May 8, 2024 • 63 mins
Have you heard of the Mother of Ikigai
While ikigai has gained recognition in the West, few are aware of the significant contributions made by Mieko Kamiya to its study. Who exactly is Mieko Kamiya, and what impact has she had on the study of ikigai
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, join Nick and Kei Tsuda as they explore the life and remarkable achievements of Mieko Kamiya.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Another observation I'm making is I think Miyako
Kamiya was already exposed to alot of cultures and sold the
world, and if you bringourselves back to today, that's
what's happening with a lot ofyoung people Now.
They may not be going to places, but through the devices and
(00:20):
social networks and YouTube andwhatever else, and social
networks and YouTube andwhatever else, they're seeing so
many different cultures and youknow options.
Now the problem is some of themare made up, it's like fake,
(00:41):
and they're basically somewhatblown away by it.
And you said it today, thereare so many options now that I
think our young people aresomewhat struggling to make up
their mind as to what is goingto be their Ikigai at
(01:11):
ikigaitribecom On this episodeof the Ikigai podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Kay Suter, ikigai scholar, researcher, blogger and
facilitator of the LinkedInStudy Group, returns to talk
about the mother of Ikigai.
Scholar, researcher, bloggerand facilitator of the LinkedIn
study group, returns to talkabout the mother of Ikigai.
Welcome back, kay.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Thank you very much, Nick.
Pleasure to be back.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, good to see you , as always.
So do you want to give us anupdate on what you've been doing
and what you've been doing onyour research with Ikigai and
what you've been doing on yourresearch?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
with Ikigai.
So I've been reading a lot ofbooks, and I tend to read a set
of English books and Japanesebooks like side by side.
Okay, so recently there was abig hype on this book called the
Anxious Generation by JonathanHaidt, I see.
So I had to read up on that tokind of catch the discussions
(02:09):
that's going on in the world.
I've also read well, I startedreading.
Actually, the Mindful Body iswritten by Ellen Langer, and
this is her latest book that waswritten last year.
Okay, then I'm reading up on,of course, mieko Kamiya's works
(02:32):
and you know, I know we aregoing to discuss Ikigai Nitsuite
at some point but she's alsowritten a book called Kokoro no
Tabi, and also she has acollection of works that's been
published as a book called theObservation of the Human Beings,
(02:54):
I guess.
So those books I've beenreading up and trying to come up
with a few blog posts and maybepodcasts of my own to share
with the Ikigai Study Group.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Nice, You'll have to share notes on those two books
on Kamiya.
So Kokoro no Tabi.
So that would be the heart'strip or journey.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I would like to translate it as like a journey
of your mind, or journey of yourheart.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
And ningen no mitsumete that's finding.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, it's basically observing.
I mean, observing sounds alittle more scientific.
Mitsumete is more like, youknow, like a focusing on,
focusing on To be speaking right.
So I think she was asked bysome folks that, hey, we would
like to publish a book based onsome of the articles and columns
(03:56):
that she's written way backwhen she was around, and she's
agreed to kind of packagetogether a collection of them.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Okay, she ended up writing package together a
collection of them.
Okay, she ended up writingquite a few number of books.
I think there's somethingcalled the Cameo Collection.
Yes, it's all her works intoone volume.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And I think Kokoro no Tabi is part of it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Okay, yeah, because I think she started writing quite
late in her mid-40s.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, that's the thing.
She started late and she didn'tstay around for us too long, so
her collection isn't that vast,but I think in my mind a lot of
her thoughts are distilled downand encapsulated into these
three, four works.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, on the next episode, we'll look at her
seminal book Ikigai Nitsuhite indetail, but today I thought
we'd talk about the woman who Ilike to refer to as the mother
of Ikigai and how she is clearlyunder-recognized, not
well-known, but she was Japan'spioneering researcher on the
(05:08):
Ikigai concept and I think weboth agree in that she deserves
more recognition.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So I'll give a bit of an introduction and then we'll,
I guess, talk about her life.
So she was the daughter of awealthy I guess, diplomat,
socially elite parents and theyactually opposed her choice of
becoming a doctor, and I thinkit was a real battle for her to
become a doctor and her parentstrying to stop her becoming a
(05:37):
doctor.
And she had this desire to helpthose suffering from mental
disorders and also, morefamously, lepers, and she also
became an author later in herlife.
I see her as a woman of manyroles and talents.
Not only was she a psychiatristand author, she was also a
(05:57):
translator, and she also had tobe a housewife and mother of two
children.
She spoke and taught severalforeign languages, including
French and English, and as atranslator, she translated
Marcus Aurelius' meditationsinto Japanese, I think, from
Greek.
She taught psychiatry atseveral Japanese universities
(06:20):
and she was also a private tutorto the princess Michiko, who
served as the Empress' consortuntil 2019.
I think she tutored her beforeshe married into the royal
family.
So quite an amazing CV it is.
So how well known is she inJapan today?
Speaker 1 (06:43):
So some people, of course, know them, but I asked
my mother, actually, but shedidn't recognize the name and,
of course, my mother is of theage that she would have not
directly but have heard of herif she was on TV back in the
(07:04):
1960s and 70s.
But she didn't recognize.
So I think for those people whoare interested in psychiatry
psychology, I'm sure she hasbeen well known, but in Japan
her name may not be as widelyknown as other giants in the
field.
But something happened in 2018,and the Japanese broadcast
(07:31):
network NHK did a specialprogram on her work and life,
and I suspect that was becausethe attention to Ikigai was
coming back right around 2016and 17.
So on the tv show they did atwo kind of back-to-back
(07:51):
episodes on her background andher line of work, and I'm sure
that brought some attention backto, you know, herself and
ikigai as a topic I actually sawthose.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I saw two of the episodes on youtube, but they're
now no longer available and Ithink you have.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
They're behind a paywall now yeah they put out
paywall, but you can still watchit.
It was quite good.
I watched it before it was.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Uh, it became that paid subscription yeah, I
believe at the time when shepublished her book it did become
a bestseller.
I'm not sure what that reallymeans in Japan, how many sales
that equates to, but it is.
Yeah, I guess it's a bitstrange that no one seems to
(08:40):
know her.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So there's one exception I think seems to know
her.
So there's one exception Ithink is among the folks called
the Ikigai Development Advisorin Japan.
So that's the program I'm goingthrough myself right now, to
become a certified health, andIkigai Development Advisor is
what they are called and intheir textbook prominently
(09:05):
features Mieko Kamiya herselfand the works of the Ikigai
Nitsute.
And with that in mind, I thinkthere is a little bit of a
thinking that Ikigai is forelderly or for people who's aged
more.
Yeah, that sentiment is sort ofthere and we don't necessarily
(09:27):
hear too often about ikigaiamong, let's say, young Japanese
, say college students andothers.
I mean, it is commonly usedword, as we've been saying all
along, but how often do they usewill probably differ by age.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, touching on these health and ikigai
development advisors in Japan.
So you're currently taking theprogram and you're in Japan and
you're going through it.
So how was it when youdiscovered they featured her
work specifically?
I know they mentioned herikigai needs and her definition
(10:03):
and also the characteristicsIkigai needs and her definition
and also the characteristics sowas that sort of refreshing and
I guess, something youcelebrated Like, oh, they're
recognizing her work.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
It was enlightening to see her work is actually
being used in something morepractical or programmed that
designed to prompt action yeah.
Or program that's designed toprompt action yeah, Because in
the Western world there's a lotof how-to or self-care books and
everything out.
Well, here it is.
I think the ikigai-nitsuiteconcept is being used and kind
of integrated into some of theactivities that can be planned
(10:43):
and executed among, in this case, the retirees and elderlies in
Japan.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yes, so briefly touching on this role of being a
health and ikigai advisor, whatI understand is, as you know,
I've got the workbooks myself.
I managed to get my cousin toget copies of the workbooks.
That is really geared forretirees transitioning from a
work life to a new sort ofsocial life where they can serve
(11:10):
their community.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yes, that is correct and really the theme is about
how do we be proactive about thehyper well, that's the word I'm
using, but I think thatappropriate word is super aged
or super aging society.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Aren't they forecasting this significant
increase in centenarians overthe next 20, 30 years?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Well, the irony of it all is that by the time I you
know if I'm around enough, youknow long enough to be a
centenarian I will be makingpart of that peaking effect of
the population, because I'mwhat's called the second wave of
the baby boomers in Japan, Isee.
(11:58):
So the year I was born, therewas, I think, 3 million children
were born, and ever since thattime the number has reduced and
nowadays it doesn't even hitlike 900,000 per year, I see.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, it's aging population but decreasing birth
rate.
But that's a good answer,that's it.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I mean, it's a lot of aging people who are living
longer and then the birth ratehas gone down, so there's less
and less young people cominginto the world to support the
rest of us.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, there you go.
Yeah, that was really, I guess,gratifying or satisfying for me
when I found out oh, her work'sbeing featured in these
workbooks Because, as you know,I use her ikigai needs in my own
program.
So I thought I'm using theright stuff in my own
certification course.
So that was like a win for me.
(12:56):
Yes, I'm doing the right thing.
So let's return to the subjectof Mikko Kamiya and her life.
She had a very unconventionalchildhood and in the fourth
grade she moved with her familyto Geneva, switzerland, her
father being a diplomat, and sheattended I think it's
Jean-Jacques Rousseau'sInstitute, which I think is
(13:18):
quite famous and that providedher with a specialised, unique
education.
And that provided her with aspecialised, unique education.
And there she enjoyed schoollife as well as the beauty of
nature in Switzerland itself.
She was there for three yearsand during those three years she
actually became morecomfortable using the French
language than Japanese.
(13:38):
I guess that's where she gotexposure to languages, where she
got exposure to languages.
But she also had some struggleduring this time in her life
because she was being singledout as a child of high society
and she became acutely awarethat she was, I guess, different
and being judged simply becauseshe came from a wealthy or
(14:03):
affluent family.
And, interestingly, she grewashamed of her status as a high
member of the high-ranking elite.
And, yeah, at such a young ageshe became aware or paid
attention to individuals whowere not as wealthy or as
fortunate as her, and I findthat fascinating.
(14:25):
And in her book she wrote thereis no denying that my brief
stay in Switzerland has left anindelible mark on me.
I've become un-Japanese.
