Thinking Through the Body: Cultural Perspectives on Embodied Intelligence with Igor de Almeida

How can we gain a deeper understanding of foreign concepts like ikigai and saudade?

While these concepts can be challenging to define, our bodily sensations can offer valuable insights into their deeper meanings.

In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Igor de Almeida to explore how cultural concepts like ikigai and saudade are embodied in our physical experiences.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
My guest today on the Ikigaipodcast is Igor del Almeida, a
cultural psychologist, a socialpsychologist specializing in
culture.
Igor's research examines howculture influences people in

(00:33):
various psychological aspects,such as emotions, thought and
behavior.
Currently, igor is working atKyoto University as a junior
associate professor.
Welcome to the podcast, igor,and thank you for your time
today.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me andfor having me on this podcast
and I hope I can answer a fewquestions and I hope it's
helpful.
What I have to say is not tooboring, hopefully.

Speaker 1 (00:59):
It won't be boring and I'm sure you can answer
these questions.
We've prepared and, yeah,really appreciate you being here
.
And you actually came by way ofrecommendation from jamila
rodriguez, who was a guest onepisodes 56 and 60.
So, yeah, it was good to chatto jamila about ikigai and I

(01:23):
think she's living.
She's still in okinawa she's inokinawa.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
She came to kyoto a year or so ago maybe more than a
year and she gave apresentation and we had a
meeting afterwards to talk aboutour research and she works in
anthropology, which is a bitdifferent from psychology, but
there are a few overlaps.
And then we started to discussthe possibility of some kind of

(01:51):
collaboration and eventually westarted discussing emotions and
we decided to write somethingtogether and then this article
came out, this article aboutikigai and saudadeji and
embodiments of emotions yes,we're going to dive into that,

(02:12):
but maybe, before we do, wouldyou like to give us some
background and as to how youcame to be living in japan,
because you're you've settledthere.
Yeah, it seems a bit unusual,but since I know many people who
are in a very similar situationto me, I find it common somehow

(02:35):
.
But yeah, I'm from Brazil, Iwas born and raised in Brazil
and 12 years ago, in 2013, Icame to Japan to be a student at
Kyoto University.
In the beginning, I thoughtabout staying in Japan for two
or three years and then comingback, moving somewhere else, but

(02:56):
then I extended a couple oftimes and eventually I decided
to stay in Japan.
Well, I got a stable job at anational university in Japan.
I got married, have a family.
Then it gets more difficult tomove to another country or even
to go back to Brazil.
That's basically my story.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, Once you're married with kids, it's pretty
hard to move.
Well, thank you for sharing allthat.
So let's dive into your workthat you did with Jamila.
So, in July of 2024, youpublished a paper titled Ikigai
and Sudachi Cultural MeaningsLived Through the Body.
In it, you point out thatstudies on those emotions tend

(03:42):
to focus on linguistic orcognitive aspects related to the
emotions and the cultures thatoriginated them.
In this article, you argue thatthere is another essential
dimension that needs to beconsidered when studying
culture-specific emotions thebody and its embodied experience
, which has been this theme I'vespoken to Jamila about.

(04:05):
But yeah, first we need totouch on the meaning of ikigai,
which I guess my listeners doknow, and then sadaji, which is
a fascinating word and concept.
So how do you define the twoconcepts?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
I define.
You and your listeners know waymore about Ikigai than I do,
but the way I see those twoconcepts is as what we call
culturally specific emotions.
So we have those words that arenot translatable, or I mean

(04:41):
other people can understand theconcepts but it's really hard to
translate and there's no singleword that would convey the same
meaning.
When I talk about this, theseemotions, I start using one very
simple example of Komorebi.
I don't know if you know thisword.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Oh yeah, the sunlight passing through the tree leaves
or trees to create shadow, andlight, yeah, exactly so.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
This is something that we all can see, we all
understand what it is, but butin most languages we don't have
a words, one specific word, todescribe this phenomenon yeah,
even like a direct.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
A direct translation would be like leaking light or
something.
Yeah, leaking light yeah, soit's.
Yeah, it's fascinating how manyjapan has these untranslatable
concepts or words.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah yeah, right, uh, and even when you say leaking
light, those are two words,right yeah, yeah so you need at
least two words to describe it.
So in in Japanese you have manyof those words that are very
specific to a context, and inother languages as well.
I forgot to prepare someexamples in English, but you

(05:55):
probably have words that arevery common in English but in
other languages you have toexplain.
You need a while to explainwhat it means.
One example I use in classes isbolter in English, but it's not
used.
It's an old word.
It means to dance in a clumsyway but enjoying it with a lot

(06:18):
of enjoyment.
So when we say in English,dance as if no one is watching.
When we say in English, dance asif no one is watching, I see
there is one word to describethis, but those would be
examples of words not related toemotions.
When it comes to emotions, thenyou have those culturally
specific emotions such as ikigaiand saudade, and in German

(06:40):
there is schadenfreude thatpeople just borrow the words in
English and other languages todescribe this feeling of
enjoyment when something badhappens to someone you don't
like that much.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
We do feel that though.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, everybody feels those things, but you don't
have a word to describe it.
No, precisely.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
So ikigai and sodaji would fall within this category
it is a fascinating concept andI I started to wonder and I
think I've mentioned this on thepodcast before but you know, is
there a word that's culturallyunique to australia, that we do
use, maybe occasionally or veryrarely in a casual context, but

(07:29):
also has deep cultural value?
And the only word I could comeup with was mateship.
Mateship, it's very hard to,yeah, it's like hikigai, it's
hard to define and if you ask 10Australians what's mateship,
you'd probably get 10 differentanswers.
So it's obviously related tofriendship, but it's also tied
to our history.

(07:50):
It's tied to our involvement inworld war one.
It goes beyond friendship andnow that we're a multicultural
it might even have a slightlydifferent meaning.
And we don't really, I mean wesay g'day mates and all these
kind of good on your mate kindof expressions, and we don't
really.
I mean we say g'day mates andall these kind of good on your
mate kind of expressions, but wedon't use mateship that much,

(08:12):
but there was some considerationof even putting it into, I
guess, our equivalent of likethe constitution.
So it is culturally significant.
And I guess it would tie to someemotions.
You probably would feelmateship, but other than that I
couldn't think of any otherwords that are uniquely
Australian.

(08:32):
We certainly have uniqueexpressions, but not really
words, so it is.
Yeah, it is fascinating howculture produces these words and
Japan seems to have so many.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, right, especially when you compare to
European languages.
Because if you compare toChinese or to Korean, or when I
present these ideas to Chineseor Korean people, they often
come up with their own words andconcepts.
They're very similar, but Idon't know, I don't know how
unique or how similar thoseconcepts and words can be.

(09:06):
So he gave the example ofmateship.
In england, they, they have oneword uh, there's a margie.
I think it's margie, that's howit is pronounced, and they say
that they only use it over thereand in english it's quite a
widespread language.
Yeah, so you will find thosewords and concepts in basically

(09:29):
every country if you look for it.
That's another thing.
As we go on with our lives, wedon't realize which words are
unique, which words you justcannot translate or use in other
languages.
Or even when you go to anothercountry that speaks the same
language, just you cannotcommunicate using that word.

(09:52):
So if you go to the UK or tothe US and talk about mateship,
I don't know if people will beable to understand.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
I think people in the uk would definitely us might, I
think people would, most peoplewould kind of get an idea.
Oh okay, it's obviously relatedto make you know friendship and
it's even hard for australiansto define I see so it's kind of
like some of these japanesewords.

