August 31, 2025 • 42 mins
What if work wasn't something we simply endured, but instead became a vibrant source of meaning and purpose? Kensuke Yamamoto, senior consultant at Vanto Group, joins us to challenge the deeply ingrained assumption that work must be an obligation rather than a wellspring of fulfillment.
Against the backdrop of Japan's evolving business landscape—where 99.7% of companies are small and medium enterprises facing unprecedented demographic challenges—Kensuke reveals how the concept of ikigai (life purpose) can transform workplace cultures. Drawing from his experience implementing high-performance initiatives across Japanese organizations, he explores the striking contrast between Western individualistic approaches to job satisfaction and the Japanese emphasis on finding meaning through relationships, harmony, and contribution to others.
Delving into Vanto Group's groundbreaking methodology, Kensuke illuminates how changing the way situations "occur" to people fundamentally shifts their actions and engagement. Using the powerful metaphor of three bricklayers—one merely laying bricks, another building a wall, and a third constructing a cathedral—he demonstrates how vision and purpose elevate ordinary tasks into meaningful contributions. The conversation weaves together Japanese concepts like yarigai (sense of meaning in tasks), hatarakigai (fulfillment from the work environment), and ibasho (psychological belonging) to paint a comprehensive picture of what truly enables people to thrive at work.
Whether you're leading a team, reimagining your organization's culture, or seeking greater meaning in your own career, this conversation offers profound insights into creating workplaces where both people and results flourish. Join us as we explore how intentional dialogue about purpose can transform obligation into opportunity, and how the integration of ikigai principles might just be the key to sustainable business success in our rapidly changing world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I believe the biggest barrier is the deeply ingrained
, often unconscious, assumptionthat work is something you just
endure or something you do outof necessity to make a living.
When this mindset takes root,people tend to close off their
own potential and accept a senseof obligation as the norm.
(00:24):
Potential and accept a sense ofobligation as the norm.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Kensuke
Yamamoto, a senior consultant atVanto Group, a boutique global
consulting firm servingcorporations, organizations and
institutions in a variety ofindustry and fields and
institutions in a variety ofindustry and fields.
Kentsuke specializes increating new relationships with
(00:52):
prospective clients in Japan tosupport them in implementing
high-performance initiatives andenabling them to achieve
unprecedented business resultswithin their organizations.
Prior to joining Vanto Group,kinski held sales roles in
active pharmaceuticalingredients and has extensive
experience in the pharmaceuticalindustry.
Kinski holds a bachelor'sdegree in economics from the
(01:15):
University of California Davis,and Kinski is a three-time
Ironman triathlete finisher andwinner of the Ironman Bittan in
his age group in 2012.
So that's very impressive.
Welcome to the podcast, kensuke.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Hello.
Thank you very much for thisinvitation, Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
My pleasure.
It was good to meet you, solet's share that story.
We met through our mutualfriend, ken Moggi, at a dinner
at the University of Tokyo in Ithink it was in May.
Ken is a fun, playful thoughtleader.
He's also a celebrityneuroscientist and you connected
(01:58):
with Ken through Ikigai.
So do you want to share howthat came about?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes, so do you want to share how that came about?
Yes, so there's a magazinecalled Nikkei Top Leader, and
last year they held acommemorative event for their
40th anniversary.
Professor Mogi Mogi Sensei wasa speaker at the event and I
(02:23):
attended as a participant.
He spoke about Ikigai andbusiness management, and what he
shared was highly compatiblewith the Bantam Group methods.
That's how our connection began.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I see, when I arrived , you were talking to Ken and so
I met you.
We had a good chat and we gotto know each other and we've
stayed in contact.
So, yeah, it's really good tohave you on the podcast today.
So let's talk about yourbackground.
Would you like to share somebackground?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yes.
So regarding my family, soright now I live in Kawasaki
City with my wife andtwo-year-old son.
I'm originally from TakasagoCity in Hyogo Prefecture, a town
with a rich history that's alsoknown for the no-play Takasago.
(03:18):
I spent 18 years there beforemoving to Osaka at age 18 to
study chemistry at KansaiUniversity.
So in the first year, in thefall of my first year, a friend
recommended that I read RyotaroShiba, very famous writer Shiba
(03:39):
Ryotaro no Ryomagayuku that'sthe title.
That book had a profound impacton me.
I strongly felt that I wantedto break through the stagnation
of the times, just like Ryomadid.
At the time, japan was in theaftermath of the bubble, economy
(04:02):
collapsed and although globalrelations were being widely
discussed, there was a sense ofinertia and lack of progress
Amid the atmosphere.
I dared to broaden myperspective by going abroad.
I began to grow and I made thedecision to study up overseas.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I see Ryoma Gayuku translates to Ryoma goes his way
.
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I'm not sure, but there's an English version, I
believe.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, I've just checked it, so that's what I
think it means.
So, in a way, you decided to goyour own way and you went to
the USS.
So how did living in the USinfluence your life?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yes, what I'm most proud of is that for nearly five
years, I fully committed myselfto both academics and triathlon
.
While living abroad, I studiedfrom a place where I could
barely speak the language,constantly faced the reality of
(05:12):
my own limitations and stillnever gave up.
I stayed true to pursuing bothintellectual and physical
excellence until the very endintellectual and physical
excellence until the very end.
By the way, in Japanese culturewe have a concept called Bunbu
(05:36):
Ryodo, which literally means thedual path of pen and sword.
It comes from the way of thesamurai, not only mastering
academics, but also maintainingstrengths in martial arts, and
in my interpretation, thatincludes modern sports as well.
That way of life, striving inboth mind and body, is how I
(06:02):
choose to live.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I love it.
I love Bushido philosophy.
So Ryodo means both paths.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, Ryodo means both pathways.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Bun means literature and Bu means martial arts.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So that's very inspiring, kensuke.
You went to a different country, you couldn't speak the
language and you excelledacademically and also did these
triathlons, which are verychallenging.
Do you still exercise today?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yes, not much, but yes, I do swimming a few times
in a month and also for a week.
I do convict conditioning.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Convict conditioning?
I think you told me so.
Is that what they do in theprison system?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yes, something like that.
So in the prison there's no youknow, waiting machine or
everything equipment.
That's why they use theirweight to do push-ups, pull-ups,
leg raises and et cetera.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Largely body weight activities.
Body weight exercises, yes, butyou're not a convict, are you
Not convict?
Okay, so well, let's talk aboutthe business landscape in japan
.
That's where you are, you're in, in business, and I think when
(07:33):
people think about business injapan or business brands, they
think of brands such as sony,toyota, yamaha and nintendo.
All these brands come to mind,but I recently discovered that
most businesses in Japan aresmall to medium enterprises.
Would you like to touch on that?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yes, so, as you said, yes, in fact, small and
medium-sized enterprises SMEsmake up 99.7% of all companies
in Japan.
This is a reference to the 2024white paper by the Small and
(08:13):
Medium Enterprise Agency.
So this is the official data.
