April 8, 2025 • 65 mins
Shinto, Japan's indigenous religion, is strongly rooted in animism, with Japanese believing that objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. Shinto does not have a single creator or specific doctrine, and instead exists in a diverse range of local and regional forms emphasising a sacred connection between humans and the natural world.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Taishi Kato about the deep-rooted significance of Shinto and the ongoing efforts to preserve its rich heritage.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I can say it's like kind of the essence of Shinto
Musubi.
Now, musubi refers to the powerto connect and bring things
together.
It's a working of, betweensomething and anything.
(00:21):
Right?
How can I say Everything in theuniverse?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Interconnects.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Ah, yeah, that's right.
Connective power.
So everything in the universe,so nature, people, objects and
even emotions, is interconnected.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Taishi Kato, a
licensed Shinto priest.
Taishi serves at the HatoriTenjingu Shrine in the bustling
city of Osaka, trying to strikea balance between preserving
(01:15):
tradition while also innovatingand looking beyond it.
Having studied in London andlectured on Shinto to an
international audience, Tashi ison a mission to spread the
wisdom of Shinto to the world,believing that underneath its
uniquely Japanese form, it isabundant with universal insights
(01:37):
that we would all benefit fromlearning.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I could call you Kanushi, or Icould call you Negi-san, but
maybe I'll call you Taishibecause you already feel like a
friend.
So thank you.
Thank you for joining me today,Taishi.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Thank you so much for giving me the great opportunity
to talk about Shinto.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
My pleasure, thank you.
So what is fascinating, tashi,is you are the 22nd generation
Shinto priest in your family, sothat's a lot of history.
So were you always destined tobe a Shinto priest?
Actually, no, no.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
To be honest, when I was a child, I really didn't
want to become a Shinto priest.
So, as a 22nd generation ofShinto priests in my family, my
heritage influenced me a lot.
Actually, even my motherencouraged me to explore more
(02:46):
different possibilities.
So she said that I didn't needto follow my family tradition.
You can free to choose yourpath.
But the turning point cameduring my university.
Actually, I studied businesscommerce at my ko university and
(03:08):
most of my friends just likesearching for get carry, plus I
also hunting for a job at thattime.
But at that time I just found abook about my grandfather.
But my grandfather passed awaywhen I was a junior high school
student and, to be honest, Ididn't know well about my
(03:32):
grandfather.
My grandfather is so I'm soafraid of him.
He's so how can I say too, toostrong to me and he has a?
Maybe he didn't show me thelike his personality.
How can I say he is alwaysbeing a shinto priest?
(03:54):
So for me it's not likegrandfather.
But I just found a book about mygrandfather and actually he
became a chief priest at the ageof 22.
So 22 years old, wow, chiefpriest.
Yeah, chief priest, and at thattime I also, I was 22 years old
(04:18):
and he actually rebuilt atotally ruined Shinto shrine
together with local people.
Just maybe it has been justthree years.
He rebuilt the Shinto shrine,oh wow, and how can I say?
(04:38):
His dedication and hisachievements at a really such a
young age moved me a lot.
I didn't know well about mygrandfather, but I just felt a
connection with him and I justdecided to follow his footsteps.
(05:04):
And I just decided to followhis footsteps and I just decided
to preserve and pass thistradition to future generations.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I understand.
So he really dedicated his lifeto preserving Shintoism and
rebuilding this shrine for thecommunity.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I guess he took his role of a kanushi very seriously
.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, actually, he was in the position of top of
manager in Osaka when he wasmaybe 50 years old, so it's so
young.
He's kind of like a politician.
I see, maybe mygreat-grandfather is also Shinto
(06:06):
priest, but he is not Shintopriest at Hattori Tenshingu
shrine.
This is mine and my great-uncle.
He's still living this world,so he was a chief priest at
Ikuta shrine in hyogo prefecture.
(06:28):
This is one of the big shintoshrine in kansai area and maybe,
compared with ikuta shrine,hatori tenshin shrine is not so
big.
And how can I say mygrandfather is so makizug is, so
I don't know how to say it, hedoesn't like to lose, yes, and
(06:49):
also he wants to change theshrine's world.
How can I say no matter whatposition, it's equal right.
So it doesn't matter whatShinto shrines you are.
So he changed this kind of likeconsciousness and he try hard
to be like, act like politician.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I see, yes, that's interesting His shrine to be
more recognized.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.
So very dedicated to his roleof being a Shinto priest, but
also to establishing your shrine, hatori Tenjingu.
(07:36):
Well, there we go.
So that served as someinspiration for you.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, it inspired me even now.
So sometimes I thought that ifmy grandfather is here, how does
he how can I say do in thisworld?
So it's a really good way of myhow can I say?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Preserving his memory .
Yeah, receiving his button,continuing his work.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I'm sure he'd be very proud of you.
So we should talk about Shintoas a religion.
And it is fascinating.
And I do remember the day, Ithink, I was living in Japan and
I first discovered, oh, japanhas two religions, how unusual
(08:31):
and how can they be harmonious?
But now I think I understand.
But with Shinto it'sinteresting there's no founder,
no holy scriptures and even noconcept of conversion, so you
don't become a Shintoist, forexample.
(08:51):
Yeah, that's right.
So it makes it very unique as areligion.
But I imagine it's hard toexplain.
And then the word Shinto isoften translated to you know,
way of the gods.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
But also they're not really gods.
I've also seen it's translatedas the kami way, so that might
be more appropriate.
So how do you describeShintoism or Shinto, and what
are kami and how are theydifferent from gods?
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, it's always difficult to explain Shinto.
Even, as you know, japanesepeople don't know about the word
Shinto, even though they visitShinto shrine.
Yeah, and it's totallydifferent from the concept of
religion in Western countries.
And Shinto is a way of life inharmony with kami.
(09:48):
It's based on the idea thathuman beings are part of nature,
but it doesn't center on humanbeings.
It's a difference.
So I think it's not a good wayto say Shintoism.
I think it's a more proper wayto say Shintoism.
I think it's a more proper wayto describe Shinto.
Okay, and Shinto and Japan islike a rich in nature and with
(10:15):
about 70% of the land areacovered by mountains and forest,
but on the other hand, thecountry is also like.
There are many natural disasterhappen, such as earthquake,
typhoon, tsunami.
Japanese people appreciate theblessing of nature.
On the other hand, they livetogether with nature in all of
(10:40):
its harshness.
So it's inevitable to likeavoid the harshness of nature.
We cannot control nature's powerand in ancient Japan, people
(11:01):
depended on nature foragriculture and fishing, and
also they feared naturaldisasters.
So they believed that thesenatural forces are the working
of kami.
Like all powerful gods werecreators of the universe, were
(11:25):
more like sacred spirits presentin nature, such as mountains,
rivers, trees, even the wind andsand, and actually some kami
are also historical figures.
Maybe later we are talkingabout this is because this is
actually Hattori Tenjingushrines are kami of historical
figures.
Maybe later we are talkingabout this is because this is
actually Hattori Tenjingushrines are coming up like
(11:48):
historical figures.
So they made a big, greatcontribution to society.
So that's why so thesehistorical figures is also
enshrined at Shinto shrines, wow, and yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I didn't know people could be enshrined and then
become referred to as kamiHointan's emperor, have you ever
been to Meijin Shrine?
I have.
Yeah, oh, that's right.
Yes, that's true, that wasdesigned or created for him, but
(12:26):
I thought I didn't realize hewas also kami.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, mostly Japanese people don't know well
about this.
Is a kami of this Shinto shrine.
Maybe they just visit.
They can't identify.
Yeah, what is a shrine kami?
This is a very interestingpoint.
Yeah, visit, they cannotidentify what is an enshrined
kami.
This is a very interestingpoint.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, I mean, one of my questions, which we'll
probably talk about later, wasoh, is it more custom than
belief?
And my perception is, shinto ismore custom-based and the sense
of of, do you really believethere's a kami in everything?
I've never really heardJapanese talk about, but when
(13:12):
anyone in my social network is aChristian or if they're Muslim,
they really believe in this onepowerful God and, yeah, they
dedicate a lot of time maybe toprayer, to going to church.
So it's very interesting thedifference.
(13:34):
So I guess in Western religionsyou have faith, you have to
have faith in the idea of a God.
Where Shinto it seems to be, Iguess the perception is, oh,
it's so strongly connected tonature, that's, I don't know.
Maybe belief for me would beeasier.
(13:54):
It's like, oh, okay, well, wecome from nature, we are nature.
Nature teaches us so much.
It has this abundance.
We survive or we're allowed tolive because of nature, but also
, yeah, disasters can happen.
So, and I love the idea thatthere is a kami, some sort of
(14:18):
spiritual energy, in everything,because I think it encourages
you to respect it, to appreciatewhat you have.
And Japanese as a culture, theyseem to have far more respect
and appreciation for everythingthan most other cultures, so I
shouldn't push you.
(14:38):
But if we were to define Kami,would it be something like
spiritual energy?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, spiritual energy, yeah, spiritual energy.
Sometimes they describe lifeforce.
So life force yeah, butspiritual energy is a it's great
expression, I think, yeah, okay.
Or somebody it is also.
I think, yeah, okay.
Or sometimes deities also,because, as you know, there are
(15:10):
many types of kami in Japan, soit's not easy to define one word
.
Yes, so historical figures alsois enshrined, and also nature,
or even maybe sometimes someobject can be kami.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It's sort of vague, but it's still relatable,
because you could think well,there is a stone, there is a
tree, you can feel energy fromnature.
Yeah, Actually do you know?
There's no famous shinto priestin the history.
(15:52):
There's no famous shinto priest?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
yes, there's.
There are no shinto priest,famous shinto priest in the
history.
