July 27, 2023 • 28 mins
Ever wondered how a renowned poet's death can lead to a twisty mystery entwined with the hidden world of lethal bacteria? Prepare to be enthralled as we join forces with Dr. Alfredo Torres, a renowned figure in Microbiology and Immunology, to unravel the curious puzzle surrounding the death of the celebrated Chilean poet and diplomat, Pablo Neruda. This episode swings the spotlight on Neruda's life and alleged assassination using the deadly clostridium botulism. Not just that, we take you through the history-laced alleys of Neruda's poetry, his diplomatic voyages, and his ties to the artistic community in Mexico and the socialist party in Chile.
Then, we switch gears to an in-depth exploration of clostridium botulinum— a soil bacteria of lethal proportions. Discover the unseen dangers lurking in your pantry, the scientific marvel behind Botox, and the deadly dance of botulism toxin with your cells. As we unravel these threads, we'll journey into the enigma of Neruda's death, connecting the dots between his alleged assassination and the chilling realities of botulism.
Before we sign off, we open the floor for you, our listeners. Share your insights, ask your questions, and engage with the nuances of this scientific mystery. Don't forget to subscribe, drop your reviews, and share the intrigue with your friends. Remember, curiosity doesn't kill the cat here; it fuels the mystery! Stay tuned, stay curious, and most importantly, stay healthy!
Thanks for listening to the Infectious Science Podcast. Be sure to visit infectiousscience.org to join the conversation, access the show notes, and don’t forget to sign up for our newsletter to receive our free materials.
We hope you enjoyed this new episode of Infectious Science, and if you did, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Please share this episode with others who may be interested in this topic!
Also, please don’t hesitate to ask questions or tell us which topics you want us to cover in future episodes. To get in touch, drop us a line in the comment section or send us a message on social media.
Instagram @Infectscipod
Facebook Infectious Science Podcast
See you next time for a new episode!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
This is a podcast about one health the idea that
the health of humans, animals,plants and the environment that
we all share are intrinsicallylinked.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical
Branch in the Galveston NationalLaboratory.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
This is infectious science.
We're enthusiasm for science.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're going to talk about how to make a science that
is contagious.
What do politics, poetry andpoison have in common?
On this episode of InfectiousScience, we're going to be
talking about a famous poet,pablo Neruda, and the wild
possibility that he may havebeen assassinated by political
rivals with a bacterium, of allthings.
(00:48):
So to help us understand alittle bit more about the
science, we've invited a specialguest speaker, dr Alfredo
Torres, who's an associateprovost here at UTMB and a
professor in the Department ofMicrobiology and Immunology.
It's a crazy episode we've gotfor you today, so stay tuned.
Hey everyone, this is Daniellehere, and I'm here with Connie,
(01:09):
and we invited Dr Alfredo Torres.
He was actually one of mymicrobiology teachers when I was
a grad student, and we're goingto talk about this really
interesting story about a poetnamed Pablo Neruda.
You probably know him.
He is a world-famous poet and aChilean diplomat, and there's
some recent evidence that he mayhave been murdered, and he may
(01:30):
have been murdered by abacterium.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about that.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
It was really kind of hitting the news last month,
and so we invited Dr Torres,because he's just got some
expertise in all kinds of areas,but we thought it'd be fun to
talk about one of theseinteresting science mysteries.
I guess we would call it.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, Dr Torres, you are a professor here at UTMB and
a provost right.
Associate provost yes, Associateprovost and you work with a
variety of pathogens, someBurldaria Bensimicoli, and we're
going to jump into that.
But first let's talk about thestory.
For those of you who don't knowwho was Pablo Neruda, he's a
really famous poet he's actuallyone of my favorite poets and he
(02:08):
was also a Chilean diplomat, sohe was really active in the
government at that time.
So here's the thing when thisall happened, everyone thought
he died of cancer, but heactually died at this time.
That makes us really suspicious.
So there's been some suspiciongoing on for a long time that he
may have been murdered.
He died two weeks after a majorcoup in Chile and it was a US
(02:29):
backed coup, so it's prettyscandalous.
And there was reports that hewas going in to get some
treatment at the hospital theday before he was supposed to be
fleeing the country and movingto Mexico and a doctor that he
didn't know came in and injectedsomething into his stomach and
then left, and he was fearful atthe time that he may have been
poisoned.
(02:49):
He didn't know what he wasinjected with and this was
something that was reported andcame out to light, I think like
10 years ago maybe.
So his body was exhumed and hasbeen undergoing testing ever
since to determine why he died.
Because it was determined itwas unlikely to be the cancer
that killed him.
And some recent evidences cometo light that a bacteria called
(03:12):
clostridium botulism wasdetected in his body, and it was
actually detected in his bones,which is really, really
interesting, because if it wassomething that he would have
been contaminated with in thesoil, it would have been on the
outside of his body, not on hisbones.
So this is really interesting.
So what do you think about this?
Do you think this is possible?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Well, thank you, connie.
Thank you for the invitation,but let me put you in
perspective what the mystery isall about this poet and this
interesting individual.
So the historical context isthis Chilean individual start
writing poems when he was 13years old, so it was an early
bloomer and he was writing poemsand he became really famous in
(03:53):
Chile when he was 16.
And then at that time is whenall this explosion of artists in
Latin America was happening andhe became associated with the
Chilean government and he has aprominent family in Chile where
he got educated and eventuallyhe became a diplomat.
So one of the interestingthings that he did is he was
(04:15):
struggling representing Chile indifferent countries.
For some time he lived in Spain.
He was the diplomat in Spain.
He also went to Paris as adiplomat, came back to Chile and
then he was sent to Mexico andwhen he was in Mexico he was
connected with the artist inMexico, somebody called Frida
Kahlo and Diego Rivera and CCaroz.
(04:37):
So that was the bloom ofartists in Mexico and he came
and became friend of all of them.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
A lot of people actually don't know this, but
Mexico was really huge at thattime and accepting a lot of
artists and poets from all overthe world that were fleeing
their own countries and itreally became this beautiful
cultural hub where so muchinteresting art and poetry was
kind of happening.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Correct.
So the interesting part is theartistic part of Pablo Neruda,
the ability of being a diplomatand travel, learn, knowing all
these people and get connectedwith these artists in Mexico.
That's the first part of theplot.
