May 14, 2025 • 50 mins
What does four decades in direct response marketing teach about building genuine influence? Brian Kurtz shares the wisdom that helped him sell over a billion dollars worth of products "$39 at a time" while cultivating relationships that have lasted throughout his entire career.
Brian pulls back the curtain on his transition from direct mail expert to digital marketing adopter, revealing why he succeeded where many contemporaries failed. The secret? Becoming a "sponge" for new information while maintaining the rigorous marketing discipline he developed through years of paying for postage. This balance between adaptability and core principles forms the backbone of his approach to business.
At the heart of Brian's philosophy is his "41-39-20 rule" – a critical framework that emphasizes audience over content. "It's not about your content first," he insists. "It's about are you talking to the right audience?" This audience-first mentality guided his work with Bottom Line Personal newsletter, which once reached a million paid subscribers, and continues to inform his current ventures.
Most powerful is Brian's perspective on relationships. Rejecting what he calls "strategic schmoozing," Brian advocates for building meaningful "relationship capital" – connections developed through genuine contribution rather than transactional networking. His mantra "I contribute to connect" stands in refreshing contrast to today's often superficial influencer culture.
Now running Titans Accelerator, a virtual mastermind with 250 top entrepreneurs, Brian continues playing the long game. His thoughtful approach to influence offers a sustainable alternative for anyone tired of chasing algorithmic success. Learn how to build influence that lasts by focusing on lifetime value, renewal, and the power of genuine connections.
Influencers: Add a powerful monetisation strategy to your audience. Click Here
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Walt Bayliss (00:00):
Today's episode of the Influencer Empires podcast
is brought to you by the EmpireProgram with White Label Suite
powering our influencers andbuilding their empires.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank youso much for joining us on the
show.
Today we have a bona fideexpert, somebody who has cut his
teeth in direct marketing forthe last four decades.
He's an OG when it comes tocreating lists online.
(00:23):
When building influence inamongst his followers.
He is followed by thousands ofpeople.
He is the best-selling authorof the book Overdeliver, which
is available on Amazon, withhundreds of five-star reviews
and people saying that he's thenumber one entrepreneur's manual
, something to really take intoaccount.
He now runs the Titans ofMarketing, an invitation-only
(00:45):
group which has got over 250 ofthe world's best entrepreneurs
as members.
He is an incredible leader inthe copy space and somebody who
is forging the path when itcomes to driving your business
as an entrepreneur.
He is none other than BrianKurtz.
Brian, thank you so much forjoining us on the show.
Brian Kurtz (01:03):
Well, that is quite an introduction.
I don't know if I can live upto all of that, but I'm really
pleased to be here.
I met your partner, johan, andtold me about this podcast that
you're doing and I love what youguys are doing.
I mean 40 years.
People might be saying, oh,this guy's an old fogey, which I
am.
I've been doing this directmarketing thing for 44 years and
(01:34):
you know I start, I cut myteeth in direct mail and I did
catch on to this internet thingand email marketing and social
media marketing.
So I'm no Luddite and I'm not.
You know.
I'm not someone to dismiss asthe old fogey, but I am an old
fogey.
Not someone to dismiss as theold fogey, but I am an old fogey
.
And so the way I justify myexistence is to say look, you
know I'll be.
You know, being 67 years oldsays it could be 67 years of one
(01:56):
year's experience or it couldbe 67 years of cumulative
experience.
And I would like to think thatI've done the latter.
And the way I've done thelatter is to hang out with
people like you, and I'mbringing it back to you because
when I get an opportunity to beon a podcast like this or
(02:16):
someone in my mastermind, myTitans Accelerator mastermind,
with 250 members, as youmentioned.
I want to learn from them.
I mean, they want me to teachthem, and you know the idea of
you know teaching being a oneway street is just nuts and it's
never been that way for me.
So I'm a lifelong learner.
When, when a lot of the people Igrew up with in direct mail in
(02:39):
the 1980s a lot of them gave upI mean, some of them died since
then because it's been a longtime, which is a failure recipe,
right, exactly.
But some of them just died,figuratively or emotionally,
because they saw this internetthing coming and they got scared
(03:00):
.
They said I don't know this,it's unknown.
I was in that boat, scared, youknow they.
They said I don't know this,it's unknown, I was in that boat
.
So what did I do?
I looked at it.
This is early.
I mean, I was an early adopter,not that I was an expert at all
.
I was an expert in direct mail,I was an expert in copy, I was
an expert in list building, allof those things, but in the
terrestrial world, in the youknow, the offline world, and
(03:26):
when the internet came about, itwas like.
You know, this is the ultimatedirect response medium.
It's like, and it's reallydirect and it's immediate and
the feedback you'll get isimmediate.
And all of a sudden I said Igotta, I gotta be a sponge, I
gotta learn it.
And you know, look, there werea lot of imposters then, as
there are now a lot of peopleclaiming they're the be all, end
all with everything.
So I think I'm a good vetting.
(03:48):
I'm good at vetting people.
I have a good bullshit antenna,so I kind of know if someone is
full of shit, and not always.
I get snowed a lot too, likeanybody else.
But because I just go to theexperts and I I learned that at
my original company boardroom,which we always had experts
(04:08):
experts in our marketing that wework with, but experts in our
public.
We publish newsletters and booksthat were interviews with
experts and the idea of experts,it's easy to say, tougher to
deliver on, because you need tohave bullshit antenna, you need
to know who the experts are andthey have to be vetted by people
who you respect and who arealso experts.
(04:31):
So it's a, it's an expertcircle, as it were, and I think
I've run my life that way for myentire business career and it's
paid off.
You know, not that.
You know I'm not.
You know, I know this is aboutinfluencers.
We're going to talk about aboutbeing coming an influencer and
that everybody wants to grow upand be an influencer.
Now, um, I never thought aboutbeing an influencer.
(04:53):
I did want to influence people.
I did want to share my what Iknew with people and let them
share back with me.
But that that's influence, man.
I mean, that's the ultimateinfluence.
You know, it's definitelyinfluence.
Anyway, that was a quickpreamble just based on your
introduction.
Walt Bayliss (05:10):
No, I love it.
Thank you, I appreciate itDiving in.
I always say I've got a list ofquestions, you know, when we're
running the podcast, but theworst thing I can do is refer to
them because I'd much prefer tojust understand from what
you're saying.
So there was a couple of thingsthere that you said.
Number one was you decided tobecome a sponge and then the
other thing was that you're alifelong learner.
(05:31):
Looking at where you're atright now, Brian, and thinking
about what's happening, what'snext, what you've worked on,
what's hit, what's missed, whatdo you wish you knew when you
got started.
Brian Kurtz (05:43):
Ooh, you know I, you know I when I.
Well, if I look, if I knew, ifI knew AI was coming, I would
have been.
I would have been a genius in1985, right, if I knew email was
coming.
You know anything that'sfuturistic or technology based
or not futuristic, but justtechnology based anything.
(06:06):
I mean you know the the amountof progress we've made in
marketing since I started it's.
You know it's a differencebetween a horse and buggy and
you know um, you know uh, a jetplane or whatever, or a rocket
ship.
So I think I think I probablycould have anticipated the pace
(06:28):
of change more, because even Iwas not fast to the trigger
compared to some people, but Iwas faster than most because, as
I said, most of the people Igrew up with in the direct mail
world they thought it wouldnever end.
I saw it ending.
I mean that I did.
I did have that much foresight,but I don't think that I
(06:50):
realized that.
You know speed ofimplementation is important.
I didn't understand that asmuch because you know you grow
up doing direct mail, which ispainful in a way, when you think
about it.
You know it's like chapterthree of OverDeliver is titled
how Paying Postage Made Me aBetter Marketer, and it's not
because I want people to dodirect mail, it's because the
(07:13):
discipline that it takes tospend the kind of money on
printing and postage and puttingstuff in the mail physical mail
takes a certain level ofmarketing sense, but it also can
slow you down.
So that when and I'm trying toget to an answer to your
question because it's difficult,but I do think that it was
(07:33):
probably not understanding thatwhile I wanted the discipline, I
wanted to create discipline inall of my online marketing that
I've done my entire career Iprobably could have been faster
on the trigger on some stuff,like when I started seeing
online courses come about and Ihad an idea for a course I
didn't jump on and I had a goodidea.
(07:54):
I was still at boardroom at thetime and there was a course we
were coming up with for retireesand man, I just remember that
one in particular.
I could have jumped on that andit would have been fantastic.
So you know, and I didn't, andit never happened and then I
left Wardroom or whatever.
Now I don't have regrets aboutthat, but that's probably, you
(08:15):
know, seeded in where I was.
Another thing was that notunderstanding early on the
relationship, the realrelationship between list,
audience, offer and creative,and when I found the 40-40-20
rule, which is that the successof any marketing campaign
(08:37):
depends 40% on the list, 40% onthe offer and 20% on the
creative and the messaging.
That doesn't mean the creativeis half as important, it just
means the creative is the leastimportant until it's not.
And what I mean by that is thatthe list and and I was in the
right place because I was a listguy early on I did list
segmentation.
I was all into the audience.
(08:57):
Everything was about theaudience and anybody wants to be
an influencer.
It's about audience man.
It's not about your contentfirst.
It's about are you talking tothe right audience?
And what I did was in my bookOverdeliver, I changed the
40-40-20 rule to the 41-39-20rule, and why I did that is that
I wanted to emphasize that 41%the list is the most important
(09:21):
thing Knowing who your audienceis, knowing who you need to
reach, what are their pains,what are their pleasures, what
is going on in their minds.
Gene Schwartz, the author ofBreakthrough Advertising, which
I have the exclusive rights toit's a book that was written in
1966, talks about this in detailand that's why I love the book
so much and that's why I do aBreakthrough Advertising boot
(09:42):
camp and I'm just obsessed withaudience and list.
Now, the interesting thing whyI said the creative is the least
important until it's not, isthat every great promotion that
I did that had the biggest liftswas because of the creative.
But it was because ofworld-class creative that was
(10:05):
going to the best list with thebest offer, and I proved it time
and again If you have theperfect list and you have a
mediocre offer and a mediocresales letter or creative, you'll
make some sales.
You'll make some money.
Now, making money is not theonly criteria.
You want to have lifetime value.
You want to have recurringcustomers.
(10:26):
You want to have people comingback to you time and again.
Influencers absolutely, youdon't want people coming to you.
You want to be a one-trick pony.
You don't want to be a one-hitwonder.
You want to have people comingback and back and back.
So the opposite, you know.
So I said the best creative, thethe the best creative to an
audience.
That's not so.
(10:47):
The one I mentioned was that ifyou have the best list with a
mediocre offer and mediocrecreative, that means that you'll
make some sales.
The opposite is not true.
If you have the best creativeand a lousy offer and a lousy
list, you're going to make zero.
And I haven't proven it becauseI was always list first and
(11:10):
that's why I emphasize it somuch in my book and why I
emphasize it when I'm on apodcast where I talk about,
especially to younger marketerswho don't get, that they think
it's all about content creation.
Content creation is veryimportant.
I'm not saying it's not, butcontent for the sake of content,
with no audience.
You know you're, you're likeyou know you're, you're twisting
(11:31):
in the wind.
