October 26, 2025 • 51 mins
What if the hard road is the honest road—and also the most creative? Neuroscientist and author Ken Mogi joins us to explore how Stoicism and Ikigai converge on a single idea: live in alignment with nature, accept limits with grace, and let difficulty forge depth. We move from the awe of a first butterfly to the precision of a rocket launch, tracing how humility, gratitude, and restraint can transform work, relationships, and personal meaning.
Ken challenges the stereotypes. Stoicism isn’t about shutting down emotion; it’s about seeing clearly and acting accordingly. Creativity thrives under constraints because it has to answer to reality—melody has rules, physics has teeth, and craftsmanship respects the materials. That same ethic shows up in Japanese culture: itadakimasu as a daily lesson in interdependence, the ripening rice ear that bows as it grows heavy, and kaiseki cuisine that reveals flavor instead of hiding it. Ikigai, in this light, becomes alignment with who we are and how we want to relate to others, not a checklist of what we’re paid for.
We also press into modern stakes: AI alignment, the “cult of statistics,” and why humility matters when systems scale beyond any single author. Ken argues for Stoic design principles—restraint, transparency, and alignment with the laws of nature—to keep power tethered to purpose. Along the way, we discuss lowering expectations to reduce needless suffering, desirable difficulties as a compass for growth, and the quiet courage to choose the next step—potential infinity within a human life.
If you’re ready to replace hype with clarity and busyness with intention, this conversation offers practical wisdom and a fresh lens on meaning, creativity, and resilience. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a reset, and leave a review telling us which idea you’ll practice this week.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
When you have two roads before you and one road is
an easy road and the other wayroad is a difficult road, if you
can choose a difficult road, uhbecause that's when you become
really creative.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Ken Moggy, neuroscientist author, among
many other things, returns tothe Ikigai Tribe podcast to talk
about his new book, Think Like aStoic: The Ancient Path to a
Life Well Lived.
So I've just finished it today,actually, Ken.
So it's a great read, as always.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for having me today.
(00:39):
Thank you.
No, thank you, Ken.
You've been very generous withyour time uh with me.
This is our fourth podcasttogether.
You attended my online summit in2023.
And of course, you participatedin my Ikigai retreat last year.
So it's a pleasure to have youback, Ken.
Yeah.
That was wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Nobody understands Ikigai like you.
It's always an inspiration towatch you interact with people.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
Maybe you have the Ikigai jin in you.
I think you have it in you too,Ken.
So yeah, I really appreciate ourfriendship and your time and all
the love and learning you spreadwith your literature, your time,
and our conversations.
So, what sparked the decision towrite this book on Stoicism?
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Well, I have been always reading Stoicism books.
In my book, I argue thatSocrates is a father of
Stoicism, and I am such a greatreader of Socrates.
It may sound a bit unexpectedfor audiences from outside
(01:50):
Japan, but in Japan, good boyslike me.
We read uh Greek philosophersfrom childhood.
For some reason or another, soPlato writes a lot about
Socrates.
Actually, Socrates didn't writeanything about himself, so you
know, we know only through Platowhat uh Socrates was thinking.
(02:12):
I I think I really resonate withSocrates in his way of looking
at life.
And yeah, of course, Nick, uhyou have been in Japan and you
know Japanese culture, and Ithink summarized I think these
people were really stoic peopleliving for something greater
(02:33):
than themselves, living inalignment with orders of the
world.
It's quite contrary to somepeople who are so self-centered,
selfish, and you know,self-focused.
So I think stoicism is somethingbigger than you, and that
resonates very well with theJapanese philosophy of life.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
When I wrote my book and I was talking to my editor,
and I was introducing conceptslike Gamman and Gambaru, there
was the suggestion of relatingit to Stoicism, but I wasn't
sure.
I think in many ways, theseconcepts, which we'll talk about
later, do reflect, I guess, aJapanese type of stoicism or
that they share that theme.
(03:16):
So I guess that sparked your ownculture and your own thoughts
about the culture and reading onthis subject from a young age.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
If you look at people like ElonMusk, you realize that he's a
big mouth.
Elon Musk is always kind ofmaking claims and a really
controversial guy.
But when he launches hisrockets, that's very stoic.
Because here I'm talking aboutacting in alignment with
(03:47):
physical roles.
You can't disregard physicalroles when you launch a rocket.
So you can be a big mouth andyou can say, Well, hey guys, I'm
going to Mars.
You know, I'm going to Mars anduse this rocket.
And you can say that.
But at the end of the day, ifyour rocket is not made in a
(04:08):
stoic way, meaning it is inalignment with the physical
rules, your rocket is going tobe exploding until you be a
failure.
So Elon Musk, I think, issurprisingly one of the most
stoic persons on Earth living.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Didn't he have four failures before he finally
successfully launched?
He was on the brink toofinancially.
I think NASA lent him a sort ofa lifeline.
So he risked it all to obviouslypursue this goal of getting to
Mars.
I actually remember one day Ishowed my wife one of the
launches, and it affected her soprofoundly that she actually
(04:52):
cried.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
And I was surprised.
And I thought, wow, it seemed toimpact her in this way, like,
wow, the human race has leveledup a little bit.
So it is important stoicism,which we'll talk about today.
But what I found reallyinteresting is the dedication in
your book, and I quote,dedicated to the first butterfly
(05:17):
that I saw as a child.
So do you want to touch on that?
And do you actually rememberseeing a butterfly for the first
time?
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
I wanted something poetic to start with my book,
and when my editor asked me whomshould I dedicate the book to?
I thought maybe the firstbutterfly I ever saw as a child.
Because do you actually rememberthe time you saw a butterfly?
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
I think I do have the memory of the awe of seeing
this little thing flutter about,and you have the desire to chase
it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Comes at the total surprise.
You know, of course, I'm inJapan.
You were born in Australia, sowe have different kinds of
butterflies.
For me, it's this sense ofwonder about the world we live
in.
We are born into this worldwithout any prior knowledge,
unless you had some prior life.
Some people do believe in that,but as a scientist, I don't
(06:12):
believe in that.
So I was born into this worldwithout any knowledge, and I see
a butterfly, and hey, what'sthis?
Or when you see a reallyattractive person, a girl, for
the first time.
You remember that?
Four or five years old, and hey,what's this?
You remember that?
All these wonders that comeaway, I think that's very stoic
(06:34):
because we respect the world.
I have a question.
So, Nick, I always thought thatyou are a very stoic person,
self-disciplined, a full ofappreciation of the blessings of
the world, all these gifts thatcome away.
So, where does it come from?
Is it your personality or yourheritage?
Where do you think it comesfrom?
(06:54):
Your appreciation of the world.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
That is an interesting question.
I do ponder on this idea thatwe're born with this personality
and we don't really choose it.
And you you often see this in alarge family of brothers or
sisters, they're all unique anddifferent.
Right.
You would hope upbringing wouldhave some positive influence.
I guess if you have parents whoencourage you to be grateful and
(07:17):
appreciate, and they offervaluable life lessons, and then
maybe life experience also playsinto it.
But yeah, we seem to be bornwith this personality, which is
sort of the foundation of who webecome, how we interact with
others, and maybe our level ofappreciation.
But I think also living abroadfor me, living in Japan for 10
(07:41):
years really exposed me todifferent mindset, different way
of thinking, also seeingJapanese have so much of their
culture is about appreciation tothe point of kimarimong set
expressions and the deepmeaning, like something like
Itarikimasu.
I just thought it meant oh I'mreceiving food, but then later I
(08:03):
understood it had this meaningof I'm receiving life, something
has died, and it will sustain meas I eat it.
We don't have those kind of setexpressions in Australia.
So I think it's a combination,but it maybe it starts with your
personality and your willingnessto learn and be open to
(08:26):
different cultures.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
What you have just said is quite interesting for me
because in my book I try toconnect stoicism with modern and
contemporary science.
So I think this appreciation ofthe fact that you are receiving
food, this food, as a result ofsome creatures living died for
(08:48):
it.
That's empathy, that'scompassion, but also it's a
scientific way of seeing thingsthat they really are.
We can sometimes be delusional.
Some kids might have thisdelusion that foods are on the
shelves of supermarkets, and ifyou go there, they are there for
(09:11):
you, prepared.
Some people do have thatattitude.
As you said, in Japan we sayitadakimasu, which means I'm
receiving this food, and that'sappreciation of the fact that we
are all connected in the world.
I am connected to you in someway or other.
We have had some beer, well,actually a lot of beer.
(09:32):
So we are connected.
Recently, I came across thisreally interesting idea about
brain gut access.
And some research in CentralAmerica has shown that if you
associate with people, you startto share the gut microbiota with
other people.
So the more you associate withpeople, you shake hands, you
(09:54):
hug, and sometimes even youmight kiss each other.
Those interactions actually yourmicrobiota shared.
So that's a really fascinatingidea.
I think all these spiritualdimensions of Itatakimasu or uh
Ikigai or Toicism, I think theyhave scientific foundations
(10:19):
which we really need toappreciate.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
Well, it is a fascinating, I don't know what
you call it, philosophy of wayof living.
But what's interesting is theetymology of the word.
So you want to touch on what theword stoic or stoicism means and
comes from?
Stoicism comes from stoic thepainted roof.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
One of the things that I kind of stressed in this
book is that stoicism is not acult of personality.
Nowadays, people kind ofworship, they have the tendency
to worship a particular person.
Like in entertainment, forexample, you might worship
Taylor Swift, which I think isjustified.
