February 28, 2025 • 45 mins
Unravel the intricate stories behind ancient mummies and their connection to various pathogens in our latest podcast episode of this season. This engaging discussion leads listeners through a fascinating exploration of how the health of past civilizations reveals untold secrets about diseases that shaped their societies. We explore the different types of mummies—both anthropogenic and spontaneous—and what their preservation tells us about historical health crises.
From the chilling preservation of bog bodies to the revered Egyptian mummies, we investigate how these artifacts serve as vital sources of knowledge about ancient diseases like malaria, leishmaniasis, and Chagas disease. As we draw connections between these historical pathogens and contemporary health issues, we raise intriguing discussions about how climate change and globalization may affect disease patterns today.
Our conversation is enriched by studies revealing the presence of ancient pathogens in notable figures such as Otzi the Iceman and the Medici mummies. Each discovery unravels a layer of mystery surrounding how societies dealt with illness, healthcare practices, and even the beliefs connected to death and preservation.
Join us as we dive deep into the fascinating interplay between history, culture, and disease. By understanding the past, we illuminate paths for the future. Subscribe now and participate in the conversation about these vital links in our health narrative! Spread the word, leave a review, and let us know what ancient topics inspire your curiosity for future episodes.
Quick Correction: Lyme does not need colder climates.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a podcast about One Health the idea that
the health of humans, animals,plants and the environment that
we all share are intrinsicallylinked.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical
Branch and the GalvestonNational Laboratory.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
This is Infectious Science.
Where enthusiasm for science?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
is contagious.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
All right, Hello everyone.
Welcome back to another episodeof Infectious Science.
Hello, hello.
We are very excited to be herewith you today.
It's just Christina and I, andwe are going to talk about
mummies and pathogens.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I'm so excited for this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yes, I think it's gonna be a good one.
So we talk a lot aboutpathogens, on Infectious Science
, yet we've somehow like nevertouched on one major source of
information about ancientpathogens and diseases, which is
mummies.
So today we are diving into alldifferent types of mummies.
So, if you didn't know, thereare mummies on every continent,
which I think is pretty cool.
(01:08):
That's incredible.
Yeah, I didn't actually realizethat there were like that many
mummies, but yeah, there aremummies on every continent.
Does it include Antarctica?
I guess so, because I thinkthey had, like, people who were
there and then they died andthen they just froze.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
That's crazy.
I recently read a novel aboutlike those type of bodies and
they just like thought out, andthen of course it was a horror
novel, and then they came back.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Basically.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah yeah, it's quite fascinating.
So, moving from science fictioninto the realm of reality,
there's basically two mummiesfall into like two types.
So you can have anthropogenicmummies, which are those created
deliberately by humans, sowe're going to talk about those
today.
You can also have spontaneousmummies, which are created
unintentionally by extremetemperature.
That could be something likeextreme cold, extreme heat or
(01:51):
like the acidic conditions in abog.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Bog bodies Bog bodies , yes.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
If you've never read about bog bodies, you should go
do that.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yeah, honestly, I went into a wormhole.
I think I was in undergrad andI saw this documentary on bog
bodies and I just did not stopresearching bog bodies for like
a week.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
That's so interesting .
And a lot of them were murders,right, yeah, yeah, or they were
like sacrifices or something.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Yeah, and then they end up dumping them in these you
know bogs, in these very ruralareas in Europe, and then the
bog itself preserves the bodies.
It's incredible, it's wild yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And then so I wonder how they're finding them.
Are the bogs like drying up, orare they like digging in the
bogs for bodies?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I don't know.
I think the first one was found.
I'm guessing it's probably as aresult of climate change and a
lot of what's going on.
But then once they found one,they're like let's look for more
.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Just a dredge of bogs .
They look really creepy they do.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
It's incredible what nature can do to preserve bodies
, but also how the body itselfdecomposes and what it becomes
after what's not a livingsentient being.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.
So that's what we're going toget into today.
We're going to talk about bothtypes of mummies and what we can
learn about ancient pathogensfrom them.
So probably the best knownexample of mummies that everyone
thinks of are Egyptian mummies.
So, christina, let's, let'sstart there.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yes, let's so.
Camille, I do want to ask youdid you end up watching?
Was it the 1999?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I did watch the 1999 the Mummy last night.
If no one's ever watched it, itis a cult classic.
For a reason I have that was myfavorite mummy movie as a child
, one of my favorite moviesperiod.
I don't know how many timesI've watched it and every time I
watch it it makes me cackle.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like I, just I laugh so hard.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Such a great movie, and I plan on watching the
second one tonight when I gethome, because why not?
Is the second one the ScorpionKing?
Yes, yes, yes with the Rock.
The.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Rock, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And then the third one, but that's the Chinese
emperor.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Oh, oh, oh, oh yes.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Like the terracotta army.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
It's a newer, mummy.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, he came out like 10 years ago I don't quite
remember, but yeah, I highlyrecommend the franchise.
I feel like everyone calls itreally campy, but I'm like this
is amazing.
This is like the horror that Ican watch because I'm like, oh,
there's something kind of scarylooking, but like it, it's a
(04:06):
great series and there's so manygood lines from it.
I am a librarian.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I am proud of what I am it really got the balance
between action, comedy andhorror, such a great balance of
the three, and Rachel Wise isjust such a talented actress and
then Brendan.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Fraser.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I do not love him just so great well, moving into
reality from our little detourinto the fantasy world of the
mummy, the movie series.
Camille actually sent me apaper from Scientific American
and it basically touched on thisstudy that was done with 31
mummies.
These mummies were taken fromwhat was presumed to be ancient
(04:41):
Egypt and Nubia, which is nowmodern day Southern Egypt and
Sudan, and 65% of these bodies,these mummies, had parasites.
We're fun to have parasites.
Yeah, 22% of the bodies hadmalaria, which, if you don't
know, malaria is a parasite.
Its vector is the Anophelesmosquito, and the reason that's
presumed to be why so many ofthese bodies had malaria was
(05:05):
because of their proximity tothe Nile right.
So the Nile is a major body ofwater.
Mosquitoes tend to hang aroundbodies of water in very humid
areas, and so the Nile wasprobably a really big factor in
the presence of malaria at sucha big quantity in this area.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Do they know if these bodies were the aristocracy, or
were these people that wereworking and therefore might've
been more exposed?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I don't know.
I do know that withLeishmaniasis at least they yeah
, so that was also found.
So Leishmaniasis inspectors, thesandfly, and this is another
study, but bodies that werefound from the middle kingdom
era in Egypt were analyzed and9.5% of those bodies had
Leishmaniasis.
And then Nubian mummies fromaround the same era.
(05:51):
13.5% of them had, and soapparently during this time
Egyptians had journeyed intoNubia for gold and slaves.
I didn't really look too muchinto this culturally or
historically, why that happened.
They kind of drew theconclusion that sand flies and
leishmaniasis could havepotentially been endemic to this
Nubian area.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So fun fact, if anyone is interested in a more
modern day version of this,there is a book called the Lost
City of the Monkey God andthey're looking at ruins in
Central South America.
I should remember, but I readthis like a decade ago, so I do
not.
They had found some suggestionsthat there was likely to be
ruins there.
They wanted to explore thoseruins and almost everyone on
(06:32):
that expedition ended up gettingLeishmaniasis.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
Oh my.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
God, yeah, and so potentially possibly that city
was abandoned and fell to ruinbecause Leishmaniasis was so
endemic there from the sandpipepopulation.
That's crazy, yeah, and so Ifeel like it's not something
people really think of a lot.
No, yeah, but if you have thevector there, for sure, and it's
really hard to get rid ofleishmaniasis, it's very hard to
(06:56):
treat and it also can causereally significant symptoms.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
There's like the open sores, yeah, the visceral,
which is like the organ basedform, the cutaneous which causes
those big open sores, and themucosal.
So basically it affects themucous membranes of the nose,
the throat and your mouth aswell.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Yeah, oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Yeah, there you go Wild.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Okay, also, something that I thought was hilarious
kind was that 40% of thesebodies had head lice and that
tended to be a trend that I sawwhile doing some research for
this episode.
So yeah, head lice fairlyprominent as well, Wow Well.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I wonder though and I don't know what time period
this started, but I know ancientEgyptians wore wigs.
I wonder if wigs got infestedwith the head lice.
I would assume they could beonly because of an episode of
the comedy Schitt's Creek, whereMoira Rose is terrified that
her wigs are going to getinfested with lice.
I don't know if they canactually be infested with lice,
but I would assume they could be.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
I wouldn't assume that the lice could live for a
long time on the wigs, but Ithink lice can be transmitted
through clothing and stuff likethat, and so if you're wearing a
, wig every day.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, that's so interesting that they would just
find like dead lice.
That just that kind of sends achill down my back.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Something else that had to do with ancient Egyptian
culture that I thought wasinteresting.
So obviously we know that theyreally venerated a lot of animal
forms, one of the main onesbeing the cat, and so that came
along with the cult of the catwas also potentially the present
of toxoplasma.
Oh yeah, so toxocysts werefound in some of these mummies,
(08:33):
so interesting.
Right and it's presumed thatbecause these populations had
higher exposures to cats,whether it be through just like
cats in the general area or alsothe mummification of cats, that
they had a higher exposure tocats and toxoplasmosis in
general.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh, that is so interesting If anyone wants to
learn more about toxoplasmosisseason one.
There's a whole episode on itfrom Infectious Science, so
check that out.
It can affect risk-takingbehavior and stuff and it's very
interesting.
It's also not as easy to get asyou think.
Check out that episode if youwant to know more.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
It is.
And then I will say there'splenty of data that states that
these mummies were exposed inpretty high quantities to M
leprae, which we've also done anepisode on.
That's actually the firstepisode of season two.
Go ahead and check it out ifyou haven't already.
And that's mycobacterium leprae.
But in this mummy that theywere specifically analyzing in
(09:25):
this paper, there weren'tactually physical signs of the
infection yet.
They had taken this sample frombone from the mummy, which they
drew the conclusion that it wasjust really early on in the
infection that there weren'tactually signs or manifestations
yet, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
That's so curious that it would be like on bone,
because normally it needs tolive.
Yeah, and it's also colder,colder areas, right, I guess,
though, if it's like bones, likefinger bones or something you
might have it Like, if that'swhere it's coming from.
But yeah, that's veryinteresting.
I know that you can also find alot of evidence of leprosy in
not mummies, but skeletons fromEurope.
(10:00):
Okay, yeah, pretty cool, forsure, mummies you would probably
get more out of, though,because it's like a actual full
body instead of just bones.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah, that's true, and I thought it was cool.
Going into the biochemistry ofthis is that both of the genomes
of hepatitis B, which was alsofound, and M leprosy from this
paper that I was reading both ofthem were fully reconstructed
their genomes.