So, from manufacturing toservice industries, they play a
vital role in supportingregional economies.
That's why SMEs are absolutelyessential when discussing the
landscape of Japanese business.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's amazing 99.7%.
So that's like almost all yesand I recently watched a
documentary about this anddiscovered that japan's small
and medium-sized enterprises, sosmes, face a multitude of
(08:57):
challenges, including an agingworkforce, high operation costs,
difficulty financing, a lack ofdigitalization, all which
threaten their sustainabilityand growth.
So would you like to touch onthis?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yes, exactly as you said.
Japan's small and medium-sizedenterprises SMEs are currently
facing numerous challenges.
Among them, labor shortages andaging populations are
particularly serious.
Looking at the labor shortagefrom a broader perspective, a
(09:36):
recent report showed that only680,000 babies were born in 2024
, which is last year.
30 years ago, that number was 1million, so this gives us a
clear picture of how decliningbirth rates will impact the
(09:57):
future workforce.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, this is interesting.
I think everyone knows Japanhas this aging population,
declining birth rate.
Then there's also obviouslythis small to medium enterprises
where there's no ascension orno inherit, like no one's
inheriting these businessesbecause a lot of children take
on different jobs.
(10:20):
So it's quite a significantproblem.
I think there's something about.
Is it called the seller's jobmarket?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah.
So let me explain the currentlythe job market situation.
So right now, Japan's jobmarket is sellers.
So Japan has a unique hiringsystem known as Shinsotsu Saiyo,
which is the new graduate onlynew graduate recruitment, and
(11:19):
the job opening to applicantsratio for 2025 university
graduate is now 1.75.
Just the other day, I heardfrom an SME owner who said that
preference for big-namecompanies among job seekers is
growing.
(11:39):
Large corporations areaggressively hiring, taking in
(12:01):
SMEs, and they are competingover a very small pool of
candidates.
So in this environment,building a truly attractive
company and communicating thateffectively to the public is
more important than ever to thepublic is more important than
ever.
I believe this is one of thekey challenges SMEs must tackle.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So all the talent, new talent or all these
university graduates end upcompeting for positions in
larger companies in major cities, and then these SMEs are
missing on, I guess the bestgraduates or the most
knowledgeable graduates, andthen what's left over they're
competing with.
But SMEs make up 99.7% ofbusiness, so it should be the
(12:49):
opposite.
All these graduates should begoing to SMEs.
But I guess the allure or theattraction of a big company is
exciting for graduates.
They want to work for a bigcompany, get a good salary.
I guess there's brand value ifwe talk about Sony or Toyota,
and so I think this is where youhelp in your business, and
(13:10):
maybe we'll talk about that alittle bit later.
Over the last decades, I think,Japan's workplace culture has
dramatically changed.
So how has workplace culture?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
changed in Japan in the past several decades.
So over the past few decades,japan's workplace culture has
undergone significant change.
In the past, lifetimeemployment and seniority-based
promotion were the norm and erawhen people were expected to
dedicate their lives to thecompany, but today, more and
(13:47):
more individuals value their owntime and seek meaningful work.
This shift is especiallyevident among younger
generations, who tend toprioritize dialogue and empathy
over rigid hierarchies.
I feel that if organizationsdon't adapt to this cultural
(14:10):
change, they'll struggle toretain talent.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So this is interesting.
Younger Japanese are wantingwork that's, I guess, more
meaningful, where they havedialogue and empathy and not
this rigid hierarchy of, I guess, what was tradition, especially
seniority-based promotion,where simply because you get
older you get promoted ratherthan your skills or contribution
(14:34):
.
And so you think this.
You know businesses must changewith this cultural change.
So yeah, Japan was famous forlifetime employment.
That was like the trade-off Ifyou work for our company, we'll
give you lifetime employment, sowork hard, and then, when you
retire, give you lifetimeemployment, so work hard, and
then when you retire, you canenjoy retirement.
(14:56):
But that's changed.
Traditional aspects of longworking hours, I think, still
remain in Japan, but there isthis growing emphasis on
work-life balance, flexible workarrangements and a focus on
employee well-being.
And I know this change isdriven by government initiatives
evolving employee attitudes andcompanies adapting to attract
(15:20):
and retain talent in thecompetitive market you just
talked about, but I'm not sure Ibelieve it.
So is it really true?
Are Japanese working fewerhours?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yes, that's true.
Japanese working hours havedefinitely decreased over the
past few decades.
Let me explain.
Back in the 1970s, the averagewas over 2,200 hours per year,
but now it has dropped to the1600-hour range.
(15:53):
This shift is largely due towork style reforms and efforts
to correct long working hours.
So, interestingly, the US stillaverages over 1800 hours a year
longer than Japan, despite thepersistent image of Japanese
(16:15):
people work too much.
The fact that Americans nowwork more is not widely known.
So, that said, japan'sworkplace culture still tends to
value being present at thecompany, even if productivity
isn't necessarily high.
(16:36):
So while total hours may bedecreasing, the unspoken
expectation to stay late stilllingers, making it hard to judge
everything purely by numbers.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I remember when I first worked for a company in
Japan it was for an izakayachain.
The company was called DaishoCorporation and they had the
Shoya izakaya chain, which isstill think it's a pretty big
chain of izakaya restaurants inTokyo to the head office to meet
(17:20):
the president's wife forJapanese lessons.
And yeah, there was this senseof presenteeism, like the staff
would just stay there and maybenot really work, because
sometimes we'd stay there, we'dhave lessons in the afternoon or
the evening and yeah, they justweren't working, but they had
to stay there until the bosswent home.
And once the boss went home,and then once the president went
home or the president's wifewent home, everyone else could
(17:41):
go home.
But that was in the 1990s, sohopefully that's changed.
I recently told you aboutAustralia's new law of right to
disconnect and so now inAustralia, once you go home,
your employer cannot email youor they're not really allowed to
text you about work.
(18:01):
So there is this kind of hardstop at five o'clock Once you
finish work, that's it no text,no emails.
But I don't think that happensin.
Probably it doesn't happen inmost countries.
Maybe Australia is quite unique.
So do you think a lot ofJapanese work after hours at
home.
Do you think they're doingemails and stuff after hours?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It depends on the people, but in my sense I don't
think most people, especiallyyoung people, don't work after
this time, then no more, untilthe next day they go.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So they're still doing a bit of work.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Before this interview , I looked into your LinkedIn
page and you wrote the followingon LinkedIn Recently, Dr Ken
Moggy's bestselling book Ikigaihas been very popular in the
world.
Our methodology enables peopleto have Ikigai at work, which
attributes to sustainable growthand unprecedented business
results.
(19:05):
I want employees to have theirIkigai at work and enjoy their
work.
This is what I'm committed tocausing or to bringing about in
the world, so that's great.
I think everyone should feelikigai at work.
Work should be meaningful, andso when we talk about work,
finding or feeling ikigai atwork, we can also use terms like
(19:27):
yarigai or hatarakigai, and Iknow yarigai is the most common
of these words.
