February 2, 2025 • 57 mins
What can we gain from spending time outdoors?
While nature is commonly linked to well-being, it also serves as a powerful tool for personal growth and transformation.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Cory McGowan to discuss how he integrates nature and adventure into his coaching, helping individuals unlock their full potential and achieve personal growth.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What interests me more and more about nature and
what I've kind of experiencedmore and more since we've been
out here so much closer to itthan the 10 or so years we were
in Tokyo, is the literalnon-separation between us and
nature.
Even using the word nature orearth or outdoors indicates that
(00:23):
there's that it's somethingthat's not us.
And what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
the thing that I'm alsoexperiencing Right?
How is that?
There's actually no separationbetween me and that tree that's
right there and what's that like?
And I don't really know theanswer to that, but that's kind
of what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
this environment and how is thisenvironment me?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Corey Magowan,
american by birth, decades inJapan, global citizen and
certified and an experiencedprofessional coach.
(01:17):
Corey is a leadership andexecutive coach and guides
adventurous leaders to createresults by going beyond what
they are doing and looking atwho they are being, with his
transformational coachingpractice in Japan that
incorporates nature, theoutdoors and adventure, so
working with you sounds like itwould be a lot of fun, corey.
(01:39):
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Thanks, Nick, for offering todo this together.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Not at all.
So let's get some backgroundwhat brought you to Japan and
what has kept you there for solong?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, kind of a not an uncommon story.
I guess I came here somewhat ona whim with a buddy of mine who
had been in Japan for a coupleof years.
He was going back to study moreJapanese and had found a
Japanese school down in Aichikenand sounded interesting to me.
I had spent most of my twentiesgoing on different
international travels andescapades and hadn't been to
(02:14):
Asia yet.
So I rocked up with a backpackand a surfboard and thought I'd
study for a few months and seewhat it was like, immediately,
ran out of money and then fellinto an English teaching job
which actually worked out reallywell.
I come from a family ofeducators so I really liked
working in education and gettinggood at teaching.
I especially enjoyed workingwith kids and actually had to go
(02:38):
home for a bit when my mom gotsick and passed and just felt
like I wasn't done with Japan.
So I came back this time toChiba, worked at a much bigger
organization and worked quicklyfrom teaching into the
recruiting side of things andthat took me into the next job
that a lot of foreigners do here, which is being a recruiter,
(03:02):
and did that for about a yearand a half and in a lot of ways
it didn't feel like a fit.
I didn't feel like I fit in thebusiness world and in a suit
and all of that, and found acool opportunity working at
what's called an edutainmenttheme park.
It's this place called Kidzania,which had started in Mexico and
Tokyo was its firstinternational franchise.
(03:23):
So I got to join a company thatwas really fresh and new and
pretty soon after starting andgot to work my way up fairly
quickly there up to a directorlevel role.
So I had my first experience askind of higher level management
in an organization and thefirst foreigner that had done
that in that organization andquickly saw like wow, management
(03:46):
is really I don't know if it'sokay to swear on the show or not
, but it's quite, you know andjust a growing curiosity about
like why does this happen?
You know, why does managementturn out the way that it does?
And that kind of led me downthe path of learning more about
organizational development andeventually that led me to
(04:06):
coaching.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Wow, yeah, it's quite a unique journey, a lot of.
I mean, I have so many friendswho went to Japan or met so many
foreigners in Japan who did theteaching thing, and then
eventually everyone goes homeand then you're sort of the one
odd one out who stays.
But when did you first arrivein japan?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
uh 1999.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So yeah, I spent the uh new year's into 2000 here,
yeah yeah, okay yeah, yeah yeah,I was there for the two way the
bug, what they call that bug.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
The Y2K thing.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Y2K.
Yeah, all right, but I did.
Yeah, I sort of kept coming andgoing to Japan, but it sounds
like you've stayed there prettymuch since what?
The early 2000s?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, like I said, I had that one short stint to go
home.
And when I say I wasn't donewith Japan, I think it was a
combination of like not likebeing curious, having made some
really good friends here, butalso just not really knowing
what the hell I was I was doingwith myself.
You know, I had just lost mymom, which was unexpected, and
(05:19):
didn't really feel like I had aplace that fit back in the US.
And, yeah, I'd been getting upto some really fun stuff in
Japan and, yeah, decided to comeback and have just continued to
have like a community offriends and work that I enjoyed,
and I didn't actually meet mynow wife until I was 35.
(05:41):
So that was, you know, six orseven years after first arriving
.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Okay, wow, yeah, I probably lost my mom the same
time as you and I was.
I went back to, I came back toAustralia to be with her and
then, yeah, kind of felt theneed to go back to Japan after
all of that.
So, yeah, I love japan, youobviously do so.
(06:07):
We'll talk more about that andwe'll talk about where you live,
minakami.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So tell me what life is like there oh man, it'd be a
long podcast if I told you allthe stuff that I loved about
minakami.
But uh, yeah, it's just.
It's an incredible communitylanded here kind of through a
friend who had a place out here,an australian friend, actually,
a lot of uh aussies and kiwisout here, very fewer of us
(06:33):
americans, which is probablygood for me, um, um, but yeah,
it's just this.
It's a pretty humble bluecollar and agricultural town
that has quite a few onsens, soit's got a bit of a tourist
industry as well.
But it's got amazing accessfrom Tokyo.
You ride the bullet train forabout an hour and five minutes
(06:55):
and you're here.
So the first year that we movedout here from Tokyo, I actually
commuted by Shinkansen into workfor a year and it was totally
doable.
So we're right on the foot ofwhat's called the Tanigawa
mountain range, which is thismountain range that separates
this prefecture of Gunma fromthe next one, niigata, and then
(07:15):
Niigata is right on the ocean.
So it's just this coolcombination of really beautiful
mountains.
We've got the Tanigawa river,which is the second longest
river in Japan, and then a lotof other rivers that feed into
that, so just a lot of beautifulwildlife, really.
Your listeners may be familiarwith, like rural Japan and how
(07:38):
it can be quite closed even toJapanese people.
And Minakami is really theopposite of that.
We've always experienced it tobe a very open and generous
community, and there have beenforeigners living here probably
40 to 50 years anyways, peoplethat are drawn to the outdoor
scene and the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
So, yeah, it's quite the place All right, sounds like
a good place, so I'll come andvisit, yeah, yeah, so, as you
know, you've been on my radarfor a while and even now and
then I would see these LinkedInposts and thought, oh, I've got
to reach out to Corey.
So I'd like to share one ofthem that you posted actually
(08:18):
quite recently, and it's aboutvulnerability, and I appreciate
that.
I sort of really appreciatepeople being vulnerable and I
think it's something we need tosee more.
So I'll quote you and we cantouch on it.
You wrote have you smiled fromyour heart?
Yet this year, to be honest, ithas taken me longer than I would
(08:39):
have liked.
I ended 2024 with so muchenergy for the projects that I
wanted to take on this year andyet, despite a solid two weeks
off for the holidays, when Istarted back, I couldn't find
that energy.
Instead, I felt loneliness.
I love my work and yet I had astark awareness of how isolated
I can feel as a solopreneur,heading to my office on my own
(09:02):
without colleagues to chat with.
And, yeah, I kind of instantlyresonated with this related to
this and thought, yeah, that'spretty much what I feel
sometimes and that's what I do.
I work alone.
I have, of course, a lot ofconnections, but, yeah, most of
the time I'm by myself gettingmy work done.
(09:24):
And yeah, me too.
At the end of last year I wasboth burnt out and also excited
for what was possible this year,but I kind of collapsed into
this state of I'm tired and Ifeel lonely, and it seemed
different to other times, butI'm out of it now, so that's
(09:47):
good.
So I know you've had your firstheart smile this year, so do
you want to share what that was?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Sure, and just to be fully transparent, like, I love
that you brought this up and Istill feel like I'm in the
rawness of it.
You know like it turns outhaving a heart smile doesn't
just like make everything.
I love that you brought this upand I still feel like I'm in
the rawness of it.
You know, like, um, uh turnsout, having a heart smile
doesn't just like makeeverything go perfectly Right,
um, so, yeah, there's um,there's a thing of like, um,
(10:17):
kind of feeling like I can'tquite get out of my own way, you
know, and like create themomentum and the projects that I
, that I have lined up for thisyear.
But the great kind of smile andday that I had was just getting
to go out snowboarding with myboys.
I have two teenage boys, 17 and14, um, and they're great boys
(10:39):
and they're independent teenageboys and they want to, for the
most part, do the thing withtheir friends.
But, uh, that you know theysurprised me with wanting to go
out riding with me, and so wemade a day of it and had a lot
of beautiful snow and we went toa resort that we hadn't been to
before and it was just likeseeing the two of them, you know
, in the fresh snow and thewhoops of like joy and and just
(11:01):
doing their thing thing, um, andit's just like the simplicity
of like this is, this is whatit's all for.
Yeah, you know, like this is,this is what the work is for,
this is what the kind of thechallenging times are for is
just like.
So we get to do these simplethings, we get to spend some
time together, we get to be outin nature, we get to, we get to
(11:21):
whoop out loud, um, when we'rehaving some fun.
So, yeah, it was nice, it wasjust like kind of, it was like a
recentering and like, oh, yeah,I'm, I'm here to help the boys
have these experiences and alsohave these experiences myself as
well nice.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, it doesn't take much.
All it takes is sometimes justto spend a bit of quality time
with the people you love.
And, as you touched on it, yeah, obviously it's not the answer
to all life's problems andchallenges, but it is what you
live for and I guess maybebecause it's as boys grow and I
(11:58):
guess you do end up spendingless time with them when you do
spend that time with them, it'svery precious and meaningful
with them.
When you do spend that timewith them, it's very precious
and meaningful.
I have a boy who's turning 21soon and it's in these playful
moments that I really enjoy,where, I don't know why, we're
kind of going back to anactivity we used to do when he
(12:19):
was much younger.
But we have this soft toy birdthat's really for my cat.
We're sort of having thesethrowing competitions into the
laundry basket and there's likea penalty and the loser has to
go out shopping and buy somesnacks or, you know, pick up
dinner.
So it's like that's.
(12:40):
It doesn't take much to have abit of fun.
Yeah, but with Japan and I'veexperienced this you do have,
you know, isolation andloneliness, which I did struggle
(13:01):
with at times.
So how do you handle that?
And is it better that you arein a place with nature and away
from the hustle and bustle ofcity, or is it, yeah, the same
type of loneliness, or is it adifferent type of loneliness?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
yeah, great question.
I mean, first I'm I'm someonethat's always been really
comfortable on my own, like themajority of kind of travels and
adventures I've been on havebeen solo and have also been
like really lonely during someof those times.
You know, it's like a, um, kindof self-created initiation
(13:36):
experiences, you know, and sothat's that's part of it.
And then you know, I think partof it for for coaches in
particular, and probably similarfor like therapists and other
people working in developmentwork these days, you know the
beauty of getting to do itonline and the beauty of how
(13:56):
relatively easy it'd be, it canbe, to start your own business
and do this thing.
Then the other side of it isthat you're sitting in your own
space doing it and also, like inthe work that we do, we take on
a lot from people, right, wetake on a lot in terms of the
stuff that they're being withand the kind of the energy that
comes through being inconversation with them.
