February 20, 2025 • 46 mins
Where does life lead us?
Life is a journey, and with the right guidance, it can steer us toward our true calling.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Martin Krafft about his transition from a life at sea to professional training and coaching.
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Martin Kraft.
A master mariner by trainingand a seasoned senior executive,
martin brings over two decadesof experience in building
cohesive, high-performing teamsacross three continents, and
(00:37):
also through diverse cultures Atone of France's leading
business schools, where heteaches the elective leadership,
career values and purpose.
Together with his students, heexplores profound questions
about what constitutes a lifeworth living, and he is an
(00:58):
accredited associate certifiedcoach by the International
Coaching Federation, icf.
Welcome to the podcast, martin.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, Nick thanks a lot for having me, and of course
, it's a bit of a change.
We've been knowing each otherfor some time through the
program, but I'm super happy tomeet you on this format and in
this context.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So am I.
I was looking forward to this,and this will be a different
episode.
I think it's going to be morecasual, more open, and we always
have these wonderfuldiscussions, so I'm sure we'll
have a wonderful discussion onthis episode.
So let's start with a bit ofbackground.
Would you like to share some ofyour past?
(01:40):
I know it's been quite ajourney.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, with pleasure.
So I was born and raised inGermany into fairly modest
family circumstances and if Itoday look at my 13-year-old son
, I recognize this kind oflaissez-faire of the youth,
right?
It's almost like that youthfulme which is playful and joyful
and doesn't care about a lot ofthings, and that changed at the
age of 14 in my case.
You know, is playful and joyfuland doesn't care about a lot of
(02:04):
things, right?
And that changed at the age of14 in my case.
That's what I normally refer toas my first awakening.
For various circumstances, Iended up at a British sailing
school and that reallyprofoundly changed my life.
There I really found my calling.
So from that day onwards, from14 years old onwards, I didn't
(02:26):
want to become an astronaut orrocket scientist or something.
I wanted to become a ship'scaptain.
And so I went to sea at the ageof 19.
I sailed around the globe oncontainer ships, tankers and
square riggers, and then Iobtained my Master Mariner's
license and that sort of kickedoff then a whole sequence of
events and it suddenly triggeredmy curiosity because I'd
(02:50):
learned how to steer ships.
But then I didn't understand whywere these ships going from
where they came from to wherethey went, and so only one way
to figure it out I thoughtthat's starting business.
In starting business, Irealized okay, now I understand
why nations trade, how nationstrade, how companies operate,
and I've understood a little bitabout the legal context in
(03:11):
which they operate, but I didn'tfully understand it.
So one way to figure it out isto study law, which I did.
So with all that, my careerreally took off beyond my
wildest dreams and it was ajourney, journey which was just
amazing, and 10 years ago Imoved to Montreal, quebec,
canada, together with my family,and I really found my happy
(03:33):
place here, despite the freezingcold outside these days Minus
20 degrees today.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That is cold.
Well, there you go, Thank you.
So that's yeah, that's quite ajourney Several countries and
obviously a lot of time spent onships.
So I'm curious, what is amaster mariner?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
a master mariner essentially has a driver's
license for ships, right?
So we are navigating officersin the merchant navy, so a
master mariner is somebody who'sresponsible to drive a ship and
to do he's responsible for theship, its crew and the cargo to
safely and sustainable transportgoods from a to b and connect
(04:16):
continents in peaceful trade.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Essentially, there you go and you do have a love
for sailing and you are goingthrough a transition which I've
learned about for the past yearor so.
So, yes, you've gone throughthis career change, among other
things, and that's what broughtus together.
You took my Higai Coachcertification, so essentially
(04:38):
you told me you were retiring,but really you were
transitioning.
So what has that transitionbeen?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, it's interesting how words make
meaning, right.
So, in my case, when I turned50, which was November last year
I transitioned into what Iwould call the new chapter of my
life, right, the currentchapter.
And that in itself is a journeywhich had its roots at a very
unlikely place, and that isHarvard Business School.
As I had sort of touched onalready until 2020, I enjoyed
(05:09):
this corporate career withamazing opportunities both for
my personal and professionalgrowth and finally, after 16
years of wanting to go, I wasfinally able to participate in a
Harvard Business School programwhich is called a general
management program.
The general management programat Harvard Business School is
supposed to transform subjectmatter experts into general
(05:32):
managers, so it's really atransformative transition with a
goal to be leaders, to be CEOsand the like.
But then the most amazing thinghappened during my stint there.
I realized that, instead ofcontinuously pursuing higher,
faster, more, I sort of calmeddown and I really I started
(05:52):
arriving at myself.
And then, of course because itwas 2020, right.
So we're talking about themiddle of the COVID pandemic,
with all the uncertainty and allthe opportunities that were
there and that really triggeredfor me a journey of humbling, of
easing up, relaxing and lettinggo and, frankly speaking, after
all these amazing opportunitiesin my life, I really had this
(06:15):
desire, still have this desireof wanting to give back to
society and with that I reallycame up with the concept of this
transition, which is sort of ona foundation, and that
foundation are my loved ones,and on that foundation of my
loved ones rest three pillars,and these three pillars are
coaching, teaching and sailing.
So essentially, in Ikigai lingowe could talk about my azubigai
(06:40):
sources, those which make mylife worth living, and that is
what I've put into practice.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
At the end of last year, Well, I would venture to
say there might even be a fourthpillar, which is learning.
You seem to be a student oflife and I think you will be,
for life, always eager to learnand grow, and I also think you
love applying what you learn,which I've seen.
So, yeah, why do you have thisinsatiable appetite to learn
(07:09):
more, when you could just think,hey, I've done it, I'm retiring
young, I could just relax and,uh, do nothing, or just sail the
seas and and have no desire tocontinue learning.
But you do.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Well, nick, you don't go easy with your questions, do
you?
I mean, this is something I'vebeen thinking about that really
deep and long and I came up withtwo whys why I am a lifelong
learner.
So the first one is rooted infamily.
That is sort of my grandfatherand my mother and their heritage
.
They both had amazing talentsin their lives but they didn't
(07:47):
have the opportunity to livethem.
So my grandfather, when he was14 years old, he was sent down
into a coal mine and my mother,at 14 years old, was told you
know, you don't need to gofurther to school, even though
you want to, because you're justa girl, you're a woman, you'll
get married and that's it,that's your life, end of the
story.
So that's it, that's your life,end of the story.
So that's really one source ofmy whys.
(08:07):
The other source is the parableof the talents in the Bible.
You know, the responsible useof one's abilities, resources
and gifts.
And look, by unbelievable luckand coincidence, I was born at a
time and in a location where Ireally perceived the unlimited
(08:27):
opportunities, and maybe youremember we had this one session
in our Ikigai group where I hadthis Eureka moment when I
realized that I don't only havethe opportunity to engage my
talent, but that I've reallyI've got this perceived
obligation to make best use ofmy talents and not to talk with
the Bible, not just to bury themin the ground as in the parable
(08:47):
.
So these, really, these are mytwo whys and I feel to that
degree that I'm doing justice tomyself and I'm doing justice to
my ancestors.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I love it.
Yeah, I really enjoyed ourcohort with Veronica and the
conversations we had and, yeah,every time we talk you seem to
reveal something or uncoversomething that really fascinates
me.
So you're moving on to one ofthese pillars.
You mentioned coaching.
You are an experienced coach.
(09:20):
How would you define coachingand what is your role as a coach
?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So I guess the ICF, where I'm accredited, would want
me to say that coaching isabout something like giving the
client agency and autonomy tothink carefully and take actions
based on reflection.
Okay, that's what they wouldwant me to say.
My amazing teacher and mastercoach, jim Gavin, said once
(09:48):
coaching is what coaches do andhonestly, I think both those
definitions hold truth.
I mean, the first one has allthe buzzwords, right, but most
importantly, it results inaction, and I think that's what
coaching is about.
It is to affect change, whichchanges life, which changes
outcome.
But then also, jim Gavin'sdefinition of coaching is what
(10:10):
coaches do affords thisflexibility and the space for
coach and coachee to show up intheir humanity, in their
individuality, as responsibleselves.
For me, as far as I'm concerned,as a coach, how do I see my
role?
Well, I like this metaphor ofwalking a bit of the way
together.
Right, that in coaching there'sthis walking between coach and
(10:31):
coachee.
But as a coach, I'm notcarrying my coachee's burden and
I'm not taking the decisionsfor them.
Right, I'm not there to comfortthem.
I'm there with them, but as Ifound at some stage by Rumi, the
13th century poet and scholar.
He said it's your road, andyours alone.
Others may walk it with you,but no one can walk it for you,
(10:54):
and I think that is the essenceof coaching and that is my
current definition of my role asa coach.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Love it, love it.
I think I want to get somecoaching from you now.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
And that's the beauty of it, right, nick?
That we always we show up asstudents and teachers at the
same time.
And this traditional sort ofdifferentiation into roles I
think it doesn't hold true forme anymore.
