November 25, 2025 • 57 mins
Ever study hard and still wonder why it feels empty? We dive into academic yarigai—the lived, situational meaning that makes learning feel worth doing—and map out nine practical factors that turn study from grind to growth. With Dr. Yu Kanazawa, associate professor at Osaka University, we explore how a refined approach, adapted from the Ikigai-9 scale, unites engagement, curiosity, flow, social contribution, and purpose into a single, usable framework.
We walk through each factor—intrinsic fulfillment, curiosity and intellectual stimulation, personal growth, social contribution, engagement and flow, recognition and appreciation, overcoming challenges, real-world relevance, and a sense of purpose—and show how they interact. Rather than treating motivation as fuel you either have or lack, we focus on lived qualities you can cultivate from different starting points. Maybe you’re not enjoying a subject yet, but you see its social value; maybe you love the topic but haven’t tied it to real problems. Each factor is a gate into meaningful study, and you only need one to begin.
Yu shares insights from his study with Japanese undergraduates and explains cultural nuances like utori—mental space that makes flow possible—and how cramming cultures can crowd out deep engagement. We also unpack why recognition is more than reward; it signals that your work matters to others, which stabilizes effort. For teachers, coaches, and learners, the nine-item scale becomes a reflective tool to diagnose strengths, spot thin areas, diversify sources of meaning, and reduce burnout. Language learning shines as a case study, linking curiosity, connection, and real-world use in a way that naturally builds yarigai.
If you’re ready to trade blunt motivation hacks for a humane, research-backed path to purposeful learning, this conversation offers a clear map you can use today. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a study reset, and leave a review telling us which “gate” you’ll try first.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Yariga is not just about, okay, do you have the
(00:02):
sense of purpose?
No, sorry, you don't haveYariga.
No, but there's several pathsthere.
You enjoy that intrinsically.
That's one path to approach.
If you feel you're not reallyenjoying it, in fact, but you
strongly feel the socialcontribution, maybe that's
another path to work on.
And maybe that could potentiallylead to another aspect too.
(00:22):
So thinking about it moreflexibly is another way to use
it.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
I guess today on the Iking Guy Podcast is Dr.
Yu Kanazawa, an associateprofessor at the Graduate School
of Humanities at the Universityof Osaka.
Yu holds a PhD in language,communication, and culture,
specializing in languageeducation.
He possesses advanced andfirst-class teachers' licenses
(00:51):
in English for both junior andsenior high schools, as well as
a first-class teacher's licensein civics.
With extensive experienceteaching English as a foreign
language to both remedial andadvanced students across
secondary and tertiary levels,Yu brings a wealth of practical
and academic insight to hiswork.
(01:12):
His research interests spanemotional philosophy, cognitive
psychology, vocabularyacquisition, and information and
communication technology ineducation.
Thank you for joining me today,Yu.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
It's indeed a pleasure for me to participate
in this podcast.
And also it's been nice uhseeing you in person a few
months ago when you visitedJapan.
And also like thank you forfinding my uh paper study about
this academic Yarigai concept,about which I published a paper
less than a year ago, and nowI'm keeping on trying to develop
(01:52):
it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yes, it was good to meet you in person in Osaka when
uh it was extremely hot.
That was not in May, and we hadsome beers and dinner with um
your friend and fellowresearcher, was it Yana?
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
From JK.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
So yeah, congratulations on your paper.
So, as you mentioned earlierthis year, you published a
research paper titled AcademicYarigai Assemble, Uniting
Engagement, Motivation,Enjoyment, Wellbeing, and Ikigai
under Academic Yarigai.
And we're going to dive intoyour paper on this episode.
So I think it would be helpfulto start with defining and
(02:33):
comparing yarigai and ikigai.
So would you like to do that?
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
Sure.
So uh one thing, ikigai is uh,of course, a Japanese concept
broadly defined as a reason forliving or a purpose of life.
It kind of embodies one's senseof meaningful existence.
It's quite existential concept,I would say, characterized by
some positive and optimisticemotions toward life,
(03:01):
meaningfulness, proactive,hopeful attitude toward the
future, and recognition of yourpersonal value, not just your
own value, but within embeddedin society as well.
So that's this deep sense ofikigai, which doesn't have to be
included to like making moneystuff, but uh some deep sense of
doing or like sense of likeliving.
(03:24):
Oh, because of this, my life isfulfilled.
But uh yarigai, so yari meansdoing actually, it's uh more
situational, or the simplestdefinition of yarigai is
situational ikigai, I would say.
So uh this is a Japanese conceptthat can be defined as something
(03:44):
worthwhile doing.
So the focus is more doing thanon living.
It embodies a sense of intrinsicsatisfaction, fulfillment, and
even personal growth derivedfrom activity engaging in
specific meaningful tasks androles meaningful in society as
well.
So the basic concepts orstructure uh implications are
(04:05):
similar or basically shared withikigai, but it's more
situational, related more tosome task that you're engaged
in.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
And I guess as a result, yarigai is used more
commonly in conversationalJapanese than ikigai.
I remember living in Japan and II'd hear the expression yarigai
garu, like oh that's somethingworth doing, almost every week,
but I rarely heard ikigai.
(04:36):
So would would you say you useyarigai or hear yarigai probably
like every week?
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
Yeah, I think definitely it's more popular or
like linguistically speaking,frequent than ichigai.
Ichigai feels more like somedeontological situation, like
older generation.
Oh, this is my Ichigai sense ofliving.
Well, it depends on people, butlike seeing the face of the
(05:03):
grandchildren, for example.
But like the younger generation,teens or 20, uh people are in
their 20s.
What's your ichigai?
Can sometimes be tooexistential, like deep
sometimes.
Well, they have enjoyed manythings, but what is your
ichigai?
It's something difficult toanswer sometimes.
But yarigai is quite possible.
Well, this is so interesting todo.
But it's not just interesting,not just enjoying, but also
(05:25):
meaningful, a little bitchallenging, and also meaningful
to yourself, society.
So a lot of these things combinetogether.
So definitely it'sitigai-related concept.
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Maybe the ikigai usage comes with age and we gain
this life wisdom, and then thesmile of a grandchild, or the
sunset is something we valuemore because we have this
knowledge of life, and maybe weappreciate the smaller things.
But it's it's very fascinatingthat Japanese have these unique
(05:55):
words.
What's even more interesting ispeople like yourself write
papers on them.
So earlier this year, youpublished a research paper
titled Academic Yaligai, asymbol, uniting engagement,
motivation, enjoyment,well-being, and ikigai under
academic yaligai.
And your paper introduces theconcept of academic yaligai as a
(06:18):
novel, comprehensive frameworkthat integrates a central
motivation and emotionalconstructs such as engagement,
motivation flow, enjoyment andwell-being in applied
linguistics and educationalpsychology.
And so you're a teacher oflanguages, mainly English,
you're a very good speaker ofEnglish.
(06:39):
Why did you see this need tobuild a framework related to
language?
SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
That's a very good question.
Actually, there are severaldifferent people with different
tastes, actually, though.
Some people want to introducenew ideas, other people want to
try to like make it simple andsimpler, like using Ockcom's
laser stuff, especially in thisfield, like language.
It's called psychology oflanguage learning field.
Many people are interestedalready in learner motivation or
(07:09):
learner emotion, especially likeenjoyment or maximizing
enjoyment, minimizing anxiety orboredom, or different types of
motivation, or some identity, orsome ideal future self.
So lots of concepts already outthere.
But one thing I notice is thatuh there are a lot of intricate
(07:30):
concepts.
I know there are a lot of thoseuh questionnaires trying to
measure different aspects, likemotivation.
Motivation is divided into somany different aspects, like
intrinsic, extrinsic, uhintegrative or instrumental, or
maybe depending on differentfields, it can go into like much
even deeper, likeself-determination related
stuff.
(07:51):
So try not doing all these smallthings and then study about the
concept, okay, this motivationis related more to the academic
success or something.
That's also, of course, usefuland pretty nice for our
research.
But at the same time, I couldn'talso help to feel and think all
these concepts are so dividedand intricately distinct with
(08:12):
each other, but sometimeswhether they are really
practical or not.
Research, very nice.
You can publish more likeelaborate paper about
theoretically go going deep intodifferent aspects of motivation.
But uh, for example, a teachertry to check like students those
different levels of motivation,enjoyment, and all of other
(08:33):
things.
Maybe it will end up asking themto answer like more than 100
items of questions, then you'llfind the result.
But that's not always useful.
So something that's handy in oneconcept, but integrating all
these different important sensesto enjoyment, flow experience,
(08:55):
but not just enjoyment, but uhmeaningfulness.
Isn't there anything like that?
And also I come to think, oh,this itchigai or yadi guy, it's
those important things,everything is included inside.
That's why I was interested inborrowing this idea, which is
usually not used in languageeducation, but in from this
well-being study or those uhsocial well-being studies, to
(09:19):
this language education.
So that's my attempt.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
You approached this actually by referring to
something called the Ikigai NineScale.
So you created an academicYaligai 9 scale.
And actually, on episode 12 ofthis podcast, I did interview uh
Dr.
Dean Fido, who worked with uhDr.
Yasuhira Kutira to translate theIkigai 9 and have it validated
(09:43):
on an English-speakingpopulation.
Do you want to touch briefly onthe Ikigai 9 and explain why you
use that as the foundation todevelop your scale?
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Sure.
In order to make it a study,there should be some
academically sound previousstudy.
And for that, I found thisIkigai 9, which actually I found
before COVID myself, and thoughtit's quite interesting.
So, a lot of cases in my field,people are interested in
(10:16):
motivation, enjoyment.
But this ikigai is not onlyfocusing your own psychological
subjective feeling, of course,feeling happy is one, but also
some motivation to learn newthings or helping society,
having enough room or space inyour mind, many interests, many
(10:38):
things you're interested in, oror my existence is important for
someone, or life is rich,fulfilled, or even
self-development.
I want to expand or develop mypossibility or like
potentiality, and also evengiving some positive influence
on other people.
So, oh, this is so good.
(10:58):
It's not just aboutpsychological, subjective
well-being, but it's also aboutsome social meaning.
It's like embedded in societyaspects.
Actually, that's recent somecognitive psychology theory goes
as well.
Like there's this thing calledlike for e cognition or
cognition thinking.
People used to think likecomputer machine stuff, but uh,
(11:18):
it's not.
It's embedded in situations,social context, and also it's
embodied.
We have to take into accountthat we have our bodies, we are
actively doing something, wehave our agency to do things,
even changing society.
And also recently there's thisAI stuff out there.
We have tools.
(11:39):
Our cognition is going beyondour brain ideas there.
So this idea is Ichiga and I.
This is just not going beyondsimple enjoyment or just
motivation, but meaning moreabout those embedded being uh
ourselves, uh, and that'sactively influencing society
(12:00):
aspects.
So these things must beincorporated, I thought.
But like I said, ikigai can betoo deep sometimes.
So maybe making it moresituational, Yaregai.
Kind of trying like nicely blendand also like different already
used concept, plus including theimportance of social or agentic
(12:21):
element inside.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
I think that makes sense to use a previous
validated study, and then Iguess you were refining it in
the context of language learningand making it more situational.
I'm not a researcher, but Iimagine that would be very
helpful.
Let's actually touch on yourstudy because you did do a study
(12:44):
with university students, and Ibelieve you interviewed or had
47 participants who wereJapanese undergraduate learners
of English.
So, do you want to share how youconducted the study?
