September 8, 2024 • 61 mins
Can ikigai be used as a treatment?
Ikigai is about discovering a sense of purpose, and when applied effectively, it can enhance other Western treatments like behavioural activation, promoting overall well-being.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Nathania Rochelle and Jürgen Hoyer about leveraging behavioural activation and ikigai for preventive health.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I actually really love group treatment because the
principles of behavioralactivation can be taught in a
group as easy as in anindividual treatment and you do
reach much more people, but thebackground of the people is
quite different.
So if you try to teach theprinciples to a group of Germans
and there's somebody from Asiaamong the patients, it's not so
(00:27):
easy for the person toaccommodate to the principles.
And once we found out thatthere's a similarity that I can
say well, basically, it's verymuch the same like finding your
Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom On episode 91 of
the Ikigai podcast.
I welcome Natanya, Rochelle andJuergen Hoyer.
Natanya is a passionatein-training clinical
psychologist, eager to helppatients with empathy,
psychological methods and hardwork.
She believes in the importanceof research-based practice and
practice-based research, andJuergen is a professor of
(01:20):
behavioral psychotherapy at theTechnical University of Dresden.
Thank you very much for joiningme today and welcome to the
podcast.
I'll start with that.
You co-authored this article orpaper titled A Cross-Cultural
Conceptual Comparison ofBehavioral Activation and Ikigai
and I thought, wow, that isinteresting.
(01:43):
And I guess, on a personal note, I was surprised to see my name
as a citation in the paper.
So thank you for referencing mein the paper.
That was a lovely littlesurprise.
I never imagined I'd bereferenced in a technical paper
or a paper based on behavioralactivation.
Based on behavioral activation.
So in this article you proposethat cultural bridging is
(02:09):
possible between behavioralactivation and ikigai, as they
share the same basic principlethe importance of an
individual's values, of becomingmotivated and guiding everyday
action decisions.
So probably should ask how didthis paper come about, Natanya?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
So probably should ask how did this paper come
about, natanya?
I think this paper came about.
This is a little bit morepersonal, but I think it's fine
if I explain it as well.
I was looking for topics for mybachelor thesis actually.
So I was just writing onprofessor and asking, hey, do
you have any topics?
And I come across Juergen and Ijust wrote him hey, do you
(02:45):
probably have some topic?
And he brought up this topicactually.
So this started off as like amini bachelor thesis in order
for me to get my degree actually, but then it became something a
lot bigger, I guess, somethingthat I did not quite expect that
it would be like that.
When I remember writing mybachelor thesis thesis, I had
tons of fun doing it, justreading about ikigai, reading
(03:07):
about behavioral activation andlearning about all of these
things that are similar andsometimes are not similar
because maybe, coming from likea, I come from an eastern
background as well that topicobviously is very interesting to
me and having like study hereobviously I am also German
trained in a way, because, likeI do my um university and
(03:30):
education here, um, to become apsychologist.
So I think that really sparksmy interest in it and yeah,
that's how how I came acrossIkigai and I guess like the
topic as well, like you've seenit in bookstores too, like books
about it and like things likethat.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, okay, so was it that, jürgen, you actually
introduced Ikigai to Natanya?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
that's correct and you can call it a fortunate
accident, because I came acrossIkigai.
I can't exactly remember, but Iguess that some algorithm
behind Instagram was the cause.
So I just came across Ikigai.
I found it interesting and Ibought the book by Ken Mogi on
(04:16):
Ikigai to give it to my wifebecause I thought it would be an
interesting read.
Then I opened up the book and Isaw the five principles, and
that gave me goosebumps, becauseimmediately I saw the
similarity between this Easternconcept and the Western strategy
(04:39):
in treatment that I've beenusing a lot during recent years,
which is called behavioralactivation.
So the reasons why we becomeactive are maybe shared
knowledge across cultures, butthey may be termed differently,
and the strategies to arrive ata fulfilling form of activity
(05:06):
different ones, and so I thoughtboth strategies could benefit
from each other and help us tobecome more flexible in finding
our motivations and ikigaimoments and ikigai moments.
So and that was my thinking,but I've enough to do as a
(05:28):
therapist, as a professor, as aresearcher, I would say and then
Natalia asked me for a topic.
So guess what?
I told her what a possibletopic.
I'm actually fortunate that ourmotivations really came
together and Natalia, I must say, is so talented, because it's
(05:55):
quite unusual that a bachelorthesis finally makes it into a
scientific international journalwith external review, which it
did Thanks to.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Natalia.
Well, there you go.
Yeah, I mean a few things onthat is.
I know Ken Moggy's book isbooming in Germany at the moment
.
I think it's a bestseller.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's been a bestseller for a number of
months.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And, interestingly, the five pillars are really
Ken's personal theory on Ikigai.
So it's interesting how it doesresonate, I guess, with German
readers.
Oniki Gai so it's interestinghow it does resonate, I guess,
with German readers.
And then, yeah, natanya, I mean, I think writing a paper would
probably be harder than writinga book, with all these citations
(06:35):
and the review process andgetting everything accurate.
So it must have been.
I have this vision.
It must be quite hard.
But was it hard or enjoyable,or both?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
as the author, I think I mean, we're talking
about Ikigai here.
I think it is definitely aprocess.
It was not easy.
It took me some time to likeconvert it, so to say, from my
bachelor thesis to, for mepersonally, also say, also say,
hey, this is something that isgood enough that I think I feel
(07:09):
pretty good about submitting itto the paper, like.
That process was definitely alot harder than just writing a
thesis, for sure, but I do thinkit is something that I enjoy
doing a lot.
So like, even though it's hard,it was something that I enjoy
doing a lot.
So like, even though it's hard,it was something that I
thoroughly enjoy, like I enjoyreading and like just maybe
(07:30):
geeking out a little bit on likewriting it and finding the
right words and how to make myidea come across, and also, like
all of these people that haswritten about it before, like
for them to also get theircredit because, like I can only
write as good as what the peoplebefore me has published and
like has done research on.
(07:51):
I think so, in a way, it kindof reflects my own personal
ikigai in a way for that periodof time.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I mean writing's challenging, but it's definitely
worth doing, and I guess it'smeaning making.
You're expressing yourself,you're expressing this creative
self and pulling all these ideastogether.
So, yeah, it does take effort,but it's rewarding when you, I
guess you finish, and I'm sureit was rewarding when, yeah, the
paper was published.
So, yeah, congratulations toyou both, and perhaps we should
(08:25):
take time to touch on behavioralactivation, what that exactly
means.
So maybe, jürgen, would youlike to touch on that, because I
think you have a strong historywith that, a long history.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, I'm a psychotherapist and I'm
concentrating in research and intreatment on anxiety disorders
and affective disorders, mostimportantly depression and the
treatment concepts fordepression.
Many of them are coming frombehavior therapy and one of them
(09:01):
, the easiest principle, iscalled behavioral activation and
that's been developed in theUnited States by a group around
Peter Lewinson and others likeFirst Reem and others.
Famous depression theoristAaron Beck integrated behavioral
(09:33):
activation in his concept whichhad dominated depression
treatment for decades.
But behavioral activation wasnot attractive.
The basic idea behindbehavioral activation is
depressed people suffer fromdoing too little rewarding
activities, so what would helpthem is increase their
activation rate.
That's really very simplethinking.
(09:56):
But guess how depressed peoplefind that?
I mean it's a little bit ironiceven because that's exactly
what they can't do engage inthings.
And so behavioral activationgot reformulation in the 90s and
beginning 2000 years and thatrethinking of behavioral
(10:20):
activation integrated value work.
So what your values in yourlife that you are really
committed to?
And so there was a shift in theconceptualization of behavioral
activation from just doing morepleasurable things toward
(10:43):
finding committed action foryourself that serve your values,
because you cannot do the wholeday pleasurable things and
definitely not as long as you'redepressed, but if you want to
get back into life, it's veryhelpful to do simple tasks.
(11:03):
After having done them, youwill feel better than before,
and that's really a lifeprinciple grounded on wisdom.
I mean, do your thing, as smallas it might be.
It gives you better feelingsthan not doing it, and that's
(11:27):
the motivational motor withinbehavioral activation.
But how do you find the rightaction?
And that's quite different andI don't think that this is
different from Ikigai differentfrom Ikigai and I don't think
(11:48):
that there are such strategicways within Ikigai like they are
in behavioral activation.
And that is called activitymonitoring and scheduling.
It's a form of an inductivemethod, so you're just
monitoring your daily activitiesand in your activity and mood
protocol you evaluate how yourmood was during and after an
(12:11):
activity.
And doing this avoids what wecall recall bias, because if you
ask a depressed person after aweek if there have been any
enjoyable activities, adepressed person, the mindset is
so.
There have been any enjoyableactivities, a depressed person
the mindset is so negative thatthe person will answer no.
But if you look at activitieswhen they occur, you find out
(12:36):
that not all activities aregiving you bad mood.
Some give you not euphoric orwonderful or happy mood, but
make you feel okay and step bystep, you choose to these kinds
of activities over otheractivities, especially
(12:59):
depressogenic, as we say,activities like withdrawal,
staying in bed, engaging innegative thinking, paying
attention to your own feelingsof insufficiency and things like
that.
So any activity, even on reallysmall matters, are beneficial
(13:21):
compared to just staying in adepressed mood and remaining
passive.
So that's the idea behindbehavioral activation.
It's a well-tested method.
It's as beneficial as the bestbehavioral methods and
treatments, but it's simplerbecause that's the basic idea
(13:42):
and, yeah, we have empiricaldata enough to say that's people
helping out of depression.
Not all of them, of course, butin many cases, even severe
(14:03):
cases, it a close neighbor ofbehavioral activation in the
field of preventing to ever fallinto the depressive hole, so to
say.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
That's what I found attractive of the paper, because
I thought I haven't.
I actually had been looking fora paper on Ikigai related to
depression, whether it can helpwith depression, does it prevent
depression?
And I mean the value idea isinteresting because if I'm a
guest on a podcast, I'll oftenstart by saying Ikigai is all
(14:41):
about you know your values,living in alignment with your
values, and it's obviouslymeaning making.
But you know, if you live inconflict with your values,
whether that's in a job oryou're compromising your values
in a relationship, it's going tobe very hard to feel um ikigai.
So I know we're going to touchon values later.
(15:03):
So thanks for that definition.