(14:16):
You know I used to have somegood friends who were massage
therapists way back when andthey used to talk about just
like the impact of workingparticularly with people who are
like real kind of like rigidand all that and what it was
like and, um, it's, I think it'sreally similar.
You know, we're working withpeople on some real deep shit in
their lives and, um, it can beeasy to take some of that on
(14:39):
Right.
So, um, the ways that I have todeal with it you know.
First, I have personal practicesthat I do every day, things
like journaling and meditationand movement routines.
I am outside almost every dayfor one reason or another, even
if it's just the walk from myhouse to the office, but I'm
outside quite a bit.
(15:01):
And then, like, try to have asmany intentional like
communities and support systemsas I can.
So it's like coachingcolleagues, and a lot of them
are based outside of Japan buthaving I have one in particular,
really core community that Iwork with, and then I'm focusing
more and more on developingreally local community.
(15:22):
So I have, I have some goodfriends here in Minakami and I
have some programs that I'vestarted in Minakami that are
basically around bolsteringcommunity, because I need it.
You know, I think a lot aboutwhat it's going to be like to be
an old man here, an oldforeigner here, and like, I want
, I want to make sure I have mypeople, you know the people that
(15:46):
I feel really connected to.
So so, yeah, those are, thoseare the kind of the things that
I'm like intentionally workingtowards and yeah.
And then, you know again,there's like this sense of
coming out to feel veryprivileged, to have this
beautiful space that I work in.
It's just this office that'sbig enough for me and a client
to sit in, with a view of ariver, and all that.
And, yeah, you can also be like, fuck, yeah, it's just me.
(16:08):
Who am I going to reach out to?
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Well, that's a really proactive way to handle life
and loneliness when it visits,and I love the idea of community
, idea of community, and that'ssomething I've created online,
but I'm really looking forwardto creating it in person in
Japan.
And, yeah, there's nothingquite like connecting with
(16:35):
people in person and sharing andfinding similarities and unique
differences and celebratingthat and just having a good time
and realizing ah, it's alwayswith people that you seem to
have the best moments in life.
So it sounds like this lifeyou've built for yourself has
(16:56):
made you more resilient.
Would that be a fair statement,because not many people do what
you do?
Yeah, it comes with all thesechallenges learning language,
culture, taking risk.
I imagine your previousemployment was financially a
good gig, but you couldn't.
Your value system or who youwere was saying I can't do this
(17:19):
anymore.
Yeah, so you probably took riskas well.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, and that's something that I've actually
been pretty comfortable with formost of my life.
You know, that's just theadventure aspect.
I've always really thrived onchange and actually struggle
with like sameness.
So, you know, becoming a fatherand a husband and you know,
doing the right thing of havingthe good job in a corporate
(17:46):
environment and all that was, uh, that was hard man, that was
really hard.
I don't think I realized howhard it was until I came out
here and got to start to peelback some of those layers, you
know, and it came with a lot ofcosts I mean, like kind of my.
My key change story here is thatI got what I thought was the
dream job of being a COO of anoutdoor and adventure company.
(18:10):
I was like, oh yeah, now I'mworking in my town and doing
this kind of job that I want todo, and within a year it had all
fallen apart dramatically,which was partly COVID related
and partly related to, you know,kind of a fault in leadership,
both on the guy that was runningthe organization and, frankly,
(18:30):
on me.
You know I wasn't the right guyfor the role and that threw me
into a real spin of like I'vegot no job I'm supposed to
provide for my family, there'sno way I'm going back to Tokyo
and putting a suit on.
So you know what the hell am Igoing to do?
And it was also my firstexperience with kind of doing
the counterintuitive thing andbe like I'm going to spend some
(18:52):
money and get my own friggingcoach Cause I don't know what to
do right now.
And that was a real gamechanger for me.
I mean, I was already a coachat that point and I had done
some coaching, but I'd neverinvested in it for myself.
And yeah boy, that reallychanged things.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It certainly can.
Perspective's so valuable whenyou often have these beliefs
that things are going to bedifficult or hard or that you're
not quite ready yet.
And then you have someonechallenge all that and say, well
, hang on, is that true?
Yeah, what if it was easy?
And yeah, one conversation or ahandful of conversations can
(19:34):
really change your life, youknow, and I guess, change the
trajectory of your life.
And, yeah, I guess you end upalso with your choices.
You decide the life you'reliving and I'm kind of amazed
that most of us don't reallyhave control.
You know, think we don't havecontrol of that or we allow
(19:57):
society or our families or otherpeople kind of guide us on what
we should do, never reallycontemplating deeply on thinking
what do I really want to do andis it worth the risk?
And it absolutely is in mostcases.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
And what's the expression.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I'd rather try something on my own than not try
at all and live a life whereI'd rather try something on my
own than not try at all and livea life where I'm living in
conflict with my values.
Yeah, you'd rather try and failthan not try at all.
So, yeah, let's switch gearsand look at adventure, something
important to you.
So you guide adventurousleaders and I'd like to know
(20:41):
what you mean by adventure andwho are these adventurous
leaders you work with.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, I appreciate that question because I think,
you know, adventure can oftenget put into like this idea of
extreme things.
You know, extreme types ofexpeditions and stuff like that,
and I've done a little bit ofthat.
But that's not like, that's notreally what gets me excited.
You know what's, as you werementioning, like the choices
(21:11):
I've made, particularly in thepast four or five years, are
stuff that I never imagined thatI could or would do, and it
often scares the shit out of meas I'm doing it.
But it's just about.
It's about choosing kind of thebold thing that really excites
you, Right.
And so when I talk aboutadventurous leaders, I mean,
first of all, leadership itselfis innately adventurous, right.
(21:33):
And so I want to work withpeople who are willing to make
kind of the bold choicesprobably the counterintuitive
choices and people that arewilling to come out here and be
with me a bit in the outdoors.
And you know, what we do whenthey're out here depends on a
combination of things, right, itdepends on their comfort level,
of course, safety and all ofthat, but it's actually a
(21:57):
willingness to really betogether in person for, you know
, usually three days, and reallyget into some stuff.
You know, like what's really,what's?
What do you want to create?
What's what's kind ofunderneath, maybe some of the,
the ways of being or thoughtsthat you think are in the way of
creating those results?
Yeah, and the outdoors are.
(22:17):
It's great Like getting peopleinto the outdoors is such a cool
mirror for how they are incomplex leadership situations.
You know, I just see it againand again and it always just
makes me laugh.
It's just laugh with joy, right, Like not laughing at the
leaders.
There it is again, so it'sreally cool.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
It does sound cool.
nature and the outdoors is sucha conducive environment to to
growth or change, or toreflection or to realizing oh,
the world is so much bigger andI'm a part of it, even if it's
just a small part of it.
I'm part of this and I mean we.
(22:56):
We talk about health.
So we talk about usually healthis diet, exercise and sleep.
I think eventually there'll bepeople start saying the research
shows time in nature is crucialto your health, your well-being
, and most people don't spendany time in nature during their
(23:19):
work week and if they're luckythey might get away.
But we think about exercises,going to the gym often.
You know a lot of people run,but they're still not running in
nature.
So is that how you see nature?
Like?
It's this environment that doesso much for you physically,
(23:40):
emotionally, spiritually and soon.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I'll give that a yes, and Because it's what interests
me more and more about natureand what I've kind of
experienced more and more sincewe've been out here so much
closer to it than the you know10 or so years we were in Tokyo
is the literal non-separationbetween us and nature, right,
(24:06):
even using the word nature orearth or outdoors indicates that
it's something that's not us.
And what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
the thing that I'm alsoexperiencing, right?
How is that?
There's actually no separationbetween me and that tree?
That's right there, and what'sthat like?
And I don't really know theanswer to that, but that's kind
(24:27):
of what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
this environment and how is thisenvironment me and it's I think
it's the stuff that peoplesense when they're out here that
that's true, right, that thisis actually, even though it may
feel a little bit scary orunfamiliar, whatever, there's
also a kind of a deeper sensingof like, well, actually, this is
, this is all, just actually apart of me, this is all.
(24:48):
I'm all connected to the stuffthat's out here and the things
that I experience and the waythat it impacts me when I'm here
is because of thatnon-separation between myself
and this natural environmentthat makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I, yeah, I mean, I think for most people when we go
back to nature, it feels veryfamiliar, it feels like, ah, I
should be here.
And I mean I think Japanese,you know Shintoism touches on
that idea like separatingyourself from nature is very
damaging and, yeah, you're apart of nature.
(25:24):
So, yeah, I've wanted to delveinto Shintoism a bit sort of
that regard, learning more aboutit.
But it sounds like a lot ofyour work, and this is an
assumption from what I've readon your website.
You talk about mind to heartecology.
Slowing down and letting go iskey aspects of what you do.
(25:44):
So, would you say, has yourcoaching been influenced by
japanese culture and customs?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
well, yes, because I've been here so long, right, I
mean, you know very well howmuch being in japan kind of
makes you Japanese, even thoughas a foreigner you're never
actually seen as Japanese, butyeah, very much.
So just by being here, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
But most of my training and you know kind of
groups that I've been in havenot been Japan-based, so it's
kind of an interesting mix ofthe two.
Yeah, what you were, what youwere saying about, like Japanese
people and the relationship tonature as well, I was flashing
back to like when I worked atthat place, kidzania.
Part of the concept of thatthat business is that it's
(26:36):
always located inside a shoppingmall, and so I had to work
inside a frigging shopping mallfor seven years.
Mall, and so I had to workinside a frigging shopping mall
for seven years, and it alwaysblew my mind on the most
beautiful days how full theseplaces would be of Japanese
people.
And it's just like what isgoing on here.
Why are people choosing thisinstead of being in the outdoors
(26:56):
?
So sorry, that's a bit of anaside from what influences my
coaching, but it's one of theinteresting contradictions about
being here and the really longand deep connection to nature
that Japanese people have, right, yeah, Isn't that fascinating?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
It is fascinating because, I mean, I hold that
perception that perhaps Japaneseare more connected to nature or
have an understanding of thevalue of nature and don't see
themselves separate to it.
Yet recently it seems like, asyou mentioned, there's been more
times indoors and shopping, andeven in my wife's area in the
(27:36):
last sort of two decades therehave been talkie outlets that
was built.
There's been something else Ican't remember the name of, but
another massive shopping complexand this is almost like a
country town and you know,people from Tokyo travel to Toki
to shop at Toki outlets, not tocheck out the local culture or
(28:00):
nature.
I'm thinking, gee, that's adedication to shopping, that.
I've never seen before.
So are you seeing that happenmore in Japan now?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
I don't know.
I mean again, this was quite awhile ago, that was probably
more than 10 years ago.
So when I think about what Isee out here, it's really
different in rural Japan, right.
Like for people in rural Japan,like going into cities and
going to places like shoppingmalls and stuff is kind of fun
because it's really different,right.
A lot of the people that liveout in this area are like
(28:34):
agricultural families orfamilies that are somehow
related to the tourism industry,so they're out kind of in
nature like as part of lifenormally, right.
But I do see, like you know,there's some, some movement of
Japanese people that want to beoutdoors, whether it's related
to outdoor stuff or living inareas like this and starting
(28:55):
bringing their families here andstarting businesses and stuff
here.
It's a I think it's a smallmovement.
I've heard a bit about how.
You heard a bit about howthere's been a little bit of
revitalization of agriculturewith younger people and kind of
bringing some new agriculturalmethods in.