The second part of the plot isthat at that time, when he was
traveling and he was going toMexico, that's where the
(05:18):
Communist Party became reallyprominent, the Soviet Union, and
then the Communist Party becamean influence in Latin America,
in many countries, includingMexico.
So a lot of the artists at thattime in Mexico they were
communists.
And then Paulo Neruda gotinfluenced by Joseph Stalin and
he was following the philosophyof Joseph Stalin.
(05:40):
So in a way he got these ideasof socialism and supporting
socialism in different countries, including Chile.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And Chile was socialist right.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
At the time yeah, when he was going back exactly
the socialist party startedgetting in power and that's
where the transition fromdemocracy to socialism was
happening in Chile.
So this story okay, you havethe artistic part, and then you
have the diplomat part, and thenyou have the socialism
happening in Latin America.
So he come back.
(06:12):
At that time he was alreadyfamous for the poems that he was
writing and he was very wellconnected.
And then, since he was reallyprominent in Chile, he was
invited to be the president ofChile.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I didn't know any about that he was, and he
decided to say no, I don't wantto be the president of Chile,
I'm going to support thispresident, which is Salvador
Agenda.
And Salvador Agenda, which wasthe socialist party, became the
president and it's clear that hewas all the support from the
government to continue traveling, to continue doing all these
things.
So he got really attached tothe socialist party and Salvador
(06:46):
Agenda.
Then a dictator in Chile,augusto Pinochet, to a queue in
Chile.
So they removed the socialistparty and they start prosecuting
everybody that was associatedwith the socialist party,
including Pablo Neruda.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, yeah it was like thousands of people.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
So that's where the mystery becomes, because one of
the practices that this militarygovernment because it was a
military government was actuallydoing was eliminating people in
no concentration camps, but incamps that people went, they
were arrested and suddenly theydisappear and it was a belief
that the military government wasusing toxins to actually poison
(07:30):
some of these people,especially when they were
traveling to other countries,and they were sending people to
actually poison these people.
So that's where the mysteryhappens.
So Salvador Agenda thissituation and then he gets
diagnosed with prostate cancerand there was a terminal cancer.
And at the same time it's whenthe government is removed and
(07:51):
there's a prosecuting dispute.
So the big question is whetherhe died from terminal cancer,
from prostate cancer, or heactually was one of those that
was poisoned by the governmentof Augusto Pinochet.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right and it's kind of interesting because the
government of Pinochet, theykilled so many but they really
didn't want anyone to know,maybe, that they would have been
poisoning Pablo Neruda becausehe was such an international
figure and he was loved by somany people.
He was actually a NobelPrize-winning poet, correct,
correct.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
He received the Nobel Prize of Literature two years
before he died.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right, exactly, and a lot of people talk about him as
being one of the greatest poetsof all time.
One of the greatest writers wasreally well beloved
internationally, so this wouldhave brought a lot of
international attention to thiscoup.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I have a question on this story.
Okay, so this all happened along time ago, so when did they
exhume the body?
When did this come back intopopular concern or forensic
investigation into how he died?
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Okay, so let's add a little bit more of the
interesting components of thisstory.
Pablo Neruda went to thehospital because of treatment of
cancer and since he was soprominent, he even had a driver
and he was support people.
So the driver, basically, whenhe was interrogated about how he
died and why he was concernedabout why he died in the
hospital, he said that theyinject Pablo Neruda in the
(09:14):
hospital even against his willand something happened there and
then suddenly he died.
So the report in the hospitalindicated that he died because
cancer and the complicationsassociated with cancer, but this
driver always indicatedsomething else was happening.
So, one of the prosecutors inChile once the military
(09:35):
government was removed.
Eventually they opened the case, and this happened in 1973.
So it's not that far away.
So then the new prosecution andDA start investigating and they
opened the case.
They always say, well, we wantto know, because this is a
prominent figure, it's anational hero, want to make sure
that he was not killed.
(09:55):
So they opened theinvestigation, they exhumed the
body and they actually put ateam of international
researchers to try toinvestigate.
They took a couple of years toinvestigate, and I'm talking
about the 1999, the 2000s.
So at the time the technologyfor investigating this was not
there.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
So all these teams came back, presented the results
in Chile and when theyconcluded this, they couldn't
find any toxin, any drugs,anything in the body of Pablo
Neruda that indicated that hewas poisoned.
So you might think, ok, that'sthe end of the story and that's
the conclusion.
However, this story has neverended in Chile.
(10:35):
There's always this feelingthat something else was
happening.
So a couple of years ago, theinvestigation was reopened again
and a new team was invited toparticipate, one team led by
investigators in McMasterUniversity in Canada, where they
have developed this newtechnology that they actually
can sequence small fragments ofDNA in bodies or the remains of
(10:56):
a body and they can put togetherthese sequences and figure out
whether there's a bacteria orsomething that was causing the
infection.
The report came back a monthago and what they found is the
interesting part they found abacteria in the remaining teeth
of Pablo Neruda and turns out tobe Clostridium botulinum.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It's super interesting.
So first off, let's talk aboutClostridium.
We know it's bacteria.
What is it?
What would you say are the mostimportant things to know about
it?
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Yeah, so it's not a common bacteria that you hear,
but perhaps you do so.
This bacteria actually is arod-shaped bacteria and for
those microbiologists andfissionados, these bacteria are
an anhydrous.
So what that means is thebacteria doesn't like to live in
oxygen, so they like to have anenvironment where there is no
oxygen available.
So you may assume where that isthe place where the bacteria
(11:45):
likes to live.
Well, it lives in soil,underground, and the bacteria
lives in that environment wherethere is not a lot of oxygen
available, and they live withother nutrients and then they
survive in that and they formspores because they are
surviving the soil.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Because that's a really important thing.
That bacteria do is they formspores, and that allows them to
persist in the environment, evenin hostile conditions, for long
periods of time.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yes, some soil bacteria, not all.
They actually form spores.
The classical example is sandtrucks, basilica and traces.
They form spores because theyalso find in the soil.
So some bacteria can actuallyform this spore.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Is it only soil bacteria?
No, there is other bacteria.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
But mainly because if the environment in the soil or
environmental bacteria is harshto live in that environment, so
they develop these tools thatallows them to survive in harsh
environments.
So these two bacteria that Iput as examples, they form these
spores.
So you might think, well, ok,it's in the soil.
How is that important for allof us?
(12:45):
What turns out before we starteating food that has been
processed?
