February 12, 2025 • 33 mins
This episode delves into the intriguing and often controversial world of presidential pardons. We explore their historical significance, the motivations behind notable pardons, and the broader implications for justice and political integrity.
• Examination of the constitutional power granted to presidents
• Insights into the scale of pardons under recent administrations
• Discussion of the types of pardons: full, commutations, and reprieves
• Analysis of cases like Patty Hearst and political implications
• Reflections on the intersection of pardons and public perception
• Consideration of the ethical dimensions surrounding the pardoning power
• Exploration of the tradition of pardoning turkeys at Thanksgiving
• Conclusion emphasizing the need for ongoing scrutiny of pardoning practices
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rob (00:00):
So what do you think of Thanksgiving, turkey and?
Victor (00:01):
Richard Nixon have in common they both broke into the
Watergate complex to stealDemocratic National Committee
documents.
Cesar (00:11):
That was very specific, yeah, very precise Very precise
yeah.
I can't follow that.
Victor (00:19):
You guys don't know Watergate.
Rob (00:22):
Well, they both got pardoned.
So today we're diving deep intothe world of presidential
pardons.
What are they, how do they workand why are they such a
lightning rod for controversy,from historical precedent to
constitutional authority?
We'll explore the storiesbehind these final acts of
clemency.
I'm not dumb, but what's apresidential pardon?
Cesar (00:42):
Welcome to the I'm not dumb, but podcast, where we
won't claim to have the answersto life's deepest questions but
we'll give you an excitingjourney into the realms of
knowledge you never knew you'deither.
Might be mainstream, but notcommon knowledge.
From artificial intelligence toconspiracy theories, no topic
is too taboo for us to explore.
Let's get curious together.
Rob (01:02):
I'm Rob, your host for today, joined by the man who's
currently working on his fourthmaster's at the University of
Ancient Aliens, cesar Almostdone, the most stand-up guy I
know Victor how y'all doing?
And, of course, chris Yo.
On January 20th 2025, in thewaning hours of their
(01:22):
presidencies, two Americanleaders wielded one of the most
extraordinary powers granted tothe office the power of the
pardon.
Cesar (01:31):
It's magnificent.
Rob (01:33):
Incoming President, donald J Trump, made headlines with an
unprecedented move, granting afull and unconditional pardon to
1,500 individuals convicted ofcrimes connected to the January
6, 2021 Capitol insurrection.
Additionally, he commuted thesentences of 14 others involved
in the events of that day, adecision bound to spark fierce
(01:55):
debate about justice,accountability and political
messaging.
You guys hear about this, yes,but did you also hear that
meanwhile, 20 minutes before hewas about to leave office,
president Joe Biden issued fivefamily pardons and a move that
stunned political landscape,pardoning his brother James,
(02:15):
sister Valerie, three otherclose family members and even
including the infamous COVIDresponse chief, anthony.
Victor (02:23):
Fauci, and there was a general also.
Yes, yes, I did read about thegeneral.
Ironically, it's not even like,wasn't even under Biden's
administration.
It was Trump's administration.
The general under him.
Chris (02:37):
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, Biden gave it out like itwas like a fucking Halloween.
You know, candies, like you getone, you get one, you get one,
you get one.
Cesar (02:46):
But the crazy thing about it is like there was a bigger
uproar for that than there was aTrump one.
Rob (02:52):
Yes, Well, we'll get into why there was a little bit of a
uproar about that and maybeit'll make a little more sense.
So Biden claimed the action wasa shield against political
retribution rather than anyadmission of wrongdoing.
These pardons, announced justminutes before he left the
Capitol, left Americanswondering about the limits and
the ethics of this remarkablepresidential power.
(03:12):
So why are we talking aboutpresidential pardons today?
Because this single act ofabsolute, unchecked power
granted by the Constitution hasthe potential to rewrite justice
.
It can redefine legacies and itcan reshape public trust.
Cesar (03:27):
Such power, it's raw power.
Rob (03:29):
But to understand why this matters so much, we need to
start with the basics.
So what exactly is apresidential pardon?
Chris (03:37):
Is it when the government they forgive everything, pretty
much your crimes or whatnotjust goes away?
Victor (03:44):
I think it depends on what the pardon is for exactly,
but basically it's a get out ofjail free card.
Like how do you get it?
Do you have to apply for it?
Do you know the president?
Cesar (03:53):
Yeah.
Rob (03:54):
You have connections.
I mean if you're cool with thepresident, you get it.
Victor (03:56):
I think also governors can give pardons though as well,
but only like for state crimes.
Rob (04:01):
Let's clear it up.
So pardon is an executive actthat forgives someone for a
federal crime, essentiallywiping away their punishment.
So under Article 2, section 2of the United States, my
favorite article.
The Constitution gives thepresident the authority to grant
reprieves and pardons foroffenses against the United
States, except in cases ofimpeachment.
(04:23):
The Supreme Court interpretedthis power as plenary, or in
other words unrestricted andabsolute, meaning it's extremely
broad and largely free fromcongressional interference.
So there was like a landmarkcase, called like Expart Garland
in 1866, and another one inUnited States First Klein in
(04:44):
1871.
And this pretty much made itclear Congress cannot limit the
ability to pardon.
This is up to the president, athis disposal.
But this authority didn'tappear out of thin air.
Its roots trace back to Englishhistory, where it's known as
the prerogative of mercy.
So it first emerged during the17th century reign of King Ina
(05:08):
of Wessex.
While the power faced abusesover time, it persisted through
the American colonial period andbecame part of our constitution
thanks to Alexander Hamilton.
So at the constitutionalconvention Hamilton argued for a
strong, expansive pardon powerto reside solely for the
president, separate of thejudicial system.
Cesar (05:31):
I should really see that musical.
Have you not seen it?
I haven't seen it, it's on.
Rob (05:35):
Disney+.
I haven't seen it either.
I want to see it live.
Do your, it's very expensive, Iknow.
Cesar (05:40):
Are you talking about Alexander Hamilton?
Victor (05:42):
What was his deal?
Why was he so pushy on it?
What was he trying to hide?
I?
Rob (05:46):
don't know, I didn't get into that, he was just all about
it though.
Victor (05:50):
It seems kind of weird, though.
He just wakes up.
He's like man.
The president should be able topardon any crime.
Pumpy breaks key.
Chris (06:00):
That man's a national treasure.
Rob (06:01):
I think it comes down to what pardons give, and we're
going to talk about that, but Ithink they're actually needed in
certain cases.
So let's break down pardons andcommutations, okay.
So first we have a full pardonwhich completely erases a
conviction.
That's the one Chris wastalking about Fully on
everything's gone.
Then you have a commutation,and so this reduces the
(06:22):
sentences but doesn't clearanyone of a conviction.
Then you have a reprieve whichcan delay punishment, and then
amnesty, which is basically ablanket pardon for a bunch of
people.
So that's kind of what trumpdid 1500 people, blanket pardon,
amnesty for a while.
Victor (06:41):
yeah, and amnesty, like their earlier work was a lot
better than their newer stuff.
If that's a joke, I don't getit Like it's a band.
Rob (06:49):
I got it.
Is that like an English band?
Victor (06:51):
Yeah.
Rob (06:53):
Killed?
No, nobody.
But here's the kicker with thispower, it has a few limitations
.
A crime must have beencommitted to issue a pardon,
which is weird, because JoeBiden just issued a preemptive
pardon when no crimes werecommitted and there was no idea
of wrongdoing.
So that's why his pardon isgetting a lot of traction,
(07:14):
because he's using it in a waythat I think had not been used
before.
Victor (07:19):
I don't think that's true with the preemptive pardon,
that Biden was the first to doit.
Oh, who did it then?
Wouldn't Nixon have been thefirst to do it?
Because Nixon was never chargedof any crimes.
Rob (07:30):
But Nixon, wasn't he indicted?
No, and I think Ford is the onethat.
Victor (07:36):
That's why he resigned, because he thought it was coming
.
Rob (07:39):
Yeah, but I don't think Nixon pardoned himself.
Victor (07:41):
No, it was the next president.
Rob (07:44):
Yeah, preemptive pardons is a pretty big one, because
usually you need to be committedto a crime or, you know, be
caught up in something.
Chris (07:51):
So basically, you're getting a free jail card before
the crime.
Rob (07:55):
Before the crime.
So in Biden's case it was likethere was a threat of someone
going after his family, so hejust kind of got the jump on it.
Cesar (08:06):
So there was no trial.
Rob (08:07):
No, nothing.
His brother and his sister andhis grandma.
Victor (08:12):
No, it was to prevent political persecution towards
his family and friends andwhatever.