(10:24):
You know, you Japanese, whatdoes ikigai mean?
And you'll often hear a lot ofsilence and go musukashina.
Like you know, that's hard toexplain.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
It's hard to define words, right?
My former supervisor doesresearch on happiness and one of
the tasks that she uses is toask people what is happiness?
So what is happiness for you?
And it's, um, it's a word thateverybody understands, it is in
every language, it is present inevery language, but it's hard

(10:56):
to define, right?
Uh, you will find manydefinitions, but it's uh hard to
define.
It's such a basic word yeah,because feeling.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
If you said something like, oh, feeling joy, well
then, what's joy?

Speaker 2 (11:10):
yes, it's hard to get that.
But to go back to your questionand try to answer your question
, so ikigai, I would go with theclassic the reason to be alive,
to do things, your essentialmotivation to do whatever you're
doing, like to go on with yourday, especially to dedicate

(11:32):
yourself to some task or craftor work, job, et cetera.
But Ikigai, I could define this, but well, we'll talk more
about Ikigai later on.
But there's more to this thanjust the definition.
Right, about saudade, I thinkit's less known by your audience

(11:56):
, yeah for sure.
So saudade is similar tonostalgia.
It is an emotion, a feeling,and it's what we try to, what we
express when we say I miss youor I miss someone else.
It's a bit complex because it'sambiguous.
So it is a good feeling, but atthe same time it's a negative
feeling, a sad feeling.

(12:17):
So you're sad because you missyour family or you miss your
friends that live in anothercountry.
So if you're sad but at thesame time, if you're good, if
you're a little bit happybecause you have those friends
and you have this goodrelationship with them, that is
good enough that you miss them.
So when you have this ambiguous, this positive and negative

(12:40):
feeling together inside of you.
That's when you feel saudadeand you, you reflect upon those
memories, etc.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
That would be the basic definition of it yeah, I
was thinking about this afterreading your paper and I thought
I lost, I guess, a motherfigure about a year ago and I'm
53 and I think from the age ofeight.
She'd always been in my lifeand she died of cancer last year
and it was, you know, it's verydrawn out cancer and she went

(13:16):
through a lot of pain and bothmy brother and I were with her,
by her bit side at times,holding her hand and helping her
sons who were really strugglingto do that.
You know they couldn't do that.
So, yeah, and I have all thesefond memories of her and
incredibly grateful for all thatshe gave me.

(13:37):
But I just will occasionallyhave these thoughts oh, I miss
Libby and she's not, I can'tcall her, I can't talk to her,
and it'll kind of just pop in myhead randomly and I'll feel,
yeah, both this sense of lossbut also gratitude that she was
in my life.

(13:57):
So would that be a feeling ofSadaji?

Speaker 2 (14:01):
I would say, yes, that's exactly how we describe
it, how we feel it, and so, eventhough you're not a native
speaker of Portuguese, you feelthe same emotion.
We share this same feeling.
Right, we just don't share theword Sadadji, but yes, and it

(14:25):
appears in these moments.
They're very I won't sayimportant and heavy in our lives
when we lose someone.
So, as he describes, there isthis negative feeling of the
loss and grief and everythingthat comes together, but at the
same time, there's thisgratitude and, uh, this

(14:48):
nostalgia of all the goodmoments you had together.
So that's the, that's theemotion I would say and so it
sounds like it's colloquial.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
You might use it every day, but in your paper you
reference that it's also usedin poetry A lot, where there are
some of these amazingdescriptions of what it means.
I might quote a few A worm thatgaunts at my heart's core, or I

(15:19):
only know it is bliss thatpains me, which is a
contradiction, and always tearscome into my eyes, but deeper
pity fills my heart.
So I think that indicates howdeep it is emotionally.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yes, yes, what is interesting is that those
examples, they don't come fromsomeone who speaks Portuguese.
Oh, wow, Exactly.
So this word is more known as aPortuguese word, but it exists
in some languages that areclosely related, such as the
Creole spoken in Cape Verde andGalician.

(16:02):
And these examples they comefrom a.
They were written by a Galician.
And these examples they comefrom a.
They were written by a Galicianpoet and she had a bit of a
tragic life and her poetry is abit tragic and heavy and full of
these extreme emotions.
So, yeah, the descriptions,they sound controversial and

(16:27):
sometimes even impossible.
It's something that I forgot tobring the example, but some
people would say that'ssomething that is very good, but
it might kill me eventually.
Oh, I'm not sure.
So, yeah, when you go to theextremes of saudade, then you
have those expressions and thosedescriptions which are common

(16:51):
in poetry.
They're common in music as well.
I was discussing with anothercolleague one of these days and
they're trying to find newexamples.
So the example you just read isfrom the 19th century.
So quite a while ago I waschecking current music, current
Brazilian music, and even inwhat is called Brazilian funk,

(17:12):
that is popular music that is abit vulgar and sexual, very
sexual.
They still talk about saudade,but then it's more of a sexual
way like I miss, and then I missthose days when you and me
would be doing those sexualactivities, and then they'll be
very explicit about this, butthey still use, uh, the same

(17:36):
concept.
So it can go from um classical,classical poetry with all these
figures and metaphors that area bit complex, to vulgar and
vulgar current music.
So just to say that you can seeit everywhere and in daily life

(17:59):
we also use the words all thetime.
So you gave the example of amotherly figure that is very
important to you and you hadgreat moments and we use, we
talk about those moments, thoseimportant figures in our lives,
but we also talk about trivialthings, so I can talk about how

(18:21):
I feel saudade, of the sweets orcakes I used to eat when I was
a child, for example, and thosesilly examples.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
So it's almost like I mean that context reminds me of
natsukashi, that Japanese wordwhich took me a long time to
understand.
And then I realized, oh, wedon't say oh, how nostalgic or
something.
We say, oh, those, yeah, thosecandies remind me of my
childhood, or that song remindsme of my childhood, or this

(18:57):
memory, this fond memory, butyeah, so Sadaji sounds like it's
got a lot of depth and breadthin usage, can be used in poetry
and can be used in obviouslydaily conversation and then
popular culture, where it's abit vulgar or graphic.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Very graphic, very graphic, the ones I found,
because I was looking for Sadajiand I found music that was very
descriptive, very, extremelygraphic, and it was funny
because I didn't expect it.
I wasn't expecting it, but itis similar to Natsukashi, also

(19:39):
in Japanese.
It's hard to translate, and soNatsukashi can be a translation,
but also some people talk aboutwhich is, um, it's more sad,
it's more negative, so those twowords are related, and when I

(19:59):
talk to japanese people and Itell them that we have a word
that is a mixture of Natsukashiand Setsunai, they think those
concepts they shouldn't mixtogether.
So it's a bit complicated,right.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
That's fascinating and it really indicates how the
different cultures end up withthese different words that we
can relate to, but maybe notfully.
Maybe it takes a while for usto understand and perhaps, I
mean I believe, you really needto live in Japan for extended
period of time to reallyunderstand some of these daily

(20:38):
expressions or words.
So I'm sure that's the casewith something like Portuguese.
But I guess what's come to mindis why did you choose to
compare Ikigai and Sadajispecifically for this study?
Because I guess you could havecompared Natsukashi with Sadaji,

(21:00):
for example.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
I guess it probably relates to the embodied
experience of both the words.
The reason is more professionalthan personal, so I had these
couple of meetings with Jamila.
So Jamila is also a nativePortuguese speaker and her
research is about Ikigai andembodiment.
I'm pretty sure she does otherkinds of research, but one of
her projects is about ikigai andembodiment.
I'm pretty sure she does otherkinds of research, but one of

(21:27):
her projects is about this.
In my case, I focus on thoseemotions that cannot be
translated, and one of them issaudade.
Then we were trying to reachsome common ground to start a
new project and we ended upchoosing to compare Saudade and
Ikigai, as those two emotionsare culturally unique and that's

(21:50):
something I do and they alsohave a strong component of
embodiment.
So the way that people feelthem is unique in the sense that
once you feel your Ikigai, youknow what you have to do in your
life.
Then you just know and it's thebody telling you that's what
you should do.
And saudade also, when youthink about someone and you feel

(22:14):
like you're about to cry or anyof the other descriptions from
poetry or music, then you knowwhat you're feeling is saudade.
That person, that moment wasimportant to you.
It's basically a mixture.
I didn't know much aboutembodiment before working on
this project and I think jamilanever thought that much about a

(22:36):
key guy as a something specificto japan and hard to translate
and uh, so it was a professionalreason nice oh good reason.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
I find both very interesting and um, and probably
that's why I do this kind ofwork right yeah, I mean, it's
just occurred to me that saudadecould be considered like an
ikigai emotion, because itsounds like it stems from
something meaningful in yourlife.
You know my example of losingsomeone who was important to me

(23:14):
and, yeah, obviously I'm not sadall the time when I think of
her.
Most of the time I have thesehappy memories and it's more
like this tinge of sadness thatI can't, and just the memory of
her and that emotion makes mefeel, yeah, feel better or feel
like life is good and I won'tforget her.
So, yeah, they're obviouslyrelatable in that.

