November 23, 2024 • 41 mins
Gain a deeper understanding of the intricate connections between humans, animals, and the environment as we explore the One Health concept. Picture the harmony of adding a curious chameleon to our office or the joy of raising a lamb on a farm, and discover how these experiences underscore the vital interplay between species. Together, we unravel the complexities of zoonotic diseases, emphasizing the crucial balance needed to maintain a healthy ecosystem, while sharing compelling personal stories that bring the science to life.
Journey with us through the world of infectious diseases tied to our animal companions, from the salmonella lurking on reptiles to the risks posed by cats. We highlight the precautions necessary for those with vulnerable immune systems, offering insights into living safely with pets and wildlife. Explore the unique challenges of practicing medicine in bustling port cities, where unexpected diseases like murine typhus lurk, and learn about the biosecurity measures that protect both human and animal health in diverse environments.
Discover the profound benefits and responsibilities of pet ownership, from the heartwarming stories of the incarcerated training service animals to the comfort therapy dogs bring in hospitals. We emphasize the importance of vaccinations and responsible care, offering practical tips and trusted resources to ensure the safety and well-being of all involved. Stay engaged with the Infectious Science community as we invite you to subscribe, share your thoughts, and remain curious about the fascinating interplay between humans and the natural world.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a podcast about One Health the idea that
the health of humans, animals,plants and the environment that
we all share are intrinsicallylinked.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical
Branch and the GalvestonNational Laboratory.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
This is Infectious Science.
Where enthusiasm for science?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
is contagious.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
All right.
Hello everyone, Welcome to thisnew episode of Infectious
Science.
We're super excited to be here.
How are you doing?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Good, good Thanks.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Living the dream, afraid I'll wake up.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah.
How are the experiments goingin the lab?
Good, yeah, yeah.
What's new for you?
Yeah, guess what.
I just decided to buy a new petfrom my office.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Oh, what'd you get?
Speaker 4 (00:57):
You guys know that I collect tarantulas.
Right, I obviously have my catat home and dog and so on, but
I'm also into collectingtarantulas.
So the other day I was at avery large national pet store
I'm not going to say the namehere.
No free advertising onInfectious Bites.
And I wanted to get a tarantulabut I saw they had a chameleon,
(01:21):
so I got a chameleon and alwayswanted to have a chameleon, and
it's now in the tank in myoffice.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
So just your average Wednesday going out buying a
chameleon.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Average Wednesday for a bit.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
To be fair, I had the tank, I had the plants growing
in the tank, and so on, so itwas always on my mind to get one
of those.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Prepared A prepared impulse buy.
Yes, those prepared a preparedimpulse buy.
Is that what you're?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
saying.
Is that an oxymoron?
I I don't know.
Yes, okay.
So I actually was reminded ofthe podcast, believe it or not,
when I bought the chameleon,because they make you sign the,
the contracts, and when you buyan animal button.
They also give you this littlepamphlet that's entitled
understanding zoonotic diseases,and I think I don't know if
that's a new thing or not, but Ithink I was interested in that
and it gives you an overview ofzoonotic diseases.
(02:10):
For the listeners that don'tknow what a zoonotic disease is,
it means a disease that can betransmitted or go from an animal
to a human or from a human backto an animal, and the pamphlet
talks about that and it givesyou some recommendations on
proper hygiene and what youshould teach your children and
so on, what you should do withyour pets, vaccinations and so
(02:31):
on.
I thought it was very neat.
I don't know if that's a newthing.
Like you, guys have pets.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Yeah, I've only ever had cats, dogs, the occasional
goldfish.
I know Camille has some prettycrazy pet stories.
Growing up on a farm Camillecare to share one.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, as Christina mentioned, I grew up on a
livestock farm and at one pointI had a lamb so a baby sheep,
for anyone who's listening andhe was rejected by his mother so
I had to bottle feed him and itwas the middle of winter that
was when he was born, so it waslike January in New York, so
it's super, super cold.
So I actually brought him inthe house and he lived in our
(03:08):
downstairs house and he wasactually house, trained him.
He followed our dogs around.
When our dogs went outside, hewent outside with them.
He'd come when you called him.
He would try to eat dog foodand how dogs circle before they
lay down.
He picked up on that behaviorand he would do it and he would
lay at your feet.
So he would lay at my feetwhile I was doing my homework.
So that was sweet.
But the best thing about thislamb was that he wouldn't come
when my brother called him.
(03:29):
It was only when I did it.
So even though my brother wouldtry to like mimic my voice by
doing like a falsetto and justbeing like come here, like this
lamb, like totally ignored him,like completely knew it wasn't
me, would just like absolutelycontinue on grazing out in our
front yard like just absolutelyleft him alone.
So he was in the house for likeI think, three or four months
until it was warm enough for himto like actually go outside.
(03:50):
But he was totally.
He was basically like a dog.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
I've heard of indoor outdoor cats, indoor outdoor
dogs.
Never heard of indoor outdoorlambs.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You see more farm friends.
That's true, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
What happened to the lamb ultimately?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
He was really good.
I loved him.
He was just like he was sowell-trained, but he actually.
For many years I used him as myshow sheep, oh cool.
And so he was what other youngpeople who wanted to learn on
how to handle larger animals.
Sheep aren't huge, but ifyou're like, I don't know, six
or seven, they seem pretty big.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
They're like the same height as you.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
He was so docile, so they he actually learned a lot
of people learned how to workwith animals with him and also
how to groom them properly,because that's the thing you do,
only for showing, really, orlike how to shear.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
I made the yarn from his wool I like spun it on like
a hand loom and everything.
It was a whole thing but yeah,but he eventually passed.
Growing up in San Antonio,south Texas, we do have high
schools that are thoroughlyinvolved in livestock and stuff
like that, but I'd always heardof them using goats, so it's
really cool that probably intexas you do use goats because
it's probably too hot down here.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
That makes sense, I didn't think about that, yeah
but you there's, yeah, a lot ofgoat species are like more
evolved to live in this, but ifyou, even if you, like, sheared
sheep down here, I wouldn't keepthem like it's like 91 outside
right now, but it's humidity, Ithink.
But they do so well in thenorthern states because it's so
cold, but they're really fun.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Did I ever tell you guys that I was an instructor
for a baby goat yoga for twoyears?
Speaker 5 (05:13):
No, no, this is untold stories from your past.
I didn't even know you did yoga.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I'm not the yoga type .
No, that was a joke, but I knowit's a thing that people do.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
I've seen it.
I want to do it.
I've also seen like alpaca yoga.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I feel like the people who want to do that are
the people who've never had tolike chase down goats, because
they've gotten out of theirenclosures, goats are escape
artists, serious escape artistsGoats are pretty wild, I'm not
going to lie.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
So.
So, since this is a podcast oninfectious diseases, what
infectious diseases do you thinkyou could have gotten from that
lamb, and how?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, there's not a ton I'd worry about with sheep
If you were taking them to movethem across state lines or
anything.
You have to test them forscrapies, but that's not, as far
as I know, communicable tohumans.
Not a ton that I would worryabout with sheep at least sheep
if you're not transporting theminternationally.
I'm sure there are Actually Iknow there are and you can
probably talk more about thisbut there's certain diseases
(06:10):
that can be carried by smallruminants that we do worry about
, but they're not in the UnitedStates as much.
Yeah, If I was working withpigs or cows or something like
that, I could definitely giveyou a list, but from lambs,
nothing I super worry about Nottoo many that come to mind.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
right, I can think of lauping ill, which is the
flavivirus, but it's only foundin the UK or parts of Europe.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Yeah, it's not here, I can think of an infection that
is particularly pertinent toamphibians and reptiles, though,
dennis, and considering youhave a chameleon, I can imagine
you would be slightly concerned.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Yes, and I also have a tortoise.
You have a tortoise?
Speaker 5 (06:47):
as well.
There you go, yeah, what kindof tortoise.
A.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Greek tortoise.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I don't know what that looks like.
I don't know what that lookslike, how big is your tortoise.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Maybe yeah, they can't see that Maybe like two.
I don't know.
What is that?
Maybe a sign of a man, A signof Victor Wimbanyama's hand.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
Yes, yes, for all my basketball fans.
But yeah, the bacteria thatcomes to mind is salmonella, and
I'm pretty sure a lot of ourlisteners have heard of, if not
encountered, salmonella in theirown lives.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Wait a minute.
Salmonella is something that Iassociate with eggs or chicken,
cooked chicken, so that's why wewash the cutting boards where
we cut our chicken quicklyafterwards, because that's the
place.
So reptilians and salmonella.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Yeah, so reptiles and amphibians actually have
salmonella naturally on theirskin and then also in their
digestive tract.
So whoever's actually handlingthe reptiles, the amphibians?
If you're cleaning theirenvironment, if you're picking
up their waste, you can actuallyfind salmonella in their feces,
in their environment.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
So wash your hands after you cuddle your chameleon
Absolutely my chameleon doesn'twant to be cuddled.
That's fair when.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
I reach in there, so all reptiles have salmonella or
is this just a precautionarymeasure or two?
Speaker 5 (08:08):
I think it's just a precautionary measure in general
that they could.
I did not look up.
It's like the same thing witheggs.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I feel like you should always cook your eggs to
a safe temperature, because theycould have salmonella.
If you're handling reptiles,whether it's a chameleon or a
snake or something, it couldhave salmonella.
Whenever I've handled snakesbecause I love snakes, I think
they're really cool I'm alwayssure to, like, I don't know,
wash my hands, Don't touch yourface, especially little kids is
more what you would worry aboutwith being like touching it and
(08:34):
then touching their mouth, ortheir hands and then touching
their mouth.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
So are you saying, Camille, that I should cook my
reptile to a safe temperature?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I do not recommend coming with your reptile.
I feel like for some reason Idon't think chameleons are
actually endangered, but theidea of that is horrifying to me
.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
That was obviously a joke.
Don't, don't.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It's going to taste like chicken, isn't that what
people say?