But entertainment is somethingbigger than a particular
individual.
(11:02):
Bruno Mars or Taylor Swift orMadonna.
So the case of philosophy, forexample, if there's a founder of
a school of philosophy like Kantor Herger, some people tend to
worship these people.
But Stoicism, although arguably,as I said, Socrates is probably
the father of Stoicism, it's notassociated with the name of a
(11:23):
particular individual, which Ithink is really great.
You know, important concepts arebigger than a particular
individual.
So Ikigai is bigger than me oryou combined.
So Ikigai is something biggerthan a particular person.
The same can be said aboutstoicism.
(11:43):
Stoicism is something biggerthan a particular person.
That's I think that's veryimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
I think it's important.
I mean, it comes without theburden of, I guess, religion.
So there's no feelings of guiltor having to follow some
doctrines or be a certain havecertain beliefs.
You can sort of study Stoicismand relate it to your life.
But the concept also has manyinterpretations, or it kind of
(12:10):
has this image that you touch onin the book, but you relate
Stoicism to so many things aboutlife.
So it's a fascinatingeye-opening read.
And one thing I really thoughtuh would be helpful is the first
step to becoming a stoic thatyou share is to never expect
(12:32):
certain behavior from anyone.
You share the idea if yourexpectations are low, you can
enjoy the sunshine more, which Ireally believe in.
So you want to touch on that abit more?
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
As you wrong, as you live in this life, you expect
less and less from other people.
For example, when you are datingsomebody, when you are a
teenager, you expect so muchfrom your date.
Sometimes you want her to bekind, understanding.
But that doesn't happentypically.
So then you are really upset andyou're not happy.
(13:07):
But that's all your fault.
And because nobody owes you adate.
I mean, you know, even in workplaces, your boss doesn't have
the obligation to behave as youexpect, and your parents also,
your family members.
And so again, I framed stoicismas a way of life in alignment
(13:29):
with laws of nature.
So laws of nature tells you thatother people don't behave in
ways that you would like them tobehave.
That's science.
I have been watching how youlead the Iki tribe, and you are
always kind and generous, andyou're not a bossy, you're
(13:50):
really natural, relaxed, and sothat's stoic, that's very stoic,
you know, according to mydefense.
You don't expect too much fromother people.
All right?
SPEAKER_02 (14:00):
No, no.
I mean, I like this idea,stoicism allows you just to
really be yourself, of course,to like the work you do, you
know, growing a business, yeah,it's quite hard and challenging,
but you you definitely need thesupport of others.
So I guess when you're seekingthe support of others, like when
I asked you to first do thepodcast, obviously I'm gonna do
(14:22):
that with kindness andgratitude.
And then when that's genuine, Iguess you reciprocate and and
now we have this friendship andconnection.
But yeah, if I was demandingembossy, it probably wouldn't
look too good for you, and wewouldn't have this friendship.
So I I think, yeah, stoicism'shas this image that you're kind
of alone and isolated with yourthoughts, and you're thinking
(14:44):
I've got to be this strongperson resilient.
But stoicism comes frominteractions with others, uh
relationships, understandingpeople, and you know, obviously
developing resilience, but alsounderstanding I have
expectations.
These are my expectations, and Ishould manage them rather than
(15:06):
thinking people owe me or peopleshould do this for me.
So I think that obviously comeswith life experience as we
become to understand the ways ofrelationships, and obviously,
even like the laws of nature.
You really go broad on this ideaof stoicism.
You you even tie it to Ikigai,stating that Ikigai provides the
(15:28):
feeling that what you are doingaligns with your perception of
yourself and how you want torelate to others and to society
at large.
And that resonated with mebecause that's how I want to
live my life.
I want to be in alignment withpeople and the work that I do.
Really, it's self-referential,and ikiguy is your life.
(15:51):
Do you want to touch on therelationship between Ikigai and
Stoicism a bit more?
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
I think Ikigai is about conversation.
Actually, I went to Germany inAugust to meet my editor of
Dumont.
This is the Dumont version ofIkigai, and I'm really grateful
for the fact that this bookbecame the number one bestseller
in nonfiction.
And I went to the bookshops inGermany, and my books were
everywhere.
(16:18):
They were selling better thanHaruki, so I was surprised.
But probably we share the samefeeling here.
We have just started tounderstand ikigai, its broad
implications.
And as we have been discussing,I think alignment is one of the
key concepts to come to agenuine understanding of Ikigai.
(16:41):
We need to live in accordancewith what nature has for us, or
what human society has for it.
And Ikigai is actuallyunderstanding of life's
alignment with greater things.
I think that's very Japanese.
You know, we have grand smalltournament now in London
happening today.
Small wrestlers, they neverboast.
(17:04):
As you know, even if they win,they never boast out of respect
for your opponent because youropponent wants to win as well.
So you never show joy on thesmall ring.
That's a very beautifulexpression of the fact that we
live together and nobody is anisland.
(17:28):
All this scientific realizationthat we are social animals and
no one is that special.
You think you are special, butno one is that special in the
society.
Everybody is a piece of thegreater picture.
All these things, I think that'svery much related to Ikigai and
also Stoicism.
So I think alignment is aligningyourself with greater things in
(17:53):
the universe.
I think that's the key commonthread, if you like, these
important concepts.
Ikigai is very Japanese, butstoicism is arguably very
Western, the very European,Greek, Roman.
So combining Ikigai andStoicism, I think, is a really
great way to meet between theEast and West.
(18:15):
And that's what you're doing.
Nick, you have been doing reallywonderful work of that.
Yeah, many, many, many things tobe explored from here, I think.
You know.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
Well, it is true.
I mean, I I think I've onlyscratched the surface when it
comes to learning about Ikigaithat there's so many more
conversations to have and somany more books to read.
So many people are writingresearch papers on it now, so
that the body of work on Ikigaiitself is growing, and this is
connecting me to more Japaneseand non-Japanese.
(18:46):
Talk about this.
And I think that's almost yes,you said that's like a stoic
process of conversing, learning,sharing, and every time you have
a conversation, you kind ofbecome a slightly fuller or
different person because youhave this wisdom, you have this
experience.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
What's what's decision like in Australia?
How do Australian people embraceIki or Stoicism?
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Well, I guess we would embrace it with a fairly
lay-back attitude.
Depends what kind of Australianyou're talking about.
We have these Australians whoare very direct, don't mind
dropping F-bombs, have strongbeliefs about this and that.
But then we're also amulticulture now, so we're quite
open to other cultures andlearning.
(19:35):
I think our cult ofpersonalities are sports.
You know, we love our sport.
So we we just had our grandfinal for both rugby and AFL.
Now we'll move into cricket.
We love that, and so we probablyexperienced stoicism through
sport, through getting so closeto winning, yet losing, or
(20:00):
suffering, you know, my team'sjust suffered another horrible
year.
We haven't made the finals for20 years.
Our captain wanted to tradehimself to another team.
So things are really bad for myteam, but I still love my team,
and I still support and hopethat we'll get back to winning.
(20:21):
So even following your team isthis form of having stoicism
because you have to endure allthe bad times, all the
frustrations, and believe thatit's still worth your time
caring about a team.
I mean, you talk about this, theidea of there's limitations, but
we can also be audacious in whatwe do or what we pursue, but we
(20:45):
also have to realize ourlimitations.
So I think that's true insupporting a team.
Like you want your team to win,but you also must understand
most of the times they're gonnalose.
And so you have to accept thatimbalance or balance.
Because if you don't, you'realways gonna be angry or
unhappy.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
This I think is a very interesting point that
you're raising because I go tobaseball because I love
baseball.
Shouhe Otani is now playing inLos Angeles Doggers, and
probably baseball is not thatbig in Australia, but it's big
in Japan as well as in theStates.
When I go to a baseball match,baseball game, I don't actually
(21:28):
root for a particular team.
I just watch the players dotheir best, performing.
Sohee Otani pitching.
He pitches already as bad, sothat he's a really great,
amazing person.
Sometimes he succeeds, hits ahome run, but sometimes he just
thinks out.
(21:48):
And it doesn't really matterbecause I know Sohee Otani is
doing his best.
So I really love to watch peopledoing their best.
(22:27):
Japan actually won againstBrazil for the first time ever
in now much international matcha few years ago in Tokyo.
That was a big headline, youknow, all over Japan.
You know, Japan wins overBrazil.
But I don't really care too muchabout it.
(23:04):
That's really beautiful towatch, and that's very stoic.
I mean, so I don't care too muchabout wins or loses.
The fact that you have done bestthat the fact that some people
are doing their best and you'rewatching it, you are sharing
that moment.
I think that's all that isimportant.
How how do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_02 (23:23):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I was gonna ask, do you thinkthat's a quality of you?
You've had a pretty unique life,and I think from a young age,
yeah, I think you were readingmeditations when you were 15,
and you're a neuroscientist, youtravel the world, you speak
multiple languages, and you'reobviously quite stoic.
(23:44):
But I also know Japanese ingeneral kind of have more
appreciation for both.
Whereas if I took you to a footymatch can here in Australia,
you'd see a lot of ugliness,you'd see a lot of swearing and
people getting angry and yellingat the umpire and abuse, and
then you'd see lots of happypeople only because obviously
(24:06):
they've won.
I think it's beautiful that youcan see the bigger picture.
Is that a result of being stoic?
You see the bigger picture.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
Yeah, this is interesting, isn't it?
I mean, um in the samurai era,of course, it was a life or
death battle.