Now we might move on to definingikigai, and I know you both did
a lot of reading on this andthere were many citations, and
actually a lot of your citationsrefer to quite a few of these
amazing people who've been on mypodcast, such as Ken Moggy,
(15:23):
chiko Ozawa de Silva, shintaroKono, gordon Matthews, dean Fido
.
So, with all the insights andall the reading you did, natanya
, how would you define ikigai?
Or how did you define ikigai inthe paper?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I think in the paper, because it provides a
systematic comparison to about.
So I try my best to kind oflike stick to the original idea
as close as I could possibly getwith all of the things that
have been published, or likepeople that haven't been defined
how ikigai is, so to say.
But I think I mean if taking italso into context with
(16:02):
behavioral activation I do agreethat ikigai is something that
makes your life worth living,but I think it can also, how
Jorgen and Jovi has alreadytouched on it be value-based.
So I think it is making lifeworth living, but it's not just
randomly trying to make yourlife worth living, but also
living your life according toyour values.
(16:24):
I think I would take it onestep further to say life like
the life you it's worth livingfor, is the life that that you
can live out your values.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yes.
Yeah, I mean Ken Ken in hisbook.
One of the first questions iswhat are your sentimental values
?
And I always thoughtsentimental was like a really
interesting word choice, maybesuggesting the inner child or
this, this, this untainted self,because he didn't say core
values or most important valuesso there's this emotional
(16:59):
connection perhaps ken'stouching on, to your values.
So, yeah, I think that's reallyimportant and I guess sometimes
I reflect and think, wow, thereare millions of people living
their life against their valuesand it's no wonder they're
frustrated and depressed.
And in this modern world, withso much pressure and so much
(17:22):
distraction and almost, it seemsnow, little opportunity to
express our values, it seemsquite hard for us to feel ikigai
, or for many of us, it'sinteresting how, yeah, ikigai
and behavioral activation havethis foundation on values.
So we should touch on the aimof the paper, right?
(17:47):
So I might refer to you again,natanya, and then we might come
back to you again as well.
So, yeah, what was the aim ofthe paper?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I think the aim of the paper was to obviously
provide this parallel, because Ithink it's very interesting how
I mean, through the reading,the way I understand it, ikigai
has existed for a long time andit's even like part of the
everyday, everyday language, soto say so I think it is very
embedded in the culture and,whereas, like, behavioral
(18:17):
activation is like you can alsoalready describe um, something
that is recent, more recent, Ithink, in comparison to ikigai.
So I think the aim is to kind ofput this in parallel and see,
wow, there is this like livephilosophy that has existed for
a long time and then suddenly inthe Western world, there is
(18:40):
this whole idea and then itbecomes psychotherapy method.
So I think the aim is to like,obviously bring that into
parallel and also see, in a way,how can we maybe integrate that
, maybe in therapy, but also inthe prevention, I think.
I think that is the field thatI think is also most interesting
to see how, because ikigai issomething that, if it's really
(19:03):
something that has alreadyexisted and people practice it
in their daily life I mean it'skind of weird to say like
practice ikigai, but let's rollwith it Like they already exist.
Then imagine like the amount ofpeople that would not feel
depressed just because they leada value based life and that
(19:27):
makes their life worth living,and they have all of this like
good feelings.
Imagine that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
So I think like to explore those ideas and like
broaden the perspective also tosee not to maybe be as
psychological minded in a way,but also try to be more like
open up the world for it to toreach more people and reach a
broader audience.
I think that was ultimately theaim for it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Nice, I mean this often is the case.
Eastern wisdom seems to getlater validated with Western
research.
And I mean ikigai is unique inthat it is used in an everyday
kind of language context.
But most Japanese don't reallytalk about ikigai and it's
something they grow up with,something they intuitively
(20:16):
understand with life experience.
Yet we don't go around sayingit'd be very weird for us to say
, hey, what makes your lifeworth living, or what's your
life purpose, just in a normalcasual conversation, whereas,
okay, you know, occasionally orrarely japanese might say
whereas okay, you know,occasionally or rarely, japanese
might say, oh, yeah, I wouldsay my work is a source of
(20:36):
ikigai or you know, they'll useit very casually.
So it's fascinating how ineastern culture these, these
ideas sort of seem to justevolve from their understanding
of life, for a meaningful life,but in the west we we seem to
have to validate and do someresearch and study and then we
give it a very technical termthat's kind of hard to use in
(20:59):
conversation.
Yeah, would you like to addanything, jürgen, because I
guess this was your idea,perhaps to?
Oh, let's compare these twoconcepts.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, yeah it is.
It was my idea, thanks, yeah.
Well, one of the many aims ofthe paper was ultimately to
bring researchers together tounite their efforts.
I mean it would make much senseto discuss the core meanings as
(21:30):
well of Western values and ofIkigai experiences in a united
form of research.
And when I started PEPA, ofcourse, I had a dream, and the
dream is that researchers fromthe West and from the East would
try to ask people what is yourIkigai or what's the reason why
(21:53):
you get up in the morning?
And if you ask a thousandpeople, I think it's too little.
It should be a thousand,because psychology research aims
at giving representativeanswers that are true for the
majority of people.
And that would be a complicatedresearch because the answers
will be very, very different andwe would have to categorize
(22:17):
them and we would learn so muchfrom these answers.
And we would learn it for thetheory of well-being.
How do people generatewell-being?
With their own actions, notbeing angry about politics or
others, but just looking attheir own action and directing
(22:39):
their attention to what they canachieve, what they could do
with their own life.
And I think that's a veryimportant part of mental health
at all, and discussing this is,of course, one of the most
interesting topics you canchoose, and, while I'm convinced
that research from the West canlearn from those ideas and
(23:02):
researchers in the East, too,could benefit from discussing
their ideas with Western-liketherapists or therapy
researchers, that's the idea,one of the ideas which you
always hope that if you write ajournal article, you always hope
that it might stimulatesomebody out there.
I'm very grateful that youinvited us to the podcast, at
(23:29):
least this time.
It's a paper that doesn't havean effect.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It is.
I mean, it is quite bizarre.
I never imagined I'd bereaching out to academics and
researchers and saying, hey,would you want to talk about
life meaning and Ikigai?
But I love it.
And I do love that idea ofbringing, yeah, researchers
together and share ideas andthemes and perspectives from
different cultural perspectives,idea of bringing um, yeah,
researchers together and shareideas and themes and
perspectives from differentcultural perspectives, and I
(23:57):
actually did a nikki guy summitlast year.
So I'd like to do that againand be great to do that in
person, perhaps in in japan.
But when I think about ikigaiand when I discuss it and your
well-being well-being comes up,and for me this is almost a word
that articulates like this isJapan's version of positive
psychology in one word,encapsulated in one word, and
(24:21):
these themes of lifesatisfaction, you know,
relationships, a sense offreedom, a bright future,
meaning and value.
It's fascinating and theresearch is seemingly endless
and more and more papersappearing.
So, yeah, it's great we cantalk about this and we should
(24:41):
talk about this, and I think wedon't.
You know, most people don'thave these conversations.
They only have theseconversations perhaps at a
workshop or if they need help.
We don't sit down with ourfamilies or friends and we're
usually talking about how upsetwe are that our sports team lost
(25:04):
a match or our negative things.
We need to get things off ourchest.
So I agree totally thatdiscussing this is really
important.
And to move on, yeah, this ideaof the practice of behaviour
activation or ikigai sounds alittle bit unusual, but I guess
(25:25):
people do Japanese do pursuetheir ikigai, you know, maybe on
the weekends or in theirrelationships or in their
private time.
So we could say it's somethingyou practice.
So can you walk us through howbehavioral activation and Ikigai
are practiced in this contextof treatment or therapy?
(25:47):
Yeah, who would like to touchon that?
Yeah, who would like to touchon that?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I think Jürgen should touch on that, as he has more
experience on the therapy fields.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think yeah, before I start, I have to say that what
I learn, I do learn fromdepressed patients, not from
like friends or people who arehealthy and who are in my social
network.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
I learn it from my patients.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
So this we have to keep in mind.
But still, I do learn from them, and what I learn is how to
become not just motivated.
That's quite inherent inbehavioral activation, because
during activity monitoring andscheduling, you find out what
brings you like enjoyment, butalso the feeling that you did
(26:45):
something that really was anexpression of your commitment to
your values.
That's not the only thing,because depressed persons will
obviously, if they start anaction, have negative comments
on it.
Why am I doing this?
Well, actually it doesn't feelas good as I thought it would.
(27:06):
Other people will not noticethings like that.
People will not notice thingslike that, so there will be
these negative attentionalprocesses which a colleague of
mine whom I admire, adrian Wells, called the cognitive attentive
syndrome.
So that explains why peopletend to ruminate and keep on
(27:29):
worrying, though it doesn'treally help anybody.
And ikigai means you not onlyask the right question, but you
only know something from yourinside how to do it, because it
gives you focus and care duringyour actions.
(27:49):
This is something that we inbehavioral activation teach
patients.
So become concentrated on whatyou're doing, keep attention to
what you're doing.
If you decided to do it, thentry to become present in that
moment, Sharing time with yourchildren, that's good, but are
(28:10):
you really there?
Or are you in such a cognitiveattentive syndrome thinking
about something else, your, yourown insufficience and your work
obligations, and what otherpeople said and what other
people expecting, and so on?
Are you really there?
And this seems to me, uh, to bean inherent in in ikigai,
(28:34):
because, if you know, today Iwant to share time with my
children.
So you can ask yourself am Isharing time or am I in my head
somewhere else?
So that's what we learn duringtreatment.
We see people take on actionand then they come back to
(28:54):
treatment and they say, well, Idid it, but it didn't feel quite
good.
Then, of course, the typicalquestion of the therapist is
what did you really do?
Have you been really there whensharing time with your kids?
And then maybe they are saying,well, yes, I was there, my body
(29:14):
was there, but I had not.
And Ikigai would give thisdifferent shape, a different
flair.
So you could ask am I reallythere?
Am I really doing what Idecided to do?
And so this spin towards youraction, that could be a nice
(29:35):
import from Ikigai, so to say.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
That's a valid point.
And now I'm thinking of theword engagement.
I guess you do engage with yourIkigai because it's meaningful,
it's based on your values,especially in a role you know if
you really value a role as aparent or a friend or a
researcher.
Yeah, you'll engage in that andyou'll be so.