Speaker 5 (08:55):
No, honestly I didn't realize it, but apparently
there's an estimated like one,almost one and a half million
cases of salmonella that arereported annually.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and it is still the leading cause of death for
foodborne illnesses.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
So it really is something that's super pertinent
in our civilization today, inour society.
And symptoms like we knowdiarrhea, vomiting, fever,
abdominal pain.
So if you've been handling areptile and you start feeling
that go get yourself checked out, okay, a reptile dentist and
you start feeling that go getyourself checked out, okay.
I will say typically the moreserious infections tend to
really take place in patientswith immunocompromised states or
(09:34):
immunosuppression.
But if you do start feeling anysymptoms or anything like that,
go to the doctor becauseoverall you can get it treated
with some antibiotics, fluidsbecause overall you can get it
treated with some antibioticsfluids.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So, christina, you're saying it's in the GI tract, so
it's probably mostly in thefeces of the animals, right?
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Yeah, so it's on the skin, and then you'll also find
it on the feces.
Oh okay, okay I think it'sinteresting.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I'm looking at this pamphlet you got and it's
interesting that they don'tmention that immunocompromised
people are more likely to be atrisk.
I would expect that to be inthere because, particularly like
they have a whole section onlike when children are handling
pets, because like they're moreat risk group, not because
they're more likely to get sick,but because they're more likely
to like, handle them and thentouch their face or their eyes
or something.
So it's curious because that'ssomething that for a lot of
(10:18):
infections anyone who's?
immunocompromised is more likelyto get them from a pet?
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Absolutely, and that's actually something that
we look for clinically whenwe're going to diagnose an
immunocompromised patient.
These infections that normallywouldn't surface in people with
sufficient immune systems theystart surfacing and once you see
one, two, three of theseinfections, a light goes off and
you start to test forimmunocompromisation.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, and that's I know.
I'm someone, I have two catsand that's something I know when
people talk about liketoxoplasma or something like
that.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It's considered a torch disease, which are like a
handful of diseases thatbasically can cause really
detrimental effects to thenewborn, and so toxoplasma
itself causes this classic triadof symptoms that we see.
So you have retinocoroiditis,which is an inflammation of the
retina and of the choroid, andit can lead to just like really
threatened vision.
Hydroslephilus, which is anincreased, basically cranial
(11:12):
pressure due to an increase offluid in the baby's head, and
that can lead to a whole bunchof things like really severe
headaches, obviously convulsions, so seizures, and then
intracerebral calcifications aswell, which can lead to a bunch
of different things likecognitive impairment,
psychiatric disabilities, thingslike that in the baby, and it
can be pretty severe.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
And so when you say Christina, torch disease, you
obviously don't mean the BritishEnglish version of a flashlight
.
So what does TORCH stand for?
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Yeah.
So TORCH stands for, the T isfor toxoplasma, o is for other,
which stands for syphilis,parvovirus, hiv, the R is
rubella, the C iscytomegalovirus and the H is
herpes simplex virus.
So when a patient is pregnant,oftentimes they will
preemptively be tested for theseinfections, just to protect the
fetus itself, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I didn't know about cytomegalovirus.
That's really common.
We isolate PBMCs in our lab sothose are a specific type of
cell that we're isolating fromthe blood so we can grow a virus
in the lab and propagate it andcytomegalovirus, so we just
call it CMV.
And a lot of the blood thatclinics get is CMV positive
because people have hadcytomegalovirus at some point
and so, like you have tospecifically ask and then it's
(12:21):
rare to get that, you get CMVnegative blood.
So that's interesting.
I didn't know it was a torchinfection, but it's really
common, yeah, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
Wow, I didn't know that.
That's crazy to me, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
If you listeners out there, if you're interested to
learn more about toxoplasmosis,which is a fascinating disease
it's not fascinating as adisease, but the transmission
cycle and all that stuff Pleasego back to our episode that we
did in season one, where we talkabout how toxoplasma can
control the behavior ofmammalian species.
(12:53):
Super, super interesting,fascinating story Cats.
Is there anything else that wehave to be concerned about?
Which cats can?
Speaker 5 (13:01):
transmit Cats themselves.
They can transmit a whole lot.
Just talking about toxoplasmareal quick, Because she's a dog
person.
I am a dog person, but I doappreciate cats.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I respect them is the way that I say it.
That's how cats want to betreated.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Yes, exactly, so we get along okay.
We vibe.
But I will say that toxoplasma,aside from just being
transmitted by cats in the fecesright, you can also get it from
eating undercooked meat too.
But yeah, going back to thingsthat cats can transmit to us, I
think we've all potentiallyheard of cat scratch fever.
It's a great song and the feveris actually due to Bartonella,
(13:39):
which is also a bacterium,specifically Bartonella henselae
, and so basically the way thatcats get this in their nails is
that the fleas that are on catsinfected cats are the source of
the Bartonella and cats arescratching themselves from the
fleas, so they basically get thebacterium on their claws and
(14:01):
then, if you get scratched by aninfected cat, you're basically
introducing the bacteria into anopen wound at that point.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Keep your pets treated for fleas and ticks
Exactly Like we want you to yeahexactly that's why it's so
important.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
I think a lot of people don't realize that flea
and tick prevention isn't justfor sanitary reasons to keep
fleas in your home.
There's a purpose behind that.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Fleas and ticks can transmit a whole lot, so can the
fleas transmit it to us as wellwhen they bite us?
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Yeah, okay, and body lice as well.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Something interesting .
So here in Galveston there'soften cases of not often, but I
believe it's almost every yearwe see cases of typhus, and how
that actually is occurring isbecause we have cat fleas here
Murine typhus.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Murine typhus yes.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yes, thank you for that, these cat fleas.
So we have possums in Galvestonand a lot of them a researcher
told me, basically are carryingthis, and so cat fleas get on
these possums and then they canalso go on to stray cats or like
feral cats or if people aren'tkeeping up on flea and tick care
, maybe even their cats ifthey're like indoor, outdoor,
and then people can end upgetting murine typhus.
(15:07):
So it's something that we seein Galveston.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
That's pretty crazy.
Practicing medicine inGalveston is such a cool thing
because it is a port city andyou see so many different things
in port cities that younormally wouldn't see in
landlocked places, so that'sselfishly a very cool place to
practice, and this is actually areminder that we always wanted
to do an episode with LucasBlanton here at UTMB, who's an
expert in this, and we need tohave him come on the show and
(15:31):
talk about that because it'ssuch an interesting story.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
So I guess the lesson learned is don't have pet
possums.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Or make sure they're treated for fleece and tape.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
They're only indoor possums.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Indoor.
Only they're indoor onlypossums.
I feel like they'd be so mad.
I see possums here when I'm outrunning and they are two feet
long and I'm like, wow, you area large creature.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Yes, and then just to clarify by regulation you're
not allowed to have possums aspets, so we're not endorsing you
.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Having pet possums, so we're not endorsing you
having pet possums.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
No, this is illegal, so don't do it, okay.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
I will say, though it's important to just throw out
there so that people aren'tscared If you are infected and
you do catch the infection early, you go and you seek medical
treatment.
A lot of these infectionstoxoplasma, bartonella they're
treated with a course ofantibiotics.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So don't be afraid.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Just be aware of your surroundings and of what you're
doing and do your best to tryto prevent these things.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah.
So speaking of this, possumsgot me thinking so when I was in
college I worked with a raptoreducation program.
I went to Cornell University.
They have a big vet school,Christine's making a
velociraptor hands at me.
And so they have this huge vetschool and they have wildlife
clinic and often they have birdsthat come in, so wild birds,
(16:46):
but they're unable to bereleased because they have like
wing damage or something likethat Interesting.
And it was interesting because,as they were originally wild
animals, it was something wealways thought about, that we
were a little more aware of whatit looks like to be handling
these birds and just being moremindful of it, not just behavior
wise, but also from aninfectious disease standpoint
and I know a really good friendof mine has a parrot that she
(17:08):
adopted and I was talking withher about that.
There's actually a prettyinteresting infection that birds
can carry that we just want tobe aware of.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is
psittacosis.
Am I correct?
Yeah, and that's caused bychlamydia psittacitis, something
like that.
It's a chlamydia strain, yeah,but it's often found in parrots,
specifically.
And what kind of bird does yourfriend have?
Is it a parrot?
Yes, yeah, yeah, so definitelywant to be a little bit more
(17:39):
careful about that.
Typically it's a pretty mildinfection, if it's symptomatic
at all in a patient.
So the patient will have drycough, fever, chills, headaches,
muscle aches.
But, like we've previouslystated, in immunocompromised
patients or immunosuppressedpatients, so patients that are
on steroids for some reason,like prednisone, or patients
that are undergoing cancertreatment, so chemotherapy, some
of these infections candefinitely manifest to bigger
(18:01):
things.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, Christina.
Can you also clarify again isit just, is it in the cage, or
is it on the bird, or is it inthe feces, or and is it
consistently there?
And tell me a little bit aboutif you have birds.
What's the risk really of beingexposed?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
When I first heard of this and I hope I'm getting
this right I gathered the ideathat it's specifically found in
the GI tract of the birds, butit replicates in the respiratory
system, if I'm correct.
So you can get this infectionthrough same thing as toxoplasma
right, picking up feces likesalmonella too but also through
(18:39):
respiratory secretions frombirds, so mucus from infected
birds, dry saliva from infectedbirds, so that can all be in the
bird's environment essentially.
So if you're cleaning out thisbird's cage or something like
that, you can in the end get theinfection by interacting with
them.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So normally we recommend washing your hands
right as a measure.
Normally we recommend washingyour hands right as a measure.
But what you're saying is, ifyou clean the cage and there's a
lot of dust and particles thatyou produce, you could inhale
that and you could get theinfection that way too correct.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
Yes, from what I could understand, and so that's
why especially if also withother infections too if you want
to be extra careful, just goahead and wear some proper PPE
when you're cleaning things.