I think that's a hugedifference from the another
religion.
That's a huge difference fromanother religion because there
is no how can I say definitionof Shinto.
It's not the languagecommunication, it's more focused
on ritual communication.
(16:14):
So we cannot easily describe inlanguage.
That's a really important point.
To have a long history, to havelike long history, to have this
history, this culture, to thenext generation.
This is a Japanese wisdom, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yes, and it's very appealing because it's a very
different approach, and Ilearned from, for example, ken
Moggi, who's been a guest onthis podcast, the idea of
yaoyorozu no kami.
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's right, that'scorrect, which translates to
(16:54):
eight million gods.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
So could you touch on this?
Maybe this concept has been ahuge influence on Japanese
culture.
Maybe most of Japanese peopleuse this concept to explain a
lot of things in Japan.
I think, and maybe our reasonfor kami represents the belief
that kami exists everywhere.
(17:22):
So the number 8 million is notliteral but just symbolic, so
expressing the diverse presenceof kami.
So even how can I say the kamihas been increasing?
We cannot, you know, we caneasily.
(17:44):
How can I fix, oh, this is 8million, kami has been
increasing.
We cannot easily fix this is 8million kami.
It's always increasing, so it'snot easy to fix this kami
notion.
And so Shinto embraces the idea.
So multiple kami, co ko exist,each have their unique roles in
(18:10):
maintaining their balance in theworld.
So, for instance, there aremany kami of harvest, running
and rain and forest, and, ofcourse, food and protect
(18:31):
specific places.
And this concept allows forlike flexible and inclusive way
of thinking.
So where, like, even differenttradition can coexist in harmony
.
And, as you know, in Japan,buddhism and Shinto used to be
(18:53):
like syncretism, so even nowJapanese people cannot identify
which is temple, which is Shintoshrine.
So, and also Shinto, accepted,accepted art of religion, which
is Shinto shrine.
So, and also Shinto, how can Isay accepted art of religion,
yes, and to evolve in adifferent way.
(19:14):
So, because of the concept ofYawaru, no Kami, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It is interesting they use the number eight
because in Roman numerals it'salso the symbol of infinity,
because it's a closed yeah, it'slike a closed circuit.
And then the kanji for eightwidens.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Suggesting that what you just said.
The number of kami is probablyforever increasing.
And I think when you first hearthis as a foreigner it's like
very strange, like oh, how canthere be a God in everything?
But then of course it's not aGod, and then Japanese can't
(19:59):
explain it.
So that's another interestingthing.
But the customs involve oftenweekly or monthly behaviour.
There's a matsuri, or peoplejust go to the shrine because
they feel like going, or theyhave all these children's
festivals.
So it's very much part of theirculture.
Yet, as you keep saying, it'svery hard for them to explain
(20:23):
what it is, because I guess theyjust grow up with the religion.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
This concept.
As I said before, this conceptis very huge influence on
Japanese culture, withoutconsciousness.
For instance, we don't have thenotion of individual in Japan
and human being has a differentpersonality depending on the
(20:48):
environment.
How can I say, for instance, wehave a maybe different nickname
depending on the situation?
For me, when I stay Shintoshrine, call me as like Shinto
priest, or like Negi-san, but Ialso work at a kindergarten.
(21:10):
Actually, this is also myfamily heritage, and so children
call me as like sensei, teacher, and also I have a family.
So, depending on theenvironment, we have a different
personality and everything ischanging.
(21:32):
Everything is interactive,interconnected in this world, so
we cannot easily fix ourpersonality.
So this is maybe the concept ofYawaro's no kami also, I think.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It is interesting.
We do have multiple rolesFather, friend, in your case,
priest, teacher.
I've been a teacher, aconsultant, and now I guess I'm
almost an educator of Ikigai.
But you're right, I think inthe West there is this strong
(22:12):
sense of self and we valueindividualism, we pride
ourselves on being different andunique.
But in Japan it's very muchcollective harmony with others,
and I guess that goes back tothis idea of harmony with nature
and understanding.
(22:33):
You're part of a biggercollective, so it makes Japanese
this is a general ideaobviously more selfless.
But perhaps in the West we're abit more self-oriented,
self-focused.
Yeah, I do find going to Japanvery comfortable because of
(22:56):
these reasons.
Oh, I see, I seem to.
I don't know, just slip into theculture and think, oh, this is
nice, I don't know.
Just slip into the culture andthink, oh, this is nice, I don't
have to worry about too manythings.
I see, and there's also a lotof structure to Japan.
Kimari monk set expressions andbehaviour that makes it very
(23:19):
easy to understand what to do.
So, yeah, it's interesting.
I guess it's based on differentvalues.
So we should touch on the corevalues, shinto, which include
these ideas of harmony withnature, purity and cleanliness
and reverence for ancestors.
So would you like to talk onthese values?
(23:42):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Habiburhat Musububi.
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
this word musubi?
Is that musubi to?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
time, yeah, yeah yeah and also it's the expression of
the kami.
Actually, okay, I can say it'slike kind of the essence of
Shinto Musubi.
Now, musubi refers to the powerto connect and bring things
(24:11):
together.
It's a working of, betweensomething and anything.
Right?
How can I say Everything in theuniverse?
Interconnects oh yeah, that'sright.
Connective power, so everythingin the universe, so nature,
(24:32):
people, objects and evenemotions, is interconnected.
This belief is reflected inlike traditional customs such as
bow in ritual Bowing.
As a formal greeting right.
(24:52):
Yes, and actually during theritual at Shinto shrine there's
a time to offer prayer in aharmonious way.
So two bow, two claps and a bowand there is a representative
(25:15):
person there just offeringprayer.
They just in the same way tooffer prayer.
This is a symbol of harmony inthe ritual of Shinto shrine.
So we don't need to describeharmony in language, just to do
(25:36):
the ritual.
Instead of languagecommunication, we just do the
ritual communication.
You know that feels harmonywith everything.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
That is an interesting point, because if we
go to like, christians mightsing hymns or maybe Muslims
recite the Koran yeah, but inShinto you visit and clap your
hands twice and bow twice andthen you clap again.
(26:12):
Yeah, is that?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
correct.
Yes, two bows, two claps andone bow.
One bow, but it depends on theShinto shrine.
Some Shinto shrines aredifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And then, maybe silently, you would say a prayer
yes, just in your mind.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, but in my case I'm offered the Norito this
prayer I just sang to Kami Likeaddress name.
What's his prayer?
Okay?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So you vocalize the prayers for visitors yeah and so
?
So what do they do?
Do they write it out for you,or yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
for instance, if you want to keeping of evil spirits,
just like writing the situation.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
For instance, yeah, I just like vocalizing to have
you ever had any unusual prayersor requests.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, sometimes even people cannot identify their
feeling.
Yes, so I just feel how, what'sthe problem of this visitor?
And then I just say, tovocalize kami.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Okay, so I didn't know about that, and so would
that be on a particular day?
No, every day.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Any day, yeah, shrines open every day?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, shrines open every day.
Or maybe I'll come to yourshrine and offer you a prayer to
vocalize for me.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, let me do that.
Yeah, my role is like actuallyShinto priests describe having
the role to Nakatorimochi.
It's like connecting visitorsand kami.
This is my role.
We are the how can I say maincharacter.
We are not main character, wejust connect visitor with kami.
(28:22):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I like that idea, and I mean Shinto is something I
don't know much about.
I've done some study and themore I study it the more I'm
interested.
Yeah, and so when I was doingresearch for this interview, I
did come across Jomei Seijoku,which is Yoji Jukugo.
(28:47):
So it's a four-character wordand I love yoji jukugo, these
four characters that conveyideas and have a general meaning
.
So it's a bit hard to explain,but imagine four kanji
characters.
So jō means purity, mei meansbrightness or clarity.
(29:08):
So 浄 means purity, 明 meansbrightness or clarity, 清 means
correctness, and then 直 or 直,honesty.
So is this a word you know well?
Obviously you know well.
What does it convey in Shinto?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So 浄, 明, 清直 in Shinto , so 浄名正直.
So actually the highestposition at Shinto place is
described 浄界.
We use the word 浄, so the mostimportant word is 浄, so in other
words, purity in English.
Right?
So let me explain about purityin Shinto.
(29:49):
And actually purity representsboth not just physical but
spiritual cleanness.
So I like the Western idea ofsin, which is often seen as a
moral failure, which is oftenseen as a moral failure.
But impurity in Shinto is justa temporary state, so it can be
(30:15):
cleaned through purificationritual.
So impurity can arise fromeveryday experience, like
negative emotions such as angerand sadness.
So it's inevitable to avoidthese temporary impurities,
because temporary.
(30:36):
So we need to do purificationlike day by day.
And one of the commonpurification ritual at Shinto
shrine is temizu.
Before visiting main shrine, weneed to clean our body and mind
.
So wash your hands and rinseyour mouth before approaching
(31:01):
the kami.
It's like this act symbolizesremoving temporary impurities
and preview the mind and bodyfor a sacred experience.
And another example is misogi.
Do you know this?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
word?
I do know this word.
Yeah, I'm trying to remember,please.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
This is also an important concept in Shinto, so
it's like individual cleanthemselves by standing under
water for a river.
Actually, we have a training toget into the river and pray in
order to purify our body andmind, or a prayer in order to
(31:47):
purify our body and mind, andit's a huge influence on
Japanese culture.
Actually, and maybe most ofJapanese people do bathing,
taking baths.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Bathing culture yes.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah Well, I stayed in London.
There's no bath, so I'm justtaking a shower, but in Japan
it's very natural to take a bus,maybe at night or in the
morning.
This is not just like wash yourbody, but also clean your mind,
(32:27):
like reflecting about whathappened today or removing the
temporary impurities, and torefresh our body and mind and to
start the new day.
