Ikigai and Loss: Finding Meaning in Life’s Hardest Moments

How have you handled loss in your life?

In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with June Kashio to explore how embracing Ikigai can provide meaning, resilience, and healing during times of loss.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I mean, grief has really taught me to really just
live life to the full.
I think that's what the griefexpert, david Kessler, says you
know, grieve fully, but alsoremember to live fully.
And I think that reallyresonates with yeah, I have to
also take those moments togrieve.
I think I'm learning that griefis something that doesn't go

(00:23):
away over time and then you kindof move on.
No, not at all, it's notsomething that you move on from,
it's something you move forwardwith.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is a newfound friend,
june Kashiwara.
June is originally Japanese,from London, and June studied
human resources management and amaster's in humanitarian

(01:04):
psychology.
She has worked in over 10countries as a humanitarian aid
worker and currently works as astaff care and career coach for
the aid sector.
June also supports accompanyingfamilies on the move, having
experienced the emotionalchallenges herself.
June is a single mum, a widow,a cancer survivor, and lives in

(01:28):
Berlin with her 14-year-olddaughter, June.
Thank you very much for joiningthe podcast today.
It's good to see you.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Good to see you too.
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
My pleasure.
So you reached out to me onlylike a month or so ago after
listening to episode 96,Discovering Ikigai Making Life
Worth Living After LosingEverything to War with Marislava
Pachenko, who I call Mira, andMira's just amazing.
So she also lives in Germanyand she's a member of Ikigai

(02:00):
tribe and basically you met herlike within two days after you
asking if I could introduce herto you.
So how was it to meet Mira inBerlin?

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, it was amazing.
I was just very inspired by thepodcast interview.
I think there were many pointswhere I resonated, and when she
mentioned that she was coming toBerlin, I just didn't think
twice.
I thought I had to get in touchwith her, have to meet her.
Maybe we could collaborate anddo events together.

(02:33):
It was a very yeah ikigaimoment.
I was very excited.
There was a moment of joy andawe and it just felt right, and
so I reached out to you.
You answered back very quicklyand within minutes I was
connected with Mira and we metliterally the next day after
that podcast was released and itwas beautiful.
We had a lovely coffee sessionand it was, yeah, just beautiful

(02:58):
, and I'm just so grateful toyou, nick.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
It was funny because Mira sent me a photo and I was
like what You've met already andI couldn't believe it.
So that was an Ikigai momentfor me too.
I said, oh wow, I seem to bebringing people together, which
is a real joy.
So, yeah, that's wonderful.
So you have this interestingbackground, so would you like to
share some of it?
Background.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
So would you like to share some of it?
Let me see where can I start.
So I'm as you mentioned, I'moriginally Japanese, but I was
born and raised in England.
But really that all startedwith my mother's story, who you
know.
She left Japan.
She comes from Tokyo.
She left Japan in the late 60s.
She's the eldest of foursiblings and, kind of you know,

(03:46):
lived through, let's say, thewar, the Great Fire in Tokyo,
living kind of in poverty.
But somehow she was alwaysinspired to study English and go
abroad.
She was a bit of a hippie, shewas really into Beatles and I
think that was her dream toeventually go to London, to UK,
and to kind of be in a placewhere she could listen to the

(04:07):
Beatles songs.
And that's where it all started, with her journey, and a
two-week holiday for my mumended up being just a one-way
ticket.
She didn't really come back toJapan and she ended up settling
in London.
She eventually met her businesspartner and founded a tourism
agency catered for Japanesefamilies and businessmen who

(04:28):
were slowly kind of arriving,let's say, into Europe and into
UK into the early 80s andeventually my father, who was
waiting for her in Japan,actually left his job, which is
very unconventional.
To follow my mother, and that'swhere it all started, is very
unconventional to follow mymother and that's where it all

(04:48):
started.
And then, yeah, then my brotherwas born, and early 1972.
Then I was born in England and Imean both of my parents
Japanese and they had alwaysspoken to us in Japanese.
But as kids we were brought upin London, went to a local
school in London, so we tendtend to always yeah, we always
spoke back, let's say, inEnglish.
We went to the odd Japaneselanguage schools on the weekends

(05:10):
, but that really didn't work.
And it wasn't until I was ninethat my father said it's
actually time for us to go backto Japan.
Our kids are Japanese.
They do need to know thelanguage, they need to kind of
learn the culture and, yeah,that's why I went to Japan for
the first time.
So I lived in Japan for sixyears, from the age of nine to

(05:33):
15.
My brother was 11 at the time.
He kind of only lasted threeyears and he went back to
England because it was very,maybe too difficult for him.
But what happened back in the80s?
I mean, there was a term calledkikoku shijo, which means
returnees.
So you have a lot of, let's say, second generation, third
generation, let's say, japaneseliving abroad who eventually

(05:55):
decide to come back to Japan.
And so there is this termcalled returnees and there were
these preparation schools, let'ssay, called returnees.
And there were thesepreparation schools, let's say,
to prepare returnees toassimilate back into the
japanese culture, specificallyinto the japanese education
system.
So it was kind of, um, yeah, acrash course in one year to

(06:16):
learn, to master the japaneselanguage, to learn all the
school disciplines, the typicalwhich is like the cleaning the
school, how food is served, thetypical songs that you have to
learn in school, the so-calledradio kind of exercises that you

(06:36):
expected to learn.
So, yeah, I would call it kindof a year being brainwashed to
becoming japanese.
And as soon as you got the okay, then you were able then to go
to the normal Japanese school,maybe because I was nine, I was
young enough to pick up thelanguage quite quickly.
So, yeah, I assimilated very,very quickly and was able then

(06:58):
to do my last two years ofelementary school in a local
Japanese school, then went on tojunior high school.
As I said for my brother, hejust could not pick up the
language, he could not keep upwith the schooling system and,
as you know, with the Japaneseeducation system.
You know, if you don't keep up,if you keep failing, then yeah,

(07:18):
you're not very well accepted orsupported.
So in my brother's case, myparents decided to send him back
to England, where he was thensent to a boarding school and
eventually I then wanted to joinmy brother and at the age of 15
, my first year of high school,I had asked my parents if I
could also return to England,and which, for me, I was kind of

(07:43):
like going back home to England.
But it was a completelydifferent experience.
I experienced the so-calledreverse culture shock.
Going back to England afterbecome so Japanese, let's say.
So, it took me, I think, longerto readjust to the life of
being in England again, and thenthat's where I was at an age,

(08:04):
you know, with my mid-years ofteenage years, of also just
asking myself where do I belong?
Who am I?
Am I Japanese, am I British?
So I would say, yeah, thatbecame a bit of a challenge
growing up.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Wow.
So there you go.
I mean it sounds like anintense experience, but maybe at
nine probably just felt likenormal or you could handle it,
all that education to return toJapan and fit in.
I can relate to sort oflanguage at home because I have
a son who's obviously halfJapanese, australian, and my

(08:40):
wife can speak English fluentlybut she chooses to speak only
Japanese in the house.
So even when we're talkingshe'll say something in Japanese
and I'll usually reply inEnglish.
It's a bit odd but it's normalfor us and that's how my son has

(09:02):
been brought up to hear, Iguess, the mother tongue of each
parent and that's how my sonhas been brought up to hear, I
guess, the mother tongue of eachparent.
That's something I can, yeah,relate to to some degree.
So that's quite interesting,those crucial young years, I
guess, where you, you know youturn from child to teen in Japan
and then coming back and Iguess, struggling with reverse

(09:22):
culture shock, coming back and Iguess struggling with reverse
culture shock.
But when you look back at thattime and I guess the time you
have lived in Japan, whataspects of the culture have you
found that have been mostimpactful on your life?