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Well, 74 participants.
Basically asking them, so theyare students learning English as
a foreign language, and thenasking them openly the question
basically about the activities.
They know Japanese, they areJapanese speakers, so they know
the concept of Yadigai already,or they must be using it in
their lady lives too.
(13:48):
So I ask them to think aboutacademic.
So this is important.
Of course, they may have aYadigai with any other things,
like video games, clubactivities, but it's
specifically on study, research,or classes aspect.
I kind of narrow it down uh ininstruction.
And what makes you feel Yadigai?
(14:09):
I ask them.
Basically, they were able tolike write down their response
freely.
My class is basically languagelearning, but I said it's okay
with anything.
And then asking them about thoseactivities, and also a lot of
ideas out there.
And also I ask them, what do youthink is the important element
that making your activity uhYadigai field?
(14:31):
So they are asked to facilitateit to think about what makes
this activity Yadigai field, andthen they were able to just give
some answers themselves.
So basically, why do you thinkyou have Yadigai in this
academic activity?
I asked them, and it's some freecomment style of questions.
So they were able to just thinkabout that, and then they were
(14:52):
able to just write down as manyas they like what makes an
activity Yadigai involved.
So basically I got the data andthen kind of classified.
Surprisingly, they quite wellfit into those seven different
aspects of ETGI9.
So that's something I come tonotice.
SPEAKER_00 (15:10):
Yes, and from your study, you identified uh nine
key factors.
So would you like to share whatthey were, and then I think
later we'll get into more detailof specific examples of each.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
So basically there are nine factors.
So they are both theoreticallyand empirically founded.
I had Ikigai 9 in mind, so it'scompatible with Ikigai 9
concepts.
The first factor is intrinsicfulfillment.
Intrinsic is actually the key.
It's not extrinsic, intrinsiclike from inside yourself you
(15:47):
feel meaningfulness.
Another thing is curiosity andintellectual stimulation there.
And this is about somethingcalled epistemic emotions,
actually.
I want to know more.
Like some surprise, curiosity.
Well, you can actually have someconfusion too.
So that's another element.
And the third factor is personalgrowth and self-development.
(16:12):
It's kind of like moretemporality here.
Is you're not just you enjoy ithere, but because of this, I
think I become better or I'mmore educated, or through doing
this, I'll know more, I willgrow.
So that kind of self-personalgrowth is there.
And the fourth factor, socialcontribution.
It's not just you are happybecause you enjoy it, but you're
(16:35):
helping society.
The fifth factor is engagementand flow.
Engagement is actually somethingwhich is multifaceted, but maybe
flow is a better idea.
Flow is this famous uh HungarianMihai Chicksend Mihai professor.
His idea like forgetting abouttime, absorbed into it.
(16:55):
It's something which is notcompletely only cognitive, but
quite deeply emotional.
You are so much engaged insomething.
So that kind of like forgettingabout time element is there.
And then sixth factor isrecognition and appreciation.
As a result of your activity,you are acknowledged,
appreciated, or sometimespraised by others.
(17:17):
It doesn't have to always bepraised, but it's kind of
related to social.
Your activity, your study isrecognized, acknowledged, and
appreciated.
Seventh factor, overcomingchallenges.
So here, like just simplyemotionally put, over challenges
is actually some negative side,some stress, some difficulty.
(17:39):
But the experience of overcomingthose challenges will give you
some deep sense ofmeaningfulness, or yagi in this
sense, deep satisfaction.
An eighth factor, applicationand real-world relevance.
It's another kind of similarsocial idea, but what you do is
(17:59):
useful or pragmatically helpfulfor the future as well.
It's gonna be related to societyor even some better practices.
It doesn't end just in class.
And the final nine factor is asense of purpose in learning.
It's a little bit overlappinghere, but uh you clearly have
(18:21):
the goals or understand thepurpose.
Oh, I do this.
So that kind of sense ofmeaningfulness, sense of
purpose, clear purpose, that'salso another element there.
So these nine factors puttogether, this academic Yarigai
concepts is consistent.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
Yeah, when I looked at all of these factors, I was
thinking, wow, this is veryrelatable to positive
psychology, personal growth,self-development, uh, flow,
social contribution, intrinsicfulfillment, even maybe
overcoming challenges could berelated to, I guess, existential
positive psychology, where wegain a stronger sense of
(19:00):
identity and realize we'recapable of more.
So, yeah, would you say it'svery relatable to positive
psychology?
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Yeah, definitely.
There's this paper that Ipublished in 2019, which is
going like beyond the positivepsychology.
But the idea is actuallypositive psychology, but more
about some positive psychology2.0, I would say.
I think there's another bookpublished in 2015 or something
called like second wave positivepsychology, actually.
(19:31):
We're talking about somemisunderstanding of positive
psychology, it was about okay,positive psychology is people
thinking about okay, like happyis good or enjoyment is good
only, but that would just kindof try and not look at the
negative side.
There's a lot of those papersout there.
I dug in deep into it.
There's Against Happiness orHappy Crassia or some books
(19:52):
talking about the danger ofpositive psychology, especially
if you mistaken it as okay,let's just aim for happiness,
they just aim for enjoyment orpleasure.
So, but it's not just that it'smore like eudaimonic stuff, like
deep existential sense ofmeanings.
In that sense, it's not likeagainst positive psychology, but
(20:12):
beyond the original positivepsychology and it's like in in
its misunderstood form.
So this can be regarded as likewell-being, of course.
So it's related to some morecomprehensive positive
psychology idea, I would say.
But yeah, it's it can go alittle bit more than this
sometimes.
It's related more to thispositive psychology 2.0.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah, I did a diploma of positive psychology,
and the three key learnings wasup until fairly recently,
psychology was all about solvingwhat's wrong with people.
And sort of getting them back tonormal.
Then yeah, positive psychologywas this focus on what makes
your life worth living orfulfilling or meaningful.
(20:54):
Maybe that was misinterpreted aswhat makes you happy.
But yeah, we obviously can'talways be happy.
And challenge or even hardshipcan result in something positive
or learning or growth.
So yeah, I think that's a validpoint.
When we say positive psychology,we're not saying you're always
positive and happy.
As you mentioned, it's moreabout your dynamic well-being,
(21:16):
meaningful well-being, a deeperunderstanding of what makes your
life worth living, and certainlychallenges or hardship.
We suffer.
We're kind of born intosuffering, so we have to learn
how to deal with suffering andstill find meaning and purpose
in that.
So, yeah, like Ikigai, positivepsychology's kind of been
(21:36):
misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
Yeah, exactly.
I may not always use the wordpositive psychology, but of
course, in its real form, Iwould say.
In its not like vulgarized,misunderstood form.
It really is that kind of likeexistential positive psychology
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
So moving on, with these nine factors, you went on
to create your scale with ninescale items, and obviously they
relate to the nine factors.
As you know, once I read yourpaper, I sent you a message and
thought, oh wow, this is veryhelpful.
Um, can I share it with mystudents or clients?
(22:15):
Because I thought the nine itemswere very helpful and very
useful for understanding, Ithink, both Yadigai and Ichigai
to some degree.
So, do you want to share thenine items and how they relate
to each factor?
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Sure, I'm happy to.
So the first item goes like thisI feel personally fulfilled when
I study.
It's measuring intrinsicfulfillment, highlighting
internal satisfaction andemotional happiness that
students experience throughacademic enjoyment.
(22:50):
And this is uh closely relatedto this Ikigai 9 item.
I often feel that I'm happy.
This is more about thosesubjective happiness feeling
aspects.
Definitely it's importantaspects.
So personally feeling fulfilledwhen I study.
So that's the first item.
And item two, I enjoy learningnew things and find it
(23:11):
intellectually stimulating.
And it addresses curiosity andintellectual stimulation.
And this dimension emphasizeslearners' excitement and
eagerness to explore newknowledge.
And this is aligning with theIkigai 9 item.
I'm interested in many thingsactually.
So this is more about somediversive curiosity, want to
(23:33):
know more, want to explore more,and also psychologically
speaking, or philosophicallyspeaking, too.
This is related to thisepistemic emotions.
You feel surprise, predictionerror, and you want to know
more.
And that's the basic biologicalmechanism of higher order being
cognition, backed up by thefamous free energy principle
(23:54):
theory.
So, especially I think this isalso important.
Not just positive emotion, butsurprise and curiosity.
And item three (24:01):
studying helps me grow as a person and develop
my abilities, targeting personalgrowth and self-development
factor, reflecting, of course,how academic activities foster a
sense of progress andself-improvement, corresponding
directly with Ikigai 9's item, Ilike to develop myself,
(24:25):
emphasizing continuousself-improvement as central to
academic yareka.
And item number four, I believethat my academic learning can
contribute to society in thefuture.
It captures dimension of socialcontribution, of course,
illustrating learners'recognition of the academic
efforts, societal relevance, andpotential impacts.
(24:49):
And this is well correlatingclosely with Ikigai 9 item.
I feel that I'm contributing tosomeone or society, of course.
So you have some connection withsociety, reinforcing the
importance of perceivingacademic pursuits as meaningful
and socially beneficial.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
It would have been lovely when I was a student to
have this perspective when I wasin high school, but I really
struggled in high school.
I didn't enjoy learning, and nowI love learning.
And all these items reallyresonate with me now, probably
because I'm learning what I wantto learn or I'm exploring my
(25:29):
curiosities.
It would be wonderful if allstudents kind of felt some of
these items in their study oflanguage or anything.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Yeah, anything, that's right.
This can be kind of off topic,but uh maybe some teacher may
just focus on like enjoyment orfulfillment.
But there are different aspectsthere.
So ikiga, yariga is not justones, or there are social
meaningfulness oracknowledgement.
So these things all involve.
So it's good for not justteachers but also students to
(25:59):
know in order to make them feelregulate themselves to feel more
yarigai.
What is lacking?
Or maybe this aspect of yariga Istill don't have.
So what is Yariga I can find?
Maybe that that's a good way togo rather than just trying to
like motivate yourself simply.
I don't like it, but I need tolike it.
No, maybe you may like somesocial significance.
(26:20):
So item number five to continue,I think.
When I study, I feel deeplyengaged and lose track of time.
Definitely reflecting the flow,Chicksen Mihai flow theory and
engagement, I would say.
This item assesses the deepabsorption learner's experience,
potentially aligning with Ikigai9 item.
I have room in my mind.
(26:41):
This one is like not completelycorresponding, but you have
enough room.
In order to feel those deepsense of flow, you must have
enough resources or some enoughcognitive reservoir left that
you can utilize to explore more.
So, in that sense, you haveenough room in your mind.
In Japanese, it's called likeUtori, I would say, in mind.
(27:02):
People sometimes criticize UTori as Utori education,
actually, though.
I'm an educational background,so I can say about Utori
education is like Japan, likeAsia.
People tend to just focus a loton like cramming too many
knowledges in high school.
There is some re educationalreformation and having people
should have more room in theirmind, like UTORY, like more
(27:23):
time.
And also instead of cramming toomuch, but they need some time to
think deeper or choose what theywant to learn more or something.
So it kind of echoes that too.
So if there are too many thingsto study, maybe they cannot feel
flow sometimes.
Especially with proper amountand also proper like space in
mind, they can just forget abouttime and enjoy what they want to
(27:47):
study.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
I remember reading about Utory generation, and
there was this this intention togive them less homework, and it
failed because they didn'tchange the testing system.
So at the end of this schoolyear, all these students were
failing.