But if you read Japaneseclassics, uh it's always about
the losing side as well as thewinning side.
For example, the most famouscase is the tale of Heike, it
(24:36):
describes a really great battlebetween Heike and Genji crowns.
Um Genji crown, so they dominateJapan.
But the story is about the Heikepeople, you know, how they lose
and how they weep and how theyfeel sad, and all these literary
(24:59):
uh descriptions of the losingside.
It's actually one of the mostfamous tales in Japan.
So it's quite interesting.
Probably it's in the Japaneseculture to see the winning side
and losing side on the equalfooting, and sometimes that's
even sympathizing with thelosing side.
And I think that's quite inmanga and anime as well.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
But I think there's this more compassionate
awareness in Japan and more thisidea of doing the right thing.
I know out of consideration forothers, Japanese won't even
share their good news.
Whereas in the West, we havethis tendency to want to
celebrate.
I got a new job or I've I'veachieved this, and Japanese
(25:45):
don't tend to do that.
Yeah, that's quite interesting.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I began to appreciate thata lot when I lived in Japan.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah, because that's interesting because you know, I
think in Japan, uh, if youbecome quite successful, uh you
don't show it because otherpeople are not successful.
That's a really interestingobservation.
I didn't realize that becauseit's something that is so
natural of here, but as youmentioned it, yeah, that's also
(26:16):
really true.
So we don't know, typically knowwho's got uh pay rise or you
know who's got promoted, exceptfor very close friends, because
people do not broadcast it.
Yeah, it's quite an interestingobservation.
Do you your celebrations bigtime in Australia?
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
Me personally, not really, but I'll share with
family or my brother, but I meanwe we have something similar, I
think you know, Ken, uh tallpoppy syndrome.
Once someone becomes quitefamous or successful, if they
become too famous or successful,like a tall poppy, we want to
(26:57):
kind of cut them down and bringthem back to earth.
It's an Australian saying.
So tall poppy syndrome.
We kind of celebrate wins andvictory, so we're not like
Japan.
Maybe we're in the middle ofJapan and let's say somewhere
like America, where we don'twant to overly celebrate
ourselves, and we don't like tosee that in other people.
So we like to some degree to seepeople be humble, and it's true
(27:21):
when you see the captain of ateam being interviewed, and even
if he's played the best game ofhis life and he gets
complimented, he'll say, Oh no,it was a great team effort
today, and and the other teamdid really well, which I think
is a universal thing.
But we have this awareness too: like if you get too famous or (27:37):
undefined
too well known, or you regardyourself too highly, then
Australians will start to thinkyou're a bit of a dickhead.
We'll say something like that,uh, he's a dickhead now.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
In my book, um you know, I have this quote, uh
oops, a rice ear hangs his head,it's head low as it ripens.
So this image of the rice head,kind of buoyant, keep it low
profile, that's a reallyimportant aspect of the culture.
(28:14):
So, yeah, that's quiteinteresting, and you know the
same goes for Instagram.
Of course, some uh Japanesepeople show really showy photos
on their Instagram, buttypically a Japanese person
doesn't want to show how happyhe or she is, what a gorgeous
(28:34):
time they are having.
That's not in our culture.
I mean, that's perceived asAmerican.
Uh I don't know if that'scorrect or not.
Um you know, celebrity people ona big yacht and drinking
champagne, and that's not us.
You know, some Japanese peopleare infected by that virus and
(28:56):
they do that, but that's not us.
So that's quite quite aninteresting observation,
actually.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
That is a beautiful image of that idea that once um
a rice stalk starts the grainsstart to form, it's almost
bowing, and Japanese see that asa way, another symbol of being
grateful for abundance.
So you you've obviously readMeditations by Marcus Aurelius.
I'm wondering, did you read thatin Japanese?
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
Yeah, obviously, when I was a teenager, I did
read it in uh Japanese, but whenI was uh university student
also, um of course I read it inEnglish.
I wish I could have read it inLatin, but I haven't.
Yeah.
Marx Aurelius.
Uh so for some reasons, uh MarxAurelius was always liked by
(29:51):
Japanese people because of theemperor's humility, sense of
humility.
That resonates with the Japaneseuh split, I think.
So and did you know MiyakoKamiya translated the work?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
So Miyako Kamiya, you identifiedher as a mother of Ikigai, and
that's totally justified.
(30:12):
She's a really wonderful person.
So, do you have any comment onthat?
I'm just curious, as somebodywho is very well read, Miyako
Kamiya.
So, do you have any comment onthat?
SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
I'm just amazed at how much she accomplished.
But how much she followed herown icky guy?
So she had a love of languages.
She learned French living inGeneva, I think, from late
childhood to early teens.
She learned studied English,classical Greek.
Then she wanted to studymedicine, and then she formed
(30:47):
this compassion or affinity withlepers, and then wanted to
understand them.
And then that obviously led herto uncovering, yeah, what is
Ikigai.
So she was constantly learningand researching, and she
achieved so much.
She was even a tutor to theformer Empress of Japan.
(31:08):
She was an interpreter for theTokyo War Crimes trial.
So she has like this incredibleCV that is almost impossible to
believe.
A woman living in that time,40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, highly
unlikely for someone to be soprolific.
And she wrote many books.
She deserves as much recognitionas some of her male
(31:29):
contemporaries, but she doesn'tget it at least worldwide.
She doesn't appear to be evenwell known now in Japan.
SPEAKER_01 (31:37):
She is actually well, at least among us, but you
know, not among the generalpublic.
She's not probably a householdname, if you mention.
So yeah, that's totally true.
But as you mentioned, uh, thefact that Miko Kamiya translated
Mark Sauridius is veryimportant, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
She was quite stoic herself.
She had a lot of health issues,suffered a lot of loss in her
life, yet also had thisincredible desire to express
herself through writing.
She was quite successful, yeah.
She was a professor, apsychiatrist.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
And also she was a best-selling author.
SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Yeah, but very humble person.
So, Ken, something I'd love toshare with you one day or one
evening would be Kaiseki.
And you talk about kaiseki inyour book, and you even relate
it to Stoicism.
So maybe a lot of our listenerswould not know what kaiseki is.
So you want to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
It's very expensive.
They come in great varieties andthey tend to be very expensive.
But you must remember that theingredients themselves are taken
from nature.
It's not like the Frenchcuisine, you know, where the
chef kind of imposes his or herown interpretation of how food
(33:01):
should taste.
So whatever the ingredient is inFrench cuisine, especially the
traditional French cuisine, theytend to kind of brush over the
natural ingredients with thesauce.
But in Japanese cuisine, kaiseki cuisine, you know,
everything is so natural.
The seasonings are minimum, somesalt, soy sauce, uh peppers, but
(33:26):
it's always minimum.
And so these cookings are veryminimal.
They taste really great, but thetaste is the taste of the
ingredients themselves takenfrom nature, nature's gift to
humans.
So that's the spirit of kaiseki,and that's I think very stoic
(33:48):
because, as I said, stoicism isabout living in alignment with
nature, right?
So some people might say thatkai seek is very luxurious.
Well, it is luxurious in termsof price, but in terms of
spirit, it's very stoic.
SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Actually, my my father-in-law treated me and my
wife to kaiseki before we weremarried when I first went to
visit the family.
And yeah, it was amazing.
It was like 13, 15 courses orsomething, and very small.
And you're right, it wasbringing really just the essence
of the taste out.
I remember I never liked uni,and then when I had uni at this
(34:26):
kaiseki, I loved it.
It was so delicious.
So I think you're right.
There is a stoic process inpreparing the food.
Maybe there's even restraint andthis focus on I'm not
influencing the flavor of thefood, I'm just drawing out the
flavor of the food from nature.
Yeah, it's quite an experience.
So if you get to have kaiseki inJapan, I recommend it.
(34:47):
So at the start of your book,you have mentioned that seeing a
butterfly is like your littleicky guy, something you observe
and really appreciate, andconnects you back to your
childhood and you something youstudied.
But qualia, you write, is yourmain icky guy, one of your
purpose-driven icky guys.
(35:08):
So, do you want to touch on whatqualia is and how are you trying
to solve the puzzle of qualia?
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Yeah, I have been kind of razy in that.
Not because I have not beenmaking efforts, but
consciousness studies I think isreally difficult.
But you know, I can say thatthose people who claim they have
a theory of consciousness areall wrong.
I am really interested in how wecan solve quarry.
(35:38):
Quaria is a redness of red andcoolness of water and smell of
meat.
I think this is going to be themost significant work, not
Ikivali or not Stoicism, becausethis is very original.
Yeah, and 30 years have fast,almost 30 years, but there's
(36:01):
nothing equivalent to this book,I think, in the literature now.
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
But I mean you're also quite prolific, Ken.
You're constantly writing books,you're you're traveling, you're
delivering lectures, you haveyour podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
I I'm a disrupted person, it's always disrupted.
SPEAKER_02 (36:18):
How how do you manage your time, Nick?
I just keep going with the nextstep.
I think you talk about thatinfinity, like infinity is just
following the next step.
So you talk about two types ofinfinity in your book, and one
seems impossible for us tounderstand, but we can
understand another type ofinfinity just by the next step.
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
As I said, this is Isotope who made this
distinction.
Actually, infinity we can neverunderstand because we are mortal
humans.
But the potential infinity, asyou said, is about the next
step.
So as long as you have a nextstep, you have access to
potential infinity.
(37:01):
So that's all we can hope toachieve in our life to handle
potential infinity.
SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
Yeah, so that's how I manage my time.