I learned so much from my kids,I learned so much from my
elders.
We've got all theseopportunities and we can be both
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, I love that idea.
It's a collaborative, sharedexperience, and sometimes you
don't even need to find theanswers, you just explore all
these other opportunities orpossibilities, and I think
that's very much aligned toIkigai and also what we
experienced in our cohort, whichwe'll touch on later.
(11:51):
But with your work also comesleadership.
So what about leadership?
What makes a great leader,especially in this time of
radical change with technology,ai and you know, the way we've
worked, or the way we work now,has radically changed since, you
(12:11):
know, 20 years ago.
Yeah, so, yeah, what are yourthoughts on all that?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So in my work at Schema Business School in Lille,
france, I discussed with mystudents that leadership is all
about the people.
It's the responsibility for theperformance of a group of
people right, so for that youneed two things you need to
influence others and you need tomake a difference in what they
do, and the thoughts and thefeelings which are driving the
(12:39):
actions.
From there on, we often land atthe three imperatives, as I
call them, which make a greatleader.
And in my definition, in myworld, a great leader needs to
be able to manage themselves,manage their network and lead
their team.
So these are the threeimperatives.
And from the imperatives we thenmove on to what I call the
(13:02):
three questions of value-basedleadership, which are deeply
important to me.
And there number one is how doothers experience me and
themselves in my presence?
The second one is what role doI play in the performance or the
underperformance of others?
And the third question youshould ask yourself as a
value-based leader is how muchsuffering are you willing to
(13:25):
accept that somebody else goesthrough for your own benefit?
And you alluded to that justbefore you asked me this
question.
It's about the questions.
For me, most of the learnings.
Most of realizations are not inthe answers.
We find them in the questions,and that maybe to sum it up.
(13:46):
For me, leadership is reallyagain as we talked about in the
court, it's Shantosuru.
Yeah, things should be doneproperly, properly.
Leadership should be doneproperly.
Working with people should bedone properly.
Leadership should be doneproperly.
Working with people should bedone properly, chantosuru.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You're an outstanding student, martin, so you've
pulled out Asobi Gai, so thesethings we consider play or
leisure activities worthengaging in.
And now Chantosuru to do thingsproperly.
So I love it.
I do like this idea of how doyou manage yourself that you
just mentioned, and that'sprobably I mean.
(14:26):
Without that, you can't reallydo what follows, and this is
probably where most peoplestruggle in life.
People struggle in life.
They can't manage themselves.
They can't manage their mind,their behaviors.
They turn to vices alcohol,cigarettes, excessive
(14:48):
entertainment to get through theday.
So would you have any advice on?
You know, how does one gainmore control of their mind or
their impulses so they makebetter decisions?
That then enables them toeither live a more meaningful
life or a more successful life,or fulfilling life.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I think all work and all development really starts
with breathing and your body, ofbeing with yourself, of being
in sync with yourself, of notfinding yourself through others
seeking for yourself and theanswers in social media or
caring about what others thinkof you.
(15:35):
I think the biggest advice Ihave to give is get comfortable
with yourself.
It's amazing how difficult thathas become, with all the noise
around us and distractionsaround the clock, always at our
disposal, and yet people aremore lonely than they've ever
(15:56):
been in my experience.
And yet people are more lonelythan they've ever been in my
experience.
And I think for that to happen,you really need to get
comfortable with yourself.
In order to get comfortablewith yourself, I think there's
the approaches of breathing, ofyoga, of spending time with
yourself, of being consciousabout yourself.
So that's the best piece ofadvice which I could be giving
(16:17):
Before you try to getcomfortable with others, give
yourself an opportunity, giveyourself a hug and get
comfortable with yourself.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Nice, you seem to be combining two elements of
self-acceptance and self-care,and we often struggle to accept
ourselves and we often don'tallow self-care.
We're not worthy of it.
Yeah, I love it.
I love, yeah, get comfortablewith who you are, and I mean,
(16:48):
that's so true.
I think once you can acceptyourself or be comfortable with
who you are, you then seem tohave the compassion and space to
be patient and comfortable withother people, more
understanding.
So it does start from the self.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, and I think if you don't nurture that seat in
yourself, right, if you don'ttake good care of yourself, how
could you reasonably expect,without burning out, that you
could care for others?
I don't think it works.
And maybe at the surface, maybefor a certain period of time,
but without nurturing that innerchild in us and that person who
we truly are, I think it wouldbe ludicrous to think that we
(17:29):
could do something for the restof the world.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
I agree.
I think eventually, yeah, youburn out.
Or perhaps because it's notreally authentic, or you're sort
of being disingenuous, peoplewill find out, they'll know hang
on, you're not really livingthis.
It's not working for us anymore.
So, yeah, you've got to walkthe talk, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Exactly and, if I may , on that one, I think human
beings have a developed sensefor authenticity.
We do feel it there's somesensor which is sort of between
all our other senses that werealize with others when not, we
think they're authentic.
But quite often we seem to belacking that self-control and
(18:16):
that self-adjustment forourselves, that awareness when
we are really authentic.
And then you try to gloss overat the corners and you don't
want to let yourself shinethrough, instead of being open,
honest and loving and caringwith and for yourself.
And I think that is really achallenge which I'm experiencing
in my work and in my life.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Wonderful.
Yeah, I think we experiencedthat in our cohort and we had
this cozy cohort with thewonderful Veronica, and you both
embraced, you know, all thesefacets of Ikigai and this led to
some amazing discussions andshared insights.
So how was that experience foryou, let's say, compared to
(19:01):
other types of training orprograms you've done in the past
?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Well, it was great.
What else do you want me to sayother than it was amazing?
What an amazing experience.
But, nick, in all seriousnessit was.
But what made it great was so,first of all, the thinking time
which we had together.
But I had thinking time withothers in other contexts, but
the thinking time and thequality of the thinking time
(19:27):
which we had together in thecohort was amazing, was
outstanding.
Then you, as sort of thefacilitator of our learning.
Then you, as sort of thefacilitator of our learning, you
equipped us with vocabulary andtools to describe what we were
experiencing.
Right, we were able to uncovertogether things which happened
and you helped us and guided usalong the path of thinking which
(19:52):
has been there in the past overthousands of years.
And so suddenly we didn't feelalone.
Yeah, we were a small cohortwith our facilitator, but
suddenly we stood in the contextof heritage, right Then, for
sure, the intimacy and thevulnerability between us which
we were able to exhibit honestlyfrom session one was amazing.
(20:13):
I mean, we met online, we werespread across the globe, but
from the first encounter we werethere together and we didn't
shy away from ourselves and fromeach other.
And if I look at what the workwhich was done with the Kamiya
questions, for instance, thestuff that really matters.
When you ask yourself, in thepresence of others, in what ways
(20:35):
is my life worth living?
In the presence of others, inwhat ways is my life worth
living, or why do I deserve toexist, hell, it doesn't get more
foundational than that, itdoesn't get more intimate than
that.
And that is what we've doneright.
And to be able to discuss thesequestions in the cohort.
That sort of fostered my hopein humanity and human mankind
and, at the end of the day,really, with all the work which
(20:56):
we've done together in thecohort, it created this.
And at the end of the day,really, with all the work which
we've done together in thecohort, it created this tribal
belonging at the end of the day.
So there's really this sense ofokay, we went through this
together.
It was a transformationalexperience.
Now we landed here and weformed this bond between us
together.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Thank you.
It is about a sense ofbelonging and connection
together.
Thank you.
It is about a sense ofbelonging and connection, and
every cohort is unique and oftenvery special in different ways.
But, yeah, we really kicked itoff with a lot of trust and
vulnerability and it seemed tofly by and there's always this
kind of not sadness ordisappointment, but it's when a
(21:37):
cohort ends I'm like, oh wow,we're not going to continue this
experience anymore.
So clearly very valuable for mepersonally and I'm still amazed
I get to do this and connectwith people all over the world
and I'm often learning just asmuch or even more from the
cohorts I have this privilege tofacilitate on this amazing
(22:03):
concept and word, but all theseother relatable concepts tied to
Ikigai.
So, yeah, my work is quiteunique and special and I'm glad
I was able to share that withyou.
Special and I'm glad I was ableto share that with you and, as
I mentioned before, you reallyembraced these ideas of Ikigai
(22:24):
and you've done a lot ofcoaching and coach training.
So now that you've you knowyou've had time probably to
process most of it start playingwith some of these concepts.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
How does it fit into the picture now?
Well, let me assume for asecond that you would kick me
immediately off your podcast ifI were to say that I find it
very useful that I've got a Venndiagram with pictures of what
you love, what you're good at,what you maybe paid for and what
the world needs.
So let's take that for a factfor a moment, that that is a
no-go area for this podcast, andit shouldn't be anyway, exactly
(23:04):
.
But, um, look, I think what,what our work has created
together, is another tool in thetoolbox, or well, frankly, it's
another toolbox.
