likedecision-making systems,
thinking, bias, mitigation,emotional intelligence, all that
kind of traditional leadershipwisdom to help our fellows
having a toolkit to navigatecomplexity in this world.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
There you go, so really, yeah, really ambitious
project, and you've succeededtoo, so that's something to
celebrate.
And we have touched on purposeand ikigai, so would you like to
share how you define theseterms and what's the difference
(33:49):
between them?
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, sure, for me, for purpose, I always love to
use the author's, nick Craig's,definition, and that's also what
we created into our projectMean Curriculum as well.
What we believe as purpose isthat unique and authentic
essence that is presentthroughout your life.
So that is that common threadthat gives meaning to you.
(34:11):
So it can be related to yourjob or work, but it doesn't have
to be so.
For example, for me, right, thecommon thread in my life is
solving puzzles.
I always say, like, I lovesolving puzzles and it can come
from my sort of quote-unquotetalent, right, I love problem
solving, I have the ability.
But it also comes from myexperience, what I went through,
my passion, right.
(34:33):
So I derive energy when I'msolving problems.
So those are that kind of, youknow, threat of purpose.
And that doesn't change when Ichange a job, right, let's say,
I move from a managementconsultant in my early careers
to now doing course design orbecoming a mother, right, that
(34:54):
common thread still stays thesame at home, at work, when I
work with friends and when I'mfriends, when I work with, you
know, my co-workers, et cetera.
So I also think purpose is moreoutward facing, something we
always encourage our fellows toshare your purpose or evangelize
(35:17):
your purpose once you getclarity on it, be it through
your relationships, your broadercontributions to the society.
So that's purpose for us.
For me, ikigai, on the otherhand, is more dynamic for me and
more multifaceted.
It can be like a moment in time, like I get ikigai when I'm
(35:39):
walking in this nature place.
It can be a physical experience, it can be a state of mind, it
can even be an item, an object.
So, unlike purpose, which isoften more about impact, and
like a life mission, I thinkIkigai can be more personal and
(36:02):
inward facing.
It doesn't need to haveanything about serving others or
like grand meaning or you knowthat kind of thing.
It's simply what brings you joyand fulfillment, the reason for
you to to be living, to bewaking up.
So that's sort of my, myperspectives into purpose versus
(36:23):
ikigai nice, what about you?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
tomoe purpose and ikigai yeah, so for me, so,
gloria, really.
So Gloria really explainedreally well.
But I would say purpose is arealization that our actions,
whether through work,relationships or daily
activities like doing you know,contribute to something beyond
(36:52):
ourselves, and it emerges whenwe recognize that what we do
benefits others, organizationsor society at large.
A sense of purpose is not justabout what we do, but why we do
it, the deeper motivation thatmakes our work and life
meaningful.
Yeah, as work-life longevityextends, we are no longer
(37:18):
working just for financialstability, but for mental
well-being and sustainableengagement.
So a strong sense of purposekeeps us motivated, resilient
and fulfilled over the long term, and it helps us navigate
career transitions, avoidburnout and find deeper
(37:39):
satisfaction in yourprofessional and personal lives.
So ikigai is, as Gloria said, soit's more about being, you know
, it doesn't have to besomething that contributes to
(38:00):
society or anything.
It can be self-pleasure, um, itcan be a really simple daily
joy, uh, that only serves tooneself, yeah, within self, and
also it can also develop as youdevelop relationships with
someone.
(38:20):
So it can be some joy, simplejoy, shared with someone, like
family, friends, or it can, uh,it can broaden to communities or
societies or organizations.
So in a way, ikigai may becomelike a means to feel sense of
(38:50):
purpose in a way, but ikigaihave more broader sense, in a
way that you know it can also beself-pleasure or something very
simple.
Yeah, this is my interpretation, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
It does make sense and even Ken Mogi touches on
that.
You can find ikigai in thesmall, in sensory pleasure or,
you know, it can be the pursuitof a life-defining goal, but
more often than not for Japaneseit seems to be things like
hobbies or relationships orthese small things, and they're
(39:32):
not, you know, not reallyambitious things, but yeah, it's
subjective and deeply personal.
So I guess we all get to decidewhat Ikigai is and I guess it's
also very much tied to feeling,like feeling that life is worth
living and that includespurpose.
(39:54):
So they're definitely relatable.
And yeah, Miyako Kamiya, themother of Ikigai, she touches on
like sense of purpose and how astrong sense of purpose is
likely to make you feel Ikigaimost intensely, and she didn't
really say it was a requirement.
(40:16):
She does have these otherIkigai needs, but almost like a
sense of purpose was like theicing on the Ikigai cake.
If you really have this strongsense of purpose in your life,
whether it's in relationships orwork, you'll feel Ikigai
intensely.
So they're really interestingquestions like oh, what is
purpose?
What is Ikigai?
(40:36):
So thank you for yourperspectives and it seems like
you're really helping peoplefind both purpose and Ikigai
with the work you do throughMint.
So let's have a chat about theimpact you're having, as you
mentioned earlier, of those whomyou work with.
Their goals and aspirations inlife become clearer, and that's
(40:57):
100%.
And then I also know that,after completing your program,
70% actually pursue side jobs orbecome independent or they
change their career.
So that's amazing.
So would you like to share someexamples from your alumni where
people you've worked with havefound this new professional
(41:19):
purpose?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, sure.
So it's been very inspiring toreally see firsthand the
transformation of ourparticipants.
Yeah, so I'm going to introducemaybe two or three examples of
our alumni transformation.
So first let me introduceTakahiro-san.
(41:45):
So I think he was actuallyfeatured by the New York Times
in 2022, when he just finishedhis course at Project Mint.
When he just finished hiscourse at Project Mint, he spent
(42:05):
30 years working in theadvertising industry in Japan as
a corporate employee.
Through our program, hediscovered his personal purpose,
which is to respect people whowant to live with honesty,
respect people who want to livewith honesty.
And after quitting his companywhen he hit 50 years old, he
transitioned into a freelancelife coach, focusing on
(42:30):
supporting retirees and thoseseeking new second career
opportunities.
By connecting with diverselike-minded people, takahiro
gained the confidence toactualize his purpose and he
still continues to learncoaching and facilitation and
(42:52):
feeling fulfilled by belongingto multiple communities.
So I think that he definitelyrediscovered his personal
purpose and really transitionedto a purposeful career path.
And there is also another lady.
(43:13):
Her name is Maya.
She was a housewife for 30years before joining our program
.
In her generation, it's prettycommon to beiscover her own way,
(43:40):
you know, because her kidsbecame independent already.
Her kids graduated from collegeand she wanted to think about
what future she will have in herown life.
So through our program, shediscovered her own personal
(44:03):
purpose, which is to find thediamond in dialogue, and Maya
now creates spaces for parentsand children to engage in
meaningful dialogues, fosteringmutual understanding within
families.
She has also explored workingin a kindergarten and continues
(44:27):
to learn how to facilitate theseimportant conversations,
helping young families withyoung children in her local
community.
So I would say she found herown personal purpose and perhaps
connecting with families, kidsin her local communities, may be
(44:50):
her ikigai, I think, which is avery beautiful example of
reinventing, you know, her lifeafter feeding empty nests?
Yeah, so these are the realstories from our alumni.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, they're very inspiring and it highlights how
you're helping these people finda new role in their life.
People find a new role in theirlife, a new meaningful role
(45:29):
that impacts others, obviouslyin ways that are aligned to
their values, and you know whothey want to become.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
So that's I love.