A lot of people were beingintoxicated and I don't know if
you have ever heard but there isa lot of kids potentially.
In one time, during the 1990s,that kids were intoxicated and
they were developing botulies.
That's why they were giving themhoney, and honey can be in the
(13:09):
environment and then actuallyspores can get into the honey
and if it's not properlysterilized then you can get the
spores, and the spores areclostridium bottom.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, that's a recommendation that continues
Even now.
Children under the age of onearen't supposed to have honey
just because they're at risk.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
And the other thing that perhaps you hear about this
bacteria, about botulism, is ifyou consume a lot of canned
food.
Canning is a mechanism that hasallowed us to preserve food for
a long time, but if people aredoing canning at home and they
don't know how to do this, canproperly, botulinum can actually
get into the food and survive,because if you once you put the
(13:47):
can, there is no oxygen.
So what perfect environment fora bacteria to that.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So when.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
I was growing up in Mexico.
I remember my mother tell usopen this can and immediately
when you open the can and youhear this noise like air coming
out, like a shh, immediately mymom say oh no, forget it, throw
it away, because there might bebotulism.
And that's true.
They produce gas and theremight not be a good idea to
consume anything that isinflated or damaged in one of
(14:15):
these.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, my mom was always that way about any cans
that were damaged that you mightwant to be leery of them.
And also there's a couple ofother things where I've heard of
people getting infected withblack tar heroin.
Actually, because of the waythe heroin is prepared, it can
create an environment that itcan grow.
So there was some outbreaks, Iwant to say in California, where
heroin users were actuallyinfecting themselves with
(14:37):
contaminated needles and thingslike that.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I haven't heard that one, but I'm no surprise Again
anything that is contaminated bythe environmental bacteria, and
if the environment containsclostridium, there's a high
chance that they can getcontaminated.
And if the environment is poorin oxygen.
That's a perfect environmentfor the bacteria to grow.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So is it the bacteria that hurts us, or is it the
toxin?
Speaker 4 (15:00):
That's also important to know.
So the toxin is the one thatkills you, right?
The toxin is the one that has amechanism to attack some of our
cells, the human cells, anddamage and cause this
neurological damage.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, it's a neurotoxin.
It's a neurotoxin, yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
However, in order for you to get intoxicated, you
actually have to consume thebacteria.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Oh, okay, so you can't be infected with just the
toxin.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Technically, it's harder to believe that the toxin
might be able to.
So the easiest way is toactually get the bacteria and
consume the bacteria, becausenormally the toxin is produced
and there is not only onebotulism toxin.
There are seven differentbotulin toxins.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
And they all are inside the bacteria.
So in order for the toxin to bereleased, the bacteria has to
be laced to be open, break itopen.
So if the bacteria goes insidea human host, we are reaching
oxygen, so the bacteria doesn'tlike to live in there, breaks
open and then release the toxin.
And that's when the toxin findtheir way to their target, which
in this case are neurons.
(16:00):
Right, neurons.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
So I've read that botulism toxin is one of the
most deadly substances on earth,right, which is pretty crazy
because it's also, as the namesuggests, it's also used in
Botox and it's also used as adrug to treat migraines, and
it's also a really effectivetreatment for people with
hyperhydrosis.
Hyperhydrosis is basically likeexcessive sweating and that can
(16:23):
either be distributedthroughout your body or it can
be focal, and if you havehyperhydrosis on your hands and
you inject in your hands, theykill the neurons, basically,
that are responsible forsweating, and the treatment
lasts for like four to sixmonths before the neurons grow
back.
So it's not only this terrible,horrible toxin.
It's actually useful in a lotof therapies as well.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Correct.
So the biological explanationof that is the following, and
I'm going to put in a mysterytype of way yeah.
So the toxin goes inside yourbody and is looking for these
particular cells.
It's not going to attack allthe cells.
It's looking for neurons orcells that are found in the
(17:03):
central nervous system.
Thank you, Central nervoussystem and because they have a
receptor.
They have a receptor calledNARS and these receptors on the
surface of these cells.
So what the toxin is going todo is going to bind to that
receptor and clip the receptor.
And what happened is thosecells are important and that
receptor is important to secreta component called acetylcholine
(17:24):
.
And acetylcholine is a moleculethat allows us to connect our
cells.
So the way we connect our ideasand our concepts through this
central nervous system isthrough impulses that go through
the cells, and thisacetylcholine is the bridge that
connects the cells.
So if you don't have thatacetylcholine being released and
in the bridge connecting thissignal, then the signal is
(17:44):
broken Right and the result isthat the muscles get paralyzed.
So the people die fromparalysis because the muscles
don't have the ability to startmoving, because they don't have
the nervous system telling themyou have to contract.
Thank you, you have to move,you have to do this.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
And this isn't just motor muscles right that are
controlled movement.
It's also the movement of yourlungs to inflate or deflate.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Any part of the body, any part of the body that is
controlled by the by theseneurons are affected.
Right so every.
Basically, it can go any place.
So you might think okay, youdon't need a lot, so you just
need to clip the receptor.
You need one molecule to clipthe receptor, and that's it.
The cell is not functionalanymore.
You cannot remake the receptorRight, so that's why you need
(18:26):
very tiny, tiny amounts of thetoxin.
However, now the interestingpart this is the first toxin
that has ever been used to treathuman disease.
You might think how is it?
possible that a toxin that killshumans now is used to treat
human disease?
Well, it turns out that theyfigure out that if you control
the amount of toxin and the wayyou deliver the toxin, then you
(18:48):
target these neurons that youare affecting and it's transient
, so they modify the toxins,they can inject it to a muscle
and then, for example, peoplethat has a uncontrolled
paralysis or movement that theycannot control, they injected in
the muscle and then thisprevents this.
No, control muscle movement andthen therefore, they can
(19:10):
control it.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
This is interesting.
So would these have some kindof an impact on Parkinson's or,
like Alzheimer's, you mentionedthe neurons that control how you
breathe and how your lungs workand everything we know.
Botulism is used in Botox andyou're talking about paralyzing
muscles and then, on the flipside the positive side, being
(19:32):
able to help somebody withuncontrolled movements.
So is there active researchwith botulism right now as a
therapy for any of these typesof diseases?
Speaker 4 (19:43):
So the first use of this toxin was developing a.
You want to get a medication,you want to call it that called
oculinum and that oculinum wasto try to treat estrovism.
