April 21, 2025 • 58 mins
What can a single sip of tea reveal?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Dairik Amae on how the simple act of drinking tea can become a doorway to stillness.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So I can only talk from experience.
But a very interesting thingthat happened to me is I was
having just ice cream at7-Eleven and you know it would
always come with kind of aplastic spoon.
So I was just eating my icecream from the cup and just
using the plastic spoon, but Iwas holding it in a way I would
(00:24):
do with my tea utensils.
So I was kind of carefullyholding this plastic spoon and
for the first time I realizedhow it was well made.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
IkigaiTribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Daidiku Amaya, a
contemporary tea practitionerand teacher based in the ancient
capital of Kyoto, the epicenterof tea culture in Japan.
Daidiku began his practice inJapanese tea ceremony at the age
of 19 and has a background inJapanese architecture as well as
(01:01):
in design.
Over the years, he has lived inmultiple countries, including
Korea, russia, the US, syria andUkraine, and now calls Kyoto
home.
Thank you very much for joiningme today, daeriku.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Thank you for having me today.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So we had a chat a few weeks ago, so it was nice to
get to know you.
But I think it'd be interestingto touch on your background and
why you've lived in so manydifferent countries.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I was born first in Seoul in South Korea and moved
to Moscow in Russia, andeventually I lived in Hawaii.
Then in my middle school I wasin Damascus, syria, and
(01:53):
eventually in Kiev in Ukraine,and now I'm in Kyoto.
So the reason why I lived inmany countries is because my
father was a diplomat andtherefore we were posted in all
(02:13):
these countries.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So very interesting.
Did it just feel normal for youor was it challenging making
friends and then leaving friendsand making new friends and
different culture, differentlanguages?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, it was for sure very difficult as a small boy.
You know, every two or threeyears I would have to say
goodbye to my friends and makenew friends.
And again, a lot of thesecountries have such a different
culture, the language isdifferent, the food is different
(02:49):
, so adapting was I guess itjust had you know, I felt why I
was in that situation.
But looking back now I guess ithas helped me to accept and
appreciate many viewpoints andmany perspectives.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
In terms of picking up.
I mean, you don't really pickup languages, but how did you go
with communication in all thesedifferent countries?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So you know, I think mainly it's really through
watching local TV.
There's always some good animetranslated in the local language
and you know as a kid we'relike a sponge.
So I picked up the languagejust watching anime and I guess
at school my friends were 90%just local people and of course
English helped.
(03:37):
But I guess you know,communication it's not really
just about language, but it'skind of this even if you're not
able to speak the language,somehow people can connect.
Yeah, I was able to, I guess,connect through not just the
language.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And what about language at home?
Was that Japanese?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yes, it was my parents who are Japanese.
Yes, it was my parents who areJapanese.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So even if I never really went to a Japanese school
.
I never formally studiedJapanese, but just talking with
my parents.
And I have brothers, so I justkind of, you know, spoke
Japanese with them.
I see, so quite an interestingchildhood and teenagehood.
And then you returned to Japanwhen you were 19.
Is that correct, or was itbefore you were 19?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So I was back in Japan end of high school, so
kind of 17,.
You know a little bit beforeuniversity.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And so then obviously , something drew you to study
tea and become a cha-jin or atea practitioner.
So yeah, would you like toshare how that came about?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
As I mentioned, since I was outside Japan for such a
long time, I was naturallycurious about my own roots and
what does it mean to be Japaneseand what is Japanese culture?
And at the beginning I wasinterested in architecture, so
(05:14):
that's what I studied inuniversity and I was drawn to
more traditional architecture,you know, using wood and
carpentry and, of course, thetemple and shrines, and I
thought Kyoto is the best placeto study traditional
architecture.
And in particular, I was drawnto the tea room, which is kind
(05:37):
of a very small structure.
It was not considered evenarchitecture formally because
it's such a small and fragilebuilding, but I noticed many
contemporary architects Japanesearchitects would actually
design a tea room using modernmaterial.
So I just wanted to know moreabout what is a Japanese tea
(06:00):
ceremony.
So then I started looking for ateacher and eventually found my
current teacher or master.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So with architecture and, I think, other cultural
practices or arts or crafts,including tea, there's the
concept of ma.
Was that something you studied,or is that something more
intuitive that Japanese justsort of grow up with?
Or is it a combination of both?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I feel.
In my case this idea of ma wasthrough my architecture studies,
so I guess we can translate itas a negative space or this kind
of in-between space andtypically we have something
called the engawa.
Engawa is this in-betweeninside and outside.
(06:50):
It's kind of like a balcony,but it's kind of this ma or
in-between space between thegarden and inside.
Fortunately, I think nowJapanese people do not really
get to sense ma becauseeverything is quite modern and
not a lot of Japanese peoplepractice traditional arts.
(07:11):
But ma is also important incalligraphy or painting.
Even in traditional theater weuse ma.
So I think originally it wastaught through really practice
practicing the arts.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's a fascinating concept and it probably took me
a while to appreciate the ideaof negative space, this idea of
room, and how it's intentionallyused in architecture and, I
guess, in these other crafts,and it's something I feel we
probably need in today's chaoticworld with so much distraction
(07:49):
and we're overstimulated.
So I love this, this idea of ma, and I guess also that that
other related concept of utori,which is, I guess that's, more
psychological.
I guess these are reallyimportant elements to not only
the tea room but the practice oftea, which we'll probably talk
about later.
(08:09):
But what do you think drew youspecifically to tea?
Because there's so much aboutJapanese culture you could have
explored.
Why do you think it was tea?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
In my case, japanese way of tea is especially
connected to the architecture.
Japanese way of tea isespecially connected to the
architecture and it has helpedme understand the design process
and often Japanese design isknown to be simple or minimal
and that kind of comes from thisso-called tea practice.
(08:39):
In general we say Japanese teaceremony covers all other arts,
including flowers, calligraphy,gardening, cuisine.
So I thought for me it's niceas a university student that I
could see everything in one goaland not just kind of be
specialized in just flower or bespecialized in calligraphy and
(09:04):
touching all aspects.
I think it's more holistic.
So I think that's important tounderstand this kind of uh, you
know, more general generalperspective, because in the end
I was curious about thearchitecture.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, and so, in order to learn and study tea,
you obviously practice undersomeone, so I do want to share
about who you studied under somy uh tea master his name is uh
a soren bisgard, so he'sactually a danish tea master.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
He is from uh urasenke, which is a style of
tea.
There are different styles, soUrasenke is one of the main
schools of Japanese tea ceremony.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
There are two styles.
I think or I recall there aretwo styles.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So actually there are several, if you include, you
know big or small, but the majorones there is three.
We have Omotesenke Urasenke,mushano Koji Senkei, and they
are just kind of known to have alot more students.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Are the differences subtle or are they quite
significant?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So the difference is quite subtle in these three main
schools because they'reactually all related, they're
relatives, because they'reactually all related, they're
relatives.
But if we look at other teaschools, which could be even
called the samurai way of tea,then it's completely different
in the gestures and how the tearoom is.
(10:37):
But of course, in the end anytype of school would use matcha
for the tea.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
On the subject of tea , there seems to be several
names cha-do, sa-do, cha-no-yuand we often translate, or
Westerners understand tea as teaceremony.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
My understanding is some of these names represent
the practice of tea and maybe ischa-no-yu more a general
terminology for the concept ofserving tea so, um, then, you
know, there are really different, uh, interpretations, and I
think also depending on theperiod of time if this was, you
(11:17):
know, 16th century or 17thcentury or the present day there
is kind of differentinterpretations, but I think the
basic one we use is called Sadoor Chado.
So Cha means tea and Do meansway, and together it means a way
of tea, as we also have a Shodoand Sho means calligraphy, so
(11:39):
that's way of calligraphy.
We have Kado, which is a way offlower.
So all this is basically it's away of life revolving around
that particular aesthetic, andchado is, in my case, my life
revolves around the teaaesthetics, which is to enjoy
(12:00):
the subtle and simple beauty ofthings.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Lovely.
There is something fascinatingabout this idea of putting so
much effort and care intoserving tea and you, as the host
, don't drink tea when you'reperforming a ceremony or a tea
gathering, so that's quiteunique.
Gathering, so that's quiteunique.
(12:29):
So how do you think of tea?
Because I did speak to anothertea practitioner and he sort of
didn't like the idea of teaceremony.
I think he called it teagathering.
So when you're, if you'retrying to articulate it in
English, what would you call it?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So I think this word tea ceremony is, it was just
first used by Okakura Kakuzo.
He's an important figure whodescribed Japanese culture to
the Western audience.
But you know, we can call ittea gathering.
Sometimes I would call it tearitual.
(13:00):
For me, I feel, you know, onename is not more appropriate
than the other.
It really depends.
And I feel that this way of teais so open to interpretation
because it has an influence ofZen, and Zen ultimately doesn't
have a right or wrong, as thereare, we say, many paths leading
(13:24):
to the peak of the mountain.
And we could also say it's likea shape shifter and it just
takes the shape of the vessel,like water does.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So can you touch on the two types of chakai?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yes, there are two types.
So one we could call itinformal, we call it chakai, is
again tea, kai means kind ofgathering or meeting.
The second type is the moreso-called formal tea gathering,
which is called chaji, and chais again tg is more of the event
(13:59):
.
So chakai is I guess you cancall it much more simple.
It just has a serving of sweetsCalled wagashi, and it can be
short, like 30 minutes even, ora really quick drink, or it can
(14:20):
be quite long, it can be 1 hour90 minutes.
But this is more open to publicSometimes.
It's not always private.
So, on the other hand, chaji,this is more private, so it's
only for invited guests usually,and this can last up to three
(14:41):
to four hours because we servekind of a full course meal
called kaiseki, including that.