But another interesting idea youpresent, which contradicts, I
guess, this uh image we have ofStoics, is we think they're not
creative.
We think they're reading oldbooks or just making plain
decisions or doing things thehard way.
But you really say stoics arecreative, and that every stoic
is creative or should be.
(37:31):
So do you want to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01 (37:33):
Creativity is about finding the truth, what makes us
possible, you know, makes lifepossible.
For example, Albert Einstein wasa very stoic person, Johann
Sebastian Bach.
He was a stoic.
So, you know, every greatcreator, I think, was a stoic.
Because creativity is aboutfinding truth about ourselves
(37:57):
and the world.
So the question is, where doesit come, this misunderstanding
of stoic people not creative?
I think that's an interestingissue.
For example, you if you look atthe film Amadeus, Mozart is
portrayed as a really frivolousperson.
But on the other hand, Mozart,of course, was a stoic, right?
(38:22):
Because he wrote so manybeautiful music and this music
followed some roads of melodyand rhythm and harmony.
I think there's an image problemof stoicism, you know, stoic
people.
But you should also realize thatMozart was a stoic person as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (38:42):
I think this leads to something that really
resonated with me (38:45):
desirable difficulties.
And from that, we can becreative, we grow, we learn, we
get closer to the person we wantto be.
So we should embrace desirabledifficulties because they bring
out our true self or the best inus.
SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
When you have two roles before you, and one road
is an easy road, and the otherway is a difficult road, if you
can choose a difficult road,because that's when you become
really creative.
I have this fascination aboutthe history of human evolution.
(39:24):
We were born in Africa, and outof Africa we spread all over the
globe.
So in that process, ourancestors crossed over to, for
example, Australia.
In that process, our ancestorscrossed over the ocean.
So, you know, just imagine youare facing an ocean and you
(39:49):
don't know if there will beIreland or Land or whatever.
So when you migrate, at leastthere need to be maybe 10, 20
people, females, males,otherwise you cannot start a
population once you get toAustralia.
So that's amazing, isn't it?
So that that's a reallydifficult road to be taken.
(40:12):
But if our ancestors didn't takethat road, we wouldn't be in
Australia or South Africa, SouthAmerica.
So there are times when youreally need to do that.
I mean, to take the difficultroad.
That comes in when you wroteyour first book, Ikigai Gang,
that was a difficult decision,wasn't it?
(40:34):
But without that book, youwouldn't be here, right?
SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Yeah.
You're right.
I mean, I I didn't do well atschool.
I struggled.
I really struggled with writingand spelling.
So I've always had a verynegative relationship with
writing and and lack ofself-belief.
But yeah, Ikigai was soimportant to me.
I thought I need to expressmyself.
I can do it through podcasts, Ican do it for conversations, I
(40:59):
can do it for videos, but itfelt the book was the next step,
you know, the right thing to do.
And I'm writing another booknow.
So you overcome these falsebeliefs or challenges.
But I think your book, Ken, Ithink Facus Dog's really timely
because our lives have radicallychanged.
Let's say for most people now inthe last five years with AI, the
(41:22):
uptake of ChatGPT wasincredible.
Like most people are usingChatGPT every day now.
There's all this anxiety aboutthe future, there's obviously
positive aspects, but you talkabout AI alignment, and there's
obviously icky guy risks,there's even possible
extinction.
So, how does the stoic piecehelp us with all this
(41:47):
uncertainty and fear as ourlives are radically changing?
And there's also this fear we'renot going to be thinking for
ourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (41:58):
In my book, I wrote about Kazoo Ishiguro, the
novelist, and he his works areall about stoicism.
The most famous one is Remainsof the Day, where the butler
Stevens hides his love for hiscolleague, and that's very
(42:18):
stoic.
But also Kazoo Ishiguro writesabout artificial intelligence in
his novel Clara and the sun, andwhere the artificial friend
tries to be kind to her humanfriend, and you know that's kind
of artificial stoicism.
So we should really study how wecan build AI that would behave
(42:40):
like a stoic, you know,restraining their ability,
restraining their behavior.
That's a really important fieldof research.
Many people have been discussingso many things about it, and
people don't have an answer yet.
The Nobel Prize-winningmathematician, uh Jeffrey
Hinton, who is sometimes calledthe father of artificial
(43:04):
intelligence, he says he doesn'thave any idea how he can do
that.
So some people are really,really pessimistic about the
future of AI.
We might actually become extinctbecause of AI.
That's the argument of somepeople.
So we really need to studystoicism seriously.
(43:24):
How we can make artificialintelligence systems that would
align with humans and also thatalign with the laws of nature.
I think that's a very urgenttopic, uh actually.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
You actually mentioned we we might be moving
from cult of personality, wherewe're fixated on people, cult
leaders, or rock stars, or uhinfluencers, to moving to cult
of statistics.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
You want to touch on what that means?
I have written so many thingsthat are interesting to me in my
book, but that might be a hardsell.
I don't know if this book willdo well.
My book takes time to kind ofspread.
So I have written so manyinteresting things.
(44:12):
Interesting to me, notnecessarily interesting to the
general public, so I'm not sure,but anyway, cluster statistics,
yeah.
Artificial intelligence systems,they obey statistical learning
algorithms.
If you take ChatGPT, as youknow, no single author counts.
Whether it's Shakespeare, KasoIshigar, or any great writers,
(44:38):
they are just bits of data inthe great ocean of collective
human writings.
So no author, however great heor she might be, counts.
That's a count of statistics.
So we are just data.
You know, hey you, Nick, you arejust data.
(44:58):
I'm also just a piece of data,right?
Whatever we write about IKI,it's just a really tiny part of
what has been written already.
So we don't count, we don'tcount, Nick, for AI.
This is true.
SPEAKER_02 (45:15):
This is why you say we are all equally unimportant.
So I think I found your bookeye-opening.
So if I'm recommending it,saying this will surprise you
because initially some ideas youkind of think, oh, is that
stoic?
And then you realize, oh,actually, it is.
So it's very eye-opening, and II recommend it.
(45:39):
So if you want a new perspectiveor a broader perspective on
stoicism, obviously I recommendyour your book, Ken.
And it's kind of refreshing,actually.
SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
I recommend uh Nick Kemp's uh Ikigai Khan.
Also, uh his new book, upcomingbook.
Where is it coming out?
SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Um that'll come out December, so a year of Ikigai.
That was challenging because Ihad to do like a daily entry and
I couldn't expand on ideas.
So I found that verychallenging, and I had to sort
of come up with 365 ideas ofexpressing Ikigai.
But of course, Ken, you get amention in my book.
(46:19):
So thank you for your quote.
So you recommend becomingsomeone's Plato, yes?
SPEAKER_01 (46:26):
Yeah.
Maybe your father's Prat or yourmother's Prator.
I like this idea that somebody'safterlife is in the memory of
people who remember them.
So typically an afterlife iswhen you go to heaven and you
have a wonderful afterlife.
(46:47):
But I I don't believe in that inthat.
Uh I believe that somebody'safterlife is how we remember
these people.
So if your dad was a greatperson, you can remember and
write about him.
Or you your granddad, yourgrandmother, or somebody you
knew, you had the privilege toknow.
(47:10):
Socrales didn't write anythingabout himself, but Plato
remembered him.
So what we read about Socratesis actually an afterlife of
Socrates, as remembered by andyou know written by Prado.
So you should be somebody'sPrado, Nick.
(47:31):
Maybe I'm uh a Plato forJapanese culture or something.
Yeah, I really appreciate youfor that, and you are so
genuine.
I should be saying this, butthis Venn diagram of Ikigai so
misrepresents the core conceptof Ikigai, so I'm not so happy
with it.
So, you know, it's not ikigai,it's purpose.
(47:53):
I mean, what you have, that'scertainly ikigai.
But what you are paid for, whatthe society needs, and what you
are good at, these threeelements are totally irrelevant
for ikigai from my perspectiveand from the perspective of
Japanese culture.
So maybe you can have yourikigai in drawing, making
(48:17):
paintings, and you might not begood at it, but that's totally
okay.
You might love making music, andsociety might not need it, but
that's totally okay.
You might actually love watchingbutterflies fly, that's me, you
(48:38):
know, but you are not paid forit, right?
And you don't get received anymoney for it.
That's totally okay.
So this famous uh Venn diagram,that's a Western
misrepresentation of what Ikigaiis actually is.
So I'm really grateful.
It's really great that somebodyfrom outside Japan have a
(49:01):
genuine understanding of Ikigai.
Thank you.
I'm not saying that these Venndiagrams have not been helpful.
You know, I I really gratefulfor these Venn diagrams for
spreading the interest aboutikigai.
But once people get interestedin Ikigai, I hope people will
(49:23):
come to a genuine understandingof what the original philosophy
was.
That's my hope too.
Yeah, what Mirko Kamiya writesabout ikigai.
Well, I mean it's nothing aboutnothing that has nothing to do
with what you're paid for orwhat the society is or what
you're good at.
(49:43):
You know, these are all rubbish.
SPEAKER_02 (49:46):
Uh thanks for sharing that.
I agree with you, Kenneth.
It used to frustrate me.
I thought everything aboutIkigai is factually incorrect or
romanticized.
People think it's the secret tohappiness or the secret to
longevity.
So yeah, it came out of a lovefor Japan, a love for Japanese
culture, and this sort offrustration that it was being
misrepresented.
(50:06):
But I mean, this is my Ikigai,having conversations with
people, getting to know people,this sort of emotional intimacy.