I remember living in Japan andalways hearing of these words.
I remember living in Japan andalways hearing yarigagarune and
very conversational.
I never heard hataraki gai andthen I rarely heard ikigai.
So would you like to touch onthe use of these terms?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yes, absolutely so.
Yarigai and hataraki gai are atthe very core of what we call
ikigai at work.
Yarigai refers to the sense ofmeaning and personal value one
feels in the work they do, whileHatarakigai is a broader
(20:12):
concept that includes thingslike the workplace environment,
relationships with colleaguesand the feeling of personal
growth.
Our methodology focuses notonly on generating breakthrough
business results, but also onenabling individuals to feel
that they are freely andauthentically expressing
(20:35):
themselves at work.
And authentically expressingthemselves at work.
We believe that kind ofworkplace where people
experience that sense ofaliveness and contribution is
what truly drives sustainablegrowth and meaningful outcomes.
That's why I'm deeply committedto creating a world where
people can experience theirikigai through the work they do.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I think it's so important.
We spend eight hours, maybe 10hours a day working and our work
should be meaningful, have asense of purpose, challenging.
We should grow, we should learn.
It should have this balance ofintrinsic and extrinsic
motivation.
(21:20):
But a lot of people don't enjoytheir work.
It's just a job.
They look forward to theweekend and they look forward to
going home and maybe having abeer, watching TV.
So I think it's important.
What you're trying to do, yeah,you know what you're doing
Creating a world where peoplecan experience ikigai through
their work.
And, yeah, the nuances of thesewords so it almost sounds like
(21:45):
yarigai is the practical, theimmediate, what you do.
And then hatarakigai, yeah, isthis broader concept that
includes all the elements ofwork, environment, relationships
.
So we want to have this.
I mean yadigai is from the verbyaru, to do, so we want to do
work that's meaningful.
And then, if we do work that'smeaningful, I guess we feel
(22:08):
ikigai.
This leads us, I guess, to thewestern interpretation of ikigai
, which you know.
So.
So how do japanese, how dotheir cultural perspectives on
work and ikigai differ fromwestern ideas of job
(22:29):
satisfaction or passion?
Is ikigai more about serviceand harmony in the Japanese
context?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, what a fascinating topic.
In Western cultures, valueslike passion and
self-actualization often takecenter stage, and work with
frequently viewed as a vehiclefor fulfilling one's personal
dreams.
In contrast, the Japaneseconcept of ikigai tends to
(23:05):
emerge more strongly fromrelationships with others and
the sense of harmony.
There's a deep-rooted joy infeeling useful to someone or
sensing connection with thepeople around you.
In that sense, japanese cultureemphasizes contribution and wa,
(23:29):
which is harmony overindividual self-expression.
Many people in Japan findmeaning in work by knowing they
are helping others, and thatfeeling becomes a source of
ikigai.
Personally, I find the greatestsense of fulfillment in seeing
(23:53):
my clients or team members growand transform.
That's where the meaning of mywork lies, and I believe it's
also what connects me to myikigai.
In this light, ikigai might bebetter understood not as a form
of inner satisfaction, but as afelt sense that arises within
(24:20):
relationships, as Mogi-senseiwrote in his book Ikigai.
Ikigai is the accumulation ofsmall joys that arise from our
connections with society andothers.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I tend to agree.
I think ikigai is tied to yoursocial world, your relationships
, your roles.
If that's work, yeah, it's howyou support your colleagues, how
they support you, and I guessthat involves harmony, teamwork,
working together to achievebusiness goals.
(24:58):
And yeah, as you said, in theWest there is this tendency for
self-actualization orself-growth, self-development,
self-achievement.
In the West it's all about me,but in Japan it's kind of more
all about we.
You know us.
So I think that's unique andI've always loved that about
(25:19):
Japan.
So, to talk about your work,you want employees to have their
Ikigai work, as you justmentioned, and enjoy their work.
So is this part of what you doat Vanto, where you work?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yes, that's exactly the essence of what we do at the
Vanto Group.
Our core competency lies increating organizational
alignment, so in other words, ashared sense of direction across
the entire company.
Through that process, eachemployee shifts from working
(25:55):
with a sense of obligation orcompliance to genuinely engaging
with the organization's visionand goals as their own.
So we are deeply committed tothe idea that when conversations
change, people change andorganizations change, and we've
(26:15):
seen this happen time and again.
People who were once just doingthe job begin to see themselves
as active contributors to thecompany's success by becoming
part of shaping the future ofthe organization.
A natural sense of meaning andfulfillment in work begin to
(26:36):
emerge.
That's why I believe aworkplace where people can feel
ikigai is something we canabsolutely create intentionally.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
It almost sounds like you're creating a e-bash hall,
a place for employees to have asense of belonging, they
contribute.
I guess the company's vision orgoal also becomes their vision
or goal and it's shared.
And it comes with thisintention and moving from just
(27:09):
doing a job to living or workingin alignment, feeling part of
the vision, the process and thatyou, I guess you, matter in the
work you do and in the company.
So, with that in mind and withthat vision you have, would you
like to talk more about Vanto?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Absolutely yes, so I'd be glad to introduce our
work.
So Vant Group is a boutiqueglobal consulting firm founded
in the US 30 years ago.
Our focus isn't on craftingstrategies.
It's on executing them anddelivering results.
Achieve breakthrough businessoutcomes by transforming the
(27:52):
behavior of people and teams.
What we value most is enablingpeople to feel that their
interests and passions are beingexpressed through their work,
but in reality, many people feelthey are just going through the
motion, working out ofobligation or compliance.
(28:12):
We believe that if eachemployee can find alignment
between what they truly want todo and where the company is
headed, their work willnaturally become more energized,
and that energy will driveorganizational success.
Organizational success why?
(28:38):
Because that overlap becomes asource of Ikigai for the
individual simultaneously holdsgrowth for the organization.
At Bant Group, we are 100%committed to unlocking the human
potential.
We support companies inbuilding workplaces where people
can be themselves, in buildingworkplaces where people can be
themselves, work vibrantly andtruly experience Ikigai in what
they do.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
How long have you been working for Vanto Group?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
So seven years past.
So right now, yeah, beginningof eight years.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think the founders in business is the founders
Steve Zafron, Is he well?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
known, I think so, but in the US yes.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
So, yeah, I know he's internationally respected
leadership authority.
He's also an author.
I guess he's quite strategic,and he's led large and mid-sized
organizations worldwide formore than 25 years.
I have a few notes here, so Iknow the Vanto Group's about
increasing performance alongwith employee well-being.
This idea of Yadigai is thisorganizational performance to
(29:41):
increase sales and profit,engagement and then quality of
work life.
So, yeah, do you want to touchon Vanto's methodology in more
detail?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yes.
So our methodology is outlinedin detail in the book the three
laws of performance.
So, to put it simply, it's anapproach that dives into the
core question why do people takeaction?
So we've seen countlesssituations where people have the
knowledge and motivation, butstill don't take action.