We also serve two types of tea,we call thick tea and thin tea.
But the main difference is thischaji it's it's more about
creating an intimate atmosphereamong the invited guests and the
(15:03):
host.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So that fascinated me when I first discovered, oh,
there was this longer tea eventwhere you serve a whole meal and
Kaiseki.
Actually, kaiseki was one ofthe first meals I had with my
wife and I was like, wow, thisis seven, eight, nine courses,
small dishes, all very beautifuland unique in their
(15:29):
presentation.
So, as a cha-jin, is thatsomething you make and prepare?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yes, so that's why we also have to learn about
cooking, how to cook kaiseki.
And again, it's kind of likewhen you invite your friends
over to your house and you wouldserve them lunch or dinner, and
it's a kind of a way to showthis kind of you know, kindness,
(15:57):
so we would, you know, cook andprepare everything for the
guests, and that kind of createshelps to create this intimate
relationship and so with achajiis the conversation formal.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I mean, it's such a long time.
Was it more casual, as you'reprogressing through the courses
and eating?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I guess you know it really depends on how the host
navigates and in what kind ofpurpose.
So if it's more of you know wehave seasonal festivals.
We have like Boys Day, girlsDay, you know, we have like
which is May 5th and March 3rd,or we also have like New Year's.
(16:45):
So in those cases maybe itcould be a little bit more
formal but the conversation canbe quite fluid.
But the rule is you don't wantto talk too much about work or
politics or your personalmatters, because we put that
outside the tea room and we havegathered to enjoy more of the
(17:07):
present moment.
And it's not about kind ofworldly talks.
You know, it's not like goingto the usual coffee house or tea
house to chat over what you sawon television or you know,
because that is something noteveryone can relate.
But if we eat the same food andyou notice something, we have a
(17:32):
more shared experience thesensations you feel, the smell
of the incense, what's happeningin the present moment, and
these things then we can sharewith the guests.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Nice.
So it sounds like it's anopportunity to almost escape the
outside world and then bepresent and appreciate obviously
the meal, the tea, but also thecompany of friends or guests
without too much stress.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I'm sure there's no gossiping or arguing yeah, so it
is really, uh, I would, I wouldcall it a temporary retreat
from the hustle and bustle ofbusy life and, you know, I guess
you can call it as a way todisconnect from all these uh
stressful things, um, becauseagain it is a meditation, um,
(18:27):
and it's a way to groundyourself and try to kind of, we
say, be normal.
It's a normalization process soyou can really enjoy things
with true eyes and then yourrole as the cha jin.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
You're there to serve the guests and obviously you
prepare.
A lot of preparation would gointo a tea event and then during
the cha ji or the cha kai, youdon't actually eat or drink.
So is that just that concept ofomotenashi like Japanese
service, and is there anyalternative?
Do sometimes tea practitionersshare tea with their guests?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So, as you say, the host usually is just serving and
we don't drink tea or eat thefood, or I mean we don't eat in
the same tea room, we usuallyjust eat at the back.
So this is kind of, we sayyin-yang relationship.
So when the host is serving,the guest is receiving.
It's a yin-yang relationship.
So when the host is serving,the guest is receiving.
(19:31):
As the host is active, theguest is passive.
It's kind of an interestingpractice.
But sometimes I think, when welook at it in a more historical
view you know it was practicedamong the samurai lords and
there is a lot of hierarchy andyour guest could be a lord and
you just don't want to bedisrespectful.
(19:52):
You would say, oh, I will eatat the back just to show respect
and you just be a kind of aserver.
But we also have a kind of aShinto aspect.
I believe that we are offeringthe meal and the tea to the kami
within the guest.
So kami is this idea of aspirit.
So we say the spirits visit youand you offer them sake and
(20:17):
food and you want them to stay.
So that's why you purify theroom, make it clean, so the
guests are in fact kind of likea visiting kami.
So that's why we would servethem, but we would not eat in
the same space.
But sometimes, you know, theguest would offer us tea, you
know, and the guest would say,oh, please join, and then we
(20:39):
would accept the offering.
So we would make tea forourselves, or sometimes the
guests would prepare tea for us.
So really, case by case itdepends.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So I imagine Achaji with all the food and even tea
itself is, I mean, good qualitytea is quite expensive.
So if you're inviting guests,is there some expectation they
offer a donation or contribution?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I feel it's, um, because you know it's really
inviting your intimate friends.
So the idea is the guests will,uh, invite you.
So it's kind of, you know, giveand take.
But I think the idea is it'smore kind of for your own
personal practice.
So it's not being, it's notlike a restaurant, you know,
(21:26):
it's not like you're servingthem, but you are, you want to
practice, and you're kind ofasking the guests to come and
use their time, cause you know,we know everyone is so busy and
we say, oh, thank you for comingand thank you for participating
in my practice.
But of course, some guests, youknow they, they feel they want
(21:48):
to give back.
So some would maybe wrap somefee or they would maybe bring
some gifts, you know.
But I think what's important isyou shouldn't expect any kind
of payment because you know youare really it's more about
giving and offering and for yourown practice.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I see.
So what about with regard tolearning tea?
What kind of relationship isthat?
It almost sounds like it's anapprenticeship, but would you be
paying your teacher to learn?
Because I'm sort of wonderingoh, you're a tea practitioner,
how do you make a living fromthat?
So there are different cases.
It really depends on how theteacher wants to do.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
But I think originally this know there are
different cases, it reallydepends on how the teacher wants
to do, but I think originallyyou know this was not a source
of income.
So the past tea masters, youknow their main job is a samurai
or a merchant, you know theyhave their own business and the
tea is just kind of a morespiritual practice and they
(22:51):
would teach students.
But you know it's not liketheir main source of income.
But of course nowadays thereare tea teachers dedicated to
just teaching and it's kind of amonthly fee.
So in Rasenke there is kind ofa standard that you pay monthly
to the student, pays to the teateacher.
(23:13):
But I guess you know in the endit's really up to each teacher
how they want to cover theexpenses or you know how they
want to live with it.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
And are you finding this is an assumption?
Obviously, you mentionedearlier less Japanese drinking
tea and obviously, learning tea,but there seems to be also
interest from foreigners wantingto learn chado.
So is that the case?
There's more interest recentlyfrom foreigners and less from
(23:45):
Japanese themselves.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So I'm not really sure about the actual numbers of
Japanese students.
So you know, of course theJapanese population in general
is decreasing and much of thetea students are elder people.
You know, in my grandmother'sgeneration it was very popular,
but in my father's generationnot as much.
(24:08):
But at least in Kyoto we have alot of universities and usually
they have a kind ofafter-school tea club, so they
have.
You know, at least one biguniversity has like 300 tea
students.
I think that's a big number.
But of course you know, whenthey graduate and once they
start working in Tokyo, maybethey might not continue.
(24:31):
So there is growing interestabroad and Urasenkei always has
branches outside in differentcountries.
So I don't know if that'sincreasing, but for sure there
are more people drinking matchanow.
And the interest for matcha teais uh growing, but I think that
(24:54):
doesn't mean there's interest inthis so-called japanese way of
tea, or uh tea ceremony.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah now I can get a I think it's a chai matcha latte
at my local cafes.
Not sure of the quality of theactual matcha, but I do recall a
previous podcast guest sharingwith me that girls would learn
was it the golden triangle orsomething they would learn chado
(25:23):
, chodo and kado, likecalligraphy, flower arrangement
and tea ceremony and I think Itold you when we spoke, my
father makes much a jowl.
So tea ceremony bowls, yeah,and I think in the 70s and 80s
lots of demand, but now likevery little demand and they've
(25:45):
had to focus on making differentcups, like you know me, and
even cups for export to china,because it's not a thing every
young girl does now anymore yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
I think again in my grandmother's generation she
told me it was a must to learnif you want to, let's say, be a
be seen as educated, or like agood housewife, let's say that
you must know how to do teaflowers.
You know, wear the kimono.
It's kind of basic.
But I think now that kind ofstandard has disappeared, which
(26:22):
I feel is you know, it's okay, Imean, it's a trend, it changes
and I think now post-pandemicpeople are more interested in
the spirit and not about kind ofmanners or you know, like, how
to wear a kimono, but they'remore interested in about this
mindfulness practice and how itmakes one present.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
On that theme of being present or spirit, there
is a yoji jukugo, so a characterword that articulates, I guess,
the principles of tea, and Iremember reading this in a book
and then first thinking, oh,this is hard to say, so it's
what case?
A jack, and this is a reallyimportant principle of tea, so
(27:05):
would you like to touch on it?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yes.
So we often say there are fourprinciples of Chan-O-Yu.
So we say Wa.
Wa means harmony, kei meansrespect, sei means purity, jaku
means tranquility.
So Wa, kei, sei, jaku so Wa.
(27:29):
This idea of harmony isoriginally.
There are differentinterpretations, but one could
say it comes from Taoism, andTaoism is about being in harmony
with nature.
You know they practice in themountains.
But when we say being inharmony with nature, it doesn't
mean human versus nature, butit's also your inner nature.
(27:52):
Then next is Kei, respect.
So this is kind of Confucian.
Confucian is about, you know,we say respect the elders.
So we always bow in Japan.
So why do we respect elders?
It's because we assume theyhave more wisdom.
So this is bowing to wisdom.
So when you feel you havelearned something from someone,
(28:13):
we bow to say thank you.
So we can even bow to an objectif we feel you learned
something from the object.
So we would even bow to aflower.
We would bow to the utensilsbecause there's so much wisdom
in that.
You know the material and thetime it took to make it.
(28:34):
A lot of knowledge is there, sowe would even bow to the
utensils.
So this is a kei.