And then I think they're intheir 30s now, maybe in their
mid to late 30s, this generationof Japanese, and often if they
(28:09):
go for job interviews orsomething, and then their
potential employer realizes theywere part of that generation,
there's some prejudice, and theythink, well, oh, you were part
of that lazy generation whodidn't study hard enough.
Yeah, have you heard storieslike that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Yeah, actually, like I'm one of the oldest tutorial
generation.
I remember I used to like sixdays a week of studying, got
five days.
So Saturday classes, and alsothe textbook got a bit thing,
which I didn't like myselfactually, though.
But I like this spirit.
How it can really actualize oroperationalize is another
(28:45):
question for sure, though.
But of course, if they havestudents, sometimes if students
have more room or space orleisure, they may study, but
they may also less enjoyacademic stuff.
So that's a difficult point forsure.
But uh but I I talk with likepeople, students from not just
from Japan, but kind of similarsituation, for example, like
(29:07):
China, Aquarius to fierceinterest examination, and
students are cramming a lot ofknowledge stuff out there.
So like some students will besuccessful, but that's also kind
of diminishing creativity orcritical thinking or
applicability of the knowledgefor the real life.
So the aim for learning is test.
It has it will be.
So say so how it can change is avery difficult question.
(29:30):
I think we still don't have theanswer, but I like the spirit, I
would say.
Of course, some people may havethose flow experiences with
fierce cramming.
But usually, my my observation,if they are too much imposed on
so many things to study, theymay just be overwhelmed by those
things and they no longer haveenough space, room in mind.
They need some room, but maybesome facilitation to focus on
(29:54):
learning.
I know some students just wantto spend more time reading manga
or video games, which is notalways bad, but you know, of
course if you do that too much,they may end up not studying.
Well, just tapping into thereally difficult question that
we still don't have an answer tothat.
Yutori has its own good side, Iwould say.
I wouldn't say it's everythingis good, but uh the spirit is
good.
Okay.
(30:15):
Item six I feel motivated whenmy academic efforts are
recognized by teachers, peers,or family.
Assessing the recognition andappreciation aspects,
highlighting the motivationalsignificance of External
acknowledgement and itcorresponding to Ikigai 9 item.
I think that my existence isneeded by something or someone.
(30:37):
So how external validationreinforces learner's sense of
purpose.
So it's kind of contrastive tothe first item.
It's like intrinsic fulfillment.
You enjoy it because that'smeaningful.
You feel meaningful.
But there's some nice balanceneeded, like intrinsic
motivation versus extrinsicmotivation.
People usually say intrinsic isimportant.
Extrinsic is like some candy orwhipped situations, so that's
(30:58):
not very good, they say.
But also, if you you just enjoyit, but it's not acknowledged by
anyone.
Well, there's some genius doingthose unacknowledged study, and
then 100 years later it will beI appreciate it.
These things happen, but usuallyyou should get some proper
acknowledgement about some uhevaluation.
(31:18):
So there are some aspects ofexternal validation needed.
So that's uh echoed uh here inthis item.
Item seven, I feel a sense ofaccomplishment when I overcome
difficult academic challenges.
This is about overcomingchallenges, indefinitely,
literally, for this factor.
And also this reflects thesatisfaction derived from the
(31:39):
successfully navigating academicdifficulties.
Kind of mirroring Ikigainaiitem, my life is mentally rich
and fulfilled.
There's this uh concept ofpsychological richness proposed.
There's happiness of life ormeaningfulness of life, but also
there's one more thing, likerichness of life, proposed 10
(32:00):
years ago.
This richness is not just aboutyou have a meaning, but uh you
have a positive feeling.
But there's this third differentdimension.
Like talking more about the richexperience, more emotional
intensity.
It doesn't have to be positive.
Sometimes some negative emotioncan also be intensified too, but
(32:20):
as a result, reflecting oneverything, this was so
meaningful, and then like thisis so rich, so kind of sometimes
dramatic, but it doesn't have tobe completely dramatic, though.
So this rich uh experience isalso echoed here, and also
that's this positive psychology2.0 stuff.
Positive emotion, not justpositive emotion, some kind of
(32:41):
trouble, challenges, confusion,overcoming difficulties in a
long run, leading to veryeudaimonic experience.
It was tough, but so nice toremember.
Item 8 is I can see how myacademic knowledge can be
applied in real life situations,emphasizing the application to
(33:03):
real world relevance, assessinglearners' perception of the
practical applicability ofacademic learning, it aligning
with a guy nine item.
I believe that I have someimpact on someone.
Real world relevance,highlighting the real world
applicability, enhancing theperceived value of academic
(33:23):
activities.
So here is of course related tosocial, but it's a bit more
about agency, I would say.
You are active agency, theagentic thinking.
You are studying not just toabsorb knowledge like a sponge,
but also to use it to sometimeseven like change the society
into a better world or betterplace.
So it's uh some pragmatic spiritin here as well.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Yeah, that one stood out for me as that's Yarigai,
like where's the relevance?
How can we use it in the realworld?
It's not just something we mighttalk about or discuss, it's like
this application.
So I thought that's a strongelement for Yarigai.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
Yes, definitely.
And also for like well-being aswell.
So it's kind of a mixture of allbehavioral, cognitive, and
emotional aspects.
Well, another thing is like, forexample, engagement and
motivation.
People often divide intocognitive, emotional, and
behavioral, and then likeseparately see things.
But for example, this aspect isit's everything.
So it's partly behavioral,backed up by emotional and
(34:26):
cognition.
So this thing is maybe one goodexample showcasing how these
concepts cannot really bedissected to my psychological
concepts here.
So this is kind of holistic initself.
Next one is the final item.
Item nine is I understand how myacademic studies align with my
long-term life goals.
Majoring learners sense ofpurpose in learning and goal
(34:49):
alignment, potentiallycorresponding with Ikigai 9's
item.
I'd like to learn something newor start something.
Suggesting how clearlyarticulated academic goals
connect meaningfully withbroader life ambitions.
So here, like maybe they startsomething, like academic,
(35:09):
especially useful for students.
Of course, they can think aboutsome future goal that has
nothing to do with academicpursuit, but ideally, they're
studying a university, forexample, so they should connect
it, their long-term life goal,with those academic contents
there, and that'll make it deepsense.
So yaddy dye.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Yeah, whenever I say sense of purpose now, I tend to
think of the work of MirkoKamiya, and she wrote
extensively on this in her book.
So it's not just purpose, it'sthis sense or feeling of purpose
that what I'm doing isworthwhile or might be
worthwhile in my future,something I can use, and it's
(35:48):
not just something I'm learningfor the sake of learning.
I think in the West there's alsothis mistake to equate Ikigai
just to purpose.
And as we've explored, it's amultifaceted, multidimensional
concept with all these factorsof intrinsic fulfillment, you
know, curiosity, growth, uh,social contribution, engagement
and flow, recognition andappreciation, overcoming
(36:13):
challenges, and real-worldrelevance and application, and
then yeah, a sense of purpose ispart of the puzzle.
Would you say anyone stands outstronger than others, or is it
very subjective to theindividual?
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
So actually that might relate to my future study.
This scale is actually sometrait yarigai, I would say.
How much you have yarigai inacademic study field in general.
And also this is a self-reportthing.
One limitation of self-reportthing is some people who is
quite eager, motivated, likemore than what actually he or
(36:53):
she is, may report, yes, I havea high sense of meaningfulness
or something.
Especially in Asian context orJapanese context, some people
who are feeling those sense ofenjoyment but kind of modest.
Well, like maybe my score is notthat high.
So there's some of thosesubjective differences out
there.
So whether just comparing theaverage of these scores to what
(37:14):
extent it is really meaningfulis something we have to
carefully check.
But balancing these differentaspects, I mean not just one,
it's possible that some peoplehave very strong yada, but maybe
one or two items, quite a lowscore sometimes, right?
So if that was the case, likewhat's happening to that is nice
to of course there are somestudents, like I said, like a
(37:37):
student who couldn't study forsome reason, but now finally he
or she can come to school andcan study.
So these cases, Yadiga is sohigh in general, so motivated.
Of course, that's kind of anextreme case.
Like if you look closely, maybelike, oh, this person has a
pretty big sense of purpose, butactually there's not enough
(37:59):
social contribution element.
So you might notice that.
In other words, that can be likenot always be sustainable.
Somebody like burnout, I wouldsay.
If someone was so motivated tostudy, a lot to be art guy, but
some kind of burning out mayhappen.
So in that sense, if you lookinto it, for example, oh, this
person has a so big sense ofpurpose or some intrinsic
(38:22):
motivation, intrinsic enjoyment,but maybe completely lacked some
social contribution element tostuff.
So maybe in that case, I meanthat could be bolstered or
supported later.
It could also be used todiagnose highly motivated
people, how that person ishighly motivated or actually, or
even people with not motivation,but in which aspect especially
(38:43):
they have especially low,especially high motivation.
It's quite case by case, I wouldsay.
Model cases will be there, butthat can be even if you look
closely, quite complex anddynamic.
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Well, it is interesting because I guess if
you took the scale, if ourlisteners took the scale and
thought, okay, there's a subjectI'm not really interested in, or
I don't like learning, but Ihave to, maybe they can use this
scale to find a way to actuallyfind meaning or purpose or enjoy
at least the process oflearning.
(39:16):
A usage of the scales, like,well, I I I'm not super
passionate about this subject,but maybe learning this
knowledge, I believe it willhelp me in the future with
social contribution.
Or maybe studying this subject'sactually a challenge.
So it ties to overcomingchallenges.
And it might give the studentmore meaning, purpose, and might
(39:38):
reset their mind on approachingstudy.
SPEAKER_01 (39:42):
There are several paths to Yariga, in other words,
I think.
Yarigay is not just about, okay,do you have the sense of
purpose?
No, sorry, you don't haveYariga.
No, but there's several pathsthere.
You enjoy that intrinsically.
That's one path to approach.
If you feel you're not reallyenjoying it, in fact, but you
strongly feel the socialcontribution, maybe that's
(40:02):
another path to work on.
And maybe that could potentiallylead to another aspect too.
So thinking about it moreflexibly is another way to use
it.
I think there are like maybepotentially like nine different
aspects to approach, which youdon't have to excel at
everything from the beginning,but maybe like something that
you can start better, focus onbetter, for a better yarigai.
(40:24):
And then you can expand it moreto others.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
Yeah, actually, to quote you, academic yarigai
fills a critical gap byemphasizing the lived
experiential quality of academictasks, which traditional
motivational theories ofteninadequately address.
So I think that's what we'retalking about.
It does give people a chance tofind a way to do these academic
(40:51):
tasks with lived experience,rather than it being just a form
of motivation that makes onestudy.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
I think you called it from my motivation and
academic yaragai section.
Especially motivations, thereare a lot of theories out there
actually, which is sometimes thevalidity of the construct is
criticized.
Motivation.
Motivation is kind ofmetaphorically explained as a
kind of some energy, like all ofsome gasoline or some fuel to
(41:19):
make you be more engaged andinvolved in something.
Whether that metaphor is reallyvalid or not is actually
debatable.
Actually, there's this bookNaming the Mind published in
1990 or something.
This construct of motivation isactually quite new.
So there's those energy metaphorcoming out.
(41:39):
But uh, before it was like willor it was conceptualized quite
differently.
So actually, this motivationconcept itself is so new, and we
don't know whether this is anatural kind.
I didn't even publish a paperabout the fall of motivation,
basically criticizing that.