So this is kind of purificationin Japanese people.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
So both a physical and mental and spiritual
approach.
Yeah, and yeah, I mean, bathingculture is very important and
significant in Japan.
Even when I visit my in-lawsyeah, my in-laws.
This happened last time.
I was there for like half anhour.
(33:08):
My father-in-law was likeFuruhaeru, nick, you want a bath
?
And it's like five o'clock inthe afternoon.
I'm like no, I'm just here tosay hello.
So maybe he saw many impurities.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I don't know, I don't think so.
It's like communication.
That was a good communication,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So it was so funny.
We're having tea and oh, nickfuruharu.
So yeah, the bathing culturetakes getting used to as well,
because Australia we generallyjust have showers and we just
see it as you know, justcleaning ourselves, and then if
we do have a bath, it's morelike a relaxation and you know,
long, hot bath.
(33:58):
But yeah, japanese do thisevery day.
I know my Japanese friends inMelbourne miss it Like oh, I
feel like a furo like furohairitai.
So I guess the idea of purity isalso conveyed with your
clothing and the colour white.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
This is white, so white symbolises purity and even
, is it shide, the paperstreamers you see Symbolizes
thunder.
Yes, yeah, so that'srepresenting thunder.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I mean lightning.
Lightning, yes, because we need, in order to do agriculture, we
need the breathing of rain,right, yes?
So that's why we're justoffering prayer to kami.
So thunder and cloud, and alsorain, shimenawa Nice.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, so every aspect of Shinto has a deep meaning or
attachment to nature, I thinkhas a deep meaning or attachment
to nature.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I think the reason why I think we need to be in the
state of mind purity is becauseconnecting with kami, I think
you know.
Actually, if you visit Shintoshrine, you will be able to find
the mirror.
Have you ever seen mirrorinside the main shrine?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Ah, I think I've heard about this To reflect yes,
that's right, your mind.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
If you see it's like clouded, your mind is also
clouded.
It's like a reflection ofpeople's minds.
Your mind is also not beingpurity, oh wow.
So, it's like the effect ofpeople's mind.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
So, as a priest, I guess you're expected to have
purity, a pure mind in your role.
So yeah, these impurities offrustration, anger, resentment,
hate, most people experience.
Some people experience oftenevery day, for many reasons, and
(36:20):
then other people don't I meannot that often, and they have
control of their emotions.
So, as a priest, how often doyou get angry?
Not very often, because youlook very calm and peaceful and
(36:41):
peace-loving person.
Yeah, do you ever get?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
angry, yeah, sometimes.
Do you ever get angry?
Yeah, sometimes it's not easyto control my emotions.
Sometimes Maybe it's not somuch compared with business I
guess I have many businessfriends from my university.
(37:07):
I don't feel not's not sostressful.
But actually it's verydifficult to manage Shinto
shrine because we need to unifylocal people, for instance, to
conduct like festival, forinstance, and we need to change
to preserve tradition.
(37:27):
In my case, this is my role.
I think in need to change topreserve tradition.
In my case, this is my role.
I think, in order to change, wehave to convince local people.
Let me do this festival right.
But, the reason why I cancontrol my emotion is because
maybe I receive heritage,tradition and culture.
(37:50):
It's like more than 1,000 years.
So I feel like I have aresponsibility to passing this
tradition to next generation.
So that's why I don't feeleasily angry to something, I
(38:12):
think.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, I think it's an important role.
This role you have to maintainJapan's unique culture and
religion, but at the same timeyou are faced with dynamic
change.
That's it's happening so fastnow.
Technology is really changingour life and the kind of the
(38:36):
irony is, I think Japanesethemselves seem to be losing
interest in their own cultureand foreigners a lot of
foreigners are very interestedin Japanese culture as a
generalisation, so it must be attimes frustrating for you to.
How do I get local peopleinvolved in this?
(38:59):
Matsuri?
that's probably had severalhundred-year history even a
thousand-year history and you'retrying to maintain that.
Hundred year history, uh yeah,even thousand year history,
you're trying to maintain that.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
So, with that in mind , should we talk about your
shrine, okay, yeah, so tell meabout your shrine and who's
enshrined there, if someone is,or what cam is enshrined there.
So hattori tenjin shrine islocated in osaka, japan, and
(39:38):
it's known as a food shrine andand has.
This shrine is linked to hatataKuran, an ancient family of
skilled textile workers who justcame from maybe Korea, I think
and just settled in Osaka and in.
(40:02):
We cannot easily, we cannot saythe exact date of the Shinto
shrine.
And in 1901, sugawara Michizane,who was a scholar and
politician and he just,unfortunately, he was exiled
(40:26):
from Kyoto to Fukuoka.
He just stopped at this placeon his way and he, due to the
leg ailment, disease, he couldno longer walk, and he offer
(40:47):
prayer at the shrine of medicine, the name of Sukuna
Hikonanomikoto, the deity ofmedicine, okay, and he offer
prayer and his leg graduallyrecovered and allowing him to
continue his journey safely toarrive at Fukuoka.
And that's why Hato TenjinShrine has been known as a
(41:12):
sacred place, as a foot shrine,so it's been more than 1,000
years.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I see.
Well, I should go, because 20years ago I had an operation on
my leg, yes, and some of themuscles on my leg were removed
my adductor muscles, and it'snot.
It's not a big problem, but myright leg probably needs some
(41:39):
help.
So I will.
I should come to your shrineand say a prayer and maybe that
will help my leg.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yeah, let me offer a prayer for you to the deity of
Kami.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Thank you.
So the Kami enshrined there isa Kami of the foot, or what kind
of Kami is enshrined there?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Actually so, as I said before, the Sukuna Hikona
no Mikoto, the deity of medicine, and also Sugara Michizane.
So there are two deities inshrine, but in order to how can
I say, express easily, or inorder to connect people, we say
(42:27):
not, we people say good, wepeople say Kutsu.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Shrine, kutsu Shrine.
Okay, so it has the cameo oftreatment, not medicine.
Medicine, yeah, yes.
And what's the other one, theactual Sugara Michizane?
Who was that person whotraveled through?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
He is famous as the learning, like the many student
visit of a peer.
That's the examination.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So because learning, learning, okay, so health and
learning, medicine and sort ofnatural medicine and learning.
I see Well, I should definitelygo, because I can always learn
more.
So let's talk about your roleat Hattori Tenjingu.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, actually, my position is under my father.
My father is a chief priest.
My position is like in Japanesenegi it's like deputy chief
priest, I think, and myresponsibility is preserving the
Shinto tradition and alsoconducting rituals, educating
(43:41):
visitors about Shinto values andin order to pass the culture to
the next generation.
I also lead a new initiativeand connect our shrine histories
, focusing on foot health, withmodern concerns, with modern
(44:06):
concerns so, such as I justcreated foot festival and
hikyaku marathon festivals.
Oh, wow, yeah so it's like Ithink Shinto is based on
well-being in modern age, soeverything is connected to
(44:26):
well-being age, so everything isconnected to well-being.
So my role is to use theculture of food shrine to adapt
to modern age.
So that's why I just createdFood Festival and Hikakumar
Festival.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
So that's an interesting challenge.
How do you try to attract youngpeople to your shrine Through
social media, or is it moretrying to attract local people?
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Actually, in order to attract runners, I just
coincidentally found a reallyfamous runner who was very
interested in Shinto and we justgathered together to create a
food festival, and then he justdecided to become a Shinto
(45:24):
priest.
Oh wow, yes, just got thelicense of Shinto priest to know
more about Shinto priest.
Oh wow, yes, just got thelicense of Shinto priest to know
more about Shinto.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah, so he has a really influence on Rangnus and
I have a background of likehistory of Shinto, so we get
together to create a new cultureto adapt to younger people.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Sounds exciting.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
So a bit of a celebrity helps when someone is
famous, that's right, yeah,there used to be a famous TV
show, jonas Tyreek, maybe if yousearch it's a very, very famous
TV show in Japan there you go,so that always helps to have
(46:14):
someone well-known.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Okay, so actually, last November I did a retreat, I
was a host of a retreat, and wedid go to a Shinto shrine and I
was trying to explain, oh, at ashrine there are these things
you can purchase, like ema or aomamori or mikuji.
(46:40):
And the ema is a reallyinteresting idea, so that little
wooden board you can buy andthen you write a, I guess, a
prayer or a wish, yeah, and thenyou, you hang it somewhere,
either on a tree or somedesignated rack, and I was
(47:02):
astounded that a wiser calledemma and it has a relationship
to horse, yes, to a horse soyeah, would you like to touch on
the origin of the name emmaokay, japanese people used to
offer forces to the shrine, but,as you know, it's impossible
(47:26):
because everyone cannot ownforces, right?
Speaker 1 (47:30):
So, and some people write the picture of forces as a
drawing, and then just culturehas been changing and now we use
wooden plates to write theirwishes.
Now we use a wooden plate towrite their wishes, and I think
(47:51):
writing wishes maybe it's veryimportant custom for Japanese
people.
I think I don't know why, butif you write your wishes, you
feel like your prayer is comingtrue, by blessing, by coming.
This is one of the Japanese, Ithink, custom.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
It's a good custom and some of my retreat
participants really enjoyed theidea.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
And also omikuji is also very interesting.
I think 80% of Japanese peoplewho visit Shinto Shrine they
draw omikuji Even though theydon't receive omamori.
They are very how can I say?
Addicted to omikuji.
Sometimes I can find people whodraw twice or three times
(48:47):
omikuji.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
So omikuji is like a fortune reading and they draw it
, they pick one from, I guess, abox and it has everything from
great happiness to bad luck.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Actually, its origin is very different, you know.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah.