(23:35):
Oh, this is something you feeland embody and that's yeah, it's
fascinating how it's not justemotional, it's embodied and you
can who.
It's not just emotional, it'sembodied and who knows how you
feel it?
You feel it.
Maybe you breathe slowly or youtingle or you do start to cry,

(23:56):
so, yeah.
So, moving on, you write thatthe self and culture grounded in
embodiment.
Would you like to expand onthat?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Culture and self-grounded embodiment.
Yes, I think it's this ideathat in, let's say, traditional
psychological research, we use alot of questionnaires and we
ask lots of questions, trying toget something specific that is
more cognitive about, but thosethings are extremely hard to

(24:37):
explain.
So I can try to explain to youwhat is the feeling in my body
of saudade or of my ikigai, and,um, it probably won't.
It won't convey the message.
Uh, completely right, you haveto feel by yourself, saudade,
and and that's a very personal,unique experience.
So you described your loss.

(24:57):
I can relate to that.
I can think about the timeswhen something similar happened
to me, but I won't be feelingyour experience.
Right, I can't be.
I can't borrow your body for amoment so I can know what you're
feeling.
Sure, and that's the idea thatthe body will tell you what to
do and then you can make itconscious, but only to a certain

(25:22):
extent.
We cannot access everythingconsciously.
I think it's more.
That is the idea, and, um, wecan expand this psychologically
to think that many things thatwe do, many things that we feel,
are just unconscious.
Yeah.
And I think that's the main idearight here.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Well, that all makes sense.
I guess they're both personalIkigai and Sandaji and
subjective personal Ikigai andSandaji and subjective, and your
experience of the feeling,emotion and embodiment.
It will be totally unique toyou.
I guess I mean a good exampleof maybe shared Ikigai is when

(26:09):
people go and support their team, the football, and they kick
the winning goal and everyone'sscreaming for joy and happy.
You probably think, oh,everyone's pretty much
experiencing the same feeling,but maybe someone who's young
compared to someone who's old,and maybe this old person,

(26:31):
finally, it's the first timetheir team's won the World Cup
their experience would bedifferent.
Yeah, you know, because meaningand context.
So, yeah, we can certainlyshare, I imagine, most of our
emotions, but they are stillunique to us, I guess the

(26:51):
embodiment.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
You're right, but I agree with you and there is
research showing that people doshare emotions to some degree,
and the common examples are justlike you described.
So you go to see a footballmatch or some other sport or go
to a concert and you and yourfriends and people you don't

(27:15):
know they're all expectators youhave more or less the same
feeling.
To some degree it is shared andit's the same thing All of you
are feeling, but to some degreeit's also very unique because it
depends on your life.
As I said, someone who's newgoes to the match or someone

(27:39):
who's young goes to the match isdifferent to someone who's
older and has seen many matches.
So there is some degree ofsharedness and some degree of
uniqueness to the emotionalexperience.
Definitely.
It's hard to investigate,though I was going to say.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Probably a better example is when you go and your
team's losing and you see somepeople in this uncontrollable
rage and they're swearing andscreaming and making it, you
know, quite unpleasant forpeople around, and then your
friend supports the same teamand they're just a little bit
frustrated or disappointed, andso, yeah, you can really see the

(28:24):
embodied experience, with theseangry people pulling their hair
out, or you know about to hitsomething.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Definitely yes.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
So so yeah, it's kind of funny.
There's a, an event, the teamloses, there's this emotion and
then people embody it, you know,extremely or very differently
yes, definitely, definitely.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
It's very, quite different, quite different, and
also not only the embod but thebehaviors that will come after.
So, when we study emotions, oneof the ways of understanding
emotions is that an emotion is afeeling that prepares you to
engage in some kind of behavior.
So if you're happy, you'regoing to celebrate.

(29:10):
If you're sad, you're going tocry.
But also it will influence howyou connect to other people, how
you interact with other people,right?
So if you I'm sorry to use youas an example, but you shared
your loss and you want to talkto your brother, you can either
be sad together and grieve andjust, I don't know, hug each

(29:33):
other, et cetera, etc.
Or, based on the sameexperience, you can, uh, be
nostalgic and, okay, let's lookat, uh at photos together, sure,
and we live again those momentsfrom the past.
So that birthday party or orsomething, some other events,

(29:53):
and, based on theory, onpsychological theory, the idea
is that the emotion you hadbefore interacting with your
brother would guide yourbehavior.
So if you're going to celebratetogether or if you're going to
be sad together, that would bethe idea.
But then, going back to thefootball match, this could

(30:17):
change drastically.
So people can be sad togetherand just go home and then go to
work the next day, or they candestroy everything and be
violent.
Yes, you never know, right.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, yeah, sports, certainly a passion for many
people and perhaps a source ofIkigai.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
And you touch on sources and triggers and
characteristics of both Ikigaiand Baji.
So do you want to touch on?
I think my audience would havea pretty good idea of Ikigai.
It's just the family, friends,work, hobbies, community social

(31:01):
interaction, nature.
What about Sadaji?
What are considered sources andtriggers?

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Based on our research and my experience as well, I
would say it's when you feellonely for some reason or when
the experiences you have now donot satisfy you completely.
Then you're eating something.
You go to this new restaurantyou never tried before and you

(31:33):
go there.
You have some expectations, butthen the food is not so great
and then you miss, uh, the foodthat your mother used to make
back home, or that smallrestaurant that had very nice
food that he used to go.
So it can be like this.
But also when you just missyour family or friends or

(31:54):
partner, etc.
So it can derive fromdissatisfaction or just
loneliness.
I would say it's when you misssomething, when you feel
incomplete for some reason, andit can be minor or it can be
very big.
It can be a loss of a person,but it can also be after lunch

(32:16):
you used to have a small cup ofcoffee and you cannot have it
anymore, so you miss it.
So those would be some triggersof saudade.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
It seems very much contextual.
So both food could be a sourceof ikigai and sadaji.
And obviously the experience.
If you go to a restaurant and,oh, this food is just like how
my mother or grandmother made it, you'd probably go back to that
restaurant.
And then, as you said, if yougo and you have this expectation

(32:50):
and then it's nothing like yourmother's or it's disappointing
I guess it's almost sort ofanti-Ikigai.
It's like, oh, I won't comeback and I'm disappointed, but
because of that I miss his home,I miss my mother's cooking.
So it seems like Sardarji ismore of a trigger and Ikigai is

(33:16):
more of a source, because I'venever considered triggers, I've
never seen any papers where theyuse the word trigger.
For Ikigai they usually sayobject or source, but it sounds
like Sadaji is more.
It's a trigger that sets thisemotion, this sadness, this
longing.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Honestly, I never thought about these two words in
particular source versustrigger.
But I totally agree with you.
Yeah, saudade is more.
It's very contextual, as youmentioned.
So, because something happens,then I feel saudade, but it's
not something that I will beconsciously looking for, if that

(34:01):
makes sense.
So, ikigai, I have my ikigaiand it motivates me to do things
and every time I feeldemotivated I might go back to
the source While saudade.
I'm not looking forward tofeeling saudade in that sense,
but if I feel saudade, thenlet's say I feel saudade about

(34:24):
my hometown or my friends fromwhen I was a teenager.
Then I might listen to musicfrom that time, from when I was
a teenager.
Then I might listen to musicfrom that time.
I see, but it's still a trigger.
I'll be in that saudade moodand I'll be just enjoying or
savoring the mood.
Well, Ikigai works in adifferent way.