What is PPE, so personalprotective equipment.
If you want to get yourselfjust some gloves and maybe a
mask so you're not inhaling thisdust or these things in the air
and so that you're also notexposing your skin or your hands
(19:34):
to the actual bacterium orpathogens, that also might help
just keeping you a little bitextra safe.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
I wonder if a lot of it comes from the fact that a
lot of birds that are marketedare potentially wild caught yeah
, yeah, and some might be higherstress things like that.
So I wonder if that sort ofcontributes to what birds end up
being positive for it.
And I'm not actually sure thatchain pet stores test for it.
If you're saying it's a mildinfection, yeah they are.
(20:01):
I don't necessarily know thatyou're saying it's a mild
infection.
I don't necessarily know thatyou're getting an animal that
you know whether or not it'scarrying this bacteria
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Camille, can you explain to me why animals coming
out of the wild seem to havemore infections than animals
that maybe are bred, purposebred or something like that?
Can you explain?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
that, yeah.
So when I think about this, Igo back to like coming up on a
farm background.
When you have animals that aredomesticated, not only are you
bringing them for specificgenetics, but they're often
they've been around humans forso long that they're descended
from animals that we've alreadyhad vaccinated, that they're
already treated.
They're not being relocatedusually across like from one
(20:39):
hemisphere to another orsomething like that and they're
domesticated.
It's less stressful for them.
So a big thing is, when youdomesticate animals, you're
basically breeding them to becalmer.
Is really what comes out of it?
Right, like, why are dogs notwolves?
That's what it comes down to.
So they're calmer.
I think we're also monitoringtheir health.
But when you take animals fromthe wild like a good friend of
mine is an exotics vet out inCalifornia and she was talking
(21:01):
to me about like reptile showsand she's like any like reptiles
that are wild caught are verylikely to be carrying parasites
and because these things existin the environment, I recently
got a fish that was captive,bred, but if I had gotten the
same species and it was wildcaught, I would have had to
deworm it because theexpectation is they carry worms,
because if they're exposed towater.
If you have animals that arejust out there in the wild, they
(21:21):
aren't.
It's not that they can'tsurvive, it's just that they're
more likely to have pickedsomething up because it's in the
environment and it's there.
But also, when you catch themand then are bringing them into
something like a pet store, youmight be putting them in closer
quarters than they've been withother birds.
Those birds might've beencaught from different places.
You create this melting pot.
It's similar to any other liveanimal market.
(21:42):
You have these animals that arecoming from all over.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
So what are you saying is and correct me if I'm
wrong but it sounds like whenthey live in the wild they're
exposed to more sources and theydeal with that in their way,
compared to animals that aremaybe grew up in a clean
environment of a pet store orsomething like that, yeah, like
we've artificially created anenvironment where we've gone out
(22:06):
of our way to exclude pathogensentry right, like they've been
dewormed or they've been kept inmore of a biosecure facility
where there's not just thisincoming animals from anywhere,
or like people from anywherethat are potentially coming in.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I know big poultry farms in the United States, like
for producing eggs forsomething like McDonald's.
I know the guy who runs thosefarms and none of their workers
can have pet birds.
And why is that?
Because there's that risk, yeah, so like the considerations for
something like livestock oreven for domesticated pets is
different than something that'swild caught, like potentially
(22:38):
like reptiles, some fish birds.
So if you're getting an animalthat's wild caught, it's
something I would think aboutmore.
And I would also just say, as abiologist, when I was getting
fish, I went out of my way tofind things that were captive,
bred because I didn't want todisturb an ecosystem, because we
never quite know what that'sdoing and it might be done
sustainably, but it might not be.
Ask your questions and educateyourself for sure.
Good for you.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
You used the word biosecurity, yeah, and I think
we need to explain to listenersthat there's a difference
between farm animals andcompanion animals, where you,
although you have made farmanimals into companion, animals.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
The lines are blurred .
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Farm animals.
It's the production value, it'sthe money that the system needs
to yield, and you don't wantany kind of introduction of a
disease because it will reducethe amount of money that you can
make.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
I would argue that's the same for pet stores, though
they don't want to introduce it.
And so there is a vestedinterest in, when I say
biosecurity, knowing what youhave in your population so is
something already present, right?
Or knowing what you have inyour population so like is
something already present, right?
Or knowing what you have thepotential to have.
So I grew up on a farm where wekept cattle.
They were out on pasture.
We always had to deworm themevery year because they're out
on pasture, so it's somethingthey were going to come in
(23:52):
contact with.
But for us we were like no,like they're out, so like yes,
it was something we knew whatwas in our population, which is
that we had healthy stock.
We knew what they could beexposed to, so like.
Then we took care of it, Likeokay, we're going to deworm them
.
And then we knew anything thatwe were introducing to that
population.
So if we were coming in withnew animals, things like that,
there's a quarantine period,they're kept separate, and even
(24:12):
like pet stores do that as well,I know.
So that's what I mean when Italk about biosecurity.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Right?
Yeah, I agree, but I think Iwould also disagree because the
numbers that you have in farmanimals are much greater than in
a pet store.
I'm not saying that you can'tget kennel cough in a pet store
or something like that, but Ithink from the pet store
perspective, I think theprotection of human health is
bigger than the concern abouthuman health and then the
(24:36):
animal's health, don't you think?
Speaker 5 (24:40):
I don't know.
I don't know because whenever Ithink of biosecurity and I
specifically think of cattle,like, the first thing that comes
to my mind is mad cow disease.
You know what I mean and I knowthat's a very dramatic example,
but, like, I think that's inlarge part due to the danger
that that poses to, like thepeople around the cattle.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, I don't know anyone who's an agricultor who
doesn't actively think abouthuman health personally, because
if you don't think about humanhealth one, you're not safe, but
then your customers also aren'tsafe, Like whatever product
you're producing milk, eggs,meat so even if you're treating
an infection in an animal, say,and you need a particular
medication, there's withdrawalson milk or meat, on like how
(25:21):
long that animal has to stay outof our food system, so there's
no leftover of the drugs or theinfection or whatever.
So I think that I don'tnecessarily agree that pet
stores think more about humanhealth than agriculturalists do.
I think pet stores need to likemake their animals look healthy
and take them home, but they'renot giving you a specific
reptile thing of like you shouldthink about salmonella.
(25:43):
Or if you get a bird, like theygive you a specific pamphlet
about psittacosis, Not like ohbeware, but just be mindful.
Whereas if you were getting Idon't know if you've ever been
to like a fair or whatever, butthere's like hand-washing
stations everywhere.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yeah, yeah, Because they're like if you pet are cows
, you should wash your hands,yeah, so what other pets do you
guys have and what otherdiseases do we have?
To Zoonotic diseases.
Right, we're talking aboutzoonotic diseases.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
I actually have a friend who recently told me that
he's getting a pet rat and thatimmediately.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
That's horrifying.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
I just I don't like their tails so this friend is
particularly quiet and when Ihad the exact same reaction I
don't like their tails, so thisfriend is particularly quiet and
when I had the exact samereaction, I was like why, why
would you do this?
And immediately his face justbrightened up and he talked
about how like friendly rats areand how smart they are.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
I know they're friendly and smart, but their
tail, they're ugly.
Apparently they're well loved.
You're shaking your head at me.
I think rats are cute.
I don't have an issue with thetail.
Possums have the same type oftail.
I also think possums are ugly.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
It's just the naked tail.
It's to each her own man toeach her own.
But it made me think of theplague, specifically your senia
pestis, right?
So what?
What exactly went, is a verylarge question.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
That's a whole multiple episode man.
It's a whole season.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
But essentially, how the plague was transmitted was
through fleas that were found onrats that were basically
running rampant throughout thecities, right, and the way that
it was easily transported fromplace to place was through these
rats that were jumping on theseships, that were jumping on
caravans and that were used andfacilitated to do trade
throughout a bunch ofcivilizations.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Right, but you just casually mentioned a very
critical aspect.
You said it's actuallytransmitted through the fleas,
not the rats.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Yes, exactly, so get a flea-less rat.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, get a flea-less rat.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
You're good.
No, but yeah, these, please canalso.
Of course, they're found onrats, and that was like the big
genesis of the plague, becausethere were rats everywhere, but
they can also be found onprairie dogs.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
We do have it endemic in the United States.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
There's a couple cases of plague every year yeah
exactly, specifically in Western.
United States yeah exactlyCamping we actually had.
I don't know if I'm supposed tomention this, but we had a test
question once that literallyjust mentioned it was for our
infectious disease course and itjust mentioned a man who had
gone camping in Arizona and thenpresented with tender
(28:28):
lymphadenopathy in his inguinalregion, so in his, like, lower
abdominal region.
Yeah, yeah, but I know thatthere's a huge history behind
the plague and behind Yersiniapestis specifically, and so the
plague, as I think a lot ofpeople know, just absolutely ran
rampant throughout not onlyEurope but also Asia, northern
(28:48):
Africa and the Middle East fromlike the 1300s into the 1800s,
until we actually identifiedwhat was the source of the Black
Death, but we still have it now.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
A few years ago there was a large outbreak in
Madagascar.
We certainly still have casesin many places all over the
world.
It's just it's endemicallythere because we have rodent
populations.
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (29:12):
I think there's a lot of stigma associated with rats,
and I just quickly wanted tomention also, since you brought
up, prairie dogs I was bitten bya prairie dog, by the way.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Oh heaven, Is it a cool scar.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Kind of.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Oh, it is a cool scar .
Speaker 4 (29:25):
There was also an outbreak of mpox associated with
pet prairie dogs that wereimported, or prairie dogs not
pet, but imported from differentplaces in in africa I think.
But coming back to the rats,yeah, so, if to the listeners,
if you ever get the chance tovisit the, the galveston
national lab, we we actuallyhave a a little bit of a exhibit
(29:48):
here in the entrance area,because we used to have plague
in.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Galveston yes, in Galby.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
And if you see, you will walk in and you will see
all of the photos of the medicalstudents here in Galveston
catching rats, trapping rats,killing them and investigating
the plague cases in Galveston.