However, these genomes wereshortened compared to the
strains that we know of today,which really is indicative right
(10:29):
.
So they were saying it'sindicative of, basically, the
ancient form of M lebray isshorter.
It's closer to the root oftheir at least more ancient
organisms of M lebray that theydo have.
And so it's just interesting tosee how the genomes of certain
bacteria and viruses and stufflike that change over time and
how we can kind of trace it backto its root.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah, I thought that was cool.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
That is very neat, yeah, and then we were talking
about the necrobiome also.
Yes, so mummies in general, weknow they do undergo decomposure
, even though they are carefullypreserved.
But the necrobiome itselfconsists of basically the
pathogens that help to decomposethe body, and when you analyze
the necrobiome you really get tosee a lot of what the
(11:16):
environment was around thesebodies, not only when they were
first mummified and firststarted decomposing, but
throughout the era too.
I didn't really go into anyresearch on the necrobiome
because I already had a lot ofinformation, but I thought it
was interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yeah, I actually have an interesting tidbit to add to
this, so I always just love tobring this up whenever it comes
up in context that from a publichealth standpoint, dead bodies
usually aren't that dangerous tous.
And particularly in a lot ofthe Western world now we have
like a funeral industry aroundhandling bodies and there's kind
of arisen this sort of myththat, like after a natural
disaster or things like that,that like bodies are dangerous
(11:53):
but the bacteria and such thatare causing this decomposition,
not the same stuff that's goingto really infect you.
There are some instances ofinfections that people can have
that can remain viable for alittle bit after death, but it's
not very long.
And if you think about that,that's because something like a
virus needs you know livingcells in order to continue to
(12:13):
replicate.
So, barring some more rareviruses that you're unlikely to
encounter, bodies usually aren'tthat dangerous.
So yeah, so I like to throwthat out there because I think
it's important and it's.
You know, we're myth busting,that's our little myth busting
fun fact.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Yes, I love that.
No, and that's so true, that'sabsolutely correct.
So, yeah, I'm not going to say,you know, go and bury the next
body you find necessarily.
Please don't just bury a body,you find we have concerns,
however.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
If you just find one.
But I think it's important tobring up in the context,
especially of mummies, when wetalk about anthropogenic mummies
, like people were handlingthese bodies extensively to
prepare them for burial and soclearly there was a different
culture around where bodiesdangerous or not.
So just for anyone who's evercurious, most dead bodies are
not dangerous to you.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah, yep, I love it.
Thanks for bringing that up.
Yeah, another infection that Ithink we're all very aware of
was smallpox.
So smallpox was apparentlyprevalent in the Egyptian
kingdom the new kingdom to beexact between the years 1570 BC
and 1085 BC, and smallpox causedby the variola virus.
(13:20):
Apparently, there's evidencethat King Ramses V, who
apparently only reigned for, Ithink, four-ish years, he was
depicted with smallpox-likepustules on his face.
Oh yeah, so a little culturaltidbit right there, yeah, and.
I would assume you know.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I feel like Compared to like European monarchs that
are like, let me put a quarterinch of makeup on my face to
hide any perceived imperfections.
But of course that makeup wasmade of arsenic, so you end up
with problems.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
That's different.
That's different yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
So, he was depicted with those pox-like bumps on his
face and that really short rolltoo.
I guess potentially, you know,smock pox didn't let him roll
for long.
Yeah, and even the Hittite claytablets accused Egyptian
(14:16):
prisoners of war of passing on adisease that's described
similarly to smallpox that endedup causing this Hittite plague,
essentially, and that plagueitself was described in one of
the tablets as 20 years ofconstant dying.
Yeah, so that sounds verysmallpox-y.
Yes, that does, that does sounda lot like smallpox.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, so that sounds very smallpox-y.
Yes, that does.
That does sound a lot likesmallpox.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yes, two other honorable mentions were
tuberculosis, as we are wellaware of.
Samples between Middle Kingdomand the late period were
analyzed and mycobacteriumtuberculosis was found.
And then this study didspoligotyping.
I don't necessarily know toomuch about what this is, but
(14:48):
from what I could see itassesses direct repeat strains
of bacteria using the PCR todetermine the relatedness
between certain strains.
Gotcha and compared MTB with Mafricanum, so Mycobacterium
africanum, and their conclusionwas that TB potentially
originated from a precursorcomplex related to M africanum.
And their conclusion was thatTB potentially originated from a
(15:09):
precursor complex related to Mafricanum because they were both
found in the mummy itself,that's very interesting.
Yeah, and then the last one Iwanted to mention was plague,
too.
Good old plague, good oldplague.
She's everywhere.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Anywhere there's rats .
Speaker 4 (15:22):
And where were there rats?
Along the Nile, and so theseNile rats is what they called
them during these huge Nilefloods.
Obviously, the rats are pushedcloser and closer to the human
civilization or the society, andthat just allowed them to
basically spread the flies andspread the fleas and spread the
plague.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah, yeah.
And Egypt was also a verywealthy, wealthy kingdom and
they had surplus grain storeswhen things were good.
And what does that attract?
Rats, if not pests.
Yes, so it attracts rats, soI'm sure that that didn't help
anything as far as any diseasesthat those rodents might've been
carrying.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
There's actually this medical text that I saw a
sample of, from 1500 BC, thatdescribed this plague in Egypt
and it said that the disease hasproduced a bubo and the pus has
petrified.
The disease has hit.
I was like oh, that's rough.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Plague's coming for you, rip.
Yeah, I do kind of wonder ifthey were like exporting grain
or they just exporting diseaseson these rats.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
I wonder if they were like exporting grain or they
just exporting diseases on theserats, and so I was reading also
that a lot of what came fromEgypt was actually incorporated
in the trade also potentiallyhad effects with Europe and then
also Asia, yeah, through trade.
So potentially Egypt justspreading that plague around.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Just not doing its part.
But as always, as you have, andwe see this, you know, in the
modern day just to kind of bringthis into context as you have
war, like you were describing,you certainly see increases in
disease as public healthinfrastructure breaks down.
And as you have trade and wehave globalized trade and you
can get anywhere anywhere in theworld, whoever you trade with
(17:01):
your health is interconnected.
And whoever they trade withyour health is interconnected
and whoever they trade with yourhealth is also interconnected.
So I think that that's you knowsomething.
Just to highlight that that hasexisted for as long as human
civilization has been around.
If we're coming into contactwith each other, we're not only
sharing lovely, amazing thingslike a surplus of grain and a
beautiful culture and, you know,gold and all that jazz, but
we're also sharing the diseasesthat are prevalent in our
(17:22):
population.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Exactly.
We're also susceptible to youknow the same things, and it
really just shows how we are sointerconnected.
Yes, yes, for sure, for sure,but that's really the main stuff
that I have about Egypt.
I know that you had reallyinteresting information on other
ancient bodies.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yes, would you like to?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutelyTake the wheel.
So I'm going to dive intoEuropean mummies, all right, but
first I just want to say that Ifound this out and I was
absolutely floored.
Like this shocked me to thecore.
So, sadly, due to amistranslation and some
misinformation, europeans for atime imported and ate Egyptian
(18:00):
mummies as medicine.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Oh, my days, yeah, oh no.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, so you can look this up.
You can find like littleapothecary things to say, like
mummia, I believe.
A lot of times these mummiescan be coated in like a resin
and they thought that that resinhad like a health property.
So they were like, well, we'lleat it.
And so they just like stole orotherwise acquired mummies and
brought them back to be kind ofmashed into pieces and used in
(18:28):
medicine.
Oh, no.
So yeah, mashed into pieces andused in medicine, so yeah.
So later, as legit and notfraudulent mummies became hard
to find, europeans began to uselocal bodies.
So you know, don't import, butlocal.
Does this sound like anythingyou've ever heard in a grocery
store?
Scarily enough, so this iscalled corpse medicine and it
was a thing in Europe for awhile.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
And was this thought to bring you general health or
was it specifically forsomething?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
So one 1643 remedy for seizures includes a recipe
that calls for a disturbingcentral ingredient the unburied
skulls of three men who died aviolent death.
Jeez, so very specific.
It kind of sounds more likewitchcraft than medicine, which
is kind of wild, because at thattime they were definitely
persecuting witches, but youcould eat bodies and that was
okay.
What's also wild about this isthat in once again a typical
(19:15):
paradigm of colonialism, theywere like wow, it's so savage to
be a cannibal, and yet that isexactly what they were doing for
their health.
Oh fun yeah, so just thought I'dpoint that out.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Totally yeah in other news In other less disgusting
news In other less news.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
So that's my first fun point on Europe and mummies.
My next one is actually notmummies, but it's back to plague
, so it's DNA that's extractedfrom teeth from a London plague
pit.
Oh, plague pit.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Fun.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Okay, a plague pit yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So at some points in history, so many people were
dying of the plague that theyjust dug mass graves and they
just put them in plague pit, andthat's how that they found that
it was Yersinia pestis thatcaused it.
And so, like we take that, as afact nowadays that it was, you
know, the Black Death and it'sYersinia pestis, but of course,
for a long time no one reallyknew.
Oh, it was the miasma man.
Yeah, no one really knew whatcaused it.
But if we hadn't believed inmiasma you wouldn't have cool
(20:13):
plague, Dr.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Mask today.
Absolutely, that is hands down.
No one steal it.
My Halloween costume next year.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
It's great.
It's a great Halloween costume.
I respect it.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
I respect it.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
But only if you go like full, like with the cape
and everything.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Absolutely.
You know, cape cane hat, ohyeah, Just all out.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yep Steampunk.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I respect it.
I respect it, so yeah.
So now to actual mummies, soactual European mummies.
So I have two examples.
The first I want to talk aboutis the Medici mummies Nice, so
you've probably heard of theMedici, if do now in the United.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
States.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So their organs were removed, the body was cleaned
and then stuffed.
Interestingly enough,researchers recently I believe
it's from 2023, so, like veryrecent found parasite-like
structures on red blood cellsfrom this kind of like preserved
tissue, and so these structures, when examined, were found to
be the malaria parasite,plasmodium falciparum, which is
really interesting that you havethis issue from hundreds of
(21:13):
years ago.
We know that you can preservered blood cells, but to actually
see parasites was wild.
So what's interesting?
I feel like people don't knowthat malaria was endemic in
Europe for a while.
It also was endemic in theUnited States for a very long
time.
There was a lot of big publichealth campaigns to get rid of
that, but with climate change,malaria is likely coming to a
city near you soon.
(21:34):
Oh, no.
Something to keep in mind.
But anyways, the Medici mummythis belonged to, and they kind
of have some trouble likefiguring out who's who, because
of course you didn't necessarilylabel things.
Everybody at the time knew whothey were right, so the Medici
that these red blood cells werefrom probably picked up malaria
when hunting in the marshlandsof Florence, italy.
