February 23, 2025 • 61 mins
What gives you energy? What is the spark that lights your fire?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Katie Sandoe to explore how ikigai can inspire and energize people, helping them rediscover passion and purpose.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And what Ikigai does is give you the opportunity to
pause and consider in thesedifferent areas of my life.
Where do I find joy?
Where do I find fulfillment?
Where do I find purpose?
And guess what?
Americans and Westerners.
It doesn't have to be in thesebig, huge stuff.
It can be in the small thingsthat give you great joy, that
(00:24):
people might otherwise laugh at.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
At ikigaitribecom, my guesttoday on the Ikigai podcast is
Dr Katie Sando, a sparkologist.
Katie is a keynote speaker,entrepreneur, educator, ikigai
Tribe coach and spark typeadvisor.
Katie, you have a master's incommunications and a doctorate
(01:05):
in adult learning and are aprofessor in communications and
adult learning, and you haveextensive experience in various
industries and business settings.
For nearly 25 years, you'veprovided strategic
communications and executiveleadership to numerous
organizations in such placessuch as equitable housing,
marketing and advertising, andeven in recycling and solid
(01:27):
waste management.
So that's all very interesting.
More importantly, katie, youbelieve that we're all created
for a purpose, and yours is tospark the flame of purpose in
others and to help women liveinto their limitless potential.
With that, welcome to thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Nick, my mate, my friend, my Aussie connection.
It is a great gift to be herein ShareSpace and talk all
things Iggy Guy with you.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Likewise, it's good to reciprocate.
I was on your podcast, so gladyou're on mine.
Yeah, let's start with yourbackground.
What would you like to sharewith our listeners?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
You touched upon it in my bio, but if I were to
describe what is most importantto me like, this could be
engraved on my gravestone it'sthat I want nothing more than
for people to know that theymatter and their lives have a
purpose, and that infuses allaspects of my life, whether
(02:35):
that's just how I show up withmy friends, my family, my
neighbors, the barista at thecoffee shop, the work that I do,
it just infuses all aspectsabout me.
So that's like the existentialpart, and then your listeners
will find out very quickly I'mboth a doctor and a dork.
Like you're going to get thevery intellectual, cerebral,
intense, existential Katie, andthen you're also going to get
(02:56):
the comedian.
And so the other labels that Ilike to attribute to myself is I
am an educator.
I'm a lifelong learner.
I love nothing more than toteach and facilitate moments of
learning and discovery.
I do have my own consultingcompany and I'm a podcast host.
But most importantly, nick, I'ma taco lover.
(03:17):
I love street tacos.
They are my life.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Really.
I don't think I've ever hadstreet tacos, so one day you'll
have to treat me.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You are missing out and it's not a joke, y'all Like.
My license plate on my car saystaco lover.
It's a legit thing, wow.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, that sounds like a little source of ikigai,
but you touched on helpingpeople feel needed, or hoping
that people feel needed and alsothat people have a sense of
purpose, and that's very muchrelated to what we're going to
talk about today, among otherthings, ikigai.
So you did take my Ikigai tribecertification and we actually
(03:59):
did it one-on-one, which isquite a unique experience.
So I think that's sort of thereason why we get on like a
house on fire.
We're good mates now, and Isoon realized how much you love
to invest in learning becauseyou are so knowledgeable in so
many things.
I was a bit overwhelmed, likeyou just seem to know everything
.
So where does this thirst forknowledge come from?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
So I'll answer that two ways.
One is I have always been thewhy kid.
So for those of you who areparents or you work with kids or
you're around kids, there isthis curiosity that kids have
where they want to know why, whydoes something work this way?
Why do we need to do it thisway?
(04:42):
Why you tell me I need to wearthis, why?
And I have always been that whykid?
And I have carried thatcuriosity with me even now, well
into my adulthood, where I'malways wanting to know the why
behind something and, inparticular, my why is around
human thinking and behavior, why?
(05:03):
do people think, the way they doact, the way they do talk, the
way they do perceive the world,and that has driven me to want
to discover all of thesedifferent elements.
So I am the why kid is how Isay it.
I was the kid where I asked myparents why the sky was blue.
(05:23):
They gave me an answer, and Iwould want five more answers,
and so that very much describeswho I am.
So I believe it's justinstinctive into who I am.
I am intrinsically motivated tolearn, and, as that relates to
the work that I do, I am verymuch driven to want to learn
something new, a new perspective, a new concept, a new way of
(05:46):
living, new set of practices, soI can help my clients and I can
help the people that I workwith live better, enjoy their
work better, and so that's whatled me to Ikigai is just
curiosity of asking a lot of whyquestions.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's a wonderful mindset or approach to living or
trait and I think once youstart learning and asking why,
you realize how much there is tolearn and you almost get the
sense of I really do havelimited time on this planet.
Now.
There's so much I could learn.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Do have limited time on this planet now.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
There's so much I could learn, just even within
one culture or even in one fieldor subject.
So asking why is a greatquestion I often ask myself like
why is that?
Why does Japan have theseunique words, or why does Japan
produce these unique culturalpractices, or why do they have
these unique arts?
(06:47):
So that's obviously whatattracted me to Japan.
And then, eventually, ikigai.
But I would say, one of yourIkigai involves young girls and
women, and much of what you donow is about championing girls
and women, so would you like totalk on that please?
I always love to talk aboutchampioning girls and women, so
would you like to talk on thatplease?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I always love to talk about championing women and
girls in life, and you're rightso to use the Ikigai terminology
.
My kokorozashi is to helppeople find purpose in their
work and at work.
Find purpose in their work andat work and diving a bit deeper,
in particular, championingwomen in that process.
(07:28):
And I came to this work.
I reside in the United States.
The culture that I know wellbecause it is my culture, is the
United States, and in mygraduate studies work I was
noticing.
Part of that work was doingresearch around the lack of
(07:51):
representation of women inpolitical leadership in the
United States and seeing thereal disparity at all levels of
political leadership, that therewas a lack of women
representation in that space.
And I came across a study thatforever changed the course of my
life.
It really did.
And this study found that andthis is going to be particular
(08:13):
to Western cultures where whenlittle girls and little boys are
in elementary school and below,they have equal levels of
confidence to lead, they'llraise their hand to be at the
front of the line to answer thequestion, to be president, to be
an astronaut.
And something happens to girlsin middle school around that age
where they stop raising theirhand, and it's one of the
(08:34):
reasons why women have to beasked five times to run for
political office before theywill even consider it, and men
will volunteer.
And so I said I want to be apart of a solution where we get
to those little girls and wechampion them to build their
confidence so they can grow upto be women who change the world
, because their lives havepurpose, and we need everyone to
(08:59):
know that.
When you wake up in the morning, that is a gift and you have
something incredible to do withyour life.
Whatever you feel called to doup in the morning, that is a
gift and you have somethingincredible to do with your life.
Whatever you feel called to doin my goodness, I want you to
have the confidence to do that,and so that has led me in many
different areas, whether it'svolunteering, speaking to
women's groups, leadingworkshops, and I will say that
(09:23):
to champion women and girls isas much building their
confidence and giving them theskillset to thrive as much as it
is needing our men champions,our men advocates to help us, to
give us platform, to empower uswhen we don't have the power to
(09:44):
do so.
So the work that I do aroundchampioning women and girls is
both supporting and championingwomen and developing their skill
set and rallying our menchampions because we need them
too and this is very much a partof my kokorozashi and I will
say, too, the connection toeBashow.
(10:05):
So in my work of championingwomen and girls, I became a part
of a nonprofit organization inthe United States called Girls
on the Run, and this is workingwith girls in elementary school
to help them build social,emotional learning skills to
thrive and my goodness did.
I find really a sense ofbelonging and Ibasho in that
(10:27):
community of like-minded peoplewho were rallying around a cause
and it very much felt like aplace where I belong.
So this is a gift that I haveto really work with women to
live into their full potential.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Love it.
This is what I love about youit's very level-headed but very
ambitious attitude towards ohyeah, how can we empower women?
And you're not making a case tohave an argument about this
unlevel playing field, whichclearly exists.
So you're about empowering mentoo, and you're dropping all
(11:03):
these words.
So it just proves what a greatstudent you are, kokorozashi.
So this personal mission e-basha place to be.
But to go back to the question,why, like?
Why does this happen?
Why do young girls, when theyenter middle school, suddenly
feel that they can't put theirhand up?
It's obviously some sort ofsocial conditioning.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So when you look at the research on confidence, and
specifically confidence aroundwomen, there are three primary
factors.
One is genetics.
Science shows women areneurobiologically
predispositioned towardsnegative self-talk, that
(11:44):
internal chatter of I'm notenough, I can't do this, the
imposter syndrome.
It has a whole bunch ofdifferent names.
Neurobiologically, women, forwhatever reason, are predisposed
to have more of that.
So that leads us to questionmore of ourselves.
Additionally, from aphysiological perspective, we
joke that girls mature earlierthan boys and I want to be
(12:06):
inclusive for all genders, butI'm primarily speaking in that
regard the science around itthat girls mature earlier than
boys and, it is true, theirprefrontal cortex, which is that
reasoning, that understanding,impact, forward thinking that is
developing about five yearsearlier than boys.
And so what we have seen isthat girls around the middle
(12:27):
school age are becoming moreaware of the social expectations
put upon them.
They are starting to questiontheir worth, their value, their
value in their size, in theirvoice, in what they're
interested in, and they'restarting to pay attention to
these expectations andquestioning and then therefore
questioning themselves.
It's not that this doesn'thappen to boys, it's that it's
(12:49):
happening later.
It typically happens in collegeage and early adulthood in boys
, and so girls are nowexperiencing this
self-calibration much earlierthan boys.
And then you mentioned toothere are the sociocultural
influences, and in the UnitedStates it is a predominantly
(13:09):
patriarchal culture andhistorically has
disproportionately quieted womenand kept them small in voice
and size, and particularly whatwe're talking about in the
public sphere, so in the publicrealm, in work, in politics, in
these community spaces, andthere are still lingering
effects of that and that iscoming together where girls then
(13:32):
are experiencing thesepressures and they're not even
aware of it.
The founder of the Girls on theRun nonprofit organization,
molly Barker she's just amazing,she came up with, coined this
term, girl box that essentially,around the middle school age,
girls get put into a box andthey keep themselves there, not
intentionally.
So this is part of theunlearning and relearning of
(13:54):
what are the differentconditions that are keeping me
to stay small in voice and size.
And this is where I think, inparticular, the perspective and
the concepts in the Ikigai bodyof work can help reframe for
women their perception ofthemselves, what is important to
them, their sense of purpose inlife, the rolefulness that they
(14:16):
have, their sense of community,all of these different elements
.
Ikigai itself is not going tosolve the issue of the girl box,
but within it itself are somewonderful tools to be able to
change the way we think aboutourselves, particularly as women
.
So, to answer your question inshort version, there is both a
physiological component to itnature, right and nurture.
(14:39):
From a sociological perspective, how you're raised, your family
, where, the educationalinstitutions if you have a faith
institution, media, pop culturethese different elements very
much shape how we come tounderstand ourselves as an
individual identity and then aspart of our social identity.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Thank you, I definitely agree.
Women mature far earlier thanboys, or even some men.
I'm probably an example of that.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
At least you admit it , Nick.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I can admit it, I mean it's true.
So that might be the irony.
It's like, oh, women matureearlier than men, yet they have
very little representation inkind of most forms of leadership
.