That, wasn't the diamond indialogue?
Is that how you phrased?
That is Maya's personal purpose, because she found her joy in
engaging in dialogues with theother participants at Project
Mint.
So, you know, having dialogueswith open heart and curiosity
(45:53):
really made her, you know,realize, oh, this is her
personal purpose.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
And yes, you mentioned also her own ikigai,
so she kind of aligned the two.
So that's inspiring.
So, on that theme, what aboutyou, tomoe?
What is your personal ikigai?
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, thank you for asking no-transcript, perhaps,
(46:42):
especially with the alumni ofProject Mint.
I really enjoy interacting withthem.
Also, I really enjoy creating asafe space where anyone can be
their authentic selves, sharetheir struggles, even negative
feelings, and, just you know,having a genuine support, yeah,
(47:06):
and support one another withoutjudgment.
I think, creating this kind ofspace and just you know,
enjoying the genuine connection,even though all of our
participants are from differentbackgrounds and different
experiences and differentgenerations.
But you know, we are allnavigating life together and you
(47:29):
know, just simply acknowledgingthe difference and just getting
to know each other in profoundways and being present for each
other, listening and growingtogether.
I think, yeah, just creatingthis space is what gives my work
and life deep meaning.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
I can relate.
I do think Ikigai is very muchtied to social world and, yeah,
for me Ikigai seems to come tolife when it's shared or when
you meaningfully connect withothers and make new friends,
make new relationships.
So I guess that's why we weregiven ears and mouths to talk
(48:15):
and have meaningful discussions.
So what about you, Gloria?
What's your ikigai?
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Sure, I guess I'll go back to the earlier discussion
about purpose and ikigai.
So my purpose, I feel like, ismore sort of well-defined, at
least from my perspective.
So I always say, okay, it's tosolve puzzles right.
But when I say puzzles, it's tosolve puzzles right.
But, uh, when I say puzzles,it's really like thinking about
problems, right, what are thechallenges?
(48:44):
What are the problems?
Um, especially complex problems, like wicked problems in the
society, um, so the problemsthat need collective wisdom to
resolve.
So I feel like that is mypurpose and that is why I work
on education and learning.
That is why I am interested in,you know, creating this project
(49:04):
, mint Community, to help people, you know, solve the puzzles
Right and also getting thatcollective wisdom in
transformation.
When it comes to Ikigai, I feellike I'm still more on a journey
of exploring, to be honest,right.
So, um, for me, I think themoments I really feel closest to
(49:27):
ikigai, like this is why am Ihere?
You know, that kind of momentsare, um, when I'm in a flow,
when I'm in a flow state.
And for those who are lessfamiliar with the concept, flow
is that feeling of like reallybeing immersed, focused in an
activity and like deeply engagedand really get a strong, deep
(49:51):
sense of enjoyment.
And that's the stage where youfeel challenged.
Right, you feel challenged andyou can stretch your ability.
You know that kind of state andfor those who talk about Ikigai
, you study that, like you mighthave also heard Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi.
He's a scientist whopopularized the term.
But the term flow state is alsodeeply connected to Ikigai.
(50:16):
So for me, this is when I feellike I'm working or tackling
those big questions in educationand innovation, those, like you
know, complex puzzles.
Um, I often find myself likeworking really late, like
suddenly I stay up, uh, allnight, 3 am4 am.
I'm scrolling, like looking atarticles and things like that,
completely absorbed andenergized in the process.
(50:38):
And and that's when I feel like, ah, maybe that's why I exist,
that's my true meaning, the, thepurpose, and, um, yeah, so when
people say, oh, ikigai is thereason you wake up in the
morning, for me is the reason Istay up at night.
But I guess it's the same thing.
Yeah, but really I'm still inthat life journey of
(51:00):
experiencing and embracingIkigai and I'm still learning
what is my Ikigai?
Speaker 2 (51:07):
That's a brilliant way to frame it.
It's the reason why I stay lateat night to continue what
you're working on.
I might steal that from you,but, interestingly, one of the
first papers I found on Ikigaiwas related to the flow state
and referenced the flow statescale.
(51:28):
It was basically saying, whenyou experience the flow state,
you in turn experience Ikigai,which then adds to your sense of
coherence related to thatactivity.
And the paper's quitecomplicated, but basically, yeah
, you feel ikigai when you're inflow and that makes life
(51:49):
meaningful.
And you seem to have theawareness of that after the flow
state, because you're enjoyingthe flow state so much it's
really afterwards you realize,oh, that session or that sport,
whatever it is, makes you think,oh, that was great, life is
good.
So, yeah, flow can certainlymake you feel ikigai, or flow
(52:16):
could be ikigai for sure.
So, yeah, I love to get in flow.
I need to get into a bit moreoften but I also really agree
with.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
We are like that theme of connection and like how
flow is a very introspective,like you know, like for myself
the inner feeling, but how, howthen it translates into also
connection, right, the community.
That that to me is also likehow I continue to um, reinforce
(52:48):
the, the ikigai and and thosedifferent aspects of ikigai is
is really important as well.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Yeah, we can even have like social flow where
we're engaged in, I guess, thediamond of dialogue, where we,
both people or members, feellike they're in flow within a
conversation or a group.
And maybe that's what eBashalland Fourth Place provide, that
social flow which is soimportant, especially in this
(53:17):
world of this chaotic world ofsocial media and, um, so much of
our communication now is donethrough devices yeah, I would
say, you know, just feeling thesense of oneness, like itai kan,
is also another aspect ofikigai.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
I think, yeah, just you know, feeling the genuine
connection with others, you know, oh, like we are really
understanding each other on adeeper level and that really
creates the sense of harmony.
And yeah, I think this is what,what is something unique about
japanese culture as well yeah,harmony, unity.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
I learned to take.
I learned Itaikan from GordonMatthews and he made this really
interesting observation that inJapan there is this desire for
Itaikan, like unity, connection,and that's obviously valued and
kind of driven into culture,and then in the West there is
this desire for self-expressionand self-actualization.
(54:23):
But he did note when heinterviewed all these Japanese
and Americans, some Japanesesecretly kind of wanted the
freedom to self-actualize andthen some Americans also kind of
secretly said, ah, I wish I wasmore connected to people.
So I think we want both.
We want this freedom toself-actualize, but we also want
(54:44):
to feel like we're part ofsomething, either a community or
maybe something bigger thanourselves.
So it's so fascinating howIkigai is subjective and how we
can define it from all thesedifferent angles.
There was one word I wanted tothrow at you guys, because you
are very passionate about yourwork, and there is the word
(55:05):
hatarakigai.
So hataraku, the verb to work,and then hatarakigai would be
obviously work that's worthdoing, work that's meaningful.
So is it fair to say that youboth experience Hatarakigai via
Project Mint?
Speaker 3 (55:21):
For me?
Yeah, definitely, I would thinkso.
Let's say for me, whenever wehave these workshops where the
fellows come and, you know,share their personal purpose and
it might be officially throughlike collage or like it can be a
personal statement, kind ofstatement, kind of um, every
(55:42):
time when I'm in that part ofthe workshop for a new cohort of
our project, mean umparticipants.
I I always feel that sense ofum adorakigai, um.
So.
So, yeah, definitely, yes, aresounding yes, um tomoe for you
, yes definitely hatarakigai.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
So for me, hatatarakigai.
So for me, hatarakigai is moreabout feeling a sense of kind of
accomplishment yeah, so likewhat I do really contributes to
a progress of our business.
So this is when I feelHatarakigai and I feel the most
(56:17):
Hatarak guy.