We're not seeing any of thatnow, though.
Chris (08:21):
And as far as I'm concerned, the Biden family is a
criminal enterprise.
Rob (08:26):
It really is crime must be committed and it only applies to
federal offenses, not statecrimes, which is something
victor said and the presidentcan't use the power to pardon or
nullify impeachment.
So it's kind of like the threekey limitations.
Right beyond those boundaries,the president has significant
freedom to decide how and whento use this power.
Victor (08:45):
When, exactly when, I say it.
Rob (08:48):
So throughout American history, presidents have used
the power of pardon in ways thathave shaped the nation.
So the very first part in whichone do you think it was?
Victor (08:57):
It was Hamilton.
Rob (08:59):
He was never president.
Because, he was from theCaribbean.
Victor (09:03):
Was he?
I don't fucking't fucking.
Rob (09:05):
I didn't watch the play you got to get back into that man
disney.
Victor (09:10):
Plus I'll give you my uh password I bet you it was grant
roosevelt jackson.
Oh good, one good answer.
Rob (09:17):
Yeah, I like that jackson doesn't get enough love.
Yeah, you're all wrong.
It was george Washington in1794.
Of course, yeah.
Chris (09:25):
I mean it's an easy one.
Rob (09:26):
I said the first presidential pardon, Like just
go with the first president.
You got this awesome power andyou're not going to use it.
Chris (09:32):
Are you serious?
I just told you that.
Rob (09:35):
So he pardoned the participants of the Whiskey
Rebellion.
So the rebellion was an armeduprising in 1794 by farmers and
distillers in westernPennsylvania and it stemmed from
anger over a federal excise taxon distilled spirits.
They pretty much were up inarms and in order to cool
everything down they kind ofstopped and then he just
(09:55):
pardoned everyone so thateveryone kind of got over it and
it kind of helped the nation.
That's this whole idea, right?
So the pardon basically grantedmercy amongst these people, but
also cool tensions in, like thepolitical space.
So I think that's really thekey here, why Hamilton wanted it
, because it has a useful tool.
We're gonna be cool.
(10:16):
Governors also have the power topardon for state crimes, but
their rules are a littledifferent.
So according to the ACLU, thereare 15 states where governors
are basically the kings andqueens of clemency.
They have full, sole authorityto pardon and grant clemency
whenever they see fit, noquestions asked.
So some states include, likeAlabama, arkansas, california,
(10:38):
colorado but in some of theother states it's a little
different.
The governor still has thepower to grant clemency, but
it's only a recommendation.
It has to go through a clemencyboard or some sort of advisory
group and this system, basically, is built in to add, like some
layers of accountability.
Cesar (10:55):
Is the governor on the board or?
Rob (10:57):
no, no, it's a totally different board.
And then there's other stateslike Georgia, nebraska, nevada,
utah, where the governors havebasically no power and it's 100%
up to the board, and that's theway it's kind of broken down in
our system.
So, the process of pardoning,how do you guys think you do it?
Victor (11:17):
Oh, you got to fill out the proper forms.
That's the P1A, the P1D.
You need them in duplicate andyou need them in notarized Black
ink only Black ink, only inprint, and it needs to be signed
and dated With Trump in office.
Cesar (11:33):
I would just send him a DM.
Yo, I need a pardon, bro.
Victor (11:38):
You got a truth social him.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So I'll send him a message ontruth social.
Cesar (11:45):
I'll tell him that I'm thinking about buying Dogecoin
Dogecoin.
Chris (11:52):
Doge, is that different?
Victor (11:53):
than Fordcoin, possibly Chevycoin.
Rob (11:59):
I'm thinking about getting a Dodge.
What do?
Chris (12:00):
you think?
Victor (12:01):
I want to look into those Dodgecoins.
Chris (12:08):
Dogecoin is my favorite cryptocurrency because it has
the best humor and has dogs.
Rob (12:10):
The president may grant pardons on their own accord or
in response to requests madethrough the us department of
justice's office of the pardonattorney.
You could either dm trump, andhe can just do whatever he wants
you.
You got to send Kim K.
Cesar (12:23):
Kim K can get you right in, so if you would go with her,
you got to buy a house with theSkims, or is it Skims or Skins?
Victor (12:30):
Who knows who gives a shit.
It's not trying to hide yourfat ass.
Maybe if you had a businessthat you were passionate about,
then you would know what ittakes to run a business.
But you don't.
Rob (12:43):
Or you have to go through the office of the pardon
attorney, and in which caseyou're exactly right.
You have to fill out a form anddo all these things.
So, in order to do that, thepardon attorney investigates and
reviews all applications ofclemency, but serves only as an
advisory role, and the way itworks is yeah, you basically
petition the office of thepardoned attorney for a federal
(13:05):
crime that you may havecommitted.
You include details about theconviction, your behavior
afterwards, reasons for beingpardoned, some letters of
support from family members orfriends.
They do a thorough backgroundinvestigation, as we know, and
then, after that, they reviewyour application and submit it
to the president.
(13:26):
Um, but it's ultimately thepresident's decision.
So, oh, okay, and that's that'show that process goes so what?
Chris (13:34):
what do you think about um luigi?
Do you think he's gonna getpardoned?
Victor (13:38):
no, no that was outright murder, I know.
But yeah, we, yeah, we live inan oligarchy.
Now Like this is wherecompanies are ruling us.
Open for business player Openfor business.
Cesar (13:55):
Do you think they did?
Rob (13:56):
1,500 single applications or just one copy and paste?
No, I think they didn't evenfill out applications.
Well, they might have, theymight have.
They probably just did one.
Yeah, I think it was justoverall overarching In that
situation they might have, theymight have.
They're probably just doing one.
And yeah, I think it was justoverall overarching and in that
situation they wouldn't reallyneed it.
The president can just go aheadand do it.
There was actually some peoplethat he pardoned that actually
turned their pardon down.
Yes, I was going to ask youabout that?
Victor (14:16):
Yeah, I have heard about that.
Rob (14:17):
Yeah, but if you looked at their term, some of them didn't
really do a lot of time.
It was like I think one ladywas like 60 days, another guy
wasn't that long, so they werejust like no time served.
I'm kind of past it.
Chris (14:35):
If you get pardoned.
Is there some kind of catch?
Is there some kind of rules orsomething?
Rob (14:37):
that comes with it that you have to follow afterward.
So a full pardon, everything iswiped clean.
There's the other one whereyour conviction still stands
right.
Chris (14:46):
Your sentence, yeah but there's no such thing.
It's like you get full, full-onpardon, but if you get caught
again there, you're like, youknow, like your punishment.
Victor (14:56):
There there could be a time frame, like for for biden's
pardon.
There was a time frame.
So he basically said in thepast, whatever many years?
They committed crimes, they areabsolved of those sins.
I don't know.
Let's say you commit fraud orsomething like that, or tax
evasion.
I don't know.
Something small, I don't wantto get too serious.
Let's say you steal a loaf ofbread and you get pardoned, and
(15:17):
then 10 years later you go andsteal the loaf of bread.
That is a different crime.
Cesar (15:22):
Yes.
Chris (15:23):
Right.
Rob (15:23):
Yes.
Victor (15:25):
That is a different crime.
Yes, right, yes, it is not thesame crime.
So why do we pardon?
Because we're forgiving Powermove.
Cesar (15:29):
Yeah, if I'm the president, I'm pardoning
everybody, all my homies, I'mswinging that power it's given
to me, I'm going to take it.
You get one, you get one, and alot of the times it's going to
come down to that.
Rob (15:39):
Pardons are about mercy.
They're a way to correctinjustices and offer second
chances to reformed individuals.
Also, they're a way to healnational wounds during times of
division.
So it is a political move.
Yeah, you can get your friendsout.
You can get other people out ofjail.
If you see someone who has beenrehabilitated and yes, they're
(16:00):
doing better, but the system andthey're caught in this
bureaucratic cycle the presidentcan go in there, cut all the
red tape and put mercy andjustice upon this person, which
is a great power to have.
But they also help in times ofdivision.
Let's look at a story here withBrigham Young's pardon.
You guys ever heard about thisstory?
Cesar (16:17):
Isn't that a school, Utah right.
Rob (16:20):
Mormons.
BYU in the hall, white so in the1850s, brigham Young, a
charismatic leader of the Mormonchurch, is essentially running
Utah as his own theocratickingdom.
So a theocracy is a system ofgovernment in which priests rule
in the name of God.
The federal government led byPresident James Buchanan at the
(16:40):
time is deeply suspicious ofYoung and the Mormon settlers.
Why?
Well, because the Mormons hadtheir own laws, their own
militia and their owncontroversial practices like
polygamy and a bunch of otherthings.