Even today, it is in Frenchthat I think, read and write
with the greatest ease, and I'mstill inclined towards European
(14:46):
culture.
So that's something she wrotemuch later in life.
So this, this time in Geneva,had a lasting impact on her.
Yes, what are your thoughtsabout that?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
so I can draw a lot of correlations to what I
discuss or my daughters arebringing up.
It has to do with the timing oftheir upbringing and the
location, place and, of course,the language.
So I believe Miyako Kamiyaspent good enough years in
(15:20):
Switzerland, the French region,the speaking region of
Switzerland, so our mind and thethinking was already kind of
formed using that particularlanguage.
And there is actually anotherstudy that shows that if you
spend your adolescence, let'ssay like between the age of nine
(15:44):
to 14 years of age, in someplace, that environment is going
to have the biggest impact inyour character and identity
development.
And that is so true because Ican relate to this un-Japanese
feeling, because both of mydaughters say, especially when
(16:06):
they visit Japan, they do feelthis un-Japanese-ness.
They know they look likeJapanese and they understand the
language, they can speak prettywell too, but something that
nags them and say I'm not trulyJapanese is how they feel.
Now the funny contrast ismyself, and of course my wife
(16:30):
also, have lived in Japan until,let's say, the age of 15 and 16
.
Then moved to the US and spenta lot of years.
Then moved to the US and spenta lot of years.
We actually still think we areJapanese and we don't have much
of this un-Japanese feeling.
When visiting Japan or evenbeing outside of Japan, we kind
(16:51):
of recognize ourselves oridentify ourselves as Japanese.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So we have this firsthand experience of knowing
what this un-Japanese businessis they're perceived as Japanese
(17:24):
, and maybe when Japanese findout, oh, you're not really
Japanese, it must be hard forthem to navigate those
interactions.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So they're older now and they can honestly articulate
some of their feelings and whatthey're thinking about in this
kind of subject.
And they say that it is alittle bit of this fear that
when the Japanese personapproaches them and talks to
them, when I'm going to uncoveror disclose that I'm not truly
(18:01):
Japanese, and is that certainlevel of fear that they feel?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
It reminds me of this idea of purity that comes to
mind with Japanese nationalityor Japanese-ness.
And yeah, I'm not sure if it'sa good thing, this idea of pure
(18:25):
Japanese.
I think famously it came outwith Naomi Osaka when she
started winning Grand Slams andshe was representing Japan, and
I think there was some debate inthe media as to, you know,
whether she really Japanesebecause she grew up in the
States and all that sort ofthing.
(18:45):
Was that a concern for you andyour wife with your children and
how they'd be perceivedeventually when you take them to
Japan?
Or did you just think this is anormal part of our family and
you didn't worry too much aboutit To?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
tell the truth, we didn't think ahead or think that
farther into the future, right.
So when they were growing up, Iwanted to make sure they
understood the Japanese way ofgrowing up to a certain extent.
So I almost forced them to goback to Japan every summer
(19:22):
during the grade school and theywent to school with their
cousins for two to three weeks.
So they understand, you knowhow to get together and serve
meals right for lunch, and inJapan, japanese schools, you
also know that the kids clean upafter themselves, and every day
(19:44):
they clean every portion of theschool grounds too.
So they've had those kinds ofexperience and exposure.
But it didn't carry enough.
I don't know the power tocreate an identity.
I don't know the power tocreate an identity.
This identity itself was stillcoming from where they lived,
(20:06):
which is the United States.
But now I think we canappreciate those kind of things,
as you know as, hopefully,daughters and parents and do
something about it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Well, let's return to Kamiya's life and her first
encounter with lepers, which hadthis strong influence, this
profound influence on her.
It was in 1933 and a few monthsafter graduating high school,
at a Christian meeting with heruncle she was there to play the
(20:40):
organ.
She saw these people, or thesepatients with leprosy, and it
shocked her initially.
Some were legless, armless andothers had these serious skin
inflammation.
But she was moved and impressedby the devoted care and
professionalism of a nursecalled Chiyo Mikami, and this
(21:04):
made her think that she toocould and should dedicate
herself to the sick.
And later, in another book, herautobiography Henneki, which I
think means Wanderings, shewrote in 1979, she said, or she
wrote I would like to work forthese patients like her, this is
(21:26):
just the place where I shouldwork.
This strong will welled up inmy mind the only place where I
can stay is where people mournand suffer.
I made up my mind in a flash.
So so this is someone who's 19.
Yeah, I have to do the math too, yeah, so what are your
(21:47):
thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Immediately, my thought was like what was I
doing when I was 19?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, I was probably worried about something else.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, I was still in school, and it just so happens,
I think, when I was probablyworried about something else,
yeah, I was still in school, andit just so happens, I think
when I was 19, as part of myschool program, I was visiting
Australia.
I did a summer study, oractually winter study, in
Australia back then.
Okay, study in Australia backthen.
(22:21):
So my probably thinking is okay, I'm trying to become a
mechanical engineer.
What would I do after Igraduate?
That's probably the most Iwould have thought about the
future.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I think I was working in kitchens or just looking for
work, so I certainly wasn'tthinking of helping others, I
was more focused on myself.
So it's quite profound becauseI mean leprosy at the time and
for many decades was considereda shameful disease and we we
(22:53):
kind of know the history of howlepers were treated right in
japan and I guess in most othercountries too.
And here she is, at 19, havingthis desire to work with them
and this sort of compassion orwanting to understand their
suffering, so quite unique andmature and compassionate, well
(23:16):
beyond her years.
And then she had her own healthissues with tuberculosis and
after her education, her schooleducation, her secondary
education, at the age of 21, shewas diagnosed with having
tuberculosis and she was luckyin that her parents owned a
(23:37):
cottage in Karuizawa, that'srelatively close to Tokyo.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, and that's well known to be kind of the summer
getaway place for the wealthy.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I see.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
From the old days and today.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yes, and so, with permission of her family and
doctor, she was allowed to livethere alone and immersed herself
in reading English literature,including Shakespeare, books on
English history and linguistics.
And while she was recuperatingshe actually studied for a
national examination for ateacher's certificate in higher
(24:14):
education.
And, yeah, she recovered andthen also took the examination
and passed.
So quite the academic.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
But then the following year she contracted
tuberculosis again and thisobviously made her realise, you
know, about her own mortality,that she could die.
And she returned to the cottageand then, amazingly, she taught
herself Greek and Latin, readthese classic literature works
(24:47):
by Plato and Homer and so on,and somehow managed to read and
translate Marcus Aurelius'Meditations.
So you're thinking, how's thatpossible?
I mean back then, in what the19, would have been in what the
1930s, I think?
Yeah.
So tuberculosis gave her thetime and freedom to study what
(25:11):
she was interested in and I findit astonishing that she could
teach herself Greek and Latinand then translate Marcus
Aurelius' meditations.
So, yeah, she was quite thestudent.
I think she was quite unique.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Absolutely.
And again, she may have hadquite a bit of influence from
her upbringing and the fact thatshe continued to think in
French.
I guess over the years I thinkthat kind of the fondness
towards the European culture wasalready ingrained in her.
(25:46):
So I bet she didn't even feelany stress learning these
additional languages or readingthese you know great works of
the past.
So she kind of probably foundher ikigai already at that point
, whether she realized that ornot, right?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.
So obviously it was a very goodway for her to spend her time
while recovering.
And then I think, through herstudies, kami was also
attempting to discover not onlythe meaning of life itself but
more specifically how she shoulduse the rest of her own life
with this.
I guess this discovery,specifically how she should use
the rest of her own life withthis, I guess this discovery
that you know, she might have ashort life with the illnesses
(26:27):
she was having.
And then it was written that bydevoting herself to reading the
classics, she was able toforget her worries and the fear
of death.
And this anxiety was furthereased by her eventual recovery
of tuberculosis.
So I guess these bouts oftuberculosis gave Kamara a
glimpse into her own mortality,and I think it's well known,
(26:51):
feeling close to death makes onefeel close to life also.
So do you think this is whenshe started to think about
Ikigai in general and maybe whather Ikigai could be?
Speaker 1 (27:04):
My thought about that is she probably was starting to
get interested in people's mindor even her own mind at that
point.
So maybe her interest forpsychiatry maybe already coming
together.
It could include Ikigai, butit's more towards okay,
understanding how the mind worksis probably more of that
(27:30):
interest or the intriguing pointthat she was discovering using
herself as the subject.
And another interesting thingabout is you know, I've seen
this with other people too butwhen you are having an illness
there's kind of two ways to goabout it.
One is really concerned aboutthe illness itself, trying to do
(27:53):
everything possible so that youget kind of sucked into the
illness itself.
But then in her case it's theother way.
She's basically trying to usethat kind of time affluence in a
creative, positive way and thathelped her overcome the illness
(28:17):
itself.
And we've seen those thingsover and over, I think, in other
people.
But one more thing is I thinkit's the timing of her illness
too.
When people are young and havethis kind of illness, they kind
of are forced to look at theirfuture.
There's not much to look backin their past or not much of the
(28:38):
accomplishment right past ornot much of the accomplished
accomplishment right.
So in a way, themselves or thepeople around them will tend to
point them towards the future.
But unfortunately situation'snot that helpful for people who
are like middle-aged or maybeyou know our age.
If we become super ill, then westart to kind of latch on to
(29:03):
those accomplishments and thingsin the past and that might
drive us farther down into thehands of the illness.
Yeah, so I think in a way.
I mean she was unlucky to haveTB, but the timing of her
illness also actually workedtowards forming her life
(29:26):
perspective for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, I guess in a way she could have, and I guess
we could interpret that it gaveher this clarity and direction
on what she wanted to do withher life and directional that
she wanted to do with her life,and gave her this yo-yo, this
freedom or time to study.
Yeah, this time affluence tostudy, and it sounded like she
(29:52):
was quite a natural at languages, maybe going back to her time
in Geneva, and obviously she wasincredibly well-read too.
Yes, yeah.
So after she recovered in 1938,again with her family, they all
moved to New York and there sheentered Columbia University to
(30:16):
study classical Greek.
So that's quite a niche subject.
And at this time her father wasaware that she wanted to become
a doctor and obviously wastelling her no, you know, you
can't do that.
Then one day she went to a fair, the 1938 World Fair in New
(30:38):
York, and she stood for hourswith her eyes fastened on
specimens of human anatomy inthis medical pavilion and her
father, observing this, realized, okay, his daughter really
cares about this and really hasthis incredible desire to study
medicine.