I mean, that's a broad way tolook at it.
Walt Bayliss (11:34):
But you're not able to to, to, to share it with
anyone.
So there's there's three thingsthere.
There's you mentioned AI.
You wish you'd been able to tolook at AI, pull the trigger
faster and understand theprinciples of the 41-39-20 rule
faster.
That would have made adifference to you.
So, knowing or thinking about Iwould have implemented more
(11:55):
faster, probably.
Brian Kurtz (11:56):
I still implement it over time, so I don't have
big regrets about those things,but yeah, I mean I would have
been a success.
Let's put it that way, thosethings, but yeah, I mean I would
have been a success.
Let's put it that way.
Walt Bayliss (12:06):
How is that shaping your decisions today,
brian Again, thinking aboutthose lessons learned implement
online AI, all of the stuff, thelist what are you doing now
that those lessons are beingreflected in?
Brian Kurtz (12:19):
Great question and it actually ties into what you
told me before you turned therecording on, Because you said
that if you had one thing thatyou wanted to do would be
podcasting, and then you rattledoff all these amazing people
that you've interviewed the nasaguy, you know you, just it's
like you, you never had thatopportunity.
Well, in marketing I've hadthat opportunity, yeah, and
(12:42):
that's how, and so I justdoubled down on that.
So when I, my masterminds and Ihad a live mastermind, I have a
virtual mastermind and mymasterminds the way I would
describe them is that I'mlooking for all the what's I can
find.
I'm looking for all the what'sI can find.
What's a what?
What's a what?
(13:03):
A.
What would be marketing onAmazon?
A.
What would be Facebook?
A.
What would be direct mail?
A.
What would be Google AdWords?
A.
What can be anything?
A.
What could be a billboard?
A.
What could be, you know, theback of yogurt lids if you want
to test that, which I did, andit was only a good idea at the
time, but the idea of everythingis testable and everything out
(13:25):
there and you need to have the X.
I mentioned experts before, sothat's how I've accelerated,
because I don't, I don't knowthat.
I mean I know a lot because Isaid I have 44 years of
cumulative experience workingwith the best of the best,
learning all the way.
But, man, you know, I had, Ihad somebody present on my
(13:46):
mastermind, at my mastermindlast week, and he just created
this incredible personal chatGPT mirror image of himself and
he demoed it for the group.
He had 80 people on the call.
He demoed it and it was likeblowing me away.
It was like I was like a kid ina candy store.
(14:06):
So I guess the way that I knowthat I'm implementing and I'm
moving forward because I don'thave to do anything.
I mean I don't have a businessthat requires me to go on
YouTube and get 3 million views.
My business doesn't requirethat.
I could do that, but I don't.
I just blog to, you know,20,000 people every week and and
(14:27):
I get, you know, 70% open ratesand a lot of engagement.
That that turns me on andthat's that's my life.
But I think that you know, butyou, but you just extrapolate
that how do you get the 3million followers?
It's because your content is socompelling.
In fact, I just was on a callwith one of my masterminds that
(14:47):
I pay to be in and the guy whowas.
They had a guest speaker andthis guy's going to speak at my
mastermind too.
I'll throw out his name,because he's awesome.
His name is Evan Carmichael.
Oh, I've spoken to him.
He was one of my interviewersTalk about influencer.
I mean, he's like Mr Beastwithout being Mr Beast, in a way
, and so his YouTube expertise.
(15:09):
It's so profound in itssimplicity.
It's like he was just talkingto this group of high-end
marketers and just talking aboutdeveloping content and knowing
your audience.
It was like wow, I've heardthis before but, knowing that
he's done it, I want him, like,that's why I want him to come to
(15:30):
my mastermind.
So he's a Watt, he's the Wattof YouTube.
And so and he's coming.
He's coming in a few weeks, soI'm just so.
So I mean, it's a long-windedanswer and I think I answered
your question pretty well, whichis you must find, and you got
it, and you got to have thebullshit antenna up because
people will claim, like anybodywho's ever said to me, I can, I
(15:55):
can be your social media agencyfor any social media, any, any
kind of social media.
I run away, run away, notbecause I don't think they're
competent or that they know alot of stuff, because the thing
is, you know, um, um,specialization beats general,
(16:15):
general, generalists every dayof the week, and I want
specialists in everything that Ido, and I learned that really
early on in direct mail.
So in the eighties I often saythat advertising opportunities
were finite.
You know, you had direct mail,you had TV, you had radio, you
had, you know, print publicationadvertising, then you had stuff
(16:38):
like billboards and, just youknow, terrestrial advertising.
Now advertising opportunitiesare infinite.
Nobody can be an expert ineverything, whereas I think in
the 80s it was hard too.
But what I decided early on andthis was a lesson that I've
taken and how I apply it todayis this going to the experts
(16:59):
going to specialists, becausethere were direct marketing
agencies even in the 1980s whosaid one stop shopping, I'll do
your media buying, I'll do yourcopywriting and your creative.
And there was never an agencythat I would.
I wouldn't work with an agencyif.
If you paid me because you payme and I lose all my money, I
(17:19):
lose the money that you paid mebecause and I'll use a good
example copywriters.
Copywriting is not a commodity.
Copywriting is a specializedskill that if you do it well and
you're an A-list copywriter, ifyou're working in an agency,
you're generally not that good.
I'm not saying I'm not puttingdown anybody any copywriter who
(17:41):
works in an agency it's a goodjob, you can get a lot of work,
you can make a good salary.
But the A-list copywriterscould make millions in royalties
and the kinds of money and wepay them because I wasn't going
to go to an agency.
So I had my list brokers whocould give me my list work I had
.
I had.
I had copywriters who were thebest of the best, who I paid top
(18:03):
dollar for and they were worthevery penny.
And so the idea of one stopshopping was a lesson I learned
early on, and today that's onsteroids because we only we had
we had so little media comparedto today.
You know everything, everythingis a medium today, right?
So that's so that, plus that,everything is a lot to me has
(18:25):
really, really been the key formy personal education the
education of the people in mymasterminds, because I'm not
going to be able to teach themabout AdWords better than Perry
Marshall can.
I'm not gonna be able to teachthem about YouTube better than
Evan Carmichael can.
I'm not gonna be able to teachthem about Amazon than I.
(18:47):
Don't know if you know DylanFrost, but he's an expert on
selling on Amazon and webinars.
I can't teach you webinars likeDylan Frost can.
I can't teach you productlaunch formula or launching
online like Jeff Walker can.
So I can't teach you quizfunnels like Ryan Levesque can.
I've had them all at mymasterminds.
They're all friends.
I have relationships with allof them.
(19:08):
Not bragging it's not braggingif you know it and did it, but
I'm not talking about being asponge.
I bring them in and I'm as mucha student as everybody in my
group, so that I think that'sthe key and I hope I answered
that question.
I don't want to go too roundabout, but the idea of of the
watts is really the way to andexperts and specialization.
(19:32):
I think it's all up in up inthat and it's worked for me.
Walt Bayliss (19:36):
I love it and I love also like one of the things
that you're famous for isempowering the long game of
entrepreneurialism, and I'd liketo dive into that a little bit
more.
So we're talking about bringingin experts to learn from in
those different environments.
Obviously, masterminds are amassive part of your life these
(19:57):
days and developing thatentrepreneurial spirit in the
long game.
Let's dive into that a littlebit.
So I want to start with thelong game, because that's
something that you're actuallyyou're famous for quoting it's
on the front of the bookdeveloping that in the long game
.
So tell me about your thoughtsthere in terms of building that
list, that audience, thatfollowing and treating it like
that long.
The long game.
So tell me about your thoughtsthere in terms of building that
(20:18):
list, that audience, thatfollowing and treating it like
that long-term asset.
Brian Kurtz (20:20):
You know it started very humbly but early because
the business I was in in 1982was subscriptions.
We were selling subscriptionsto a print newsletter called
Bottom Line Personal, thelargest general consumer print
newsletter in Bottom LinePersonal, the largest general
consumer print newsletter in thecountry.
It became that over time, notin 82.
(20:41):
But you know in the 90s we hada million subscribers at one
point Print.
I mean sending out a million Amillion paying subscribers guys.
A million paid subscribers.
And I remember it was.
Sometimes, you know, you lookat your life in moments right,
and there was a moment where Irealized, well, the long game is
(21:02):
multifaceted, but in terms ofbusiness and numbers, I'll do
that one first and then I'll doit in terms of people.
But in terms of business andnumbers, it was all about
renewals for me.
So when I was, I remembersitting in the office with Marty
Edelston, who was the founderof boardroom, my ultimate mentor
made me a partner in thebusiness after 10 years.
(21:22):
So I was, I was an owner in thecompany after 10 years.
But I remember, you know, afterI've been there for 10 years
and we were sitting in hisoffice and we're looking at the
spreadsheet of of, you know, thethe&L for the company, profit
and loss for the company, andwe're looking at, like, all the
new subscribers coming in, orall the new we sold books too
(21:43):
all the new book buyers and allthe new business, and basically
all of that was, you know,losing money in the short term.
And then we looked at the linewhere it said renewals and
continuity and it was.
It dwarfedfed the number,dwarfed anything else.
And Marty looked at me, very,very he was.
(22:04):
He had a great way about him.
He said you know, brian, we'rein the business of bottom line
personal renewals, and that hitme.
That was a moment in time.
Probably I don't know maybe1990.
I mean, that's a long time agoand it stays with me today
because it's about the ongoingrelationship.
(22:25):
It's no one hit wonders.
I said that before.
We don't want to just look atcold traffic.
That's the big phrase today.
I believe in getting newcustomers.
I'm not against it, because toget a longtime customer, you
have to get them first right.
So you still have to get newcustomers.
But the sexy part of marketing,which a lot of the online
(22:47):
marketers seem to sell more, isthe idea that selling to cold
traffic, selling to people thatdon't know you and they don't
really you know nothing, sellingto cold traffic, selling to
people that don't know you andthey don't really you know
nothing about them and nothingabout you, and you're going to
try to sell them something.
Well, you have to do that atsome point, at least when you're
getting started.
But I did a video, an eightminute video, in one of my blogs
(23:09):
and it was all about goinginside before you go outside,
and it was a very simple conceptthe idea of lifetime value and
getting more.
Jay Abraham, who's my ultimatementor, wrote the forward for my
book.
One of my mentors wrote theforward for my book, has a book
himself that's called GettingEverything you Can Out of All
You've Got.
And so when I used to go to andI had him in my head all the
(23:32):
time when I used to go to visitclients, after I left boardroom
and I started my own business, Itook a couple of consulting
clients on.
I don't do that anymore, but Iused to go to the company and
the first thing I would do isI'd say to them we need to
assess your assets, and what Imeant by that is that let's not
talk about creating the ultimatesales letter and going out to
the outside and sell, sell, selland cold traffic.
(23:54):
What do you have?
What do you have?
What kind of content do youhave?
What list do you have?
What offers have you made inthe past that worked and didn't
work?
So you take, you do an inventory, an asset inventory, and that's
where you start, because thegold is in the people that know,
like and trust you.
If you have anybody who knows,likes and trusts.
You go to them first.