So tensions came to a head withthe Utah War of 1857 to 1858.
Buchanan declared that Youngand his followers were in an
(17:02):
open rebellion against theUnited States of America and he
sent thousands of troops to Utahto suppress what he saw as a
Mormon uprising.
The full-on federal army of theUnited States of America goes
marching down to Utah tobasically squash this kingdom
that's trying to develop itself.
But the war never escalatedinto a full-scale violence, why
(17:26):
Buchanan offered a blanketpardon to Young and the entire
Mormon community.
This was basically a strategicmove to de-escalate the
situation and reassert federalcontrol.
So they surrounded the wholeplace and basically gave them an
out.
Did they disband their militia?
No, they still have it.
No, I think they did, or theytook on some of them.
(17:48):
So Brigham Young's pardon pavedthe way for Utah to eventually
become a state, but it also lefta legacy of mistrust between
the Mormons and the USgovernment.
So this was like a prettyhighly controversial pardon at
the time.
Victor (18:03):
Did you see the Book of Mormon?
I did.
Rob (18:05):
And it's really good Also on Disney+.
Chris (18:09):
I saw that one live.
Victor (18:10):
Two by two, we're marching door to door Also.
Cesar (18:13):
he sounds weak.
Rob (18:14):
Who Brigham.
Cesar (18:15):
No Ken.
Rob (18:16):
Actually they said that that was one of the big things
about his term.
So pardons can be highlycontroversial, and some critics
think that they're a tool forpolitical favoritism, rewarding
allies or even donors.
So this line between justiceand abuse of power gets very
blurry.
So let's look at another onehere.
So you guys ever heard of PattyHearst?
Victor (18:37):
Yeah, she's like a writer, right.
Rob (18:39):
Her grandfather was William Randolph Hearst.
Victor (18:42):
Oh, she's an actress.
Rob (18:43):
So Patty Hearst, the granddaughter of publishing
magnate William Randolph Hearst,was kidnapped in 1974 by the
Symbionese Liberation Army, aleftist militant group is what
the government categorizes themas.
This is the story that we know.
So while in captivity, she wasreportedly brainwashed and later
(19:06):
adopted their ideology.
Taking the name Tanya, she wasfamously photographed
participating in an armedrobbery of a bank in San
Francisco.
Her involvement led to herarrest in 1975, where she was
charged and convicted of bankrobbery.
Despite claiming she had beencoerced, her case sparked public
debate about whether she wasactually a victim or a willing
(19:30):
participant.
So, after serving 22 months ofa seven-year sentence, her
sentence was commuted byPresident Jimmy Carter in 1979.
And later, in 2001, shereceived a full pardon from
President Bill Clinton,officially clearing her criminal
record.
Chris (19:47):
She's like a great example of a really rich person.
Rob (19:52):
Patty Hearst's pardon was very controversial because there
was a lot of questions aboutprivilege.
She came from a very wealthyfamily.
Her grandfather was a verywell-known person.
You guys probably know theHearst Castle, right?
No idea what that is?
Yeah, I don't know what thefuck you're talking about know
the Hearst Castle, right?
Victor (20:05):
No idea what that is.
Yeah, I don't know what thefuck you're talking about Hearst
Castle.
No.
Rob (20:08):
Out in California, nope, nope.
Victor (20:10):
Is it on fire?
Is it haunted?
Rob (20:13):
This was one of those debates that was maybe an
example of cronyism.
This guy was very wealthy andhe did contribute a lot to
certain sides.
Victor (20:26):
But again I feel like if you don't have an end into the
white house, you're fucked likeyou're not gonna get a pardon.
Cesar (20:31):
But this is what that privilege uh gets you or a
groundswell of support, popularsupport.
One of those two things.
Chris (20:39):
But if you're a nobody, no one fucking was there a time
where the president gave outpardon and then, because the
public, he took it back.
Or is there can did you can?
Is that possible or the no?
Victor (20:51):
take back sees rule.
Chris (20:51):
Yeah, um in article five two section four oh, I might
have missed that five secondrule and no take back, oh okay,
that's word for word.
When alexander hamilton wroteno, take taxis.
Rob (21:06):
That would cause chaos in this country.
No vaccines mean something youhave to have an in that's or
there has to be a huge followingbehind you.
This is completely politicallymotivated or it's complete
cronyism, but that's the power.
You're the president.
You know you won monopoly andyou're like all right, I'm gonna
get my friend out of jail, I'mgonna going to buy a couple of
places on Baltic.
(21:26):
I'm going to do whatever I want.
I want this game.
Cesar (21:28):
Because that might be off , but I have heard that after
some Netflix documentaries somepeople like on Death Row or To
the World In Jail.
They were pardoned Because newinformation games like Netflix
is big, has a big audience andyou know it got all the way to
the White House or to theindividual in charge of yeah,
(21:49):
but again.
Victor (21:49):
but how many people are falsely incarcerated and don't
have a Netflix special?
That's a good point.
So it's like those.
They're just lucky to be honest.
But it's a good look, it's agood.
Rob (22:00):
Look, let's say I'm the president.
It's a PR thing.
It's a huge.
I agree with that.
It's a huge PR thing Because ifI see all these people on
Netflix chanting for this guy heprobably submitted an
application 20 years ago itlooks probably good because they
vetted everything on him andI'm like it's an election year.
Yeah, maybe I'll drum up a fewvotes this way and you go ahead
(22:21):
and pardon one guy and you mightget a lot of support on the
other end.
Cesar (22:24):
It's not a bad move, my fellow Americans, I'm going to
pardon this guy but don't lookat the price of eggs, because
they're $30.
Rob (22:34):
The stomach is speaking.
It always does.
Back to Trump and present day.
While President Trump'spardoning of 1,500 January 6th
rioters is up there, who do youthink holds the record for the
most presidential pardons in oneday?
Chris (22:44):
I was going to say Biden.
Victor (22:46):
Oh, did you do the reading?
Rob (22:47):
yeah, did you no, I didn't read, it, just did the reading
he's a nerd reading bro he readahead.
Cesar (22:52):
I want to say bush, but I think it might be our boy obama
has to be biden.
Chris (22:57):
Do you remember that?
I think it was like a one dayhe literally gave it out to like
fucking whole america.
I didn't get one, chris Ididn't get it.
Victor (23:02):
Yeah, the fuck does that mean?
Cesar (23:03):
because I'm thinking about doing a crime'm thinking
about doing a crime.
Rob (23:07):
So, Chris, yeah, you're right Joe Biden, on January 17th
, near the last days of hispresidency, commuted the
sentences of nearly 2,500 peopleconvicted of nonviolent drug
offenses, cementing his legacyas the president who has issued
the most individual pardons andcommutations in US history in
one day.
Come on man.
(23:27):
This is an article by NBC.
Biden said in a statement thatthis would help equalize
sentencing disparities.
Biden pardoned the most peoplein one day, but who do you think
pardoned the most people intheir presidency?
Yeah, overall Biden.
I was going to say Biden too.
Chris (23:42):
Yeah, yes, biden, that was also Biden.
I was going to say Biden too,yeah.
Rob (23:45):
Yes, biden, that was also Biden, yeah, so in his four
years he pardoned over 4,200people.
Just to give you some measure,caesar, who did you say you
thought pardoned the most peoplein one day?
Cesar (24:01):
Bush, sagawin.
Rob (24:03):
He pardoned only 200 people , ooh yeah.
And his father pardoned 77.
Ooh.
But you got to remember thiswhen they run these numbers,
because I was looking at howthey break it down.
They break it up into pardonsand commutations.
So Biden commuted the sentencesof 2,500 people, so that
doesn't count.
But if you look at actually howmany he pardoned, he really
(24:27):
didn't pardon that much.
If you look at actually howmany he pardoned, he really
didn't pardon that much.
Victor (24:31):
So there, when they kind of spit these numbers out, I
had to kind of get in there alittle bit.
I mean, it says on WikipediaJoe Biden pardoned 8,064 people,
but includes 6,500 possiblypardoned for marijuana
possession.
Rob (24:46):
Yeah.
Victor (24:47):
So there you go.
Pardoned for marijuanapossession yeah, yeah, so there
you go.
So these numbers here saysjimmy carter pardoned 566 people
, but that excludes 200 000people.
Pardoned for vietnam draftevasion yes, and that's a lot.
And they all have bone spurts.
Cesar (25:02):
The second moat they'll have bone spururs, oh yeah.
Victor (25:09):
Oh baby.
The second most was AndrewJohnson.
Oh really, he pardonedthousands of ex-Confederates.
Yeah, I'm glad you're bringingthis up, because Because you're
angry about that.