I didn't know people could beaddicted.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Actually, the origin of omikuji is very different
from contemporary way of drawingfortune-telling paper.
We used to decide thefortune-telling paper.
We used to decide the fortunedirection by using the turtle's
body.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Turtle's body.
Wow yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Using the fire, putting on the fire, and then
you can putting on the fire andthen you can the maybe direction
, and this is a fortunedirection.
This is the original omikujiactually.
So we use our natural energy todecide which direction, which
(50:01):
we can say.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
This is like fortune coming right so this is based on
the turtles.
How can I say in English Ashell, shell, ah yeah, the
design of the shell or the shapeof the shell.
Yes, Fascinating, and sosomething fascinating I saw in
(50:25):
Inuyama.
I was at a shrine there and Isaw a Inuyama.
I was at a shrine there and Isaw a Shinto priest, I think.
Bless a new car, and so he sortof had this it almost looked
like a bonbon on a stick and hesort of walked down the stairs
and there was this young couplewith a baby and I actually spoke
(50:49):
to a Japanese couple next to mesaying, oh, what's going on?
And I said, uh, it looks likethey've got a new car, and so
they opened every door and thebonnets and the boots and yeah,
so he I think it's called aharaigushi, a wand with lots of
shide yeah.
(51:10):
And he sort of waved it intoeach opening, maybe chanting
something yes, so yeah, what isthat?
Is that?
Obviously to protect the carand the people?
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah, this is a prayer of protecting the car,
but in the case of, like,offering a safety drive to the
main shrine, but afterconducting the prayer at the
main shrine, we just move to thecar and doing the purification
ritual.
So maybe that Shinto priestsays purification prayer to the
(51:48):
car.
Four directions, okay, so north, east, west, south, because we
believe that even the car has aspirit.
Yeah, they have a spirit energy.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
I see, and have you ever done that?
Have you ever purified a car?
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah, Many times it's very natural.
So if you buy the car, they beseen to shine and to receive the
prayer of safety drive.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
And the streamers who folds?
Is that something you do orstaff do?
They fold the shinde.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Shinto priest.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
Shinto priest.
Yeah, so you spend quite a bitof time folding white paper.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yeah, but it's very natural, so it does spend so
much time to create haraigushi.
Yes, I see.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
So, yeah, your folding skills would be good.
Yeah, so we touched on thisearlier, the idea of matsuri
festivals, and that's a big partof Shinto.
Yes, and it's commonly saidthat you always, or you will
always, find a festivalsomewhere in Japan.
So there seems to be manyfestivals.
(53:15):
Is this a significant part ofJapanese culture, because
Japanese used to have manyvillages?
Speaker 1 (53:25):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Is that one of the reasons?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah, that's right, in order to unify the community,
and actually there are 80,000Shinto shrines all over Japan.
It's more than a conveniencestore, because convenience
stores may be around 58,000maybe I think.
So, as you said before, yeah,there are many, actually
(53:51):
countryside.
You can find many Shintoshrines.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, because of nature, so I guess many would be
abandoned because of Japan'sshrinking population.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, sometimes merged.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, they merge towns to one shrine.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Actually it's a good way to merge.
So some of the Shinto priestsjust manage like 20 or 30 Shinto
shrines.
So you don't need to move thatShinto shrine to a different
place, because it's verymeaningful to be that Shinto
shrines existed in that place,you know, because there's a
(54:34):
history.
So it's not good to just moveto a different place due to the
human beings sharing population.
But it's really burdened on oneShinto priest.
You know it's a very hard jobto manage 20 on one Shinto
priest.
You know it's a very hard jobto manage 20 or 30 Shinto
shrines by only one Shintopriest.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, I can't imagine it must be a struggle, because
purity, yeah, they have to bemaintained and cleaned.
So I guess one thing we haven'ttalked about is one way to
distinguish a temple and ashrine is the tori, sort of that
(55:17):
unique gate with two pillarsand the curving top, and that
can be made from wood, stone,even, um, metal or some type of.
And one should always bowbefore the tori when they go
(55:39):
through, and also learnt, youshould always walk on one side,
never in the middle, becausethat's where the kami is, that
where the kami pass through.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, kami pass yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
So one thing I like about Shinto is when you do
visit a shrine, the structuremakes you present, so you're
focused.
Because you have to bow beforeyou go through the gate, because
you're entering, I guess, theworld of the Kemi, then you have
to be careful how you walk.
(56:15):
I'm walking on a side and thenyou purify, you wash your hands
and mouth and then, yes, youhave to clap and bow, and then
it's usually there is a strongsense of nature, because there's
usually trees or yeah, so itgives you, like this moment to
(56:36):
pause during the day and it'slike you're stepping into a
different world for a fewminutes.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, that's right.
Tori symbolizes a boundarybetween sacred area and human
beings area, so it's likegetting into the different world
.
So sometimes I feel likeJapanese people unconsciously
(57:07):
know how to build that kind ofspaces using natural power.
Even if you visit Shinto Shrinein the other area, maybe you
feel different things comparedwith outside Shinto Shrine,
(57:27):
because maybe there's somethingessence including inside Shinto
shrine.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
I think so.
I was in Shibuya on one of mylast trips and there was even
this very small Shinto shrine,sort of just around the corner
from a busy street, and then,once you walk through, yeah, you
have this sense of history andthings seem quieter and you then
(57:56):
, you know, you pull out a coin,maybe a Goyen usually, and,
yeah, you do this custom andyour focus is on just being
there, and then you can have alook at the design of the shrine
or the, I guess, the toddy orother elements.
(58:19):
So it does take you away, ittakes your mind away, your body
away, and then, yeah, when youleave, you're still thinking
about walking on the side andthen, hopefully, most people
turn around and and bow, uh,before they leave.
So I think it infuses orreminds people to be grateful as
(58:39):
well.
Like, generally, we, we have alot to be grateful for where
you're from, where I'm from verylucky to be born in these
countries.
So this practice, yeah, it wassort of confusing and I never
really understood it, but as Ibegin to understand it, it's
like really fascinating and it'ssomething I hope to share with
(59:04):
my audience and something I hopepeople who are listening to
this go and, do you know, visita shrine, or maybe even yours if
they're visiting Osaka, yeah,so yeah, I had that question.
Would you say Shinto iscustom-based, belief-based, or
(59:25):
is it both custom andbelief-based for Japanese?
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Maybe.
Yeah, basically custom-based,but to some extent I can say
belief-based.
So have you ever heard the word?
Speaker 2 (59:46):
No, but someone's looking at you.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
Not someone.
The sun is watching you, overyou, so sun symbolizes the kami
of sun.
Maybe you know AmaterasuOmikami is an ancestor of the
emperor, so it's an enshrinedkami at isejingu, and
(01:00:10):
unconscious, necessarily.
Maybe japanese people feel thatkind of like.
So sun is watching you.
There's nobody teaching, evenat school, but we feel, oh it,
oh, maybe Kami is watching you,yeah, so we cannot do bad
(01:00:36):
behavior.
Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
I like it.
Yeah, that's a good way to goabout your day-to-day thinking,
like positive encouragement andit's I mean, mean, the sun is
very important to japaneseculture.
It's part of the name um,you're on your flag.
Yeah, even when I went to, Iwent to mount fuji and there was
(01:01:02):
this feeling of presence, likethe mountains, kind of watching
over me, or I feel a mountain.
And the weekend we went or thedays we went, the forecast was
terrible.
It was like, oh, it's going tobe lots of fog and so I thought,
oh, you know, I won't see MountFuji.
(01:01:23):
And then something happened andthe weather was perfect and the
view of Mount Fuji was amazingand it looked like it was
photoshopped.
It looked incredible.
I just couldn't believe howthat sort of iconic image of
Mount Fuji but yeah, this sortof sense of energy and even
(01:01:45):
someone I interviewed talkedabout like, oh, you can feel the
mountain when you're near it,so maybe suggesting there's
spirits or kami in the mountain.
Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
So this oneness with nature, be it the sun, a
mountain, a tree, a river, arock's quite thought-provoking,
yeah, and there's I guessthere's no fear kind of other
religions, you know, dependingon the religion if you do
(01:02:22):
something wrong, you could go tohell, yes, or you've sinned and
so you must be forgiven.
There's no sense of fear withshinto.
And then, when something badhappens like these disasters,
japanese seem to learnacceptance like can't control
(01:02:43):
what's happened.
All we can do now is controlwhat we do from now.
Yeah, so very powerful lifelessons.
Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
That's right.
We cannot change the nature.
We cannot change the worldeasily.
Human beings cannot control theworld nature.
So of course nature has twoaspects good and bad for human
beings.
But maybe Japanese people knowthat we cannot control nature,
(01:03:17):
so that's why focusing on hereand now, yes, and that's all we
really have is the here and now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Even our experience of the future is always here and
now.
Even our experience of thefuture is always here and now?
Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Yes, we only have the here and now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
So if people would like to visit you or visit your
website, you do have a websiteand you have pages in English,
so I'll link to your website inthe show notes and if people
Google your name, I thinkthere's a few videos of you
(01:03:56):
talking about Shintai.
Yeah, but do you have a finalmessage for our listeners?
Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, by listening to our conversation, I hope that
we are part of nature.
We feel we are part of nature,even though we live in a
different country, but we areinterconnected.
(01:04:29):
So this is my final messageThank you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Yes, so because we're interconnected, I'd like to
come and visit you.
Yes, please.
Hopefully that will be in June.
So, taishi, so wonderful totalk with you and thank you very
much for your time and sharingyour knowledge and wisdom with
me and our audience yeah, thankyou so much for giving a really
(01:04:59):
great opportunity to share myexperience as a shinto priest.
Yeah, my pleasure and I lookforward to seeing you soon in
person.
