Episode Summary:
There's a significant gap affecting nearly every financial advisor: the disconnect between their expertise & their ability to communicate it in a way that resonates with prospects. Hillary Gale, a former linguistics professor turned copywriting expert, shares insights on how advisors can transform their marketing through better messaging. She reveals strategies for identifying language that connects, having conversations that convert, and creating content that actually brings in business. From conducting "voice of client" research to crafting compelling lead magnets, Hillary provides practical frameworks for advisors to stand out in a crowded marketplace.
About the Guest:
- Hillary Gale founded Moneta Copy & Content after transitioning from academia, where she earned degrees in applied linguistics & taught university-level writing courses. Her background in teaching freshman writing classes gave her valuable insights into writing for specific audiences, which she now applies to help financial advisors craft messaging that resonates with their ideal clients.
Key Concepts Explained:
Voice of Client Research: Hillary recommends asking strategic questions to potential clients (not just existing ones) to understand how they talk about their financial anxieties, goals, & what they want in an advisor relationship. These insights can then be threaded into marketing copy for more powerful connection.
Beyond Demographics to Psychographics: Instead of just targeting "pre-retirees with $X in assets," Hillary suggests niching down based on personality characteristics, life visions, or specific goals. This approach helps advisors stand out & attract clients they genuinely enjoy working with.
The "Blue Ocean" Opportunity: Hillary discusses how to move beyond the crowded "red ocean" where most advisors compete for the same clients, to find unique positioning that connects with specific audiences. She cautions against arbitrarily selecting niches (like "medical professionals") without a genuine connection or expertise.
E-Books as Lead Magnets: Hillary explains how e-books (typically under 50 pages) can serve as powerful lead generation tools when they include interactive elements like worksheets or action items. She views them as complementary to physical books rather than replacements, with e-books being free entry points & physical books offering deeper engagement.
Practical Takeaways:
Gather Client Language: Incorporate questions into your discovery & onboarding process to collect prospects' exact language around their financial concerns. Hillary suggests asking "Why did you reach out to me right now?" during call booking to gather valuable insights.
Move from "Me" to "You" Perspective: Avoid promoting services from your perspective ("why you need life insurance"). Instead, lead with client perspectives, pains, & desires using their language, then connect solutions back to your services.
Find Your Natural Audience: For podcast guest appearances, look beyond financial shows to podcasts where your ideal clients gather. Hillary shares an example of an advisor who works with first responders appearing on firefighter podcasts about wellness topics.
Compliance Workarounds: Most compliance concerns can be addressed with simple word substitutions (like "pursue" instead of "achieve") or by focusing on storytelling approaches rather than promissory language.
Connect with Hillary:
- LinkedIn: Hillary P. Gale
- Website: monetacopy.com
- Podcast:
delivering excellent financialguidance to your clients, but
there's a challenge affectingnearly every advisor.
I know that few are equipped toovercome the gap between your
expertise and your ability tocommunicate it in a way that
resonates with prospects.
Our guest today knows thisreality all too well.
(00:22):
Hilary Gale not only spentyears studying the science of
communication as a linguisticsprofessor, but she's also
dedicated her career to helpingfinancial advisors bridge this
exact gap.
What started with a simpleinsight that advisors often
struggle to translate theirknowledge into client-attracting
language has evolved into amethodology that's helping
(00:45):
advisors across the countrytransform their marketing
results With the right words.
She's showing advisors how toidentify messaging that connects
, have conversations thatconvert and create content that
actually brings in businesswelcome hillary to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
How?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
are you doing?
Thank you, paul, I'm doing good.
I'm so excited to be here.
Yeah, so I really enjoyed beingon your podcast several months
ago, so I'm excited to have youon my podcast.
As a fellow marketer forfinancial advisors, I know that
we're gonna have a lot of fun onthis podcast just geeking out
and talking about concepts thatare near and dear to our hearts,
also super important forfinancial advisors to grasp so
(01:34):
that they can become moreeffective in their marketing.
And, as we get started, justkind of love to know a little
bit about your background.
Who are you and how did you getto the point you are now
helping financial advisors withtheir copywriting, branding,
marketing and things of thatnature.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, absolutely Well , I'm Hillary Gale.
I own Moneta Copy and Content,which is a copywriting agency
for financial advisors.
But we really come from astrategy standpoint.
So every project that we writeis built on a strategy that we
do first to make sure that it'sgoing to connect with the
clients and things like that.
(02:09):
Before I got into this andbefore I started my agency, my
background is actually inacademia.
I did an undergrad and amaster's in applied linguistics,
so I was really studying to bea teacher students of English as
a second language and so Ireally had this strong research
background.
I really enjoy researching.
I really enjoy answeringquestions and finding the best
(02:30):
way to do things.
So I ended up teaching at theuniversity level for five years.
