June 16, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick welcomes back Daiki Kato to explore their new book on rolefulness—a concept that empowers people to live more intentionally by embracing meaningful roles in everyday life.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We tend to focus on goals like earning money and
success in the business, in oursociety, but I think
role-focused life is veryimportant for our mental health,
keeping mental health.
Based on the idea, weintroduced specific rolefulness
into the book.
Into the book, specificrolefulness is the satisfaction
(00:29):
that arises when you inhabitroles in ways that are
distinctly your own, shaped byyour personality, values and
vision ikigai-tribecom.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
On this episode of the Ikigai podcast, Professor
Daiki Kato returns to celebrateand discuss the launch of
Rolefulness, a guide topurposeful living, a book we
co-authored.
Wonderful to have you back onthe podcast, Daiki.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Thank you for inviting me today and I'm very
happy to talk with you again.
Thank you, Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
My pleasure, mate, so it's always good to see you and
we've become really goodfriends actually over the past
two years.
So in October of 2022, wow Ihad you as a guest on episode 47
, the Impact of Rolefulness onIkigai, with Professor Daiki
(01:27):
Kato so if you haven't listenedto that episode, please do and
the concept of rolefulnessreally inspired me.
And then, about nine monthslater, so about two years ago, I
approached you with the idea ofwriting a book.
Together, we met in Brisbane todiscuss the idea of the book,
(01:47):
and here we are now launchingthe book.
So how do you feel, daiki?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, I was very happy when you sent me the
message.
I thought the sense of role wasquite specific in Japanese
culture, but I knew that manypeople in other countries were
interested in the concept ofrolefulness and it made me so
happy.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
That's good.
So, yeah, I was very excitedand I was really hopeful you
would say yes.
So we essentially created rolesfor us to write this book
co-authors.
So we lived a new type ofrolefulness as we wrote the book
together.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yes, the book project gives us new wonderful roles.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, maybe we will write another book together.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We should touch on the meaning of rolefulness again
.
So how do you definerolefulness, daiki?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
meaning of rolefulness again.
So how do you definerolefulness, daiki?
Yes, rolefulness is defined asthe ongoing sense of role
satisfaction experienced indaily life.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, ongoing sense of role satisfaction.
So it's like a feeling that youexperience in daily life and
you've written on rolefulnessseveral times doing research
papers.
So what was it like for you togo from writing research papers
to co-authoring a book?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
At first we started to write research papers on
rolefulness because I thoughtacademic evidence was important
for the new psychologicalconcept, lawfulness.
After writing papers, Ibelieved that this evidence
could be applied for our dailylives and writing a book in more
friendly words was importantfor many readers.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I agree.
So I think it's very hard tomaybe read but also write
academic papers.
There's a lot of citations, alot of, I guess, jargon.
So presenting this book in aneasy language was lots of fun,
(04:01):
but you've actually written abook on rolefulness in Japanese
that you co-authored with DrMikie Suzuki.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yes, Dr Suzuki and I wrote the rolefulness book.
In Japan, researchers, teachersand many other professionals
read the book and I'm happy tohear their positive impressions
for Japanese book yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Well, it's definitely a universal concept.
This idea of rolefulness issomething we all feel.
We all have roles, so we shouldperhaps start with a definition
.
How do we define role, daiki?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yes, let's talk about the definition of roles.
A role is a pattern of behaviorexpressed within a social
context that becomes meaningfulwhen it reflects one's authentic
self.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yes, so this is our definition in the book.
This is what we're sayingshould be a role in the book.
This is what we're sayingshould be a role.
That, of course, it's patternof behavior expressed in a
specific social context, butwhat's important is it's
meaningful and it reflects yourauthentic self.
(05:18):
It's essentially being yourselfin a context of role, being
Yourself in a Context of Role,and we essentially start the
book, or we delve into the book,with the idea of role distress,
and it can pop up in so manydifferent ways.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So shall we touch on this a bit Daiki role distress
yeah, it's something I think alot of people experience without
necessarily having a name forit.
We outline a few key aspectslike role strain, that feeling
of being pulled in too manydirections just trying to meet
(06:03):
the expectations of one role.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yes, so that's role strain.
Then we have role conflict,which is when the demands of
different roles we have clashwith each other.
For example, trying to be adedicated employee and a present
parent at the same time cansometimes be challenging and you
(06:26):
have this conflict.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, and let's not forget role confusion that his
area, where the lines betweendifferent roles we play just
aren't clear.
It can be quite unsettling.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Absolutely, and similar to role confusion is
role ambiguity, where you're ina role but you're just not sure
what's actually expected of you.
This happens often in theworkplace, maybe when someone's
starting a new job and it canlead to a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Definitely and I think many people can relate to
role overload, simply having toomuch or too many roles to
juggle at once- Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So yes, role distress was a term we came up with to
describe all these common ideasabout roles, to describe all
these common ideas about roles.
So role strain, role conflict,role confusion, role ambiguity
and, of course, role overload.
And, as you said, I think mostpeople have role overload even
in one role.
They can just be overburdenedwith that commitment and
(07:40):
spending too much time workingis usually the problem with role
overload.
And these were the reasons whywe felt compelled to write the
book.
We thought we want to increaserolefulness in society today.
So I guess rolefulness is ananswer to these problems.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, I think that's so true To some degree.
We all experienced that duringCOVID, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so we're talking about rolelessness.
I should have mentioned that.
So, yeah, we have all theseproblems.
And then one of the reasons wewrote the book was because we
saw this increase inrolelessness in society and,
interestingly, daiki, when wedid our research, rolelessness
(08:37):
existed in other papers, butrolefulness didn't, so you
really did coin the term and, asyou said, this is something we
saw during COVID thisrolelessness and I think we're
also seeing it stemming fromadvancements in, obviously,
(09:00):
technology, but also recently inAI and it's a whole new
dimension to consider.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, I think so it is, and Japan has its own form
of lawlessness, in a way, withhikikomori.
So the world of hikikomori is aquite important problem in
Japan.
Hikikomori those who withdrawfrom social interaction and
(09:33):
traditional roles.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, some people might know hikikomori some of
our listeners but if you don'tknow what it is, it's where
essentially young men.
But if you don't know what itis, it's where essentially young
men boys or young men, I guess,teenage boys or men decide they
(09:56):
don't want to participate insociety and they decide to stay
in their bedrooms, so theyusually live with their parents,
and this has been going onsince the 70s.
So now you have men, in their50s in some cases, who spent 20,
30 years as hikikomori, aspeople who essentially lock
themselves in their rooms.
(10:18):
Some of them don't even engagewith their family and they live
completely alone, probably justcommunicating with the outside
world online or playing games orsurfing the internet and big
problem.
But it's also it's not justrestricted to Japan anymore.
(10:39):
There's hikikomori cases inKorea, china, america, australia
, parts of Europe, so it'sbecoming a global problem.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, as you mentioned, so about 10 years ago
or 20 years ago.
So the most of hikikomoripeople were young men and, yeah,
as you said, so, now theproblem is really expanded, so
not only young men, so moreelder people or the young women,
(11:13):
and, yeah, the problem isreally complex and changing.