It's another toolbox which iscompatible with the other
approaches, which and structureswhich I'm using in my work,
which is, along, reflectiveinquiry and awareness training,
and for me, it's really theresult of the ikigai coaching.
(23:27):
Training was was a way ofthinking or maybe even better, a
way of being, and what I findso cherishable about the entire
concept is really it wasdeveloped again over thousands
of years by generations ofteachers and practitioners and
it's available to all of us.
It's there, it's out there,it's ours to use and ours to
deploy for the betterment of allof us, and that is really how
(23:50):
it sort of fits into my, myentire portfolio yeah, I love
your enthusiasm You're justalways enthusiastic about this
concept and other concepts andlearning sharing.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
But I do recall the day we met in Japan.
We happened to be in Japan atthe same time and I was sick as
a dog and I thought, oh, what amI going to do?
I've got to hide this sicknessand meet this guy and try and
come across as full of energy.
And, yeah, it was great to meetyou and your partner.
(24:26):
And then, I think later youshared with me that maybe your
partner and yourself wereskeptical to some degree about
the presence of ikigai in Japanbecause of what you saw in Tokyo
.
And it was only when youtraveled outside the major
cities did you see ikigai in thelives of Japanese.
(24:49):
So do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
yeah.
So first of all, I can vouchfor it that when you are sick as
a dog, you still functionperfectly fine and you know your
croissant and your coffee.
So that's all, tick the box,done, great.
So I've been a frequent visitorto rural Japan over a decade,
right, and I always love thetranquility, the beauty of the
(25:14):
nature, the cleanliness, thededication of the people and the
raison d'être.
So one instance, right, becauseI've been traveling a lot to
the south.
So there was always a taxidriver picking me up on my last
day to return me to FukuokaAirport, right, and that taxi
driver, of course, would alwaysshow up in his taxi driver cap,
in his taxi driver uniform, witha neatly tied tie and in an
(25:39):
impeccable taxi which seemed tobe from at least one century ago
, maybe more, um, but you knowwith these how you call these
knitted sort of mats which werearound it to protect the entire
thing.
So this building of art aroundit and his showing up in, I'm
proud because I'm a taxi driverand I drive you to your
(26:00):
destination safely and that ismy role.
That's actually the first timewhere I came across Ikigai.
Now let's talk about Tokyo for asecond.
That's a different, that's adifferent city, that's a
different country, that's maybea different universe altogether.
Right and uh, for for mypartner it was the first time in
(26:21):
japan, it was the first time intokyo for her, and in the
mornings, you know, we weregenerally jet lagged the first
couple of mornings and we wouldhave already lunch when people
would uh, when it was breakfasttime and she would see this
track of company men and companywomen moving from the train
station to their offices.
And yeah, as you said, as youdescribed, she was in shock.
(26:45):
Right, she said this is like atrack of zombies passing by.
Are you sure this is the countrywhere you find this?
What do you call it?
Ikigai?
So she was generally shocked.
But then, as you and I talkedabout it a couple of times, it's
, it's different facets of oneculture and the maybe it's that
the ikigai sources or the ikigaikan may just not be apparent to
(27:09):
my eyes, which these people whoI observe in the mornings on
their way to work, areexperiencing, but I can can
really say so, I can concludefrom that that really, in the
mountains of Gunma or NiigataPrefecture, or in the tropical
beauty of Nagasaki Prefecture, Ifind so much of this beautiful
(27:29):
endowment, of everything thatIkigai means to me, that I'm
very happy that Japan is a bigcountry with such diverse
bandwidth of what you can findthere.
Well, there you go.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I didn't realize you had traveled that often to Japan
and traveled, I guess, up thechain of islands.
So it seems like youexperienced intuitively Ikigai
first and then you did thetheory and history and explored
the psychological andphilosophical elements of it
(28:05):
later.
So that's interesting.
And, yeah, I mean Japan is aunique country.
It has I call it a country ofextremes, you know has this
incredible history and beautyand connection to nature and
this idea of space and harmony.
And then you go to the city andit's crowded and stressful and
you do see a lot of loneliness.
(28:27):
So there is a lot of loneliness, a lot of stress.
So it's fascinating culture toexplore and experience.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, explore and experience.
Yeah, and maybe, as you alludedto that, I was kind of
intuitively seeking, so I wassomewhat, honestly, I was
somewhat drawn to you and yourwork.
Why?
Because we are meaning makinganimals, we are meaning making
creatures as human beings, and Ihad experienced it before and,
(28:55):
frankly speaking, some of thethings which I experienced in
Japan, they are not unlike myGerman upbringing, right Again,
like doing things right, beingon time.
This is my job.
I've got a training as a waiterand this is what I want to do.
I want to be a waiter in thebest perfection of the sense of
the word.
This is something which I'veexperienced in my own youth in
(29:17):
Germany, right and there I thinkit has eroded over the last few
decades and so in homeopathicdoses.
I find it really reallyheartwarming to experience it
again in Japan, to see it and tofind this meaning with which I
see that and really, essentially, I honestly think that
experiencing it firsthand andthen finding you was sort of
(29:39):
meant to be to make meaning ofwhat I had experienced.
And in our work together Irealized a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
You are right.
When you're in Japan, you feelacknowledged and served and
taken care of and you just seeeverything done properly and you
rarely see garbage or no oneleaves you in a state of
something half done.
They make sure you get to yourdestination or get what you want
(30:13):
.
So, yeah, I love that and Ilove that.
Yeah, somehow the stars alignedor the universe conspired to
bring us together under thiswonderful context of culture and
Ikigai, but it's sort of gone.
I think it's going beyond thattoo.
(30:33):
We're becoming friends andwe're sharing.
You invited me in one of yourclasses and that was wonderful
to see you in action and yourenthusiasm, so hopefully we'll
who knows what we could do inthe future together.
But on your linkedin profile Isaw something that I think is a
(30:55):
mantra you live by, which isalways in the making, never made
.
Do you want to expand on that?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I think it really connects with with this concept
of the journey right and, for me, always in the making but never
made.
So it has this this concept ofthe journey right and, for me,
always in the making but nevermade sort of has this element of
perpetuity right?
And there's a clear connectionwith my energy sources, my two
whys, my ancestry.
For me, my time on planet Earthis really a journey towards
(31:24):
self-actualization.
That's what I'm seeking out.
I want to understand, I want tomake sense and, at the same
time, I've got the ambition toenjoy the journey and make most
out of it on the way, but notonly logistically for myself.
I mean making most of it formyself, my loved ones and,
honestly, the world.
(31:44):
And yeah, I clearly experiencedthis sort of restlessness, the
world.
And, yeah, I clearlyexperienced this sort of
restlessness.
I've got this joy in exploringand discovering and really
living to life to its fullest,and one day I'll find time to
rest, but that can wait.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
You do live life to the fullest.
You have this abundance ofenergy and, yeah, you love
learning.
You did an intensive program ofobviously upgrading your French
.
I think is how you framed ityeah.
So you do have a lot of ikigai,I think learning, sailing,
(32:23):
travelling so we could touch onall of those.
But let's talk about your lovefor the ocean and sailing.
That is obviously somethingthat came to you very early, as
you mentioned 14.
It's probably impacted you anddefined you in ways that most
people wouldn't understand.
(32:43):
So what attracted you to theocean and I think obviously
you've been sailing for quite awhile, because you said it all
kind of happened around the ageof 14, or at least 19, when you
started it as a profession.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I hope, nick, you're not suggesting that I'm old, but
, yes, not at all.
It's been a couple of years,I've practiced for some time but
, frankly speaking, I think thatthe calling of the sea has
always been there full stop.
I've got these fond childhoodmemories of endless summer
vacation in southern france,with beaches and surfing and
(33:20):
boating.
But then, yeah, you alluded to,to my, the 14 year old version
of me, my first, and that waswhen I could combine my passion
for the water with a sense ofpurpose, not only doing it
because it's nice, it'scomfortable in the sun and water
, but there's a meaning behindit.
And, frankly speaking, I wouldsay and you equip me with that
(33:41):
word the ocean has become myIbasho.
It is my place of refuge, it'sthe place where I find
empowerment, and that is reallywhat the ocean means to me.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Love it.
Actually, I found another paperon e-bashel which I'll share
with you after this call, but itwas distinctly defining
personal e-bashel and sociale-bashel, which we've touched on
.
So it sounds like, yeah, theocean is intimately a personal
(34:12):
e-bashel which we've touched on.
So it sounds like, yeah, theocean is intimately a personal
e-bashel, but it's obviouslybeen a social e-bashel in this
context of living on ships andworking with other people and
leading them, and I'm sureyou've worked with all sorts of
people from all sorts ofdifferent countries and
different backgrounds.
So has it been both a personale-bashel and a social e-bashel.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, the ocean is big enough to accommodate both.
So, yes, yes, it was both, itwas both.
