Jo Schonheim: How to UnF**K Your Business Branding

Discover the transformative power of empathy in sales with Joanne Schonheim, the mastermind behind Candid Maven, as she joins us to reveal the secrets of her sales evolution. From recognizing the pivotal role of understanding client needs to the art of shaping sales as a consultative partnership, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss. Joanne's approach will challenge you to rethink your sales strategy and embrace the subtleties of crafting genuine connections that lead to organic growth.

Venture beyond the basics with us as we dissect the intricate dance between sales and marketing strategies. From pinpointing your Ideal Customer Profile to distinguishing between different types of leads, we cover the essentials that every business owner needs to maintain a healthy pipeline and drive sustainable growth. And with Jo's LinkedIn prowess, we'll show you how to cut through the noise and make your brand's message resonate. Whether you're looking to refine your marketing efforts or enhance your sales playbook, this episode promises to be an arsenal of practical tools and strategies.

Wrap up your listening experience as we explore the entrepreneurial landscape, highlighting the qualities necessary for success and the undeniable value of a strong network. For anyone questioning if they've got what it takes to make the leap or how to bolster their skill set, this episode is chock-full of wisdom. We're not just about ideas; we're about actionable steps that propel you forward in your business journey. So join me and Joanne as we equip you with the knowledge to navigate the complex world of sales, marketing, and entrepreneurship.

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Episode Transcript

Walt Bayliss (00:00):
Done and done All right.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank youso much for joining me.
We are on the Sales, startupsand Side Hustles podcast and
today we have an incredibleguest who is a mother of two.
She is a rainmaker, she's beenemployed as a head of sales, she
has brought in a sales directorfor HubSpot and she's now a CEO
and founder helping businessowners unfuck their business.

(00:22):
And that's right.
I said that in the title Putthe kids to bed for this one.
We're going to have some fun,as she is the CEO and founder of
Candid Maven, helping businessowners and founders get out of
their own way, understand theirbrand and generate sales and
client acquisition strategies.
It's an incredible pleasure tohave her on the show and I
welcome Ms.
Joanne Schonheim.

Joanne Schonheim (00:41):
Joanne thanks so much for joining us.
I am so excited to have youhere.
How did you get started in thiswhole sales world?
Thanks, Walt, and lovely to behere today.
I have been in sales like mostsalespeople, got into it
accidentally, ended up beingheadhunted straight out of uni

(01:02):
to be a buyer for a fine jewelrycompany, so that's how I got my
start in terms of like theretail world.
I understand that is sales interms of like what it is that
you're selling.
But went to live overseas for afew years and came back and
ended up starting my ownbusiness it was a retail super

(01:23):
hyper, hyper niched business anddid that for almost eight years
and so being at the call faceand dealing with the general
public I joke that I literallymet every man and his dog and
dealt with all the crazies outthere and learned how to get to
the bottom of like what theproblem is that people were
actually trying to solve, andlearned that ability to adapt

(01:45):
your communication style and tobe able to build trust and
rapport really quick andposition yourself as the trusted
guide that has the solution andis an expert in their problem
and then being able to close andbe able to ask for the money,
because I find a lot ofsalespeople really struggle to
ask for the money and whenthey're rejected, as in like

(02:07):
they lose a sale, they take itpersonally.
So I learned all that stuff thehard way through eight years of
being public, facing with thegeneral public and, yeah, that's
how I got into sales straightinto the deep end and into the
fire, so I think something thatyou said there is interesting.

Walt Bayliss (02:25):
You are able to get to the root of the problem
and then ask people for money.
And I feel like, as we talk tofounders, startup people,
business owners, entrepreneursglobally they know what they do.
I can say to somebody what isit that you do?
And they're passionate about it, they love what they do, but
then it's turning that what do Ido?
Into how does that solve yourproblem?

(02:45):
And then, importantly and whatwe're going to spend a lot of
time on our call today turningthat into a sales opportunity.
When we spoke just before, weturned the microphone on the
idea of Candid Maven, yourcurrent company, where you're
taking business owners andyou're helping them create those
lead gen opportunities.
Is that your baseline?
You want to help peopleunderstand what they do, get out

(03:06):
of their own way and createthat message to market.

Joanne Schonheim (03:09):
So, yes, and I think there's something really
key that you just said, and thisis the differentiator.
Most business owners orsalespeople that I know have
this approach, which is I havethis widget or I do this magic
thing and everybody should wantmy magic thing, or everybody

(03:32):
should want my help.
And so they think that theirjob is to say look how amazing
my magic thing is and I'm goingto convince you of all the ways
that my magic thing is the nextbest thing since sliced bread.
And I think that's thefundamental flaw in the logic
and the approach, which is it isnot about you and your magic

(03:56):
thing.
No one gives a fuck about you,no one cares how good you are,
no one cares how shiny it is.
It's irrelevant, because thatapproach is saying I have
something and I'm going to tryand sell it to you.
My approach is it has nothingto do with me, it has nothing to
do with how good I am and ithas nothing to do with how shiny

(04:17):
the magic thing is that I'mselling it's.
What are you struggling with?
What do you want and currentlydon't have?
And what's in the way?
Because if you could get it bynow or you could have discovered
that solution by yourself, youwould have.
So there's something in the way.
So let me ask you a fewquestions to understand what it

(04:42):
is that you're actually tryingto get to, and what have you
tried up until now and whathasn't worked and, again, what's
in the way.
And so everything that I do interms of a sales approach, even
from a marketing perspective, isempathy led where the focus is
entirely on your prospect oryour customer.
It has nothing to do with you.
All you're trying to do is getto the actual source of the

(05:06):
problem, and a lot of the time,customers are trying to solve
the wrong problem and that's whythey're in the fucked up
position that they're in.
And so I spend more timediagnosing and going further
upstream to identify where thesource of the issue is, because
typically, they come to youtrying to solve a symptom and
that's why, no matter what theydo, it still doesn't work,

(05:26):
because they're looking in thewrong direction.
So if, after diagnosing theright problem to solve, if the
shiny object or the thing that Ihave can help fix that, well
then great.
Let's put together a plan ofwhat we're going to do next.
And again, you need to bepositioned as the guide, the
trusted guide, as being anexpert in their problem.
The sale is like anafterthought, it's the end

(05:49):
result and by then, if you'vedone your job really well,
you're not selling them anything.
They're coming and asking can Ibuy it please?
And then the price and whateveris just a formality of like
this is where I sign on thedotted line, or here's my credit
card.
Yeah, so it's a completelydifferent lens that I look at

(06:10):
the transaction.
In fact, it's not a transaction, it's actually a relationship.
It's a power dynamic where yousit on the same side of the
table as your prospect orcustomer.
You put the problem in themiddle, you look at it together
and you solve collectively, andobviously you're supposed to
know more than they do in termsof helping work out what the

(06:32):
solution is.
But the sale is just aby-product.
It's not the energy with whichI enter the discussion.