(34:47):
I have the feeling that's avery personal feeling that
saudade will push you backwardsin time, while ikigai push you
forward in time.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, well, that's what Mihiko Kamiya basically
says.
It's this feeling that yourlife is moving forward, and you
know, memories can be a sourceof ikigai, but generally it is
about life satisfaction andhaving this bright future.
So Ikigai is kind of proactive,like it's.
You know what's meaningful,what's valuable, what do I enjoy

(35:21):
, what gives me life, and thenyou kind of proactively pursue
it.
It sounds like Sadaji is morepassive, like something triggers
this emotion and thislongingness or sadness, and
maybe you kind of live in thatemotion for a few minutes and it

(35:42):
might change your behavior.
And then, as you said, youmight go and listen to some of
your favorite music from the 70sor 90s or whatever.
Yeah, so they're relatable, butquite different, quite
different, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
I wonder if they can overlap, if you can feel Sardaji
about when you were a youngadult, a teenager full of dreams
, and you start thinking aboutthis, or I did so many things
that and during that time, anduh, and I want to go back to
that, yeah, and then that canbecome your ikigai.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
but I don't know if people actually feel that way
yeah, I think, if we're talkingabout memories and nostalgia, I
guess it would be mostly framedas I'm glad I had those times or
they were great times, but I'msure they would come with this
feeling oh, I wish I could goback, and maybe it's not so much

(36:45):
regretful, it's just thisdesire to go back.
But maybe Sadaji has thatelement of a little bit tinged
with regret or more, you know,sadness.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
I wouldn't say regret is related to Sadaji.
It's just wanting to go back,but not necessarily doing go
back to do things differently,it's just to live that moment
again.
Yeah.
So you won the prize a coupleof years ago and you want to go
back to that moment of receivingthe prize and have this

(37:19):
sensation again.
Yeah.
This euphoria or et cetera, butI would say like, so that's just
more about also I don't knowhow to put it in a good way but
when you feel troubled and ifyou're disconnected to the world
, to reconnect to people and tothe world and to reinterpret

(37:45):
what happened to you and whathappened in life and then
connect to the moment.
But it's always looking to thepast, sure, or to an
impossibility in the present.
So you can feel saudade towardssomeone who is not here anymore

(38:07):
, but you can also feel saudade,I don't know.
I go to work and I feel saudadetowards my, my wife and
daughter, right, so I I wantedto, I want to be with them, but
I also have to work, so I willhave to wait and this would help
me interpret this moment, thismoment, my daily life.

(38:28):
So there are things I need todo.
I can't be with them the wholetime.
They also need their time aloneor doing some other activities.
But I would say that one of thekey differences is looking to
the past and looking to thefuture, but what would be common
is connecting to the presentboth emotions.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
I've got one thought that came to mind.
Imagine you're with a group offriends and this has probably
happened to both of us whereyou're all going on a holiday
and then for some reason youcannot go and all your mates go
off.
Or even just the idea you knowyour mates are going off on the

(39:12):
weekend and then on the weekendthey do go and you're missing
out.
Would that create saudade?

Speaker 2 (39:20):
That's a good question.
I wouldn't describe it assaudade.
I wouldn't use these words.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oh really, Even if you were sad or disappointed,
you'd use something else.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, or maybe I would else.
Yeah, or maybe I would.
That's, that's a very I'mtrying to think about times in
the past when this happens.
I would say that would feelsaudade of uh, of the times that
when my mates were here not ona trip, and we'll be hanging out
and doing something here, butnot that, not that I'm missing

(39:53):
out or I'm disappointed.
That would be slightlydifferent, different, okay.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
So there is, yeah, I mean I used to get grounded a
lot and my friends would go offand see like the latest you know
Arnold Schwarzenegger movie orsomething.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
And I understand the feeling, but I wouldn't use
saudade for this one, uh,although we have an expression
uh that some, some people liketo use it, that is, uh, I have
saudades of something I neverlived yeah that is uh.
It's very controversial becauseusually when we say saudade is

(40:34):
something, some experience I hadI want to have again, but it's
uh, for some reason at thismoment is not possible, but then
in that case I think the wordjapanese words, akogare would be
more appropriate.
So it's something.
I wish I had this experience inthe past.
So I don't know, I I'm 38 rightnow and I wish I had the

(41:01):
experience of living in manycountries in the past.
It's uh, I only lived in in twocountries, so I wish I I don't
know, I lived in Argentina,spain, australia, but I didn't.
And then when I keep thinkingabout these experiences that I
didn't have, uh, that I haven'thad and I wish I had, then

(41:25):
that's when I can use this uh,this expression of I have
soldiers, of something I never,I've never lived.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
I see Makes sense, but there's no sense of regret.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
No sense A little bit .

Speaker 1 (41:41):
A little bit.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
In that a little bit yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
Yeah, okay, so it's quite complicated, yeah, so I'm
beginning to understand howcomplicated it is.
So let's move on to theembodied experience.
Okay.
I think when we talk aboutikigai, as I said before, you're
like vibration.
Or you've got a table in yourpaper and it's listing.
You'd feel ikigai in the chestor this idea of heart, kokoro

(42:10):
maybe in the belly and maybe allover the body, and these
feelings of butterflies,calmness, peace, stimulation and
yeah, I can understand allthose and I think I often feel
those with Ikigai.
But what about Sadaji?
What's the body parts andwhat's the embodied experience?

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, that's interesting because the body
parts are similar.
It's usually the chest, theheart, somewhere here, but the
feeling is very different Insaudade.
It's usually emptiness or somekind of pain here, and then,
when it comes to the face, it'sa feeling that you're about to

(42:54):
cry, like watering eyes.
So those are the feelings thatare commonly described, and
sometimes some people describeother body parts.
So, to give an example, let'ssay I used to play football and
then when I feel saudades ofplaying football when I was very

(43:15):
young, it's as if I could feelmy legs running and kicking the
ball right.
So this would be the embodimentof the body, feeling or
expression of this emotion.
But on that paper I think wespoke a lot or more about the
chest and the heart, becauseit's common.

(43:37):
I mean comparing Ikigai andSaudade.
These two emotions.
You have the same place, butvery different.
One is a vibration and it's afeeling as if your chest is full
of energy and bursting energythat it can use to fulfill your
goals, while in Saudade it'sempty.

(43:58):
You're missing something.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
It definitely makes sense.
It's related to the chest andstomach or belly.
When I think of Japanese andthese idioms of like haragatatsu
, like I'm angry and yourstomach feels like it's kind of
standing, yeah.
Or munegaipai, I think, is anexpression.

(44:22):
I'm not sure what that means.
Is it emotional or I'm full ofemotion?
So yeah, in Japan, the Japaneselanguage has all these
interesting body part idiomsthat convey emotion or all the
embodiments.
Yeah, but we do feel.
We often feel these things inour chest, our belly.