So this does lead us to onewoman who really broke the mould
in Japan, obviously, a countrywhere, back in the 1960s, to do
(15:38):
what she did was incredibly rare, and it's a source of
inspiration, I think, for bothof us, and this is why I like to
call her the mother of Ikigaiand I like to champion her along
with her work.
She was Japan's researchpioneer, lived this amazing,
(15:59):
unconventional life and, despitegreat success, had a lot of I
guess, what we'd call lack ofikigai in her life as well.
So she had a really interestinglife and produced this amazing
body of work, and her name isMihiko Kamiya.
So we studied and discussed herwork together.
What did you find inspiring andhelpful about her work?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So many things and this is why y'all, if you have
not taken Nick's certificationcourse, what are you waiting for
?
Because it's phenomenal.
But I knew I liked Nick fromthe beginning when he introduced
me to the mother of Ikigai andreally attributed the I'm going
to say recent, in the last youknow what 40, 50, 60 years, this
(16:44):
birth of research around Ikigai, and much of it originates with
Miyake Kamiyo, and there's acouple of things that resonated
quite deeply with me personallyin who she was, what I
understood of her through thework that you gave Nick, and one
is that she had this curiosityin her work with lepers Japanese
(17:09):
lepers from a psychologicalstandpoint and from a
psychiatric standpoint, thatotherwise these people could
have every reason to bemiserable.
Their bodies are deformed,they're in pain, they are
isolated on these islands and sothey are social outcasts.
And they had such a vibrancyfor life and felt fulfilled.
(17:33):
And she saw that and thecuriosity around wanting to
capture that and not just from aresearch perspective and not
just from a research perspective, but bring that for everyone in
her writing of the book, and Iam so grateful when someone does
not have the ego of academiathat it's all about the research
(17:56):
, but that she wanted to writethis book and she felt this was
her life.
Calling was to write this book,to be able to put this into the
world.
And in American culture therewas a wonderful adult educator,
christian Lindemann, who saidthat true learning does not
belong within the ivory walls ofacademia, but that really
(18:18):
learning happens when you canbring it out to the people.
And this is what she did, andso right away I just had such
profound respect for her to seethat she wasn't just interested
from a research perspective butreally wanted to capture the
spirit of what she waswitnessing and to bring that to
people.
So that was one thing.
And the other element thatresonated with me about her was
(18:45):
that doing that work is hard andthere are conflicting
priorities in your life.
She was trying to finish herdissertation work and she was
married and she had kids.
And particularly when I'mtalking about champion women and
girls, women can be so oftenconditioned that you need to
(19:07):
prioritize your family, yourchildren, these nurturing
aspects of you and other thingstake a backseat, and I think she
showed through her life now.
It wasn't easy, but she showedthat, yes, my family is
important to me, but, mygoodness, I cannot die, my life
cannot go away until I finishthis thing.
(19:27):
And how beautiful, what abeautiful example and role model
for women to say you can't haveit all, but you can have things
that are really important toyou.
And it doesn't have to be allsituated within the context of
family and these nurturingaspects.
You can want and desiresomething so incredible and feel
(19:49):
such a calling to bring it tolife.
And I just want to pause and Ican say, when I say you can't
have it all, I'm simply sayingthat there is a recent dialogue
that we like to tell women of oh, you can have it all and do it
all, and that, quite frankly, isimpossible.
And I don't want any womenlistening to think that you have
to try and do it all.
(20:09):
And I think Kamiya's life is anexample of that.
I mean, she struggled with alot of things.
She struggled with mentalhealth, she felt really
conflicting priorities, and soshe was living that experience.
But I just was rooting for heras I was living the story of you
know she had a lot ofexpectations from a traditional,
(20:30):
you know, woman in thehousehold and yet she was like
nope, don't take me, lord.
Don't take me until I'vewritten this book.
So those were the things thatreally resonated with me about
her.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It is a fascinating life and I agree with you.
I mean, it was almost as if shewas tracked in academia.
And, yeah, you know this quoteI read from her diary where she
was basically saying my demonsare raging today and I could
almost kill myself how long do Ihave to keep going correcting
(21:03):
English papers of my husband'sstudents?
So she was doing her own sortof academic work and then, yeah,
because she was a linguist, youknow, I guess the husband was
like, hey, honey, could youcheck these papers?
And what I really appreciatedabout her was her honesty, that
at times she realized all thisother work can be done by other
(21:26):
people, even the upbringing ofchildren, and she had this
incredible desire to expressherself and for her it was
through writing this book.
And I think sometimes as aparent, it's like, yeah, man,
I've got to.
I remember having to take Luke,my son, to sport and all these
things, and there were timeslike you do feel, man, I wish I
(21:49):
could focus on what I want to doand I really appreciated her
transparency on that.
Like we all have this desire orhopefully some of us have this
desire to respond to this urge,to what she described as give
expression to yourself.
And she found that, and it wasobviously through writing her
(22:09):
first book.
And despite her success, or herperceived success linguist,
translator, professor, tutoredthe former Empress of Japan was
even an interpreter during theTokyo War crimes trial none of
that really seemed to matter andshe had this desire to research
(22:29):
Ikigai but also improve thelives of the lepers you
mentioned.
She was focused on that as welland she also lived a relatively
short life.
You know she died at the age of65.
She had all these healthproblems, eventually got cancer,
(22:51):
but she was quite prolific too.
So she wrote several bookstowards the end of her life.
And, yeah, she really found herikigai in writing.
So I agree with you.
This idea of you can have it alland do it all.
I mean it's sort of a very, Iguess, american or Western
attitude and it is not true.
I think you can have somethingthat matters, that will allow
(23:12):
you to be, you become the personyou want to be.
But yeah, you've got to find itand you need the space and the
time to find it and nurture itand feel like you're worthy of
it as well.
And maybe that's the struggle.
We might find it, but then weprobably think, oh, I'm not
worthy of this, I'm not goodenough, and maybe you know,
(23:36):
maybe I don't know women feelthat more than men because of
all these reasons you mentionedas to why you know they don't go
into roles of leadership,because of this social
conditioning.
So I hope she is thisinspiration to women to, yeah,
give expression to somethingthat you really care about.
(23:59):
That is essentially your ikigai.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, and I don't know if you would agree or not,
but as you're describing thejournal entry of her
experiencing these demons oflike oh God, if I have to edit
one more paper of my husband's,or you know, this is the example
of when you find your Hatarakiguy work worth doing, that you
come fully alive and to yourpoint, fully expressed.
(24:24):
And when you're doing thingsthat aren't worth it to you,
they can feel maddening and thisis what drain you.
It is soulful exhaustion, and Ithink that is what a lot of
people are experiencing rightnow, particularly in the United
States and in other Westerncultures is they're doing a lot
(24:45):
of things that aren't worth it,but they're doing them because
it will get them something else,maybe more money, maybe the
title, more respect.
I don't know what it isAccumulation of something, of
power, of wealth, of status, andit's not always for ego reasons
, it's just.
This is what we're told you gotto do big things and so it
requires you to do a lot ofstuff that really, when you look
(25:08):
back on your life, it's notworth it.
And so you're describing, likeall of these things that her CV
or her resume would be soimpressive, of who she tutored
and what she published, and toher she's like, yeah, but that
in the end, that's not the workthat is worth doing to me.
This is the work that is worthdoing to me, and so I thought
(25:31):
she also exemplified of thisstruggle that we have of doing
things because we have to.
This is also adulting you haveto do stuff that you don't like,
but ensuring that you'rebringing into your life things
that are worth doing, becausethat is what brings a sense of
joy and fulfillment andworthiness to your life.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned some
people kind of chase all thesethings with great ambition,
thinking it'll provide them withthis life satisfaction or sense
of worthiness.
And then there are other peoplewho just seem to accept the
status quo and this is how lifeis you just work and then you
(26:16):
enjoy weekends and holidays andthen you retire.
But I think both scenariosdon't provide that life worth
living, and life is definitely ajourney of ups and downs.
But yeah, ikigai touches onthis idea of agency and so you
have to define the life you wantand then try and pursue it and
(26:39):
along the way you discover okay,I thought it was this and now I
realize it's not, but then thatguides you to the next step and
then eventually, I guess, youfind what is your ikigai.
So maybe that was the journeyfor Miya Kokamiya, but she did
have this strong connection toboth writing and she did write
(27:02):
about her first experiencerecalling when she first saw
lepers.
And she did write about herfirst experience recalling when
she first saw lepers and she wasinspired by the nurse who was
looking after these lepers at achurch service where she was
playing the organ.
So I think we also have thesemoments in our childhood or
early years, where we have thatfirst taste of ikigai or a sense
(27:23):
of purpose.
Have that first taste of ikigaior a sense of purpose and it's
fascinating how it might takedecades before you go back to it
or before you somehow realiseoh, that was a telling moment
and I'm in a position to exploreit.
So I've got so many questions Icould ask you.
But I love you as a student.
You dropped hatarakigai, sowork worth doing, so nothing
(27:47):
gets past you.
You seem to retain everything.
So, with this approach to life,using Ikigai, what does it
offer people that's unique ordifferent to Western approaches
to coaching and personaldevelopment?
Speaker 1 (28:03):
If you choose it to be, ikigai becomes a framework
to help you refocus on what yougive your time, your talents and
your treasures to, and here'swhat I mean by that,
particularly in Western culture.
We are just inclined we doeverything big.
(28:25):
There's this joke in Texas,which is a state in it's like a
whole other country within theUnited States.
They say everything's bigger inTexas.
Americans just got to doeverything big and apparently we
have to be the first ateverything, and in some respects
that has served us really well.
We've been able to inventawesome things, do incredible
(28:46):
things.
But it also becomes this mantra, as though you have to live
this big life constantly.
That is exhausting and it leadsto a lot of soulful depletion.
And much of the work that isbeing done by experts around
well-being, addressingexhaustion, addressing burnout,
(29:08):
has a lot to do with attendingto the body.
Deep breathing practices, yoga,exercise, meditation, better
diet and all of those things arewonderful, so I am not
disregarding those things.
But what I believe is happeningquite a bit in the United
(29:30):
States and from what I learnedtoo, with globalization it
sounds like it's starting toinfuse in different areas in
major metropolitan areas inJapan is the fact that people
are soulfully exhausted.
And so when you've reached thepoint of overwhelm and
exhaustion and burnout, yes,your body is telling you that
something is wrong, but it's nota body issue.
(29:52):
It's presenting in the body.
I think it's a soul issue.
And when you're examining whatyou're currently giving your
attention to, your focus to it'son all of these things.
Oh, I should do more of this.
Maybe I should do less thanthis.
I'm investing in people who arereally not that's not great
relationships.
There's so much that's out ofmy control that's happening and
(30:15):
all of this is taking yourattention and your energy and
none of that is soul fillingstuff.
It is actually soul-draining.
And what Ikigai does is give youthe opportunity to pause and
consider in these differentareas of my life, where do I
find joy?
Where do I find fulfillment?
(30:36):
Where do I find purpose?
And guess what?
Americans and Westerners?
It doesn't have to be in thesebig huge stuff.
It can be in the small thingsthat give you great joy that
people might otherwise laugh atTo you.
It's really meaningful, nick meevery morning going on a walk
(30:57):
with my dog, my littleAustralian Labradoodle, I know,
going on a walk with him andjust watching his curiosity of
the world and being outside inthe fresh air and that moment,
leaving my cell phone aside,that is such a source of icky
guy for me.
That is where I find you, tori.