(30:01):
Present time will disappear,but it also seems like we suffer
from this insanity ofruminating on the past or
worrying about the future, andwe can get into these cycles
where we're wasting hours oftime remembering something that
upset us and it's like we'reinsane.
(30:22):
So, yeah, it's all veryinteresting and Ikigai does
offer us this alternative way tothink about oh, how can I get
through the tough times in mylife?
But it does sound a little oddor unnatural to say practice
Ikigai.
But it is something we canpractice.
And it reminds me of one of myguests, trudy Boyle, amazing
(30:45):
woman, on episode 39.
And she said Ikigai is a callto action.
I love that.
And Ken Moggy talks about theidea of how Ikigai responds to
proactiveness.
You've got to get up and dosomething.
It responds to that you willfeel Ikigai.
So, yeah, this is interesting.
(31:05):
So did you get that feeling,natanya?
Like oh, ikigai is not thispassive thing.
It's this proactive type of Idon't know what you call it
well-being, self-well-being orself-prescribed well-being Is
that the right way to say it?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Yeah, I think I do get the feeling that Ikigai is
this proactive way on doingthings and I think it is
fascinating for me to see thatyou cannot just feel good if you
just stand there and do nothing.
I think the closeness to thiscall to action is very
(31:49):
fascinating to do so.
Call to action, it's veryfascinating to do so and I think
, especially in looking at thecontext of this world, like you
said, like this insanity of thisworld where you're kind of feed
, like information is feed toyou like nothing else in, like
the last I don't know, like thelast century, like the amount of
information you got feed in, Ithink it's also absolutely
(32:12):
insane.
So, like that proactiveness tobring to like selectively decide
and intentionally choose.
This is how I want to live mylife, this is how I want to do
my life.
I think that is the core of itat the end, like that
intentionality of it, that Iguess intentionality and the
engagement of how you do yourlife and also like the
(32:34):
information that you receive andlike things like that and what
to do with it.
I think it is definitely that,and also I'm referring to what
Juergen said earlier about howsorry I lost.
I lost my point there a littlebit.
I was again, I'll put my handand I was like wait, what was I
about to say?
Um, um, about how asking theright question each morning,
(32:59):
right, like what you get up,what do you want to do, and like
the intentionality behind it, Ithink is definitely what really
guides it.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah, anyone who knows ikigai knows
it's often expressed as thething that gets you out of bed
in the morning.
But I remember listening to apodcast between two Japanese
talking about it, and one ofthem said actually you know what
?
It's not what gets you out ofbed in the morning, it's what
you look forward to getting outof bed the next day, to getting
(33:31):
out of bed the next day.
So that could infer intention,or almost this anticipatory
pleasure or enjoyment ofthinking about ah, tomorrow I've
got this to look forward to.
And ikigai is tied to futureperspective as well.
I think you would have read alittle bit about me called
Kamiya, and tying ikigaiinvolves your perception of the
(33:55):
future.
So even if you're depressed nowor struggling now, if you have
goals to look forward to orthings to look forward to that
can give you that focus orawareness and pull you out of
that depressive state that'scalled reward anticipating in
psychological depressionresearch or in emotional
research, reward anticipatingthat's something that keeps you
(34:18):
going If you know it's going tobe great next time.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
you keep being motivated.
So it's an active process,which is disordered or disturbed
once you become depressed,because during depression you
think it's going on like it istoday, so I'm gonna be feeling
sad next time too, which is notcorrect.
You will feel next time may begreat, as long as you anticipate
(34:46):
it in your mind.
So it's also about generatingpositive fantasies about your
action there.
You go.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So it's all in our mind.
It's fascinating how ouremotions and feelings, our state
, how we communicate can beinfluenced what's going on in
our mind.
We can be compassionate andkind if we've got something
positive in our mind, and thenwe can be aggressive and offhand
and snappy if we've gotsomething positive in our mind,
and then we can be aggressiveand offhand and snappy if we've
got some negative thought.
So it really matters to bepresent and aware, and I guess
(35:24):
now we could touch on perhapssome of the similarities you
uncovered between behaviouractivation and ikigai, and maybe
even some of the differencesmight help.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean it's really striking the idea with the small
steps and the idea of startingsmall.
This is so central tobehavioral therapy.
It's a basic idea of behavioraltherapy since decades and that
comes out of this experiencebecause the logic is quite clear
(36:02):
If you start small, you willstart successfully, you will
start with a success.
If you start large, you takethe risk of failing and that
will not motivate you.
So having the experience thatsomething works and you can do
(36:22):
it, that's really motivating andthat's even increasing
motivation, and then you canstart doing it better next time,
or larger or whatever.
But that's the way you bringthings motivationally into life.
And so that seems to be a basicprinciple and in my experience
(36:44):
as a therapist I've always beenusing this and it's
paradoxically.
I mean I remember having treateda manager from a German company
and his goal was to become theCEO of that company.
His goal was to become the CEOof that company.
(37:04):
I guess the company is so largeit's maybe even well-known
abroad, I don't know.
But then I told him the logicof starting small, because he
was depressed severely afterhaving had brain tumor surgery
(37:25):
and it was not realistic tostill become what he wanted
before.
And so I told him the logic oftaking on small steps and I was
afraid that he would be likedisappointed, that he would be
like disappointed.
So the expectation totherapists is that they're even
(37:49):
more wise than you are and theyhave the overall sensational
solution maybe.
And I'm a professor and I toldhim well, I don't have any
sensational solution at all.
I have the most mundanesolution, which is start small,
start with small steps.
(38:10):
And well, we had a sensationalsuccess in that kind of therapy.
He stopped his career, actually, and I mean, in other words, he
found his ikigai.
He moved completely out ofoffice, changed the office,
began a different thing.
I asked him what are the thingsthat you really would like to
(38:35):
do, given that you cannot becomethe CEO?
And he said well, actually, Ilove, really love, hunting,
being out, being out in thewoods, oh, really, and that's
what he did among other things.
Okay, well, that's, I guess, asimilarity, and I guess that's
(39:01):
something that is global wisdomIf you want to restart your life
, you cannot start large.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Just in rehabilitation treatment.
I mean, you had a broken leg.
Yeah, yeah, you start small.
(39:36):
Taking the first step again isa great experience.
It signals you're on the righttrack and I mean that's
something that people arechecking constantly.
That's how self-regulationworks.
We're always checking are we onthe right track?
And if you take on small steps,this checking process is easier
and the feedback from thechecking process will more often
(39:56):
be yes, you are, you can dothat, you're not failing.
Go on, how does that feel?
It feels good.
So that's one similarity.
And there's another similarity,which is the principle of doing
things with awareness and withhigh quality.
(40:18):
I mean, that's what I talkedpreviously about.
It's not just doing the action,but with awareness, with
commitment and with a certainemotional deepness.
And as long as that exists, youwill enjoy the action, even if
(40:39):
it's not typically positive orpleasurable action.
Just having your tax taxapplication done you fulfillment
if you, if you do it, reliefwithout feelings of Feelings of
anger and feeling under timepressure, yeah, you can do it in
(41:05):
a relaxed way.
And so those are thesimilarities.
I'm not clear, but if Ispeculate on the dissimilarities
, I guess that's something thatyou already mentioned, nick that
in Japanese culture you can askyour neighbor so how about your
(41:25):
ikigai today?
What is it that you'recommitted to today?
That's unusual in the West.
So reflecting on your ikigaiseems to be embedded in the
Japanese culture in a very wiseand healthy way, and it does not
(41:46):
seem so in the Western culture.
Maybe our podcast cancontribute to that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
It's interesting that this idea of yeah, we've
touched on doing things,starting small, which obviously
Ken Moggy writes about verypowerful concepts, and he does
say in the West we have thisall-or-nothing attitude, yeah,
so it's applicable, it's like auniversal concept.
You can apply it to everything.
And then the idea of doingthings well or with care.
(42:16):
There's actually a Japaneseexpression called chanto suru
and you know my wife's alwaystelling me to do things properly
.
I remember when my son I have a20-year-old son, but when he
was a young child my wife would,when we lived in Japan, if we
had visitors, she would take himby the hand to the door and say
like chanto aisatsu, shite ne,and greet our guests properly.
(42:40):
And this word chanto, we don'toften say do this properly, do
that properly.
So Japanese do have thislexicon of words.
They're very powerful andthey're used in a daily context.
But what I found reallyinteresting was one of the case
studies on a Japanese living inGermany.
So, ditanji, do you want totouch on this case study?
(43:03):
I guess this young 23-year-oldJapanese architect student and,
ironically, ikigai helped them.
Yeah, do you want to touch onthat?
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Or should I do this because it was my treatment?
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's better because that was
based off on that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I actually really love group treatment because the
principles of behavioractivation can be taught in a
group as easy as in anindividual treatment and you do
reach much more people, but thebackground of the people is
quite different.
So if you try to teach theprinciples to a group of Germans
and there's somebody from Asiaamong the patients, maybe it's
(43:53):
not so easy for the person toaccommodate to the principles.
And once we found out thatthere's a similarity that I can
say well, basically it's verymuch the same like finding your
ikigai, and you can try to findyour ikigai even when you're
(44:13):
depressed.
It will not help immediately,but depression does not mean
that you cannot follow yourikigai.
And as long as you can followyour ikigai despite your
depression, depression will losepower over you.
And that was really like ooh.
(44:39):
I mean at that moment thepatient got it like a an
epiphany you can follow up yourpast despite your feelings or
your mood, as long as you knowwhat your icky guy is yeah, that
was interesting reading that.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I was like, oh wow, this japanese person, student
away from home, struggling withtheir well-being, and I mean,
obviously it probably took morethan this, but I was this um
trigger that made them realize,oh, I can, can still find
meaning, I can still do thingsthat are worthwhile.
That will.
(45:19):
That obviously impacted theirwell-being in a positive way.
After they framed it as ikigaiNatalia, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Sorry, no, sorry, I didn't quite realize you weren't
quite done yet, but no, justlike adding into it a little bit
.
I think the idea of likebriefly also mentioned it about
like the whole, like culturalbridging and like things like
that, I think how, if it's likesomething that is spoken in your
mother tongue, in a way, likethis idea that was spoken near
to you, I think that reallydefinitely enhanced that as well
(45:52):
, like the whole treatment andthings like that, especially
with you know, it's somethinglike oh, I know, that's from
home yeah, yeah no, just addingthat yeah it would ground you,
comfort you as well yeah yeah,so that's that was interesting.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
So, going back to your paper, in the paper as a
subheading, you ask the questionis there a cross-cultural
transfer?