(24:15):
I mean, it sounds so obvious,but it's not how a lot of people
you know approach marketing andthat's playing a long game.
The other part of playing along game in terms of people is
the idea that you know, I talkabout the concept in my book of
relationship capital, which Igot from Jay Abraham.
And relationship capital is notyour personal list, it's not
(24:37):
your 5,000 Facebook friends,it's the people that you farm
relationships with over time andthat's the long game too.
Like when I said I can get allthese people to come to my
mastermind and speak, it's notbecause I met them last week,
it's not because someoneintroduced me to them, it's
(24:57):
because I have a 15, 20 yearrelationship with them and it
went deep.
I did stuff for them, not withany intention of reciprocity or
return.
That's, robert Cialdini, theprinciple of reciprocity, which
I keep right here on my desk,and it says reciprocity.
It's the first principle ofethical influence.
(25:20):
What about influence?
Everybody should read Influenceby Robert Cialdini, who wants
to be an influencer.
But the first is reciprocation.
Be the first to give service,be the first to give information
, be the first to giveconcessions, and what that means
is that you need to give it,don't expect a return 100-0, no,
50-50, no meeting me halfwayand I talk about this in
(25:43):
OverDeliver a lot, and you knowwhat happens Stuff comes back to
you magically.
And I have another blog post Iwrote.
I said never make an ask fromnowhere.
And whenever I'm in a situationlike, let's say, let's say
sometimes I have to go tosomebody, let's say if I when
actually Johan was a goodexample, he was introduced to me
(26:04):
by somebody I didn't know whohe was.
The guy who introduced me tohim I have a deep relationship
with and so going and he wantedme to meet Johan.
He said, said he's awesome, youshould get him to speak to your
mastermind and he is coming tospeak soon.
And but when I approached him,I approached you have to
approach them humbly.
You have to go to them and sayyou know this might be an ask
(26:28):
from nowhere.
I don't have a relationshipwith you.
My buddy, bob says you are theguy to talk to when it comes to
ai and I would love for you and,based on that recommendation
alone, I want you to come speak.
And I I had a zoom call withhim, got to know him a little
bit.
Um, he's your partner, so Ithink you like him too.
(26:48):
Yeah, he's not a bad guy.
Yeah, no, he, I mean he, he hasan infectious personality, he
really does.
So I said you know, I feel thisis a bold request.
He didn't think it was a boldrequest and the interesting
thing was I went in, I said youdon't know me, I don't assume
people know who I am.
That's being a good influencertoo.
(27:08):
Because then he said to meBrian, I've read your book, I
know who you are, I followed you.
I know you, you are, I followedyou, I know you published
Breakthrough Advertising by GeneSchwartz.
I know you work with GeneSchwartz.
So now, okay, now he knows whoI am, he probably trusts me
because I've been in thebusiness for 40 years.
But he has to like me too, andto do that takes time.
(27:39):
It's about time.
You know it's.
It's you.
You know all of your questionwas long game.
This is the long game, and soyou don't have to know somebody
for 40 years to ask them for afavor.
That's not what I'm saying.
But you need to always be therefor them, you always.
It's a cumulative relationship.
Um, I have a quote in, uh, in,in, in, in, um, over, deliver,
leads off one of the chapters.
It says you know, noteverything in business and life
(28:02):
is a revenue event, buteverything's a relationship
event, and I'm not the first onethat said that or believes that
I haven't invented anything.
But if you can run yourbusiness on that base level and
everything else comes off ofthat, you're going to be playing
a long game.
Because the other thing was inchapter 10, the last chapter of
(28:23):
the book.
The title is Playing the LongGame and my quote for that
chapter.
I lead off every chapter with aquote, and that quote is a short
one from Marty Edelston, whichis life is long.
You know, everybody says lifeis short and Marty used to say
life is long, it's the only oneyou got.
You got to play it that way andI just love that expression.
(28:43):
Nobody, very few people talkrun around talking about life is
long.
They say life is short.
I got to make hay while the sunshines.
I got to, you know, in the showHamilton, you know why does he
write like he's running out oftime?
He was running out of timebecause Alexander Hamilton got
in a duel with Aaron Byrne anddied at I don't know, 29 or
something.
But you don't have to writelike you're running out of time.
(29:06):
You don't have to.
You shouldn't be complacent,which I already talked about as
one of the regrets that I havein my career.
If it's a regret, it's just Iwould have done more things
faster.
Um, but time is important.
Relationships are not immediate.
Like I have so many people thatthink they're my best friend, I
don't know, I don't hardly knowthem.
(29:26):
Wow, um, and and if they callme a best friend, I better be
their best friend.
If I call them one of my bestfriends, I better mean it.
It better have some bulk to it,and it doesn't happen overnight
.
It's about, you know, havingcustomers for life.
Oh, even if, even if lifetimevalue is five years, it's better
(30:00):
than one, and so I.
And then also staying within asopposed to going to the outside
.
Um, you know, gettingeverything you can out of all
you've got.
These are all the themes that Ilive by to.
You know, basically, play along game.
Walt Bayliss (30:17):
Yeah, definitely I found the lifetime value.
You know, as a software guymyself, you know getting that
residual income coming throughis just something unbelievable.
But the relationship is moreimportant than the money.
Keeping that relationship on aneven keel that allows the
relationship to survive three,five, ten years, even if there's
a financial transaction behindit.
Brian Kurtz (30:38):
So that brings me to the last one.
There's a great framework thatI got from Dan Sullivan from
Strategic Coach, who's the topentrepreneur coach in the world,
and it's the five ways we getpaid, and the fifth is cash.
Right, wow, it's powerful.
Walt Bayliss (30:57):
That's really cool .
Brian Kurtz (31:00):
One of them is referrals.
One of them is you know, Ialways forget them.
I live them.
I don't need them, but it'slike you know you appreciate,
appreciate is one.
So all the things you'regetting paid, you know so many
(31:20):
different ways, and cash is thelast one that's the.
Walt Bayliss (31:23):
That's the truth.
I think, like, as we're nowtalking about influences and and
growing brands and that kind ofstuff in record time um, that
message is something that'sreally important as well.
It's not just about what you'redoing today, it's not just
about that prank on that video,or it's not just about something
.
It's's about playing that longgame that allows you to be in
that space for a very long time.
(31:43):
So that brings me to themastermind.
I'm fascinated by the conceptthat your life now, project-wise
, revolves around the mastermind, the titans of marketing and
getting in the room with thoseincredible people.
And we said before you own theroom, you create the room,
you've created the room of 250and growing of the best
(32:08):
entrepreneurs on the planet.
How does that impact your life?
Tell me about the mastermind,tell me about putting it
together.
Tell me about how thoserelationships are working with
your daily life how that, uh,those relationships are, are
working with your daily life.
Brian Kurtz (32:24):
Yeah, so I had I.
I one of the other regret, Ijust sort of another regret, and
I'll lead into the mastermindthing.
It was that when, at boardroom,you know, there was a line that
one of my copywriters once said.
He said, you know, brian, youat boardroom you probably sold a
billion and a half worth ofproduct, 39 at a time, freaking
hard I'm not proud of that andthe reason I'm not proud I think
you should be.
That's a a billion and a halfworth of product, $39 at a time,
freaking hard.
Walt Bayliss (32:43):
I'm not proud of that and the reason I'm not
proud of it I think you shouldbe.
That's a billion.
I think you should be, butcarrying on.
Brian Kurtz (32:47):
The reason I'm not proud of it is that I could have
gotten to a billion a lotfaster if I had Ascension
programs, if I had higherproducts, I mean we were like
you took a lot of micro steps.
Walt Bayliss (32:58):
It could have been a few giant leaps, exactly.
Brian Kurtz (33:01):
We were basically stupid.
In a lot of ways we weresuccessful, but we were stupid
because we didn't have anessential program.
When I left boardroom because Ihad 34 years of developing my
relationship capital of therelationships that I had
developed I started a mastermind.
I did a dissension model.
It just shows you the power ofrelationships because most
(33:22):
people start a mastermind.
They start one at $197 onlineand they work their way up.
I started with a $25,000 a yearmastermind Wow.
And I got 30 companies into it,eventually Started with 23,.
But that's a do the math.
That's a $600, that's a sixhundred thousand dollar business
like that wow, and good marginstoo.
(33:43):
So I wasn't.
But that's, that's theeconomics of it.
But the beauty of it was thatyou know, I was able to create,
as you said, create the room.
This was a live in-personmastermind, three meetings a
year with all the best speakers.
Because again, the 34 years Irealized I could bring the best
people in.
I could.
I can not only all the bestspeakers, because again the 34
years I realized I could bringthe best people in.
I could not only have the bestmembers, I could have the best
(34:05):
speakers.
And the members became speakersin the group.
Everybody shared what they weredoing.
So the room was like an amazingroom of 30 of the top
entrepreneurs and it was sosatisfying because every one of
those 30 has an audience of10,000, a hundred thousand, a
million, and so I felt like, soyou talk about how it made me
(34:27):
feel it wasn't just about me,but what it was so satisfying
that I was bringing in all thiseducation, all of this
information.
They say you go to a mastermindfor the information and stay
for the inspiration, and I hopeI think I did that, because they
came in and we shared, and oneplus one equals three, and
everybody was hugging in andhugging when they came in and
(34:48):
hugging when they left, and thatwas the most actually that
might be the most satisfyingthing that everybody came to
these meetings.
I had an 80% renewal rate, 8-0year to year and for seven or
eight years, and the thing Iwanted for it was that I wanted
people to come into the roomgiving each other hugs and leave
at the end of the meetinggiving each other hugs, and I
(35:11):
achieved that after the firstmeeting and I realized this was
what, not that what I was meantto do.
I don't like to look at it thatway, but it was something just
so powerful for me.
So then what happened was COVIDcame.
There was this thing calledCOVID, and I lost a few members
and I, I was losing my, I waslosing my desire.
(35:32):
I did, I did a couple of themeetings virtually and they were
great, even got better speakers, because I got speakers who
didn't want to travel and I gotthem on screen.
So I, I mean, I had, you know,I had some of the most.
I had Russell Brunson, I hadRyan Dice, I had amazing
speakers.
And so I said you know, insteadof going to 30 companies with
(35:54):
their tentacles, why don't I godirectly to a bigger group and
do it as a virtual mastermind?
Interestingly, I thought ofthat idea before the pandemic.
So I sometimes like to say thatI predicted the pandemic
because I did the virtualmastermind on Zoom, which is the
one you were referring to 250called Titans Accelerator, and
(36:16):
that one is low.
I went from $25,000 to $ 000 to2 000.
It's only two thousand dollarsa year.
It's very expensive.
Yeah, yeah, descension program,not ascension.
And so I, I have 250 members.
It could be bigger too if I, ifI wanted to work at it more.
I'm not.
I'm not going for building itthat big, but I can if I want to
(36:40):
.
And the satisfaction there isthat I'm actually helping more
people directly.
When I had the 30 big companies,I was helping them with their
audiences more.
I'm much more hands-on with the$250,000 at a lower price,
(37:00):
which is ironic, right.
I'm spending less time andeffort with the $30,000, making
$600,000 or $700,000.
And with the $250,000 at$400,000, they're needier.