So he gave her permission to doso, on the condition that she
(31:00):
would not go into the field ofleprosy.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
So there's going to be more on this later.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
And so yeah, camille happily changed her major from
classical Greek to medicine, butsecretly kept her determination
to work with lepers, obviouslyconcealed.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Her father should never have put that condition in
place.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So you have two daughters, Kay.
Can you relate to thefather-daughter relationship?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, yeah, my daughters act like that too.
If I set some kind of condition, of course they'll come up with
ways to go around it.
I'm sure.
No one thing I'm kind of drawinga correlation is the fact that
it's not something we say thatimpacts our children, and it
(31:53):
doesn't matter if it's adaughter or son, you have a son,
it's what we do, you know, evenbefore they're bored.
That impacts their life, andI've come to that realization a
little late, with help from mydaughters.
I guess they are pointing thatout for me, our younger folks
(32:19):
who are considering to maybemove to some other places, place
to do work or live.
Well, it's time to startthinking about okay, what would
that do if you're planning tohave children to your kids?
To be honest, I never had thatkind of thought.
(32:40):
I was so focused on where I'mgoing to bring myself and learn
the subject I wanted to learnand find a job, that I wanted to
have a job.
But then fast forward to nowall those actions that I've
taken does have an impact on mychildren, does have an impact on
(33:02):
my children and that's part ofthe reason that they're coming
up with multiple identities intheir mind.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah, it's a valid point.
Our own life, well beforethey're born, has some influence
.
Yeah and obviously me marrying aJapanese and then having my son
in Japan.
If I thought about it, yeah, Imean, I wouldn't have probably
really known at the time, but itwould add, I guess, both these
(33:31):
sort of unique opportunities.
But also there's, you know,been, I guess, not so much
problems but concerns we had tomake decisions on.
You know, where do we educateour son?
And in Australia, where there'sa multicultural, he's kind of a
normal person, but in Japan hewas always going to sort of
stand out as being half and wehad to make decisions based on
(33:55):
those things.
And I never considered thosethings before, you know, before,
even when I was married, sortof only after that he was born,
yeah.
So it's interesting how theseyou fall in love and get married
and then you have thesedecisions to make, these really
(34:17):
important decisions because theyinvolve these little people in
your life.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, and I think Japan is a bit I don't know
what's the word to use unique or, you know, outlier of an
environment, because you knowyou kind of touched on this
earlier how kind of amonoculturalistic or the
consideration of like a who whois truly japanese right kind of
(34:47):
gets into play.
Where united states, australia,it's already somewhat mixed
culture at different degrees.
Now those cultures have theirown issues too.
You know, with okay, is thereracism and so on and so forth.
Well, japan's form of thechallenge is really this concept
(35:07):
that you know what's thedefinition of true Japanese and
even you know today I'm reallyexcited to see a lot of us you
brought up Naomi Osaka earlierbut a lot of the sports players
(35:27):
who has basically parents fromJapan and non-Japanese countries
now, and their names andeverything is also starting to
show that fact and I think ouryounger generations, I'm hoping,
are going to basically takethat as normal.
Yeah Right, you can have peoplewho doesn't look like Japanese
(35:50):
to be in a under U23 soccer teamwho, by the way, who just made
their Olympics participationtoday or yesterday, and in the
roster will include people whodoes not look like traditional
Japanese and that's okay or thatshould be normal moving forward
(36:11):
.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
I think it will be and hopefully my son will go to
Japan and will feel he's a partof the country and hopefully he
won't be continually asked wherehe's from or where his parents
are, or that sort of.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
That's going to still continue to some extent.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
We just have to get used to.
So, returning to cammy's lifeagain after, uh, I think
obviously her family probablyhad to move back to japan
because of um, you know, the theonset of the Pacific War before
the Pacific War.
After things were clear thatwar was on their doorstep.
So she returned to Tokyo andfinished her medical studies and
(37:05):
a year before her graduation,kami asked the National Leprosy
Area to allow her to go there aspart of a research project to
learn about leprosy and to alsomeet someone, I guess a pioneer
authority in the field ofleprosy, mitsuda Kensuke, and I
(37:26):
think they formed a pretty goodworking relationship.
So she was there for 12 daysand she was shocked to find the
conditions at this leprosariumwere horrible no effective
medicines, no suitabletreatments and most of the
patients were suffering frommalnutrition.
And yeah, because of all of this, she felt this greater sense of
(37:49):
responsibility towards thepatients and she actually wrote
a poem about it that I found atranslation of, and this was
what she wrote, I think,probably in her diary why you
lepers, not I, you carry all theburdens lepers carry.
Being deprived of all thatmakes a comfortable life.
(38:10):
You are constantly in torment,agony and desperation.
I promise you that I will standby you, support you and comfort
you, pray to God for you everynight and morning.
But at the same time I feelguilty about mentioning all
these sweet words because theysound vain to you.
You, lippers, are the ones whoreally know what hardship is.
(38:33):
Yeah, so quite profound againthat she had this deep affinity
or compassion.
Why do you think she had thisconnection to lepers?
Why did she feel so stronglytowards them?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
I think it is the combination of, you know, the
fact that she's already formedthis highly nuanced,
multicultural kind of mind, mind, was you know two or more kind
of value structures already atthat point.
Second is, I think that her ownexperience was tuberculosis,
(39:13):
yeah, and the fact that she'salready realized how, you know,
she was in the elite group andshe was given the type of care
and options of going to these,you know, karuizawa and other
places to, you know, get better,yeah, I think she must have
contrasted that with theexperience of the lepers well,
(39:38):
it's amazing she um didn't takeall her opportunities and wealth
for granted.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
She could somehow found it in her to be
compassionate, understanding,because I think very few people
would, you know, have the heartthat she had.
And then, moving on at theleprosarium, she began to hope
she could work there and devoteherself to these leprosy
patients.
And again she faced oppositionfrom her father and, you know,
(40:07):
basically he said no.
So her decision was overruledand I think this caused a lot of
frustration in life and in herlater life she wrote about her
frustration.
So between the years of 1944 to1949, she did become a student
of psychiatry at the Universityof Tokyo.
(40:28):
There she married her futurehusband, kamiya Noburo.
They got married in 1946.
And for the next decade sheplayed the role of housewife and
mother, while also teachingforeign languages and correcting
the English language papers ofher husband and his students.
(40:48):
And she did not like that.
So in several diary entries from1954, she expressed her
frustration at being unable topursue perhaps her most
important source of ikigai dueto these commitments.
She wrote every day I get sofrustrated with my English
correction to the point I wantto kill myself.
(41:11):
Is life the experience of doingthings you don't want to do.
How long do I have to be alanguage teacher?
Languages you are the curse ofme.
If I spend so much time onthese things, I will never be
able to stand on my own as apsychiatrist.
I don't know how many times Ihave the thought of giving up my
(41:31):
full-time job and becoming alecturer.
How can I manage theresponsibilities of a full-time
job, my family and my studies?
It's a very human thing to do.
Oh God, please give me thestrength I need to climb these
mountains forever and ever andever and ever.
So very frustrated writing thatdiary entry.
(41:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, and this was taking place at the post-war
Japan too.
Right, the war ended around1945.
So the country was in the modeof rebuilding, trying to find
its footings, and that's whenshe was also trying to find her
footings.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Which is kind of interesting.
It kind of you know thoseoverlaps, but those words and
the struggle is something that Ithink a lot of the folks, even
today, especially the mothers,will probably share.
I mean, it's been 50, 60 yearssince her time and the household
(42:36):
responsibilities and how thosethings are arranged, especially
in Japan, I think still has along way to go.
Yeah, so in a way she wasalready kind of pointing out the
movement that's kind of laterbecome the feminist movement,
also the rights for women in.
(42:59):
Japan, even though I don't thinkthere's any record of her being
directly participating in thoseactivities.
But I'm sure she may haveinfluenced a lot of folks who
may have come up, grown afterher, to voice their perspectives
, a lot of folks who may havecome up, you know, grown after
her to, you know, voice theirperspectives on these matters.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, I also think the entry indicates this
struggle from a lack of shimekanlike a sense of purpose.
And you know some people mightthink, wow, she was already
successful in achieving so manythings and, who knows, maybe
someone in her position mighthave enjoyed correcting English
(43:44):
and teaching languages, but itobviously didn't give her the
sense of purpose she was seeking, obviously related to
psychiatry and helping lepers.
And there is a book, abiography on her life, called A
Woman with Demons, and I was abit shocked by the title of the
(44:05):
book, but it was inspiredactually by one of her diary
entries where she said you know,my demons are raging again
today and she was frustratedwith life.
And yeah, she had thisincredible desire to you know,
my demons are raging again todayand she was frustrated with
life.
And yeah, she had thisincredible desire to, you know,
really do something with herlife and help others, help
others less fortunate than her.
(44:26):
But she also suffered a lot ofloss and pain.
So she even had several decadesof depression due to the loss
of her first love.
She fell in love with a youngman who was one of her brother's
friends and she really didn'teven know him.
She kind of just only had a fewencounters with him but fell in
(44:47):
love with him and he died oftuberculosis, I think.
Then she battled, obviously,multiple illnesses tuberculosis,
later cancer and she obviouslylived almost two decades, or at
least a decade, living with thefrustration of not being able to
pursue work as a scholar andwriter, and also the battle she
(45:10):
had with her father on wantingto help lepers.
So I think we could say shestruggled in her life with a
lack of ikigai for extendedperiods of time.
So do you think all these lifeexperiences and all this
frustration helped herunderstand the multidimensional
nature of ikigai?
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Surely right.
More certainly, I know we'll bediscussing ikigai nitsuite, the
book, in another episode, butthe way she writes the book, yes
, she does use the phrases as ifshe's kind of uncovered the
phrase is as if she's kind ofuncovered it through certain
(45:54):
studies, but I feel that she isincluding her own experiences
over it, even though she doesn'tclearly state those things.
So you know, especially so thereis, I don't know, can I bring
up a passage from the bookPeople know this is not about
(46:14):
the book so there's a passagewhere she says right, so the
people encounter obstacles akinto wolves blocking their path in
different forms and atdifferent times throughout their
lives, and they come to realizetheir power.