It's been a thorn in his sidesince 1865.
Cesar (25:27):
Yeah, there's so many tiki torches in his basement.
He's ready.
Victor (25:31):
And I was actually struggling with that, so that's
a great thing.
Rob (25:34):
So, yeah, there's like thousands upon thousands of
people who have been pardonedand computed, but it goes to
show you that all thesepresidents have used this power
and clearly, right now, it seemslike they're using it a lot
more.
Cesar (25:44):
Well, you have to think about it right.
Like you start pushing theboundaries and we're at a level
in our political system where,like, there is no such thing as
boundaries anymore.
We get all upset and stuff andthen the next day something else
happens and we kind of forgetthat that line in the sand is
just kind of gets blurred andblurred, and blurred.
We're just heading on thispotentially scary path for good
(26:05):
or bad who knows.
Victor (26:06):
But I mean now is uh, we're in a very politically
charged time, like people arelike oh, don't bring up politics
, don't connect politics.
And then people connectpolitics can't even watch a
disney movie.
When someone goes yeah, they'repushing that agenda I mean, did
you see moana too?
yeah, that's a talking fuckingchicken.
(26:27):
Like I don't know what are youtalking about.
I remember I asked someone ifthey had watched the new
Spider-Man and they're like,yeah, it's pushing some fucking
agenda.
I was just like, dude, it'sSpider-Man.
Like he fucking flies aroundNew York City with a web Like
who gives a shit.
Rob (26:46):
He doesn't fly, he swings.
Victor (26:49):
So new york city with a web like who gives a shit?
He doesn't fly, he swings.
So right there he's the fuckingmenace.
That's all I know.
He's a criminal.
Rob (26:54):
That's who he is a vigilante, a public menace
people are too plugged in andthey're not.
Victor (27:00):
Their brains can't handle it.
Cesar (27:01):
The problem is they're plugged in, right and then the
algorithm is just feeding theminformation that they don't
understand.
Yeah, myself included, I'm noteven trying to be like I'm
better than everyone else, likewell, I am.
Chris (27:09):
Algorithm is just feeding them information that they
don't understand.
Cesar (27:11):
Yeah, myself included.
I'm not even trying to be likeI'm better than everyone else
Like.
Victor (27:13):
well, I am.
Cesar (27:13):
No, we are.
Listen to us, like, comment andsubscribe.
Rob (27:20):
Trust us.
Victor brought up the you knowthe infamous Richard Nixon
Watergate scandal whereWatergate scandal political
scandal 1970s.
It involved like a break in theDemocratic National Committee
headquarters, the Watergatecomplex and Gerald Ford later
issued a pardon, full pardon, toRichard Nixon and he said it
was to heal the nation.
On a lighter note, there aresome pardons that are probably
(27:42):
not politically charged.
You guys know we have atradition of pardoning a
Thanksgiving turkey.
Cesar (27:48):
Yeah, I never understood that.
Victor (27:51):
Listen, I've seen the ceremony right.
They go in there, they pardonthe turkey.
They say, hey, you're free togo.
First of all, did the turkeycommit any crimes?
Yeah, Like.
Chris (28:00):
I don't think so.
Rob (28:00):
That's a preemptive pardon.
Victor (28:01):
What does he need a pardon for?
Oh, so now we have turkeys outthere that can?
Cesar (28:06):
commit crimes and no one can stop them.
Fucking Obama.
Victor (28:10):
Thanks yeah, Thanks Obama, Thanks Obama.
Rob (28:13):
When I was reading about it they said it dates back to like
the 1940s.
National Turkey Federationbegan presenting the president
with a live turkey forThanksgiving and there's kind of
like the exact origins fromwhen I was trying to figure it
out of the pardon are debated,but they say JFK is often
credited with sparing a turkeyin 1963 and then kind of said,
(28:34):
hey, let's keep this traditiongoing.
Victor (28:36):
That's why the CIA got him yeah.
Rob (28:41):
And since then these pardoned turkeys typically
retire to farms or shanksanctuaries where they can live
out their days.
Victor (28:48):
I feel like you're just trying to say like they went
upstate they went up, they wentto the farm upstate.
They went to poughkeepsie youknow you lost your dog.
Rob (28:56):
That's where that turkey went.
Victor (28:57):
Now they're upstate right, they're meeting the other
turkeys that were pardoned andthey're planning crimes and shit
.
Cesar (29:03):
But guess what?
They're all pardoned.
Victor (29:05):
So so Exactly, that's the fucking issue.
Rob (29:08):
We're in trouble, so let's go over a list of some people
that you may not have heardabout that were pardoned.
You guys know anybody that'skind of weird that might have
gotten pardoned without lookingit up on the internet and then
feeding it back to me.
Victor (29:21):
Patty Hearst Nixon.
Rob (29:24):
So Jim Morrison, I'm Jim Morrison Nixon.
So Jim Morrison.
Jim Morrison, lead singer ofthe Doors, had been convicted of
indecent exposure and profanityduring a concert in Miami and
was pardoned by Jimmy Carter,who issued it to him
posthumously over eight yearsafter his death in 1971.
So Jim Morrison, oh great.
Victor (29:46):
So he really benefited yeah, he really benefited his
death in 1971.
Rob (29:48):
So Jim Morrison oh great, so he really benefited.
Yeah, he really benefited, butit's weird because he wasn't
alive to benefit from the pardonand the act was more symbolic
than anything.
Victor said that after theCivil War, andrew Johnson issued
a blanket pardon to Confederateleaders, including Jefferson
Davies, and this move was partof an effort to unify the nation
.
So again you can see that mercy, mercy, unification that's
(30:09):
basically the whole point ofthis.
And then you guys probably havenoticed or heard recently that
President Trump granted a fulland unconditional pardon to Ross
Ulbricht, the founder of SilkRoad, who had an underground
online marketplace forfacilitating the sale of illegal
drugs and illicit goods.
He was sentenced to two lifesentences plus 40 years and
(30:33):
received a full andunconditional pardon recently.
Cesar (30:36):
Damn.
Rob (30:36):
Do you know why?
To hit him up on the DM, Goddamn.
Or he's probably going to buildsomething in the background.
And here's another one.
Cesar George Steinbrenner, thecontroversial owner of the New
York Yankees, was convicted formaking illegal campaign
contributions to Richard Nixonduring his reelection campaign.
He was fined $15,000 andsentenced to two years of
(30:59):
probation.
However, Gerald Ford grantedSteinbrenner a full pardon for
his conviction.
So do you think that he filledout the application or he just
hit him up and got pardoned?
Cesar (31:11):
Probably sent one of his agents.
It's like hey, listen, I needyou to get that baseball player
for me and also do this on theside.
That's the boss.
Go, get me a couple of calzonesright now.
Prado, move it out.
Rob (31:20):
This is it.
I mean, pardons are adouble-edged sword.
On one hand, they have the toolfor justice and mercy, and on
the other hand, is it cronyism.
Is there something behind it?
Some proposed transparencymeasures or even limits on the
types of crimes that can bepardoned, but that's kind of
what we're dealing with.
So any key takeaways, chris?
Chris (31:40):
Man, it sounds dangerous, like if you use it wrongly, you
know.
But if you do use it right orcorrectly, it pardons.
It could be good, it could be agood thing, but um, yeah, it's,
I don't.
It is wild, though.
Cesar (31:56):
I didn't realize you can just pardon anybody, or anything
caesar yeah, man, like anythingelse in politics, this can be
used as a tool for good or goodor evil, whatever it is, uh,
depending on who sits in thepresident's chair.
I have heard of, you know,let's say, inmates or people on
the throw or stuff like that.
They were innocent, but becauseof the you know, like you
(32:17):
mentioned red tape, they werestill on death row and then the
president has a part of them.
So in that essence, it is good.
But then you have all theselittle nefarious parties that,
like I mentioned earlier, blurthe line and kind of allow for
the next president.
So just keep pushing it andpushing it, and pushing it.
It is a slippery slope.
Victor (32:37):
Victor.
It's a tricky situation becauseI mean you can see where it can
be of extreme benefit.
It's also a power that can beeasily abused.
It's also a power that can beeasily abused, and I just want
to take this rest of my timehere to try to urge us to stop
pardoning these turkeys that arerunning a fucking muck and
(33:00):
destroying this country, thefabric of the United States of
America, and I will not standfor it.
Cesar (33:08):
I thought you were going to go a little different
direction.
Rob (33:11):
No, that's exactly where we needed him to go.
Cesar (33:13):
I thought you were going to shit on Chris for some reason
.
Victor (33:15):
Chris isn't going to get a pardon for any of his
episodes, especially ketchup onpizza.