(30:11):
So we've seen countlesssituations where people have the
knowledge and motivation butstill don't take action.
That led us to focus on one keyfactor how a situation occurs
to a person.
I'll give you an example Rightnow.
You know, take the currentexchange rate of 145, maybe 147,
(30:36):
8 yen to the dollar.
So for Japanese, you know, itoccurs as a crisis for one
person, while it occurs as anopportunity for another.
This occurrence how thingsappear, show up to someone is
(30:56):
what ultimately shapes theirbehavior.
So if the current crisistransforms to opportunity for
someone, his or her actionnaturally shifts.
It's a simple yet deeplyfundamental principle, and our
work at Bantuk Group appliesthis to organizational
(31:20):
transformation and performancebreakthrough.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I see.
So it's really about how we seeor interpret or understand a
situation.
If we can shift perspective, wefind opportunity.
So what are some commonbarriers that prevent people
from finding or living theirikigai at work, and how can
(31:43):
these be overcome at anorganizational level?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
I believe the biggest barrier is the deeply ingrained
, often unconscious, assumptionthat work is something you just
endure or something you do outof necessity to make a living.
When this mindset takes root,people tend to close off their
own potential and accept a senseof obligation as the norm.
(32:12):
On the organizational side,when companies focus too
narrowly on short-term resultsas long as the numbers are good,
it's fine they often leave nospace for employees to find
meaning or fulfillment in theirwork.
So one helpful metaphor is thewell-known Aesop's proverb about
(32:36):
the three bricklayers.
You probably heard it Three menare laying bricks and when
asked what they are doing, thefirst say oh, I'm laying bricks.
The second said I'm building awall for living.
The third said I'm building acathedral.
(32:59):
That third bricklayer is the onewho envisions a large future
and is inspired by it.
When people are connected tosuch a vision, they work with
energy, clarity and purpose.
On the individual level, thekey is whether someone can see
(33:21):
and define that bigger futurefor themselves.
At the organizational level,it's equally important for a
company to engage in opendialogue about its purpose, why
it exists, what contributionit's making to society, how
employees can connect to thatvision.
(33:43):
That means clearly articulatinga shared purpose in language
and creating opportunities foremployees to resonate with it,
not just as a message fromleadership, but as a
conversation throughout thecompany.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, it's a fascinating idea the way we see
things with the fable I'm justlaying bricks, or I'm building a
wall for a living that's my jobor no, I'm building a cathedral
and it's purely vision.
And then, once you have thevision, you take the appropriate
action.
And so, yeah, thisorganizational level vision,
(34:24):
where everyone's involved,there's a shared purpose, it
resonates with everyone.
Yeah, it would probably resultin better results and better
well-being and sense of purposefor everyone involved.
So I think we're talking aboutnot just vision, but we're also
talking about workplace, likewhat's an ideal workplace?
(34:45):
So, if you could design theideal workplace where Ikigai is
present at every level, fromleadership to frontline staff,
what would that look like?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
If we were to design a workplace where Ikigai lives
and breathes at every level, themost important foundation would
be that everyone feels a deepsense of purpose in what they do
.
Leaders, for example, shouldn'tjust talk about numbers.
They should speak to the future, to values, and serve as
(35:23):
catalysts who draw out humanpotential.
Middle managers should act asvital bridge, listening to the
voices on the ground andconnecting meaning to execution,
and frontline staff should beable to see clearly how the
individual roles contribute tothe organization's broader
(35:46):
vision.
What ties all this together isdialogue and the felt sense that
I'm making a difference tosomeone.
When work becomes not just aduty but a source of pride and
joy, then the workplacenaturally becomes a place where
(36:07):
both people and results can growsustainably, and results can
grow sustainably.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So are we touching on the concept of Ibasho, what I
mentioned earlier?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes, of course.
In fact, I believe a workplacewhere Ikigai is present is, at
its core, a workplace wherepeople have Ibasho.
Ibasho isn't just a physicalseat or title, it's the
psychological safety of feelingI belong here.
(36:42):
When people feel their opinionsare valued and their presence
is accepted.
That's when they are able tothrive.
On the other hand, if they areonly expected to deliver
outcomes and come to feel likeit wouldn't matter if I weren't
(37:03):
here, there's no space forikigai to take root.
So we need both the wheelturning, not only ikigai meaning
, but also ibasho safety.
One without the other isincomplete.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, I really believe ibasho.
I mean it's similar to ikigai.
It's a common Japanese word,but I think from the 70s it sort
of became a psychologicalconcept, source of academic
study, research, and now it hasthis different meaning.
I think it used to meanwhereabouts just you know the
(37:46):
whereabouts of someone, where issomeone?
But now it's this idea of aplace to belong, a place of
safety, a place of purpose.
So I think it really fits wellinside workplaces as a structure
for well-being.
And then ikigai, as youmentioned, brings in the meaning
, brings in purpose, brings in,I guess, a sense of significance
.
Another concept I think is usedin business, something I
(38:10):
learned from think is used inbusiness, something I learned
from Globus, japan's biggestbusiness school, was kokorozashi
Is that something you talkabout in business in Japan
sometimes?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
In my opinion, kokorozashi is not like in the
business sense.
It's more about like a privateor individual perspective.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Okay, it's like a personal mission.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's my opinion, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, so it's always inspiring.
Japan has these reallyinteresting words that
articulate a field of psychology.
So ikigai, meaning purpose,ibasho, sense of belonging.
So we've talked a lot aboutwork.
Let's end with your personalIkigai Kinsuke.
(38:56):
What is that for you?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yes.
So for me, my Ikigai of work iswitnessing people discover
their own potential and begin tolive and work from that place.
When I see someone shift from alife of obligation to one where
they are living withauthenticity and strength, I'm
(39:21):
reminded why I do what I do.
And in my personal life, mygreatest ikigai is parenting.
So I have a three-year-old sonand I just adore him.
Watching him grow and discoversomething new every day showed
me what the joy of being alivetruly looks like.
(39:45):
Growing alongside him.
That's my deepest ikigai rightnow can certainly relate to that
.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I remember when my son was three.
Really beautiful age, they'reso happy, joyful.
Now my son's 21 and I stilladore him yeah, of course our
relationship's very different.
Yeah, he's very intelligent,very creative.
He's far more intelligent thanme, which I'm really proud of.
We kind of have a very playfulbanter, I think, as a way to
(40:21):
communicate love.
But he's also honest, authenticand, yeah, he often says dad,
you know, there's no point inworrying, just get on and do the
work or just focus.
So sometimes he gives me reallygood advice.
So I'm sure, yeah, you'll havethis incredible journey with
your son.
Yeah, before you know it, he'llbe an adult, so you can have
(40:45):
many sources of Ikigai work,family, parenting and obviously
for you, I imagine, exercisingis still a source of Ikigai.
Yeah, well, it was really goodto meet you in person, kinsuke,
(41:05):
and now it was great to have achat with you about the work you
do and how you bring Ikigai tothe workplace in Japan, and I'm
sure we will meet again when Ivisit Tokyo again, which will
hopefully be in November, and wecan have another.