When our alumni makes progress,for example reinventing their
careers or making even a smallstep toward their purposeful
career path, that's when I feelHataraki guy and so proud of
them.
And also I enjoy learningthrough working at Project MEAN,
(56:41):
like my own personal growth.
Yeah, like learning about newconcepts of self-awareness, new
concepts of decision-making andeffective communication and
dialogues.
Learning about this fancy newknowledge really make me feel
(57:04):
even more curious and contributeto my self-improvement and
that's also when I feelHatarakigai.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
I do hope that at some stage in the future Project
Mint and Ikigai Tribe willcollaborate on something and
then we can share someHatarakigai and Ikigai together
and a sense of purpose.
So many things to share, butreally inspired by what you guys
do and wanting to learn more.
(57:36):
So hopefully we can all meetthe three of us.
How often do you go to Japan,gloria?
Speaker 3 (57:45):
Tomoe and I were talking about a potential trip
in maybe summer May.
You know that time frame.
So, yeah, I'm hoping to, yeah,meet Tomoe and you together in
Japan, and I guess that will bethe midpoint right, that will be
the midway.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Yeah, well, I'll definitely be there in May.
So if you can get there in May,we can catch up and have a chat
in person.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
Yeah, and I just want to.
It may or may not be in thepodcast, but I just want to
comment on what you sharedearlier about the cultural
perspectives of ikigai.
And people start from differentstarting point and you know,
japanese may have a more senseof the unity already, but, like,
really yearning for, like well,it's my personal purpose, right
(58:31):
, self-actualization versus likein a lot of western culture, um
, we actually want, like, peopleare starting to learn more how
how to get ikigai throughcommunity, right, that social
connection, um, but beyondoneself, I think that's a really
interesting concept and usbeing this like cross um global
(58:55):
group of you know someone inmelbourne, someone is in japan
and I have asian background, but, being in us, I think that
different starting point andbringing the different aspects
of ikigai together forindividuals is really powerful.
I remember tomoe and Iinterviewed a researcher on part
of a fellow, he studies theconcept of regret in life, but
(59:22):
through that conversation hesaid, like his perspective of
ikigai is the following is morelike collection of gemstones,
right, like.
So there are different ways ofyou know, experiencing ikigai.
It can be through that moment,it can be through that flow
state.
It can be through that flowstate.
It can be through thatconnection, it can be through
that self-actualization, thatpurpose theme.
And yeah, it is like I reallylike his metaphor of gemstones
(59:46):
in life and you can collectgemstones in various different
ways and your culture may showyou predominantly one way, but I
guess for us it's like how canwe evangelize the many different
paths and ways so people canexperience more ikigai in their
life?
Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
So that's what's fascinating.
When you hear these differentinterpretations or perspectives
on ikigai, it's like, ah, I'velearned something new so that's
a nice way to describe it acollection of life's gemstones.
And even the idea of regret,like I was thinking about this
the other day, like why do weregret something and we struggle
(01:00:26):
to let it go?
And I kind of realized perhapsit's because it's a loss of
potential icky guy.
You had this potential icky guybut for whatever reason you
didn't take the opportunity, oryou're too lazy, or whatever
happened.
And then it's only after yourealize I lost this opportunity.
Now I regret it and you realize, ah, it was a loss of ikigai
(01:00:50):
yes, next time when we gettogether, we'll talk also on
regret.
Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I believe a lot of these.
And also ikigai does it have tobe related to joy or, you know,
fulfillment, or doesn't ittranscend beyond right, like so?
Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
there, there are these concepts as well, and I'm
curious to hear more yes, thisconversation could go on and on,
but we should finish, so thankyou both, uh, gloria and Tomoe,
very much for your time.
It was good to connect with youboth today.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Thank you so much for having us, Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
My pleasure, so we'll say bye for now, but hopefully
our next conversation will be inperson.
Awesome, yes, please, okay, byefor now.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Bye for now.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Thank you everyone.
Thanks, See you.
There is also another layer of hidden meaning mean
product.
So mint originates from mentorsand interns, so reflecting the
belief that adults should remainlifelong interns, maintaining a
fresh mindset and curiosity,while also serving as mentors,
(00:27):
sharing their wisdom withyounger generations.
This embodies our commitment tolifelong learning and
intergenerational growth.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guests today on this episodeof the Ikigai podcast are Tomoe
Ueyama and Gloria Tam, thefounders of Project Mint.
Project Mint helps mid to latecareer professionals redefine
(01:13):
their paths by discovering theirpersonal purpose and ikigai,
embracing sustainable careers.
Their approach has guided 150alumni with a 70% successful
transitioning rate, helpingthese people transition to more
(01:33):
meaningful roles.
Their adult education model,featured in the New York Times,
has gained international acclaim.
So welcome to the podcast,tomoa and Gloria.
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Thank you, Nick.
Thank you so much, Nick, forhaving us.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
My pleasure.
So let's start off with a自己紹介,a self-introduction from both of
you.
So maybe we'll start with you,Tomoe, yeah sure.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So, hi everyone.
I am Tomoe Ueyama, one of theco-founders of Project Mint, and
Project Mint is a communityaimed at empowering mature
professionals to redefine theircareers and lives through
finding purpose and ikigai, andI am passionate about
(02:23):
reimagining leadership andfostering purpose in an asian
society like japan, wheredemographic shifts pose unique
challenges and opportunities.
And just a quick description ofproject mint, uh, because I'm
sure quite a lot of people don'tknow about project mint.
So so, yeah, so Project MIN isa learning community where
(02:47):
adults of all ages canrediscover their purpose and
transition into more fulfillingroles in society.
It provides a space for meaningmaking through intentional
gatherings and open-endeddialogues.
We encourage explorations oflife's big questions without
(03:08):
pressure for definitive answers,while fostering authentic
connections and sharedexperience.
And yeah, also, I met Gloriawhen I was in my master's
program in the United States andshe helped me a lot to develop
this purpose-driven leadershipdevelopment course.
(03:31):
So, yeah, let's hear fromGloria as well.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Fantastic.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Sure?
Hi everyone.
This is Gloria Gloria Tam.
I am originally from Hong Kong,from Asia, and now based in the
US.
So with Tomoe we co-foundedProject Mint to help
professionals find their purposein Ikigai, and it all started
in Japan, but we're also tryingto evangelize this right to
become a more global movement.
In addition to Project Mint, Ialso lead the course design
(03:59):
function at Harvard University'sDivision of Continual Education
, so my team there supports 300plus faculty at Harvard UCE in
creating engaging onlinelearning for thousands of
lifelong learners.
A little bit about me over thelast two decades I have taken on
leadership roles with differentinstitutions like Boston
(04:19):
Consulting Group or with WorldHealth Organization and really
helping them to build theirlifelong learning unit and
programs.
So beyond that, I also loveteaching.
Once I was a college professor.
My favorite topics areleadership, especially on
purpose-driven leadership, onsystems thinking and managing
complexity.
So my passion is really to helppeople unlock their potential
(04:42):
and help them find meaning intheir journeys.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Wow.
So that's amazing, so veryinspiring to hear from both of
you and these themes of lifelonglearning and finding purpose
and meaningful conversation andauthentic connections.
So these are the things I loveand I strongly relate them all
to Ikigai.
(05:07):
So it's a real joy to have youon the podcast and I'll share
how I stumbled upon actuallyTomoe.