Walt Bayliss (06:40):
Cool, I love it.
So I'm going to come back tothat a little bit more because I
feel like I'm diving into thatproblem-solving approach for a
business owner and I really wantto focus on when should
somebody come and speak to you?
How do they know they have aproblem?
But before we get there, let'sgo upstream a little bit from
that concept because I feel likeas a salesperson, I've done
years and years of sales, buteverybody that's our listeners.

(07:01):
They're selling every day.
We hope if you're not, what areyou doing?
Get out there and sell somemore stuff.
That's the only way.

Joanne Schonheim (07:06):
Tell you're not eating.

Walt Bayliss (07:07):
Yeah right, exactly so.
I've done a fair bit of it, butI think taking the approach
that you're talking aboutfinding, diagnosing what's the
problem, mr Customer, how can wehelp you solve it I believe is
so, so, so, so, so valuable.
But what do you say to thepeople that are saying well, I
can't afford to do that witheveryone.
I'm going to kind of see if Ican put words into your mouth
there.
I think it's more like you haveto be approaching the right

(07:29):
people in the first place, right?

Joanne Schonheim (07:31):
Correct.
So that's where qualificationis so key, right.
So, again, like when I helpfounders build a lead gen engine
, the first thing that I look atis qualification.
The first thing that you wantto be doing out of the gates is
to be yes, no, yes, no, yes, no,yes, no in terms of the people
that you're either approachingor approaching you, and that all
starts with getting-.

Walt Bayliss (07:52):
Because otherwise you're just going to book out,
right, you're going to book outwith time wasters and people
that aren't even part of yoursolution.
You need to make sure thatyou're speaking to the right
people.

Joanne Schonheim (08:01):
Correct and so that, all again, going further
upstream, that all starts withgetting super clear on your ICP,
on your ideal customer persona,and not bullshit like they're
male and they're 25 and theylive on the East Coast of the US
Demographics essentially ispretty much useless.
It's what's the problem thatthey're struggling with, what

(08:24):
are their values and what aretheir buying beliefs that they
have, and that's why, again,it's like the and so I was
saying to you before we startedrecording I get real deep, real
fast.
I skip all that top layer stuffbecause it's mostly useless
data, unless I can take a bit ofthat data and infer other
things in terms of you know, ifit's this, then it actually

(08:48):
means that they believe this,this and that about them, for
example.
But it's going from ignoringthe external problems and
uncovering the latent problems,which is, their internal
struggles, and then, mostimportantly, what's their
philosophical problem thatthey're actually trying to solve
.
So back to your question.

(09:08):
Qualifying goes back toidentifying your ICP, getting
really clear on that, then beingable to qualify really easily
in or out in terms of right fit,wrong fit, and then, if they
seem like they're the right fit,that would then mean that they
were a market qualified lead?
And then again, superimportantly, another set of
qualifying questions, which isare they a sales-qualified lead?

(09:31):
So, do they have the budget?
If they don't have the budget,are they willing to create the
budget?
And B, is this something thatneeds to be solved now?
Is there necessity and urgency?
And what's the cost of notsolving it?
Because we can all walk aroundwith a pebble in our shoe, right
, but if you've now got anabscess and your toe's about to

(09:54):
fall off, well, now we've got areal issue.
Stop everything.

Walt Bayliss (09:59):
Now it's an urgent problem, now it's urgent.

Joanne Schonheim (10:01):
Exactly, it's on fire.

Walt Bayliss (10:03):
So how many business owners, Jo would you
say, are marketing incorrectlyin terms of this, creating this
ICP?

Joanne Schonheim (10:11):
Let's ask a different question how many
business owners are evenmarketing?

Walt Bayliss (10:16):
Wow, I'm so stunned by that.
I sat in a business communitygroup.
I was invited to come and speakat a morning group one of the
breakfast meetings for businessowners, kind of stuff and I
simply asked how many people inthe room are currently running
ads?
It's like less than 10%.
Everybody's just relying onword of mouth.
What are you guys doing?
So yeah, let's focus on that.
How many businesses are evenmarketing?

(10:36):
Somebody once told me thatrunning a business without
marketing is like winking at ablind horse you know what you're
doing, but they have no idea.
So do you find that often thatpeople are just sitting back
waiting for the bell to ring?
The doors are open, they're notactually going to market.

Joanne Schonheim (10:49):
Yeah, because in my experience and this is
back from working with DentGlobal, which was a business
accelerator which showed peoplehow to position themselves as a
key person of influence, tocreate warm inbound
opportunities and establishthemselves as a thought leader
in their niche industry Is thatpeople typically aren't

(11:13):
marketing, because typicallypeople get into those businesses
in the first place because theywere a great technician in a
big corporate or whatever,pushing their five buttons.
They were the best at what theydid and they realized that they
could go out on their own andthey could start a business.
So they ended up being sort oflike an accidental entrepreneur
and they've just propagated thatemployee mindset in terms of

(11:33):
just delivering value, tradingtime for money, and that's why
they get stuck in what's calledthe wilderness and they aren't
able to scale into what's calleda lifestyle business, and so
their business starts withpeople who know them from their
inner circle and then they do areally great job.
So then it's obviously repeatbusiness and then they tell

(11:54):
someone else.
So now it's word of mouth andthe problem is right.
I think it's like 12% or 17%that you can only grow, and
that's the difference betweengrowing and scaling.
So you can only grow a certainpercentage and you bump your
head on a very low ceiling.
And then, especially now inthis digital age, people who
don't have a lead engine inplace and aren't attracting net

(12:17):
new business, who are completestrangers.
Those business owners are nowcoming to me because what they
used to do is no longer.
It's still working, but it's nolonger enough, and now they're
literally starving because theirpipeline they're not.
They're so focused ondelivering value now and just

(12:37):
expecting new business to keepcoming their way that they're
not building pipelines sixmonths out.
And it's a trouble, exactly, andthen you a trouble, exactly,
and then you end up obviouslywith like really lumpy cash flow
and stress.