They sometimes drive me crazywith their questions or whatever
, but equal satisfaction, I mean.
(37:22):
I think your question was agood one.
It's like how do I feel and howdo I get satisfaction?
I get satisfaction when someonesays you know, you told me
something.
Actually, this is the best whensomeone I wrote about it
recently in a blog Someone tellsme, not that I gave them the
deep, dark secret that theynever heard before, because I
(37:45):
don't have those but if theytold me that I explained
something that was not myinvention, but that I explained
it in a way that it got to themand they understood it.
Finally, that's as satisfyingas it gets for me Because you
know, basically by giving them,by being the messenger for
something that is game-changingfor them, that's what jazzes me
(38:10):
the most.
Walt Bayliss (38:11):
Yeah, I've read that from a teacher's point of
view that nobody knows thefounder of mathematics, but
they'll always remember theteacher that made it clear for
them.
Brian Kurtz (38:21):
Exactly, exactly.
I haven't invented that either,I know that, but that's the
thing that.
That's the thing that that, youknow, really drives me.
I think, amazing complicatedmarketing stuff that people
can't get to because they can'tget to the experts, and I can
get to the experts.
So that's one of my.
(38:42):
I mean, basically, I have agolden ticket into a lot of
rooms just because I've beenaround for a long time.
Walt Bayliss (38:47):
I hate to say it that way, you've created that,
though Like I mean deliberately.
You've built that golden ticketpiece by piece to allow that to
happen, by playing the longgame, by creating those
relationships, which is amazing.
So what's a day in the life ofBrian Kurtz look like these days
?
Brian Kurtz (39:02):
Every day is a little different, but one thing
that I do is I map out my weekwhere I have no calls or
meetings on Mondays, I have nocalls or meetings on Wednesday
mornings and I have no calls ormeetings on Fridays, and so by
starting there, I block and thisis a Dan Kennedy thing in terms
of time management but I blocktime for myself and for the
(39:27):
stuff that I really love to do,Not that the meetings and the
calls and the podcasts.
They're fun too.
I'm having a good time today.
I hope you are too.
Walt Bayliss (39:34):
Me too.
Brian Kurtz (39:35):
Absolutely, but by leaving Monday and plus some of
it is to make sure that I get tothe gym and get a, you know.
So that's Monday and Wednesday.
Friday is my writing day.
I dedicate Friday to writing.
I do a blog, but if I want towrite some other stuff or I want
(39:57):
to do an email series for youknow, selling the Breakthrough
Advertising Bootcamp orsomething like that, so that
sort of starts my week, but thenTuesdays, which we're doing
this on a Tuesday.
That's why, because Tuesdays,wednesday afternoons and
Thursdays are like, you know,they're not, they're not a
(40:20):
hundred percent work, but causeI get my works, my play, for the
most part, but it's it's, it'sthe stuff that you know is
interaction with others, it'smaking sure I'm, I'm responding
to all my emails, um, it's umand and it's all about
connection, like in chapter 10,where I the chapter 10 of my
(40:41):
book where I said you know,playing the long game I started
off with life is long.
And then the first sentence is Ihate the word networking and I
was known as likes and 30s.
I was like in direct mail, thedirect mail world and the list
(41:02):
world.
I was like the guy who kneweverybody and I hate that
Because in fact, there was atrade magazine that did an
article 30 under 30.
So it was like 30 people towatch who are under 30 years old
and they did a profile of meand the headline was strategic
(41:22):
schmoozer and schmoozer and andthose you know, people don't
know what a schmoozer is.
It's like someone who's like,always, you know, cuddling up to
people and shaking everybody'shand and patting them on the
back and like just you, justbeing the person with 5,000
Facebook friends and none ofthem and no real friends.
And so that was another bigmoment in time.
(41:47):
I said I don't want to be astrategic schmoozer.
If I'm seen like that, thatsucks, and I wasn't like that,
but it was perceived by this guywho wrote the article about me.
So that's when I committed torelationship, capital, going
deep with people, all of that.
And that's what really drove meto the things that I do today,
(42:10):
which are not best in time andtime management that I respond
to every email from my blog post, not right away, but I always
try to respond to everybody.
I try to give everybody, youknow, um, the, the grace and the
and the respect that if theyabuse it, I have to tell them
too much.
But generally I like to, I liketo be cause.
(42:32):
You know you can talk the gameof relationships you gotta, you
gotta deliver on it.
So I let basically what thatthing is I hate.
I hate networking led to.
I contribute to connect.
Nice, that's my life.
Walt Bayliss (42:46):
That's my life, I can see that one like is that is
that your daily mantra?
Brian Kurtz (42:50):
I contribute to connect yes yes, that's, that's
what yeah, yeah, but contributeto connect is is is critical for
me.
Walt Bayliss (43:01):
What do you see happening from here on in, man,
Like you've got, you've got, uh,what some would say is a, a
beautiful, ideal life, and I waslistening to uh to somebody
yesterday, Dan Martell, talkingabout building a life that you
don't ever want to retire fromit's.
Why would you want to retirefrom something that's just so
fun?
What's what's coming up for you?
Brian Kurtz (43:18):
That's that's lighting you up.
What's next?
What's the, what's the thingsthat's keeping you, uh, driven
and focused?
Yeah, it's funny, dan martell.
I I saw him speak at a, at a,at an event, and he's, he's
amazing and he's a greatsoftware developer and he's made
, uh, he's probably made abillion dollars, if he's not a
billionaire.
He's closed, probably, yeah,and he, he basically one of the
(43:40):
joe polish interviewed him at,at one of the one of the
mastermind meetings and he, hetalked about, like you know,
ignore email was one of histhings and I said to myself you
know, he's probably right tobecome as successful as he is in
terms of assets and whatever,but I'm happy responding to
(44:02):
every email.
Yeah, right, you know.
So there's different strokesfor different folks, but, um, I
respect him to no end and he's,you know, by any measure, he's
far more successful than I am interms of, you know, um, um, you
know his, his net value, forsure, but I've got a lot of
(44:22):
value that's not in dollars andhe does too.
I'm not saying I'm better thanhim or anything like that, or
I'm worse than him, but there'sdifferent ways to measure it.
And so, as far as what'slighting me up now, the life you
don't want to retire from.
Walt Bayliss (44:39):
What's that the life you don't want to retire
from's that the life you?
Brian Kurtz (44:42):
don't want to retire from what's the yeah, no,
and I definitely don't.
I mean I want to continue toretire from things I don't like
to do.
I want to continue to retirefrom things I don't do well, and
I want to continue to retirefrom people I don't want to hang
around with anymore.
So that's where I retire from.
But I'm not.
I'm working full time, whateverfull time is for me, and I
(45:02):
think I want to continue myTitans accelerator group.
I want to make it better andbigger, and not just bigger in
size, but get even differentspeakers, some well-known, some
not so well-known.
I love the people like getting.
Getting Johan was like adifferent.
Getting Johan was like adifferent.
I mean, people in my groupdon't know who he is Right and
(45:23):
that alone gets me excitedbecause he's brilliant and he's
doing great stuff, as you know.
And my group doesn't even knowwho he is, and my group is
fantastic copywriters andmarketers and they're going to
be blown away.
So finding new talent reallylights me up, nice, and they're
going to be blown away.
So finding new talent reallylights me up.
And, in fact, and thenjuxtapose with that to that, I'm
(45:44):
doing a live event, a live inperson event, this October and
it's a 11 year anniversary ofthe Titans of Direct Response,
which was an event that I hostedin 2014 before I left boardroom
, and it was a tribute event toMarty Edelston, who had died in
2013.
And it was.
(46:04):
Dan Kennedy was the guy I didthe event with and he, he, he
labeled it the event of thedecade.
Now it's the decade of the 2000teens.
But, um, uh, but.
And I had, you know, talk aboutthe Watts.
I mean, I had, I had DanKennedy.
I had, you know, joe Sugarman,who's amazing, he's dead now.
(46:28):
I had Perry Marshall.
I had Ken McCarthy.
I had Jay Abraham.
I had Guthrie.
I had Greg Ranker of GuthrieRenker, the top infomercial.
I had Fred Katona, the topradio direct response guy.
I had amazing copywriters GaryBensavanga, the best living
(46:48):
copywriter who had retired, cameout of retirement to present
there.
So I wanted to.
I was going to do a 10 yearanniversary, but I didn't.
It wasn't a hell, yes, and Itry to, I try to like, I try to
practice, but I didn't.
It wasn't a hell yes and I tryto.
I try to like, I try topractice essentialism, which is
a great book, by the way, byMcCune, and he has a thing, you
know, hell yes or no.
And it wasn't a hell yes at 10years, but at 11, it was a hell
(47:30):
yes.
So that event is is now I'mstarting to plan it and the key
is, as far as the watts I'mgoing to bring to that event, I
want to have some that's.
That's that seems consistentwith where I am in my life and
my brand.
I'm a little intimidated by it.
I threw my hat over the overthe fence and said I'm going to
do this event, not knowing how Iwas going to do it or you know
(47:54):
what it was going to be I did itsmaller.
The original Titans directresponse event was a 350 person
event at anywhere from thirtyfive hundred to five thousand
per ticket.
So it was.
It was a big event.
This won't be as big as maybe80 people max.
So that's got me turned on alittle bit.
And Titans Accelerator and youknow also, just you know,
(48:18):
continuing to learn.
I mean, I belong to, you knowthree masterminds that I pay to
be in and going to.
Those meetings are exciting.
And then, on a personal front,my daughter is pregnant and I'm
going to be a grandfather thisyear.
Thank, you.
Walt Bayliss (48:34):
So that's on the personal front.
Brian Kurtz (48:35):
But yeah, I think that's what Thank you.
So that's on the personal front.
But yeah, I think that's whatyou know.
I'm trying to stay engaged at agood level, but not at a level
where I'm doing stuff that Idon't like to do and stuff that
I'm not good at.
Walt Bayliss (48:49):
Amazing, amazing.
Well, thank you so much fortaking the time on a Tuesday to
come and hang out with us andchat through some of these
things Would have been on aMonday or Friday.
Brian Kurtz (49:00):
I'll tell you that.
Walt Bayliss (49:01):
I love it.
I love it and thinking therelationship lesson there and
playing the long game.
Boys and girls, you're hearingBrian Kurtz tell the story, so
follow along with Brianbriankurtznet.
There's a ton of free stuffthere.
You can subscribe to hisnewsletter which, as you heard,
(49:24):
is going to be writing everysingle Friday and dropping the
blog posts out there as well.
Brian is leading the way interms of relationship capital
and in today's world where weare creating influence so
quickly, creating attention soquickly, the message here to
understand that relationshiplong-term and to invest in those
returns for that future issomething that really resonates
with me and I appreciate yousharing with Matt.
I hope that it was on pointthough because I know it's about
Love it, I love it, I love it.
(49:45):
I think it's amazing we didn'ttalk about influencers in
particular, but-.
Oh, we did in every single way.
In every comment that came out,we talked about influencers,
because the words that we'retalking about are influence, and
I think that's the real messagehere is that the influencer
themselves is somebody that cancreate attention quickly, but
the long game of thatrelationship and the messages
that we're sharing is so, so, soimportant.