So because they were basicallyan aristocratic family, they
(21:57):
just had like leisure time tohunt, so because of that they
probably picked up malaria.
Got malaria, yeah Darn, yeah,jeez.
So that's the anthropogenicmummies.
So those are the mummies thatpeople made in Europe.
I didn't find a lot of otherexamples.
I know there are mummieselsewhere in Europe, but the one
that I next wanted to talkabout was a spontaneous mummy
that probably everyone'sfamiliar with is Otzi the Iceman
.
Yes, so some Europeans foundhim when hiking.
(22:20):
That to me sounds likesomething out of a horror novel.
I have actually read a horrornovel with that premise.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Absolutely.
Yeah, imagine, imagine you'rejust going hiking one beautiful
day.
It's nice and cool outside, youknow, you're just having a
great time in the mountains, andthen you come across a buddy.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
A really old dead guy , like a really really old dead
guy, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
So that's how we got our love of Otzi.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, and Otzi's taught us a lot right
Like and there's so muchinformation on Otzi that I could
not possibly cover it all.
And I believe actually, when Iwas looking, I found someone at
UTMB made like a podcast episodeabout Otzi, like way, like
maybe like 2012 or something.
So I was like, yeah, I didn'tknow, I stumbled across this,
but the point I wanted to bringup for Otzi is that
mitochondrial DNA analysisshowed Borrelia burgdorferi,
(23:08):
which is the bacteria thatcauses.
Lyme disease.
So Lyme disease is reallyreally a big problem in the
United States.
You often get it from exposureto ticks.
It's also a big issue in pets,right?
So if your pets are outside andthey're not on flea and tick
medication, they pick it up andit certainly can cause all kinds
of issues and can just causedamage.
(23:28):
Of course, it's treatable withantibiotics, but what's really
interesting is that because thisdisease was found to be present
in Otzi's bones, that makes himthe first documented case of
Lyme disease in humans.
Wow, yeah so potentially, it'syou know, existed for this
longer, but he's the first.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
How far back does Otzi date to?
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
That is a great question.
Look it up.
Yeah, we should look that upreal quick yes, but that is
fascinating.
Yeah, I think it's really cooland, of course, like so, so much
more has been done and ifanyone is interested in seeing
Otzi's body, it is on display.
Oh where.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
I believe in.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Italy.
So you can see it, it's like ina refrigerated case.
Yeah, also speaking mummiesseeing the King Tut.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I mean, there's an exhibit in Houston.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
It's a replica of everything.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
But it's really good.
I went to it like a month ortwo ago and it was really good.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah, it was fantastic.
I went to it, I think last year.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, it's really neat.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Recommend that 100%.
I was going to say, with KingTut speaking of they found two
strains of malaria in this poorman when they were assessing his
body.
Otzi, sorry, going back to Otzinow, he is 5,300 years old.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Wow, so Lyme disease has been with us at least that
long, and I think that'simportant to bring up, because
there was definitely somemisinformation when Lyme first
became an issue in the UnitedStates about where Lyme came
from.
Lyme has been with humans avery long time 5,300 years is a
very long time and he was alsolikely not the first case, right
?
He's just the first case thatwe can prove because we have a
body.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yeah, and that's so interesting.
So I guess Borrelia reallyneeds a very cold climate in
order to survive, and I guessthat's why here in the US it's
predominantly found in theNortheast.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, right, but it it is, oh my gosh.
I grew up in the northeast andit is a major public health
concern because, if you areanywhere where there's taller
grass yeah, oh my gosh and ticksare everywhere, yeah,
everywhere.
I used to go walking on myparents farm and when the nymphs
would be out, you would step onthe ground and it's like the
whole ground would be movingwith them, like you're like
stepping and it's like they looklike little spiders just going
(25:27):
everywhere.
That's crazy.
Interestingly enough, I grew upthere and I have never been
bitten by a tick.
What, never, ever, ever.
And I grew up like working inhayfields, which is tall grass,
you know, being on a farm, I'mout like in the dirt and I never
have been bitten by a tick.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
If Dennis were here, he'd be like at least that you
know of, at least that you knowof, at least that you know of,
at least that you know of, yeah,at least that you know of.
And I think he has said that tome before, but I don't have.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Lyme.
And if I had been bitten by atick in the Northeast, odds are
I wouldn't have Lyme, chancesare getting.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Lyme, yeah, very high , very high.
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
So it's something you have to test, like every pet
for up North a little blood test, oh for sure.
Speaking of permafrost bodies,I want to talk now a little bit
about the 1918 influenza andwhat we learned from spontaneous
mummies.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah.
So, for those who don't know,the 1918 influenza was
incredibly severe.
Oh yeah, killed 20 to 40million people worldwide.
That may not sound a lot like alot to you today, but consider
that the population was muchlower than it is right now.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
It's an incredible amount of people, and people
would just like drop.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
consider that the population was much lower than
it is right now.
Absolutely, it's an incredibleamount of people and people
would just like drop dead in thestreets.
I mean it was absolutely wildCaused, basically these cytokine
storms in the lungs likemassive hemorrhages.
I mean it was gruesome,gruesome.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
That sounds horrible.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, really horrible .
But what's really wild is thatat some point people wanted to
kind of look at the strain andfigure out why it was so bad.
Right yeah, which is importantbecause like influenza, because
of shift and drift, isconstantly going to nag at the
heels of humans, so you mighthear that flu shots every year
(27:10):
are only like 40, 60% effective.
As someone who has actuallytruly had the flu when I was 16,
I was in the hospital for twoweeks and I'm otherwise a very
healthy individual and I was 16,right, so like you, should be
able to shake stuff off whenyou're a teenager.
And if we did not have modernmedicine, I would absolutely be
dead.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I was on an IV Like it was awful.
The flu is no joke Absolutely,like it was awful.
Yeah, the flu is no jokeAbsolutely.
And the reason you need shotsevery year is because the strain
constantly changes every singleyear.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And that's also because we pick it up from a lot
of different animal reservoirswhere you can see change
occurring.
You've definitely heard ofavian flu, probably at this
point Also swine flu, thingslike that.
So you know where we pick up.
A pathogen does matter, but Ijust want to point out that I
always get my flu shot and Ithink it's really important to
do that, because if there's anychance it's going to reduce the
(27:57):
severity and duration of it,absolutely do it, because I
think a lot of people mistakegetting the flu for like what.
It is actually like a cold orlike like a you know a GI thing
and in reality the flu willknock you down.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
It is bad.
It is not just the cold, it isnot just a sinus infection Like
the flu is hard on your body andwe have deaths every single
year from the flu even in theUnited.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
States and you don't really hear about them because
it's basically kind of whatCOVID has become and that it's
this socially acceptable numberof deaths which is actually
really sad.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Yeah, it is Absolutely so, if you can do
your part to help yourself andalso help others and help your
community.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, please do, please do so.
Anyways, back to this 1918influenza, which was really
severe.
So RNA from the 1918 influenzawas obtained from a lung biopsy
from a victim of the flu who hadbeen buried in the permafrost.
So basically, here's the story.
So in November of 1918, theinfluenza pandemic struck the
(28:54):
Seward Peninsula in Alaska in anInuit village called Brevig
Mission.
So according to historicalrecords, the 1918 flu spread
through the village in aboutfive days and within those five
days it killed 85% of the adultpopulation, oh my gosh, yeah, so
massively just wiping peopleout.
(29:15):
So victims because there were somany were buried in a mass
grave in the permafrost.
79 years later, in 1997, fourvictims were exhumed from this
mass grave by Dr Johan Hulten,who basically received
permission from the villagecouncil to dig Frozen lung
tissue, was biopsied and thegrave was closed, and so that
(29:39):
was kind of the first time thiswas done.
He then later ended up goingback a second time and doing
this, dug deeper and then againtook lung biopsy tissue.
This time, one of the bodiesthat was exhumed was an Inuit
female who was positive for theinfluenza RNA.
She had significant fatdeposits around her lungs which
(29:59):
had protected the lungs morefrom degradation.
They were able to basically getthe viral RNA from this lung
tissue.
However, the RNA templatesgreater than 120 nucleotides
could not be amplified from this.
So that means that it's not alive virus, but that it could be
sequenced, and so that wasimportant because we really
wanted to figure out whatsimilarly was circulating and
(30:21):
when could this happen again?
This is, of course, a reallybig topic that's alive in the
world right now, as we thinkabout avian flu.
So that goal of that researchwas to basically find out the
origin of 1918 flu and if itcould happen again.
They basically determined thatthe 1918 influenza virus was
similar to swine and birdviruses, but thankfully, as we
have previously said, deadbodies are not super dangerous,
(30:43):
and so the virus was of coursenot alive 79 years later when he
dug it up, thank you.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Thank you, science.
But moving from permafrostbodies back on over to the
Americas, here we are going totake a little dive into Peruvian
mummies.
Yes, so the first paper I cameacross really spoke about the
gut microbiome of the IncanEmpire, so this is around the
10th and 14th centuries.
Thought it was really cool,because the microbiome, or the
(31:16):
bacteria that were found tocomprise this microbiome that
was assessed, actually werebacteria that were resistant
already to many of the strongestantibiotics that we use today.
So some of those includedvancomycin, penicillin,
tetracyclines.
One bug that was specificallymentioned was enterococcus,
which is a very strong bacteria.
It's resistant to a lot ofthings, and so the question that
(31:36):
was brought into play here waswhy are they resistant?
Is this a natural resistant,like it makes sense, our modern
antibiotics come from naturalsources, like we've previously
spoken about, or are there otherforces at play?
Like were there Peruvianantibiotics back in the day,
during?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
the Incan Empire.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
So I thought that was really interesting to bring up,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
And also, I'm sure, very hard to draw conclusions on
it because, again, you're onlyworking with what you have.
But yeah, I think that that'simportant to keep in mind.
We did a whole episode on thisthat bacteria produce these
antibiotics because it's like,hey, we're living in close
quarters and I need to kill offcompetition.
So sometimes these things dojust arise naturally, yes, and
(32:24):
bacteria just are kind of wildin the fact that they can just
kind of pick up DNA from a lotof different places.
Oh my gosh, that's reallyinteresting.
Medicinally, they could havepotentially been using something
, or it could have just been adiet thing.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
It's hard to tell.
Yeah, exactly, and I alwayswonder.
There are so many bugs in thisworld, there are so many
pathogens, there are so manydiseases and illnesses.
I understand that the mortalityrate was so much higher back in
the day, before antibiotics,before modern medicine, but
still so many people survivedand persevered.
You would think that thesepeople contracted in their
lifetime at least a couple ofinfections, or a couple.
(32:57):
You know what I mean.
So what were the ways that theywere able to combat these
illnesses?
Absolutely?