(44:43):
So it is, we're strange animals, we feel these things.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
What I find interesting is that the language
and the culture influence us tofeel that way that's
fascinating right and uh.
They didn't bring examples, butI read about some different
cultures and, depending on theculture, the where you feel a
specific emotion will bedifferent.
So in english we talk a lotabout the guts.

(45:11):
Regarding courage, yes.
The guy has guts and you kind offeel somewhere around here when
you're about to do somethingbold, right yeah.
And then in I guess, theJapanese people might when

(45:32):
they're upset, they might feelthat their stomach is standing
up.
But we definitely feel somethinghere strange going on, some
tension and this part of thebody when we are upset and it's
uh, well then, according to towhat the kind of research we do,
this is basically the bodytelling us that something is
important, importance going onand that we need to take some

(45:54):
action.
Calm down, probably, or calmdown, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
Fight or flight.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Fight or flight, still take some action.
Right, and that's partiallyrelated to this.
But you know symptoms of mentalillnesses.
They are different according tocountries, and in China and
Korea people feel depression,they have pain in some parts of

(46:21):
the body, and people from othercountries don't feel those
symptoms.
Wow, when they have the samedisorder, the same mental
illness.
One thing I want to maybe oneday do in the future related to
Japan is this katakuri, oh yeah,so stiff shoulder that many

(46:41):
Japanese people complain aboutit.
If you live in Japan longenough, you start to feel it.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Societal expectation yeah right.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
I don't know if it's related to anxiety, but it's
very cultural, because I haven'tfelt this in my life before
coming to Japan.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah yeah, I remember learning that and hearing
Japanese say that a lot.
It's kind of cool, but why dothey say it so often?
We don't say my shoulders arelike frozen.
Is that what it is?
Koro?
Yeah, my katakori, my shouldersare stiff.
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
I don't know.
But so there's this thing.
Those things are specific tosome cultures and in the case of
Ikigai and I guess I'll add aswell, the feeling might exist in
other cultures, because I heardpeople talking about this like
when I found what I wanted to doin life, I felt something in my

(47:50):
chest, in my heart, my heartwas pumping quicker.
That's when I decided I shouldbecome a musician or something
like this.
And in the case of Saudade, yousee in art also in many
countries, a few empty insidesbecause they miss some family

(48:10):
member, some past lover.
So the feeling is there and theembodied experience is there.
The words might be missing, forsure.
So it's an interesting puzzle.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, we might say playing guitar makes me feel
alive.
Yeah, when I hold my kids it'slike I'm in heaven.
Yeah, when, I hold my kids.
It's like I'm in heaven and yeah, but we I guess yeah many ways
to describe the feeling.
We don't have one word todescribe.
I guess these common emotionsrelated to the embodiment of the

(48:47):
experience.
But yeah, the cultural aspectis interesting in how you
mentioned.
Almost the culture defines theembodied experience and the
emotion.
And you're right, studyingculturally specific emotions is
important to understand not onlythe culture that originated it,
but also to understand humansliving in other countries and

(49:10):
yeah, I would say this issomething I discovered by living
in Japan and I'm sure you have.
You understand Japanese fromtheir culture and you understand
the differences and why these Iguess why these words originate
from their culture.
So you are originally fromBrazil and you speak English and

(49:31):
you live in Japan and speakJapanese.
So what have been your personalexperiences of embodiment of
culturally specific emotions incultures other than your own?
So, obviously, japan, did youlive in an English-speaking
country?

Speaker 2 (49:49):
No.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
So just Japan and Brazil.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Only Brazil and Japan , and sometimes I start to
understand what people arefeeling.
But I also think I'm still abeginner.
I sometimes I can feel ikigai,or sometimes I can use words
such as natsukashi, theirconcepts.
They're just different to tothe concepts I grew up speaking

(50:15):
or that I understood from anearly age, so I can use them.
I can understand when peopleuse those words and I'm starting
to feel those emotions in asimilar way, but I have the
impression I cannot understandthem completely.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
It might take another 12 years maybe, I don't know,
I'd agree Because I might.
I mean, if I use Natsukashi,it's more cognitive, it's like,
oh, this is the right word touse in this situation, but I'm
but am I really feelingnostalgia that deeply?

(50:54):
Probably not.
And yeah, you're right.
Yeah, that's why I said beforeyou need to live in the country.
I think I had this experiencewhen I thought, ah, I finally
understand Okagisamade, and Ihad this kind of moment, ah, I
finally get it.
But I mean, I'm not sure if Idid, but yeah, you have those

(51:17):
moments where you feel, ah,because Japanese also have all
those kimari monka, all thosesaid expressions, yes, yes.
First it's like you strugglebecause you're just saying the
same thing over and over again.
And you I even got to a point Ithought, oh, it's kind of
meaningless, you're just sayingthe same thing over again.
And I even got to a point whereI thought, oh, it's kind of
meaningless, you're just sayingthe same thing.
And then it kind of flipped theother way.

(51:39):
It's like oh, I'm getting toreally understand and feel these
words.
So it is a journey that I guessyou not only cognitively
process, you feel it and thenmaybe you eventually embody the
word, I guess, or the experienceof the word.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, I hope so.
A few things I think I haveembodied or learned in a more
implicit way.
So, to give another example,the ways to use sumimasen and
arigato gozaimasu, they're socomplicated that I think it's
not possible.
Maybe it is possible forsomeone who's very clever to

(52:21):
learn consciously, but mostpeople know how to use these
words unconsciously.
Yeah, because sometimes I meanin times when in English you
would say thank you, sometimesJapanese people would not say
arigato, they would saysumimasen.
Yeah.
The thank you is included, butit's more important to apologize

(52:43):
for creating trouble.
Yeah.
And needing the help of theother person.
But it's hard to do thisconsciously.
You just do it subconsciouslyand you're like, okay, now I
should say this one, now Ishould say that one.
But it's just hard and it'sit's related to the other other

(53:04):
words.
Another word that I have a hardtime using in japanese is
hasamu.
Like to go in between, likecaesars.
They are hasami.
Like they go between, likepaper or something else.
Japanese people use this a lotwhen they want to include
something new in a conversationor or somewhere else.
But it's such a foreign conceptto me that even though I

(53:29):
understand the words Itechnically I know how to use it
I just never use it.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
No, I wouldn't.
I understand the meaning of theword and you've reminded me of
it, but yeah, I can't imagineusing it in a conversation.
I'm probably going to think areyou talking about a sandwich,
or something?

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah right, when Japanese people speak English,
sometimes I see that they wantto use this word and they just
say, oh, we're going to sandwichtwo concepts and another one in
between.
I'm like okay.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
But the word sumimasen, yeah, that was
interesting for me to learn too,because I quickly thought, wow,
sometimes they use it to sayexcuse me, I need your attention
, to apologize or to say thankyou.
And then I had a podcast with anauthor, scott Huss on this, who
talked about uke ideru andacceptance, and in his book he

(54:26):
touches on sumimasen and he gaveme this perspective.
It was more like, in all threesituations you're really saying
I'm going to disturb you now, orI'm going to break the harmony,
or I'm going to break the flowby either calling out sumimasen,
as in excuse me, or sumimasenas you know sorry, I'm kind of

(54:50):
inconveniencing you, or maybe Ihave.
And then even the sumimasen forarigato means there is this
hint of I've disturbed you orI've troubled you in some way,
and I thought, wow, that'sreally helpful, because I'd
never really thought about itlike that.
I just thought, oh, this issuch a cool word, you can use it

(55:12):
in these three contexts and itis different to arigato.
But arigato seems, yeah, moreintentional when it's all
positive.
Arigato seems, yeah, moreintentional when it's all
positive, yeah.
So sometimes even otherforeigners can give you this
context where you think, ah, Inever thought it like that.
So yeah, but it's sort of thejourney of learning Japanese.