Next is a sei.
This is a purity.
So this comes from Shinto.
Shinto is our local religion,more kind of nature worship, and
if you go to the shrine youoften see in the morning they're
(28:54):
sweeping and cleaning so andusing water to cleanse your
hands and mouth.
So this is to purify your heart, your mind and heart from
worldly dust.
So we're always purifyingutensils and cleaning in the tea
room.
Finally, there's a jaku.
Jaku is tranquility.
(29:16):
This is kind of Buddhism andoften can be translated as
awareness or maybe you can sayenlightenment.
But when you have this wa keisei, naturally you become aware.
So this is kind of the fourprinciples often used to
(29:36):
describe Chan-o-yu.
But of course it's not justabout the tea but life in
general.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You can apply this to all aspects of your daily life
and that was my next questionhas the practice of tea and
deeply understanding thisconcept, all these concepts of
wa Keisei Jaku, does that reallyseep into other areas of your
life and does it help you staygrounded and stay, I guess,
(30:02):
having appreciation morethoughtful and considerate in a
sometimes very chaotic and crazyworld?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So I can only talk from experience.
But a very interesting thingthat happened to me is I was
having just ice cream at7-Eleven and it would always
come with kind of a plasticspoon.
So I was just eating my icecream from the cup and just
using the plastic spoon, but Iwas holding it in a way I would
(30:35):
do with my tea utensils.
So I was kind of carefullyholding this plastic spoon and
for the first time I realizedhow it was well made, very good
design.
So you know, I noticed whilethere must have been a lot of
prototypes and there must havebeen a lot of trial and error
and they came up with thisplastic spoon which doesn't, you
(30:59):
know, break so easily and it'seasy to scoop my ice cream.
And I've held the spoon many,many times before but usually I
never notice it, I just throw itaway before.
But usually I never notice it,I just throw it away.
And there are so many of thesesubtle things we don't notice.
But that is where there is alot of beauty and there's
(31:21):
actually a lot of wisdom.
And by practicing thediscerimony you start to become
aware of these things, theseinsignificant things in life.
But these insignificant thingsare equally important.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Something maybe somewhat related to that and
something I know you wanted totalk about is this idea of
non-verbal communication, whichI'm sure requires this presence
and this inner peace, I thinkthis urge not to talk or say or
repeat yourself which is socommon, I guess, in Western
(32:04):
cultures.
Like in the West we say theseuncomfortable silences, but I
think in Japan there are thesecomfortable silences which I'm
beginning to really enjoy, whichI try to remind myself when I'm
here in Australia.
So yeah, would you like to talkabout non-verbal communication
and its role in tea ceremony,but also maybe in life in
(32:28):
general in Japan?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
so this, this so-called nonverbal
communication, it's verydifficult to explain with words
because it is really throughexperience.
So you know, it's really likefeeling the same wind or the
breeze together.
When you are in the wilderness,maybe with a friend, and you
(33:01):
know, maybe you've been walkinga long time and you're tired,
and you and your friend justfind a nice spot to sit and you
feel a good breeze, summerbreeze, and both of you just
kind of say oh, you know, andthere's nothing more you need to
say because you both know youfelt that kind of comfortable
wind and it's same with, maybe,the feeling of warmth.
(33:22):
When you do, like a bonfire,you know people gather around
the fire and at some point, youknow, you just stop talking and
you're just kind of mesmerizedby the beauty of the fire, the
crackling of the sound, maybeyou notice the smoke going up,
making different kinds of shape,and a lot of these things are
(33:46):
beyond words and that is kind ofsomething that there is no
words to describe it.
So naturally there is thissilence, but we are still
communicating because weunderstand we both, or the
guests and the host, felt it.
But, as you say, in society, asyou mentioned, how does it apply
(34:08):
in society?
In society, uh, yeah, as you,as you mentioned, how does it
apply in society?
Um, I think it's kind of um.
We say kehai.
Kehai in japanese means kind ofread, read the, read the air.
So we say uh, read the air.
But I think it's kind of likewhen you see uh like uh chefs in
(34:32):
the kitchen and you know, theykind of know what's the next
next step.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
So naturally you don't need much talking and
everything is just big one oneuh, one body, yeah it's very
comforting once you begin tounderstand oh, I don't need to
state what's felt or what'sobvious, we're probably all
feeling or thinking the samething about this bonfire or the
(35:01):
beautiful reflection of a pondor the sound of rain.
Why spoil it with stating, oh,this bonfire is amazing, or just
, yeah, be present enough tofully enjoy it.
It's something I try toencourage guests who go to Japan
(35:24):
, like be mindful, like ifyou're in a restaurant and
you're saying, oh, this is sodelicious, you're kind of
breaking the harmony.
So sort of quietly appreciatewhat you experience and then
you'll probably enjoy it morebecause you'll be more present.
So I love that aspect.
It's something I really try toembrace and it's been very
(35:47):
helpful for me with difficultconversations or in groups.
I just kind of find myselfsitting back and being more of
an observer and then it gives metime to collect my thoughts and
then when I want to saysomething, I can say something
very measured, in control, notreactive or responsive.
So it's definitely hasbenefited me.
(36:11):
Embracing this idea of it usedto be holding back, but now I
feel like, oh, I'm not holdingback, I kind of want to relax.
So with that we should probablytalk about matcha and actually
I told my wife today I'minterviewing this interesting
guy who's a tea practitioner andI said is there any question?
You'd want me to ask him.
(36:32):
And she did say, oh, beinteresting to get his opinion
on what's happened to matcha,like it's being exported now.
I believe good quality matchais sort of hard to find now,
even in Japan.
So, as someone who practicestea ceremony and obviously you
want a very high grade of teawhat are your thoughts on
(36:55):
everything from you can go to?
I can go to my cafe now andprobably get a matcha smoothie
or a matcha chai latte, andmaybe it's harder for you to buy
matcha tea now and it'sprobably more expensive.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yes, as you say, there is a growing global demand
for matcha, even high qualitymatcha that we use for the tea
gatherings.
It's being taken, I guess.
And I mean, you know, I'm gladthat there is increasing
(37:31):
interest and I hope the teafarmers, you know they benefit
from all this.
But I think there is a lack ofunderstanding how to enjoy it,
because it's just consumed maybewith sweeteners and mixing into
.
You know, it's a flavor,basically, and you really don't
(37:53):
need such high quality matchafor a matcha latte, let's say,
because you know these teafarmers are trying so hard to
make tea which you can enjoy itwith just hot water, just
straight, and just to enjoy itas it is.
But the consumer, withoutunderstanding, just adds a lot
(38:15):
of things.
You can't really taste theoriginal flavor or how it's
meant to be tasted.
So you know, I think we justhave to know that there are
matcha which is good for mixingand there is matcha which is
more appropriate for drinkingstraight.
(38:35):
And as a tea practitioner, yes,I'm surprised it's difficult
even for us now to get matcha.
Of course we still can becausewe know the tea companies well
enough.
So we can, you know, becausethey keep for tea practitioners,
(38:55):
you know, with that there'salso a shortage of bamboo tea
whisks and other utensils andagain, it's okay.
But I think people need to knowyou don't want to use a bamboo
tea whisk for your lattes.
You know it's not meant formilk and it just ruins the whisk
much more quickly.
(39:17):
So you can use maybe some othermaterial whisk.
That's okay.
But I think from our side wehaven't been speaking out too
much and there isn't reallyaccess to real knowledge.
Unfortunately, people justwatch what's on the social media
(39:38):
and just think that's theproper way.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yes, we tend to.
I guess Western influenceeither adds a new angle or a
sort of modern take.
We are concerned to origin orpractice and in that process I
think, yeah, there is thisessence that's lost.
All this no understanding,there's not this full
(40:02):
understanding to appreciate it.
We just we don't.
Oh, matcha cool, make a lattewith it, make an ice cream with
it, add sweetener to it.
I guess one could argue.
There's a sort of pros and cons, but it kind of the essence of
tea of matcha is this idea toslow down.
It's always fascinating to seematcha whisk and the sound.
(40:26):
It's like this unique teathat's turned into a powder.
And yeah, how did this, thisevolution of serving tea, come
about?
From straining tea leaves toturning it, to drying it, to
turning it into a powder?
So I do have a question on thatwhy, how did it evolve?
Or how did japanese work outour tea?
(40:46):
This type of tea leaf is bestserved after it's dried and
essentially crunched into powderform.
What's the history behind that?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
there are, uh, ancient records, but again, tea
itself is not a native plant toJapan.
It's a type of camellia, it'scalled Camellia sinensis, and
this is said to have beenbrought together with Buddhism
because Buddhism also is not anative thing, of course.
(41:17):
Originally it comes from india,then it went to china and we
learned buddhism from ancientchina.
So, anyways, uh, when when teawas was brought into japan, this
method of powdered tea existed.
But they say it's not like theone we have now.
(41:38):
So the one we have now, thecolor is much more bright green
and this is a unique evolutionto Japanese, I guess, tea
farming technique.
So we shade the tea bush, weeven cut 90% of the sunlight and
(41:59):
what it does is the tea leavesstart to collect as much
sunlight so it starts to grow alittle bit more wide and soft
and that actually increases thechlorophyll and the other health
benefits actually increase.
So this was kind of, I guess,kind of experimental thing.
(42:23):
Which tea more soft, so thenit's easier to make it into fine
powder at the end and it hasthis more green color.
So that is the big differencebetween tea grown for matcha
it's growing in a shade, whereasregular green tea or sencha.
It just grows in the sun and westill kind of of course with
(42:48):
that.
Scientifically we do a lot ofresearch about what gives the
umami.
Umami is kind of a taste.
It's kind of like a salty taste, I guess, but it's a taste
described for often like kombubroth, like seaweed broth.