So crossing eyes of kids iscalled estrovism and so that's
an uncontrolled movement of themuscle.
So they start testing thistoxin and they realize that
(20:04):
affecting the muscle, then kidswill not start crossing the eyes
anymore and that developed intofinding out that accidentally
you can actually inject thetoxin in other parts of the face
and turns out that the wrinklesdisappear and they start
looking for disappear.
So instead of calling oculinum,which I don't think is a brand
(20:24):
to sell anything, they call itBotox and they start selling
Botox.
And then the cosmeticapplication of this toxin is
astronomical, the millions ofdollars that men and female and
everybody use it to removewrinkles.
Well, turns out that people hasbeen doing investigation and
they realize that people usingBotox they start having less
(20:45):
migraines.
So one of the things now thatthey are trying to use is to
Botox to treat migrants andobviously anything that has to
do with muscle contraction thatyou can control now is being
used.
So back pain, for example, thatis being treated by Botox or
some other names that they usenow for the Botox derivatives
(21:07):
that they have.
Perhaps some neurologicalproblems that you might be
experiencing or somebody mightbe experiencing might be also be
treated by this type oftreatment.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Interesting.
So what do you think the bestway is for us to protect
ourselves from accidentallygetting infected with botulism,
with clasrenium botulism?
That's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
I guess my mother was always true.
She was right about the advicewhen she told you do not
anything that is a can isdamaged, and plus, she never
encouraged us to eat anything incanned food.
You always like to fresh things, so you just need to be careful
.
Right, there are some areaswhere they might be more risky
(21:49):
to consume a clasreniumbotulinum, and again that you
try to prevent that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Right, and I think it's also popping up now with
people who are doing a lot oftheir own fermentation.
I think I've also seen that inthe news too.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yeah, exactly so.
We're in Texas, so it's verycommon to start driving around
the state and then you go tothese pop and mom shops and they
have their own brand of canningstrawberries or preserves or
you name it.
Yeah, you never know if theyare.
The process of canning thatthey are using is the perfect
one.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
I have had my surprises.
Sometimes when you buy these inthese places and you go home,
you open it and some extraorganisms are growing in there,
if you want to call it like thatthey should not be there, so
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
You're right.
So what are the symptoms then?
What if you had accidentallyconsumed?
Speaker 4 (22:39):
So it's definitely a terrible death because it's
paralysis.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
And describing how the toxin works indicates that
as soon as they found a neuronor a cell that is associated in
the central nervous system,basically they will cleave and
then you will not have thatfunction back Again.
So that means basically totalparalysis.
You start asphyxiation becauseyou cannot breathe, because your
(23:04):
muscles in the lungs will notmove, and then you die from
paralysis.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So does that happen right away?
Speaker 4 (23:10):
It happens within 12 to 13 hours, again depending on
the dose.
Normally, if you have beenintoxicated by the bacteria, it
takes time for the bacteria tostart lysine and then releasing
the toxin.
If you think about somebodythat is doing purposely to try
to inject the toxin, the effectwill be immediate because the
(23:31):
toxin, once it goes in the bloodand then find neurons, that's
it.
That's the end of the game.
But normally a naturalinfection takes about 12 to 13
hours, depending, again, theamount of toxin that you get.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Are there any treatments?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yes, absolutely.
So what is known is you canactually have antibodies, that
monoclonal antibodies thatpotentially bind the toxin and
prevent the toxin.
One again interesting factabout people using Botox is
after so many times that you useBotox, you develop antibodies
against the botulinum toxin.
Oh, really so it's not goodanymore, then you can have an
(24:09):
immune reaction against theBotox.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
So those ladies or men that are using Botox just to
look good, that's very risky.
You have to have a physicianthat actually supervises the use
of this treatment so you canhave it.
But think about the window ofopportunity that you have.
So if you get intoxicated andthen you wait 12 hours and just
start developing symptoms, bythe time you go to the hospital
(24:34):
they diagnose you and they tryto treat you, it's probably too
late, because once the toxinstarts leaving the receptors
that's point of no return.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, ah, goodness, gracious, all right.
Well, I think this was a reallyinteresting story.
Thank you so much for helpingus.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I have a question though.
So what's going to happen now?
So, going back to the Chileanpoet and the fact that there's
this mystery, is there any newsabout where this is headed?
Speaker 4 (25:02):
That's an excellent question.
So let's go back to the mysterypart of the story.
So what happened now with theinformation that was released?
So, trying to summarize what Itold you, what they found was
DNA pieces in the teeth of PabloNeruda's body, or the remains
of the body that they have thatlook like clostridium botulinum.
(25:25):
So you might think well, was hepurposely intoxicated giving
them?
Or somebody gave him theclostridium botulinum bacteria,
or he accidentally consumed afood product that was
contaminated with the bacteria?
That's one option.
Option two is that clearly hewas poisoned.
(25:47):
And now the question is what isgoing to happen next?
Are they going to reallyinvestigate Because they cannot
find the toxin?
They already did the screen fortoxins.
The toxin is not there, so whatelse can they be?
So there's two things here.
One is obviously the politicalaspect and how a national hero
was killed, so that's Chileanswill decide what is the end of
(26:09):
the story.
And the other part is theinteresting part, the scientific
part.
What other tools can theydevelop to actually further
investigate these type of things?
Because again, there is an areavery interesting called
microbial paleontology, whichthey are actually using these
new technologies to actually tryto investigate, for example,
how people die from colonization, from the Spaniards, or from
(26:34):
the Portuguese, or from theAmericans.
And just to give you a clue, inMexico and in Central America,
a lot of the indigenous peoplethat die that they thought they
were, they died from plague thatwas brought by the Spaniards.
Turns out there was no plague,it was Salmonella.
They died from typhoid.
They died from typhoid becausethey didn't know that Salmonella
(26:56):
exists in the Americancontinent.
So it was brought.
Spaniards were having all thesetyphoid fever infections,
passed it to the people that hadnever seen this bacteria and
wiped millions of indigenouspeople.
So how do they figure this out?
Using these new technologies ofsequencing that they are
developing.
So that's a scientificcomponent that I think is very
interesting that we can do.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, it's super interesting and this whole story
has put a human face onbotulism botulism poisoning and
seen the mystery shows on TVwhere it's the crime, it's the
culprit in the crime.