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, I guess I'm feeling more the impact now,
many years later, as an adult.
I'm in my early 50s now andit's not really until the last
few years that I've kind of hadthe interest or the need to
reconnect with my roots orreconnect with Japan.
Up until then, I think somehowpart of me have kind of shunned
away from it or tried to avoidbeing with other Japanese people

(10:02):
.
I don't know where that reallycomes from, because I don't
remember having any traumaticbad experiences in Japan.
I mean, as I said, I was quiteyoung, it was my life as it was,
it was as it was and I quicklydid make friends.
I did really become like a realJapanese teenager.

(10:24):
I mean, there were a few oddmoments of bullying my early
years because of course I dressdifferently, I didn't speak good
Japanese, but you know, I don'tfeel that's that's something
that has really, yeah, that'straumatized me growing up as a
adult.
But I guess I'm beginning toreally appreciate the beauty of
its country, the Japaneseheritage which is really being

(10:48):
lost more and more today.
I would say so, and justreconnecting with Japanese.
And thank God I did live inJapan those years, Otherwise I
wouldn't have been able to speakin Japanese.
So that's kind of a nicefeeling of yeah, it's kind of
giving it a second try, yeah, Areset on.
Let's try to discover Japan allover again in a much more

(11:11):
accepting, loving way, but alsowith curiosity, because although
I am, you know, Japanesefull-blooded, but of course I've
been raised in Europe and withmy work I've been working
overseas and over different 10countries, so I come with a very
much rich, let's say a mosaic,colourful personality and so I
think, yeah, I can appreciateJapan much more now than maybe

(11:35):
from what I remember in my earlyyears.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I guess we all have a unique journey in our
life and yours is quite unique.
So I was thinking about what'syour sense of identity like with
your upbringing?
You're, having traveled to somany countries and UK was home,
but you're now living in Berlin,so how would you describe your

(12:03):
sense of identity, and is itsomething you think about often
now, or it sounded like you didexplore it when you were a
teenager, but what if you alsothink about it now, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, today I kind of look at it as I have a feeling
I don't really fit in onespecific country.
Back then I was kind of forcingmyself to be Japanese to fit in
Japan.
I did the same being in England, try to be English, be you know
, fit into British society.
But deep down I never felt thatI belonged to neither Japan,
england.
And I think I accepted thatgrowing up, that through my

(12:38):
travels and working overseas,that actually I can belong
anywhere everywhere at the sametime.
And yeah, for me, I like belonganywhere everywhere at the same
time.
And yeah, for me I like to usethe analogy of the hermit crab
so you know the hermit crabs,Nick, that kind of.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
I think so.
They just take up residenceanywhere, do they?

Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, they wander around on the shoreline and the
beaches and the sand, often inhot tropical weather, but they
actually expand over, you know.
They can change different sizesand they have to kind of
protect themselves with shells,right.
So of course, as their bodygrows, expands or changes, they

(13:19):
constantly have to find newshells to protect themselves.
And I kind of relate to that.
I kind of see myself a littlebit as a hermit crab because I
am kind of always wanderingaround different places and part
of me, yeah, whether physicalor mental, emotional sizes, I
constantly feel I am changing, Ihave changed and I felt that I

(13:41):
always had to adjust andre-adopt and kind of find a new
home, and so these shells kindof represent the different
residencies, the homes that Ihad to live in, the different
places in the world that Itraveled and worked, and so,
yeah, I kind of call myself likea global nomad, I'm the citizen
of the world and when oftenpeople say to me you know so,

(14:04):
where you come from, where youknow, and often just say, well,
I'm just June, I'm Japanese,from England and living in
Germany right now, and who knowswhere I'll be next year sort of
.
So I try not to kind of mold ortry to force myself to fit in in
one particular place, which iskind of a sad feeling because I

(14:25):
do always kind of envy otherswho you know have their family
nearby, grew up in one place,have their kindergarten friends,
and you know kind of envy thatbecause that's something I've
never really had, yeah, in myown life growing up.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yes, that's familiar to me to some degree.
This happened before myparents' divorce.
But I remember going to schoolone day it was the first day of
the school year and excited tobe back at school in primary
school and sitting next to afriend and he sort of bumped me
and said, oh, your mum's at thedoor.

(15:02):
And yeah, the teacher sort ofcalled me over and gave me a hug
and said I'm going to miss you.
And then we got in a car andleft this life and that kind of
was the end of the family.
And then it was me and mybrother living with a single
mother and we kind of left theextended family.

(15:23):
And yeah, we've alwayscelebrated Christmas with other
families who have lots ofbrothers and sisters.
So I've always had that um, envyof, ah, be cool to be part of a
, a big, stable family who kindof stick around, but um, wasn't
to be.
So what can you do?

(15:43):
You can't really changeanything.
So some small families are goodtoo, but yeah, it'd be nice to
be part of a bigger family.
So anyway, that's kind ofrelated to today's theme loss.
So I thank you for being here,june, to talk about this and
open to discuss it and I feellike we're really kind of good

(16:04):
friends now to discuss this.
So, yeah, I really appreciateit.
So would you like to share whathappened to you about six years
ago?

Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yeah, sure.
So I would say I've gonethrough, looking back, gone
through multiple losses, but Ithink the biggest loss happened
really six years ago when I wasposted out in the Middle East.
I was in Lebanon at the timefor my work.
My husband was working inTurkey, also as an international
assignment, and, yeah,tragically, he died in a train

(16:39):
crash during a business trip.
I mean, what can I say?
Luckily, I mean, I was inTurkey when it happened.
I mean, I had just finished myassignment in Lebanon, I had
packed up, I was there with mydaughter, who was seven, going
on eight, let's say and so wewere kind of living apart due to

(17:00):
our jobs and we were only ableto see each other really once a
month.
So it reached a point where Ialso got quite burnt out with my
job and it just made sense topack up and then join my husband
in Turkey.
And it was, unfortunately,after three months of our
arrival that this event, thisaccident, happened.

(17:20):
And so, yeah, it was verysudden.
It happened a week actuallyafter my daughter's birthday.
It just turned eight, it wasthe end of the year, it was 13
of December 2018.
Yeah, I mean, what, what to say?
Um, it was just very sudden andtragic.
Uh, we were hoping to have amore hopeful life finally, to

(17:42):
you know, being together againafter being separated for for
two years.
But I kind of, yeah, tried toget the best of.
Well, at least we did havethose last three months together
and I, you know, I cherishthose three months very dearly
and, yeah, so we end up stayingin Turkey for four months just
for my daughter finish herschool.
My husband was Turkish, fromGermany, so we decided also to

(18:06):
do the burial in Turkey.
So, of course, you can imagine,there were a lot of
administrative things that hadto be done.
And, yeah, and it was at thatpoint that we decided then to
leave Turkey.
And the question was where dowe go next?
And, asking my daughter, shesaid, yeah, let's go home.
And I said, well, where is homefor you?