So green tea has a lot of umamiand this is due to the amino
(43:14):
acid increase of amino acid.
So the farmers try to make thesoil more adapting to this
certain, to bring out thisflavor.
So I think these are really theunique points in Japanese tea
growing this kind of shadingtechnique and this idea of umami
(43:37):
and this idea of umami.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
And is it true, the brighter the powder, the
brighter the grain, the betterquality it is, or it's assumed.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
So I think we have to be careful because there's a
trend in this tea world and thiskind of bright green trend.
One farmer said it justdeveloped in the 70s and in the
70s tea kind of was marketed forits bright green color.
I think you know now people arelooking for the more organic
and not really talking aboutthis kind of color.
(44:18):
So the system is how we judgethe quality of tea is really
based on color, smell and taste.
So it's really that currentqualification color is very
important, but that doesn'treally mean it has the most
health benefit, because thatreally also depends on the soil
(44:40):
quality and other elements.
But I think for us teapractitioners it's really about
the health benefits, becausewe're offering medicine to the
guests.
And for me, this type of qualitymatcha a fresh matcha has a
(45:02):
high level of L-theanine.
So L-theanine, it makes onecalm and it kind of also helps
deal with anxiety.
So this is important becausethat is why the Zen monks have
matcha, because they feel morerelaxed and that assists
(45:25):
meditation.
Of course we also know matchahas the antioxidants, so-called
EGCG.
So I think that's why there's amatcha craze worldwide, because
people want these antioxidants.
But again, this is only in thefresh matcha leaves.
It's not in the matcha sweets.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
So, wow, people probably should be drinking
matcha in the morning instead ofcoffee.
What about the shelf life ofmatcha?
So when you acquire matcha, howlong is it good for?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
So what is recommended by tea producers is,
if it's first of all, matcha isvery weak against temperature
and oxygen because it oxidizesvery quickly, so you want to
keep it in the refrigerator.
So it doesn't do well in roomtemperature.
(46:21):
So always keep it in therefrigerator, not in the freezer
.
And again, if it's unopened,you can leave it for one year, I
would say.
But once it's opened, you wantto consume it relatively quick
because again, it's somethingraw and fresh.
So you know you want to keep itin the airtight can, but once
(46:42):
it's opened, maybe you want toconsume it within one month.
You know, one or two months, Iguess.
Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
All right, I'll keep that in mind.
My wife's trying to buy somegood quality matcha and she's
waiting on a shipment, so it'shard to get here in Melbourne.
So, dairiku, you recommendedthe book of tea by Kakuzo
Okakura, and it was firstpublished in 1906.
(47:18):
It's a short but dense book andI'd like to quote from it.
Great as has been the influenceof the tea masters in the field
of art, it is nothing comparedto what they have exerted on the
conduct of life, not only inthe usage of polite society, but
also in the arrangement of alldomestic duties.
(47:39):
Do we feel the presence of teamasters?
Many of our delicate dishes, aswell as our way of serving food
, are their inventions.
They have taught us to dressonly in garments of sombre
colours.
They have instructed us in theproper spirit with which to
approach flowers.
They have emphasized ournatural love of simplicity and
(48:04):
shown us the beauty of humility.
In fact, through theirteachings, tea has entered the
life of the people.
So that's quite amazing.
Is this your hope as a teapractitioner to have this
influence?
Speaker 1 (48:26):
your hope, as a tea practitioner, to have this
influence.
So I read this book of tea whenI was 19 years old, when I
first began the tea practice,and of course at that time I
desired to, you know, spreadthis art of tea or art of life.
But now I've've been doing itfor many, many years.
I'm 37 now and I think for meit's not really about spreading
(48:49):
it, but just setting a goodexample and just kind of doing
what is for me right and nottrying to over over exaggerate
things.
And I think if people areinterested, you know they can
come and experience.
But I feel I shouldn't try tobe like a preaching, you know.
(49:11):
So, yes, that is my currentthought.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
And what do you hope that people will get out of the
experience of tea with you?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
so you know many people who visit me enjoy the
quietness, especially nowbecause you know kyoto is just
crazy with so many visitors forthe cherry blossoms and
everywhere you go.
You know you can't really findthe the quietness.
But when they come you knowthey really feel this, they feel
(49:42):
maybe safe and that they feelthere is, it's okay to be as
they like, there's no need toact and I usually call it the
state of happy boring.
So you're kind of bored buthappy.
There's no need to expectanything, there's no need to
(50:05):
desire anything, and again, justto be present and enjoy a
simple cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
So, as you know, this podcast deals with ikigai and
there's this irony to theconcept of ikigai in that
Japanese really don't mentionthe word that often.
It's usually something veryprivate, they probably don't
even really think about it thatmuch.
And then in the West it'sbecome very popular and sort of
associated to finding your onelife purpose or your dream job
(50:37):
or your bliss.
Yet it's also a concept ofstudy in Japan and there are
many papers that measure ikigaiand describe it.
They try to understand it inthe context of, you know, the
elderly university students.
So it is also an area ofresearch and study, and I'm
(51:00):
writing a book, a second book,on ikigai, and I asked about 30
Japanese to share you know whattheir ikigai is, knowing it's a
little bit of an unusualquestion.
So I got some people saying, oh, I really can't answer it, to
some people finding it very easyto answer, and actually one man
(51:22):
said, oh, it's learning tea.
I really enjoy the time I spendlearning tea, and now my son's
also joining me to learn tea aswell.
So it's a very.
It was, yeah, sounded like avery important source of Ikigai
to him.
You've been doing this for along time, and so my question is
do you think one can experienceikigai in a bowl of?
Speaker 1 (51:45):
tea.
Yes, so, as you mentioned theword ikigai, you know I don't
come across it so much inJapanese language, so from my
perspective it's kind of it'snot.
It doesn't have a cleardefinition, because ikiru means
to live.
You know, like you feel alive.
(52:07):
You know, that's how I wouldinterpret it.
For me, this idea of you feelalive is basically, you know,
same as uh, aware and beingpresent.
Because I think you know when weare maybe doing something, uh,
(52:27):
which is not with uh, enjoyment,let's say, or you know it's,
it's, it's not really uh, youknow you don't want to do it,
but I think I don't know if youcan feel ikigai in a bowl of tea
(52:50):
.
But we say you know puttingaside all expectations and you
know putting aside all desiresand just kind of feeling
yourself.
You know how do you feel andit's, I think, a time to
self-contemplate andself-reflect.
(53:10):
So it's kind of a very personaltime, it's not to chat about
worldly things and I thinkgiving that uh moment to
yourself, one can feel that youare alive and maybe helps you
feel ikigai.
But I guess you know this isvery, very difficult because the
(53:34):
word is so catchy, just like,uh, the word Zen is catchy and
it kind of has so manyassumptions what it is and that
creates expectations.
And that's why we say it'sdifficult to transmit this,
(53:55):
because people, their mind, isalready full of ideas of what
this is so first.
That's why we say empty yourcup.
You first have to empty allpre-assumptions and then you can
really enjoy the tea as it is.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Yeah, that reminds me of the concept of beginner mind
to go back to that state whereyou were open to learning, but
also that you had the desire tolearn and there's no assumption
now that, oh, I know enough, Idon't really need to learn this
again.
And so I guess that takesawareness, like, oh, I'm going
(54:37):
to put aside my assumptions,what I know, and be present to
learn again.
And so, speaking of learning,would you like to tell us about
Totosha?
Is that correct?
So I imagine that's a place oflearning.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yes, totosha is the name of my tea house and it is a
place to learn and toexperience, so it's where I
teach my students about what wewere kind of talking about, and
it's basically situated ontemple grounds.
(55:15):
It's on Daitokuji.
Daitokuji is a Zen Buddhisttemple.
You know.
Right across we have historicaltea rooms where tea masters
have and also samurai lords havebeen doing tea, so I've been
(55:36):
here since 2013.
It's also a place for my ownpractice, but it's basically
open to anyone who is curious.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Well, I'm curious, so I'd definitely like to meet you
and maybe experience tea atTotosha.
Another way that just came tomind was Ibasho.
So would Totosha, or even aChashitsu, be like an Ibasho for
you, where you can just beyourself?
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yes, ibasho is, I think, for me, the tea room is
Ibasho for the tea practitioner.
But we would often say it's anextension of of your body.
I would say it's kind of likethe secret base that, as kids
you know, we would make a treehouse or make a secret base
(56:33):
using cardboard boxes orwhatever you know.
So it's kind of a place thatyou can be yourself and feel
comfortable.
It's also your own littlecosmic world.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Nice.
Well, I'd love to visit yourcosmic world, so how can people
contact you?
Speaker 1 (56:58):
So I mean you can of course always look up my name
and look up Totosha.
I mean I don't have a webpageor anything, so somehow people
who are searching find me.
So yeah, if you keep onsearching, we might meet.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
That is a frustration .
I'm finding it's very hard tocontact crafts people or priests
, and then the most unlikelyplace seems to be Instagram.
So I'm glad I sent you thatmessage on Instagram because I
was thinking there's no way thisguy's going to reply.
He's probably not even lookingat his Instagram.
(57:39):
You reply very quickly.
So thank you for replying andthank you for sharing your time
with me.
So that's Dairiku Amai, so Imight spell it out.
So it's D-A-I-R-I-K and thenA-M-A-E.
We'll put a link to yourInstagram page in the show notes
(58:04):
and thank you so much for yourtime.
And, yes, I'd love toexperience tea with you, daeriku
, in Kyoto.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yes, thank you very much, so I look forward to
serving you tea in Kyoto.
Speaker 2 (58:20):
Wonderful.
So I can only talk from experience.