So potentially maybe emotion canexplain better.
Emotion is a kind of naturalkind, but maybe motivation is
(42:02):
maybe not always so so in thatsense, of course.
Uh this motivational theory isthere are a lot of intricate
studies.
Like, for example, in in myfield, this famous theory goes
like ideal self, ought to self.
So I have this, I want to belike this vision that's giving
me some motivation.
Or I don't want to be, but Iought to be ought to self.
Well, they have their ownimportant implications and
(42:24):
meaningfulness, but whether theyreally capture this emotional
dynamics, not just about I havethis goal, so I want to do that
kind of thing, but moreenjoyment, everything
organically put together.
Maybe that you need to likeconsult different emotion
concepts and theories, somethingsomehow organically
incorporating it into sixingnine factors.
(42:47):
That kind of tap into uh evenemotions too.
For example, this uhquestionnaire uh is only nine
items, usually, which is so alot of those nice validated
items, uh dozens of itemssometimes.
But something that may happen isculturally that may be
different.
Like there is this enjoymentscale in like foreign language
(43:08):
learning, enjoyment scale is aquite popular and famous one
there.
But then through a lot ofdifferent question items trying
to measure the student'senjoyability, but sometimes that
includes like I laugh a lot inclass, or we have some internal
joke in class or something.
But for example, in Asiancontext, students really
enjoying learning, but do theylaugh a lot or do they like a
(43:31):
joke with each other?
Maybe not not always.
Statistically really validated,actually, the factor analysis
and all reliability checking aredone actually.
But there's this culturaldifference out there, I would
say.
Of course, trying to like morecarefully grasp the idea of
enjoyment itself has somepotential limitation, I would
(43:52):
say.
For example, like some quietstudents really having a sense
of learning, enjoying it, butnot really laughing or
socializing or enjoying.
Maybe they'll score for thoseparts can be lower.
So kind of trying to likeincorporate a lot of items has
its own limitations.
Statistically, it's reallyimportant, especially like
diagnosing or like utilizing itas a guideline.
(44:16):
So this academic yarigai scale,nine items, is not only about
those scale to major students'level of yarigai, but kind of
like nine important aspects forthem or students or teachers to
think about.
So in that case, maybe it's alsopossible to increase items more
and more, like for example, onefactor, like five items or
something, but that's like quitelong list of survey.
(44:39):
But of course, to start withsomething as succinct like this,
and then basically one factor,one statement, and whether they
can reflect on whether they havethis already successfully
accomplished or not, is maybemore useful, like qualitative
psychologically rather thanquantitative psychologically
(44:59):
speaking.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
Yeah, I remember reading one of the reasons why
the Ikigai 9 scale was createdwas these researchers realized,
the original authors of thepaper realized we're using all
these foreign scales to try andmeasure ikigai, like the meaning
in life scale, the purpose inlife scale, when we should
really be measuring Ikigai inthe context of Japanese culture.
(45:22):
So I think that's part of thereason why they decided to make
the Ikigai 9 scale.
And then one thing I've noticedin many scales, there's usually
some form of control questionwhere there's a sort of a
negative statement, but Inoticed that's not the case with
Ikigai 9.
And I also know that the peoplewho learn it find it very
helpful for engaging indiscussions, coaching
(45:46):
conversations.
And I'm kind of amazed thatobviously in daily life we don't
talk about these subjects orthemes because we're busy with
life, and most of the time wecomplain about things.
The scale, obviously, the EKI9and now your scale gives us this
opportunity to discuss obviouslylearning or life with these
(46:10):
different angles, contributionor growth, or these inner
states.
Do I have utility?
Do I have this mental space?
Is my life fulfilled?
I guess one question I would askis what's your advice for
teachers or coaches with thisscale to help their clients or
their students?
SPEAKER_01 (46:30):
That's a really good question, actually.
That's kind of like uh moreanswering, not as a
psychologist, but as someeducator myself.
Like I said, so well, like onefurther study for this paper is
actually this academic arraynine scale.
Ideally, there should be morevalidation, reliability
checking.
(46:50):
But that could also mean morefact analysis, and maybe there
should be more items, and it'sgonna be kind of longer, more
complex, I would say.
Which is psychologically good,but something I think is good is
already in its form, like thisnine items, like not using it
for statistics or quantitativestudy, but qualitatively.
So think about them like nineimportant elements of successful
(47:13):
Yari guy or academic yarigai.
So we don't have to use it forthis Likerscale one to five
questions.
Whether do I have, or does thestudent or does the client have
intrinsic fulfillment,curiosity, intellectual
stimulation, personal growth,self-development?
So they're like nine gates orlike nine approaches to more
(47:34):
organic Yariga.
This Yarigai is quite a holisticconcept.
Of course, there are a lot ofways to more dissect
psychological sense ofmeaningfulness into more like
diverse factors.
But this Yarigai likeorganically trying to
incorporate these things,everything.
So these are not consisting ofnine pieces.
(47:55):
It's not a cake, right?
It's not like nine pieces puttogether one whole cake, but
it's more like nine entrance, Iwould say, like nine gates, I
would say.
And then inside is quite welllike mingled together.
So like that's statisticallyspeaking, so they are kind of
overlapping, or like it's maybesome superfluous ideas or
there's limitation that can bescientifically speaking, but so
like which gate you start with,for example, you really absorb
(48:20):
and you forget about time flow.
I mean, that's maybe a nice wayto go into it.
Or maybe you have somechallenges, maybe trying to
start with the overcomingchallenges and trying to couple
it with some other personalgrowth element or fulfillment
growth element, and then liketrying to like mix it well.
So these things, these areasmore about art than science.
But in order to do art too,there should be some good
(48:42):
conceptual guidance, I wouldsay.
So these nine factors, Ibelieve, can work as pretty good
coaching or teaching some ideas.
Okay, how can I make or helpthis client or student more
fulfilled, or like utilizingthis concept Yarika field?
Oh, maybe this person is weak inthis factor, so we should work
(49:03):
more, or this student alreadyhaving some strong something.
Well, this factor is quitestrong, so maybe helping, you
know, utilizing it as a guidinglight, and then like other, but
trying to supplement it withother factors or something.
And then that will be, I think,will relate to some
sustainability as well.
Of course, it's likesustainability is kind of quite
recent, like buzzword in manyfields, but academic
(49:25):
sustainability, like uh avoidingburnout, I would say.
So maybe if you are somebodyreally strong in Yarigai, if
that is supported only by one ortwo factors, if that factor kind
of no longer is so powerful,maybe the person may experience
some burning out.
So in that sense, while you haveenough power or room in mind,
(49:50):
trying to like expand yourYarigai network and somehow, for
example, really enjoying, butnot just enjoying, but trying to
helping it, connecting it moreto social contribution or more
challenging overcomingchallenges.
And after that, for example,even when the students or the
person's intrinsic enjoymentfulfillment element decreased
(50:11):
for some reason, if they haveother important factors, they
can just keep on their Yari guyinvolved endeavor uh more
sustainably.
So in that way too, this can beused.
And also like these things arerelatively intuitive, I believe.
So how to interpret so it can benot just Yari academic, I would
say.
(50:32):
I this is a situation for likeuniversity students.
I made it academic, but well, itcan be depending on some
professional situations orwhatever, or maybe this
adjective academic could bereplaced with some other things,
like depending on who the clientis or the students are.
So I believe this can be usedlike that, to like as a
(50:54):
diagnosis, conceptual tools forholistic and sustainable area
field uh endeavor, and thatdefinitely leads to well-being
or like well-being of theirlives.
Like I often use this, not ametaphor, but some people
seriously study, but after 5p.m.
(51:14):
or something, they just forgetabout okay, now it's about the
time to enjoy, which is nice.
But ideally, like I'm a kind ofperson who try to put life into
what I do, like put life intowhat I study.
So not just okay, it's time tostudy, okay, okay, it's time to
just relax, completelyseparated.
That's well, that's nice.
(51:35):
Uh, there's no criticism, butfor a life to be more holistic,
I would say, what you do, whatyou love, what you feel yariga
involved, that will make itpretty like so it's not clear
separation of leisure and work.
And that can be one of the waysapproaches to well-being, and
trying to incorporate as many asan also uh yarigae and also as
(51:58):
deeply as possible will makeyour work, job, study, um, more
part of your like well-beingitself, too.
So that's kind of my vision.
SPEAKER_00 (52:10):
I think the scale also highlights these are the
benefits of learning.
These are the benefits ofstudying.
So if you study, there's growthand development.
Um, you can reach states offlow.
Uh you can learn something andthen maybe apply it and have
some real-world uh relevance orusage.
(52:31):
You might even feel a sense ofpurpose as you study
intellectual stimulation.
And I think the more we learn,it's a good thing.
You've obviously spent a lot oftime learning English.
Was learning English a source ofikiguy or yadigai for you?
You're, you know, a fluentspeaker, you've written papers
(52:52):
in English, so you're veryproficient.
Uh thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (52:58):
Actually, English has been a subject that I'm good
at, actually.
But uh of course, but languageit itself, well, I'm interested
in like learning other languagestoo, actually.
But language is definitely atool, not just a tool, but uh
through language, you can expandyour horizon.
Of course, pragmatically, youcan communicate with people
(53:20):
around the world, differentpoint of view, and also you can
learn different culture,different ways of thinking, just
by even just by learning it.
And also you come to noticedeeply in your own language as
well, because you know,sometimes that languages have a
lot of dynamic influence, oh forexample, like English, or like
all Chinese or what otherlanguages.
(53:41):
Like this idea is quite similar,but this is different.
So you can kind of compare it inyourself, and that's a good
cognitive like training usertoo.
And even there's some studies orneuroscience studies suggesting
for like bilingual modeling ofpeople having some uh less less
likely to have dementia orsomething.
So maybe cognitively speakingtoo, like making your brain
(54:04):
quite flexible, right?
And also this so in other words,language learning itself is
quite uh possibly a place forYaregai to it's not just you
enjoy learning new things,you're curious, but also social
relevance because you know youcan communicate with people or
read some things that's notwritten in your mother tongue
and stuff, and and recognize,appreciate because you know you
(54:24):
can talk with people, and ofcourse, challenges involved and
real-world relevance is reallyrelevant because language is
used.
People are there.
So a sense of purpose, you know,by learning is meaningful.
So, in that sense, of course, uhtopic of language learning or
foreign language is thatdefinitely one of the topics
(54:44):
that's related to this academicYari guy, relevant to fill with
a lot of those epistemicemotions or surprise.
SPEAKER_00 (54:54):
Ikigai brought us together.
We basically started tocommunicate, we've met in
person, and now we've had thisconversation all because of
starting from one word.
So it's quite powerful.
Even one word can change yourlife.
It's ikingai's obviously changedmy life.
Yeah, yeah.
So I I do recommend having aninterest in other languages and
(55:17):
and learning it.
And maybe with your scale,people can be inspired to
approach it with uh Yarigai, uh,this desire to do it for all
these benefits.
So I think we've talked for overan hour and 20 minutes.
So thank you for sharing yourknowledge, for joining me today.
(55:38):
It was great to meet you.
I look forward to more of yourfuture papers that uh hopefully
you'll publish in English, soit'll be easy for me to read
them.
SPEAKER_01 (55:47):
Yeah, basically plan to do that.
And also, yeah, my progress uhis an ongoing project, so I'm
even expanding more and moreinto like situational Yarigai,
like like Yari guy.