So I think it's still a reallysmall percentage, but it's
definitely something that'shappening and exciting to see,
(29:16):
particularly when you considerthe level of depopulation in
rural areas in Japan.
I was going to just touch onthat.
Now.
It seems of you know kind ofdepopulation in rural areas in
Japan.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I was going to just touch on that.
Now it seems like Minakami isone of the rare towns that
appears to be growing inpopulation.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Oh, it's not.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's not, no, no, no, it's shrinking.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I forget, like, what the numbers are.
Yeah, but it's one of my kindof my first impressions of this.
When we first moved out here,we went to the elementary school
to talk to the principal, wherethe you know the school where
the boys are going to go, andthey told us that there were
like 160 kids at that school andlike three or four years ago it
had been like 450, right, soit's, the population has dropped
(30:01):
and the past two years they'vetaken basically two or three
different schools and put theminto one.
It just makes more sensefinancially.
So no, the issue is real inMinakami as well, and you know
there's movement here, there'ssome outside investment and you
know the access is so good here.
It makes a lot of sense.
(30:21):
It's a really challengingproblem.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I was being quite hopeful.
I thought, oh, there's one town, one rural town that's growing.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, I mean, that's part of my kind of.
One of my main missions in thisliving here is to create a town
that not only my boys but liketheir further generations, will
want to live in or come back to.
So I don't know what that meansin terms of growth, but you
know, creating a town that'slike vital enough that my sons,
(30:51):
after they've had their chanceto go different places, that
they would choose Minakami overany other place in the world.
So we'll see how successful Iam with being a part of that.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I was going to say, saying this in jest you've got
to work harder, Bring morepeople to.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Minakami.
Yeah, yeah, totally Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Well, kind of on that theme of what you hope for the
future, another LinkedIn posttalked about the immediate
future of experiments.
Like what experiments?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
are you?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
going to do this year .
That's a.
That's a cool prompt, that's acool question.
So what kind of experiments areyou planning to run in your
work and life this year?
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, thanks, that's probably my favorite part of
being an entrepreneur and I'mdefinitely not one of those
people who always wanted to bean entrepreneur, kind of like I
said.
It kind of fell on me, but Ilove it.
I love to play, and so, like Isaid at the end of last year,
there's like a lot of stuffthat's coming up.
(31:55):
One that I kind of started lastyear was running motorcycle
tours, so bringing people fromoverseas to come and ride here,
partly because I love to rideand Japan has such great roads,
but also for me, that's a formof networking that excites me.
People that are adventurousenough to travel to another
country and ride a motorcycleare probably the type of people
(32:18):
that would be a great fit for mein terms of the coaching that I
do and the type of people thatI want to work with.
So, hoping to do a bit more ofthat this year.
A lot of my experimenting isfocused on my local community,
like I said.
So I've got a project coming upwhere I'm going to interview a
bunch of small business ownershere, partly to do something
(32:39):
like you're doing create apodcast to kind of promote their
work, but also to start tounderstand what are some of the
ins and outs of Inakarural-based business, so that
people who want to startsomething in these areas can,
but also to see, like well, howcould we actually support each
other, like what are some of thecontinuing needs of these small
(33:00):
business owners.
So I'm really excited aboutgetting to do that.
I love podcasts and interviewas a medium.
I haven't really done it much,so I'm excited to jump into that
.
I also started a communityproject last year that's called
Haretoke and that's this.
It's a community event where webring together a local chef and
a local artist and then localpeople from the community enjoy
(33:28):
the art, enjoy the food and thenget into some talk based on a
theme.
So I'm doing this with a friendof mine who is also a Japanese
woman, who's also a coach, andso we bring a theme to it and
get people to speak to the themeand then we, at the end of the
discussion, moves towards whatkind of a community do you want
to live in in Minakami.
So kind of starting to create abit of future visioning, the
idea being that you can't reallydepend necessarily on, like the
(33:49):
town offices and some of thoseplaces to make proactive change
in community.
So kind of like a grassrootsidea like well, why don't we
start to get into conversationabout it and see, like, what
would we love to have in thistown?
So that's a that's a continuingexperiment.
That's been really fun as well.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Awesome.
Yeah, I love when you said thisidea of play, like you can take
your work and think, oh, I justwant to play my work, what can
I do?
So that's, that's a cool way toframe it.
So that's, that's a cool way toframe it.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And so does hara toke .
So hara means the gut, it'sactually hare.
So hare toke.
So hare is like a festival day,like a matsuri day, and ke is
like a normal day.
So the idea of like how do wefind the special in the normal
and how do we make the everydayspecial type of thing right?
Um, and the full name of theproject is minakami haritoke
stories, the idea being thatstories are such an old way that
(34:49):
we interact as humans and sohow, like, as you were saying,
how do we get people back inperson and how do we get them
ideally around a fire, and thenhow do we get to prompt some
stories out of them so that wecreate deeper, deeper connection
and some kind of future visionthrough stories?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
love it.
Yeah, I thought you said huddleand that might be related to
the chef.
You know cooking, satisfy thestomach or something hopefully
that's an outcome also.
It has been so far yeah, so Ithink we're touching on this
idea of retreats and leadershipwork.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And so I think you've touched on what you're doing
there.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So do you want to expand on the other work you do
in that space?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Sure, yeah, so the majority of the coaching I do is
still individually based, andso one of the core in-person
programs I have with individualclients I call Wilderness
Visioning Retreats, which isthree days out here in Minakami.
I'm staying at a really niceglamping venue eating good food
but then also going on someoutdoor adventure with the idea
(35:57):
of you leave that program with aclear vision and plan of kind
of what you want to createthrough the work together.
But then I've also run somegroup retreats out here.
I've had a men's group thatI've run off and on and had a
retreat for the men out here,and then I've run some different
company off-sites out here aswell.
So, again, bringing people outinto the outdoors, bringing them
(36:20):
together at a really nice andcomfortable venue, but then also
using local outdoor guides tobring them, like, out onto the
river or up a mountain or orsomething like that.
Yeah, and it's definitely my myfavorite part of my work and I
was excited to talk to you todaybecause I know you've done it
in Gufoo and wanted to swapstories a bit of like, yeah,
what's it like to do it there?
(36:41):
And yeah, what do you findthat's good about that area?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, it was a great experience, the retreat I did in
November and you know, beingthe first one, and obviously
under the theme of ikigai.
And I mean, you'd understand,it's not really a word Japanese
use that often and it's usuallyvery often personal, obviously
(37:06):
subjective, but it also hasbecome a word of psychological
study.
And, yeah, the last four yearsI've interviewed all these
experts and whatnot and therewas always this idea I would
eventually do a retreat and Iwas always talking about it,
kind of knowing it was alwaysthis idea I would eventually do
a retreat, and I was alwaystalking about it, kind of
knowing it was always this piein the sky kind of thing.
And I wasn't really beinghonest with myself because I
(37:29):
wasn't really taking any actionat all to instigate it.
And then, just last year, Ithought that's it, it's got to
happen, I've got to do it thisyear and I thought you know what
would be ideal.
But I realized you know whatwould be ideal.
But I realised first I have tofind accommodation.
(37:51):
I've got to find accommodationfor six people and I had all
these ideas.
And do I make it large andreasonably affordable, which I
thought, oh, that's going to beextremely challenging.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Or do I make?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
it more intimate, have more activities, have
people be able to have access tothese experts I've spoken to.
So I started to craft, or justimagine and then craft what
would be the retreat, and it wasa one-day workshop in Tokyo
where we got to have, you know,ken Moggi showed up and another
(38:22):
professor who's become a reallygood friend, daiki Kato, and he
introduced rolefulness, which isoddly a term he's coined and
he's written on.
That's how we connected.
We had a calligrapher, naokoMikami, a few other people, koji
Miki and Naoko Tomita, who ransomething on purpose, and this
(38:47):
was all in one day.
So it was a very, very big sortof started with a bang and that
was.
We did that at like a vegan cafein Yoyogi, because we had a lot
of people with specific dietaryrequirements.
So that was I mean, that was achallenge to get all that
organized.
(39:08):
And we even went to a like.
We did Shoujin.
We went to one Michelin starShoujin Ryori restaurant, so,
like you know, like a veganrestaurant, and that was amazing
.
And then the next day we tookthe Shinkansen to Gifu, and then
that's where I guess theexperiential started.
(39:28):
And we did Zen, we did sutratracing, we did this beautiful
Zen temple, where we got specialaccess.
Wow cool, we did indigo dyeing.
We had guest speakers and yeah,it was interesting because it
(39:48):
was my first time and I wasprobably a little bit almost on
edge like is everything goingokay?
But at the same time it wentreally well.
The group dynamic was fantasticand I had someone helping me, a
really good friend helping me,who rented a van, so it was
(40:08):
small enough that we didn't needto hire a commercial bus or
anything.
And there were some challenges,like most of the people were
jet lagged, so which it lacked,so that was hard for them.
I damaged my achilles heel,sort of two days before coming
from melbourne.
I was limping for the entireretreat so I thought everyone
(40:33):
thought, oh, nick's been hidingthis problem for for the last
four years or something.
But and probably what I learnedwas you maybe I did too many
activities and we didn't reallydo as much meaningful discussion
as I hoped.
Yeah, but there was certainly alot of group intimacy and it was
(40:54):
very, very special and wecertainly got to or the group
certainly got to taste Japan andJapanese culture, yeah,
obviously, away from all thetourist spots and, you know, see
things they obviously wouldn'tnormally see in their normal
life.
And yeah, it was very it waslike an ikigai experience,
(41:20):
because it had these challenges,it had all this uncertainty and
it resulted in a reallywonderful shared experience with
connection, intimacy, learningnew things, a bit of
self-discovery and great foodand really looking forward to
the next one.
So, yeah, it was a greatsuccess.
(41:42):
So onward and upward for thenext one yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I love the intimate size that you keep it at.
Man, that's, that's really cool.
I was.
I was looking at the one youhave coming up on the website
and it looks amazing and I findthat so relatable what you're
saying about like, well, I gotta, I gotta fill this time up with
structure and I gotta have allthese things, because what if
people don't know what to do andthen, and then the magic of
being like on retreat andtogether is that that stuff,
(42:10):
like actually, if you leavespace for it, that's where the
magic comes in.
You know, it's like people startto create it, like once you're
kind of like a catalyst and thenbut once you're in the space,
it's like okay, here we go, youknow, and, and people show up.
And people show up up andreally bring the cool stuff that
(42:30):
creates all the activities youdid sound amazing and people
tend to create the mostmemorable moments just in some
of the open spaces in between.
So, yeah, I totally find thatrelatable.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, and it seemed to I don't know, it seemed to
flow so well, like we, becausethere are all these logistics
and driving here and there, Imean, and that's why I didn't
want to go to three differentcities or towns.
We pretty much stayed in onetown and then there was another
town we took by train and it'slike a retro train and so just
(43:11):
sitting on the train and one ofour attendees, mira, who I
actually just interviewed, andshe's from the ukraine and she
has this, you know, a tragic yetinspiring story of, you know,
losing everything and having tomove to germany.
She had a shirt saying ikigai,your life.
So she's kind of turned Ikigaiinto a verb.