(55:34):
It never ends.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Yeah right, it never ends, and I think there will be
many other words that I candiscuss in that sense.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Acceptance is a strong theme too in Japan, and I
remember having even justJapanese friends in Melbourne
and I'd often hear theexpression shogunai and I was
thinking, oh, that wouldtranslate, it can't be helped.
But we don't really say that.
And I would often be asked howdo you say shogunai in English?

(56:06):
And I'm thinking, well, weprobably say like, what a pity.
Like we're going on a picnicand it starts to rain, we can't
go.
Oh okay, what a pity, we'll dosomething else, yeah.
And then uke ireru is that's areally hard one to fully grasp.
That seems like full acceptanceor something I don't know.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
In cultural, psychological research, people
talk a lot about agency and howpeople believe they have more or
less agency.
So in Japan and in east asia ingeneral, it is um what
experiments would have shownthat people believe they have
less agency in the sense thatthey cannot modify the

(56:53):
environment, so they have toadapt to the environment, and
they would use all the energy toadapt to the environment and
then it would make sense thatthey would use more shogunate
like there's nothing I can doabout it.
We have to adapt to thissituation, while in other
countries or the cultures,people wouldn't use a similar

(57:17):
expression that often and themeaning behind this would be
that they can do something aboutit.
Okay, it's raining where wewant to have a picnic.
We will go to restaurantsinstead or go to somewhere.
Do like an indoor picnic, ifthat's possible or something

(57:38):
else like we'll figure out a wayin practice.
I think both think both groups,let's say the Australian group
and the Japanese group, willfind a way to still meet their
friends and eat food together.
But the way they wouldinterpret it would be different.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Even when I think about acceptance, it's so
infused in Japanese culture.
I don't think it's consideredlike a weakness as it sometimes
is in Western culture.
I don't think it's consideredlike a weakness as it sometimes
is in Western culture and evenJapanese see it as.
This is like the true nature ofthings Bad things happen and we

(58:14):
can't really change, as yousaid, can't really change the
environment.
I mean, the West is like no,I'm not accepting this and we're
going to do something about it.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
There's one interesting experiment that was
done.
I think it was done in Chinaactually in China and in the US,
so there are Starbucks cafeseverywhere.
They would mess up the chairson the corridor and they would
look at how people would gothrough the corridor with all

(58:46):
those chairs, like out of place.
In the us people would be morelikely to put the chairs back.
So they would modify, theywould use their agency on the
environment to create a path,while in china people would just
adapt and avoid the chairs,like going from one side to the

(59:07):
other.
Of course, this was not alwaysthe case, so you would see
Americans avoiding the chairsand Chinese people putting the
chairs back.
But I think it's a very cleverway that they investigated this
thing about agency.
In the end, everybody couldpass through the corridor and go

(59:28):
to the other place, but the waythey perceived it was different
.
Yeah, so I find it veryinteresting.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
It is interesting Even behavior around using
public services, like getting onand off trains.
There is this rigid kind ofrules.
How to you know you create apath so people can get off the
train in japan, which isfantastic, and I can't tell you

(59:57):
how many times I catch a trainin melbourne and you're trying
to exit the door and people arestanding right in front of you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Oh, Brazil's the same .

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
They won't move and you bump shoulders or you have
to sort of go on your side andyeah, when those moments happen,
I sort of think I wish I was inJapan getting off this train.
So yeah, culture certainlyconditions behavior.

(01:00:25):
And I mean I think in Japan, asyou'd know, there is this idea
of meiwa kukakinai-de, likedon't cause trouble.
So I guess that also createsthis feeling that you have
limited agency because you haveto do what's right by society,

(01:00:46):
whereas I guess in the west, inAustralia, it's like, well, I
don't care, I'm going to do myown thing, and if it upsets
other people or you know, that'snot my problem.
It's kind of a selfish attitude, not always, but we just
wouldn't extend our thinking orconsideration as far as Japanese

(01:01:08):
duo or I guess almost areforced to do.
Even from a very young age myson attended the first year of
school in Japan and I remember,you know, a parent saying to his
beautiful daughter likemewakukakinaide ne Like.
And I couldn't believe that hewould say that as a parting

(01:01:30):
greeting, like, and I'm justsort of telling him, son, I love
him and have a good day, and Iwas really shocked.
So that really was one of thosecultural moments I was like wow
, you're saying that to afour-year-old already and I was
really upset about it.
But I think it was more like bea good girl today, kind of yeah

(01:01:54):
that's true, but it reallyshocked me.
I thought, wow, that's puttingpressure on Like she hasn't done
anything wrong.
Why are you saying this?
Putting pressure on like shehasn't done anything wrong?
Why are you saying this?
And yeah, it was.
It was one of those momentsit's like, wow, that's pretty
harsh it is right and it's hardto.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
When we hear those things, it's hard to interpret
them right, because we have ourown cultural let's say cultural
bias or our own way of viewingthe world and expecting things
and also of educating children,and it's really hard to
understand the other'sperspective.

(01:02:36):
And even when we understand thewords, it's hard to understand
the ideas or the feeling behindit, as you just mentioned.
So you understand consciously,but still there's something
inside of you that's not verycomfortable with that idea.
For me it took a long time tounderstand or to start feeling
okay with the gambate kudasai orgambate, the gambate com açaí

(01:03:02):
or gambate, it sounds in Brazil.
It sounds a bit offensive tosay to tell someone to do their
best, because it sounds as ifthey're not making the effort,
yeah, putting in the effort.
So you know you're not playingreally well, let's say in a
football match, and you thinkthe players are not playing well
.
Then you say, oh, please, putin some effort.

(01:03:24):
So it sounds offensive when yousay that in Brazil, but in Japan
is the most common thing youwould say to someone who is
trying to do something, and ittook me a while to get used to
that expression yeah, it almostseems like the only expression
they use for encouragement orsupport.

(01:03:46):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
And even in my first year in Japan, I was a trainee
chef and I remember this youngJapanese man he might have been
in his mid-20s, late-20s, so Iwas younger than him at the time
and he was asking me all thesepolite, you know, polite,
friendly questions where you'refrom and how you're enjoying
Japan.
And at the end he said, oh, youknow, thank you, and like

(01:04:12):
kambate kudasai.
And I thought he doesn't meando your best, it's more like I'm
supporting you, I wish you well, like in Japan.
But it took me a while to kindof realize that.
So yeah, the literal meaningdoesn't always translate to the
literal meaning.
It often translates to I'msupporting you or I'm glad we

(01:04:35):
met and I wish you well.
So that's, it's good when youkind of realize that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I find it fascinating because I think Japanese people
do this more than foreignersand, for example, when we watch
a film here, we would bewatching with English voices and
Japanese subtitles and theydon't match.

(01:05:04):
The words wouldn't match allthe time, but the feeling, or
what the, what the characterswant to say Do match.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
It does make sense.
So remember going to movies andthinking what.
They've got the translationwrong.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Yeah right, it's not what they said, and then when
you think about and thinkingwhat They've got the translation
wrong, yeah, right, it's notwhat they said.
And then when you think aboutokay, so what would you say in
that situation, that context inJapanese, and okay, it would be
something similar, then it makessense this kind of translation,
yeah, would be interesting.
I think it's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Well, we've talked about agency and you encourage
people to be an agent of theirown change.
So do you want to touch on that?

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
It's more about being attuned to your body, to your
emotions, especially when wewell, our job is to do research
and then write those papers,those articles, and they are a
bit complicated sometimes.
Many people put emphasis onwhat is called the higher levels

(01:06:11):
of consciousness and what isconscious and what we think, we
believe, is the best thing to do.
But of course, this isimportant.
We should think about thingsdoing before engaging in some
activity, we should think itthroughout, but also we should

(01:06:31):
consider the, the gut feeling,to use an english expression, so
what our body is telling us.
That's also importantinformation.
And when we make decisions solet's say you want to make a
life decision like buy a car,buy a house, move to another
country, and you start toconsider everything in a very

(01:06:55):
intellectual, in a veryconscious way, precise, taking
notes, etc.
This is important.
But also you have to payattention to your body.
Maybe you're afraid, maybeyou're happy about it, and this
should be taken intoconsideration when making
decisions, when being active,when using your agency.