But a very interesting thingthat happened to me is I was
having just ice cream at7-Eleven and you know it would
always come with kind of aplastic spoon.
So I was just eating my icecream from the cup and just
using the plastic spoon, but Iwas holding it in a way I would
(00:24):
do with my tea utensils.
So I was kind of carefullyholding this plastic spoon and
for the first time I realizedhow it was well made.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
IkigaiTribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Daidiku Amaya, a
contemporary tea practitionerand teacher based in the ancient
capital of Kyoto, the epicenterof tea culture in Japan.
Daidiku began his practice inJapanese tea ceremony at the age
of 19 and has a background inJapanese architecture as well as
(01:01):
in design.
Over the years, he has lived inmultiple countries, including
Korea, russia, the US, syria andUkraine, and now calls Kyoto
home.
Thank you very much for joiningme today, daeriku.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Thank you for having me today.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So we had a chat a few weeks ago, so it was nice to
get to know you.
But I think it'd be interestingto touch on your background and
why you've lived in so manydifferent countries.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I was born first in Seoul in South Korea and moved
to Moscow in Russia, andeventually I lived in Hawaii.
Then in my middle school I wasin Damascus, syria, and
(01:53):
eventually in Kiev in Ukraine,and now I'm in Kyoto.
So the reason why I lived inmany countries is because my
father was a diplomat andtherefore we were posted in all
(02:13):
these countries.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So very interesting.
Did it just feel normal for youor was it challenging making
friends and then leaving friendsand making new friends and
different culture, differentlanguages?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes, it was for sure very difficult as a small boy.
You know, every two or threeyears I would have to say
goodbye to my friends and makenew friends.
And again, a lot of thesecountries have such a different
culture, the language isdifferent, the food is different
(02:49):
, so adapting was I guess itjust had you know, I felt why I
was in that situation.
But looking back now I guess ithas helped me to accept and
appreciate many viewpoints andmany perspectives.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
In terms of picking up.
I mean, you don't really pickup languages, but how did you go
with communication in all thesedifferent countries?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
So you know, I think mainly it's really through
watching local TV.
There's always some good animetranslated in the local language
and you know as a kid we'relike a sponge.
So I picked up the languagejust watching anime and I guess
at school my friends were 90%just local people and of course
English helped.
(03:37):
But I guess you know,communication it's not really
just about language, but it'skind of this even if you're not
able to speak the language,somehow people can connect.
Yeah, I was able to, I guess,connect through not just the
language.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
And what about language at home?
Was that Japanese?
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yes, it was my parents who are Japanese.
Yes, it was my parents who areJapanese.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
So even if I never really went to a Japanese school
.
I never formally studiedJapanese, but just talking with
my parents.
And I have brothers, so I justkind of, you know, spoke
Japanese with them.
I see, so quite an interestingchildhood and teenagehood.
And then you returned to Japanwhen you were 19.
Is that correct, or was itbefore you were 19?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
So I was back in Japan end of high school, so
kind of 17,.
You know a little bit beforeuniversity.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And so then obviously , something drew you to study
tea and become a cha-jin or atea practitioner.
So yeah, would you like toshare how that came about?
Speaker 1 (04:54):
As I mentioned, since I was outside Japan for such a
long time, I was naturallycurious about my own roots and
what does it mean to be Japaneseand what is Japanese culture?
And at the beginning I wasinterested in architecture, so
(05:14):
that's what I studied inuniversity and I was drawn to
more traditional architecture,you know, using wood and
carpentry and, of course, thetemple and shrines, and I
thought Kyoto is the best placeto study traditional
architecture.
And in particular, I was drawnto the tea room, which is kind
(05:37):
of a very small structure.
It was not considered evenarchitecture formally because
it's such a small and fragilebuilding, but I noticed many
contemporary architects Japanesearchitects would actually
design a tea room using modernmaterial.
So I just wanted to know moreabout what is a Japanese tea
(06:00):
ceremony.
So then I started looking for ateacher and eventually found my
current teacher or master.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So with architecture and, I think, other cultural
practices or arts or crafts,including tea, there's the
concept of ma.
Was that something you studied,or is that something more
intuitive that Japanese justsort of grow up with?
Or is it a combination of both?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I feel.
In my case this idea of ma wasthrough my architecture studies,
so I guess we can translate itas a negative space or this kind
of in-between space andtypically we have something
called the engawa.
Engawa is this in-betweeninside and outside.
(06:50):
It's kind of like a balcony,but it's kind of this ma or
in-between space between thegarden and inside.
Fortunately, I think nowJapanese people do not really
get to sense ma becauseeverything is quite modern and
not a lot of Japanese peoplepractice traditional arts.
(07:11):
But ma is also important incalligraphy or painting.
Even in traditional theater weuse ma.
So I think originally it wastaught through really practice
practicing the arts.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It's a fascinating concept and it probably took me
a while to appreciate the ideaof negative space, this idea of
room, and how it's intentionallyused in architecture and, I
guess, in these other crafts,and it's something I feel we
probably need in today's chaoticworld with so much distraction
(07:49):
and we're overstimulated.
So I love this, this idea of ma, and I guess also that that
other related concept of utori,which is, I guess that's, more
psychological.
I guess these are reallyimportant elements to not only
the tea room but the practice oftea, which we'll probably talk
about later.
(08:09):
But what do you think drew youspecifically to tea?
Because there's so much aboutJapanese culture you could have
explored.
Why do you think it was tea?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
In my case, japanese way of tea is especially
connected to the architecture.
Japanese way of tea isespecially connected to the
architecture and it has helpedme understand the design process
and often Japanese design isknown to be simple or minimal
and that kind of comes from thisso-called tea practice.
(08:39):
In general we say Japanese teaceremony covers all other arts,
including flowers, calligraphy,gardening, cuisine.
So I thought for me it's niceas a university student that I
could see everything in one goaland not just kind of be
specialized in just flower or bespecialized in calligraphy and
(09:04):
touching all aspects.
I think it's more holistic.
So I think that's important tounderstand this kind of uh, you
know, more general generalperspective, because in the end
I was curious about thearchitecture.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, and so, in order to learn and study tea,
you obviously practice undersomeone, so I do want to share
about who you studied under somy uh tea master his name is uh
a soren bisgard, so he'sactually a danish tea master.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
He is from uh urasenke, which is a style of
tea.
There are different styles, soUrasenke is one of the main
schools of Japanese tea ceremony.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
There are two styles.
I think or I recall there aretwo styles.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So actually there are several, if you include, you
know big or small, but the majorones there is three.
We have Omotesenke Urasenke,mushano Koji Senkei, and they
are just kind of known to have alot more students.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Are the differences subtle or are they quite
significant?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So the difference is quite subtle in these three main
schools because they'reactually all related, they're
relatives, because they'reactually all related, they're
relatives.
But if we look at other teaschools, which could be even
called the samurai way of tea,then it's completely different
in the gestures and how the tearoom is.
(10:37):
But of course, in the end anytype of school would use matcha
for the tea.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
On the subject of tea , there seems to be several
names cha-do, sa-do, cha-no-yuand we often translate, or
Westerners understand tea as teaceremony.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
My understanding is some of these names represent
the practice of tea and maybe ischa-no-yu more a general
terminology for the concept ofserving tea so, um, then, you
know, there are really different, uh, interpretations, and I
think also depending on theperiod of time if this was, you
(11:17):
know, 16th century or 17thcentury or the present day there
is kind of differentinterpretations, but I think the
basic one we use is called Sadoor Chado.
So Cha means tea and Do meansway, and together it means a way
of tea, as we also have a Shodoand Sho means calligraphy, so
(11:39):
that's way of calligraphy.
We have Kado, which is a way offlower.
So all this is basically it's away of life revolving around
that particular aesthetic, andchado is, in my case, my life
revolves around the teaaesthetics, which is to enjoy
(12:00):
the subtle and simple beauty ofthings.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Lovely.
There is something fascinatingabout this idea of putting so
much effort and care intoserving tea and you, as the host
, don't drink tea when you'reperforming a ceremony or a tea
gathering, so that's quiteunique.
Gathering, so that's quiteunique.
(12:29):
So how do you think of tea?
Because I did speak to anothertea practitioner and he sort of
didn't like the idea of teaceremony.
I think he called it teagathering.
So when you're, if you'retrying to articulate it in
English, what would you call it?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
So I think this word tea ceremony is, it was just
first used by Okakura Kakuzo.
He's an important figure whodescribed Japanese culture to
the Western audience.
But you know, we can call ittea gathering.
Sometimes I would call it tearitual.
(13:00):
For me, I feel, you know, onename is not more appropriate
than the other.
It really depends.
And I feel that this way of teais so open to interpretation
because it has an influence ofZen, and Zen ultimately doesn't
have a right or wrong, as thereare, we say, many paths leading
(13:24):
to the peak of the mountain.
And we could also say it's likea shape shifter and it just
takes the shape of the vessel,like water does.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
So can you touch on the two types of chakai?
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yes, there are two types.
So one we could call itinformal, we call it chakai, is
again tea, kai means kind ofgathering or meeting.
The second type is the moreso-called formal tea gathering,
which is called chaji, and chais again tg is more of the event
(13:59):
.
So chakai is I guess you cancall it much more simple.
It just has a serving of sweetsCalled wagashi, and it can be
short, like 30 minutes even, ora really quick drink, or it can
(14:20):
be quite long, it can be 1 hour90 minutes.
But this is more open to publicSometimes.
It's not always private.
So, on the other hand, chaji,this is more private, so it's
only for invited guests usually,and this can last up to three
(14:41):
to four hours because we servekind of a full course meal
called kaiseki, including that.
We also serve two types of tea,we call thick tea and thin tea.