So would you like to answerthat?
Uh, natanya, between, obviouslybetween the two concepts.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I think, um, the whole idea about
cross-cultural transfer I findfascinating because, like again,
it's like the ideas, okay, theyexist, but okay, obviously,
like culture, um, influence thatas well.
I think I think, especially ina time we live now, the whole
hybrid of culture and especiallywith the internet and
(46:44):
everything, the hybrid of theculture even though we don't
want to say that they don'texist, they exist this hybrid of
culture, young people, thehybrid of culture between the
Eastern and the Western, it'snot as distinctive anymore.
So I think finding a way tointegrate that could be one way
to also like accommodate, tolike the next generation,
(47:07):
because you might never knowwhat this generation received
from the internet, right, youdon't know, like, what kind of
people they're talking to with.
It's very much possible, likehow we're doing this podcast
right now.
You know like this whole ideaof that.
So I think cross-culturaltransfer, in a way, I think
without us even realizing it, Ithink it is already happening.
So, like the idea of, likebehavioral activation and nikki
(47:30):
guy and like things like that,without us even realizing, or
like there's like a systematic,more intentional way of
integrating that like I feellike subconsciously it's already
happening and we're just nowrealizing it.
Oh, it's happening now.
Oh, wow, there's more peoplethat maybe relate with more
eastern wisdom or more um, maybe, like east people with eastern
(47:54):
background, now relates more forsomething more western or more
eastern, in a way yeah, yeah,totally, yeah, totally yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I mean, it's interesting A lot of the
Japanese words that becomepopular.
Wabi-sabi is a really good one.
Wabi-sabi is something yousense, you feel from an
aesthetic of nature or pottery,and then in the West it's sort
of become this idea of livingthe imperfect life and accepting
(48:21):
your own flaws.
And the same with kintsugi.
Kintsugi is this way to repairpottery, and Japanese would only
understand it as that.
It's this golden lacquer to youknow, pull pieces of pottery
together that have been broken.
But even in the West now it'ssort of embraced as oh, your
(48:44):
scars sort of add to your lifeand you're, um, if you, if
you're broken and you come backtogether, you're, you're
stronger and more beautiful.
So there is this sort oftransfer, even if it's a little
bit lost in translation, whichyeah, as it usually happens.
Yeah, sometimes that happensinteresting, yeah, and maybe
(49:06):
that's in some ways beneficial.
But, um, yeah, mickey guycertainly got lost in
translation, as you guys wouldknow, so it's good to see people
um research it and maybe notonly lost, but also maybe
transformed a little bit alittle bit more so, yeah, this
(49:27):
is fascinating how, um somewords seem to stick and we we
fall in love with them orembrace them.
I guess.
Going back to what I was reallyinterested in was it's
obviously established thatbehavioral activation has
continuously been demonstratedin psychotherapy to treat
(49:47):
depression effectively acrossdifferent cultures.
So my question is probably toyou, jürgen are you confident
that the same can be said forikigai?
Could it be treated as apsychotherapy to treat
depression in various cultures?
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Actually, that's something that Natalia and I are
touching on now, Because thenext step for us seems to be how
can we promote prevention ofdepression?
How can we promote preventionof depression?
And Iggy Guy is obviouslynothing that has been developed
(50:27):
as a treatment.
In my view, it's a helpful andhealthy strategy to look on life
and my actions in life.
It's just raising the rightquestion.
(50:48):
As I say, I would say, it's nota thing that you can grasp.
It's more a process of askingquestions and checking out if
you're on the right track infinding your Ikigai of today or
of the year of your life, and sothat's something that people
should have the privilege toadhere to, and I'm very
(51:13):
optimistic that this could workin prevention.
So my vision would be don'tlaugh.
My vision would be don't laugh.
My vision would be to teach theIkigai approach in German
schools Fantastic white thinkingagainst too much doubt and a
(51:42):
form of teaching individuality,a form of like confidently stay
with yourself, and that'ssomething that adolescents need
a lot.
That's my vision.
That's what I'm optimisticabout.
I wouldn't say that it wouldadd too much to behavioral
(52:05):
activation, except in thosecases which we mentioned in the
article, but as a form of healthprevention for everybody.
I see it to be really, really,really beneficial.
I'm very optimistic about itand I'm really keen and very
optimistic about it and I'mreally keen on learning more
about it.
I'm looking forward to my firsttrip to Japan.
(52:28):
I want to see Japan in my life.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
It's interesting you mention that because I met
actually a German I'll say hisfirst name because he won't mind
Martin who joined one of mycohorts just recently.
I actually met him in Japanvery briefly for a coffee and he
was sort of interested in oneof my programs.
And he said later after histrip, he said you know, when we
(52:59):
met you, Nick, we were kind ofsceptical because we were in
Tokyo, all these salary men, allthis noise and hustle and
bustle and stress.
We thought, oh, is this ickyguy thing real?
And then he said it was onlyreally when we went outside of
the big cities that we saw it inpeople.
We saw it in, you know, thesepeople working on their own
(53:23):
vegetable gardens or thesepeople who really enjoyed having
them as guests at you know,ryokans or airbnbs.
And yeah, if you want to seeikigai, I definitely recommend
you can go to the big cities andhave a bit of fun, but you'll
see it truly alive in the ruralareas of Japan.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
And that's something I really enjoy.
My wife's from a small town,and so when I get back there
it's really nice to be away fromthat would be a nice research
question too, by the way.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
Your friends of Ikigai and Ruru in Japan.
Yeah yeah, worldwide, I meanthat's interesting because
Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Up until now, the research in Japan has really
been restricted to the elderly.
And what will Japanese do afterretirement?
And most of the studies aredone based on this idea of ah,
what do we do with our retireesor our elderly who are quite
still healthy, but they're justnot active in the community.
Yeah, so there's a lot toresearch.
(54:32):
I mean, is there another paperin this for you, natanya?
Speaker 3 (54:37):
um, in the field of ikea union, or I mean in there's
.
Right now I don't have anythingplanned, but who knows, I might
be inspired after this, wemight be inspired after this,
and then there'll be moreresearch on it.
That's just how research works,you know.
Sometimes you talk to people,bounce off each idea and then
(54:58):
suddenly you have that.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
If there was a grant and an invitation to Japan.
Natalia, she's really excellentand really a talent for any
scientific group and anyuniversity.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
I don't mind.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Actually, I'm having a webinar with Dr Dean Fido and
Dr Yasuhiro Katera next week andwe're trying to generate some
funding so that they can do moreresearch.
So, yeah, I think more research, especially on can it prevent
depression, would be awesome.
(55:40):
So, hopefully, yeah, I mean I'mfinding more and more papers on
Ikigai, everything from robotdesign like how do you design
social or care robots to remindthe people they serve of their
Ikigai to, obviously, what youguys put together.
(56:01):
So the learning.
I guess the research and thelearning never ends.
But let's end on a personalnote.
What about you guys?
What are some of your sourcesof Ikigai?
Speaker 3 (56:14):
I think, if I think about that question, the first
thing that comes to my mind ishaving good coffee with good
friends and like having amazingconversation, honestly, like
that is something that gets meso excited.
Um, but that's a more um, and Ithink if I do that, I'm like I
go out of these likeconversation, meeting with
(56:36):
friends and like things likethat.
I'm like life's good.
But but other than that, Ithink I do.
Like I mentioned in thebeginning, I do really enjoy
doing research and writing andreading and lots of things like
that, and also like how to, Iguess, open up the world to like
more broader or like certainconcepts, especially in like
(56:56):
psychology and like things likethat, opening up to like more
broader people, and like how tohelp, ultimately, how to like
help people in a impactful way.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
I think yeah I mean, it is very much tied to our
social world, but it also can bea private pursuit, but it also
can be where you feel of service.
So it's very multi-faceted,yeah, and even in in Japan, in
Japan they actually have theycall them health and ikigai
(57:26):
creation advisors, and ikigai isframed as first-person
perspective, so what you do foryourself as hobbies or interests
, second-person perspective withthis social ikigai, things you
do with your partner, with yourfamily, with your friends.
And then third person, which is, I guess, community or service.
(57:48):
So perhaps having, yeah, one ofthose or a couple of those
ikigais, or maybe hundreds,would certainly make life feel
worth living yeah what about you, Jürgen?
What are some sources of Ikigaifor you?
Speaker 1 (58:04):
Yeah, well, that's a form of first and second person
Ikigai that I want to mention.
For me, I'm sure, a committedteacher and researcher and even
more a committed father, and Itry to be a good friend to some
people.
(58:24):
But a few years ago I askedmyself, or I felt that there is
something which is unfulfilledin my life.
As a musician, I'm a dilettante.
I can play the guitar a littlebit.
I don't think I can sing, butothers say, well, you can.
(58:45):
And I began writing songs, ohnice.
And then I made up my mind andI thought, well, I want to have
these songs recorded, awesome.
And that really made me, I wasreally frightened.
A little bit when I called aprofessional and I had to play,
(59:09):
I had to wrap my USB stick andplay the music, and then he
began headbanging a little bitand said well, that's a song, I
can record it if you want.
And so that's An Icky Guy.
And so my first album came outwhen I was 64.
Congratulations.
(59:30):
So I'm a young musician.
My second album will appear bythe end of this month, and
Natalia will be.
She's invited to the recordpolice party.
So that's that's I.
I was always dreamed of makingmore music, and, and now I found
(59:55):
a way to do this together withsome professional musicians.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
You've inspired me because I play guitar too, yeah
you could dive deeper into that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
You can try to find the careless responders on
Spotify.
That's basically it.
The main songwriter is calledSugarpill, and you guess who
that is All right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Well, we might add a link.
We can add a link from the shownotes to your music, to your
albums, as well as the paper.
Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
That would be cool.
Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
But yeah, if people want to reach out to you, we'll
probably.
I don't think you guys have anywebsites, but I'll put the
paper in the show notes.
We can put social media if youlike, and we'll link to your
music.
Yeah, thank you very much foryour time today and thank you
for writing this paper togetherand it's definitely worth
(01:00:56):
reading.
And, yeah, maybe we'll have youboth back on again when you've
perhaps explored Ikigai as apreventative measure to
depression.
Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Thank you for having us and for inviting us.