There's actually a map in theentrance area where you can see
where we had plague cases herein Galveston One case I think in
1920, something not too farfrom my house.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
So clearly I need to pay more attention to my
surroundings.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
You do walk by it every time they get into the
podcast.
I've never stopped to read it,but I've noticed it's there.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
I didn't know it was just about the plague.
I thought it was about justlike diseases in general.
It's fair.
I think it's also interestingto note and I didn't notice
until recently that there aredifferent forms of the plague.
So there's bubonic plague,which is what we all know of
with the Black Death, which isbasically your lymph nodes
become huge and they form these,like bubos is what they're
called, and they can ulcerate,and so that's the pictures that
(30:45):
you get when you think of theBlack Death, right?
But then there's alsosepticemic plague, which is the
bubonic plague.
Once it becomes septic,essentially, so once it goes
throughout your whole body andspreads through your blood, that
is pretty wild.
And then there's pneumonicplague too, which is it's
contagious, but it's in thelungs and it can basically you
cough up blood and you cough upplague.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
That's what my friend studies here, Really yeah.
My best friend.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
she studies plague it's actually where the term
quarantine came from.
During one of the large wavesof the plague, venetian ports
required ships to originallyjust isolate themselves for 30
days, and then they extended itto a 40-day period just to make
sure that they didn't have anyactive infections going on or
anything like that.
And the Italian word for 40 iscuarenta, apparently, which in
(31:33):
Spanish is cuarenta, apparently,which in Spanish is cuarenta.
But that's quarantine, right,that's very cool.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I did not know that?
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Do you know that the word duodenum comes from the
Latin word for 12?
Because it's 12 fingers side byside and that's why it was
named duodenum.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I did not know that?
I didn't know that either.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
That's why you have me here.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
That's a really random fact there you go Dennis.
I took a cadaver course and Ididn't know that we never
learned that.
That's pretty cool, all the funthings yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
I just know your intestines Duodam Jejunum Ilium.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
And I remember that because DJ Ilium.
That's such a dad joke, but itstuck with you for the exams.
Yes, it did High yield, exactly.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
I love it.
Yeah, but Yersinia pestis waseventually isolated and
discovered as the source of theplague by Alexander Yersin sorry
in 1897.
And that's where it got thename.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
The Russian fellow right.
Is he Russian?
I think so, yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Not too sure, but yeah, and that was around the
time that they were having ahuge outbreak in southern China
and also in India, which it wasincredibly detrimental to the
Indian population.
I think around like 12 millionpeople passed in that time.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
So question for both of you.
We stated that there's stillplague in the US and around the
world, but we don't see thesemassive epidemics.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
It is super treatable .
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Yeah, I was going to say plague antibiotics.
We have antibiotics.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
But I think also, people are less likely to be
exposed, like the cases that yousee are often in people who are
exposed to animals In the wildor in some way they're like more
at risk for it because of wherethey're working, if you're
working in, like, a more ruralarea or something like that.
Yeah, so I think how we livehas changed, yeah, and then we
have treatments, and when yousay the way we've lived, right
(33:38):
from the public health,perspective, the sewage system
that we developed right andthings like that, and also
probably containers for food, soyou're less likely to have.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
You don't have these rat amounts of other rat density
in cities.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
It's just we're not talking about new york city, but
new york city I have seen a rat, I kid you not, was the size of
a dachshund, it was massive andit was not afraid of people
Like it, just it looked at meand made eye contact and I was
like, oh it's horrifying.
Also, the size of roaches inNew York is unreal.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
That's fair.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah, but coming back to the public health aspect of
that, it's the way we changedour cities, the way we developed
our sewage systems and thingslike that.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
I think I read specifically after the huge
outbreak in India the last onethat that's why they started
designing their streets so muchwider too, because everything
used to be so narrow, everythingused to be so compact People
were.
When you think about a hugemetropolitan area, people are
just like packed into this tinylittle space, right.
So with wider streets, theythought more airflow and, just
in general, less chances ofcoming into contact with things.
(34:36):
I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
All right.
So do you think we need moreexample of deadly diseases that
can be transmitted from ourcompanion animals to us?
Speaker 5 (34:45):
I think we previously touched on a few of them.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Our good old friend M lepre mycobacterium lepre from
armadillos, our good old friendM lepre mycobacterium lepre from
armadillos you should not get,you should not have a pet
armadillo.
I feel like that also isillegal.
Or if it's not, it should be.
I agree, leave them alone.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
I know there's also like we talked about rabies.
Vaccinate your pets.
Vaccinate your pets, please.
Don't feed rabbit squirrels.
That's such a big thing.
Where I used to work, we usedto feed squirrels French fries
all the time.
Now, knowing what I know notgoing to do that, was it a fast
food place?
No, it wasn't.
It was another large chainedplace that worked with
(35:25):
specifically aquatic animals.
Ah, if you guys can imagine.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Not naming names.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
Not naming names, but yeah, it was a time.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
All right, but I think we definitely should send
the message that, with somereally easy steps, hand washing
and taking care of your pets andyour companion animals, right,
like we talked about vaccination, deworming, what else did?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
we talk about Flea and tick.
Flea and tick prevention rightand be an educated pet owner.
Ask questions about where thispet came from.
Has it been sick?
What has it been treated for inthe past?
Absolutely, those are importantquestions to ask, not only for
your health, but for theanimal's health and safety too.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
And just make sure you're cooking your food
properly, you're cleaning yourutensils and things that you do
use.
If you are immunocompromised orif you're pregnant, try not to
handle things that couldpotentially transmit diseases
easily.
But if you absolutely have todon that, ppe, put on those
gloves, put on a mask, just beextra careful.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
All right.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
Awesome.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
If you want to find more information, check out the
show notes.
I think a great source isalways CDC's website.
What's your experience,Christina?
What sources do you use foryour information?
Speaker 5 (36:36):
I can drop some sources for this podcast,
specifically about the thingsthat we did talk about, like the
big ones, but for the most part, cdc has a lot of really good
information.
I also really like the NIH statpearls.
It's really just a quicksummary of anything that you
want to search.
It's like a science vettedGoogle and yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I think if you're looking for exposure and like
disease info, cleveland Clinic,mayo Clinic always good sources.
If you want to like learn moreabout infections and just like
about how to keep yourself safeand all kinds of health stuff,
honestly beyond infections andfor the most part they relay
that information in a way that'sreally digestible for the
public population.
Yes, it's very, very good, easyreads and they're very
straightforward and they avoid alot of the jargon that, like
you know, nih might not.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
And I think we should also.
At the end of the show, weshould also mention the benefits
of having a pet.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, that would be a 50 millionhour episode okay that is true,
that is true yes but just tolist a couple.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
And there's now studies, more and more studies
coming out that owning a pet isgood for lowering your blood
pressure.
It's good for psychiatricbenefits yeah, treat anxiety
right.
The tactile, just the tactilecomponent of petting your animal
this is helpful for some people.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
This you get the extra if you have a dog or a cat
that you take on a leash for awalk you get the exercise
exactly, yeah, and I think it'salso good in this day and age,
in such a digitallyinterconnected world, it can
also really help, I I think,with like loneliness, like with
people, like having somethingthat's physically there with
(38:17):
them instead of just existing ina digital realm.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yes, my Chewini was a COVID Chewini and it was the
best thing that's happened to me.
Yeah, I hope that doesn't soundsad, but I do.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
So much, yes, it's not sad, so many pets got
adopted during COVID.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
And then they got returned.
Oh really, oh no, okay, that'ssad, I would never return.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
That's a sad thing, no, but pets are just incredible
little creatures and they teachso much about responsibility
and they do so much for you,even though you think you're
doing so much for them.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Yeah, even though you think you're doing so much for
them.
Yeah, I saw a video the otherday on a program in a prison.
I can't remember where it was.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
I did too.
Yeah, I've seen that.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Where, if you show good behavior, you could take
care of a cat.
Oh, a cat.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
I saw one about a training program for dogs.
So inmates are paired withthese dogs and they essentially
like train them to becomeservice animals or something
along those lines.
That's so cool, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
That's also a super.
I just want to put a shout out.
That's a very rewarding thingto do.
My parents were involved in agroup it's in the North but
there's groups all over thecountry.
It was called Guiding Eyes forthe Blind and I was involved in
it in college and trainingservice dogs for people who are
visually impaired and it is soworthwhile and such a great way
to spend your time and it's areally good community of people.
If you're ever interested, justlook it up for stuff nearby you
(39:40):
.
But it's a really valuable wayto also give back to your
community and just spend timewith some really cool, very
smart very sweet animals.
Speaker 5 (39:47):
I recommend the service animals.
When I was working inveterinary medicine they were
just incredible and it's a wholecommunity of people behind them
just to make that work.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
And you also, like, don't necessarily have to have
one that's living with you.
If that's not a possibility,you can show up and just help
out with these groups becausethey have trainings and things
like that.
That's what I did in collegeand it was so rewarding.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
So highly recommend that to anyone who may not be
able to have a pet but wants tohave some animals in their life.
So maybe we should do anepisode here on the therapy dogs
that we have here in thehospital Therapy dogs at UTMB I
didn't know that A lot of ourprofessors have therapy dogs.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
They would come for the exams.
They would come for the exams.
I always was like oh stop, Ilove them, they're precious, but
yeah, animals are incredible.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
We just wanted to have this conversation to make
you guys aware of things to bemindful of.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Yeah, exactly, so you all can live healthier, happier
lives with your pets.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
Exactly, Exactly.
So just be careful, but alsolove pets, love animals and love
everything that they can do foryou.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Perfect ending.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Thanks for listening to the Infectious Science
podcast.