I taught the freshman writingclasses like English 101 that
everybody kind of hates, but itgave me a really great
background in understanding howto write for audiences and what
the power of writing for aspecific audience was.
So as I was teaching this, Iwas also kind of absorbing it
myself and really kind of takingthose lessons to heart, and so
(02:53):
that really prepared me, I think, to go into marketing, because
when the pandemic hit in 2020, Ihad already been thinking about
leaving teaching for variousreasons.
When the pandemic hit and my jobsecurity was on the line and
things were changing in theteaching profession so much, it
was kind of my green light tosay, okay, I'm going to go all
in on working for myself.
I really want to work withfinancial advisors.
(03:15):
I had always had an interest inpersonal finance and my dad's a
CPA, so I had grown up havingthese conversations about
finance in my life and so I'dalways been really interested in
what are the best decisionsthat I can make with my money,
and so I was interested inworking with people who do this
every day and who help peoplemake good decisions with their
money.
(03:35):
I was like if I could get paidto write about these subjects
that I would be researchinganyways, that would be amazing.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, I can relate to a lot of what you said.
I started my own marketingagency back in 2015.
In 2016, my very firstfinancial advisor came to me and
at the time I knew nothingabout financial advisors, but
since I personally love workingwith them I've worked with close
to 500.
And just in that process oftalking to them, getting to know
them both of us without thatformal training, it's I feel
(04:04):
like I have a PhD in the mindsetof financial advisors,
especially when it comes to notwhat they do day to day in terms
of their actual core work, butin terms of what their pain
points are, what their desiresare, all those things that
really get into how you and Ihelp them achieve those things
and overcome those things sothat they can build their
practices.
You said that your father was aCPA.
(04:25):
Now, when you say financialadvisor and CPA, to me those are
a little bit different.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, they're like oil and water, right, and I do
actually think, the more thatI've worked with financial
advisors and the more that I'vetalked to my dad about the work
that I'm doing, I actually thinkhe's kind of a special CPA.
He is a very forward taxplanning minded CPA and he likes
to help people think abouttheir lifetime tax liability,
(04:51):
which I think is something thatfinancial advisors do so often.
And the friction I seehappening between financial
advisors and CPAs is oh, cpasare always just looking
backwards.
Right, they're always justlooking backwards and they're
not really thinking about thefuture and things like that.
But my dad always was and hejust retired.
Actually, as he retired, I wasinterviewing some of his longest
standing clients to puttogether a little video for him.
(05:12):
It was amazing to hear theimpact that he had on their
lives.
I really feel like he was moreof a financial advisor to them
than just a tax preparer.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, no, I think that's awesome.
So I definitely have a carveout for CPAs by training, but
also our forward thinking.
I think that's its own categoryof.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, I love it when I see CPAs who also have a CFP
designation.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
It's like the best of both worlds.
And so tell me about yourtypical client.
Why do they come to you?
What is it that they're lookingfor help with?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah, so my typical client is usually someone who is
the owner of their practice andthey're looking for help with.
Yeah, so my typical client isusually someone who is the owner
of their practice and they'rereally the only one, and they
might have a small team, maybelike a client associate or
someone just kind of helpingthem with the administrative
tasks, but they're really doingeverything themselves and
wearing all of the hats, and sothey usually come to me because
they are marketing themselvesand they see all these other
(06:04):
advisors out there creatingcontent online and really
showing up and getting someawareness, but they just don't
have time to do it allthemselves.
Or, if they do, they're posting, probably on LinkedIn, all the
time, but that's all they'redoing, and so they're not seeing
a ton of booked discovery callsfrom just posting on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
To be fair, if you post on LinkedIn, you'll get at
least 10 impressions, right?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right, I know right, but I see advisors who they're
posting on LinkedIn and they aregetting lots of impressions and
they're getting tons ofengagement and people love their
stuff.
There's one in particular,actually, that I spoke to just
earlier this year.
He has this great following onLinkedIn and he was almost a
little bit embarrassed to sharethis with me.
He was like people tell me allthe time that my marketing is so
(06:53):
good, but I don't actually geta ton of book discovery calls
from it.
So a lot of people are comingto me trying to fill in the gaps
and asking is there somethingelse I should be doing?
Is there like a better strategy?
Because this is working in thisway, but it's not working in
the way that I really need it toDo the advisors that you
typically work with.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
do they have a lot of headwind when it comes to
compliance, or are they able todo those things fairly well?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I would say that most of the advisors I work with,
initially they're worried aboutcompliance, but they don't
actually have as much headwindas they think they will, and
that's actually something that Ialways say.
We include two rounds of editsOne is for you to tell me what
you want to change, and two isfor compliance to tell me what
they want to change.