It was a pleasure and it waslovely to get to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Likewise, it really was Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Thanks a lot for having us.
My pleasure and we'll do itagain.
I actually really love group treatment because the
principles of behavioralactivation can be taught in a
group as easy as in anindividual treatment and you do
reach much more people, but thebackground of the people is
quite different.
So if you try to teach theprinciples to a group of Germans
and there's somebody from Asiaamong the patients, it's not so
(00:27):
easy for the person toaccommodate to the principles.
And once we found out thatthere's a similarity that I can
say well, basically, it's verymuch the same like finding your
Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom On episode 91 of
the Ikigai podcast.
I welcome Natanya, Rochelle andJuergen Hoyer.
Natanya is a passionatein-training clinical
psychologist, eager to helppatients with empathy,
psychological methods and hardwork.
She believes in the importanceof research-based practice and
practice-based research, andJuergen is a professor of
(01:20):
behavioral psychotherapy at theTechnical University of Dresden.
Thank you very much for joiningme today and welcome to the
podcast.
I'll start with that.
You co-authored this article orpaper titled A Cross-Cultural
Conceptual Comparison ofBehavioral Activation and Ikigai
and I thought, wow, that isinteresting.
(01:43):
And I guess, on a personal note, I was surprised to see my name
as a citation in the paper.
So thank you for referencing mein the paper.
That was a lovely littlesurprise.
I never imagined I'd bereferenced in a technical paper
or a paper based on behavioralactivation.
Based on behavioral activation.
So in this article you proposethat cultural bridging is
(02:09):
possible between behavioralactivation and ikigai, as they
share the same basic principlethe importance of an
individual's values, of becomingmotivated and guiding everyday
action decisions.
So probably should ask how didthis paper come about, Natanya?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
So probably should ask how did this paper come
about, natanya?
I think this paper came about.
This is a little bit morepersonal, but I think it's fine
if I explain it as well.
I was looking for topics for mybachelor thesis actually.
So I was just writing onprofessor and asking, hey, do
you have any topics?
And I come across Juergen and Ijust wrote him hey, do you
(02:45):
probably have some topic?
And he brought up this topicactually.
So this started off as like amini bachelor thesis in order
for me to get my degree actually, but then it became something a
lot bigger, I guess, somethingthat I did not quite expect that
it would be like that.
When I remember writing mybachelor thesis thesis, I had
tons of fun doing it, justreading about ikigai, reading
(03:07):
about behavioral activation andlearning about all of these
things that are similar andsometimes are not similar
because maybe, coming from likea, I come from an eastern
background as well that topicobviously is very interesting to
me and having like study hereobviously I am also German
trained in a way, because, likeI do my um university and
(03:30):
education here, um, to become apsychologist.
So I think that really sparksmy interest in it and yeah,
that's how how I came acrossIkigai and I guess like the
topic as well, like you've seenit in bookstores too, like books
about it and like things likethat.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, okay, so was it that, jürgen, you actually
introduced Ikigai to Natanya?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
that's correct and you can call it a fortunate
accident, because I came acrossIkigai.
I can't exactly remember, but Iguess that some algorithm
behind Instagram was the cause.
So I just came across Ikigai.
I found it interesting and Ibought the book by Ken Mogi on
(04:16):
Ikigai to give it to my wifebecause I thought it would be an
interesting read.
Then I opened up the book and Isaw the five principles, and
that gave me goosebumps, becauseimmediately I saw the
similarity between this Easternconcept and the Western strategy
(04:39):
in treatment that I've beenusing a lot during recent years,
which is called behavioralactivation.
So the reasons why we becomeactive are maybe shared
knowledge across cultures, butthey may be termed differently,
and the strategies to arrive ata fulfilling form of activity
(05:06):
different ones, and so I thoughtboth strategies could benefit
from each other and help us tobecome more flexible in finding
our motivations and ikigaimoments and ikigai moments.
So and that was my thinking,but I've enough to do as a
(05:28):
therapist, as a professor, as aresearcher, I would say and then
Natalia asked me for a topic.
So guess what?
I told her what a possibletopic.
I'm actually fortunate that ourmotivations really came
together and Natalia, I must say, is so talented, because it's
(05:55):
quite unusual that a bachelorthesis finally makes it into a
scientific international journalwith external review, which it
did Thanks to.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Natalia.
Well, there you go.
Yeah, I mean a few things onthat is.
I know Ken Moggy's book isbooming in Germany at the moment
.
I think it's a bestseller.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
It's been a bestseller for a number of
months.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And, interestingly, the five pillars are really
Ken's personal theory on Ikigai.
So it's interesting how it doesresonate, I guess, with German
readers.
Oniki Gai so it's interestinghow it does resonate, I guess,
with German readers.
And then, yeah, natanya, I mean, I think writing a paper would
probably be harder than writinga book, with all these citations
(06:35):
and the review process andgetting everything accurate.
So it must have been.
I have this vision.
It must be quite hard.
But was it hard or enjoyable,or both?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
as the author, I think I mean, we're talking
about Ikigai here.
I think it is definitely aprocess.
It was not easy.
It took me some time to likeconvert it, so to say, from my
bachelor thesis to, for mepersonally, also say, also say,
hey, this is something that isgood enough that I think I feel
(07:09):
pretty good about submitting itto the paper, like.
That process was definitely alot harder than just writing a
thesis, for sure, but I do thinkit is something that I enjoy
doing a lot.
So like, even though it's hard,it was something that I enjoy
doing a lot.
So like, even though it's hard,it was something that I
thoroughly enjoy, like I enjoyreading and like just maybe
(07:30):
geeking out a little bit on likewriting it and finding the
right words and how to make myidea come across, and also, like
all of these people that haswritten about it before, like
for them to also get theircredit because, like I can only
write as good as what the peoplebefore me has published and
like has done research on.
(07:51):
I think so, in a way, it kindof reflects my own personal
ikigai in a way for that periodof time.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I mean writing's challenging, but it's definitely
worth doing, and I guess it'smeaning making.
You're expressing yourself,you're expressing this creative
self and pulling all these ideastogether.
So, yeah, it does take effort,but it's rewarding when you, I
guess you finish, and I'm sureit was rewarding when, yeah, the
paper was published.
So, yeah, congratulations toyou both, and perhaps we should
(08:25):
take time to touch on behavioralactivation, what that exactly
means.
So maybe, jürgen, would youlike to touch on that, because I
think you have a strong historywith that, a long history.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, I'm a psychotherapist and I'm
concentrating in research and intreatment on anxiety disorders
and affective disorders, mostimportantly depression and the
treatment concepts fordepression.
Many of them are coming frombehavior therapy and one of them
(09:01):
, the easiest principle, iscalled behavioral activation and
that's been developed in theUnited States by a group around
Peter Lewinson and others likeFirst Reem and others.
Famous depression theoristAaron Beck integrated behavioral
(09:33):
activation in his concept whichhad dominated depression
treatment for decades.
But behavioral activation wasnot attractive.
The basic idea behindbehavioral activation is
depressed people suffer fromdoing too little rewarding
activities, so what would helpthem is increase their
activation rate.
That's really very simplethinking.
(09:56):
But guess how depressed peoplefind that?
I mean it's a little bit ironiceven because that's exactly
what they can't do engage inthings.
And so behavioral activationgot reformulation in the 90s and
beginning 2000 years and thatrethinking of behavioral
(10:20):
activation integrated value work.
So what your values in yourlife that you are really
committed to?
And so there was a shift in theconceptualization of behavioral
activation from just doing morepleasurable things toward
(10:43):
finding committed action foryourself that serve your values,
because you cannot do the wholeday pleasurable things and
definitely not as long as you'redepressed, but if you want to
get back into life, it's veryhelpful to do simple tasks.
(11:03):
After having done them, youwill feel better than before,
and that's really a lifeprinciple grounded on wisdom.
I mean, do your thing, as smallas it might be.
It gives you better feelingsthan not doing it, and that's
(11:27):
the motivational motor withinbehavioral activation.
But how do you find the rightaction?
And that's quite different andI don't think that this is
different from Ikigai differentfrom Ikigai and I don't think
(11:48):
that there are such strategicways within Ikigai like they are
in behavioral activation.
And that is called activitymonitoring and scheduling.
It's a form of an inductivemethod, so you're just
monitoring your daily activitiesand in your activity and mood
protocol you evaluate how yourmood was during and after an
(12:11):
activity.
And doing this avoids what wecall recall bias, because if you
ask a depressed person after aweek if there have been any
enjoyable activities, adepressed person, the mindset is
so.
There have been any enjoyableactivities, a depressed person
the mindset is so negative thatthe person will answer no.
But if you look at activitieswhen they occur, you find out
(12:36):
that not all activities aregiving you bad mood.
Some give you not euphoric orwonderful or happy mood, but
make you feel okay and step bystep, you choose to these kinds
of activities over otheractivities, especially
(12:59):
depressogenic, as we say,activities like withdrawal,
staying in bed, engaging innegative thinking, paying
attention to your own feelingsof insufficiency and things like
that.
So any activity, even on reallysmall matters, are beneficial
(13:21):
compared to just staying in adepressed mood and remaining
passive.
So that's the idea behindbehavioral activation.
It's a well-tested method.
It's as beneficial as the bestbehavioral methods and
treatments, but it's simplerbecause that's the basic idea
(13:42):
and, yeah, we have empiricaldata enough to say that's people
helping out of depression.
Not all of them, of course, butin many cases, even severe
(14:03):
cases, it a close neighbor ofbehavioral activation in the
field of preventing to ever fallinto the depressive hole, so to
say.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
That's what I found attractive of the paper, because
I thought I haven't.
I actually had been looking fora paper on Ikigai related to
depression, whether it can helpwith depression, does it prevent
depression?
And I mean the value idea isinteresting because if I'm a
guest on a podcast, I'll oftenstart by saying Ikigai is all
(14:41):
about you know your values,living in alignment with your
values, and it's obviouslymeaning making.
But you know, if you live inconflict with your values,
whether that's in a job oryou're compromising your values
in a relationship, it's going tobe very hard to feel um ikigai.
So I know we're going to touchon values later.
(15:03):
So thanks for that definition.
Now we might move on to definingikigai, and I know you both did
a lot of reading on this andthere were many citations, and
actually a lot of your citationsrefer to quite a few of these
amazing people who've been on mypodcast, such as Ken Moggy,
(15:23):
chiko Ozawa de Silva, shintaroKono, gordon Matthews, dean Fido
.