Looking forward to seeing yousoon.
I can say it's like kind of the essence of Shinto
Musubi.
Now, musubi refers to the powerto connect and bring things
together.
It's a working of, betweensomething and anything.
(00:21):
Right?
How can I say Everything in theuniverse?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Interconnects.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Ah, yeah, that's right.
Connective power.
So everything in the universe,so nature, people, objects and
even emotions, is interconnected.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Taishi Kato, a
licensed Shinto priest.
Taishi serves at the HatoriTenjingu Shrine in the bustling
city of Osaka, trying to strikea balance between preserving
(01:15):
tradition while also innovatingand looking beyond it.
Having studied in London andlectured on Shinto to an
international audience, Tashi ison a mission to spread the
wisdom of Shinto to the world,believing that underneath its
uniquely Japanese form, it isabundant with universal insights
(01:37):
that we would all benefit fromlearning.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I could call you Kanushi, or Icould call you Negi-san, but
maybe I'll call you Taishibecause you already feel like a
friend.
So thank you.
Thank you for joining me today,Taishi.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Thank you so much for giving me the great opportunity
to talk about Shinto.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
My pleasure, thank you.
So what is fascinating, tashi,is you are the 22nd generation
Shinto priest in your family, sothat's a lot of history.
So were you always destined tobe a Shinto priest?
Actually, no, no.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
To be honest, when I was a child, I really didn't
want to become a Shinto priest.
So, as a 22nd generation ofShinto priests in my family, my
heritage influenced me a lot.
Actually, even my motherencouraged me to explore more
(02:46):
different possibilities.
So she said that I didn't needto follow my family tradition.
You can free to choose yourpath.
But the turning point cameduring my university.
Actually, I studied businesscommerce at my ko university and
(03:08):
most of my friends just likesearching for get carry, plus I
also hunting for a job at thattime.
But at that time I just found abook about my grandfather.
But my grandfather passed awaywhen I was a junior high school
student and, to be honest, Ididn't know well about my
(03:32):
grandfather.
My grandfather is so I'm soafraid of him.
He's so how can I say too, toostrong to me and he has a?
Maybe he didn't show me thelike his personality.
How can I say he is alwaysbeing a shinto priest?
(03:54):
So for me it's not likegrandfather.
But I just found a book about mygrandfather and actually he
became a chief priest at the ageof 22.
So 22 years old, wow, chiefpriest.
Yeah, chief priest, and at thattime I also, I was 22 years old
(04:18):
and he actually rebuilt atotally ruined Shinto shrine
together with local people.
Just maybe it has been justthree years.
He rebuilt the Shinto shrine,oh wow, and how can I say?
(04:38):
His dedication and hisachievements at a really such a
young age moved me a lot.
I didn't know well about mygrandfather, but I just felt a
connection with him and I justdecided to follow his footsteps.
(05:04):
And I just decided to followhis footsteps and I just decided
to preserve and pass thistradition to future generations.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I understand.
So he really dedicated his lifeto preserving Shintoism and
rebuilding this shrine for thecommunity.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
I guess he took his role of a kanushi very seriously
.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, actually, he was in the position of top of
manager in Osaka when he wasmaybe 50 years old, so it's so
young.
He's kind of like a politician.
I see, maybe mygreat-grandfather is also Shinto
(06:06):
priest, but he is not Shintopriest at Hattori Tenshingu
shrine.
This is mine and my great-uncle.
He's still living this world,so he was a chief priest at
Ikuta shrine in hyogo prefecture.
(06:28):
This is one of the big shintoshrine in kansai area and maybe,
compared with ikuta shrine,hatori tenshin shrine is not so
big.
And how can I say mygrandfather is so makizug is, so
I don't know how to say it, hedoesn't like to lose, yes, and
(06:49):
also he wants to change theshrine's world.
How can I say no matter whatposition, it's equal right.
So it doesn't matter whatShinto shrines you are.
So he changed this kind of likeconsciousness and he try hard
to be like, act like politician.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I see, yes, that's interesting His shrine to be
more recognized.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.
So very dedicated to his roleof being a Shinto priest, but
also to establishing your shrine, hatori Tenjingu.
(07:36):
Well, there we go.
So that served as someinspiration for you.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, it inspired me even now.
So sometimes I thought that ifmy grandfather is here, how does
he how can I say do in thisworld?
So it's a really good way of myhow can I say?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Preserving his memory .
Yeah, receiving his button,continuing his work.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I'm sure he'd be very proud of you.
So we should talk about Shintoas a religion.
And it is fascinating.
And I do remember the day, Ithink, I was living in Japan and
I first discovered, oh, japanhas two religions, how unusual
(08:31):
and how can they be harmonious?
But now I think I understand.
But with Shinto it'sinteresting there's no founder,
no holy scriptures and even noconcept of conversion, so you
don't become a Shintoist, forexample.
(08:51):
Yeah, that's right.
So it makes it very unique as areligion.
But I imagine it's hard toexplain.
And then the word Shinto isoften translated to you know,
way of the gods.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
But also they're not really gods.
I've also seen it's translatedas the kami way, so that might
be more appropriate.
So how do you describeShintoism or Shinto, and what
are kami and how are theydifferent from gods?
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, it's always difficult to explain Shinto.
Even, as you know, japanesepeople don't know about the word
Shinto, even though they visitShinto shrine.
Yeah, and it's totallydifferent from the concept of
religion in Western countries.
And Shinto is a way of life inharmony with kami.
(09:48):
It's based on the idea thathuman beings are part of nature,
but it doesn't center on humanbeings.
It's a difference.
So I think it's not a good wayto say Shintoism.
I think it's a more proper wayto say Shintoism.
I think it's a more proper wayto describe Shinto.
Okay, and Shinto and Japan islike a rich in nature and with
(10:15):
about 70% of the land areacovered by mountains and forest,
but on the other hand, thecountry is also like.
There are many natural disasterhappen, such as earthquake,
typhoon, tsunami.
Japanese people appreciate theblessing of nature.
On the other hand, they livetogether with nature in all of
(10:40):
its harshness.
So it's inevitable to likeavoid the harshness of nature.
We cannot control nature's powerand in ancient Japan, people
(11:01):
depended on nature foragriculture and fishing, and
also they feared naturaldisasters.
So they believed that thesenatural forces are the working
of kami.
Like all powerful gods werecreators of the universe, were
(11:25):
more like sacred spirits presentin nature, such as mountains,
rivers, trees, even the wind andsand, and actually some kami
are also historical figures.
Maybe later we are talkingabout this is because this is
actually Hattori Tenjingushrines are kami of historical
figures.
Maybe later we are talkingabout this is because this is
actually Hattori Tenjingushrines are coming up like
(11:48):
historical figures.
So they made a big, greatcontribution to society.
So that's why so thesehistorical figures is also
enshrined at Shinto shrines, wow, and yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I didn't know people could be enshrined and then
become referred to as kamiHointan's emperor, have you ever
been to Meijin Shrine?
I have.
Yeah, oh, that's right.
Yes, that's true, that wasdesigned or created for him, but
(12:26):
I thought I didn't realize hewas also kami.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, yeah, mostly Japanese people don't know well
about this.
Is a kami of this Shinto shrine.
Maybe they just visit.
They can't identify.
Yeah, what is a shrine kami?
This is a very interestingpoint.
Yeah, visit, they cannotidentify what is an enshrined
kami.
This is a very interestingpoint.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, I mean, one of my questions, which we'll
probably talk about later, wasoh, is it more custom than
belief?
And my perception is, shinto ismore custom-based and the sense
of of, do you really believethere's a kami in everything?
I've never really heardJapanese talk about, but when
(13:12):
anyone in my social network is aChristian or if they're Muslim,
they really believe in this onepowerful God and, yeah, they
dedicate a lot of time maybe toprayer, to going to church.
So it's very interesting thedifference.
(13:34):
So I guess in Western religionsyou have faith, you have to
have faith in the idea of a God.
Where Shinto it seems to be, Iguess the perception is, oh,
it's so strongly connected tonature, that's, I don't know.
Maybe belief for me would beeasier.
(13:54):
It's like, oh, okay, well, wecome from nature, we are nature.
Nature teaches us so much.
It has this abundance.
We survive or we're allowed tolive because of nature, but also
, yeah, disasters can happen.
So, and I love the idea thatthere is a kami, some sort of
(14:18):
spiritual energy, in everything,because I think it encourages
you to respect it, to appreciatewhat you have.
And Japanese as a culture, theyseem to have far more respect
and appreciation for everythingthan most other cultures, so I
shouldn't push you.
(14:38):
But if we were to define Kami,would it be something like
spiritual energy?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yeah, spiritual energy, yeah, spiritual energy.
Sometimes they describe lifeforce.
So life force yeah, butspiritual energy is a it's great
expression, I think, yeah, okay.
Or somebody it is also.
I think, yeah, okay.
Or sometimes deities also,because, as you know, there are
(15:10):
many types of kami in Japan, soit's not easy to define one word
.
Yes, so historical figures alsois enshrined, and also nature,
or even maybe sometimes someobject can be kami.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It's sort of vague, but it's still relatable,
because you could think well,there is a stone, there is a
tree, you can feel energy fromnature.
Yeah, Actually do you know?
There's no famous shinto priestin the history.
(15:52):
There's no famous shinto priest?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
yes, there's.
There are no shinto priest,famous shinto priest in the
history.
I think that's a hugedifference from the another
religion.
That's a huge difference fromanother religion because there
is no how can I say definitionof Shinto.
It's not the languagecommunication, it's more focused
on ritual communication.
(16:14):
So we cannot easily describe inlanguage.
That's a really important point.
To have a long history, to havelike long history, to have this
history, this culture, to thenext generation.