(50:06):
So, Brian, I'd love for you topop back on and tell us how you
go with that October event.
Let us know.
You know the people that camein the room and what lit you up,
and you know how all that cametogether.
It'd be great to hear back fromyou.
Brian Kurtz (50:16):
I would love that, and also when Johan speaks.
You know, maybe I'll do alittle.
We can do a post-mortem of thattoo.
Walt Bayliss (50:26):
Nice, yeah, that'd be cool, That'd be great.
In the meantime, guys head onover to briankurtznet, follow
along with the man that has soldmore than a billion dollars $39
at a time, the hard way andsome lessons to be learned there
.
Brian Kurtz (50:44):
Drop on over to briankeistnet.
And again, brian, thank you somuch for spending the time with
us.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you, will.
Today's episode of the Influencer Empires podcast
is brought to you by the EmpireProgram with White Label Suite
powering our influencers andbuilding their empires.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank youso much for joining us on the
show.
Today we have a bona fideexpert, somebody who has cut his
teeth in direct marketing forthe last four decades.
He's an OG when it comes tocreating lists online.
(00:23):
When building influence inamongst his followers.
He is followed by thousands ofpeople.
He is the best-selling authorof the book Overdeliver, which
is available on Amazon, withhundreds of five-star reviews
and people saying that he's thenumber one entrepreneur's manual
, something to really take intoaccount.
He now runs the Titans ofMarketing, an invitation-only
(00:45):
group which has got over 250 ofthe world's best entrepreneurs
as members.
He is an incredible leader inthe copy space and somebody who
is forging the path when itcomes to driving your business
as an entrepreneur.
He is none other than BrianKurtz.
Brian, thank you so much forjoining us on the show.
Brian Kurtz (01:03):
Well, that is quite an introduction.
I don't know if I can live upto all of that, but I'm really
pleased to be here.
I met your partner, johan, andtold me about this podcast that
you're doing and I love what youguys are doing.
I mean 40 years.
People might be saying, oh,this guy's an old fogey, which I
am.
I've been doing this directmarketing thing for 44 years and
(01:34):
you know I start, I cut myteeth in direct mail and I did
catch on to this internet thingand email marketing and social
media marketing.
So I'm no Luddite and I'm not.
You know.
I'm not someone to dismiss asthe old fogey, but I am an old
fogey.
Not someone to dismiss as theold fogey, but I am an old fogey
.
And so the way I justify myexistence is to say look, you
know I'll be.
You know, being 67 years oldsays it could be 67 years of one
(01:56):
year's experience or it couldbe 67 years of cumulative
experience.
And I would like to think thatI've done the latter.
And the way I've done thelatter is to hang out with
people like you, and I'mbringing it back to you because
when I get an opportunity to beon a podcast like this or
(02:16):
someone in my mastermind, myTitans Accelerator mastermind,
with 250 members, as youmentioned.
I want to learn from them.
I mean, they want me to teachthem, and you know the idea of
you know teaching being a oneway street is just nuts and it's
never been that way for me.
So I'm a lifelong learner.
When, when a lot of the people Igrew up with in direct mail in
(02:39):
the 1980s a lot of them gave upI mean, some of them died since
then because it's been a longtime, which is a failure recipe,
right, exactly.
But some of them just died,figuratively or emotionally,
because they saw this internetthing coming and they got scared
(03:00):
.
They said I don't know this,it's unknown.
I was in that boat, scared, youknow they.
They said I don't know this,it's unknown, I was in that boat
.
So what did I do?
I looked at it.
This is early.
I mean, I was an early adopter,not that I was an expert at all
.
I was an expert in direct mail,I was an expert in copy, I was
an expert in list building, allof those things, but in the
terrestrial world, in the youknow, the offline world, and
(03:26):
when the internet came about, itwas like.
You know, this is the ultimatedirect response medium.
It's like, and it's reallydirect and it's immediate and
the feedback you'll get isimmediate.
And all of a sudden I said Igotta, I gotta be a sponge, I
gotta learn it.
And you know, look, there werea lot of imposters then, as
there are now a lot of peopleclaiming they're the be all, end
all with everything.
So I think I'm a good vetting.
(03:48):
I'm good at vetting people.
I have a good bullshit antenna,so I kind of know if someone is
full of shit, and not always.
I get snowed a lot too, likeanybody else.
But because I just go to theexperts and I I learned that at
my original company boardroom,which we always had experts
(04:08):
experts in our marketing that wework with, but experts in our
public.
We publish newsletters and booksthat were interviews with
experts and the idea of experts,it's easy to say, tougher to
deliver on, because you need tohave bullshit antenna, you need
to know who the experts are andthey have to be vetted by people
who you respect and who arealso experts.
(04:31):
So it's a, it's an expertcircle, as it were, and I think
I've run my life that way for myentire business career and it's
paid off.
You know, not that.
You know I'm not.
You know, I know this is aboutinfluencers.
We're going to talk about aboutbeing coming an influencer and
that everybody wants to grow upand be an influencer.
Now, um, I never thought aboutbeing an influencer.
(04:53):
I did want to influence people.
I did want to share my what Iknew with people and let them
share back with me.
But that that's influence, man.
I mean, that's the ultimateinfluence.
You know, it's definitelyinfluence.
Anyway, that was a quickpreamble just based on your
introduction.
Walt Bayliss (05:10):
No, I love it.
Thank you, I appreciate itDiving in.
I always say I've got a list ofquestions, you know, when we're
running the podcast, but theworst thing I can do is refer to
them because I'd much prefer tojust understand from what
you're saying.
So there was a couple of thingsthere that you said.
Number one was you decided tobecome a sponge and then the
other thing was that you're alifelong learner.
(05:31):
Looking at where you're atright now, Brian, and thinking
about what's happening, what'snext, what you've worked on,
what's hit, what's missed, whatdo you wish you knew when you
got started.
Brian Kurtz (05:43):
Ooh, you know I, you know I when I.
Well, if I look, if I knew, ifI knew AI was coming, I would
have been.
I would have been a genius in1985, right, if I knew email was
coming.
You know anything that'sfuturistic or technology based
or not futuristic, but justtechnology based anything.
(06:06):
I mean you know the the amountof progress we've made in
marketing since I started it's.
You know it's a differencebetween a horse and buggy and
you know um, you know uh, a jetplane or whatever, or a rocket
ship.
So I think I think I probablycould have anticipated the pace
(06:28):
of change more, because even Iwas not fast to the trigger
compared to some people, but Iwas faster than most because, as
I said, most of the people Igrew up with in the direct mail
world they thought it wouldnever end.
I saw it ending.
I mean that I did.
I did have that much foresight,but I don't think that I
(06:50):
realized that.
You know speed ofimplementation is important.
I didn't understand that asmuch because you know you grow
up doing direct mail, which ispainful in a way, when you think
about it.
You know it's like chapterthree of OverDeliver is titled
how Paying Postage Made Me aBetter Marketer, and it's not
because I want people to dodirect mail, it's because the
(07:13):
discipline that it takes tospend the kind of money on
printing and postage and puttingstuff in the mail physical mail
takes a certain level ofmarketing sense, but it also can
slow you down.
So that when and I'm trying toget to an answer to your
question because it's difficult,but I do think that it was
(07:33):
probably not understanding thatwhile I wanted the discipline, I
wanted to create discipline inall of my online marketing that
I've done my entire career Iprobably could have been faster
on the trigger on some stuff,like when I started seeing
online courses come about and Ihad an idea for a course I
didn't jump on and I had a goodidea.
(07:54):
I was still at boardroom at thetime and there was a course we
were coming up with for retireesand man, I just remember that
one in particular.
I could have jumped on that andit would have been fantastic.
So you know, and I didn't, andit never happened and then I
left Wardroom or whatever.
Now I don't have regrets aboutthat, but that's probably, you
(08:15):
know, seeded in where I was.
Another thing was that notunderstanding early on the
relationship, the realrelationship between list,
audience, offer and creative,and when I found the 40-40-20
rule, which is that the successof any marketing campaign
(08:37):
depends 40% on the list, 40% onthe offer and 20% on the
creative and the messaging.
That doesn't mean the creativeis half as important, it just
means the creative is the leastimportant until it's not.
And what I mean by that is thatthe list and and I was in the
right place because I was a listguy early on I did list
segmentation.
I was all into the audience.
(08:57):
Everything was about theaudience and anybody wants to be
an influencer.
It's about audience man.
It's not about your contentfirst.
It's about are you talking tothe right audience?
And what I did was in my bookOverdeliver, I changed the
40-40-20 rule to the 41-39-20rule, and why I did that is that
I wanted to emphasize that 41%the list is the most important
(09:21):
thing Knowing who your audienceis, knowing who you need to
reach, what are their pains,what are their pleasures, what
is going on in their minds.
Gene Schwartz, the author ofBreakthrough Advertising, which
I have the exclusive rights toit's a book that was written in
1966, talks about this in detailand that's why I love the book
so much and that's why I do aBreakthrough Advertising boot
(09:42):
camp and I'm just obsessed withaudience and list.
Now, the interesting thing whyI said the creative is the least
important until it's not, isthat every great promotion that
I did that had the biggest liftswas because of the creative.
But it was because ofworld-class creative that was
(10:05):
going to the best list with thebest offer, and I proved it time
and again If you have theperfect list and you have a
mediocre offer and a mediocresales letter or creative, you'll
make some sales.
You'll make some money.
Now, making money is not theonly criteria.
You want to have lifetime value.
You want to have recurringcustomers.
(10:26):
You want to have people comingback to you time and again.
Influencers absolutely, youdon't want people coming to you.
You want to be a one-trick pony.
You don't want to be a one-hitwonder.
You want to have people comingback and back and back.
So the opposite, you know.
So I said the best creative, thethe the best creative to an
audience.
That's not so.
(10:47):
The one I mentioned was that ifyou have the best list with a
mediocre offer and mediocrecreative, that means that you'll
make some sales.
The opposite is not true.
If you have the best creativeand a lousy offer and a lousy
list, you're going to make zero.
And I haven't proven it becauseI was always list first and
(11:10):
that's why I emphasize it somuch in my book and why I
emphasize it when I'm on apodcast where I talk about,
especially to younger marketerswho don't get, that they think
it's all about content creation.
Content creation is veryimportant.
I'm not saying it's not, butcontent for the sake of content,
with no audience.
You know you're, you're likeyou know you're, you're twisting
(11:31):
in the wind.
I mean, that's a broad way tolook at it.
Walt Bayliss (11:34):
But you're not able to to, to, to share it with
anyone.
So there's there's three thingsthere.
There's you mentioned AI.
You wish you'd been able to tolook at AI, pull the trigger
faster and understand theprinciples of the 41-39-20 rule
faster.
That would have made adifference to you.
So, knowing or thinking about Iwould have implemented more
(11:55):
faster, probably.
Brian Kurtz (11:56):
I still implement it over time, so I don't have
big regrets about those things,but yeah, I mean I would have
been a success.
Let's put it that way, thosethings, but yeah, I mean I would
have been a success.
Let's put it that way.
Walt Bayliss (12:06):
How is that shaping your decisions today,
brian Again, thinking aboutthose lessons learned implement
online AI, all of the stuff, thelist what are you doing now
that those lessons are beingreflected in?