Those wolves are reallypowerful.
Come to realize their power.
(46:37):
Those walls are really powerful.
At such moments, the issue offinding Ikigai inevitably arises
Is a life filled with suchsadness and suffering still
worth living?
What should one live for fromnow on?
And to your point, I think thiswas in her mind, if not all the
(46:58):
time, a lot of the time overthe course of her life.
And another thing I'm kind ofdrawing a correlation to is
based on some of the readingsI've been doing is that it's the
concept of resilience.
Right, you know psychologistsand others cover it, but I think
(47:20):
this Ikigai perspective is verysimilar to how the concept of
resilience is discussed todaythat the more often you
encounter these kind of lifesituations, the more resilient
you encounter these kind of lifesituations, the more resilient
you become.
So, essentially, the people whoface the disadvantages and
(47:42):
challenges in their lifesituations especially like
earlier in their life tend todevelop resilience much faster,
and that's, I think, what tookplace here with Miyako Kamiya
herself.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yes, I've spoken to several researchers, who one in
particular relates ikigai I meanto intrinsic motivation, but
also existential positivepsychology and this idea of
bouncing back or overcoming achallenge.
Or even in the midst of goingthrough a challenge, you begin
to understand what matters toyou and you can feel ikigai
(48:22):
through the challenge.
And then, once you've overcomethe challenge, under reflection
you realize that challenge, thatsuffering was, was worth it
because it uncovered my Ikigai,or it made me a stronger person
and I discovered things Ithought I wasn't capable of.
I guess an easy life, a simpleeasy life, wouldn't uncover
(48:48):
these different sources ofIkigai or we wouldn't gain this
resilience, right?
So, yeah, I always like to sayyou guys, it's not about you
know, really, it's not abouthappiness.
Happiness is a byproduct ofIkigai, but it's a meaningful
life and I guess to have ameaningful life we have to be
(49:09):
challenged every once in a while.
That's right.
And Kamiya obviously wanting tofind meaning through this desire
to work with lepers, eventuallyhad the opportunity to
undertake a research project in1956 that gave her this
opportunity to return to a placecalled Nakashima ASEAN, which
(49:31):
was an island where lepers wereshipped to.
Returned to a place calledNakashima ASEAN, which was an
island where lepers were shippedto, and I think we mentioned
before when she went there forthe first time she was shocked
by the conditions they had sinceimproved and there she did
(49:51):
research that eventually led toher writing her dissertation to
find employment as a professorand then I think this gave her
the freedom to then become anauthor and write her seminal
book.
So this opportunity was apsychiatric study and survey of
lepers, and so she went therereally to interview lepers and
(50:15):
they were given questionnairesand psychological tests and her
research revealed an importantissue related to psychological
aspects and treatments of ofleprosy for these patients, and
what stood out was this sense ofmeaninglessness that so many of
the patients felt about theirlives and their widespread
(50:38):
despair about their future.
So no future because of thisdisease and, yes, despite them.
I mean all their basic needswere met, apparently.
So they had shelter, food,clothing, but, yeah, they didn't
have much more than that, but Ithink we'll talk about this
(50:58):
later.
But she found some of thesepatients could find a sense of
meaning in Ikigai, despite, youknow, lacking, I guess, a sense
of purpose or lacking theopportunity to find a sense of
purpose or find sources ofIkigai.
So we'll talk about her book onthe next episode.
But eventually this did lead toher father's approval and after
(51:23):
the research project and at thistime she was a mother of young
children she finally gotapproval from her father to go
and, do you know, work withlepers.
So she she won that battle inthe end.
That was in um 1957.
So a brief summary of her workthere.
(51:44):
She worked for about 15 yearsthere, from 57 to 1972.
She usually worked every otherweekend.
She would sometimes work therefor a full week during summer
vacations to cover colleagueswho were, I guess, on holidays,
and she became the chief doctorin psychiatry and, yeah, spent
(52:05):
quite a bit of time there and itwas also very far from where
she lived.
I think she would take a trainand then have to take a ferry or
a boat to the island.
So quite a lot of work involvedfor this commitment.
And also she had children andso she was.
(52:26):
This reminds me of GordonMatthews and the podcast I did
with him and he said you know,Eureka guy, he believes E Ikigai
is ultimately one thing Is ityour work or is it your family?
And it does sound like Kamiyawas, you know, leaning on one
more than the other.
And it was her work.
She desperately wanted to dothis work.
(52:50):
Yeah, so Ikigai can result in,I think, difficult choices,
because meaningful role, a veryimportant role of a mother, but
also this desire to help others.
So I guess we're sometimesfaced with choices of ikigai.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, and there's something to think about in
today's world, right?
So I mean, when she was growingand also, you know, working
with lepers this is still thetime that again, you said it
travel was not that quick.
This is before Shinkansen orthe bullet train, so there's no
(53:33):
like well, hop on the train anhour and a half and you go right
200 miles or 300 kilometers.
It's not that it took a lotmore effort.
Another observation I'm makingis I think Miyako Kamiya was
already exposed to a lot ofcultures and sold the world, and
if you bring ourselves back totoday, that's what's happening
(53:57):
with a lot of young people Now.
They may not be going to places, but through the devices and
social networks and YouTube andwhatever else, they're seeing so
many different cultures andoptions.
You know options.
Now the problem is some of themare made up yes, it's like fake
(54:20):
and they are basically somewhatthrown away.
I mean blown away by it, andyou said it today.
There are so many options nowthat I think our young people
are somewhat struggling to makeup their mind as to what is
(54:41):
going to be their ikigai.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Right.
It's kind of like walkingthrough a supermarket aisle, and
I'm going to use the Americanexample on this one.
You go to a cereal aisle andyou see so many different
options.
Or in Japan it's equivalentwould be you try to pick a tea
(55:07):
at a convenience store.
There are so many differentoptions, and then you just kind
of have to stop and say, okay,what do I want and for what
reason?
Yeah, and that's what'shappening, I think.
I think the situation is in thepast there was fewer options
and that may have createdchallenges, but today I think
(55:29):
it's the opposite it's too muchoptions or too much information
that's made available,especially the younger people.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
I agree totally.
I think we could call it theparadox of choice Too many that
you choose none, and thenthere's a lot of distraction
with this ability to watch anykind of entertainment through
multiple screens anywhere youknow, and one concern I had as a
(56:03):
father was will my son lose hiscreativeness?
and well, you know all this timeon screens or steal time that
he would use for creativity.
Fortunately he's quite creativeand he makes music, but he, I
(56:24):
guess as a parent I still haveconcerns about how much he is
attached to his phone, but itseems normal now.
But on this theme, actually oncreativity, that was something
Kamiya encouraged patients topursue or seek to sort of find
(56:44):
or express their ikigai.
And she encouraged the lepersto develop their creative
abilities by writingcompositions or poems, drawing
pictures and playing musicalinstruments so they could
release their sorrow and worriesand establish a meaningful
lifestyle within the lapisarium.
And she helped one of thepatients who was teaching
(57:06):
himself French and donatedmusical scores and instruments
to patients so they could takean interest in music.
And one of her patients, a man,a young man called Kochikondo,
who became a patient from theage of 11 and lost his eyesight
at 19, wrote the following aboutKamiya Dr Kamiya sometimes came
(57:31):
to our meetings, so the meetingfor blind patients.
As soon as she sat down at thetable, everybody got together to
talk to her and listen to her.
She spoke in a soft and kindway.
There was not any differencebetween her and us.
It was not merely sympathy orpity, but she was always.
(57:52):
But she always talked to us asif she were in the same
situation as we were.
She did not look down at us outof compassion at any time.
This is why I think dr camillewas really great.
So she yeah, it sounds like sheeventually did the work that
mattered to her and had thisbeautiful and positive impact on
(58:14):
these people.
And, yeah, she seems to matterto these people there.
So there is some perceptionthat she was the Mother Teresa
of lepers in Japan, which isprobably a romantic exaggeration
(58:39):
, but clearly this work wasimportant to her and perhaps I'm
not sure if it was a source ofikigai or if it was her
shimeikan, like a sense ofpurpose, or maybe it was both.
What do you think?
Or maybe it was both?
What do you think?
I think it was both.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
She certainly had this strong sense of purpose we
call it the shimeikan but alsoin the process of doing or
carrying out the tasks, I'm sureshe was feeling ikigai-tan.
Yeah, you said it before.
(59:21):
She had to travel a long waysto commute to locations.
Dealing with lepers or thepeople with different degree of
(59:43):
issues is not for thefaint-hearted.
I mean, you have to observethem on a daily basis.
You encounter new and maybeworse situation for these
patients, but somewhere, somehow, she doesn't have much writing
about her getting depressedabout the situation of these
(01:00:04):
patients or having beenfrustrated.
I don't think she's left muchof that kind of writing and that
kind of tells me that she wasreally feeling haekigai, as
she's engaging directly withthese patients.
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Well, she actually wrote on that.
So in 1972, when she was 57,kamiya retired from Nagashima, I
say because of failing health,and at the time she expressed
her feelings about the patientsat the leprosarium, I imagine,
in another diary entry and shewrote I feel a profound affinity
(01:00:47):
with the patients now.
It was my lifetime pleasurethat I could visit them for
about 15 years.
I might not have done much forthem, but it was an honour to be
a friend to them.
It deepened my conviction thatthe people whom we should care
about the most are the ones atthe bottom in society.
(01:01:08):
And yeah, it's interesting sherefers to them as friends.
It was an honour to be a friendto them.
So that was how she perceivedher relationship with them.
And after retirement Camillehad heart conditions and she was
(01:01:29):
hospitalised several times andshe still maintained her
correspondence with the patients, so obviously was writing
letters.
And then she died in 1978 ofheart failure at the age of 65.
So quite a young age if wethink about it, but quite a full
(01:01:56):
life.
Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah, in today's life expectancy that is quite young.
But just so you know, aroundthe wartime or the post-war
Japan, the average lifeexpectancy was actually around
that age 65.
Expectancy was actually aroundthat age 65.
It's only in 1980s and into the90s that Japanese started to
(01:02:20):
live longer and crossed the 80s.
Nowadays we're talking about 90and 100.
Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Yes, so quite an amazing person, and on the next
episode, we will explore herbook.
So I look forward to talkingwith you, kay.
On the next episode, we willexplore her book.