And I really appreciate all thatyou've done for me and our
friendship.
So I'm looking forward to havingmaybe some beer and kaiseki.
SPEAKER_01 (50:23):
Yeah, you really deserve uh applause.
SPEAKER_02 (50:27):
Thank you, Ken.
But congratulations on your newbook.
So Think Like a Stoic TheAncient Path to a Life Well
Lived.
I highly recommend it.
Very insightful.
It will challenge your ideasabout stoicism, which is a good
thing.
So thanks so much for spendingtime with me today, Ken.
Thank you, Nick.
When you have two roads before you and one road is
an easy road and the other wayroad is a difficult road, if you
can choose a difficult road, uhbecause that's when you become
really creative.
SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Ken Moggy, neuroscientist author, among
many other things, returns tothe Ikigai Tribe podcast to talk
about his new book, Think Like aStoic: The Ancient Path to a
Life Well Lived.
So I've just finished it today,actually, Ken.
So it's a great read, as always.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for having me today.
(00:39):
Thank you.
No, thank you, Ken.
You've been very generous withyour time uh with me.
This is our fourth podcasttogether.
You attended my online summit in2023.
And of course, you participatedin my Ikigai retreat last year.
So it's a pleasure to have youback, Ken.
Yeah.
That was wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Nobody understands Ikigai like you.
It's always an inspiration towatch you interact with people.
SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
Maybe you have the Ikigai jin in you.
I think you have it in you too,Ken.
So yeah, I really appreciate ourfriendship and your time and all
the love and learning you spreadwith your literature, your time,
and our conversations.
So, what sparked the decision towrite this book on Stoicism?
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Well, I have been always reading Stoicism books.
In my book, I argue thatSocrates is a father of
Stoicism, and I am such a greatreader of Socrates.
It may sound a bit unexpectedfor audiences from outside
(01:50):
Japan, but in Japan, good boyslike me.
We read uh Greek philosophersfrom childhood.
For some reason or another, soPlato writes a lot about
Socrates.
Actually, Socrates didn't writeanything about himself, so you
know, we know only through Platowhat uh Socrates was thinking.
(02:12):
I I think I really resonate withSocrates in his way of looking
at life.
And yeah, of course, Nick, uhyou have been in Japan and you
know Japanese culture, and Ithink summarized I think these
people were really stoic peopleliving for something greater
(02:33):
than themselves, living inalignment with orders of the
world.
It's quite contrary to somepeople who are so self-centered,
selfish, and you know,self-focused.
So I think stoicism is somethingbigger than you, and that
resonates very well with theJapanese philosophy of life.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
When I wrote my book and I was talking to my editor,
and I was introducing conceptslike Gamman and Gambaru, there
was the suggestion of relatingit to Stoicism, but I wasn't
sure.
I think in many ways, theseconcepts, which we'll talk about
later, do reflect, I guess, aJapanese type of stoicism or
that they share that theme.
(03:16):
So I guess that sparked your ownculture and your own thoughts
about the culture and reading onthis subject from a young age.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
If you look at people like ElonMusk, you realize that he's a
big mouth.
Elon Musk is always kind ofmaking claims and a really
controversial guy.
But when he launches hisrockets, that's very stoic.
Because here I'm talking aboutacting in alignment with
(03:47):
physical roles.
You can't disregard physicalroles when you launch a rocket.
So you can be a big mouth andyou can say, Well, hey guys, I'm
going to Mars.
You know, I'm going to Mars anduse this rocket.
And you can say that.
But at the end of the day, ifyour rocket is not made in a
(04:08):
stoic way, meaning it is inalignment with the physical
rules, your rocket is going tobe exploding until you be a
failure.
So Elon Musk, I think, issurprisingly one of the most
stoic persons on Earth living.
SPEAKER_02 (04:29):
Didn't he have four failures before he finally
successfully launched?
He was on the brink toofinancially.
I think NASA lent him a sort ofa lifeline.
So he risked it all to obviouslypursue this goal of getting to
Mars.
I actually remember one day Ishowed my wife one of the
launches, and it affected her soprofoundly that she actually
(04:52):
cried.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
And I was surprised.
And I thought, wow, it seemed toimpact her in this way, like,
wow, the human race has leveledup a little bit.
So it is important stoicism,which we'll talk about today.
But what I found reallyinteresting is the dedication in
your book, and I quote,dedicated to the first butterfly
(05:17):
that I saw as a child.
So do you want to touch on that?
And do you actually rememberseeing a butterfly for the first
time?
SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
I wanted something poetic to start with my book,
and when my editor asked me whomshould I dedicate the book to?
I thought maybe the firstbutterfly I ever saw as a child.
Because do you actually rememberthe time you saw a butterfly?
SPEAKER_02 (05:42):
I think I do have the memory of the awe of seeing
this little thing flutter about,and you have the desire to chase
it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Comes at the total surprise.
You know, of course, I'm inJapan.
You were born in Australia, sowe have different kinds of
butterflies.
For me, it's this sense ofwonder about the world we live
in.
We are born into this worldwithout any prior knowledge,
unless you had some prior life.
Some people do believe in that,but as a scientist, I don't
(06:12):
believe in that.
So I was born into this worldwithout any knowledge, and I see
a butterfly, and hey, what'sthis?
Or when you see a reallyattractive person, a girl, for
the first time.
You remember that?
Four or five years old, and hey,what's this?
You remember that?
All these wonders that comeaway, I think that's very stoic
(06:34):
because we respect the world.
I have a question.
So, Nick, I always thought thatyou are a very stoic person,
self-disciplined, a full ofappreciation of the blessings of
the world, all these gifts thatcome away.
So, where does it come from?
Is it your personality or yourheritage?
Where do you think it comesfrom?
(06:54):
Your appreciation of the world.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
That is an interesting question.
I do ponder on this idea thatwe're born with this personality
and we don't really choose it.
And you you often see this in alarge family of brothers or
sisters, they're all unique anddifferent.
Right.
You would hope upbringing wouldhave some positive influence.
I guess if you have parents whoencourage you to be grateful and
(07:17):
appreciate, and they offervaluable life lessons, and then
maybe life experience also playsinto it.
But yeah, we seem to be bornwith this personality, which is
sort of the foundation of who webecome, how we interact with
others, and maybe our level ofappreciation.
But I think also living abroadfor me, living in Japan for 10
(07:41):
years really exposed me todifferent mindset, different way
of thinking, also seeingJapanese have so much of their
culture is about appreciation tothe point of kimarimong set
expressions and the deepmeaning, like something like
Itarikimasu.
I just thought it meant oh I'mreceiving food, but then later I
(08:03):
understood it had this meaningof I'm receiving life, something
has died, and it will sustain meas I eat it.
We don't have those kind of setexpressions in Australia.
So I think it's a combination,but it maybe it starts with your
personality and your willingnessto learn and be open to
(08:26):
different cultures.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
What you have just said is quite interesting for me
because in my book I try toconnect stoicism with modern and
contemporary science.
So I think this appreciation ofthe fact that you are receiving
food, this food, as a result ofsome creatures living died for
(08:48):
it.
That's empathy, that'scompassion, but also it's a
scientific way of seeing thingsthat they really are.
We can sometimes be delusional.
Some kids might have thisdelusion that foods are on the
shelves of supermarkets, and ifyou go there, they are there for
(09:11):
you, prepared.
Some people do have thatattitude.
As you said, in Japan we sayitadakimasu, which means I'm
receiving this food, and that'sappreciation of the fact that we
are all connected in the world.
I am connected to you in someway or other.
We have had some beer, well,actually a lot of beer.
(09:32):
So we are connected.
Recently, I came across thisreally interesting idea about
brain gut access.
And some research in CentralAmerica has shown that if you
associate with people, you startto share the gut microbiota with
other people.
So the more you associate withpeople, you shake hands, you
(09:54):
hug, and sometimes even youmight kiss each other.
Those interactions actually yourmicrobiota shared.
So that's a really fascinatingidea.
I think all these spiritualdimensions of Itatakimasu or uh
Ikigai or Toicism, I think theyhave scientific foundations
(10:19):
which we really need toappreciate.
SPEAKER_02 (10:23):
Well, it is a fascinating, I don't know what
you call it, philosophy of wayof living.
But what's interesting is theetymology of the word.
So you want to touch on what theword stoic or stoicism means and
comes from?
Stoicism comes from stoic thepainted roof.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
One of the things that I kind of stressed in this
book is that stoicism is not acult of personality.
Nowadays, people kind ofworship, they have the tendency
to worship a particular person.
Like in entertainment, forexample, you might worship
Taylor Swift, which I think isjustified.
But entertainment is somethingbigger than a particular
individual.
(11:02):
Bruno Mars or Taylor Swift orMadonna.
So the case of philosophy, forexample, if there's a founder of
a school of philosophy like Kantor Herger, some people tend to
worship these people.
But Stoicism, although arguably,as I said, Socrates is probably
the father of Stoicism, it's notassociated with the name of a
(11:23):
particular individual, which Ithink is really great.
You know, important concepts arebigger than a particular
individual.
So Ikigai is bigger than me oryou combined.
So Ikigai is something biggerthan a particular person.
The same can be said aboutstoicism.
(11:43):
Stoicism is something biggerthan a particular person.
That's I think that's veryimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
I think it's important.
I mean, it comes without theburden of, I guess, religion.
So there's no feelings of guiltor having to follow some
doctrines or be a certain havecertain beliefs.