So, yeah, it is reflected, theculture or society and yeah, so,
as you said, so it's notproblem not only in japan and
it's a very internationalproblem and the lawfulness and
(11:33):
lawlessness and the problem is,I think so they are really
connected to each other and it'sa very big problem and we have
to think about how to supportthe people in the situation of
hikikomori.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, absolutely it's .
It's fascinating because thesemen I mean most of them are men
who should be working, and soit's.
It's several million men notworking in Japan, which is a
good chunk of the male workforcejust living at home, and I've
read papers where they'recalling it the 50-80 problem,
(12:12):
like it's a problem withinHikikomori, where these men are
now 50, they've spent 30 yearsliving at their home and their
parents are 80 and they'reelderly and these men have no
skills or no social skills.
They don't have any money tohelp look after their parents
and, yeah, the government wassaying this is like another
(12:35):
problem, so perhaps rolefulnesswould be a solution.
But, yeah, on the flip side tothese problems of social
withdrawal, there's also rolecaptivity, where you feel stuck
in a role you don't want, andobviously that can be, yeah,
(12:57):
just a really frustrating,unpleasant way to live your life
.
It it's usually work-related,but obviously can include
relationships.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I think role captivity is a really important
thing, which brings us to whatwe see as the answer is
rolefulness.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's right.
This is the answer, I think,daiki, and as we mentioned,
we've written a book on this andthat's available, actually, on
Amazon.
So if you're listening to thisand you're interested in our
book, you can go to Amazon.
So let's talk about the book.
We touched on this in our lastepisode, breaking rolefulness
(13:42):
down into social and internalaspects.
So let's recap that for ourlisteners.
Do you want to touch on that,daiki?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, of course, social rolefulness really refers
to that sense of satisfactionand belonging we get from our
relationships and social groupswe are part of.
It's about feeling valued andconnected.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Right.
And then internal rolefulness,in contrast, is more about the
personal identity, theconfidence and the inner
satisfaction that comes fromfeeling like you're fulfilling
your roles in a way that alignswith who you are.
So you've written papers onthis.
Basically, social rolefulnesscomes first through interactions
(14:29):
with others, and then youinternalize that, giving you
confidence, self-esteem andinner satisfaction.
And then one of the themes inour book, daiki, was this idea
of a role-focused life over agoal-focused life.
Do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
We tend to focus on goals like earning money and
success in the business, in oursociety, but I think
role-focused life is veryimportant for our mental health,
keeping mental health.
Based on the idea, weintroduced specific rolefulness
into the book.
Specific rolefulness is thesatisfaction that arises when
(15:15):
you inhabit roles in ways thatare distinctly your own, shaped
by your personality.
Distinctly your own, shaped byyour personality, values and
vision.
For the book, we created therole framework.
Can you introduce that?
And what about mutual rolecompatibility?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Sure Daiki.
So we should mention yeah, aswe wrote the book, these ideas
about role came up, and so yourtheory of rolefulness, which
includes the idea of fulfillingyour roles, all your roles,
basically through greetings,having conversations and
(15:56):
expressing gratitude, is what weended up calling general
rolefulness.
Yeah, and so you can have asense of rolefulness just going
down to the cafe.
You greet the staff, they greetyou, you have a friendly chat,
they ask about your maybe yourwork, your kids, you ask about
(16:16):
work, how they're going, andthen you have your coffee and
then you leave and you expressgratitude.
So that's an example of generalrolefulness and that's sort of
one of the foundations of yourtheory.
It's not tied to specific role,it's this general sense of
rolefulness.
And then, as we wrote the book,we realized, of course,
(16:37):
specific roles are important andthe role framework is a way for
you and the role framework is away for you to best fulfill
that role.
No-transcript.
And so our roles give usopportunities, obviously, to
(16:58):
express our values and meet ourown needs.
It's really also important toconsider how our approach to
these roles affects the peoplearound us.
So we want to ensure not onlythat they serve us, but they
align with the expectations ofothers, and this is kind of
where the idea of this mutualrole compatibility came from.
(17:21):
So this requires discussion andalmost some sort of negotiation
between you and the person youdeliver the role to.
So an example would be as afather, when my son was younger,
we were very playful, we usedto hug and I used to tickle him
(17:45):
and piggyback and all this veryplayful stuff.
Now he's 21.
So I'm not hugging him, we'renot doing piggybacking, even
though I try.
So that's not appropriate.
It probably makes him feeluncomfortable.
So now we engage differently.
We talk, we have this playfulbanter, we watch sport together,
(18:08):
we make jokes, and this is howI fulfill my role and it's also
how he fulfills his role as ason.
So we've got this common groundand so, yeah, we refer to this
common ground as mutual rolecompatibility.
It's very similar to this ideaof love languages.
People sometimes have differentways of expressing love and
(18:31):
they feel out of alignment andit's only once they understand
each other's love.
Languages do they connect?
So it's similar to that idea.
Languages do they connect, soit's similar to that idea.
We want to make sure what weoffer others is compatible with
them, and this dynamic alignmentbetween how we see our role and
how others experience.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
It is really important yeah, thank you, and I
agree, completely agree withyour idea and our role and the
sense of rolefulness is quiteconnected with other person and
(19:12):
it is based on theinterrelationships.
And so you talked about therelationship between your son
and you.
And so, yeah, your son grew upand the relationship, the style
of relationship between your sonand you are changing gradually,
(19:33):
and so in each stage there arevery important mutual
relationships.
You, yeah, and yeah, me too.
So I have two sons and they aregrowing up, and so our
relationship is changing.
But I think that the enjoyrelationship and finding roles
(19:58):
in each stage is reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So yeah, it's very simple.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So, yeah, you taught that the three things are very
important Conversation andshowing gratitude and greetings.
It's a very simple way forfamily or friends or colleagues
in every relationship.
So the very simpleinterpersonal relationships and
(20:27):
enjoy the very small and simplerole is a very important way to
increase rolefulness.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, yes, I think it's interesting because we have
this idea of generalrolefulness which you coined and
you have the theory rolefulness, greetings, conversation and
then expressing gratitude.
But then we yeah, we have thisspecific rolefulness which we
(20:55):
can still apply a generalrolefulness to, so we can greet
our colleagues at work, have aconversation and thank them.
We can do that with family, butwith the specific roles where
the relationships are deeper, Ithink we do need this social
intelligence to have rolecompatibility, mutual role
(21:19):
compatibility, and I think thisis where you have all these
problems.
In relationships, People haveexpectations.
A good example are marriedcouples who end up divorcing
because they don't probablydiscuss their roles and they
misunderstand each other or theymisinterpret how love is
(21:40):
expressed and they don't sitdown and say hang on, this is my
idea of being a husband, butwhat do you want from me as a
husband?
And maybe what my wife wantsfrom me as a husband is
different to my idea of being ahusband, and then she can offer
the same.
She can say, oh, what do youwant from me as a wife?
And then she can offer the same.
She can say, oh, what do youwant from me as a wife?
(22:02):
You know, in my role as a wifeand we could have that
discussion and get clarity.