I've always wondered that.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that we often like to
discount, potentially, remediesthat have been passed down
generation to generation, thatpeople used as a way of caring
for anyone who is sick.
And I think what's interestingto keep in mind is that if you
really look at a lot of thesesystems of accessing care, the
focus is on that there's someonethere providing care, like if
(33:27):
someone's doing acupuncture onyou, they are there with you for
like 40 minutes doing it,whereas, like in Western
medicine, you might see a doctorfor 20 minutes if you're lucky.
And that's due to a lot ofreasons, right, and that's not
physician's fault.
There's a lot of pressures onthe system that shape it that
way.
I was in China for a bit in 2019and we had a lecture on this.
They're not really teas, butthese simmering things that you
(33:49):
have and someone is taking them.
It's like a traditional Chinesemedicine medication, but what
is very effective and that theytalk about is like it's not just
that we're prescribingsomething to people, which often
makes people feel good, right,placebo effect is a real thing,
but there is someone theremaking it for them to then take,
and I think that that'ssomething that ancient cultures
probably did better than we doand that there's someone who's
(34:11):
there providing care.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Yeah, and there's an emphasis on like, the actual
physical providing the care.
You know what I mean.
It's not just like here's yourremedy next, here's your remedy
next.
Absolutely, it's so importantto have that connection with
your patient and to be able tolike, recognize your patient as
a human being and as someone whoalso needs to be provided care
and they're coming to you,vulnerable, and you need to
(34:34):
acknowledge that and you need toappreciate that.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
And providing culturally confident care.
Right, that's such a huge thingand that's something that it's
marvelous that we live in such adiverse, fascinating community.
But it can also mean that whenyou're seeking care, you might
be seeking care from somebodywho doesn't come from your
background and therefore mightnot instinctively kind of be
like.
This is how I meet people wherethey're at, Whereas if you were
(34:58):
back in more ancient times,you're in a more isolated
setting, which is not entirelyisolated, but much more isolated
than today, and that wasprobably different and the
expectations around what thatcare looks like.
So people might've been happierwith it.
We don't know.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
We'll never know, but I think that's a good
conversation.
That's a topic to touch, yeah.
My second point, though, withthe peruvian mummies, was
basically based on this paperthat assessed this one body that
was found.
It was a young woman betweenthe ages of 20 and 25.
Is what she was assumed to havebeen when she passed.
She passed from blunt forcetrauma, yeah, but they were
thinking in this paper that shewas part of a ritualistic
homicide.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, because her body wasprepared in the way and it was
(35:41):
placed in a way that would beassumed, and then the actual
blunt force trauma came fromwhat they seem to be clubbing to
the head.
Oh ouch, yeah, it's prettyrough.
But basically the fractures inthe skull and everything led
them to believe that the traumathat the skull sustained was
done pre-mortem instead ofpost-mortem, because this body
was also kind of damaged duringWorld War II, apparently from a
(36:03):
bombing, and World War IIbecause this body was brought
from Peru to Germany and then itwas kept there for a while but
not analyzed, it was justpreserved.
Damage happened but notanalyzed.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
It was just preserved .
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Damage happened, years went on Wow, and then in
the 2000s, they started actuallydiving into it.
Oh, that's wild what the bodycould tell us, yeah, but
basically what was found in thisbody was T cruzi or Chagas.
Oh yeah, so T cruzi causes whatis called Chagas disease, and
it is very prevalent, especiallyin South America, and what
(36:37):
happens is the kissing bug, Ithink is what it's called right,
yeah kissing bug, assassin'sbug.
Yeah, basically comes in whatyou study in medical schools.
There's these two bites thatare by the eye, because it comes
and it kind of gets to the faceand then that's how the I
believe it's attracted to CO2,which is why it goes to the face
, gets to the face, and thenthat's how the.
I believe it's attracted to CO2, which is why it goes to the
face.
Ah, that makes sense.
I think that's why.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Okay, yeah, but I think that's why.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
That's okay, that makes sense and that's how you
contract T cruzi.
But this body was assessed forT cruzi predominantly because on
paleoradiology the body wasfound to have cardiac
hypertrophy, so enlargement ofthe heart, a distended bowel,
thickened bowel and alsodistended rectum, and in the
(37:18):
rectum there was actuallyevidence of massive fibrosis
which, in order for there to bea fibrosis of that extent, this
disease had to be going onchronically.
Yeah, it's a chronic pathology,and so what they did was they
actually took samples of thesmooth muscle within there,
because the fibrotic musclethere's a chronic pathology, and
so what they did was theyactually took samples of the
smooth muscle within there,because the fibrotic muscle
there's no nucleus.
You can't really get DNA butfrom the smooth muscle, and
(37:41):
that's what they histologicallyexamined first and they found
that there were intracellularparasitic inclusions within that
.
And then the DNA analysisrevealed T cruzi.
That is wild, yeah.
So this poor woman was presumedto have chronic T-Cruzi
(38:01):
infection.
And yeah, she also had othersigns so the cardiomegaly so
enlarged heart is a big sign ofT-Cruzi the rectal findings, the
fibrosis and the enlargement ofthe bowel, and then
hepatomegaly.
So she also had an enlargedliver and just other signs that
really pointed towards theT-Cruise infection.
And then once they did the DNAanalysis it came out positive.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
That is really, really wild.
Speaker 4 (38:22):
Oh, yeah, and this was a long time ago.
I also read more socially aboutwhat they figured out about the
body.
So basically, from her hairthey could assess that her diet
had changed recently before herdeath.
Okay, prepared, yeah, eitherprepared, or they found some
like carbon markers, I think, inher body that indicated that
(38:44):
she predominantly had ingested aseafood diet all her life.
So they had put together thatshe lived on the coast of Peru.
She lived on the coast of Peruand then before her death,
within a recent timeframe shehad moved further inland because
of certain markers that hadchanged.
Yeah, so I thought that waspretty interesting.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I wonder what my hair would say about my diet.
I was going to say Sugarprobably.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Also, when they started assessing her hair, I
was like, hmm, makes me think ofdrug tests, and so they did do
some drug tests to see if it waspart of a ritual been given any
kind of hallucinogenics oranything like that, and she
hadn't been.
That sounds very painful tohave been ritualistically
murdered.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
I also do want to note that that is not something
that's specific to Peru.
In Egypt, this didn't continuethrough all the dynasties, but
for some of the first, when thepharaoh had passed, there would
be this mass killing of peopleto basically ensure that heir to
the throne oftentimes a youngindividual right, because people
(39:46):
did not live long, that therewould be no challengers to their
throne.
So they often just killed offmass amounts of people as part
of a ritual.
So it's not unique.
And also, if you think aboutthe bog bodies, europeans also
did this.
So, like you see this, whereverwe find evidence of human
civilization that people werekilled ritualistically.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
I feel like I've read somewhere, I heard somewhere,
that also pharaohs were buriedwith their court essentially, or
at least members of their court, and those members were buried
alive when it came down to it.
Is that true?
I?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
don't know if they were buried alive.
I don't know.
I do know that in some casespeople were definitely buried
with what was assumed to be kindof like concubines.
Okay, but they certainly buriedanimals right, so you had use
of the animals in the afterlifeand so that was done very
intentionally, yeah, and thefact to go through and mummify
(40:35):
some of them right, like theamount of cat mummies they found
from Egypt is wild.
I would be interested to see thedifference in toxoplasma from
then to now, based on thosemummies.
I bet somebody's looked at that.
That's probably been done.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
So maybe that's a whole other side.
Tangent is animal mummies andwhat we can learn from animal
reservoirs.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
Let us know if you want to hear that episode.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Yeah, but just kind of goingoff of really quickly.
I know that you touched onmalaria being found in the
Italian mummies.
I touched on malaria beingfound in Egyptian mummies.
Malaria is such a debilitatingthing at times because it is
such a strong infection.
Basically, what malaria does isit's transmitted to a human
(41:18):
when the Anopheles mosquitobites you.
Then the parasite itself goesand remains dormant in your
liver and then, once it's ready,it comes and infects your red
blood cells yes, and it lysesthem after it's done with them,
which means it explodes them.
Exactly.
As you can imagine that doesnot feel good.
It does not feel good.
You need to erode blood cells,because your blood cells carry
(41:38):
oxygen throughout your body, andso that's why people who have
malaria can sometimes experiencelike really severe fatigue and
weakness and tiredness as wellas cyclical fevers.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
So when you think about such a high population
having infections like malaria,like it has such a big effect on
the actual society itself, whenyou think about it, you know
what I mean.
Yes, and I know that malaria isnot by any means gone today,
like you've made a good point instating, and in fact it's like
such a big issue and the rangeis increasing.
(42:12):
Yeah, as the world warms up,it's such a big issue in, and
the range is increasing as theworld warms up, big issue in
certain parts of the world andit's so important to note not
only just like the healtheffects of malaria on these
populations, but also the socialeffects that malaria has.
It can be crippling.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Oh, absolutely.
And speaking of, you mentionedChagas and we've actually
discussed potentially doing anepisode on this.
But Chagas for a while in somecountries was really sort of
condemned because it wasconsidered that you might have
been part of the guerrillamovement, so you were more
likely to be exposed to Chagas.
Of course, if you are livingpotentially more rural areas,
(42:47):
yes, you might be living moretemporary housing, and so it
might have been a sign that youwere part of a political group
that was essentially trying tooust the other political group,
and so people had a lot ofapprehension towards presenting
with this disease because therewas this fear that you would be
associated with that and thenpersecuted right, and so there
was a lot of persecution aroundthis disease because of that for
(43:10):
a while.
And also, chagas is reallymostly seen in South American
countries, but again, that canchange as the range of the
kissing bug changes.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
So yeah, I know it's found in.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Texas.
You can find it in Texas.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Yeah, it's definitely found in Texas.
So yeah, it's here, Jeez manyeah.
And it just shows like climatechange doesn't just affect, you
know, certain things that wepredominantly think it affects.
It has a huge effect on ourhealth and on global health, as
is, and with you know, andeveryone's health yes, now and
in the future.
And with a warming climateglobally comes broader access to
(43:44):
different environments forthese bugs, and so you just have
to be more aware of that.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think that that's a greatpoint and that just brings us
full circle with why it'simportant to look at ancient
pathogens because it tells usabout the world at that time,
and now we are changing andediting our world and our
climate so much so it'simportant to look at how
globalization and warfare andwhat was present in your
(44:13):
environment at the time, becausethat's going to change and it's
changed from ancient times tonow, and now it's changing at an
ever more rapid pace.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, absolutely A hundred percent agree.
Great way to end this episode,I think.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah, thank you for joining us for this episode of
Infectious Science.
I'm Camila Du, one of yourco-hosts.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
And I'm Christina Rios, your other co-hosts.
Thank you guys so much and wewill see you guys next time on
Infectious Science.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Heck, yeah.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening to theInfectious Science podcast.