Walt Bayliss (12:50):
I mean that's where I find most entrepreneurs.
That's where it comes from.
They stress that people talkabout the sleepless nights and
the cash flow struggles and allthat kind of stuff, and 100%
it's because they're not fillingthat pipeline right.
It's just that they're notthinking six months out.
We're going to need to warm upthese people.
We're going to need to havepeople in our pipeline.
We're going to need to createconversations.

Joanne Schonheim (13:10):
They have no idea how to approach net new
people.
Yeah, so back to your originalquestion.
I think most founders are notdoing any actual quality,
effective marketing and theyusually have very little idea
about sales.
So even if they personally canclose the deal because, again,

(13:30):
it's part of their network, sothat relationship and trust and
rapport is already there, butthey don't know how to start
that with someone who's astranger, where their reputation
, their personal brand, doesn'tenter the room before them.
And so, even if they're able toclose their own deals, they
really struggle when they bringon team because there's no
actual sales methodology,there's no sales process,

(13:53):
there's no sales playbook andthat's again something that
founders are coming to me forgoing, because they know I come
from such a strong salesbackground.
They're like, can you actuallyhelp me document this?
Because, let's say, they've gota five-year exit plan and I'm
like that is like the number oneasset you need to be building
If you want to be able tosuccessfully sell this company.
You need to have a documentedprocess and asset of a sales

(14:16):
playbook, because the momentyou're extracted out of the
business, if all the value ishinged on you, you're fucked.

Walt Bayliss (14:22):
Yeah right, your business is worth almost nothing
.
You can't even go on holidays.
You're done, the money willstop.
So I think I answered thatother question, Jo, when should
a business owner come and speakto you?
And it's like as soon as theyrealize that they've got that
problem.
They've got no new leads comingin and they haven't got a
documented sales process andthey just have no clear process
of what they're doing.
But let me wind back a littlebit On your profile as I was

(14:45):
researching, getting you ontothe show and again, thank you so
much for the chance to say hi.
One of the things that isprevalent about your brand and
your marketing is that you havea very clear distinction between
sales and marketing and you arevery clear about the piece that
most business owners justcompletely mess that up.
They put them in the samebucket, they approach in the

(15:06):
same way.
So what is it about sales andmarketing being in different
buckets that drives you so crazy?

Joanne Schonheim (15:16):
so and I was actually the penny really
dropped for me yesterday.
Um, I was commenting on abrilliant thought leader is
actually a former client of mine, now turned friend, james
michael, who specializes inrecruiting people's first sales
salesperson, who struggle withexactly this in terms of
bringing on bringing on asalesperson and being sales
ready, because a lot ofbusinesses are aren't actually

(15:38):
ready to bring on a salesperson.
And even just working inHubSpot, working in CRM land,
marketing automation it justreally came into crystal clear
focus, which is it's not thatsales and marketing are in
different buckets.
Sales and marketing areabsolutely in bed together, but

(16:00):
they are at different stages ofthe buyer's journey in terms of
where you're at in therelationship.
So when it's net new businessand it's a prospect and it's
cold, they're a stranger.
Marketing's job is to attractthem and warm them up and
qualify them so they become aprospect.
So that would be like marketingat the beginning of the buyer's

(16:24):
journey.
And there's a difference betweena customer's journey and a
buyer's journey.
And I'm specifically saying thebuyer's journey because, again,
empathy led all aboutunderstanding and meeting where
they're at, not where you'retrying to shove yourself on them
.
So marketing starts in as a umas a stranger they start and

(16:45):
create.
That initial relationshipbecomes a prospect, which is
also then sort of um businessdevelopment, which is sort of a
hybrid between marketing andsales, when it's actually then a
market qualified um lead passedon to sales, who then sales
qualifies them, turns thatprospect into an actual

(17:06):
opportunity, tries to solve forwhat it is that they're trying
to solve for, and if it's a goodfit, then that person now goes
from having been a stranger tonow being a customer and that
relationship has developed anddeepened.
And you should be collectingpsychographic data about that
lead the entire way, reallygetting to know them incredibly

(17:28):
well, until you're then atrusted business partner who
then hopefully becomes achampion or an ambassador and
continues feeding the funnel.
So marketing and sales are notseparate.
They should be working hand inhand.
They are absolutely in bedtogether.
But marketing is like the onethat goes out to the bar and
tries to pick someone up andsales is the one that actually

(17:49):
like introduces them to theparents.

Walt Bayliss (17:51):
So it's the relationship of the buyer's
journey.
Nice analogy, I like it.
So I think, as that journeygoes through, you mentioned
something there which I amguaranteed that 99% of our
listeners are going to freak outabout.
You said, all the way alongthat journey, you should be
collecting psychographic data.
What kind of information isimportant and why should
businesses be collecting that?

(18:12):
And I mean we can talk HubSpotor Salesforce or GHL or any of
the other CRMs that are outthere like irrelevant of the
platform that you're using.
What should they be collectingand why should they do that and
how should they do that?
Like, what's the what's thereason behind that?