(31:18):
Spaciousness of my mind is Iget to go with this little
sentient creature who doesn'tcare at all who I am, what I do,
the title that I have, thislittle furball is just so
enamored with me as a person andI get to go for a walk outside
with him.
That brings me so much joy.
Waking up in the morning whenit's really quiet and it's dark
(31:42):
out, and just sitting at mytable doing some scripture
reading, doing some meditation,drinking my cup of coffee, that
is precious time.
And if you're so focused ondoing the big things, achieving
the big goals, training for thebig thing, you miss out on the
beautiful little things thatcontribute to a meaningful life.
(32:05):
And we know Ikigai alsoincludes the big things.
But in regard to how does ithelp, from a Western perspective
, reframe things?
It elevates for us theimportance of the small things
that we're not giving enoughattention to.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
You've reminded me of a few moments I had this week
with just my son.
My son was looking outside of awindow and he saw this little
bird sort of hopping about inthe garden and he said oh dad,
this bird has ADHD.
It's a joke.
So I go over and we just watchthis little bird jumping about,
(32:43):
frolicking and putting its beakin the dirt or trying to find
maybe a worm, and then it jumpedup to a branch and then another
branch and it was such a nicelittle moment and then we were
just silently watching togetherand then it eventually jumped
over the fence to another treeand I thought, wow, that was
like this little special momentwe'll never have again in the
(33:04):
same way at least.
And I thought, wow, that waslike this little special moment
we'll never have again in thesame way at least.
And then another thing we do isspeaking of birds.
We have, like this toy birdthat's really for my cat, and
we've sort of developed thisregular game of throwing it into
the laundry basket, sort of ata distance.
We kind of have these penaltiesIf you lose, you have to go to
(33:27):
the shop and buy a snack orsomething.
And this is how we play and wedon't plan it.
He'll just sort of walk into myroom when I'm working and go
Dad, let's have a round.
We call them rounds now.
And that's the time where Iseem to really enjoy the day.
I might get a sale of my courseor something and feel great.
But it's these other momentswhere it's related to often,
(33:53):
people or, you know, your dog ora bird that seem to, yeah, give
you that little lift during theday.
And I'm all for goals andambition and I'm a pretty
ambitious person.
But you've got to ask yourselflike, oh, where does this
ambition end?
And it comes with adouble-edged sword because, yeah
(34:13):
, you're using your skills andyou've got this sense of purpose
, but if you overcommit, it canbe health problems or you might
be chasing something that's notreally aligned to what you care
about.
So there is a balance and Ithink you're right.
Ikigai does reframe things soyou can appreciate the small and
that you're living aligned toyour values and that you're not
(34:36):
overstepping, because we haveenough stress in our life as it
is.
Yeah, so I like that idea.
It is in the small, but it doesallow you to pursue ambitious
things that are aligned to yourvalues.
And then there's the irony.
You're right, like even inJapan, there's a huge lack of
(34:59):
ikigai or a lack of ibasho, andI've researched keywords like
Google Trends and ikigai nai oribasho nai, meaning lack of
ikigai or lack of ibasho.
Are these common terms relatedto the concept and maybe that's
the price we pay for capitalism?
(35:20):
Like the goal of capitalism, I,is to want more, sell more,
have more, and it's really hardto, or it seems hard for us to
work out.
Oh, how much is enough?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
So I've been using a metaphor of the fire triangle to
explain to people how Ikigai.
Explain to people how Ikigai,trying to give them an
accessible way, because it'sthis rich, complex, beautiful
body of work that has ancienthistorical significance to the
(35:57):
Japanese culture and alsoacademically, there's so much
that we can learn from it.
And so how do I succinctly givepeople a word picture to
understand what it can do fortheir life?
And I've been using the firetriangle.
And the fire triangle comesfrom the space and industry, of
those who are looking to combatfires and looking to address
(36:20):
that.
And there's three maincomponents that a fire needs in
order to thrive it needs a sparkright, it needs order to thrive
, it needs a spark right.
It needs an ignition source, itneeds a constant source of fuel
and it needs the rightenvironment.
It needs oxygen and those threethings together create the
chemical reaction for which firehappens.
And as I look at Westerncultures, we don't lack spark.
(36:42):
So the big ambition, the goal,the purpose, the thing we're
driving towards our values, likeyeah, we can manifest a lot of
spark in our life and fuel aswell the things that you invest
your time and your talents andyour energy in, whether it's
paid work or not paid work orhobbies or learning.
We can just fill our lives withall of these fuel sources, and
(37:02):
so you can spark the heck out of.
Just fill our lives with all ofthese fuel sources and so you
can spark the heck out of it,and you can have all of this
fuel.
But if your fire doesn't havespace to breathe, it will
suffocate.
And I look at the environmentfor a fire to thrive in this
oxygen, as these concepts inIkigai of community of Ibas Show
(37:23):
a place where you belong, whereyou can be seen, as well as
Utori, spaciousness in my mind,space to be worry-free, space to
be creative, space to just bepresent, and that is what I
think we are so lacking inWestern culture is.
I and some people don't havethis, but I think a lot of
people can find and quicklyaccess what are the things that
(37:46):
motivate them, what are theirvalues, what is their purpose,
what drives them, what are thosebig goals I want to set and
achieve.
Not everybody does it, but Ithink we can easily get to that
and certainly we can fill ourtime with all kinds of stuff
that maybe is even deeplymeaningful.
That is, yari guy, things worthdoing, but if you're not
(38:08):
creating the space for you tobreathe, for your life, to
breathe both relationally, beingaround your people, your
community, your Iba show, andjust having space to be human,
then your fire will burn out.
And so Ikig guy becomes thisreminder.
This is how I've been describingto people.
This is what it does for you tobe on fire about your life,
(38:30):
deeply passionate withoutburning out.
Which are the areas for whichyou want to address where you
feel like your fire is burningout.
Maybe you have all kinds ofcommunity in EBASHO.
Maybe you've got some greatmeditation practices, you've got
spaciousness of mind, butyou're bored, right.
So maybe you need to focus onmore things in your life that
(38:51):
will fuel that fire.
Or maybe you have those twothings and yet you don't have a
big ambition that you're workingfor.
So I've been using that as ametaphor to be able to help
people quickly access andidentify where the areas in
their life.
If you think of your life as afire, do you feel alive?
Do you feel like lit on fire,passionate about your life?
(39:12):
Can you say are you in love withyour life?
Not a part of it?
Not like I love being a mom, orI love being a dog mom, or I
love being a boss, or I lovebeing a dog mom, or I love being
a boss, or I love being afriend, or I love cooking.
No like, do you love all ofyour life?
Are you madly in love with yourlife?
And if you aren't, where arethe areas that you want to tweak
(39:35):
?
And that's where Ikigai givesyou this ability to lean into
the things that really give youdeep meaning and joy and much
like a fire.
You know it's not stagnant.
You have to continue to nurtureand tend to the fire and it
will evolve over time as theconditions evolve.
And that's the same thing withyour life.
You will grow and learn, thingswill change around you, people
(39:59):
will come and go, and so youcan't just say this is what my
fire is in now, and then in fiveyears you could find that it's
burnt out because you've notbeen tending to what it needs
all along that timeframe, loveit.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
I love how some of my clients frame Ikigai for their
context, which is what you'vedone and you've really embraced
all the learnings from Ikigai.
So you keep dropping words andyou've really embraced all the
learnings from Ikigai.
So you keep dropping words.
You just drop yadigai, sothings worth doing, which is
actually a far more commonexpression in Japan, and that's
I mean that's really interesting, because we can ask ourselves
(40:35):
each day what is actually worthdoing, regardless if it's
pleasant or unpleasant, becausegetting up early to exercise in
the cold might be unpleasant,but it's worth doing.
Maybe there's this apology youneed to make to someone you've
been putting off.
Maybe you are working too muchand you think I need to spend
(40:56):
time with a family member.
So it's very helpful to frame.
It's more like this practicalside of Ikigai, where Ikigai's
more philosophical, perhapsYadagai's.
This practical approach.
And then you mentioned Yutorithis room or space to consider
(41:19):
others and be reflective andessentially do nothing is
something we're lacking.
So you have all this knowledgenow that you've remembered and
you're practicing, and youactually held a workshop on
Ikigai recently.
So do you want to talk aboutthat, how it was received and so
on?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Oh, I'd love to.
So this is the friends you, ifyou haven't discovered already.
There's two things about methat very much drive
intrinsically how I show up as aperson.
One is that I'm a sage, I loveto create moments of learning
and discovery, like to teach,and I'm a maven, I love to learn
(41:59):
.
And those two things come fromthe Sparketype body of work,
which was developed by JonathanFields out of the field of
positive psychology, and it waslooking at what is the work that
fuels you, what is the workthat gives you purpose, and you
lose all track of time and youget into flow.
And I know Ikigai talks aboutbeing in flow state.
(42:21):
And this body of work is sayingwhat is the type of work in
which you do that?
And work is both paid and notpaid, so it's either
vocationally it can bevocationally based but not and
for me, I show up as a sagemaven where I find deep purpose
in my work, where I find thatflow state, where I can just, I
just light up around.
It is when I get theopportunity to be a sage, I live
(42:45):
to illuminate and when I'm amaven, I love to learn.
So what did I do?
I learned with Nick and overthe course of I forget how many
weeks eight or 10 weeks thisincredible learning experience
which very much satiated themaven part of me.
But then the sage was like I'msorry, hello, what are we going
to do with this information andin addition to utilizing it in
(43:06):
my coaching practice?
So I'll tell you I'll answeryour question to Nick around the
workshop, but also encouragefolks.
If anyone's listening who is acoach or is interested, whether
professionally or doing thiswith maybe your team or your
family.
There's this wonderful elementof if people are feeling drained
or a lack of passion, ikigaibecomes a great coaching tool to
(43:28):
be able to help people identifywhere areas in their life that
they want to tweak, and so, froma workshop standpoint, I love
to be able to facilitateworkshops.
That's where my adult learningdoctorate comes in, and this is
just the space where I have somuch fun and you can build
beautiful community.
So I held a workshop.
There's a local business, verylarge business, who has a
(43:50):
foundation arm, and they havethis beautiful leadership center
and they host folks, experts tocome in and do these workshops,
and so I hosted a Find yourIcky Guy workshop and had oh, we
had about 40 people register,which shocked me.
I mean, it was right after theholidays, so people are still in
like Christmas hangover land,and I heard from so many that
(44:16):
this is what their soul neededright now.
What the research is showing,particularly in Western culture
but this is global is that weare facing a human energy crisis
, and the World HealthOrganization actually named it
that and so many of the globalconsulting firms are showing
that people are stressed out,their emotional health is down,
(44:38):
they are struggling, if notsuffering, and this is crossing
industries, this is crossingpositions, all of these things.
And so people are searching.
They are searching for new waysof thinking, new ways of living
that will help them not feel sosoulfully exhausted, and that's
how I positioned it.
(44:59):
Are you ready to light, setyour life on fire?
Are you ready to feel deeplypassionate and in love with your
life again?
And if so, let's find your ickyguy.
And so this was an all-dayworkshop.
We had 40 people and I used theFIRE framework that I shared
with you, nick around.
Let's explore what sparks you,what fuels you, what helps your
(45:20):
FIRE breathe and where areas ofyour life that you want to lean
into.
I introduced them to whatIkigai is, and Nick provides
wonderful tools when you gothrough his coaching
certification program of how youcan explain this to people, and
shared with them Miyake Cameoand her flower with the seven
(45:42):
Ikigai needs plus purpose, andso really laying the groundwork.