But this is a great story,danielle, thanks for bringing it
to our attention, and it'sgreat that Dr Torres knew so
much about all the history ofthe Chilean poet, who traveled
(27:43):
and was a diplomat and may havehad an early demise at
somebody's evil hands.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, so I'll definitely keep my eye out on
the news and we'll let everyoneknow if any other new
developments come up.
So thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening to theInfectious Science podcast.
Be sure to hit subscribe andvisit infectiousscienceorg to
join the conversation, accessthe show notes and to sign up
for our newsletter and receiveour free materials.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
If you enjoyed this new episode of Infectious
Science, please leave us areview on Apple Podcasts at
Spotify and go ahead and sharethis episode with some of your
friends.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Also, don't hesitate to ask questions and tell us
what topics you'd like us tocover for future episodes.
To get in touch, drop a line inthe comments section or send us
a message on social media.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So we'll see you next time for a new episode, and in
the meantime, stay happy stayhealthy, stay interested.
This is a podcast about one health the idea that
the health of humans, animals,plants and the environment that
we all share are intrinsicallylinked.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical
Branch in the Galveston NationalLaboratory.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
This is infectious science.
We're enthusiasm for science.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
We're going to talk about how to make a science that
is contagious.
What do politics, poetry andpoison have in common?
On this episode of InfectiousScience, we're going to be
talking about a famous poet,pablo Neruda, and the wild
possibility that he may havebeen assassinated by political
rivals with a bacterium, of allthings.
(00:48):
So to help us understand alittle bit more about the
science, we've invited a specialguest speaker, dr Alfredo
Torres, who's an associateprovost here at UTMB and a
professor in the Department ofMicrobiology and Immunology.
It's a crazy episode we've gotfor you today, so stay tuned.
Hey everyone, this is Daniellehere, and I'm here with Connie,
(01:09):
and we invited Dr Alfredo Torres.
He was actually one of mymicrobiology teachers when I was
a grad student, and we're goingto talk about this really
interesting story about a poetnamed Pablo Neruda.
You probably know him.
He is a world-famous poet and aChilean diplomat, and there's
some recent evidence that he mayhave been murdered, and he may
(01:30):
have been murdered by abacterium.
So we're going to talk a littlebit about that.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
It was really kind of hitting the news last month,
and so we invited Dr Torres,because he's just got some
expertise in all kinds of areas,but we thought it'd be fun to
talk about one of theseinteresting science mysteries.
I guess we would call it.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, Dr Torres, you are a professor here at UTMB and
a provost right.
Associate provost yes, Associateprovost and you work with a
variety of pathogens, someBurldaria Bensimicoli, and we're
going to jump into that.
But first let's talk about thestory.
For those of you who don't knowwho was Pablo Neruda, he's a
really famous poet he's actuallyone of my favorite poets and he
(02:08):
was also a Chilean diplomat, sohe was really active in the
government at that time.
So here's the thing when thisall happened, everyone thought
he died of cancer, but heactually died at this time.
That makes us really suspicious.
So there's been some suspiciongoing on for a long time that he
may have been murdered.
He died two weeks after a majorcoup in Chile and it was a US
(02:29):
backed coup, so it's prettyscandalous.
And there was reports that hewas going in to get some
treatment at the hospital theday before he was supposed to be
fleeing the country and movingto Mexico and a doctor that he
didn't know came in and injectedsomething into his stomach and
then left, and he was fearful atthe time that he may have been
poisoned.
(02:49):
He didn't know what he wasinjected with and this was
something that was reported andcame out to light, I think like
10 years ago maybe.
So his body was exhumed and hasbeen undergoing testing ever
since to determine why he died.
Because it was determined itwas unlikely to be the cancer
that killed him.
And some recent evidences cometo light that a bacteria called
(03:12):
clostridium botulism wasdetected in his body, and it was
actually detected in his bones,which is really, really
interesting, because if it wassomething that he would have
been contaminated with in thesoil, it would have been on the
outside of his body, not on hisbones.
So this is really interesting.
So what do you think about this?
Do you think this is possible?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Well, thank you, connie.
Thank you for the invitation,but let me put you in
perspective what the mystery isall about this poet and this
interesting individual.
So the historical context isthis Chilean individual start
writing poems when he was 13years old, so it was an early
bloomer and he was writing poemsand he became really famous in
(03:53):
Chile when he was 16.
And then at that time is whenall this explosion of artists in
Latin America was happening andhe became associated with the
Chilean government and he has aprominent family in Chile where
he got educated and eventuallyhe became a diplomat.
So one of the interestingthings that he did is he was
(04:15):
struggling representing Chile indifferent countries.
For some time he lived in Spain.
He was the diplomat in Spain.
He also went to Paris as adiplomat, came back to Chile and
then he was sent to Mexico andwhen he was in Mexico he was
connected with the artist inMexico, somebody called Frida
Kahlo and Diego Rivera and CCaroz.
(04:37):
So that was the bloom ofartists in Mexico and he came
and became friend of all of them.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
A lot of people actually don't know this, but
Mexico was really huge at thattime and accepting a lot of
artists and poets from all overthe world that were fleeing
their own countries and itreally became this beautiful
cultural hub where so muchinteresting art and poetry was
kind of happening.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Correct.
So the interesting part is theartistic part of Pablo Neruda,
the ability of being a diplomatand travel, learn, knowing all
these people and get connectedwith these artists in Mexico.
That's the first part of theplot.
The second part of the plot isthat at that time, when he was
traveling and he was going toMexico, that's where the
(05:18):
Communist Party became reallyprominent, the Soviet Union, and
then the Communist Party becamean influence in Latin America,
in many countries, includingMexico.
So a lot of the artists at thattime in Mexico they were
communists.
And then Paulo Neruda gotinfluenced by Joseph Stalin and
he was following the philosophyof Joseph Stalin.
(05:40):
So in a way he got these ideasof socialism and supporting
socialism in different countries, including Chile.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And Chile was socialist right.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
At the time yeah, when he was going back exactly
the socialist party startedgetting in power and that's
where the transition fromdemocracy to socialism was
happening in Chile.
So this story okay, you havethe artistic part, and then you
have the diplomat part, and thenyou have the socialism
happening in Latin America.
So he come back.
(06:12):
At that time he was alreadyfamous for the poems that he was
writing and he was very wellconnected.