Joanne Schonheim (18:24):
That's such a great question.
I love that you asked that and,just by the way, I'm not a tech
person by nature, and so for meto have gone and worked for
HubSpot speaks volumes of whatHubSpot stands for, and even the
whole concept of a CRM, aclient relationship management
tool.
It's like where tech meetshuman and meets feelings,

(18:48):
because everything about salesis about feelings, because it's
emotion, and so everything thatI do with my clients is about
eliciting emotion and extractingemotion and interpreting that
emotion.
So, to answer your questionabout psychographic detail, the
devil is in the detail, and thisis where being great in sales

(19:11):
is reflective of your ability toask deep, insightful,
meaningful questions.
And obviously you have to buildthe trust and rapport with that
person to even have thepermission to ask those
questions and for them to openup.
And so people used to say to meholy crap, I've literally met
you six minutes ago and I'vetold you more about myself than

(19:34):
I have my friends and family oreven my partner Like, how did
you get that out of me and how Ido?
That is because I am genuinelydeeply interested and fascinated
.
Everything is tell me more, andso you should be capturing that
in a CRM how many kids theyhave, do they have a dog?

(19:57):
How did they start in business,what sort of coffee do they
like, like whatever informationyou manage to glean as a by the
by.
That stuff is super importantbecause in order for a prospect
to be willing to entertainhaving a conversation with you
because all of this is aboutstarting a relationship and then

(20:19):
deepening the relationship isyou have to what we call show me
, you know me, and so when youpay attention to that detail and
you show genuine curiosity,it's so rare that you will
absolutely stand out and be apattern interrupt and the level

(20:41):
of trust that you build and howelevated that relationship will
become very, very quickly.
That's where the gold is,because every human being wants
two things only to feel seen andto feel understood, and that is

(21:03):
the greatest gift you can givesomeone is to deeply, actively
listen to them and make themfeel seen and understood.
So you capture all of thatwhich is a psychographic data,
you put it into your CRM andevery time you have a
conversation, you go back andyou prep for that call before to

(21:23):
make sure that you'recompletely across that person
and they're a person, not even aprospect or a customer, they're
a person so that you can pickup where you left off and show
and demonstrate that you'reactually listening, because
there's nothing more annoyingfor a person to have to repeat
themselves or to say why are yousaying that?

(21:44):
I already told you threeconversations ago that I've
already tried that and itdoesn't work.
You weren't actually listeningto me and then bam, you've just
lost their trust and basicallythe sale is pretty much dead
basically, the sale is prettymuch dead.

Walt Bayliss (22:03):
Is it the same sales process, the same sales
step-by-step system that we'retalking about for all levels of
transaction?
I'm getting the understandingthat we are talking about deep,
consultative style selling, andI've seen people do this in a
one call scenario where they godeep on the front end.
They understand everybody,they're taking notes during that
call.
By the end of the call it's atrusted friend and an advisor.
That's an incredible thing.
I've also seen where you, youknow, coming from your beginning

(22:25):
retail which is like walk in,buy something, walk out.
So is there a differencebetween the way a sales cycle
should be engineered dependingon the level of business of the
product Correct and this is theinteresting thing If of a
product, of a company, Correct.

Joanne Schonheim (22:39):
And this is the interesting thing If you
look at my career and that's whyI joke that I've never done the
same job twice but it allactually comes back to the same
thing, which is a round table,and I've sat in all the
different seats so that Iunderstand all the different
agendas and what's important toeach one, and so that's how I
know how to handle them all.
So I've done everything from atiny transaction of $1.40 in a
retail environment all the wayup to giant, super complex

(23:03):
18-month sales cycle, working intech, selling into corporate
accounts where there are like 17stakeholders, and it's just a
clusterfuck of detail andproject management.

Walt Bayliss (23:14):
Did you get it?
Did you get the deal yeah?

Joanne Schonheim (23:16):
Nice.

Walt Bayliss (23:17):
Did you get the deal?

Joanne Schonheim (23:18):
Yeah, nice.
Again, back to understanding thebuyer's journey and
understanding how short or howcomplex and what are the buying
beliefs and what are thequalifying criteria that a
customer would have to tick allof those things off in terms of
you satisfying in order for themto feel confident and have

(23:41):
clarity, because that's the twoother things they need to buy
from you is confidence, um, andclarity.
And so, yeah, the the buyingprocess is different depending
on the sales cycle, so it'lljust have way more steps for a
longer one and there'll be waymore stakeholders, and so your
approach would be like amulti-threaded approach that you

(24:02):
have, hopefully, more than oneinternal champion.
You've identified who are thedeal blockers, who you need to
like get on side, so it becomeshighly strategic and real long
game vision.
But they all have the samething in common, which is, no
matter how long or short thebuyer's journey is, everything

(24:24):
that you do in terms of thatsales cycle is earning the right
and setting up and coming to anagreement of what that will be,
of what's the next step.
So you're not thinking abouttrying to sell your thing, it's
just keeping the conversationand the relationship going, and

(24:44):
that's why you really have to bepatient and be able to see the
longer game and be able to holdoff that need for instant
gratification.
Your instant gratificationneeds to be I earned the right
to the next step and I know whatthe next step is.
We have an agreement on whatthat will look like.
Right, the transaction is nevergoing to happen unless the trust

(25:04):
has first of all been givenacross the line, which is very
cool, you cannot accelerate itfaster than Mark McKinsey, who
runs a great outbound company,and he talks about it as no
faster than the speed of trust.

Walt Bayliss (25:21):
Perfectly said.
Yeah, absolutely, and it has tobe conveyed before any
transaction will happen.
Jo, how do you help a businessowner who has this fundamental
core belief?
Yeah, but Jo, I just reallysuck at sales.
I'm just not a good salesperson.
Right Now you've got a companyfounder who's got a great widget
, who has a fundamental corebelief that they suck at sales.

(25:43):
How do we help that person?
How do we get them tounderstand that sales are still
possible?

Joanne Schonheim (25:51):
So I think I can pretty much guarantee you
you that anyone that thinks thatthey suck at sales has this
faulty story and belief.
And once you remove that beliefand replace it with something
else, the problem is largelysolved.