You should be jailed for that.
Rob (33:23):
So thank you for tuning in.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram, twitter and YouTube
at I'm Not Dumb, but where wepost extra fun content you may
not find on the podcast, andbefore you go, hit that
subscribe button because you'llfeel better.
Trust me, until next time, staycurious Later.
So what do you think of Thanksgiving, turkey and?
Victor (00:01):
Richard Nixon have in common they both broke into the
Watergate complex to stealDemocratic National Committee
documents.
Cesar (00:11):
That was very specific, yeah, very precise Very precise
yeah.
I can't follow that.
Victor (00:19):
You guys don't know Watergate.
Rob (00:22):
Well, they both got pardoned.
So today we're diving deep intothe world of presidential
pardons.
What are they, how do they workand why are they such a
lightning rod for controversy,from historical precedent to
constitutional authority?
We'll explore the storiesbehind these final acts of
clemency.
I'm not dumb, but what's apresidential pardon?
Cesar (00:42):
Welcome to the I'm not dumb, but podcast, where we
won't claim to have the answersto life's deepest questions but
we'll give you an excitingjourney into the realms of
knowledge you never knew you'deither.
Might be mainstream, but notcommon knowledge.
From artificial intelligence toconspiracy theories, no topic
is too taboo for us to explore.
Let's get curious together.
Rob (01:02):
I'm Rob, your host for today, joined by the man who's
currently working on his fourthmaster's at the University of
Ancient Aliens, cesar Almostdone, the most stand-up guy I
know Victor how y'all doing?
And, of course, chris Yo.
On January 20th 2025, in thewaning hours of their
(01:22):
presidencies, two Americanleaders wielded one of the most
extraordinary powers granted tothe office the power of the
pardon.
Cesar (01:31):
It's magnificent.
Rob (01:33):
Incoming President, donald J Trump, made headlines with an
unprecedented move, granting afull and unconditional pardon to
1,500 individuals convicted ofcrimes connected to the January
6, 2021 Capitol insurrection.
Additionally, he commuted thesentences of 14 others involved
in the events of that day, adecision bound to spark fierce
(01:55):
debate about justice,accountability and political
messaging.
You guys hear about this, yes,but did you also hear that
meanwhile, 20 minutes before hewas about to leave office,
president Joe Biden issued fivefamily pardons and a move that
stunned political landscape,pardoning his brother James,
(02:15):
sister Valerie, three otherclose family members and even
including the infamous COVIDresponse chief, anthony.
Victor (02:23):
Fauci, and there was a general also.
Yes, yes, I did read about thegeneral.
Ironically, it's not even like,wasn't even under Biden's
administration.
It was Trump's administration.
The general under him.
Chris (02:37):
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, Biden gave it out like itwas like a fucking Halloween.
You know, candies, like you getone, you get one, you get one,
you get one.
Cesar (02:46):
But the crazy thing about it is like there was a bigger
uproar for that than there was aTrump one.
Rob (02:52):
Yes, Well, we'll get into why there was a little bit of a
uproar about that and maybeit'll make a little more sense.
So Biden claimed the action wasa shield against political
retribution rather than anyadmission of wrongdoing.
These pardons, announced justminutes before he left the
Capitol, left Americanswondering about the limits and
the ethics of this remarkablepresidential power.
(03:12):
So why are we talking aboutpresidential pardons today?
Because this single act ofabsolute, unchecked power
granted by the Constitution hasthe potential to rewrite justice
.
It can redefine legacies and itcan reshape public trust.
Cesar (03:27):
Such power, it's raw power.
Rob (03:29):
But to understand why this matters so much, we need to
start with the basics.
So what exactly is apresidential pardon?
Chris (03:37):
Is it when the government they forgive everything, pretty
much your crimes or whatnotjust goes away?
Victor (03:44):
I think it depends on what the pardon is for exactly,
but basically it's a get out ofjail free card.
Like how do you get it?
Do you have to apply for it?
Do you know the president?
Cesar (03:53):
Yeah.
Rob (03:54):
You have connections.
I mean if you're cool with thepresident, you get it.
Victor (03:56):
I think also governors can give pardons though as well,
but only like for state crimes.
Rob (04:01):
Let's clear it up.
So pardon is an executive actthat forgives someone for a
federal crime, essentiallywiping away their punishment.
So under Article 2, section 2of the United States, my
favorite article.
The Constitution gives thepresident the authority to grant
reprieves and pardons foroffenses against the United
States, except in cases ofimpeachment.
(04:23):
The Supreme Court interpretedthis power as plenary, or in
other words unrestricted andabsolute, meaning it's extremely
broad and largely free fromcongressional interference.
So there was like a landmarkcase, called like Expart Garland
in 1866, and another one inUnited States First Klein in
(04:44):
1871.
And this pretty much made itclear Congress cannot limit the
ability to pardon.
This is up to the president, athis disposal.
But this authority didn'tappear out of thin air.
Its roots trace back to Englishhistory, where it's known as
the prerogative of mercy.
So it first emerged during the17th century reign of King Ina
(05:08):
of Wessex.
While the power faced abusesover time, it persisted through
the American colonial period andbecame part of our constitution
thanks to Alexander Hamilton.
So at the constitutionalconvention Hamilton argued for a
strong, expansive pardon powerto reside solely for the
president, separate of thejudicial system.
Cesar (05:31):
I should really see that musical.
Have you not seen it?
I haven't seen it, it's on.
Rob (05:35):
Disney+.
I haven't seen it either.
I want to see it live.
Do your, it's very expensive, Iknow.
Cesar (05:40):
Are you talking about Alexander Hamilton?
Victor (05:42):
What was his deal?
Why was he so pushy on it?
What was he trying to hide?
I?
Rob (05:46):
don't know, I didn't get into that, he was just all about
it though.
Victor (05:50):
It seems kind of weird, though.
He just wakes up.
He's like man.
The president should be able topardon any crime.
Pumpy breaks key.
Chris (06:00):
That man's a national treasure.
Rob (06:01):
I think it comes down to what pardons give, and we're
going to talk about that, but Ithink they're actually needed in
certain cases.
So let's break down pardons andcommutations, okay.
So first we have a full pardonwhich completely erases a
conviction.
That's the one Chris wastalking about Fully on
everything's gone.
Then you have a commutation,and so this reduces the
(06:22):
sentences but doesn't clearanyone of a conviction.
Then you have a reprieve whichcan delay punishment, and then
amnesty, which is basically ablanket pardon for a bunch of
people.
So that's kind of what trumpdid 1500 people, blanket pardon,
amnesty for a while.
Victor (06:41):
yeah, and amnesty, like their earlier work was a lot
better than their newer stuff.
If that's a joke, I don't getit Like it's a band.
Rob (06:49):
I got it.
Is that like an English band?
Victor (06:51):
Yeah.
Rob (06:53):
Killed?
No, nobody.
But here's the kicker with thispower, it has a few limitations
.
A crime must have beencommitted to issue a pardon,
which is weird, because JoeBiden just issued a preemptive
pardon when no crimes werecommitted and there was no idea
of wrongdoing.
So that's why his pardon isgetting a lot of traction,
(07:14):
because he's using it in a waythat I think had not been used
before.
Victor (07:19):
I don't think that's true with the preemptive pardon,
that Biden was the first to doit.
Oh, who did it then?
Wouldn't Nixon have been thefirst to do it?
Because Nixon was never chargedof any crimes.
Rob (07:30):
But Nixon, wasn't he indicted?
No, and I think Ford is the onethat.
Victor (07:36):
That's why he resigned, because he thought it was coming
.
Rob (07:39):
Yeah, but I don't think Nixon pardoned himself.
Victor (07:41):
No, it was the next president.
Rob (07:44):
Yeah, preemptive pardons is a pretty big one, because
usually you need to be committedto a crime or, you know, be
caught up in something.
Chris (07:51):
So basically, you're getting a free jail card before
the crime.
Rob (07:55):
Before the crime.
So in Biden's case it was likethere was a threat of someone
going after his family, so hejust kind of got the jump on it.
Cesar (08:06):
So there was no trial.
Rob (08:07):
No, nothing.
His brother and his sister andhis grandma.
Victor (08:12):
No, it was to prevent political persecution towards
his family and friends andwhatever.
We're not seeing any of thatnow, though.
Chris (08:21):
And as far as I'm concerned, the Biden family is a
criminal enterprise.
Rob (08:26):
It really is crime must be committed and it only applies to
federal offenses, not statecrimes, which is something
victor said and the presidentcan't use the power to pardon or
nullify impeachment.
So it's kind of like the threekey limitations.