So there was a small educativeelement to it of let me inform
you as to what Ikigai is notwhat you're going to find on
Google, right what Ikigai is.
And then let's really dig intothis work and apply it to your
life.
And so use the Ikigai 9 scale tomeasure, and then started to
(46:04):
look at these different areasusing Kamiya's flower.
Well, I should say it's Nick'sflower, it's Kamiya's seven
needs of Ikigai plus purpose,for which Nick has created this
beautiful flower metaphor.
So, using the flower metaphorand then applying that to their
lives where are you lacking?
Where's an area that you wantto lean into?
(46:25):
And what was really beautifulis within those 40 individuals
who came, which happened to beall women.
This was not women exclusive,but it happened to be all women.
But you built this beautifulcommunity of women where they
could share what is going on intheir life, what are they
struggling with?
And it yielded some beautifuldiscoveries.
I had people who followed upafterwards to say, oh my gosh,
(46:47):
this was transformative for me.
This changed my life.
This helped me say this is whatI want to do in the next season
.
This is who I want to be.
These are the tweaks that Iwant to make.
It gave them permissionparticularly women to prioritize
themselves right by saying thatthis is an entire body of work
that is showing this is whathelps humans thrive, and so you
(47:11):
need to prioritize yourself.
And the beautiful nature of whyit was so transformative is, yes
, as a facilitator, you need tomake sure that you are creating
a meaningful learning experienceand you are creating the
conditions for people to betransformed.
But I believe that primarily,it's because of what Ikigai
(47:32):
represents is that it is truly adifferent way for you to look
at your life and what brings youjoy and meaning, and we don't
have a lot of that here in theUnited States.
I'm not saying it doesn't existthere are different elements of
it but we're not often able togo to a workshop on ikigai
something that's just completelynew and different and so it was
(47:56):
very well attended.
The assessments afterwards,people raved about it and now
want to do more of it.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, there you go, and I'm not surprised.
I would have loved to beenthere as a student.
I imagine you're an amazingfacilitator.
You have I mean, speaking ofenergy you're not lacking energy
.
Maybe that's where the energycrisis is going.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
You're sucking up all the energy.
I'm sucking all of the energyout of people, Nick.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
But it is a joy to talk with you.
Always, you do have thispositivity and this thirst for
life, thirst for knowledge,which brings us to what you call
yourself occasionally, yeah, asparkologist.
That's right, you've touched onit and I think our audience
probably has an idea.
You obviously spark life inothers.
(48:47):
But, yeah, what do you mean bybeing a sparkologist?
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Well, listen, I'm not .
I wish I had some sort ofprofound response to that.
I spent a good portion of mycareer in communications and
marketing, so I know how tobrand myself.
But there's two things in that.
(49:12):
One is that my company I namedmy company Light Echo, and the
only relevance to that at all isthat Light Echo is a term in
astronomy, so not astrology, butastronomy study of the universe
and a light echo is describingthat when we look into the night
sky, when you see a starexploding, a supernova happening
, we're not actually witnessingthat event, that what we're
(49:36):
witnessing is the lightrefracting, reflecting off space
gas and space dust, and so whatwe're perceiving is light that
has occurred in some other way,and I thought this is very much
how I want to live my life andwhat I want to do in the work is
that I see that we are alllight echoes of the people who
(50:00):
have invested in us, and I wantto do the same, and so I've
always been very drawn to thisidea of shine your light.
For me, I'm a woman of faith,and so there's a scripture
element to this of shine yourlight, especially in the
darkness, because this is whatpeople are craving.
And so, when it came to theSparkologist, is that I don't
always have the opportunities togo and do these lifelong
(50:21):
journeys with people.
Most of the time I'm coming inand I'm doing a year-long
engagement, coachingrelationship with someone, or
I'm coming in and doing aworkshop, or I'm going on stage
or I'm on a podcast or I'mhosting a podcast, and those are
sparks.
Those are sparks of opportunity.
Can I spark a new way forsomeone to look at their life,
for someone to think aboutthemselves?
(50:42):
Can I spark something that willlight them up so that then they
become that light echo andthere are ripple effects to that
.
And so I have this word pictureof the more of us that are
sparked and really become onfire, that what a beautiful
world we could create together.
And, my goodness, does theworld need it.
(51:02):
There is so much pain and hurtand harm and tragedy and hate
and all of this darkness.
And so when you choose to liveyour life as a light echo, man,
that brilliance, that warmth,that radiance can transform
people's lives.
And so I look as a sparkologist, I am studying and I'm living
(51:24):
into all of the ways that I canspark that inside the souls of
other people, not for my own egoor edification, but, my
goodness, like if I can sparksomething in someone and they
come alive and they do the workthat they're meant to do.
Man, what a beautiful worldthat we can work together.
So, and then I just branded itthe Sparkologist Works.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
It touches on the need of a bright future.
I think so.
Maybe part of your work doesthat.
You're the spark who createsthe spark for others to have a
bright future, and we want that.
We want to believe our life ismoving forward in a positive
direction.
So that's very inspiring work.
(52:07):
You do so much, so, yeah,moving forward.
How do you intend to includeIkigai in your work?
More workshops, speeches,coaching.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
So, yes, in all of these different ways, the work
that I do is I'm a professionalspeaker, I'm a consultant, I'm a
coach, and for the professionalspeaking side, I've built a
keynote all around this conceptof living your life on fire.
What does it mean to have yoursoul on fire?
(52:39):
And I introduced the idea thatIkigai is the solution to
burning brightly without burningout, and so I have built a
keynote speech around that andhave already started to deliver,
also, professional developmentworkshops.
So I've gone in and I'vedelivered this keynote to a
medical system, to a wholehospital, a whole group of
(53:00):
medical system, and then havecome in and done leadership
workshops specifically ondeveloping Ikigai in the
leadership team.
So trainings around that,workshops around that I'm going
to continue to do that.
And in my coaching work too is,particularly when I'm working
with leadership coaches orpeople who are looking at life
(53:20):
transitions, how can leaninginto your Ikigai give you some
wisdom and guidance about thedecisions that you're making
next?
And then, nick, I live this.
I mean this isn't justsomething that, oh, I thought
was really cool, which I did,but the more I mean I did right,
like this is, it's really cool,and so I want to learn more
about this and I mean, oh, and Iget to learn from a really cool
(53:44):
Aussie.
So, yes, please.
And then you really dig intothe work and you realize that if
you choose to let it marinateinto your soul, or if you let
your soul marinate in it, man,the deliciousness that comes
from how much your life, theflavor that it can bring into
(54:05):
your life, do you like themetaphor that I'm doing here?
Is anybody hungry yet.
But I'm being serious, I livethis and, in particular for me,
one of the areas that I have tobe continuously mindful of is,
if I'm talking about that firetriangle metaphor, is that
oxygen?
And so what do I need to do toensure I am giving my life the
(54:29):
utori that it needs?
And the Iba show Because, man,I've got the spark nailed down,
I've got the fuel nailed down,I've got all of that, and I can
find that my own light, my ownfire, can get suffocated very
quickly.
So, nick, I'm being serious.
It infuses all aspects of mylife, personally and
professionally.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Wonderful.
That's amazing to hear.
It is kind of strange.
I think I've shared this before.
I'm an unlikely source to beteaching this concept, being an
Aussie, and I guess it is oddthat we're foreigners to the
concept and I guess it is oddthat we're foreigners to the
concept yet it's become asignificant part of our lives
and work and I've been reallyimpressed with what you've done,
(55:10):
because it wasn't that long ago, you know we finished our
one-on-one eight sessions.
I think it was 10 sessions.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Because I ask a lot of questions people, because I'm
the Y kid.
Speaker 2 (55:26):
So modules went over because Katie asked Nick 50
questions that he had to answer.
That's a joy to me.
I don't mind a few moresessions if we maintain this
connection and, more importantly, if you go out and use it,
which you've done.
So that's been really inspiringfor me and it's like wow,
you've already used this inworkshops, in keynotes, in work
(55:47):
with companies and it soundslike it's having an impact on
other people.
So it's like that light echoeffect you touched on.
So that's really inspiring.
So I'm sure some people wouldlove to learn more about you and
, who knows, maybe even workwith you.
So where can people find you?
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Everywhere.
No, I'm kidding Nick.
I am a light echo.
I'm everywhere.
Um, my website is lightechococo.
You can find me there.
I'm also on lots of socials, ifyour listeners are on LinkedIn,
facebook, instagram.
I'm all under the handle ofKatie Sando and I just love to
(56:33):
connect with people,particularly people who want to
make the world a better place.
Man, if you're listening tothis and you want to make the
world a better place, you're mypeople and we need to connect.
Speaker 2 (56:45):
There you go.
Now.
I can't end without asking thisquestion.
We've just thirst for knowledgeand this constant sort of
qualification, not qualification, but you just love learning.
So what are you working on orwhat are you learning at the
moment?
Speaker 1 (57:04):
Okay, get ready for this, All right.
So I have two books runningconcurrently.
One is on the audio version onAudible called Atomic Habits.
That's phenomenal.
If you haven't read that,that's a great one.
The other one that I'm readingin print at night is Necessary
Endings by Dr Henry Cloud, andit's really looking at in
(57:28):
business and in life there areseasons for everything and when
is the time that you need to cutthings or people or situations
and move on from them, and soit's really rich, good stuff.
So that's what I'm consumingfrom a book standpoint, and
currently I am getting certifiedin emotional intelligence, and
(57:50):
so this week, in fact, was anintensive, long certification
process and I will take my examand hopefully pass that, because
that, I think, is anotherreally key element for people's
overall wellbeing and feeling asense of thriving is, as you're
looking at your life, reallyunderstanding for yourself, how
(58:13):
self-aware are you, how well areyou able to express connections
and interpersonal relationships, how well do you respond under
pressure and in challenge and indecision-making and the role of
emotions and all of that.
And then I'm not going to tellyou I might have two more things
keyed up that I might work oncertifications later this year,
(58:34):
nick.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
Wow, not surprised.
Well, it's amazing how muchinformation you retain.
At times, I thought I waslearning more from you than you
were from me.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
I'm going to pause and say real quick, nick, that
this is your podcast.
I understand that, but I'm goingto give you kudos because
that's when you know you're agreat teacher, is when you're
approaching the space oflearning from your students as
much as they are from you.
That's when you know you'recreating a space where learning
can thrive, and that's beautiful.
(59:06):
So you have set it up well, andI do want to also say that I
know you think sometimes it'sodd that you're this Aussie
who's bringing icky guy to theWestern world, and I couldn't
think of no better person,because you've lived in the
culture, you speak the language,you read it and so you're able
(59:29):
to not just literally translateit but culturally translate it.
And in the combination that youhave a deep respect for Japan,
for the Japanese people, and youare really passionate about
ensuring the integrity of theIkigai concept is brought in a
(59:50):
way that respects that countryand the people within it, and so
that's why I think you arebeautifully positioned to do
this work and I don't think itought at all.
I'm grateful.
Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Well, that's very kind of you.
So I accept those comments withmuch gratitude.
And, yeah, you were a greatstudent.
You're now a great fun friend,and I can't wait for us to meet
in person, whether that be here,there or in Japan.
So thank you, katie, for beingthe spark in my life at times
(01:00:23):
and for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Thank you, Nick.
I always, always enjoy ourconversation.
It's so rich and fun.
I appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Likewise Okay, bye for now.