Through LinkedIn, I saw a postabout an article you wrote,
tomoe for Forbes and it wasessentially about this concept
(05:29):
of fourth place and I guess thetitle in English would be Beyond
the Third Place, what is theNew Space Known as the Fourth
Place?
And when I read that articleafter some help with ChatGPT
translating it, I thought, oh,this article seems to be
(05:49):
touching on the concept ofibasho, which is a sub-theory of
Ikigai.
It's like the social aspect ofIkigai.
So congratulations on yourarticle.
Do you want to touch on themeanings of third and fourth
place?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, sure, nick, and thank you so much for reaching
out to me after reading myarticle on Forbes.
So the concept of the thirdplace to begin with was
introduced in 1989 by Americansociologist Ray Odenberg in his
(06:26):
book the Great Good Place.
He describes the third place asa vital space for democracy and
civic engagement.
Third place is, as you know, asocial environment outside of
home, so home is the first placeand work is the second place.
So third place can be placessuch as cafes, parks or
(06:52):
community centers where peoplegather, connect and engage in
informal interactions, fosteringa sense of community and
belonging.
And the fourth place goesdeeper than third place it is a
collective space that enablesmeaning making and self-renewal
(07:17):
or self-transformation.
So the fourth place is notsimply a comfortable space like
the third place.
The fourth place is not simplya comfortable space like the
third place.
It is actually a challengingenvironment that embraces
uncertainty and diverseperspectives, encouraging deep
thought and personal growth.
(07:47):
The concept of the fourth placedoes not have a universally
recognized origin or a singleperson who coined it.
Unlike the third place coinedby Rain Oldenburg, it has
emerged as a modern adaption ofor extension of the third place,
focusing on deeper connection,self-renewal and collective
meaning making.
There is a community called sfcommons, based in san francisco,
mostly with generation z peopleforming this kind of community
(08:15):
and drawing on the activitiesand insights of those pioneering
this concept.
The characteristics of thefourth place can be summarized
in seven key points.
So number one is a place formeaning making.
Two is intentional programs.
Three is a space ofnon-judgmental empathy.
(08:38):
Four is a place without answers.
Five is respecting individualchoices.
Six is an environment withoutcharismatic leaders and, lastly,
seven is sustainableconnections.
So the fourth place representsa collective shift towards
(09:00):
spaces that foster deep personaland communal exploration,
allowing individuals to find newways of connecting with
themselves and others.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, I love this idea.
I really like that idea of anenvironment without charismatic
leaders and that there can bethis place without that.
That I guess the whole makesthe leadership, or the whole
make the meaning of the place.
And, yeah, also the idea itchallenges people perhaps to
(09:35):
become themselves and they canexplore questions and really
cool concepts.
So I definitely startedthinking, oh, this is very much
related to Ibexol, a place formeaning making.
So do you want to offer someexamples, because it's probably
slightly different to Ibexol aswell.
(09:57):
So, yeah, would you like tooffer some examples of a fourth
place?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Sure, yeah, so I think Project Mint, our
organization, naturally embodiesthe concept of a fourth place
by fostering a community whereindividuals can explore their
identities, aspirations and lifetransitions beyond traditional
(10:25):
work and social structures.
For example, project Mintprovides a space for individuals
, particularly mid-career andlate-career professionals, to
redefine their purpose andexplore what truly matters to
them.
And explore what truly mattersto them.
Through guided discussions andshared experiences, members
(10:51):
engage in self-reflection andcraft new narratives for their
personal and professional lives.
And Project MING community isbuilt on trust and psychological
safety, allowing participantsto share uncertainties and
personal challenges without fearof judgment.
By normalizing careerreinvention and midlife
(11:13):
transitions, it creates aninclusive environment where
everyone feels seen and heard.
Rather than prescribing fixedsolutions or career paths,
project Mint encouragesexploration and curiosity.
Participants are not givenone-size-fits-all advice, but
(11:34):
are instead guided to discovertheir own insights through
dialogue and reflection.
So, beyond one-time programs,project Mint cultivates
long-term relationships amongmembers as well.
So our alumni remain connectedthrough ongoing discussions,
events and collaborations,ensuring that the sense of
(11:57):
belonging and support extendswell beyond the initial
engagement.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Love it.
I think I want to become amember of Mint, so maybe I will
if and when I move back to Japan, but it does very much sound
like an Ibasho.
So what do you think?
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, thank you, nick , and you're anytime welcome to
join our community whenever youcome to Japan.
And that's a great question.
I think Ibasho and fourth placeknow that you know explain the
meaning of Ibasho.
So Ibasho means I means being,and basho means place.
(12:53):
So the meaning of Ibasho issimply just, you know, place for
being.
So important aspect of Ibasho,in my view, is that it has two
dimensions.
One is in Ibasho, people havefeeling included through
(13:15):
contribution.
So people often find a sense ofbelonging in Ibasho by actively
doing something for others,whether through a specific role
or responsibility within thecommunity.
And second is feeding included,simply by being so.
At the same time, ibasho allowspeople to feel accepted without
(13:40):
the need to contribute.
Just by being present at theirauthentic selves in the
community, they are acknowledgedand valued by those around them
.
So Ibasho can be very broad,but our fourth place has
intentional elements.
So it's a space formeaning-making, non-judgmental
(14:01):
empathy and respectingindividual choices and it
provides sustainable connections.
But it's more like.
Fourth place is a guided, youknow, facilitation.
So it has to be intentional.
But Ibasho, on the other hand,can include all these aspects,
(14:24):
but it doesn't necessarily haveto be intentional or structured.
In Japan, ibasho is simply aplace where you feel safe,
accepted and like you belong,even if there's no deep
conversation or purpose behindit.
For example, a teenager hangingout with friends on the street,
(14:46):
just being together withoutsaying much, and they keep
coming back to the same place,this can still feel like an
ibasho.
It's more about the feeling ofbelonging rather than the
process of meaning making.
So, for example, like um, quitea lot of people find, you know,
(15:06):
difficult in finding their ownibasho in their first place,
second place, for example.
You know quite a lot ofteenagers suffering from finding
their sense of belonging atschool, for example.
But fourth place is a place forthem to reflect themselves and
(15:29):
how they want to engage withfriends and how they want to
create relationships with theirfamilies or friends.
So fourth place really allowthem to reflect and think about
how they want to be at theirfirst place or second place.
(15:51):
So, you know, they can, youknow, refresh their minds and go
back to their original placesfirst place, second place and
they can be better communicatorsor relationship builder at
their own places.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, echo with everything Tomoe just said and
just want to add a few morethoughts.
First is on the definition.
So I personally don't speakJapanese, actually, but by
reading Ibasho the word Ibashothrough the kanji right, the
kanji characters, it may giveadditional meaning and insight.
So the first character inCantonese, which is my mother
(16:33):
tongue, is goi.
So goi means just to live rightor to be in a place right.
And the second set ofcharacters is changso, which
means location, right.
So at its core, ibasho, I think,refers to that.
It can be one place, it can bemultiple places where you may be
situated in or you choose tosituate yourself in right, but
when you are there you reallyfeel you are quote-unquote in
(16:57):
place right, that sense ofbelonging that Tomoe mentioned.
So, yeah, when someone is, youknow, seeking for his or her or
their Ibasho, you can see thatsort of the place, the location
where they get that belongingsense.
The concept of the fourth place, I believe, goes beyond this.
(17:18):
It is that intentional space,that space that is curated for
personal growth, for deepconnection, for renewal.
You may feel challenged in aspace or in this space, but you
have unlimited sort ofnonjudgmental empathy right from
the community.