(43:32):
And we're on this small trainand then this, I don't know,
this 70-year-old lady, you know,with curly hair, very short
Japanese lady, thinking oh,there's no way she would be able
to speak English started sortof speaking fluent english to
her saying, oh, what's this ickyguy thing?
(43:52):
Yeah, wearing.
And they had this amazingconversation just on the train
ride and I just sat back andkind of watched it all and
thought, oh, this is fascinating, having these special moments
where, yeah, it'll probably beone of their highlights and it's
something so simple, justtalking to a stranger on the
(44:13):
train about you know their livesand Japanese culture.
So I think you're right, themagic can happen in the most
unlikely places and, yeah, toobserve that was really, really
special.
So, yeah, I'm kind of inspiredby your work and these retreats.
So do you want to give us ataste of, like one of your
(44:36):
upcoming ones or things you haveplanned, like a specific
example?
Speaker 1 (44:41):
yeah, I mean the.
The one that I'm kind of mostinterested in inviting people to
is is what I mentioned aboutthe wilderness visioning retreat
, and up until now that's been.
You know, when I, when I getinto a coaching engagement with
someone, it's usually startswith a year commitment and
that's like the first part of it.
But what I'm interested in moreand more is just offering that
(45:04):
as a, as a one-off by itself.
Right, just come, becausethere's so much value in
clarifying like, what am Iworking towards in the next six
to 12 months?
And like what is it beyond whatI think is actually possible
because of you know, whateverbeliefs I have?
And then also the structure oflike, well, yeah, well, what
would it take?
Also, like, what declarationsare my willing to make about the
(45:28):
outcomes and what are some ofthe steps that it will require
along the way?
So, yeah, I'd love to.
For people that are in Japan, oreven people that are traveling
to Japan, it's a three-dayoffering that I'd love to have
more people come out andexperience, and part of what
excites me about that so much isthat it also means that I get
(45:48):
to, through that business,contribute to the partners that
I use for it right, like thevenue that people stay at and
the food and the, the guidepartners that I use.
So, um, yeah, combine it with a, with a visit to Japan or
something else, or if you'realready here, then then come out
, and it's really easy to gethere.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
I love it.
Maybe I'll sign up so, butwe'll link to that if you want
from the show notes.
Love to support you on that andon this theme.
I have another quote fromLinkedIn which I really
connected to, so I'll share thatyou wrote.
(46:28):
This morning I'm doing one of myfavorite parts of my work going
to a local Shinkansen stationto pick up some clients who are
coming to Minakami for aleadership team offsite that I
will lead.
There's a tension in thesemoments before they arrive, of
not knowing how it will go orwhat we will co-create today,
and underneath that there's adeeper calm and knowing and I
(46:52):
thought, wow, that's what Iexperienced when I was waiting
for my guests I mean my firsttwo guests to arrive at Tokyo
Station and they were coming allthe way from Germany, these two
lovely Ukrainian women, and Ithought how do I greet them and
what do I say?
And I thought it's all okay,Like you've already done that,
(47:16):
you know these people Justembrace it, yeah, so do you want
to touch on that?
Because I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, I mean, what kind of what that's pointing to?
For me, and even in the waythat you talked about it is,
there's like all the preparationthat we've done to lead up to
that moment is what will holdthe retreat itself and the
people that join, you know.
So it's part of it, is likewhatever specific work we did to
(47:44):
prepare for this actual event.
But there's also our wholefrigging lives.
You know, like everything thatwe've done in our lives informs
the way that we create thesespaces, right, and so creating
some structure, having a planfor what we're going to do with
people, is important.
But equally important is how doI step out of the way, right,
(48:05):
how do I just allow, you know,kind of trust that what I've
brought together, the peoplethat I've brought together, are
the right people in the rightplace under the right
circumstances, and how can Imove out of the way to allow
this space to happen?
And that can be superchallenging, especially when
you're new to it.
Right, it's just like no, I gotto be in control, I got to know
(48:26):
what time this is happening andwhat time that's happening.
And you know, particularly whenyou work in Japan.
One of the beauties of workingin Japan is shit is so organized
, right, but then also peoplewant to know that stuff from you
, like what time are you goingto eat?
And this and this, like well,I'm not really sure, so, so you
can bump up.
You can bump up against that alittle bit in like the, the, the
(48:46):
allowing and the openness, butit's a.
It's an interesting tensionbetween the two, right, and
Japan is just such a greatenvironment for getting to live
that tension and create coolspaces for people.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That's certainly what I felt.
I don't think I could have doneit here, and even just your
network.
And I remember I had to bookseven Shinkansen seats from
Tokyo to Nagoya and I got onlineand I could only get six.
There was a limit.
And I'm like, oh man, I've gotto get these seats.
(49:22):
And then I think I remember theweekend we were arriving, there
was some significant holiday,and so I rang this or just sent
this message to my mate.
The weekend we were arriving,there was some significant
holiday, and so I rang this orjust sent this message to my
mate saying, as you know, I'mdoing this thing and he's got a
company, so I thought he canprobably help out.
I said can you get someShinkansen tickets for me?
(49:44):
Like, can you do this onlinefrom you know, within Japan?
Yeah, and he said, said I'lltake a look.
And he said I can't, but don'tworry about it, I'll go get them
tomorrow morning.
And he got up like six o'clockand went and got them for me,
paid for them, like, and saiddon't worry about the money,
like, pay me when you, when youwhen you're here and he just
(50:05):
took that problem away and it's.
It's so helpful when you havethese Japanese friends who go
out of their way to help you andthen they're like, oh no, it
was nothing.
Yeah, so that's helpful.
And then, yeah, as you say youcan do, obviously the
preparation really helps and youhave all these things ready and
(50:27):
you have a schedule.
But, yeah, not everything goesto plan and you've got to be
comfortable with, at times,letting things go, stepping out
of the way and seeing whathappens, and I think grasping
for control often will result inthings going getting out of
(50:48):
control.
So I like that it's like thegentle way almost result in
things going getting out ofcontrol.
I like that.
It's like the gentle way,almost like just let it happen,
and it's probably usually avaluable insight or learning as
well.
So, yeah, it's fascinating whatcan happen when you bring
people together.
Yeah, it's pretty magical.
(51:09):
So what else is magical isnature.
We've touched on this, but Isuspect this is a strong source
of ikigai in your life and, as Itouched on, I think it's
certainly a universal source.
It's probably a pillar ofhealth.
We haven't really recognisedenough and we neglect it.
(51:30):
It obviously you don't.
So what do you love aboutnature?
Why do you love it so much?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
one of my kind of favorite experiences since we've
moved out here.
And you know, I grew up in apretty rural place, right, so
I'm used to being around naturewhen I was a kid, but I think
when you're kid it's just likeall like the same anyways, right
, it's.
You don't have the sameappreciation, especially after
living in a metropolis likeTokyo for a while, but the thing
(51:59):
that I've, one of the thingsI've enjoyed the most is the
subtlety in the seasons andyou're probably familiar with in
Japan, like the, the, there'sactually 24 seasons.
Right, there's a system of 24seasons.
I always forget what that'scalled in in japanese, but you
really see it here.
It's really cool, you know, justlike the subtlety of, like when
(52:22):
the leaves start to come out inthe spring, and then the actual
different shades of green theybecome, and then, like right in
front of our place, where we'reon the river, and it's like it's
a river valley, and for me it'slike, it's like lungs, right In
the summer it's just thick withgreen and vines and like a
jungle, and then in springeverything drops off and
(52:44):
everything opens up, you know,and it's just such this cool,
this cool contrast and the waythe mountains look and the
different times.
So that's that's been.
One of my favorite things islike there's so many subtleties
available if we can be in anenvironment where we can slow
down enough to see them andnotice them maybe we should also
just briefly touch on your boysgrowing up in a rural
(53:10):
environment with so much nature,but I guess it's kind of going
maybe against mainstream.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
You know most parents in japan would be thinking
better.
You know better educationopportunities closer to the big
cities and whatnot, how theyembrace this life it's been good
.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
So they they were like 10 and 7 when we came out
here, so in a lot of ways theywere kind of city boys when we
moved.
And one of the things thatsurprised me when we moved out
here is, like you boys justnever go outside and run around
by yourselves, right, it's likewhen I was going outside and
doing stuff with them.
So that was certainly adifference to me.
I lived in that environmentfrom a much younger age but
(53:51):
they've thrived.
You know, they enjoy theoutdoors, but I think the bigger
thing they've thrived in is thesmaller community and when I
asked them what it was like togo to school here, we moved here
and they're just like oh,everyone was so open and
friendly, right, Just welcomedme in and it was just like it's
the thing you want to hear whenyou make a big decision.
That changes their lives, youknow.
(54:12):
So they've really thrived inbeing out here and have a lot of
good friends and, like I said,there's a pretty good mix of
Japanese and non-Japanese here.
So they get to be in anenvironment where that's a
really normal thing.
They get to be in anenvironment where that's a
really normal thing.
They're one of the few, one ofthe very few multicultural kids
(54:36):
in the school out here, becausea lot of the kids are still
younger.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
But, yeah they've really thrived out here, Nice.
And you did mention that youknow your wife's part of the
business, but not part of theface of the business, and that
she's been supportive of thechange because she wasn't from
Minakami, was she?
Yeah?
So how was that?
Did it take any convincing orwas she pretty open to the idea?
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, I mean, it was probably one of the biggest
surprises in our relationship sofar is when I you know, I
remember very clearly it was aSunday I had gone out for a run
and came back we were stayinghere at a friend's place for the
weekend and came back andcalled her out onto the deck of
the picnic table and said, oh, Ihave an idea like we could live
(55:22):
here totally.
But yeah, we'd been in theconversation for a while about
like being somewhere other thanTokyo.
So the conversation itselfwasn't new.
And when she tells people whyshe was okay to it, okay to the
ideas, one, because there's areally big supermarket here,
(55:45):
ever practical.
And then, of course, she lovesthe, the hot springs.
She literally goes to onsenevery day here.
She has like a circuit that shegoes to.
She changes each day.
So that's been great and she'sbeen, she's been a real pillar
to me getting to do all thisstuff.
No, I mean a lot of change, alot of dramatic change has
(56:06):
happened and she's just stoodbeside me through all of it.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
That's great.
Yeah, I'm sorry I'm laughingbecause my friend who hosts the
retreat said, oh, nick, weshould take your group to a
supermarket.
I'm like what he said.
You know I love it.
And he's like, you know, japansupermarkets they have all these
interesting things.
And I thought, oh, okay, andyeah, they absolutely loved it,
(56:34):
shopping for an hour, buying allthese weird things.
And I thought, oh, yeah, that'sa cool idea.
So Japanese supermarkets are alot of fun, yeah, and important,
obviously, yeah, definitely.
That's great, though.
You've got support from thebetter half, so awesome.
So, yeah, been a pleasure,corey, to finally touch base,
(56:58):
and we'll have to meet in person.
I'd love to support what you do, so we'll put up links to your
websites and these experimentsyou've got planned for this year
, and I'd love to, yeah, meetyou in person and continue the
conversation.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Yeah, that'd be great .
Again, I appreciate theopportunity to get to chat with
you, Nick.
It's really interesting anddefinitely look forward to
showing you around this placeand getting to hang out in
person, swap some retreat tipsand stories.
That'll be fun.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
Yeah, I'd love that.
I'm sure I can learn a lot fromyou.
So, yeah, thanks so much, Corey, and we'll speak soon.