But the main difference is thischaji it's it's more about
creating an intimate atmosphereamong the invited guests and the
(15:03):
host.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So that fascinated me when I first discovered, oh,
there was this longer tea eventwhere you serve a whole meal and
Kaiseki.
Actually, kaiseki was one ofthe first meals I had with my
wife and I was like, wow, thisis seven, eight, nine courses,
small dishes, all very beautifuland unique in their
(15:29):
presentation.
So, as a cha-jin, is thatsomething you make and prepare?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yes, so that's why we also have to learn about
cooking, how to cook kaiseki.
And again, it's kind of likewhen you invite your friends
over to your house and you wouldserve them lunch or dinner, and
it's a kind of a way to showthis kind of you know, kindness,
(15:57):
so we would, you know, cook andprepare everything for the
guests, and that kind of createshelps to create this intimate
relationship and so with achajiis the conversation formal.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I mean, it's such a long time.
Was it more casual, as you'reprogressing through the courses
and eating?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I guess you know it really depends on how the host
navigates and in what kind ofpurpose.
So if it's more of you know wehave seasonal festivals.
We have like Boys Day, girlsDay, you know, we have like
which is May 5th and March 3rd,or we also have like New Year's.
(16:45):
So in those cases maybe itcould be a little bit more
formal but the conversation canbe quite fluid.
But the rule is you don't wantto talk too much about work or
politics or your personalmatters, because we put that
outside the tea room and we havegathered to enjoy more of the
(17:07):
present moment.
And it's not about kind ofworldly talks.
You know, it's not like goingto the usual coffee house or tea
house to chat over what you sawon television or you know,
because that is something noteveryone can relate.
But if we eat the same food andyou notice something, we have a
(17:32):
more shared experience thesensations you feel, the smell
of the incense, what's happeningin the present moment, and
these things then we can sharewith the guests.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Nice.
So it sounds like it's anopportunity to almost escape the
outside world and then bepresent and appreciate obviously
the meal, the tea, but also thecompany of friends or guests
without too much stress.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
I'm sure there's no gossiping or arguing yeah, so it
is really, uh, I would, I wouldcall it a temporary retreat
from the hustle and bustle ofbusy life and, you know, I guess
you can call it as a way todisconnect from all these uh
stressful things, um, becauseagain it is a meditation, um,
(18:27):
and it's a way to groundyourself and try to kind of, we
say, be normal.
It's a normalization process soyou can really enjoy things
with true eyes and then yourrole as the cha jin.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
You're there to serve the guests and obviously you
prepare.
A lot of preparation would gointo a tea event and then during
the cha ji or the cha kai, youdon't actually eat or drink.
So is that just that concept ofomotenashi like Japanese
service, and is there anyalternative?
Do sometimes tea practitionersshare tea with their guests?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So, as you say, the host usually is just serving and
we don't drink tea or eat thefood, or I mean we don't eat in
the same tea room, we usuallyjust eat at the back.
So this is kind of, we sayyin-yang relationship.
So when the host is serving,the guest is receiving.
It's a yin-yang relationship.
So when the host is serving,the guest is receiving.
(19:31):
As the host is active, theguest is passive.
It's kind of an interestingpractice.
But sometimes I think, when welook at it in a more historical
view you know it was practicedamong the samurai lords and
there is a lot of hierarchy andyour guest could be a lord and
you just don't want to bedisrespectful.
(19:52):
You would say, oh, I will eatat the back just to show respect
and you just be a kind of aserver.
But we also have a kind of aShinto aspect.
I believe that we are offeringthe meal and the tea to the kami
within the guest.
So kami is this idea of aspirit.
So we say the spirits visit youand you offer them sake and
(20:17):
food and you want them to stay.
So that's why you purify theroom, make it clean, so the
guests are in fact kind of likea visiting kami.
So that's why we would servethem, but we would not eat in
the same space.
But sometimes, you know, theguest would offer us tea, you
know, and the guest would say,oh, please join, and then we
(20:39):
would accept the offering.
So we would make tea forourselves, or sometimes the
guests would prepare tea for us.
So really, case by case itdepends.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
So I imagine Achaji with all the food and even tea
itself is, I mean, good qualitytea is quite expensive.
So if you're inviting guests,is there some expectation they
offer a donation or contribution?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I feel it's, um, because you know it's really
inviting your intimate friends.
So the idea is the guests will,uh, invite you.
So it's kind of, you know, giveand take.
But I think the idea is it'smore kind of for your own
personal practice.
So it's not being, it's notlike a restaurant, you know,
(21:26):
it's not like you're servingthem, but you are, you want to
practice, and you're kind ofasking the guests to come and
use their time, cause you know,we know everyone is so busy and
we say, oh, thank you for comingand thank you for participating
in my practice.
But of course, some guests, youknow they, they feel they want
(21:48):
to give back.
So some would maybe wrap somefee or they would maybe bring
some gifts, you know.
But I think what's important isyou shouldn't expect any kind
of payment because you know youare really it's more about
giving and offering and for yourown practice.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I see.
So what about with regard tolearning tea?
What kind of relationship isthat?
It almost sounds like it's anapprenticeship, but would you be
paying your teacher to learn?
Because I'm sort of wonderingoh, you're a tea practitioner,
how do you make a living fromthat?
So there are different cases.
It really depends on how theteacher wants to do.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
But I think originally this know there are
different cases, it reallydepends on how the teacher wants
to do, but I think originallyyou know this was not a source
of income.
So the past tea masters, youknow their main job is a samurai
or a merchant, you know theyhave their own business and the
tea is just kind of a morespiritual practice and they
(22:51):
would teach students.
But you know it's not liketheir main source of income.
But of course nowadays thereare tea teachers dedicated to
just teaching and it's kind of amonthly fee.
So in Rasenke there is kind ofa standard that you pay monthly
to the student, pays to the teateacher.
(23:13):
But I guess you know in the endit's really up to each teacher
how they want to cover theexpenses or you know how they
want to live with it.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
And are you finding this is an assumption?
Obviously, you mentionedearlier less Japanese drinking
tea and obviously, learning tea,but there seems to be also
interest from foreigners wantingto learn chado.
So is that the case?
There's more interest recentlyfrom foreigners and less from
(23:45):
Japanese themselves.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
So I'm not really sure about the actual numbers of
Japanese students.
So you know, of course theJapanese population in general
is decreasing and much of thetea students are elder people.
You know, in my grandmother'sgeneration it was very popular,
but in my father's generationnot as much.
(24:08):
But at least in Kyoto we have alot of universities and usually
they have a kind ofafter-school tea club, so they
have.
You know, at least one biguniversity has like 300 tea
students.
I think that's a big number.
But of course you know, whenthey graduate and once they
start working in Tokyo, maybethey might not continue.
(24:31):
So there is growing interestabroad and Urasenkei always has
branches outside in differentcountries.
So I don't know if that'sincreasing, but for sure there
are more people drinking matchanow.
And the interest for matcha teais uh growing, but I think that
(24:54):
doesn't mean there's interest inthis so-called japanese way of
tea, or uh tea ceremony.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah now I can get a I think it's a chai matcha latte
at my local cafes.
Not sure of the quality of theactual matcha, but I do recall a
previous podcast guest sharingwith me that girls would learn
was it the golden triangle orsomething they would learn chado
(25:23):
, chodo and kado, likecalligraphy, flower arrangement
and tea ceremony and I think Itold you when we spoke, my
father makes much a jowl.
So tea ceremony bowls, yeah,and I think in the 70s and 80s
lots of demand, but now likevery little demand and they've
(25:45):
had to focus on making differentcups, like you know me, and
even cups for export to china,because it's not a thing every
young girl does now anymore yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
I think again in my grandmother's generation she
told me it was a must to learnif you want to, let's say, be a
be seen as educated, or like agood housewife, let's say that
you must know how to do teaflowers.
You know, wear the kimono.
It's kind of basic.
But I think now that kind ofstandard has disappeared, which
(26:22):
I feel is you know, it's okay, Imean, it's a trend, it changes
and I think now post-pandemicpeople are more interested in
the spirit and not about kind ofmanners or you know, like, how
to wear a kimono, but they'remore interested in about this
mindfulness practice and how itmakes one present.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
On that theme of being present or spirit, there
is a yoji jukugo, so a characterword that articulates, I guess,
the principles of tea, and Iremember reading this in a book
and then first thinking, oh,this is hard to say, so it's
what case?
A jack, and this is a reallyimportant principle of tea, so
(27:05):
would you like to touch on it?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Yes.
So we often say there are fourprinciples of Chan-O-Yu.
So we say Wa.
Wa means harmony, kei meansrespect, sei means purity, jaku
means tranquility.
So Wa, kei, sei, jaku so Wa.
(27:29):
This idea of harmony isoriginally.
There are differentinterpretations, but one could
say it comes from Taoism, andTaoism is about being in harmony
with nature.
You know they practice in themountains.
But when we say being inharmony with nature, it doesn't
mean human versus nature, butit's also your inner nature.
(27:52):
Then next is Kei, respect.
So this is kind of Confucian.
Confucian is about, you know,we say respect the elders.
So we always bow in Japan.
So why do we respect elders?
It's because we assume theyhave more wisdom.
So this is bowing to wisdom.
So when you feel you havelearned something from someone,
(28:13):
we bow to say thank you.
So we can even bow to an objectif we feel you learned
something from the object.
So we would even bow to aflower.
We would bow to the utensilsbecause there's so much wisdom
in that.
You know the material and thetime it took to make it.
(28:34):
A lot of knowledge is there, sowe would even bow to the
utensils.
So this is a kei.
Next is a sei.
This is a purity.
So this comes from Shinto.