(01:07:16):
I think that's more or less theidea we wanted to convey there
and, of course, future researchshould consider this as well.
We're trying to increase ourinfluence and that's something
that all academics try to do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Yeah, I think it's a term, or maybe I won't get it
fully correct, but it's likeembodied intelligence, like your
body's sending signals as towhat feels right.
Uh, yeah, that's, that's theidea.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
yeah, I mean, nowadays we tend tend to think
about evolution and um, how thebody would work, how we as
humans would work, I don't know50 000 years ago and when humans
were in a very differentenvironment, very different
situation than we are today.
So today you are in Australia,I'm in Japan, we're talking

(01:08:12):
online.
This would not be possible even20 years ago, let alone like
thousands of years ago.
But our bodies are basicallythe same as the bodies of our
ancestors 50 years ago and theywould decide things, they would
go on with their lives relyingway more on their emotions and

(01:08:34):
their gut feelings than we aretoday.
But our gut feelings, they tellus a lot about the environment,
but our gut feelings, they tellus a lot about the environment.
So, to give a classic example,when we see a big animal, like a
lion or a bear, we are afraidand our body reacts to it,
telling us this is verydangerous and you should be

(01:08:56):
afraid and this is helpful totake action.
Right're gonna hide, you'regonna run away, or, if you have
the tools, you're gonna fight,and your body prepares you to do
those things.
Yeah, right now we're not veryafraid, uh, consciously of big
animals anymore, because theyjust don't live in the same

(01:09:18):
environment.
Uh, that we do.
But there are other things thatcan make us afraid, and this is
probably the body interpretingthose signs and telling us that
we should pay more attention toother things.
So, yeah, I totally agree withyou.
It's kind of a body.
What was the expression youused?

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Body, intelligence, embodied intelligence, yeah, yes
, intelligence yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Yes, yes, definitely definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
But what's fascinating is our imagination
can trick us into, you know,like fearing possibility, and
then we embody that fear andit's not even real yet.
And it's not somethingoutrageous like there might be a
bear outside when I go for awalk.

(01:10:05):
It's more like, oh, I mightfail this test tomorrow, or I
have an interview and I'malready sweaty hands and I'm not
going to handle it.
Well, and we seem to embodythese.
Have they embodied hisexperience of what's not even

(01:10:27):
real more more intensely thanwhat is real, which is crazy?

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
it's basically anxiety, right, and and this
could be, this could beproblematic.
There's another issue we havebecause we are a very anxious
animal as human beings and weanticipate problems.
So, yeah, we have, I have atest, uh, next week.

(01:10:53):
So I start to worry now and, uh, I start to have all these body
reactions and stress and thiscould damage the body.
This does damage the body andthat's the other side of the
same coin and it can be veryproblematic.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Well, good luck with that test.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
No, I was just an example.
I was an example okay.
My students have a test nextweek.
I'm not I'm not anxious aboutit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
They might be yeah, lucky you, yeah, I was thinking
about your example of, like youknow, moving to japan, and
that's something I'm seriouslyconsidering doing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
That's something I'm seriously considering doing
because of my work now.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
Yeah, so I might.
I mean, all logic says I shouldgo back to Japan because of the
business it's growing and I'mdoing retreats and workshops and
I've built this network and formy wife she has family there
and my son's now in his early20s, so he's ready to probably
do his own thing.
And it does feel right, likethe embodied experience is like

(01:12:09):
telling me oh yeah, like I feelrelaxed and good and excited
about this.
But if it was seven years agoand the idea was, oh, you know,
we have to go back and you know,just for the time being, maybe
I'd have to teach English again,yeah, I'd probably be very

(01:12:30):
anxious and tense and stressedand think, ah, Just shoulders.
Yeah, don't want to teach again.
And so, yeah, our body reallydoes react to our environment,
what we anticipate.
So we should be an agent of ourown change, I guess.
Definitely, yeah, our bodyreally does react to our
environment, what we anticipate.
So we should be an agent of ourown change, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Definitely yeah, should take the body and the
mind into consideration.

Speaker 1 (01:12:51):
Yeah, so let's end with, I guess, a personal
question.
You've lived in Japan for quitesome time, you are married to a
Japanese and you have a family,so let's touch on your ikigai
First.
Do you remember the first timeyou heard the word ikigai?
Was it in a social context, orwas it in a research context?

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
I think it was more of an educational context,
because I remember seeing ikigaiwhen I was studying Japanese,
before I came to Japan.
So I studied for a year or so,two years, and then I would be
going through textbooks and allthese words.
And so some words they makesense, they have direct

(01:13:34):
translations, computer chair,mobile phone, etc.
Very easy to understand.
But then you go into thosewords that are not directly
translatable and ikigai was oneof those words that I had to
stop for a moment, like reasonto be alive.
I think that could be a common.
I don't remember the exactdefinition I saw, but I would

(01:13:58):
have to go to the internet andlike, look and read a little bit
about it.
In Japan I didn't hear once Icame to Japan I haven't heard
that often the words, but thelast part of it, the guy.
So yari-guy, hataraki-guy, etc.
You see that a lot In research.

(01:14:21):
We see it more often because weask people what's your hataraki
guy?
Is this related to yourhataraki guy, Et cetera.
But yeah, and then I don't knowwhen, it became just another
word, another common word to methat I would use from time to
time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
Yeah, I mean, that was my experience, actually
someone.
My experience might be a littlebit unique, because someone did
ask me directly on NikwaChirikigai in Japanese who was
Japanese, and I was like, oh,what's that?
But then after that I don'treally remember anyone using it.
I've seen it a few times indocumentaries, but yeah, I used

(01:15:03):
to hear yadigai ga aru likeevery week.
You know it was far more common.
And then, even more recently, Iheard someone on a Japanese
podcast.
Two Japanese guys were talkingand one said like tsukudigai.
And I thought oh okay,tsukudigai wow, yeah.
And then, once I got into theresearch, I found out oh, you

(01:15:26):
can have, yeah, hataraki gai,asobi gai, manabi gai, oshi gai.
And these are words Japanesewould never use, but they're
helpful for framing these ideasof, oh, what's worth learning,
or who's worth teaching, orwhat's worth playing, I guess,

(01:15:47):
or how should you spend yourleisure time.
And I've seen Asobi Gai just inprint, but no one's ever said
it to me, so it seems to be YariGai.
I've never actually heardanyone say Hatarakigai.
Have you heard it?

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
or just seen it, hatarakigai.
Yes, yes, my wife says that alot.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
She's trying to tell you to work harder.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
Yeah, right, yeah, maybe that's the message.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
Come on, working is good for you.
It's good to do making for work.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Working is good for you, yeah come on working is
good for you, it's good to doworking is good for you.
Yeah, that's right, but um, andin one research project we use
it a lot also we ask thisquestion.
I work on many projects and oneproject's about well-being at
the workplace and it is relatedto having meaning.
Meaning, what is the?
I forgot the expression, butit's something like meaning to

(01:16:43):
work meaningful work, or I'veseen it translated as work
motivation yes yeah so if thereis a reason, if the kind of work
you do is meaningful to you,then if you're happier, you're
more productive, et cetera.
There is a concept inpsychology that is meaning in

(01:17:04):
life.
Yeah.
And that I think is related to,or it's similar to, ikigai.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Yeah, yeah, I think in Japan, until the Ikigai 9
scale was developed which iswhat about 15 years ago they
were using Western scales, likethe meaning in life scale.
And eventually, I guess aJapanese researcher or a couple
of Japanese researchers said whyare we using Western scales to
measure our well-being?