This Yarigai is like more abouttreat Yarigai, but more about
each task.
Task Yarigai.
That's something I'm alsoworking on too.
So yeah, there will be morepapers and presentations and
(56:10):
other stuff.
So usually I put those things onmy social media and other
things.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:15):
Awesome.
I'll look forward to that.
Maybe we'll do another podcastwhen you've written another
paper.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, thank you for joining metoday.
SPEAKER_01 (56:25):
Yeah, it's my pleasure and uh so nice another
pretty good, I would say,Yarigai moment.
Communicating with people andyeah, nice discussion.
That's definitely an Yarigai.
Yarigai atta name.
Yarigai, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yariga is not just about, okay, do you have the
(00:02):
sense of purpose?
No, sorry, you don't haveYariga.
No, but there's several pathsthere.
You enjoy that intrinsically.
That's one path to approach.
If you feel you're not reallyenjoying it, in fact, but you
strongly feel the socialcontribution, maybe that's
another path to work on.
And maybe that could potentiallylead to another aspect too.
(00:22):
So thinking about it moreflexibly is another way to use
it.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
I guess today on the Iking Guy Podcast is Dr.
Yu Kanazawa, an associateprofessor at the Graduate School
of Humanities at the Universityof Osaka.
Yu holds a PhD in language,communication, and culture,
specializing in languageeducation.
He possesses advanced andfirst-class teachers' licenses
(00:51):
in English for both junior andsenior high schools, as well as
a first-class teacher's licensein civics.
With extensive experienceteaching English as a foreign
language to both remedial andadvanced students across
secondary and tertiary levels,Yu brings a wealth of practical
and academic insight to hiswork.
(01:12):
His research interests spanemotional philosophy, cognitive
psychology, vocabularyacquisition, and information and
communication technology ineducation.
Thank you for joining me today,Yu.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (01:30):
It's indeed a pleasure for me to participate
in this podcast.
And also it's been nice uhseeing you in person a few
months ago when you visitedJapan.
And also like thank you forfinding my uh paper study about
this academic Yarigai concept,about which I published a paper
less than a year ago, and nowI'm keeping on trying to develop
(01:52):
it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
Yes, it was good to meet you in person in Osaka when
uh it was extremely hot.
That was not in May, and we hadsome beers and dinner with um
your friend and fellowresearcher, was it Yana?
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
From JK.
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
So yeah, congratulations on your paper.
So, as you mentioned earlierthis year, you published a
research paper titled AcademicYarigai Assemble, Uniting
Engagement, Motivation,Enjoyment, Wellbeing, and Ikigai
under Academic Yarigai.
And we're going to dive intoyour paper on this episode.
So I think it would be helpfulto start with defining and
(02:33):
comparing yarigai and ikigai.
So would you like to do that?
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
Sure.
So uh one thing, ikigai is uh,of course, a Japanese concept
broadly defined as a reason forliving or a purpose of life.
It kind of embodies one's senseof meaningful existence.
It's quite existential concept,I would say, characterized by
some positive and optimisticemotions toward life,
(03:01):
meaningfulness, proactive,hopeful attitude toward the
future, and recognition of yourpersonal value, not just your
own value, but within embeddedin society as well.
So that's this deep sense ofikigai, which doesn't have to be
included to like making moneystuff, but uh some deep sense of
doing or like sense of likeliving.
(03:24):
Oh, because of this, my life isfulfilled.
But uh yarigai, so yari meansdoing actually, it's uh more
situational, or the simplestdefinition of yarigai is
situational ikigai, I would say.
So uh this is a Japanese conceptthat can be defined as something
(03:44):
worthwhile doing.
So the focus is more doing thanon living.
It embodies a sense of intrinsicsatisfaction, fulfillment, and
even personal growth derivedfrom activity engaging in
specific meaningful tasks androles meaningful in society as
well.
So the basic concepts orstructure uh implications are
(04:05):
similar or basically shared withikigai, but it's more
situational, related more tosome task that you're engaged
in.
SPEAKER_00 (04:15):
And I guess as a result, yarigai is used more
commonly in conversationalJapanese than ikigai.
I remember living in Japan and II'd hear the expression yarigai
garu, like oh that's somethingworth doing, almost every week,
but I rarely heard ikigai.
(04:36):
So would would you say you useyarigai or hear yarigai probably
like every week?
SPEAKER_01 (04:43):
Yeah, I think definitely it's more popular or
like linguistically speaking,frequent than ichigai.
Ichigai feels more like somedeontological situation, like
older generation.
Oh, this is my Ichigai sense ofliving.
Well, it depends on people, butlike seeing the face of the
(05:03):
grandchildren, for example.
But like the younger generation,teens or 20, uh people are in
their 20s.
What's your ichigai?
Can sometimes be tooexistential, like deep
sometimes.
Well, they have enjoyed manythings, but what is your
ichigai?
It's something difficult toanswer sometimes.
But yarigai is quite possible.
Well, this is so interesting todo.
But it's not just interesting,not just enjoying, but also
(05:25):
meaningful, a little bitchallenging, and also meaningful
to yourself, society.
So a lot of these things combinetogether.
So definitely it'sitigai-related concept.
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Maybe the ikigai usage comes with age and we gain
this life wisdom, and then thesmile of a grandchild, or the
sunset is something we valuemore because we have this
knowledge of life, and maybe weappreciate the smaller things.
But it's it's very fascinatingthat Japanese have these unique
(05:55):
words.
What's even more interesting ispeople like yourself write
papers on them.
So earlier this year, youpublished a research paper
titled Academic Yaligai, asymbol, uniting engagement,
motivation, enjoyment,well-being, and ikigai under
academic yaligai.
And your paper introduces theconcept of academic yaligai as a
(06:18):
novel, comprehensive frameworkthat integrates a central
motivation and emotionalconstructs such as engagement,
motivation flow, enjoyment andwell-being in applied
linguistics and educationalpsychology.
And so you're a teacher oflanguages, mainly English,
you're a very good speaker ofEnglish.
(06:39):
Why did you see this need tobuild a framework related to
language?
SPEAKER_01 (06:46):
That's a very good question.
Actually, there are severaldifferent people with different
tastes, actually, though.
Some people want to introducenew ideas, other people want to
try to like make it simple andsimpler, like using Ockcom's
laser stuff, especially in thisfield, like language.
It's called psychology oflanguage learning field.
Many people are interestedalready in learner motivation or
(07:09):
learner emotion, especially likeenjoyment or maximizing
enjoyment, minimizing anxiety orboredom, or different types of
motivation, or some identity, orsome ideal future self.
So lots of concepts already outthere.
But one thing I notice is thatuh there are a lot of intricate
(07:30):
concepts.
I know there are a lot of thoseuh questionnaires trying to
measure different aspects, likemotivation.
Motivation is divided into somany different aspects, like
intrinsic, extrinsic, uhintegrative or instrumental, or
maybe depending on differentfields, it can go into like much
even deeper, likeself-determination related
stuff.
(07:51):
So try not doing all these smallthings and then study about the
concept, okay, this motivationis related more to the academic
success or something.
That's also, of course, usefuland pretty nice for our
research.
But at the same time, I couldn'talso help to feel and think all
these concepts are so dividedand intricately distinct with
(08:12):
each other, but sometimeswhether they are really
practical or not.
Research, very nice.
You can publish more likeelaborate paper about
theoretically go going deep intodifferent aspects of motivation.
But uh, for example, a teachertry to check like students those
different levels of motivation,enjoyment, and all of other
(08:33):
things.
Maybe it will end up asking themto answer like more than 100
items of questions, then you'llfind the result.
But that's not always useful.
So something that's handy in oneconcept, but integrating all
these different important sensesto enjoyment, flow experience,
(08:55):
but not just enjoyment, but uhmeaningfulness.
Isn't there anything like that?
And also I come to think, oh,this itchigai or yadi guy, it's
those important things,everything is included inside.
That's why I was interested inborrowing this idea, which is
usually not used in languageeducation, but in from this
well-being study or those uhsocial well-being studies, to
(09:19):
this language education.
So that's my attempt.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
You approached this actually by referring to
something called the Ikigai NineScale.
So you created an academicYaligai 9 scale.
And actually, on episode 12 ofthis podcast, I did interview uh
Dr.
Dean Fido, who worked with uhDr.
Yasuhira Kutira to translate theIkigai 9 and have it validated
(09:43):
on an English-speakingpopulation.
Do you want to touch briefly onthe Ikigai 9 and explain why you
use that as the foundation todevelop your scale?
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Sure.
In order to make it a study,there should be some
academically sound previousstudy.
And for that, I found thisIkigai 9, which actually I found
before COVID myself, and thoughtit's quite interesting.
So, a lot of cases in my field,people are interested in
(10:16):
motivation, enjoyment.
But this ikigai is not onlyfocusing your own psychological
subjective feeling, of course,feeling happy is one, but also
some motivation to learn newthings or helping society,
having enough room or space inyour mind, many interests, many
(10:38):
things you're interested in, oror my existence is important for
someone, or life is rich,fulfilled, or even
self-development.
I want to expand or develop mypossibility or like
potentiality, and also evengiving some positive influence
on other people.
So, oh, this is so good.
(10:58):
It's not just aboutpsychological, subjective
well-being, but it's also aboutsome social meaning.
It's like embedded in societyaspects.
Actually, that's recent somecognitive psychology theory goes
as well.
Like there's this thing calledlike for e cognition or
cognition thinking.
People used to think likecomputer machine stuff, but uh,
(11:18):
it's not.
It's embedded in situations,social context, and also it's
embodied.
We have to take into accountthat we have our bodies, we are
actively doing something, wehave our agency to do things,
even changing society.
And also recently there's thisAI stuff out there.
We have tools.
(11:39):
Our cognition is going beyondour brain ideas there.
So this idea is Ichiga and I.
This is just not going beyondsimple enjoyment or just
motivation, but meaning moreabout those embedded being uh
ourselves, uh, and that'sactively influencing society
(12:00):
aspects.
So these things must beincorporated, I thought.
But like I said, ikigai can betoo deep sometimes.
So maybe making it moresituational, Yaregai.
Kind of trying like nicely blendand also like different already
used concept, plus including theimportance of social or agentic
(12:21):
element inside.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
I think that makes sense to use a previous
validated study, and then Iguess you were refining it in
the context of language learningand making it more situational.
I'm not a researcher, but Iimagine that would be very
helpful.
Let's actually touch on yourstudy because you did do a study
(12:44):
with university students, and Ibelieve you interviewed or had
47 participants who wereJapanese undergraduate learners
of English.
So, do you want to share how youconducted the study?
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Well, 74 participants.
Basically asking them, so theyare students learning English as
a foreign language, and thenasking them openly the question
basically about the activities.
They know Japanese, they areJapanese speakers, so they know
the concept of Yadigai already,or they must be using it in
their lady lives too.
(13:48):
So I ask them to think aboutacademic.
So this is important.
Of course, they may have aYadigai with any other things,
like video games, clubactivities, but it's
specifically on study, research,or classes aspect.
I kind of narrow it down uh ininstruction.
And what makes you feel Yadigai?
(14:09):
I ask them.
Basically, they were able tolike write down their response
freely.
My class is basically languagelearning, but I said it's okay
with anything.
And then asking them about thoseactivities, and also a lot of
ideas out there.
And also I ask them, what do youthink is the important element
that making your activity uhYadigai field?
(14:31):
So they are asked to facilitateit to think about what makes
this activity Yadigai field, andthen they were able to just give
some answers themselves.