So I look forward to talkingwith you, kay, on the next
episode about Ikigai Nitsute,thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Thanks, nick, that was a pleasure.
Another observation I'm making is I think Miyako
Kamiya was already exposed to alot of cultures and sold the
world, and if you bringourselves back to today, that's
what's happening with a lot ofyoung people Now.
They may not be going to places, but through the devices and
(00:20):
social networks and YouTube andwhatever else, and social
networks and YouTube andwhatever else, they're seeing so
many different cultures and youknow options.
Now the problem is some of themare made up, it's like fake,
(00:41):
and they're basically somewhatblown away by it.
And you said it today, thereare so many options now that I
think our young people aresomewhat struggling to make up
their mind as to what is goingto be their Ikigai at
(01:11):
ikigaitribecom On this episodeof the Ikigai podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Kay Suter, ikigai scholar, researcher, blogger and
facilitator of the LinkedInStudy Group, returns to talk
about the mother of Ikigai.
Scholar, researcher, bloggerand facilitator of the LinkedIn
study group, returns to talkabout the mother of Ikigai.
Welcome back, kay.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Thank you very much, Nick.
Pleasure to be back.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Yeah, good to see you , as always.
So do you want to give us anupdate on what you've been doing
and what you've been doing onyour research with Ikigai and
what you've been doing on yourresearch?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
with Ikigai.
So I've been reading a lot ofbooks, and I tend to read a set
of English books and Japanesebooks like side by side.
Okay, so recently there was abig hype on this book called the
Anxious Generation by JonathanHaidt, I see.
So I had to read up on that tokind of catch the discussions
(02:09):
that's going on in the world.
I've also read well, I startedreading.
Actually, the Mindful Body iswritten by Ellen Langer, and
this is her latest book that waswritten last year.
Okay, then I'm reading up on,of course, mieko Kamiya's works
(02:32):
and you know, I know we aregoing to discuss Ikigai Nitsuite
at some point but she's alsowritten a book called Kokoro no
Tabi, and also she has acollection of works that's been
published as a book called theObservation of the Human Beings,
(02:54):
I guess.
So those books I've beenreading up and trying to come up
with a few blog posts and maybepodcasts of my own to share
with the Ikigai Study Group.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Nice, You'll have to share notes on those two books
on Kamiya.
So Kokoro no Tabi.
So that would be the heart'strip or journey.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, I would like to translate it as like a journey
of your mind, or journey of yourheart.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
And ningen no mitsumete that's finding.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, it's basically observing.
I mean, observing sounds alittle more scientific.
Mitsumete is more like, youknow, like a focusing on,
focusing on To be speaking right.
So I think she was asked bysome folks that, hey, we would
like to publish a book based onsome of the articles and columns
(03:56):
that she's written way backwhen she was around, and she's
agreed to kind of packagetogether a collection of them.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Okay, she ended up writing package together a
collection of them.
Okay, she ended up writingquite a few number of books.
I think there's somethingcalled the Cameo Collection.
Yes, it's all her works intoone volume.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
And I think Kokoro no Tabi is part of it.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Okay, yeah, because I think she started writing quite
late in her mid-40s.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, that's the thing.
She started late and she didn'tstay around for us too long, so
her collection isn't that vast,but I think in my mind a lot of
her thoughts are distilled downand encapsulated into these
three, four works.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, on the next episode, we'll look at her
seminal book Ikigai Nitsuhite indetail, but today I thought
we'd talk about the woman who Ilike to refer to as the mother
of Ikigai and how she is clearlyunder-recognized, not
well-known, but she was Japan'spioneering researcher on the
(05:08):
Ikigai concept and I think weboth agree in that she deserves
more recognition.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So I'll give a bit of an introduction and then we'll,
I guess, talk about her life.
So she was the daughter of awealthy I guess, diplomat,
socially elite parents and theyactually opposed her choice of
becoming a doctor, and I thinkit was a real battle for her to
become a doctor and her parentstrying to stop her becoming a
(05:37):
doctor.
And she had this desire to helpthose suffering from mental
disorders and also, morefamously, lepers, and she also
became an author later in herlife.
I see her as a woman of manyroles and talents.
Not only was she a psychiatristand author, she was also a
(05:57):
translator, and she also had tobe a housewife and mother of two
children.
She spoke and taught severalforeign languages, including
French and English, and as atranslator, she translated
Marcus Aurelius' meditationsinto Japanese, I think, from
Greek.
She taught psychiatry atseveral Japanese universities
(06:20):
and she was also a private tutorto the princess Michiko, who
served as the Empress' consortuntil 2019.
I think she tutored her beforeshe married into the royal
family.
So quite an amazing CV it is.
So how well known is she inJapan today?
Speaker 1 (06:43):
So some people, of course, know them, but I asked
my mother, actually, but shedidn't recognize the name and,
of course, my mother is of theage that she would have not
directly but have heard of herif she was on TV back in the
(07:04):
1960s and 70s.
But she didn't recognize.
So I think for those people whoare interested in psychiatry
psychology, I'm sure she hasbeen well known, but in Japan
her name may not be as widelyknown as other giants in the
field.
But something happened in 2018,and the Japanese broadcast
(07:31):
network NHK did a specialprogram on her work and life,
and I suspect that was becausethe attention to Ikigai was
coming back right around 2016and 17.
So on the tv show they did atwo kind of back-to-back
(07:51):
episodes on her background andher line of work, and I'm sure
that brought some attention backto, you know, herself and
ikigai as a topic I actually sawthose.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I saw two of the episodes on youtube, but they're
now no longer available and Ithink you have.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
They're behind a paywall now yeah they put out
paywall, but you can still watchit.
It was quite good.
I watched it before it was.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Uh, it became that paid subscription yeah, I
believe at the time when shepublished her book it did become
a bestseller.
I'm not sure what that reallymeans in Japan, how many sales
that equates to, but it is.
Yeah, I guess it's a bitstrange that no one seems to
(08:40):
know her.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So there's one exception I think seems to know
her.
So there's one exception Ithink is among the folks called
the Ikigai Development Advisorin Japan.
So that's the program I'm goingthrough myself right now, to
become a certified health, andIkigai Development Advisor is
what they are called and intheir textbook prominently
(09:05):
features Mieko Kamiya herselfand the works of the Ikigai
Nitsute.
And with that in mind, I thinkthere is a little bit of a
thinking that Ikigai is forelderly or for people who's aged
more.
Yeah, that sentiment is sort ofthere and we don't necessarily
(09:27):
hear too often about ikigaiamong, let's say, young Japanese
, say college students andothers.
I mean, it is commonly usedword, as we've been saying all
along, but how often do they usewill probably differ by age.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, touching on these health and ikigai
development advisors in Japan.
So you're currently taking theprogram and you're in Japan and
you're going through it.
So how was it when youdiscovered they featured her
work specifically?
I know they mentioned herikigai needs and her definition
(10:03):
and also the characteristicsIkigai needs and her definition
and also the characteristics sowas that sort of refreshing and
I guess, something youcelebrated Like, oh, they're
recognizing her work.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
It was enlightening to see her work is actually
being used in something morepractical or programmed that
designed to prompt action yeah.
Or program that's designed toprompt action yeah, Because in
the Western world there's a lotof how-to or self-care books and
everything out.
Well, here it is.
I think the ikigai-nitsuiteconcept is being used and kind
of integrated into some of theactivities that can be planned
(10:43):
and executed among, in this case, the retirees and elderlies in
Japan.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yes, so briefly touching on this role of being a
health and ikigai advisor, whatI understand is, as you know,
I've got the workbooks myself.
I managed to get my cousin toget copies of the workbooks.
That is really geared forretirees transitioning from a
work life to a new sort ofsocial life where they can serve
(11:10):
their community.
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yes, that is correct and really the theme is about
how do we be proactive about thehyper well, that's the word I'm
using, but I think thatappropriate word is super aged
or super aging society.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Aren't they forecasting this significant
increase in centenarians overthe next 20, 30 years?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Well, the irony of it all is that by the time I you
know if I'm around enough, youknow long enough to be a
centenarian I will be makingpart of that peaking effect of
the population, because I'mwhat's called the second wave of
the baby boomers in Japan, Isee.
(11:58):
So the year I was born, therewas, I think, 3 million children
were born, and ever since thattime the number has reduced and
nowadays it doesn't even hitlike 900,000 per year, I see.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, it's aging population but decreasing birth
rate.
But that's a good answer,that's it.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
I mean, it's a lot of aging people who are living
longer and then the birth ratehas gone down, so there's less
and less young people cominginto the world to support the
rest of us.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Well, there you go.
Yeah, that was really, I guess,gratifying or satisfying for me
when I found out oh, her work'sbeing featured in these
workbooks Because, as you know,I use her ikigai needs in my own
program.
So I thought I'm using theright stuff in my own
certification course.
So that was like a win for me.
(12:56):
Yes, I'm doing the right thing.
So let's return to the subjectof Mikko Kamiya and her life.
She had a very unconventionalchildhood and in the fourth
grade she moved with her familyto Geneva, switzerland, her
father being a diplomat, and sheattended I think it's
Jean-Jacques Rousseau'sInstitute, which I think is
(13:18):
quite famous and that providedher with a specialised, unique
education.
And that provided her with aspecialised, unique education.
And there she enjoyed schoollife as well as the beauty of
nature in Switzerland itself.
She was there for three yearsand during those three years she
actually became morecomfortable using the French
language than Japanese.
(13:38):
I guess that's where she gotexposure to languages, where she
got exposure to languages.
But she also had some struggleduring this time in her life
because she was being singledout as a child of high society
and she became acutely awarethat she was, I guess, different
and being judged simply becauseshe came from a wealthy or
(14:03):
affluent family.
And, interestingly, she grewashamed of her status as a high
member of the high-ranking elite.
And, yeah, at such a young ageshe became aware or paid
attention to individuals whowere not as wealthy or as
fortunate as her, and I findthat fascinating.
(14:25):
And in her book she wrote thereis no denying that my brief
stay in Switzerland has left anindelible mark on me.
I've become un-Japanese.
Even today, it is in Frenchthat I think, read and write
with the greatest ease, and I'mstill inclined towards European
(14:46):
culture.
So that's something she wrotemuch later in life.
So this, this time in Geneva,had a lasting impact on her.
Yes, what are your thoughtsabout that?