Right beyond those boundaries,the president has significant
freedom to decide how and whento use this power.
Victor (08:45):
When, exactly when, I say it.
Rob (08:48):
So throughout American history, presidents have used
the power of pardon in ways thathave shaped the nation.
So the very first part in whichone do you think it was?
Victor (08:57):
It was Hamilton.
Rob (08:59):
He was never president.
Because, he was from theCaribbean.
Victor (09:03):
Was he?
I don't fucking't fucking.
Rob (09:05):
I didn't watch the play you got to get back into that man
disney.
Victor (09:10):
Plus I'll give you my uh password I bet you it was grant
roosevelt jackson.
Oh good, one good answer.
Rob (09:17):
Yeah, I like that jackson doesn't get enough love.
Yeah, you're all wrong.
It was george Washington in1794.
Of course, yeah.
Chris (09:25):
I mean it's an easy one.
Rob (09:26):
I said the first presidential pardon, Like just
go with the first president.
You got this awesome power andyou're not going to use it.
Chris (09:32):
Are you serious?
I just told you that.
Rob (09:35):
So he pardoned the participants of the Whiskey
Rebellion.
So the rebellion was an armeduprising in 1794 by farmers and
distillers in westernPennsylvania and it stemmed from
anger over a federal excise taxon distilled spirits.
They pretty much were up inarms and in order to cool
everything down they kind ofstopped and then he just
(09:55):
pardoned everyone so thateveryone kind of got over it and
it kind of helped the nation.
That's this whole idea, right?
So the pardon basically grantedmercy amongst these people, but
also cool tensions in, like thepolitical space.
So I think that's really thekey here, why Hamilton wanted it
, because it has a useful tool.
We're gonna be cool.
(10:16):
Governors also have the power topardon for state crimes, but
their rules are a littledifferent.
So according to the ACLU, thereare 15 states where governors
are basically the kings andqueens of clemency.
They have full, sole authorityto pardon and grant clemency
whenever they see fit, noquestions asked.
So some states include, likeAlabama, arkansas, california,
(10:38):
colorado but in some of theother states it's a little
different.
The governor still has thepower to grant clemency, but
it's only a recommendation.
It has to go through a clemencyboard or some sort of advisory
group and this system, basically, is built in to add, like some
layers of accountability.
Cesar (10:55):
Is the governor on the board or?
Rob (10:57):
no, no, it's a totally different board.
And then there's other stateslike Georgia, nebraska, nevada,
utah, where the governors havebasically no power and it's 100%
up to the board, and that's theway it's kind of broken down in
our system.
So, the process of pardoning,how do you guys think you do it?
Victor (11:17):
Oh, you got to fill out the proper forms.
That's the P1A, the P1D.
You need them in duplicate andyou need them in notarized Black
ink only Black ink, only inprint, and it needs to be signed
and dated With Trump in office.
Cesar (11:33):
I would just send him a DM.
Yo, I need a pardon, bro.
Victor (11:38):
You got a truth social him.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So I'll send him a message ontruth social.
Cesar (11:45):
I'll tell him that I'm thinking about buying Dogecoin
Dogecoin.
Chris (11:52):
Doge, is that different?
Victor (11:53):
than Fordcoin, possibly Chevycoin.
Rob (11:59):
I'm thinking about getting a Dodge.
What do?
Chris (12:00):
you think?
Victor (12:01):
I want to look into those Dodgecoins.
Chris (12:08):
Dogecoin is my favorite cryptocurrency because it has
the best humor and has dogs.
Rob (12:10):
The president may grant pardons on their own accord or
in response to requests madethrough the us department of
justice's office of the pardonattorney.
You could either dm trump, andhe can just do whatever he wants
you.
You got to send Kim K.
Cesar (12:23):
Kim K can get you right in, so if you would go with her,
you got to buy a house with theSkims, or is it Skims or Skins?
Victor (12:30):
Who knows who gives a shit.
It's not trying to hide yourfat ass.
Maybe if you had a businessthat you were passionate about,
then you would know what ittakes to run a business.
But you don't.
Rob (12:43):
Or you have to go through the office of the pardon
attorney, and in which caseyou're exactly right.
You have to fill out a form anddo all these things.
So, in order to do that, thepardon attorney investigates and
reviews all applications ofclemency, but serves only as an
advisory role, and the way itworks is yeah, you basically
petition the office of thepardoned attorney for a federal
(13:05):
crime that you may havecommitted.
You include details about theconviction, your behavior
afterwards, reasons for beingpardoned, some letters of
support from family members orfriends.
They do a thorough backgroundinvestigation, as we know, and
then, after that, they reviewyour application and submit it
to the president.
(13:26):
Um, but it's ultimately thepresident's decision.
So, oh, okay, and that's that'show that process goes so what?
Chris (13:34):
what do you think about um luigi?
Do you think he's gonna getpardoned?
Victor (13:38):
no, no that was outright murder, I know.
But yeah, we, yeah, we live inan oligarchy.
Now Like this is wherecompanies are ruling us.
Open for business player Openfor business.
Cesar (13:55):
Do you think they did?
Rob (13:56):
1,500 single applications or just one copy and paste?
No, I think they didn't evenfill out applications.
Well, they might have, theymight have.
They probably just did one.
Yeah, I think it was justoverall overarching In that
situation they might have, theymight have.
They're probably just doing one.
And yeah, I think it was justoverall overarching and in that
situation they wouldn't reallyneed it.
The president can just go aheadand do it.
There was actually some peoplethat he pardoned that actually
turned their pardon down.
Yes, I was going to ask youabout that?
Victor (14:16):
Yeah, I have heard about that.
Rob (14:17):
Yeah, but if you looked at their term, some of them didn't
really do a lot of time.
It was like I think one ladywas like 60 days, another guy
wasn't that long, so they werejust like no time served.
I'm kind of past it.
Chris (14:35):
If you get pardoned.
Is there some kind of catch?
Is there some kind of rules orsomething?
Rob (14:37):
that comes with it that you have to follow afterward.
So a full pardon, everything iswiped clean.
There's the other one whereyour conviction still stands
right.
Chris (14:46):
Your sentence, yeah but there's no such thing.
It's like you get full, full-onpardon, but if you get caught
again there, you're like, youknow, like your punishment.
Victor (14:56):
There there could be a time frame, like for for biden's
pardon.
There was a time frame.
So he basically said in thepast, whatever many years?
They committed crimes, they areabsolved of those sins.
I don't know.
Let's say you commit fraud orsomething like that, or tax
evasion.
I don't know.
Something small, I don't wantto get too serious.
Let's say you steal a loaf ofbread and you get pardoned, and
(15:17):
then 10 years later you go andsteal the loaf of bread.
That is a different crime.
Cesar (15:22):
Yes.
Chris (15:23):
Right.
Rob (15:23):
Yes.
Victor (15:25):
That is a different crime.
Yes, right, yes, it is not thesame crime.
So why do we pardon?
Because we're forgiving Powermove.
Cesar (15:29):
Yeah, if I'm the president, I'm pardoning
everybody, all my homies, I'mswinging that power it's given
to me, I'm going to take it.
You get one, you get one, and alot of the times it's going to
come down to that.
Rob (15:39):
Pardons are about mercy.
They're a way to correctinjustices and offer second
chances to reformed individuals.
Also, they're a way to healnational wounds during times of
division.
So it is a political move.
Yeah, you can get your friendsout.
You can get other people out ofjail.
If you see someone who has beenrehabilitated and yes, they're
(16:00):
doing better, but the system andthey're caught in this
bureaucratic cycle the presidentcan go in there, cut all the
red tape and put mercy andjustice upon this person, which
is a great power to have.
But they also help in times ofdivision.
Let's look at a story here withBrigham Young's pardon.
You guys ever heard about thisstory?
Cesar (16:17):
Isn't that a school, Utah right.
Rob (16:20):
Mormons.
BYU in the hall, white so in the1850s, brigham Young, a
charismatic leader of the Mormonchurch, is essentially running
Utah as his own theocratickingdom.
So a theocracy is a system ofgovernment in which priests rule
in the name of God.
The federal government led byPresident James Buchanan at the
(16:40):
time is deeply suspicious ofYoung and the Mormon settlers.
Why?
Well, because the Mormons hadtheir own laws, their own
militia and their owncontroversial practices like
polygamy and a bunch of otherthings.
So tensions came to a head withthe Utah War of 1857 to 1858.
Buchanan declared that Youngand his followers were in an
(17:02):
open rebellion against theUnited States of America and he
sent thousands of troops to Utahto suppress what he saw as a
Mormon uprising.
The full-on federal army of theUnited States of America goes
marching down to Utah tobasically squash this kingdom
that's trying to develop itself.