This is a Japanese wisdom, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yes, and it's very appealing because it's a very
different approach, and Ilearned from, for example, ken
Moggi, who's been a guest onthis podcast, the idea of
yaoyorozu no kami.
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's right, that'scorrect, which translates to
(16:54):
eight million gods.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
So could you touch on this?
Maybe this concept has been ahuge influence on Japanese
culture.
Maybe most of Japanese peopleuse this concept to explain a
lot of things in Japan.
I think, and maybe our reasonfor kami represents the belief
that kami exists everywhere.
(17:22):
So the number 8 million is notliteral but just symbolic, so
expressing the diverse presenceof kami.
So even how can I say the kamihas been increasing?
We cannot, you know, we caneasily.
(17:44):
How can I fix, oh, this is 8million, kami has been
increasing.
We cannot easily fix this is 8million kami.
It's always increasing, so it'snot easy to fix this kami
notion.
And so Shinto embraces the idea.
So multiple kami, co ko exist,each have their unique roles in
(18:10):
maintaining their balance in theworld.
So, for instance, there aremany kami of harvest, running
and rain and forest, and, ofcourse, food and protect
(18:31):
specific places.
And this concept allows forlike flexible and inclusive way
of thinking.
So where, like, even differenttradition can coexist in harmony
.
And, as you know, in Japan,buddhism and Shinto used to be
(18:53):
like syncretism, so even nowJapanese people cannot identify
which is temple, which is Shintoshrine.
So, and also Shinto, accepted,accepted art of religion, which
is Shinto shrine.
So, and also Shinto, how can Isay accepted art of religion,
yes, and to evolve in adifferent way.
(19:14):
So, because of the concept ofYawaru, no Kami, I think.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
It is interesting they use the number eight
because in Roman numerals it'salso the symbol of infinity,
because it's a closed yeah, it'slike a closed circuit.
And then the kanji for eightwidens.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Suggesting that what you just said.
The number of kami is probablyforever increasing.
And I think when you first hearthis as a foreigner it's like
very strange, like oh, how canthere be a God in everything?
But then of course it's not aGod, and then Japanese can't
(19:59):
explain it.
So that's another interestingthing.
But the customs involve oftenweekly or monthly behaviour.
There's a matsuri, or peoplejust go to the shrine because
they feel like going, or theyhave all these children's
festivals.
So it's very much part of theirculture.
Yet, as you keep saying, it'svery hard for them to explain
(20:23):
what it is, because I guess theyjust grow up with the religion.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
This concept.
As I said before, this conceptis very huge influence on
Japanese culture, withoutconsciousness.
For instance, we don't have thenotion of individual in Japan
and human being has a differentpersonality depending on the
(20:48):
environment.
How can I say, for instance, wehave a maybe different nickname
depending on the situation?
For me, when I stay Shintoshrine, call me as like Shinto
priest, or like Negi-san, but Ialso work at a kindergarten.
(21:10):
Actually, this is also myfamily heritage, and so children
call me as like sensei, teacher, and also I have a family.
So, depending on theenvironment, we have a different
personality and everything ischanging.
(21:32):
Everything is interactive,interconnected in this world, so
we cannot easily fix ourpersonality.
So this is maybe the concept ofYawaro's no kami also, I think.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It is interesting.
We do have multiple rolesFather, friend, in your case,
priest, teacher.
I've been a teacher, aconsultant, and now I guess I'm
almost an educator of Ikigai.
But you're right, I think inthe West there is this strong
(22:12):
sense of self and we valueindividualism, we pride
ourselves on being different andunique.
But in Japan it's very muchcollective harmony with others,
and I guess that goes back tothis idea of harmony with nature
and understanding.
(22:33):
You're part of a biggercollective, so it makes Japanese
this is a general ideaobviously more selfless.
But perhaps in the West we're abit more self-oriented,
self-focused.
Yeah, I do find going to Japanvery comfortable because of
(22:56):
these reasons.
Oh, I see, I seem to.
I don't know, just slip into theculture and think, oh, this is
nice, I don't know.
Just slip into the culture andthink, oh, this is nice, I don't
have to worry about too manythings.
I see, and there's also a lotof structure to Japan.
Kimari monk set expressions andbehaviour that makes it very
(23:19):
easy to understand what to do.
So, yeah, it's interesting.
I guess it's based on differentvalues.
So we should touch on the corevalues, shinto, which include
these ideas of harmony withnature, purity and cleanliness
and reverence for ancestors.
So would you like to talk onthese values?
(23:42):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Habiburhat Musububi.
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
this word musubi?
Is that musubi to?
Speaker 1 (23:51):
time, yeah, yeah yeah and also it's the expression of
the kami.
Actually, okay, I can say it'slike kind of the essence of
Shinto Musubi.
Now, musubi refers to the powerto connect and bring things
(24:11):
together.
It's a working of, betweensomething and anything.
Right?
How can I say Everything in theuniverse?
Interconnects oh yeah, that'sright.
Connective power, so everythingin the universe, so nature,
(24:32):
people, objects and evenemotions, is interconnected.
This belief is reflected inlike traditional customs such as
bow in ritual Bowing.
As a formal greeting right.
(24:52):
Yes, and actually during theritual at Shinto shrine there's
a time to offer prayer in aharmonious way.
So two bow, two claps and a bowand there is a representative
(25:15):
person there just offeringprayer.
They just in the same way tooffer prayer.
This is a symbol of harmony inthe ritual of Shinto shrine.
So we don't need to describeharmony in language, just to do
(25:36):
the ritual.
Instead of languagecommunication, we just do the
ritual communication.
You know that feels harmonywith everything.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
That is an interesting point, because if we
go to like, christians mightsing hymns or maybe Muslims
recite the Koran yeah, but inShinto you visit and clap your
hands twice and bow twice andthen you clap again.
(26:12):
Yeah, is that?
Speaker 1 (26:13):
correct.
Yes, two bows, two claps andone bow.
One bow, but it depends on theShinto shrine.
Some Shinto shrines aredifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And then, maybe silently, you would say a prayer
yes, just in your mind.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, but in my case I'm offered the Norito this
prayer I just sang to Kami Likeaddress name.
What's his prayer?
Okay?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So you vocalize the prayers for visitors yeah and so
?
So what do they do?
Do they write it out for you,or yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
for instance, if you want to keeping of evil spirits,
just like writing the situation.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
For instance, yeah, I just like vocalizing to have
you ever had any unusual prayersor requests.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, sometimes even people cannot identify their
feeling.
Yes, so I just feel how, what'sthe problem of this visitor?
And then I just say, tovocalize kami.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Okay, so I didn't know about that, and so would
that be on a particular day?
No, every day.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Any day, yeah, shrines open every day?
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, shrines open every day.
Or maybe I'll come to yourshrine and offer you a prayer to
vocalize for me.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Yeah, let me do that.
Yeah, my role is like actuallyShinto priests describe having
the role to Nakatorimochi.
It's like connecting visitorsand kami.
This is my role.
We are the how can I say maincharacter.
We are not main character, wejust connect visitor with kami.
(28:22):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I like that idea, and I mean Shinto is something I
don't know much about.
I've done some study and themore I study it the more I'm
interested.
Yeah, and so when I was doingresearch for this interview, I
did come across Jomei Seijoku,which is Yoji Jukugo.
(28:47):
So it's a four-character wordand I love yoji jukugo, these
four characters that conveyideas and have a general meaning
.
So it's a bit hard to explain,but imagine four kanji
characters.
So jō means purity, mei meansbrightness or clarity.
(29:08):
So 浄 means purity, 明 meansbrightness or clarity, 清 means
correctness, and then 直 or 直,honesty.
So is this a word you know well?
Obviously you know well.
What does it convey in Shinto?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
So 浄, 明, 清直 in Shinto , so 浄名正直.
So actually the highestposition at Shinto place is
described 浄界.
We use the word 浄, so the mostimportant word is 浄, so in other
words, purity in English.
Right?
So let me explain about purityin Shinto.
(29:49):
And actually purity representsboth not just physical but
spiritual cleanness.
So I like the Western idea ofsin, which is often seen as a
moral failure, which is oftenseen as a moral failure.
But impurity in Shinto is justa temporary state, so it can be
(30:15):
cleaned through purificationritual.
So impurity can arise fromeveryday experience, like
negative emotions such as angerand sadness.
So it's inevitable to avoidthese temporary impurities,
because temporary.
(30:36):
So we need to do purificationlike day by day.
And one of the commonpurification ritual at Shinto
shrine is temizu.
Before visiting main shrine, weneed to clean our body and mind
.
So wash your hands and rinseyour mouth before approaching
(31:01):
the kami.
It's like this act symbolizesremoving temporary impurities
and preview the mind and bodyfor a sacred experience.
And another example is misogi.
Do you know this?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
word?
I do know this word.
Yeah, I'm trying to remember,please.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
This is also an important concept in Shinto, so
it's like individual cleanthemselves by standing under
water for a river.
Actually, we have a training toget into the river and pray in
order to purify our body andmind, or a prayer in order to
(31:47):
purify our body and mind, andit's a huge influence on
Japanese culture.
Actually, and maybe most ofJapanese people do bathing,
taking baths.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Bathing culture yes.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah Well, I stayed in London.
There's no bath, so I'm justtaking a shower, but in Japan
it's very natural to take a bus,maybe at night or in the
morning.
This is not just like wash yourbody, but also clean your mind,
(32:27):
like reflecting about whathappened today or removing the
temporary impurities, and torefresh our body and mind and to
start the new day.
So this is kind of purificationin Japanese people.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
So both a physical and mental and spiritual
approach.
Yeah, and yeah, I mean, bathingculture is very important and
significant in Japan.