Speaker 1 (14:58):
so I can draw a lot of correlations to what I
discuss or my daughters arebringing up.
It has to do with the timing oftheir upbringing and the
location, place and, of course,the language.
So I believe Miyako Kamiyaspent good enough years in
(15:20):
Switzerland, the French region,the speaking region of
Switzerland, so our mind and thethinking was already kind of
formed using that particularlanguage.
And there is actually anotherstudy that shows that if you
spend your adolescence, let'ssay like between the age of nine
(15:44):
to 14 years of age, in someplace, that environment is going
to have the biggest impact inyour character and identity
development.
And that is so true because Ican relate to this un-Japanese
feeling, because both of mydaughters say, especially when
(16:06):
they visit Japan, they do feelthis un-Japanese-ness.
They know they look likeJapanese and they understand the
language, they can speak prettywell too, but something that
nags them and say I'm not trulyJapanese is how they feel.
Now the funny contrast ismyself, and of course my wife
(16:30):
also, have lived in Japan until,let's say, the age of 15 and 16
.
Then moved to the US and spenta lot of years.
Then moved to the US and spenta lot of years.
We actually still think we areJapanese and we don't have much
of this un-Japanese feeling.
When visiting Japan or evenbeing outside of Japan, we kind
(16:51):
of recognize ourselves oridentify ourselves as Japanese.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So we have this firsthand experience of knowing
what this un-Japanese businessis they're perceived as Japanese
(17:24):
, and maybe when Japanese findout, oh, you're not really
Japanese, it must be hard forthem to navigate those
interactions.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
So they're older now and they can honestly articulate
some of their feelings and whatthey're thinking about in this
kind of subject.
And they say that it is alittle bit of this fear that
when the Japanese personapproaches them and talks to
them, when I'm going to uncoveror disclose that I'm not truly
(18:01):
Japanese, and is that certainlevel of fear that they feel?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
It reminds me of this idea of purity that comes to
mind with Japanese nationalityor Japanese-ness.
And yeah, I'm not sure if it'sa good thing, this idea of pure
(18:25):
Japanese.
I think famously it came outwith Naomi Osaka when she
started winning Grand Slams andshe was representing Japan, and
I think there was some debate inthe media as to, you know,
whether she really Japanesebecause she grew up in the
States and all that sort ofthing.
(18:45):
Was that a concern for you andyour wife with your children and
how they'd be perceivedeventually when you take them to
Japan?
Or did you just think this is anormal part of our family and
you didn't worry too much aboutit To?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
tell the truth, we didn't think ahead or think that
farther into the future, right.
So when they were growing up, Iwanted to make sure they
understood the Japanese way ofgrowing up to a certain extent.
So I almost forced them to goback to Japan every summer
(19:22):
during the grade school and theywent to school with their
cousins for two to three weeks.
So they understand, you knowhow to get together and serve
meals right for lunch, and inJapan, japanese schools, you
also know that the kids clean upafter themselves, and every day
(19:44):
they clean every portion of theschool grounds too.
So they've had those kinds ofexperience and exposure.
But it didn't carry enough.
I don't know the power tocreate an identity.
I don't know the power tocreate an identity.
This identity itself was stillcoming from where they lived,
(20:06):
which is the United States.
But now I think we canappreciate those kind of things,
as you know as, hopefully,daughters and parents and do
something about it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Well, let's return to Kamiya's life and her first
encounter with lepers, which hadthis strong influence, this
profound influence on her.
It was in 1933 and a few monthsafter graduating high school,
at a Christian meeting with heruncle she was there to play the
(20:40):
organ.
She saw these people, or thesepatients with leprosy, and it
shocked her initially.
Some were legless, armless andothers had these serious skin
inflammation.
But she was moved and impressedby the devoted care and
professionalism of a nursecalled Chiyo Mikami, and this
(21:04):
made her think that she toocould and should dedicate
herself to the sick.
And later, in another book, herautobiography Henneki, which I
think means Wanderings, shewrote in 1979, she said, or she
wrote I would like to work forthese patients like her, this is
(21:26):
just the place where I shouldwork.
This strong will welled up inmy mind the only place where I
can stay is where people mournand suffer.
I made up my mind in a flash.
So so this is someone who's 19.
Yeah, I have to do the math too, yeah, so what are your
(21:47):
thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Immediately, my thought was like what was I
doing when I was 19?
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Yeah, I was probably worried about something else.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, I was still in school, and it just so happens,
I think, when I was probablyworried about something else,
yeah, I was still in school, andit just so happens, I think
when I was 19, as part of myschool program, I was visiting
Australia.
I did a summer study, oractually winter study, in
Australia back then.
Okay, study in Australia backthen.
(22:21):
So my probably thinking is okay, I'm trying to become a
mechanical engineer.
What would I do after Igraduate?
That's probably the most Iwould have thought about the
future.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I think I was working in kitchens or just looking for
work, so I certainly wasn'tthinking of helping others, I
was more focused on myself.
So it's quite profound becauseI mean leprosy at the time and
for many decades was considereda shameful disease and we we
(22:53):
kind of know the history of howlepers were treated right in
japan and I guess in most othercountries too.
And here she is, at 19, havingthis desire to work with them
and this sort of compassion orwanting to understand their
suffering, so quite unique andmature and compassionate, well
(23:16):
beyond her years.
And then she had her own healthissues with tuberculosis and
after her education, her schooleducation, her secondary
education, at the age of 21, shewas diagnosed with having
tuberculosis and she was luckyin that her parents owned a
(23:37):
cottage in Karuizawa, that'srelatively close to Tokyo.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, and that's well known to be kind of the summer
getaway place for the wealthy.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I see.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
From the old days and today.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yes, and so, with permission of her family and
doctor, she was allowed to livethere alone and immersed herself
in reading English literature,including Shakespeare, books on
English history and linguistics.
And while she was recuperatingshe actually studied for a
national examination for ateacher's certificate in higher
(24:14):
education.
And, yeah, she recovered andthen also took the examination
and passed.
So quite the academic.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
But then the following year she contracted
tuberculosis again and thisobviously made her realise, you
know, about her own mortality,that she could die.
And she returned to the cottageand then, amazingly, she taught
herself Greek and Latin, readthese classic literature works
(24:47):
by Plato and Homer and so on,and somehow managed to read and
translate Marcus Aurelius'Meditations.
So you're thinking, how's thatpossible?
I mean back then, in what the19, would have been in what the
1930s, I think?
Yeah.
So tuberculosis gave her thetime and freedom to study what
(25:11):
she was interested in and I findit astonishing that she could
teach herself Greek and Latinand then translate Marcus
Aurelius' meditations.
So, yeah, she was quite thestudent.
I think she was quite unique.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Absolutely.
And again, she may have hadquite a bit of influence from
her upbringing and the fact thatshe continued to think in
French.
I guess over the years I thinkthat kind of the fondness
towards the European culture wasalready ingrained in her.
(25:46):
So I bet she didn't even feelany stress learning these
additional languages or readingthese you know great works of
the past.
So she kind of probably foundher ikigai already at that point
, whether she realized that ornot, right?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah.
So obviously it was a very goodway for her to spend her time
while recovering.
And then I think, through herstudies, kami was also
attempting to discover not onlythe meaning of life itself but
more specifically how she shoulduse the rest of her own life
with this.
I guess this discovery,specifically how she should use
the rest of her own life withthis, I guess this discovery
that you know, she might have ashort life with the illnesses
(26:27):
she was having.
And then it was written that bydevoting herself to reading the
classics, she was able toforget her worries and the fear
of death.
And this anxiety was furthereased by her eventual recovery
of tuberculosis.
So I guess these bouts oftuberculosis gave Kamara a
glimpse into her own mortality,and I think it's well known,
(26:51):
feeling close to death makes onefeel close to life also.
So do you think this is whenshe started to think about
Ikigai in general and maybe whather Ikigai could be?
Speaker 1 (27:04):
My thought about that is she probably was starting to
get interested in people's mindor even her own mind at that
point.
So maybe her interest forpsychiatry maybe already coming
together.
It could include Ikigai, butit's more towards okay,
understanding how the mind worksis probably more of that
(27:30):
interest or the intriguing pointthat she was discovering using
herself as the subject.
And another interesting thingabout is you know, I've seen
this with other people too butwhen you are having an illness
there's kind of two ways to goabout it.
One is really concerned aboutthe illness itself, trying to do
(27:53):
everything possible so that youget kind of sucked into the
illness itself.
But then in her case it's theother way.
She's basically trying to usethat kind of time affluence in a
creative, positive way and thathelped her overcome the illness
(28:17):
itself.
And we've seen those thingsover and over, I think, in other
people.
But one more thing is I thinkit's the timing of her illness
too.
When people are young and havethis kind of illness, they kind
of are forced to look at theirfuture.
There's not much to look backin their past or not much of the
(28:38):
accomplishment right past ornot much of the accomplished
accomplishment right.
So in a way, themselves or thepeople around them will tend to
point them towards the future.
But unfortunately situation'snot that helpful for people who
are like middle-aged or maybeyou know our age.
If we become super ill, then westart to kind of latch on to
(29:03):
those accomplishments and thingsin the past and that might
drive us farther down into thehands of the illness.
Yeah, so I think in a way.
I mean she was unlucky to haveTB, but the timing of her
illness also actually workedtowards forming her life
(29:26):
perspective for sure.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, I guess in a way she could have, and I guess
we could interpret that it gaveher this clarity and direction
on what she wanted to do withher life and directional that
she wanted to do with her life,and gave her this yo-yo, this
freedom or time to study.
Yeah, this time affluence tostudy, and it sounded like she
(29:52):
was quite a natural at languages, maybe going back to her time
in Geneva, and obviously she wasincredibly well-read too.
Yes, yeah.
So after she recovered in 1938,again with her family, they all
moved to New York and there sheentered Columbia University to
(30:16):
study classical Greek.
So that's quite a niche subject.
And at this time her father wasaware that she wanted to become
a doctor and obviously wastelling her no, you know, you
can't do that.
Then one day she went to a fair, the 1938 World Fair in New
(30:38):
York, and she stood for hourswith her eyes fastened on
specimens of human anatomy inthis medical pavilion and her
father, observing this, realized, okay, his daughter really
cares about this and really hasthis incredible desire to study
medicine.