(26:11):
And that belief is that whenyou are selling, that it's a
personal thing.
You're trying to sell yourselfin some way.
So either your services, yourskills, the shiny widget that
you built this or the shinywidget that you represent, and
if the sale then falls through,that person takes it personally

(26:35):
and experiences it as rejection.
So the story they're living outof is if I lost a sale, that
person rejected me.

Walt Bayliss (26:46):
Yeah.

Joanne Schonheim (26:47):
And so they're like oh, I don't have a thick
enough skin for sales, I can'thandle this.
And they fall apart at theseams because again they're
making the mistake.
A, they're trying to sellsomething.
So that's the faulty thinkingin the first place, which is
switching that to someone.
If they're the right fit and wehave the right solution,
they're going to ask to buy fromme, which means then you can't

(27:12):
ever be rejected, because eitherthe person is asking to buy
from you or they're not, and ifthey're not, it's not a right
fit.
It has nothing to do with you.
There's nothing personal aboutsales.
So once we've corrected thatfaulty story that they're living
out of and that faulty belief,then they can stop taking it

(27:36):
personally.
We can then say cool.
So here is the process.
Here are the decision-makingcriteria that a standard person
goes through in terms of beingcomfortable and having clarity
and confidence to buy from you.
It's really, really obvious.

(27:59):
It's repeatable, it's the same.
We're all wired the same interms of the way that our human
brains work.
We all have a little reptilebrain on our shoulder looking
for red flags when we'recommunicating with a stranger,
working out whether it's safe toproceed, whether we're going to
be screwed over, whether we'regoing to lose our money, whether
we're going to be fired if wemake a wrong decision in buying
something that doesn't actuallywork, and I can actually explain

(28:22):
the psychology behind each oneof those steps.
So when people work with meagain I get real deep, try and
explain and use a lot ofstorytelling and analogies so
that way it's easier to take onboard and actually learn, so
that you understand in yourbones.
It's now part of your DNA, it'struth.

(28:45):
You can't now forget it orunlearn it, because it's now a
worldview that you have.
And once you learn thatworldview that you have, and
once you learn that, like again,you can't unknow it.
Once I show you, you can'tunsee it.
And so it just shifts people'sentire perspective.

Walt Bayliss (29:04):
I've seen that and to help people along that same
journey, I saw a YouTube shortwhich I thought was amazing in
my study of sales, where it wasdone, in the UK.
So this guy had a pile like athick handful of 50 pound notes
and he was just literallywalking up to strangers and
offering them a 50 pound note.
And for those of you who arewatching this on the video, the
reaction was like this, but forthose of you listening it was

(29:26):
like people were backing awaywith their hands in the air,
going don't come near me, broDude, I just want to give you 50
pounds, like I'm giving youfree money, and people are still
saying no.
And from a sales lesson pointof view, if people will say no
flat out to just money in thehand done for nothing, then of
course you're going to need tobuild the trust in order to earn
that sale.

Joanne Schonheim (29:45):
Can I tell you why they said no?

Walt Bayliss (29:46):
Please tell me they don't trust them.

Joanne Schonheim (29:49):
No, no, no.

Walt Bayliss (29:50):
Tell me.

Joanne Schonheim (29:55):
So it's actually Robert Chialdini,
that's how you pronounce hisname, his book called.
Influence, which is like a Biblethat a lot of sales and
salespeople and marketers follow.
It's an innate again how we'rewired as humans the social debt
of reciprocity.
So if someone gives you 50pounds, fuck, I don't want 50

(30:17):
pounds from you because now Iowe you something, you did me a
favor or you gave me something.
That will stay as an open loopin their brain that until
they're able to then repay thatfavor somehow or buy something
from you or do something kind inreturn, so that it's equal
somehow to the 50 pounds, thatliterally causes pain for people

(30:40):
because it's an unsolvedproblem.
It's an open story loop thathasn't been closed.
So when people automatically dothis, they instinctively know I
don't want to go into debt withyou.

Walt Bayliss (30:54):
Wow, amazing, I don't know who you are.

Joanne Schonheim (30:55):
I don't know to go into debt with you Wow,
amazing.
I don't know who you are.
I don't know what your agendais.
Something is very fishy andweird about this, but all I know
is I don't want to enter into atransaction where I'm now
indebted to you.
Fuck off.

Walt Bayliss (31:09):
Right.
So that way we've got to getthat person who feels like the
sales rejection is personal tounderstand that it, who feels
like the sales rejection ispersonal, to understand that it
is a communication of yourservice and an understanding of
that service from the otherperson, from the client, from
the customer, so that there's nodebt.
It's like I deliver this andyou pay me for it and it's a
great transaction and, if at any, time it has to be a fair and

(31:31):
that's the thing.

Joanne Schonheim (31:32):
The 50 pounds, the mistake that that
experiment is based on, is 50pounds is too much.
But if he'd gone and saidhere's a stress ball people
would have taken it.
People would be like okay, cool, I'm happy to take something
that probably costs two pounds.
That's a debt I'm willing towear, because it's not

(31:53):
significant enough thatsomeone's going to genuinely
expect me to repay them.

Walt Bayliss (31:57):
Amazing, amazing, amazing.
So I think we're talking aboutfinding people and allowing them
to make sales, create newcustomers.
I love that.
The net new customers that's agreat comment that I haven't
ever heard before.
Net new customers.
How many new business contactsare we going to drop into our
funnel this month and how are wegoing to process them through a

(32:18):
specific series so that we canorganize them and work with them
to becoming a customer Alongthat way?
Jo, do you find that a businessowner needs to be more
communicative with theircustomer database?
Do they need to create podcastsand YouTubes and social media
posts?
Is that part of business thesedays?

Joanne Schonheim (32:35):
Love that you asked that question and it's
funny because, as I said to you,the microphone that I connected
this morning is a podcastmicrophone which was gifted to
me a year ago with the intentionof me starting a podcast.
And I didn't start a podcast,because a podcast is a great way
to build an audience of highlyengaged people, but it's

(32:59):
typically terrible in terms ofsales.
So you'll have, like, peoplewho are deeply, passionately
fans of yours, but it's notnecessarily going to result in
sales.
And so if you're starting out,or even if you've been in
business for a very long timeand you're stuck in that low

(33:19):
ceiling of just doing business,of word of mouth and repeat
business, and there are very fewnet new customers coming in
because you're not generatingleads, in my experience, hands
down, the most effective andefficient way to possibly

(33:39):
prospect and bring in net newcustomers is through LinkedIn.