So, with all the insights andall the reading you did, natanya
, how would you define ikigai?
Or how did you define ikigai inthe paper?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I think in the paper, because it provides a
systematic comparison to about.
So I try my best to kind oflike stick to the original idea
as close as I could possibly getwith all of the things that
have been published, or likepeople that haven't been defined
how ikigai is, so to say.
But I think I mean if taking italso into context with
(16:02):
behavioral activation I do agreethat ikigai is something that
makes your life worth living,but I think it can also, how
Jorgen and Jovi has alreadytouched on it be value-based.
So I think it is making lifeworth living, but it's not just
randomly trying to make yourlife worth living, but also
living your life according toyour values.
(16:24):
I think I would take it onestep further to say life like
the life you it's worth livingfor, is the life that that you
can live out your values.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yes.
Yeah, I mean Ken Ken in hisbook.
One of the first questions iswhat are your sentimental values
?
And I always thoughtsentimental was like a really
interesting word choice, maybesuggesting the inner child or
this, this, this untainted self,because he didn't say core
values or most important valuesso there's this emotional
(16:59):
connection perhaps ken'stouching on, to your values.
So, yeah, I think that's reallyimportant and I guess sometimes
I reflect and think, wow, thereare millions of people living
their life against their valuesand it's no wonder they're
frustrated and depressed.
And in this modern world, withso much pressure and so much
(17:22):
distraction and almost, it seemsnow, little opportunity to
express our values, it seemsquite hard for us to feel ikigai
, or for many of us, it'sinteresting how, yeah, ikigai
and behavioral activation havethis foundation on values.
So we should touch on the aimof the paper, right?
(17:47):
So I might refer to you again,natanya, and then we might come
back to you again as well.
So, yeah, what was the aim ofthe paper?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I think the aim of the paper was to obviously
provide this parallel, because Ithink it's very interesting how
I mean, through the reading,the way I understand it, ikigai
has existed for a long time andit's even like part of the
everyday, everyday language, soto say so I think it is very
embedded in the culture and,whereas, like, behavioral
(18:17):
activation is like you can alsoalready describe um, something
that is recent, more recent, Ithink, in comparison to ikigai.
So I think the aim is to kind ofput this in parallel and see,
wow, there is this like livephilosophy that has existed for
a long time and then suddenly inthe Western world, there is
(18:40):
this whole idea and then itbecomes psychotherapy method.
So I think the aim is to like,obviously bring that into
parallel and also see, in a way,how can we maybe integrate that
, maybe in therapy, but also inthe prevention, I think.
I think that is the field thatI think is also most interesting
to see how, because ikigai issomething that, if it's really
(19:03):
something that has alreadyexisted and people practice it
in their daily life I mean it'skind of weird to say like
practice ikigai, but let's rollwith it Like they already exist.
Then imagine like the amount ofpeople that would not feel
depressed just because they leada value based life and that
(19:27):
makes their life worth living,and they have all of this like
good feelings.
Imagine that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
So I think like to explore those ideas and like
broaden the perspective also tosee not to maybe be as
psychological minded in a way,but also try to be more like
open up the world for it to toreach more people and reach a
broader audience.
I think that was ultimately theaim for it.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Nice, I mean this often is the case.
Eastern wisdom seems to getlater validated with Western
research.
And I mean ikigai is unique inthat it is used in an everyday
kind of language context.
But most Japanese don't reallytalk about ikigai and it's
something they grow up with,something they intuitively
(20:16):
understand with life experience.
Yet we don't go around sayingit'd be very weird for us to say
, hey, what makes your lifeworth living, or what's your
life purpose, just in a normalcasual conversation, whereas,
okay, you know, occasionally orrarely japanese might say
whereas okay, you know,occasionally or rarely, japanese
might say, oh, yeah, I wouldsay my work is a source of
(20:36):
ikigai or you know, they'll useit very casually.
So it's fascinating how ineastern culture these, these
ideas sort of seem to justevolve from their understanding
of life, for a meaningful life,but in the west we we seem to
have to validate and do someresearch and study and then we
give it a very technical termthat's kind of hard to use in
(20:59):
conversation.
Yeah, would you like to addanything, jürgen, because I
guess this was your idea,perhaps to?
Oh, let's compare these twoconcepts.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, yeah it is.
It was my idea, thanks, yeah.
Well, one of the many aims ofthe paper was ultimately to
bring researchers together tounite their efforts.
I mean it would make much senseto discuss the core meanings as
(21:30):
well of Western values and ofIkigai experiences in a united
form of research.
And when I started PEPA, ofcourse, I had a dream, and the
dream is that researchers fromthe West and from the East would
try to ask people what is yourIkigai or what's the reason why
(21:53):
you get up in the morning?
And if you ask a thousandpeople, I think it's too little.
It should be a thousand,because psychology research aims
at giving representativeanswers that are true for the
majority of people.
And that would be a complicatedresearch because the answers
will be very, very different andwe would have to categorize
(22:17):
them and we would learn so muchfrom these answers.
And we would learn it for thetheory of well-being.
How do people generatewell-being?
With their own actions, notbeing angry about politics or
others, but just looking attheir own action and directing
(22:39):
their attention to what they canachieve, what they could do
with their own life.
And I think that's a veryimportant part of mental health
at all, and discussing this is,of course, one of the most
interesting topics you canchoose, and, while I'm convinced
that research from the West canlearn from those ideas and
(23:02):
researchers in the East, too,could benefit from discussing
their ideas with Western-liketherapists or therapy
researchers, that's the idea,one of the ideas which you
always hope that if you write ajournal article, you always hope
that it might stimulatesomebody out there.
I'm very grateful that youinvited us to the podcast, at
(23:29):
least this time.
It's a paper that doesn't havean effect.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It is.
I mean, it is quite bizarre.
I never imagined I'd bereaching out to academics and
researchers and saying, hey,would you want to talk about
life meaning and Ikigai?
But I love it.
And I do love that idea ofbringing, yeah, researchers
together and share ideas andthemes and perspectives from
different cultural perspectives,idea of bringing um, yeah,
researchers together and shareideas and themes and
perspectives from differentcultural perspectives, and I
(23:57):
actually did a nikki guy summitlast year.
So I'd like to do that againand be great to do that in
person, perhaps in in japan.
But when I think about ikigaiand when I discuss it and your
well-being well-being comes up,and for me this is almost a word
that articulates like this isJapan's version of positive
psychology in one word,encapsulated in one word, and
(24:21):
these themes of lifesatisfaction, you know,
relationships, a sense offreedom, a bright future,
meaning and value.
It's fascinating and theresearch is seemingly endless
and more and more papersappearing.
So, yeah, it's great we cantalk about this and we should
(24:41):
talk about this, and I think wedon't.
You know, most people don'thave these conversations.
They only have theseconversations perhaps at a
workshop or if they need help.
We don't sit down with ourfamilies or friends and we're
usually talking about how upsetwe are that our sports team lost
(25:04):
a match or our negative things.
We need to get things off ourchest.
So I agree totally thatdiscussing this is really
important.
And to move on, yeah, this ideaof the practice of behaviour
activation or ikigai sounds alittle bit unusual, but I guess
(25:25):
people do Japanese do pursuetheir ikigai, you know, maybe on
the weekends or in theirrelationships or in their
private time.
So we could say it's somethingyou practice.
So can you walk us through howbehavioral activation and Ikigai
are practiced in this contextof treatment or therapy?
(25:47):
Yeah, who would like to touchon that?
Yeah, who would like to touchon that?
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I think Jürgen should touch on that, as he has more
experience on the therapy fields.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
I think yeah, before I start, I have to say that what
I learn, I do learn fromdepressed patients, not from
like friends or people who arehealthy and who are in my social
network.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
I learn it from my patients.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
So this we have to keep in mind.
But still, I do learn from them, and what I learn is how to
become not just motivated.
That's quite inherent inbehavioral activation, because
during activity monitoring andscheduling, you find out what
brings you like enjoyment, butalso the feeling that you did
(26:45):
something that really was anexpression of your commitment to
your values.
That's not the only thing,because depressed persons will
obviously, if they start anaction, have negative comments
on it.
Why am I doing this?
Well, actually it doesn't feelas good as I thought it would.
(27:06):
Other people will not noticethings like that.
People will not notice thingslike that, so there will be
these negative attentionalprocesses which a colleague of
mine whom I admire, adrian Wells, called the cognitive attentive
syndrome.
So that explains why peopletend to ruminate and keep on
(27:29):
worrying, though it doesn'treally help anybody.
And ikigai means you not onlyask the right question, but you
only know something from yourinside how to do it, because it
gives you focus and care duringyour actions.
(27:49):
This is something that we inbehavioral activation teach
patients.
So become concentrated on whatyou're doing, keep attention to
what you're doing.
If you decided to do it, thentry to become present in that
moment, Sharing time with yourchildren, that's good, but are
(28:10):
you really there?
Or are you in such a cognitiveattentive syndrome thinking
about something else, your, yourown insufficience and your work
obligations, and what otherpeople said and what other
people expecting, and so on?
Are you really there?
And this seems to me, uh, to bean inherent in in ikigai,
(28:34):
because, if you know, today Iwant to share time with my
children.
So you can ask yourself am Isharing time or am I in my head
somewhere else?
So that's what we learn duringtreatment.
We see people take on actionand then they come back to
(28:54):
treatment and they say, well, Idid it, but it didn't feel quite
good.
Then, of course, the typicalquestion of the therapist is
what did you really do?
Have you been really there whensharing time with your kids?
And then maybe they are saying,well, yes, I was there, my body
(29:14):
was there, but I had not.
And Ikigai would give thisdifferent shape, a different
flair.
So you could ask am I reallythere?
Am I really doing what Idecided to do?
And so this spin towards youraction, that could be a nice
(29:35):
import from Ikigai, so to say.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
That's a valid point.
And now I'm thinking of theword engagement.
I guess you do engage with yourIkigai because it's meaningful,
it's based on your values,especially in a role you know if
you really value a role as aparent or a friend or a
researcher.
Yeah, you'll engage in that andyou'll be so.
(30:01):
Present time will disappear,but it also seems like we suffer
from this insanity ofruminating on the past or
worrying about the future, andwe can get into these cycles
where we're wasting hours oftime remembering something that
upset us and it's like we'reinsane.