And what Ikigai does is give you the opportunity to
pause and consider in thesedifferent areas of my life.
Where do I find joy?
Where do I find fulfillment?
Where do I find purpose?
And guess what?
Americans and Westerners.
It doesn't have to be in thesebig, huge stuff.
It can be in the small thingsthat give you great joy, that
(00:24):
people might otherwise laugh at.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
At ikigaitribecom, my guesttoday on the Ikigai podcast is
Dr Katie Sando, a sparkologist.
Katie is a keynote speaker,entrepreneur, educator, ikigai
Tribe coach and spark typeadvisor.
Katie, you have a master's incommunications and a doctorate
(01:05):
in adult learning and are aprofessor in communications and
adult learning, and you haveextensive experience in various
industries and business settings.
For nearly 25 years, you'veprovided strategic
communications and executiveleadership to numerous
organizations in such placessuch as equitable housing,
marketing and advertising, andeven in recycling and solid
(01:27):
waste management.
So that's all very interesting.
More importantly, katie, youbelieve that we're all created
for a purpose, and yours is tospark the flame of purpose in
others and to help women liveinto their limitless potential.
With that, welcome to thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Nick, my mate, my friend, my Aussie connection.
It is a great gift to be herein ShareSpace and talk all
things Iggy Guy with you.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Likewise, it's good to reciprocate.
I was on your podcast, so gladyou're on mine.
Yeah, let's start with yourbackground.
What would you like to sharewith our listeners?
Speaker 1 (02:11):
You touched upon it in my bio, but if I were to
describe what is most importantto me like, this could be
engraved on my gravestone it'sthat I want nothing more than
for people to know that theymatter and their lives have a
purpose, and that infuses allaspects of my life, whether
(02:35):
that's just how I show up withmy friends, my family, my
neighbors, the barista at thecoffee shop, the work that I do,
it just infuses all aspectsabout me.
So that's like the existentialpart, and then your listeners
will find out very quickly I'mboth a doctor and a dork.
Like you're going to get thevery intellectual, cerebral,
intense, existential Katie, andthen you're also going to get
(02:56):
the comedian.
And so the other labels that Ilike to attribute to myself is I
am an educator.
I'm a lifelong learner.
I love nothing more than toteach and facilitate moments of
learning and discovery.
I do have my own consultingcompany and I'm a podcast host.
But most importantly, nick, I'ma taco lover.
(03:17):
I love street tacos.
They are my life.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Really.
I don't think I've ever hadstreet tacos, so one day you'll
have to treat me.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You are missing out and it's not a joke, y'all Like.
My license plate on my car saystaco lover.
It's a legit thing, wow.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, that sounds like a little source of ikigai,
but you touched on helpingpeople feel needed, or hoping
that people feel needed and alsothat people have a sense of
purpose, and that's very muchrelated to what we're going to
talk about today, among otherthings, ikigai.
So you did take my Ikigai tribecertification and we actually
(03:59):
did it one-on-one, which isquite a unique experience.
So I think that's sort of thereason why we get on like a
house on fire.
We're good mates now, and Isoon realized how much you love
to invest in learning becauseyou are so knowledgeable in so
many things.
I was a bit overwhelmed, likeyou just seem to know everything
.
So where does this thirst forknowledge come from?
Speaker 1 (04:22):
So I'll answer that two ways.
One is I have always been thewhy kid.
So for those of you who areparents or you work with kids or
you're around kids, there isthis curiosity that kids have
where they want to know why, whydoes something work this way?
Why do we need to do it thisway?
(04:42):
Why you tell me I need to wearthis, why?
And I have always been that whykid?
And I have carried thatcuriosity with me even now, well
into my adulthood, where I'malways wanting to know the why
behind something and, inparticular, my why is around
human thinking and behavior, why?
(05:03):
do people think, the way they doact, the way they do talk, the
way they do perceive the world,and that has driven me to want
to discover all of thesedifferent elements.
So I am the why kid is how Isay it.
I was the kid where I asked myparents why the sky was blue.
(05:23):
They gave me an answer, and Iwould want five more answers,
and so that very much describeswho I am.
So I believe it's justinstinctive into who I am.
I am intrinsically motivated tolearn, and, as that relates to
the work that I do, I am verymuch driven to want to learn
something new, a new perspective, a new concept, a new way of
(05:46):
living, new set of practices, soI can help my clients and I can
help the people that I workwith live better, enjoy their
work better, and so that's whatled me to Ikigai is just
curiosity of asking a lot of whyquestions.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
It's a wonderful mindset or approach to living or
trait and I think once youstart learning and asking why,
you realize how much there is tolearn and you almost get the
sense of I really do havelimited time on this planet.
Now.
There's so much I could learn.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Do have limited time on this planet now.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
There's so much I could learn, just even within
one culture or even in one fieldor subject.
So asking why is a greatquestion I often ask myself like
why is that?
Why does Japan have theseunique words, or why does Japan
produce these unique culturalpractices, or why do they have
these unique arts?
(06:47):
So that's obviously whatattracted me to Japan.
And then, eventually, ikigai.
But I would say, one of yourIkigai involves young girls and
women, and much of what you donow is about championing girls
and women, so would you like totalk on that please?
I always love to talk aboutchampioning girls and women, so
would you like to talk on thatplease?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I always love to talk about championing women and
girls in life, and you're rightso to use the Ikigai terminology
.
My kokorozashi is to helppeople find purpose in their
work and at work.
Find purpose in their work andat work and diving a bit deeper,
in particular, championingwomen in that process.
(07:28):
And I came to this work.
I reside in the United States.
The culture that I know wellbecause it is my culture, is the
United States, and in mygraduate studies work I was
noticing.
Part of that work was doingresearch around the lack of
(07:51):
representation of women inpolitical leadership in the
United States and seeing thereal disparity at all levels of
political leadership, that therewas a lack of women
representation in that space.
And I came across a study thatforever changed the course of my
life.
It really did.
And this study found that andthis is going to be particular
(08:13):
to Western cultures where whenlittle girls and little boys are
in elementary school and below,they have equal levels of
confidence to lead, they'llraise their hand to be at the
front of the line to answer thequestion, to be president, to be
an astronaut.
And something happens to girlsin middle school around that age
where they stop raising theirhand, and it's one of the
(08:34):
reasons why women have to beasked five times to run for
political office before theywill even consider it, and men
will volunteer.
And so I said I want to be apart of a solution where we get
to those little girls and wechampion them to build their
confidence so they can grow upto be women who change the world
, because their lives havepurpose, and we need everyone to
(08:59):
know that.
When you wake up in the morning, that is a gift and you have
something incredible to do withyour life.
Whatever you feel called to doup in the morning, that is a
gift and you have somethingincredible to do with your life.
Whatever you feel called to doin my goodness, I want you to
have the confidence to do that,and so that has led me in many
different areas, whether it'svolunteering, speaking to
women's groups, leadingworkshops, and I will say that
(09:23):
to champion women and girls isas much building their
confidence and giving them theskillset to thrive as much as it
is needing our men champions,our men advocates to help us, to
give us platform, to empower uswhen we don't have the power to
(09:44):
do so.
So the work that I do aroundchampioning women and girls is
both supporting and championingwomen and developing their skill
set and rallying our menchampions because we need them
too and this is very much a partof my kokorozashi and I will
say, too, the connection toeBashow.
(10:05):
So in my work of championingwomen and girls, I became a part
of a nonprofit organization inthe United States called Girls
on the Run, and this is workingwith girls in elementary school
to help them build social,emotional learning skills to
thrive and my goodness did.
I find really a sense ofbelonging and Ibasho in that
(10:27):
community of like-minded peoplewho were rallying around a cause
and it very much felt like aplace where I belong.
So this is a gift that I haveto really work with women to
live into their full potential.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Love it.
This is what I love about youit's very level-headed but very
ambitious attitude towards ohyeah, how can we empower women?
And you're not making a case tohave an argument about this
unlevel playing field, whichclearly exists.
So you're about empowering mentoo, and you're dropping all
(11:03):
these words.
So it just proves what a greatstudent you are, kokorozashi.
So this personal mission e-basha place to be.
But to go back to the question,why, like?
Why does this happen?
Why do young girls, when theyenter middle school, suddenly
feel that they can't put theirhand up?
It's obviously some sort ofsocial conditioning.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So when you look at the research on confidence, and
specifically confidence aroundwomen, there are three primary
factors.
One is genetics.
Science shows women areneurobiologically
predispositioned towardsnegative self-talk, that
(11:44):
internal chatter of I'm notenough, I can't do this, the
imposter syndrome.
It has a whole bunch ofdifferent names.
Neurobiologically, women, forwhatever reason, are predisposed
to have more of that.
So that leads us to questionmore of ourselves.
Additionally, from aphysiological perspective, we
joke that girls mature earlierthan boys and I want to be
(12:06):
inclusive for all genders, butI'm primarily speaking in that
regard the science around itthat girls mature earlier than
boys and, it is true, theirprefrontal cortex, which is that
reasoning, that understanding,impact, forward thinking that is
developing about five yearsearlier than boys.
And so what we have seen isthat girls around the middle
(12:27):
school age are becoming moreaware of the social expectations
put upon them.
They are starting to questiontheir worth, their value, their
value in their size, in theirvoice, in what they're
interested in, and they'restarting to pay attention to
these expectations andquestioning and then therefore
questioning themselves.
It's not that this doesn'thappen to boys, it's that it's
(12:49):
happening later.
It typically happens in collegeage and early adulthood in boys
, and so girls are nowexperiencing this
self-calibration much earlierthan boys.
And then you mentioned toothere are the sociocultural
influences, and in the UnitedStates it is a predominantly
(13:09):
patriarchal culture andhistorically has
disproportionately quieted womenand kept them small in voice
and size, and particularly whatwe're talking about in the
public sphere, so in the publicrealm, in work, in politics, in
these community spaces, andthere are still lingering
effects of that and that iscoming together where girls then
(13:32):
are experiencing thesepressures and they're not even
aware of it.
The founder of the Girls on theRun nonprofit organization,
molly Barker she's just amazing,she came up with, coined this
term, girl box that essentially,around the middle school age,
girls get put into a box andthey keep themselves there, not
intentionally.
So this is part of theunlearning and relearning of
(13:54):
what are the differentconditions that are keeping me
to stay small in voice and size.
And this is where I think, inparticular, the perspective and
the concepts in the Ikigai bodyof work can help reframe for
women their perception ofthemselves, what is important to
them, their sense of purpose inlife, the rolefulness that they
(14:16):
have, their sense of community,all of these different elements
.
Ikigai itself is not going tosolve the issue of the girl box,
but within it itself are somewonderful tools to be able to
change the way we think aboutourselves, particularly as women
.
So, to answer your question inshort version, there is both a
physiological component to itnature, right and nurture.
(14:39):
From a sociological perspective, how you're raised, your family
, where, the educationalinstitutions if you have a faith
institution, media, pop culturethese different elements very
much shape how we come tounderstand ourselves as an
individual identity and then aspart of our social identity.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Thank you, I definitely agree.
Women mature far earlier thanboys, or even some men.
I'm probably an example of that.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
At least you admit it , Nick.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I can admit it, I mean it's true.
So that might be the irony.
It's like, oh, women matureearlier than men, yet they have
very little representation inkind of most forms of leadership
.
So this does lead us to onewoman who really broke the mould
in Japan, obviously, a countrywhere, back in the 1960s, to do
(15:38):
what she did was incredibly rare, and it's a source of
inspiration, I think, for bothof us, and this is why I like to
call her the mother of Ikigaiand I like to champion her along
with her work.