Be sure to hit subscribe andvisit infectiousscienceorg to
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Speaker 1 (44:51):
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Speaker 2 (45:00):
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To get in touch, drop a line inthe comments section or send us
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Speaker 1 (45:09):
So we'll see you next time for a new episode and in
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This is a podcast about One Health the idea that
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we all share are intrinsicallylinked.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical
Branch and the GalvestonNational Laboratory.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
This is Infectious Science.
Where enthusiasm for science?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
is contagious.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
All right, Hello everyone.
Welcome back to another episodeof Infectious Science.
Hello, hello.
We are very excited to be herewith you today.
It's just Christina and I, andwe are going to talk about
mummies and pathogens.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I'm so excited for this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yes, I think it's gonna be a good one.
So we talk a lot aboutpathogens, on Infectious Science
, yet we've somehow like nevertouched on one major source of
information about ancientpathogens and diseases, which is
mummies.
So today we are diving into alldifferent types of mummies.
So, if you didn't know, thereare mummies on every continent,
which I think is pretty cool.
(01:08):
That's incredible.
Yeah, I didn't actually realizethat there were like that many
mummies, but yeah, there aremummies on every continent.
Does it include Antarctica?
I guess so, because I thinkthey had, like, people who were
there and then they died andthen they just froze.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
That's crazy.
I recently read a novel aboutlike those type of bodies and
they just like thought out, andthen of course it was a horror
novel, and then they came back.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Basically.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Yeah yeah, it's quite fascinating.
So, moving from science fictioninto the realm of reality,
there's basically two mummiesfall into like two types.
So you can have anthropogenicmummies, which are those created
deliberately by humans, sowe're going to talk about those
today.
You can also have spontaneousmummies, which are created
unintentionally by extremetemperature.
That could be something likeextreme cold, extreme heat or
(01:51):
like the acidic conditions in abog.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Bog bodies Bog bodies , yes.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
If you've never read about bog bodies, you should go
do that.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yeah, honestly, I went into a wormhole.
I think I was in undergrad andI saw this documentary on bog
bodies and I just did not stopresearching bog bodies for like
a week.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
That's so interesting .
And a lot of them were murders,right, yeah, yeah, or they were
like sacrifices or something.
Speaker 4 (02:11):
Yeah, and then they end up dumping them in these you
know bogs, in these very ruralareas in Europe, and then the
bog itself preserves the bodies.
It's incredible, it's wild yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
And then so I wonder how they're finding them.
Are the bogs like drying up, orare they like digging in the
bogs for bodies?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I don't know.
I think the first one was found.
I'm guessing it's probably as aresult of climate change and a
lot of what's going on.
But then once they found one,they're like let's look for more
.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Just a dredge of bogs .
They look really creepy they do.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
It's incredible what nature can do to preserve bodies
, but also how the body itselfdecomposes and what it becomes
after what's not a livingsentient being.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting.
So that's what we're going toget into today.
We're going to talk about bothtypes of mummies and what we can
learn about ancient pathogensfrom them.
So probably the best knownexample of mummies that everyone
thinks of are Egyptian mummies.
So, christina, let's, let'sstart there.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yes, let's so.
Camille, I do want to ask youdid you end up watching?
Was it the 1999?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I did watch the 1999 the Mummy last night.
If no one's ever watched it, itis a cult classic.
For a reason I have that was myfavorite mummy movie as a child
, one of my favorite moviesperiod.
I don't know how many timesI've watched it and every time I
watch it it makes me cackle.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like I, just I laugh so hard.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Such a great movie, and I plan on watching the
second one tonight when I gethome, because why not?
Is the second one the ScorpionKing?
Yes, yes, yes with the Rock.
The.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
Rock, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And then the third one, but that's the Chinese
emperor.
Speaker 4 (03:42):
Oh, oh, oh, oh yes.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Like the terracotta army.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
It's a newer, mummy.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, he came out like 10 years ago I don't quite
remember, but yeah, I highlyrecommend the franchise.
I feel like everyone calls itreally campy, but I'm like this
is amazing.
This is like the horror that Ican watch because I'm like, oh,
there's something kind of scarylooking, but like it, it's a
(04:06):
great series and there's so manygood lines from it.
I am a librarian.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I am proud of what I am it really got the balance
between action, comedy andhorror, such a great balance of
the three, and Rachel Wise isjust such a talented actress and
then Brendan.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Fraser.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I do not love him just so great well, moving into
reality from our little detourinto the fantasy world of the
mummy, the movie series.
Camille actually sent me apaper from Scientific American
and it basically touched on thisstudy that was done with 31
mummies.
These mummies were taken fromwhat was presumed to be ancient
(04:41):
Egypt and Nubia, which is nowmodern day Southern Egypt and
Sudan, and 65% of these bodies,these mummies, had parasites.
We're fun to have parasites.
Yeah, 22% of the bodies hadmalaria, which, if you don't
know, malaria is a parasite.
Its vector is the Anophelesmosquito, and the reason that's
presumed to be why so many ofthese bodies had malaria was
(05:05):
because of their proximity tothe Nile right.
So the Nile is a major body ofwater.
Mosquitoes tend to hang aroundbodies of water in very humid
areas, and so the Nile wasprobably a really big factor in
the presence of malaria at sucha big quantity in this area.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Do they know if these bodies were the aristocracy, or
were these people that wereworking and therefore might've
been more exposed?
Speaker 4 (05:28):
I don't know.
I do know that withLeishmaniasis at least they yeah
, so that was also found.
So Leishmaniasis inspectors, thesandfly, and this is another
study, but bodies that werefound from the middle kingdom
era in Egypt were analyzed and9.5% of those bodies had
Leishmaniasis.
And then Nubian mummies fromaround the same era.
(05:51):
13.5% of them had, and soapparently during this time
Egyptians had journeyed intoNubia for gold and slaves.
I didn't really look too muchinto this culturally or
historically, why that happened.
They kind of drew theconclusion that sand flies and
leishmaniasis could havepotentially been endemic to this
Nubian area.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So fun fact, if anyone is interested in a more
modern day version of this,there is a book called the Lost
City of the Monkey God andthey're looking at ruins in
Central South America.
I should remember, but I readthis like a decade ago, so I do
not.
They had found some suggestionsthat there was likely to be
ruins there.
They wanted to explore thoseruins and almost everyone on
(06:32):
that expedition ended up gettingLeishmaniasis.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
Oh my.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
God, yeah, and so potentially possibly that city
was abandoned and fell to ruinbecause Leishmaniasis was so
endemic there from the sandpipepopulation.
That's crazy, yeah, and so Ifeel like it's not something
people really think of a lot.
No, yeah, but if you have thevector there, for sure, and it's
really hard to get rid ofleishmaniasis, it's very hard to
(06:56):
treat and it also can causereally significant symptoms.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
There's like the open sores, yeah, the visceral,
which is like the organ basedform, the cutaneous which causes
those big open sores, and themucosal.
So basically it affects themucous membranes of the nose,
the throat and your mouth aswell.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Yeah, oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Yeah, there you go Wild.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Okay, also, something that I thought was hilarious
kind was that 40% of thesebodies had head lice and that
tended to be a trend that I sawwhile doing some research for
this episode.
So yeah, head lice fairlyprominent as well, Wow Well.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I wonder though and I don't know what time period
this started, but I know ancientEgyptians wore wigs.
I wonder if wigs got infestedwith the head lice.
I would assume they could beonly because of an episode of
the comedy Schitt's Creek, whereMoira Rose is terrified that
her wigs are going to getinfested with lice.
I don't know if they canactually be infested with lice,
but I would assume they could be.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
I wouldn't assume that the lice could live for a
long time on the wigs, but Ithink lice can be transmitted
through clothing and stuff likethat, and so if you're wearing a
, wig every day.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, that's so interesting that they would just
find like dead lice.
That just that kind of sends achill down my back.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Something else that had to do with ancient Egyptian
culture that I thought wasinteresting.
So obviously we know that theyreally venerated a lot of animal
forms, one of the main onesbeing the cat, and so that came
along with the cult of the catwas also potentially the present
of toxoplasma.
Oh yeah, so toxocysts werefound in some of these mummies,
(08:33):
so interesting.
Right and it's presumed thatbecause these populations had
higher exposures to cats,whether it be through just like
cats in the general area or alsothe mummification of cats, that
they had a higher exposure tocats and toxoplasmosis in
general.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh, that is so interesting If anyone wants to
learn more about toxoplasmosisseason one.
There's a whole episode on itfrom Infectious Science, so
check that out.
It can affect risk-takingbehavior and stuff and it's very
interesting.
It's also not as easy to get asyou think.
Check out that episode if youwant to know more.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
It is.
And then I will say there'splenty of data that states that
these mummies were exposed inpretty high quantities to M
leprae, which we've also done anepisode on.
That's actually the firstepisode of season two.
Go ahead and check it out ifyou haven't already.
And that's mycobacterium leprae.
But in this mummy that theywere specifically analyzing in
(09:25):
this paper, there weren'tactually physical signs of the
infection yet.
They had taken this sample frombone from the mummy, which they
drew the conclusion that it wasjust really early on in the
infection that there weren'tactually signs or manifestations
yet, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
That's so curious that it would be like on bone,
because normally it needs tolive.
Yeah, and it's also colder,colder areas, right, I guess,
though, if it's like bones, likefinger bones or something you
might have it Like, if that'swhere it's coming from.
But yeah, that's veryinteresting.
I know that you can also find alot of evidence of leprosy in
not mummies, but skeletons fromEurope.
(10:00):
Okay, yeah, pretty cool, forsure, mummies you would probably
get more out of, though,because it's like a actual full
body instead of just bones.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah, that's true, and I thought it was cool.
Going into the biochemistry ofthis is that both of the genomes
of hepatitis B, which was alsofound, and M leprosy from this
paper that I was reading both ofthem were fully reconstructed
their genomes.
However, these genomes wereshortened compared to the
strains that we know of today,which really is indicative right
(10:29):
.
So they were saying it'sindicative of, basically, the
ancient form of M lebray isshorter.
It's closer to the root oftheir at least more ancient
organisms of M lebray that theydo have.
And so it's just interesting tosee how the genomes of certain
bacteria and viruses and stufflike that change over time and
how we can kind of trace it backto its root.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah, I thought that was cool.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
That is very neat, yeah, and then we were talking
about the necrobiome also.
Yes, so mummies in general, weknow they do undergo decomposure
, even though they are carefullypreserved.
But the necrobiome itselfconsists of basically the
pathogens that help to decomposethe body, and when you analyze
the necrobiome you really get tosee a lot of what the
(11:16):
environment was around thesebodies, not only when they were
first mummified and firststarted decomposing, but
throughout the era too.