Be sure to hit subscribe andvisit infectiousscienceorg to
join the conversation, accessthe show notes and to sign up
for our newsletter and receiveour free materials.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
If you enjoyed this new episode of Infectious
Science, please leave us areview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify, and go ahead and sharethis episode with some of your
friends.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Also, don't hesitate to ask questions and tell us
what topics you'd like us tocover for future episodes.
To get in touch, drop a line inthe comments section or send us
a message on social media.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
So we'll see you next time for a new episode, and in
the meantime, stay happy stayhealthy, stay interested.
Thank you.
This is a podcast about One Health the idea that
the health of humans, animals,plants and the environment that
we all share are intrinsicallylinked.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical
Branch and the GalvestonNational Laboratory.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
This is Infectious Science.
Where enthusiasm for science?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
is contagious.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
All right.
Hello everyone, Welcome to thisnew episode of Infectious
Science.
We're super excited to be here.
How are you doing?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
Good, good Thanks.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Living the dream, afraid I'll wake up.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Yeah.
How are the experiments goingin the lab?
Good, yeah, yeah.
What's new for you?
Yeah, guess what.
I just decided to buy a new petfrom my office.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Oh, what'd you get?
Speaker 4 (00:57):
You guys know that I collect tarantulas.
Right, I obviously have my catat home and dog and so on, but
I'm also into collectingtarantulas.
So the other day I was at avery large national pet store
I'm not going to say the namehere.
No free advertising onInfectious Bites.
And I wanted to get a tarantulabut I saw they had a chameleon,
(01:21):
so I got a chameleon and alwayswanted to have a chameleon, and
it's now in the tank in myoffice.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
So just your average Wednesday going out buying a
chameleon.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Average Wednesday for a bit.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
To be fair, I had the tank, I had the plants growing
in the tank, and so on, so itwas always on my mind to get one
of those.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Prepared A prepared impulse buy.
Yes, those prepared a preparedimpulse buy.
Is that what you're?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
saying.
Is that an oxymoron?
I I don't know.
Yes, okay.
So I actually was reminded ofthe podcast, believe it or not,
when I bought the chameleon,because they make you sign the,
the contracts, and when you buyan animal button.
They also give you this littlepamphlet that's entitled
understanding zoonotic diseases,and I think I don't know if
that's a new thing or not, but Ithink I was interested in that
and it gives you an overview ofzoonotic diseases.
(02:10):
For the listeners that don'tknow what a zoonotic disease is,
it means a disease that can betransmitted or go from an animal
to a human or from a human backto an animal, and the pamphlet
talks about that and it givesyou some recommendations on
proper hygiene and what youshould teach your children and
so on, what you should do withyour pets, vaccinations and so
(02:31):
on.
I thought it was very neat.
I don't know if that's a newthing.
Like you, guys have pets.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Yeah, I've only ever had cats, dogs, the occasional
goldfish.
I know Camille has some prettycrazy pet stories.
Growing up on a farm Camillecare to share one.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Yeah, as Christina mentioned, I grew up on a
livestock farm and at one pointI had a lamb so a baby sheep,
for anyone who's listening andhe was rejected by his mother so
I had to bottle feed him and itwas the middle of winter that
was when he was born, so it waslike January in New York, so
it's super, super cold.
So I actually brought him inthe house and he lived in our
(03:08):
downstairs house and he wasactually house, trained him.
He followed our dogs around.
When our dogs went outside, hewent outside with them.
He'd come when you called him.
He would try to eat dog foodand how dogs circle before they
lay down.
He picked up on that behaviorand he would do it and he would
lay at your feet.
So he would lay at my feetwhile I was doing my homework.
So that was sweet.
But the best thing about thislamb was that he wouldn't come
when my brother called him.
(03:29):
It was only when I did it.
So even though my brother wouldtry to like mimic my voice by
doing like a falsetto and justbeing like come here, like this
lamb, like totally ignored him,like completely knew it wasn't
me, would just like absolutelycontinue on grazing out in our
front yard like just absolutelyleft him alone.
So he was in the house for likeI think, three or four months
until it was warm enough for himto like actually go outside.
(03:50):
But he was totally.
He was basically like a dog.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
I've heard of indoor outdoor cats, indoor outdoor
dogs.
Never heard of indoor outdoorlambs.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You see more farm friends.
That's true, yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
What happened to the lamb ultimately?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
He was really good.
I loved him.
He was just like he was sowell-trained, but he actually.
For many years I used him as myshow sheep, oh cool.
And so he was what other youngpeople who wanted to learn on
how to handle larger animals.
Sheep aren't huge, but ifyou're like, I don't know, six
or seven, they seem pretty big.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
They're like the same height as you.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
He was so docile, so they he actually learned a lot
of people learned how to workwith animals with him and also
how to groom them properly,because that's the thing you do,
only for showing, really, orlike how to shear.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
I made the yarn from his wool I like spun it on like
a hand loom and everything.
It was a whole thing but yeah,but he eventually passed.
Growing up in San Antonio,south Texas, we do have high
schools that are thoroughlyinvolved in livestock and stuff
like that, but I'd always heardof them using goats, so it's
really cool that probably intexas you do use goats because
it's probably too hot down here.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
That makes sense, I didn't think about that, yeah
but you there's, yeah, a lot ofgoat species are like more
evolved to live in this, but ifyou, even if you, like, sheared
sheep down here, I wouldn't keepthem like it's like 91 outside
right now, but it's humidity, Ithink.
But they do so well in thenorthern states because it's so
cold, but they're really fun.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Did I ever tell you guys that I was an instructor
for a baby goat yoga for twoyears?
Speaker 5 (05:13):
No, no, this is untold stories from your past.
I didn't even know you did yoga.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
I'm not the yoga type .
No, that was a joke, but I knowit's a thing that people do.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
I've seen it.
I want to do it.
I've also seen like alpaca yoga.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I feel like the people who want to do that are
the people who've never had tolike chase down goats, because
they've gotten out of theirenclosures, goats are escape
artists, serious escape artistsGoats are pretty wild, I'm not
going to lie.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
So.
So, since this is a podcast oninfectious diseases, what
infectious diseases do you thinkyou could have gotten from that
lamb, and how?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, there's not a ton I'd worry about with sheep
If you were taking them to movethem across state lines or
anything.
You have to test them forscrapies, but that's not, as far
as I know, communicable tohumans.
Not a ton that I would worryabout with sheep at least sheep
if you're not transporting theminternationally.
I'm sure there are Actually Iknow there are and you can
probably talk more about thisbut there's certain diseases
(06:10):
that can be carried by smallruminants that we do worry about
, but they're not in the UnitedStates as much.
Yeah, If I was working withpigs or cows or something like
that, I could definitely giveyou a list, but from lambs,
nothing I super worry about Nottoo many that come to mind.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
right, I can think of lauping ill, which is the
flavivirus, but it's only foundin the UK or parts of Europe.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Yeah, it's not here, I can think of an infection that
is particularly pertinent toamphibians and reptiles, though,
dennis, and considering youhave a chameleon, I can imagine
you would be slightly concerned.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
Yes, and I also have a tortoise.
You have a tortoise?
Speaker 5 (06:47):
as well.
There you go, yeah, what kindof tortoise.
A.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Greek tortoise.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I don't know what that looks like.
I don't know what that lookslike, how big is your tortoise.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Maybe yeah, they can't see that Maybe like two.
I don't know.
What is that?
Maybe a sign of a man, A signof Victor Wimbanyama's hand.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
Yes, yes, for all my basketball fans.
But yeah, the bacteria thatcomes to mind is salmonella, and
I'm pretty sure a lot of ourlisteners have heard of, if not
encountered, salmonella in theirown lives.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Wait a minute.
Salmonella is something that Iassociate with eggs or chicken,
cooked chicken, so that's why wewash the cutting boards where
we cut our chicken quicklyafterwards, because that's the
place.
So reptilians and salmonella.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
Yeah, so reptiles and amphibians actually have
salmonella naturally on theirskin and then also in their
digestive tract.
So whoever's actually handlingthe reptiles, the amphibians?
If you're cleaning theirenvironment, if you're picking
up their waste, you can actuallyfind salmonella in their feces,
in their environment.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
So wash your hands after you cuddle your chameleon
Absolutely my chameleon doesn'twant to be cuddled.
That's fair when.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
I reach in there, so all reptiles have salmonella or
is this just a precautionarymeasure or two?
Speaker 5 (08:08):
I think it's just a precautionary measure in general
that they could.
I did not look up.
It's like the same thing witheggs.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I feel like you should always cook your eggs to
a safe temperature, because theycould have salmonella.
If you're handling reptiles,whether it's a chameleon or a
snake or something, it couldhave salmonella.
Whenever I've handled snakesbecause I love snakes, I think
they're really cool I'm alwayssure to, like, I don't know,
wash my hands, Don't touch yourface, especially little kids is
more what you would worry aboutwith being like touching it and
(08:34):
then touching their mouth, ortheir hands and then touching
their mouth.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
So are you saying, Camille, that I should cook my
reptile to a safe temperature?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I do not recommend coming with your reptile.
I feel like for some reason Idon't think chameleons are
actually endangered, but theidea of that is horrifying to me
.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
That was obviously a joke.
Don't, don't.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It's going to taste like chicken, isn't that what
people say?
Speaker 5 (08:55):
No, honestly I didn't realize it, but apparently
there's an estimated like one,almost one and a half million
cases of salmonella that arereported annually.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and it is still the leading cause of death for
foodborne illnesses.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
So it really is something that's super pertinent
in our civilization today, inour society.
And symptoms like we knowdiarrhea, vomiting, fever,
abdominal pain.
So if you've been handling areptile and you start feeling
that go get yourself checked out, okay, a reptile dentist and
you start feeling that go getyourself checked out, okay.
I will say typically the moreserious infections tend to
really take place in patientswith immunocompromised states or
(09:34):
immunosuppression.
But if you do start feeling anysymptoms or anything like that,
go to the doctor becauseoverall you can get it treated
with some antibiotics, fluidsbecause overall you can get it
treated with some antibioticsfluids.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So, christina, you're saying it's in the GI tract, so
it's probably mostly in thefeces of the animals, right?