Brian Kurtz (12:19):
Great question and it actually ties into what you
told me before you turned therecording on, Because you said
that if you had one thing thatyou wanted to do would be
podcasting, and then you rattledoff all these amazing people
that you've interviewed the nasaguy, you know you, just it's
like you, you never had thatopportunity.
Well, in marketing I've hadthat opportunity, yeah, and
(12:42):
that's how, and so I justdoubled down on that.
So when I, my masterminds and Ihad a live mastermind, I have a
virtual mastermind and mymasterminds the way I would
describe them is that I'mlooking for all the what's I can
find.
I'm looking for all the what'sI can find.
What's a what?
What's a what?
(13:03):
A.
What would be marketing onAmazon?
A.
What would be Facebook?
A.
What would be direct mail?
A.
What would be Google AdWords?
A.
What can be anything?
A.
What could be a billboard?
A.
What could be, you know, theback of yogurt lids if you want
to test that, which I did, andit was only a good idea at the
time, but the idea of everythingis testable and everything out
(13:25):
there and you need to have the X.
I mentioned experts before, sothat's how I've accelerated,
because I don't, I don't knowthat.
I mean I know a lot because Isaid I have 44 years of
cumulative experience workingwith the best of the best,
learning all the way.
But, man, you know, I had, Ihad somebody present on my
(13:46):
mastermind, at my mastermindlast week, and he just created
this incredible personal chatGPT mirror image of himself and
he demoed it for the group.
He had 80 people on the call.
He demoed it and it was likeblowing me away.
It was like I was like a kid ina candy store.
(14:06):
So I guess the way that I knowthat I'm implementing and I'm
moving forward because I don'thave to do anything.
I mean I don't have a businessthat requires me to go on
YouTube and get 3 million views.
My business doesn't requirethat.
I could do that, but I don't.
I just blog to, you know,20,000 people every week and and
(14:27):
I get, you know, 70% open ratesand a lot of engagement.
That that turns me on andthat's that's my life.
But I think that you know, butyou, but you just extrapolate
that how do you get the 3million followers?
It's because your content is socompelling.
In fact, I just was on a callwith one of my masterminds that
(14:47):
I pay to be in and the guy whowas.
They had a guest speaker andthis guy's going to speak at my
mastermind too.
I'll throw out his name,because he's awesome.
His name is Evan Carmichael.
Oh, I've spoken to him.
He was one of my interviewersTalk about influencer.
I mean, he's like Mr Beastwithout being Mr Beast, in a way
, and so his YouTube expertise.
(15:09):
It's so profound in itssimplicity.
It's like he was just talkingto this group of high-end
marketers and just talking aboutdeveloping content and knowing
your audience.
It was like wow, I've heardthis before but, knowing that
he's done it, I want him, like,that's why I want him to come to
(15:30):
my mastermind.
So he's a Watt, he's the Wattof YouTube.
And so and he's coming.
He's coming in a few weeks, soI'm just so.
So I mean, it's a long-windedanswer and I think I answered
your question pretty well, whichis you must find, and you got
it, and you got to have thebullshit antenna up because
people will claim, like anybodywho's ever said to me, I can, I
(15:55):
can be your social media agencyfor any social media, any, any
kind of social media.
I run away, run away, notbecause I don't think they're
competent or that they know alot of stuff, because the thing
is, you know, um, um,specialization beats general,
(16:15):
general, generalists every dayof the week, and I want
specialists in everything that Ido, and I learned that really
early on in direct mail.
So in the eighties I often saythat advertising opportunities
were finite.
You know, you had direct mail,you had TV, you had radio, you
had, you know, print publicationadvertising, then you had stuff
(16:38):
like billboards and, just youknow, terrestrial advertising.
Now advertising opportunitiesare infinite.
Nobody can be an expert ineverything, whereas I think in
the 80s it was hard too.
But what I decided early on andthis was a lesson that I've
taken and how I apply it todayis this going to the experts
(16:59):
going to specialists, becausethere were direct marketing
agencies even in the 1980s whosaid one stop shopping, I'll do
your media buying, I'll do yourcopywriting and your creative.
And there was never an agencythat I would.
I wouldn't work with an agencyif.
If you paid me because you payme and I lose all my money, I
(17:19):
lose the money that you paid mebecause and I'll use a good
example copywriters.
Copywriting is not a commodity.
Copywriting is a specializedskill that if you do it well and
you're an A-list copywriter, ifyou're working in an agency,
you're generally not that good.
I'm not saying I'm not puttingdown anybody any copywriter who
(17:41):
works in an agency it's a goodjob, you can get a lot of work,
you can make a good salary.
But the A-list copywriterscould make millions in royalties
and the kinds of money and wepay them because I wasn't going
to go to an agency.
So I had my list brokers whocould give me my list work I had
.
I had.
I had copywriters who were thebest of the best, who I paid top
(18:03):
dollar for and they were worthevery penny.
And so the idea of one stopshopping was a lesson I learned
early on, and today that's onsteroids because we only we had
we had so little media comparedto today.
You know everything, everythingis a medium today, right?
So that's so that, plus that,everything is a lot to me has
(18:25):
really, really been the key formy personal education the
education of the people in mymasterminds, because I'm not
going to be able to teach themabout AdWords better than Perry
Marshall can.
I'm not gonna be able to teachthem about YouTube better than
Evan Carmichael can.
I'm not gonna be able to teachthem about Amazon than I.
(18:47):
Don't know if you know DylanFrost, but he's an expert on
selling on Amazon and webinars.
I can't teach you webinars likeDylan Frost can.
I can't teach you productlaunch formula or launching
online like Jeff Walker can.
So I can't teach you quizfunnels like Ryan Levesque can.
I've had them all at mymasterminds.
They're all friends.
I have relationships with allof them.
(19:08):
Not bragging it's not braggingif you know it and did it, but
I'm not talking about being asponge.
I bring them in and I'm as mucha student as everybody in my
group, so that I think that'sthe key and I hope I answered
that question.
I don't want to go too roundabout, but the idea of of the
watts is really the way to andexperts and specialization.
(19:32):
I think it's all up in up inthat and it's worked for me.
Walt Bayliss (19:36):
I love it and I love also like one of the things
that you're famous for isempowering the long game of
entrepreneurialism, and I'd liketo dive into that a little bit
more.
So we're talking about bringingin experts to learn from in
those different environments.
Obviously, masterminds are amassive part of your life these
(19:57):
days and developing thatentrepreneurial spirit in the
long game.
Let's dive into that a littlebit.
So I want to start with thelong game, because that's
something that you're actuallyyou're famous for quoting it's
on the front of the bookdeveloping that in the long game
.
So tell me about your thoughtsthere in terms of building that
list, that audience, thatfollowing and treating it like
that long.
The long game.
So tell me about your thoughtsthere in terms of building that
(20:18):
list, that audience, thatfollowing and treating it like
that long-term asset.
Brian Kurtz (20:20):
You know it started very humbly but early because
the business I was in in 1982was subscriptions.
We were selling subscriptionsto a print newsletter called
Bottom Line Personal, thelargest general consumer print
newsletter in Bottom LinePersonal, the largest general
consumer print newsletter in thecountry.
It became that over time, notin 82.
(20:41):
But you know in the 90s we hada million subscribers at one
point Print.
I mean sending out a million Amillion paying subscribers guys.
A million paid subscribers.
And I remember it was.
Sometimes, you know, you lookat your life in moments right,
and there was a moment where Irealized, well, the long game is
(21:02):
multifaceted, but in terms ofbusiness and numbers, I'll do
that one first and then I'll doit in terms of people.
But in terms of business andnumbers, it was all about
renewals for me.
So when I was, I remembersitting in the office with Marty
Edelston, who was the founderof boardroom, my ultimate mentor
made me a partner in thebusiness after 10 years.
(21:22):
So I was, I was an owner in thecompany after 10 years.
But I remember, you know, afterI've been there for 10 years
and we were sitting in hisoffice and we're looking at the
spreadsheet of of, you know, thethe&L for the company, profit
and loss for the company, andwe're looking at, like, all the
new subscribers coming in, orall the new we sold books too
(21:43):
all the new book buyers and allthe new business, and basically
all of that was, you know,losing money in the short term.
And then we looked at the linewhere it said renewals and
continuity and it was.
It dwarfedfed the number,dwarfed anything else.
And Marty looked at me, very,very he was.
(22:04):
He had a great way about him.
He said you know, brian, we'rein the business of bottom line
personal renewals, and that hitme.
That was a moment in time.
Probably I don't know maybe1990.
I mean, that's a long time agoand it stays with me today
because it's about the ongoingrelationship.
(22:25):
It's no one hit wonders.
I said that before.
We don't want to just look atcold traffic.
That's the big phrase today.
I believe in getting newcustomers.
I'm not against it, because toget a longtime customer, you
have to get them first right.
So you still have to get newcustomers.
But the sexy part of marketing,which a lot of the online
(22:47):
marketers seem to sell more, isthe idea that selling to cold
traffic, selling to people thatdon't know you and they don't
really you know nothing, sellingto cold traffic, selling to
people that don't know you andthey don't really you know
nothing about them and nothingabout you, and you're going to
try to sell them something.
Well, you have to do that atsome point, at least when you're
getting started.
But I did a video, an eightminute video, in one of my blogs
(23:09):
and it was all about goinginside before you go outside,
and it was a very simple conceptthe idea of lifetime value and
getting more.
Jay Abraham, who's my ultimatementor, wrote the forward for my
book.
One of my mentors wrote theforward for my book, has a book
himself that's called GettingEverything you Can Out of All
You've Got.
And so when I used to go to andI had him in my head all the
(23:32):
time when I used to go to visitclients, after I left boardroom
and I started my own business, Itook a couple of consulting
clients on.
I don't do that anymore, but Iused to go to the company and
the first thing I would do isI'd say to them we need to
assess your assets, and what Imeant by that is that let's not
talk about creating the ultimatesales letter and going out to
the outside and sell, sell, selland cold traffic.
(23:54):
What do you have?
What do you have?
What kind of content do youhave?
What list do you have?
What offers have you made inthe past that worked and didn't
work?
So you take, you do an inventory, an asset inventory, and that's
where you start, because thegold is in the people that know,
like and trust you.
If you have anybody who knows,likes and trusts.
You go to them first.
(24:15):
I mean, it sounds so obvious,but it's not how a lot of people
you know approach marketing andthat's playing a long game.
The other part of playing along game in terms of people is
the idea that you know, I talkabout the concept in my book of
relationship capital, which Igot from Jay Abraham.
And relationship capital is notyour personal list, it's not
(24:37):
your 5,000 Facebook friends,it's the people that you farm
relationships with over time andthat's the long game too.
Like when I said I can get allthese people to come to my
mastermind and speak, it's notbecause I met them last week,
it's not because someoneintroduced me to them, it's
(24:57):
because I have a 15, 20 yearrelationship with them and it
went deep.
I did stuff for them, not withany intention of reciprocity or
return.
That's, robert Cialdini, theprinciple of reciprocity, which
I keep right here on my desk,and it says reciprocity.
It's the first principle ofethical influence.