You can sort of study Stoicismand relate it to your life.
But the concept also has manyinterpretations, or it kind of
(12:10):
has this image that you touch onin the book, but you relate
Stoicism to so many things aboutlife.
So it's a fascinatingeye-opening read.
And one thing I really thoughtuh would be helpful is the first
step to becoming a stoic thatyou share is to never expect
(12:32):
certain behavior from anyone.
You share the idea if yourexpectations are low, you can
enjoy the sunshine more, which Ireally believe in.
So you want to touch on that abit more?
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
As you wrong, as you live in this life, you expect
less and less from other people.
For example, when you are datingsomebody, when you are a
teenager, you expect so muchfrom your date.
Sometimes you want her to bekind, understanding.
But that doesn't happentypically.
So then you are really upset andyou're not happy.
(13:07):
But that's all your fault.
And because nobody owes you adate.
I mean, you know, even in workplaces, your boss doesn't have
the obligation to behave as youexpect, and your parents also,
your family members.
And so again, I framed stoicismas a way of life in alignment
(13:29):
with laws of nature.
So laws of nature tells you thatother people don't behave in
ways that you would like them tobehave.
That's science.
I have been watching how youlead the Iki tribe, and you are
always kind and generous, andyou're not a bossy, you're
(13:50):
really natural, relaxed, and sothat's stoic, that's very stoic,
you know, according to mydefense.
You don't expect too much fromother people.
All right?
SPEAKER_02 (14:00):
No, no.
I mean, I like this idea,stoicism allows you just to
really be yourself, of course,to like the work you do, you
know, growing a business, yeah,it's quite hard and challenging,
but you you definitely need thesupport of others.
So I guess when you're seekingthe support of others, like when
I asked you to first do thepodcast, obviously I'm gonna do
(14:22):
that with kindness andgratitude.
And then when that's genuine, Iguess you reciprocate and and
now we have this friendship andconnection.
But yeah, if I was demandingembossy, it probably wouldn't
look too good for you, and wewouldn't have this friendship.
So I I think, yeah, stoicism'shas this image that you're kind
of alone and isolated with yourthoughts, and you're thinking
(14:44):
I've got to be this strongperson resilient.
But stoicism comes frominteractions with others, uh
relationships, understandingpeople, and you know, obviously
developing resilience, but alsounderstanding I have
expectations.
These are my expectations, and Ishould manage them rather than
(15:06):
thinking people owe me or peopleshould do this for me.
So I think that obviously comeswith life experience as we
become to understand the ways ofrelationships, and obviously,
even like the laws of nature.
You really go broad on this ideaof stoicism.
You you even tie it to Ikigai,stating that Ikigai provides the
(15:28):
feeling that what you are doingaligns with your perception of
yourself and how you want torelate to others and to society
at large.
And that resonated with mebecause that's how I want to
live my life.
I want to be in alignment withpeople and the work that I do.
Really, it's self-referential,and ikiguy is your life.
(15:51):
Do you want to touch on therelationship between Ikigai and
Stoicism a bit more?
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
I think Ikigai is about conversation.
Actually, I went to Germany inAugust to meet my editor of
Dumont.
This is the Dumont version ofIkigai, and I'm really grateful
for the fact that this bookbecame the number one bestseller
in nonfiction.
And I went to the bookshops inGermany, and my books were
everywhere.
(16:18):
They were selling better thanHaruki, so I was surprised.
But probably we share the samefeeling here.
We have just started tounderstand ikigai, its broad
implications.
And as we have been discussing,I think alignment is one of the
key concepts to come to agenuine understanding of Ikigai.
(16:41):
We need to live in accordancewith what nature has for us, or
what human society has for it.
And Ikigai is actuallyunderstanding of life's
alignment with greater things.
I think that's very Japanese.
You know, we have grand smalltournament now in London
happening today.
Small wrestlers, they neverboast.
(17:04):
As you know, even if they win,they never boast out of respect
for your opponent because youropponent wants to win as well.
So you never show joy on thesmall ring.
That's a very beautifulexpression of the fact that we
live together and nobody is anisland.
(17:28):
All this scientific realizationthat we are social animals and
no one is that special.
You think you are special, butno one is that special in the
society.
Everybody is a piece of thegreater picture.
All these things, I think that'svery much related to Ikigai and
also Stoicism.
So I think alignment is aligningyourself with greater things in
(17:53):
the universe.
I think that's the key commonthread, if you like, these
important concepts.
Ikigai is very Japanese, butstoicism is arguably very
Western, the very European,Greek, Roman.
So combining Ikigai andStoicism, I think, is a really
great way to meet between theEast and West.
(18:15):
And that's what you're doing.
Nick, you have been doing reallywonderful work of that.
Yeah, many, many, many things tobe explored from here, I think.
You know.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
Well, it is true.
I mean, I I think I've onlyscratched the surface when it
comes to learning about Ikigaithat there's so many more
conversations to have and somany more books to read.
So many people are writingresearch papers on it now, so
that the body of work on Ikigaiitself is growing, and this is
connecting me to more Japaneseand non-Japanese.
(18:46):
Talk about this.
And I think that's almost yes,you said that's like a stoic
process of conversing, learning,sharing, and every time you have
a conversation, you kind ofbecome a slightly fuller or
different person because youhave this wisdom, you have this
experience.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
What's what's decision like in Australia?
How do Australian people embraceIki or Stoicism?
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
Well, I guess we would embrace it with a fairly
lay-back attitude.
Depends what kind of Australianyou're talking about.
We have these Australians whoare very direct, don't mind
dropping F-bombs, have strongbeliefs about this and that.
But then we're also amulticulture now, so we're quite
open to other cultures andlearning.
(19:35):
I think our cult ofpersonalities are sports.
You know, we love our sport.
So we we just had our grandfinal for both rugby and AFL.
Now we'll move into cricket.
We love that, and so we probablyexperienced stoicism through
sport, through getting so closeto winning, yet losing, or
(20:00):
suffering, you know, my team'sjust suffered another horrible
year.
We haven't made the finals for20 years.
Our captain wanted to tradehimself to another team.
So things are really bad for myteam, but I still love my team,
and I still support and hopethat we'll get back to winning.
(20:21):
So even following your team isthis form of having stoicism
because you have to endure allthe bad times, all the
frustrations, and believe thatit's still worth your time
caring about a team.
I mean, you talk about this, theidea of there's limitations, but
we can also be audacious in whatwe do or what we pursue, but we
(20:45):
also have to realize ourlimitations.
So I think that's true insupporting a team.
Like you want your team to win,but you also must understand
most of the times they're gonnalose.
And so you have to accept thatimbalance or balance.
Because if you don't, you'realways gonna be angry or
unhappy.
SPEAKER_01 (21:04):
This I think is a very interesting point that
you're raising because I go tobaseball because I love
baseball.
Shouhe Otani is now playing inLos Angeles Doggers, and
probably baseball is not thatbig in Australia, but it's big
in Japan as well as in theStates.
When I go to a baseball match,baseball game, I don't actually
(21:28):
root for a particular team.
I just watch the players dotheir best, performing.
Sohee Otani pitching.
He pitches already as bad, sothat he's a really great,
amazing person.
Sometimes he succeeds, hits ahome run, but sometimes he just
thinks out.
(21:48):
And it doesn't really matterbecause I know Sohee Otani is
doing his best.
So I really love to watch peopledoing their best.
(22:27):
Japan actually won againstBrazil for the first time ever
in now much international matcha few years ago in Tokyo.
That was a big headline, youknow, all over Japan.
You know, Japan wins overBrazil.
But I don't really care too muchabout it.
(23:04):
That's really beautiful towatch, and that's very stoic.
I mean, so I don't care too muchabout wins or loses.
The fact that you have done bestthat the fact that some people
are doing their best and you'rewatching it, you are sharing
that moment.
I think that's all that isimportant.
How how do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_02 (23:23):
Yeah, that's interesting.
I was gonna ask, do you thinkthat's a quality of you?
You've had a pretty unique life,and I think from a young age,
yeah, I think you were readingmeditations when you were 15,
and you're a neuroscientist, youtravel the world, you speak
multiple languages, and you'reobviously quite stoic.
(23:44):
But I also know Japanese ingeneral kind of have more
appreciation for both.
Whereas if I took you to a footymatch can here in Australia,
you'd see a lot of ugliness,you'd see a lot of swearing and
people getting angry and yellingat the umpire and abuse, and
then you'd see lots of happypeople only because obviously
(24:06):
they've won.
I think it's beautiful that youcan see the bigger picture.
Is that a result of being stoic?
You see the bigger picture.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
Yeah, this is interesting, isn't it?
I mean, um in the samurai era,of course, it was a life or
death battle.
But if you read Japaneseclassics, uh it's always about
the losing side as well as thewinning side.
For example, the most famouscase is the tale of Heike, it
(24:36):
describes a really great battlebetween Heike and Genji crowns.
Um Genji crown, so they dominateJapan.
But the story is about the Heikepeople, you know, how they lose
and how they weep and how theyfeel sad, and all these literary
(24:59):
uh descriptions of the losingside.
It's actually one of the mostfamous tales in Japan.
So it's quite interesting.
Probably it's in the Japaneseculture to see the winning side
and losing side on the equalfooting, and sometimes that's
even sympathizing with thelosing side.
And I think that's quite inmanga and anime as well.
SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
But I think there's this more compassionate
awareness in Japan and more thisidea of doing the right thing.
I know out of consideration forothers, Japanese won't even
share their good news.