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Yeah, so it's on the skin, and then you'll also find
it on the feces.
Oh okay, okay I think it'sinteresting.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I'm looking at this pamphlet you got and it's
interesting that they don'tmention that immunocompromised
people are more likely to be atrisk.
I would expect that to be inthere because, particularly like
they have a whole section onlike when children are handling
pets, because like they're moreat risk group, not because
they're more likely to get sick,but because they're more likely
to like, handle them and thentouch their face or their eyes
or something.
So it's curious because that'ssomething that for a lot of
(10:18):
infections anyone who's?
immunocompromised is more likelyto get them from a pet?
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Absolutely, and that's actually something that
we look for clinically whenwe're going to diagnose an
immunocompromised patient.
These infections that normallywouldn't surface in people with
sufficient immune systems theystart surfacing and once you see
one, two, three of theseinfections, a light goes off and
you start to test forimmunocompromisation.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, and that's I know.
I'm someone, I have two catsand that's something I know when
people talk about liketoxoplasma or something like
that.
Speaker 5 (10:49):
It's considered a torch disease, which are like a
handful of diseases thatbasically can cause really
detrimental effects to thenewborn, and so toxoplasma
itself causes this classic triadof symptoms that we see.
So you have retinocoroiditis,which is an inflammation of the
retina and of the choroid, andit can lead to just like really
threatened vision.
Hydroslephilus, which is anincreased, basically cranial
(11:12):
pressure due to an increase offluid in the baby's head, and
that can lead to a whole bunchof things like really severe
headaches, obviously convulsions, so seizures, and then
intracerebral calcifications aswell, which can lead to a bunch
of different things likecognitive impairment,
psychiatric disabilities, thingslike that in the baby, and it
can be pretty severe.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
And so when you say Christina, torch disease, you
obviously don't mean the BritishEnglish version of a flashlight
.
So what does TORCH stand for?
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Yeah.
So TORCH stands for, the T isfor toxoplasma, o is for other,
which stands for syphilis,parvovirus, hiv, the R is
rubella, the C iscytomegalovirus and the H is
herpes simplex virus.
So when a patient is pregnant,oftentimes they will
preemptively be tested for theseinfections, just to protect the
fetus itself, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I didn't know about cytomegalovirus.
That's really common.
We isolate PBMCs in our lab sothose are a specific type of
cell that we're isolating fromthe blood so we can grow a virus
in the lab and propagate it andcytomegalovirus, so we just
call it CMV.
And a lot of the blood thatclinics get is CMV positive
because people have hadcytomegalovirus at some point
and so, like you have tospecifically ask and then it's
(12:21):
rare to get that, you get CMVnegative blood.
So that's interesting.
I didn't know it was a torchinfection, but it's really
common, yeah, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
Wow, I didn't know that.
That's crazy to me, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
If you listeners out there, if you're interested to
learn more about toxoplasmosis,which is a fascinating disease
it's not fascinating as adisease, but the transmission
cycle and all that stuff Pleasego back to our episode that we
did in season one, where we talkabout how toxoplasma can
control the behavior ofmammalian species.
(12:53):
Super, super interesting,fascinating story Cats.
Is there anything else that wehave to be concerned about?
Which cats can?
Speaker 5 (13:01):
transmit Cats themselves.
They can transmit a whole lot.
Just talking about toxoplasmareal quick, Because she's a dog
person.
I am a dog person, but I doappreciate cats.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
I respect them is the way that I say it.
That's how cats want to betreated.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Yes, exactly, so we get along okay.
We vibe.
But I will say that toxoplasma,aside from just being
transmitted by cats in the fecesright, you can also get it from
eating undercooked meat too.
But yeah, going back to thingsthat cats can transmit to us, I
think we've all potentiallyheard of cat scratch fever.
It's a great song and the feveris actually due to Bartonella,
(13:39):
which is also a bacterium,specifically Bartonella henselae
, and so basically the way thatcats get this in their nails is
that the fleas that are on catsinfected cats are the source of
the Bartonella and cats arescratching themselves from the
fleas, so they basically get thebacterium on their claws and
(14:01):
then, if you get scratched by aninfected cat, you're basically
introducing the bacteria into anopen wound at that point.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Keep your pets treated for fleas and ticks
Exactly Like we want you to yeahexactly that's why it's so
important.
Speaker 5 (14:13):
I think a lot of people don't realize that flea
and tick prevention isn't justfor sanitary reasons to keep
fleas in your home.
There's a purpose behind that.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Fleas and ticks can transmit a whole lot, so can the
fleas transmit it to us as wellwhen they bite us?
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Yeah, okay, and body lice as well.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Something interesting .
So here in Galveston there'soften cases of not often, but I
believe it's almost every yearwe see cases of typhus, and how
that actually is occurring isbecause we have cat fleas here
Murine typhus.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
Murine typhus yes.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yes, thank you for that, these cat fleas.
So we have possums in Galvestonand a lot of them a researcher
told me, basically are carryingthis, and so cat fleas get on
these possums and then they canalso go on to stray cats or like
feral cats or if people aren'tkeeping up on flea and tick care
, maybe even their cats ifthey're like indoor, outdoor,
and then people can end upgetting murine typhus.
(15:07):
So it's something that we seein Galveston.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
That's pretty crazy.
Practicing medicine inGalveston is such a cool thing
because it is a port city andyou see so many different things
in port cities that younormally wouldn't see in
landlocked places, so that'sselfishly a very cool place to
practice, and this is actually areminder that we always wanted
to do an episode with LucasBlanton here at UTMB, who's an
expert in this, and we need tohave him come on the show and
(15:31):
talk about that because it'ssuch an interesting story.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
So I guess the lesson learned is don't have pet
possums.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Or make sure they're treated for fleece and tape.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
They're only indoor possums.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Indoor.
Only they're indoor onlypossums.
I feel like they'd be so mad.
I see possums here when I'm outrunning and they are two feet
long and I'm like, wow, you area large creature.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Yes, and then just to clarify by regulation you're
not allowed to have possums aspets, so we're not endorsing you
.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Having pet possums, so we're not endorsing you
having pet possums.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
No, this is illegal, so don't do it, okay.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
I will say, though it's important to just throw out
there so that people aren'tscared If you are infected and
you do catch the infection early, you go and you seek medical
treatment.
A lot of these infectionstoxoplasma, bartonella they're
treated with a course ofantibiotics.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
So don't be afraid.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Just be aware of your surroundings and of what you're
doing and do your best to tryto prevent these things.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yeah.
So speaking of this, possumsgot me thinking so when I was in
college I worked with a raptoreducation program.
I went to Cornell University.
They have a big vet school,Christine's making a
velociraptor hands at me.
And so they have this huge vetschool and they have wildlife
clinic and often they have birdsthat come in, so wild birds,
(16:46):
but they're unable to bereleased because they have like
wing damage or something likethat Interesting.
And it was interesting because,as they were originally wild
animals, it was something wealways thought about, that we
were a little more aware of whatit looks like to be handling
these birds and just being moremindful of it, not just behavior
wise, but also from aninfectious disease standpoint
and I know a really good friendof mine has a parrot that she
(17:08):
adopted and I was talking withher about that.
There's actually a prettyinteresting infection that birds
can carry that we just want tobe aware of.
Speaker 5 (17:15):
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about is
psittacosis.
Am I correct?
Yeah, and that's caused bychlamydia psittacitis, something
like that.
It's a chlamydia strain, yeah,but it's often found in parrots,
specifically.
And what kind of bird does yourfriend have?
Is it a parrot?
Yes, yeah, yeah, so definitelywant to be a little bit more
(17:39):
careful about that.
Typically it's a pretty mildinfection, if it's symptomatic
at all in a patient.
So the patient will have drycough, fever, chills, headaches,
muscle aches.
But, like we've previouslystated, in immunocompromised
patients or immunosuppressedpatients, so patients that are
on steroids for some reason,like prednisone, or patients
that are undergoing cancertreatment, so chemotherapy, some
of these infections candefinitely manifest to bigger
(18:01):
things.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, Christina.
Can you also clarify again isit just, is it in the cage, or
is it on the bird, or is it inthe feces, or and is it
consistently there?
And tell me a little bit aboutif you have birds.
What's the risk really of beingexposed?
Speaker 5 (18:18):
When I first heard of this and I hope I'm getting
this right I gathered the ideathat it's specifically found in
the GI tract of the birds, butit replicates in the respiratory
system, if I'm correct.
So you can get this infectionthrough same thing as toxoplasma
right, picking up feces likesalmonella too but also through
(18:39):
respiratory secretions frombirds, so mucus from infected
birds, dry saliva from infectedbirds, so that can all be in the
bird's environment essentially.
So if you're cleaning out thisbird's cage or something like
that, you can in the end get theinfection by interacting with
them.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
So normally we recommend washing your hands
right as a measure.
Normally we recommend washingyour hands right as a measure.
But what you're saying is, ifyou clean the cage and there's a
lot of dust and particles thatyou produce, you could inhale
that and you could get theinfection that way too correct.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
Yes, from what I could understand, and so that's
why especially if also withother infections too if you want
to be extra careful, just goahead and wear some proper PPE
when you're cleaning things.
What is PPE, so personalprotective equipment.
If you want to get yourselfjust some gloves and maybe a
mask so you're not inhaling thisdust or these things in the air
and so that you're also notexposing your skin or your hands
(19:34):
to the actual bacterium orpathogens, that also might help
just keeping you a little bitextra safe.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
I wonder if a lot of it comes from the fact that a
lot of birds that are marketedare potentially wild caught yeah
, yeah, and some might be higherstress things like that.
So I wonder if that sort ofcontributes to what birds end up
being positive for it.
And I'm not actually sure thatchain pet stores test for it.
If you're saying it's a mildinfection, yeah they are.