(25:20):
What about influence?
Everybody should read Influenceby Robert Cialdini, who wants
to be an influencer.
But the first is reciprocation.
Be the first to give service,be the first to give information
, be the first to giveconcessions, and what that means
is that you need to give it,don't expect a return 100-0, no,
50-50, no meeting me halfwayand I talk about this in
(25:43):
OverDeliver a lot, and you knowwhat happens Stuff comes back to
you magically.
And I have another blog post Iwrote.
I said never make an ask fromnowhere.
And whenever I'm in a situationlike, let's say, let's say
sometimes I have to go tosomebody, let's say if I when
actually Johan was a goodexample, he was introduced to me
(26:04):
by somebody I didn't know whohe was.
The guy who introduced me tohim I have a deep relationship
with and so going and he wantedme to meet Johan.
He said, said he's awesome, youshould get him to speak to your
mastermind and he is coming tospeak soon.
And but when I approached him,I approached you have to
approach them humbly.
You have to go to them and sayyou know this might be an ask
(26:28):
from nowhere.
I don't have a relationshipwith you.
My buddy, bob says you are theguy to talk to when it comes to
ai and I would love for you and,based on that recommendation
alone, I want you to come speak.
And I I had a zoom call withhim, got to know him a little
bit.
Um, he's your partner, so Ithink you like him too.
(26:48):
Yeah, he's not a bad guy.
Yeah, no, he, I mean he, he hasan infectious personality, he
really does.
So I said you know, I feel thisis a bold request.
He didn't think it was a boldrequest and the interesting
thing was I went in, I said youdon't know me, I don't assume
people know who I am.
That's being a good influencertoo.
(27:08):
Because then he said to meBrian, I've read your book, I
know who you are, I followed you.
I know you, you are, I followedyou, I know you published
Breakthrough Advertising by GeneSchwartz.
I know you work with GeneSchwartz.
So now, okay, now he knows whoI am, he probably trusts me
because I've been in thebusiness for 40 years.
But he has to like me too, andto do that takes time.
(27:39):
It's about time.
You know it's.
It's you.
You know all of your questionwas long game.
This is the long game, and soyou don't have to know somebody
for 40 years to ask them for afavor.
That's not what I'm saying.
But you need to always be therefor them, you always.
It's a cumulative relationship.
Um, I have a quote in, uh, in,in, in, in, um, over, deliver,
leads off one of the chapters.
It says you know, noteverything in business and life
(28:02):
is a revenue event, buteverything's a relationship
event, and I'm not the first onethat said that or believes that
I haven't invented anything.
But if you can run yourbusiness on that base level and
everything else comes off ofthat, you're going to be playing
a long game.
Because the other thing was inchapter 10, the last chapter of
(28:23):
the book.
The title is Playing the LongGame and my quote for that
chapter.
I lead off every chapter with aquote, and that quote is a short
one from Marty Edelston, whichis life is long.
You know, everybody says lifeis short and Marty used to say
life is long, it's the only oneyou got.
You got to play it that way andI just love that expression.
(28:43):
Nobody, very few people talkrun around talking about life is
long.
They say life is short.
I got to make hay while the sunshines.
I got to, you know, in the showHamilton, you know why does he
write like he's running out oftime?
He was running out of timebecause Alexander Hamilton got
in a duel with Aaron Byrne anddied at I don't know, 29 or
something.
But you don't have to writelike you're running out of time.
(29:06):
You don't have to.
You shouldn't be complacent,which I already talked about as
one of the regrets that I havein my career.
If it's a regret, it's just Iwould have done more things
faster.
Um, but time is important.
Relationships are not immediate.
Like I have so many people thatthink they're my best friend, I
don't know, I don't hardly knowthem.
(29:26):
Wow, um, and and if they callme a best friend, I better be
their best friend.
If I call them one of my bestfriends, I better mean it.
It better have some bulk to it,and it doesn't happen overnight
.
It's about, you know, havingcustomers for life.
Oh, even if, even if lifetimevalue is five years, it's better
(30:00):
than one, and so I.
And then also staying within asopposed to going to the outside
.
Um, you know, gettingeverything you can out of all
you've got.
These are all the themes that Ilive by to.
You know, basically, play along game.
Walt Bayliss (30:17):
Yeah, definitely I found the lifetime value.
You know, as a software guymyself, you know getting that
residual income coming throughis just something unbelievable.
But the relationship is moreimportant than the money.
Keeping that relationship on aneven keel that allows the
relationship to survive three,five, ten years, even if there's
a financial transaction behindit.
Brian Kurtz (30:38):
So that brings me to the last one.
There's a great framework thatI got from Dan Sullivan from
Strategic Coach, who's the topentrepreneur coach in the world,
and it's the five ways we getpaid, and the fifth is cash.
Right, wow, it's powerful.
Walt Bayliss (30:57):
That's really cool .
Brian Kurtz (31:00):
One of them is referrals.
One of them is you know, Ialways forget them.
I live them.
I don't need them, but it'slike you know you appreciate,
appreciate is one.
So all the things you'regetting paid, you know so many
(31:20):
different ways, and cash is thelast one that's the.
Walt Bayliss (31:23):
That's the truth.
I think, like, as we're nowtalking about influences and and
growing brands and that kind ofstuff in record time um, that
message is something that'sreally important as well.
It's not just about what you'redoing today, it's not just
about that prank on that video,or it's not just about something
.
It's's about playing that longgame that allows you to be in
that space for a very long time.
(31:43):
So that brings me to themastermind.
I'm fascinated by the conceptthat your life now, project-wise
, revolves around the mastermind, the titans of marketing and
getting in the room with thoseincredible people.
And we said before you own theroom, you create the room,
you've created the room of 250and growing of the best
(32:08):
entrepreneurs on the planet.
How does that impact your life?
Tell me about the mastermind,tell me about putting it
together.
Tell me about how thoserelationships are working with
your daily life how that, uh,those relationships are, are
working with your daily life.
Brian Kurtz (32:24):
Yeah, so I had I.
I one of the other regret, Ijust sort of another regret, and
I'll lead into the mastermindthing.
It was that when, at boardroom,you know, there was a line that
one of my copywriters once said.
He said, you know, brian, youat boardroom you probably sold a
billion and a half worth ofproduct, 39 at a time, freaking
hard I'm not proud of that andthe reason I'm not proud I think
you should be.
That's a a billion and a halfworth of product, $39 at a time,
freaking hard.
Walt Bayliss (32:43):
I'm not proud of that and the reason I'm not
proud of it I think you shouldbe.
That's a billion.
I think you should be, butcarrying on.
Brian Kurtz (32:47):
The reason I'm not proud of it is that I could have
gotten to a billion a lotfaster if I had Ascension
programs, if I had higherproducts, I mean we were like
you took a lot of micro steps.
Walt Bayliss (32:58):
It could have been a few giant leaps, exactly.
Brian Kurtz (33:01):
We were basically stupid.
In a lot of ways we weresuccessful, but we were stupid
because we didn't have anessential program.
When I left boardroom because Ihad 34 years of developing my
relationship capital of therelationships that I had
developed I started a mastermind.
I did a dissension model.
It just shows you the power ofrelationships because most
(33:22):
people start a mastermind.
They start one at $197 onlineand they work their way up.
I started with a $25,000 a yearmastermind Wow.
And I got 30 companies into it,eventually Started with 23,.
But that's a do the math.
That's a $600, that's a sixhundred thousand dollar business
like that wow, and good marginstoo.
(33:43):
So I wasn't.
But that's, that's theeconomics of it.
But the beauty of it was thatyou know, I was able to create,
as you said, create the room.
This was a live in-personmastermind, three meetings a
year with all the best speakers.
Because again, the 34 years Irealized I could bring the best
people in.
I could.
I can not only all the bestspeakers, because again the 34
years I realized I could bringthe best people in.
I could not only have the bestmembers, I could have the best
(34:05):
speakers.
And the members became speakersin the group.
Everybody shared what they weredoing.
So the room was like an amazingroom of 30 of the top
entrepreneurs and it was sosatisfying because every one of
those 30 has an audience of10,000, a hundred thousand, a
million, and so I felt like, soyou talk about how it made me
(34:27):
feel it wasn't just about me,but what it was so satisfying
that I was bringing in all thiseducation, all of this
information.
They say you go to a mastermindfor the information and stay
for the inspiration, and I hopeI think I did that, because they
came in and we shared, and oneplus one equals three, and
everybody was hugging in andhugging when they came in and
(34:48):
hugging when they left, and thatwas the most actually that
might be the most satisfyingthing that everybody came to
these meetings.
I had an 80% renewal rate, 8-0year to year and for seven or
eight years, and the thing Iwanted for it was that I wanted
people to come into the roomgiving each other hugs and leave
at the end of the meetinggiving each other hugs, and I
(35:11):
achieved that after the firstmeeting and I realized this was
what, not that what I was meantto do.
I don't like to look at it thatway, but it was something just
so powerful for me.
So then what happened was COVIDcame.
There was this thing calledCOVID, and I lost a few members
and I, I was losing my, I waslosing my desire.
(35:32):
I did, I did a couple of themeetings virtually and they were
great, even got better speakers, because I got speakers who
didn't want to travel and I gotthem on screen.
So I, I mean, I had, you know,I had some of the most.
I had Russell Brunson, I hadRyan Dice, I had amazing
speakers.
And so I said you know, insteadof going to 30 companies with
(35:54):
their tentacles, why don't I godirectly to a bigger group and
do it as a virtual mastermind?
Interestingly, I thought ofthat idea before the pandemic.
So I sometimes like to say thatI predicted the pandemic
because I did the virtualmastermind on Zoom, which is the
one you were referring to 250called Titans Accelerator, and
(36:16):
that one is low.
I went from $25,000 to $ 000 to2 000.
It's only two thousand dollarsa year.
It's very expensive.
Yeah, yeah, descension program,not ascension.
And so I, I have 250 members.
It could be bigger too if I, ifI wanted to work at it more.
I'm not.
I'm not going for building itthat big, but I can if I want to
(36:40):
.
And the satisfaction there isthat I'm actually helping more
people directly.
When I had the 30 big companies,I was helping them with their
audiences more.
I'm much more hands-on with the$250,000 at a lower price,
(37:00):
which is ironic, right.
I'm spending less time andeffort with the $30,000, making
$600,000 or $700,000.
And with the $250,000 at$400,000, they're needier.
They sometimes drive me crazywith their questions or whatever
, but equal satisfaction, I mean.
(37:22):
I think your question was agood one.
It's like how do I feel and howdo I get satisfaction?
I get satisfaction when someonesays you know, you told me
something.
Actually, this is the best whensomeone I wrote about it
recently in a blog Someone tellsme, not that I gave them the
deep, dark secret that theynever heard before, because I
(37:45):
don't have those but if theytold me that I explained
something that was not myinvention, but that I explained
it in a way that it got to themand they understood it.
Finally, that's as satisfyingas it gets for me Because you
know, basically by giving them,by being the messenger for
something that is game-changingfor them, that's what jazzes me
(38:10):
the most.
Walt Bayliss (38:11):
Yeah, I've read that from a teacher's point of
view that nobody knows thefounder of mathematics, but
they'll always remember theteacher that made it clear for
them.