(18:26):
And she said, yeah, berlin,germany, of course.
And Berlin was a place where welived before we went to the
Middle East.
And those are really the solidyears where my daughter had her
memories with her father, and sofor her it just made sense
let's go back home.
We still had an apartment inBerlin, so for her it just made
sense let's go back home.
We still had an apartment inBerlin, and yeah, so that's

(18:47):
where we decided to go back to.
I mean, I'm from.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
London.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
My family's in my mother's in London.
So the other option would havebeen to go to have gone back to
London and start a new life andfuture there, but it's it made
sense to go back to Germany.
You know the land of my husband.
It was important also for mydaughter's psychological
stability to go back to a placewhere she could be supported.
That's where all her friendswere, for Parents were there,

(19:15):
really standing by waiting tosupport us, and so it just made
sense.
Yeah, I still have a difficultrelationship with Berlin.
It's been what six years.
But I mean, I'm here really formy daughter and it's clear that
she is obviously in a betterplace now.
She's stable, she's with herfriends.
She's still obviously goingthrough her grief, so I'm here

(19:38):
also to support her, to parent agrieving child.
But of course I have my owngrief to deal with and manage
and I have my, let's say, armyof support my friends.
You know my family I don't havefamily here, but my family in
Japan, also in London, and mybrother in France.
And the psychological support,yeah, the professional support

(20:00):
that I get through grief therapy, which has been very helpful,
yes, so I don't know if I shouldthen go on to the next loss
which, uh, four months after hisdeath and I was diagnosed with
then early breast cancer.
This happened literally a weekbefore we left Turkey to go back
to Germany.
So of course that shifted thewhole focus on trying to make

(20:26):
sure I get the right medicalcare treatment in time, because
I needed to be operatedrelatively quickly, getting her
into the school and then me intohospital to get my operation

(20:49):
and to be treated.
And then I had a relapse a yearafter and so, yeah, I basically
had to lose one of my breastson that third operation,
unfortunately.
And so, yeah, it just felt likea loss after loss really.

(21:09):
And when I really look back andkind of rewind, you know, from
my early childhood, I alsorealized, wow, there's also this
sense of identity, of loss thatI went through.
My father actually left when Iwas five to go back to Japan to
kind of support us financially.
So I kind of grew up alsofatherless, if you like.
So the absence of that fatherfigure was not there, although I

(21:31):
did.
You know, I was kind of used to, it was normal back then.
But now, looking back at it, Ikind of realized that, yeah,
there have been, yeah, so manylosses and and now this you know
so it's been quite a hard,difficult, past, uh, six years.
But, as I said, with all thehelp and the support I've had,
with the work I've been alsodoing on myself through coaching

(21:54):
, through music, therapy is alsosomething I did.
And then I mean now, you know,rediscovering Ikigai.
Thanks to you kind of have amore hopeful future and I
definitely feel I'm in a much,much better place now than a few
years ago.
So that's a little bit of mystory.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
Thank you for sharing that to me and to our listeners
.
And yeah, loss it does.
I'm sure this is not true, butall of our pain seems to come
from so much loss a personaspect of our childhood,
opportunity, our health and wehave to somehow deal with it.

(22:35):
You're actually part of acohort we're going through now
and we did have this discussionon, like what happens when
someone loses their ikigai, andKamiya did define it as a
collapse of your value system.
So, looking back now on thoseexperiences, would that be A way

(22:58):
to articulate what it's likewhen you have significant loss,
that you seem to lose thesevalues or not trust them anymore
, or you don't know how to makedecisions because of what are my
values now?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
I think the values aspect of it has not really come
until much later on.
Aspect of it has not reallycome until much later on, I
think, um, with this, two, let'ssay, quite traumatic events
happening soon after the other,for me it was really about
survival.
It's pure survival got to getthrough life, got to get through
each day and purely my ikigaisource was for my daughter,

(23:38):
survival for my daughter, forher future, to make sure that
she's in a safe, well-taken careplace.
And so that was why thedecision, even unwillingly, for
me to come back to Berlin, toGermany, was very clear.
It was really for thewell-being of my daughter.
Yeah, I mean choosing to kindof give up, you know, going

(24:00):
overseas.
Obviously I was not fit enoughto go abroad again, so that was
also kind of a huge losscareer-wise and having to make
the decision then to find a wayto work from home and to make it
work around my daughter, whichis what I do now.
So that's why I've kind of, youknow, turned my job into

(24:21):
staying connected with the aidsector but working from home,
and that's why I work as a staffcare career coach.
So I kind of had to make theseadjustments the way I really
dealt with grief, and this issomething that I've started to
communicate more and more forsome years now is the concept of
kintsugi.

(24:41):
I don't know if you could seethis piece here.
It's actually an issue a brokenceramic flower pot that I
actually have quite strongmemories of, and it fell off my
windowsill a couple of yearsback into bits.
And so I had the choice of well, I have quite sentimental

(25:02):
feelings for this pot, I couldjust throw it away and just buy
a new one, or I could actuallytry and mend it, you know, and
see if it can be reused.
And so kintsugi a term forthose who don't know is it's a
ceramic kind of, let's say, artartu in Japanese, of japanese,
of repairing broken yeah,pottery or ceramic pieces, and

(25:26):
it is normally repaired withglue stuck together.
But normally when we repairsomething, we will use the
invisible glue, right, becauseyou don't want to show the
cracks and where it's broken andyou kind of seal it together so
it becomes invisible.
But the art of kintsugi comesfrom the word king, which means
gold.
Tsugi is joining, so joiningwith gold, and the beauty of

(25:48):
this repair work is actuallyshowing the cracks deliberately
through the lines of golden glue, let's say it's glued together
with sprinkled with goldenpowder on top.
And so I decided to kind of usea kintsugi method to repair my
piece.
And it's wonderful I mean, it'sstill functional but I have it

(26:12):
always in the background toremind me that, yeah, actually
humans also can have thiskintsugi effect.
You know, we as humans, we canalso be broken into bits, and I
call it the cracks or the scarsof life sometimes.
And I think we all bear thesescars of life, whether they are

(26:32):
visible or invisible.
I mean for me both.
I have visible scars, obviously, from my surgeries.
I have the invisible scars fromall the grief and the trauma
that I have lived.
And so, yeah, I guess it's thatmoment where I ask myself why I
have a choice here.
You know, do I allow myself tojust fully grieve and just, you

(26:54):
know, put myself in the, in thecupboard and live covered in
dust?
Or, you know, would I like toalso maybe share my cracks of
life and scars and make use ofit and maybe share it with
others and see if it can bebeautified.
Of course, it would never bebeautified in the old, original
way, but in a new, different way, and that's the beauty of the

(27:15):
kintsugi art as well it's thebroken bits being repaired and
being restored and hopefully,you know, being reused again,
and so that's kind of an analogythat I use more or less in
everything I do today actually.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
It is a beautiful craft and my father-in-law's
brother actually practicesKintsugi.
So it's really interesting howthe West gives new life to these
words, or, you know, weinternalise it, whereas maybe in
Japan it's just an aesthetic ofpottery like wabi-sabis, just

(27:51):
an aesthetic of something thatyou know makes you feel a
certain way about impermanenceand fading beauty or something.
And yeah, kintsugi is this ideaof, I guess, embracing our life
and if we have scars we don'thave to hide them.
They're a part of who we areand a part of what makes us

(28:11):
whole through, I guess, theknocks, and sometimes we break
and we have to pull ourselvestogether.
So, yeah, japan has thesebeautiful crafts that can
poetically express these ideas.
So you actually posed thisquestion when we were sharing
notes for this episode.