I don't get hardly any pushbackfrom compliance and I think
(07:40):
people are always surprised bythat because I do help them
write copy that's verystory-based and that's talking
about their experiences withtheir clients and things like
that.
If compliance comes back withchanges, for me it's usually
just a word or two.
I never have a problem andthere's always even if they do
have a problem with we don'treally like you to do case
studies there's always aworkaround that they're willing
to concede on.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, no, I do a lot of.
I help advisors write books,which is long form content.
Same thing.
It's like they're typicallyworried about compliance.
I think just more.
I think there's like a fear ofcompliance.
It's not necessarily everyinteraction they have.
It's like fearful and it'sdisturbed the nest and haven't
(08:21):
come after them.
But that's been my experiencetoo.
Is that even in some of themore strict compliance
environment, actually it's a fewwords and it's funny oftentimes
because it's like superlatives.
It's like sometimes you can'tsay maximizer If it's like
really strict maximizer.
Maximizing these words is likereally Until you get down to
okay for this compliancedepartment.
These are the kind ofparameters and once you get
those dialed in, it's prettysimple.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, it really is.
And and I like for each one ofmy clients, who all have
different compliance departments, I keep a little running list
for them of these are thephrases that your compliance
really flags and really doesn'tlike.
Compliance departments are notall aligned on what they're okay
with and what they're not okaywith.
A big one for me that I learnedreally fast in my career as a
copywriter for financialadvisors is just swap out the
(09:00):
word achieve for pursue.
It's not like we'll help youachieve the retirement of your
dreams.
We'll help you pursue theretirement of your dreams, and
then they're happy.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yeah, I think there's one that stands out to me and I
think it's pretty common.
It's like you can't say thatyou're an expert, say that I
have expertise in.
To me it's just so funny becausein my case, I help them write
books.
In your case you can help themwrite eBooks.
And it's typically you think,okay, if you're an author,
you're an authority.
By extension, you have you'rean expert, right.
It's like the whole notion islike showcase your expert status
(09:31):
, your expertise.
The sirens start going off.
I was gonna say at this pointit's a little bit of a game, but
I think for you and myself,once you can, understand.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
It's just kind of funny at that point.
Yeah, who comes to mindwhenever I talk about compliance
?
There's actually two advisorsthat they haven't been clients
of mine but they've been on thepodcast and they just have such
good compliance success stories.
Number one is Aaron Buchner.
Do you know Aaron Buchner?
Okay, so he's actually inCanada, his firm is called
Cactus and his tagline is prickfree financial advice, which is
(10:01):
pretty controversial.
And so he went to hiscompliance department and he was
just kind of like this is mybrand when he waited to hear
what they would say.
A few days went by and then hereached out and followed up Is
there any problem?
And because he had the firmname Cactus, to go along with
the tagline that he wanted touse, they were like we get what
you're trying to do here, youcan do this.
And then the other advisor thatcomes to mind is Dave Armstrong
(10:25):
of Monument Wealth Management.
Do you know Dave?
No, Okay, he's also a greatadvisor.
And he's another one who kindof toes that line of
controversial.
I wouldn't use this word todescribe him, but some people
might see it as unprofessional.
He's not afraid to usefour-letter words in his
marketing because that's how hetalks normally and he wants to
attract clients who arecomfortable with that kind of
(10:46):
language.
And so, with his compliancedepartment, he told me
compliance wants to prevent youfrom making promissory
statements.
I don't really care how you saythe other stuff, though.
And so I think there's just alot more freedom than you really
think there is If you just goto compliance with your ideas
and see them as a partner who'sjust trying to protect you, not
someone who's trying to preventyou from being yourself.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
No, definitely.
So one of the things that I'velearned in the years of studying
marketing and copywriting isthat good marketing is meant to
both attract your clients andthen the second part, which most
people overlook.
But it's also meant to repelpeople that you're not meant to
serve.
And so just in the firstexample about, I think, you said
(11:30):
don't be a prick or somethinglike that.
Yeah, prick free financialadvice, you're going to have one
or two reactions.
That's awesome.
I want to work with this person.
Oh, that's unprofessional.
And the funny thing is thatboth reactions so long as it's
working at some point.
If it's like it's not working,it's like why am I not getting
appointments?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
If it drives your appointments and the people that
show up are like your people,then that's awesome, and I asked
Aaron because he, prior todoing this rebrand, he was
working just under the advisor.
His firm's name was I know itwas last name and he was
attracting clients, but hewasn't really finding a lot of
joy in his work.
He felt like he wasn't reallyable to be himself and so I did
(12:06):
ask him after you did thisrebrand.
Obviously this sets you apartfrom a lot of advisors.
His branding is like brightorange, like it's very vibrant.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
It's like okay, this, and then like the other 99%,
which do you want?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So I asked him is your calendar just like filling
up with booked calls?