(01:17:31):
We should make our own.
And then they came up withthese scales, like the Ikigai 9
or the Ikigai Kan scale, andthey're very similar but have
some different.
I think they have somedifferent elements, like Yutori
Kokoroni, yutori Garu I thinkthat's one of the Ikigai 9 items
and that's something againunique, like this idea of space

(01:17:56):
or room, which we probably don'tvalue that much in the Western
world.
Anyway, we could go on and on,but we probably should end, so I
will end with this question,now that you've studied Ikigai.
You live in Japan.
What is your Ikigai?

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
What is my Ikigai?
I don't know.
It's hard to answer a questionjust on a personal level,
because work is also part of ourlives and our lives are related
to other people.
One thing I've been thinkingabout that kind of derives from
my research is that I've becomemore similar, in that sense, to

(01:18:39):
Japanese people uh, similar inthat sense to japanese people.
So right now, my ikigai, Iwould say, is just to live my
life in a stable, peaceful, calmway.
So it's just like going to work.
I like going to work.
I like spending time withfamily, I like going on the trip
from time to time, spendingtime with friends.
So it's not very intense orexciting as it used to be.

(01:19:03):
When I was younger, I wanted togo places, I wanted to do things
and having have new experiences.
Now it's more about enjoyingthe same experiences over and
over and again, and they areslightly different, as, uh, when
you think about your favoriteuh dish, and it's the same, but

(01:19:24):
it's not the same, right?
So the, the food you ateyesterday, even if you eat the
same today, it's not exactly thesame and that's that's what you
enjoy.
So today is a little bit morespicy, a little bit more salty
or sweet than it was yesterday.
So if I had to talk about myIkigai, it's just going on and

(01:19:47):
enjoying those moments in liferight now and I think it's
different to my Ikigai 12 yearsago, when I want to go to this
new country and learn thelanguage, learn the culture and
explore everything.

Speaker 1 (01:20:04):
Yeah, it is.
I mean, your answer is kind oflike a very typical Japanese
answer.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
Yeah right.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Daily living.
And I did find some researchwhere another researcher created
like a four-factor scale onIkigai and he noted that for
young I mean, you're still youngso for young it tends to be
passion, this passion for life,and that would relate to forward

(01:20:33):
thinking and ambition.
And then for the elderly it wasmore this internal calm
experience, and I guess with agethere's limitation with what we
can do.
But it's also tied to yourcurrent life.
Yeah, You're married, you'vegot kids.
You can't just run off to a newcountry, even if you wanted to.
No, so maybe it is conditionedby your social context and your

(01:21:00):
familial context.
If you're, I don't know if youwere still single, who knows,
you might be skiing in Niseko atthe moment or something.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
So that's true.
That's true.
I wonder if it's related toyour past experiences, because I
was single for a while and Iwas traveling and just going to
places and meeting people.
And after you settle down thenyour mindset changes.

(01:21:31):
But I wonder the degree ofinfluence I wonder about the
influence of your pastexperiences will have on those
choices and I don't have ananswer.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
Yeah, I guess one significant discovery for me was
the idea of role Like rolebecomes a source of ikigai.
So, father, researcher, husband.
You know, if you quickly getmarried and have kids, that's
like two new roles and you'recommitting much of your life to

(01:22:04):
those roles and hopefullythey're the sources of Ikigai.
Maybe for some people they findout oh, what have I done?
I'm now, I have enough freedom,I've got to work hard.
So, yeah, there's certainly acontext to Ikigai in what your

(01:22:24):
sources are, because if you'resingle and young, you have this
incredible freedom, I guess timefreedom and and when you're
married, then you have adifferent type of freedom.
I guess, uh, and you'recommitting yourself to roles and
then, now that my son's oldenough to be like a shakaijin,

(01:22:50):
like a independent and hopefullysoon independent, I've kind of
probably got some freedom backand I think, well, okay, I want
to work on stuff.
I want to do Not that hestopped me, but yeah, I want to
really work on stuff and thatmight include going back to
Japan.
So I guess context and our ageand where we're at really also

(01:23:15):
determines what can be ourIkigai.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
So it takes 20 years to get freedom back?
Yeah, so Is that what he'ssaying?
Yeah, I think.
I think roles, roles areimportant.
What I just wonder is um aboutpast experiences, because, uh,
the ikigai described as he saidit's probably related to my

(01:23:42):
current roles are very similarto people I know who didn't have
this age of exploration whenthey were young adults.
So many cultures people justget married after, after high
school.
They finish high school,they're like 18 or 20, they
marry someone and then they godirect to the same stage that I

(01:24:05):
am right now almost 40.
So I wonder if my pastexperiences would have an
influence on my current state ornot.
Probably, yes, but it's alsohard to measure.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
There's actually a theory on that by one of my
podcast guests called ShintaroKono, and he's based in Canada
and he did a study calledHokosei.
So life directionality and hebelieves your past life and your

(01:24:39):
perception of the future isvery much tied to your present
experience, and even badexperiences can eventually turn
into have a positive effect onyour life.
And so in some way, yeah, yourpast Ikigai sources or your past
experiences that maybe youconsidered Ikigai, still have an

(01:25:03):
impact on you and have shapedyou to where you are now.
And he calls that life legacy,with this different meaning.
It's not.
It's not a legacy you leavebehind, it's the legacy you've
had.
And yeah, I mean I related thatto the day I walked out of a job
.
I was miserable, I was gettingbullied, and one day I got

(01:25:24):
another manager and said I'mleaving.
Now I'm done and I walked outand it's very distressing and
you know I was quite depressed,but that definitely changed my
life and has impacted my life towhat I'm doing now.
So I can yeah, you candefinitely go back and think

(01:25:48):
with this kind of open mind whatexperiences have shaped my life
, or what Ikigai experienceshave shaped my life, or what bad
experiences have kind of led meto a path of new Ikigai in my
life, so it is also quitereflective Ikigai too.
You can reflect on what's beengood or what challenges have

(01:26:10):
helped you grow, and thenperhaps that helps you make
better decisions for the future.
Yeah, so there's so muchresearch behind this word.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
It's mind-blowing, very interesting.
Yeah, it sounds also related totherapy and I wonder if the
Japanese kinds of therapy, ifthey have something related to
Ikigai, like Morita therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
Yeah, nikan Morita therapy, a Haya Therapy also?
I'll have to look that one up,but I did have a recent podcast
on this theme.
It was quite interestingbecause, yeah, exploring the
intersection of behavioralactivation and ikigai.

(01:26:57):
So this was episode 91.
And they offered an examplewhere they had a Japanese person
living in Europe I think inGermany and that person was
getting therapy and nothing wasreally resonating in the
sessions.
And then one day the therapistmentioned Ikigai and it gave

(01:27:18):
this person a new framework thatthey were familiar with to
think about.
Oh okay, I'm kind of stressed orunhappy or depressed, and it
gave this person a new frameworkthat they were familiar with
Just thinking about, oh okay,I'm kind of stressed or unhappy
or depressed, but oh, I canthink about what my ikigai is,
and it seemed to.
Really I don't know how well ithelped the person, but it
definitely had some positiveimpact on framing, I guess,

(01:27:39):
using the word ikigai in therapy.
So I'm sure it's going to be anarea of research as well.
Yeah Well, igor, we've probablygone an hour and 40 minutes,
but it feels like we're going tobe scattered for half an hour.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
So thank you for joining me today.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
Definitely we'll catch up in person.

Speaker 2 (01:28:08):
Definitely yes.

Speaker 1 (01:28:09):
So I will stop the podcast and maybe we'll have a
little chat.
Okay, thank you.