So basically, why do you thinkyou have Yadigai in this
academic activity?
I asked them, and it's some freecomment style of questions.
So they were able to just thinkabout that, and then they were
(14:52):
able to just write down as manyas they like what makes an
activity Yadigai involved.
So basically I got the data andthen kind of classified.
Surprisingly, they quite wellfit into those seven different
aspects of ETGI9.
So that's something I come tonotice.
SPEAKER_00 (15:10):
Yes, and from your study, you identified uh nine
key factors.
So would you like to share whatthey were, and then I think
later we'll get into more detailof specific examples of each.
SPEAKER_01 (15:25):
So basically there are nine factors.
So they are both theoreticallyand empirically founded.
I had Ikigai 9 in mind, so it'scompatible with Ikigai 9
concepts.
The first factor is intrinsicfulfillment.
Intrinsic is actually the key.
It's not extrinsic, intrinsiclike from inside yourself you
(15:47):
feel meaningfulness.
Another thing is curiosity andintellectual stimulation there.
And this is about somethingcalled epistemic emotions,
actually.
I want to know more.
Like some surprise, curiosity.
Well, you can actually have someconfusion too.
So that's another element.
And the third factor is personalgrowth and self-development.
(16:12):
It's kind of like moretemporality here.
Is you're not just you enjoy ithere, but because of this, I
think I become better or I'mmore educated, or through doing
this, I'll know more, I willgrow.
So that kind of self-personalgrowth is there.
And the fourth factor, socialcontribution.
It's not just you are happybecause you enjoy it, but you're
(16:35):
helping society.
The fifth factor is engagementand flow.
Engagement is actually somethingwhich is multifaceted, but maybe
flow is a better idea.
Flow is this famous uh HungarianMihai Chicksend Mihai professor.
His idea like forgetting abouttime, absorbed into it.
(16:55):
It's something which is notcompletely only cognitive, but
quite deeply emotional.
You are so much engaged insomething.
So that kind of like forgettingabout time element is there.
And then sixth factor isrecognition and appreciation.
As a result of your activity,you are acknowledged,
appreciated, or sometimespraised by others.
(17:17):
It doesn't have to always bepraised, but it's kind of
related to social.
Your activity, your study isrecognized, acknowledged, and
appreciated.
Seventh factor, overcomingchallenges.
So here, like just simplyemotionally put, over challenges
is actually some negative side,some stress, some difficulty.
(17:39):
But the experience of overcomingthose challenges will give you
some deep sense ofmeaningfulness, or yagi in this
sense, deep satisfaction.
An eighth factor, applicationand real-world relevance.
It's another kind of similarsocial idea, but what you do is
(17:59):
useful or pragmatically helpfulfor the future as well.
It's gonna be related to societyor even some better practices.
It doesn't end just in class.
And the final nine factor is asense of purpose in learning.
It's a little bit overlappinghere, but uh you clearly have
(18:21):
the goals or understand thepurpose.
Oh, I do this.
So that kind of sense ofmeaningfulness, sense of
purpose, clear purpose, that'salso another element there.
So these nine factors puttogether, this academic Yarigai
concepts is consistent.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
Yeah, when I looked at all of these factors, I was
thinking, wow, this is veryrelatable to positive
psychology, personal growth,self-development, uh, flow,
social contribution, intrinsicfulfillment, even maybe
overcoming challenges could berelated to, I guess, existential
positive psychology, where wegain a stronger sense of
(19:00):
identity and realize we'recapable of more.
So, yeah, would you say it'svery relatable to positive
psychology?
SPEAKER_01 (19:09):
Yeah, definitely.
There's this paper that Ipublished in 2019, which is
going like beyond the positivepsychology.
But the idea is actuallypositive psychology, but more
about some positive psychology2.0, I would say.
I think there's another bookpublished in 2015 or something
called like second wave positivepsychology, actually.
(19:31):
We're talking about somemisunderstanding of positive
psychology, it was about okay,positive psychology is people
thinking about okay, like happyis good or enjoyment is good
only, but that would just kindof try and not look at the
negative side.
There's a lot of those papersout there.
I dug in deep into it.
There's Against Happiness orHappy Crassia or some books
(19:52):
talking about the danger ofpositive psychology, especially
if you mistaken it as okay,let's just aim for happiness,
they just aim for enjoyment orpleasure.
So, but it's not just that it'smore like eudaimonic stuff, like
deep existential sense ofmeanings.
In that sense, it's not likeagainst positive psychology, but
(20:12):
beyond the original positivepsychology and it's like in in
its misunderstood form.
So this can be regarded as likewell-being, of course.
So it's related to some morecomprehensive positive
psychology idea, I would say.
But yeah, it's it can go alittle bit more than this
sometimes.
It's related more to thispositive psychology 2.0.
SPEAKER_00 (20:31):
Yeah, I did a diploma of positive psychology,
and the three key learnings wasup until fairly recently,
psychology was all about solvingwhat's wrong with people.
And sort of getting them back tonormal.
Then yeah, positive psychologywas this focus on what makes
your life worth living orfulfilling or meaningful.
(20:54):
Maybe that was misinterpreted aswhat makes you happy.
But yeah, we obviously can'talways be happy.
And challenge or even hardshipcan result in something positive
or learning or growth.
So yeah, I think that's a validpoint.
When we say positive psychology,we're not saying you're always
positive and happy.
As you mentioned, it's moreabout your dynamic well-being,
(21:16):
meaningful well-being, a deeperunderstanding of what makes your
life worth living, and certainlychallenges or hardship.
We suffer.
We're kind of born intosuffering, so we have to learn
how to deal with suffering andstill find meaning and purpose
in that.
So, yeah, like Ikigai, positivepsychology's kind of been
(21:36):
misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
Yeah, exactly.
I may not always use the wordpositive psychology, but of
course, in its real form, Iwould say.
In its not like vulgarized,misunderstood form.
It really is that kind of likeexistential positive psychology
for sure.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
So moving on, with these nine factors, you went on
to create your scale with ninescale items, and obviously they
relate to the nine factors.
As you know, once I read yourpaper, I sent you a message and
thought, oh wow, this is veryhelpful.
Um, can I share it with mystudents or clients?
(22:15):
Because I thought the nine itemswere very helpful and very
useful for understanding, Ithink, both Yadigai and Ichigai
to some degree.
So, do you want to share thenine items and how they relate
to each factor?
SPEAKER_01 (22:30):
Sure, I'm happy to.
So the first item goes like thisI feel personally fulfilled when
I study.
It's measuring intrinsicfulfillment, highlighting
internal satisfaction andemotional happiness that
students experience throughacademic enjoyment.
(22:50):
And this is uh closely relatedto this Ikigai 9 item.
I often feel that I'm happy.
This is more about thosesubjective happiness feeling
aspects.
Definitely it's importantaspects.
So personally feeling fulfilledwhen I study.
So that's the first item.
And item two, I enjoy learningnew things and find it
(23:11):
intellectually stimulating.
And it addresses curiosity andintellectual stimulation.
And this dimension emphasizeslearners' excitement and
eagerness to explore newknowledge.
And this is aligning with theIkigai 9 item.
I'm interested in many thingsactually.
So this is more about somediversive curiosity, want to
(23:33):
know more, want to explore more,and also psychologically
speaking, or philosophicallyspeaking, too.
This is related to thisepistemic emotions.
You feel surprise, predictionerror, and you want to know
more.
And that's the basic biologicalmechanism of higher order being
cognition, backed up by thefamous free energy principle
(23:54):
theory.
So, especially I think this isalso important.
Not just positive emotion, butsurprise and curiosity.
And item three (24:01):
studying helps me grow as a person and develop
my abilities, targeting personalgrowth and self-development
factor, reflecting, of course,how academic activities foster a
sense of progress andself-improvement, corresponding
directly with Ikigai 9's item, Ilike to develop myself,
(24:25):
emphasizing continuousself-improvement as central to
academic yareka.
And item number four, I believethat my academic learning can
contribute to society in thefuture.
It captures dimension of socialcontribution, of course,
illustrating learners'recognition of the academic
efforts, societal relevance, andpotential impacts.
(24:49):
And this is well correlatingclosely with Ikigai 9 item.
I feel that I'm contributing tosomeone or society, of course.
So you have some connection withsociety, reinforcing the
importance of perceivingacademic pursuits as meaningful
and socially beneficial.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
It would have been lovely when I was a student to
have this perspective when I wasin high school, but I really
struggled in high school.
I didn't enjoy learning, and nowI love learning.
And all these items reallyresonate with me now, probably
because I'm learning what I wantto learn or I'm exploring my
(25:29):
curiosities.
It would be wonderful if allstudents kind of felt some of
these items in their study oflanguage or anything.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
Yeah, anything, that's right.
This can be kind of off topic,but uh maybe some teacher may
just focus on like enjoyment orfulfillment.
But there are different aspectsthere.
So ikiga, yariga is not justones, or there are social
meaningfulness oracknowledgement.
So these things all involve.
So it's good for not justteachers but also students to
(25:59):
know in order to make them feelregulate themselves to feel more
yarigai.
What is lacking?
Or maybe this aspect of yariga Istill don't have.
So what is Yariga I can find?
Maybe that that's a good way togo rather than just trying to
like motivate yourself simply.
I don't like it, but I need tolike it.
No, maybe you may like somesocial significance.
(26:20):
So item number five to continue,I think.
When I study, I feel deeplyengaged and lose track of time.
Definitely reflecting the flow,Chicksen Mihai flow theory and
engagement, I would say.
This item assesses the deepabsorption learner's experience,
potentially aligning with Ikigai9 item.
I have room in my mind.
(26:41):
This one is like not completelycorresponding, but you have
enough room.
In order to feel those deepsense of flow, you must have
enough resources or some enoughcognitive reservoir left that
you can utilize to explore more.
So, in that sense, you haveenough room in your mind.
In Japanese, it's called likeUtori, I would say, in mind.
(27:02):
People sometimes criticize UTori as Utori education,
actually, though.
I'm an educational background,so I can say about Utori
education is like Japan, likeAsia.
People tend to just focus a loton like cramming too many
knowledges in high school.
There is some re educationalreformation and having people
should have more room in theirmind, like UTORY, like more
(27:23):
time.
And also instead of cramming toomuch, but they need some time to
think deeper or choose what theywant to learn more or something.
So it kind of echoes that too.
So if there are too many thingsto study, maybe they cannot feel
flow sometimes.
Especially with proper amountand also proper like space in
mind, they can just forget abouttime and enjoy what they want to
(27:47):
study.
SPEAKER_00 (27:48):
I remember reading about Utory generation, and
there was this this intention togive them less homework, and it
failed because they didn'tchange the testing system.
So at the end of this schoolyear, all these students were
failing.
And then I think they're intheir 30s now, maybe in their
mid to late 30s, this generationof Japanese, and often if they
(28:09):
go for job interviews orsomething, and then their
potential employer realizes theywere part of that generation,
there's some prejudice, and theythink, well, oh, you were part
of that lazy generation whodidn't study hard enough.
Yeah, have you heard storieslike that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:25):
Yeah, actually, like I'm one of the oldest tutorial
generation.
I remember I used to like sixdays a week of studying, got
five days.
So Saturday classes, and alsothe textbook got a bit thing,
which I didn't like myselfactually, though.
But I like this spirit.
How it can really actualize oroperationalize is another
(28:45):
question for sure, though.