She was Japan's researchpioneer, lived this amazing,
(15:59):
unconventional life and, despitegreat success, had a lot of I
guess, what we'd call lack ofikigai in her life as well.
So she had a really interestinglife and produced this amazing
body of work, and her name isMihiko Kamiya.
So we studied and discussed herwork together.
What did you find inspiring andhelpful about her work?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So many things and this is why y'all, if you have
not taken Nick's certificationcourse, what are you waiting for
?
Because it's phenomenal.
But I knew I liked Nick fromthe beginning when he introduced
me to the mother of Ikigai andreally attributed the I'm going
to say recent, in the last youknow what 40, 50, 60 years, this
(16:44):
birth of research around Ikigai, and much of it originates with
Miyake Kamiyo, and there's acouple of things that resonated
quite deeply with me personallyin who she was, what I
understood of her through thework that you gave Nick, and one
is that she had this curiosityin her work with lepers Japanese
(17:09):
lepers from a psychologicalstandpoint and from a
psychiatric standpoint, thatotherwise these people could
have every reason to bemiserable.
Their bodies are deformed,they're in pain, they are
isolated on these islands and sothey are social outcasts.
And they had such a vibrancyfor life and felt fulfilled.
(17:33):
And she saw that and thecuriosity around wanting to
capture that and not just from aresearch perspective and not
just from a research perspective, but bring that for everyone in
her writing of the book, and Iam so grateful when someone does
not have the ego of academiathat it's all about the research
(17:56):
, but that she wanted to writethis book and she felt this was
her life.
Calling was to write this book,to be able to put this into the
world.
And in American culture therewas a wonderful adult educator,
christian Lindemann, who saidthat true learning does not
belong within the ivory walls ofacademia, but that really
(18:18):
learning happens when you canbring it out to the people.
And this is what she did, andso right away I just had such
profound respect for her to seethat she wasn't just interested
from a research perspective butreally wanted to capture the
spirit of what she waswitnessing and to bring that to
people.
So that was one thing.
And the other element thatresonated with me about her was
(18:45):
that doing that work is hard andthere are conflicting
priorities in your life.
She was trying to finish herdissertation work and she was
married and she had kids.
And particularly when I'mtalking about champion women and
girls, women can be so oftenconditioned that you need to
(19:07):
prioritize your family, yourchildren, these nurturing
aspects of you and other thingstake a backseat, and I think she
showed through her life now.
It wasn't easy, but she showedthat, yes, my family is
important to me, but, mygoodness, I cannot die, my life
cannot go away until I finishthis thing.
(19:27):
And how beautiful, what abeautiful example and role model
for women to say you can't haveit all, but you can have things
that are really important toyou.
And it doesn't have to be allsituated within the context of
family and these nurturingaspects.
You can want and desiresomething so incredible and feel
(19:49):
such a calling to bring it tolife.
And I just want to pause and Ican say, when I say you can't
have it all, I'm simply sayingthat there is a recent dialogue
that we like to tell women of oh, you can have it all and do it
all, and that, quite frankly, isimpossible.
And I don't want any womenlistening to think that you have
to try and do it all.
(20:09):
And I think Kamiya's life is anexample of that.
I mean, she struggled with alot of things.
She struggled with mentalhealth, she felt really
conflicting priorities, and soshe was living that experience.
But I just was rooting for heras I was living the story of you
know she had a lot ofexpectations from a traditional,
(20:30):
you know, woman in thehousehold and yet she was like
nope, don't take me, lord.
Don't take me until I'vewritten this book.
So those were the things thatreally resonated with me about
her.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
It is a fascinating life and I agree with you.
I mean, it was almost as if shewas tracked in academia.
And, yeah, you know this quoteI read from her diary where she
was basically saying my demonsare raging today and I could
almost kill myself how long do Ihave to keep going correcting
(21:03):
English papers of my husband'sstudents?
So she was doing her own sortof academic work and then, yeah,
because she was a linguist, youknow, I guess the husband was
like, hey, honey, could youcheck these papers?
And what I really appreciatedabout her was her honesty, that
at times she realized all thisother work can be done by other
(21:26):
people, even the upbringing ofchildren, and she had this
incredible desire to expressherself and for her it was
through writing this book.
And I think sometimes as aparent, it's like, yeah, man,
I've got to.
I remember having to take Luke,my son, to sport and all these
things, and there were timeslike you do feel, man, I wish I
(21:49):
could focus on what I want to doand I really appreciated her
transparency on that.
Like we all have this desire orhopefully some of us have this
desire to respond to this urge,to what she described as give
expression to yourself.
And she found that, and it wasobviously through writing her
(22:09):
first book.
And despite her success, or herperceived success linguist,
translator, professor, tutoredthe former Empress of Japan was
even an interpreter during theTokyo War crimes trial none of
that really seemed to matter andshe had this desire to research
(22:29):
Ikigai but also improve thelives of the lepers you
mentioned.
She was focused on that as welland she also lived a relatively
short life.
You know she died at the age of65.
She had all these healthproblems, eventually got cancer,
(22:51):
but she was quite prolific too.
So she wrote several bookstowards the end of her life.
And, yeah, she really found herikigai in writing.
So I agree with you.
This idea of you can have it alland do it all.
I mean it's sort of a very, Iguess, american or Western
attitude and it is not true.
I think you can have somethingthat matters, that will allow
(23:12):
you to be, you become the personyou want to be.
But yeah, you've got to find itand you need the space and the
time to find it and nurture itand feel like you're worthy of
it as well.
And maybe that's the struggle.
We might find it, but then weprobably think, oh, I'm not
worthy of this, I'm not goodenough, and maybe you know,
(23:36):
maybe I don't know women feelthat more than men because of
all these reasons you mentionedas to why you know they don't go
into roles of leadership,because of this social
conditioning.
So I hope she is thisinspiration to women to, yeah,
give expression to somethingthat you really care about.
(23:59):
That is essentially your ikigai.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, and I don't know if you would agree or not,
but as you're describing thejournal entry of her
experiencing these demons oflike oh God, if I have to edit
one more paper of my husband's,or you know, this is the example
of when you find your Hatarakiguy work worth doing, that you
come fully alive and to yourpoint, fully expressed.
(24:24):
And when you're doing thingsthat aren't worth it to you,
they can feel maddening and thisis what drain you.
It is soulful exhaustion, and Ithink that is what a lot of
people are experiencing rightnow, particularly in the United
States and in other Westerncultures is they're doing a lot
(24:45):
of things that aren't worth it,but they're doing them because
it will get them something else,maybe more money, maybe the
title, more respect.
I don't know what it isAccumulation of something, of
power, of wealth, of status, andit's not always for ego reasons
, it's just.
This is what we're told you gotto do big things and so it
requires you to do a lot ofstuff that really, when you look
(25:08):
back on your life, it's notworth it.
And so you're describing, likeall of these things that her CV
or her resume would be soimpressive, of who she tutored
and what she published, and toher she's like, yeah, but that
in the end, that's not the workthat is worth doing to me.
This is the work that is worthdoing to me, and so I thought
(25:31):
she also exemplified of thisstruggle that we have of doing
things because we have to.
This is also adulting you haveto do stuff that you don't like,
but ensuring that you'rebringing into your life things
that are worth doing, becausethat is what brings a sense of
joy and fulfillment andworthiness to your life.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned some
people kind of chase all thesethings with great ambition,
thinking it'll provide them withthis life satisfaction or sense
of worthiness.
And then there are other peoplewho just seem to accept the
status quo and this is how lifeis you just work and then you
(26:16):
enjoy weekends and holidays andthen you retire.
But I think both scenariosdon't provide that life worth
living, and life is definitely ajourney of ups and downs.
But yeah, ikigai touches onthis idea of agency and so you
have to define the life you wantand then try and pursue it and
(26:39):
along the way you discover okay,I thought it was this and now I
realize it's not, but then thatguides you to the next step and
then eventually, I guess, youfind what is your ikigai.
So maybe that was the journeyfor Miya Kokamiya, but she did
have this strong connection toboth writing and she did write
(27:02):
about her first experiencerecalling when she first saw
lepers.
And she did write about herfirst experience recalling when
she first saw lepers and she wasinspired by the nurse who was
looking after these lepers at achurch service where she was
playing the organ.
So I think we also have thesemoments in our childhood or
early years, where we have thatfirst taste of ikigai or a sense
(27:23):
of purpose.
Have that first taste of ikigaior a sense of purpose and it's
fascinating how it might takedecades before you go back to it
or before you somehow realiseoh, that was a telling moment
and I'm in a position to exploreit.
So I've got so many questions Icould ask you.
But I love you as a student.
You dropped hatarakigai, sowork worth doing, so nothing
(27:47):
gets past you.
You seem to retain everything.
So, with this approach to life,using Ikigai, what does it
offer people that's unique ordifferent to Western approaches
to coaching and personaldevelopment?
Speaker 1 (28:03):
If you choose it to be, ikigai becomes a framework
to help you refocus on what yougive your time, your talents and
your treasures to, and here'swhat I mean by that,
particularly in Western culture.
We are just inclined we doeverything big.
(28:25):
There's this joke in Texas,which is a state in it's like a
whole other country within theUnited States.
They say everything's bigger inTexas.
Americans just got to doeverything big and apparently we
have to be the first ateverything, and in some respects
that has served us really well.
We've been able to inventawesome things, do incredible
(28:46):
things.
But it also becomes this mantra, as though you have to live
this big life constantly.
That is exhausting and it leadsto a lot of soulful depletion.
And much of the work that isbeing done by experts around
well-being, addressingexhaustion, addressing burnout,
(29:08):
has a lot to do with attendingto the body.
Deep breathing practices, yoga,exercise, meditation, better
diet and all of those things arewonderful, so I am not
disregarding those things.
But what I believe is happeningquite a bit in the United
(29:30):
States and from what I learnedtoo, with globalization it
sounds like it's starting toinfuse in different areas in
major metropolitan areas inJapan is the fact that people
are soulfully exhausted.
And so when you've reached thepoint of overwhelm and
exhaustion and burnout, yes,your body is telling you that
something is wrong, but it's nota body issue.
(29:52):
It's presenting in the body.
I think it's a soul issue.
And when you're examining whatyou're currently giving your
attention to, your focus to it'son all of these things.
Oh, I should do more of this.
Maybe I should do less thanthis.
I'm investing in people who arereally not that's not great
relationships.
There's so much that's out ofmy control that's happening and
(30:15):
all of this is taking yourattention and your energy and
none of that is soul fillingstuff.
It is actually soul-draining.
And what Ikigai does is give youthe opportunity to pause and
consider in these differentareas of my life, where do I
find joy?
Where do I find fulfillment?
(30:36):
Where do I find purpose?
And guess what?
Americans and Westerners?
It doesn't have to be in thesebig huge stuff.
It can be in the small thingsthat give you great joy that
people might otherwise laugh atTo you.
It's really meaningful, nick meevery morning going on a walk
(30:57):
with my dog, my littleAustralian Labradoodle, I know,
going on a walk with him andjust watching his curiosity of
the world and being outside inthe fresh air and that moment,
leaving my cell phone aside,that is such a source of icky
guy for me.
That is where I find you, tori.
(31:18):
Spaciousness of my mind is Iget to go with this little
sentient creature who doesn'tcare at all who I am, what I do,
the title that I have, thislittle furball is just so
enamored with me as a person andI get to go for a walk outside
with him.