(30:22):
So, yeah, it's all veryinteresting and Ikigai does
offer us this alternative way tothink about oh, how can I get
through the tough times in mylife?
But it does sound a little oddor unnatural to say practice
Ikigai.
But it is something we canpractice.
And it reminds me of one of myguests, trudy Boyle, amazing
(30:45):
woman, on episode 39.
And she said Ikigai is a callto action.
I love that.
And Ken Moggy talks about theidea of how Ikigai responds to
proactiveness.
You've got to get up and dosomething.
It responds to that you willfeel Ikigai.
So, yeah, this is interesting.
(31:05):
So did you get that feeling,natanya?
Like oh, ikigai is not thispassive thing.
It's this proactive type of Idon't know what you call it
well-being, self-well-being orself-prescribed well-being Is
that the right way to say it?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Yeah, I think I do get the feeling that Ikigai is
this proactive way on doingthings and I think it is
fascinating for me to see thatyou cannot just feel good if you
just stand there and do nothing.
I think the closeness to thiscall to action is very
(31:49):
fascinating to do so.
Call to action, it's veryfascinating to do so and I think
, especially in looking at thecontext of this world, like you
said, like this insanity of thisworld where you're kind of feed
, like information is feed toyou like nothing else in, like
the last I don't know, like thelast century, like the amount of
information you got feed in, Ithink it's also absolutely
(32:12):
insane.
So, like that proactiveness tobring to like selectively decide
and intentionally choose.
This is how I want to live mylife, this is how I want to do
my life.
I think that is the core of itat the end, like that
intentionality of it, that Iguess intentionality and the
engagement of how you do yourlife and also like the
(32:34):
information that you receive andlike things like that and what
to do with it.
I think it is definitely that,and also I'm referring to what
Juergen said earlier about howsorry I lost.
I lost my point there a littlebit.
I was again, I'll put my handand I was like wait, what was I
about to say?
Um, um, about how asking theright question each morning,
(32:59):
right, like what you get up,what do you want to do, and like
the intentionality behind it, Ithink is definitely what really
guides it.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah, anyone who knows ikigai knows
it's often expressed as thething that gets you out of bed
in the morning.
But I remember listening to apodcast between two Japanese
talking about it, and one ofthem said actually you know what
?
It's not what gets you out ofbed in the morning, it's what
you look forward to getting outof bed the next day, to getting
(33:31):
out of bed the next day.
So that could infer intention,or almost this anticipatory
pleasure or enjoyment ofthinking about ah, tomorrow I've
got this to look forward to.
And ikigai is tied to futureperspective as well.
I think you would have read alittle bit about me called
Kamiya, and tying ikigaiinvolves your perception of the
(33:55):
future.
So even if you're depressed nowor struggling now, if you have
goals to look forward to orthings to look forward to that
can give you that focus orawareness and pull you out of
that depressive state that'scalled reward anticipating in
psychological depressionresearch or in emotional
research, reward anticipatingthat's something that keeps you
(34:18):
going If you know it's going tobe great next time.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
you keep being motivated.
So it's an active process,which is disordered or disturbed
once you become depressed,because during depression you
think it's going on like it istoday, so I'm gonna be feeling
sad next time too, which is notcorrect.
You will feel next time may begreat, as long as you anticipate
(34:46):
it in your mind.
So it's also about generatingpositive fantasies about your
action there.
You go.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
So it's all in our mind.
It's fascinating how ouremotions and feelings, our state
, how we communicate can beinfluenced what's going on in
our mind.
We can be compassionate andkind if we've got something
positive in our mind, and thenwe can be aggressive and offhand
and snappy if we've gotsomething positive in our mind,
and then we can be aggressiveand offhand and snappy if we've
got some negative thought.
So it really matters to bepresent and aware, and I guess
(35:24):
now we could touch on perhapssome of the similarities you
uncovered between behaviouractivation and ikigai, and maybe
even some of the differencesmight help.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean it's really striking the idea with the small
steps and the idea of startingsmall.
This is so central tobehavioral therapy.
It's a basic idea of behavioraltherapy since decades and that
comes out of this experiencebecause the logic is quite clear
(36:02):
If you start small, you willstart successfully, you will
start with a success.
If you start large, you takethe risk of failing and that
will not motivate you.
So having the experience thatsomething works and you can do
(36:22):
it, that's really motivating andthat's even increasing
motivation, and then you canstart doing it better next time,
or larger or whatever.
But that's the way you bringthings motivationally into life.
And so that seems to be a basicprinciple and in my experience
(36:44):
as a therapist I've always beenusing this and it's
paradoxically.
I mean I remember having treateda manager from a German company
and his goal was to become theCEO of that company.
His goal was to become the CEOof that company.
(37:04):
I guess the company is so largeit's maybe even well-known
abroad, I don't know.
But then I told him the logicof starting small, because he
was depressed severely afterhaving had brain tumor surgery
(37:25):
and it was not realistic tostill become what he wanted
before.
And so I told him the logic oftaking on small steps and I was
afraid that he would be likedisappointed, that he would be
like disappointed.
So the expectation totherapists is that they're even
(37:49):
more wise than you are and theyhave the overall sensational
solution maybe.
And I'm a professor and I toldhim well, I don't have any
sensational solution at all.
I have the most mundanesolution, which is start small,
start with small steps.
(38:10):
And well, we had a sensationalsuccess in that kind of therapy.
He stopped his career, actually, and I mean, in other words, he
found his ikigai.
He moved completely out ofoffice, changed the office,
began a different thing.
I asked him what are the thingsthat you really would like to
(38:35):
do, given that you cannot becomethe CEO?
And he said well, actually, Ilove, really love, hunting,
being out, being out in thewoods, oh, really, and that's
what he did among other things.
Okay, well, that's, I guess, asimilarity, and I guess that's
(39:01):
something that is global wisdomIf you want to restart your life
, you cannot start large.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Just in rehabilitation treatment.
I mean, you had a broken leg.
Yeah, yeah, you start small.
(39:36):
Taking the first step again isa great experience.
It signals you're on the righttrack and I mean that's
something that people arechecking constantly.
That's how self-regulationworks.
We're always checking are we onthe right track?
And if you take on small steps,this checking process is easier
and the feedback from thechecking process will more often
(39:56):
be yes, you are, you can dothat, you're not failing.
Go on, how does that feel?
It feels good.
So that's one similarity.
And there's another similarity,which is the principle of doing
things with awareness and withhigh quality.
(40:18):
I mean, that's what I talkedpreviously about.
It's not just doing the action,but with awareness, with
commitment and with a certainemotional deepness.
And as long as that exists, youwill enjoy the action, even if
(40:39):
it's not typically positive orpleasurable action.
Just having your tax taxapplication done you fulfillment
if you, if you do it, reliefwithout feelings of Feelings of
anger and feeling under timepressure, yeah, you can do it in
(41:05):
a relaxed way.
And so those are thesimilarities.
I'm not clear, but if Ispeculate on the dissimilarities
, I guess that's something thatyou already mentioned, nick that
in Japanese culture you can askyour neighbor so how about your
(41:25):
ikigai today?
What is it that you'recommitted to today?
That's unusual in the West.
So reflecting on your ikigaiseems to be embedded in the
Japanese culture in a very wiseand healthy way, and it does not
(41:46):
seem so in the Western culture.
Maybe our podcast cancontribute to that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
It's interesting that this idea of yeah, we've
touched on doing things,starting small, which obviously
Ken Moggy writes about verypowerful concepts, and he does
say in the West we have thisall-or-nothing attitude, yeah,
so it's applicable, it's like auniversal concept.
You can apply it to everything.
And then the idea of doingthings well or with care.
(42:16):
There's actually a Japaneseexpression called chanto suru
and you know my wife's alwaystelling me to do things properly
.
I remember when my son I have a20-year-old son, but when he
was a young child my wife would,when we lived in Japan, if we
had visitors, she would take himby the hand to the door and say
like chanto aisatsu, shite ne,and greet our guests properly.
(42:40):
And this word chanto, we don'toften say do this properly, do
that properly.
So Japanese do have thislexicon of words.
They're very powerful andthey're used in a daily context.
But what I found reallyinteresting was one of the case
studies on a Japanese living inGermany.
So, ditanji, do you want totouch on this case study?
(43:03):
I guess this young 23-year-oldJapanese architect student and,
ironically, ikigai helped them.
Yeah, do you want to touch onthat?
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Or should I do this because it was my treatment?
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's better because that was
based off on that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I actually really love group treatment because the
principles of behavioractivation can be taught in a
group as easy as in anindividual treatment and you do
reach much more people, but thebackground of the people is
quite different.
So if you try to teach theprinciples to a group of Germans
and there's somebody from Asiaamong the patients, maybe it's
(43:53):
not so easy for the person toaccommodate to the principles.
And once we found out thatthere's a similarity that I can
say well, basically it's verymuch the same like finding your
ikigai, and you can try to findyour ikigai even when you're
(44:13):
depressed.
It will not help immediately,but depression does not mean
that you cannot follow yourikigai.
And as long as you can followyour ikigai despite your
depression, depression will losepower over you.
And that was really like ooh.
(44:39):
I mean at that moment thepatient got it like a an
epiphany you can follow up yourpast despite your feelings or
your mood, as long as you knowwhat your icky guy is yeah, that
was interesting reading that.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I was like, oh wow, this japanese person, student
away from home, struggling withtheir well-being, and I mean,
obviously it probably took morethan this, but I was this um
trigger that made them realize,oh, I can, can still find
meaning, I can still do thingsthat are worthwhile.
That will.
(45:19):
That obviously impacted theirwell-being in a positive way.
After they framed it as ikigaiNatalia, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Sorry, no, sorry, I didn't quite realize you weren't
quite done yet, but no, justlike adding into it a little bit
.
I think the idea of likebriefly also mentioned it about
like the whole, like culturalbridging and like things like
that, I think how, if it's likesomething that is spoken in your
mother tongue, in a way, likethis idea that was spoken near
to you, I think that reallydefinitely enhanced that as well
(45:52):
, like the whole treatment andthings like that, especially
with you know, it's somethinglike oh, I know, that's from
home yeah, yeah no, just addingthat yeah it would ground you,
comfort you as well yeah yeah,so that's that was interesting.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
So, going back to your paper, in the paper as a
subheading, you ask the questionis there a cross-cultural
transfer?
So would you like to answerthat?