It's not that my calendar isjust like all of a sudden
filling up with all thesebookings.
It's not like this magic bullet.
But the people that I work with, or the people who are
attracted to me and that do findme, they're so similar to me,
they're quirky and they're outof the box, and so I find myself
really enjoying client meetingsa lot more and things like that
(12:44):
.
And he said I know that all ofthe efforts that I'm making
right now, they will compound.
So he totally expects hiscalendar to continue filling up
with bookings.
But I really appreciated hishonesty.
But it wasn't this magic bulletjust because now he does really
stand out from the 99%.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yeah, and I think, just to break it down, it's
really two things.
One to what you said, he'sattracting the right fit clients
, the people that he naturallythere's a mutual attraction
there, and then, in terms offilling up, that's a secondary
thing.
That's really about traffic andawareness and different things,
and so as long as you see thatthe process is working, then go
and scale it.
It's having the right brand ina vacuum isn't going to do you
(13:22):
any good if no one sees it.
But once you see that elementis working, now you have to
think about how do you scale itand really create the awareness
so that you can attract more ofthe people.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
What he told me was people whoare offended by my brand and my
tagline.
I don't want to work with themanymore.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, I have my own process so dialed in and I teach
this to my clients by extension, but it just works
exceptionally well.
Let's get into a couple othertopics that I would love to hear
your perspective on.
Most of my discovery calls withan advisor, I ask the all
important question who is yourideal client?
Now, this is typically beforethey've established a brand,
(14:00):
like you discussed, but it's ohwell, it's pre-retirees, because
they're the ones with the moneyand they're looking for
planning.
And there's this whole book outthere called Blue Ocean
Strategy and it's the whole ideathat, versus the red ocean,
where everyone's competing andit's very difficult and you find
a niche or a target audiencethat is less competition, how do
you guide someone from, I think, more of the norm, which is oh,
(14:22):
it's a pre-retiree 55 to 65-ishincome of this level, assets of
this level that's my idealclient to something that creates
more of a blue oceanopportunity for them?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
First of all, I think it makes sense that advisors
want to work with that type ofclient because, like you said,
those are the clients that havethe money right.
Those are the clients that havethe retirement accounts that
they're able to transfer over toan advisor.
They're not stuck in a 401kanymore or they won't be for
long.
So I get it why so manyadvisors say that's their ideal
(14:54):
client.
I like to help advisors drilldown and niche down further in a
way that really makes sense tothem.
It doesn't always for everyadvisor make sense to niche down
into a specific industry.
I think I see a lot of advisorssaying, well, I target medical
professionals, and for someadvisors that's absolutely right
, but for others that doesn'tmake sense.
(15:15):
To say, well, I only work withpeople in the tech industry or
whatever it might be.
So I like to help advisorsfigure out, explain the reason.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I know where you're going with that, but just to be
very explicit, say why that isnot effective.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Good question.
So again, I think it can beeffective for the right advisors
.
But if you're saying, okay,well, I'll drill down to medical
professionals because I knowthey have money to invest, but
that's the only reason.
And it's not that you alreadywork with a lot of medical
professionals.
It's not that you enjoy workingwith medical professionals,
it's not that you have somespecialized expertise that can
(15:48):
work with medical professionalsor something in your background
that's going to help you connectwith them emotionally, right?
If you can't say I'm doing itfor one of those four reasons
and I'm sure there's others thenit's not a good niche decision
to just kind of pick one out ofthe ether.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
So I totally agree and I've done this long enough
my 10 years where originallythis was, I think, a mistake of
my part, just when I learnedthis whole concept was oh, you
have to have a target audienceand pick one, and no, because
people will do just what yousaid.
It's like, well, medicaldoctors, they got some money.
It's like great, and thencrickets, and it's like just
(16:23):
what you said how many doctorsdo you work with?
None, maybe one.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Right, right, exactly .
That's not going to end upattracting that subset of people
to you anyways.
You have to be a little bitdeeper.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
And the second part is why do they?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
want to work with you .
Yes, that's such an importantpiece of the equation and why
would they want to work with you?
What are they going to get outof working with you?
And so I think there are somethings you can do to look at
your current client base anddrill them down a little bit
further.
I like to call it if you're notgoing to niche down by
demographics, you can niche downby psychographics and you can
(17:01):
start to build an ideal clientprofile, let's say, based on
somebody's personality,characteristics or maybe their
vision that they have for theirlife.
All want to sell their house andlive on a houseboat for the
rest of their lives.
I don't know why that is cominginto my brain, but if you have
a bunch of clients, that's theirparticular dream, and you know
(17:22):
that there are other people outthere who have that very
particular dream, and that'swhat you help people achieve.