That brings me so much joy.
Waking up in the morning whenit's really quiet and it's dark
(31:42):
out, and just sitting at mytable doing some scripture
reading, doing some meditation,drinking my cup of coffee, that
is precious time.
And if you're so focused ondoing the big things, achieving
the big goals, training for thebig thing, you miss out on the
beautiful little things thatcontribute to a meaningful life.
(32:05):
And we know Ikigai alsoincludes the big things.
But in regard to how does ithelp, from a Western perspective
, reframe things?
It elevates for us theimportance of the small things
that we're not giving enoughattention to.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
You've reminded me of a few moments I had this week
with just my son.
My son was looking outside of awindow and he saw this little
bird sort of hopping about inthe garden and he said oh dad,
this bird has ADHD.
It's a joke.
So I go over and we just watchthis little bird jumping about,
(32:43):
frolicking and putting its beakin the dirt or trying to find
maybe a worm, and then it jumpedup to a branch and then another
branch and it was such a nicelittle moment and then we were
just silently watching togetherand then it eventually jumped
over the fence to another treeand I thought, wow, that was
like this little special momentwe'll never have again in the
(33:04):
same way at least.
And I thought, wow, that waslike this little special moment
we'll never have again in thesame way at least.
And then another thing we do isspeaking of birds.
We have, like this toy birdthat's really for my cat, and
we've sort of developed thisregular game of throwing it into
the laundry basket, sort of ata distance.
We kind of have these penaltiesIf you lose, you have to go to
(33:27):
the shop and buy a snack orsomething.
And this is how we play and wedon't plan it.
He'll just sort of walk into myroom when I'm working and go
Dad, let's have a round.
We call them rounds now.
And that's the time where Iseem to really enjoy the day.
I might get a sale of my courseor something and feel great.
But it's these other momentswhere it's related to often,
(33:53):
people or, you know, your dog ora bird that seem to, yeah, give
you that little lift during theday.
And I'm all for goals andambition and I'm a pretty
ambitious person.
But you've got to ask yourselflike, oh, where does this
ambition end?
And it comes with adouble-edged sword because, yeah
(34:13):
, you're using your skills andyou've got this sense of purpose
, but if you overcommit, it canbe health problems or you might
be chasing something that's notreally aligned to what you care
about.
So there is a balance and Ithink you're right.
Ikigai does reframe things soyou can appreciate the small and
that you're living aligned toyour values and that you're not
(34:36):
overstepping, because we haveenough stress in our life as it
is.
Yeah, so I like that idea.
It is in the small, but it doesallow you to pursue ambitious
things that are aligned to yourvalues.
And then there's the irony.
You're right, like even inJapan, there's a huge lack of
(34:59):
ikigai or a lack of ibasho, andI've researched keywords like
Google Trends and ikigai nai oribasho nai, meaning lack of
ikigai or lack of ibasho.
Are these common terms relatedto the concept and maybe that's
the price we pay for capitalism?
(35:20):
Like the goal of capitalism, I,is to want more, sell more,
have more, and it's really hardto, or it seems hard for us to
work out.
Oh, how much is enough?
Speaker 1 (35:35):
So I've been using a metaphor of the fire triangle to
explain to people how Ikigai.
Explain to people how Ikigai,trying to give them an
accessible way, because it'sthis rich, complex, beautiful
body of work that has ancienthistorical significance to the
(35:57):
Japanese culture and alsoacademically, there's so much
that we can learn from it.
And so how do I succinctly givepeople a word picture to
understand what it can do fortheir life?
And I've been using the firetriangle.
And the fire triangle comesfrom the space and industry, of
those who are looking to combatfires and looking to address
(36:20):
that.
And there's three maincomponents that a fire needs in
order to thrive it needs a sparkright, it needs order to thrive
, it needs a spark right.
It needs an ignition source, itneeds a constant source of fuel
and it needs the rightenvironment.
It needs oxygen and those threethings together create the
chemical reaction for which firehappens.
And as I look at Westerncultures, we don't lack spark.
(36:42):
So the big ambition, the goal,the purpose, the thing we're
driving towards our values, likeyeah, we can manifest a lot of
spark in our life and fuel aswell the things that you invest
your time and your talents andyour energy in, whether it's
paid work or not paid work orhobbies or learning.
We can just fill our lives withall of these fuel sources, and
(37:02):
so you can spark the heck out of.
Just fill our lives with all ofthese fuel sources and so you
can spark the heck out of it,and you can have all of this
fuel.
But if your fire doesn't havespace to breathe, it will
suffocate.
And I look at the environmentfor a fire to thrive in this
oxygen, as these concepts inIkigai of community of Ibas Show
(37:23):
a place where you belong, whereyou can be seen, as well as
Utori, spaciousness in my mind,space to be worry-free, space to
be creative, space to just bepresent, and that is what I
think we are so lacking inWestern culture is.
I and some people don't havethis, but I think a lot of
people can find and quicklyaccess what are the things that
(37:46):
motivate them, what are theirvalues, what is their purpose,
what drives them, what are thosebig goals I want to set and
achieve.
Not everybody does it, but Ithink we can easily get to that
and certainly we can fill ourtime with all kinds of stuff
that maybe is even deeplymeaningful.
That is, yari guy, things worthdoing, but if you're not
(38:08):
creating the space for you tobreathe, for your life, to
breathe both relationally, beingaround your people, your
community, your Iba show, andjust having space to be human,
then your fire will burn out.
And so Ikig guy becomes thisreminder.
This is how I've been describingto people.
This is what it does for you tobe on fire about your life,
(38:30):
deeply passionate withoutburning out.
Which are the areas for whichyou want to address where you
feel like your fire is burningout.
Maybe you have all kinds ofcommunity in EBASHO.
Maybe you've got some greatmeditation practices, you've got
spaciousness of mind, butyou're bored, right.
So maybe you need to focus onmore things in your life that
(38:51):
will fuel that fire.
Or maybe you have those twothings and yet you don't have a
big ambition that you're workingfor.
So I've been using that as ametaphor to be able to help
people quickly access andidentify where the areas in
their life.
If you think of your life as afire, do you feel alive?
Do you feel like lit on fire,passionate about your life?
(39:12):
Can you say are you in love withyour life?
Not a part of it?
Not like I love being a mom, orI love being a dog mom, or I
love being a boss, or I lovebeing a dog mom, or I love being
a boss, or I love being afriend, or I love cooking.
No like, do you love all ofyour life?
Are you madly in love with yourlife?
And if you aren't, where arethe areas that you want to tweak
(39:35):
?
And that's where Ikigai givesyou this ability to lean into
the things that really give youdeep meaning and joy and much
like a fire.
You know it's not stagnant.
You have to continue to nurtureand tend to the fire and it
will evolve over time as theconditions evolve.
And that's the same thing withyour life.
You will grow and learn, thingswill change around you, people
(39:59):
will come and go, and so youcan't just say this is what my
fire is in now, and then in fiveyears you could find that it's
burnt out because you've notbeen tending to what it needs
all along that timeframe, loveit.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
I love how some of my clients frame Ikigai for their
context, which is what you'vedone and you've really embraced
all the learnings from Ikigai.
So you keep dropping words andyou've really embraced all the
learnings from Ikigai.
So you keep dropping words.
You just drop yadigai, sothings worth doing, which is
actually a far more commonexpression in Japan, and that's
I mean that's really interesting, because we can ask ourselves
(40:35):
each day what is actually worthdoing, regardless if it's
pleasant or unpleasant, becausegetting up early to exercise in
the cold might be unpleasant,but it's worth doing.
Maybe there's this apology youneed to make to someone you've
been putting off.
Maybe you are working too muchand you think I need to spend
(40:56):
time with a family member.
So it's very helpful to frame.
It's more like this practicalside of Ikigai, where Ikigai's
more philosophical, perhapsYadagai's.
This practical approach.
And then you mentioned Yutorithis room or space to consider
(41:19):
others and be reflective andessentially do nothing is
something we're lacking.
So you have all this knowledgenow that you've remembered and
you're practicing, and youactually held a workshop on
Ikigai recently.
So do you want to talk aboutthat, how it was received and so
on?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Oh, I'd love to.
So this is the friends you, ifyou haven't discovered already.
There's two things about methat very much drive
intrinsically how I show up as aperson.
One is that I'm a sage, I loveto create moments of learning
and discovery, like to teach,and I'm a maven, I love to learn
(41:59):
.
And those two things come fromthe Sparketype body of work,
which was developed by JonathanFields out of the field of
positive psychology, and it waslooking at what is the work that
fuels you, what is the workthat gives you purpose, and you
lose all track of time and youget into flow.
And I know Ikigai talks aboutbeing in flow state.
(42:21):
And this body of work is sayingwhat is the type of work in
which you do that?
And work is both paid and notpaid, so it's either
vocationally it can bevocationally based but not and
for me, I show up as a sagemaven where I find deep purpose
in my work, where I find thatflow state, where I can just, I
just light up around.
It is when I get theopportunity to be a sage, I live
(42:45):
to illuminate and when I'm amaven, I love to learn.
So what did I do?
I learned with Nick and overthe course of I forget how many
weeks eight or 10 weeks thisincredible learning experience
which very much satiated themaven part of me.
But then the sage was like I'msorry, hello, what are we going
to do with this information andin addition to utilizing it in
(43:06):
my coaching practice?
So I'll tell you I'll answeryour question to Nick around the
workshop, but also encouragefolks.
If anyone's listening who is acoach or is interested, whether
professionally or doing thiswith maybe your team or your
family.
There's this wonderful elementof if people are feeling drained
or a lack of passion, ikigaibecomes a great coaching tool to
(43:28):
be able to help people identifywhere areas in their life that
they want to tweak, and so, froma workshop standpoint, I love
to be able to facilitateworkshops.
That's where my adult learningdoctorate comes in, and this is
just the space where I have somuch fun and you can build
beautiful community.
So I held a workshop.
There's a local business, verylarge business, who has a
(43:50):
foundation arm, and they havethis beautiful leadership center
and they host folks, experts tocome in and do these workshops,
and so I hosted a Find yourIcky Guy workshop and had oh, we
had about 40 people register,which shocked me.
I mean, it was right after theholidays, so people are still in
like Christmas hangover land,and I heard from so many that
(44:16):
this is what their soul neededright now.
What the research is showing,particularly in Western culture
but this is global is that weare facing a human energy crisis
, and the World HealthOrganization actually named it
that and so many of the globalconsulting firms are showing
that people are stressed out,their emotional health is down,
(44:38):
they are struggling, if notsuffering, and this is crossing
industries, this is crossingpositions, all of these things.
And so people are searching.
They are searching for new waysof thinking, new ways of living
that will help them not feel sosoulfully exhausted, and that's
how I positioned it.
(44:59):
Are you ready to light, setyour life on fire?
Are you ready to feel deeplypassionate and in love with your
life again?
And if so, let's find your ickyguy.
And so this was an all-dayworkshop.
We had 40 people and I used theFIRE framework that I shared
with you, nick around.
Let's explore what sparks you,what fuels you, what helps your
(45:20):
FIRE breathe and where areas ofyour life that you want to lean
into.
I introduced them to whatIkigai is, and Nick provides
wonderful tools when you gothrough his coaching
certification program of how youcan explain this to people, and
shared with them Miyake Cameoand her flower with the seven
(45:42):
Ikigai needs plus purpose, andso really laying the groundwork.