And I realized that now becauseso I'm sailing as a pastime,
right, I'm out there with my ownboat, and, uh, don't tell my
partner I hope she doesn'tlisten to the podcast that I
quite often enjoy sailingsingle-handed, which means alone
, because then I'm really, I'min unison, right, it's my boat,
(34:59):
it's the ocean, it's me quiteoften, because my boat is in
nova scotia, canada, so there'sall sorts of large sea animals
around, so so every now and thenyou've got a whale coming or
the dolphins, and they're allthere, but it's only them, my
boat and me, and that gives methis sense of personal being.
(35:19):
On top of that, there's theprofessional aspect, and I'm
currently in the process ofreactivating my Master Mariner's
license because I want to goout to sea professionally as
well.
There's currently in thedecarbonization of the world.
There's the decarbonization ofocean transportation, and I want
to play a role in that, and forthat there's also this
professional aspect to it, and Itruly believe that the
(35:41):
50-year-old version of myselfwill make a better leader on
board as well.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I'm sure he will.
In fact, I know he will Goingback to when you're sailing
purely for pleasure and you'resailing by yourself.
I imagine you have thesemoments of awe where you might
see a sunset or the water's flatand calm and you have almost
(36:07):
like a spiritual experience withnature.
I'm part of this vast ocean orthis world or this universe, so
does that happen quite often?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yes, there's really a gazillion of moments where you
have this tranquility, right,the number of sunsets and
sunrises you experience whenyou're out there.
Yeah, you've seen them all, butevery single time it's a
different experience.
It's somewhat nice and it'sthis moment of okay, a new day
(36:41):
breaks or a day comes to rest,so they are there.
But one of the really touchingfeelings I had this last summer
here I was sailing single-handedfrom a place called Hollywood
Bay in Nova Scotia where I hadanchored over the night, and it
really got foggy.
I got so foggy I couldn't seeanything.
And from the day before, when Iwas sailing upwind, there was a
(37:03):
lot of swell standing out there.
So the boat was just rollingall over the place and you
couldn't see anything.
So it's scary, right, and it'soh, it was cold because it's the
labrador stream out there.
So I was freezing, we wereshaking, I couldn't see anything
, I think I was afraid.
And suddenly we've got this.
There's this sound, right,there's, there's a right whale
(37:26):
passing just next to me.
He just came to the surface, hesurfaced once, blew and went
down again.
And that moment, nick, I tellyou, that was when I said what
am I worried about?
I'm in unison with the universe, I'm in unison with nature.
I'm here, there's nothing Ihave to worry about, and from
there on I quite enjoyed thatride and nothing had changed.
(37:48):
I was still rolling from sideto side, I couldn't see anything
, it was still freezing, but Ithought, wow, I'm exactly where
I belong.
Wow, what a moment.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, I think that's so important.
It's kind of inspired me tothink oh, how can I spend more
time alone, but doing anactivity like that, perhaps out
in nature, where there's I don'twant to call it an element of
risk, but where you really arealone and you're still in unison
(38:21):
with something or connected tosomething that happens to be a
lot bigger than yourself, whichis nature.
So I mean, the ocean's quite aunique I mean.
I think when we say nature, wethink of forests and green trees
and whatnot, but yeah, theocean is something most people
(38:42):
probably don't experience thatoften, and so imagine it's got
its uniqueness and thisincredible power of gravity
pushing the oceans, moving theoceans and all this abundance of
life swimming through it, andyou're this little boat on the
(39:06):
top of it and it can be flat onemoment, and then, who knows,
huge waves rocking the boat, andthat's when maybe you start to
think oh, why am I out here?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
and it's interesting, right ever so often as humans
now in in our day, and we arethere to preserving our lives,
to make it most comfortable, sowith heated steering wheels and
I, you live in Australia, so youdon't have it, but we, at minus
20 degrees, we've got heatedsteering wheels, we've got
heated seats, we've got thecomfort, we've got heated garage
and we just remove everyunpleasantry of life.
(39:44):
And what does it leave us with?
Even more emptiness of life.
And what does it leave us with?
Even more emptiness.
And I think that brings us rightback to the beginning of this
conversation of how a lifewithout challenges is not worth
living.
I think it is these criticalmoments which really make us
feel alive and be alive and makeit worth to be alive, and I
(40:05):
think so.
The ocean is certainly oneplace where I find it, but
that's really that.
That that is me, for whateverweird circumstances the the
universe had in stock for me.
But I think we find that kindof beauty anywhere, as long as
there is undominated nature, andI was told you've got plenty of
that in your country as wellyes, we do.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I probably don't see enough of it, though, but, um, I
do recall you saying we, yeah,we were talking about challenge,
and you said you know, if itwere easy, it wouldn't be worth
doing, and that's that's true.
So we do need challenge andthat's our way to grow and
actualize and uncover more ofwho we are and maybe get closer
(40:52):
to the person we want to be.
And that's another yeah, facetto Ikigai.
It's not just sensory pleasureor all these you know, positive
things.
It's like who can you becomewhen you're under stress and
what's a challenge worthpursuing?
Yeah, and we need that.
Or, yeah, as you say we.
(41:13):
We seem to fall into this kindof depression or just this lack
of any sense of purpose ormeaning to our life if, if we
have this abundance of ease.
So it is probably one of ourbiggest problems, like excessive
ease and comfort and nofriction, no stimulation.
(41:35):
It's like we're becoming weakerrather than stronger.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
And in shipping circles we've got this saying
right the calm sea has nevermade a great sailor.
And I think there's a lot oftruth in that.
If you don't face off adversity, if you don't stretch yourself,
if you don't, you know you getinto your comfort zone.
If you don't know where yourboundaries of your comfort zone
are, because you never overstepthem, you will never grow.
(42:01):
You will always stay in thislittle playground of your
comfort zone and I can guaranteeyou that that is not where you
find the good stuff.
We've been grazing in thislittle turf all our lives.
We know it.
There is no hidden gems inthere.
The good stuff is sort ofwaiting outside of that right,
and for that you need to go intothat journey and venture out of
(42:21):
your own playbox and to sharethat part of the personal story
with you.
From my transition, my lifetransition, just a few months
back, there was, of course,there was excitement about what
was ahead, but there was alsoanxiousness.
Right, I was anxious about whatmay be ahead, the things which
I couldn't see and foresee and Ididn't know.
I couldn't control the unknown.
(42:43):
But at the same time, becauseI've been working towards it for
a long time and thinking itthrough.
I've done a lot of prep workwith the people around me.
I knew I could lean in into thediscomfort and I think that's
an important aspect that it'sreally.
If you continuously remain inyour comfort zone, you will
never venture out to wherereally the good stuff happens.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I agree totally.
I think I shared with you thatexperience with my retreat last
year, first time to do it.
So much planning andpreparation, but it really
doesn't prepare you.
You've got to take a risk,you've got to embrace it, and I
mean not just hope but trust.
The people you bring togetherwill create a great dynamic.
(43:28):
You've done all the preparationand even if things go wrong,
you'll handle it and you knowmost cases you do.
And then, yeah, you can do itagain and you can tweak it and
make it more enjoyable,fulfilling.
And and now I'm, you know, nowI'm contemplating oh, how about
a three-day workshop in Tokyo?
(43:49):
And so, yeah, every littleexperience or every challenge
you overcome leads to otherideas.
And, yeah, you're right, youcreate your own Once you step
outside your comfort zone.
It's almost you're creatingthis playground that you're yet
to explore but keeps growing,and that's really exciting yeah,
(44:11):
it is exciting and, at the sametime, so.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Look, I mean, I'm not talking about standing at a
cliff, jumping down and wishingthat you learn how to fly on the
way down.
In all likelihood, that's notgoing to happen, right?
But that's not the conceptwhich you and I talk about.
We're talking about it is hardwork period.
It takes a lot of preparation,it takes consideration, it takes
a lot of thinking and it takespeople.
(44:35):
You need to engage.
We talked about leadership.
You need to engage the peoplearound you, your network, and
all that is hard work can bevery uncomfortable, can be very
unpleasant, can be veryuncomfortable, can be very
unpleasant, but I'm convincedthat the outcome, the
opportunities which lay beyondthose boundaries of our comfort
zone, are so big that theyoutweigh the risks on the way
(44:57):
there, if we are willing toinvest the energy and the
resources to plan it properly.
And, as you said, there's stillunknowns, there's still
vulnerabilities along the way.
But if you've covered howevermany of your bases, I think
you'll be just fine.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Well, that might be the perfect way to end this
podcast episode, but I will askyou one more question.
We've touched on sailing, yourlove of coaching, leadership, I
think.
You love to travel, you love tolearn languages.
Are there any other Ikigaisources?
(45:36):
I don't know about.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
No, you know them all , but maybe the listeners to
this podcast don't know yet thatI'm an avid practitioner of
yoga.
That's right, yoga is really onthe yoga mat, where you find me
every day.
That's where the yoke betweenmind, body and my breathing come
together.
So that is a big source of whoI am as well, nice, I might have
(46:03):
to get into that.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
So yeah, I've learned so much from you, martin, and
really appreciate you and ourfriendship.