But of course, if they havestudents, sometimes if students
have more room or space orleisure, they may study, but
they may also less enjoyacademic stuff.
So that's a difficult point forsure.
But uh but I I talk with likepeople, students from not just
from Japan, but kind of similarsituation, for example, like
(29:07):
China, Aquarius to fierceinterest examination, and
students are cramming a lot ofknowledge stuff out there.
So like some students will besuccessful, but that's also kind
of diminishing creativity orcritical thinking or
applicability of the knowledgefor the real life.
So the aim for learning is test.
It has it will be.
So say so how it can change is avery difficult question.
(29:30):
I think we still don't have theanswer, but I like the spirit, I
would say.
Of course, some people may havethose flow experiences with
fierce cramming.
But usually, my my observation,if they are too much imposed on
so many things to study, theymay just be overwhelmed by those
things and they no longer haveenough space, room in mind.
They need some room, but maybesome facilitation to focus on
(29:54):
learning.
I know some students just wantto spend more time reading manga
or video games, which is notalways bad, but you know, of
course if you do that too much,they may end up not studying.
Well, just tapping into thereally difficult question that
we still don't have an answer tothat.
Yutori has its own good side, Iwould say.
I wouldn't say it's everythingis good, but uh the spirit is
good.
Okay.
(30:15):
Item six I feel motivated whenmy academic efforts are
recognized by teachers, peers,or family.
Assessing the recognition andappreciation aspects,
highlighting the motivationalsignificance of External
acknowledgement and itcorresponding to Ikigai 9 item.
I think that my existence isneeded by something or someone.
(30:37):
So how external validationreinforces learner's sense of
purpose.
So it's kind of contrastive tothe first item.
It's like intrinsic fulfillment.
You enjoy it because that'smeaningful.
You feel meaningful.
But there's some nice balanceneeded, like intrinsic
motivation versus extrinsicmotivation.
People usually say intrinsic isimportant.
Extrinsic is like some candy orwhipped situations, so that's
(30:58):
not very good, they say.
But also, if you you just enjoyit, but it's not acknowledged by
anyone.
Well, there's some genius doingthose unacknowledged study, and
then 100 years later it will beI appreciate it.
These things happen, but usuallyyou should get some proper
acknowledgement about some uhevaluation.
(31:18):
So there are some aspects ofexternal validation needed.
So that's uh echoed uh here inthis item.
Item seven, I feel a sense ofaccomplishment when I overcome
difficult academic challenges.
This is about overcomingchallenges, indefinitely,
literally, for this factor.
And also this reflects thesatisfaction derived from the
(31:39):
successfully navigating academicdifficulties.
Kind of mirroring Ikigainaiitem, my life is mentally rich
and fulfilled.
There's this uh concept ofpsychological richness proposed.
There's happiness of life ormeaningfulness of life, but also
there's one more thing, likerichness of life, proposed 10
(32:00):
years ago.
This richness is not just aboutyou have a meaning, but uh you
have a positive feeling.
But there's this third differentdimension.
Like talking more about the richexperience, more emotional
intensity.
It doesn't have to be positive.
Sometimes some negative emotioncan also be intensified too, but
(32:20):
as a result, reflecting oneverything, this was so
meaningful, and then like thisis so rich, so kind of sometimes
dramatic, but it doesn't have tobe completely dramatic, though.
So this rich uh experience isalso echoed here, and also
that's this positive psychology2.0 stuff.
Positive emotion, not justpositive emotion, some kind of
(32:41):
trouble, challenges, confusion,overcoming difficulties in a
long run, leading to veryeudaimonic experience.
It was tough, but so nice toremember.
Item 8 is I can see how myacademic knowledge can be
applied in real life situations,emphasizing the application to
(33:03):
real world relevance, assessinglearners' perception of the
practical applicability ofacademic learning, it aligning
with a guy nine item.
I believe that I have someimpact on someone.
Real world relevance,highlighting the real world
applicability, enhancing theperceived value of academic
(33:23):
activities.
So here is of course related tosocial, but it's a bit more
about agency, I would say.
You are active agency, theagentic thinking.
You are studying not just toabsorb knowledge like a sponge,
but also to use it to sometimeseven like change the society
into a better world or betterplace.
So it's uh some pragmatic spiritin here as well.
SPEAKER_00 (33:47):
Yeah, that one stood out for me as that's Yarigai,
like where's the relevance?
How can we use it in the realworld?
It's not just something we mighttalk about or discuss, it's like
this application.
So I thought that's a strongelement for Yarigai.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
Yes, definitely.
And also for like well-being aswell.
So it's kind of a mixture of allbehavioral, cognitive, and
emotional aspects.
Well, another thing is like, forexample, engagement and
motivation.
People often divide intocognitive, emotional, and
behavioral, and then likeseparately see things.
But for example, this aspect isit's everything.
So it's partly behavioral,backed up by emotional and
(34:26):
cognition.
So this thing is maybe one goodexample showcasing how these
concepts cannot really bedissected to my psychological
concepts here.
So this is kind of holistic initself.
Next one is the final item.
Item nine is I understand how myacademic studies align with my
long-term life goals.
Majoring learners sense ofpurpose in learning and goal
(34:49):
alignment, potentiallycorresponding with Ikigai 9's
item.
I'd like to learn something newor start something.
Suggesting how clearlyarticulated academic goals
connect meaningfully withbroader life ambitions.
So here, like maybe they startsomething, like academic,
(35:09):
especially useful for students.
Of course, they can think aboutsome future goal that has
nothing to do with academicpursuit, but ideally, they're
studying a university, forexample, so they should connect
it, their long-term life goal,with those academic contents
there, and that'll make it deepsense.
So yaddy dye.
SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
Yeah, whenever I say sense of purpose now, I tend to
think of the work of MirkoKamiya, and she wrote
extensively on this in her book.
So it's not just purpose, it'sthis sense or feeling of purpose
that what I'm doing isworthwhile or might be
worthwhile in my future,something I can use, and it's
(35:48):
not just something I'm learningfor the sake of learning.
I think in the West there's alsothis mistake to equate Ikigai
just to purpose.
And as we've explored, it's amultifaceted, multidimensional
concept with all these factorsof intrinsic fulfillment, you
know, curiosity, growth, uh,social contribution, engagement
and flow, recognition andappreciation, overcoming
(36:13):
challenges, and real-worldrelevance and application, and
then yeah, a sense of purpose ispart of the puzzle.
Would you say anyone stands outstronger than others, or is it
very subjective to theindividual?
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
So actually that might relate to my future study.
This scale is actually sometrait yarigai, I would say.
How much you have yarigai inacademic study field in general.
And also this is a self-reportthing.
One limitation of self-reportthing is some people who is
quite eager, motivated, likemore than what actually he or
(36:53):
she is, may report, yes, I havea high sense of meaningfulness
or something.
Especially in Asian context orJapanese context, some people
who are feeling those sense ofenjoyment but kind of modest.
Well, like maybe my score is notthat high.
So there's some of thosesubjective differences out
there.
So whether just comparing theaverage of these scores to what
(37:14):
extent it is really meaningfulis something we have to
carefully check.
But balancing these differentaspects, I mean not just one,
it's possible that some peoplehave very strong yada, but maybe
one or two items, quite a lowscore sometimes, right?
So if that was the case, likewhat's happening to that is nice
to of course there are somestudents, like I said, like a
(37:37):
student who couldn't study forsome reason, but now finally he
or she can come to school andcan study.
So these cases, Yadiga is sohigh in general, so motivated.
Of course, that's kind of anextreme case.
Like if you look closely, maybelike, oh, this person has a
pretty big sense of purpose, butactually there's not enough
(37:59):
social contribution element.
So you might notice that.
In other words, that can be likenot always be sustainable.
Somebody like burnout, I wouldsay.
If someone was so motivated tostudy, a lot to be art guy, but
some kind of burning out mayhappen.
So in that sense, if you lookinto it, for example, oh, this
person has a so big sense ofpurpose or some intrinsic
(38:22):
motivation, intrinsic enjoyment,but maybe completely lacked some
social contribution element tostuff.
So maybe in that case, I meanthat could be bolstered or
supported later.
It could also be used todiagnose highly motivated
people, how that person ishighly motivated or actually, or
even people with not motivation,but in which aspect especially
(38:43):
they have especially low,especially high motivation.
It's quite case by case, I wouldsay.
Model cases will be there, butthat can be even if you look
closely, quite complex anddynamic.
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Well, it is interesting because I guess if
you took the scale, if ourlisteners took the scale and
thought, okay, there's a subjectI'm not really interested in, or
I don't like learning, but Ihave to, maybe they can use this
scale to find a way to actuallyfind meaning or purpose or enjoy
at least the process oflearning.
(39:16):
A usage of the scales, like,well, I I I'm not super
passionate about this subject,but maybe learning this
knowledge, I believe it willhelp me in the future with
social contribution.
Or maybe studying this subject'sactually a challenge.
So it ties to overcomingchallenges.
And it might give the studentmore meaning, purpose, and might
(39:38):
reset their mind on approachingstudy.
SPEAKER_01 (39:42):
There are several paths to Yariga, in other words,
I think.
Yarigay is not just about, okay,do you have the sense of
purpose?
No, sorry, you don't haveYariga.
No, but there's several pathsthere.
You enjoy that intrinsically.
That's one path to approach.
If you feel you're not reallyenjoying it, in fact, but you
strongly feel the socialcontribution, maybe that's
(40:02):
another path to work on.
And maybe that could potentiallylead to another aspect too.
So thinking about it moreflexibly is another way to use
it.
I think there are like maybepotentially like nine different
aspects to approach, which youdon't have to excel at
everything from the beginning,but maybe like something that
you can start better, focus onbetter, for a better yarigai.
(40:24):
And then you can expand it moreto others.
SPEAKER_00 (40:27):
Yeah, actually, to quote you, academic yarigai
fills a critical gap byemphasizing the lived
experiential quality of academictasks, which traditional
motivational theories ofteninadequately address.
So I think that's what we'retalking about.
It does give people a chance tofind a way to do these academic
(40:51):
tasks with lived experience,rather than it being just a form
of motivation that makes onestudy.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
I think you called it from my motivation and
academic yaragai section.
Especially motivations, thereare a lot of theories out there
actually, which is sometimes thevalidity of the construct is
criticized.
Motivation.
Motivation is kind ofmetaphorically explained as a
kind of some energy, like all ofsome gasoline or some fuel to
(41:19):
make you be more engaged andinvolved in something.
Whether that metaphor is reallyvalid or not is actually
debatable.
Actually, there's this bookNaming the Mind published in
1990 or something.
This construct of motivation isactually quite new.
So there's those energy metaphorcoming out.
(41:39):
But uh, before it was like willor it was conceptualized quite
differently.
So actually, this motivationconcept itself is so new, and we
don't know whether this is anatural kind.
I didn't even publish a paperabout the fall of motivation,
basically criticizing that.
So potentially maybe emotion canexplain better.
Emotion is a kind of naturalkind, but maybe motivation is
(42:02):
maybe not always so so in thatsense, of course.
Uh this motivational theory isthere are a lot of intricate
studies.
Like, for example, in in myfield, this famous theory goes
like ideal self, ought to self.
So I have this, I want to belike this vision that's giving
me some motivation.
Or I don't want to be, but Iought to be ought to self.
Well, they have their ownimportant implications and
(42:24):
meaningfulness, but whether theyreally capture this emotional
dynamics, not just about I havethis goal, so I want to do that
kind of thing, but moreenjoyment, everything
organically put together.