But of course, people don'ttalk like this, they just
complain or they point outproblems.
So this type of socialintelligence and discussion is
something we write about in thebook, and it's usually something
(22:22):
intuitive, like from experienceyou understand each other.
But because there are so manyrelationship problems,
communication is key, and sounderstanding each other's
expectations and understandingeach individual's idea of role
really requires communication,and so we write about that in
(22:44):
the book.
And then there's also anothertype of rolefulness we explored
in the book, which is uniquerolefulness.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, as you said.
So I think that both generallawfulness and unique lawfulness
is very important.
For example, the friend or thecouples or the colleagues.
We have our original sense oflaws and so it is different.
(23:18):
Perhaps my sense of law and,nick, your sense of role is a
little different, but we aregood friends and so, of course,
we have some gaps about how torecognize our roles, but we
communicate with each other andspend a very good time together
(23:44):
each other and spending a verygood time together, and so I
respect your sense and you alsorespect my sense about roles,
and so that's kind ofestablishing good relationships
and respect the sense of role ofothers is very important.
Trust or respect others is avery important thing, and so if
we have any role gaps yeah, wehad good relationships and
(24:09):
respectful relationships so wecan maintain the gaps and do
together, and so I think it's noproblem.
Yeah, and based on thatviewpoint, the think about, or
the respect about, each uniquerolefulness or the general
(24:30):
rolefulness is very important.
So let's expand our discussion,uh, to the topic of unique
rolefulness.
So can you speak a little moreabout the concept of unique
rolefulness, nick?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Sure, I mean, before I do, one thing I want to say,
daiki is, writing this book withyou was actually very easy and
you come from an academicbackground and this was your
concept.
You coined it, it rolefulnessand you were very generous and
(25:05):
kind to you know, trust me,share, share the concept with me
, and it was my idea to writethe book.
So I approached you.
So maybe a lot of people wouldbe, I don't know, defensive or
probably they would have said no, but you were really open and
then through the process,through collaboration, all these
(25:28):
other years about rolefulnesscame up and so that I think that
added to the book.
So in a way, writing this booktogether provided you and me
with a unique role.
You're coming from obviously adifferent culture, academic
background.
You'd done all this researchand I came with obviously
(25:51):
someone not from really anacademic background, but I could
help you explain your conceptto, obviously to a Western
audience and make it more, Iguess, readable, and then
through that process, otherideas popped up.
So a unique role can besomething like that where it's
(26:12):
maybe project-based and you havethis unique role and in our
case we were supporting eachother.
Or often we want a unique rolein life.
And your unique role in life isto discover how you want to use
your life and pursue it withintention, and this is guided by
(26:36):
your values.
It's attuned to your intuition.
Guided by your values, it'sattuned to your intuition and,
yeah, it really involvescommitment to doing the work
once that role becomes clear.
And so this is something a lotof people don't find, because a
lot of people don't knowthemselves.
(26:56):
We get trapped on the hamsterwheel.
People don't know themselves.
We get trapped on the hamsterwheel.
We go to work, we come home.
But some of us do want thisunique role and it requires
introspection.
I think you need some lifeexperience and then you
eventually work out ah, this ismy role, this is my personal
mission, it feels right, it'saligned to my values and, yeah,
(27:22):
I'm willing to commit to thework.
I will spend a lot of time onthis role.
And even if the personalmission seems like a goal, you
still need the role to help youachieve the goal.
So, yeah, that's something weexplored in the book too, this
(27:43):
idea of unique rolefulness.
We offer examples and we offera way for you to uncover your
unique role.
So it's interesting we wentfrom rolefulness, which we then
kind of identified as generalrolefulness.
We looked at specificrolefulness.
(28:03):
We all have multiple roles andthey're specific to us.
We looked at things like mutualrole compatibility.
We have your rolefulness scale,we have the role framework.
So all these helpful tools, soall these helpful tools.
And it was quite a challengeknowing when to stop writing,
(28:24):
because we want the book to beeasy to read and helpful, and I
think we achieved that goal.
So thank you, daiku, fortrusting me.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you very much, mo.
Yeah, I'm really happy that thefirst time you contacted me and
I joined your Ikigai podcast,and so, yeah, after that, about
two years ago, we saw in personin Brisbane, and so at that time
(28:55):
, so my family and I visitedBrisbane for work, and so we
stayed for a week in Brisbane,and so you are living so far,
but you come to Brisbane for me,and so my family and I are very
(29:15):
happy that we could see you,and so at the time we talked
about this book project and so,yeah, about two years, but
finally, so we did it and nowI'm very happy, and so, through
the journey to writing book withyou, I could find my new roles,
(29:38):
many new roles, yeah, so nowI'm working at the university
and having some classes anddoing some research, and it's my
, that's my role, and I thoughtI'm really satisfied with them
and I thought I was very happy.
(30:00):
But after I started the newproject with you, so recording
some podcast series forRollerFriends podcast or making
a homepage to tell our ideas topeople all over the world and
writing new books, and so, yeah,it's a quite new experience for
(30:20):
me and it's very exciting forme.
So it's my first challenge andso through the activities I
found my new roles and newaspects of me, so my new demands
or the new satisfactions areuncovered, and so it's a very
(30:45):
happy experience for me.
And, yeah, it's quite new andunique for me, and so I really
believe that that kind of uniquenew roles make me more happy
and more satisfied with my life.
And so, yeah, thank you, nick.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
It's my pleasure, it was a real joy.
I remember when we met and Iwas so excited to show you the
role framework.
Yes, yes, yes.
I remember the cafe and then allthese ideas and, yeah, it was
challenging.
You know, we had to write thebook and it's not easy, you know
(31:28):
, running a book.
So that's another reallypositive aspect of a role if
it's challenging and it'smeaningful.
You know, this is probably howI would relate it to Ikigai.
You know, from the, from thisrole, probably the most
important thing is this newfriendship we now share.
So we're good friends.
We had this challenging idea ofyou know, exciting but also
(31:51):
challenging of writing the book,supporting each other, offering
different, you know, offeringour strengths in different ways,
and it's a reality now.
So it made me realize, yeah,you can create a role and it
always involves some form ofcollaboration.
(32:12):
Create a role to help others,support others, or, in our case,
I guess, we create a roles toproduce something, to produce
this book.
And, yeah, for me to dyke, itwas.
It's been a really wonderfulexperience.
It's given me a lot ofhappiness and joy and I'm very
look, I'm, yeah, looking forwardto seeing you next month when
(32:33):
we have our little book launchat your university.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, yeah, it's my pleasure and, yeah, I'm very
happy to hear that.
So, yeah, and I'm lookingforward to seeing you in Japan
soon.
And so through this bookproject we found many new
concepts.
(32:58):
So at first, so, uh, I did someresearch about lawfulness and
originally so, uh, I imagine,about social lawfulness and
internal lawfulness.
Uh, nick and I were writingbook and we discussed many times
and we found many other ideas.
(33:18):
So can I introduce the audienceto one of our new ideas?
Sure, sure, nick found a veryinteresting idea and I'm very
interested about it, and so it'sa concept of knowfulness.