That's one way that you cankind of start to niche down and
talk to a specific subset ofpeople that you really enjoy
working with and that are goingto see oh, this person can help
me do exactly what I want to do.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Just from my experience and perspective, it's
ultimately, the reason for thatis that you need to stand out.
How are you different fromother 99 people?
And then two you need to knowwhere to find them.
Right, hey, I work with XYZ,but where are you going to do
your marketing?
Right, you have to know whetherit's online or in person, or to
find them.
And at that point you startgetting more and more of them.
(17:59):
They start talking and thenyour close rate goes way up.
What people really want is that, even if you know, to me
there's two problems.
Problem number one gettingenough appointments.
Problem number two closingthose appointments.
Yes, Especially when it's anonline environment.
This Number two closing thoseappointments.
Yes, Especially when it's anonline environment.
This is different fromreferrals, where there's
(18:21):
transfer of trust, all thosegood things, but just again,
over the years, I've seen enoughwhere getting the appointment
is only problem number one.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Closing is number two .
Yeah, yeah, and you are goingto have a much easier time.
If people have already seen youonline and they see themselves
kind of fitting into what you do, they're already like I know I
want this thing and this guysaid he could help me get that
thing.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And, by extension, he understands us right, right
when it is.
He's also a houseboater, evenif my problems, which is really,
to be fair, it's all more orless the same stuff, but you can
speak the language, you canresonate, you can build rapport
Right right and I kind of regretusing that as an example I have
no idea why that popped into myhead.
I'm going to steal that.
Who are your people?
The house putters.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Are they house putters?
You know why.
I was talking to an advisor afew weeks ago.
I was helping with a rebrandand he was telling me about one
of his clients that he helped dothis.
So that's why it popped into myhead, I think.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
What's interesting.
I was talking to a client andwe were talking about getting
him on podcasts as a guest, andwhat I've discovered is that
it's not ideal to go for anadvisor, it's not ideal to be a
guest on podcasts on personalfinance, because they don't
really stand out.
If all the guests are personalfinance, then it's probably more
DIYers.
You can get some value, but bythe same token, it's not going
to have as much value as ifthey're actually on the podcast,
where their ideal fit peopleare.
And so this is a little bit ofa just in my head.
(19:36):
I'm like, okay, how do we dothat?
Who's the audience?
Really, it's pre-retirees.
This was a guy that was a CPAturned advisor, similar to your
dad, and just in asking himquestions, one of the things
that came up was that he and hiswife like to RV and just
drilling down a little bit, wegot into the conversation.
There are enthusiasts,organization groups, podcasts et
(19:58):
cetera about that lifestyle.
Yeah, and if he has a genuinepassion for it, he has the
ability to genuinely connectwith those people.
But it becomes like this almostsubset, because now if, going
on that podcast as an advisor,other people are talking about
lifestyle, they're talking aboutother stuff that is important
to our viewers, but they're nottalking about personal finance.
But all those people havequestions about personal finance
(20:19):
.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yes, this makes me think of another advisor that I
just talked with.
He works with first respondersin his community.
He works with police officersand firefighters.
My husband is a firefighter soI connected with him and you're
demonstrating right there.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
It's like, because you have that connection,
suddenly you go from justvanilla.
I have this expertise, so wecan connect like that Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
We have this passion for this community Right, and so
I want to talk to you.
There's all these podcasts outthere for firefighters that are
about like mental health and allthese things to do with
firefighting.
I'm sure it's the same forpolice officers too.
And if you can have an advisorgo on one of those podcasts.
That's not financial advice forfirefighters or whatever it
might be, but you're the onlyadvisor there talking about
financial wellness, wheneveryone else is talking about
mental health and physicalwellness and things like that.
(21:04):
You're going to get clientsfrom that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Absolutely.
By extension, you then have theability to break it down
further into their I call ittribal language, because then
you can talk about the specificproblems that firefighters face,
and whether it's retirement ortheir pension plan or this, that
and the other, and you can usecase studies of other
firefighters that you've helped.
And so now they're starting torelate because every other
(21:26):
financial advisor out there isjust some suit in an office that
, whether they have an advisoror not, they don't really
connect very well with, and soyou immediately stand out as one
of us.
Right, you're instantly one ofus, and so it has so much more
impact.
And I think, just by extensionnow this gets into, I think, the
core ideas behind copywriting.
Right, because it's really, Iguess, a very simple way that I
(21:49):
would describe it.
It's how do you get into thehead of ideal clients so that
when they either read what youwrite or listen to what you say,
they're thinking how did youknow that?
Have you been following mearound watching me?
How do you know that?
You seem to know my thoughts?
So, just from your experienceas a copywriter, how do you
either help with your servicesor how do you guide advisors to
(22:11):
be able to write that compellingmessaging or craft that
compelling messaging that reallydoes break through and grab the
attention of their idealclients.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, you said it you wanna get into their head,
right, we wanna get as close tointo their head as we can, and
so I find the best way to dothat is to ask them.