Awesome Thanks, Nick.
What interests me more and more about nature and
what I've kind of experiencedmore and more since we've been
out here so much closer to itthan the 10 or so years we were
in Tokyo, is the literalnon-separation between us and
nature.
Even using the word nature orearth or outdoors indicates that
(00:23):
there's that it's somethingthat's not us.
And what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
the thing that I'm alsoexperiencing Right?
How is that?
There's actually no separationbetween me and that tree that's
right there and what's that like?
And I don't really know theanswer to that, but that's kind
of what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
this environment and how is thisenvironment me?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Corey Magowan,
american by birth, decades inJapan, global citizen and
certified and an experiencedprofessional coach.
(01:17):
Corey is a leadership andexecutive coach and guides
adventurous leaders to createresults by going beyond what
they are doing and looking atwho they are being, with his
transformational coachingpractice in Japan that
incorporates nature, theoutdoors and adventure, so
working with you sounds like itwould be a lot of fun, corey.
(01:39):
Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, it's great to be here.
Thanks, Nick, for offering todo this together.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Not at all.
So let's get some backgroundwhat brought you to Japan and
what has kept you there for solong?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, kind of a not an uncommon story.
I guess I came here somewhat ona whim with a buddy of mine who
had been in Japan for a coupleof years.
He was going back to study moreJapanese and had found a
Japanese school down in Aichikenand sounded interesting to me.
I had spent most of my twentiesgoing on different
international travels andescapades and hadn't been to
(02:14):
Asia yet.
So I rocked up with a backpackand a surfboard and thought I'd
study for a few months and seewhat it was like, immediately,
ran out of money and then fellinto an English teaching job
which actually worked out reallywell.
I come from a family ofeducators so I really liked
working in education and gettinggood at teaching.
I especially enjoyed workingwith kids and actually had to go
(02:38):
home for a bit when my mom gotsick and passed and just felt
like I wasn't done with Japan.
So I came back this time toChiba, worked at a much bigger
organization and worked quicklyfrom teaching into the
recruiting side of things andthat took me into the next job
that a lot of foreigners do here, which is being a recruiter,
(03:02):
and did that for about a yearand a half and in a lot of ways
it didn't feel like a fit.
I didn't feel like I fit in thebusiness world and in a suit
and all of that, and found acool opportunity working at
what's called an edutainmenttheme park.
It's this place called Kidzania,which had started in Mexico and
Tokyo was its firstinternational franchise.
(03:23):
So I got to join a company thatwas really fresh and new and
pretty soon after starting andgot to work my way up fairly
quickly there up to a directorlevel role.
So I had my first experience askind of higher level management
in an organization and thefirst foreigner that had done
that in that organization andquickly saw like wow, management
(03:46):
is really I don't know if it'sokay to swear on the show or not
, but it's quite, you know andjust a growing curiosity about
like why does this happen?
You know, why does managementturn out the way that it does?
And that kind of led me downthe path of learning more about
organizational development andeventually that led me to
(04:06):
coaching.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Wow, yeah, it's quite a unique journey, a lot of.
I mean, I have so many friendswho went to Japan or met so many
foreigners in Japan who did theteaching thing, and then
eventually everyone goes homeand then you're sort of the one
odd one out who stays.
But when did you first arrivein japan?
Speaker 1 (04:27):
uh 1999.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So yeah, I spent the uh new year's into 2000 here,
yeah yeah, okay yeah, yeah yeah,I was there for the two way the
bug, what they call that bug.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
The Y2K thing.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Y2K.
Yeah, all right, but I did.
Yeah, I sort of kept coming andgoing to Japan, but it sounds
like you've stayed there prettymuch since what?
The early 2000s?
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, like I said, I had that one short stint to go
home.
And when I say I wasn't donewith Japan, I think it was a
combination of like not likebeing curious, having made some
really good friends here, butalso just not really knowing
what the hell I was I was doingwith myself.
You know, I had just lost mymom, which was unexpected, and
(05:19):
didn't really feel like I had aplace that fit back in the US.
And, yeah, I'd been getting upto some really fun stuff in
Japan and, yeah, decided to comeback and have just continued to
have like a community offriends and work that I enjoyed,
and I didn't actually meet mynow wife until I was 35.
(05:41):
So that was, you know, six orseven years after first arriving
.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Okay, wow, yeah, I probably lost my mom the same
time as you and I was.
I went back to, I came back toAustralia to be with her and
then, yeah, kind of felt theneed to go back to Japan after
all of that.
So, yeah, I love japan, youobviously do so.
(06:07):
We'll talk more about that andwe'll talk about where you live,
minakami.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So tell me what life is like there oh man, it'd be a
long podcast if I told you allthe stuff that I loved about
minakami.
But uh, yeah, it's just.
It's an incredible communitylanded here kind of through a
friend who had a place out here,an australian friend, actually,
a lot of uh aussies and kiwisout here, very fewer of us
(06:33):
americans, which is probablygood for me, um, um, but yeah,
it's just this.
It's a pretty humble bluecollar and agricultural town
that has quite a few onsens, soit's got a bit of a tourist
industry as well.
But it's got amazing accessfrom Tokyo.
You ride the bullet train forabout an hour and five minutes
(06:55):
and you're here.
So the first year that we movedout here from Tokyo, I actually
commuted by Shinkansen into workfor a year and it was totally
doable.
So we're right on the foot ofwhat's called the Tanigawa
mountain range, which is thismountain range that separates
this prefecture of Gunma fromthe next one, niigata, and then
(07:15):
Niigata is right on the ocean.
So it's just this coolcombination of really beautiful
mountains.
We've got the Tanigawa river,which is the second longest
river in Japan, and then a lotof other rivers that feed into
that, so just a lot of beautifulwildlife, really.
Your listeners may be familiarwith, like rural Japan and how
(07:38):
it can be quite closed even toJapanese people.
And Minakami is really theopposite of that.
We've always experienced it tobe a very open and generous
community, and there have beenforeigners living here probably
40 to 50 years anyways, peoplethat are drawn to the outdoor
scene and the beauty of it.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
So, yeah, it's quite the place All right, sounds like
a good place, so I'll come andvisit, yeah, yeah, so, as you
know, you've been on my radarfor a while and even now and
then I would see these LinkedInposts and thought, oh, I've got
to reach out to Corey.
So I'd like to share one ofthem that you posted actually
(08:18):
quite recently, and it's aboutvulnerability, and I appreciate
that.
I sort of really appreciatepeople being vulnerable and I
think it's something we need tosee more.
So I'll quote you and we cantouch on it.
You wrote have you smiled fromyour heart?
Yet this year, to be honest, ithas taken me longer than I would
(08:39):
have liked.
I ended 2024 with so muchenergy for the projects that I
wanted to take on this year andyet, despite a solid two weeks
off for the holidays, when Istarted back, I couldn't find
that energy.
Instead, I felt loneliness.
I love my work and yet I had astark awareness of how isolated
I can feel as a solopreneur,heading to my office on my own
(09:02):
without colleagues to chat with.
And, yeah, I kind of instantlyresonated with this related to
this and thought, yeah, that'spretty much what I feel
sometimes and that's what I do.
I work alone.
I have, of course, a lot ofconnections, but, yeah, most of
the time I'm by myself gettingmy work done.
(09:24):
And yeah, me too.
At the end of last year I wasboth burnt out and also excited
for what was possible this year,but I kind of collapsed into
this state of I'm tired and Ifeel lonely, and it seemed
different to other times, butI'm out of it now, so that's
(09:47):
good.
So I know you've had your firstheart smile this year, so do
you want to share what that was?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Sure, and just to be fully transparent, like, I love
that you brought this up and Istill feel like I'm in the
rawness of it.
You know like it turns outhaving a heart smile doesn't
just like make everything.
I love that you brought this upand I still feel like I'm in
the rawness of it.
You know, like, um, uh turnsout, having a heart smile
doesn't just like makeeverything go perfectly Right,
um, so, yeah, there's um,there's a thing of like, um,
(10:17):
kind of feeling like I can'tquite get out of my own way, you
know, and like create themomentum and the projects that I
, that I have lined up for thisyear.
But the great kind of smile andday that I had was just getting
to go out snowboarding with myboys.
I have two teenage boys, 17 and14, um, and they're great boys
(10:39):
and they're independent teenageboys and they want to, for the
most part, do the thing withtheir friends.
But, uh, that you know theysurprised me with wanting to go
out riding with me, and so wemade a day of it and had a lot
of beautiful snow and we went toa resort that we hadn't been to
before and it was just likeseeing the two of them, you know
, in the fresh snow and thewhoops of like joy and and just
(11:01):
doing their thing thing, um, andit's just like the simplicity
of like this is, this is whatit's all for.
Yeah, you know, like this is,this is what the work is for,
this is what the kind of thechallenging times are for is
just like.
So we get to do these simplethings, we get to spend some
time together, we get to be outin nature, we get to, we get to
(11:21):
whoop out loud, um, when we'rehaving some fun.
So, yeah, it was nice, it wasjust like kind of, it was like a
recentering and like, oh, yeah,I'm, I'm here to help the boys
have these experiences and alsohave these experiences myself as
well nice.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, it doesn't take much.
All it takes is sometimes justto spend a bit of quality time
with the people you love.
And, as you touched on it, yeah, obviously it's not the answer
to all life's problems andchallenges, but it is what you
live for and I guess maybebecause it's as boys grow and I
(11:58):
guess you do end up spendingless time with them when you do
spend that time with them, it'svery precious and meaningful
with them.
When you do spend that timewith them, it's very precious
and meaningful.
I have a boy who's turning 21soon and it's in these playful
moments that I really enjoy,where, I don't know why, we're
kind of going back to anactivity we used to do when he
(12:19):
was much younger.
But we have this soft toy birdthat's really for my cat.
We're sort of having thesethrowing competitions into the
laundry basket and there's likea penalty and the loser has to
go out shopping and buy somesnacks or, you know, pick up
dinner.
So it's like that's.
(12:40):
It doesn't take much to have abit of fun.
Yeah, but with Japan and I'veexperienced this you do have,
you know, isolation andloneliness, which I did struggle
(13:01):
with at times.
So how do you handle that?
And is it better that you arein a place with nature and away
from the hustle and bustle ofcity, or is it, yeah, the same
type of loneliness, or is it adifferent type of loneliness?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
yeah, great question.
I mean, first I'm I'm someonethat's always been really
comfortable on my own, like themajority of kind of travels and
adventures I've been on havebeen solo and have also been
like really lonely during someof those times.
You know, it's like a, um, kindof self-created initiation
(13:36):
experiences, you know, and sothat's that's part of it.
And then you know, I think partof it for for coaches in
particular, and probably similarfor like therapists and other
people working in developmentwork these days, you know the
beauty of getting to do itonline and the beauty of how
(13:56):
relatively easy it'd be, it canbe, to start your own business
and do this thing.
Then the other side of it isthat you're sitting in your own
space doing it and also, like inthe work that we do, we take on
a lot from people, right, wetake on a lot in terms of the
stuff that they're being withand the kind of the energy that
comes through being inconversation with them.
(14:16):
You know I used to have somegood friends who were massage
therapists way back when andthey used to talk about just
like the impact of workingparticularly with people who are
like real kind of like rigidand all that and what it was
like and, um, it's, I think it'sreally similar.