You may have a lot ofunanswered questions through
(17:40):
your self-introspection andgroup exploration, but then
you're also empowered with a lotof autonomy and choices.
So that's what the fourth placemeans to us.
The second thing I want tohighlight about Ibasho is
actually a very powerful conceptfor multi-generation
exploration.
So, for example, the World Bankrecently they published an
(18:03):
Ibasho toolkit that you candownload, and there are a lot of
showcase examples from Japan,from Nepal, from the Philippines
, where Ibasho was intentionallyfostered right.
So in Japan, from Nepal, fromthe Philippines, where Basho was
intentionally fostered right.
So in Japan, for example, afterthe 2011 tsunami, the elderly
community in Ofunato establishedthat Basho Cafe, which is a
(18:25):
community hub featuring thingslike a vegetable garden, a
farmer's market, a ramen shop, adaycare, an evacuation center
right.
So this space actually fostersthat kind of intergenerational
activities.
So, for example, we have peopleteaching traditional crafts to
the younger generations.
Another great example comes fromthe Philippines.
(18:47):
This is way back in 2013, whenthe Typhoon Yolanda hits.
After that, the community, theelderly took the lead in
rebuilding the community, butnot just the infrastructure, but
also the social connections.
So they started like a mobilecafe, they started a farm again,
they started a recyclingprogram, and it is these
initiatives that really, youknow, it's not just providing
(19:10):
services to the community, butthey're empowering the community
, the people there, to takeownership and cultivate that
sense of purpose.
So, as you can see, ibasho ismore than just like a location
or a place in time.
It really very beautifullyreflects on that spirit of
Ikigai, as you mentioned earlier, right Like that meaning and
purpose emerge throughconnection and social
(19:32):
contribution.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, it's a fascinating word.
Yet it's so interesting becauseit just used to mean
whereabouts, as you guys definedit.
It's from the verb iru, toexist or to be, and bash or
place, and compounded meanswhereabouts.
But now it's become apsychological concept and it's
(19:56):
in research papers and I thinkit was applied to psychology
with some of Japan's problemswith students not wanting to go
to school because they obviouslyfelt out of place.
And then I think it's also tiedto the hikikomori problem,
where people are withdrawingthemselves from society because
(20:20):
either, yeah, the pressure ofwork and university or school is
too much, so they withdrawthemselves from society and yeah
, now it's sort of become thisconcept where, oh where can you
be yourself and feel socialconnection, feel accepted, have
a sense of belonging andsomewhat related to fourth place
(20:43):
.
But, as you guys noted, fourthplace seems to come with more
intention, maybe moregoal-focused, where ibasho can
be that or it doesn't have to bethat.
So, yeah, I love these wordsikigai, i-bashō.
They've changed my life, andit's also great to meet people
(21:05):
who are intentionally usingthese words in their business,
like you guys.
So we'll touch on your businessname later and how that
includes Ikigai.
But, moving on, you bothbelieve Japan is a prime
location for purpose-drivencareer shifts and
intergenerational collaboration.
(21:27):
So do you want to touch on whyyou believe that?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, sure, so I go first.
So Japan has one of the world'smost rapidly aging populations
and with nearly 30 percent ofits citizens are over 65, and
this demographic shiftchallenges traditional,
traditional career paths thatassume retirement at a fixed age
(21:55):
.
As life expectancy increases,more individuals seek meaningful
second and third careers,making Japan a natural testing
ground for new ways of workingthat integrate experience,
wisdom and personal fulfillment.
With one of the longest lifeexpectancies in the world, japan
(22:20):
is redefining what it means toage with purpose.
By pioneering career modelsthat embrace lifelong learning,
intergenerational mentorship andpurpose-driven work, japan can
set a global example forsocieties facing similar
demographic shifts.
(22:40):
This is what I believe.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I see what about you, Gloria?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, just like Tomoe mentioned, I personally am very
proud.
I'm sure Tomoe is also aproject being that sort of the
fourth place.
Right, let's support peoplecoming from literally like all
walks of life.
Right, our community, people ofall ages or background.
We set out to help mid to latestage career professionals to
(23:06):
transform.
But really we, we get.
We get people from from fromall sorts of background, um.
So, for example, you'll findrio, um, she is a young artist
and through men, she combinedher passion in graphic design,
um into a career of visual, likeofficial scribe, like a global
(23:28):
facilitator for workshops andevents.
Um.
You also meet taru, who's verydifferent.
He was a biologist in training,he was an executive in the
pharmaceutical industry in japanand now, through mint, he's
working on more buildingcommunities in life sciences and
innovation.
(23:48):
So you find passionateprofessionals like these, right,
and some are early careerprofessionals, some are
mid-career, late stage, some areentrepreneurs.
We also have a fair amount offellows who are near or past
retirement.
So there's really no ageboundary and our community is
really thriving with that kindof diversity.
(24:10):
And then back to your point,nick, I think you mentioned
intergenerational focus, butalso the purpose-driven career
exploration.
So for that latter piece.
We worked very hard to createthat space, that safe space for
our fellows to explore theirpersonal purpose.
We would talk about concept ofpurpose and the Kigai from
(24:36):
really influential thoughtleaders like Nick Craig, which
is the author of Leading fromPurpose, bill Burnett, on
Designing your Lifekits likeintrospection toolkits,
self-awareness toolkits, to helpour fellows understand some of
those recurring themes rightthat are happening in their life
.
(25:04):
For example, we would help ourfellows explore their what we
call crucible moments, which arechallenging or transformative
experience in their life thatmight have defined and
reinforced who they are.
We would also help themvisualize their future through a
set of, you know, exercises.
What Bill Burnett or Dan Evanwould say is Odyssey planning.
(25:24):
So yeah, all these exercises,all these exploration, is to
help that transformation and webelieve that is key.
With the little statistics, Ithink out of the survey, 100% of
the fellows who surveyed thinkthey found their purpose and the
program had created atransformation in them.
This can be their career, itcan be their life or just
(25:45):
leadership transformation, butthat is still about mission
going to Project Mint.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Wow, it certainly sounds like you're helping a lot
of people from different, Iguess, walks of life or people
from different generations, sothat must be exciting, and I
guess that leads us to yourbusiness name.
What does the Mint in ProjectMint actually stand for?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
the MINT in Project MINT actually stand for?
Sure, I'll share a little bitand then Tomoe will chime in.
So MINT is M-I-N-T right.
Mint in Project MINT it standsfor M meaning Ikigai and Network
and T Transform, which prettymuch captures everything Tomoe
and I said earlier about theessence of community we're
building.
But beyond the acronym, ourmission is really reflected in,
(26:37):
you know, the green color yousee in our website, our logo,
and the word mint itselfsymbolizes renewal and growth.
So that is that fourth space,again, like that self-renewal,
that fresh start, that, you know, that breath of new life into
each our each, each of ourjourneys.
And that's the the kind ofspace we want to create for this
(26:59):
community.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
what do you think yeah, so there is also another
layer of hidden meaning meanproduct.
Uh, so mint originate frommentors and interns, so
reflecting the belief thatadults should remain lifelong
interns, maintaining a freshmindset and curiosity, while
(27:27):
also serving as mentors, sharingtheir wisdom with younger
generations.
Sharing their wisdom withyounger generations.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
This embodies our commitment to lifelong learning
and intergenerational growth.
Yeah, I love this idea that youhave all these experienced
people with knowledge from theirprofession, but also their own
life experience, and they cancertainly be very much useful to
society and guiding youngergenerations.