So thank you so much for yourtime today.
Arigato, arigato, ne, okay jane.
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Martin Kraft.
A master mariner by trainingand a seasoned senior executive,
martin brings over two decadesof experience in building
cohesive, high-performing teamsacross three continents, and
(00:37):
also through diverse cultures Atone of France's leading
business schools, where heteaches the elective leadership,
career values and purpose.
Together with his students, heexplores profound questions
about what constitutes a lifeworth living, and he is an
(00:58):
accredited associate certifiedcoach by the International
Coaching Federation, icf.
Welcome to the podcast, martin.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, Nick thanks a lot for having me, and of course
, it's a bit of a change.
We've been knowing each otherfor some time through the
program, but I'm super happy tomeet you on this format and in
this context.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So am I.
I was looking forward to this,and this will be a different
episode.
I think it's going to be morecasual, more open, and we always
have these wonderfuldiscussions, so I'm sure we'll
have a wonderful discussion onthis episode.
So let's start with a bit ofbackground.
Would you like to share some ofyour past?
(01:40):
I know it's been quite ajourney.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, with pleasure.
So I was born and raised inGermany into fairly modest
family circumstances and if Itoday look at my 13-year-old son
, I recognize this kind oflaissez-faire of the youth,
right?
It's almost like that youthfulme which is playful and joyful
and doesn't care about a lot ofthings, and that changed at the
age of 14 in my case.
You know, is playful and joyfuland doesn't care about a lot of
(02:04):
things, right?
And that changed at the age of14 in my case.
That's what I normally refer toas my first awakening.
For various circumstances, Iended up at a British sailing
school and that reallyprofoundly changed my life.
There I really found my calling.
So from that day onwards, from14 years old onwards, I didn't
(02:26):
want to become an astronaut orrocket scientist or something.
I wanted to become a ship'scaptain.
And so I went to sea at the ageof 19.
I sailed around the globe oncontainer ships, tankers and
square riggers, and then Iobtained my Master Mariner's
license and that sort of kickedoff then a whole sequence of
events and it suddenly triggeredmy curiosity because I'd
(02:50):
learned how to steer ships.
But then I didn't understand whywere these ships going from
where they came from to wherethey went, and so only one way
to figure it out I thoughtthat's starting business.
In starting business, Irealized okay, now I understand
why nations trade, how nationstrade, how companies operate,
and I've understood a little bitabout the legal context in
(03:11):
which they operate, but I didn'tfully understand it.
So one way to figure it out isto study law, which I did.
So with all that, my careerreally took off beyond my
wildest dreams and it was ajourney, journey which was just
amazing, and 10 years ago Imoved to Montreal, quebec,
canada, together with my family,and I really found my happy
(03:33):
place here, despite the freezingcold outside these days Minus
20 degrees today.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That is cold.
Well, there you go, Thank you.
So that's yeah, that's quite ajourney Several countries and
obviously a lot of time spent onships.
So I'm curious, what is amaster mariner?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
a master mariner essentially has a driver's
license for ships, right?
So we are navigating officersin the merchant navy, so a
master mariner is somebody who'sresponsible to drive a ship and
to do he's responsible for theship, its crew and the cargo to
safely and sustainable transportgoods from a to b and connect
(04:16):
continents in peaceful trade.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Essentially, there you go and you do have a love
for sailing and you are goingthrough a transition which I've
learned about for the past yearor so.
So, yes, you've gone throughthis career change, among other
things, and that's what broughtus together.
You took my Higai Coachcertification, so essentially
(04:38):
you told me you were retiring,but really you were
transitioning.
So what has that transitionbeen?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, it's interesting how words make
meaning, right.
So, in my case, when I turned50, which was November last year
I transitioned into what Iwould call the new chapter of my
life, right, the currentchapter.
And that in itself is a journeywhich had its roots at a very
unlikely place, and that isHarvard Business School.
As I had sort of touched onalready until 2020, I enjoyed
(05:09):
this corporate career withamazing opportunities both for
my personal and professionalgrowth and finally, after 16
years of wanting to go, I wasfinally able to participate in a
Harvard Business School programwhich is called a general
management program.
The general management programat Harvard Business School is
supposed to transform subjectmatter experts into general
(05:32):
managers, so it's really atransformative transition with a
goal to be leaders, to be CEOsand the like.
But then the most amazing thinghappened during my stint there.
I realized that, instead ofcontinuously pursuing higher,
faster, more, I sort of calmeddown and I really I started
(05:52):
arriving at myself.
And then, of course because itwas 2020, right.
So we're talking about themiddle of the COVID pandemic,
with all the uncertainty and allthe opportunities that were
there and that really triggeredfor me a journey of humbling, of
easing up, relaxing and lettinggo and, frankly speaking, after
all these amazing opportunitiesin my life, I really had this
(06:15):
desire, still have this desireof wanting to give back to
society and with that I reallycame up with the concept of this
transition, which is sort of ona foundation, and that
foundation are my loved ones,and on that foundation of my
loved ones rest three pillars,and these three pillars are
coaching, teaching and sailing.
So essentially, in Ikigai lingowe could talk about my azubigai
(06:40):
sources, those which make mylife worth living, and that is
what I've put into practice.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
At the end of last year, Well, I would venture to
say there might even be a fourthpillar, which is learning.
You seem to be a student oflife and I think you will be,
for life, always eager to learnand grow, and I also think you
love applying what you learn,which I've seen.
So, yeah, why do you have thisinsatiable appetite to learn
(07:09):
more, when you could just think,hey, I've done it, I'm retiring
young, I could just relax and,uh, do nothing, or just sail the
seas and and have no desire tocontinue learning.
But you do.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Well, nick, you don't go easy with your questions, do
you?
I mean, this is something I'vebeen thinking about that really
deep and long and I came up withtwo whys why I am a lifelong
learner.
So the first one is rooted infamily.
That is sort of my grandfatherand my mother and their heritage
.
They both had amazing talentsin their lives but they didn't
(07:47):
have the opportunity to livethem.
So my grandfather, when he was14 years old, he was sent down
into a coal mine and my mother,at 14 years old, was told you
know, you don't need to gofurther to school, even though
you want to, because you're justa girl, you're a woman, you'll
get married and that's it,that's your life, end of the
story.
So that's it, that's your life,end of the story.
So that's really one source ofmy whys.
(08:07):
The other source is the parableof the talents in the Bible.
You know, the responsible useof one's abilities, resources
and gifts.
And look, by unbelievable luckand coincidence, I was born at a
time and in a location where Ireally perceived the unlimited
(08:27):
opportunities, and maybe youremember we had this one session
in our Ikigai group where I hadthis Eureka moment when I
realized that I don't only havethe opportunity to engage my
talent, but that I've reallyI've got this perceived
obligation to make best use ofmy talents and not to talk with
the Bible, not just to bury themin the ground as in the parable
(08:47):
.
So these, really, these are mytwo whys and I feel to that
degree that I'm doing justice tomyself and I'm doing justice to
my ancestors.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I love it.
Yeah, I really enjoyed ourcohort with Veronica and the
conversations we had and, yeah,every time we talk you seem to
reveal something or uncoversomething that really fascinates
me.
So you're moving on to one ofthese pillars.
You mentioned coaching.
You are an experienced coach.
(09:20):
How would you define coachingand what is your role as a coach
?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So I guess the ICF, where I'm accredited, would want
me to say that coaching isabout something like giving the
client agency and autonomy tothink carefully and take actions
based on reflection.
Okay, that's what they wouldwant me to say.
My amazing teacher and mastercoach, jim Gavin, said once
(09:48):
coaching is what coaches do andhonestly, I think both those
definitions hold truth.
I mean, the first one has allthe buzzwords, right, but most
importantly, it results inaction, and I think that's what
coaching is about.
It is to affect change, whichchanges life, which changes
outcome.
But then also, jim Gavin'sdefinition of coaching is what
(10:10):
coaches do affords thisflexibility and the space for
coach and coachee to show up intheir humanity, in their
individuality, as responsibleselves.
For me, as far as I'm concerned,as a coach, how do I see my
role?
Well, I like this metaphor ofwalking a bit of the way
together.
Right, that in coaching there'sthis walking between coach and
(10:31):
coachee.
But as a coach, I'm notcarrying my coachee's burden and
I'm not taking the decisionsfor them.
Right, I'm not there to comfortthem.
I'm there with them, but as Ifound at some stage by Rumi, the
13th century poet and scholar.
He said it's your road, andyours alone.
Others may walk it with you,but no one can walk it for you,
(10:54):
and I think that is the essenceof coaching and that is my
current definition of my role asa coach.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Love it, love it.
I think I want to get somecoaching from you now.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
And that's the beauty of it, right, nick?
That we always we show up asstudents and teachers at the
same time.
And this traditional sort ofdifferentiation into roles I
think it doesn't hold true forme anymore.
I learned so much from my kids,I learned so much from my
elders.
We've got all theseopportunities and we can be both
at the same time.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Yeah, I love that idea.