You know, we're working withpeople on some real deep shit in
their lives and, um, it can beeasy to take some of that on
(14:39):
Right.
So, um, the ways that I have todeal with it you know.
First, I have personal practicesthat I do every day, things
like journaling and meditationand movement routines.
I am outside almost every dayfor one reason or another, even
if it's just the walk from myhouse to the office, but I'm
outside quite a bit.
(15:01):
And then, like, try to have asmany intentional like
communities and support systemsas I can.
So it's like coachingcolleagues, and a lot of them
are based outside of Japan buthaving I have one in particular,
really core community that Iwork with, and then I'm focusing
more and more on developingreally local community.
(15:22):
So I have, I have some goodfriends here in Minakami and I
have some programs that I'vestarted in Minakami that are
basically around bolsteringcommunity, because I need it.
You know, I think a lot aboutwhat it's going to be like to be
an old man here, an oldforeigner here, and like, I want
, I want to make sure I have mypeople, you know the people that
(15:46):
I feel really connected to.
So so, yeah, those are, thoseare the kind of the things that
I'm like intentionally workingtowards and yeah.
And then, you know again,there's like this sense of
coming out to feel veryprivileged, to have this
beautiful space that I work in.
It's just this office that'sbig enough for me and a client
to sit in, with a view of ariver, and all that.
And, yeah, you can also be like, fuck, yeah, it's just me.
(16:08):
Who am I going to reach out to?
You know?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Well, that's a really proactive way to handle life
and loneliness when it visits,and I love the idea of community
, idea of community, and that'ssomething I've created online,
but I'm really looking forwardto creating it in person in
Japan.
And, yeah, there's nothingquite like connecting with
(16:35):
people in person and sharing andfinding similarities and unique
differences and celebratingthat and just having a good time
and realizing ah, it's alwayswith people that you seem to
have the best moments in life.
So it sounds like this lifeyou've built for yourself has
(16:56):
made you more resilient.
Would that be a fair statement,because not many people do what
you do?
Yeah, it comes with all thesechallenges learning language,
culture, taking risk.
I imagine your previousemployment was financially a
good gig, but you couldn't.
Your value system or who youwere was saying I can't do this
(17:19):
anymore.
Yeah, so you probably took riskas well.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, and that's something that I've actually
been pretty comfortable with formost of my life.
You know, that's just theadventure aspect.
I've always really thrived onchange and actually struggle
with like sameness.
So, you know, becoming a fatherand a husband and you know,
doing the right thing of havingthe good job in a corporate
(17:46):
environment and all that was, uh, that was hard man, that was
really hard.
I don't think I realized howhard it was until I came out
here and got to start to peelback some of those layers, you
know, and it came with a lot ofcosts I mean, like kind of my.
My key change story here is thatI got what I thought was the
dream job of being a COO of anoutdoor and adventure company.
(18:10):
I was like, oh yeah, now I'mworking in my town and doing
this kind of job that I want todo, and within a year it had all
fallen apart dramatically,which was partly COVID related
and partly related to, you know,kind of a fault in leadership,
both on the guy that was runningthe organization and, frankly,
(18:30):
on me.
You know I wasn't the right guyfor the role and that threw me
into a real spin of like I'vegot no job I'm supposed to
provide for my family, there'sno way I'm going back to Tokyo
and putting a suit on.
So you know what the hell am Igoing to do?
And it was also my firstexperience with kind of doing
the counterintuitive thing andbe like I'm going to spend some
(18:52):
money and get my own friggingcoach Cause I don't know what to
do right now.
And that was a real gamechanger for me.
I mean, I was already a coachat that point and I had done
some coaching, but I'd neverinvested in it for myself.
And yeah boy, that reallychanged things.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It certainly can.
Perspective's so valuable whenyou often have these beliefs
that things are going to bedifficult or hard or that you're
not quite ready yet.
And then you have someonechallenge all that and say, well
, hang on, is that true?
Yeah, what if it was easy?
And yeah, one conversation or ahandful of conversations can
(19:34):
really change your life, youknow, and I guess, change the
trajectory of your life.
And, yeah, I guess you end upalso with your choices.
You decide the life you'reliving and I'm kind of amazed
that most of us don't reallyhave control.
You know, think we don't havecontrol of that or we allow
(19:57):
society or our families or otherpeople kind of guide us on what
we should do, never reallycontemplating deeply on thinking
what do I really want to do andis it worth the risk?
And it absolutely is in mostcases.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
And what's the expression.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I'd rather try something on my own than not try
at all and live a life whereI'd rather try something on my
own than not try at all and livea life where I'm living in
conflict with my values.
Yeah, you'd rather try and failthan not try at all.
So, yeah, let's switch gearsand look at adventure, something
important to you.
So you guide adventurousleaders and I'd like to know
(20:41):
what you mean by adventure andwho are these adventurous
leaders you work with.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, I appreciate that question because I think,
you know, adventure can oftenget put into like this idea of
extreme things.
You know, extreme types ofexpeditions and stuff like that,
and I've done a little bit ofthat.
But that's not like, that's notreally what gets me excited.
You know what's, as you werementioning, like the choices
(21:11):
I've made, particularly in thepast four or five years, are
stuff that I never imagined thatI could or would do, and it
often scares the shit out of meas I'm doing it.
But it's just about.
It's about choosing kind of thebold thing that really excites
you, Right.
And so when I talk aboutadventurous leaders, I mean,
first of all, leadership itselfis innately adventurous, right.
(21:33):
And so I want to work withpeople who are willing to make
kind of the bold choicesprobably the counterintuitive
choices and people that arewilling to come out here and be
with me a bit in the outdoors.
And you know, what we do whenthey're out here depends on a
combination of things, right, itdepends on their comfort level,
of course, safety and all ofthat, but it's actually a
(21:57):
willingness to really betogether in person for, you know
, usually three days, and reallyget into some stuff.
You know, like what's really,what's?
What do you want to create?
What's what's kind ofunderneath, maybe some of the,
the ways of being or thoughtsthat you think are in the way of
creating those results?
Yeah, and the outdoors are.
(22:17):
It's great Like getting peopleinto the outdoors is such a cool
mirror for how they are incomplex leadership situations.
You know, I just see it againand again and it always just
makes me laugh.
It's just laugh with joy, right, Like not laughing at the
leaders.
There it is again, so it'sreally cool.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
It does sound cool.
nature and the outdoors is sucha conducive environment to to
growth or change, or toreflection or to realizing oh,
the world is so much bigger andI'm a part of it, even if it's
just a small part of it.
I'm part of this and I mean we.
(22:56):
We talk about health.
So we talk about usually healthis diet, exercise and sleep.
I think eventually there'll bepeople start saying the research
shows time in nature is crucialto your health, your well-being
, and most people don't spendany time in nature during their
(23:19):
work week and if they're luckythey might get away.
But we think about exercises,going to the gym often.
You know a lot of people run,but they're still not running in
nature.
So is that how you see nature?
Like?
It's this environment that doesso much for you physically,
(23:40):
emotionally, spiritually and soon.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
I'll give that a yes, and Because it's what interests
me more and more about natureand what I've kind of
experienced more and more sincewe've been out here so much
closer to it than the you know10 or so years we were in Tokyo
is the literal non-separationbetween us and nature, right,
(24:06):
even using the word nature orearth or outdoors indicates that
it's something that's not us.
And what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
the thing that I'm alsoexperiencing, right?
How is that?
There's actually no separationbetween me and that tree?
That's right there, and what'sthat like?
And I don't really know theanswer to that, but that's kind
(24:27):
of what interests me more andmore is like how am I actually
this environment and how is thisenvironment me and it's I think
it's the stuff that peoplesense when they're out here that
that's true, right, that thisis actually, even though it may
feel a little bit scary orunfamiliar, whatever, there's
also a kind of a deeper sensingof like, well, actually, this is
, this is all, just actually apart of me, this is all.
(24:48):
I'm all connected to the stuffthat's out here and the things
that I experience and the waythat it impacts me when I'm here
is because of thatnon-separation between myself
and this natural environmentthat makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I, yeah, I mean, I think for most people when we go
back to nature, it feels veryfamiliar, it feels like, ah, I
should be here.
And I mean I think Japanese,you know Shintoism touches on
that idea like separatingyourself from nature is very
damaging and, yeah, you're apart of nature.
(25:24):
So, yeah, I've wanted to delveinto Shintoism a bit sort of
that regard, learning more aboutit.
But it sounds like a lot ofyour work, and this is an
assumption from what I've readon your website.
You talk about mind to heartecology.
Slowing down and letting go iskey aspects of what you do.
(25:44):
So, would you say, has yourcoaching been influenced by
japanese culture and customs?
Speaker 1 (25:53):
well, yes, because I've been here so long, right, I
mean, you know very well howmuch being in japan kind of
makes you Japanese, even thoughas a foreigner you're never
actually seen as Japanese, butyeah, very much.
So just by being here, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
But most of my training and you know kind of
groups that I've been in havenot been Japan-based, so it's
kind of an interesting mix ofthe two.
Yeah, what you were, what youwere saying about, like Japanese
people and the relationship tonature as well, I was flashing
back to like when I worked atthat place, kidzania.
Part of the concept of thatthat business is that it's
(26:36):
always located inside a shoppingmall, and so I had to work
inside a frigging shopping mallfor seven years.
Mall, and so I had to workinside a frigging shopping mall
for seven years, and it alwaysblew my mind on the most
beautiful days how full theseplaces would be of Japanese
people.
And it's just like what isgoing on here.
Why are people choosing thisinstead of being in the outdoors
(26:56):
?
So sorry, that's a bit of anaside from what influences my
coaching, but it's one of theinteresting contradictions about
being here and the really longand deep connection to nature
that Japanese people have, right, yeah, Isn't that fascinating?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
It is fascinating because, I mean, I hold that
perception that perhaps Japaneseare more connected to nature or
have an understanding of thevalue of nature and don't see
themselves separate to it.
Yet recently it seems like, asyou mentioned, there's been more
times indoors and shopping, andeven in my wife's area in the
(27:36):
last sort of two decades therehave been talkie outlets that
was built.
There's been something else Ican't remember the name of, but
another massive shopping complexand this is almost like a
country town and you know,people from Tokyo travel to Toki
to shop at Toki outlets, not tocheck out the local culture or
(28:00):
nature.
I'm thinking, gee, that's adedication to shopping, that.
I've never seen before.
So are you seeing that happenmore in Japan now?
Speaker 1 (28:11):
I don't know.
I mean again, this was quite awhile ago, that was probably
more than 10 years ago.
So when I think about what Isee out here, it's really
different in rural Japan, right.
Like for people in rural Japan,like going into cities and
going to places like shoppingmalls and stuff is kind of fun
because it's really different,right.
A lot of the people that liveout in this area are like
(28:34):
agricultural families orfamilies that are somehow
related to the tourism industry,so they're out kind of in
nature like as part of lifenormally, right.
But I do see, like you know,there's some, some movement of
Japanese people that want to beoutdoors, whether it's related
to outdoor stuff or living inareas like this and starting
(28:55):
bringing their families here andstarting businesses and stuff
here.
It's a I think it's a smallmovement.
I've heard a bit about how.
You heard a bit about howthere's been a little bit of
revitalization of agriculturewith younger people and kind of
bringing some new agriculturalmethods in.