Maybe we can try and grab Ken.
Ken Mogi and have anotherconversation.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, today I hope.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So thank you very much for your effort you put
into all your answers.
I know you put a lot of effortinto preparing them and thank
you for your time today.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Thank you, nick.
It's my pleasure to attend thispodcast show and also very good
for me to look what I do andwhat is Ikigai.
You know what is Yarigai orthis kind of thing.
It's very precious time torecall or study or etc.
(42:01):
So thank you very much for thisopportunity.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Oh, thank you.
I appreciate it too, so thatmeans a lot to me.
So I'm glad I could create thatopportunity for you.
So thank you.
I believe the biggest barrier is the deeply ingrained
, often unconscious, assumptionthat work is something you just
endure or something you do outof necessity to make a living.
When this mindset takes root,people tend to close off their
own potential and accept a senseof obligation as the norm.
(00:24):
Potential and accept a sense ofobligation as the norm.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Kensuke
Yamamoto, a senior consultant atVanto Group, a boutique global
consulting firm servingcorporations, organizations and
institutions in a variety ofindustry and fields and
institutions in a variety ofindustry and fields.
Kentsuke specializes increating new relationships with
(00:52):
prospective clients in Japan tosupport them in implementing
high-performance initiatives andenabling them to achieve
unprecedented business resultswithin their organizations.
Prior to joining Vanto Group,kinski held sales roles in
active pharmaceuticalingredients and has extensive
experience in the pharmaceuticalindustry.
Kinski holds a bachelor'sdegree in economics from the
(01:15):
University of California Davis,and Kinski is a three-time
Ironman triathlete finisher andwinner of the Ironman Bittan in
his age group in 2012.
So that's very impressive.
Welcome to the podcast, kensuke.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Hello.
Thank you very much for thisinvitation, Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
My pleasure.
It was good to meet you, solet's share that story.
We met through our mutualfriend, ken Moggi, at a dinner
at the University of Tokyo in Ithink it was in May.
Ken is a fun, playful thoughtleader.
He's also a celebrityneuroscientist and you connected
(01:58):
with Ken through Ikigai.
So do you want to share howthat came about?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yes, so do you want to share how that came about?
Yes, so there's a magazinecalled Nikkei Top Leader, and
last year they held acommemorative event for their
40th anniversary.
Professor Mogi Mogi Sensei wasa speaker at the event and I
(02:23):
attended as a participant.
He spoke about Ikigai andbusiness management, and what he
shared was highly compatiblewith the Bantam Group methods.
That's how our connection began.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I see, when I arrived , you were talking to Ken and so
I met you.
We had a good chat and we gotto know each other and we've
stayed in contact.
So, yeah, it's really good tohave you on the podcast today.
So let's talk about yourbackground.
Would you like to share somebackground?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yes.
So regarding my family, soright now I live in Kawasaki
City with my wife andtwo-year-old son.
I'm originally from TakasagoCity in Hyogo Prefecture, a town
with a rich history that's alsoknown for the no-play Takasago.
(03:18):
I spent 18 years there beforemoving to Osaka at age 18 to
study chemistry at KansaiUniversity.
So in the first year, in thefall of my first year, a friend
recommended that I read RyotaroShiba, very famous writer Shiba
(03:39):
Ryotaro no Ryomagayuku that'sthe title.
That book had a profound impacton me.
I strongly felt that I wantedto break through the stagnation
of the times, just like Ryomadid.
At the time, japan was in theaftermath of the bubble, economy
(04:02):
collapsed and although globalrelations were being widely
discussed, there was a sense ofinertia and lack of progress
Amid the atmosphere.
I dared to broaden myperspective by going abroad.
I began to grow and I made thedecision to study up overseas.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I see Ryoma Gayuku translates to Ryoma goes his way
.
Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I'm not sure, but there's an English version, I
believe.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, I've just checked it, so that's what I
think it means.
So, in a way, you decided to goyour own way and you went to
the USS.
So how did living in the USinfluence your life?
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yes, what I'm most proud of is that for nearly five
years, I fully committed myselfto both academics and triathlon
.
While living abroad, I studiedfrom a place where I could
barely speak the language,constantly faced the reality of
(05:12):
my own limitations and stillnever gave up.
I stayed true to pursuing bothintellectual and physical
excellence until the very endintellectual and physical
excellence until the very end.
By the way, in Japanese culturewe have a concept called Bunbu
(05:36):
Ryodo, which literally means thedual path of pen and sword.
It comes from the way of thesamurai, not only mastering
academics, but also maintainingstrengths in martial arts, and
in my interpretation, thatincludes modern sports as well.
That way of life, striving inboth mind and body, is how I
(06:02):
choose to live.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I love it.
I love Bushido philosophy.
So Ryodo means both paths.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, Ryodo means both pathways.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Bun means literature and Bu means martial arts.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So that's very inspiring, kensuke.
You went to a different country, you couldn't speak the
language and you excelledacademically and also did these
triathlons, which are verychallenging.
Do you still exercise today?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yes, not much, but yes, I do swimming a few times
in a month and also for a week.
I do convict conditioning.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Convict conditioning?
I think you told me so.
Is that what they do in theprison system?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yes, something like that.
So in the prison there's no youknow, waiting machine or
everything equipment.
That's why they use theirweight to do push-ups, pull-ups,
leg raises and et cetera.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Largely body weight activities.
Body weight exercises, yes, butyou're not a convict, are you
Not convict?
Okay, so well, let's talk aboutthe business landscape in japan
.
That's where you are, you're in, in business, and I think when
(07:33):
people think about business injapan or business brands, they
think of brands such as sony,toyota, yamaha and nintendo.
All these brands come to mind,but I recently discovered that
most businesses in Japan aresmall to medium enterprises.
Would you like to touch on that?
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yes, so, as you said, yes, in fact, small and
medium-sized enterprises SMEsmake up 99.7% of all companies
in Japan.
This is a reference to the 2024white paper by the Small and
(08:13):
Medium Enterprise Agency.
So this is the official data.
So, from manufacturing toservice industries, they play a
vital role in supportingregional economies.
That's why SMEs are absolutelyessential when discussing the
landscape of Japanese business.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
That's amazing 99.7%.
So that's like almost all yesand I recently watched a
documentary about this anddiscovered that japan's small
and medium-sized enterprises, sosmes, face a multitude of
(08:57):
challenges, including an agingworkforce, high operation costs,
difficulty financing, a lack ofdigitalization, all which
threaten their sustainabilityand growth.
So would you like to touch onthis?
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yes, exactly as you said.
Japan's small and medium-sizedenterprises SMEs are currently
facing numerous challenges.
Among them, labor shortages andaging populations are
particularly serious.
Looking at the labor shortagefrom a broader perspective, a
(09:36):
recent report showed that only680,000 babies were born in 2024
, which is last year.