And then, since he was reallyprominent in Chile, he was
invited to be the president ofChile.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
I didn't know any about that he was, and he
decided to say no, I don't wantto be the president of Chile,
I'm going to support thispresident, which is Salvador
Agenda.
And Salvador Agenda, which wasthe socialist party, became the
president and it's clear that hewas all the support from the
government to continue traveling, to continue doing all these
things.
So he got really attached tothe socialist party and Salvador
(06:46):
Agenda.
Then a dictator in Chile,augusto Pinochet, to a queue in
Chile.
So they removed the socialistparty and they start prosecuting
everybody that was associatedwith the socialist party,
including Pablo Neruda.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, yeah it was like thousands of people.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
So that's where the mystery becomes, because one of
the practices that this militarygovernment because it was a
military government was actuallydoing was eliminating people in
no concentration camps, but incamps that people went, they
were arrested and suddenly theydisappear and it was a belief
that the military government wasusing toxins to actually poison
(07:30):
some of these people,especially when they were
traveling to other countries,and they were sending people to
actually poison these people.
So that's where the mysteryhappens.
So Salvador Agenda thissituation and then he gets
diagnosed with prostate cancerand there was a terminal cancer.
And at the same time it's whenthe government is removed and
(07:51):
there's a prosecuting dispute.
So the big question is whetherhe died from terminal cancer,
from prostate cancer, or heactually was one of those that
was poisoned by the governmentof Augusto Pinochet.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right and it's kind of interesting because the
government of Pinochet, theykilled so many but they really
didn't want anyone to know,maybe, that they would have been
poisoning Pablo Neruda becausehe was such an international
figure and he was loved by somany people.
He was actually a NobelPrize-winning poet, correct,
correct.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
He received the Nobel Prize of Literature two years
before he died.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right, exactly, and a lot of people talk about him as
being one of the greatest poetsof all time.
One of the greatest writers wasreally well beloved
internationally, so this wouldhave brought a lot of
international attention to thiscoup.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
I have a question on this story.
Okay, so this all happened along time ago, so when did they
exhume the body?
When did this come back intopopular concern or forensic
investigation into how he died?
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Okay, so let's add a little bit more of the
interesting components of thisstory.
Pablo Neruda went to thehospital because of treatment of
cancer and since he was soprominent, he even had a driver
and he was support people.
So the driver, basically, whenhe was interrogated about how he
died and why he was concernedabout why he died in the
hospital, he said that theyinject Pablo Neruda in the
(09:14):
hospital even against his willand something happened there and
then suddenly he died.
So the report in the hospitalindicated that he died because
cancer and the complicationsassociated with cancer, but this
driver always indicatedsomething else was happening.
So, one of the prosecutors inChile once the military
(09:35):
government was removed.
Eventually they opened the case, and this happened in 1973.
So it's not that far away.
So then the new prosecution andDA start investigating and they
opened the case.
They always say, well, we wantto know, because this is a
prominent figure, it's anational hero, want to make sure
that he was not killed.
(09:55):
So they opened theinvestigation, they exhumed the
body and they actually put ateam of international
researchers to try toinvestigate.
They took a couple of years toinvestigate, and I'm talking
about the 1999, the 2000s.
So at the time the technologyfor investigating this was not
there.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
So all these teams came back, presented the results
in Chile and when theyconcluded this, they couldn't
find any toxin, any drugs,anything in the body of Pablo
Neruda that indicated that hewas poisoned.
So you might think, ok, that'sthe end of the story and that's
the conclusion.
However, this story has neverended in Chile.
(10:35):
There's always this feelingthat something else was
happening.
So a couple of years ago, theinvestigation was reopened again
and a new team was invited toparticipate, one team led by
investigators in McMasterUniversity in Canada, where they
have developed this newtechnology that they actually
can sequence small fragments ofDNA in bodies or the remains of
(10:56):
a body and they can put togetherthese sequences and figure out
whether there's a bacteria orsomething that was causing the
infection.
The report came back a monthago and what they found is the
interesting part they found abacteria in the remaining teeth
of Pablo Neruda and turns out tobe Clostridium botulinum.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It's super interesting.
So first off, let's talk aboutClostridium.
We know it's bacteria.
What is it?
What would you say are the mostimportant things to know about
it?
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Yeah, so it's not a common bacteria that you hear,
but perhaps you do so.
This bacteria actually is arod-shaped bacteria and for
those microbiologists andfissionados, these bacteria are
an anhydrous.
So what that means is thebacteria doesn't like to live in
oxygen, so they like to have anenvironment where there is no
oxygen available.
So you may assume where that isthe place where the bacteria
(11:45):
likes to live.
Well, it lives in soil,underground, and the bacteria
lives in that environment wherethere is not a lot of oxygen
available, and they live withother nutrients and then they
survive in that and they formspores because they are
surviving the soil.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Because that's a really important thing.
That bacteria do is they formspores, and that allows them to
persist in the environment, evenin hostile conditions, for long
periods of time.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yes, some soil bacteria, not all.
They actually form spores.
The classical example is sandtrucks, basilica and traces.
They form spores because theyalso find in the soil.
So some bacteria can actuallyform this spore.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Is it only soil bacteria?
No, there is other bacteria.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
But mainly because if the environment in the soil or
environmental bacteria is harshto live in that environment, so
they develop these tools thatallows them to survive in harsh
environments.
So these two bacteria that Iput as examples, they form these
spores.
So you might think, well, ok,it's in the soil.
How is that important for allof us?
(12:45):
What turns out before we starteating food that has been
processed?
A lot of people were beingintoxicated and I don't know if
you have ever heard but there isa lot of kids potentially.
In one time, during the 1990s,that kids were intoxicated and
they were developing botulies.
That's why they were giving themhoney, and honey can be in the
(13:09):
environment and then actuallyspores can get into the honey
and if it's not properlysterilized then you can get the
spores, and the spores areclostridium bottom.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, that's a recommendation that continues
Even now.
Children under the age of onearen't supposed to have honey
just because they're at risk.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
And the other thing that perhaps you hear about this
bacteria, about botulism, is ifyou consume a lot of canned
food.
Canning is a mechanism that hasallowed us to preserve food for
a long time, but if people aredoing canning at home and they
don't know how to do this, canproperly, botulinum can actually
get into the food and survive,because if you once you put the
(13:47):
can, there is no oxygen.
So what perfect environment fora bacteria to that.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So when.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
I was growing up in Mexico.