(28:33):
So I will ask it what meaningdo you take from these losses
today?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I mean, grief has really taught me to really just
live life to the full.
I think that's what the griefexpert, david Kessler, says you
know grief fully, but alsoremember to live fully.
And I think that reallyresonates with yeah, I have to
also take those moments togrieve.
I think I'm learning that griefis something that doesn't go

(29:03):
away over time and then you kindof move on.
No, not at all, it's notsomething that you move on from,
it's something you move forwardwith.
So I feel that my identity hascompletely changed since these
events have happened.
I think I'm a completely newperson.
I walk in the shadows, let'ssay, of my late husband with me

(29:24):
and with all the decisions thatI make.
So, yeah, I mean, there's acomplete transformation, I feel.
And again it comes back to thatmindset of choice and decision.
You know, which way do I go?
Do I choose to just sit in togrieve fully, or do I also then
decide to live fully as well?
And I chose to live.

(29:45):
Obviously, I also chose to,yeah, maybe give myself a chance
to maybe find new love again,because I know this is what my
husband would want.
So it takes time, obviously, toprocess all this, but I have my
good days, I have my bad dayseverybody but I feel that I do
have to be extra aware andintentional also with my

(30:08):
decisions to make sure that Idon't kind of, you know, spiral
down.
And I guess my anchor really ismy daughter.
You know I want to stay healthy, stay fit.
For her, I also want to kind ofleave a legacy and also show
her that you know, you can stilllive your life fully even in
this deep sadness of losing, youknow, your father.
You live for the purpose, andif living for your father or for

(30:31):
my husband is what bringsmeaning, then absolutely it's
worth it, and so that's kind ofthe meaning I take.
And so I'm living quiteintensively and things are
happening to me and I've beendoing crazy things I think I
would have never done before ifI was just, you know, happily in

(30:51):
my old life, in my marriage,and so, yeah, I'm really
embracing, let's say, theseevents.
I take it as a curse and ablessing.
A curse that it's veryunfortunate that this happened,
but because of that I'm blessedto be able to find the strength
and the energy to do all theseother things I would have never
done.
And this is a little bit.

(31:12):
Yeah, the message I also shareto many people or to clients who
come to me to say that, yeah,life is truly very short.
We're living in a world ofchaos and, who knows, this could
be our last day.
We could be struck with illness.
Somebody in our close familycould also be taken away anytime
, any day, and that's been thebiggest life lesson for me to

(31:35):
really embrace life as if itreally could be your last day.
So, yeah, I'm doing that, soI'm really reaching out to
people, to those maybe I neverhad a chance to apologize or to
say to the people, really say tomy mum more and more that I,
you know, I love her, which is avery non-Japanese way of
expressing your love and emotion, but I do it anyway, because

(31:57):
it's a life without regret thatI don't want.
So that's a little bit also themessage I share to my audience
and my community.
Well, that's a life withoutregret that I don't want.
So that's a little bit also themessage I share to my audience
and my community.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Well, it's a very meaningful and powerful message
and I think you do it very well.
So, yeah, I'm really gratefulthat our paths crossed and I
knew you had been on one of mywebinars and you'd also invested
in the summit.
So we go back longer than Irealize.
So thank you for beinginterested in what I do, and

(32:29):
we'll talk about all the crazystuff that you do now with your
life a little bit later.
But yesterday we were talkingabout our values, and one that
came up for you was bravery, andthis is perhaps a value and
strength of yours.
I think it is.
I think you're very brave,resilient, and we touched on

(32:50):
this briefly.
But, yeah, you're obviouslybrave in the work you've done in
the past and the work that youdo now, so I think it's a value
you've probably had for a longtime.
So, yeah, have you always hadthis value or did you develop it
with life experience more andmore?

Speaker 1 (33:14):
I'm laughing because it's yeah, it's.
Thank you for that question.
I think it's a brilliantquestion.
It's really has.
Uh, it did really make me thinkand I think my answer is it
goes back again to my mother.
I think I get this from mymother.
I mean, when you think about awoman in her, what, what was she
mid 30s, late 30s, to leaveJapan on her own?

(33:37):
This is a conventional timeswhere you know, know arranged
marriage had to happen.
I mean, she went against, youknow, everybody in Japan to go
to England, and that takescourage and bravery and then,
yeah, then arriving to Englandwith not much English, with very
little money, and then just,you know, building this life and

(34:00):
just, I guess, being resilientwith whatever comes her way and
so just remarkable and I think Iget that from her maybe yeah,
and also just growing up,hearing her stories and looking
up to my mom, you know, being asingle mom, full-time working

(34:20):
mom as well, but always beingavailable for us and, yeah, just
an amazing role model for meand I think I've kind of taken
that on also as early on.
You know, living both in Japanand the UK.
That also takes resilience andadjustment and, yeah, I guess I
had to take some courageoussteps as well.

(34:41):
And, yeah, I guess I had totake some courageous steps as
well.
Yeah, I mean one thing I didn't, uh, I wanted to mention also,
which is a phenomena that'sbecoming more and more well
known now, is the third culturekid.
I don't know if you know thisterm, nick.
It's a phenomena of kids who,or families who, often move
around.
It happens with military family, diplomats or, you know, let's
say, expat families, who ofchildren who are born in a

(35:05):
country other than their parentspassport country, let's say.
And then you move again, andthen you kind of find your
identity with whoever you findlocally, and then with the
multiple moves you kind of, yeah, lost your sense of identity
and your belonging, and so thisis something I guess didn't
exist back then in the 80s, andI guess for my parents as well

(35:29):
they weren't aware of thisphenomena and also the emotional
, maybe struggles that mybrother and I had moving between
UK and Japan, and I mean it'smuch more well now.
There was a much biggercommunity of TCK families and
there's much more informationbeing shared about how you can
better support your children.
So it's kind of a shame that mymother, let's say my parents,

(35:53):
didn't have that to support us.
But being a mother now and kindof having a TCK child myself, I
mean my daughter, you knowshe's Japanese, british, say,
turkish, but she grew up inKosovo, in the Balkans, and she
grew up thinking that she wasfrom Kosovo and unfortunately,
yeah, a big struggle.
I think that can be anexperience by families and

(36:16):
children who do move around.
But yeah, going back to mymother, I mean she didn't have
that kind of, let's say,knowledge or wasn't informed
about the tck phenomena but, um,yeah, she supported us in in
the best that she could,obviously and uh, and she
continues to inspire me and yeah, so the resilience that she's

(36:37):
taught me.
I pass it now on now to mydaughter, because we've moved
also, obviously, in manycountries and I can see how she
is very much independent, muchmore, let's say, than, let's say
, other kids of her age, and thecourage as well.
So I think it goes hand in handwith being resilient, kind of
learning to face your fears.
So it's about also beingvulnerable and accepting that

(37:01):
vulnerability and also choosingto, yeah, do something about it,
to overcome it, rather thanrunning away from your fears.
And that's something I'm tryingto cultivate more and more,
especially now since my husbanddied and with the illness, it's
just taught me that, yeah, inorder to survive, you've got to
be resilient, you've got to becourageous, you've got to be

(37:21):
resilient, you've got to becourageous.
And if I can do that indifferent ways, then maybe I can
also again share this to othersand help others who may be
struggling in a similarsituation like me, wow.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Well, there you go.
I'm always inspired by people,but I do seem to stumble upon
very inspiring women throughIkigai Tribe, so we should do a
shout-out to your mother.
I don't know if she'll listento this episode, but that's
great.
You see her as this inspiringfigure and, yeah, I was going to
jokingly say, man, she reallymust have loved the Beatles too.