Walt Bayliss (33:44):
And this is why.

Joanne Schonheim (33:44):
I've gone all in on LinkedIn.
It's got over a billion users.
It's the richest platform ithas.
All the decision makers, allthe C-suite, are on LinkedIn.
It's no longer, oh, that'swhere you go if you're looking
for a job or you want to post apicture once a year of, like
some business awards dinner thatyou went to and you're so proud
of your team, and then you tag50 billion people and no one

(34:07):
else other than those peoplelike it.
But LinkedIn is the mostefficient and effective way to
get your not your company pageyou as the CEO, founder to get
your name out there and startbuilding your online brand and
your online reputation withpeople that you would never,

(34:29):
ever have met, and startconnecting and building those
relationships and allowingpeople to understand and see,
because you're demonstratingthem your values, so that way
they can see whether they feellike, they know, like and trust
you.
And in order for people to buyfrom you, they need to have so
many touch points.
I think it's Google Analyticsthat said 7-11-4, which is like

(34:52):
seven hours of content haveconsumed by you across 11
different touchpoints acrossfour different platforms, and so
, when you're showing up onLinkedIn every day or every
other day the amount oftouchpoints that you're getting
with those prospects.
You're just absolutelyaccelerating that relationship
and shortening that sales cycleand in my experience I found

(35:14):
that the people that end up inmy DMs which is where I end up
closing pretty much all of mydeals are people that have never
engaged on any of my posts.
They've not liked it.
They've not commented.
I've never heard of them before, but this entire time they've
been consuming my content andgoing through that sales cycle

(35:38):
themselves of do I think she isan expert in my problems?
Do I trust her?

Walt Bayliss (35:48):
There it is.

Joanne Schonheim (35:48):
Does she seem like that someone I would want
to have a coffee with?
Do we share similar values?
Do I like her communicationstyle and does it look like she
actually knows what she's doing?
And then bam, they appear inyour DMs and they're pretty much
ready to buy.

Walt Bayliss (36:06):
They're coming to you with a buyer's question and
able to engage a relationshipthere.
I know Arnexingal wasfascinating for me when he was
talking about using social mediaand he did millions of dollars
worth of experimenting and cameback and said do not sell on
social media because that is thefastest path to an empty bank

(36:27):
account and it's not what it'sbuilt for.
And so Arnexingal was talkingabout using social media for
exactly that Letting peopletrust you, know you understand
who you are, what you doRelationship building, all of
that Starting a conversation,building a relationship.
And when they come to you insocial media, then they have
engaged with you already, as yousaid, across multiple content.
Now I know there's millions ofdifferent courses out there on

(36:48):
LinkedIn and building yourprofile, and one of the things
that you offer people is theirability for you to do an audit
on their profile.
So, guys, you can go toLinkedIn and you can search
Candid Maven.
You'll end up with Joanne'spage, but better, search Joanne
Schonheim and I'll make surethat that link is in our show
notes here as well, so you canconnect with Jo.
You can understand exactly howshe's using this medium to do

(37:09):
what we're talking about here.
What I was going to say was,though there's a million courses
on LinkedIn and social media,marketing, all that kind of
stuff.
I think probably the most commonquestion people are going to
ask is what should I post?
Now?
I I have a a secret weapon,which is chat GPT, but do you
have and literally just going tochat GPT and going I'm in this
space, what should I talk abouttoday?
And like getting 20 ideas andgo great, there's one I can.

(37:29):
I can turn the camera on andrecord a couple of minutes
easily.
Do you have a preferred way ofscheduling or creating that
calendar of content Jo.

Joanne Schonheim (37:39):
Absolutely so.
This is why my tagline isfounders, let's unfuck your
brand messaging, because inorder to unfuck your brand
messaging in the first place,you need clarity, and clarity is
the hardest but most valuablething you can ever have, because
when you have clarity, all ofyour resources and time and

(38:03):
attention that you're pouringinto what you do is pulling in
the same direction.
There's no leaking of energy,there's no splitting of focus,
and so, in this digital age, themost powerful and, again, cost
effective and efficient way todo it is to have such an
incredibly clear signal that theother half of the magnet picks

(38:26):
up on your signal that you'resending out and finds you, and
that's how you build your tribe.
So the point is just like whatI spoke about with marketing and
sales earlier getting clarityon your ICP, on your ideal
customer persona.
Who are they?
Literally, they have a name,they are a person.

(38:46):
So it's Andrew and he is inblah blah, blah and these are
his buying beliefs and this ishow he operates and these are
what his values are, and theseare the other products that he
typically buys and this is whathe believes in.
So that way, you have thatliterally one person in mind of
who's the ideal customer, thatif you could have a hundred more

(39:07):
Andrews, you'd be like sittingpretty and then you create
messaging and content speakingto Andrew, and because you have
clarity on Andrew's deepestpains and his goals are the
things that he wants to achieve.
Your content needs to beaddressing that, so that when

(39:27):
Andrew comes across your content, he goes is she talking to me?
Because that's literally likeeverything that's going on
inside my head.
That is exactly how I feelabout that and that's exactly
the language that I use todescribe how I feel about that.
That's how I came up with thetagline of founders let's unfuck

(39:48):
your brand, your brandmessaging, because the people
that come to me A they I can'thelp them if they don't realize
they have a problem and thatproblem needs to be intense,
whether it's unbearable, so thatthey're ready and they're
willing to solve it now and it'snot negotiable.
They cannot continue a momentlonger knowing that their brand

(40:11):
messaging is fucked.
So they don't know how tounfuck it.
They just know it's fucked andthey're like please, someone
help me.
So, even though I'm not doingthe typical formula of like, I
help founders do this so theycan have more of that Like.
That's just a yawn fest, but italso attracts the type of
customer that I want to workwith, which is someone who has

(40:34):
probably hidden courage and doeshave the ability to be bold.
But again, they haven't likekind of given themselves
permission or they're kind ofoverthinking it, and so they
come to me because they knowthat they need more of what I
have and that that's probablythe thing that's in their way.
So I'm not going to make themlike me, but I'll elevate them

(40:56):
10, 15% from where they are,which again unblocks them and
gets them to where they need tobe.
So back to your originalquestion in terms of creating
content super clarity on what'sthat one person that if you had
100 more of them you'd be sohappy, getting really deep into
the things that keep them up atnight and the language and the

(41:19):
emotions that they use todescribe those problems, and
then you literally createcontent talking to that person.
So when they see it, they go.
She's talking to me, I have tospeak to her.