It's a collaborative, sharedexperience, and sometimes you
don't even need to find theanswers, you just explore all
these other opportunities orpossibilities, and I think
that's very much aligned toIkigai and also what we
experienced in our cohort, whichwe'll touch on later.
(11:51):
But with your work also comesleadership.
So what about leadership?
What makes a great leader,especially in this time of
radical change with technology,ai and you know, the way we've
worked, or the way we work now,has radically changed since, you
(12:11):
know, 20 years ago.
Yeah, so, yeah, what are yourthoughts on all that?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So in my work at Schema Business School in Lille,
france, I discussed with mystudents that leadership is all
about the people.
It's the responsibility for theperformance of a group of
people right, so for that youneed two things you need to
influence others and you need tomake a difference in what they
do, and the thoughts and thefeelings which are driving the
(12:39):
actions.
From there on, we often land atthe three imperatives, as I
call them, which make a greatleader.
And in my definition, in myworld, a great leader needs to
be able to manage themselves,manage their network and lead
their team.
So these are the threeimperatives.
And from the imperatives we thenmove on to what I call the
(13:02):
three questions of value-basedleadership, which are deeply
important to me.
And there number one is how doothers experience me and
themselves in my presence?
The second one is what role doI play in the performance or the
underperformance of others?
And the third question youshould ask yourself as a
value-based leader is how muchsuffering are you willing to
(13:25):
accept that somebody else goesthrough for your own benefit?
And you alluded to that justbefore you asked me this
question.
It's about the questions.
For me, most of the learnings.
Most of realizations are not inthe answers.
We find them in the questions,and that maybe to sum it up.
(13:46):
For me, leadership is reallyagain as we talked about in the
court, it's Shantosuru.
Yeah, things should be doneproperly, properly.
Leadership should be doneproperly.
Working with people should bedone properly.
Leadership should be doneproperly.
Working with people should bedone properly, chantosuru.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You're an outstanding student, martin, so you've
pulled out Asobi Gai, so thesethings we consider play or
leisure activities worthengaging in.
And now Chantosuru to do thingsproperly.
So I love it.
I do like this idea of how doyou manage yourself that you
just mentioned, and that'sprobably I mean.
(14:26):
Without that, you can't reallydo what follows, and this is
probably where most peoplestruggle in life.
People struggle in life.
They can't manage themselves.
They can't manage their mind,their behaviors.
They turn to vices alcohol,cigarettes, excessive
(14:48):
entertainment to get through theday.
So would you have any advice on?
You know, how does one gainmore control of their mind or
their impulses so they makebetter decisions?
That then enables them toeither live a more meaningful
life or a more successful life,or fulfilling life.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I think all work and all development really starts
with breathing and your body, ofbeing with yourself, of being
in sync with yourself, of notfinding yourself through others
seeking for yourself and theanswers in social media or
caring about what others thinkof you.
(15:35):
I think the biggest advice Ihave to give is get comfortable
with yourself.
It's amazing how difficult thathas become, with all the noise
around us and distractionsaround the clock, always at our
disposal, and yet people aremore lonely than they've ever
(15:56):
been in my experience.
And yet people are more lonelythan they've ever been in my
experience.
And I think for that to happen,you really need to get
comfortable with yourself.
In order to get comfortablewith yourself, I think there's
the approaches of breathing, ofyoga, of spending time with
yourself, of being consciousabout yourself.
So that's the best piece ofadvice which I could be giving
(16:17):
Before you try to getcomfortable with others, give
yourself an opportunity, giveyourself a hug and get
comfortable with yourself.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Nice, you seem to be combining two elements of
self-acceptance and self-care,and we often struggle to accept
ourselves and we often don'tallow self-care.
We're not worthy of it.
Yeah, I love it.
I love, yeah, get comfortablewith who you are, and I mean,
(16:48):
that's so true.
I think once you can acceptyourself or be comfortable with
who you are, you then seem tohave the compassion and space to
be patient and comfortable withother people, more
understanding.
So it does start from the self.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, and I think if you don't nurture that seat in
yourself, right, if you don'ttake good care of yourself, how
could you reasonably expect,without burning out, that you
could care for others?
I don't think it works.
And maybe at the surface, maybefor a certain period of time,
but without nurturing that innerchild in us and that person who
we truly are, I think it wouldbe ludicrous to think that we
(17:29):
could do something for the restof the world.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
I agree.
I think eventually, yeah, youburn out.
Or perhaps because it's notreally authentic, or you're sort
of being disingenuous, peoplewill find out, they'll know hang
on, you're not really livingthis.
It's not working for us anymore.
So, yeah, you've got to walkthe talk, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Exactly and, if I may , on that one, I think human
beings have a developed sensefor authenticity.
We do feel it there's somesensor which is sort of between
all our other senses that werealize with others when not, we
think they're authentic.
But quite often we seem to belacking that self-control and
(18:16):
that self-adjustment forourselves, that awareness when
we are really authentic.
And then you try to gloss overat the corners and you don't
want to let yourself shinethrough, instead of being open,
honest and loving and caringwith and for yourself.
And I think that is really achallenge which I'm experiencing
in my work and in my life.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Wonderful.
Yeah, I think we experiencedthat in our cohort and we had
this cozy cohort with thewonderful Veronica, and you both
embraced, you know, all thesefacets of Ikigai and this led to
some amazing discussions andshared insights.
So how was that experience foryou, let's say, compared to
(19:01):
other types of training orprograms you've done in the past
?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Well, it was great.
What else do you want me to sayother than it was amazing?
What an amazing experience.
But, nick, in all seriousnessit was.
But what made it great was so,first of all, the thinking time
which we had together.
But I had thinking time withothers in other contexts, but
the thinking time and thequality of the thinking time
(19:27):
which we had together in thecohort was amazing, was
outstanding.
Then you, as sort of thefacilitator of our learning.
Then you, as sort of thefacilitator of our learning, you
equipped us with vocabulary andtools to describe what we were
experiencing.
Right, we were able to uncovertogether things which happened
and you helped us and guided usalong the path of thinking which
(19:52):
has been there in the past overthousands of years.
And so suddenly we didn't feelalone.
Yeah, we were a small cohortwith our facilitator, but
suddenly we stood in the contextof heritage, right Then, for
sure, the intimacy and thevulnerability between us which
we were able to exhibit honestlyfrom session one was amazing.
(20:13):
I mean, we met online, we werespread across the globe, but
from the first encounter we werethere together and we didn't
shy away from ourselves and fromeach other.
And if I look at what the workwhich was done with the Kamiya
questions, for instance, thestuff that really matters.
When you ask yourself, in thepresence of others, in what ways
(20:35):
is my life worth living?
In the presence of others, inwhat ways is my life worth
living, or why do I deserve toexist, hell, it doesn't get more
foundational than that, itdoesn't get more intimate than
that.
And that is what we've doneright.
And to be able to discuss thesequestions in the cohort.
That sort of fostered my hopein humanity and human mankind
and, at the end of the day,really, with all the work which
(20:56):
we've done together in thecohort, it created this.
And at the end of the day,really, with all the work which
we've done together in thecohort, it created this tribal
belonging at the end of the day.
So there's really this sense ofokay, we went through this
together.
It was a transformationalexperience.
Now we landed here and weformed this bond between us
together.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Thank you.
It is about a sense ofbelonging and connection
together.
Thank you.
It is about a sense ofbelonging and connection, and
every cohort is unique and oftenvery special in different ways.
But, yeah, we really kicked itoff with a lot of trust and
vulnerability and it seemed tofly by and there's always this
kind of not sadness ordisappointment, but it's when a
(21:37):
cohort ends I'm like, oh wow,we're not going to continue this
experience anymore.
So clearly very valuable for mepersonally and I'm still amazed
I get to do this and connectwith people all over the world
and I'm often learning just asmuch or even more from the
cohorts I have this privilege tofacilitate on this amazing
(22:03):
concept and word, but all theseother relatable concepts tied to
Ikigai.
So, yeah, my work is quiteunique and special and I'm glad
I was able to share that withyou.
Special and I'm glad I was ableto share that with you and, as
I mentioned before, you reallyembraced these ideas of Ikigai
(22:24):
and you've done a lot ofcoaching and coach training.
So now that you've you knowyou've had time probably to
process most of it start playingwith some of these concepts.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
How does it fit into the picture now?
Well, let me assume for asecond that you would kick me
immediately off your podcast ifI were to say that I find it
very useful that I've got a Venndiagram with pictures of what
you love, what you're good at,what you maybe paid for and what
the world needs.
So let's take that for a factfor a moment, that that is a
no-go area for this podcast, andit shouldn't be anyway, exactly
(23:04):
.
But, um, look, I think what,what our work has created
together, is another tool in thetoolbox, or well, frankly, it's
another toolbox.
It's another toolbox which iscompatible with the other
approaches, which and structureswhich I'm using in my work,
which is, along, reflectiveinquiry and awareness training,
and for me, it's really theresult of the ikigai coaching.