I remember my mother tell usopen this can and immediately
when you open the can and youhear this noise like air coming
out, like a shh, immediately mymom say oh no, forget it, throw
it away, because there might bebotulism.
And that's true.
They produce gas and theremight not be a good idea to
consume anything that isinflated or damaged in one of
(14:15):
these.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, my mom was always that way about any cans
that were damaged that you mightwant to be leery of them.
And also there's a couple ofother things where I've heard of
people getting infected withblack tar heroin.
Actually, because of the waythe heroin is prepared, it can
create an environment that itcan grow.
So there was some outbreaks, Iwant to say in California, where
heroin users were actuallyinfecting themselves with
(14:37):
contaminated needles and thingslike that.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I haven't heard that one, but I'm no surprise Again
anything that is contaminated bythe environmental bacteria, and
if the environment containsclostridium, there's a high
chance that they can getcontaminated.
And if the environment is poorin oxygen.
That's a perfect environmentfor the bacteria to grow.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
So is it the bacteria that hurts us, or is it the
toxin?
Speaker 4 (15:00):
That's also important to know.
So the toxin is the one thatkills you, right?
The toxin is the one that has amechanism to attack some of our
cells, the human cells, anddamage and cause this
neurological damage.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, it's a neurotoxin.
It's a neurotoxin, yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
However, in order for you to get intoxicated, you
actually have to consume thebacteria.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Oh, okay, so you can't be infected with just the
toxin.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Technically, it's harder to believe that the toxin
might be able to.
So the easiest way is toactually get the bacteria and
consume the bacteria, becausenormally the toxin is produced
and there is not only onebotulism toxin.
There are seven differentbotulin toxins.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
And they all are inside the bacteria.
So in order for the toxin to bereleased, the bacteria has to
be laced to be open, break itopen.
So if the bacteria goes insidea human host, we are reaching
oxygen, so the bacteria doesn'tlike to live in there, breaks
open and then release the toxin.
And that's when the toxin findtheir way to their target, which
in this case are neurons.
(16:00):
Right, neurons.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
So I've read that botulism toxin is one of the
most deadly substances on earth,right, which is pretty crazy
because it's also, as the namesuggests, it's also used in
Botox and it's also used as adrug to treat migraines, and
it's also a really effectivetreatment for people with
hyperhydrosis.
Hyperhydrosis is basically likeexcessive sweating and that can
(16:23):
either be distributedthroughout your body or it can
be focal, and if you havehyperhydrosis on your hands and
you inject in your hands, theykill the neurons, basically,
that are responsible forsweating, and the treatment
lasts for like four to sixmonths before the neurons grow
back.
So it's not only this terrible,horrible toxin.
It's actually useful in a lotof therapies as well.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Correct.
So the biological explanationof that is the following, and
I'm going to put in a mysterytype of way yeah.
So the toxin goes inside yourbody and is looking for these
particular cells.
It's not going to attack allthe cells.
It's looking for neurons orcells that are found in the
(17:03):
central nervous system.
Thank you, Central nervoussystem and because they have a
receptor.
They have a receptor calledNARS and these receptors on the
surface of these cells.
So what the toxin is going todo is going to bind to that
receptor and clip the receptor.
And what happened is thosecells are important and that
receptor is important to secreta component called acetylcholine
(17:24):
.
And acetylcholine is a moleculethat allows us to connect our
cells.
So the way we connect our ideasand our concepts through this
central nervous system isthrough impulses that go through
the cells, and thisacetylcholine is the bridge that
connects the cells.
So if you don't have thatacetylcholine being released and
in the bridge connecting thissignal, then the signal is
(17:44):
broken Right and the result isthat the muscles get paralyzed.
So the people die fromparalysis because the muscles
don't have the ability to startmoving, because they don't have
the nervous system telling themyou have to contract.
Thank you, you have to move,you have to do this.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
And this isn't just motor muscles right that are
controlled movement.
It's also the movement of yourlungs to inflate or deflate.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Any part of the body, any part of the body that is
controlled by the by theseneurons are affected.
Right so every.
Basically, it can go any place.
So you might think okay, youdon't need a lot, so you just
need to clip the receptor.
You need one molecule to clipthe receptor, and that's it.
The cell is not functionalanymore.
You cannot remake the receptorRight, so that's why you need
(18:26):
very tiny, tiny amounts of thetoxin.
However, now the interestingpart this is the first toxin
that has ever been used to treathuman disease.
You might think how is it?
possible that a toxin that killshumans now is used to treat
human disease?
Well, it turns out that theyfigure out that if you control
the amount of toxin and the wayyou deliver the toxin, then you
(18:48):
target these neurons that youare affecting and it's transient
, so they modify the toxins,they can inject it to a muscle
and then, for example, peoplethat has a uncontrolled
paralysis or movement that theycannot control, they injected in
the muscle and then thisprevents this.
No, control muscle movement andthen therefore, they can
(19:10):
control it.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
This is interesting.
So would these have some kindof an impact on Parkinson's or,
like Alzheimer's, you mentionedthe neurons that control how you
breathe and how your lungs workand everything we know.
Botulism is used in Botox andyou're talking about paralyzing
muscles and then, on the flipside the positive side, being
(19:32):
able to help somebody withuncontrolled movements.
So is there active researchwith botulism right now as a
therapy for any of these typesof diseases?
Speaker 4 (19:43):
So the first use of this toxin was developing a.
You want to get a medication,you want to call it that called
oculinum and that oculinum wasto try to treat estrovism.
So crossing eyes of kids iscalled estrovism and so that's
an uncontrolled movement of themuscle.
So they start testing thistoxin and they realize that
(20:04):
affecting the muscle, then kidswill not start crossing the eyes
anymore and that developed intofinding out that accidentally
you can actually inject thetoxin in other parts of the face
and turns out that the wrinklesdisappear and they start
looking for disappear.
So instead of calling oculinum,which I don't think is a brand
(20:24):
to sell anything, they call itBotox and they start selling
Botox.
And then the cosmeticapplication of this toxin is
astronomical, the millions ofdollars that men and female and
everybody use it to removewrinkles.
Well, turns out that people hasbeen doing investigation and
they realize that people usingBotox they start having less
(20:45):
migraines.
So one of the things now thatthey are trying to use is to
Botox to treat migrants andobviously anything that has to
do with muscle contraction thatyou can control now is being
used.