Uh, natanya, between, obviouslybetween the two concepts.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I think, um, the whole idea about
cross-cultural transfer I findfascinating because, like again,
it's like the ideas, okay, theyexist, but okay, obviously,
like culture, um, influence thatas well.
I think I think, especially ina time we live now, the whole
hybrid of culture and especiallywith the internet and
(46:44):
everything, the hybrid of theculture even though we don't
want to say that they don'texist, they exist this hybrid of
culture, young people, thehybrid of culture between the
Eastern and the Western, it'snot as distinctive anymore.
So I think finding a way tointegrate that could be one way
to also like accommodate, tolike the next generation,
(47:07):
because you might never knowwhat this generation received
from the internet, right, youdon't know, like, what kind of
people they're talking to with.
It's very much possible, likehow we're doing this podcast
right now.
You know like this whole ideaof that.
So I think cross-culturaltransfer, in a way, I think
without us even realizing it, Ithink it is already happening.
So, like the idea of, likebehavioral activation and nikki
(47:30):
guy and like things like that,without us even realizing, or
like there's like a systematic,more intentional way of
integrating that like I feellike subconsciously it's already
happening and we're just nowrealizing it.
Oh, it's happening now.
Oh, wow, there's more peoplethat maybe relate with more
eastern wisdom or more um, maybe, like east people with eastern
(47:54):
background, now relates more forsomething more western or more
eastern, in a way yeah, yeah,totally, yeah, totally yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
I mean, it's interesting A lot of the
Japanese words that becomepopular.
Wabi-sabi is a really good one.
Wabi-sabi is something yousense, you feel from an
aesthetic of nature or pottery,and then in the West it's sort
of become this idea of livingthe imperfect life and accepting
(48:21):
your own flaws.
And the same with kintsugi.
Kintsugi is this way to repairpottery, and Japanese would only
understand it as that.
It's this golden lacquer to youknow, pull pieces of pottery
together that have been broken.
But even in the West now it'ssort of embraced as oh, your
(48:44):
scars sort of add to your lifeand you're, um, if you, if
you're broken and you come backtogether, you're, you're
stronger and more beautiful.
So there is this sort oftransfer, even if it's a little
bit lost in translation, whichyeah, as it usually happens.
Yeah, sometimes that happensinteresting, yeah, and maybe
(49:06):
that's in some ways beneficial.
But, um, yeah, mickey guycertainly got lost in
translation, as you guys wouldknow, so it's good to see people
um research it and maybe notonly lost, but also maybe
transformed a little bit alittle bit more so, yeah, this
(49:27):
is fascinating how, um somewords seem to stick and we we
fall in love with them orembrace them.
I guess.
Going back to what I was reallyinterested in was it's
obviously established thatbehavioral activation has
continuously been demonstratedin psychotherapy to treat
(49:47):
depression effectively acrossdifferent cultures.
So my question is probably toyou, jürgen are you confident
that the same can be said forikigai?
Could it be treated as apsychotherapy to treat
depression in various cultures?
Speaker 1 (50:04):
Actually, that's something that Natalia and I are
touching on now, Because thenext step for us seems to be how
can we promote prevention ofdepression?
How can we promote preventionof depression?
And Iggy Guy is obviouslynothing that has been developed
(50:27):
as a treatment.
In my view, it's a helpful andhealthy strategy to look on life
and my actions in life.
It's just raising the rightquestion.
(50:48):
As I say, I would say, it's nota thing that you can grasp.
It's more a process of askingquestions and checking out if
you're on the right track infinding your Ikigai of today or
of the year of your life, and sothat's something that people
should have the privilege toadhere to, and I'm very
(51:13):
optimistic that this could workin prevention.
So my vision would be don'tlaugh.
My vision would be don't laugh.
My vision would be to teach theIkigai approach in German
schools Fantastic white thinkingagainst too much doubt and a
(51:42):
form of teaching individuality,a form of like confidently stay
with yourself, and that'ssomething that adolescents need
a lot.
That's my vision.
That's what I'm optimisticabout.
I wouldn't say that it wouldadd too much to behavioral
(52:05):
activation, except in thosecases which we mentioned in the
article, but as a form of healthprevention for everybody.
I see it to be really, really,really beneficial.
I'm very optimistic about itand I'm really keen and very
optimistic about it and I'mreally keen on learning more
about it.
I'm looking forward to my firsttrip to Japan.
(52:28):
I want to see Japan in my life.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
It's interesting you mention that because I met
actually a German I'll say hisfirst name because he won't mind
Martin who joined one of mycohorts just recently.
I actually met him in Japanvery briefly for a coffee and he
was sort of interested in oneof my programs.
And he said later after histrip, he said you know, when we
(52:59):
met you, Nick, we were kind ofsceptical because we were in
Tokyo, all these salary men, allthis noise and hustle and
bustle and stress.
We thought, oh, is this ickyguy thing real?
And then he said it was onlyreally when we went outside of
the big cities that we saw it inpeople.
We saw it in, you know, thesepeople working on their own
(53:23):
vegetable gardens or thesepeople who really enjoyed having
them as guests at you know,ryokans or airbnbs.
And yeah, if you want to seeikigai, I definitely recommend
you can go to the big cities andhave a bit of fun, but you'll
see it truly alive in the ruralareas of Japan.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
And that's something I really enjoy.
My wife's from a small town,and so when I get back there
it's really nice to be away fromthat would be a nice research
question too, by the way.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (54:03):
Your friends of Ikigai and Ruru in Japan.
Yeah yeah, worldwide, I meanthat's interesting because
Ikigai.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Up until now, the research in Japan has really
been restricted to the elderly.
And what will Japanese do afterretirement?
And most of the studies aredone based on this idea of ah,
what do we do with our retireesor our elderly who are quite
still healthy, but they're justnot active in the community.
Yeah, so there's a lot toresearch.
(54:32):
I mean, is there another paperin this for you, natanya?
Speaker 3 (54:37):
um, in the field of ikea union, or I mean in there's
.
Right now I don't have anythingplanned, but who knows, I might
be inspired after this, wemight be inspired after this,
and then there'll be moreresearch on it.
That's just how research works,you know.
Sometimes you talk to people,bounce off each idea and then
(54:58):
suddenly you have that.
Speaker 1 (55:01):
If there was a grant and an invitation to Japan.
Natalia, she's really excellentand really a talent for any
scientific group and anyuniversity.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
I don't mind.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Actually, I'm having a webinar with Dr Dean Fido and
Dr Yasuhiro Katera next week andwe're trying to generate some
funding so that they can do moreresearch.
So, yeah, I think more research, especially on can it prevent
depression, would be awesome.
(55:40):
So, hopefully, yeah, I mean I'mfinding more and more papers on
Ikigai, everything from robotdesign like how do you design
social or care robots to remindthe people they serve of their
Ikigai to, obviously, what youguys put together.
(56:01):
So the learning.
I guess the research and thelearning never ends.
But let's end on a personalnote.
What about you guys?
What are some of your sourcesof Ikigai?
Speaker 3 (56:14):
I think, if I think about that question, the first
thing that comes to my mind ishaving good coffee with good
friends and like having amazingconversation, honestly, like
that is something that gets meso excited.
Um, but that's a more um, and Ithink if I do that, I'm like I
go out of these likeconversation, meeting with
(56:36):
friends and like things likethat.
I'm like life's good.
But but other than that, Ithink I do.
Like I mentioned in thebeginning, I do really enjoy
doing research and writing andreading and lots of things like
that, and also like how to, Iguess, open up the world to like
more broader or like certainconcepts, especially in like
(56:56):
psychology and like things likethat, opening up to like more
broader people, and like how tohelp, ultimately, how to like
help people in a impactful way.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
I think yeah I mean, it is very much tied to our
social world, but it also can bea private pursuit, but it also
can be where you feel of service.
So it's very multi-faceted,yeah, and even in in Japan, in
Japan they actually have theycall them health and ikigai
(57:26):
creation advisors, and ikigai isframed as first-person
perspective, so what you do foryourself as hobbies or interests
, second-person perspective withthis social ikigai, things you
do with your partner, with yourfamily, with your friends.
And then third person, which is, I guess, community or service.
(57:48):
So perhaps having, yeah, one ofthose or a couple of those
ikigais, or maybe hundreds,would certainly make life feel
worth living yeah what about you, Jürgen?
What are some sources of Ikigaifor you?
Speaker 1 (58:04):
Yeah, well, that's a form of first and second person
Ikigai that I want to mention.
For me, I'm sure, a committedteacher and researcher and even
more a committed father, and Itry to be a good friend to some
people.
(58:24):
But a few years ago I askedmyself, or I felt that there is
something which is unfulfilledin my life.
As a musician, I'm a dilettante.
I can play the guitar a littlebit.
I don't think I can sing, butothers say, well, you can.
(58:45):
And I began writing songs, ohnice.
And then I made up my mind andI thought, well, I want to have
these songs recorded, awesome.
And that really made me, I wasreally frightened.
A little bit when I called aprofessional and I had to play,
(59:09):
I had to wrap my USB stick andplay the music, and then he
began headbanging a little bitand said well, that's a song, I
can record it if you want.
And so that's An Icky Guy.
And so my first album came outwhen I was 64.
Congratulations.
(59:30):
So I'm a young musician.
My second album will appear bythe end of this month, and
Natalia will be.
She's invited to the recordpolice party.
So that's that's I.
I was always dreamed of makingmore music, and, and now I found
(59:55):
a way to do this together withsome professional musicians.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
You've inspired me because I play guitar too, yeah
you could dive deeper into that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
You can try to find the careless responders on
Spotify.
That's basically it.
The main songwriter is calledSugarpill, and you guess who
that is All right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Well, we might add a link.
We can add a link from the shownotes to your music, to your
albums, as well as the paper.
Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
That would be cool.
Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
But yeah, if people want to reach out to you, we'll
probably.
I don't think you guys have anywebsites, but I'll put the
paper in the show notes.
We can put social media if youlike, and we'll link to your
music.
Yeah, thank you very much foryour time today and thank you
for writing this paper togetherand it's definitely worth
(01:00:56):
reading.
And, yeah, maybe we'll have youboth back on again when you've
perhaps explored Ikigai as apreventative measure to
depression.
Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Thank you for having us and for inviting us.
It was a pleasure and it waslovely to get to chat with you.
Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Likewise, it really was Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Thanks a lot for having us.
My pleasure and we'll do itagain.
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