Shinto is our local religion,more kind of nature worship, and
if you go to the shrine youoften see in the morning they're
(28:54):
sweeping and cleaning so andusing water to cleanse your
hands and mouth.
So this is to purify your heart, your mind and heart from
worldly dust.
So we're always purifyingutensils and cleaning in the tea
room.
Finally, there's a jaku.
Jaku is tranquility.
(29:16):
This is kind of Buddhism andoften can be translated as
awareness or maybe you can sayenlightenment.
But when you have this wa keisei, naturally you become aware.
So this is kind of the fourprinciples often used to
(29:36):
describe Chan-o-yu.
But of course it's not justabout the tea but life in
general.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You can apply this to all aspects of your daily life
and that was my next questionhas the practice of tea and
deeply understanding thisconcept, all these concepts of
wa Keisei Jaku, does that reallyseep into other areas of your
life and does it help you staygrounded and stay, I guess,
(30:02):
having appreciation morethoughtful and considerate in a
sometimes very chaotic and crazyworld?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So I can only talk from experience.
But a very interesting thingthat happened to me is I was
having just ice cream at7-Eleven and it would always
come with kind of a plasticspoon.
So I was just eating my icecream from the cup and just
using the plastic spoon, but Iwas holding it in a way I would
(30:35):
do with my tea utensils.
So I was kind of carefullyholding this plastic spoon and
for the first time I realizedhow it was well made, very good
design.
So you know, I noticed whilethere must have been a lot of
prototypes and there must havebeen a lot of trial and error
and they came up with thisplastic spoon which doesn't, you
(30:59):
know, break so easily and it'seasy to scoop my ice cream.
And I've held the spoon many,many times before but usually I
never notice it, I just throw itaway before.
But usually I never notice it,I just throw it away.
And there are so many of thesesubtle things we don't notice.
But that is where there is alot of beauty and there's
(31:21):
actually a lot of wisdom.
And by practicing thediscerimony you start to become
aware of these things, theseinsignificant things in life.
But these insignificant thingsare equally important.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Something maybe somewhat related to that and
something I know you wanted totalk about is this idea of
non-verbal communication, whichI'm sure requires this presence
and this inner peace, I thinkthis urge not to talk or say or
repeat yourself which is socommon, I guess, in Western
(32:04):
cultures.
Like in the West we say theseuncomfortable silences, but I
think in Japan there are thesecomfortable silences which I'm
beginning to really enjoy, whichI try to remind myself when I'm
here in Australia.
So yeah, would you like to talkabout non-verbal communication
and its role in tea ceremony,but also maybe in life in
(32:28):
general in Japan?
Speaker 1 (32:29):
so this, this so-called nonverbal
communication, it's verydifficult to explain with words
because it is really throughexperience.
So you know, it's really likefeeling the same wind or the
breeze together.
When you are in the wilderness,maybe with a friend, and you
(33:01):
know, maybe you've been walkinga long time and you're tired,
and you and your friend justfind a nice spot to sit and you
feel a good breeze, summerbreeze, and both of you just
kind of say oh, you know, andthere's nothing more you need to
say because you both know youfelt that kind of comfortable
wind and it's same with, maybe,the feeling of warmth.
(33:22):
When you do, like a bonfire,you know people gather around
the fire and at some point, youknow, you just stop talking and
you're just kind of mesmerizedby the beauty of the fire, the
crackling of the sound, maybeyou notice the smoke going up,
making different kinds of shape,and a lot of these things are
(33:46):
beyond words and that is kind ofsomething that there is no
words to describe it.
So naturally there is thissilence, but we are still
communicating because weunderstand we both, or the
guests and the host, felt it.
But, as you say, in society, asyou mentioned, how does it apply
(34:08):
in society?
In society, uh, yeah, as you,as you mentioned, how does it
apply in society?
Um, I think it's kind of um.
We say kehai.
Kehai in japanese means kind ofread, read the, read the air.
So we say uh, read the air.
But I think it's kind of likewhen you see uh like uh chefs in
(34:32):
the kitchen and you know, theykind of know what's the next
next step.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
So naturally you don't need much talking and
everything is just big one oneuh, one body, yeah it's very
comforting once you begin tounderstand oh, I don't need to
state what's felt or what'sobvious, we're probably all
feeling or thinking the samething about this bonfire or the
(35:01):
beautiful reflection of a pondor the sound of rain.
Why spoil it with stating, oh,this bonfire is amazing, or just
, yeah, be present enough tofully enjoy it.
It's something I try toencourage guests who go to Japan
(35:24):
, like be mindful, like ifyou're in a restaurant and
you're saying, oh, this is sodelicious, you're kind of
breaking the harmony.
So sort of quietly appreciatewhat you experience and then
you'll probably enjoy it morebecause you'll be more present.
So I love that aspect.
It's something I really try toembrace and it's been very
(35:47):
helpful for me with difficultconversations or in groups.
I just kind of find myselfsitting back and being more of
an observer and then it gives metime to collect my thoughts and
then when I want to saysomething, I can say something
very measured, in control, notreactive or responsive.
So it's definitely hasbenefited me.
(36:11):
Embracing this idea of it usedto be holding back, but now I
feel like, oh, I'm not holdingback, I kind of want to relax.
So with that we should probablytalk about matcha and actually
I told my wife today I'minterviewing this interesting
guy who's a tea practitioner andI said is there any question?
You'd want me to ask him.
(36:32):
And she did say, oh, beinteresting to get his opinion
on what's happened to matcha,like it's being exported now.
I believe good quality matchais sort of hard to find now,
even in Japan.
So, as someone who practicestea ceremony and obviously you
want a very high grade of teawhat are your thoughts on
(36:55):
everything from you can go to?
I can go to my cafe now andprobably get a matcha smoothie
or a matcha chai latte, andmaybe it's harder for you to buy
matcha tea now and it'sprobably more expensive.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yes, as you say, there is a growing global demand
for matcha, even high qualitymatcha that we use for the tea
gatherings.
It's being taken, I guess.
And I mean, you know, I'm gladthat there is increasing
(37:31):
interest and I hope the teafarmers, you know they benefit
from all this.
But I think there is a lack ofunderstanding how to enjoy it,
because it's just consumed maybewith sweeteners and mixing into
.
You know, it's a flavor,basically, and you really don't
(37:53):
need such high quality matchafor a matcha latte, let's say,
because you know these teafarmers are trying so hard to
make tea which you can enjoy itwith just hot water, just
straight, and just to enjoy itas it is.
But the consumer, withoutunderstanding, just adds a lot
(38:15):
of things.
You can't really taste theoriginal flavor or how it's
meant to be tasted.
So you know, I think we justhave to know that there are
matcha which is good for mixingand there is matcha which is
more appropriate for drinkingstraight.
(38:35):
And as a tea practitioner, yes,I'm surprised it's difficult
even for us now to get matcha.
Of course we still can becausewe know the tea companies well
enough.
So we can, you know, becausethey keep for tea practitioners,
(38:55):
you know, with that there'salso a shortage of bamboo tea
whisks and other utensils andagain, it's okay.
But I think people need to knowyou don't want to use a bamboo
tea whisk for your lattes.
You know it's not meant formilk and it just ruins the whisk
much more quickly.
(39:17):
So you can use maybe some othermaterial whisk.
That's okay.
But I think from our side wehaven't been speaking out too
much and there isn't reallyaccess to real knowledge.
Unfortunately, people justwatch what's on the social media
(39:38):
and just think that's theproper way.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yes, we tend to.
I guess Western influenceeither adds a new angle or a
sort of modern take.
We are concerned to origin orpractice and in that process I
think, yeah, there is thisessence that's lost.
All this no understanding,there's not this full
(40:02):
understanding to appreciate it.
We just we don't.
Oh, matcha cool, make a lattewith it, make an ice cream with
it, add sweetener to it.
I guess one could argue.
There's a sort of pros and cons, but it kind of the essence of
tea of matcha is this idea toslow down.
It's always fascinating to seematcha whisk and the sound.
(40:26):
It's like this unique teathat's turned into a powder.
And yeah, how did this, thisevolution of serving tea, come
about?
From straining tea leaves toturning it, to drying it, to
turning it into a powder?
So I do have a question on thatwhy, how did it evolve?
Or how did japanese work outour tea?
(40:46):
This type of tea leaf is bestserved after it's dried and
essentially crunched into powderform.
What's the history behind that?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
there are, uh, ancient records, but again, tea
itself is not a native plant toJapan.
It's a type of camellia, it'scalled Camellia sinensis, and
this is said to have beenbrought together with Buddhism
because Buddhism also is not anative thing, of course.
(41:17):
Originally it comes from india,then it went to china and we
learned buddhism from ancientchina.
So, anyways, uh, when when teawas was brought into japan, this
method of powdered tea existed.
But they say it's not like theone we have now.
(41:38):
So the one we have now, thecolor is much more bright green
and this is a unique evolutionto Japanese, I guess, tea
farming technique.
So we shade the tea bush, weeven cut 90% of the sunlight and
(41:59):
what it does is the tea leavesstart to collect as much
sunlight so it starts to grow alittle bit more wide and soft
and that actually increases thechlorophyll and the other health
benefits actually increase.
So this was kind of, I guess,kind of experimental thing.
(42:23):
Which tea more soft, so thenit's easier to make it into fine
powder at the end and it hasthis more green color.
So that is the big differencebetween tea grown for matcha
it's growing in a shade, whereasregular green tea or sencha.
It just grows in the sun and westill kind of of course with
(42:48):
that.
Scientifically we do a lot ofresearch about what gives the
umami.
Umami is kind of a taste.
It's kind of like a salty taste, I guess, but it's a taste
described for often like kombubroth, like seaweed broth.
So green tea has a lot of umamiand this is due to the amino
(43:14):
acid increase of amino acid.