Even when I visit my in-lawsyeah, my in-laws.
This happened last time.
I was there for like half anhour.
(33:08):
My father-in-law was likeFuruhaeru, nick, you want a bath
?
And it's like five o'clock inthe afternoon.
I'm like no, I'm just here tosay hello.
So maybe he saw many impurities.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
I don't know, I don't think so.
It's like communication.
That was a good communication,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So it was so funny.
We're having tea and oh, nickfuruharu.
So yeah, the bathing culturetakes getting used to as well,
because Australia we generallyjust have showers and we just
see it as you know, justcleaning ourselves, and then if
we do have a bath, it's morelike a relaxation and you know,
long, hot bath.
(33:58):
But yeah, japanese do thisevery day.
I know my Japanese friends inMelbourne miss it Like oh, I
feel like a furo like furohairitai.
So I guess the idea of purity isalso conveyed with your
clothing and the colour white.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
This is white, so white symbolises purity and even
, is it shide, the paperstreamers you see Symbolizes
thunder.
Yes, yeah, so that'srepresenting thunder.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I mean lightning.
Lightning, yes, because we need, in order to do agriculture, we
need the breathing of rain,right, yes?
So that's why we're justoffering prayer to kami.
So thunder and cloud, and alsorain, shimenawa Nice.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, so every aspect of Shinto has a deep meaning or
attachment to nature, I thinkhas a deep meaning or attachment
to nature.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
I think the reason why I think we need to be in the
state of mind purity is becauseconnecting with kami, I think
you know.
Actually, if you visit Shintoshrine, you will be able to find
the mirror.
Have you ever seen mirrorinside the main shrine?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Ah, I think I've heard about this To reflect yes,
that's right, your mind.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
If you see it's like clouded, your mind is also
clouded.
It's like a reflection ofpeople's minds.
Your mind is also not beingpurity, oh wow.
So, it's like the effect ofpeople's mind.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
So, as a priest, I guess you're expected to have
purity, a pure mind in your role.
So yeah, these impurities offrustration, anger, resentment,
hate, most people experience.
Some people experience oftenevery day, for many reasons, and
(36:20):
then other people don't I meannot that often, and they have
control of their emotions.
So, as a priest, how often doyou get angry?
Not very often, because youlook very calm and peaceful and
(36:41):
peace-loving person.
Yeah, do you ever get?
Speaker 1 (36:44):
angry, yeah, sometimes.
Do you ever get angry?
Yeah, sometimes it's not easyto control my emotions.
Sometimes Maybe it's not somuch compared with business I
guess I have many businessfriends from my university.
(37:07):
I don't feel not's not sostressful.
But actually it's verydifficult to manage Shinto
shrine because we need to unifylocal people, for instance, to
conduct like festival, forinstance, and we need to change
to preserve tradition.
(37:27):
In my case, this is my role.
I think in need to change topreserve tradition.
In my case, this is my role.
I think, in order to change, wehave to convince local people.
Let me do this festival right.
But, the reason why I cancontrol my emotion is because
maybe I receive heritage,tradition and culture.
(37:50):
It's like more than 1,000 years.
So I feel like I have aresponsibility to passing this
tradition to next generation.
So that's why I don't feeleasily angry to something, I
(38:12):
think.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Yeah, I think it's an important role.
This role you have to maintainJapan's unique culture and
religion, but at the same timeyou are faced with dynamic
change.
That's it's happening so fastnow.
Technology is really changingour life and the kind of the
(38:36):
irony is, I think Japanesethemselves seem to be losing
interest in their own cultureand foreigners a lot of
foreigners are very interestedin Japanese culture as a
generalisation, so it must be attimes frustrating for you to.
How do I get local peopleinvolved in this?
(38:59):
Matsuri?
that's probably had severalhundred-year history even a
thousand-year history and you'retrying to maintain that.
Hundred year history, uh yeah,even thousand year history,
you're trying to maintain that.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
So, with that in mind , should we talk about your
shrine, okay, yeah, so tell meabout your shrine and who's
enshrined there, if someone is,or what cam is enshrined there.
So hattori tenjin shrine islocated in osaka, japan, and
(39:38):
it's known as a food shrine andand has.
This shrine is linked to hatataKuran, an ancient family of
skilled textile workers who justcame from maybe Korea, I think
and just settled in Osaka and in.
(40:02):
We cannot easily, we cannot saythe exact date of the Shinto
shrine.
And in 1901, sugawara Michizane,who was a scholar and
politician and he just,unfortunately, he was exiled
(40:26):
from Kyoto to Fukuoka.
He just stopped at this placeon his way and he, due to the
leg ailment, disease, he couldno longer walk, and he offer
(40:47):
prayer at the shrine of medicine, the name of Sukuna
Hikonanomikoto, the deity ofmedicine, okay, and he offer
prayer and his leg graduallyrecovered and allowing him to
continue his journey safely toarrive at Fukuoka.
And that's why Hato TenjinShrine has been known as a
(41:12):
sacred place, as a foot shrine,so it's been more than 1,000
years.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I see.
Well, I should go, because 20years ago I had an operation on
my leg, yes, and some of themuscles on my leg were removed
my adductor muscles, and it'snot.
It's not a big problem, but myright leg probably needs some
(41:39):
help.
So I will.
I should come to your shrineand say a prayer and maybe that
will help my leg.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yeah, let me offer a prayer for you to the deity of
Kami.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Thank you.
So the Kami enshrined there isa Kami of the foot, or what kind
of Kami is enshrined there?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Actually so, as I said before, the Sukuna Hikona
no Mikoto, the deity of medicine, and also Sugara Michizane.
So there are two deities inshrine, but in order to how can
I say, express easily, or inorder to connect people, we say
(42:27):
not, we people say good, wepeople say Kutsu.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Shrine, kutsu Shrine.
Okay, so it has the cameo oftreatment, not medicine.
Medicine, yeah, yes.
And what's the other one, theactual Sugara Michizane?
Who was that person whotraveled through?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
He is famous as the learning, like the many student
visit of a peer.
That's the examination.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
So because learning, learning, okay, so health and
learning, medicine and sort ofnatural medicine and learning.
I see Well, I should definitelygo, because I can always learn
more.
So let's talk about your roleat Hattori Tenjingu.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Yeah, actually, my position is under my father.
My father is a chief priest.
My position is like in Japanesenegi it's like deputy chief
priest, I think, and myresponsibility is preserving the
Shinto tradition and alsoconducting rituals, educating
(43:41):
visitors about Shinto values andin order to pass the culture to
the next generation.
I also lead a new initiativeand connect our shrine histories
, focusing on foot health, withmodern concerns, with modern
(44:06):
concerns so, such as I justcreated foot festival and
hikyaku marathon festivals.
Oh, wow, yeah so it's like Ithink Shinto is based on
well-being in modern age, soeverything is connected to
(44:26):
well-being age, so everything isconnected to well-being.
So my role is to use theculture of food shrine to adapt
to modern age.
So that's why I just createdFood Festival and Hikakumar
Festival.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
So that's an interesting challenge.
How do you try to attract youngpeople to your shrine Through
social media, or is it moretrying to attract local people?
Speaker 1 (44:58):
Actually, in order to attract runners, I just
coincidentally found a reallyfamous runner who was very
interested in Shinto and we justgathered together to create a
food festival, and then he justdecided to become a Shinto
(45:24):
priest.
Oh wow, yes, just got thelicense of Shinto priest to know
more about Shinto priest.
Oh wow, yes, just got thelicense of Shinto priest to know
more about Shinto.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah, so he has a really influence on Rangnus and
I have a background of likehistory of Shinto, so we get
together to create a new cultureto adapt to younger people.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Sounds exciting.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
So a bit of a celebrity helps when someone is
famous, that's right, yeah,there used to be a famous TV
show, jonas Tyreek, maybe if yousearch it's a very, very famous
TV show in Japan there you go,so that always helps to have
(46:14):
someone well-known.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Okay, so actually, last November I did a retreat, I
was a host of a retreat, and wedid go to a Shinto shrine and I
was trying to explain, oh, at ashrine there are these things
you can purchase, like ema or aomamori or mikuji.
(46:40):
And the ema is a reallyinteresting idea, so that little
wooden board you can buy andthen you write a, I guess, a
prayer or a wish, yeah, and thenyou, you hang it somewhere,
either on a tree or somedesignated rack, and I was
(47:02):
astounded that a wiser calledemma and it has a relationship
to horse, yes, to a horse soyeah, would you like to touch on
the origin of the name emmaokay, japanese people used to
offer forces to the shrine, but,as you know, it's impossible
(47:26):
because everyone cannot ownforces, right?
Speaker 1 (47:30):
So, and some people write the picture of forces as a
drawing, and then just culturehas been changing and now we use
wooden plates to write theirwishes.
Now we use a wooden plate towrite their wishes, and I think
(47:51):
writing wishes maybe it's veryimportant custom for Japanese
people.
I think I don't know why, butif you write your wishes, you
feel like your prayer is comingtrue, by blessing, by coming.
This is one of the Japanese, Ithink, custom.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
It's a good custom and some of my retreat
participants really enjoyed theidea.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
And also omikuji is also very interesting.
I think 80% of Japanese peoplewho visit Shinto Shrine they
draw omikuji Even though theydon't receive omamori.
They are very how can I say?
Addicted to omikuji.
Sometimes I can find people whodraw twice or three times
(48:47):
omikuji.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
So omikuji is like a fortune reading and they draw it
, they pick one from, I guess, abox and it has everything from
great happiness to bad luck.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Actually, its origin is very different, you know.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Yeah.
I didn't know people could beaddicted.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Actually, the origin of omikuji is very different
from contemporary way of drawingfortune-telling paper.