So if you have a subset ofclients that you are working
with that you would love to workwith more of those types of
clients, or even if they're notyour clients, but they would
make an ideal client they'rejust people in your network that
(22:40):
if you can ask those people toanswer a few questions for you
that you put strategicallytogether to try to get into
their head and to hear howthey're talking about their
financial anxieties.
Hear how they're talking aboutwhat do I want in the future?
Hear how they're talking aboutwhat they want in a relationship
with a financial advisor.
(23:01):
If you can get those words fromthem and then you can thread
those into your copy and yourmarketing, that's going to be a
really powerful way to connectwith the people, and I actually
just released a podcast episodeit's called Voice of Customer
Research With advisors.
I like to call it Voice ofClient Research.
Advisors always say I don'thave customers, so if you can do
(23:22):
this type of voice of clientresearch, that can be a really
powerful way to get into theirheads and to basically stop
guessing at what it is thatthey're thinking and saying and
actually get it on digital paperso to speak.
There's pros and cons forsurveying your clients that
you're working with or surveyingpeople in your network who
(23:43):
embody your ideal clients.
I actually prefer you to surveypeople who aren't actually your
clients because they're stillin that pre-client mindset,
whereas the clients that youhave they may have been working
with you for a few years, theymay be in a totally different
space than they were before theybecame your client, and it's
those people who are still inthat pre-client mindset that
(24:05):
you're trying to reach with yourmarketing.
So, whenever possible andthat's also easier from a
compliance perspective Sometimes, depending on your compliance
department, they have a problemwith you surveying your clients
anonymously, because if anythingcomes up, they want to know who
said that.
Do we need to address anyproblems, things like that and I
always think you're going toget better answers if you can
(24:28):
survey people anonymously sothat they'll be as honest as
possible.
They're not going to feelembarrassed about anything that
they're sharing.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, and to your point, if it's your own client
and hopefully you've been doinga good job and they love the
work and it's like what are yourpains and problems?
Nothing.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, that's what you want to hear, and they're like,
oh, this is awful.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
It's like, oh, my goodness, it takes a little bit
of bravery.
I've started much moreproactively soliciting client
feedback early on and quicklyknowing that it's just, that's
the way you get better RightJust actually solicit feedback,
honest feedback from everybody.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And this is something that you can build into your
discovery and onboarding process.
You can start to gather thiskind of slowly, so you do get
insights from people who aren'tworking with you yet or so early
in the relationship that theirpains are still very top of mind
.
So that's another way.
If you don't need to gather allthis information right now and
(25:23):
you're willing to just do itslowly, you can build in a
little follow-up question withpeople that have booked a
discovery call with you.
Or if they are booking adiscovery call with you, say
through Calendly or Acuity orsomething like that, you can ask
them a question why did youreach out to me right now?
And then you can start togather their answers.
This is their words, this iswhat they're looking for.
(25:45):
I'm going to use this in mymarketing.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yep, I call it insights interviews.
I'm a big advocate of it.
Back in 2016, I had my veryfirst financial advisor client,
did tremendous success with them, and then his producer group
wanted to know what's going onhere, and so they invited me to
speak, and this was my firsttime to really branch out beyond
this one individual who had agreat relationship with, I felt,
from his perspective.
I knew his challenges, but howrepresentative is that of
(26:09):
everybody else in terms of howthey think?
And before the speaking event,I had the opportunity to
interview the executive directorof the group, and this is a
couple hundred top performinginsurance producers and I asked
just for 30 minutes, and whatinvariably happens is that when
you ask people thoughtful, goodquestions, they're like oh no,
we have all the time in theworld.
Yeah, 90 minutes later, allrecorded, I still have it.
(26:34):
This is a guy that wasbasically the leader of these
200 plate people have been inthe industry forever, and so he
just dropped nugget after nuggetand that really informed me and
made me that much moreeffective when I went to that
speaking event and just reallyallowed me to really navigate
that much more quickly.
I'm a huge fan of what you'redescribing in that approach.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, and I will say too, coming from an academia and
research background, at firstit was uncomfortable for me
because I wanted the data to beperfect.
I wanted to make sure thatthere was a process that I was
following.
And, yes, those are good thingsto do, right, to make sure that
you are getting severalperspectives, but it doesn't
have to be so scientific thatyou don't do it at all If that's
(27:20):
a barrier for you.
Sometimes, just getting likethese small insights from asking
questions or from interviewingsomeone for 90 minutes, that can
give you a ton of great stuffto work with and a ton of
insight, I suppose, into yourmarket.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
It helps to solve what I see as one of the biggest
challenges that many peopleface is that too often we go to
market from a me perspective,meaning that as an advisor, I
want to promote X, y, z.