(20:01):
I don't necessarily know thatyou're saying it's a mild
infection.
I don't necessarily know thatyou're getting an animal that
you know whether or not it'scarrying this bacteria
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Camille, can you explain to me why animals coming
out of the wild seem to havemore infections than animals
that maybe are bred, purposebred or something like that?
Can you explain?
Speaker 3 (20:18):
that, yeah.
So when I think about this, Igo back to like coming up on a
farm background.
When you have animals that aredomesticated, not only are you
bringing them for specificgenetics, but they're often
they've been around humans forso long that they're descended
from animals that we've alreadyhad vaccinated, that they're
already treated.
They're not being relocatedusually across like from one
(20:39):
hemisphere to another orsomething like that and they're
domesticated.
It's less stressful for them.
So a big thing is, when youdomesticate animals, you're
basically breeding them to becalmer.
Is really what comes out of it?
Right, like, why are dogs notwolves?
That's what it comes down to.
So they're calmer.
I think we're also monitoringtheir health.
But when you take animals fromthe wild like a good friend of
mine is an exotics vet out inCalifornia and she was talking
(21:01):
to me about like reptile showsand she's like any like reptiles
that are wild caught are verylikely to be carrying parasites
and because these things existin the environment, I recently
got a fish that was captive,bred, but if I had gotten the
same species and it was wildcaught, I would have had to
deworm it because theexpectation is they carry worms,
because if they're exposed towater.
If you have animals that arejust out there in the wild, they
(21:21):
aren't.
It's not that they can'tsurvive, it's just that they're
more likely to have pickedsomething up because it's in the
environment and it's there.
But also, when you catch themand then are bringing them into
something like a pet store, youmight be putting them in closer
quarters than they've been withother birds.
Those birds might've beencaught from different places.
You create this melting pot.
It's similar to any other liveanimal market.
(21:42):
You have these animals that arecoming from all over.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
So what are you saying is and correct me if I'm
wrong but it sounds like whenthey live in the wild they're
exposed to more sources and theydeal with that in their way,
compared to animals that aremaybe grew up in a clean
environment of a pet store orsomething like that, yeah, like
we've artificially created anenvironment where we've gone out
(22:06):
of our way to exclude pathogensentry right, like they've been
dewormed or they've been kept inmore of a biosecure facility
where there's not just thisincoming animals from anywhere,
or like people from anywherethat are potentially coming in.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
I know big poultry farms in the United States, like
for producing eggs forsomething like McDonald's.
I know the guy who runs thosefarms and none of their workers
can have pet birds.
And why is that?
Because there's that risk, yeah, so like the considerations for
something like livestock oreven for domesticated pets is
different than something that'swild caught, like potentially
(22:38):
like reptiles, some fish birds.
So if you're getting an animalthat's wild caught, it's
something I would think aboutmore.
And I would also just say, as abiologist, when I was getting
fish, I went out of my way tofind things that were captive,
bred because I didn't want todisturb an ecosystem, because we
never quite know what that'sdoing and it might be done
sustainably, but it might not be.
Ask your questions and educateyourself for sure.
Good for you.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
You used the word biosecurity, yeah, and I think
we need to explain to listenersthat there's a difference
between farm animals andcompanion animals, where you,
although you have made farmanimals into companion, animals.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
The lines are blurred .
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Farm animals.
It's the production value, it'sthe money that the system needs
to yield, and you don't wantany kind of introduction of a
disease because it will reducethe amount of money that you can
make.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
I would argue that's the same for pet stores, though
they don't want to introduce it.
And so there is a vestedinterest in, when I say
biosecurity, knowing what youhave in your population so is
something already present, right?
Or knowing what you have inyour population so like is
something already present, right?
Or knowing what you have thepotential to have.
So I grew up on a farm where wekept cattle.
They were out on pasture.
We always had to deworm themevery year because they're out
on pasture, so it's somethingthey were going to come in
(23:52):
contact with.
But for us we were like no,like they're out, so like yes,
it was something we knew whatwas in our population, which is
that we had healthy stock.
We knew what they could beexposed to, so like.
Then we took care of it, Likeokay, we're going to deworm them
.
And then we knew anything thatwe were introducing to that
population.
So if we were coming in withnew animals, things like that,
there's a quarantine period,they're kept separate, and even
(24:12):
like pet stores do that as well,I know.
So that's what I mean when Italk about biosecurity.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Right?
Yeah, I agree, but I think Iwould also disagree because the
numbers that you have in farmanimals are much greater than in
a pet store.
I'm not saying that you can'tget kennel cough in a pet store
or something like that, but Ithink from the pet store
perspective, I think theprotection of human health is
bigger than the concern abouthuman health and then the
(24:36):
animal's health, don't you think?
Speaker 5 (24:40):
I don't know.
I don't know because whenever Ithink of biosecurity and I
specifically think of cattle,like, the first thing that comes
to my mind is mad cow disease.
You know what I mean and I knowthat's a very dramatic example,
but, like, I think that's inlarge part due to the danger
that that poses to, like thepeople around the cattle.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, I don't know anyone who's an agricultor who
doesn't actively think abouthuman health personally, because
if you don't think about humanhealth one, you're not safe, but
then your customers also aren'tsafe, Like whatever product
you're producing milk, eggs,meat so even if you're treating
an infection in an animal, say,and you need a particular
medication, there's withdrawalson milk or meat, on like how
(25:21):
long that animal has to stay outof our food system, so there's
no leftover of the drugs or theinfection or whatever.
So I think that I don'tnecessarily agree that pet
stores think more about humanhealth than agriculturalists do.
I think pet stores need to likemake their animals look healthy
and take them home, but they'renot giving you a specific
reptile thing of like you shouldthink about salmonella.
(25:43):
Or if you get a bird, like theygive you a specific pamphlet
about psittacosis, Not like ohbeware, but just be mindful.
Whereas if you were getting Idon't know if you've ever been
to like a fair or whatever, butthere's like hand-washing
stations everywhere.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Yeah, yeah, Because they're like if you pet are cows
, you should wash your hands,yeah, so what other pets do you
guys have and what otherdiseases do we have?
To Zoonotic diseases.
Right, we're talking aboutzoonotic diseases.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
I actually have a friend who recently told me that
he's getting a pet rat and thatimmediately.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
That's horrifying.
Speaker 5 (26:19):
I just I don't like their tails so this friend is
particularly quiet and when Ihad the exact same reaction I
don't like their tails, so thisfriend is particularly quiet and
when I had the exact samereaction, I was like why, why
would you do this?
And immediately his face justbrightened up and he talked
about how like friendly rats areand how smart they are.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
I know they're friendly and smart, but their
tail, they're ugly.
Apparently they're well loved.
You're shaking your head at me.
I think rats are cute.
I don't have an issue with thetail.
Possums have the same type oftail.
I also think possums are ugly.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
It's just the naked tail.
It's to each her own man toeach her own.
But it made me think of theplague, specifically your senia
pestis, right?
So what?
What exactly went, is a verylarge question.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
That's a whole multiple episode man.
It's a whole season.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
But essentially, how the plague was transmitted was
through fleas that were found onrats that were basically
running rampant throughout thecities, right, and the way that
it was easily transported fromplace to place was through these
rats that were jumping on theseships, that were jumping on
caravans and that were used andfacilitated to do trade
throughout a bunch ofcivilizations.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
Right, but you just casually mentioned a very
critical aspect.
You said it's actuallytransmitted through the fleas,
not the rats.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
Yes, exactly, so get a flea-less rat.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
Yeah, get a flea-less rat.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
You're good.
No, but yeah, these, please canalso.
Of course, they're found onrats, and that was like the big
genesis of the plague, becausethere were rats everywhere, but
they can also be found onprairie dogs.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
We do have it endemic in the United States.
Speaker 5 (28:06):
There's a couple cases of plague every year yeah
exactly, specifically in Western.
United States yeah exactlyCamping we actually had.
I don't know if I'm supposed tomention this, but we had a test
question once that literallyjust mentioned it was for our
infectious disease course and itjust mentioned a man who had
gone camping in Arizona and thenpresented with tender
(28:28):
lymphadenopathy in his inguinalregion, so in his, like, lower
abdominal region.
Yeah, yeah, but I know thatthere's a huge history behind
the plague and behind Yersiniapestis specifically, and so the
plague, as I think a lot ofpeople know, just absolutely ran
rampant throughout not onlyEurope but also Asia, northern
(28:48):
Africa and the Middle East fromlike the 1300s into the 1800s,
until we actually identifiedwhat was the source of the Black
Death, but we still have it now.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
A few years ago there was a large outbreak in
Madagascar.
We certainly still have casesin many places all over the
world.
It's just it's endemicallythere because we have rodent
populations.
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (29:12):
I think there's a lot of stigma associated with rats,
and I just quickly wanted tomention also, since you brought
up, prairie dogs I was bitten bya prairie dog, by the way.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Oh heaven, Is it a cool scar.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Kind of.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Oh, it is a cool scar .
Speaker 4 (29:25):
There was also an outbreak of mpox associated with
pet prairie dogs that wereimported, or prairie dogs not
pet, but imported from differentplaces in in africa I think.
But coming back to the rats,yeah, so, if to the listeners,
if you ever get the chance tovisit the, the galveston
national lab, we we actuallyhave a a little bit of a exhibit
(29:48):
here in the entrance area,because we used to have plague
in.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Galveston yes, in Galby.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
And if you see, you will walk in and you will see
all of the photos of the medicalstudents here in Galveston
catching rats, trapping rats,killing them and investigating
the plague cases in Galveston.
There's actually a map in theentrance area where you can see
where we had plague cases herein Galveston One case I think in
1920, something not too farfrom my house.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
So clearly I need to pay more attention to my
surroundings.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
You do walk by it every time they get into the
podcast.
I've never stopped to read it,but I've noticed it's there.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
I didn't know it was just about the plague.
I thought it was about justlike diseases in general.
It's fair.