So the farmers try to make thesoil more adapting to this
certain, to bring out thisflavor.
So I think these are really theunique points in Japanese tea
growing this kind of shadingtechnique and this idea of umami
(43:37):
and this idea of umami.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
And is it true, the brighter the powder, the
brighter the grain, the betterquality it is, or it's assumed.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
So I think we have to be careful because there's a
trend in this tea world and thiskind of bright green trend.
One farmer said it justdeveloped in the 70s and in the
70s tea kind of was marketed forits bright green color.
I think you know now people arelooking for the more organic
and not really talking aboutthis kind of color.
(44:18):
So the system is how we judgethe quality of tea is really
based on color, smell and taste.
So it's really that currentqualification color is very
important, but that doesn'treally mean it has the most
health benefit, because thatreally also depends on the soil
(44:40):
quality and other elements.
But I think for us teapractitioners it's really about
the health benefits, becausewe're offering medicine to the
guests.
And for me, this type of qualitymatcha a fresh matcha has a
(45:02):
high level of L-theanine.
So L-theanine, it makes onecalm and it kind of also helps
deal with anxiety.
So this is important becausethat is why the Zen monks have
matcha, because they feel morerelaxed and that assists
(45:25):
meditation.
Of course we also know matchahas the antioxidants, so-called
EGCG.
So I think that's why there's amatcha craze worldwide, because
people want these antioxidants.
But again, this is only in thefresh matcha leaves.
It's not in the matcha sweets.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
So, wow, people probably should be drinking
matcha in the morning instead ofcoffee.
What about the shelf life ofmatcha?
So when you acquire matcha, howlong is it good for?
Speaker 1 (46:00):
So what is recommended by tea producers is,
if it's first of all, matcha isvery weak against temperature
and oxygen because it oxidizesvery quickly, so you want to
keep it in the refrigerator.
So it doesn't do well in roomtemperature.
(46:21):
So always keep it in therefrigerator, not in the freezer
.
And again, if it's unopened,you can leave it for one year, I
would say.
But once it's opened, you wantto consume it relatively quick
because again, it's somethingraw and fresh.
So you know you want to keep itin the airtight can, but once
(46:42):
it's opened, maybe you want toconsume it within one month.
You know, one or two months, Iguess.
Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
All right, I'll keep that in mind.
My wife's trying to buy somegood quality matcha and she's
waiting on a shipment, so it'shard to get here in Melbourne.
So, dairiku, you recommendedthe book of tea by Kakuzo
Okakura, and it was firstpublished in 1906.
(47:18):
It's a short but dense book andI'd like to quote from it.
Great as has been the influenceof the tea masters in the field
of art, it is nothing comparedto what they have exerted on the
conduct of life, not only inthe usage of polite society, but
also in the arrangement of alldomestic duties.
(47:39):
Do we feel the presence of teamasters?
Many of our delicate dishes, aswell as our way of serving food
, are their inventions.
They have taught us to dressonly in garments of sombre
colours.
They have instructed us in theproper spirit with which to
approach flowers.
They have emphasized ournatural love of simplicity and
(48:04):
shown us the beauty of humility.
In fact, through theirteachings, tea has entered the
life of the people.
So that's quite amazing.
Is this your hope as a teapractitioner to have this
influence?
Speaker 1 (48:26):
your hope, as a tea practitioner, to have this
influence.
So I read this book of tea whenI was 19 years old, when I
first began the tea practice,and of course at that time I
desired to, you know, spreadthis art of tea or art of life.
But now I've've been doing itfor many, many years.
I'm 37 now and I think for meit's not really about spreading
(48:49):
it, but just setting a goodexample and just kind of doing
what is for me right and nottrying to over over exaggerate
things.
And I think if people areinterested, you know they can
come and experience.
But I feel I shouldn't try tobe like a preaching, you know.
(49:11):
So, yes, that is my currentthought.
Speaker 2 (49:15):
And what do you hope that people will get out of the
experience of tea with you?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
so you know many people who visit me enjoy the
quietness, especially nowbecause you know kyoto is just
crazy with so many visitors forthe cherry blossoms and
everywhere you go.
You know you can't really findthe the quietness.
But when they come you knowthey really feel this, they feel
(49:42):
maybe safe and that they feelthere is, it's okay to be as
they like, there's no need toact and I usually call it the
state of happy boring.
So you're kind of bored buthappy.
There's no need to expectanything, there's no need to
(50:05):
desire anything, and again, justto be present and enjoy a
simple cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
So, as you know, this podcast deals with ikigai and
there's this irony to theconcept of ikigai in that
Japanese really don't mentionthe word that often.
It's usually something veryprivate, they probably don't
even really think about it thatmuch.
And then in the West it'sbecome very popular and sort of
associated to finding your onelife purpose or your dream job
(50:37):
or your bliss.
Yet it's also a concept ofstudy in Japan and there are
many papers that measure ikigaiand describe it.
They try to understand it inthe context of, you know, the
elderly university students.
So it is also an area ofresearch and study, and I'm
(51:00):
writing a book, a second book,on ikigai, and I asked about 30
Japanese to share you know whattheir ikigai is, knowing it's a
little bit of an unusualquestion.
So I got some people saying, oh, I really can't answer it, to
some people finding it very easyto answer, and actually one man
(51:22):
said, oh, it's learning tea.
I really enjoy the time I spendlearning tea, and now my son's
also joining me to learn tea aswell.
So it's a very.
It was, yeah, sounded like avery important source of Ikigai
to him.
You've been doing this for along time, and so my question is
do you think one can experienceikigai in a bowl of?
Speaker 1 (51:45):
tea.
Yes, so, as you mentioned theword ikigai, you know I don't
come across it so much inJapanese language, so from my
perspective it's kind of it'snot.
It doesn't have a cleardefinition, because ikiru means
to live.
You know, like you feel alive.
(52:07):
You know, that's how I wouldinterpret it.
For me, this idea of you feelalive is basically, you know,
same as uh, aware and beingpresent.
Because I think you know when weare maybe doing something, uh,
(52:27):
which is not with uh, enjoyment,let's say, or you know it's,
it's, it's not really uh, youknow you don't want to do it,
but I think I don't know if youcan feel ikigai in a bowl of tea
(52:50):
.
But we say you know puttingaside all expectations and you
know putting aside all desiresand just kind of feeling
yourself.
You know how do you feel andit's, I think, a time to
self-contemplate andself-reflect.
(53:10):
So it's kind of a very personaltime, it's not to chat about
worldly things and I thinkgiving that uh moment to
yourself, one can feel that youare alive and maybe helps you
feel ikigai.
But I guess you know this isvery, very difficult because the
(53:34):
word is so catchy, just like,uh, the word Zen is catchy and
it kind of has so manyassumptions what it is and that
creates expectations.
And that's why we say it'sdifficult to transmit this,
(53:55):
because people, their mind, isalready full of ideas of what
this is so first.
That's why we say empty yourcup.
You first have to empty allpre-assumptions and then you can
really enjoy the tea as it is.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Yeah, that reminds me of the concept of beginner mind
to go back to that state whereyou were open to learning, but
also that you had the desire tolearn and there's no assumption
now that, oh, I know enough, Idon't really need to learn this
again.
And so I guess that takesawareness, like, oh, I'm going
(54:37):
to put aside my assumptions,what I know, and be present to
learn again.
And so, speaking of learning,would you like to tell us about
Totosha?
Is that correct?
So I imagine that's a place oflearning.
Speaker 1 (54:53):
Yes, totosha is the name of my tea house and it is a
place to learn and toexperience, so it's where I
teach my students about what wewere kind of talking about, and
it's basically situated ontemple grounds.
(55:15):
It's on Daitokuji.
Daitokuji is a Zen Buddhisttemple.
You know.
Right across we have historicaltea rooms where tea masters
have and also samurai lords havebeen doing tea, so I've been
(55:36):
here since 2013.
It's also a place for my ownpractice, but it's basically
open to anyone who is curious.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Well, I'm curious, so I'd definitely like to meet you
and maybe experience tea atTotosha.
Another way that just came tomind was Ibasho.
So would Totosha, or even aChashitsu, be like an Ibasho for
you, where you can just beyourself?
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yes, ibasho is, I think, for me, the tea room is
Ibasho for the tea practitioner.
But we would often say it's anextension of of your body.
I would say it's kind of likethe secret base that, as kids
you know, we would make a treehouse or make a secret base
(56:33):
using cardboard boxes orwhatever you know.
So it's kind of a place thatyou can be yourself and feel
comfortable.
It's also your own littlecosmic world.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Nice.
Well, I'd love to visit yourcosmic world, so how can people
contact you?
Speaker 1 (56:58):
So I mean you can of course always look up my name
and look up Totosha.
I mean I don't have a webpageor anything, so somehow people
who are searching find me.
So yeah, if you keep onsearching, we might meet.
Speaker 2 (57:17):
That is a frustration .
I'm finding it's very hard tocontact crafts people or priests
, and then the most unlikelyplace seems to be Instagram.
So I'm glad I sent you thatmessage on Instagram because I
was thinking there's no way thisguy's going to reply.
He's probably not even lookingat his Instagram.
(57:39):
You reply very quickly.
So thank you for replying andthank you for sharing your time
with me.
So that's Dairiku Amai, so Imight spell it out.
So it's D-A-I-R-I-K and thenA-M-A-E.
We'll put a link to yourInstagram page in the show notes
(58:04):
and thank you so much for yourtime.
And, yes, I'd love toexperience tea with you, daeriku
, in Kyoto.
Speaker 1 (58:13):
Yes, thank you very much, so I look forward to
serving you tea in Kyoto.
Speaker 2 (58:20):
Wonderful.
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