30 years ago, that number was 1million, so this gives us a
clear picture of how decliningbirth rates will impact the
(09:57):
future workforce.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah, this is interesting.
I think everyone knows Japanhas this aging population,
declining birth rate.
Then there's also obviouslythis small to medium enterprises
where there's no ascension orno inherit, like no one's
inheriting these businessesbecause a lot of children take
on different jobs.
(10:20):
So it's quite a significantproblem.
I think there's something about.
Is it called the seller's jobmarket?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah.
So let me explain the currentlythe job market situation.
So right now, Japan's jobmarket is sellers.
So Japan has a unique hiringsystem known as Shinsotsu Saiyo,
which is the new graduate onlynew graduate recruitment, and
(11:19):
the job opening to applicantsratio for 2025 university
graduate is now 1.75.
Just the other day, I heardfrom an SME owner who said that
preference for big-namecompanies among job seekers is
growing.
(11:39):
Large corporations areaggressively hiring, taking in
(12:01):
SMEs, and they are competingover a very small pool of
candidates.
So in this environment,building a truly attractive
company and communicating thateffectively to the public is
more important than ever to thepublic is more important than
ever.
I believe this is one of thekey challenges SMEs must tackle.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So all the talent, new talent or all these
university graduates end upcompeting for positions in
larger companies in major cities, and then these SMEs are
missing on, I guess the bestgraduates or the most
knowledgeable graduates, andthen what's left over they're
competing with.
But SMEs make up 99.7% ofbusiness, so it should be the
(12:49):
opposite.
All these graduates should begoing to SMEs.
But I guess the allure or theattraction of a big company is
exciting for graduates.
They want to work for a bigcompany, get a good salary.
I guess there's brand value ifwe talk about Sony or Toyota,
and so I think this is where youhelp in your business, and
(13:10):
maybe we'll talk about that alittle bit later.
Over the last decades, I think,Japan's workplace culture has
dramatically changed.
So how has workplace culture?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
changed in Japan in the past several decades.
So over the past few decades,japan's workplace culture has
undergone significant change.
In the past, lifetimeemployment and seniority-based
promotion were the norm and erawhen people were expected to
dedicate their lives to thecompany, but today, more and
(13:47):
more individuals value their owntime and seek meaningful work.
This shift is especiallyevident among younger
generations, who tend toprioritize dialogue and empathy
over rigid hierarchies.
I feel that if organizationsdon't adapt to this cultural
(14:10):
change, they'll struggle toretain talent.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
So this is interesting.
Younger Japanese are wantingwork that's, I guess, more
meaningful, where they havedialogue and empathy and not
this rigid hierarchy of, I guess, what was tradition, especially
seniority-based promotion,where simply because you get
older you get promoted ratherthan your skills or contribution
(14:34):
.
And so you think this.
You know businesses must changewith this cultural change.
So yeah, Japan was famous forlifetime employment.
That was like the trade-off Ifyou work for our company, we'll
give you lifetime employment, sowork hard, and then, when you
retire, give you lifetimeemployment, so work hard, and
then when you retire, you canenjoy retirement.
(14:56):
But that's changed.
Traditional aspects of longworking hours, I think, still
remain in Japan, but there isthis growing emphasis on
work-life balance, flexible workarrangements and a focus on
employee well-being.
And I know this change isdriven by government initiatives
evolving employee attitudes andcompanies adapting to attract
(15:20):
and retain talent in thecompetitive market you just
talked about, but I'm not sure Ibelieve it.
So is it really true?
Are Japanese working fewerhours?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yes, that's true.
Japanese working hours havedefinitely decreased over the
past few decades.
Let me explain.
Back in the 1970s, the averagewas over 2,200 hours per year,
but now it has dropped to the1600-hour range.
(15:53):
This shift is largely due towork style reforms and efforts
to correct long working hours.
So, interestingly, the US stillaverages over 1800 hours a year
longer than Japan, despite thepersistent image of Japanese
(16:15):
people work too much.
The fact that Americans nowwork more is not widely known.
So, that said, japan'sworkplace culture still tends to
value being present at thecompany, even if productivity
isn't necessarily high.
(16:36):
So while total hours may bedecreasing, the unspoken
expectation to stay late stilllingers, making it hard to judge
everything purely by numbers.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
I remember when I first worked for a company in
Japan it was for an izakayachain.
The company was called DaishoCorporation and they had the
Shoya izakaya chain, which isstill think it's a pretty big
chain of izakaya restaurants inTokyo to the head office to meet
(17:20):
the president's wife forJapanese lessons.
And yeah, there was this senseof presenteeism, like the staff
would just stay there and maybenot really work, because
sometimes we'd stay there, we'dhave lessons in the afternoon or
the evening and yeah, they justweren't working, but they had
to stay there until the bosswent home.
And once the boss went home,and then once the president went
home or the president's wifewent home, everyone else could
(17:41):
go home.
But that was in the 1990s, sohopefully that's changed.
I recently told you aboutAustralia's new law of right to
disconnect and so now inAustralia, once you go home,
your employer cannot email youor they're not really allowed to
text you about work.
(18:01):
So there is this kind of hardstop at five o'clock Once you
finish work, that's it no text,no emails.
But I don't think that happensin.
Probably it doesn't happen inmost countries.
Maybe Australia is quite unique.
So do you think a lot ofJapanese work after hours at
home.
Do you think they're doingemails and stuff after hours?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It depends on the people, but in my sense I don't
think most people, especiallyyoung people, don't work after
this time, then no more, untilthe next day they go.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So they're still doing a bit of work.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Before this interview , I looked into your LinkedIn
page and you wrote the followingon LinkedIn Recently, Dr Ken
Moggy's bestselling book Ikigaihas been very popular in the
world.
Our methodology enables peopleto have Ikigai at work, which
attributes to sustainable growthand unprecedented business
results.
(19:05):
I want employees to have theirIkigai at work and enjoy their
work.
This is what I'm committed tocausing or to bringing about in
the world, so that's great.
I think everyone should feelikigai at work.
Work should be meaningful, andso when we talk about work,
finding or feeling ikigai atwork, we can also use terms like
(19:27):
yarigai or hatarakigai, and Iknow yarigai is the most common
of these words.
I remember living in Japan andalways hearing of these words.
I remember living in Japan andalways hearing yarigagarune and
very conversational.
I never heard hataraki gai andthen I rarely heard ikigai.
So would you like to touch onthe use of these terms?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yes, absolutely so.
Yarigai and hataraki gai are atthe very core of what we call
ikigai at work.
Yarigai refers to the sense ofmeaning and personal value one
feels in the work they do, whileHatarakigai is a broader
(20:12):
concept that includes thingslike the workplace environment,
relationships with colleaguesand the feeling of personal
growth.
Our methodology focuses notonly on generating breakthrough
business results, but also onenabling individuals to feel
that they are freely andauthentically expressing
(20:35):
themselves at work.
And authentically expressingthemselves at work.