But the war never escalatedinto a full-scale violence, why
(17:26):
Buchanan offered a blanketpardon to Young and the entire
Mormon community.
This was basically a strategicmove to de-escalate the
situation and reassert federalcontrol.
So they surrounded the wholeplace and basically gave them an
out.
Did they disband their militia?
No, they still have it.
No, I think they did, or theytook on some of them.
(17:48):
So Brigham Young's pardon pavedthe way for Utah to eventually
become a state, but it also lefta legacy of mistrust between
the Mormons and the USgovernment.
So this was like a prettyhighly controversial pardon at
the time.
Victor (18:03):
Did you see the Book of Mormon?
I did.
Rob (18:05):
And it's really good Also on Disney+.
Chris (18:09):
I saw that one live.
Victor (18:10):
Two by two, we're marching door to door Also.
Cesar (18:13):
he sounds weak.
Rob (18:14):
Who Brigham.
Cesar (18:15):
No Ken.
Rob (18:16):
Actually they said that that was one of the big things
about his term.
So pardons can be highlycontroversial, and some critics
think that they're a tool forpolitical favoritism, rewarding
allies or even donors.
So this line between justiceand abuse of power gets very
blurry.
So let's look at another onehere.
So you guys ever heard of PattyHearst?
Victor (18:37):
Yeah, she's like a writer, right.
Rob (18:39):
Her grandfather was William Randolph Hearst.
Victor (18:42):
Oh, she's an actress.
Rob (18:43):
So Patty Hearst, the granddaughter of publishing
magnate William Randolph Hearst,was kidnapped in 1974 by the
Symbionese Liberation Army, aleftist militant group is what
the government categorizes themas.
This is the story that we know.
So while in captivity, she wasreportedly brainwashed and later
(19:06):
adopted their ideology.
Taking the name Tanya, she wasfamously photographed
participating in an armedrobbery of a bank in San
Francisco.
Her involvement led to herarrest in 1975, where she was
charged and convicted of bankrobbery.
Despite claiming she had beencoerced, her case sparked public
debate about whether she wasactually a victim or a willing
(19:30):
participant.
So, after serving 22 months ofa seven-year sentence, her
sentence was commuted byPresident Jimmy Carter in 1979.
And later, in 2001, shereceived a full pardon from
President Bill Clinton,officially clearing her criminal
record.
Chris (19:47):
She's like a great example of a really rich person.
Rob (19:52):
Patty Hearst's pardon was very controversial because there
was a lot of questions aboutprivilege.
She came from a very wealthyfamily.
Her grandfather was a verywell-known person.
You guys probably know theHearst Castle, right?
No idea what that is?
Yeah, I don't know what thefuck you're talking about know
the Hearst Castle, right?
Victor (20:05):
No idea what that is.
Yeah, I don't know what thefuck you're talking about Hearst
Castle.
No.
Rob (20:08):
Out in California, nope, nope.
Victor (20:10):
Is it on fire?
Is it haunted?
Rob (20:13):
This was one of those debates that was maybe an
example of cronyism.
This guy was very wealthy andhe did contribute a lot to
certain sides.
Victor (20:26):
But again I feel like if you don't have an end into the
white house, you're fucked likeyou're not gonna get a pardon.
Cesar (20:31):
But this is what that privilege uh gets you or a
groundswell of support, popularsupport.
One of those two things.
Chris (20:39):
But if you're a nobody, no one fucking was there a time
where the president gave outpardon and then, because the
public, he took it back.
Or is there can did you can?
Is that possible or the no?
Victor (20:51):
take back sees rule.
Chris (20:51):
Yeah, um in article five two section four oh, I might
have missed that five secondrule and no take back, oh okay,
that's word for word.
When alexander hamilton wroteno, take taxis.
Rob (21:06):
That would cause chaos in this country.
No vaccines mean something youhave to have an in that's or
there has to be a huge followingbehind you.
This is completely politicallymotivated or it's complete
cronyism, but that's the power.
You're the president.
You know you won monopoly andyou're like all right, I'm gonna
get my friend out of jail, I'mgonna going to buy a couple of
places on Baltic.
(21:26):
I'm going to do whatever I want.
I want this game.
Cesar (21:28):
Because that might be off , but I have heard that after
some Netflix documentaries somepeople like on Death Row or To
the World In Jail.
They were pardoned Because newinformation games like Netflix
is big, has a big audience andyou know it got all the way to
the White House or to theindividual in charge of yeah,
(21:49):
but again.
Victor (21:49):
but how many people are falsely incarcerated and don't
have a Netflix special?
That's a good point.
So it's like those.
They're just lucky to be honest.
But it's a good look, it's agood.
Rob (22:00):
Look, let's say I'm the president.
It's a PR thing.
It's a huge.
I agree with that.
It's a huge PR thing Because ifI see all these people on
Netflix chanting for this guy heprobably submitted an
application 20 years ago itlooks probably good because they
vetted everything on him andI'm like it's an election year.
Yeah, maybe I'll drum up a fewvotes this way and you go ahead
(22:21):
and pardon one guy and you mightget a lot of support on the
other end.
Cesar (22:24):
It's not a bad move, my fellow Americans, I'm going to
pardon this guy but don't lookat the price of eggs, because
they're $30.
Rob (22:34):
The stomach is speaking.
It always does.
Back to Trump and present day.
While President Trump'spardoning of 1,500 January 6th
rioters is up there, who do youthink holds the record for the
most presidential pardons in oneday?
Chris (22:44):
I was going to say Biden.
Victor (22:46):
Oh, did you do the reading?
Rob (22:47):
yeah, did you no, I didn't read, it, just did the reading
he's a nerd reading bro he readahead.
Cesar (22:52):
I want to say bush, but I think it might be our boy obama
has to be biden.
Chris (22:57):
Do you remember that?
I think it was like a one dayhe literally gave it out to like
fucking whole america.
I didn't get one, chris Ididn't get it.
Victor (23:02):
Yeah, the fuck does that mean?
Cesar (23:03):
because I'm thinking about doing a crime'm thinking
about doing a crime.
Rob (23:07):
So, Chris, yeah, you're right Joe Biden, on January 17th
, near the last days of hispresidency, commuted the
sentences of nearly 2,500 peopleconvicted of nonviolent drug
offenses, cementing his legacyas the president who has issued
the most individual pardons andcommutations in US history in
one day.
Come on man.
(23:27):
This is an article by NBC.
Biden said in a statement thatthis would help equalize
sentencing disparities.
Biden pardoned the most peoplein one day, but who do you think
pardoned the most people intheir presidency?
Yeah, overall Biden.
I was going to say Biden too.
Chris (23:42):
Yeah, yes, biden, that was also Biden.
I was going to say Biden too,yeah.
Rob (23:45):
Yes, biden, that was also Biden, yeah, so in his four
years he pardoned over 4,200people.
Just to give you some measure,caesar, who did you say you
thought pardoned the most peoplein one day?
Cesar (24:01):
Bush, sagawin.
Rob (24:03):
He pardoned only 200 people , ooh yeah.
And his father pardoned 77.
Ooh.
But you got to remember thiswhen they run these numbers,
because I was looking at howthey break it down.
They break it up into pardonsand commutations.
So Biden commuted the sentencesof 2,500 people, so that
doesn't count.
But if you look at actually howmany he pardoned, he really
(24:27):
didn't pardon that much.
If you look at actually howmany he pardoned, he really
didn't pardon that much.
Victor (24:31):
So there, when they kind of spit these numbers out, I
had to kind of get in there alittle bit.
I mean, it says on WikipediaJoe Biden pardoned 8,064 people,
but includes 6,500 possiblypardoned for marijuana
possession.
Rob (24:46):
Yeah.
Victor (24:47):
So there you go.
Pardoned for marijuanapossession yeah, yeah, so there
you go.
So these numbers here saysjimmy carter pardoned 566 people
, but that excludes 200 000people.
Pardoned for vietnam draftevasion yes, and that's a lot.
And they all have bone spurts.
Cesar (25:02):
The second moat they'll have bone spururs, oh yeah.
Victor (25:09):
Oh baby.
The second most was AndrewJohnson.
Oh really, he pardonedthousands of ex-Confederates.
Yeah, I'm glad you're bringingthis up, because Because you're
angry about that.
It's been a thorn in his sidesince 1865.
Cesar (25:27):
Yeah, there's so many tiki torches in his basement.
He's ready.
Victor (25:31):
And I was actually struggling with that, so that's
a great thing.
Rob (25:34):
So, yeah, there's like thousands upon thousands of
people who have been pardonedand computed, but it goes to
show you that all thesepresidents have used this power
and clearly, right now, it seemslike they're using it a lot
more.