Maybe that you need to likeconsult different emotion
concepts and theories, somethingsomehow organically
incorporating it into sixingnine factors.
(42:47):
That kind of tap into uh evenemotions too.
For example, this uhquestionnaire uh is only nine
items, usually, which is so alot of those nice validated
items, uh dozens of itemssometimes.
But something that may happen isculturally that may be
different.
Like there is this enjoymentscale in like foreign language
(43:08):
learning, enjoyment scale is aquite popular and famous one
there.
But then through a lot ofdifferent question items trying
to measure the student'senjoyability, but sometimes that
includes like I laugh a lot inclass, or we have some internal
joke in class or something.
But for example, in Asiancontext, students really
enjoying learning, but do theylaugh a lot or do they like a
(43:31):
joke with each other?
Maybe not not always.
Statistically really validated,actually, the factor analysis
and all reliability checking aredone actually.
But there's this culturaldifference out there, I would
say.
Of course, trying to like morecarefully grasp the idea of
enjoyment itself has somepotential limitation, I would
(43:52):
say.
For example, like some quietstudents really having a sense
of learning, enjoying it, butnot really laughing or
socializing or enjoying.
Maybe they'll score for thoseparts can be lower.
So kind of trying to likeincorporate a lot of items has
its own limitations.
Statistically, it's reallyimportant, especially like
diagnosing or like utilizing itas a guideline.
(44:16):
So this academic yarigai scale,nine items, is not only about
those scale to major students'level of yarigai, but kind of
like nine important aspects forthem or students or teachers to
think about.
So in that case, maybe it's alsopossible to increase items more
and more, like for example, onefactor, like five items or
something, but that's like quitelong list of survey.
(44:39):
But of course, to start withsomething as succinct like this,
and then basically one factor,one statement, and whether they
can reflect on whether they havethis already successfully
accomplished or not, is maybemore useful, like qualitative
psychologically rather thanquantitative psychologically
(44:59):
speaking.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
Yeah, I remember reading one of the reasons why
the Ikigai 9 scale was createdwas these researchers realized,
the original authors of thepaper realized we're using all
these foreign scales to try andmeasure ikigai, like the meaning
in life scale, the purpose inlife scale, when we should
really be measuring Ikigai inthe context of Japanese culture.
(45:22):
So I think that's part of thereason why they decided to make
the Ikigai 9 scale.
And then one thing I've noticedin many scales, there's usually
some form of control questionwhere there's a sort of a
negative statement, but Inoticed that's not the case with
Ikigai 9.
And I also know that the peoplewho learn it find it very
helpful for engaging indiscussions, coaching
(45:46):
conversations.
And I'm kind of amazed thatobviously in daily life we don't
talk about these subjects orthemes because we're busy with
life, and most of the time wecomplain about things.
The scale, obviously, the EKI9and now your scale gives us this
opportunity to discuss obviouslylearning or life with these
(46:10):
different angles, contributionor growth, or these inner
states.
Do I have utility?
Do I have this mental space?
Is my life fulfilled?
I guess one question I would askis what's your advice for
teachers or coaches with thisscale to help their clients or
their students?
SPEAKER_01 (46:30):
That's a really good question, actually.
That's kind of like uh moreanswering, not as a
psychologist, but as someeducator myself.
Like I said, so well, like onefurther study for this paper is
actually this academic arraynine scale.
Ideally, there should be morevalidation, reliability
checking.
(46:50):
But that could also mean morefact analysis, and maybe there
should be more items, and it'sgonna be kind of longer, more
complex, I would say.
Which is psychologically good,but something I think is good is
already in its form, like thisnine items, like not using it
for statistics or quantitativestudy, but qualitatively.
So think about them like nineimportant elements of successful
(47:13):
Yari guy or academic yarigai.
So we don't have to use it forthis Likerscale one to five
questions.
Whether do I have, or does thestudent or does the client have
intrinsic fulfillment,curiosity, intellectual
stimulation, personal growth,self-development?
So they're like nine gates orlike nine approaches to more
(47:34):
organic Yariga.
This Yarigai is quite a holisticconcept.
Of course, there are a lot ofways to more dissect
psychological sense ofmeaningfulness into more like
diverse factors.
But this Yarigai likeorganically trying to
incorporate these things,everything.
So these are not consisting ofnine pieces.
(47:55):
It's not a cake, right?
It's not like nine pieces puttogether one whole cake, but
it's more like nine entrance, Iwould say, like nine gates, I
would say.
And then inside is quite welllike mingled together.
So like that's statisticallyspeaking, so they are kind of
overlapping, or like it's maybesome superfluous ideas or
there's limitation that can bescientifically speaking, but so
like which gate you start with,for example, you really absorb
(48:20):
and you forget about time flow.
I mean, that's maybe a nice wayto go into it.
Or maybe you have somechallenges, maybe trying to
start with the overcomingchallenges and trying to couple
it with some other personalgrowth element or fulfillment
growth element, and then liketrying to like mix it well.
So these things, these areasmore about art than science.
But in order to do art too,there should be some good
(48:42):
conceptual guidance, I wouldsay.
So these nine factors, Ibelieve, can work as pretty good
coaching or teaching some ideas.
Okay, how can I make or helpthis client or student more
fulfilled, or like utilizingthis concept Yarika field?
Oh, maybe this person is weak inthis factor, so we should work
(49:03):
more, or this student alreadyhaving some strong something.
Well, this factor is quitestrong, so maybe helping, you
know, utilizing it as a guidinglight, and then like other, but
trying to supplement it withother factors or something.
And then that will be, I think,will relate to some
sustainability as well.
Of course, it's likesustainability is kind of quite
recent, like buzzword in manyfields, but academic
(49:25):
sustainability, like uh avoidingburnout, I would say.
So maybe if you are somebodyreally strong in Yarigai, if
that is supported only by one ortwo factors, if that factor kind
of no longer is so powerful,maybe the person may experience
some burning out.
So in that sense, while you haveenough power or room in mind,
(49:50):
trying to like expand yourYarigai network and somehow, for
example, really enjoying, butnot just enjoying, but trying to
helping it, connecting it moreto social contribution or more
challenging overcomingchallenges.
And after that, for example,even when the students or the
person's intrinsic enjoymentfulfillment element decreased
(50:11):
for some reason, if they haveother important factors, they
can just keep on their Yari guyinvolved endeavor uh more
sustainably.
So in that way too, this can beused.
And also like these things arerelatively intuitive, I believe.
So how to interpret so it can benot just Yari academic, I would
say.
(50:32):
I this is a situation for likeuniversity students.
I made it academic, but well, itcan be depending on some
professional situations orwhatever, or maybe this
adjective academic could bereplaced with some other things,
like depending on who the clientis or the students are.
So I believe this can be usedlike that, to like as a
(50:54):
diagnosis, conceptual tools forholistic and sustainable area
field uh endeavor, and thatdefinitely leads to well-being
or like well-being of theirlives.
Like I often use this, not ametaphor, but some people
seriously study, but after 5p.m.
(51:14):
or something, they just forgetabout okay, now it's about the
time to enjoy, which is nice.
But ideally, like I'm a kind ofperson who try to put life into
what I do, like put life intowhat I study.
So not just okay, it's time tostudy, okay, okay, it's time to
just relax, completelyseparated.
That's well, that's nice.
(51:35):
Uh, there's no criticism, butfor a life to be more holistic,
I would say, what you do, whatyou love, what you feel yariga
involved, that will make itpretty like so it's not clear
separation of leisure and work.
And that can be one of the waysapproaches to well-being, and
trying to incorporate as many asan also uh yarigae and also as
(51:58):
deeply as possible will makeyour work, job, study, um, more
part of your like well-beingitself, too.
So that's kind of my vision.
SPEAKER_00 (52:10):
I think the scale also highlights these are the
benefits of learning.
These are the benefits ofstudying.
So if you study, there's growthand development.
Um, you can reach states offlow.
Uh you can learn something andthen maybe apply it and have
some real-world uh relevance orusage.
(52:31):
You might even feel a sense ofpurpose as you study
intellectual stimulation.
And I think the more we learn,it's a good thing.
You've obviously spent a lot oftime learning English.
Was learning English a source ofikiguy or yadigai for you?
You're, you know, a fluentspeaker, you've written papers
(52:52):
in English, so you're veryproficient.
Uh thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (52:58):
Actually, English has been a subject that I'm good
at, actually.
But uh of course, but languageit itself, well, I'm interested
in like learning other languagestoo, actually.
But language is definitely atool, not just a tool, but uh
through language, you can expandyour horizon.
Of course, pragmatically, youcan communicate with people
(53:20):
around the world, differentpoint of view, and also you can
learn different culture,different ways of thinking, just
by even just by learning it.
And also you come to noticedeeply in your own language as
well, because you know,sometimes that languages have a
lot of dynamic influence, oh forexample, like English, or like
all Chinese or what otherlanguages.
(53:41):
Like this idea is quite similar,but this is different.
So you can kind of compare it inyourself, and that's a good
cognitive like training usertoo.
And even there's some studies orneuroscience studies suggesting
for like bilingual modeling ofpeople having some uh less less
likely to have dementia orsomething.
So maybe cognitively speakingtoo, like making your brain
(54:04):
quite flexible, right?
And also this so in other words,language learning itself is
quite uh possibly a place forYaregai to it's not just you
enjoy learning new things,you're curious, but also social
relevance because you know youcan communicate with people or
read some things that's notwritten in your mother tongue
and stuff, and and recognize,appreciate because you know you
(54:24):
can talk with people, and ofcourse, challenges involved and
real-world relevance is reallyrelevant because language is
used.
People are there.
So a sense of purpose, you know,by learning is meaningful.
So, in that sense, of course, uhtopic of language learning or
foreign language is thatdefinitely one of the topics
(54:44):
that's related to this academicYari guy, relevant to fill with
a lot of those epistemicemotions or surprise.
SPEAKER_00 (54:54):
Ikigai brought us together.
We basically started tocommunicate, we've met in
person, and now we've had thisconversation all because of
starting from one word.
So it's quite powerful.
Even one word can change yourlife.
It's ikingai's obviously changedmy life.
Yeah, yeah.
So I I do recommend having aninterest in other languages and
(55:17):
and learning it.
And maybe with your scale,people can be inspired to
approach it with uh Yarigai, uh,this desire to do it for all
these benefits.
So I think we've talked for overan hour and 20 minutes.
So thank you for sharing yourknowledge, for joining me today.
(55:38):
It was great to meet you.
I look forward to more of yourfuture papers that uh hopefully
you'll publish in English, soit'll be easy for me to read
them.
SPEAKER_01 (55:47):
Yeah, basically plan to do that.
And also, yeah, my progress uhis an ongoing project, so I'm
even expanding more and moreinto like situational Yarigai,
like like Yari guy.
This Yarigai is like more abouttreat Yarigai, but more about
each task.
Task Yarigai.
That's something I'm alsoworking on too.
So yeah, there will be morepapers and presentations and
(56:10):
other stuff.
So usually I put those things onmy social media and other
things.
So yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:15):
Awesome.
I'll look forward to that.
Maybe we'll do another podcastwhen you've written another
paper.
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, thank you for joining metoday.
SPEAKER_01 (56:25):
Yeah, it's my pleasure and uh so nice another
pretty good, I would say,Yarigai moment.
Communicating with people andyeah, nice discussion.
That's definitely an Yarigai.
Yarigai atta name.
Yarigai, yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.