(37:54):
So, basically, leave everythingand go to London with so much
uncertainty and not being fluentin the language, and make a
life there, a successful life,both family and business, and
despite all those challenges.
So, yeah, that's inspiring.
So let's shift gears and talkabout the things you do now that

(38:17):
give you, I guess, a sense ofIkigai, and this includes, I
guess, what, what you?
I think you framed it like this, I'm not sure ikigai, bucket
list challenges or just bucketlist challenges.
So would you like to share yourmost recent bucket list
adventure?

Speaker 1 (38:34):
well, uh, if I may, I just maybe kind of set the
context of how this all happened.
Yeah, I guess this bucket listchallenge really started a year
or two after my husband's deathof just being ready to really
live life fully again, but in aquite intense manner, because I
think time was also a thing.
You know, it was a big theme inmy life that, yeah, we don't

(38:58):
have so much time much in life.
Who knows how much time we have, especially, you know, if we're
ill, then eventually our healthgives in.
And so I was just in a veryplayful, creative space and I
just came up with I have allthis time.
Now.
What were all the things I saidI always wanted to do?

(39:20):
And it started with surfing andI thought I was in my end 40s
and I thought, oh, if I wasyoung again, I would love to, I
would have loved to have done.
Surfing was always somethingthat I was saying to myself and
there was a moment I thought,well, you know, why not try?
Okay, I am in my late 40s,maybe I can prove it to myself

(39:40):
and to the other late 40s thatit is possible.
So it started with a surfingchallenge and out of all the
places, I chose Denmark, thecoldest place, to go surfing,
with a very thick wetsuitobviously.
So I decided just to try it.
You know, not a huge challenge,it's just to just to try the

(40:00):
experience.
And so I just took a half a daysurfing course and you know, I
was.
I was never really got on thesurfboard, but it was just a
whole experience.
I mean, I just love water.
I've been a swimmer nearly allmy life.
I just amateur enthusiasticswimmer since a child.
And so I was just open andcurious and just started to try
surfing and I did it.

(40:22):
It was great.
I still go surfing.
I still can't stand on theboard, it's okay, but I just
love that whole experience ofgoing in the water with the
board waiting for the waves.
It's just taking in that momentof surfing.
And that's where it all startedand I thought, well, it would be
great if I could do a challenge, one challenge each year.
And so the following year itwas when the pandemic hit, so,

(40:46):
if you remember, we were verymuch indoors and there was just
a moment where, yeah, I justneeded to move.
So I love dancing and sosomehow I came up with this
insane idea of doing a flash mob.
If you know what a flash mob is, it's one of those public dance
surprises when one startsdancing in the street out in the
public and the second one joins, the third one joins, and yeah.

(41:10):
So I just chose a very upbeat,dancing physical song.
Yeah, I kind of wanted todedicate it to raising awareness
about breast cancer actually.
So it was a kind of my messageto say, yeah, thanks to those
families and the professionalswho supported me and this song
and dance is for you.
So that was kind of our message.

(41:31):
And so I created t-shirts, mydaughter actually created the
logo and I got a crowd ofparents, their kids.
It was just amazing and we wereall indoors because it was uh,
covid and uh, and we met weeklyand we choreographed some dance,
uh moves and I kind of decidedto bring it out in the open.
We weren't really uh, allowed,but then I, with a very much

(41:54):
smaller group, we actually wentout into a park, an open space
park, and that's where we metfor the first time with all the
other dancers and we did ourdance out in the open and it was
all videoed.
And so, yeah, it was awesome,it was just fantastic.
And then, yeah, as the yearswent by, I was stretching more

(42:16):
my challenge.
So I did a busking challengebefore I turned 50.
And so, as I mentioned earlier,music really helped me during
my healing and my therapy, andso I picked up my guitar and
started to take guitar lessonsthrough my cancer therapy.
Breathing work is also very,very important for the physical
healing.
So I was doing quite a lot ofbreath work and singing had

(42:39):
really helped for me.
So I thought bring the guitarand the singing together.
Maybe I could bring this againout in the open and do a busking
challenge and just sit thereand play music until I raise 10
euros.
And so I did that a week beforemy 50th birthday.
So I did that and that wasawesome.
And then, um, yeah, the yearafter I did a mini triathlon

(43:01):
with my daughter.
And the last challenge issomething I had to really do a
lot of practice on.
It's free diving.
So free diving for those whodon't know it's very much
different from scuba diving.
It's basically diving withoutthe oxygen tank.
It's diving with your ownbreath.

(43:24):
So that was kind of a challengeI always wanted to do.
It wasn't so much aboutchallenging myself, going you
know deep down to how manymeters, it was more the whole
experience, because I had heard,deep, free diving is also
learning out, being very relaxedand being calm.
It's also a lot about breathwork.
It's also about trusting yourown breath and, yeah, trusting
your physical body and the mind,because there's a lot of it is

(43:46):
a mind game as well in the water, where it can obviously pose as
much risk and threat.
And so I kind of was up forthat challenge, to be guided,
obviously, by a very good uhinstructor.
So I did that, yeah, just a fewweeks ago and, um, very pleased
.
But what I do want to say, nick, is, uh, it's not just only

(44:10):
doing these uh challenges forthe sake of the challenges, it's
just really the whole journey,all the learnings, the lessons,
the you know, encounteringdifferent new people, the
community yeah, really learningabout facing your fears, how to
overcome it.
For me, I had to do a lot ofstuff out in the open and the
public.
I consider myself quite shy,but I had to learn to also be

(44:34):
out in the open to do my dancemove, to do my singing, and
that's where the skill ofcourage really came in.
More and more, the more I wasable to feel comfortable singing
outdoors, the more I was morecomfortable dancing outdoors.
That just gave me an even morestronger sense of courage and
with that, obviously, you buildmore self-belief, you build more

(44:56):
self-confidence and I thought,wow, wouldn't that be amazing if
I could then also share thiswith others.
And so my Ikigai program iskind of.
You know, we talk aboutmeaningful relationships,
meaningful jobs in Ikigai, butfor me it's about cultivating
meaningful challenges throughIkigai, and that's kind of what

(45:17):
I do in my Ikigai workshops.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Love it Very inspiring.
Do in my ikigai workshops.
Love it very inspiring.
I did watch a documentary onfree diving and it was pretty
confronting.
I think it was dealing withpeople who were trying to break
a depth record with one breathand I mean part of it looked
amazing like you have thismoment where you're surrounded
by water, you're in this calmstate and I'm sure you have this
moment where you're surroundedby water, you're in this calm

(45:42):
state and I'm sure you havethese kind of moments of clarity
or very unique experience, butthen you have to obviously get
back to the surface.
But yeah, it was sort offascinating how I guess you know
being in the element of waterand probably hyper aware, and

(46:09):
there's this incredible riskthat I guess adds in some way or
some part to the experience tofeel that you're alive, I guess,
to feel this new way of living,even if it's for a couple of
minutes.
How long can you hold yourbreath now?
It is a couple of minutes,isn't it?
Yeah, how long can you holdyour breath now?
It is a couple of minutes,isn't it?