So back pain, for example, thatis being treated by Botox or
some other names that they usenow for the Botox derivatives
(21:07):
that they have.
Perhaps some neurologicalproblems that you might be
experiencing or somebody mightbe experiencing might be also be
treated by this type oftreatment.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Interesting.
So what do you think the bestway is for us to protect
ourselves from accidentallygetting infected with botulism,
with clasrenium botulism?
That's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
I guess my mother was always true.
She was right about the advicewhen she told you do not
anything that is a can isdamaged, and plus, she never
encouraged us to eat anything incanned food.
You always like to fresh things, so you just need to be careful
.
Right, there are some areaswhere they might be more risky
(21:49):
to consume a clasreniumbotulinum, and again that you
try to prevent that.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Right, and I think it's also popping up now with
people who are doing a lot oftheir own fermentation.
I think I've also seen that inthe news too.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Yeah, exactly so.
We're in Texas, so it's verycommon to start driving around
the state and then you go tothese pop and mom shops and they
have their own brand of canningstrawberries or preserves or
you name it.
Yeah, you never know if theyare.
The process of canning thatthey are using is the perfect
one.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
I have had my surprises.
Sometimes when you buy these inthese places and you go home,
you open it and some extraorganisms are growing in there,
if you want to call it like thatthey should not be there, so
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
You're right.
So what are the symptoms then?
What if you had accidentallyconsumed?
Speaker 4 (22:39):
So it's definitely a terrible death because it's
paralysis.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (22:44):
And describing how the toxin works indicates that
as soon as they found a neuronor a cell that is associated in
the central nervous system,basically they will cleave and
then you will not have thatfunction back Again.
So that means basically totalparalysis.
You start asphyxiation becauseyou cannot breathe, because your
(23:04):
muscles in the lungs will notmove, and then you die from
paralysis.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So does that happen right away?
Speaker 4 (23:10):
It happens within 12 to 13 hours, again depending on
the dose.
Normally, if you have beenintoxicated by the bacteria, it
takes time for the bacteria tostart lysine and then releasing
the toxin.
If you think about somebodythat is doing purposely to try
to inject the toxin, the effectwill be immediate because the
(23:31):
toxin, once it goes in the bloodand then find neurons, that's
it.
That's the end of the game.
But normally a naturalinfection takes about 12 to 13
hours, depending, again, theamount of toxin that you get.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Are there any treatments?
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yes, absolutely.
So what is known is you canactually have antibodies, that
monoclonal antibodies thatpotentially bind the toxin and
prevent the toxin.
One again interesting factabout people using Botox is
after so many times that you useBotox, you develop antibodies
against the botulinum toxin.
Oh, really so it's not goodanymore, then you can have an
(24:09):
immune reaction against theBotox.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Right.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
So those ladies or men that are using Botox just to
look good, that's very risky.
You have to have a physicianthat actually supervises the use
of this treatment so you canhave it.
But think about the window ofopportunity that you have.
So if you get intoxicated andthen you wait 12 hours and just
start developing symptoms, bythe time you go to the hospital
(24:34):
they diagnose you and they tryto treat you, it's probably too
late, because once the toxinstarts leaving the receptors
that's point of no return.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Yeah, ah, goodness, gracious, all right.
Well, I think this was a reallyinteresting story.
Thank you so much for helpingus.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
I have a question though.
So what's going to happen now?
So, going back to the Chileanpoet and the fact that there's
this mystery, is there any newsabout where this is headed?
Speaker 4 (25:02):
That's an excellent question.
So let's go back to the mysterypart of the story.
So what happened now with theinformation that was released?
So, trying to summarize what Itold you, what they found was
DNA pieces in the teeth of PabloNeruda's body, or the remains
of the body that they have thatlook like clostridium botulinum.
(25:25):
So you might think well, was hepurposely intoxicated giving
them?
Or somebody gave him theclostridium botulinum bacteria,
or he accidentally consumed afood product that was
contaminated with the bacteria?
That's one option.
Option two is that clearly hewas poisoned.
(25:47):
And now the question is what isgoing to happen next?
Are they going to reallyinvestigate Because they cannot
find the toxin?
They already did the screen fortoxins.
The toxin is not there, so whatelse can they be?
So there's two things here.
One is obviously the politicalaspect and how a national hero
was killed, so that's Chileanswill decide what is the end of
(26:09):
the story.
And the other part is theinteresting part, the scientific
part.
What other tools can theydevelop to actually further
investigate these type of things?
Because again, there is an areavery interesting called
microbial paleontology, whichthey are actually using these
new technologies to actually tryto investigate, for example,
how people die from colonization, from the Spaniards, or from
(26:34):
the Portuguese, or from theAmericans.
And just to give you a clue, inMexico and in Central America,
a lot of the indigenous peoplethat die that they thought they
were, they died from plague thatwas brought by the Spaniards.
Turns out there was no plague,it was Salmonella.
They died from typhoid.
They died from typhoid becausethey didn't know that Salmonella
(26:56):
exists in the Americancontinent.
So it was brought.
Spaniards were having all thesetyphoid fever infections,
passed it to the people that hadnever seen this bacteria and
wiped millions of indigenouspeople.
So how do they figure this out?
Using these new technologies ofsequencing that they are
developing.
So that's a scientificcomponent that I think is very
interesting that we can do.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, it's super interesting and this whole story
has put a human face onbotulism botulism poisoning and
seen the mystery shows on TVwhere it's the crime, it's the
culprit in the crime.
But this is a great story,danielle, thanks for bringing it
to our attention, and it'sgreat that Dr Torres knew so
much about all the history ofthe Chilean poet, who traveled
(27:43):
and was a diplomat and may havehad an early demise at
somebody's evil hands.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, so I'll definitely keep my eye out on
the news and we'll let everyoneknow if any other new
developments come up.
So thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening to theInfectious Science podcast.
Be sure to hit subscribe andvisit infectiousscienceorg to
join the conversation, accessthe show notes and to sign up
for our newsletter and receiveour free materials.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
If you enjoyed this new episode of Infectious
Science, please leave us areview on Apple Podcasts at
Spotify and go ahead and sharethis episode with some of your
friends.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Also, don't hesitate to ask questions and tell us
what topics you'd like us tocover for future episodes.
To get in touch, drop a line inthe comments section or send us
a message on social media.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So we'll see you next time for a new episode, and in
the meantime, stay happy stayhealthy, stay interested.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.