It reminds me of a proverb aswell, I think it's something
like people begin calligraphy at80, suggesting that you can
(28:06):
always learn something new, evenwhen you're old.
So is that the right one?
It might have been 50.
I think they updated it to 80for Japan's aging population.
So I love this idea of, yeah,anyone at any age can contribute
(28:26):
and they can start again.
They can start a new career ordo something and contribute and
help each other.
So that's, yeah, reallyinspiring.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
I love that support to each other, and sometimes it
doesn't have to be a new career.
We have a story of a seniorexecutive.
I think he worked in more onthe HR practice of a big company
and through Mint he met anentrepreneur who is a young
person, but you know, obviouslythe ceo, co-founder of the
(29:00):
company, and um, the mix of thechemistry becomes that, um, this
more senior person becomes theadvisor of the this young ceo,
and is that kind ofcross-generation pollination.
Everyone is learning, everyoneis reinventing in this kind of
(29:20):
new collaboration.
But that's the beauty about it,right?
It doesn't need to be a careertransformation.
It can be what we call like aside gig or like a moonlighting
experience as well.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Love it.
How did you guys meet and whatinspired you to work together to
create Project Mint?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
So I met Gloria through a school that I took
part in for my master's programand it's called Minerva
University and Minerva is basedin San Francisco and it's a very
interesting university becauseit has a really cutting edge,
(30:03):
brand new educational methodwith cutting edge technology and
science based pedagogy, and Iwas really interested in
studying at Minerva University.
And I was really interested instudying at Minerva University.
So when I completed my master'sthere, gloria was working as a
(30:45):
faculty in the professionallearning team, I believe,
thinking about starting newbusiness in Japan to empower
mature adults with education.
But I wasn't sure what I wantedto do.
So I initially reached out tothe Minerva's faculty members to
consult or like, how can Istart my own business and maybe
make partnership with Minerva orsomething?
And the person introduced me toGloria because Gloria was in
(31:08):
charge of the professionallearning team at Minerva
university at that time.
And as, as I discuss withGloria what is a problem in
Japan and what kind of solutionsI really want to tackle, and
you know, as we go deep, we kindof realized that, oh, having
(31:32):
fulfillment at work, havingsense of purpose or ikigai, and
empower that with mature adultsin Japan is really crucial and
that's something that we reallywant to tackle yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
That's such an ambitious for you to have that
vision and goal.
You know really ambitious, likeyou're really wanting to
transform a country.
You know so really inspiring.
So I guess you were prettyinspired by that gloria for sure
.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
I remember the first conversation was already wow,
right, like.
This is like how it looks likewhen someone is, you know,
evangelizing her purpose, shereally kind of infect people
around her as well.
So when I first met Tomoe, itis that sort of sense of purpose
she has and the very acutechallenge that she sees.
(32:23):
Right, she's telling me thesestories of, again, mid-career
professionals.
At that time it was our focus,especially in Japan, but I'm
sure not limited to Japan.
Right, was our focus,especially in Japan, but I'm
sure not limited to Japan.
Right?
Some of them seem to haveeverything set out on paper,
right?
A great job, a loving family,two kids, a stable life, you
(32:45):
know, good financial security,all that.
But yet something is missing,right?
A lot of times these peoplefelt stuck, may not have that
sense of fulfillment in the work, in the life.
So that's why we try to designthe learning journey and we
focus on purpose-drivenleadership.
But beyond purpose and Ikigai,we also have a curriculum to
(33:08):
equip them on leadershiptransformation as well.
So there are things likedecision-making systems,
thinking, bias, mitigation,emotional intelligence, all that
kind of traditional leadershipwisdom to help our fellows
having a toolkit to navigatecomplexity in this world.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
There you go, so really, yeah, really ambitious
project, and you've succeededtoo, so that's something to
celebrate.
And we have touched on purposeand ikigai, so would you like to
share how you define theseterms and what's the difference
(33:49):
between them?
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, sure, for me, for purpose, I always love to
use the author's, nick Craig's,definition, and that's also what
we created into our projectMean Curriculum as well.
What we believe as purpose isthat unique and authentic
essence that is presentthroughout your life.
So that is that common threadthat gives meaning to you.
(34:11):
So it can be related to yourjob or work, but it doesn't have
to be so.
For example, for me, right, thecommon thread in my life is
solving puzzles.
I always say, like, I lovesolving puzzles and it can come
from my sort of quote-unquotetalent, right, I love problem
solving, I have the ability.
But it also comes from myexperience, what I went through,
my passion, right.
(34:33):
So I derive energy when I'msolving problems.
So those are that kind of, youknow, threat of purpose.
And that doesn't change when Ichange a job, right, let's say,
I move from a managementconsultant in my early careers
to now doing course design orbecoming a mother, right, that
(34:54):
common thread still stays thesame at home, at work, when I
work with friends and when I'mfriends, when I work with, you
know, my co-workers, et cetera.
So I also think purpose is moreoutward facing, something we
always encourage our fellows toshare your purpose or evangelize
(35:17):
your purpose once you getclarity on it, be it through
your relationships, your broadercontributions to the society.
So that's purpose for us.
For me, ikigai, on the otherhand, is more dynamic for me and
more multifaceted.
It can be like a moment in time, like I get ikigai when I'm
(35:39):
walking in this nature place.
It can be a physical experience, it can be a state of mind, it
can even be an item, an object.
So, unlike purpose, which isoften more about impact, and
like a life mission, I thinkIkigai can be more personal and
(36:02):
inward facing.
It doesn't need to haveanything about serving others or
like grand meaning or you knowthat kind of thing.
It's simply what brings you joyand fulfillment, the reason for
you to to be living, to bewaking up.
So that's sort of my, myperspectives into purpose versus
(36:23):
ikigai nice, what about you?
Speaker 1 (36:27):
tomoe purpose and ikigai yeah, so for me, so,
gloria, really.
So Gloria really explainedreally well.
But I would say purpose is arealization that our actions,
whether through work,relationships or daily
activities like doing you know,contribute to something beyond
(36:52):
ourselves, and it emerges whenwe recognize that what we do
benefits others, organizationsor society at large.
A sense of purpose is not justabout what we do, but why we do
it, the deeper motivation thatmakes our work and life
meaningful.
Yeah, as work-life longevityextends, we are no longer
(37:18):
working just for financialstability, but for mental
well-being and sustainableengagement.
So a strong sense of purposekeeps us motivated, resilient
and fulfilled over the long term, and it helps us navigate
career transitions, avoidburnout and find deeper
(37:39):
satisfaction in yourprofessional and personal lives.
So ikigai is, as Gloria said, soit's more about being, you know
, it doesn't have to besomething that contributes to
(38:00):
society or anything.
It can be self-pleasure, um, itcan be a really simple daily
joy, uh, that only serves tooneself, yeah, within self, and
also it can also develop as youdevelop relationships with
someone.
(38:20):
So it can be some joy, simplejoy, shared with someone, like
family, friends, or it can, uh,it can broaden to communities or
societies or organizations.
So in a way, ikigai may becomelike a means to feel sense of
(38:50):
purpose in a way, but ikigaihave more broader sense, in a
way that you know it can also beself-pleasure or something very
simple.
Yeah, this is my interpretation, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
It does make sense and even Ken Mogi touches on
that.
You can find ikigai in thesmall, in sensory pleasure or,
you know, it can be the pursuitof a life-defining goal, but
more often than not for Japaneseit seems to be things like
hobbies or relationships orthese small things, and they're
(39:32):
not, you know, not reallyambitious things, but yeah, it's
subjective and deeply personal.