We believe that kind ofworkplace where people
experience that sense ofaliveness and contribution is
what truly drives sustainablegrowth and meaningful outcomes.
That's why I'm deeply committedto creating a world where
people can experience theirikigai through the work they do.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I think it's so important.
We spend eight hours, maybe 10hours a day working and our work
should be meaningful, have asense of purpose, challenging.
We should grow, we should learn.
It should have this balance ofintrinsic and extrinsic
motivation.
(21:20):
But a lot of people don't enjoytheir work.
It's just a job.
They look forward to theweekend and they look forward to
going home and maybe having abeer, watching TV.
So I think it's important.
What you're trying to do, yeah,you know what you're doing
Creating a world where peoplecan experience ikigai through
their work.
And, yeah, the nuances of thesewords so it almost sounds like
(21:45):
yarigai is the practical, theimmediate, what you do.
And then hatarakigai, yeah, isthis broader concept that
includes all the elements ofwork, environment, relationships
.
So we want to have this.
I mean yadigai is from the verbyaru, to do, so we want to do
work that's meaningful.
And then, if we do work that'smeaningful, I guess we feel
(22:08):
ikigai.
This leads us, I guess, to thewestern interpretation of ikigai
, which you know.
So.
So how do japanese, how dotheir cultural perspectives on
work and ikigai differ fromwestern ideas of job
(22:29):
satisfaction or passion?
Is ikigai more about serviceand harmony in the Japanese
context?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, what a fascinating topic.
In Western cultures, valueslike passion and
self-actualization often takecenter stage, and work with
frequently viewed as a vehiclefor fulfilling one's personal
dreams.
In contrast, the Japaneseconcept of ikigai tends to
(23:05):
emerge more strongly fromrelationships with others and
the sense of harmony.
There's a deep-rooted joy infeeling useful to someone or
sensing connection with thepeople around you.
In that sense, japanese cultureemphasizes contribution and wa,
(23:29):
which is harmony overindividual self-expression.
Many people in Japan findmeaning in work by knowing they
are helping others, and thatfeeling becomes a source of
ikigai.
Personally, I find the greatestsense of fulfillment in seeing
(23:53):
my clients or team members growand transform.
That's where the meaning of mywork lies, and I believe it's
also what connects me to myikigai.
In this light, ikigai might bebetter understood not as a form
of inner satisfaction, but as afelt sense that arises within
(24:20):
relationships, as Mogi-senseiwrote in his book Ikigai.
Ikigai is the accumulation ofsmall joys that arise from our
connections with society andothers.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I tend to agree.
I think ikigai is tied to yoursocial world, your relationships
, your roles.
If that's work, yeah, it's howyou support your colleagues, how
they support you, and I guessthat involves harmony, teamwork,
working together to achievebusiness goals.
(24:58):
And yeah, as you said, in theWest there is this tendency for
self-actualization orself-growth, self-development,
self-achievement.
In the West it's all about me,but in Japan it's kind of more
all about we.
You know us.
So I think that's unique andI've always loved that about
(25:19):
Japan.
So, to talk about your work,you want employees to have their
Ikigai work, as you justmentioned, and enjoy their work.
So is this part of what you doat Vanto, where you work?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Yes, that's exactly the essence of what we do at the
Vanto Group.
Our core competency lies increating organizational
alignment, so in other words, ashared sense of direction across
the entire company.
Through that process, eachemployee shifts from working
(25:55):
with a sense of obligation orcompliance to genuinely engaging
with the organization's visionand goals as their own.
So we are deeply committed tothe idea that when conversations
change, people change andorganizations change, and we've
(26:15):
seen this happen time and again.
People who were once just doingthe job begin to see themselves
as active contributors to thecompany's success by becoming
part of shaping the future ofthe organization.
A natural sense of meaning andfulfillment in work begin to
(26:36):
emerge.
That's why I believe aworkplace where people can feel
ikigai is something we canabsolutely create intentionally.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
It almost sounds like you're creating a e-bash hall,
a place for employees to have asense of belonging, they
contribute.
I guess the company's vision orgoal also becomes their vision
or goal and it's shared.
And it comes with thisintention and moving from just
(27:09):
doing a job to living or workingin alignment, feeling part of
the vision, the process and thatyou, I guess you, matter in the
work you do and in the company.
So, with that in mind and withthat vision you have, would you
like to talk more about Vanto?
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Absolutely yes, so I'd be glad to introduce our
work.
So Vant Group is a boutiqueglobal consulting firm founded
in the US 30 years ago.
Our focus isn't on craftingstrategies.
It's on executing them anddelivering results.
Achieve breakthrough businessoutcomes by transforming the
(27:52):
behavior of people and teams.
What we value most is enablingpeople to feel that their
interests and passions are beingexpressed through their work,
but in reality, many people feelthey are just going through the
motion, working out ofobligation or compliance.
(28:12):
We believe that if eachemployee can find alignment
between what they truly want todo and where the company is
headed, their work willnaturally become more energized,
and that energy will driveorganizational success.
Organizational success why?
(28:38):
Because that overlap becomes asource of Ikigai for the
individual simultaneously holdsgrowth for the organization.
At Bant Group, we are 100%committed to unlocking the human
potential.
We support companies inbuilding workplaces where people
can be themselves, in buildingworkplaces where people can be
themselves, work vibrantly andtruly experience Ikigai in what
they do.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
How long have you been working for Vanto Group?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
So seven years past.
So right now, yeah, beginningof eight years.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think the founders in business is the founders
Steve Zafron, Is he well?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
known, I think so, but in the US yes.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
So, yeah, I know he's internationally respected
leadership authority.
He's also an author.
I guess he's quite strategic,and he's led large and mid-sized
organizations worldwide formore than 25 years.
I have a few notes here, so Iknow the Vanto Group's about
increasing performance alongwith employee well-being.
This idea of Yadigai is thisorganizational performance to
(29:41):
increase sales and profit,engagement and then quality of
work life.
So, yeah, do you want to touchon Vanto's methodology in more
detail?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yes.
So our methodology is outlinedin detail in the book the three
laws of performance.
So, to put it simply, it's anapproach that dives into the
core question why do people takeaction?
So we've seen countlesssituations where people have the
knowledge and motivation, butstill don't take action.
(30:11):
So we've seen countlesssituations where people have the
knowledge and motivation butstill don't take action.
That led us to focus on one keyfactor how a situation occurs
to a person.
I'll give you an example Rightnow.
You know, take the currentexchange rate of 145, maybe 147,
(30:36):
8 yen to the dollar.
So for Japanese, you know, itoccurs as a crisis for one
person, while it occurs as anopportunity for another.
This occurrence how thingsappear, show up to someone is
(30:56):
what ultimately shapes theirbehavior.
So if the current crisistransforms to opportunity for
someone, his or her actionnaturally shifts.
It's a simple yet deeplyfundamental principle, and our
work at Bantuk Group appliesthis to organizational
(31:20):
transformation and performancebreakthrough.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I see.
So it's really about how we seeor interpret or understand a
situation.