Whereas in the West, we havethis tendency to want to
celebrate.
I got a new job or I've I'veachieved this, and Japanese
(25:45):
don't tend to do that.
Yeah, that's quite interesting.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I began to appreciate thata lot when I lived in Japan.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Yeah, because that's interesting because you know, I
think in Japan, uh, if youbecome quite successful, uh you
don't show it because otherpeople are not successful.
That's a really interestingobservation.
I didn't realize that becauseit's something that is so
natural of here, but as youmentioned it, yeah, that's also
(26:16):
really true.
So we don't know, typically knowwho's got uh pay rise or you
know who's got promoted, exceptfor very close friends, because
people do not broadcast it.
Yeah, it's quite an interestingobservation.
Do you your celebrations bigtime in Australia?
SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
Me personally, not really, but I'll share with
family or my brother, but I meanwe we have something similar, I
think you know, Ken, uh tallpoppy syndrome.
Once someone becomes quitefamous or successful, if they
become too famous or successful,like a tall poppy, we want to
(26:57):
kind of cut them down and bringthem back to earth.
It's an Australian saying.
So tall poppy syndrome.
We kind of celebrate wins andvictory, so we're not like
Japan.
Maybe we're in the middle ofJapan and let's say somewhere
like America, where we don'twant to overly celebrate
ourselves, and we don't like tosee that in other people.
So we like to some degree to seepeople be humble, and it's true
(27:21):
when you see the captain of ateam being interviewed, and even
if he's played the best game ofhis life and he gets
complimented, he'll say, Oh no,it was a great team effort
today, and and the other teamdid really well, which I think
is a universal thing.
But we have this awareness too: like if you get too famous or (27:37):
undefined
too well known, or you regardyourself too highly, then
Australians will start to thinkyou're a bit of a dickhead.
We'll say something like that,uh, he's a dickhead now.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
In my book, um you know, I have this quote, uh
oops, a rice ear hangs his head,it's head low as it ripens.
So this image of the rice head,kind of buoyant, keep it low
profile, that's a reallyimportant aspect of the culture.
(28:14):
So, yeah, that's quiteinteresting, and you know the
same goes for Instagram.
Of course, some uh Japanesepeople show really showy photos
on their Instagram, buttypically a Japanese person
doesn't want to show how happyhe or she is, what a gorgeous
(28:34):
time they are having.
That's not in our culture.
I mean, that's perceived asAmerican.
Uh I don't know if that'scorrect or not.
Um you know, celebrity people ona big yacht and drinking
champagne, and that's not us.
You know, some Japanese peopleare infected by that virus and
(28:56):
they do that, but that's not us.
So that's quite quite aninteresting observation,
actually.
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (29:04):
That is a beautiful image of that idea that once um
a rice stalk starts the grainsstart to form, it's almost
bowing, and Japanese see that asa way, another symbol of being
grateful for abundance.
So you you've obviously readMeditations by Marcus Aurelius.
I'm wondering, did you read thatin Japanese?
SPEAKER_01 (29:27):
Yeah, obviously, when I was a teenager, I did
read it in uh Japanese, but whenI was uh university student
also, um of course I read it inEnglish.
I wish I could have read it inLatin, but I haven't.
Yeah.
Marx Aurelius.
Uh so for some reasons, uh MarxAurelius was always liked by
(29:51):
Japanese people because of theemperor's humility, sense of
humility.
That resonates with the Japaneseuh split, I think.
So and did you know MiyakoKamiya translated the work?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
So Miyako Kamiya, you identifiedher as a mother of Ikigai, and
that's totally justified.
(30:12):
She's a really wonderful person.
So, do you have any comment onthat?
I'm just curious, as somebodywho is very well read, Miyako
Kamiya.
So, do you have any comment onthat?
SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
I'm just amazed at how much she accomplished.
But how much she followed herown icky guy?
So she had a love of languages.
She learned French living inGeneva, I think, from late
childhood to early teens.
She learned studied English,classical Greek.
Then she wanted to studymedicine, and then she formed
(30:47):
this compassion or affinity withlepers, and then wanted to
understand them.
And then that obviously led herto uncovering, yeah, what is
Ikigai.
So she was constantly learningand researching, and she
achieved so much.
She was even a tutor to theformer Empress of Japan.
(31:08):
She was an interpreter for theTokyo War Crimes trial.
So she has like this incredibleCV that is almost impossible to
believe.
A woman living in that time,40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, highly
unlikely for someone to be soprolific.
And she wrote many books.
She deserves as much recognitionas some of her male
(31:29):
contemporaries, but she doesn'tget it at least worldwide.
She doesn't appear to be evenwell known now in Japan.
SPEAKER_01 (31:37):
She is actually well, at least among us, but you
know, not among the generalpublic.
She's not probably a householdname, if you mention.
So yeah, that's totally true.
But as you mentioned, uh, thefact that Miko Kamiya translated
Mark Sauridius is veryimportant, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
She was quite stoic herself.
She had a lot of health issues,suffered a lot of loss in her
life, yet also had thisincredible desire to express
herself through writing.
She was quite successful, yeah.
She was a professor, apsychiatrist.
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
And also she was a best-selling author.
SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Yeah, but very humble person.
So, Ken, something I'd love toshare with you one day or one
evening would be Kaiseki.
And you talk about kaiseki inyour book, and you even relate
it to Stoicism.
So maybe a lot of our listenerswould not know what kaiseki is.
So you want to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
It's very expensive.
They come in great varieties andthey tend to be very expensive.
But you must remember that theingredients themselves are taken
from nature.
It's not like the Frenchcuisine, you know, where the
chef kind of imposes his or herown interpretation of how food
(33:01):
should taste.
So whatever the ingredient is inFrench cuisine, especially the
traditional French cuisine, theytend to kind of brush over the
natural ingredients with thesauce.
But in Japanese cuisine, kaiseki cuisine, you know,
everything is so natural.
The seasonings are minimum, somesalt, soy sauce, uh peppers, but
(33:26):
it's always minimum.
And so these cookings are veryminimal.
They taste really great, but thetaste is the taste of the
ingredients themselves takenfrom nature, nature's gift to
humans.
So that's the spirit of kaiseki,and that's I think very stoic
(33:48):
because, as I said, stoicism isabout living in alignment with
nature, right?
So some people might say thatkai seek is very luxurious.
Well, it is luxurious in termsof price, but in terms of
spirit, it's very stoic.
SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Actually, my my father-in-law treated me and my
wife to kaiseki before we weremarried when I first went to
visit the family.
And yeah, it was amazing.
It was like 13, 15 courses orsomething, and very small.
And you're right, it wasbringing really just the essence
of the taste out.
I remember I never liked uni,and then when I had uni at this
(34:26):
kaiseki, I loved it.
It was so delicious.
So I think you're right.
There is a stoic process inpreparing the food.
Maybe there's even restraint andthis focus on I'm not
influencing the flavor of thefood, I'm just drawing out the
flavor of the food from nature.
Yeah, it's quite an experience.
So if you get to have kaiseki inJapan, I recommend it.
(34:47):
So at the start of your book,you have mentioned that seeing a
butterfly is like your littleicky guy, something you observe
and really appreciate, andconnects you back to your
childhood and you something youstudied.
But qualia, you write, is yourmain icky guy, one of your
purpose-driven icky guys.
(35:08):
So, do you want to touch on whatqualia is and how are you trying
to solve the puzzle of qualia?
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Yeah, I have been kind of razy in that.
Not because I have not beenmaking efforts, but
consciousness studies I think isreally difficult.
But you know, I can say thatthose people who claim they have
a theory of consciousness areall wrong.
I am really interested in how wecan solve quarry.
(35:38):
Quaria is a redness of red andcoolness of water and smell of
meat.
I think this is going to be themost significant work, not
Ikivali or not Stoicism, becausethis is very original.
Yeah, and 30 years have fast,almost 30 years, but there's
(36:01):
nothing equivalent to this book,I think, in the literature now.
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
But I mean you're also quite prolific, Ken.
You're constantly writing books,you're you're traveling, you're
delivering lectures, you haveyour podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
I I'm a disrupted person, it's always disrupted.
SPEAKER_02 (36:18):
How how do you manage your time, Nick?
I just keep going with the nextstep.
I think you talk about thatinfinity, like infinity is just
following the next step.
So you talk about two types ofinfinity in your book, and one
seems impossible for us tounderstand, but we can
understand another type ofinfinity just by the next step.
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
As I said, this is Isotope who made this
distinction.
Actually, infinity we can neverunderstand because we are mortal
humans.
But the potential infinity, asyou said, is about the next
step.
So as long as you have a nextstep, you have access to
potential infinity.
(37:01):
So that's all we can hope toachieve in our life to handle
potential infinity.
SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
Yeah, so that's how I manage my time.
But another interesting idea youpresent, which contradicts, I
guess, this uh image we have ofStoics, is we think they're not
creative.
We think they're reading oldbooks or just making plain
decisions or doing things thehard way.
But you really say stoics arecreative, and that every stoic
is creative or should be.
(37:31):
So do you want to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01 (37:33):
Creativity is about finding the truth, what makes us
possible, you know, makes lifepossible.
For example, Albert Einstein wasa very stoic person, Johann
Sebastian Bach.
He was a stoic.
So, you know, every greatcreator, I think, was a stoic.
Because creativity is aboutfinding truth about ourselves
(37:57):
and the world.
So the question is, where doesit come, this misunderstanding
of stoic people not creative?