So he gave her permission to doso, on the condition that she
(31:00):
would not go into the field ofleprosy.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
So there's going to be more on this later.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
And so yeah, camille happily changed her major from
classical Greek to medicine, butsecretly kept her determination
to work with lepers, obviouslyconcealed.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Her father should never have put that condition in
place.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
So you have two daughters, Kay.
Can you relate to thefather-daughter relationship?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, yeah, my daughters act like that too.
If I set some kind of condition, of course they'll come up with
ways to go around it.
I'm sure.
No one thing I'm kind of drawinga correlation is the fact that
it's not something we say thatimpacts our children, and it
(31:53):
doesn't matter if it's adaughter or son, you have a son,
it's what we do, you know, evenbefore they're bored.
That impacts their life, andI've come to that realization a
little late, with help from mydaughters.
I guess they are pointing thatout for me, our younger folks
(32:19):
who are considering to maybemove to some other places, place
to do work or live.
Well, it's time to startthinking about okay, what would
that do if you're planning tohave children to your kids?
To be honest, I never had thatkind of thought.
(32:40):
I was so focused on where I'mgoing to bring myself and learn
the subject I wanted to learnand find a job, that I wanted to
have a job.
But then fast forward to nowall those actions that I've
taken does have an impact on mychildren, does have an impact on
(33:02):
my children and that's part ofthe reason that they're coming
up with multiple identities intheir mind.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Yeah, it's a valid point.
Our own life, well beforethey're born, has some influence
.
Yeah and obviously me marrying aJapanese and then having my son
in Japan.
If I thought about it, yeah, Imean, I wouldn't have probably
really known at the time, but itwould add, I guess, both these
(33:31):
sort of unique opportunities.
But also there's, you know,been, I guess, not so much
problems but concerns we had tomake decisions on.
You know, where do we educateour son?
And in Australia, where there'sa multicultural, he's kind of a
normal person, but in Japan hewas always going to sort of
stand out as being half and wehad to make decisions based on
(33:55):
those things.
And I never considered thosethings before, you know, before,
even when I was married, sortof only after that he was born,
yeah.
So it's interesting how theseyou fall in love and get married
and then you have thesedecisions to make, these really
(34:17):
important decisions because theyinvolve these little people in
your life.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, and I think Japan is a bit I don't know
what's the word to use unique or, you know, outlier of an
environment, because you knowyou kind of touched on this
earlier how kind of amonoculturalistic or the
consideration of like a who whois truly japanese right kind of
(34:47):
gets into play.
Where united states, australia,it's already somewhat mixed
culture at different degrees.
Now those cultures have theirown issues too.
You know, with okay, is thereracism and so on and so forth.
Well, japan's form of thechallenge is really this concept
(35:07):
that you know what's thedefinition of true Japanese and
even you know today I'm reallyexcited to see a lot of us you
brought up Naomi Osaka earlierbut a lot of the sports players
(35:27):
who has basically parents fromJapan and non-Japanese countries
now, and their names andeverything is also starting to
show that fact and I think ouryounger generations, I'm hoping,
are going to basically takethat as normal.
Yeah Right, you can have peoplewho doesn't look like Japanese
(35:50):
to be in a under U23 soccer teamwho, by the way, who just made
their Olympics participationtoday or yesterday, and in the
roster will include people whodoes not look like traditional
Japanese and that's okay or thatshould be normal moving forward
(36:11):
.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
I think it will be and hopefully my son will go to
Japan and will feel he's a partof the country and hopefully he
won't be continually asked wherehe's from or where his parents
are, or that sort of.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
That's going to still continue to some extent.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
We just have to get used to.
So, returning to cammy's lifeagain after, uh, I think
obviously her family probablyhad to move back to japan
because of um, you know, the theonset of the Pacific War before
the Pacific War.
After things were clear thatwar was on their doorstep.
So she returned to Tokyo andfinished her medical studies and
(37:05):
a year before her graduation,kami asked the National Leprosy
Area to allow her to go there aspart of a research project to
learn about leprosy and to alsomeet someone, I guess a pioneer
authority in the field ofleprosy, mitsuda Kensuke, and I
(37:26):
think they formed a pretty goodworking relationship.
So she was there for 12 daysand she was shocked to find the
conditions at this leprosariumwere horrible no effective
medicines, no suitabletreatments and most of the
patients were suffering frommalnutrition.
And yeah, because of all of this, she felt this greater sense of
(37:49):
responsibility towards thepatients and she actually wrote
a poem about it that I found atranslation of, and this was
what she wrote, I think,probably in her diary why you
lepers, not I, you carry all theburdens lepers carry.
Being deprived of all thatmakes a comfortable life.
(38:10):
You are constantly in torment,agony and desperation.
I promise you that I will standby you, support you and comfort
you, pray to God for you everynight and morning.
But at the same time I feelguilty about mentioning all
these sweet words because theysound vain to you.
You, lippers, are the ones whoreally know what hardship is.
(38:33):
Yeah, so quite profound againthat she had this deep affinity
or compassion.
Why do you think she had thisconnection to lepers?
Why did she feel so stronglytowards them?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
I think it is the combination of, you know, the
fact that she's already formedthis highly nuanced,
multicultural kind of mind, mind, was you know two or more kind
of value structures already atthat point.
Second is, I think that her ownexperience was tuberculosis,
(39:13):
yeah, and the fact that she'salready realized how, you know,
she was in the elite group andshe was given the type of care
and options of going to these,you know, karuizawa and other
places to, you know, get better,yeah, I think she must have
contrasted that with theexperience of the lepers well,
(39:38):
it's amazing she um didn't takeall her opportunities and wealth
for granted.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
She could somehow found it in her to be
compassionate, understanding,because I think very few people
would, you know, have the heartthat she had.
And then, moving on at theleprosarium, she began to hope
she could work there and devoteherself to these leprosy
patients.
And again she faced oppositionfrom her father and, you know,
(40:07):
basically he said no.
So her decision was overruledand I think this caused a lot of
frustration in life and in herlater life she wrote about her
frustration.
So between the years of 1944 to1949, she did become a student
of psychiatry at the Universityof Tokyo.
(40:28):
There she married her futurehusband, kamiya Noburo.
They got married in 1946.
And for the next decade sheplayed the role of housewife and
mother, while also teachingforeign languages and correcting
the English language papers ofher husband and his students.
(40:48):
And she did not like that.
So in several diary entries from1954, she expressed her
frustration at being unable topursue perhaps her most
important source of ikigai dueto these commitments.
She wrote every day I get sofrustrated with my English
correction to the point I wantto kill myself.
(41:11):
Is life the experience of doingthings you don't want to do.
How long do I have to be alanguage teacher?
Languages you are the curse ofme.
If I spend so much time onthese things, I will never be
able to stand on my own as apsychiatrist.
I don't know how many times Ihave the thought of giving up my
(41:31):
full-time job and becoming alecturer.
How can I manage theresponsibilities of a full-time
job, my family and my studies?
It's a very human thing to do.
Oh God, please give me thestrength I need to climb these
mountains forever and ever andever and ever.
So very frustrated writing thatdiary entry.
(41:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, and this was taking place at the post-war
Japan too.
Right, the war ended around1945.
So the country was in the modeof rebuilding, trying to find
its footings, and that's whenshe was also trying to find her
footings.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Which is kind of interesting.
It kind of you know thoseoverlaps, but those words and
the struggle is something that Ithink a lot of the folks, even
today, especially the mothers,will probably share.
I mean, it's been 50, 60 yearssince her time and the household
(42:36):
responsibilities and how thosethings are arranged, especially
in Japan, I think still has along way to go.
Yeah, so in a way she wasalready kind of pointing out the
movement that's kind of laterbecome the feminist movement,
also the rights for women in.
(42:59):
Japan, even though I don't thinkthere's any record of her being
directly participating in thoseactivities.
But I'm sure she may haveinfluenced a lot of folks who
may have come up, grown afterher, to voice their perspectives
, a lot of folks who may havecome up, you know, grown after
her to, you know, voice theirperspectives on these matters.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, I also think the entry indicates this
struggle from a lack of shimekanlike a sense of purpose.
And you know some people mightthink, wow, she was already
successful in achieving so manythings and, who knows, maybe
someone in her position mighthave enjoyed correcting English
(43:44):
and teaching languages, but itobviously didn't give her the
sense of purpose she was seeking, obviously related to
psychiatry and helping lepers.
And there is a book, abiography on her life, called A
Woman with Demons, and I was abit shocked by the title of the
(44:05):
book, but it was inspiredactually by one of her diary
entries where she said you know,my demons are raging again
today and she was frustratedwith life.
And yeah, she had thisincredible desire to you know,
my demons are raging again todayand she was frustrated with
life.
And yeah, she had thisincredible desire to, you know,
really do something with herlife and help others, help
others less fortunate than her.
(44:26):
But she also suffered a lot ofloss and pain.
So she even had several decadesof depression due to the loss
of her first love.
She fell in love with a youngman who was one of her brother's
friends and she really didn'teven know him.
She kind of just only had a fewencounters with him but fell in
(44:47):
love with him and he died oftuberculosis, I think.
Then she battled, obviously,multiple illnesses tuberculosis,
later cancer and she obviouslylived almost two decades, or at
least a decade, living with thefrustration of not being able to
pursue work as a scholar andwriter, and also the battle she
(45:10):
had with her father on wantingto help lepers.
So I think we could say shestruggled in her life with a
lack of ikigai for extendedperiods of time.
So do you think all these lifeexperiences and all this
frustration helped herunderstand the multidimensional
nature of ikigai?
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Surely right.
More certainly, I know we'll bediscussing ikigai nitsuite, the
book, in another episode, butthe way she writes the book, yes
, she does use the phrases as ifshe's kind of uncovered the
phrase is as if she's kind ofuncovered it through certain
(45:54):
studies, but I feel that she isincluding her own experiences
over it, even though she doesn'tclearly state those things.
So you know, especially so thereis, I don't know, can I bring
up a passage from the bookPeople know this is not about
(46:14):
the book so there's a passagewhere she says right, so the
people encounter obstacles akinto wolves blocking their path in
different forms and atdifferent times throughout their
lives, and they come to realizetheir power.
Those wolves are reallypowerful.
Come to realize their power.
(46:37):
Those walls are really powerful.
At such moments, the issue offinding Ikigai inevitably arises
Is a life filled with suchsadness and suffering still
worth living?