So I guess we all get to decidewhat Ikigai is and I guess it's
also very much tied to feeling,like feeling that life is worth
living and that includespurpose.
(39:54):
So they're definitely relatable.
And yeah, Miyako Kamiya, themother of Ikigai, she touches on
like sense of purpose and how astrong sense of purpose is
likely to make you feel Ikigaimost intensely, and she didn't
really say it was a requirement.
(40:16):
She does have these otherIkigai needs, but almost like a
sense of purpose was like theicing on the Ikigai cake.
If you really have this strongsense of purpose in your life,
whether it's in relationships orwork, you'll feel Ikigai
intensely.
So they're really interestingquestions like oh, what is
purpose?
What is Ikigai?
(40:36):
So thank you for yourperspectives and it seems like
you're really helping peoplefind both purpose and Ikigai
with the work you do throughMint.
So let's have a chat about theimpact you're having, as you
mentioned earlier, of those whomyou work with.
Their goals and aspirations inlife become clearer, and that's
(40:57):
100%.
And then I also know that,after completing your program,
70% actually pursue side jobs orbecome independent or they
change their career.
So that's amazing.
So would you like to share someexamples from your alumni where
people you've worked with havefound this new professional
(41:19):
purpose?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Yeah, sure.
So it's been very inspiring toreally see firsthand the
transformation of ourparticipants.
Yeah, so I'm going to introducemaybe two or three examples of
our alumni transformation.
So first let me introduceTakahiro-san.
(41:45):
So I think he was actuallyfeatured by the New York Times
in 2022, when he just finishedhis course at Project Mint.
When he just finished hiscourse at Project Mint, he spent
(42:05):
30 years working in theadvertising industry in Japan as
a corporate employee.
Through our program, hediscovered his personal purpose,
which is to respect people whowant to live with honesty,
respect people who want to livewith honesty.
And after quitting his companywhen he hit 50 years old, he
transitioned into a freelancelife coach, focusing on
(42:30):
supporting retirees and thoseseeking new second career
opportunities.
By connecting with diverselike-minded people, takahiro
gained the confidence toactualize his purpose and he
still continues to learncoaching and facilitation and
(42:52):
feeling fulfilled by belongingto multiple communities.
So I think that he definitelyrediscovered his personal
purpose and really transitionedto a purposeful career path.
And there is also another lady.
(43:13):
Her name is Maya.
She was a housewife for 30years before joining our program
.
In her generation, it's prettycommon to beiscover her own way,
(43:40):
you know, because her kidsbecame independent already.
Her kids graduated from collegeand she wanted to think about
what future she will have in herown life.
So through our program, shediscovered her own personal
(44:03):
purpose, which is to find thediamond in dialogue, and Maya
now creates spaces for parentsand children to engage in
meaningful dialogues, fosteringmutual understanding within
families.
She has also explored workingin a kindergarten and continues
(44:27):
to learn how to facilitate theseimportant conversations,
helping young families withyoung children in her local
community.
So I would say she found herown personal purpose and perhaps
connecting with families, kidsin her local communities, may be
(44:50):
her ikigai, I think, which is avery beautiful example of
reinventing, you know, her lifeafter feeding empty nests?
Yeah, so these are the realstories from our alumni.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, they're very inspiring and it highlights how
you're helping these people finda new role in their life.
People find a new role in theirlife, a new meaningful role
(45:29):
that impacts others, obviouslyin ways that are aligned to
their values, and you know whothey want to become.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
So that's I love.
That, wasn't the diamond indialogue?
Is that how you phrased?
That is Maya's personal purpose, because she found her joy in
engaging in dialogues with theother participants at Project
Mint.
So, you know, having dialogueswith open heart and curiosity
(45:53):
really made her, you know,realize, oh, this is her
personal purpose.
Speaker 2 (45:59):
And yes, you mentioned also her own ikigai,
so she kind of aligned the two.
So that's inspiring.
So, on that theme, what aboutyou, tomoe?
What is your personal ikigai?
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, thank you for asking no-transcript, perhaps,
(46:42):
especially with the alumni ofProject Mint.
I really enjoy interacting withthem.
Also, I really enjoy creating asafe space where anyone can be
their authentic selves, sharetheir struggles, even negative
feelings, and, just you know,having a genuine support, yeah,
(47:06):
and support one another withoutjudgment.
I think, creating this kind ofspace and just you know,
enjoying the genuine connection,even though all of our
participants are from differentbackgrounds and different
experiences and differentgenerations.
But you know, we are allnavigating life together and you
(47:29):
know, just simply acknowledgingthe difference and just getting
to know each other in profoundways and being present for each
other, listening and growingtogether.
I think, yeah, just creatingthis space is what gives my work
and life deep meaning.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
I can relate.
I do think Ikigai is very muchtied to social world and, yeah,
for me Ikigai seems to come tolife when it's shared or when
you meaningfully connect withothers and make new friends,
make new relationships.
So I guess that's why we weregiven ears and mouths to talk
(48:15):
and have meaningful discussions.
So what about you, Gloria?
What's your ikigai?
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Sure, I guess I'll go back to the earlier discussion
about purpose and ikigai.
So my purpose, I feel like, ismore sort of well-defined, at
least from my perspective.
So I always say, okay, it's tosolve puzzles right.
But when I say puzzles, it's tosolve puzzles right.
But, uh, when I say puzzles,it's really like thinking about
problems, right, what are thechallenges?
(48:44):
What are the problems?
Um, especially complex problems, like wicked problems in the
society, um, so the problemsthat need collective wisdom to
resolve.
So I feel like that is mypurpose and that is why I work
on education and learning.
That is why I am interested in,you know, creating this project
(49:04):
, mint Community, to help people, you know, solve the puzzles
Right and also getting thatcollective wisdom in
transformation.
When it comes to Ikigai, I feellike I'm still more on a journey
of exploring, to be honest,right.
So, um, for me, I think themoments I really feel closest to
(49:27):
ikigai, like this is why am Ihere?
You know, that kind of momentsare, um, when I'm in a flow,
when I'm in a flow state.
And for those who are lessfamiliar with the concept, flow
is that feeling of like reallybeing immersed, focused in an
activity and like deeply engagedand really get a strong, deep
(49:51):
sense of enjoyment.
And that's the stage where youfeel challenged.
Right, you feel challenged andyou can stretch your ability.
You know that kind of state andfor those who talk about Ikigai
, you study that, like you mighthave also heard Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi.
He's a scientist whopopularized the term.
But the term flow state is alsodeeply connected to Ikigai.
(50:16):
So for me, this is when I feellike I'm working or tackling
those big questions in educationand innovation, those, like you
know, complex puzzles.
Um, I often find myself likeworking really late, like
suddenly I stay up, uh, allnight, 3 am4 am.
I'm scrolling, like looking atarticles and things like that,
completely absorbed andenergized in the process.
(50:38):
And and that's when I feel like, ah, maybe that's why I exist,
that's my true meaning, the, thepurpose, and, um, yeah, so when
people say, oh, ikigai is thereason you wake up in the
morning, for me is the reason Istay up at night.
But I guess it's the same thing.
Yeah, but really I'm still inthat life journey of
(51:00):
experiencing and embracingIkigai and I'm still learning
what is my Ikigai?
Speaker 2 (51:07):
That's a brilliant way to frame it.
It's the reason why I stay lateat night to continue what
you're working on.
I might steal that from you,but, interestingly, one of the
first papers I found on Ikigaiwas related to the flow state
and referenced the flow statescale.