(33:38):
So that's a quite new idea.
So I hope perhaps many audienceare very interested in it.
What is knowfulness?
So, nick, can you introducethis idea of knowfulness?
Sure, daiki.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So, yes, this I mean it just came to me as I was
writing the book, but it isinspired by knowfulness, so I
should thank you, daiki.
I would not think of knowfulness, had I not written this book
with you and I thought, yeah,knowfulness, so saying no, and
(34:18):
it's this idea of settingboundaries by saying no to
others and, rather than feelguilty, you feel liberated and
satisfied, which is reallyimportant.
Yeah, you feel liberated andsatisfied because you are living
true to yourself and it can bevery hard to say no to others,
with expectations and societalpressure.
But we should all feel thefreedom to say no when what is
(34:41):
being asked of us doesn't alignto our values or when, for
whatever reason, we just don'twant to do something.
It doesn't feel right.
So it's actually reallyliberating when others are
intentionally or unintentionallytrying to take advantage of you
.
So it's almost like asuperpower If you can say no and
(35:04):
you don't feel guilty, youthink no, this is right, I'm
just going to say no.
And it just doesn't mean you sayno to something.
It can also mean you make thedecision not to do something,
like responding to a text or anemail or answering the phone.
If it's not right, if you don'twant to talk to that person, if
(35:26):
you don't want to reply to theemail, you just say to yourself
no, I'm not going to do that.
So, in short, knowfulness isthe feeling of liberation and
satisfaction you experience whenyou take control and say no to
the requests, expectations ordemands of others or society in
(35:47):
general.
Now, of course, the way youcommunicate this is important,
and it depends on context.
You can say no with compassion.
Sometimes you might have to sayit with firmness, but always be
respectful and you don't everhave to feel that you have to
explain yourself.
(36:08):
You're just expressing yourselfand yeah.
You can just say things like no, thank you, I'm not interested,
or no, what you're asking, itdoesn't suit me or it's not
aligned to my values, and I knowthis is a big problem in Japan.
So maybe this would also be agood book for Japanese, like if
we wrote a book on knowfulness,which we might do, because
(36:33):
Japanese really struggle withthis idea of no.
They can't even say no.
They have other expressions,like you know, ちょっと難しい, like oh,
that's a little difficult.
So it is very hard to say no ingeneral, but I think it's
harder for Japanese.
Would I be right about that?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yes.
So yeah, I completely agreewith your idea.
So in Japanese culture,including me, so many people
feel that, so guilty when we sayno to others.
Yeah, so in many situations solike in the relationship with
friends, or in the work, therelationship with colleagues, or
(37:15):
in the work, the relationshipwith colleagues so, yeah, many
Japanese people feel guilty whenwe have to say no to them.
But I think that that kind offeeling is really connected with
lawfulness.
So if we don't have lawfulness,we don't have lawfulness, we
(37:35):
don't have confidence to myself,and so if we don't have
confidence, it's difficult tosay yes or no to others so
directly.
So, but if we have lawfulnessand confidence, we can easily
(37:58):
tell my own opinion to others orsay no to others.
So, yeah, I think lawfulnessand knowfulness is quite
connected to each other and bothaspects are very important,
especially in Japanese cultures.
That kind of sense is reallyimportant and yeah so I'm very
(38:23):
interested in the concept ofknowfulness, and so it's a very
new idea, but it's veryinteresting for the concept of
the academic researches and it'salso a very friendly and easy
world to understand.
And so, yeah, let's success ournew project.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, so happy to share that with you.
Definitely, and I mean it camefrom this idea of boundaries we
set in our roles.
We have a role, we have morethan one role, we have multiple
roles and maybe, going back tothose problems, you know, role
conflict, role overload allthose things happen when we
(39:08):
don't have boundaries and oftenthe boundary is just saying no.
And so, yeah, I think nofullness, framing no as no
fullness makes it lighter, makesit easier, especially if you
think, oh, this is me beinghonest or being true, this is
how I best serve people.
(39:29):
If I say yes to this, I servepeople.
If I say no to this, I'mserving people because I'm not
doing something that I don'twant to do.
And if you don't want to dosomething and you still say yes,
you're not going to do yourbest work.
You're going to have thisnegativity.
Negative feelings could lead toresentment.
And it made me realize thatIkigai is about working out what
(39:54):
you want to say yes to and whatyou want to say no to, because
you want to say yes to thingsthat are meaningful, that give
you a sense of purpose, thatgive you life satisfaction, that
connect you to others in ameaningful way, and then you
want to say no to things thatare not in line with your values
(40:16):
, that you're not interested in,or maybe you just don't have
the strengths, they're notaligned to your strengths.
They can still be positivethings, but you've got to know
this suits me, this doesn't suitme.
I can use my strengths in these, or I can't.
Or, yeah, this is not alignedto me, I'm not the right person.
(40:37):
So, yeah, who knows, maybe nofullness will become a
psychological concept.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
But today we're talking about rolefulness, so we
shouldn't get off track, Nike.
So rolefulness it's our newbook.
We've worked two years on thisand two years sounds like a lot
of time, but we were.
We were doing this role inbetween our other roles and,
yeah, we're very excited.
So, if you're looking forrolefulness in your life and it
(41:08):
really is a guide to purposefulliving, we've written it for you
and it's now available onamazon.
Yeah, so you can purchase thebook on amazon and we'll be
probably updating the book aswell as we go, and we'll
probably do a few more podcastson rolefulness.
(41:29):
Maybe no fullness.
So any final Daiki as we finishup this episode.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, today.
So I'm very happy to talk withyou and we can look back our
book project.
And so when was the last time Ijoined your Ikigai podcast?
So two years ago or more.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It was October 2022.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So nearly three years ago, yeah, yeah.
So at that time, yeah, it wasso excited.
And so Nick and I talk aboutIkigai and lawfulness and, yeah,
the conversation was reallyinteresting for me.
And yeah, after that, so thesetwo years, so we discussed each
(42:24):
other many times and keeping ourgood friendship and we could
find very new ideas aboutlawfulness, very new ideas about
lawfulness.
And so today, yeah, we couldlook back to our activities and
our journey and so, yeah, it wasa very happy time for me and
(42:47):
I'm very happy that our journeyis not end yet and we continue
to expand our idea and tellingour ideas to more and more
people all over the world, andlet's continue our project
(43:08):
NoFluNess.
Maybe I will be able to findmore new roles with you and,
yeah, it's a very happy time forme today.
Thank you very much, nick.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
My pleasure, daiki.
No good times ahead.
I think next year, when I'mliving in Japan, we'll have a
lot more rolefulness and it'sbeen a real source of ikigai
writing this book with you and,yeah, I really appreciate it,
your trust in me, and now wehave this wonderful friendship
and, yeah, we're collaboratorsand we've written this book
(43:45):
together and we're celebratingit on this episode, but I really
appreciate our friendship too,and I'm very happy as well.
So, thank you, Daiki.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, thank you very much yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Okay, so there you go , guys Rolefulness on Amazon.
If you're wanting to find morepurpose in your life, or even
find your unique role, read ourbook.