Walt Bayliss (41:33):
Nice, I like it and demonstrating again exactly
walking the talk, as as you dothere, Joanne.
So um, creating that content inan, in a space that allows the
right prospects to connect withyou, so that you can bring them
into your, into your world Again, capturing that data about them
and and conversing with them ina way that um transmit trust.
You know them, you understandthem, and then sales becomes, as

(41:56):
you said, almost irrelevant.

Joanne Schonheim (41:58):
It happens naturally the buy, the buy.

Walt Bayliss (41:59):
The transaction's already happened.
I know I understand what you'redoing and where you're at, what
your pain points are.
I have a solution that solvesit and I'm passionate about it.
Let's get together and, as yousaid, I love that analogy as
well Sitting on the same side ofthe table with the problem in
the middle, both looking at it,rather than from opposite sides
attacking different things.
So, Jo, I think there wassomething there that you
mentioned as well, where a lotof business owners or startup

(42:21):
founders let's go with that Alot of entrepreneurs have come
from a tech skillset, so they'vegone.
I'm really good at X and I workfor this company and I'm tired
of trading my life and all ofthat kind of stuff that
entrepreneurs go through andthen they say I'm going to go
out on my own and I can do this,and they end up being a
technical person in abusiness-related world.
First of all, is there a personthat should stay an employee?

(42:47):
Is there somebody that, for me,I go?
No, everybody should beeverybody, but I understand
that's not for everybody, right?
So in your experience, shouldsome people just never be a
business owner?
And I'll follow up that with asecond question of when they
take that plunge?
Is there a fast path to theskill sets they're going to need
to create their own future?
Do you believe so?
First of all, should, shouldsome people just stay an

(43:08):
employee and never take theplunge?
The ones that do what?
Should they do to create thatmore rounded approach as a
business owner?

Joanne Schonheim (43:15):
Cool, so great questions.
If you don't have an appetitefor risk and you're not willing
to back yourself and you don'thave trust and faith that if you
fall off the tightrope you willfind a way to get, to pick

(43:36):
yourself back up and get back onthe horse and keep going, and
if you don't have an imagination, if you can't imagine what
could be and all you can see iswhat's in front of you and you
need to be told what to do andyou want to just color inside

(43:56):
the lines and paint by numbersand just be a good, if you just
want to be a safe pair of hands,then you should probably not be
an entrepreneur, because it'snot for the faint hearted and it
takes a significant amount ofgrounded optimism and you also

(44:25):
have to have the.
You have to have an abundancemindset.
So I once I once interviewed anentrepreneur who wanted, who
wanted to be an entrepreneur andshe had started a business, but
she she came from, she was amerchandise planner, which is
like procurement and buying, andwe met and she's like oh my God

(44:45):
, I just did my books and Isaved, I got my costs down to
like 7% and I was like what I'venever heard anyone talk about
growing their business and speakabout it from the lens of how
much money they saved.
What the actual fuck?
I don't care how much money yousaved, how much revenue did you

(45:07):
generate?
So it's all about do you havethe ability and the imagination
and the desire and the energy tocreate more?
And that I think that's reallywhat it comes down to.
Are you an amplifier?
Can you create energy?
Can you create something fromnothing, or do you have to

(45:31):
inherit everything?
Or do you have to inheriteverything?
If you have to inherit thingsand you're not a builder, please
, for the love of God, stay safeand stay as an employee,
because if you've got a mindsetof the safety officer versus,
like the artist, two totallydifferent mindsets and stay an

(45:53):
employee, because theentrepreneurs need you, so stay
as an employee.

Walt Bayliss (45:57):
We love you.

Joanne Schonheim (45:58):
Exactly, we can't all be entrepreneurs.
Like the world would fall apartif we were all going around
building shit.

Walt Bayliss (46:04):
So to your second question yeah, no, it'll be a
struggling place.
If we were all like gettinginto that creative zone like
nothing, there would be brokenshit everywhere.

Joanne Schonheim (46:11):
Nobody would be getting anything done.
Someone needs to be the safepair of hands Right, and we need
you, yep.
Exactly To answer your secondquestion, which is, if somebody
does want to get into it, what'sthe most kind of?

Walt Bayliss (46:25):
efficient way to acquire that skillset.
I don't get those skills Likethat's, it's a, it's a big jump.

Joanne Schonheim (46:28):
Totally so.
There's a really great way ofleapfrogging it, and, and it's
through the power ofpartnerships and your
environment.
So it's it's, you know, thewhole Ubuntu thing of like if
you want to go fast, go along,go alone.
If you want to go far, gotogether.
So it's what do I?
First of all, play to yourstrengths.

(46:50):
Don't try and be good ateverything.
Don't waste your time trying tomaster shit that that
de-energizes you, because youwill make way less progress.
You don't need to be great ateverything.
You can outsource.
Or, again, partner with peoplewho are already great at that,
who've already nailed it.
Don't waste your time learningsomething that's already been um

(47:11):
solved, and so it's stand onthe shoulders of giants.
So partner with people who havewhat you want and have it in
abundance, but don't value it tothe same level as you do,
because they just take it forgranted and you're not competing
with each other.
So it's potentially the samecustomer base, for example, but
you solve totally differentparts of their problem, and so

(47:32):
it's not competitive.
And then the other thing, inaddition to partnerships, is the
environment.
So be very, very careful aboutyour environment and who you
spend time with, because, again,being an entrepreneur is so
freaking hard Like.
You don't need naysayers and,yes, you can have people that

(47:53):
kind of bring you back down toearth a little bit, but you
can't have anyone that's goingto come and literally pour water
all over you know this tinylittle fire that you've just
managed to start the embers.
You need to be hanging aroundwith amplifiers that can can
grow that fire into a bonfireand they're going to be cheering
you on and help you andcollaborate and mentor you.