I think that's an interestingissue.
For example, you if you look atthe film Amadeus, Mozart is
portrayed as a really frivolousperson.
But on the other hand, Mozart,of course, was a stoic, right?
(38:22):
Because he wrote so manybeautiful music and this music
followed some roads of melodyand rhythm and harmony.
I think there's an image problemof stoicism, you know, stoic
people.
But you should also realize thatMozart was a stoic person as
well.
SPEAKER_02 (38:42):
I think this leads to something that really
resonated with me (38:45):
desirable difficulties.
And from that, we can becreative, we grow, we learn, we
get closer to the person we wantto be.
So we should embrace desirabledifficulties because they bring
out our true self or the best inus.
SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
When you have two roles before you, and one road
is an easy road, and the otherway is a difficult road, if you
can choose a difficult road,because that's when you become
really creative.
I have this fascination aboutthe history of human evolution.
(39:24):
We were born in Africa, and outof Africa we spread all over the
globe.
So in that process, ourancestors crossed over to, for
example, Australia.
In that process, our ancestorscrossed over the ocean.
So, you know, just imagine youare facing an ocean and you
(39:49):
don't know if there will beIreland or Land or whatever.
So when you migrate, at leastthere need to be maybe 10, 20
people, females, males,otherwise you cannot start a
population once you get toAustralia.
So that's amazing, isn't it?
So that that's a reallydifficult road to be taken.
(40:12):
But if our ancestors didn't takethat road, we wouldn't be in
Australia or South Africa, SouthAmerica.
So there are times when youreally need to do that.
I mean, to take the difficultroad.
That comes in when you wroteyour first book, Ikigai Gang,
that was a difficult decision,wasn't it?
(40:34):
But without that book, youwouldn't be here, right?
SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Yeah.
You're right.
I mean, I I didn't do well atschool.
I struggled.
I really struggled with writingand spelling.
So I've always had a verynegative relationship with
writing and and lack ofself-belief.
But yeah, Ikigai was soimportant to me.
I thought I need to expressmyself.
I can do it through podcasts, Ican do it for conversations, I
(40:59):
can do it for videos, but itfelt the book was the next step,
you know, the right thing to do.
And I'm writing another booknow.
So you overcome these falsebeliefs or challenges.
But I think your book, Ken, Ithink Facus Dog's really timely
because our lives have radicallychanged.
Let's say for most people now inthe last five years with AI, the
(41:22):
uptake of ChatGPT wasincredible.
Like most people are usingChatGPT every day now.
There's all this anxiety aboutthe future, there's obviously
positive aspects, but you talkabout AI alignment, and there's
obviously icky guy risks,there's even possible
extinction.
So, how does the stoic piecehelp us with all this
(41:47):
uncertainty and fear as ourlives are radically changing?
And there's also this fear we'renot going to be thinking for
ourselves.
SPEAKER_01 (41:58):
In my book, I wrote about Kazoo Ishiguro, the
novelist, and he his works areall about stoicism.
The most famous one is Remainsof the Day, where the butler
Stevens hides his love for hiscolleague, and that's very
(42:18):
stoic.
But also Kazoo Ishiguro writesabout artificial intelligence in
his novel Clara and the sun, andwhere the artificial friend
tries to be kind to her humanfriend, and you know that's kind
of artificial stoicism.
So we should really study how wecan build AI that would behave
(42:40):
like a stoic, you know,restraining their ability,
restraining their behavior.
That's a really important fieldof research.
Many people have been discussingso many things about it, and
people don't have an answer yet.
The Nobel Prize-winningmathematician, uh Jeffrey
Hinton, who is sometimes calledthe father of artificial
(43:04):
intelligence, he says he doesn'thave any idea how he can do
that.
So some people are really,really pessimistic about the
future of AI.
We might actually become extinctbecause of AI.
That's the argument of somepeople.
So we really need to studystoicism seriously.
(43:24):
How we can make artificialintelligence systems that would
align with humans and also thatalign with the laws of nature.
I think that's a very urgenttopic, uh actually.
SPEAKER_02 (43:36):
You actually mentioned we we might be moving
from cult of personality, wherewe're fixated on people, cult
leaders, or rock stars, or uhinfluencers, to moving to cult
of statistics.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (43:51):
You want to touch on what that means?
I have written so many thingsthat are interesting to me in my
book, but that might be a hardsell.
I don't know if this book willdo well.
My book takes time to kind ofspread.
So I have written so manyinteresting things.
(44:12):
Interesting to me, notnecessarily interesting to the
general public, so I'm not sure,but anyway, cluster statistics,
yeah.
Artificial intelligence systems,they obey statistical learning
algorithms.
If you take ChatGPT, as youknow, no single author counts.
Whether it's Shakespeare, KasoIshigar, or any great writers,
(44:38):
they are just bits of data inthe great ocean of collective
human writings.
So no author, however great heor she might be, counts.
That's a count of statistics.
So we are just data.
You know, hey you, Nick, you arejust data.
(44:58):
I'm also just a piece of data,right?
Whatever we write about IKI,it's just a really tiny part of
what has been written already.
So we don't count, we don'tcount, Nick, for AI.
This is true.
SPEAKER_02 (45:15):
This is why you say we are all equally unimportant.
So I think I found your bookeye-opening.
So if I'm recommending it,saying this will surprise you
because initially some ideas youkind of think, oh, is that
stoic?
And then you realize, oh,actually, it is.
So it's very eye-opening, and II recommend it.
(45:39):
So if you want a new perspectiveor a broader perspective on
stoicism, obviously I recommendyour your book, Ken.
And it's kind of refreshing,actually.
SPEAKER_01 (45:48):
I recommend uh Nick Kemp's uh Ikigai Khan.
Also, uh his new book, upcomingbook.
Where is it coming out?
SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Um that'll come out December, so a year of Ikigai.
That was challenging because Ihad to do like a daily entry and
I couldn't expand on ideas.
So I found that verychallenging, and I had to sort
of come up with 365 ideas ofexpressing Ikigai.
But of course, Ken, you get amention in my book.
(46:19):
So thank you for your quote.
So you recommend becomingsomeone's Plato, yes?
SPEAKER_01 (46:26):
Yeah.
Maybe your father's Prat or yourmother's Prator.
I like this idea that somebody'safterlife is in the memory of
people who remember them.
So typically an afterlife iswhen you go to heaven and you
have a wonderful afterlife.
(46:47):
But I I don't believe in that inthat.
Uh I believe that somebody'safterlife is how we remember
these people.
So if your dad was a greatperson, you can remember and
write about him.
Or you your granddad, yourgrandmother, or somebody you
knew, you had the privilege toknow.
(47:10):
Socrales didn't write anythingabout himself, but Plato
remembered him.
So what we read about Socratesis actually an afterlife of
Socrates, as remembered by andyou know written by Prado.
So you should be somebody'sPrado, Nick.
(47:31):
Maybe I'm uh a Plato forJapanese culture or something.
Yeah, I really appreciate youfor that, and you are so
genuine.
I should be saying this, butthis Venn diagram of Ikigai so
misrepresents the core conceptof Ikigai, so I'm not so happy
with it.
So, you know, it's not ikigai,it's purpose.
(47:53):
I mean, what you have, that'scertainly ikigai.
But what you are paid for, whatthe society needs, and what you
are good at, these threeelements are totally irrelevant
for ikigai from my perspectiveand from the perspective of
Japanese culture.
So maybe you can have yourikigai in drawing, making
(48:17):
paintings, and you might not begood at it, but that's totally
okay.
You might love making music, andsociety might not need it, but
that's totally okay.
You might actually love watchingbutterflies fly, that's me, you
(48:38):
know, but you are not paid forit, right?
And you don't get received anymoney for it.
That's totally okay.
So this famous uh Venn diagram,that's a Western
misrepresentation of what Ikigaiis actually is.
So I'm really grateful.
It's really great that somebodyfrom outside Japan have a
(49:01):
genuine understanding of Ikigai.
Thank you.
I'm not saying that these Venndiagrams have not been helpful.
You know, I I really gratefulfor these Venn diagrams for
spreading the interest aboutikigai.
But once people get interestedin Ikigai, I hope people will
(49:23):
come to a genuine understandingof what the original philosophy
was.
That's my hope too.
Yeah, what Mirko Kamiya writesabout ikigai.
Well, I mean it's nothing aboutnothing that has nothing to do
with what you're paid for orwhat the society is or what
you're good at.
(49:43):
You know, these are all rubbish.
SPEAKER_02 (49:46):
Uh thanks for sharing that.
I agree with you, Kenneth.
It used to frustrate me.
I thought everything aboutIkigai is factually incorrect or
romanticized.
People think it's the secret tohappiness or the secret to
longevity.
So yeah, it came out of a lovefor Japan, a love for Japanese
culture, and this sort offrustration that it was being
misrepresented.
(50:06):
But I mean, this is my Ikigai,having conversations with
people, getting to know people,this sort of emotional intimacy.
And I really appreciate all thatyou've done for me and our
friendship.
So I'm looking forward to havingmaybe some beer and kaiseki.
SPEAKER_01 (50:23):
Yeah, you really deserve uh applause.
SPEAKER_02 (50:27):
Thank you, Ken.
But congratulations on your newbook.
So Think Like a Stoic TheAncient Path to a Life Well
Lived.
I highly recommend it.
Very insightful.
It will challenge your ideasabout stoicism, which is a good
thing.
So thanks so much for spendingtime with me today, Ken.
Thank you, Nick.
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