(23:27):
Training was was a way ofthinking or maybe even better, a
way of being, and what I findso cherishable about the entire
concept is really it wasdeveloped again over thousands
of years by generations ofteachers and practitioners and
it's available to all of us.
It's there, it's out there,it's ours to use and ours to
deploy for the betterment of allof us, and that is really how
(23:50):
it sort of fits into my, myentire portfolio yeah, I love
your enthusiasm You're justalways enthusiastic about this
concept and other concepts andlearning sharing.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
But I do recall the day we met in Japan.
We happened to be in Japan atthe same time and I was sick as
a dog and I thought, oh, what amI going to do?
I've got to hide this sicknessand meet this guy and try and
come across as full of energy.
And, yeah, it was great to meetyou and your partner.
(24:26):
And then, I think later youshared with me that maybe your
partner and yourself wereskeptical to some degree about
the presence of ikigai in Japanbecause of what you saw in Tokyo
.
And it was only when youtraveled outside the major
cities did you see ikigai in thelives of Japanese.
(24:49):
So do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
yeah.
So first of all, I can vouchfor it that when you are sick as
a dog, you still functionperfectly fine and you know your
croissant and your coffee.
So that's all, tick the box,done, great.
So I've been a frequent visitorto rural Japan over a decade,
right, and I always love thetranquility, the beauty of the
(25:14):
nature, the cleanliness, thededication of the people and the
raison d'être.
So one instance, right, becauseI've been traveling a lot to
the south.
So there was always a taxidriver picking me up on my last
day to return me to FukuokaAirport, right, and that taxi
driver, of course, would alwaysshow up in his taxi driver cap,
in his taxi driver uniform, witha neatly tied tie and in an
(25:39):
impeccable taxi which seemed tobe from at least one century ago
, maybe more, um, but you knowwith these how you call these
knitted sort of mats which werearound it to protect the entire
thing.
So this building of art aroundit and his showing up in, I'm
proud because I'm a taxi driverand I drive you to your
(26:00):
destination safely and that ismy role.
That's actually the first timewhere I came across Ikigai.
Now let's talk about Tokyo for asecond.
That's a different, that's adifferent city, that's a
different country, that's maybea different universe altogether.
Right and uh, for for mypartner it was the first time in
(26:21):
japan, it was the first time intokyo for her, and in the
mornings, you know, we weregenerally jet lagged the first
couple of mornings and we wouldhave already lunch when people
would uh, when it was breakfasttime and she would see this
track of company men and companywomen moving from the train
station to their offices.
And yeah, as you said, as youdescribed, she was in shock.
(26:45):
Right, she said this is like atrack of zombies passing by.
Are you sure this is the countrywhere you find this?
What do you call it?
Ikigai?
So she was generally shocked.
But then, as you and I talkedabout it a couple of times, it's
, it's different facets of oneculture and the maybe it's that
the ikigai sources or the ikigaikan may just not be apparent to
(27:09):
my eyes, which these people whoI observe in the mornings on
their way to work, areexperiencing, but I can can
really say so, I can concludefrom that that really, in the
mountains of Gunma or NiigataPrefecture, or in the tropical
beauty of Nagasaki Prefecture, Ifind so much of this beautiful
(27:29):
endowment, of everything thatIkigai means to me, that I'm
very happy that Japan is a bigcountry with such diverse
bandwidth of what you can findthere.
Well, there you go.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I didn't realize you had traveled that often to Japan
and traveled, I guess, up thechain of islands.
So it seems like youexperienced intuitively Ikigai
first and then you did thetheory and history and explored
the psychological andphilosophical elements of it
(28:05):
later.
So that's interesting.
And, yeah, I mean Japan is aunique country.
It has I call it a country ofextremes, you know has this
incredible history and beautyand connection to nature and
this idea of space and harmony.
And then you go to the city andit's crowded and stressful and
you do see a lot of loneliness.
(28:27):
So there is a lot of loneliness, a lot of stress.
So it's fascinating culture toexplore and experience.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, explore and experience.
Yeah, and maybe, as you alludedto that, I was kind of
intuitively seeking, so I wassomewhat, honestly, I was
somewhat drawn to you and yourwork.
Why?
Because we are meaning makinganimals, we are meaning making
creatures as human beings, and Ihad experienced it before and,
(28:55):
frankly speaking, some of thethings which I experienced in
Japan, they are not unlike myGerman upbringing, right Again,
like doing things right, beingon time.
This is my job.
I've got a training as a waiterand this is what I want to do.
I want to be a waiter in thebest perfection of the sense of
the word.
This is something which I'veexperienced in my own youth in
(29:17):
Germany, right and there I thinkit has eroded over the last few
decades and so in homeopathicdoses.
I find it really reallyheartwarming to experience it
again in Japan, to see it and tofind this meaning with which I
see that and really, essentially, I honestly think that
experiencing it firsthand andthen finding you was sort of
(29:39):
meant to be to make meaning ofwhat I had experienced.
And in our work together Irealized a lot.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
You are right.
When you're in Japan, you feelacknowledged and served and
taken care of and you just seeeverything done properly and you
rarely see garbage or no oneleaves you in a state of
something half done.
They make sure you get to yourdestination or get what you want
(30:13):
.
So, yeah, I love that and Ilove that.
Yeah, somehow the stars alignedor the universe conspired to
bring us together under thiswonderful context of culture and
Ikigai, but it's sort of gone.
I think it's going beyond thattoo.
(30:33):
We're becoming friends andwe're sharing.
You invited me in one of yourclasses and that was wonderful
to see you in action and yourenthusiasm, so hopefully we'll
who knows what we could do inthe future together.
But on your linkedin profile Isaw something that I think is a
(30:55):
mantra you live by, which isalways in the making, never made
.
Do you want to expand on that?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I think it really connects with with this concept
of the journey right and, for me, always in the making but never
made.
So it has this this concept ofthe journey right and, for me,
always in the making but nevermade sort of has this element of
perpetuity right?
And there's a clear connectionwith my energy sources, my two
whys, my ancestry.
For me, my time on planet Earthis really a journey towards
(31:24):
self-actualization.
That's what I'm seeking out.
I want to understand, I want tomake sense and, at the same
time, I've got the ambition toenjoy the journey and make most
out of it on the way, but notonly logistically for myself.
I mean making most of it formyself, my loved ones and,
honestly, the world.
(31:44):
And yeah, I clearly experiencedthis sort of restlessness, the
world.
And, yeah, I clearlyexperienced this sort of
restlessness.
I've got this joy in exploringand discovering and really
living to life to its fullest,and one day I'll find time to
rest, but that can wait.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
You do live life to the fullest.
You have this abundance ofenergy and, yeah, you love
learning.
You did an intensive program ofobviously upgrading your French
.
I think is how you framed ityeah.
So you do have a lot of ikigai,I think learning, sailing,
(32:23):
travelling so we could touch onall of those.
But let's talk about your lovefor the ocean and sailing.
That is obviously somethingthat came to you very early, as
you mentioned 14.
It's probably impacted you anddefined you in ways that most
people wouldn't understand.
(32:43):
So what attracted you to theocean and I think obviously
you've been sailing for quite awhile, because you said it all
kind of happened around the ageof 14, or at least 19, when you
started it as a profession.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I hope, nick, you're not suggesting that I'm old, but
, yes, not at all.
It's been a couple of years,I've practiced for some time but
, frankly speaking, I think thatthe calling of the sea has
always been there full stop.
I've got these fond childhoodmemories of endless summer
vacation in southern france,with beaches and surfing and
(33:20):
boating.
But then, yeah, you alluded to,to my, the 14 year old version
of me, my first, and that waswhen I could combine my passion
for the water with a sense ofpurpose, not only doing it
because it's nice, it'scomfortable in the sun and water
, but there's a meaning behindit.
And, frankly speaking, I wouldsay and you equip me with that
(33:41):
word the ocean has become myIbasho.
It is my place of refuge, it'sthe place where I find
empowerment, and that is reallywhat the ocean means to me.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Love it.
Actually, I found another paperon e-bashel which I'll share
with you after this call, but itwas distinctly defining
personal e-bashel and sociale-bashel, which we've touched on
.
So it sounds like, yeah, theocean is intimately a personal
(34:12):
e-bashel which we've touched on.
So it sounds like, yeah, theocean is intimately a personal
e-bashel, but it's obviouslybeen a social e-bashel in this
context of living on ships andworking with other people and
leading them, and I'm sureyou've worked with all sorts of
people from all sorts ofdifferent countries and
different backgrounds.
So has it been both a personale-bashel and a social e-bashel.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, the ocean is big enough to accommodate both.
So, yes, yes, it was both, itwas both.