Cesar (25:44):
Well, you have to think about it right.
Like you start pushing theboundaries and we're at a level
in our political system where,like, there is no such thing as
boundaries anymore.
We get all upset and stuff andthen the next day something else
happens and we kind of forgetthat that line in the sand is
just kind of gets blurred andblurred, and blurred.
We're just heading on thispotentially scary path for good
(26:05):
or bad who knows.
Victor (26:06):
But I mean now is uh, we're in a very politically
charged time, like people arelike oh, don't bring up politics
, don't connect politics.
And then people connectpolitics can't even watch a
disney movie.
When someone goes yeah, they'repushing that agenda I mean, did
you see moana too?
yeah, that's a talking fuckingchicken.
(26:27):
Like I don't know what are youtalking about.
I remember I asked someone ifthey had watched the new
Spider-Man and they're like,yeah, it's pushing some fucking
agenda.
I was just like, dude, it'sSpider-Man.
Like he fucking flies aroundNew York City with a web Like
who gives a shit.
Rob (26:46):
He doesn't fly, he swings.
Victor (26:49):
So new york city with a web like who gives a shit?
He doesn't fly, he swings.
So right there he's the fuckingmenace.
That's all I know.
He's a criminal.
Rob (26:54):
That's who he is a vigilante, a public menace
people are too plugged in andthey're not.
Victor (27:00):
Their brains can't handle it.
Cesar (27:01):
The problem is they're plugged in, right and then the
algorithm is just feeding theminformation that they don't
understand.
Yeah, myself included, I'm noteven trying to be like I'm
better than everyone else, likewell, I am.
Chris (27:09):
Algorithm is just feeding them information that they
don't understand.
Cesar (27:11):
Yeah, myself included.
I'm not even trying to be likeI'm better than everyone else
Like.
Victor (27:13):
well, I am.
Cesar (27:13):
No, we are.
Listen to us, like, comment andsubscribe.
Rob (27:20):
Trust us.
Victor brought up the you knowthe infamous Richard Nixon
Watergate scandal whereWatergate scandal political
scandal 1970s.
It involved like a break in theDemocratic National Committee
headquarters, the Watergatecomplex and Gerald Ford later
issued a pardon, full pardon, toRichard Nixon and he said it
was to heal the nation.
On a lighter note, there aresome pardons that are probably
(27:42):
not politically charged.
You guys know we have atradition of pardoning a
Thanksgiving turkey.
Cesar (27:48):
Yeah, I never understood that.
Victor (27:51):
Listen, I've seen the ceremony right.
They go in there, they pardonthe turkey.
They say, hey, you're free togo.
First of all, did the turkeycommit any crimes?
Yeah, Like.
Chris (28:00):
I don't think so.
Rob (28:00):
That's a preemptive pardon.
Victor (28:01):
What does he need a pardon for?
Oh, so now we have turkeys outthere that can?
Cesar (28:06):
commit crimes and no one can stop them.
Fucking Obama.
Victor (28:10):
Thanks yeah, Thanks Obama, Thanks Obama.
Rob (28:13):
When I was reading about it they said it dates back to like
the 1940s.
National Turkey Federationbegan presenting the president
with a live turkey forThanksgiving and there's kind of
like the exact origins fromwhen I was trying to figure it
out of the pardon are debated,but they say JFK is often
credited with sparing a turkeyin 1963 and then kind of said,
(28:34):
hey, let's keep this traditiongoing.
Victor (28:36):
That's why the CIA got him yeah.
Rob (28:41):
And since then these pardoned turkeys typically
retire to farms or shanksanctuaries where they can live
out their days.
Victor (28:48):
I feel like you're just trying to say like they went
upstate they went up, they wentto the farm upstate.
They went to poughkeepsie youknow you lost your dog.
Rob (28:56):
That's where that turkey went.
Victor (28:57):
Now they're upstate right, they're meeting the other
turkeys that were pardoned andthey're planning crimes and shit
.
Cesar (29:03):
But guess what?
They're all pardoned.
Victor (29:05):
So so Exactly, that's the fucking issue.
Rob (29:08):
We're in trouble, so let's go over a list of some people
that you may not have heardabout that were pardoned.
You guys know anybody that'skind of weird that might have
gotten pardoned without lookingit up on the internet and then
feeding it back to me.
Victor (29:21):
Patty Hearst Nixon.
Rob (29:24):
So Jim Morrison, I'm Jim Morrison Nixon.
So Jim Morrison.
Jim Morrison, lead singer ofthe Doors, had been convicted of
indecent exposure and profanityduring a concert in Miami and
was pardoned by Jimmy Carter,who issued it to him
posthumously over eight yearsafter his death in 1971.
So Jim Morrison, oh great.
Victor (29:46):
So he really benefited yeah, he really benefited his
death in 1971.
Rob (29:48):
So Jim Morrison oh great, so he really benefited.
Yeah, he really benefited, butit's weird because he wasn't
alive to benefit from the pardonand the act was more symbolic
than anything.
Victor said that after theCivil War, andrew Johnson issued
a blanket pardon to Confederateleaders, including Jefferson
Davies, and this move was partof an effort to unify the nation
.
So again you can see that mercy, mercy, unification that's
(30:09):
basically the whole point ofthis.
And then you guys probably havenoticed or heard recently that
President Trump granted a fulland unconditional pardon to Ross
Ulbricht, the founder of SilkRoad, who had an underground
online marketplace forfacilitating the sale of illegal
drugs and illicit goods.
He was sentenced to two lifesentences plus 40 years and
(30:33):
received a full andunconditional pardon recently.
Cesar (30:36):
Damn.
Rob (30:36):
Do you know why?
To hit him up on the DM, Goddamn.
Or he's probably going to buildsomething in the background.
And here's another one.
Cesar George Steinbrenner, thecontroversial owner of the New
York Yankees, was convicted formaking illegal campaign
contributions to Richard Nixonduring his reelection campaign.
He was fined $15,000 andsentenced to two years of
(30:59):
probation.
However, Gerald Ford grantedSteinbrenner a full pardon for
his conviction.
So do you think that he filledout the application or he just
hit him up and got pardoned?
Cesar (31:11):
Probably sent one of his agents.
It's like hey, listen, I needyou to get that baseball player
for me and also do this on theside.
That's the boss.
Go, get me a couple of calzonesright now.
Prado, move it out.
Rob (31:20):
This is it.
I mean, pardons are adouble-edged sword.
On one hand, they have the toolfor justice and mercy, and on
the other hand, is it cronyism.
Is there something behind it?
Some proposed transparencymeasures or even limits on the
types of crimes that can bepardoned, but that's kind of
what we're dealing with.
So any key takeaways, chris?
Chris (31:40):
Man, it sounds dangerous, like if you use it wrongly, you
know.
But if you do use it right orcorrectly, it pardons.
It could be good, it could be agood thing, but um, yeah, it's,
I don't.
It is wild, though.
Cesar (31:56):
I didn't realize you can just pardon anybody, or anything
caesar yeah, man, like anythingelse in politics, this can be
used as a tool for good or goodor evil, whatever it is, uh,
depending on who sits in thepresident's chair.
I have heard of, you know,let's say, inmates or people on
the throw or stuff like that.
They were innocent, but becauseof the you know, like you
(32:17):
mentioned red tape, they werestill on death row and then the
president has a part of them.
So in that essence, it is good.
But then you have all theselittle nefarious parties that,
like I mentioned earlier, blurthe line and kind of allow for
the next president.
So just keep pushing it andpushing it, and pushing it.
It is a slippery slope.
Victor (32:37):
Victor.
It's a tricky situation becauseI mean you can see where it can
be of extreme benefit.
It's also a power that can beeasily abused.
It's also a power that can beeasily abused, and I just want
to take this rest of my timehere to try to urge us to stop
pardoning these turkeys that arerunning a fucking muck and
(33:00):
destroying this country, thefabric of the United States of
America, and I will not standfor it.
Cesar (33:08):
I thought you were going to go a little different
direction.
Rob (33:11):
No, that's exactly where we needed him to go.
Cesar (33:13):
I thought you were going to shit on Chris for some reason
.
Victor (33:15):
Chris isn't going to get a pardon for any of his
episodes, especially ketchup onpizza.
You should be jailed for that.
Rob (33:23):
So thank you for tuning in.
Don't forget to follow us onInstagram, twitter and YouTube
at I'm Not Dumb, but where wepost extra fun content you may
not find on the podcast, andbefore you go, hit that
subscribe button because you'llfeel better.
Trust me, until next time, staycurious Later.
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