(48:17):
So hang out with people thathave already done what you want
to do and that what you want todo is normalized.
So if you want to publish a book, hang out with other people
that have published a book.
Don't hang out with yourfriends from high school and
sometimes even your partner oryour family, where for them the

(48:38):
alarm bells go off of likethat's dangerous.
You don't know how to do that.
There's no data to say thatyou'll be able to do this
successfully.
So be super mindful of thecompany you keep what you share
with people and get aroundenergy amplifiers.
Partner with people thatalready have what you want in

(49:00):
abundance and are willing toshare with you or collaborate,
and get into an environmentwhere being an entrepreneur,
taking those risks, doing thosethings and being at that level
of success is totally normalized.
So be the poorest, dumbestperson in the room.
Find that room.

Walt Bayliss (49:18):
I love it and there's plenty of those rooms
around.
By the way, guys, there's somany groups on Facebook and on
LinkedIn where you can be partof a community for free and you
can get that training and theinteraction with people and
hanging out.

Joanne Schonheim (49:29):
That's why LinkedIn is so great.

Walt Bayliss (49:30):
Oh, it's amazing, and there's so many great
environments for it.
It's so good.
So, Jo, I think I can hear thepassion that you have for
entrepreneurs and founders.
I can hear the passion that youhave for sales and creating
great client acquisitionstrategies, and I can really I
can feel that.
So what's happening for you,like where will we see you over
the next sort of six to 12months?
What's happening in yourbusiness, in your life and in

(49:52):
your growth?

Joanne Schonheim (49:58):
Cool, so I'm all in on LinkedIn.
I actually said to my partnerlast night it's so funny he was
teasing me endlessly because Isounded like the biggest dork.
Because I work remotely, Ibasically like I'm in company of
myself every day and the onlytime I meet anyone is if I go to
my local coffee shop and see mylocal community and chat and
meet some business owners,whatever they're, by you know,

(50:20):
by accident, incidentally, andLinkedIn is especially for a
salesperson or someone frommarketing.
We love novelty and we lovemeeting new people and starting
new relationships, and so Idescribed LinkedIn like turning
up every day to a new partywhere you're just constantly

(50:41):
meeting new people and startingnew conversations and being let
into conversations that youwould never have access to.
Like yesterday, I commented ona post from the CEO of the
Telegraph UK and I put avaluable, insightful comment and
it was interesting enough andof value enough that she
commented and then a whole bunchof other people went and loved

(51:04):
it.
I'm like this is what I'mtalking about you get access to
people that you would never,ever have access to.
It's a total meritocracy everhave access to.
It's a total meritocracy so youcan engage and start a
relationship with anyone if whatyou share again is about them,
is about providing and sharingvalue for them, of what's in it

(51:27):
for them, not talking aboutyourself.
You can share your ownexperiences, but it's all with
the lens of how does thiscontribute to this conversation?
How is that?
How am I leaving that personbetter off than I found them?
How have I?
How have I genuinely addedvalue?
So, in terms of what's next forme, I'm all in on LinkedIn.

(51:50):
I am absolutely loving this.
I actually think and it's it'sjust's just an internal belief.
I don't know what the detailswill look like, but I have a
really strong feeling that thisnext 12 months is going to be
incredibly exciting and thatsome really juicy opportunities

(52:10):
are going to come my, because Ican feel that I'm building
enough net new networks andbuilding a net new reputation,
which is my personal brand, um,in enough different communities,
but all with the same thing,which is they are my tribe, in

(52:34):
that all of those connectionsare values-based.
So do those people align withthe things that I hold dearest
to me in terms of what'simportant?
Everyone else that doesn't I amnot interested in.
You either are what I classifyas a good human who deeply
values connection andrelationships and is generous of

(52:58):
spirit and again has a growthand abundance mindset.
Those are my people.
I don't care where they're from, I don't care which industries
they're in.
Only good things can come fromhanging around people that share
your values.
So you can find me on LinkedIn.
I'll be there every day.

Walt Bayliss (53:18):
We're going to see you every day out there, Jo.
So, guys, again, I'll make surethat the link's here in our
show notes, but it's JoanneSchonheim on LinkedIn.
You'll find her page withCandid Maven, but just Google or
look for Joanne.
So, Jo, I love the message.
Thank you so much for theopportunity to come and speak.
Guys, you've heard from Jo, andJo is literally here to help
business owners, founders createnew sales opportunities and

(53:41):
growth strategies for theirbusiness, and I believe that her
passion comes across in thisinterview.
So, so, so clearly.
And, guys, if you've got anopportunity in front of you
where you have a business thatyou're proud of, you want to get
started.
You want something that's goingon forward.
I think there's nobody betteron LinkedIn right now than Jo to
be able to follow along anddrive your own brand messaging
forward and unfuck your businessas you're going.

(54:02):
Unfuck your brand messaging asyou're getting that started.
So, Jo, thank you so much forthe opportunity to hear from you
and to understand what it takesfor business owners to create
that own future, and I can'twait to see what you're doing.
I think we're going to bewatching you explode on LinkedIn
.
I can't wait to see you hostingsome pretty big summits there
and talking to that tribe andcheck back in with us and let us

(54:23):
know how you're doing.

Joanne Schonheim (54:25):
Thank you so much.
I have really enjoyed this andthank you for an incredible
opportunity and I can't wait tomeet your community, if they're
anything like you, which I'massuming they are.
Um, yeah, I, I'm really lookingforward to expanding my tribe.
See you on the flip side.

Walt Bayliss (54:42):
Thanks so much, everyone.
See you on the next one.

Joanne Schonheim (54:44):
Thanks, bye.