How do I make this compellingto the audience that I'm
promoting it to?
But it's fundamentally couchedin a me perspective, right?
The reason you need lifeinsurance, this is the reason
(27:58):
you need an annuity.
This is the reason you needmanaged money, whatever it is.
But it's too much from theirperspective and what, and so
it's fundamentally a disconnect,whereas when you do the
insights interview, what youlearn is how to approach it from
their perspective, the painsand the desires that they have
and what is the language thatthey use to describe that, and
(28:18):
then ultimately, what you do.
You want to connect it back towhat it is you do, but you want
to lead with their perspective,and it's not just copywriting.
What I've found is that I'vebeen a student of copywriting
for a while now, but the betteryou get at this, it just makes
your communication better.
So the better you get atwriting, the better you get at
speaking, the better you get atwhether it's in larger groups or
whether it's just one-on-oneand something that you do every
(28:40):
day.
As you sharpen the skills,everything gets that much more
effective.
For someone that's like I don'twant to be a copywriter or hire
someone.
Still, there's a process to itand it's understanding your
ideal clients, and I think, froma persuasion perspective,
nothing beats being able tounderstand the conversation that
your ideal client's having,because then, when you can start
asking questions andarticulating that and they're
naturally drawn out, that'swhere your conversions go from
(29:02):
wherever they are toskyrocketing.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Right.
As a former writing teacher, Ijust could not agree with you
more.
I think that there's so muchprocessing that happens when
you're writing these things thatit does bleed into the
conversations you're having withpeople and the emails that
you're writing to clients, orwriting your own content, at
least on one platform, or atleast for a few months, or
(29:26):
whatever it might be.
There's so much to be gainedfrom that, even if you don't
want to be a copywriterlong-term, which is totally fine
, but there are so many benefitsto just immersing yourself in
the writing for a time.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah, I guess, as we start to wrap up, that leads to
the question so when people workwith you, where is that balance
?
Do you do it for them?
Do you do it with them?
How do you help financialadvisors with their copywriting?
What's your approach as acompany?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So we do it with them .
Sometimes, depending on howmuch time the advisor has and
how involved they want to be,we'll do it for them, but I see
the most successful projectshappening when we do it with
them.
So, whether it's ongoingcontent that we're writing with
you for your email newslettersor your email sequences, or
whatever it might be, I need youto at least record a Loom video
(30:13):
for me with all of your wordvomit thoughts, and I can take
those and I can applycopywriting principles so that
your thoughts and your zone ofgenius and your knowledge will
connect and resonate with yourideal clients.
Some advisors prefer to speaktheir thoughts, which, honestly,
I really like because I thinkthe thoughts are richer.
Some advisors prefer to justgive bullet point lists, and
that's totally fine too.
(30:34):
It's all of your thoughts andall of your knowledge, but we
take it and we apply copywritingprinciples to it so that it
resonates emotionally.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Yeah, definitely.
I like the word vomit, yeah,yeah, that's my favorite
approach.
A couple more questions that Iwant to touch on.
Ebooks, my case I'm apublishing company, slash
marketing agency, the short bookformula.
We help people primarily createphysical books and, by
extension, we can have a Kindleversion, it can have a audiobook
(31:04):
version, etc.
But we start with really aphysical paperback book that's
generally typically 12,000 to25,000 words.
So when I hear ebook, I'mthinking, okay, it's like a
smaller, more concise book thatprobably someone can download as
a lead magnet.
So talk to me about what is anebook and what's the value of an
ebook for an advisor and, byextension, how does that, from
(31:28):
your perspective, is differentfrom more of a paperback book?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yep, so you're absolutely right.
The ebook really functions as alead magnet to build your email
list.
I usually recommend to advisorsabout a big ebook project and
he was asking me could this be arevenue driver?
Could I sell the ebook?
And my recommendation was Iwouldn't use it as that.
There's so many ebooks.
It's going to take so muchmarketing to sell an ebook right
(31:54):
, even if it's only $2.99 or$3.99, that I would rather you
give it away for free and buildyour email list so that you can
nurture the people on your emaillist into becoming clients or
down the road if you decide toturn your ebook into a physical
book, and now you have thisemail list and this audience of
people that you can email aboutthe physical book launch,
(32:16):
whenever that happens, this is agreat asset for your business.
So the ebook usually is muchshorter than a physical book
would be the longest ebookproject that I have worked on
with someone.
After it was designed it was 50pages long as a PDF and so
that's the longest that I'veworked on.
Usually I recommend they're alittle bit smaller, because you
(32:38):
do want your audience toactually download the ebook and
read the ebook so that they getsomething out of it.
They build that trust with you.
They want to keep coming backto you for more information,
things like that.