So I think it's still a reallysmall percentage, but it's
definitely something that'shappening and exciting to see,
(29:16):
particularly when you considerthe level of depopulation in
rural areas in Japan.
I was going to just touch onthat.
Now.
It seems of you know kind ofdepopulation in rural areas in
Japan.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I was going to just touch on that.
Now it seems like Minakami isone of the rare towns that
appears to be growing inpopulation.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Oh, it's not.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's not, no, no, no, it's shrinking.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I forget, like, what the numbers are.
Yeah, but it's one of my kindof my first impressions of this.
When we first moved out here,we went to the elementary school
to talk to the principal, wherethe you know the school where
the boys are going to go, andthey told us that there were
like 160 kids at that school andlike three or four years ago it
had been like 450, right, soit's, the population has dropped
(30:01):
and the past two years they'vetaken basically two or three
different schools and put theminto one.
It just makes more sensefinancially.
So no, the issue is real inMinakami as well, and you know
there's movement here, there'ssome outside investment and you
know the access is so good here.
It makes a lot of sense.
(30:21):
It's a really challengingproblem.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I was being quite hopeful.
I thought, oh, there's one town, one rural town that's growing.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, I mean, that's part of my kind of.
One of my main missions in thisliving here is to create a town
that not only my boys but liketheir further generations, will
want to live in or come back to.
So I don't know what that meansin terms of growth, but you
know, creating a town that'slike vital enough that my sons,
(30:51):
after they've had their chanceto go different places, that
they would choose Minakami overany other place in the world.
So we'll see how successful Iam with being a part of that.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I was going to say, saying this in jest you've got
to work harder, Bring morepeople to.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Minakami.
Yeah, yeah, totally Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Well, kind of on that theme of what you hope for the
future, another LinkedIn posttalked about the immediate
future of experiments.
Like what experiments?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
are you?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
going to do this year .
That's a.
That's a cool prompt, that's acool question.
So what kind of experiments areyou planning to run in your
work and life this year?
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, thanks, that's probably my favorite part of
being an entrepreneur and I'mdefinitely not one of those
people who always wanted to bean entrepreneur, kind of like I
said.
It kind of fell on me, but Ilove it.
I love to play, and so, like Isaid at the end of last year,
there's like a lot of stuffthat's coming up.
(31:55):
One that I kind of started lastyear was running motorcycle
tours, so bringing people fromoverseas to come and ride here,
partly because I love to rideand Japan has such great roads,
but also for me, that's a formof networking that excites me.
People that are adventurousenough to travel to another
country and ride a motorcycleare probably the type of people
(32:18):
that would be a great fit for mein terms of the coaching that I
do and the type of people thatI want to work with.
So, hoping to do a bit more ofthat this year.
A lot of my experimenting isfocused on my local community,
like I said.
So I've got a project coming upwhere I'm going to interview a
bunch of small business ownershere, partly to do something
(32:39):
like you're doing create apodcast to kind of promote their
work, but also to start tounderstand what are some of the
ins and outs of Inakarural-based business, so that
people who want to startsomething in these areas can,
but also to see, like well, howcould we actually support each
other, like what are some of thecontinuing needs of these small
(33:00):
business owners.
So I'm really excited aboutgetting to do that.
I love podcasts and interviewas a medium.
I haven't really done it much,so I'm excited to jump into that
.
I also started a communityproject last year that's called
Haretoke and that's this.
It's a community event where webring together a local chef and
a local artist and then localpeople from the community enjoy
(33:28):
the art, enjoy the food and thenget into some talk based on a
theme.
So I'm doing this with a friendof mine who is also a Japanese
woman, who's also a coach, andso we bring a theme to it and
get people to speak to the themeand then we, at the end of the
discussion, moves towards whatkind of a community do you want
to live in in Minakami.
So kind of starting to create abit of future visioning, the
idea being that you can't reallydepend necessarily on, like the
(33:49):
town offices and some of thoseplaces to make proactive change
in community.
So kind of like a grassrootsidea like well, why don't we
start to get into conversationabout it and see, like, what
would we love to have in thistown?
So that's a that's a continuingexperiment.
That's been really fun as well.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Awesome.
Yeah, I love when you said thisidea of play, like you can take
your work and think, oh, I justwant to play my work, what can
I do?
So that's, that's a cool way toframe it.
So that's, that's a cool way toframe it.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And so does hara toke .
So hara means the gut, it'sactually hare.
So hare toke.
So hare is like a festival day,like a matsuri day, and ke is
like a normal day.
So the idea of like how do wefind the special in the normal
and how do we make the everydayspecial type of thing right?
Um, and the full name of theproject is minakami haritoke
stories, the idea being thatstories are such an old way that
(34:49):
we interact as humans and sohow, like, as you were saying,
how do we get people back inperson and how do we get them
ideally around a fire, and thenhow do we get to prompt some
stories out of them so that wecreate deeper, deeper connection
and some kind of future visionthrough stories?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
love it.
Yeah, I thought you said huddleand that might be related to
the chef.
You know cooking, satisfy thestomach or something hopefully
that's an outcome also.
It has been so far yeah, so Ithink we're touching on this
idea of retreats and leadershipwork.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And so I think you've touched on what you're doing
there.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
So do you want to expand on the other work you do
in that space?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Sure, yeah, so the majority of the coaching I do is
still individually based, andso one of the core in-person
programs I have with individualclients I call Wilderness
Visioning Retreats, which isthree days out here in Minakami.
I'm staying at a really niceglamping venue eating good food
but then also going on someoutdoor adventure with the idea
(35:57):
of you leave that program with aclear vision and plan of kind
of what you want to createthrough the work together.
But then I've also run somegroup retreats out here.
I've had a men's group thatI've run off and on and had a
retreat for the men out here,and then I've run some different
company off-sites out here aswell.
So, again, bringing people outinto the outdoors, bringing them
(36:20):
together at a really nice andcomfortable venue, but then also
using local outdoor guides tobring them, like, out onto the
river or up a mountain or orsomething like that.
Yeah, and it's definitely my myfavorite part of my work and I
was excited to talk to you todaybecause I know you've done it
in Gufoo and wanted to swapstories a bit of like, yeah,
what's it like to do it there?
(36:41):
And yeah, what do you findthat's good about that area?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, it was a great experience, the retreat I did in
November and you know, beingthe first one, and obviously
under the theme of ikigai.
And I mean, you'd understand,it's not really a word Japanese
use that often and it's usuallyvery often personal, obviously
(37:06):
subjective, but it also hasbecome a word of psychological
study.
And, yeah, the last four yearsI've interviewed all these
experts and whatnot and therewas always this idea I would
eventually do a retreat and Iwas always talking about it,
kind of knowing it was alwaysthis idea I would eventually do
a retreat, and I was alwaystalking about it, kind of
knowing it was always this piein the sky kind of thing.
And I wasn't really beinghonest with myself because I
(37:29):
wasn't really taking any actionat all to instigate it.
And then, just last year, Ithought that's it, it's got to
happen, I've got to do it thisyear and I thought you know what
would be ideal.
But I realized you know whatwould be ideal.
But I realised first I have tofind accommodation.
(37:51):
I've got to find accommodationfor six people and I had all
these ideas.
And do I make it large andreasonably affordable, which I
thought, oh, that's going to beextremely challenging.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Or do I make?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
it more intimate, have more activities, have
people be able to have access tothese experts I've spoken to.
So I started to craft, or justimagine and then craft what
would be the retreat, and it wasa one-day workshop in Tokyo
where we got to have, you know,ken Moggi showed up and another
(38:22):
professor who's become a reallygood friend, daiki Kato, and he
introduced rolefulness, which isoddly a term he's coined and
he's written on.
That's how we connected.
We had a calligrapher, naokoMikami, a few other people, koji
Miki and Naoko Tomita, who ransomething on purpose, and this
(38:47):
was all in one day.
So it was a very, very big sortof started with a bang and that
was.
We did that at like a vegan cafein Yoyogi, because we had a lot
of people with specific dietaryrequirements.
So that was I mean, that was achallenge to get all that
organized.
(39:08):
And we even went to a like.
We did Shoujin.
We went to one Michelin starShoujin Ryori restaurant, so,
like you know, like a veganrestaurant, and that was amazing
.
And then the next day we tookthe Shinkansen to Gifu, and then
that's where I guess theexperiential started.
(39:28):
And we did Zen, we did sutratracing, we did this beautiful
Zen temple, where we got specialaccess.
Wow cool, we did indigo dyeing.
We had guest speakers and yeah,it was interesting because it
(39:48):
was my first time and I wasprobably a little bit almost on
edge like is everything goingokay?
But at the same time it wentreally well.
The group dynamic was fantasticand I had someone helping me, a
really good friend helping me,who rented a van, so it was
(40:08):
small enough that we didn't needto hire a commercial bus or
anything.
And there were some challenges,like most of the people were
jet lagged, so which it lacked,so that was hard for them.
I damaged my achilles heel,sort of two days before coming
from melbourne.
I was limping for the entireretreat so I thought everyone
(40:33):
thought, oh, nick's been hidingthis problem for for the last
four years or something.
But and probably what I learnedwas you maybe I did too many
activities and we didn't reallydo as much meaningful discussion
as I hoped.
Yeah, but there was certainly alot of group intimacy and it was
(40:54):
very, very special and wecertainly got to or the group
certainly got to taste Japan andJapanese culture, yeah,
obviously, away from all thetourist spots and, you know, see
things they obviously wouldn'tnormally see in their normal
life.
And yeah, it was very it waslike an ikigai experience,
(41:20):
because it had these challenges,it had all this uncertainty and
it resulted in a reallywonderful shared experience with
connection, intimacy, learningnew things, a bit of
self-discovery and great foodand really looking forward to
the next one.
So, yeah, it was a greatsuccess.
(41:42):
So onward and upward for thenext one yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I love the intimate size that you keep it at.
Man, that's, that's really cool.
I was.
I was looking at the one youhave coming up on the website
and it looks amazing and I findthat so relatable what you're
saying about like, well, I gotta, I gotta fill this time up with
structure and I gotta have allthese things, because what if
people don't know what to do andthen, and then the magic of
being like on retreat andtogether is that that stuff,
(42:10):
like actually, if you leavespace for it, that's where the
magic comes in.
You know, it's like people startto create it, like once you're
kind of like a catalyst and thenbut once you're in the space,
it's like okay, here we go, youknow, and, and people show up.
And people show up up andreally bring the cool stuff that
(42:30):
creates all the activities youdid sound amazing and people
tend to create the mostmemorable moments just in some
of the open spaces in between.
So, yeah, I totally find thatrelatable.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, and it seemed to I don't know, it seemed to
flow so well, like we, becausethere are all these logistics
and driving here and there, Imean, and that's why I didn't
want to go to three differentcities or towns.
We pretty much stayed in onetown and then there was another
town we took by train and it'slike a retro train and so just
(43:11):
sitting on the train and one ofour attendees, mira, who I
actually just interviewed, andshe's from the ukraine and she
has this, you know, a tragic yetinspiring story of, you know,
losing everything and having tomove to germany.
She had a shirt saying ikigai,your life.
So she's kind of turned Ikigaiinto a verb.
(43:32):
And we're on this small trainand then this, I don't know,
this 70-year-old lady, you know,with curly hair, very short
Japanese lady, thinking oh,there's no way she would be able
to speak English started sortof speaking fluent english to
her saying, oh, what's this ickyguy thing?