I think it's also interestingto note and I didn't notice
until recently that there aredifferent forms of the plague.
So there's bubonic plague,which is what we all know of
with the Black Death, which isbasically your lymph nodes
become huge and they form these,like bubos is what they're
called, and they can ulcerate,and so that's the pictures that
(30:45):
you get when you think of theBlack Death, right?
But then there's alsosepticemic plague, which is the
bubonic plague.
Once it becomes septic,essentially, so once it goes
throughout your whole body andspreads through your blood, that
is pretty wild.
And then there's pneumonicplague too, which is it's
contagious, but it's in thelungs and it can basically you
cough up blood and you cough upplague.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
That's what my friend studies here, Really yeah.
My best friend.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
she studies plague it's actually where the term
quarantine came from.
During one of the large wavesof the plague, venetian ports
required ships to originallyjust isolate themselves for 30
days, and then they extended itto a 40-day period just to make
sure that they didn't have anyactive infections going on or
anything like that.
And the Italian word for 40 iscuarenta, apparently, which in
(31:33):
Spanish is cuarenta, apparently,which in Spanish is cuarenta.
But that's quarantine, right,that's very cool.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I did not know that?
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Do you know that the word duodenum comes from the
Latin word for 12?
Because it's 12 fingers side byside and that's why it was
named duodenum.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I did not know that?
I didn't know that either.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
That's why you have me here.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
That's a really random fact there you go Dennis.
I took a cadaver course and Ididn't know that we never
learned that.
That's pretty cool, all the funthings yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
I just know your intestines Duodam Jejunum Ilium.
Speaker 3 (32:13):
And I remember that because DJ Ilium.
That's such a dad joke, but itstuck with you for the exams.
Yes, it did High yield, exactly.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
I love it.
Yeah, but Yersinia pestis waseventually isolated and
discovered as the source of theplague by Alexander Yersin sorry
in 1897.
And that's where it got thename.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
The Russian fellow right.
Is he Russian?
I think so, yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Not too sure, but yeah, and that was around the
time that they were having ahuge outbreak in southern China
and also in India, which it wasincredibly detrimental to the
Indian population.
I think around like 12 millionpeople passed in that time.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
So question for both of you.
We stated that there's stillplague in the US and around the
world, but we don't see thesemassive epidemics.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
It is super treatable .
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Yeah, I was going to say plague antibiotics.
We have antibiotics.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
But I think also, people are less likely to be
exposed, like the cases that yousee are often in people who are
exposed to animals In the wildor in some way they're like more
at risk for it because of wherethey're working, if you're
working in, like, a more ruralarea or something like that.
Yeah, so I think how we livehas changed, yeah, and then we
have treatments, and when yousay the way we've lived, right
(33:38):
from the public health,perspective, the sewage system
that we developed right andthings like that, and also
probably containers for food, soyou're less likely to have.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
You don't have these rat amounts of other rat density
in cities.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
It's just we're not talking about new york city, but
new york city I have seen a rat, I kid you not, was the size of
a dachshund, it was massive andit was not afraid of people
Like it, just it looked at meand made eye contact and I was
like, oh it's horrifying.
Also, the size of roaches inNew York is unreal.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
That's fair.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah, but coming back to the public health aspect of
that, it's the way we changedour cities, the way we developed
our sewage systems and thingslike that.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
I think I read specifically after the huge
outbreak in India the last onethat that's why they started
designing their streets so muchwider too, because everything
used to be so narrow, everythingused to be so compact People
were.
When you think about a hugemetropolitan area, people are
just like packed into this tinylittle space, right.
So with wider streets, theythought more airflow and, just
in general, less chances ofcoming into contact with things.
(34:36):
I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
All right.
So do you think we need moreexample of deadly diseases that
can be transmitted from ourcompanion animals to us?
Speaker 5 (34:45):
I think we previously touched on a few of them.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Our good old friend M lepre mycobacterium lepre from
armadillos, our good old friendM lepre mycobacterium lepre from
armadillos you should not get,you should not have a pet
armadillo.
I feel like that also isillegal.
Or if it's not, it should be.
I agree, leave them alone.
Speaker 5 (35:03):
I know there's also like we talked about rabies.
Vaccinate your pets.
Vaccinate your pets, please.
Don't feed rabbit squirrels.
That's such a big thing.
Where I used to work, we usedto feed squirrels French fries
all the time.
Now, knowing what I know notgoing to do that, was it a fast
food place?
No, it wasn't.
It was another large chainedplace that worked with
(35:25):
specifically aquatic animals.
Ah, if you guys can imagine.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Not naming names.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
Not naming names, but yeah, it was a time.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
All right, but I think we definitely should send
the message that, with somereally easy steps, hand washing
and taking care of your pets andyour companion animals, right,
like we talked about vaccination, deworming, what else did?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
we talk about Flea and tick.
Flea and tick prevention rightand be an educated pet owner.
Ask questions about where thispet came from.
Has it been sick?
What has it been treated for inthe past?
Absolutely, those are importantquestions to ask, not only for
your health, but for theanimal's health and safety too.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
And just make sure you're cooking your food
properly, you're cleaning yourutensils and things that you do
use.
If you are immunocompromised orif you're pregnant, try not to
handle things that couldpotentially transmit diseases
easily.
But if you absolutely have todon that, ppe, put on those
gloves, put on a mask, just beextra careful.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
All right.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
Awesome.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
If you want to find more information, check out the
show notes.
I think a great source isalways CDC's website.
What's your experience,Christina?
What sources do you use foryour information?
Speaker 5 (36:36):
I can drop some sources for this podcast,
specifically about the thingsthat we did talk about, like the
big ones, but for the most part, cdc has a lot of really good
information.
I also really like the NIH statpearls.
It's really just a quicksummary of anything that you
want to search.
It's like a science vettedGoogle and yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I think if you're looking for exposure and like
disease info, cleveland Clinic,mayo Clinic always good sources.
If you want to like learn moreabout infections and just like
about how to keep yourself safeand all kinds of health stuff,
honestly beyond infections andfor the most part they relay
that information in a way that'sreally digestible for the
public population.
Yes, it's very, very good, easyreads and they're very
straightforward and they avoid alot of the jargon that, like
you know, nih might not.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
And I think we should also.
At the end of the show, weshould also mention the benefits
of having a pet.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
Oh my gosh.
Yes, that would be a 50 millionhour episode okay that is true,
that is true yes but just tolist a couple.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
And there's now studies, more and more studies
coming out that owning a pet isgood for lowering your blood
pressure.
It's good for psychiatricbenefits yeah, treat anxiety
right.
The tactile, just the tactilecomponent of petting your animal
this is helpful for some people.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
This you get the extra if you have a dog or a cat
that you take on a leash for awalk you get the exercise
exactly, yeah, and I think it'salso good in this day and age,
in such a digitallyinterconnected world, it can
also really help, I I think,with like loneliness, like with
people, like having somethingthat's physically there with
(38:17):
them instead of just existing ina digital realm.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yes, my Chewini was a COVID Chewini and it was the
best thing that's happened to me.
Yeah, I hope that doesn't soundsad, but I do.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
So much, yes, it's not sad, so many pets got
adopted during COVID.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
And then they got returned.
Oh really, oh no, okay, that'ssad, I would never return.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
That's a sad thing, no, but pets are just incredible
little creatures and they teachso much about responsibility
and they do so much for you,even though you think you're
doing so much for them.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
Yeah, even though you think you're doing so much for
them.
Yeah, I saw a video the otherday on a program in a prison.
I can't remember where it was.
Speaker 5 (38:57):
I did too.
Yeah, I've seen that.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Where, if you show good behavior, you could take
care of a cat.
Oh, a cat.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
I saw one about a training program for dogs.
So inmates are paired withthese dogs and they essentially
like train them to becomeservice animals or something
along those lines.
That's so cool, yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
That's also a super.
I just want to put a shout out.
That's a very rewarding thingto do.
My parents were involved in agroup it's in the North but
there's groups all over thecountry.
It was called Guiding Eyes forthe Blind and I was involved in
it in college and trainingservice dogs for people who are
visually impaired and it is soworthwhile and such a great way
to spend your time and it's areally good community of people.
If you're ever interested, justlook it up for stuff nearby you
(39:40):
.
But it's a really valuable wayto also give back to your
community and just spend timewith some really cool, very
smart very sweet animals.
Speaker 5 (39:47):
I recommend the service animals.
When I was working inveterinary medicine they were
just incredible and it's a wholecommunity of people behind them
just to make that work.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
And you also, like, don't necessarily have to have
one that's living with you.
If that's not a possibility,you can show up and just help
out with these groups becausethey have trainings and things
like that.
That's what I did in collegeand it was so rewarding.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
So highly recommend that to anyone who may not be
able to have a pet but wants tohave some animals in their life.
So maybe we should do anepisode here on the therapy dogs
that we have here in thehospital Therapy dogs at UTMB I
didn't know that A lot of ourprofessors have therapy dogs.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
They would come for the exams.
They would come for the exams.
I always was like oh stop, Ilove them, they're precious, but
yeah, animals are incredible.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
We just wanted to have this conversation to make
you guys aware of things to bemindful of.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
Yeah, exactly, so you all can live healthier, happier
lives with your pets.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
Exactly, Exactly.
So just be careful, but alsolove pets, love animals and love
everything that they can do foryou.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
Perfect ending.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Thanks for listening to the Infectious Science
podcast.
Be sure to hit subscribe andvisit infectiousscienceorg to
join the conversation, accessthe show notes and to sign up
for our newsletter and receiveour free materials.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
If you enjoyed this new episode of Infectious
Science, please leave us areview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify, and go ahead and sharethis episode with some of your
friends.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Also, don't hesitate to ask questions and tell us
what topics you'd like us tocover for future episodes.
To get in touch, drop a line inthe comments section or send us
a message on social media.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
So we'll see you next time for a new episode, and in
the meantime, stay happy stayhealthy, stay interested.
Thank you.
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