So another thing that I like todo with ebooks to make them more
engaging and more likely toactually be read is I like to
build in some interactive kindof workbook style either tasks
(33:00):
or reflections or action itemsor things like that so that it
becomes really engaging in thatway.
So I would say I know you cando that in a physical book as
well, and a lot of greatphysical business books do have
those components, but with anebook I think they're an
absolute must.
I think if you want people toactually open up that PDF, once
(33:20):
they download it and use it,you're going to give them some
things that they can reallyapply what you're talking about
in the ebook to their own lives.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
That's the idea behind the short book formula
with a physical book is thatultimately, in a similar way,
it's a book that can be readcover to cover and, I say,
within one to two hours.
The ebook, I think, is going tobe shorter than that.
But the whole philosophy behindwhat I do is that it does you
no good to write down this tomeof all the wisdom you've gained
over 20 years and 300 pages.
(33:51):
First of all, you'll never doit right.
Let's just be honest.
You're not going to do itunless after you retire.
Then it doesn't really servethe purpose of growing your
business.
And even if you did do it, theproblem is that very few people
are going to actually read itcover to cover.
And whether it's an e-book orwhether it's a short physical
book, I think we agree that thefundamental thing is that for it
(34:11):
to serve a purpose, it's toactually get your ideal reader,
slash, prospect, slash, clientto take the time to read it
cover to cover so that theyconsume the message.
I like the word pre-suited bythe message, because you're
pre-framing these things and sowhen they come talk to you,
they're like this is what Ithink You're like.
Huh, that just so happens tocorrespond with what I think
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yes, this is great.
Yes, I love that.
I think that somebody havingboth an ebook and a physical
book is actually a really smartstrategy, because you have a way
for people to get yourinformation for free and then,
if they really like what youhave to say, which hopefully
they do I want more informationfrom this person, so I'm going
to buy their actual book.
I wonder what's in their paidphysical book.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That's exactly right, and that's actually how I
create what's called a flip book, which is a version of an ebook
which is instead of a PDF.
It's a little flip thing thatpeople can do, but essentially
the reason we do it is that youcan use it as a lead magnet.
I just don't know how manypeople are going to actually sit
there and read it this way, andso that's where you need to
increase the odds of themconsuming the message, which is
(35:13):
physical books.
But then again, how many peopleread physical books?
People are more likely tolisten to you on a podcast
talking about your book, yes,than actually reading your book,
and then, if they're supermotivated and they're like, wow,
that was awesome, then they goread your book.
But it's just funny, right,because you think, well, do I do
podcasts, do I do books?
Do I do eBooks?
It's like, well, you know, whatyou need is a core message, yes
(35:35):
, that resonates, and then youjust need to get it out there as
many ways that people take thetime to consume the message so
that it can do its job.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
This is me from Science Friday on NPR.
When all these scientists aretalking about their books, I
feel like I know so much aboutyou and I have all these books
on my library hold list that I'mprobably never going to read,
but I love hearing people talkabout their books.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, so where can people learn more about you?
Speaker 2 (35:59):
One other thing that I will say about the eBooks is a
lot of times, if you'rethinking in your head, I think
I'd really like to write a booksomeday and you haven't found
Paul yet, which you will, ifyou're listening to me, it just
doesn't feel possible to you yetStart with an eBook, because I
think that can really lay thefoundation for what your book is
going to turn into, and it's alower lift for you to start kind
(36:20):
of experimenting with what youwant to say, what you want to
teach someone, what you wantyour message to be, without
committing to the full processof writing a full on book, and
you can write as many eBooks asyou want to right, you can write
an eBook and then the next year, discover something else and
you can write another eBook, andso it's a good way to play in
the process before committing toyour physical book that will
(36:43):
hopefully be an asset to yourbusiness for years.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
So now, of course, for self-interested reasons, I'm
going to say the opposite Startwith the paperback book.
Yes, either way is fine, yeahno, you're right though.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Either way is fine, and there's no one right way and
I think that's the beauty too,for advisors is whatever feels
like the lowest barrier to you,as long as you just get started
doing something.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
That'll agree on it Is that, whatever it is, you
need to do it.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Exactly.
Yeah Right, we should startsome office hours, paul.
But for anyone who wants tofind me, I'm always on LinkedIn.
My LinkedIn name is Hillary PGail Mia.
I'm on LinkedIn all the time.
My website is monetic copycomand I have a podcast called the
(37:32):
finance marketing podcast, so ifyou want to pop over there and
give it a listen, I have enjoyedthe conversation.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
It's always fun for me to geek out with a fellow
marketer for financial pros.
I've enjoyed the conversationand I hope our audience, if
they're still with us, wouldindicate that they enjoyed the
conversation.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Well, thank you so much for having me, Paul.
This was really fun.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
All right.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Bye, for now Bye.
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