(51:28):
It was basically saying, whenyou experience the flow state,
you in turn experience Ikigai,which then adds to your sense of
coherence related to thatactivity.
And the paper's quitecomplicated, but basically, yeah
, you feel ikigai when you're inflow and that makes life
(51:49):
meaningful.
And you seem to have theawareness of that after the flow
state, because you're enjoyingthe flow state so much it's
really afterwards you realize,oh, that session or that sport,
whatever it is, makes you think,oh, that was great, life is
good.
So, yeah, flow can certainlymake you feel ikigai, or flow
(52:16):
could be ikigai for sure.
So, yeah, I love to get in flow.
I need to get into a bit moreoften but I also really agree
with.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
We are like that theme of connection and like how
flow is a very introspective,like you know, like for myself
the inner feeling, but how, howthen it translates into also
connection, right, the community.
That that to me is also likehow I continue to um, reinforce
(52:48):
the, the ikigai and and thosedifferent aspects of ikigai is
is really important as well.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Yeah, we can even have like social flow where
we're engaged in, I guess, thediamond of dialogue, where we,
both people or members, feellike they're in flow within a
conversation or a group.
And maybe that's what eBashalland Fourth Place provide, that
social flow which is soimportant, especially in this
(53:17):
world of this chaotic world ofsocial media and, um, so much of
our communication now is donethrough devices yeah, I would
say, you know, just feeling thesense of oneness, like itai kan,
is also another aspect ofikigai.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
I think, yeah, just you know, feeling the genuine
connection with others, you know, oh, like we are really
understanding each other on adeeper level and that really
creates the sense of harmony.
And yeah, I think this is what,what is something unique about
japanese culture as well yeah,harmony, unity.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
I learned to take.
I learned Itaikan from GordonMatthews and he made this really
interesting observation that inJapan there is this desire for
Itaikan, like unity, connection,and that's obviously valued and
kind of driven into culture,and then in the West there is
this desire for self-expressionand self-actualization.
(54:23):
But he did note when heinterviewed all these Japanese
and Americans, some Japanesesecretly kind of wanted the
freedom to self-actualize andthen some Americans also kind of
secretly said, ah, I wish I wasmore connected to people.
So I think we want both.
We want this freedom toself-actualize, but we also want
(54:44):
to feel like we're part ofsomething, either a community or
maybe something bigger thanourselves.
So it's so fascinating howIkigai is subjective and how we
can define it from all thesedifferent angles.
There was one word I wanted tothrow at you guys, because you
are very passionate about yourwork, and there is the word
(55:05):
hatarakigai.
So hataraku, the verb to work,and then hatarakigai would be
obviously work that's worthdoing, work that's meaningful.
So is it fair to say that youboth experience Hatarakigai via
Project Mint?
Speaker 3 (55:21):
For me?
Yeah, definitely, I would thinkso.
Let's say for me, whenever wehave these workshops where the
fellows come and, you know,share their personal purpose and
it might be officially throughlike collage or like it can be a
personal statement, kind ofstatement, kind of um, every
(55:42):
time when I'm in that part ofthe workshop for a new cohort of
our project, mean umparticipants.
I I always feel that sense ofum adorakigai, um.
So.
So, yeah, definitely, yes, aresounding yes, um tomoe for you
, yes definitely hatarakigai.
Speaker 1 (55:55):
So for me, hatatarakigai.
So for me, hatarakigai is moreabout feeling a sense of kind of
accomplishment yeah, so likewhat I do really contributes to
a progress of our business.
So this is when I feelHatarakigai and I feel the most
(56:17):
Hatarak guy.
When our alumni makes progress,for example reinventing their
careers or making even a smallstep toward their purposeful
career path, that's when I feelHataraki guy and so proud of
them.
And also I enjoy learningthrough working at Project MEAN,
(56:41):
like my own personal growth.
Yeah, like learning about newconcepts of self-awareness, new
concepts of decision-making andeffective communication and
dialogues.
Learning about this fancy newknowledge really make me feel
(57:04):
even more curious and contributeto my self-improvement and
that's also when I feelHatarakigai.
Speaker 2 (57:14):
I do hope that at some stage in the future Project
Mint and Ikigai Tribe willcollaborate on something and
then we can share someHatarakigai and Ikigai together
and a sense of purpose.
So many things to share, butreally inspired by what you guys
do and wanting to learn more.
(57:36):
So hopefully we can all meetthe three of us.
How often do you go to Japan,gloria?
Speaker 3 (57:45):
Tomoe and I were talking about a potential trip
in maybe summer May.
You know that time frame.
So, yeah, I'm hoping to, yeah,meet Tomoe and you together in
Japan, and I guess that will bethe midpoint right, that will be
the midway.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
Yeah, well, I'll definitely be there in May.
So if you can get there in May,we can catch up and have a chat
in person.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
Yeah, and I just want to.
It may or may not be in thepodcast, but I just want to
comment on what you sharedearlier about the cultural
perspectives of ikigai.
And people start from differentstarting point and you know,
japanese may have a more senseof the unity already, but, like,
really yearning for, like well,it's my personal purpose, right
(58:31):
, self-actualization versus likein a lot of western culture, um
, we actually want, like, peopleare starting to learn more how
how to get ikigai throughcommunity, right, that social
connection, um, but beyondoneself, I think that's a really
interesting concept and usbeing this like cross um global
(58:55):
group of you know someone inmelbourne, someone is in japan
and I have asian background, but, being in us, I think that
different starting point andbringing the different aspects
of ikigai together forindividuals is really powerful.
I remember tomoe and Iinterviewed a researcher on part
of a fellow, he studies theconcept of regret in life, but
(59:22):
through that conversation hesaid, like his perspective of
ikigai is the following is morelike collection of gemstones,
right, like.
So there are different ways ofyou know, experiencing ikigai.
It can be through that moment,it can be through that flow
state.
It can be through that flowstate.
It can be through thatconnection, it can be through
that self-actualization, thatpurpose theme.
And yeah, it is like I reallylike his metaphor of gemstones
(59:46):
in life and you can collectgemstones in various different
ways and your culture may showyou predominantly one way, but I
guess for us it's like how canwe evangelize the many different
paths and ways so people canexperience more ikigai in their
life?
Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
So that's what's fascinating.
When you hear these differentinterpretations or perspectives
on ikigai, it's like, ah, I'velearned something new so that's
a nice way to describe it acollection of life's gemstones.
And even the idea of regret,like I was thinking about this
the other day, like why do weregret something and we struggle
(01:00:26):
to let it go?
And I kind of realized perhapsit's because it's a loss of
potential icky guy.
You had this potential icky guybut for whatever reason you
didn't take the opportunity, oryou're too lazy, or whatever
happened.
And then it's only after yourealize I lost this opportunity.
Now I regret it and you realize, ah, it was a loss of ikigai
(01:00:50):
yes, next time when we gettogether, we'll talk also on
regret.
Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I believe a lot of these.
And also ikigai does it have tobe related to joy or, you know,
fulfillment, or doesn't ittranscend beyond right, like so?
Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
there, there are these concepts as well, and I'm
curious to hear more yes, thisconversation could go on and on,
but we should finish, so thankyou both, uh, gloria and Tomoe,
very much for your time.
It was good to connect with youboth today.
Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Thank you so much for having us, Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
My pleasure, so we'll say bye for now, but hopefully
our next conversation will be inperson.
Awesome, yes, please, okay, byefor now.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Bye for now.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Thank you everyone.
Thanks, See you.
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