Okay, bye, for now.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah, bye, thank you.
We tend to focus on goals like earning money and
success in the business, in oursociety, but I think
role-focused life is veryimportant for our mental health,
keeping mental health.
Based on the idea, weintroduced specific rolefulness
into the book.
Into the book, specificrolefulness is the satisfaction
(00:29):
that arises when you inhabitroles in ways that are
distinctly your own, shaped byyour personality, values and
vision ikigai-tribecom.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
On this episode of the Ikigai podcast, Professor
Daiki Kato returns to celebrateand discuss the launch of
Rolefulness, a guide topurposeful living, a book we
co-authored.
Wonderful to have you back onthe podcast, Daiki.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Thank you for inviting me today and I'm very
happy to talk with you again.
Thank you, Nick.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
My pleasure, mate, so it's always good to see you and
we've become really goodfriends actually over the past
two years.
So in October of 2022, wow Ihad you as a guest on episode 47
, the Impact of Rolefulness onIkigai, with Professor Daiki
(01:27):
Kato so if you haven't listenedto that episode, please do and
the concept of rolefulnessreally inspired me.
And then, about nine monthslater, so about two years ago, I
approached you with the idea ofwriting a book.
Together, we met in Brisbane todiscuss the idea of the book,
(01:47):
and here we are now launchingthe book.
So how do you feel, daiki?
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, I was very happy when you sent me the
message.
I thought the sense of role wasquite specific in Japanese
culture, but I knew that manypeople in other countries were
interested in the concept ofrolefulness and it made me so
happy.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
That's good.
So, yeah, I was very excitedand I was really hopeful you
would say yes.
So we essentially created rolesfor us to write this book
co-authors.
So we lived a new type ofrolefulness as we wrote the book
together.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yes, the book project gives us new wonderful roles.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, maybe we will write another book together.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We should touch on the meaning of rolefulness again
.
So how do you definerolefulness, daiki?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
meaning of rolefulness again.
So how do you definerolefulness, daiki?
Yes, rolefulness is defined asthe ongoing sense of role
satisfaction experienced indaily life.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, ongoing sense of role satisfaction.
So it's like a feeling that youexperience in daily life and
you've written on rolefulnessseveral times doing research
papers.
So what was it like for you togo from writing research papers
to co-authoring a book?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
At first we started to write research papers on
rolefulness because I thoughtacademic evidence was important
for the new psychologicalconcept, lawfulness.
After writing papers, Ibelieved that this evidence
could be applied for our dailylives and writing a book in more
friendly words was importantfor many readers.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I agree.
So I think it's very hard tomaybe read but also write
academic papers.
There's a lot of citations, alot of, I guess, jargon.
So presenting this book in aneasy language was lots of fun,
(04:01):
but you've actually written abook on rolefulness in Japanese
that you co-authored with DrMikie Suzuki.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yes, Dr Suzuki and I wrote the rolefulness book.
In Japan, researchers, teachersand many other professionals
read the book and I'm happy tohear their positive impressions
for Japanese book yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Well, it's definitely a universal concept.
This idea of rolefulness issomething we all feel.
We all have roles, so we shouldperhaps start with a definition
.
How do we define role, daiki?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yes, let's talk about the definition of roles.
A role is a pattern of behaviorexpressed within a social
context that becomes meaningfulwhen it reflects one's authentic
self.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yes, so this is our definition in the book.
This is what we're sayingshould be a role in the book.
This is what we're sayingshould be a role.
That, of course, it's patternof behavior expressed in a
specific social context, butwhat's important is it's
meaningful and it reflects yourauthentic self.
(05:18):
It's essentially being yourselfin a context of role, being
Yourself in a Context of Role,and we essentially start the
book, or we delve into the book,with the idea of role distress,
and it can pop up in so manydifferent ways.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
So shall we touch on this a bit Daiki role distress
yeah, it's something I think alot of people experience without
necessarily having a name forit.
We outline a few key aspectslike role strain, that feeling
of being pulled in too manydirections just trying to meet
(06:03):
the expectations of one role.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yes, so that's role strain.
Then we have role conflict,which is when the demands of
different roles we have clashwith each other.
For example, trying to be adedicated employee and a present
parent at the same time cansometimes be challenging and you
(06:26):
have this conflict.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, and let's not forget role confusion that his
area, where the lines betweendifferent roles we play just
aren't clear.
It can be quite unsettling.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Absolutely, and similar to role confusion is
role ambiguity, where you're ina role but you're just not sure
what's actually expected of you.
This happens often in theworkplace, maybe when someone's
starting a new job and it canlead to a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Definitely and I think many people can relate to
role overload, simply having toomuch or too many roles to
juggle at once- Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So yes, role distress was a term we came up with to
describe all these common ideasabout roles, to describe all
these common ideas about roles.
So role strain, role conflict,role confusion, role ambiguity
and, of course, role overload.
And, as you said, I think mostpeople have role overload even
in one role.
They can just be overburdenedwith that commitment and
(07:40):
spending too much time workingis usually the problem with role
overload.
And these were the reasons whywe felt compelled to write the
book.
We thought we want to increaserolefulness in society today.
So I guess rolefulness is ananswer to these problems.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, I think that's so true To some degree.
We all experienced that duringCOVID, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, so we're talking about rolelessness.
I should have mentioned that.
So, yeah, we have all theseproblems.
And then one of the reasons wewrote the book was because we
saw this increase inrolelessness in society and,
interestingly, daiki, when wedid our research, rolelessness
(08:37):
existed in other papers, butrolefulness didn't, so you
really did coin the term and, asyou said, this is something we
saw during COVID thisrolelessness and I think we're
also seeing it stemming fromadvancements in, obviously,
(09:00):
technology, but also recently inAI and it's a whole new
dimension to consider.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, I think so it is, and Japan has its own form
of lawlessness, in a way, withhikikomori.
So the world of hikikomori is aquite important problem in
Japan.
Hikikomori those who withdrawfrom social interaction and
(09:33):
traditional roles.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, some people might know hikikomori some of
our listeners but if you don'tknow what it is, it's where
essentially young men.
But if you don't know what itis, it's where essentially young
men boys or young men, I guess,teenage boys or men decide they
(09:56):
don't want to participate insociety and they decide to stay
in their bedrooms, so theyusually live with their parents,
and this has been going onsince the 70s.
So now you have men, in their50s in some cases, who spent 20,
30 years as hikikomori, aspeople who essentially lock
themselves in their rooms.
(10:18):
Some of them don't even engagewith their family and they live
completely alone, probably justcommunicating with the outside
world online or playing games orsurfing the internet and big
problem.
But it's also it's not justrestricted to Japan anymore.
(10:39):
There's hikikomori cases inKorea, china, america, australia
, parts of Europe, so it'sbecoming a global problem.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, as you mentioned, so about 10 years ago
or 20 years ago.
So the most of hikikomoripeople were young men and, yeah,
as you said, so, now theproblem is really expanded, so
not only young men, so moreelder people or the young women,
(11:13):
and, yeah, the problem isreally complex and changing.