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, my record is two minutes and 30 seconds, but
that comes from really a lot ofpractices where I started from
25 seconds, 40 seconds.
So it does take a lot ofpractice and preparation.
But the beauty of freediving isreally it's about really
learning to be calm andcollected is how I describe it.
It's really 80% is reallypreparation.

(46:43):
It's like really bringing yourmind in a place where you can
feel very relaxed, in tune withyour body, with yourself,
trusting yourself, and only thenyou can then really work on
taking that deep, lost breathand holding it.
And once you are able to dothat, yeah, it's an amazing
feeling and I really try to usethat analogy more and more, also

(47:07):
in my work as a coach, where Ihave clients who have come
because of the world I meanchaos that's happening in the
world right now with a lot ofjob losses.
So, of course, as a career coach, it's a season where I have
clients approaching me forneeding support to look for
another job or changing careers,and I always will use this

(47:29):
analogy of you know, let's tryto invest in that time of you
know, be connected with yourself, come to a place where you can
really feel calm and collected,because that's only then when
you can have a wider perspectiveor what, what is around you,
because I guess when you'reworking, as you know, we're kind
of on the hamster wheel.
All we see is work, work, work,work.

(47:50):
And that's what we're used to,that's what we're comfortable
with and obviously once we'reoff that hamster wheel we just
want to get back on it.
So there's a sense of urge, asense of panic, and that's why's
why I want to catch the clientsand say, well, we have to learn
to kind of be in a space ofbeing a bit more calm and

(48:10):
collected and really think ofthe different options, rather
than trying to find another jobto go back on that hamster wheel
.
So I take really a lot oflearning from this freediving.
Absolutely, it's an amazingexperience.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
I do love the idea, this idea of what challenge
would really make you come alive, and obviously something new
that you haven't done before,especially in water, like this
element.
You know that we're made fromthat's part of nature and the
whole.
I guess it's very Shigeki, thewhole stimulation of it.

(48:46):
So I'd be interested to learnwhat your next one will be.
But we'll move on.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
What about you, nick?
What would be?
What's a good challenge orsomething that you've always
wanted?

Speaker 2 (49:01):
to do.
Well, something that was achallenge I it's it's still work
related, but it was thissomething I was always telling
my Ikigai tribe members I wasgoing to do and that was to do a
retreat.
And when I told them it didn'tfeel real just like a pie in the
sky kind of thing, and I kindof thought I'm sort of lying to

(49:24):
myself every time I say this,you know, some years ago.
And then last year I justthought, nah, I'm going to do
this.
And I went to Japan three timesto really prepare for it.
And I was very lucky, I have avery good friend who helped me
plan it all.
But it was months and months ofpreparation.

(49:45):
I almost did the retreat myselfjust to experience it and
ensure it would be somethingvaluable.
And then, yeah, you can only doso much preparation and then
you do it.
And so there was all thisuncertainty and I thought, can I
do this?
Like I'm kind of safe behindthe computer screen and I can

(50:08):
have all my slides and all theseresources, but bringing people
together for a unique experienceand then booking everything,
organ organizing all the meals,everything, and then trusting it
.
So that was, you know,something new, a challenge, and
it was like a challenge just toget it to be ready and then

(50:32):
meeting all these people who Iknew but hadn't met in person,
and then spending a week withthem.
And yeah, you know there wasobviously some challenges and
all the logistics and everything, but it was a great success and
it made me think, oh, peoplereally matter to me and being
with them in person seems tomake me come alive, so that was

(50:53):
something.
Yeah, that really was ahighlight and I thought, oh,
this is potentially where thefuture of the business is too.
But, yeah, I'm starting tothink, oh, what about a
challenge just for me, some sortof new challenge?
So you've inspired me, so I'llgive that some thought.
I'll get back to you.
So, thank you.

(51:15):
So, related to this, what makeslife worth living and, I guess,
having these moments is youshared something special with me
that you and your mother arereading through Miiko Kamiya's
book Ikigai ni Tsuite togetheronline.
Obviously, your mother is inEngland, so it sounds like

(51:35):
that's something you're reallyenjoying and it's, you know,
perhaps even bringing you closertogether.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yeah, absolutely, this actually started during the
pandemic.
Rather than just having exchangecalls over video, I thought
maybe really use this time Imean, she lives on her own in
London and of course she had herrestrictions.
So I thought maybe create a waywhere we can interact, where she
can actually talk to somebody,because there could be days

(52:02):
where she would not even talk toanybody.
So I kind of created sort ofyeah, over how many weeks I
think was over two months or sowe talked about first it was it
was talking about her life, Ithink, because I always talked
about wanting to write a bookabout her life, because I just
find it just fascinating a womanof her time and she's very

(52:23):
humble and modest and says, ohwho would want to read about my
life?
And so I kind of suggestedmaybe writing a book together.
And so it started with theseinterviews, of having weekly
interviews about her life and Ihad created different chapters
of, I mean, her name is Yoshi,so Yoshi as a child, yoshi as
the elder sister, yoshi as thedaughter, eventually a mother, a

(52:45):
working, you know woman,immigrant arriving into England,
you know, yoshi as a wife andthe Yoshi today, sort of thing.
So it's a whole videointerviews over, captured over
10, 10 hours, and the topic ofIkigai actually really did come
up a few times.
And then that's when I wasinspired by you, nick, about

(53:07):
this australian guy who was, uh,trying to create this movement
to correct the real meaning ofikigai, and then that kind of
led into this project of um,yeah, mom, do you know this?
It's called Ikigai Nitsuite byKamiya Miyako, and she knew it
immediately.
She says, yes, of course, Iread it.
I even have a copy of mybookshelf now.

(53:27):
And then recently she just toldme about her first encounter to
Ikigai.
She told me she was 17 yearsold in Japan and that was the
first moment where she realizedwhat is Ikigai for me.
And she told me that her ikigaiat 17 years old was to help
people.
Wow, yeah, to help people.