So there was a small educativeelement to it of let me inform
you as to what Ikigai is notwhat you're going to find on
Google, right what Ikigai is.
And then let's really dig intothis work and apply it to your
life.
And so use the Ikigai 9 scale tomeasure, and then started to
(46:04):
look at these different areasusing Kamiya's flower.
Well, I should say it's Nick'sflower, it's Kamiya's seven
needs of Ikigai plus purpose,for which Nick has created this
beautiful flower metaphor.
So, using the flower metaphorand then applying that to their
lives where are you lacking?
Where's an area that you wantto lean into?
(46:25):
And what was really beautifulis within those 40 individuals
who came, which happened to beall women.
This was not women exclusive,but it happened to be all women.
But you built this beautifulcommunity of women where they
could share what is going on intheir life, what are they
struggling with?
And it yielded some beautifuldiscoveries.
I had people who followed upafterwards to say, oh my gosh,
(46:47):
this was transformative for me.
This changed my life.
This helped me say this is whatI want to do in the next season
.
This is who I want to be.
These are the tweaks that Iwant to make.
It gave them permissionparticularly women to prioritize
themselves right by saying thatthis is an entire body of work
that is showing this is whathelps humans thrive, and so you
(47:11):
need to prioritize yourself.
And the beautiful nature of whyit was so transformative is, yes
, as a facilitator, you need tomake sure that you are creating
a meaningful learning experienceand you are creating the
conditions for people to betransformed.
But I believe that primarily,it's because of what Ikigai
(47:32):
represents is that it is truly adifferent way for you to look
at your life and what brings youjoy and meaning, and we don't
have a lot of that here in theUnited States.
I'm not saying it doesn't existthere are different elements of
it but we're not often able togo to a workshop on ikigai
something that's just completelynew and different and so it was
(47:56):
very well attended.
The assessments afterwards,people raved about it and now
want to do more of it.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
Well, there you go, and I'm not surprised.
I would have loved to beenthere as a student.
I imagine you're an amazingfacilitator.
You have I mean, speaking ofenergy you're not lacking energy
.
Maybe that's where the energycrisis is going.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
You're sucking up all the energy.
I'm sucking all of the energyout of people, Nick.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
But it is a joy to talk with you.
Always, you do have thispositivity and this thirst for
life, thirst for knowledge,which brings us to what you call
yourself occasionally, yeah, asparkologist.
That's right, you've touched onit and I think our audience
probably has an idea.
You obviously spark life inothers.
(48:47):
But, yeah, what do you mean bybeing a sparkologist?
Speaker 1 (48:52):
Well, listen, I'm not .
I wish I had some sort ofprofound response to that.
I spent a good portion of mycareer in communications and
marketing, so I know how tobrand myself.
But there's two things in that.
(49:12):
One is that my company I namedmy company Light Echo, and the
only relevance to that at all isthat Light Echo is a term in
astronomy, so not astrology, butastronomy study of the universe
and a light echo is describingthat when we look into the night
sky, when you see a starexploding, a supernova happening
, we're not actually witnessingthat event, that what we're
(49:36):
witnessing is the lightrefracting, reflecting off space
gas and space dust, and so whatwe're perceiving is light that
has occurred in some other way,and I thought this is very much
how I want to live my life andwhat I want to do in the work is
that I see that we are alllight echoes of the people who
(50:00):
have invested in us, and I wantto do the same, and so I've
always been very drawn to thisidea of shine your light.
For me, I'm a woman of faith,and so there's a scripture
element to this of shine yourlight, especially in the
darkness, because this is whatpeople are craving.
And so, when it came to theSparkologist, is that I don't
always have the opportunities togo and do these lifelong
(50:21):
journeys with people.
Most of the time I'm coming inand I'm doing a year-long
engagement, coachingrelationship with someone, or
I'm coming in and doing aworkshop, or I'm going on stage
or I'm on a podcast or I'mhosting a podcast, and those are
sparks.
Those are sparks of opportunity.
Can I spark a new way forsomeone to look at their life,
for someone to think aboutthemselves?
(50:42):
Can I spark something that willlight them up so that then they
become that light echo andthere are ripple effects to that
.
And so I have this word pictureof the more of us that are
sparked and really become onfire, that what a beautiful
world we could create together.
And, my goodness, does theworld need it.
(51:02):
There is so much pain and hurtand harm and tragedy and hate
and all of this darkness.
And so when you choose to liveyour life as a light echo, man,
that brilliance, that warmth,that radiance can transform
people's lives.
And so I look as a sparkologist, I am studying and I'm living
(51:24):
into all of the ways that I canspark that inside the souls of
other people, not for my own egoor edification, but, my
goodness, like if I can sparksomething in someone and they
come alive and they do the workthat they're meant to do.
Man, what a beautiful worldthat we can work together.
So, and then I just branded itthe Sparkologist Works.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
It touches on the need of a bright future.
I think so.
Maybe part of your work doesthat.
You're the spark who createsthe spark for others to have a
bright future, and we want that.
We want to believe our life ismoving forward in a positive
direction.
So that's very inspiring work.
(52:07):
You do so much, so, yeah,moving forward.
How do you intend to includeIkigai in your work?
More workshops, speeches,coaching.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
So, yes, in all of these different ways, the work
that I do is I'm a professionalspeaker, I'm a consultant, I'm a
coach, and for the professionalspeaking side, I've built a
keynote all around this conceptof living your life on fire.
What does it mean to have yoursoul on fire?
(52:39):
And I introduced the idea thatIkigai is the solution to
burning brightly without burningout, and so I have built a
keynote speech around that andhave already started to deliver,
also, professional developmentworkshops.
So I've gone in and I'vedelivered this keynote to a
medical system, to a wholehospital, a whole group of
(53:00):
medical system, and then havecome in and done leadership
workshops specifically ondeveloping Ikigai in the
leadership team.
So trainings around that,workshops around that I'm going
to continue to do that.
And in my coaching work too is,particularly when I'm working
with leadership coaches orpeople who are looking at life
(53:20):
transitions, how can leaninginto your Ikigai give you some
wisdom and guidance about thedecisions that you're making
next?
And then, nick, I live this.
I mean this isn't justsomething that, oh, I thought
was really cool, which I did,but the more I mean I did right,
like this is, it's really cool,and so I want to learn more
about this and I mean, oh, and Iget to learn from a really cool
(53:44):
Aussie.
So, yes, please.
And then you really dig intothe work and you realize that if
you choose to let it marinateinto your soul, or if you let
your soul marinate in it, man,the deliciousness that comes
from how much your life, theflavor that it can bring into
(54:05):
your life, do you like themetaphor that I'm doing here?
Is anybody hungry yet.
But I'm being serious, I livethis and, in particular for me,
one of the areas that I have tobe continuously mindful of is,
if I'm talking about that firetriangle metaphor, is that
oxygen?
And so what do I need to do toensure I am giving my life the
(54:29):
utori that it needs?
And the Iba show Because, man,I've got the spark nailed down,
I've got the fuel nailed down,I've got all of that, and I can
find that my own light, my ownfire, can get suffocated very
quickly.
So, nick, I'm being serious.
It infuses all aspects of mylife, personally and
professionally.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Wonderful.
That's amazing to hear.
It is kind of strange.
I think I've shared this before.
I'm an unlikely source to beteaching this concept, being an
Aussie, and I guess it is oddthat we're foreigners to the
concept and I guess it is oddthat we're foreigners to the
concept yet it's become asignificant part of our lives
and work and I've been reallyimpressed with what you've done,
(55:10):
because it wasn't that long ago, you know we finished our
one-on-one eight sessions.
I think it was 10 sessions.
Speaker 1 (55:17):
Because I ask a lot of questions people, because I'm
the Y kid.
Speaker 2 (55:26):
So modules went over because Katie asked Nick 50
questions that he had to answer.
That's a joy to me.
I don't mind a few moresessions if we maintain this
connection and, more importantly, if you go out and use it,
which you've done.
So that's been really inspiringfor me and it's like wow,
you've already used this inworkshops, in keynotes, in work
(55:47):
with companies and it soundslike it's having an impact on
other people.
So it's like that light echoeffect you touched on.
So that's really inspiring.
So I'm sure some people wouldlove to learn more about you and
, who knows, maybe even workwith you.
So where can people find you?
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Everywhere.
No, I'm kidding Nick.
I am a light echo.
I'm everywhere.
Um, my website is lightechococo.
You can find me there.
I'm also on lots of socials, ifyour listeners are on LinkedIn,
facebook, instagram.
I'm all under the handle ofKatie Sando and I just love to
(56:33):
connect with people,particularly people who want to
make the world a better place.
Man, if you're listening tothis and you want to make the
world a better place, you're mypeople and we need to connect.
Speaker 2 (56:45):
There you go.
Now.
I can't end without asking thisquestion.
We've just thirst for knowledgeand this constant sort of
qualification, not qualification, but you just love learning.
So what are you working on orwhat are you learning at the
moment?
Speaker 1 (57:04):
Okay, get ready for this, All right.
So I have two books runningconcurrently.
One is on the audio version onAudible called Atomic Habits.
That's phenomenal.
If you haven't read that,that's a great one.
The other one that I'm readingin print at night is Necessary
Endings by Dr Henry Cloud, andit's really looking at in
(57:28):
business and in life there areseasons for everything and when
is the time that you need to cutthings or people or situations
and move on from them, and soit's really rich, good stuff.
So that's what I'm consumingfrom a book standpoint, and
currently I am getting certifiedin emotional intelligence, and
(57:50):
so this week, in fact, was anintensive, long certification
process and I will take my examand hopefully pass that, because
that, I think, is anotherreally key element for people's
overall wellbeing and feeling asense of thriving is, as you're
looking at your life, reallyunderstanding for yourself, how
(58:13):
self-aware are you, how well areyou able to express connections
and interpersonal relationships, how well do you respond under
pressure and in challenge and indecision-making and the role of
emotions and all of that.
And then I'm not going to tellyou I might have two more things
keyed up that I might work oncertifications later this year,
(58:34):
nick.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
Wow, not surprised.
Well, it's amazing how muchinformation you retain.
At times, I thought I waslearning more from you than you
were from me.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
I'm going to pause and say real quick, nick, that
this is your podcast.
I understand that, but I'm goingto give you kudos because
that's when you know you're agreat teacher, is when you're
approaching the space oflearning from your students as
much as they are from you.
That's when you know you'recreating a space where learning
can thrive, and that's beautiful.
(59:06):
So you have set it up well, andI do want to also say that I
know you think sometimes it'sodd that you're this Aussie
who's bringing icky guy to theWestern world, and I couldn't
think of no better person,because you've lived in the
culture, you speak the language,you read it and so you're able
(59:29):
to not just literally translateit but culturally translate it.
And in the combination that youhave a deep respect for Japan,
for the Japanese people, and youare really passionate about
ensuring the integrity of theIkigai concept is brought in a
(59:50):
way that respects that countryand the people within it, and so
that's why I think you arebeautifully positioned to do
this work and I don't think itought at all.
I'm grateful.
Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Well, that's very kind of you.
So I accept those comments withmuch gratitude.
And, yeah, you were a greatstudent.
You're now a great fun friend,and I can't wait for us to meet
in person, whether that be here,there or in Japan.
So thank you, katie, for beingthe spark in my life at times
(01:00:23):
and for joining me today.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Thank you, Nick.
I always, always enjoy ourconversation.
It's so rich and fun.
I appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Likewise Okay, bye for now.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com