So, yeah, it is reflected, theculture or society and yeah, so,
as you said, so it's notproblem not only in japan and
it's a very internationalproblem and the lawfulness and
(11:33):
lawlessness and the problem is,I think so they are really
connected to each other and it'sa very big problem and we have
to think about how to supportthe people in the situation of
hikikomori.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah, absolutely it's .
It's fascinating because thesemen I mean most of them are men
who should be working, and soit's.
It's several million men notworking in Japan, which is a
good chunk of the male workforcejust living at home, and I've
read papers where they'recalling it the 50-80 problem,
(12:12):
like it's a problem withinHikikomori, where these men are
now 50, they've spent 30 yearsliving at their home and their
parents are 80 and they'reelderly and these men have no
skills or no social skills.
They don't have any money tohelp look after their parents
and, yeah, the government wassaying this is like another
(12:35):
problem, so perhaps rolefulnesswould be a solution.
But, yeah, on the flip side tothese problems of social
withdrawal, there's also rolecaptivity, where you feel stuck
in a role you don't want, andobviously that can be, yeah,
(12:57):
just a really frustrating,unpleasant way to live your life
.
It it's usually work-related,but obviously can include
relationships.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I think role captivity is a really important
thing, which brings us to whatwe see as the answer is
rolefulness.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's right.
This is the answer, I think,daiki, and as we mentioned,
we've written a book on this andthat's available, actually, on
Amazon.
So if you're listening to thisand you're interested in our
book, you can go to Amazon.
So let's talk about the book.
We touched on this in our lastepisode, breaking rolefulness
(13:42):
down into social and internalaspects.
So let's recap that for ourlisteners.
Do you want to touch on that,daiki?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, of course, social rolefulness really refers
to that sense of satisfactionand belonging we get from our
relationships and social groupswe are part of.
It's about feeling valued andconnected.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Right.
And then internal rolefulness,in contrast, is more about the
personal identity, theconfidence and the inner
satisfaction that comes fromfeeling like you're fulfilling
your roles in a way that alignswith who you are.
So you've written papers onthis.
Basically, social rolefulnesscomes first through interactions
(14:29):
with others, and then youinternalize that, giving you
confidence, self-esteem andinner satisfaction.
And then one of the themes inour book, daiki, was this idea
of a role-focused life over agoal-focused life.
Do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
We tend to focus on goals like earning money and
success in the business, in oursociety, but I think
role-focused life is veryimportant for our mental health,
keeping mental health.
Based on the idea, weintroduced specific rolefulness
into the book.
Specific rolefulness is thesatisfaction that arises when
(15:15):
you inhabit roles in ways thatare distinctly your own, shaped
by your personality.
Distinctly your own, shaped byyour personality, values and
vision.
For the book, we created therole framework.
Can you introduce that?
And what about mutual rolecompatibility?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Sure Daiki.
So we should mention yeah, aswe wrote the book, these ideas
about role came up, and so yourtheory of rolefulness, which
includes the idea of fulfillingyour roles, all your roles,
basically through greetings,having conversations and
(15:56):
expressing gratitude, is what weended up calling general
rolefulness.
Yeah, and so you can have asense of rolefulness just going
down to the cafe.
You greet the staff, they greetyou, you have a friendly chat,
they ask about your maybe yourwork, your kids, you ask about
(16:16):
work, how they're going, andthen you have your coffee and
then you leave and you expressgratitude.
So that's an example of generalrolefulness and that's sort of
one of the foundations of yourtheory.
It's not tied to specific role,it's this general sense of
rolefulness.
And then, as we wrote the book,we realized, of course,
(16:37):
specific roles are important andthe role framework is a way for
you and the role framework is away for you to best fulfill
that role.
No-transcript.
And so our roles give usopportunities, obviously, to
(16:58):
express our values and meet ourown needs.
It's really also important toconsider how our approach to
these roles affects the peoplearound us.
So we want to ensure not onlythat they serve us, but they
align with the expectations ofothers, and this is kind of
where the idea of this mutualrole compatibility came from.
(17:21):
So this requires discussion andalmost some sort of negotiation
between you and the person youdeliver the role to.
So an example would be as afather, when my son was younger,
we were very playful, we usedto hug and I used to tickle him
(17:45):
and piggyback and all this veryplayful stuff.
Now he's 21.
So I'm not hugging him, we'renot doing piggybacking, even
though I try.
So that's not appropriate.
It probably makes him feeluncomfortable.
So now we engage differently.
We talk, we have this playfulbanter, we watch sport together,
(18:08):
we make jokes, and this is howI fulfill my role and it's also
how he fulfills his role as ason.
So we've got this common groundand so, yeah, we refer to this
common ground as mutual rolecompatibility.
It's very similar to this ideaof love languages.
People sometimes have differentways of expressing love and
(18:31):
they feel out of alignment andit's only once they understand
each other's love.
Languages do they connect?
So it's similar to that idea.
Languages do they connect, soit's similar to that idea.
We want to make sure what weoffer others is compatible with
them, and this dynamic alignmentbetween how we see our role and
how others experience.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
It is really important yeah, thank you, and I
agree, completely agree withyour idea and our role and the
sense of rolefulness is quiteconnected with other person and
(19:12):
it is based on theinterrelationships.
And so you talked about therelationship between your son
and you.
And so, yeah, your son grew upand the relationship, the style
of relationship between your sonand you are changing gradually,
(19:33):
and so in each stage there arevery important mutual
relationships.
You, yeah, and yeah, me too.
So I have two sons and they aregrowing up, and so our
relationship is changing.
But I think that the enjoyrelationship and finding roles
(19:58):
in each stage is reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So yeah, it's very simple.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So, yeah, you taught that the three things are very
important Conversation andshowing gratitude and greetings.
It's a very simple way forfamily or friends or colleagues
in every relationship.
So the very simpleinterpersonal relationships and
(20:27):
enjoy the very small and simplerole is a very important way to
increase rolefulness.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, yes, I think it's interesting because we have
this idea of generalrolefulness which you coined and
you have the theory rolefulness, greetings, conversation and
then expressing gratitude.
But then we yeah, we have thisspecific rolefulness which we
(20:55):
can still apply a generalrolefulness to, so we can greet
our colleagues at work, have aconversation and thank them.
We can do that with family, butwith the specific roles where
the relationships are deeper, Ithink we do need this social
intelligence to have rolecompatibility, mutual role
(21:19):
compatibility, and I think thisis where you have all these
problems.
In relationships, People haveexpectations.
A good example are marriedcouples who end up divorcing
because they don't probablydiscuss their roles and they
misunderstand each other or theymisinterpret how love is
(21:40):
expressed and they don't sitdown and say hang on, this is my
idea of being a husband, butwhat do you want from me as a
husband?
And maybe what my wife wantsfrom me as a husband is
different to my idea of being ahusband, and then she can offer
the same.
She can say, oh, what do youwant from me as a wife?
And then she can offer the same.
She can say, oh, what do youwant from me as a wife?
(22:02):
You know, in my role as a wifeand we could have that
discussion and get clarity.
But of course, people don'ttalk like this, they just
complain or they point outproblems.