We used to decide thefortune-telling paper.
We used to decide the fortunedirection by using the turtle's
body.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Turtle's body.
Wow yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Using the fire, putting on the fire, and then
you can putting on the fire andthen you can the maybe direction
, and this is a fortunedirection.
This is the original omikujiactually.
So we use our natural energy todecide which direction, which
(50:01):
we can say.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
This is like fortune coming right so this is based on
the turtles.
How can I say in English Ashell, shell, ah yeah, the
design of the shell or the shapeof the shell.
Yes, Fascinating, and sosomething fascinating I saw in
(50:25):
Inuyama.
I was at a shrine there and Isaw a Inuyama.
I was at a shrine there and Isaw a Shinto priest, I think.
Bless a new car, and so he sortof had this it almost looked
like a bonbon on a stick and hesort of walked down the stairs
and there was this young couplewith a baby and I actually spoke
(50:49):
to a Japanese couple next to mesaying, oh, what's going on?
And I said, uh, it looks likethey've got a new car, and so
they opened every door and thebonnets and the boots and yeah,
so he I think it's called aharaigushi, a wand with lots of
shide yeah.
(51:10):
And he sort of waved it intoeach opening, maybe chanting
something yes, so yeah, what isthat?
Is that?
Obviously to protect the carand the people?
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah, this is a prayer of protecting the car,
but in the case of, like,offering a safety drive to the
main shrine, but afterconducting the prayer at the
main shrine, we just move to thecar and doing the purification
ritual.
So maybe that Shinto priestsays purification prayer to the
(51:48):
car.
Four directions, okay, so north, east, west, south, because we
believe that even the car has aspirit.
Yeah, they have a spirit energy.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
I see, and have you ever done that?
Have you ever purified a car?
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah, Many times it's very natural.
So if you buy the car, they beseen to shine and to receive the
prayer of safety drive.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
And the streamers who folds?
Is that something you do orstaff do?
They fold the shinde.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Shinto priest.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
Shinto priest.
Yeah, so you spend quite a bitof time folding white paper.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yeah, but it's very natural, so it does spend so
much time to create haraigushi.
Yes, I see.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
So, yeah, your folding skills would be good.
Yeah, so we touched on thisearlier, the idea of matsuri
festivals, and that's a big partof Shinto.
Yes, and it's commonly saidthat you always, or you will
always, find a festivalsomewhere in Japan.
So there seems to be manyfestivals.
(53:15):
Is this a significant part ofJapanese culture, because
Japanese used to have manyvillages?
Speaker 1 (53:25):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Is that one of the reasons?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah, that's right, in order to unify the community,
and actually there are 80,000Shinto shrines all over Japan.
It's more than a conveniencestore, because convenience
stores may be around 58,000maybe I think.
So, as you said before, yeah,there are many, actually
(53:51):
countryside.
You can find many Shintoshrines.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yeah, because of nature, so I guess many would be
abandoned because of Japan'sshrinking population.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, sometimes merged.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, they merge towns to one shrine.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Actually it's a good way to merge.
So some of the Shinto priestsjust manage like 20 or 30 Shinto
shrines.
So you don't need to move thatShinto shrine to a different
place, because it's verymeaningful to be that Shinto
shrines existed in that place,you know, because there's a
(54:34):
history.
So it's not good to just moveto a different place due to the
human beings sharing population.
But it's really burdened on oneShinto priest.
You know it's a very hard jobto manage 20 on one Shinto
priest.
You know it's a very hard jobto manage 20 or 30 Shinto
shrines by only one Shintopriest.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, I can't imagine it must be a struggle, because
purity, yeah, they have to bemaintained and cleaned.
So I guess one thing we haven'ttalked about is one way to
distinguish a temple and ashrine is the tori, sort of that
(55:17):
unique gate with two pillarsand the curving top, and that
can be made from wood, stone,even, um, metal or some type of.
And one should always bowbefore the tori when they go
(55:39):
through, and also learnt, youshould always walk on one side,
never in the middle, becausethat's where the kami is, that
where the kami pass through.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, kami pass yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:54):
So one thing I like about Shinto is when you do
visit a shrine, the structuremakes you present, so you're
focused.
Because you have to bow beforeyou go through the gate, because
you're entering, I guess, theworld of the Kemi, then you have
to be careful how you walk.
(56:15):
I'm walking on a side and thenyou purify, you wash your hands
and mouth and then, yes, youhave to clap and bow, and then
it's usually there is a strongsense of nature, because there's
usually trees or yeah, so itgives you, like this moment to
(56:36):
pause during the day and it'slike you're stepping into a
different world for a fewminutes.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, that's right.
Tori symbolizes a boundarybetween sacred area and human
beings area, so it's likegetting into the different world
.
So sometimes I feel likeJapanese people unconsciously
(57:07):
know how to build that kind ofspaces using natural power.
Even if you visit Shinto Shrinein the other area, maybe you
feel different things comparedwith outside Shinto Shrine,
(57:27):
because maybe there's somethingessence including inside Shinto
shrine.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
I think so.
I was in Shibuya on one of mylast trips and there was even
this very small Shinto shrine,sort of just around the corner
from a busy street, and then,once you walk through, yeah, you
have this sense of history andthings seem quieter and you then
(57:56):
, you know, you pull out a coin,maybe a Goyen usually, and,
yeah, you do this custom andyour focus is on just being
there, and then you can have alook at the design of the shrine
or the, I guess, the toddy orother elements.
(58:19):
So it does take you away, ittakes your mind away, your body
away, and then, yeah, when youleave, you're still thinking
about walking on the side andthen, hopefully, most people
turn around and and bow, uh,before they leave.
So I think it infuses orreminds people to be grateful as
(58:39):
well.
Like, generally, we, we have alot to be grateful for where
you're from, where I'm from verylucky to be born in these
countries.
So this practice, yeah, it wassort of confusing and I never
really understood it, but as Ibegin to understand it, it's
like really fascinating and it'ssomething I hope to share with
(59:04):
my audience and something I hopepeople who are listening to
this go and, do you know, visita shrine, or maybe even yours if
they're visiting Osaka, yeah,so yeah, I had that question.
Would you say Shinto iscustom-based, belief-based, or
(59:25):
is it both custom andbelief-based for Japanese?
Speaker 1 (59:32):
Maybe.
Yeah, basically custom-based,but to some extent I can say
belief-based.
So have you ever heard the word?
Speaker 2 (59:46):
No, but someone's looking at you.
Speaker 1 (59:49):
Not someone.
The sun is watching you, overyou, so sun symbolizes the kami
of sun.
Maybe you know AmaterasuOmikami is an ancestor of the
emperor, so it's an enshrinedkami at isejingu, and
(01:00:10):
unconscious, necessarily.
Maybe japanese people feel thatkind of like.
So sun is watching you.
There's nobody teaching, evenat school, but we feel, oh it,
oh, maybe Kami is watching you,yeah, so we cannot do bad
(01:00:36):
behavior.
Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
I like it.
Yeah, that's a good way to goabout your day-to-day thinking,
like positive encouragement andit's I mean, mean, the sun is
very important to japaneseculture.
It's part of the name um,you're on your flag.
Yeah, even when I went to, Iwent to mount fuji and there was
(01:01:02):
this feeling of presence, likethe mountains, kind of watching
over me, or I feel a mountain.
And the weekend we went or thedays we went, the forecast was
terrible.
It was like, oh, it's going tobe lots of fog and so I thought,
oh, you know, I won't see MountFuji.
(01:01:23):
And then something happened andthe weather was perfect and the
view of Mount Fuji was amazingand it looked like it was
photoshopped.
It looked incredible.
I just couldn't believe howthat sort of iconic image of
Mount Fuji but yeah, this sortof sense of energy and even
(01:01:45):
someone I interviewed talkedabout like, oh, you can feel the
mountain when you're near it,so maybe suggesting there's
spirits or kami in the mountain.
Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
So this oneness with nature, be it the sun, a
mountain, a tree, a river, arock's quite thought-provoking,
yeah, and there's I guessthere's no fear kind of other
religions, you know, dependingon the religion if you do
(01:02:22):
something wrong, you could go tohell, yes, or you've sinned and
so you must be forgiven.
There's no sense of fear withshinto.
And then, when something badhappens like these disasters,
japanese seem to learnacceptance like can't control
(01:02:43):
what's happened.
All we can do now is controlwhat we do from now.
Yeah, so very powerful lifelessons.
Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
That's right.
We cannot change the nature.
We cannot change the worldeasily.
Human beings cannot control theworld nature.
So of course nature has twoaspects good and bad for human
beings.
But maybe Japanese people knowthat we cannot control nature,
(01:03:17):
so that's why focusing on hereand now, yes, and that's all we
really have is the here and now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Even our experience of the future is always here and
now.
Even our experience of thefuture is always here and now?
Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Yes, we only have the here and now.
Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
So if people would like to visit you or visit your
website, you do have a websiteand you have pages in English,
so I'll link to your website inthe show notes and if people
Google your name, I thinkthere's a few videos of you
(01:03:56):
talking about Shintai.
Yeah, but do you have a finalmessage for our listeners?
Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, by listening to our conversation, I hope that
we are part of nature.
We feel we are part of nature,even though we live in a
different country, but we areinterconnected.
(01:04:29):
So this is my final messageThank you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Yes, so because we're interconnected, I'd like to
come and visit you.
Yes, please.
Hopefully that will be in June.
So, taishi, so wonderful totalk with you and thank you very
much for your time and sharingyour knowledge and wisdom with
me and our audience yeah, thankyou so much for giving a really
(01:04:59):
great opportunity to share myexperience as a shinto priest.
Yeah, my pleasure and I lookforward to seeing you soon in
person.
Looking forward to seeing yousoon.
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