What should one live for fromnow on?
And to your point, I think thiswas in her mind, if not all the
(46:58):
time, a lot of the time overthe course of her life.
And another thing I'm kind ofdrawing a correlation to is
based on some of the readingsI've been doing is that it's the
concept of resilience.
Right, you know psychologistsand others cover it, but I think
(47:20):
this Ikigai perspective is verysimilar to how the concept of
resilience is discussed todaythat the more often you
encounter these kind of lifesituations, the more resilient
you encounter these kind of lifesituations, the more resilient
you become.
So, essentially, the people whoface the disadvantages and
(47:42):
challenges in their lifesituations especially like
earlier in their life tend todevelop resilience much faster,
and that's, I think, what tookplace here with Miyako Kamiya
herself.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Yes, I've spoken to several researchers, who one in
particular relates ikigai I meanto intrinsic motivation, but
also existential positivepsychology and this idea of
bouncing back or overcoming achallenge.
Or even in the midst of goingthrough a challenge, you begin
to understand what matters toyou and you can feel ikigai
(48:22):
through the challenge.
And then, once you've overcomethe challenge, under reflection
you realize that challenge, thatsuffering was, was worth it
because it uncovered my Ikigai,or it made me a stronger person
and I discovered things Ithought I wasn't capable of.
I guess an easy life, a simpleeasy life, wouldn't uncover
(48:48):
these different sources ofIkigai or we wouldn't gain this
resilience, right?
So, yeah, I always like to sayyou guys, it's not about you
know, really, it's not abouthappiness.
Happiness is a byproduct ofIkigai, but it's a meaningful
life and I guess to have ameaningful life we have to be
(49:09):
challenged every once in a while.
That's right.
And Kamiya obviously wanting tofind meaning through this desire
to work with lepers, eventuallyhad the opportunity to
undertake a research project in1956 that gave her this
opportunity to return to a placecalled Nakashima ASEAN, which
(49:31):
was an island where lepers wereshipped to.
Returned to a place calledNakashima ASEAN, which was an
island where lepers were shippedto, and I think we mentioned
before when she went there forthe first time she was shocked
by the conditions they had sinceimproved and there she did
(49:51):
research that eventually led toher writing her dissertation to
find employment as a professorand then I think this gave her
the freedom to then become anauthor and write her seminal
book.
So this opportunity was apsychiatric study and survey of
lepers, and so she went therereally to interview lepers and
(50:15):
they were given questionnairesand psychological tests and her
research revealed an importantissue related to psychological
aspects and treatments of ofleprosy for these patients, and
what stood out was this sense ofmeaninglessness that so many of
the patients felt about theirlives and their widespread
(50:38):
despair about their future.
So no future because of thisdisease and, yes, despite them.
I mean all their basic needswere met, apparently.
So they had shelter, food,clothing, but, yeah, they didn't
have much more than that, but Ithink we'll talk about this
(50:58):
later.
But she found some of thesepatients could find a sense of
meaning in Ikigai, despite, youknow, lacking, I guess, a sense
of purpose or lacking theopportunity to find a sense of
purpose or find sources ofIkigai.
So we'll talk about her book onthe next episode.
But eventually this did lead toher father's approval and after
(51:23):
the research project and at thistime she was a mother of young
children she finally gotapproval from her father to go
and, do you know, work withlepers.
So she she won that battle inthe end.
That was in um 1957.
So a brief summary of her workthere.
(51:44):
She worked for about 15 yearsthere, from 57 to 1972.
She usually worked every otherweekend.
She would sometimes work therefor a full week during summer
vacations to cover colleagueswho were, I guess, on holidays,
and she became the chief doctorin psychiatry and, yeah, spent
(52:05):
quite a bit of time there and itwas also very far from where
she lived.
I think she would take a trainand then have to take a ferry or
a boat to the island.
So quite a lot of work involvedfor this commitment.
And also she had children andso she was.
(52:26):
This reminds me of GordonMatthews and the podcast I did
with him and he said you know,Eureka guy, he believes E Ikigai
is ultimately one thing Is ityour work or is it your family?
And it does sound like Kamiyawas, you know, leaning on one
more than the other.
And it was her work.
She desperately wanted to dothis work.
(52:50):
Yeah, so Ikigai can result in,I think, difficult choices,
because meaningful role, a veryimportant role of a mother, but
also this desire to help others.
So I guess we're sometimesfaced with choices of ikigai.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Yeah, and there's something to think about in
today's world, right?
So I mean, when she was growingand also, you know, working
with lepers this is still thetime that again, you said it
travel was not that quick.
This is before Shinkansen orthe bullet train, so there's no
(53:33):
like well, hop on the train anhour and a half and you go right
200 miles or 300 kilometers.
It's not that it took a lotmore effort.
Another observation I'm makingis I think Miyako Kamiya was
already exposed to a lot ofcultures and sold the world, and
if you bring ourselves back totoday, that's what's happening
(53:57):
with a lot of young people Now.
They may not be going to places, but through the devices and
social networks and YouTube andwhatever else, they're seeing so
many different cultures andoptions.
You know options.
Now the problem is some of themare made up yes, it's like fake
(54:20):
and they are basically somewhatthrown away.
I mean blown away by it, andyou said it today.
There are so many options nowthat I think our young people
are somewhat struggling to makeup their mind as to what is
(54:41):
going to be their ikigai.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Right.
It's kind of like walkingthrough a supermarket aisle, and
I'm going to use the Americanexample on this one.
You go to a cereal aisle andyou see so many different
options.
Or in Japan it's equivalentwould be you try to pick a tea
(55:07):
at a convenience store.
There are so many differentoptions, and then you just kind
of have to stop and say, okay,what do I want and for what
reason?
Yeah, and that's what'shappening, I think.
I think the situation is in thepast there was fewer options
and that may have createdchallenges, but today I think
(55:29):
it's the opposite it's too muchoptions or too much information
that's made available,especially the younger people.
Speaker 2 (55:40):
I agree totally.
I think we could call it theparadox of choice Too many that
you choose none, and thenthere's a lot of distraction
with this ability to watch anykind of entertainment through
multiple screens anywhere youknow, and one concern I had as a
(56:03):
father was will my son lose hiscreativeness?
and well, you know all this timeon screens or steal time that
he would use for creativity.
Fortunately he's quite creativeand he makes music, but he, I
(56:24):
guess as a parent I still haveconcerns about how much he is
attached to his phone, but itseems normal now.
But on this theme, actually oncreativity, that was something
Kamiya encouraged patients topursue or seek to sort of find
(56:44):
or express their ikigai.
And she encouraged the lepersto develop their creative
abilities by writingcompositions or poems, drawing
pictures and playing musicalinstruments so they could
release their sorrow and worriesand establish a meaningful
lifestyle within the lapisarium.
And she helped one of thepatients who was teaching
(57:06):
himself French and donatedmusical scores and instruments
to patients so they could takean interest in music.
And one of her patients, a man,a young man called Kochikondo,
who became a patient from theage of 11 and lost his eyesight
at 19, wrote the following aboutKamiya Dr Kamiya sometimes came
(57:31):
to our meetings, so the meetingfor blind patients.
As soon as she sat down at thetable, everybody got together to
talk to her and listen to her.
She spoke in a soft and kindway.
There was not any differencebetween her and us.
It was not merely sympathy orpity, but she was always.
(57:52):
But she always talked to us asif she were in the same
situation as we were.
She did not look down at us outof compassion at any time.
This is why I think dr camillewas really great.
So she yeah, it sounds like sheeventually did the work that
mattered to her and had thisbeautiful and positive impact on
(58:14):
these people.
And, yeah, she seems to matterto these people there.
So there is some perceptionthat she was the Mother Teresa
of lepers in Japan, which isprobably a romantic exaggeration
(58:39):
, but clearly this work wasimportant to her and perhaps I'm
not sure if it was a source ofikigai or if it was her
shimeikan, like a sense ofpurpose, or maybe it was both.
What do you think?
Or maybe it was both?
What do you think?
I think it was both.
Speaker 1 (59:01):
She certainly had this strong sense of purpose we
call it the shimeikan but alsoin the process of doing or
carrying out the tasks, I'm sureshe was feeling ikigai-tan.
Yeah, you said it before.
(59:21):
She had to travel a long waysto commute to locations.
Dealing with lepers or thepeople with different degree of
(59:43):
issues is not for thefaint-hearted.
I mean, you have to observethem on a daily basis.
You encounter new and maybeworse situation for these
patients, but somewhere, somehow, she doesn't have much writing
about her getting depressedabout the situation of these
(01:00:04):
patients or having beenfrustrated.
I don't think she's left muchof that kind of writing and that
kind of tells me that she wasreally feeling haekigai, as
she's engaging directly withthese patients.
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Well, she actually wrote on that.
So in 1972, when she was 57,kamiya retired from Nagashima, I
say because of failing health,and at the time she expressed
her feelings about the patientsat the leprosarium, I imagine,
in another diary entry and shewrote I feel a profound affinity
(01:00:47):
with the patients now.
It was my lifetime pleasurethat I could visit them for
about 15 years.
I might not have done much forthem, but it was an honour to be
a friend to them.
It deepened my conviction thatthe people whom we should care
about the most are the ones atthe bottom in society.
(01:01:08):
And yeah, it's interesting sherefers to them as friends.
It was an honour to be a friendto them.
So that was how she perceivedher relationship with them.
And after retirement Camillehad heart conditions and she was
(01:01:29):
hospitalised several times andshe still maintained her
correspondence with the patients, so obviously was writing
letters.
And then she died in 1978 ofheart failure at the age of 65.
So quite a young age if wethink about it, but quite a full
(01:01:56):
life.
Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah, in today's life expectancy that is quite young.
But just so you know, aroundthe wartime or the post-war
Japan, the average lifeexpectancy was actually around
that age 65.
Expectancy was actually aroundthat age 65.
It's only in 1980s and into the90s that Japanese started to
(01:02:20):
live longer and crossed the 80s.
Nowadays we're talking about 90and 100.
Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Yes, so quite an amazing person, and on the next
episode, we will explore herbook.
So I look forward to talkingwith you, kay.
On the next episode, we willexplore her book.
So I look forward to talkingwith you, kay, on the next
episode about Ikigai Nitsute,thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Thanks, nick, that was a pleasure.
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