If we can shift perspective, wefind opportunity.
So what are some commonbarriers that prevent people
from finding or living theirikigai at work, and how can
(31:43):
these be overcome at anorganizational level?
Speaker 1 (31:47):
I believe the biggest barrier is the deeply ingrained
, often unconscious, assumptionthat work is something you just
endure or something you do outof necessity to make a living.
When this mindset takes root,people tend to close off their
own potential and accept a senseof obligation as the norm.
(32:12):
On the organizational side,when companies focus too
narrowly on short-term resultsas long as the numbers are good,
it's fine they often leave nospace for employees to find
meaning or fulfillment in theirwork.
So one helpful metaphor is thewell-known Aesop's proverb about
(32:36):
the three bricklayers.
You probably heard it Three menare laying bricks and when
asked what they are doing, thefirst say oh, I'm laying bricks.
The second said I'm building awall for living.
The third said I'm building acathedral.
(32:59):
That third bricklayer is the onewho envisions a large future
and is inspired by it.
When people are connected tosuch a vision, they work with
energy, clarity and purpose.
On the individual level, thekey is whether someone can see
(33:21):
and define that bigger futurefor themselves.
At the organizational level,it's equally important for a
company to engage in opendialogue about its purpose, why
it exists, what contributionit's making to society, how
employees can connect to thatvision.
(33:43):
That means clearly articulatinga shared purpose in language
and creating opportunities foremployees to resonate with it,
not just as a message fromleadership, but as a
conversation throughout thecompany.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, it's a fascinating idea the way we see
things with the fable I'm justlaying bricks, or I'm building a
wall for a living that's my jobor no, I'm building a cathedral
and it's purely vision.
And then, once you have thevision, you take the appropriate
action.
And so, yeah, thisorganizational level vision,
(34:24):
where everyone's involved,there's a shared purpose, it
resonates with everyone.
Yeah, it would probably resultin better results and better
well-being and sense of purposefor everyone involved.
So I think we're talking aboutnot just vision, but we're also
talking about workplace, likewhat's an ideal workplace?
(34:45):
So, if you could design theideal workplace where Ikigai is
present at every level, fromleadership to frontline staff,
what would that look like?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
If we were to design a workplace where Ikigai lives
and breathes at every level, themost important foundation would
be that everyone feels a deepsense of purpose in what they do
.
Leaders, for example, shouldn'tjust talk about numbers.
They should speak to the future, to values, and serve as
(35:23):
catalysts who draw out humanpotential.
Middle managers should act asvital bridge, listening to the
voices on the ground andconnecting meaning to execution,
and frontline staff should beable to see clearly how the
individual roles contribute tothe organization's broader
(35:46):
vision.
What ties all this together isdialogue and the felt sense that
I'm making a difference tosomeone.
When work becomes not just aduty but a source of pride and
joy, then the workplacenaturally becomes a place where
(36:07):
both people and results can growsustainably, and results can
grow sustainably.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
So are we touching on the concept of Ibasho, what I
mentioned earlier?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yes, of course.
In fact, I believe a workplacewhere Ikigai is present is, at
its core, a workplace wherepeople have Ibasho.
Ibasho isn't just a physicalseat or title, it's the
psychological safety of feelingI belong here.
(36:42):
When people feel their opinionsare valued and their presence
is accepted.
That's when they are able tothrive.
On the other hand, if they areonly expected to deliver
outcomes and come to feel likeit wouldn't matter if I weren't
(37:03):
here, there's no space forikigai to take root.
So we need both the wheelturning, not only ikigai meaning
, but also ibasho safety.
One without the other isincomplete.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, I really believe ibasho.
I mean it's similar to ikigai.
It's a common Japanese word,but I think from the 70s it sort
of became a psychologicalconcept, source of academic
study, research, and now it hasthis different meaning.
I think it used to meanwhereabouts just you know the
(37:46):
whereabouts of someone, where issomeone?
But now it's this idea of aplace to belong, a place of
safety, a place of purpose.
So I think it really fits wellinside workplaces as a structure
for well-being.
And then ikigai, as youmentioned, brings in the meaning
, brings in purpose, brings in,I guess, a sense of significance
.
Another concept I think is usedin business, something I
(38:10):
learned from think is used inbusiness, something I learned
from Globus, japan's biggestbusiness school, was kokorozashi
Is that something you talkabout in business in Japan
sometimes?
Speaker 1 (38:29):
In my opinion, kokorozashi is not like in the
business sense.
It's more about like a privateor individual perspective.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Okay, it's like a personal mission.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's my opinion, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, so it's always inspiring.
Japan has these reallyinteresting words that
articulate a field of psychology.
So ikigai, meaning purpose,ibasho, sense of belonging.
So we've talked a lot aboutwork.
Let's end with your personalIkigai Kinsuke.
(38:56):
What is that for you?
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yes.
So for me, my Ikigai of work iswitnessing people discover
their own potential and begin tolive and work from that place.
When I see someone shift from alife of obligation to one where
they are living withauthenticity and strength, I'm
(39:21):
reminded why I do what I do.
And in my personal life, mygreatest ikigai is parenting.
So I have a three-year-old sonand I just adore him.
Watching him grow and discoversomething new every day showed
me what the joy of being alivetruly looks like.
(39:45):
Growing alongside him.
That's my deepest ikigai rightnow can certainly relate to that
.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
I remember when my son was three.
Really beautiful age, they'reso happy, joyful.
Now my son's 21 and I stilladore him yeah, of course our
relationship's very different.
Yeah, he's very intelligent,very creative.
He's far more intelligent thanme, which I'm really proud of.
We kind of have a very playfulbanter, I think, as a way to
(40:21):
communicate love.
But he's also honest, authenticand, yeah, he often says dad,
you know, there's no point inworrying, just get on and do the
work or just focus.
So sometimes he gives me reallygood advice.
So I'm sure, yeah, you'll havethis incredible journey with
your son.
Yeah, before you know it, he'llbe an adult, so you can have
(40:45):
many sources of Ikigai work,family, parenting and obviously
for you, I imagine, exercisingis still a source of Ikigai.
Yeah, well, it was really goodto meet you in person, kinsuke,
(41:05):
and now it was great to have achat with you about the work you
do and how you bring Ikigai tothe workplace in Japan, and I'm
sure we will meet again when Ivisit Tokyo again, which will
hopefully be in November, and wecan have another.
Maybe we can try and grab Ken.
Ken Mogi and have anotherconversation.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, today I hope.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
So thank you very much for your effort you put
into all your answers.
I know you put a lot of effortinto preparing them and thank
you for your time today.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Thank you, nick.
It's my pleasure to attend thispodcast show and also very good
for me to look what I do andwhat is Ikigai.
You know what is Yarigai orthis kind of thing.
It's very precious time torecall or study or etc.
(42:01):
So thank you very much for thisopportunity.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Oh, thank you.
I appreciate it too, so thatmeans a lot to me.
So I'm glad I could create thatopportunity for you.
So thank you.
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