I didn't really go into anyresearch on the necrobiome
because I already had a lot ofinformation, but I thought it
was interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Yeah, I actually have an interesting tidbit to add to
this, so I always just love tobring this up whenever it comes
up in context that from a publichealth standpoint, dead bodies
usually aren't that dangerous tous.
And particularly in a lot ofthe Western world now we have
like a funeral industry aroundhandling bodies and there's kind
of arisen this sort of myththat, like after a natural
disaster or things like that,that like bodies are dangerous
(11:53):
but the bacteria and such thatare causing this decomposition,
not the same stuff that's goingto really infect you.
There are some instances ofinfections that people can have
that can remain viable for alittle bit after death, but it's
not very long.
And if you think about that,that's because something like a
virus needs you know livingcells in order to continue to
(12:13):
replicate.
So, barring some more rareviruses that you're unlikely to
encounter, bodies usually aren'tthat dangerous.
So yeah, so I like to throwthat out there because I think
it's important and it's.
You know, we're myth busting,that's our little myth busting
fun fact.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
Yes, I love that.
No, and that's so true, that'sabsolutely correct.
So, yeah, I'm not going to say,you know, go and bury the next
body you find necessarily.
Please don't just bury a body,you find we have concerns,
however.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
If you just find one.
But I think it's important tobring up in the context,
especially of mummies, when wetalk about anthropogenic mummies
, like people were handlingthese bodies extensively to
prepare them for burial and soclearly there was a different
culture around where bodiesdangerous or not.
So just for anyone who's evercurious, most dead bodies are
not dangerous to you.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Yeah, yep, I love it.
Thanks for bringing that up.
Yeah, another infection that Ithink we're all very aware of
was smallpox.
So smallpox was apparentlyprevalent in the Egyptian
kingdom the new kingdom to beexact between the years 1570 BC
and 1085 BC, and smallpox causedby the variola virus.
(13:20):
Apparently, there's evidencethat King Ramses V, who
apparently only reigned for, Ithink, four-ish years, he was
depicted with smallpox-likepustules on his face.
Oh yeah, so a little culturaltidbit right there, yeah, and.
I would assume you know.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I feel like Compared to like European monarchs that
are like, let me put a quarterinch of makeup on my face to
hide any perceived imperfections.
But of course that makeup wasmade of arsenic, so you end up
with problems.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
That's different.
That's different yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
So, he was depicted with those pox-like bumps on his
face and that really short rolltoo.
I guess potentially, you know,smock pox didn't let him roll
for long.
Yeah, and even the Hittite claytablets accused Egyptian
(14:16):
prisoners of war of passing on adisease that's described
similarly to smallpox that endedup causing this Hittite plague,
essentially, and that plagueitself was described in one of
the tablets as 20 years ofconstant dying.
Yeah, so that sounds verysmallpox-y.
Yes, that does, that does sounda lot like smallpox.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, so that sounds very smallpox-y.
Yes, that does.
That does sound a lot likesmallpox.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yes, two other honorable mentions were
tuberculosis, as we are wellaware of.
Samples between Middle Kingdomand the late period were
analyzed and mycobacteriumtuberculosis was found.
And then this study didspoligotyping.
I don't necessarily know toomuch about what this is, but
(14:48):
from what I could see itassesses direct repeat strains
of bacteria using the PCR todetermine the relatedness
between certain strains.
Gotcha and compared MTB with Mafricanum, so Mycobacterium
africanum, and their conclusionwas that TB potentially
originated from a precursorcomplex related to M africanum.
And their conclusion was thatTB potentially originated from a
(15:09):
precursor complex related to Mafricanum because they were both
found in the mummy itself,that's very interesting.
Yeah, and then the last one Iwanted to mention was plague,
too.
Good old plague, good oldplague.
She's everywhere.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
Anywhere there's rats .
Speaker 4 (15:22):
And where were there rats?
Along the Nile, and so theseNile rats is what they called
them during these huge Nilefloods.
Obviously, the rats are pushedcloser and closer to the human
civilization or the society, andthat just allowed them to
basically spread the flies andspread the fleas and spread the
plague.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah, yeah.
And Egypt was also a verywealthy, wealthy kingdom and
they had surplus grain storeswhen things were good.
And what does that attract?
Rats, if not pests.
Yes, so it attracts rats, soI'm sure that that didn't help
anything as far as any diseasesthat those rodents might've been
carrying.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
There's actually this medical text that I saw a
sample of, from 1500 BC, thatdescribed this plague in Egypt
and it said that the disease hasproduced a bubo and the pus has
petrified.
The disease has hit.
I was like oh, that's rough.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Plague's coming for you, rip.
Yeah, I do kind of wonder ifthey were like exporting grain
or they just exporting diseaseson these rats.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
I wonder if they were like exporting grain or they
just exporting diseases on theserats, and so I was reading also
that a lot of what came fromEgypt was actually incorporated
in the trade also potentiallyhad effects with Europe and then
also Asia, yeah, through trade.
So potentially Egypt justspreading that plague around.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Just not doing its part.
But as always, as you have, andwe see this, you know, in the
modern day just to kind of bringthis into context as you have
war, like you were describing,you certainly see increases in
disease as public healthinfrastructure breaks down.
And as you have trade and wehave globalized trade and you
can get anywhere anywhere in theworld, whoever you trade with
(17:01):
your health is interconnected.
And whoever they trade withyour health is interconnected
and whoever they trade with yourhealth is also interconnected.
So I think that that's you knowsomething.
Just to highlight that that hasexisted for as long as human
civilization has been around.
If we're coming into contactwith each other, we're not only
sharing lovely, amazing thingslike a surplus of grain and a
beautiful culture and, you know,gold and all that jazz, but
we're also sharing the diseasesthat are prevalent in our
(17:22):
population.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Exactly.
We're also susceptible to youknow the same things, and it
really just shows how we are sointerconnected.
Yes, yes, for sure, for sure,but that's really the main stuff
that I have about Egypt.
I know that you had reallyinteresting information on other
ancient bodies.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yes, would you like to?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutelyTake the wheel.
So I'm going to dive intoEuropean mummies, all right, but
first I just want to say that Ifound this out and I was
absolutely floored.
Like this shocked me to thecore.
So, sadly, due to amistranslation and some
misinformation, europeans for atime imported and ate Egyptian
(18:00):
mummies as medicine.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Oh, my days, yeah, oh no.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, so you can look this up.
You can find like littleapothecary things to say, like
mummia, I believe.
A lot of times these mummiescan be coated in like a resin
and they thought that that resinhad like a health property.
So they were like, well, we'lleat it.
And so they just like stole orotherwise acquired mummies and
brought them back to be kind ofmashed into pieces and used in
(18:28):
medicine.
Oh, no.
So yeah, mashed into pieces andused in medicine, so yeah.
So later, as legit and notfraudulent mummies became hard
to find, europeans began to uselocal bodies.
So you know, don't import, butlocal.
Does this sound like anythingyou've ever heard in a grocery
store?
Scarily enough, so this iscalled corpse medicine and it
was a thing in Europe for awhile.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
And was this thought to bring you general health or
was it specifically forsomething?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
So one 1643 remedy for seizures includes a recipe
that calls for a disturbingcentral ingredient the unburied
skulls of three men who died aviolent death.
Jeez, so very specific.
It kind of sounds more likewitchcraft than medicine, which
is kind of wild, because at thattime they were definitely
persecuting witches, but youcould eat bodies and that was
okay.
What's also wild about this isthat in once again a typical
(19:15):
paradigm of colonialism, theywere like wow, it's so savage to
be a cannibal, and yet that isexactly what they were doing for
their health.
Oh fun yeah, so just thought I'dpoint that out.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Totally yeah in other news In other less disgusting
news In other less news.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
So that's my first fun point on Europe and mummies.
My next one is actually notmummies, but it's back to plague
, so it's DNA that's extractedfrom teeth from a London plague
pit.
Oh, plague pit.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Fun.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Okay, a plague pit yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
So at some points in history, so many people were
dying of the plague that theyjust dug mass graves and they
just put them in plague pit, andthat's how that they found that
it was Yersinia pestis thatcaused it.
And so, like we take that, as afact nowadays that it was, you
know, the Black Death and it'sYersinia pestis, but of course,
for a long time no one reallyknew.
Oh, it was the miasma man.
Yeah, no one really knew whatcaused it.
But if we hadn't believed inmiasma you wouldn't have cool
(20:13):
plague, Dr.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
Mask today.
Absolutely, that is hands down.
No one steal it.
My Halloween costume next year.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
It's great.
It's a great Halloween costume.
I respect it.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
I respect it.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
But only if you go like full, like with the cape
and everything.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
Absolutely.
You know, cape cane hat, ohyeah, Just all out.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yep Steampunk.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
I respect it.
I respect it, so yeah.
So now to actual mummies, soactual European mummies.
So I have two examples.
The first I want to talk aboutis the Medici mummies Nice, so
you've probably heard of theMedici, if do now in the United.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
States.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So their organs were removed, the body was cleaned
and then stuffed.
Interestingly enough,researchers recently I believe
it's from 2023, so, like veryrecent found parasite-like
structures on red blood cellsfrom this kind of like preserved
tissue, and so these structures, when examined, were found to
be the malaria parasite,plasmodium falciparum, which is
really interesting that you havethis issue from hundreds of
(21:13):
years ago.
We know that you can preservered blood cells, but to actually
see parasites was wild.
So what's interesting?
I feel like people don't knowthat malaria was endemic in
Europe for a while.
It also was endemic in theUnited States for a very long
time.
There was a lot of big publichealth campaigns to get rid of
that, but with climate change,malaria is likely coming to a
city near you soon.
(21:34):
Oh, no.
Something to keep in mind.
But anyways, the Medici mummythis belonged to, and they kind
of have some trouble likefiguring out who's who, because
of course you didn't necessarilylabel things.
Everybody at the time knew whothey were right, so the Medici
that these red blood cells werefrom probably picked up malaria
when hunting in the marshlandsof Florence, italy.
So because they were basicallyan aristocratic family, they
(21:57):
just had like leisure time tohunt, so because of that they
probably picked up malaria.
Got malaria, yeah Darn, yeah,jeez.
So that's the anthropogenicmummies.
So those are the mummies thatpeople made in Europe.
I didn't find a lot of otherexamples.
I know there are mummieselsewhere in Europe, but the one
that I next wanted to talkabout was a spontaneous mummy
that probably everyone'sfamiliar with is Otzi the Iceman
.
Yes, so some Europeans foundhim when hiking.
(22:20):
That to me sounds likesomething out of a horror novel.
I have actually read a horrornovel with that premise.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Absolutely.
Yeah, imagine, imagine you'rejust going hiking one beautiful
day.