(53:48):
And then she had this vision ofeventually going overseas,
going abroad, maybe working fora charity, working as a
volunteer.
And back then she said therewas the un university school in
tokyo, in oyama, and she hadalways, yeah, she had wished
that she could study there sothat she could, you know, move

(54:09):
abroad and maybe eventually workfor the un as a diplomat or so.
But, yeah, again, this is a timewhere she was the eldest in the
family, her mother.
So my grandmother was was quiteill.
She had to take care the family.
There was not enough money, andso she kind of gave up the idea
.
But she shared this beautifulikigai moment with me recently,

(54:30):
when she was 17, and then Ithought, wow, how amazing that
actually what you were not ableto achieve is somehow being the
soul has been transported to meand you know I've been doing
exactly what you were not ableto achieve has somehow been the
soul has been transported to meand you know I've been doing
exactly what you had, you know,dreamt of, without me even
knowing.
And that, wow, wow, that wasjust very, very, very powerful

(54:51):
and, um, yeah, so we spoke aboutKamiya Miyako's book and then I
got myself a copy and then Irealized it was very difficult.
As you know, japanese is notreally my first language and yet
alone it's very difficultJapanese.
And so I thought, well, thiscould be a good opportunity for
me to learn Japanese all overagain, and why not do it over
this book and as an opportunityto create meaningful

(55:14):
conversations with my mum byreading the book.
So we kind of started, still onchapter two or three right now,
because it does take a bit oftime.
I've downloaded the audioversion because somehow maybe I
can take it in better when Ilisten to it.
And yeah, we've kind of stalledat the moment, but the topic of
Ikigai is still in our family.
We talk about it also.

(55:35):
She also shares about what I'm,my interest in Ikigai with her
own family in japan, so it'skind of been a topic when we
come all together.
Yeah, and before I forget, sheactually also told me back in
those days because you know kamiand miyoko that we were living
in switzerland and she, she hada brother and his brother was
actually teaching french on nhkthat day.

(55:56):
Did French on NHK, did you?

Speaker 2 (55:57):
know that.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
So he was teaching French through singing and it
was an NHK program and that mymother had always wanted to
learn French as well.
So she actually came acrossCamille Mirko's brother on a TV

(56:18):
program where he is teachingFrench through singing.
And still today, my mom canstill sing Sur le pont d'Avignon
on y danse, because that was asong that Camille Amieko's
brother was teaching.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Wow, I did not know that yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
And she also recently shared that with me as well,
and then she later then realizedthat with me as well, and then
she later then, yeah, realisedthat he was actually Kameneko's
brother because of course, theyspoke fluent French, living in
Switzerland and so, yeah, soIkigai has been pretty much in
my mum's life early on, yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
I mean that's kind of rare because I mean a lot of
Japanese don't really use theword.
I can't really recall hearingthe word that much in Japan,
where I'd hear certainly likeyarigai, yarigai ga aru all the
time, like almost every week.
So it's good to hear that youand your mom and extended family

(57:16):
discuss it, because it makesyou think, ah, it is alive among
Japanese and in Japan.
I kind of wish it was more.
It's such an important thingLike why do we live?
What makes our life feel worthliving?
Yeah, we only have this oneshort life, so we should make
the most of it.

(57:38):
Oddly, she had a veryunconventional life, but also a
lot of pain and loss and a lifethat would suggest she certainly
lacked Ikigai.
So maybe that's what allowedher to write on the subject.
But what do you think of herwork?
Because I kind of think it'slike wow, it's pretty much
positive psychology 35 yearsahead of the positive psychology

(58:01):
movement, and she was writingon all these topics of life
satisfaction, change and growth,purpose, self-actualization.
So amazing that she was writingon these subjects, sort of 35
years ahead of these fathers ofpositive psychology five years
ahead of Lee's fathers, ofpositive psychology.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yeah, I guess it's again, sadly, one of those
hidden figures that don't gettalked about enough.
I'm yet a woman as well, so Ithink it's never too late and
it's good that we are talkingabout it now, and I think it
would be great if there could bea movie about her life, because
absolutely it's very inspiringand I think even to this day,
many people could be inspired byher work and her love and her

(58:45):
hope for life for people who arecompletely desperate and
wanting to end their lives andgoing through very difficult
illness.
And yet having that belief andthat love for others is really
inspiring.
And yet having that belief andthat love for others is really
inspiring and that's very much,I think, what I do in my work as
well as a, you know, livingwith compassion, empathy for

(59:06):
others, and if you can help justone person, I mean that's the
return is also very rewarding aswell.
So I can somehow feel that her,yeah, her soul is still living
and I guess we kind of have tofind a way to, yeah, make that
alive and make her name, yeah,more known, I guess, more to the

(59:29):
world, through maybetranslating her work in English,
making a movie, talking aboutit more.
I mean, yeah, I think that hersoul will never die.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
So yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
We need to definitely get hersome recognition and it would be
nice to also I mean, I almost Imean the book's very difficult,
but you'd hope it would be abook schools might give
university students or it'sprobably too early for high

(59:58):
school students because it'ssuch a difficult book to read
but at least summarise it andsay there was this inspiring
woman and she wrote thisincredible book and then she
went on to write quite a fewmore books afterwards, but she
also had this incrediblyinspiring life.
Yeah, back then in the 40s, 50sand 60s, where I guess most

(01:00:20):
Japanese women could either be ateacher or a nurse or something
, she was a psychiatrist,linguist, translator,
interpreter, professor.
Then all those things didn'tseem to matter to her.
She really wanted to write sofascinating, write so

(01:00:46):
fascinating, and she was even atutor to the former Empress
Michiko and was an interpreterfor the Tokyo war crimes trial.
So she was like an absoluterock star.
We don't know, no one reallyknows her.
So I'm all for getting her nameout there, and I'm sure you
mentioned her in your workshopsand the coaching you offer.
So would you like to touch on,yeah, what you offer for your

(01:01:07):
own Ikigai coaching?

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Yeah, I mean, what I do, nick, is I pass on your
message.
I mean, I am a follower of yourmovement, of your tribe, and so
your name is also mentioned,thank you.
And it really just all startedalso with the same feeling I had
with you, just feeling veryuncomfortable with this Venn

(01:01:31):
diagram that's just beencompletely misused here, and
feeling, yeah, the calling is,yeah, we need to correct this,
it is being misunderstood,misunderstood.
So that is where it all startsfrom and I, I really, yes, I
take on the message that youshare to others as part of your
movement and spreading the word.
And then then, of course, thenI share my own experience being

(01:01:53):
japanese, my understanding ofikigai, and then showing, yeah,
sharing my ikigai sources andhow that's collectively become.
Then my ikigai bucket.
Then showing, yeah, showing myikigai sources and how that's
collectively become.
then my ikigai bucket listchallenge and, yeah, and saying
that, yes, it is possible, butum, it's just I love this quote,
and maybe I've got also thisquote, uh, from you as well, on
what is ikigai, and I think it'ssaori okada who says yes,

(01:02:14):
ikigai is really aboutmeaningful challenges when life
is hard love it and that was sorelevant.
It was just so prompt, on time,with what you know what was
going on in my life and, yeah,being able then to turn this,
you know, really tap into ikigaito do all the things that I was
doing was was just somethingthat I felt I needed to to share

(01:02:39):
to others because because Ijust knew that I'm not alone in
this, there are many others whoare grieving, many others who
are going through loneliness,going through a lot of fears in
life.
You know, with this digital age, with this global chaos that's
going on.
So, who knows, maybe Ikigai cansave our humanity today.