(43:52):
Yeah, wearing.
And they had this amazingconversation just on the train
ride and I just sat back andkind of watched it all and
thought, oh, this is fascinating, having these special moments
where, yeah, it'll probably beone of their highlights and it's
something so simple, justtalking to a stranger on the
(44:13):
train about you know their livesand Japanese culture.
So I think you're right, themagic can happen in the most
unlikely places and, yeah, toobserve that was really, really
special.
So, yeah, I'm kind of inspiredby your work and these retreats.
So do you want to give us ataste of, like one of your
(44:36):
upcoming ones or things you haveplanned, like a specific
example?
Speaker 1 (44:41):
yeah, I mean the.
The one that I'm kind of mostinterested in inviting people to
is is what I mentioned aboutthe wilderness visioning retreat
, and up until now that's been.
You know, when I, when I getinto a coaching engagement with
someone, it's usually startswith a year commitment and
that's like the first part of it.
But what I'm interested in moreand more is just offering that
(45:04):
as a, as a one-off by itself.
Right, just come, becausethere's so much value in
clarifying like, what am Iworking towards in the next six
to 12 months?
And like what is it beyond whatI think is actually possible
because of you know, whateverbeliefs I have?
And then also the structure oflike, well, yeah, well, what
would it take?
Also, like, what declarationsare my willing to make about the
(45:28):
outcomes and what are some ofthe steps that it will require
along the way?
So, yeah, I'd love to.
For people that are in Japan, oreven people that are traveling
to Japan, it's a three-dayoffering that I'd love to have
more people come out andexperience, and part of what
excites me about that so much isthat it also means that I get
(45:48):
to, through that business,contribute to the partners that
I use for it right, like thevenue that people stay at and
the food and the, the guidepartners that I use.
So, um, yeah, combine it with a, with a visit to Japan or
something else, or if you'realready here, then then come out
, and it's really easy to gethere.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
I love it.
Maybe I'll sign up so, butwe'll link to that if you want
from the show notes.
Love to support you on that andon this theme.
I have another quote fromLinkedIn which I really
connected to, so I'll share thatyou wrote.
(46:28):
This morning I'm doing one of myfavorite parts of my work going
to a local Shinkansen stationto pick up some clients who are
coming to Minakami for aleadership team offsite that I
will lead.
There's a tension in thesemoments before they arrive, of
not knowing how it will go orwhat we will co-create today,
and underneath that there's adeeper calm and knowing and I
(46:52):
thought, wow, that's what Iexperienced when I was waiting
for my guests I mean my firsttwo guests to arrive at Tokyo
Station and they were coming allthe way from Germany, these two
lovely Ukrainian women, and Ithought how do I greet them and
what do I say?
And I thought it's all okay,Like you've already done that,
(47:16):
you know these people Justembrace it, yeah, so do you want
to touch on that?
Because I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, I mean, what kind of what that's pointing to?
For me, and even in the waythat you talked about it is,
there's like all the preparationthat we've done to lead up to
that moment is what will holdthe retreat itself and the
people that join, you know.
So it's part of it, is likewhatever specific work we did to
(47:44):
prepare for this actual event.
But there's also our wholefrigging lives.
You know, like everything thatwe've done in our lives informs
the way that we create thesespaces, right, and so creating
some structure, having a planfor what we're going to do with
people, is important.
But equally important is how doI step out of the way, right,
(48:05):
how do I just allow, you know,kind of trust that what I've
brought together, the peoplethat I've brought together, are
the right people in the rightplace under the right
circumstances, and how can Imove out of the way to allow
this space to happen?
And that can be superchallenging, especially when
you're new to it.
Right, it's just like no, I gotto be in control, I got to know
(48:26):
what time this is happening andwhat time that's happening.
And you know, particularly whenyou work in Japan.
One of the beauties of workingin Japan is shit is so organized
, right, but then also peoplewant to know that stuff from you
, like what time are you goingto eat?
And this and this, like well,I'm not really sure, so, so you
can bump up.
You can bump up against that alittle bit in like the, the, the
(48:46):
allowing and the openness, butit's a.
It's an interesting tensionbetween the two, right, and
Japan is just such a greatenvironment for getting to live
that tension and create coolspaces for people.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That's certainly what I felt.
I don't think I could have doneit here, and even just your
network.
And I remember I had to bookseven Shinkansen seats from
Tokyo to Nagoya and I got onlineand I could only get six.
There was a limit.
And I'm like, oh man, I've gotto get these seats.
(49:22):
And then I think I remember theweekend we were arriving, there
was some significant holiday,and so I rang this or just sent
this message to my mate.
The weekend we were arriving,there was some significant
holiday, and so I rang this orjust sent this message to my
mate saying, as you know, I'mdoing this thing and he's got a
company, so I thought he canprobably help out.
I said can you get someShinkansen tickets for me?
(49:44):
Like, can you do this onlinefrom you know, within Japan?
Yeah, and he said, said I'lltake a look.
And he said I can't, but don'tworry about it, I'll go get them
tomorrow morning.
And he got up like six o'clockand went and got them for me,
paid for them, like, and saiddon't worry about the money,
like, pay me when you, when youwhen you're here and he just
(50:05):
took that problem away and it's.
It's so helpful when you havethese Japanese friends who go
out of their way to help you andthen they're like, oh no, it
was nothing.
Yeah, so that's helpful.
And then, yeah, as you say youcan do, obviously the
preparation really helps and youhave all these things ready and
(50:27):
you have a schedule.
But, yeah, not everything goesto plan and you've got to be
comfortable with, at times,letting things go, stepping out
of the way and seeing whathappens, and I think grasping
for control often will result inthings going getting out of
(50:48):
control.
So I like that it's like thegentle way almost result in
things going getting out ofcontrol.
I like that.
It's like the gentle way,almost like just let it happen,
and it's probably usually avaluable insight or learning as
well.
So, yeah, it's fascinating whatcan happen when you bring
people together.
Yeah, it's pretty magical.
(51:09):
So what else is magical isnature.
We've touched on this, but Isuspect this is a strong source
of ikigai in your life and, as Itouched on, I think it's
certainly a universal source.
It's probably a pillar ofhealth.
We haven't really recognisedenough and we neglect it.
(51:30):
It obviously you don't.
So what do you love aboutnature?
Why do you love it so much?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
one of my kind of favorite experiences since we've
moved out here.
And you know, I grew up in apretty rural place, right, so
I'm used to being around naturewhen I was a kid, but I think
when you're kid it's just likeall like the same anyways, right
, it's.
You don't have the sameappreciation, especially after
living in a metropolis likeTokyo for a while, but the thing
(51:59):
that I've, one of the thingsI've enjoyed the most is the
subtlety in the seasons andyou're probably familiar with in
Japan, like the, the, there'sactually 24 seasons.
Right, there's a system of 24seasons.
I always forget what that'scalled in in japanese, but you
really see it here.
It's really cool, you know, justlike the subtlety of, like when
(52:22):
the leaves start to come out inthe spring, and then the actual
different shades of green theybecome, and then, like right in
front of our place, where we'reon the river, and it's like it's
a river valley, and for me it'slike, it's like lungs, right In
the summer it's just thick withgreen and vines and like a
jungle, and then in springeverything drops off and
(52:44):
everything opens up, you know,and it's just such this cool,
this cool contrast and the waythe mountains look and the
different times.
So that's that's been.
One of my favorite things islike there's so many subtleties
available if we can be in anenvironment where we can slow
down enough to see them andnotice them maybe we should also
just briefly touch on your boysgrowing up in a rural
(53:10):
environment with so much nature,but I guess it's kind of going
maybe against mainstream.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
You know most parents in japan would be thinking
better.
You know better educationopportunities closer to the big
cities and whatnot, how theyembrace this life it's been good
.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
So they they were like 10 and 7 when we came out
here, so in a lot of ways theywere kind of city boys when we
moved.
And one of the things thatsurprised me when we moved out
here is, like you boys justnever go outside and run around
by yourselves, right, it's likewhen I was going outside and
doing stuff with them.
So that was certainly adifference to me.
I lived in that environmentfrom a much younger age but
(53:51):
they've thrived.
You know, they enjoy theoutdoors, but I think the bigger
thing they've thrived in is thesmaller community and when I
asked them what it was like togo to school here, we moved here
and they're just like oh,everyone was so open and
friendly, right, Just welcomedme in and it was just like it's
the thing you want to hear whenyou make a big decision.
That changes their lives, youknow.
(54:12):
So they've really thrived inbeing out here and have a lot of
good friends and, like I said,there's a pretty good mix of
Japanese and non-Japanese here.
So they get to be in anenvironment where that's a
really normal thing.
They get to be in anenvironment where that's a
really normal thing.
They're one of the few, one ofthe very few multicultural kids
(54:36):
in the school out here, becausea lot of the kids are still
younger.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
But, yeah they've really thrived out here, Nice.
And you did mention that youknow your wife's part of the
business, but not part of theface of the business, and that
she's been supportive of thechange because she wasn't from
Minakami, was she?
Yeah?
So how was that?
Did it take any convincing orwas she pretty open to the idea?
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, I mean, it was probably one of the biggest
surprises in our relationship sofar is when I you know, I
remember very clearly it was aSunday I had gone out for a run
and came back we were stayinghere at a friend's place for the
weekend and came back andcalled her out onto the deck of
the picnic table and said, oh, Ihave an idea like we could live
(55:22):
here totally.
But yeah, we'd been in theconversation for a while about
like being somewhere other thanTokyo.
So the conversation itselfwasn't new.
And when she tells people whyshe was okay to it, okay to the
ideas, one, because there's areally big supermarket here,
(55:45):
ever practical.
And then, of course, she lovesthe, the hot springs.
She literally goes to onsenevery day here.
She has like a circuit that shegoes to.
She changes each day.
So that's been great and she'sbeen, she's been a real pillar
to me getting to do all thisstuff.
No, I mean a lot of change, alot of dramatic change has
(56:06):
happened and she's just stoodbeside me through all of it.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
That's great.
Yeah, I'm sorry I'm laughingbecause my friend who hosts the
retreat said, oh, nick, weshould take your group to a
supermarket.
I'm like what he said.
You know I love it.
And he's like, you know, japansupermarkets they have all these
interesting things.
And I thought, oh, okay, andyeah, they absolutely loved it,
(56:34):
shopping for an hour, buying allthese weird things.
And I thought, oh, yeah, that'sa cool idea.
So Japanese supermarkets are alot of fun, yeah, and important,
obviously, yeah, definitely.
That's great, though.
You've got support from thebetter half, so awesome.
So, yeah, been a pleasure,corey, to finally touch base,
(56:58):
and we'll have to meet in person.
I'd love to support what you do, so we'll put up links to your
websites and these experimentsyou've got planned for this year
, and I'd love to, yeah, meetyou in person and continue the
conversation.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Yeah, that'd be great .
Again, I appreciate theopportunity to get to chat with
you, Nick.
It's really interesting anddefinitely look forward to
showing you around this placeand getting to hang out in
person, swap some retreat tipsand stories.
That'll be fun.
Speaker 2 (57:31):
Yeah, I'd love that.
I'm sure I can learn a lot fromyou.
So, yeah, thanks so much, Corey, and we'll speak soon.
Awesome Thanks, Nick.
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