It's nice and cool outside, youknow, you're just having a
great time in the mountains, andthen you come across a buddy.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
A really old dead guy , like a really really old dead
guy, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
So that's how we got our love of Otzi.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, yeah, and Otzi's taught us a lot right
Like and there's so muchinformation on Otzi that I could
not possibly cover it all.
And I believe actually, when Iwas looking, I found someone at
UTMB made like a podcast episodeabout Otzi, like way, like
maybe like 2012 or something.
So I was like, yeah, I didn'tknow, I stumbled across this,
but the point I wanted to bringup for Otzi is that
mitochondrial DNA analysisshowed Borrelia burgdorferi,
(23:08):
which is the bacteria thatcauses.
Lyme disease.
So Lyme disease is reallyreally a big problem in the
United States.
You often get it from exposureto ticks.
It's also a big issue in pets,right?
So if your pets are outside andthey're not on flea and tick
medication, they pick it up andit certainly can cause all kinds
of issues and can just causedamage.
(23:28):
Of course, it's treatable withantibiotics, but what's really
interesting is that because thisdisease was found to be present
in Otzi's bones, that makes himthe first documented case of
Lyme disease in humans.
Wow, yeah so potentially, it'syou know, existed for this
longer, but he's the first.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
How far back does Otzi date to?
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (23:46):
That is a great question.
Look it up.
Yeah, we should look that upreal quick yes, but that is
fascinating.
Yeah, I think it's really cooland, of course, like so, so much
more has been done and ifanyone is interested in seeing
Otzi's body, it is on display.
Oh where.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
I believe in.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Italy.
So you can see it, it's like ina refrigerated case.
Yeah, also speaking mummiesseeing the King Tut.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I mean, there's an exhibit in Houston.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
It's a replica of everything.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
But it's really good.
I went to it like a month ortwo ago and it was really good.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah, it was fantastic.
I went to it, I think last year.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, it's really neat.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Recommend that 100%.
I was going to say, with KingTut speaking of they found two
strains of malaria in this poorman when they were assessing his
body.
Otzi, sorry, going back to Otzinow, he is 5,300 years old.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Wow, so Lyme disease has been with us at least that
long, and I think that'simportant to bring up, because
there was definitely somemisinformation when Lyme first
became an issue in the UnitedStates about where Lyme came
from.
Lyme has been with humans avery long time 5,300 years is a
very long time and he was alsolikely not the first case, right
?
He's just the first case thatwe can prove because we have a
body.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yeah, and that's so interesting.
So I guess Borrelia reallyneeds a very cold climate in
order to survive, and I guessthat's why here in the US it's
predominantly found in theNortheast.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, right, but it it is, oh my gosh.
I grew up in the northeast andit is a major public health
concern because, if you areanywhere where there's taller
grass yeah, oh my gosh and ticksare everywhere, yeah,
everywhere.
I used to go walking on myparents farm and when the nymphs
would be out, you would step onthe ground and it's like the
whole ground would be movingwith them, like you're like
stepping and it's like they looklike little spiders just going
(25:27):
everywhere.
That's crazy.
Interestingly enough, I grew upthere and I have never been
bitten by a tick.
What, never, ever, ever.
And I grew up like working inhayfields, which is tall grass,
you know, being on a farm, I'mout like in the dirt and I never
have been bitten by a tick.
Speaker 4 (25:44):
If Dennis were here, he'd be like at least that you
know of, at least that you knowof, at least that you know of,
at least that you know of, yeah,at least that you know of.
And I think he has said that tome before, but I don't have.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Lyme.
And if I had been bitten by atick in the Northeast, odds are
I wouldn't have Lyme, chancesare getting.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Lyme, yeah, very high , very high.
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
So it's something you have to test, like every pet
for up North a little blood test, oh for sure.
Speaking of permafrost bodies,I want to talk now a little bit
about the 1918 influenza andwhat we learned from spontaneous
mummies.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah.
So, for those who don't know,the 1918 influenza was
incredibly severe.
Oh yeah, killed 20 to 40million people worldwide.
That may not sound a lot like alot to you today, but consider
that the population was muchlower than it is right now.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
It's an incredible amount of people, and people
would just like drop.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
consider that the population was much lower than
it is right now.
Absolutely, it's an incredibleamount of people and people
would just like drop dead in thestreets.
I mean it was absolutely wildCaused, basically these cytokine
storms in the lungs likemassive hemorrhages.
I mean it was gruesome,gruesome.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
That sounds horrible.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, really horrible .
But what's really wild is thatat some point people wanted to
kind of look at the strain andfigure out why it was so bad.
Right yeah, which is importantbecause like influenza, because
of shift and drift, isconstantly going to nag at the
heels of humans, so you mighthear that flu shots every year
(27:10):
are only like 40, 60% effective.
As someone who has actuallytruly had the flu when I was 16,
I was in the hospital for twoweeks and I'm otherwise a very
healthy individual and I was 16,right, so like you, should be
able to shake stuff off whenyou're a teenager.
And if we did not have modernmedicine, I would absolutely be
dead.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
I was on an IV Like it was awful.
The flu is no joke Absolutely,like it was awful.
Yeah, the flu is no jokeAbsolutely.
And the reason you need shotsevery year is because the strain
constantly changes every singleyear.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
And that's also because we pick it up from a lot
of different animal reservoirswhere you can see change
occurring.
You've definitely heard ofavian flu, probably at this
point Also swine flu, thingslike that.
So you know where we pick up.
A pathogen does matter, but Ijust want to point out that I
always get my flu shot and Ithink it's really important to
do that, because if there's anychance it's going to reduce the
(27:57):
severity and duration of it,absolutely do it, because I
think a lot of people mistakegetting the flu for like what.
It is actually like a cold orlike like a you know a GI thing
and in reality the flu willknock you down.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
It is bad.
It is not just the cold, it isnot just a sinus infection Like
the flu is hard on your body andwe have deaths every single
year from the flu even in theUnited.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
States and you don't really hear about them because
it's basically kind of whatCOVID has become and that it's
this socially acceptable numberof deaths which is actually
really sad.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Yeah, it is Absolutely so, if you can do
your part to help yourself andalso help others and help your
community.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, please do, please do so.
Anyways, back to this 1918influenza, which was really
severe.
So RNA from the 1918 influenzawas obtained from a lung biopsy
from a victim of the flu who hadbeen buried in the permafrost.
So basically, here's the story.
So in November of 1918, theinfluenza pandemic struck the
(28:54):
Seward Peninsula in Alaska in anInuit village called Brevig
Mission.
So according to historicalrecords, the 1918 flu spread
through the village in aboutfive days and within those five
days it killed 85% of the adultpopulation, oh my gosh, yeah, so
massively just wiping peopleout.
(29:15):
So victims because there were somany were buried in a mass
grave in the permafrost.
79 years later, in 1997, fourvictims were exhumed from this
mass grave by Dr Johan Hulten,who basically received
permission from the villagecouncil to dig Frozen lung
tissue, was biopsied and thegrave was closed, and so that
(29:39):
was kind of the first time thiswas done.
He then later ended up goingback a second time and doing
this, dug deeper and then againtook lung biopsy tissue.
This time, one of the bodiesthat was exhumed was an Inuit
female who was positive for theinfluenza RNA.
She had significant fatdeposits around her lungs which
(29:59):
had protected the lungs morefrom degradation.
They were able to basically getthe viral RNA from this lung
tissue.
However, the RNA templatesgreater than 120 nucleotides
could not be amplified from this.
So that means that it's not alive virus, but that it could be
sequenced, and so that wasimportant because we really
wanted to figure out whatsimilarly was circulating and
(30:21):
when could this happen again?
This is, of course, a reallybig topic that's alive in the
world right now, as we thinkabout avian flu.
So that goal of that researchwas to basically find out the
origin of 1918 flu and if itcould happen again.
They basically determined thatthe 1918 influenza virus was
similar to swine and birdviruses, but thankfully, as we
have previously said, deadbodies are not super dangerous,
(30:43):
and so the virus was of coursenot alive 79 years later when he
dug it up, thank you.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Thank you, science.
But moving from permafrostbodies back on over to the
Americas, here we are going totake a little dive into Peruvian
mummies.
Yes, so the first paper I cameacross really spoke about the
gut microbiome of the IncanEmpire, so this is around the
10th and 14th centuries.
Thought it was really cool,because the microbiome, or the
(31:16):
bacteria that were found tocomprise this microbiome that
was assessed, actually werebacteria that were resistant
already to many of the strongestantibiotics that we use today.
So some of those includedvancomycin, penicillin,
tetracyclines.
One bug that was specificallymentioned was enterococcus,
which is a very strong bacteria.
It's resistant to a lot ofthings, and so the question that
(31:36):
was brought into play here waswhy are they resistant?
Is this a natural resistant,like it makes sense, our modern
antibiotics come from naturalsources, like we've previously
spoken about, or are there otherforces at play?
Like were there Peruvianantibiotics back in the day,
during?
Speaker 3 (31:56):
the Incan Empire.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
So I thought that was really interesting to bring up,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
And also, I'm sure, very hard to draw conclusions on
it because, again, you're onlyworking with what you have.
But yeah, I think that that'simportant to keep in mind.
We did a whole episode on thisthat bacteria produce these
antibiotics because it's like,hey, we're living in close
quarters and I need to kill offcompetition.
So sometimes these things dojust arise naturally, yes, and
(32:24):
bacteria just are kind of wildin the fact that they can just
kind of pick up DNA from a lotof different places.
Oh my gosh, that's reallyinteresting.
Medicinally, they could havepotentially been using something
, or it could have just been adiet thing.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
It's hard to tell.
Yeah, exactly, and I alwayswonder.
There are so many bugs in thisworld, there are so many
pathogens, there are so manydiseases and illnesses.
I understand that the mortalityrate was so much higher back in
the day, before antibiotics,before modern medicine, but
still so many people survivedand persevered.
You would think that thesepeople contracted in their
lifetime at least a couple ofinfections, or a couple.
(32:57):
You know what I mean.
So what were the ways that theywere able to combat these
illnesses?
Absolutely?
I've always wondered that.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that we often like to
discount, potentially, remediesthat have been passed down
generation to generation, thatpeople used as a way of caring
for anyone who is sick.
And I think what's interestingto keep in mind is that if you
really look at a lot of thesesystems of accessing care, the
focus is on that there's someonethere providing care, like if
(33:27):
someone's doing acupuncture onyou, they are there with you for
like 40 minutes doing it,whereas, like in Western
medicine, you might see a doctorfor 20 minutes if you're lucky.
And that's due to a lot ofreasons, right, and that's not
physician's fault.
There's a lot of pressures onthe system that shape it that
way.
I was in China for a bit in 2019and we had a lecture on this.
They're not really teas, butthese simmering things that you
(33:49):
have and someone is taking them.