So this type of socialintelligence and discussion is
something we write about in thebook, and it's usually something
(22:22):
intuitive, like from experienceyou understand each other.
But because there are so manyrelationship problems,
communication is key, and sounderstanding each other's
expectations and understandingeach individual's idea of role
really requires communication,and so we write about that in
(22:44):
the book.
And then there's also anothertype of rolefulness we explored
in the book, which is uniquerolefulness.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, as you said.
So I think that both generallawfulness and unique lawfulness
is very important.
For example, the friend or thecouples or the colleagues.
We have our original sense oflaws and so it is different.
(23:18):
Perhaps my sense of law and,nick, your sense of role is a
little different, but we aregood friends and so, of course,
we have some gaps about how torecognize our roles, but we
communicate with each other andspend a very good time together
(23:44):
each other and spending a verygood time together, and so I
respect your sense and you alsorespect my sense about roles,
and so that's kind ofestablishing good relationships
and respect the sense of role ofothers is very important.
Trust or respect others is avery important thing, and so if
we have any role gaps yeah, wehad good relationships and
(24:09):
respectful relationships so wecan maintain the gaps and do
together, and so I think it's noproblem.
Yeah, and based on thatviewpoint, the think about, or
the respect about, each uniquerolefulness or the general
(24:30):
rolefulness is very important.
So let's expand our discussion,uh, to the topic of unique
rolefulness.
So can you speak a little moreabout the concept of unique
rolefulness, nick?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Sure, I mean, before I do, one thing I want to say,
daiki is, writing this book withyou was actually very easy and
you come from an academicbackground and this was your
concept.
You coined it, it rolefulnessand you were very generous and
(25:05):
kind to you know, trust me,share, share the concept with me
, and it was my idea to writethe book.
So I approached you.
So maybe a lot of people wouldbe, I don't know, defensive or
probably they would have said no, but you were really open and
then through the process,through collaboration, all these
(25:28):
other years about rolefulnesscame up and so that I think that
added to the book.
So in a way, writing this booktogether provided you and me
with a unique role.
You're coming from obviously adifferent culture, academic
background.
You'd done all this researchand I came with obviously
(25:51):
someone not from really anacademic background, but I could
help you explain your conceptto, obviously to a Western
audience and make it more, Iguess, readable, and then
through that process, otherideas popped up.
So a unique role can besomething like that where it's
(26:12):
maybe project-based and you havethis unique role and in our
case we were supporting eachother.
Or often we want a unique rolein life.
And your unique role in life isto discover how you want to use
your life and pursue it withintention, and this is guided by
(26:36):
your values.
It's attuned to your intuition.
Guided by your values, it'sattuned to your intuition and,
yeah, it really involvescommitment to doing the work
once that role becomes clear.
And so this is something a lotof people don't find, because a
lot of people don't knowthemselves.
(26:56):
We get trapped on the hamsterwheel.
People don't know themselves.
We get trapped on the hamsterwheel.
We go to work, we come home.
But some of us do want thisunique role and it requires
introspection.
I think you need some lifeexperience and then you
eventually work out ah, this ismy role, this is my personal
mission, it feels right, it'saligned to my values and, yeah,
(27:22):
I'm willing to commit to thework.
I will spend a lot of time onthis role.
And even if the personalmission seems like a goal, you
still need the role to help youachieve the goal.
So, yeah, that's something weexplored in the book too, this
(27:43):
idea of unique rolefulness.
We offer examples and we offera way for you to uncover your
unique role.
So it's interesting we wentfrom rolefulness, which we then
kind of identified as generalrolefulness.
We looked at specificrolefulness.
(28:03):
We all have multiple roles andthey're specific to us.
We looked at things like mutualrole compatibility.
We have your rolefulness scale,we have the role framework.
So all these helpful tools, soall these helpful tools.
And it was quite a challengeknowing when to stop writing,
(28:24):
because we want the book to beeasy to read and helpful, and I
think we achieved that goal.
So thank you, daiku, fortrusting me.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you very much, mo.
Yeah, I'm really happy that thefirst time you contacted me and
I joined your Ikigai podcast,and so, yeah, after that, about
two years ago, we saw in personin Brisbane, and so at that time
(28:55):
, so my family and I visitedBrisbane for work, and so we
stayed for a week in Brisbane,and so you are living so far,
but you come to Brisbane for me,and so my family and I are very
(29:15):
happy that we could see you,and so at the time we talked
about this book project and so,yeah, about two years, but
finally, so we did it and nowI'm very happy, and so, through
the journey to writing book withyou, I could find my new roles,
(29:38):
many new roles, yeah, so nowI'm working at the university
and having some classes anddoing some research, and it's my
, that's my role, and I thoughtI'm really satisfied with them
and I thought I was very happy.
(30:00):
But after I started the newproject with you, so recording
some podcast series forRollerFriends podcast or making
a homepage to tell our ideas topeople all over the world and
writing new books, and so, yeah,it's a quite new experience for
(30:20):
me and it's very exciting forme.
So it's my first challenge andso through the activities I
found my new roles and newaspects of me, so my new demands
or the new satisfactions areuncovered, and so it's a very
(30:45):
happy experience for me.
And, yeah, it's quite new andunique for me, and so I really
believe that that kind of uniquenew roles make me more happy
and more satisfied with my life.
And so, yeah, thank you, nick.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
It's my pleasure, it was a real joy.
I remember when we met and Iwas so excited to show you the
role framework.
Yes, yes, yes.
I remember the cafe and then allthese ideas and, yeah, it was
challenging.
You know, we had to write thebook and it's not easy, you know
(31:28):
, running a book.
So that's another reallypositive aspect of a role if
it's challenging and it'smeaningful.
You know, this is probably howI would relate it to Ikigai.
You know, from the, from thisrole, probably the most
important thing is this newfriendship we now share.
So we're good friends.
We had this challenging idea ofyou know, exciting but also
(31:51):
challenging of writing the book,supporting each other, offering
different, you know, offeringour strengths in different ways,
and it's a reality now.
So it made me realize, yeah,you can create a role and it
always involves some form ofcollaboration.
(32:12):
Create a role to help others,support others, or, in our case,
I guess, we create a roles toproduce something, to produce
this book.
And, yeah, for me to dyke, itwas.
It's been a really wonderfulexperience.
It's given me a lot ofhappiness and joy and I'm very
look, I'm, yeah, looking forwardto seeing you next month when
(32:33):
we have our little book launchat your university.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yes, yeah, it's my pleasure and, yeah, I'm very
happy to hear that.
So, yeah, and I'm lookingforward to seeing you in Japan
soon.
And so through this bookproject we found many new
concepts.
(32:58):
So at first, so, uh, I did someresearch about lawfulness and
originally so, uh, I imagine,about social lawfulness and
internal lawfulness.
Uh, nick and I were writingbook and we discussed many times
and we found many other ideas.
(33:18):
So can I introduce the audienceto one of our new ideas?
Sure, sure, nick found a veryinteresting idea and I'm very
interested about it, and so it'sa concept of knowfulness.
(33:38):
So that's a quite new idea.