(01:03:05):
Yeah, we certainly need it more,and you're right, we are living
in a chaotic world thatseemingly can't get more chaotic
, but somehow does so yeah, so Ikind of, I kind of elaborate,
so I really go into myexperience, because I don't kind
of want to impose, to say, youknow, this is what you need to
do, but I just try to share mystory and try to show you know

(01:03:29):
how Ikigai, the Ikigai path, haskind of helped me or is helping
me.
Let's say it's still a journey.
I talk about it still as a pathon the journey and then
hopefully inspire others tomaybe try it out themselves.
Yeah, I mean for me.
I mean when we talk aboutvalues or talk about life skills

(01:03:49):
, I mean what has really shownup for me is the feeling of
being playful, and by beingplayful you kind of have to let
go.
So kind of letting go alsomeans, yeah, kind of the process
of letting go also means, yeah,learning to to kind of let go
of your fears, and by doing thatyou, yeah, you become then
playful, you become creative andthen when you're in the space

(01:04:12):
of being curious, then you kindof can allow yourself to be
stretched a bit, and then that'swhere the challenge comes in
with maybe I could push myselfto do a bit more and try out,
but without taking it tooseriously.
For me, really doing it in aplayful manner has to be always
present, because otherwise itcould just give me sleepless

(01:04:33):
nights, but if I can walk awaywith a smile or a laugh and joke
about it, and so humor, I meanif there's one thing my husband
left as legacy, it's his humor.
He was a very, very humorousperson and just never took life
seriously.
Of course he took it serious,but he was able to kind of deal
with an argument with with humorand laughter, with a joke and

(01:04:55):
and for me that's something Ireally want to take on and it
works and it works.
And it works If it can upliftyou and make you feel lighter
from a very heavy situation,then, yeah, it can take you far.
So I'm just kind of practicingall this, let's say, and trying
to be very intentional anddocumenting it and then see if
I'm able then to use this toshare and to help others.

(01:05:17):
So I guess, yeah, I'm kind ofliving the legacy of my mom as
well, who wanted to help otherswhen she was 17.
And that was her ikigai, and soyou know, I take that as my
calling today.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Well, it sounds like both you and your mother have
helped many people and that'songoing and I'd certainly like
to one day who knows, somehowcollaborate with you and do a
workshop or something together,maybe in Japan or somewhere in
Europe.
So, yeah, there's all thispossibility.
So that's something I oftenthink about.

(01:05:52):
There's all this possibilityand you never know, one thought
and one decision can radicallychange your life and I'll never
forget the night.
I thought, like screw it, I'mgoing to build a website, I'm
going to interview, I'm going totry and interview Professor
Hasegawa Like I'll try and getthis man to come onto the

(01:06:13):
podcast.
And yeah, the next day I wasjust like got to come up with a
name gotnikigaitribecom builtthe website in a day.
I was just like got to come upwith a name, got
NickyGuyTribecom built thewebsite in a day, sent an email
and within two days he said,yeah, I'll join the podcast.
And very courageous, because hecan't really speak English at
all.
So I admired his courage andI'll be so grateful and it's

(01:06:38):
changed my life, and here I amtalking to you, you know, five
years later.
So one decision can really,when it feels right, when you
feel your intuition is saying dothis, yeah, you've really got
to take a risk and and you neverknow where it can lead and I
have this amazing network offriends.
My life is meaningful.

(01:07:00):
You know, this is my Ikigai,the work that I do.
So, yeah, be playful, take arisk.
All these things you talk ofcan change your life and, I
guess, make life you know feelworth living.
So, with all that in mind, weshould probably end and touch on
your three Ms of Ikigai, sowould you like to share them?

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Oh, yeah, the three M's.
The three M's that I tried todo as an Ikigai practitioner is
music, movement and mindfulness,because it's really these three
things that have helped methrough through my own journey,
through my own healing, throughfinding myself again.
And yeah, music, as as Imentioned early, was the first

(01:07:41):
kind of therapy I came incontact with after my second
surgery, cancer surgery and andthat was just amazing and it was
just expressing through yourbody, different parts of your
body as breath work taking,experimenting with different
instruments and sounds.
And yeah, I mean I was aself-taught guitar player back

(01:08:02):
in my university days, um, butsince then, yeah, I kind of
invested time and took someguitar lessons.
I love singing everywhere in theshower.
I'm like a purebred karaoke.
I mean, some people call mejune kashi okay, because I
always that could be my futurebrand name.

(01:08:24):
I think I need to open akaraoke parlor called Kashioke
Karaoke because it just bringsme joy.
It brings me joy.
I bring a karaoke set during myoverseas assignment and I do a
stress management workshopsthrough karaoke, like release
your voice, singing, and man, itworks.

(01:08:45):
And so, yeah, singing and musichas really helped me and I try
to, yeah, do that more and morewith my daughter as well,
because I know that will helpher as well.
So she loves to sing.
She played the trumpet at andnow she's slowly also picking up
my guitar.
And it would be amazing if wecould do, if we could both now
busk on the streets and sing andplay music.

(01:09:06):
So music is really somethingthat would always stay with me.
So movement, yeah, I loveswimming, so I try to regularly
go to the swimming pool.
We live near a lake here inBerlin, so in the summer I, we
live near a lake here in Berlin,so in the summer I go swimming
outdoors and a beautiful forest.
I literally left the city tomove to the suburbs here to be
close to the nature, and I'mliterally, yeah, five minutes

(01:09:29):
away from the woods and theforest and that's kind of my
spiritual sanctuary, I'll callit.
I go into the woods every dayfor an hour and a half for a
good walk, and that's where themindfulness also comes in,
because I'm not the type who canjust sit cross-legged and do
Zen meditation.
I meditate when I swim, Imeditate when I walk, and then

(01:09:52):
I'm really able to get quitecreative.
I can really tune into, yeah,my voice and my feelings, and so
I really try to make sure Ihave all those three every day
and, yeah, it helps me, itreally does help me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
There we go.
So I like the three amps, so Ilove music too.
So, yeah, I struggle when Idon't exercise, so I always do a
little bit every day and Ithink it's crucial to have
mindfulness or that kind ofquiet time where you try and
stop all your thoughts and thinkhang on, what am I thinking?

(01:10:31):
What am I feeling?
What's a better question to askme at this moment, because most
of the time we're dealing withchaos our own internal chaos.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
So, and then the external chaos, yeah and I
notice also, the first firstthing when I wake up in the
morning is when I'm very freshand very much myself.
And so I I heard this term fromsomebody, somebody else
meditation, so you can meditatein bed.
So I often also wake up having,yeah, time to meditate, and

(01:11:04):
then I also have a journalnearby as well.
So I love to journal and it'sall good, it's all good stuff.
It's just a way to just toconnect with oneself and it's
cultivating right.
So it's a practice.
And without doing that, then ofcourse you, you know we'll be
lost in all the chaotictranslation that's happening
around us.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
So well, june, thank you so much for sharing your
life with me and our listenerstoday, and the lessons and your
inspiration and your positivity.
It's a real joy to connect withyou and, yeah, as I said before
, look forward to collaboratingwith you somehow in the future.

(01:11:45):
So thank you for your timetoday.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Thank you, Nick.
Thank you for having me Takecare.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
My pleasure.