Brian Kurtz (38:21):
Exactly, exactly.
I haven't invented that either,I know that, but that's the
thing that.
That's the thing that that, youknow, really drives me.
I think, amazing complicatedmarketing stuff that people
can't get to because they can'tget to the experts, and I can
get to the experts.
So that's one of my.
(38:42):
I mean, basically, I have agolden ticket into a lot of
rooms just because I've beenaround for a long time.
Walt Bayliss (38:47):
I hate to say it that way, you've created that,
though Like I mean deliberately.
You've built that golden ticketpiece by piece to allow that to
happen, by playing the longgame, by creating those
relationships, which is amazing.
So what's a day in the life ofBrian Kurtz look like these days
?
Brian Kurtz (39:02):
Every day is a little different, but one thing
that I do is I map out my weekwhere I have no calls or
meetings on Mondays, I have nocalls or meetings on Wednesday
mornings and I have no calls ormeetings on Fridays, and so by
starting there, I block and thisis a Dan Kennedy thing in terms
of time management but I blocktime for myself and for the
(39:27):
stuff that I really love to do,Not that the meetings and the
calls and the podcasts.
They're fun too.
I'm having a good time today.
I hope you are too.
Walt Bayliss (39:34):
Me too.
Brian Kurtz (39:35):
Absolutely, but by leaving Monday and plus some of
it is to make sure that I get tothe gym and get a, you know.
So that's Monday and Wednesday.
Friday is my writing day.
I dedicate Friday to writing.
I do a blog, but if I want towrite some other stuff or I want
(39:57):
to do an email series for youknow, selling the Breakthrough
Advertising Bootcamp orsomething like that, so that
sort of starts my week, but thenTuesdays, which we're doing
this on a Tuesday.
That's why, because Tuesdays,wednesday afternoons and
Thursdays are like, you know,they're not, they're not a
(40:20):
hundred percent work, but causeI get my works, my play, for the
most part, but it's it's, it'sthe stuff that you know is
interaction with others, it'smaking sure I'm, I'm responding
to all my emails, um, it's umand and it's all about
connection, like in chapter 10,where I the chapter 10 of my
(40:41):
book where I said you know,playing the long game I started
off with life is long.
And then the first sentence is Ihate the word networking and I
was known as likes and 30s.
I was like in direct mail, thedirect mail world and the list
(41:02):
world.
I was like the guy who kneweverybody and I hate that
Because in fact, there was atrade magazine that did an
article 30 under 30.
So it was like 30 people towatch who are under 30 years old
and they did a profile of meand the headline was strategic
(41:22):
schmoozer and schmoozer and andthose you know, people don't
know what a schmoozer is.
It's like someone who's like,always, you know, cuddling up to
people and shaking everybody'shand and patting them on the
back and like just you, justbeing the person with 5,000
Facebook friends and none ofthem and no real friends.
And so that was another bigmoment in time.
(41:47):
I said I don't want to be astrategic schmoozer.
If I'm seen like that, thatsucks, and I wasn't like that,
but it was perceived by this guywho wrote the article about me.
So that's when I committed torelationship, capital, going
deep with people, all of that.
And that's what really drove meto the things that I do today,
(42:10):
which are not best in time andtime management that I respond
to every email from my blog post, not right away, but I always
try to respond to everybody.
I try to give everybody, youknow, um, the, the grace and the
and the respect that if theyabuse it, I have to tell them
too much.
But generally I like to, I liketo be cause.
(42:32):
You know you can talk the gameof relationships you gotta, you
gotta deliver on it.
So I let basically what thatthing is I hate.
I hate networking led to.
I contribute to connect.
Nice, that's my life.
Walt Bayliss (42:46):
That's my life, I can see that one like is that is
that your daily mantra?
Brian Kurtz (42:50):
I contribute to connect yes yes, that's, that's
what yeah, yeah, but contributeto connect is is is critical for
me.
Walt Bayliss (43:01):
What do you see happening from here on in, man,
Like you've got, you've got, uh,what some would say is a, a
beautiful, ideal life, and I waslistening to uh to somebody
yesterday, Dan Martell, talkingabout building a life that you
don't ever want to retire fromit's.
Why would you want to retirefrom something that's just so
fun?
What's what's coming up for you?
Brian Kurtz (43:18):
That's that's lighting you up.
What's next?
What's the, what's the thingsthat's keeping you, uh, driven
and focused?
Yeah, it's funny, dan martell.
I I saw him speak at a, at a,at an event, and he's, he's
amazing and he's a greatsoftware developer and he's made
, uh, he's probably made abillion dollars, if he's not a
billionaire.
He's closed, probably, yeah,and he, he basically one of the
(43:40):
joe polish interviewed him at,at one of the one of the
mastermind meetings and he, hetalked about, like you know,
ignore email was one of histhings and I said to myself you
know, he's probably right tobecome as successful as he is in
terms of assets and whatever,but I'm happy responding to
(44:02):
every email.
Yeah, right, you know.
So there's different strokesfor different folks, but, um, I
respect him to no end and he's,you know, by any measure, he's
far more successful than I am interms of, you know, um, um, you
know his, his net value, forsure, but I've got a lot of
(44:22):
value that's not in dollars andhe does too.
I'm not saying I'm better thanhim or anything like that, or
I'm worse than him, but there'sdifferent ways to measure it.
And so, as far as what'slighting me up now, the life you
don't want to retire from.
Walt Bayliss (44:39):
What's that the life you don't want to retire
from's that the life you?
Brian Kurtz (44:42):
don't want to retire from what's the yeah, no,
and I definitely don't.
I mean I want to continue toretire from things I don't like
to do.
I want to continue to retirefrom things I don't do well, and
I want to continue to retirefrom people I don't want to hang
around with anymore.
So that's where I retire from.
But I'm not.
I'm working full time, whateverfull time is for me, and I
(45:02):
think I want to continue myTitans accelerator group.
I want to make it better andbigger, and not just bigger in
size, but get even differentspeakers, some well-known, some
not so well-known.
I love the people like getting.
Getting Johan was like adifferent.
Getting Johan was like adifferent.
I mean, people in my groupdon't know who he is Right and
(45:23):
that alone gets me excitedbecause he's brilliant and he's
doing great stuff, as you know.
And my group doesn't even knowwho he is, and my group is
fantastic copywriters andmarketers and they're going to
be blown away.
So finding new talent reallylights me up, nice, and they're
going to be blown away.
So finding new talent reallylights me up.
And, in fact, and thenjuxtapose with that to that, I'm
(45:44):
doing a live event, a live inperson event, this October and
it's a 11 year anniversary ofthe Titans of Direct Response,
which was an event that I hostedin 2014 before I left boardroom
, and it was a tribute event toMarty Edelston, who had died in
2013.
And it was.
(46:04):
Dan Kennedy was the guy I didthe event with and he, he, he
labeled it the event of thedecade.
Now it's the decade of the 2000teens.
But, um, uh, but.
And I had, you know, talk aboutthe Watts.
I mean, I had, I had DanKennedy.
I had, you know, joe Sugarman,who's amazing, he's dead now.
(46:28):
I had Perry Marshall.
I had Ken McCarthy.
I had Jay Abraham.
I had Guthrie.
I had Greg Ranker of GuthrieRenker, the top infomercial.
I had Fred Katona, the topradio direct response guy.
I had amazing copywriters GaryBensavanga, the best living
(46:48):
copywriter who had retired, cameout of retirement to present
there.
So I wanted to.
I was going to do a 10 yearanniversary, but I didn't.
It wasn't a hell, yes, and Itry to, I try to like, I try to
practice, but I didn't.
It wasn't a hell yes and I tryto.
I try to like, I try topractice essentialism, which is
a great book, by the way, byMcCune, and he has a thing, you
know, hell yes or no.
And it wasn't a hell yes at 10years, but at 11, it was a hell
(47:30):
yes.
So that event is is now I'mstarting to plan it and the key
is, as far as the watts I'mgoing to bring to that event, I
want to have some that's.
That's that seems consistentwith where I am in my life and
my brand.
I'm a little intimidated by it.
I threw my hat over the overthe fence and said I'm going to
do this event, not knowing how Iwas going to do it or you know
(47:54):
what it was going to be I did itsmaller.
The original Titans directresponse event was a 350 person
event at anywhere from thirtyfive hundred to five thousand
per ticket.
So it was.
It was a big event.
This won't be as big as maybe80 people max.
So that's got me turned on alittle bit.
And Titans Accelerator and youknow also, just you know,
(48:18):
continuing to learn.
I mean, I belong to, you knowthree masterminds that I pay to
be in and going to.
Those meetings are exciting.
And then, on a personal front,my daughter is pregnant and I'm
going to be a grandfather thisyear.
Thank, you.
Walt Bayliss (48:34):
So that's on the personal front.
Brian Kurtz (48:35):
But yeah, I think that's what Thank you.
So that's on the personal front.
But yeah, I think that's whatyou know.
I'm trying to stay engaged at agood level, but not at a level
where I'm doing stuff that Idon't like to do and stuff that
I'm not good at.
Walt Bayliss (48:49):
Amazing, amazing.
Well, thank you so much fortaking the time on a Tuesday to
come and hang out with us andchat through some of these
things Would have been on aMonday or Friday.
Brian Kurtz (49:00):
I'll tell you that.
Walt Bayliss (49:01):
I love it.
I love it and thinking therelationship lesson there and
playing the long game.
Boys and girls, you're hearingBrian Kurtz tell the story, so
follow along with Brianbriankurtznet.
There's a ton of free stuffthere.
You can subscribe to hisnewsletter which, as you heard,
(49:24):
is going to be writing everysingle Friday and dropping the
blog posts out there as well.
Brian is leading the way interms of relationship capital
and in today's world where weare creating influence so
quickly, creating attention soquickly, the message here to
understand that relationshiplong-term and to invest in those
returns for that future issomething that really resonates
with me and I appreciate yousharing with Matt.
I hope that it was on pointthough because I know it's about
Love it, I love it, I love it.
(49:45):
I think it's amazing we didn'ttalk about influencers in
particular, but-.
Oh, we did in every single way.
In every comment that came out,we talked about influencers,
because the words that we'retalking about are influence, and
I think that's the real messagehere is that the influencer
themselves is somebody that cancreate attention quickly, but
the long game of thatrelationship and the messages
that we're sharing is so, so, soimportant.
(50:06):
So, Brian, I'd love for you topop back on and tell us how you
go with that October event.
Let us know.
You know the people that camein the room and what lit you up,
and you know how all that cametogether.
It'd be great to hear back fromyou.
Brian Kurtz (50:16):
I would love that, and also when Johan speaks.
You know, maybe I'll do alittle.
We can do a post-mortem of thattoo.
Walt Bayliss (50:26):
Nice, yeah, that'd be cool, That'd be great.
In the meantime, guys head onover to briankurtznet, follow
along with the man that has soldmore than a billion dollars $39
at a time, the hard way andsome lessons to be learned there
.
Brian Kurtz (50:44):
Drop on over to briankeistnet.
And again, brian, thank you somuch for spending the time with
us.
We really appreciate it.
Thank you, will.
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