So I hope perhaps many audienceare very interested in it.
What is knowfulness?
So, nick, can you introducethis idea of knowfulness?
Sure, daiki.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
So, yes, this I mean it just came to me as I was
writing the book, but it isinspired by knowfulness, so I
should thank you, daiki.
I would not think of knowfulness, had I not written this book
with you and I thought, yeah,knowfulness, so saying no, and
(34:18):
it's this idea of settingboundaries by saying no to
others and, rather than feelguilty, you feel liberated and
satisfied, which is reallyimportant.
Yeah, you feel liberated andsatisfied because you are living
true to yourself and it can bevery hard to say no to others,
with expectations and societalpressure.
But we should all feel thefreedom to say no when what is
(34:41):
being asked of us doesn't alignto our values or when, for
whatever reason, we just don'twant to do something.
It doesn't feel right.
So it's actually reallyliberating when others are
intentionally or unintentionallytrying to take advantage of you
.
So it's almost like asuperpower If you can say no and
(35:04):
you don't feel guilty, youthink no, this is right, I'm
just going to say no.
And it just doesn't mean you sayno to something.
It can also mean you make thedecision not to do something,
like responding to a text or anemail or answering the phone.
If it's not right, if you don'twant to talk to that person, if
(35:26):
you don't want to reply to theemail, you just say to yourself
no, I'm not going to do that.
So, in short, knowfulness isthe feeling of liberation and
satisfaction you experience whenyou take control and say no to
the requests, expectations ordemands of others or society in
(35:47):
general.
Now, of course, the way youcommunicate this is important,
and it depends on context.
You can say no with compassion.
Sometimes you might have to sayit with firmness, but always be
respectful and you don't everhave to feel that you have to
explain yourself.
(36:08):
You're just expressing yourselfand yeah.
You can just say things like no, thank you, I'm not interested,
or no, what you're asking, itdoesn't suit me or it's not
aligned to my values, and I knowthis is a big problem in Japan.
So maybe this would also be agood book for Japanese, like if
we wrote a book on knowfulness,which we might do, because
(36:33):
Japanese really struggle withthis idea of no.
They can't even say no.
They have other expressions,like you know, ちょっと難しい, like oh,
that's a little difficult.
So it is very hard to say no ingeneral, but I think it's
harder for Japanese.
Would I be right about that?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yes.
So yeah, I completely agreewith your idea.
So in Japanese culture,including me, so many people
feel that, so guilty when we sayno to others.
Yeah, so in many situations solike in the relationship with
friends, or in the work, therelationship with colleagues, or
(37:15):
in the work, the relationshipwith colleagues so, yeah, many
Japanese people feel guilty whenwe have to say no to them.
But I think that that kind offeeling is really connected with
lawfulness.
So if we don't have lawfulness,we don't have lawfulness, we
(37:35):
don't have confidence to myself,and so if we don't have
confidence, it's difficult tosay yes or no to others so
directly.
So, but if we have lawfulnessand confidence, we can easily
(37:58):
tell my own opinion to others orsay no to others.
So, yeah, I think lawfulnessand knowfulness is quite
connected to each other and bothaspects are very important,
especially in Japanese cultures.
That kind of sense is reallyimportant and yeah so I'm very
(38:23):
interested in the concept ofknowfulness, and so it's a very
new idea, but it's veryinteresting for the concept of
the academic researches and it'salso a very friendly and easy
world to understand.
And so, yeah, let's success ournew project.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Yeah, so happy to share that with you.
Definitely, and I mean it camefrom this idea of boundaries we
set in our roles.
We have a role, we have morethan one role, we have multiple
roles and maybe, going back tothose problems, you know, role
conflict, role overload allthose things happen when we
(39:08):
don't have boundaries and oftenthe boundary is just saying no.
And so, yeah, I think nofullness, framing no as no
fullness makes it lighter, makesit easier, especially if you
think, oh, this is me beinghonest or being true, this is
how I best serve people.
(39:29):
If I say yes to this, I servepeople.
If I say no to this, I'mserving people because I'm not
doing something that I don'twant to do.
And if you don't want to dosomething and you still say yes,
you're not going to do yourbest work.
You're going to have thisnegativity.
Negative feelings could lead toresentment.
And it made me realize thatIkigai is about working out what
(39:54):
you want to say yes to and whatyou want to say no to, because
you want to say yes to thingsthat are meaningful, that give
you a sense of purpose, thatgive you life satisfaction, that
connect you to others in ameaningful way, and then you
want to say no to things thatare not in line with your values
(40:16):
, that you're not interested in,or maybe you just don't have
the strengths, they're notaligned to your strengths.
They can still be positivethings, but you've got to know
this suits me, this doesn't suitme.
I can use my strengths in these, or I can't.
Or, yeah, this is not alignedto me, I'm not the right person.
(40:37):
So, yeah, who knows, maybe nofullness will become a
psychological concept.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
But today we're talking about rolefulness, so we
shouldn't get off track, Nike.
So rolefulness it's our newbook.
We've worked two years on thisand two years sounds like a lot
of time, but we were.
We were doing this role inbetween our other roles and,
yeah, we're very excited.
So, if you're looking forrolefulness in your life and it
(41:08):
really is a guide to purposefulliving, we've written it for you
and it's now available onamazon.
Yeah, so you can purchase thebook on amazon and we'll be
probably updating the book aswell as we go, and we'll
probably do a few more podcastson rolefulness.
(41:29):
Maybe no fullness.
So any final Daiki as we finishup this episode.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, today.
So I'm very happy to talk withyou and we can look back our
book project.
And so when was the last time Ijoined your Ikigai podcast?
So two years ago or more.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
It was October 2022.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So nearly three years ago, yeah, yeah.
So at that time, yeah, it wasso excited.
And so Nick and I talk aboutIkigai and lawfulness and, yeah,
the conversation was reallyinteresting for me.
And yeah, after that, so thesetwo years, so we discussed each
(42:24):
other many times and keeping ourgood friendship and we could
find very new ideas aboutlawfulness, very new ideas about
lawfulness.
And so today, yeah, we couldlook back to our activities and
our journey and so, yeah, it wasa very happy time for me and
(42:47):
I'm very happy that our journeyis not end yet and we continue
to expand our idea and tellingour ideas to more and more
people all over the world, andlet's continue our project
(43:08):
NoFluNess.
Maybe I will be able to findmore new roles with you and,
yeah, it's a very happy time forme today.
Thank you very much, nick.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
My pleasure, daiki.
No good times ahead.
I think next year, when I'mliving in Japan, we'll have a
lot more rolefulness and it'sbeen a real source of ikigai
writing this book with you and,yeah, I really appreciate it,
your trust in me, and now wehave this wonderful friendship
and, yeah, we're collaboratorsand we've written this book
(43:45):
together and we're celebratingit on this episode, but I really
appreciate our friendship too,and I'm very happy as well.
So, thank you, Daiki.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, thank you very much yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Okay, so there you go , guys Rolefulness on Amazon.
If you're wanting to find morepurpose in your life, or even
find your unique role, read ourbook.
Okay, bye, for now.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah, bye, thank you.
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