It's like a traditional Chinesemedicine medication, but what
is very effective and that theytalk about is like it's not just
that we're prescribingsomething to people, which often
makes people feel good, right,placebo effect is a real thing,
but there is someone theremaking it for them to then take,
and I think that that'ssomething that ancient cultures
probably did better than we doand that there's someone who's
(34:11):
there providing care.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Yeah, and there's an emphasis on like, the actual
physical providing the care.
You know what I mean.
It's not just like here's yourremedy next, here's your remedy
next.
Absolutely, it's so importantto have that connection with
your patient and to be able tolike, recognize your patient as
a human being and as someone whoalso needs to be provided care
and they're coming to you,vulnerable, and you need to
(34:34):
acknowledge that and you need toappreciate that.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
And providing culturally confident care.
Right, that's such a huge thingand that's something that it's
marvelous that we live in such adiverse, fascinating community.
But it can also mean that whenyou're seeking care, you might
be seeking care from somebodywho doesn't come from your
background and therefore mightnot instinctively kind of be
like.
This is how I meet people wherethey're at, Whereas if you were
(34:58):
back in more ancient times,you're in a more isolated
setting, which is not entirelyisolated, but much more isolated
than today, and that wasprobably different and the
expectations around what thatcare looks like.
So people might've been happierwith it.
We don't know.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
We'll never know, but I think that's a good
conversation.
That's a topic to touch, yeah.
My second point, though, withthe peruvian mummies, was
basically based on this paperthat assessed this one body that
was found.
It was a young woman betweenthe ages of 20 and 25.
Is what she was assumed to havebeen when she passed.
She passed from blunt forcetrauma, yeah, but they were
thinking in this paper that shewas part of a ritualistic
homicide.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, because her body wasprepared in the way and it was
(35:41):
placed in a way that would beassumed, and then the actual
blunt force trauma came fromwhat they seem to be clubbing to
the head.
Oh ouch, yeah, it's prettyrough.
But basically the fractures inthe skull and everything led
them to believe that the traumathat the skull sustained was
done pre-mortem instead ofpost-mortem, because this body
was also kind of damaged duringWorld War II, apparently from a
(36:03):
bombing, and World War IIbecause this body was brought
from Peru to Germany and then itwas kept there for a while but
not analyzed, it was justpreserved.
Damage happened but notanalyzed.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
It was just preserved .
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Damage happened, years went on Wow, and then in
the 2000s, they started actuallydiving into it.
Oh, that's wild what the bodycould tell us, yeah, but
basically what was found in thisbody was T cruzi or Chagas.
Oh yeah, so T cruzi causes whatis called Chagas disease, and
it is very prevalent, especiallyin South America, and what
(36:37):
happens is the kissing bug, Ithink is what it's called right,
yeah kissing bug, assassin'sbug.
Yeah, basically comes in whatyou study in medical schools.
There's these two bites thatare by the eye, because it comes
and it kind of gets to the faceand then that's how the I
believe it's attracted to CO2,which is why it goes to the face
, gets to the face, and thenthat's how the.
I believe it's attracted to CO2, which is why it goes to the
face.
Ah, that makes sense.
I think that's why.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Okay, yeah, but I think that's why.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
That's okay, that makes sense and that's how you
contract T cruzi.
But this body was assessed forT cruzi predominantly because on
paleoradiology the body wasfound to have cardiac
hypertrophy, so enlargement ofthe heart, a distended bowel,
thickened bowel and alsodistended rectum, and in the
(37:18):
rectum there was actuallyevidence of massive fibrosis
which, in order for there to bea fibrosis of that extent, this
disease had to be going onchronically.
Yeah, it's a chronic pathology,and so what they did was they
actually took samples of thesmooth muscle within there,
because the fibrotic musclethere's a chronic pathology, and
so what they did was theyactually took samples of the
smooth muscle within there,because the fibrotic muscle
there's no nucleus.
You can't really get DNA butfrom the smooth muscle, and
(37:41):
that's what they histologicallyexamined first and they found
that there were intracellularparasitic inclusions within that
.
And then the DNA analysisrevealed T cruzi.
That is wild, yeah.
So this poor woman was presumedto have chronic T-Cruzi
(38:01):
infection.
And yeah, she also had othersigns so the cardiomegaly so
enlarged heart is a big sign ofT-Cruzi the rectal findings, the
fibrosis and the enlargement ofthe bowel, and then
hepatomegaly.
So she also had an enlargedliver and just other signs that
really pointed towards theT-Cruise infection.
And then once they did the DNAanalysis it came out positive.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
That is really, really wild.
Speaker 4 (38:22):
Oh, yeah, and this was a long time ago.
I also read more socially aboutwhat they figured out about the
body.
So basically, from her hairthey could assess that her diet
had changed recently before herdeath.
Okay, prepared, yeah, eitherprepared, or they found some
like carbon markers, I think, inher body that indicated that
(38:44):
she predominantly had ingested aseafood diet all her life.
So they had put together thatshe lived on the coast of Peru.
She lived on the coast of Peruand then before her death,
within a recent timeframe shehad moved further inland because
of certain markers that hadchanged.
Yeah, so I thought that waspretty interesting.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
I wonder what my hair would say about my diet.
I was going to say Sugarprobably.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Also, when they started assessing her hair, I
was like, hmm, makes me think ofdrug tests, and so they did do
some drug tests to see if it waspart of a ritual been given any
kind of hallucinogenics oranything like that, and she
hadn't been.
That sounds very painful tohave been ritualistically
murdered.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
I also do want to note that that is not something
that's specific to Peru.
In Egypt, this didn't continuethrough all the dynasties, but
for some of the first, when thepharaoh had passed, there would
be this mass killing of peopleto basically ensure that heir to
the throne oftentimes a youngindividual right, because people
(39:46):
did not live long, that therewould be no challengers to their
throne.
So they often just killed offmass amounts of people as part
of a ritual.
So it's not unique.
And also, if you think aboutthe bog bodies, europeans also
did this.
So, like you see this, whereverwe find evidence of human
civilization that people werekilled ritualistically.
Speaker 4 (40:04):
I feel like I've read somewhere, I heard somewhere,
that also pharaohs were buriedwith their court essentially, or
at least members of their court, and those members were buried
alive when it came down to it.
Is that true?
I?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
don't know if they were buried alive.
I don't know.
I do know that in some casespeople were definitely buried
with what was assumed to be kindof like concubines.
Okay, but they certainly buriedanimals right, so you had use
of the animals in the afterlifeand so that was done very
intentionally, yeah, and thefact to go through and mummify
(40:35):
some of them right, like theamount of cat mummies they found
from Egypt is wild.
I would be interested to see thedifference in toxoplasma from
then to now, based on thosemummies.
I bet somebody's looked at that.
That's probably been done.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
So maybe that's a whole other side.
Tangent is animal mummies andwhat we can learn from animal
reservoirs.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
Let us know if you want to hear that episode.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Yeah, but just kind of goingoff of really quickly.
I know that you touched onmalaria being found in the
Italian mummies.
I touched on malaria beingfound in Egyptian mummies.
Malaria is such a debilitatingthing at times because it is
such a strong infection.
Basically, what malaria does isit's transmitted to a human
(41:18):
when the Anopheles mosquitobites you.
Then the parasite itself goesand remains dormant in your
liver and then, once it's ready,it comes and infects your red
blood cells yes, and it lysesthem after it's done with them,
which means it explodes them.
Exactly.
As you can imagine that doesnot feel good.
It does not feel good.
You need to erode blood cells,because your blood cells carry
(41:38):
oxygen throughout your body, andso that's why people who have
malaria can sometimes experiencelike really severe fatigue and
weakness and tiredness as wellas cyclical fevers.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
So when you think about such a high population
having infections like malaria,like it has such a big effect on
the actual society itself, whenyou think about it, you know
what I mean.
Yes, and I know that malaria isnot by any means gone today,
like you've made a good point instating, and in fact it's like
such a big issue and the rangeis increasing.
(42:12):
Yeah, as the world warms up,it's such a big issue in, and
the range is increasing as theworld warms up, big issue in
certain parts of the world andit's so important to note not
only just like the healtheffects of malaria on these
populations, but also the socialeffects that malaria has.
It can be crippling.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Oh, absolutely.
And speaking of, you mentionedChagas and we've actually
discussed potentially doing anepisode on this.
But Chagas for a while in somecountries was really sort of
condemned because it wasconsidered that you might have
been part of the guerrillamovement, so you were more
likely to be exposed to Chagas.
Of course, if you are livingpotentially more rural areas,
(42:47):
yes, you might be living moretemporary housing, and so it
might have been a sign that youwere part of a political group
that was essentially trying tooust the other political group,
and so people had a lot ofapprehension towards presenting
with this disease because therewas this fear that you would be
associated with that and thenpersecuted right, and so there
was a lot of persecution aroundthis disease because of that for
(43:10):
a while.
And also, chagas is reallymostly seen in South American
countries, but again, that canchange as the range of the
kissing bug changes.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
So yeah, I know it's found in.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Texas.
You can find it in Texas.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Yeah, it's definitely found in Texas.
So yeah, it's here, Jeez manyeah.
And it just shows like climatechange doesn't just affect, you
know, certain things that wepredominantly think it affects.
It has a huge effect on ourhealth and on global health, as
is, and with you know, andeveryone's health yes, now and
in the future.
And with a warming climateglobally comes broader access to
(43:44):
different environments forthese bugs, and so you just have
to be more aware of that.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think that that's a greatpoint and that just brings us
full circle with why it'simportant to look at ancient
pathogens because it tells usabout the world at that time,
and now we are changing andediting our world and our
climate so much so it'simportant to look at how
globalization and warfare andwhat was present in your
(44:13):
environment at the time, becausethat's going to change and it's
changed from ancient times tonow, and now it's changing at an
ever more rapid pace.
Speaker 4 (44:20):
Yeah, absolutely A hundred percent agree.
Great way to end this episode,I think.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah, thank you for joining us for this episode of
Infectious Science.
I'm Camila Du, one of yourco-hosts.
Speaker 4 (44:31):
And I'm Christina Rios, your other co-hosts.
Thank you guys so much and wewill see you guys next time on
Infectious Science.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Heck, yeah.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for listening to theInfectious Science podcast.
Be sure to hit subscribe andvisit infectiousscienceorg to
join the conversation, accessthe show notes and to sign up
for our newsletter and receiveour free materials.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
If you enjoyed this new episode of Infectious
Science, please leave us areview on Apple Podcasts and
Spotify, and go ahead and sharethis episode with some of your
friends.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Also, don't hesitate to ask questions and tell us
what topics you'd like us tocover for future episodes.
To get in touch, drop a line inthe comments section or send us
a message on social media.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
So we'll see you next time for a new episode and in
the meantime, see you next timefor a new episode and in the
meantime, stay happy, stayhealthy, stay interested.
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