And I realized that now becauseso I'm sailing as a pastime,
right, I'm out there with my ownboat, and, uh, don't tell my
partner I hope she doesn'tlisten to the podcast that I
quite often enjoy sailingsingle-handed, which means alone
, because then I'm really, I'min unison, right, it's my boat,
(34:59):
it's the ocean, it's me quiteoften, because my boat is in
nova scotia, canada, so there'sall sorts of large sea animals
around, so so every now and thenyou've got a whale coming or
the dolphins, and they're allthere, but it's only them, my
boat and me, and that gives methis sense of personal being.
(35:19):
On top of that, there's theprofessional aspect, and I'm
currently in the process ofreactivating my Master Mariner's
license because I want to goout to sea professionally as
well.
There's currently in thedecarbonization of the world.
There's the decarbonization ofocean transportation, and I want
to play a role in that, and forthat there's also this
professional aspect to it, and Itruly believe that the
(35:41):
50-year-old version of myselfwill make a better leader on
board as well.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I'm sure he will.
In fact, I know he will Goingback to when you're sailing
purely for pleasure and you'resailing by yourself.
I imagine you have thesemoments of awe where you might
see a sunset or the water's flatand calm and you have almost
(36:07):
like a spiritual experience withnature.
I'm part of this vast ocean orthis world or this universe, so
does that happen quite often?
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yes, there's really a gazillion of moments where you
have this tranquility, right,the number of sunsets and
sunrises you experience whenyou're out there.
Yeah, you've seen them all, butevery single time it's a
different experience.
It's somewhat nice and it'sthis moment of okay, a new day
(36:41):
breaks or a day comes to rest,so they are there.
But one of the really touchingfeelings I had this last summer
here I was sailing single-handedfrom a place called Hollywood
Bay in Nova Scotia where I hadanchored over the night, and it
really got foggy.
I got so foggy I couldn't seeanything.
And from the day before, when Iwas sailing upwind, there was a
(37:03):
lot of swell standing out there.
So the boat was just rollingall over the place and you
couldn't see anything.
So it's scary, right, and it'soh, it was cold because it's the
labrador stream out there.
So I was freezing, we wereshaking, I couldn't see anything
, I think I was afraid.
And suddenly we've got this.
There's this sound, right,there's, there's a right whale
(37:26):
passing just next to me.
He just came to the surface, hesurfaced once, blew and went
down again.
And that moment, nick, I tellyou, that was when I said what
am I worried about?
I'm in unison with the universe, I'm in unison with nature.
I'm here, there's nothing Ihave to worry about, and from
there on I quite enjoyed thatride and nothing had changed.
(37:48):
I was still rolling from sideto side, I couldn't see anything
, it was still freezing, but Ithought, wow, I'm exactly where
I belong.
Wow, what a moment.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, I think that's so important.
It's kind of inspired me tothink oh, how can I spend more
time alone, but doing anactivity like that, perhaps out
in nature, where there's I don'twant to call it an element of
risk, but where you really arealone and you're still in unison
(38:21):
with something or connected tosomething that happens to be a
lot bigger than yourself, whichis nature.
So I mean, the ocean's quite aunique I mean.
I think when we say nature, wethink of forests and green trees
and whatnot, but yeah, theocean is something most people
(38:42):
probably don't experience thatoften, and so imagine it's got
its uniqueness and thisincredible power of gravity
pushing the oceans, moving theoceans and all this abundance of
life swimming through it, andyou're this little boat on the
(39:06):
top of it and it can be flat onemoment, and then, who knows,
huge waves rocking the boat, andthat's when maybe you start to
think oh, why am I out here?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
and it's interesting, right ever so often as humans
now in in our day, and we arethere to preserving our lives,
to make it most comfortable, sowith heated steering wheels and
I, you live in Australia, so youdon't have it, but we, at minus
20 degrees, we've got heatedsteering wheels, we've got
heated seats, we've got thecomfort, we've got heated garage
and we just remove everyunpleasantry of life.
(39:44):
And what does it leave us with?
Even more emptiness of life.
And what does it leave us with?
Even more emptiness.
And I think that brings us rightback to the beginning of this
conversation of how a lifewithout challenges is not worth
living.
I think it is these criticalmoments which really make us
feel alive and be alive and makeit worth to be alive, and I
(40:05):
think so.
The ocean is certainly oneplace where I find it, but
that's really that.
That that is me, for whateverweird circumstances the the
universe had in stock for me.
But I think we find that kindof beauty anywhere, as long as
there is undominated nature, andI was told you've got plenty of
that in your country as wellyes, we do.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I probably don't see enough of it, though, but, um, I
do recall you saying we, yeah,we were talking about challenge,
and you said you know, if itwere easy, it wouldn't be worth
doing, and that's that's true.
So we do need challenge andthat's our way to grow and
actualize and uncover more ofwho we are and maybe get closer
(40:52):
to the person we want to be.
And that's another yeah, facetto Ikigai.
It's not just sensory pleasureor all these you know, positive
things.
It's like who can you becomewhen you're under stress and
what's a challenge worthpursuing?
Yeah, and we need that.
Or, yeah, as you say we.
(41:13):
We seem to fall into this kindof depression or just this lack
of any sense of purpose ormeaning to our life if, if we
have this abundance of ease.
So it is probably one of ourbiggest problems, like excessive
ease and comfort and nofriction, no stimulation.
(41:35):
It's like we're becoming weakerrather than stronger.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
And in shipping circles we've got this saying
right the calm sea has nevermade a great sailor.
And I think there's a lot oftruth in that.
If you don't face off adversity, if you don't stretch yourself,
if you don't, you know you getinto your comfort zone.
If you don't know where yourboundaries of your comfort zone
are, because you never overstepthem, you will never grow.
(42:01):
You will always stay in thislittle playground of your
comfort zone and I can guaranteeyou that that is not where you
find the good stuff.
We've been grazing in thislittle turf all our lives.
We know it.
There is no hidden gems inthere.
The good stuff is sort ofwaiting outside of that right,
and for that you need to go intothat journey and venture out of
(42:21):
your own playbox and to sharethat part of the personal story
with you.
From my transition, my lifetransition, just a few months
back, there was, of course,there was excitement about what
was ahead, but there was alsoanxiousness.
Right, I was anxious about whatmay be ahead, the things which
I couldn't see and foresee and Ididn't know.
I couldn't control the unknown.
(42:43):
But at the same time, becauseI've been working towards it for
a long time and thinking itthrough.
I've done a lot of prep workwith the people around me.
I knew I could lean in into thediscomfort and I think that's
an important aspect that it'sreally.
If you continuously remain inyour comfort zone, you will
never venture out to wherereally the good stuff happens.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I agree totally.
I think I shared with you thatexperience with my retreat last
year, first time to do it.
So much planning andpreparation, but it really
doesn't prepare you.
You've got to take a risk,you've got to embrace it, and I
mean not just hope but trust.
The people you bring togetherwill create a great dynamic.
(43:28):
You've done all the preparationand even if things go wrong,
you'll handle it and you knowmost cases you do.
And then, yeah, you can do itagain and you can tweak it and
make it more enjoyable,fulfilling.
And and now I'm, you know, nowI'm contemplating oh, how about
a three-day workshop in Tokyo?
(43:49):
And so, yeah, every littleexperience or every challenge
you overcome leads to otherideas.
And, yeah, you're right, youcreate your own Once you step
outside your comfort zone.
It's almost you're creatingthis playground that you're yet
to explore but keeps growing,and that's really exciting yeah,
(44:11):
it is exciting and, at the sametime, so.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Look, I mean, I'm not talking about standing at a
cliff, jumping down and wishingthat you learn how to fly on the
way down.
In all likelihood, that's notgoing to happen, right?
But that's not the conceptwhich you and I talk about.
We're talking about it is hardwork period.
It takes a lot of preparation,it takes consideration, it takes
a lot of thinking and it takespeople.
(44:35):
You need to engage.
We talked about leadership.
You need to engage the peoplearound you, your network, and
all that is hard work can bevery uncomfortable, can be very
unpleasant, can be veryuncomfortable, can be very
unpleasant, but I'm convincedthat the outcome, the
opportunities which lay beyondthose boundaries of our comfort
zone, are so big that theyoutweigh the risks on the way
(44:57):
there, if we are willing toinvest the energy and the
resources to plan it properly.
And, as you said, there's stillunknowns, there's still
vulnerabilities along the way.
But if you've covered howevermany of your bases, I think
you'll be just fine.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
Well, that might be the perfect way to end this
podcast episode, but I will askyou one more question.
We've touched on sailing, yourlove of coaching, leadership, I
think.
You love to travel, you love tolearn languages.
Are there any other Ikigaisources?
(45:36):
I don't know about.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
No, you know them all , but maybe the listeners to
this podcast don't know yet thatI'm an avid practitioner of
yoga.
That's right, yoga is really onthe yoga mat, where you find me
every day.
That's where the yoke betweenmind, body and my breathing come
together.
So that is a big source of whoI am as well, nice, I might have
(46:03):
to get into that.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
So yeah, I've learned so much from you, martin, and
really appreciate you and ourfriendship.
So thank you so much for yourtime today.
Arigato, arigato, ne, okay jane.
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